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Link to Main Thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168641.0)
Hello, Commander. In light of the recent extraterrestrial incursion, this Council of Nations has convened to approve the activation of the XCOM Project.
You have been chosen to lead this initiative. To oversee our first—and last—line of defense.
Your efforts will have considerable influence on this planet's future. We urge you to keep that in mind as you proceed.
Good luck, Commander.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP
Equipment
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
XCOM Resources
5 VP
3 UP
3 EP
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Pah. Aliens are boring. Glory to XCOM!
Now lets get to the gene mods!
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Game Start :
Special Design Phase
During this special design phase, 2 proposals will be voted upon. 1 is an ordinary design phase proposal. The other is the location and nature of XCOM's secret main base. Whether you go for the tradition underground base or something else is your choice. The traditional design is rolled on 2d4, the base design is a guaranteed 6.
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OK, so formally joining humans.
So we roll 2d4 for...only the traditional design? And every other design is guaranteed a 6?
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You roll 2d4 for almost every design. Occassionally, I do special events with their own special rules. The one for this turn is an extra design restricted to a subject, but with a guaranteed roll.
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VIGILI CONFIDO
I shall join this superior side. Prepare to be graced with my magnificent designs in some undetermined period of time.
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Sorry, sleep deprivation (I sound like Nemonole...).
I meant "only for the traditional base design". As for the base design, well, a carrier might make for an interesting base. Tactical flexibility, built-in airfield, mobility, a lot of other ships almost certainly protecting it...
The regular design, well, ebbor, do we really not even have the most basic of infantry equipment right now?
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I shall join XCOM. More when I'm fully awake tomorrow.
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I meant "only for the traditional base design".
I'm not sure I understand the point of confusion, so I'll just re-iterate. Right now you're voting for
1 Design proposal that can be anything you want, and rolls 2d4
And
1 Design proposal for a base that is a guaranteed 6
The regular design, well, ebbor, do we really not even have the most basic of infantry equipment right now?
You have a access to every bit of conventional infantry equipment. I'm just not going to write those out. If you want a thing explicitedly added to the spoiler, ask.
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It would be nice if we had an assault rifle or carbine, sniper rifle, and handgun added. And possibly a grenade.
To make things simpler, I mean. So you can say "here's basically what you have and it's the best available" instead of us dithering over which modern AR or carbine or sniper is the "best" and begging to know why we couldn't just bring this gun or that gun.
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Ok, I'll add those when I'm not falling asleep.
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PTW
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What I want is... an underwater base.
Well, if the base roll is a 6 no matter how many penalties would be assigned, I want a base in another dimension that gives everyone inside of it magical powers. Seeing as that's probably not the case...
"Sunken Atlantis" Underwater Base:
Our base is in the ocean floor! Literally. It's not on the ocean floor, it's in the ocean floor. Basically, we have a large underground structure in the oceanic crust, and we use airlocks to dispatch and receive our ships. All the water and the layers of rock should make it pretty well concealed. Secondary technologies included in this design:
Underwater Comms: Radio communications that work underwater better.
Shark: Adaptations to our Raven and Skyranger that let them travel underwater. We may want to spend a dedicated design on this.
~~~
I like this because it's new. Basically, an old fashioned underground base or flying helicarrier base sounds boring to me. Because we've been there and done that!
The alternative is placing a base on the Moon, but the aliens would probably notice that.
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Who said anything about flying carriers?
I mean a literal aircraft carrier which, given our budget, would probably house our entire operational staff (Totally not a liability, but hey, at least it's not vulnerable to a single seismic event or thermobaric bomb strike, like any sort of underground base is).
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Yeah, but an underground underwater base is doubly protected by the massive layers of water and by being underground.
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COUNT ME IN!
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Getting in on this!
Voting for an aircraft carrier base, I think an underwater base is a bit too ambitious at the moment. Also, ebbor, what's the time period this is set in? I assume we have all the guns and other equipment that would be available to any other spec ops team, but what does that include? In 2017 we have recon drones that can fit in a backpack and battlefield AR HUDs, which would certainly be beyond a 1990s force.
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2017+
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To be clear. I will bail if discord is added. My apologies to those that make great use of it, but for someone who doesn't, that was the appeal of this AR.
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What do you have against Discord?
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Honestly I don't like discord that much myself, but when I see an ultimatum feeling thingy like that I suddenly start feeling a lot more supportive of it. Weird how people's minds work, isn't it?
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What do you have against Discord?
The problem is simple. You either join discord or you don't and then you may as well not play the game because all important decisions are made in discord. You don't even know why people vote that way or another and just see one snowball voting after another.
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The problem is simple. You either join discord or you don't and then you may as well not play the game because all important decisions are made in discord. You don't even know why people vote that way or another and just see one snowball voting after another.
That's not really my experience at all. I put off joining the discords for the arms races I've been participating in for weeks and I can confidently state that it did not make any difference.
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Creates a potential communication gap where not everyone knows what has been said, a forum game's primary communication method should be the forum.
Anyway, HQ and its initial location and form:
Although a sailing command (such as an aircraft carrier) does allow us to move our forces almost everywhere, we cannot use the Suez or Panama Canals (too easy to catch us where we cannot defend ourselves) and the Mediterranean is a dangerous place for such a task force because they could just park a dreadnought over Gibraltar and pin us down.
An undersea command would make us hard to attack but we would need amphibious aircraft and make sure all our weapons can be used underwater and on land, plus we would need to redesign RADAR to work under deep water or rely entirely on local forces providing RADAR coverage.
A Flying base has the problem of being extremely visible but wouldn't have the issues of a sailing base, probably would have other issues too.
A conventional under-mountain base would be pretty straight forward while still being tough to crack open and hard to spot, the fixed location doesn't matter if we place it where it can cover the most funding nations (such as under the Alps or Greece's mountains).
Therefore I suggest a conventional underground base under the Greek/Macedonian mountains.
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This isn't TFTD(yet), I say we go something above the water.
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The thing about Discord is that it doesn't create a potential communications gap. It just increases convenience. I've played Wands Race before and after it had a Discord, and other games. People wordlessly vote regardless of Discord. I've seen plenty of wordless votes in Battle for Aljadid without that person even being on Discord.
On BFA the primary communications method is still the forum. On Wands Race the primary communications method was still the forum. Discord just allowed for the game to move faster as 1-on-1 arguments can easily be made quickly (rather than waiting over the course of days via PMs or spamming the thread), quick questions to the GM can be asked (that would never be asked if there was no Discord), and voting is quicker.
If we do an underwater base, we should still include access to the surface somehow. Like others have said, we'd have to make all our aircraft amphibious. That's a severe engineering+technological+practical challenge.
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Just add an elevator to the base maybe? It stucks up out of the water to launch stuff/let stuff land, and then goes back under water afterwards to hide again when not in use.
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Just add an elevator to the base maybe? It stucks up out of the water to launch stuff/let stuff land, and then goes back under water afterwards to hide again when not in use.
I think people wanted their undersea base to be under the actual sea, not just a short way offshore, and a two kilometre long telescoping elevator might be a little much even for xcom
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Yeah, to clarify a few things.
The guaranteed 6 on the base roll is before modifiers. Be carefull. If you propose a base on Pluto, you'll fail.
Also, you also have to propose a regular design of some sort.
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Design:Magnetic Mass Driver "Magnos"
By using a series of conductive coils, a modified aircraft could be catapulted all the way from the bottom of the ocean into the air with surprising results.
Aircraft are specially modified for this purpose, and given a disposable magnetic fearing to survive the trip, and a optimized system could even send satellite payloads high enough that a suborbital trajectory could be reached.
Base: TRAWLER (Tactical Re-locked Atlantian War Lexicon with Energy Reactors)If anyone has a better name/acronym Im willing to change it please)
Simply put, a massive air craft carrier sized command vehicle, designed to trawl along the surface of the ocean, feeding on the sea bad as it passes by to power it's reactor, and to sift out materials required for day-to-day operations. It is completely self sufficient in terms of life support, while able to support over 5,000 personnel. As it is right now, it is half built, with most of the life support systems turned disabled, as it only supports the skeleton crew of 700, along with tactical command and certain amounts of the various non essential personnel that has came aboard. It comes with liquid fuel Hydrogen powered rockets, for when it needs to leave the ground and manuver in the waters, while also equipped with special baloons so it can quickly resurface. Specially placed Communication "Probes" along the surface of the ocean allow it to communicate with the rest of the world without revealing its position.
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
TRAWLER(1):Blood Librarian
Magnos(1):Blood_Librarian
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I play forum games to have fun. No this is not the beginning of some argument about Discord. Simply this is an argument for water bases. When I was a kid I used to draw little doodles of bisections of underwater bases. So that's totally me I got to go with water bases!
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EDIT: Got ninja'd, this is referring to BL's post, not roseheart's.
That....is not going to work, at all. A deep undersea base is impossible, no matter how advanced our tech---we'd still need more bases in order to launch aircraft and sorties.
An undersea rail or coilgun is impossible. You're going to produce a diamagnetic effect in the water inside and outside of the coilgun, which is going to put ENORMOUS pressure on both your payload and the coilgun's barrel, almost certainly enough to destroy the mechanism, certainly more than we can manage to build with the tech we have.
Don't you DARE suggest a coilgun with no water in the barrel---you'll destroy ANY payload as soon as it hits the water (Unless it's protruding all the way above the ocean's surface from the seabed, which is impossible for its own set of reasons). And please don't tell me you think we can fire an aircraft out of a coilgun, please? Rail/coilgun payloads tend to deform on impact with the air for a REASON, and we can't engineer an aircraft tough enough to survive that, even with a faring/sabot-style canister.
To the earlier objections: If the aliens leave a dreadnought parked over Gibraltar they're going to get hit by missiles from across Western Europe. Conventional cruise missiles at first, and if those don't make it go away I would be surprised if the nuclear armaments aren't unleashed.
So, for the base:
UNS Sentinel
We need mobility, protection, firepower, and space. A nuclear-powered aircraft carrier happens to have all of those in spades. Basically a modified Nimitz-class nuclear supercarrier upgraded to the most modern spec possible, the Sentinel will indeed be the first line of defense. Accompanied by a small fleet of escort vessels and tenders, loaded with anti-aircraft and anti-surface-vessel weaponry and a healthy contingent of modified ballistic-missile-interceptor missiles (Fast enough t shoot down an ICBM that's travelling at max velocity), the Sentinel will be capable of deterring any hostiles from landing in a specific theater (i.e., by shooting them down on the way in with a set of interceptor missiles), while deploying infantry missions to any other theaters.
Our first design, um, yeah, I have things I need to get done, I'll post...something, if nobody else has taken the initiative (HINT, HINT) and pulled up something we might use.
On the list of things we might want: Superior training first and foremost. Our guys need to be capable of determining the optimal use of action points attacking and withdrawing with maximum efficiency, interacting with civilians, and generally being basically nothing more or less than SAS or SEALs, at least.
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Nautilus submarine base
First X-COM base is a large nuclear aircraft carrier submarine. It is the largest submarine ever built with its own runaway and hangars for several aircrafts adapted to launch from it. It also has a plenty of living room, large storage area, workshop and laboratory. Finally, it is equipped with state of art ground to air missiles.
Japan did carrier sumbarines in WW2, we can do the same but far better. It is far less vulnerable than surface carrier.
Swordfish
Swordfish is a light submergible vessel. Designed to act as a stealthy alternative to delivering soldiers via aircraft. It is limited to shores, it is far slower than transport aircrafts, but it can carry heavier equipment and more soldiers and it is far harder to detect both by the enemy and civilians
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
TRAWLER(1):Blood Librarian
Nautilus (1): Strongpoint
Magnos(1):Blood_Librarian
Swordfish (1) Strongpoint
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I would handwave it with non-Newtonian crash gel capsule that releases the aircraft once they are free of water, but the Nautilus sounds cooler.
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
TRAWLER(0):
Nautilus (1): Strongpoint, Blood Librarian
Magnos(0):
Swordfish (2) Strongpoint, Blood_librarian
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Since when do we get to just HANDWAVE the LAWS of PHYSICS?
Sorry, but we have MODERN tech right now.
YOU! SHALL NOT! Get rid of the laws of physics that easily.
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(https://i.imgur.com/qWVlaik.jpg)
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I like Strongpoint's Nautilus but I feel that it could use some changes.
Base Design: Nautilus Submarine Base - Variant B
(Variant A, for reference:)Nautilus submarine base
First X-COM base is a large nuclear aircraft carrier submarine. It is the largest submarine ever built with its own runaway and hangars for several aircrafts adapted to launch from it. It also has a plenty of living room, large storage area, workshop and laboratory. Finally, it is equipped with state of art ground to air missiles.
Japan did carrier submarines in WW2, we can do the same but far better. It is far less vulnerable than surface carrier.
The Variant B is largely the same as the Variant A. However, it is equipped with no ground to air missiles - we feel that it'd distract too much from the focus of the design and wouldn't be ever useful against any alien spacecraft designed to attack our main base. It has plenty of space for cargo and future expansion, and its runways' and hangars' numbers and size are extensive though it must of course surface to launch and receive aircraft. It also has the capability to act as a mothership for smaller submarines. It should be capable of going very deep underwater and staying underwater for extended periods of time. Speed is to be sacrificed to keep the difficulty low - cargo and logistics and the like would be handled by boats/submarines/aircraft/whatever moving things between the Nautilus and other bases, while the Nautilus stays deep in the sea.
If the exact location is a concern, it should be put in the Atlantic sea for easier access to both the Americas, Europe, Africa, while not being cut off from Asia and Australia.
Or in other words, our base is a very giant carrier-submarine in the Atlantic.
Design: Tactical Awareness Visor
Designed to be able to be equipped by itself or embedded in any helmet, the TAV is an Augmented Reality HUD for our troops.
Using numerous small cameras - such as infrared, visible, and the like - combined with a small integrated computer, the TAV can help our operatives' awareness in the field. The main use is target recognition. Through heat, shape, and more interesting techniques like looking for pulses, the TAV can very reliable detect anything it judges as a living or relevant entity. These entities are highlighted based on familiarity - fellow operatives get green (no rookies shooting other rookies), humans get blue, unknowns get yellow, and confirmed threats get red. In addition to very easy recognizing of targets, the varied cameras ensure that it works regardless of visibility - NO MORE NIGHT MISSIONS the aliens can't hide in the dark.
It also has other functions deemed relevant like current mission objective, the status of any networked devices (like "ammo in gun"), radio status, and anything else deemed relevant. But the main feature is target recognition and highlighting, which should greatly help in any case; especially against a stealthy and unknown foe.
TL;DR: An augmented reality HUD that highlights targets+allies in different colors and has some other miscellaneous functions. Open for improvement in the future too.
((References: MS HoloLens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_HoloLens) - A commercial - and very cheap relative to us - AR device; Automated Target Recognition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_target_recognition) - just general info on target recognition stuff; Kinect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinect) - Not AR, but is also commercial, "reliably" recognizes humans, can sense pulses through the skin, skeletal recognition, and more all while being a fraction of the price of even the HoloLens; and more. The ideas of "target recognition" and "augmented reality HUD" are already fairly present in modern culture and civilian+military tech.))
BASE DESIGN
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
TRAWLER (0):
Nautilus (2): Strongpoint, Blood Librarian
Nautilus Variant B (1): Chiefwaffles
REGULAR DESIGN
Magnos (0):
Swordfish (2) Strongpoint, Blood_librarian
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
The Variant B is more-or-less the same thing as the original but without the missiles. We can design proper ones later or just use actual interceptor craft, but putting missiles in the design is going to add to difficulty without ever being useful. The rest of it is just things which I feel are assumed by most but I personally wanted to make more clear so we don't miss anything when Ebbor does the design.
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Island Undersea Mountain
(see my previous post for drawing)
The benefits of the underground base, with the flare of an undersea base. Deep see vents offer power. The "island" offers access to send intercepters via a secret hatch. Overall more secure than a typical underground base- threats must come from the water, or from the top. An assault is either clumsy or predictable.
Addit: Also we can send sea vessels.
BASE DESIGN
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
Trawler (0):
Nautilus (2): Strongpoint, Blood Librarian
Nautilus Variant B (1): Chiefwaffles
Island Undersea Mtn. (1): roseheart
REGULAR DESIGN
Magnos (0):
Swordfish (2) Strongpoint, Blood_librarian
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
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BASE DESIGN
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
Trawler (0):
Nautilus (2): Strongpoint, Blood Librarian
Nautilus Variant B (1): Chiefwaffles
Island Undersea Mtn. (2): roseheart, ☼Another☼
REGULAR DESIGN
Magnos (0):
Swordfish (3) Strongpoint, Blood_librarian, ☼Another
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
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I'm very confused by the Swordfish.
Swordfish
Swordfish is a light submergible vessel. Designed to act as a stealthy alternative to delivering soldiers via aircraft. It is limited to shores, it is far slower than transport aircrafts, but it can carry heavier equipment and more soldiers and it is far harder to detect both by the enemy and civilians
It's slower and can only head to shores. Much slower, since it's a submarine versus "the world's first supersonic troop transport". And we'd be spending our first design - arguably a very important design in deciding how the game starts - on this. Our objective as XCOM is largely a reactive one - if we suddenly downgrade our transport craft to one that has a severely limited range of "only the shores of the sea it was launched from" with a severely worse speed, we destroy that role. If the aliens land anywhere that isn't a beach next to our specific sea, the design is useless.
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Normal Operations and Tasking Special Operator Field Training
The NOTSOFT training regimen is every bit as harsh as the most advanced special forces training programs out there, meant to weed out the weak and harden the strong into something capable of breaking aliens over their knees with nothing more than their bare hands. We promise that this is no exaggeration. Including firearm, CQC, vehicle, and basic medical training, NOTSOFT will provide the fighting edge that we will need to take down alien invaders.
BASE DESIGN
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
Trawler (0):
Nautilus (2): Strongpoint, Blood Librarian
Nautilus Variant B (1): Chiefwaffles
Island Undersea Mtn. (2): roseheart, ☼Another☼
UNS Sentinel (1): Madman
REGULAR DESIGN
Magnos (0):
Swordfish (2) Strongpoint, Blood_librarian
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
NOTSOFT (1): Madman
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I think Swordfish is a good start for Port Attacks and further underwater stuff if they go TFTD. But we could also go into laser weapons or stunning weapons.
Also, Madman, my vote for swordfish isn't counted in your vote counter.
BASE DESIGN
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
Trawler (0):
Nautilus (2): Strongpoint, Blood Librarian
Nautilus Variant B (1): Chiefwaffles
Island Undersea Mtn. (2): roseheart, ☼Another☼
UNS Sentinel (1): Madman
REGULAR DESIGN
Magnos (0):
Swordfish (2) Strongpoint, Blood_librarian,
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
NOTSOFT (1): Madman
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...but this isn't TFTD. The Swordfish is a counter to a nonexistent strategy. If the alien side doesn't go underwater - and they probably won't - then it's actually useless. And better yet, here's the relevant sites, taken from the OP:
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil
Note how none of them are underwater. So even if the aliens do go underwater, we don't need a submarine to counter their attacks. If the aliens attack the surface - and they have to if they want to win the game - the Skyranger will be better than any submarine.
And even if making our stuff work underwater was a viable option, designing a submarine as our first design is not the way to do it. Watch:
Revision: Skyranger Submersion
By making sure the Skyranger is completely airtight and increasing its pressure resistance, we can get it to work underwater! Not nearly as fast of course, but the Skyranger can just fly over the underwater site, then go down. Overall a faster trip than any submarine.
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Submarine or underground island base both sound good for me. As for the normal design, I really don't see the need for the Swordfish so I'm gonna vote for the 'oh god keep us from having only rookies' training upgrade.
BASE DESIGN
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
Trawler (0):
Nautilus (2): Strongpoint, Blood Librarian
Nautilus Variant B (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
Island Undersea Mtn. (2): roseheart, ☼Another☼, Happerry
UNS Sentinel (1): Madman
REGULAR DESIGN
Magnos (0):
Swordfish (2) Strongpoint, Blood_librarian,
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
NOTSOFT (2): Madman, Happerry
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BASE DESIGN
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
Trawler (0):
Nautilus (2): Strongpoint, Blood Librarian
Nautilus Variant B (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
Island Undersea Mtn. (2): roseheart, ☼Another☼, Happerry
UNS Sentinel (1): Madman
REGULAR DESIGN
Magnos (0):
Swordfish (2) Strongpoint, Blood_librarian,
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
NOTSOFT (3): Madman, Happerry, ☼Another☼
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I would really highly recommend adding something to the island base to make it different (And more usable)---a lengthy airfield (So we can deploy larger aircraft), an extinct volcano (With magma tubes for extensive base-building), etc.
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I would really highly recommend adding something to the island base to make it different (And more usable)---a lengthy airfield (So we can deploy larger aircraft), an extinct volcano (With magma tubes for extensive base-building), etc.
An extinct volcano sounds interesting for the inside of it or maybe one that's inactive. I did mention heat vents for energy. However the top should look completely abandoned. And it should also have as much sensory blocking insulation as possible to hide its' location.
Also as a general statement I'm thinking that we should not focus on sea vessels right now, we don't want to get "sea things" in their mind early on and giving them that impression of where our base is. So in the beginning right now I will support other kinds of plans such as interceptors and troop equipment.
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I mean, the thing is that if we DO use a carrier, we can fake interceptor and troop transport launches, make it look as if they're coming from a myriad of bases across the planet.
However, eventually they'll be able to gather enough directional data to determine where a more conventional, immobile base is, and then we'll probably start seeing strikes against such bases, just to inconvenience us if nothing else.
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+1 to the volcano idea.
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Island Volcano
(https://i.imgur.com/1Qz5XiJ.jpg)
- Interceptors can be launched from the volcano opening. They can follow the smoke cloud for miles and stay concealed within it.
- Thermal energy sources abundantly available.
- Enemies can only come from water or mouth. (must specialize or be obvious)
- Appears as an uninhabited island. Made of minerals that inhibit detection, as does a membrane envelope outside any rooms built.
- Fabulous.
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BASE DESIGN
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
Trawler (0):
Nautilus (1): Blood Librarian
Nautilus Variant B (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint
Island Undersea Mtn. (3): roseheart, ☼Another☼, Happerry
UNS Sentinel (1): Madman
REGULAR DESIGN
Magnos (0):
Swordfish (2) Strongpoint, Blood_librarian,
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
NOTSOFT (3): Madman, Happerry, ☼Another☼
Changing vote to a better worded submarine. Blood_librarian, you should do the same to avoid vote splitting
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BASE DESIGN
Sunken Atlantis(1):Urist
Trawler (0):
Nautilus (1): Blood Librarian
Nautilus Variant B (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint
Island Undersea Mtn. (4): roseheart, ☼Another☼, Happerry, Cnidaros
UNS Sentinel (1): Madman
REGULAR DESIGN
Magnos (0):
Swordfish (2) Strongpoint, Blood_librarian,
Tactical Awareness Visor (2): Chiefwaffles, Cnidaros
NOTSOFT (3): Madman, Happerry, ☼Another☼
I feel like a submarine aircraft carrier with multiple runways and hangars, as well as submarine docking capability and cargo space with room for expansion(??), along with deep dive ability which needs a thick pressure hull, is kinda unrealistic. Voting for the island underground base, though the Sentinel is also acceptable.
Also, while the NOTSOFT has a great acronym, I think the focus of Arms Race should be on designing tech and weapons, not training programmes. We don't even know the quality of our troops yet!
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BASE DESIGN
Sunken Atlantis(0):
Trawler (0):
Nautilus (1): Blood Librarian
Nautilus Variant B (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint
Island Undersea Mtn. (5): roseheart, ☼Another☼, Happerry, FallacyofUrist, Cnidaros
UNS Sentinel (1): Madman
REGULAR DESIGN
Magnos (0):
Swordfish (3) Strongpoint, Blood_librarian, FallacyofUrist
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
NOTSOFT (3): Madman, Happerry, ☼Another☼
Changing vote to something close to what I want but more likely to succeed.
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Also, while the NOTSOFT has a great acronym, I think the focus of Arms Race should be on designing tech and weapons, not training programmes. We don't even know the quality of our troops yet!
We kinda do. This is in the first post under 'Starting Tech'.
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
So basically we're starting with rookie spam.
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BASE DESIGN
Sunken Atlantis(0):
Trawler (0):
Nautilus Variant B (4): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian
Island Undersea Mtn. (5): roseheart, ☼Another☼, Happerry, FallacyofUrist, Cnidaros
UNS Sentinel (1): Madman
REGULAR DESIGN
Magnos (0):
Swordfish (2) Strongpoint, FallacyofUrist
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
NOTSOFT (4): Madman, Happerry, ☼Another☼, Blood_librarian
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XCOM Design Turn
The benefits of the underground base, with the flare of an undersea base. Deep see vents offer power. The "island" offers access to send intercepters via a secret hatch. Overall more secure than a typical underground base- threats must come from the water, or from the top. An assault is either clumsy or predictable.
Island Undersea Mtn. (5): roseheart, ☼Another☼, Happerry, FallacyofUrist, Cnidaros
Guaranteed Roll : 6
Dug into the side of a small island mountain, XCOM's HQ is both secure and secluded. Integrated geothermal generators, local workshops and extensive storehouses keep the supply chain to an absolute minimum, preventing an obvious and easily detectable pattern of supply vessels. What little essential supplies that need to be delivered are brought in by submarine, via a hidden underwater dock.
Above ground, the HQ appears to be an almost completely deserted island. The only visible manmade structure is an old satellite relay station, now refurbished to give XCOM an eye on the sky. All other signs of inhabitation have either been hidden underground or hidden completely. Only an in depth survey of the entire island will reveal the multitude of ventilation shafts, missile defense batteries and big hangar exit hatches that have been hidden in the terrain
Note : Location of base unspecified : please resolve.
Note 2 : To be honest, I didn't really know what to make of this design. Are you creating a tiny artificial island as a way of concealing an access shaft to an underwater base, or are you digging an underground base into an island. I don't know.
This is an Arms Race game, not pictionary.
NOTSOFT (4): Madman, Happerry, ☼Another☼, Blood_librarian
Normal Operations and Tasking Special Operator Field Training
The NOTSOFT training regimen is every bit as harsh as the most advanced special forces training programs out there, meant to weed out the weak and harden the strong into something capable of breaking aliens over their knees with nothing more than their bare hands. We promise that this is no exaggeration. Including firearm, CQC, vehicle, and basic medical training, NOTSOFT will provide the fighting edge that we will need to take down alien invaders.
Normal Difficulty : 1 + 2 = 3 (Buggy mess)
Combining elements from the world harshest and most elite special force training programs, the NOTSOFT program is meant to find and train the Elite of the elite. Then take those guys, put them through grueling tests, discard most of them, and keep only the best of the best of the best. It's a very impressive sales pitch, but the result is decidedly less so.
The primary issue is that the program is simply dangerous. Injuries, even permanent ones, occur regularly, and many of those who go through the course and fail leave XCOM permanently. Only a select few make it through the course unharmed, and even then the experience often makes them request transfer immediately. Worst of all, the program is not getting the results it should. Our instructors focus on harshness and difficulty appears to have compromised the training aspects, and while the soldiers still outperform our normal Rookies, they do not reach the improvements we expected.
Our experts at the Officer school advise to suspend implementation of the program till the curriculum can be revised. They also suggest that in future programs, greater results could be attained through specialization of soldiers into distinct tactical roles.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP
Equipment
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFT training regimen : The harshest of harsh training regimes. Provides forces with a wide variety of skills, as well as injuries and trauma's. Less than effective due to high fail rates and a focus on harshness over training. Cost : 3 Unit Points.
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island]
5 VP
3 UP
3 EP
You have now entered the revision phase.
AABBCCDD
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Hum, I don't think this would work for a revision, but I'm going to write this down so it's around when the next design phase comes through.
Breacher Training
Taking into account the advice from the experts to specialize training into distinct tactical roles, Breacher Training shall be designed to train specialized close combat operatives, armed with a shotgun and trained with grenades, given light armor to maximize their mobility and diligently drilled in the arts of breaking and entering, close ranged firefights, fighting inside structures, use of combat knives and or short ranged stun devices, and generally all the other little niggling things one needs to be good at kicking the doors down and blowing up every enemy you find behind them.
For our actual revision... Dunno. Try revising the NOTSOFT to focus less on harshness and more on training? Honestly the main thing I was hoping for it was to let people skip past rookie and go into squaddie immediantly, ala the New Guy training from the Officer school in NuCom. It's not doing that yet, but I can see it doing that, specially if we actually get any specialist training programs up.
Edit : As for the base, I thought we were going with the hollowed out island that is probably an extinct volcano for extra coolness factor? Well, what we got was pretty good and I have no complaints.
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For our actual revision... Dunno. Try revising the NOTSOFT to focus less on harshness and more on training? Honestly the main thing I was hoping for it was to let people skip past rookie and go into squaddie immediantly, ala the New Guy training from the Officer school in NuCom. It's not doing that yet, but I can see it doing that, specially if we actually get any specialist training programs up.
Maybe focus more on giving experience than getting them used to war, and less of them being the best of the best of the best, sir!
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Honestly, I'd kinda prefer to not touch it this turn, and then when we actually have some alien data in game revise it into a program that teaches all our new people about all the dastardly alien tricks and how to fight them. IE, less taking already trained people and training them more, and more 'this is our enemy, they are not like fighting humans, but here is how we fight them anyway'.
But I don't think that we have the data to do that yet, in game wise? Well, if we could revise it into some sort of 'Alien Warfare Acclimatization Program' that'd probably get my vote.
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But I don't think that we have the data to do that yet, in game wise? Well, if we could revise it into some sort of 'Alien Warfare Acclimatization Program' that'd probably get my vote.
+1 to that. Next topic is where our base is. I say the Aegean islands so that we cover a bunch of funding European nations.
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Note 2 : To be honest, I didn't really know what to make of this design. Are you creating a tiny artificial island as a way of concealing an access shaft to an underwater base, or are you digging an underground base into an island. I don't know.
This is an Arms Race game, not pictionary.
I think the island/volcano(?) theme is enough.
The rest can be typical digging XCOM:EU.
Bermuda Triangle, US
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So considering it's Enemy Unknown and my much better idea didn't get through, we really still need some form of intelligence.
Revision: Aerial Reconnaissance
Our important funding nations should have a hearty stockpile of military drones. "Drones" as in those remote-controlled airplanes with extensive cameras and sometimes weapons. Not the quadrocoptors.
With these precautions in place, we can ask the nearest nation with an available drone (without weapons, of course) to send one to patrol over the area and provide HQ with a constant camera feed of the site. No special effort required by us - just asking them and uplinking the feed. Then we can use the feed to advise our soldiers about potential threats. We'll always have an eye in the sky.
REVISION
Breacher Training (0):
Aerial Reconnaissance (1): Chiefwaffles
BASE LOCATION
Aegean Islands (1): ☼Another☼
Bermuda Triangle, US (1): roseheart
Mid-Atlantic (1): Chiefwaffles
And regarding base location, the Bermuda Triangle limits us to basically just the Americas and Aegean Islands to Europe and Africa. I think we should just go with a nice "middle atlantic" to give us access to the Americas, Europe, and Africa. Though while I don't think range is a huge issue (Skyranger), we should still maximize our access to the world.
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Note : Location of base unspecified : please resolve.
Note 2 : To be honest, I didn't really know what to make of this design. Are you creating a tiny artificial island as a way of concealing an access shaft to an underwater base, or are you digging an underground base into an island. I don't know.
+1 to Bermuda Triangle.
We're using an actual island as an access shaft to an underground underwater(a base dug under the seafloor) base.
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We're using an actual island as an access shaft to an underground underwater(a base dug under the seafloor) base.
Exactly.
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REVISION
Breacher Training (0):
Aerial Reconnaissance (2): Chiefwaffles, Cnidaros
BASE LOCATION
Aegean Islands (2): ☼Another☼, Cnidaros
Bermuda Triangle, US (2): roseheart, FallacyOfUrist
Mid-Atlantic (1): Chiefwaffles
Going with the Aegean islands because I always put my base in the Alps or Crete in the original X-COM. The Americas can just wait for us to get round to digging a base there sometime.
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REVISION
Breacher Training (0):
Aerial Reconnaissance (2): Chiefwaffles, Cnidaros
BASE LOCATION
Aegean Islands (3): ☼Another☼, Cnidaros, Khan Boyzitbig
Bermuda Triangle, US (2): roseheart, FallacyOfUrist
Mid-Atlantic (1): Chiefwaffles
Going with the Aegean islands because I always put my base in the Alps or Crete in the original X-COM. The Americas can just wait for us to get round to digging a base there sometime.
Should be possible to cover a bit of India from there too.
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REVISION
Breacher Training (0):
Aerial Reconnaissance (3): Chiefwaffles, Cnidaros, Blood_Librarian
BASE LOCATION
Aegean Islands (3): ☼Another☼, Cnidaros, Khan Boyzitbig
Bermuda Triangle, US (2): roseheart, FallacyOfUrist
Mid-Atlantic (2): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian
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REVISION
Breacher Training (0):
Aerial Reconnaissance (4): Chiefwaffles, Cnidaros, Blood_Librarian, roseheart
BASE LOCATION
Aegean Islands, France, Europe (3): ☼Another☼, Cnidaros, Khan Boyzitbig
Bermuda Triangle, United States, North America (2): roseheart, FallacyOfUrist
Mid-Atlantic, Nigeria, Africa (2): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian
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Um, yeah, this is going to be interesting.
So, I think we SHOULD revise our training program to, well, match original specifications, because we have a choice of sending in the rookiest rookies that ever got used as meatshields, or we can send in a bunch of hardened killers with modern weaponry and devices.
NOTSOFT Enhanced Retention (NOTSOFTER)
By borrowing a few SAS, SEAL, and yes, even a couple Spetsnaz trainers, we hope to bring our program up to its original specifications. The apparent focus on brutality is to be discarded for a focus on efficiency and training value. Instead of raw brutality, we will have hard training regimens with a purpose. Also, there's no reason for permanent injuries in a reasonable training regimen. Whatever weird thing is causing those, we got rid of it. Strained muscles and bruises are to be expected, even broken bones if, for example, a soldier screws up a wall-climb exercise. However, it should not be so traumatic as to permanently debilitate them, that's just ridiculous.
We can send in noobs or we can send in the SAS, I definitely know which group of guys I'm using for my small-team mission(s).
REVISION
Breacher Training (0):
Aerial Reconnaissance (4): Chiefwaffles, Cnidaros, Blood_Librarian, roseheart
NOTSOFTER (1): Madman
BASE LOCATION
Aegean Islands, France, Europe (3): ☼Another☼, Cnidaros, Khan Boyzitbig
Bermuda Triangle, United States, North America (2): roseheart, FallacyOfUrist
Mid-Atlantic, Nigeria, Africa (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, Madman
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+1
But I keep thinking all caps propositions are a category..
REVISION
Breacher Training (0):
Aerial Reconnaissance (4): Chiefwaffles, Cnidaros, Blood_Librarian, roseheart
N.O.T.S.O.F.T.E.R. (2): Madman, roseheart
BASE LOCATION
Aegean Islands, France, Europe (3): ☼Another☼, Cnidaros, Khan Boyzitbig
Bermuda Triangle, United States, North America (2): roseheart, FallacyOfUrist
Mid-Atlantic, Nigeria, Africa (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, Madman
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It's just acronyms :P
The more bureaucratic/government-related the AR, the more acronyms we come up with for designs.
Also, you're now voting for TWO things in the same category, which you can't do. You need to vote either for Aerial Reconnaissance or NOTSOFTER.
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Is that true GM?
Can I only vote for one project? I would think that just whichever project has the most votes wins If it it's not allocated to all voted projects.
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The reason you can't is because it makes no logical sense---you're voting for both projects, and thus you're not actually voting for either of them, your vote is meaningless, it just makes the votebox larger.
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If we're gonna do a special training program, we should actually specialize them into castes for war.
You know, heavies, shooters, hackers, etc.
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Not yet. First we ought to nail down "Everybody's good enough at everything, as well as being amazing at standard soldier things".
THEN we can say "Oh this guy's now a specialized medic, this guy is the machinegunner, that guy is marksman (An "assault" class is garbage, you either pin the enemy down or you hit them precisely and kill them, you don't try to do both), that guy is the sniper, look there's the combat engineer/tank-wrecker.
But again, let's first see how the enemy is going to fight, then we'll worry about the organization of classes best suited to countering that.
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Or you know, we can do both those things at once
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Is that true GM?
Can I only vote for one project? I would think that just whichever project has the most votes wins If it it's not allocated to all voted projects.
I'm very lenient with how you vote. As long as you don't murder each other about it, and it's clear and easy for me to understand, it's fine. So, your kind of approval voting is tentatively okay.
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Well OK then, nonstandard voting. Prepare for interesting, I guess?
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REVISION
Breacher Training (0):
Aerial Reconnaissance (4): Chiefwaffles, Cnidaros, Blood_Librarian, roseheart, Happerry
N.O.T.S.O.F.T.E.R. (2): Madman, roseheart
BASE LOCATION
Aegean Islands, France, Europe (3): ☼Another☼, Cnidaros, Khan Boyzitbig, Happerry
Bermuda Triangle, United States, North America (2): roseheart, FallacyOfUrist
Mid-Atlantic, Nigeria, Africa (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, Madman
I voted for two options last vote and no one complained...
Really, just vote on what you like and things should turn out ok.
If we're gonna do a special training program, we should actually specialize them into castes for war.
You know, heavies, shooters, hackers, etc.
I kinda did something based on the Assault class from NuCom in my breacher program suggestion... though with added grenades. Still better to do that in a design then a revision I think though.
(An "assault" class is garbage, you either pin the enemy down or you hit them precisely and kill them, you don't try to do both)
There's room for a shotgunner expert, specially with the need to breach hostile UFOs. Even in actual NuCom, you specialized them beyond trying to do all things at once, that's why they had two trees of skills not just one. Though I think NuCom 2's Ranger might be a better starting point.
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I meant the bog-standard "Rifleman"/"Assault" class, not a shotgunner (Who I've usually seen referred to as an Operator anyway).
Anyways, as a general rule the only reason you have a special "class" of soldier is if the thing he's going prevents him from also shooting enemies. For instance: Machinegunners can't really also carry a rifle, so they are a special "class" (In modern US military doctrine). The officer, though? He's a rifleman. The medic? He also has a rifle. Shotguns? Yeah, there's shotguns, but they're underbarrel or carried as an extra weapon, usually. Grenades? Everybody's got grenades. Enemy has tanks? You've got a Javelin spread out across your squad, but they've all still got their rifles.
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The reason you can't is because it makes no logical sense---you're voting for both projects, and thus you're not actually voting for either of them, your vote is meaningless, it just makes the votebox larger.
You are absolutely correct. Or you would be if there were not three options or I were voting for all three.
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I mean, the third option's there, but it has no votes, and so doesn't especially count as a contender right now.
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But again, let's first see how the enemy is going to fight, then we'll worry about the organization of classes best suited to countering that.
I disagree I feel we should have take the initiative. We want them to be catching up with us not the other way around.
In fact I feel like we should consider how we can take down UFOs while they're still in the sky, and maybe strike out in space.
The offense is to improve our interceptors now. Any good plans?
It seems like we're mostly at a consensus on our decisions for this round. So I will do my part to push it over.
I guess France gets a chance to be badass this time around.
REVISION
Breacher Training (0):
Aerial Reconnaissance (4): Chiefwaffles, Cnidaros, Blood_Librarian, roseheart, Happerry
N.O.T.S.O.F.T.E.R. (2): Madman, roseheart
BASE LOCATION
Aegean Islands, France, Europe (4): ☼Another☼, Cnidaros, Khan Boyzitbig, Happerry, roseheart
Bermuda Triangle, United States, North America (2): roseheart, FallacyOfUrist
Mid-Atlantic, Nigeria, Africa (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, Madman
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/1280px-Flag_of_France.svg.png)
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I feel like I should point out that the Aegean islands are in Greece, not France. Also, we should probably count how many pairs of soiled underwear there are on the first mission before we do a training programme.
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No, I think we should definitely not send rookies in to fight aliens. That's the epitome of "wasteful sacrifice".
And we HAVE to be reactive because they decide the terms of the engagement. First off, let's make sure our ground troops aren't going to get utterly wrecked, alright? Then we can improve our interceptors and maybe start refurbishing ABMMs to shoot down UFOs, and train our troops based on the ways they prefer to fight. Let's start with elites, and then make specialists, not the other way around. First be good at everything, then be the best at something.
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I just think it’ll be better if we train them in fighting aliens once we know what fighting aliens is like.
Sure, General training wouldn’t hurt, but would be far less effective than training them how to fight our enemies.
And right now, while we have the strategical defensive advantage, the aliens will be on the defense tactically. We’d be stopping already-in-progress abduction and harvesting and scouting and whatever missions after they start. So we shouldn’t throw our troops at a defending enemy completely blind.
With something like aerial recon, our troops can be aware as they advance and not stumble into a trap.
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Well, yes, but right now since we got a crappy roll we can either send in rookies who can't even fight with (hopefully) aerial recon, or we can send in elites who can work without the recon.
NINJA EDIT:
Actually, it'll be better if we deploy well-trained and highly adaptable units at first, otherwise we're going to lose the first few battles by default.
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We won’t lose battles by default if we don’t do one specific thing. That’s silly. We may lose some battles if the aliens successfully developed something useful for infantry combat. Otherwise, no; Arms Races are generally balanced at the start.
And I think you’re underestimating our rookies. They’re rookies but, jokes aside, they’re still effective soldiers.
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Not just if we don't do something specific, but aerial recon is a secondary concern to improving our actual ability to kill them. As you said, it should be pretty balanced from the start, but if we let our first design stay killed by rolls, we ARE probably going to lose the first turn.
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Our ability to keep panic levels down will come down to our ability to a take down UFOs before they touch down. You can quote me on this.
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So you think the GM set things up as to make 2/3s of our gameplay meaningless?
I'm not trying to sound accusatory or anything, I'm serious: More than half of gameplay is set up around infantry combat, we should not be able to completely invalidate it that easily.
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Not just if we don't do something specific, but aerial recon is a secondary concern to improving our actual ability to kill them. As you said, it should be pretty balanced from the start, but if we let our first design stay killed by rolls, we ARE probably going to lose the first turn.
You're acting as if aerial recon is just so we can say we have aerial recon?
aerial recon is a secondary concern to improving our actual ability to kill them.
That's the thing. Aerial Recon is improving our actual ability to kill them as well as decreasing their ability to kill us. It of course won't be 100% effective, but when you see an enemy before they see you, you have the advantage. It's easier to kill enemies when you know where to shoot, and it's easier to not die when you can't get ambushed nearly as easily.
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I think you are badly overestimating the amount of open terrain we will be operating in. Yes, aerial recon is cool. No, it is not sufficient to make up for a lack of skill we are a single revision away from correcting.
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GM,
Are we close to the next round?
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I meant the bog-standard "Rifleman"/"Assault" class, not a shotgunner (Who I've usually seen referred to as an Operator anyway).
Anyways, as a general rule the only reason you have a special "class" of soldier is if the thing he's going prevents him from also shooting enemies. For instance: Machinegunners can't really also carry a rifle, so they are a special "class" (In modern US military doctrine). The officer, though? He's a rifleman. The medic? He also has a rifle. Shotguns? Yeah, there's shotguns, but they're underbarrel or carried as an extra weapon, usually. Grenades? Everybody's got grenades. Enemy has tanks? You've got a Javelin spread out across your squad, but they've all still got their rifles.
And if this was the real world, you'd be right. But this is based on XCOM, which does actually have (http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Soldier_(XCOM:_Enemy_Unknown)#Classes) classes (http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Soldier_Classes_(XCOM_2)), one of which in base XCOM2 is a grenade specialist (http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Grenadier_Class_(XCOM_2)). Given that the GM even advised us that "greater results could be attained through specialization of soldiers into distinct tactical roles" in the NOTSOFT design, I'm pretty sure that there's going to be classes in this game.
(An "assault" class is garbage, you either pin the enemy down or you hit them precisely and kill them, you don't try to do both)
There was an Assault Class (http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Assault_Class) in XCOM1 though, so... (Though to be fair they weren't the 'suppress the enemy' class, which was mainly the heavies and their machine guns, so I'm not sure where you got that from? Unless you meant the 'short ranged stun devices' part of breacher training which was basically meant to mean 'yes they can use Arc Throwers (http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Arc_Thrower_(item)) because they'll be up close to the aliens already'.)
As such, I'm going to stand by my suggestion for a Shotgun/Grenade class who's training is aimed towards kicking the doors in and fighting in close quarters, given that we'll probably have to kick the doors in and fight in close quarters at least once per UFO shot down. Next design action though, that's not a revision.
I think you are badly overestimating the amount of open terrain we will be operating in. Yes, aerial recon is cool. No, it is not sufficient to make up for a lack of skill we are a single revision away from correcting.
While better training would be nice, I still want to wait until we have some actual in universe experience fighting aliens (IE, this turn's combat), and then use a revision to turn the program into an 'Alien Warfare Acclimatization Program' like I said back here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7643494#msg7643494). Getting UAVs is also a step towards getting UAV strikes, which will help a lot once the Sectopods show up. Also maybe HWPs (http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Heavy_Weapons_Platforms).
Edit : Actually, Question. 10ebbor10, is this based more after OldCom, NewCom, or Long War? Or is it a mix of all three? (I'm assuming this isn't based off the Final Mod Pack or something akin from OpenCom because that's a lot more niche.)
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I really, really think you need to read that again, since you seem to have selectively missed the part where I corrected/explained the definition of an "Assault" class that I was using.
Also, while this IS based off of XCOM, it's NOT actually XCOM. If we don't want to have every soldier be capable of doing one thing and one thing only, we don't have to do that. In fact, it would be far, FAR better for us to do something that's not a direct copy of XCOM, because then the Sectoids will have less forewarning about what we're going to do.
Also, do remember that the enemy knows we have rookies (The beginning selections are public knowledge as a general rule in AR, since it wasn't specifically mentioned in the OP). An area-of-effect killing weapon would be a good choice if you know you're going to face what amounts to a classic Soviet Rush of not-well-trained minions.
Honestly, I see no reason to wait until we've seen MORE of the aliens---other people have already engaged them, that's why our organization has been "reactivated", remember? Not to mention, special forces soldiers (Which the NOTSOFT program attempts to emulate) probably won't be readily fazed by shooting (and getting shot by) aliens instead of people.
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I will be all for souping up our soldiers once we freak them out by blowing up one of their UFOs. They will start upgrading their shields and whatever with them in response.
"Numerical weakness comes from having to prepare against possible attacks; numerical strength, from compelling our adversary to make these preparations against us."
—Sun Tzu
My offering for a sig:
[center][tt][url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.0][glow=blue,2,300][color=dodgerblue][u]
X•COM TRUSTEE [/u]
[b]/[/b]\ •V I G I L O• /[b]\\[/b]
[u][b]/[/b]\ \C O N F I D O/ /[b]\\[/b][/u][/color][/glow][/url][tt][/center]
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Then it becomes a GM question:
Do we have any access to anti-ballistic-missile interceptor missiles?
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I really, really think you need to read that again, since you seem to have selectively missed the part where I corrected/explained the definition of an "Assault" class that I was using.
...Oh, doh, you were calling a rifleman an Assault. That's my bad, I thought you meant the canon Assault Class.
Also, while this IS based off of XCOM, it's NOT actually XCOM. If we don't want to have every soldier be capable of doing one thing and one thing only, we don't have to do that.
Er, what? Since when did I call for letting a soldier do one thing and only one thing? I mean, if this is based off NuCom at all, classes are going to be a thing, but generally any individual soldier could be trained in more then one fashion, and being specialized that much is just asking to be smashed by something that you didn't expect?
In fact, it would be far, FAR better for us to do something that's not a direct copy of XCOM, because then the Sectoids will have less forewarning about what we're going to do.
There's really only a limited amount of conceptual space to fit 'shotgun specialist' into, and the Breacher is already not a NuCom Assault because it's not trained as a fast moving... well, assault dude, but a breaking and entering dude?
Also, do remember that the enemy knows we have rookies (The beginning selections are public knowledge as a general rule in AR, since it wasn't specifically mentioned in the OP). An area-of-effect killing weapon would be a good choice if you know you're going to face what amounts to a classic Soviet Rush of not-well-trained minions.
I really doubt we'll end up doing 'zerg rush'. Unless something has really changed, even the rookies should be trained special forces people. It's just that trained special forces people are the bottom level for the alien war...
Even in OldCom I don't remember much Zerg Rushes.
Honestly, I see no reason to wait until we've seen MORE of the aliens---other people have already engaged them, that's why our organization has been "reactivated", remember? Not to mention, special forces soldiers (Which the NOTSOFT program attempts to emulate) probably won't be readily fazed by shooting (and getting shot by) aliens instead of people.
Fazed? No, but aliens still don't fight like humans do, whether it's Sectiods and Psionic attacks, Floaters as air mobile infantry, Chrysalids infestations, everyone's least favorite invisible flying robot squid things...
An Alien Warfare Acclimatization Program revision would be about training people to expect alien tactics and abilities instead of being taking off guard because most special forces training don't include 'and what to do when a flying tank shows up', and 'Yes, the Muton does have basically have bulletproof skin, here's how you fight something like that' or 'how to deal with psionic attacks' and 'watch out when you are at mid range verses the Thin Men, cover won't protect you from their poison spit, that thing is basically a gas grenade', and so on.
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First quote: Thanks for rereading, sorry for the blunt/harsh tone.
Second quote: I mean that a gun should not be so complicated it needs its own special snowflake soldier to handle, nor should each soldier be capable of only one job. For instance, if somebody has a rifle AND a shotgun instead of being a super-special shotgunner "class", he doesn't die just because his enemy decided it was a good day to use a sniper rifle.
Third quote: I mean "don't copy the class system, those are stupid and we can do better with flexibility"
Fourth quote: Based off of XCOM, not a direct copy, so we should definitely prepare our guys as best as possible. Also, the special-forces-style training has already done *something*, it's just not good enough to use.
Fifth quote: This one I disagree the most about. Special forces training is NOT about what you fight, it's about HOW. Specops training focuses on adaptability, individual thought, and self-reliance, as well as teaching the soldier a high level of competence with every weapon system imaginable. If that thing is bulletproof, well, the specops soldier is both physically capable of carrying and skilled enough to use the rocket launcher that's going to kill the thing, as well as being adaptable enough to change the battle plan, if, say, it turns out the enemy has some form of armored creature hanging out in front of the building they're supposed to be securing.
Also of note is that we're NOT going to necessarily see those standard XCOM baddies and weapons. They MIGHT get some additional help from their "bosses" as they get more genes, but most of the development is going to come, in Arms Race style, from things they do themselves.
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Second quote: I mean that a gun should not be so complicated it needs its own special snowflake soldier to handle, nor should each soldier be capable of only one job. For instance, if somebody has a rifle AND a shotgun instead of being a super-special shotgunner "class", he doesn't die just because his enemy decided it was a good day to use a sniper rifle.
Fair enough, though its really gonna depend on how the game handles classes and such, and even in real life carrying two primary weapons+ammo+support gear tends to be kinda encumbering. NuCom did let Assaults use both rifles and shotguns after all, just that people can only use one gun at a time...
Third quote: I mean "don't copy the class system, those are stupid and we can do better with flexibility"
Fair enough, though again the Breacher class isn't a copy of anything?
Fourth quote: Based off of XCOM, not a direct copy, so we should definitely prepare our guys as best as possible. Also, the special-forces-style training has already done *something*, it's just not good enough to use.
Well, yah, but even rookies should be smarter then Zerglings. But hey, like in all other XCOM games, hopefully the survivors will grow and learn!
Fifth quote: This one I disagree the most about. Special forces training is NOT about what you fight, it's about HOW. Specops training focuses on adaptability, individual thought, and self-reliance, as well as teaching the soldier a high level of competence with every weapon system imaginable. If that thing is bulletproof, well, the specops soldier is both physically capable of carrying and skilled enough to use the rocket launcher that's going to kill the thing, as well as being adaptable enough to change the battle plan, if, say, it turns out the enemy has some form of armored creature hanging out in front of the building they're supposed to be securing.
Fighting aliens is still different then fighting humans, so specifically training people to fight aliens instead of humans still seems worthwhile to me. The Hows are different because you have different foes. (And eventually, different gear and abilities, when gene mods and psy powers and combat cyborgs start showing up...)
Also of note is that we're NOT going to necessarily see those standard XCOM baddies and weapons. They MIGHT get some additional help from their "bosses" as they get more genes, but most of the development is going to come, in Arms Race style, from things they do themselves.
Eh, fair enough, though we don't really know how that's going to work? I mean, it's one thing if they end up with a plasma tech advantage token, and another if they end up with 'here is some snakemen DNA to make a unit type out of'. We'll see more in the upcoming battle though, and hopefully that'll give us a better understanding of how things will work.
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GM, what does the unit cost mean in absolute terms? I see that we have rookies costing 1UP and have 3UP to spend, does that mean enough rookies to fill 3 Skyrangers? What about casualties, do we need to spend UP every turn to bring our force back to full?
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GM,
Are we close to the next round?
Everyone on your side appears to be finished, and the enemy is too. So for now it's me answering questions and then doing the thing.
Edit : Actually, Question. 10ebbor10, is this based more after OldCom, NewCom, or Long War? Or is it a mix of all three? (I'm assuming this isn't based off the Final Mod Pack or something akin from OpenCom because that's a lot more niche.)
Mixture, but probably dominated by vanilla NewCom, given that that's the one I played most.
Then it becomes a GM question:
Do we have any access to anti-ballistic-missile interceptor missiles?
Depends on what you want them for. You posses the technology, but given that they're not exactly infantry weapons you can't exactly deploy them as default equipment.
GM, what does the unit cost mean in absolute terms? I see that we have rookies costing 1UP and have 3UP to spend, does that mean enough rookies to fill 3 Skyrangers? What about casualties, do we need to spend UP every turn to bring our force back to full?
You have enough rookies to fill 3 Skyrangers.
The UP limit is the amount you can support at any given time. Whether they all got slaughtered last turn ir not doesnt matter, you get 3 sqyads either way.
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Revision: Aerial Reconnaissance
Our important funding nations should have a hearty stockpile of military drones. "Drones" as in those remote-controlled airplanes with extensive cameras and sometimes weapons. Not the quadrocoptors.
With these precautions in place, we can ask the nearest nation with an available drone (without weapons, of course) to send one to patrol over the area and provide HQ with a constant camera feed of the site. No special effort required by us - just asking them and uplinking the feed. Then we can use the feed to advise our soldiers about potential threats. We'll always have an eye in the sky
Easy : 3 + 1 +1 = 5 (Average)
The Aerial Reconnaissance protocol is quickly ratified, and with support of the council member is easily extended to a large amount of nations through the world. The concept of having to give up control of military assets irks some (especially since they dont get to watch, operational security and that), but your modest demands and significant remuneration more than compensate for that.
ALERT : UFO DETECTED
Bogey 001
Size : Small
Altitude : High
Location : Egypt
Current Trajectory : High speed descent
A military radar has picked unusual traces, and per agreed protocol, transmitted the data to our HQ. Our analysts are certain we're dealing with another of the UFO's. He appears to be descending rapidly, likely planning to land either in Egypt or one of the neighbouring countries.
Bogey 002
Size : Small
Altitude : Space
Location : South Africa
Current Trajectory : Orbital reentry
We were lucky to pick up this bogey so early. An astronomical radar picked up an unusual bolide, that appeared to be decelerating far faster than it should have. Luckily, one of the members of the institute was alert enough to forward us the data. We suspect a second UFO, same size of the previous one.
Bogey 003
Size : Small
Altitude : Ground
Location : Nigerean Interior
Current Trajectory : Landed
Squads present 1*small, pinkish alien, ???
We missed this one. A routine reconnaissance flight has spotted this UFO sitting intact on the ground near a small village deep in the Nigerean interior. Per the new aerial reconnaissance protocols, a drone flight was sent. Detailed reconnaissance shows the presence of several living aliens, who downed the drone with plasma fire.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFT training regimen : The harshest of harsh training regimes. Provides forces with a wide variety of skills, as well as injuries and trauma's. Less than effective due to high fail rates and a focus on harshness over training. Cost : 3 Unit Points.
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
5 VP
3 UP
3 EP
You have now entered the Intercept phase.
Using your available resources, create as many missions as you want to attack any of the targets on the list above.
Example :
1 Raven [Intercept Bogey 001]
Or
1 Skyranger [Down and Capture Bogey 002]
1 Rookie Squad
AABBCCDD
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Launch Interceptor vs Bogey 001 (Destroy): [1] Khan Boyzitbig
Deploy Skyranger vs Bogey 003 (Capture): [1] Khan Boyzitbig
Bogey 002 is a little far away, aside from being on orbital reentry we would have to travel the length of Africa and the med, might be doable but the other two are nearby and gives us some idea of their strengths.
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We should set something down in South Africa that can take off and intercept that space UFO when it starts to do a damn thing at all.
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So interceptors cost 2 VP, and Skyrangers 1 VP, and we have five VP.
Personal Inclination is to slap both flying UFOs with an Interceptor, and send a Skyranger to the landed UFO filled with NOTSOFT troopers. That way we have a chance to recover loot, and the aliens get to take as little resources as possible back to wherever they have their base.
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Sounds good, who do we send?
(Do we have specific "hero" units or are they just general troops? Do we have rookies and notsoft to choose from?)
I believe we should send a complete unit of our greenest rookies. Perhaps a fair chance to win against the sectoids, but hide our NOTSOFT until absolutely necessary.
"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near." — Sun Tzu
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A skyranger can only deploy a single squad, we have three unit points, rookies cost 1 and NOTSOFT costs 3. If we're only sending a single Skyranger in, we might as well send in NOTSOFT.
Edit : Also, Interceptor Strikes don't usually give any worthwhile salvage, and we really need salvage to get good shinies like lasers or alloy ammo of our own. It might be worthwhile hiding anti-psi troopers till an Ethereal Battlecruiser drops or something, but hiding NOTSOFT isn't worth the extra chance of loosing and getting no shiny salvage that opens up shiny super technology things.
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If we hit hard with troops now, they will remember it in the design phase.
A bad idea.
This is the lead I suggest.
Destroy a UFO in spectacular fashion. If we cannot, become able to ASAP.
Upon doing this, immediately focus on troop enhancements, while they now focus on improving UFO battle efficiency.
Once we crush them on a ground battle, immediately focus on improving ability to take down UFOs with minimal damage for the tech.
This early start plan will lead us strongly into where ever we must go next, with the Ethereals licking their wounds and eating our dust.
Imminently, we should send our rookies, enough that they can win, but a loss would not be all bad. As they would become comfortable with their superiority in that area, albeit falsly so.
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Well, we could send three skyrangers... Overkill doesn't hurt with rookies.
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We can't send enough rookies to be assured that they'll win unless we let some of the UFOs go by unopposed. We have 5 VP, Interceptors cost 2, and Skyrangers 1. There are 3 UFOs. We can't send 3 Interceptors out because that would be 6 VP, and we only have 5, so we need to catch two of them with Interceptors and drop a Skyranger on the last one. Since we can only send a single Skyranger out, we can send only a single squad out. If we're going to send a single Squad out, it should be NOTSOFT because that gives us the best chance of winning and getting the loot we need to start researching the high tech stuff instead of being limited to current tech stuff.
Well, we could send three skyrangers... Overkill doesn't hurt with rookies.
We could only send three Skyrangers after the landed UFO if we ignored the other two UFOs, which will give the Ethereals more resources and allow them to send out even more/better stuff next turn. We can not afford to let UFOs go past without trying to bring them down unless we really have no other choice. We could send one Skyranger after each UFO, each with a squad of rookies and with one Interceptor to bring down a UFO, which gives us more chance of successfully getting loot but them more chance of successfully getting away with a mission I guess, but I'd prefer to bring the hammer down.
Launch Interceptor vs Bogey 001 (Destroy): [2] Khan Boyzitbig, Happerry
Launch Interceptor vs Bogey 002 (Destroy): [1] Happerry
Deploy Skyranger vs Bogey 003 (Capture): [1] Khan Boyzitbig
Deploy Skyranger (1 NOTSOFT Squad) vs Bogey 003 (Capture): [1] Happerry
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We should hit them with two interceptors and a NOTSOFT unit. NOTSOFT makes our troops superior, might as well deploy it.
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Operation: Zebra
The point of this operation is to tell two lies to our enemy:
1. We are focused on air to air.
2. We are focused on many weak ground units.
Overview
We destroy the bogey flying over Egypt. We then send all other available ground assets to the grounded bogey.
GM I will attempt to describe this in game terms, but if my wishes can be better expressed in those values, and you know what I mean to do, please modify these plans to better express the intended goal.
This is our first mix-up with the enemy, let's make the wrong first impression, for the right reasons.
1 Raven [Destroy Bogey 001] (2VP)
3 Skyranger [Capture Bogey 003] (3VP, 3UP)
1 Rookie Squad (BASIC XCOM PISTOL)
1 Rookie Squad (BASIC XCOM RIFLE)
1 Rookie Squad (BASIC XCOM Grenade)
5/5VP 3/3UP
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This is getting a bit messy, so I'm making a votebox. I concur with Happerry's plan to engage 2xInterceptor and 1xSkyranger with NOTSOFT troopers.
Happerry's Plan: (2) Happerry, Cnidaros
Khan Boyzitbig's Plan: (1) Khan Boyzitbig
Operation Zebra: (1) Roseheart
Happerry's Plan: 1 Interceptor each to Bogey 001 and 002, 1 Skyranger with NOTSOFT troops to Bogey 003
Khan's Plan: 1 Interceptor to Bogey 001, 1 Skyranger to Bogey 003
Operation Zebra: 1 Interceptor to Bogey 001, 3 Skyranger with rookies to Bogey 003
Also, I think there's no need to specify which squads have which equipment, since rifles pistols and grenades all have 0 cost.
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Also, I think there's no need to specify which squads have which equipment, since rifles pistols and grenades all have 0 cost.
Yup.
They were added only because someone asked, and I'd previously forgotten. Your soldiers will automatically take all the equipment they need if they're authorized to do so (and basic equipment is considered free for all).
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Happerry's Plan: (3) Happerry, Cnidaros, strongpoint
Khan Boyzitbig's Plan: (1) Khan Boyzitbig
Operation Zebra: (1) Roseheart
Happerry's Plan: 1 Interceptor each to Bogey 001 and 002, 1 Skyranger with NOTSOFT troops to Bogey 003
Khan's Plan: 1 Interceptor to Bogey 001, 1 Skyranger to Bogey 003
Operation Zebra: 1 Interceptor to Bogey 001, 3 Skyranger with rookies to Bogey 003
Roseheart is interesting because 3 units of rookies look safer, but we got lucky detecting South African one very early so it would be wrong to ignore it
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Also, I think there's no need to specify which squads have which equipment, since rifles pistols and grenades all have 0 cost.
Yup.
They were added only because someone asked, and I'd previously forgotten. Your soldiers will automatically take all the equipment they need if they're authorized to do so (and basic equipment is considered free for all).
Alright consider that the main weapons. Is there a limit to how many weapons a troop can hold? A unit? How many units in a troop?
Roseheart is interesting because 3 units of rookies look safer, but we got lucky detecting South African one very early so it would be wrong to ignore it
It's a matter of going after the bigger piece of cheese(you'll recall I also wanted to go after that UFO)We should set something down in South Africa that can take off and intercept that space UFO when it starts to do a damn thing at all.
However I have changed my mind. The alternative is sending over a single squad of traumatized bruised NOTSOFT to take on the ground UFO, one that has landed of its own free will and is ready and waiting for us, in other words a death trap.
I believe that the three squads of rookies are better than the one of our NOTSOFT, but even if that is not true and actually especially if it's not true then in either case we will lose. Better to lose some vanilla rookies that don't tell our enemies anything then our unpolished NOTSOFT that we could have more prepared next time around once we refine that program.
Also the Raven Interceptor is a "bleeding edge" piece of technology, specially designed to take down UFOs. I have a hunch that in the vanilla game from the get-go they will have a good chance on a one-on-one battle and then we will get our UFO kill that will get our enemy chasing their tails in that arena allowing us free room to beef up our soldiers.
I trust this plan because it has already won, it doesn't even matter what happens next.
I must apologize that I think I rub people the wrong way in these team games. I do not come across as humble. And I often have strong convictions. I can do nothing other than ask you to join my plan if you think it's a good idea, I do not have the social tools to persuade you. :(
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Do remember that NOTSOFT soldiers are tough, the ones who make it through, anyway. They're not insane or anything so far as we know, they're our best bet for winning a battle. Let's use them instead of giving ourselves a larger risk of loss.
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What are the penalties to loss of rookies? Don't we just replace them for free?
if we win with the NOTSOFT, we have shown our best hand. I do not call that a victory.
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Happerry's Plan: (4) Happerry, Cnidaros, strongpoint Stabby
Khan Boyzitbig's Plan: (1) Khan Boyzitbig
Operation Zebra: (1) Roseheart
Happerry's Plan: 1 Interceptor each to Bogey 001 and 002, 1 Skyranger with NOTSOFT troops to Bogey 003
Khan's Plan: 1 Interceptor to Bogey 001, 1 Skyranger to Bogey 003
Operation Zebra: 1 Interceptor to Bogey 001, 3 Skyranger with rookies to Bogey 003
This seems a rather interesting arms race.
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Welcome to Arms Races, in which you do or die.
I think you need to review the turn order: We DO NOT HIDE our stuff in Arms Races, we develop new the next turn. We use it, or we lose. There's no penalties to losing rookies OR more advanced soldiers, we can always "buy" the exact same number of troops/vehicles/equipment every turn, until and unless our equipment costs decrease. We use our advantages (Such as they are) now, or we don't use them now, because they're our "best" thing and we don't want to "spoil the surprise"...but then, when DO we use them? When is it appropriate, in your idea of how this works, roseheart, for us to deploy our best things?
Happerry's Plan: (5) Happerry, Cnidaros, strongpoint Stabby, Madman
Khan Boyzitbig's Plan: (1) Khan Boyzitbig
Operation Zebra: (1) Roseheart
Happerry's Plan: 1 Interceptor each to Bogey 001 and 002, 1 Skyranger with NOTSOFT troops to Bogey 003
Khan's Plan: 1 Interceptor to Bogey 001, 1 Skyranger to Bogey 003
Operation Zebra: 1 Interceptor to Bogey 001, 3 Skyranger with rookies to Bogey 003
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The NOTSOFT program is faulty it's not ready yet.
We can polish it some more and when we do reveal it it will have a bigger impact. Or let me correct myself, a better impact.
If we use our NOTSOFT right now, literally the worst thing we can do is win the battle.
This is the first turn they do not know what to do. They do not know what they need to counter.
If we show them strong units and actually win with stronger than normal units. Then they will know that that is what they need to counter. They are going to be building units to take down strong units.
We show them just basic troops, we show them that we can take down their UFOs. We show them that they need to be focusing on their UFOs. And then... And then... We show them that we lied.
We will know when it's the right time.
However I can see I'm playing the world's tiniest violin and I have already lost this discussion. Remember that I made a strong line in the sand here. Cause I know it's going to have the effects that I've forecast.
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...
You ASSUME (Wrongly) that the enemy will be unable to defeat basic troopers armed with basic gear. They'd be FOOLS to have not upgraded SOMETHING. NOTSOFT gives us an advantage we NEED. Aerial recon is good, but it doesn't actually kill the enemy.
I think you're INCREDIBLY wrong about trying to fake them into improving their UFOs, because they might have done that anyway. Let's do everything possible to WIN, and after that we can worry about how best to counter them.
Arms Races don't leave room for subtlety, we can't successfully pull off such a ridiculous fake, because *it's not logical*. We MIGHT get them to improve their UFOs, but then guess what we have to do? We have to improve our interceptors to keep up.
Basically, there's no point to saving anything unless it was a theoretical design (i.e., we research railguns without a practical aspect, because we know they're probably Very Hard or even Impossible, and so we "hide" the design until the next turn) or it was an outright failure. NOTSOFT is suboptimal but it does produce better troops than normal.
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I don't mean this as an insult. I mean this as a tactical observation. You have a loser mentality.
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You are, in fact, incorrect.
I have a highly practical mentality, in which we lose if the enemy deploys something upgraded and we don't.
You are trying to be sneaky. Sneaky does not work in ARs. Not in the first turn, anyway.
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Your convictions only strengthen mine.
If you are to tell me that "this is how arms race is played", I'm not here to correct you. And in fact I never was in disagreement with you. And in fact I'm counting on them to think the same way. "counter" "no point in saving"
You have to think differently to have a better success rate than 50%. Which is all that you are going to get from me. And it will be painful, hard-fought, and costly just for that chance.
You need to have fakes, decoys, and distractions to get ahead. If all you are doing is strengthening your forces and sending them out to clash over and over, you're leaving it to the fate of the dice, and not using your brain. We may as well be playing the lottery.
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Be nice to each other.
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I don't mean to insult anyone, and again I apologize if it came across that way.
I believe I am correct, however I know that the real learning that I need from this game is how to work with a team. And I am grateful to have one.
GM
Is there a limit to how many weapons a soldier can hold? How many soldiers in a SkyRanger?
What are the penalties to loss of rookies? Don't we just replace them for free?
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Is there a limit to how many weapons a soldier can hold
A sensible amount.
How many soldiers in a SkyRanger
1 Squad
What are the penalties to loss of rookies? Don't we just replace them for free?
Replacement is free. Getting all your forces murdered may cost a victory.
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Thanks for clarifying.
I just have to say this. Do we really believe that one squad of NOTSOFT is going to do better than 3 squads of rookies?
It is one UFO, it has one complement of crew. It's not getting extra reinforcements or anything.
The ideal time to use them, is when we MUST send only one squad.
Operation Zebra would also allow 3 squads to gain experience at once.
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Yes, because sending three squads to do one squad's job means we fail to intercept a UFO entirely (We'd need 3 Skyrangers and thus have only VPs and UPs left for a single interceptor). That's not a good plan at all, because it means that instead of (hopefully) ensuring two UFO kills and risking one ground action, we're reliant on the success of infantry everywhere.
I'm...glad?...my conviction strengthens your own? I mean, it's not going to change the fact that you don't win Arms Races unless you actually deploy your cool toys. That's kind of the point of being an Arms Race engineer, actually---build cool things and deploy them.
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"When you surround the enemy
Always allow them an escape route.
They must see that there is
An alternative to death." -Sun Tzu
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Leaving no route of escape worked pretty well for the Russians.
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I value your perspective. This is my first Arms Race, and I am sure you have insights on the game I do not.
However the teaching of Sun Tzu and The Art of War have had great benefits when applied to a diversity of fields, business for example.
I trust those that contemplate them in a war game, will find benefit.
Bogey 002
Size : Small
Altitude : Space
Location : South Africa
Current Trajectory : Orbital reentry
Twinkle twinkle little star, how I wonder what you are.
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Happerry's Plan: (6) Happerry, Cnidaros, strongpoint Stabby, Madman, Blood_librarian
Khan Boyzitbig's Plan: (1) Khan Boyzitbigb
Operation Zebra: (1) Roseheart
Happerry's Plan: 1 Interceptor each to Bogey 001 and 002, 1 Skyranger with NOTSOFT troops to Bogey 003
Khan's Plan: 1 Interceptor to Bogey 001, 1 Skyranger to Bogey 003
Operation Zebra: 1 Interceptor to Bogey 001, 3 Skyranger with rookies to Bogey 003
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Battle Resolution
Mission Type: Intercept
Craft(s): 1 Raven
Destination: Egypt
The small UFO tears through the thin atmosphere above Egypt at hypersonic velocity, descending steadily towards it's destination. It's sleek, dark hull blends with the darkness of space above, it's flickering shields making it shimmer as if it were a gemstone set into the sky. It's a serenely beautiful sight, which is shattered suddenly when UFO's plasma turret opens fire.
A burst of veridiscent plasma bursts through the sky, just barely missing the closing Raven interceptor. In response, the cutting edge XCOM interceptor opens up the throttle, and jumps towards the UFO. The pilot confirms his target, and takes aim.
Still closing quickly, the interceptor launches a missile from beneath each wings. The Avalanche missiles sweep towards the UFO, which enters a tight turn to avoid them. One missile looses course and overshoots, but the other hits dead on. The armor piercing warhead detonates, and a supersonic jet of liquid metal pierces through the UFO's hull. A part of the hull dissappears suddenly, and debris spills out of damaged compartment. Wounded, but far from defeated, the Ufo continues on.
Another missile volley erupts from the wings of the interceptor, sweeping towards their target. A veridiscent plasma burst speeds the other way, hitting the cockpit head on. The superheated plasma washes over the plane, scouring away the paint, melting the fuselage, until the entire thing disintegrates, half melted parts dropping down towards the Earth.
But even from death the interceptor still strikes true. Radar imagery shows the UFO tumbling from the sky, landing somewhere deep in the desert. Without an interception team ready however, we have to wait until other forces can secure that side. Whatever damage we've done to the UFO must have been tiny, because the site is empty when forces arrive, and we have some radar returns of a ship claiming back to space.
Efforts to recover anything from the site are unsuccesfull. Initially, there are claims that some of the debris shed from the UFO was recovered and sold to tourists, but recovery of some of those supposed artefacts revealed them to simply be random scraps.
Result : Mission Intercepted, UFO got away.
Mission 2
Mission Type: Harvest
Craft(s): 1 Small Scout (1VP)
Unit loadout: 1 Sectoid (Plasma Pistols, Meld container) (1UP, 1EP)
1 Scout Drone (1UP)
Destination: South Africa
Fire engulfs the UFO as it descends towards the Earth from space. It's hull appears to deal effortlessly with the heat, but the UFO does not appear entirely immune. It's sensors are blinded by the heat, letting the Raven sneak in from below. Despite the heat, the design differences between the UFO and any human craft are obvious. Unlike a human craft, the UFO does not appear to have a clearly defined front and back. Instead, it looks as if it were capable of flying backwards or forwards as easily as any other direction.
Not that it gets any chance to show of such tricks. From the perfect firing position, the Raven fires 4 missiles straight into the UFO. One still misses, 2 tear great rends into the hull, but the last must have hit something vital, as the entire UFO goes up in a ball of flame.
Result : UFO Destroyed
Mission Type: Harvest
Craft(s): 1 Small Scout (1VP)
Unit loadout: 1 Sectoid (Plasma Pistols) (1UP)
1 Scout Drone (1UP)
Destination: Nigeria
Contrary to the two other missions, the UFO in Nigeria has already been on the ground. UAV reconnaissance, though complicated by repeated plasma fire from the landed UFO, eventually identifies all the aliens on the ground. There appear to be the scrawny pink aliens found earlier ("now classified Sectoids") and some kind of tiny, floating silvery orbs. They appear to be trying to capture as many humans as possible, with the silver orbs hunting them down before injecting or electroshocking them, while the sectoids drag them back to the UFO.
The Skyranger appears just as the UFO's are wrapping up operations, moving quickly to avoid plasma fire. Our NOTSOFT squad gets dropped of on the town's edge, and effectively moves to engage the enemy. The following data has been derived from footage streamed from the team's equipment kits, as there were no survivors.
The battle was brutal, but brief. Our NOTSOFT soldiers showed enormous tenacity in the face of adversity, but they were outnumbered, and the enemy had an uncanny knowledge of our movements. Their scout drones popped up from unexpected vents and nooks and crannies, injecting our forces with severe tranquilizer and poison, or electrocuting them into unconsciousness. Their weaponry fires hot plasma blasts, tearing through the walls of the structures our forces hide in, and inflicting horrific burn wounds. Our forces don't go down easily, killing sectoids and scout drones, but they go down eventually.
With the town left burning behind them, the remaining sectoids take off with their UFO and disappear into space.
Result : Operation FAILURE
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFT training regimen : The harshest of harsh training regimes. Provides forces with a wide variety of skills, as well as injuries and trauma's. Less than effective due to high fail rates and a focus on harshness over training. Cost : 3 Unit Points.
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
5 VP
3 UP
3 EP
It's now the design phase.
AABBCCDD
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BSR Fuel
By combining all achievements of modern chemistry, including secret military projects, X-com develops new jet fuel that allows to increase range, speed and payload of all of its aircrafts.
I want to focus on our airforce to maintain decent chance of intercepting the enemy. Better fuel should increase interceptions chances and it is useful experience in chemistry which we'll need later.
Also, we learned that capturing intact landed UFOs is hard. We shouldn't try that.
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Honestly what we most need right now are more vehicle points, not better vehicles. We seem to have a pretty even odds verses the UFOs right now, but with how costy Ravens are we just can't send enough out. If we'd had one more vehicle point we could have dropped two Skyrangers on the landed UFO, or followed up one of the ones we shot down with a Skyranger and hopefully had more luck verses a damaged crew. If we had two more vehicle points, we could have done the triple rookie squad wave tactic and still hit the other UFOs with an Interceptor each.
...Also, I don't see any Jet Fuel we come up with competing at all with the stuff we'll get from the aliens, and I'd like to at least get Alien Alloy before we make a new interceptor design.
As such, I'm gonna make my own suggestion.
Enhanced Mass Production Lines
Through leveraging Serial Mass Production and concentration of resources, it will become possible to build dedicated factories able to produce the vehicles that XCOM needs, thus allowing additional aircraft to be deployed across the globe, giving XCOM more flexibility in their ability to respond to alien incursions.
BSR Fuel (1): Strongpoint
Enhanced Mass Production Lines (1): Happerry
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...Also, I don't see any Jet Fuel we come up with competing at all with the stuff we'll get from the aliens, and I'd like to at least get Alien Alloy before we make a new interceptor design.
Future tense is a key here. Besides it is not a dead end tech. Jet packs are the most likely future advancement. Mixing alien fuels and ours may be a route, too
If we'd had one more vehicle point we could have dropped two Skyrangers on the landed UFO, or followed up one of the ones we shot down with a Skyranger and hopefully had more luck verses a damaged crew. If we had two more vehicle points, we could have done the triple rookie squad wave tactic and still hit the other UFOs with an Interceptor each.
Chances are that we won't be that lucky next time and they'll send ufos to Amricas or Australia or Far East. Look they noticied that we intercepted their missions. I think at least half of their missions. And all in Africa. They'll avoid it and Europe like fire.
How having more Ravens will help us to protect every continent? We need more range and faster interception. It is important.
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Q. Why do we know what was inside the UFO we blew up?
Q. Guessing the "You have now entered the Intercept phase." is a leftover, but I may be wrong.
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Q. Why do we know what was inside the UFO we blew up?
You know it's in very tiny pieces now.
Q. Guessing the "You have now entered the Intercept phase." is a leftover, but I may be wrong.
You saw nothing.
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How having more Ravens will help us to protect every continent? We need more range and faster interception. It is important.
...The VP we have doesn't change if they send something to Africa, South American, the Arctic, or Japan. If we have a better interceptor, that'd just be another thing we can spend our VP on, and probably a more expensive one if it actually is better, which would end up with us having less coverage in all because we'd not be able to send as much craft out. More VP = More Craft we can send out in the interception phase = the actual way to get better coverage. More range and more speed do nothing to help us with how much we can cover at a time, it just means that the ships we do send out fight better in their duels.
Future tense is a key here. Besides it is not a dead end tech. Jet packs are the most likely future advancement. Mixing alien fuels and ours may be a route, too
All flying armor type stuff and alien fuels in the games are based off Elerium, which isn't a chemical at all, and run off some sort of gravity drive thing, which doesn't involve any form of jet fuel and won't be added by them. The easiest way to get better jet engines, if we want them, will be to get alien alloys and then use superior alien materials to make superior jet engines that can take more abuse and stress then current designs.
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If we have a better interceptor, that'd just be another thing we can spend our VP on, and probably a more expensive one if it actually is better
I am not offering to design a better interceptor. I am offering to design a better fuel for both of our existing aircrafts. It is a very different kind of action. I fail to see how it will make our fighters cost more VP
which would end up with us having less coverage in all because we'd not be able to send as much craft out
We can get a single contact next turn somewhere over Australia. And VP won't help us at all. It doesn't matter how many fighters won't get there in time
All flying armor type stuff and alien fuels in the games are based off Elerium, which isn't a chemical at all, and run off some sort of gravity drive thing, which doesn't involve any form of jet fuel and won't be added by them.
We don't have to mimic the game. We can go for hybrid technologies anytime we want. After all Elerium is a limited resource. Also, I am not even sure that X-COM flying suits aren't hybrid tech in the first place.
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Let's not do "better fuel" please. Mediocre improvements that would be quickly obsoleted unless we specifically try to keep soon-to-be-mediocre tech once we have better stuff available just so we don't waste it. For our revision, we should do the revision to NOTSOFT. For our design, I say we should shore up on ground combat. Because that's extremely important for progression if we want to base any of our stuff off of alien tech. We have to capture their stuff before we can use it.
So let's go over our ground combat disadvantages. I've bolded anything relevant.
The battle was brutal, but brief. Our NOTSOFT soldiers showed enormous tenacity in the face of adversity, but they were outnumbered, and the enemy had an uncanny knowledge of our movements. Their scout drones popped up from unexpected vents and nooks and crannies, injecting our forces with severe tranquilizer and poison, or electrocuting them into unconsciousness. Their weaponry fires hot plasma blasts, tearing through the walls of the structures our forces hide in, and inflicting horrific burn wounds. Our forces don't go down easily, killing sectoids and scout drones, but they go down eventually.
So, our disadvantages in list form:
1.) Being outnumbered - pretty straightforward.
2.) Uncanny knowledge of our movements - just general battlefield awareness. Perhaps from the scout drones?
3.) Scout drone ambushing - whereas #2 is them having good awareness, this is us having poor awareness.
4.) Plasma - also pretty straightforward; they have plasma which tends to be good at killing people.
5.) Tranquilizers, Poison, and Electrocution - all stuff their drones use to deal with our forces. But unlike plasma, this can be seen as easily counterable. The question is whether it's worth trying to specifically counter this.
It seems to be that the main problems are #1 and #3, and #2 to a lesser extent. #1 is very easily solved by revising NOTSOFT. #3 and #2, however, are more difficult. So I'm going to bring back up a proposal I made a while ago.
The TAV (below) should greatly help our battlefield awareness without being too difficult.
Design: Tactical Awareness Visor
Designed to be able to be equipped by itself or embedded in any helmet, the TAV is an Augmented Reality HUD for our troops. The TAV is a transparent visor that displays images on itself with the illusion of them being physical objects in the real world - "augmented reality".
Using numerous small cameras - such as infrared, visible, and the like - combined with a small integrated computer, the TAV can help our operatives' awareness in the field. The main use is target recognition. Through heat, shape, sound, and more interesting techniques like looking for the pulses of living beings, the TAV can very reliable detect anything it judges as a living or relevant entity. These entities are highlighted based on familiarity - fellow operatives get green (no rookies shooting other rookies), humans get blue, unknowns get yellow, and confirmed threats get red. In addition to very easy recognizing of targets, the varied cameras ensure that it works regardless of visibility - NO MORE NIGHT MISSIONS the aliens can't hide in the dark. The highlighting also works behind walls and other obstructions in case something like the sound sensor picks up movement out of sight. There are also indicators if any movement/beings are detected behind/to the side of the wearer.
It also has other functions deemed relevant like current mission objective, the status of any networked devices (like "ammo in gun"), radio status, and anything else deemed relevant. But the main feature is target recognition and highlighting, which should greatly help in any case; especially against a stealthy and unknown foe.
While not necessary for operation, the TAVs can share data with each other - so if your TAV-equipped squadmate can see something, you can see it (highlighted) too. The TAV also displays the vital signs of allies based on their own vital sensors and the estimated condition of aliens based on their pulse.
TL;DR: An augmented reality HUD that highlights targets+allies in different colors using a large variety of sensors and has some other miscellaneous functions. Open for improvement in the future too.
((References: MS HoloLens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_HoloLens) - A commercial - and very cheap relative to us - AR device; Automated Target Recognition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_target_recognition) - just general info on target recognition stuff; Kinect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinect) - Not AR, but is also commercial, "reliably" recognizes humans, can sense pulses through the skin, skeletal recognition, and more all while being a fraction of the price of even the HoloLens; and more. The ideas of "target recognition" and "augmented reality HUD" are already fairly present in modern culture and civilian+military tech.))
BSR Fuel (1): Strongpoint
Enhanced Mass Production Lines (1): Happerry
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
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I am not offering to design a better interceptor. I am offering to design a better fuel for both of our existing aircrafts. It is a very different kind of action. I fail to see how it will make our fighters cost more VP
If it's enough of an upgrade to make the craft better, the craft will be more expensive because that's how arms race games work. Better stuff costs more resources. If its not enough of an upgrade to make the already beyond the bleeding edge interceptor better, which it probably won't be because the thing is already the result of all the shiny modern stuff being put together to make the best fighter possible, then it won't make the Raven better and we'll have spent a design action on something that really doesn't help us.
which would end up with us having less coverage in all because we'd not be able to send as much craft out
We can get a single contact next turn somewhere over Australia. And VP won't help us at all. It doesn't matter how many fighters won't get there in time
Er, what? I think you need to reread the rules. There's nothing at all about location that effects the VP. If they send one ship in over Australia, we'll still have 5 VP and will be able to attack it with 5 VPs worth of stuff. This applies if they attack in South America, China, Russia, USA, Canada, the Antarctic, Poland, Britain... The only thing Location has any effect on is who's panic meters are going to start going up. Range and speed has literally nothing to do with how many aircraft we can call up to meet attackers with, unless you count how the faster something is the more expensive its going to be, so the fewer of them we'll be able to call out. Which is basically the reverse of how you're suggesting it effects our ability to respond to attacks.
We don't have to mimic the game. We can go for hybrid technologies anytime we want. After all Elerium is a limited resource. Also, I am not even sure that X-COM flying suits aren't hybrid tech in the first place.
We can go for whatever technology we want, that is true, but going for 'let us combine all the best modern high tech to make better fuel' when the Raven is already described as something made beyond the bleeding of tech with shiny new engines, I'm really quiet doubtful that we'll be able to actually make something better when we don't have any new ingredients to work with that was not also available to the people who designed the Raven.
As for the flying armor, in NuCom the precursor research for both the Hover S.H.I.V and the Archangel Armor is the New Fighter Craft research, which is all about making a new craft that uses all alien tech. That might not be definite but it is highly suggestive.
OldCom flying armor on the other hand... it's literally their normal power armor with some small device strapped to its front. I mean, really, just compare the two (http://www.ufopaedia.org/images/b/bc/PowerSuit.gif) images (http://www.ufopaedia.org/images/f/f4/FlyingSuit.gif). That's no hybrid technology application, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were made by strapping a Floater's anti-grav device to a power armor.
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If it's enough of an upgrade to make the craft better, the craft will be more expensive because that's how arms race games work.
Well... nope. Not every tech increases cost. And even if GM will consider that aircrafts with better fuel cost more VP... see below
There's nothing at all about location that effects the VP. If they send one ship in over Australia, we'll still have 5 VP and will be able to attack it with 5 VPs worth of stuff.
Sure we can use all 5 VPs... or ten if we'll have them. But all of them may fail getting there because it is too far\they are too slow. While fewer but better will be able to get there in time.
Going for upgrading land forces is not something I like. We may not get a ground combat chance. That means wasted (short term) action. Upgrading airforce is never wasted
Mediocre improvements that would be quickly obsoleted unless we specifically try to keep soon-to-be-mediocre tech once we have better stuff available just so we don't waste it.
It will be obsoleted only when and if we switch to all-Elerium powered airfore. I doubt that this will happen considering how limited this resource is. Also, any experience in chemistry is useful. Also, it gives an immediate almost guaranteed impact, because there will be some combat in the air. Same can't be said about land combat so it is far less urgent even if we are behind there.
Guys, we kicked their asses in the skies... what do you think they'll do? My bet is that they will improve their UFOs. We can't afford ourself to try to win by numbers (we may not even get close enough to them to use the numbers) or go for ground forces (we may get no chance for such kind of battle)
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What?
Our forces don't go down easily, killing sectoids and scout drones, but they go down eventually.
This is easily "we get a chance." Remember that one NOTSOFT squad takes as much resources as three regular squads.
We're doing fine in the skies. We don't need to improve there. If all we did was improve in the areas we were strong in without ever addressing our weak points - especially when our weak point covers half of the game - then we'd lose the game.
Ground combat is extremely important. It's required to get new tech from the aliens which, as it happens, is critical. We're doing poorly in ground combat. We really need to address ground combat.
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This is easily "we get a chance." Remember that one NOTSOFT squad takes as much resources as three regular squads.
Should we shoot down zero UFO ground forces will get a zero chance to capture anything no matter what toys we give them. We shoot down something, our current troops do have a chance. This is why in early game it is far more important to improve our airforce.
We're doing fine in the skies. We don't need to improve there. If all we did was improve in the areas we were strong in without ever addressing our weak points - especially when our weak point covers half of the game - then we'd lose the game.
I can say that if all we do is addressing our weaknesses we'll lose the game. It is nothing but an opinion. There are different strategies. We don't play the game in a vacuum. We are doing fine now. They react and we aren't doing fine. We are doing badly. We need to maintain that fine or even go further. When we'll be ahead enough to know that they can't catch up in one action, we can switch focus.
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Nope.
Contrary to the two other missions, the UFO in Nigeria has already been on the ground.
We do not have to shoot down UFOs to capture them.
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Nope.
Contrary to the two other missions, the UFO in Nigeria has already been on the ground.
We do not have to shoot down UFOs to capture them.
Ok. I stand corrected. We do can try to wait till they land (I don't like an idea of storming a landed not crashed UFO but it is irrelevant)
It changes little. Instead of Raven being unable to get to UFO in time\have no enough enough range. We'll have the same problem with Skyranger not being able to get there in time. Better fuel helps with that.
Most likely they will send UFOs to other parts of the world, it will make harder for us to intercept them in time. Also, likely, they will upgrade either speed or stealth or ability to fight back of their UFOs. I want to balance what will happen by improving our airforce in a way that will benefit us for many turns if not forever (As I said we'll need to have all-ellerium airforce to abandon jets, unlikely to happen anytime soon)
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If our Skyranger is at all based off of any XCOM's Skyranger, then speed of transit is not a problem.
In X-COM: UFO Defense, the Skyranger, while having a range limit (which we do not have), could intercept any alien activity in its range with time to spare.
In XCOM: Enemy Unknown, the Skyranger did not have a range limit and could intercept any alien activity across the globe.
Getting there in time will not be a problem.
Also, sidenote:
deep in the Nigerean interior.
Oh, ebbor.
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Strongpoint, I do in principle agree with your view of "only addressing our weaknesses will lose us the game". This is because we will only be reacting to advances the other side makes, and barring good rolls that give us more than what we asked for, we will eventually fall behind as the enemy wins battles in that short period before we address a new weakness.
However, in the case of ground combat, I feel that it is essential that we win, in order to get alien tech. From the first two missions, what I gather is that air combat alone will not gain us any significant amount of alien tech. Either the craft is completely destroyed in the air, vaporising the tech, or we shoot it down, fail to capture then the surviving aliens fix it and get back up to space. We absolutely need alien tech in order to get ahead.
Happerry, are you sure a design that aims to get us more production points is allowable in this game? From what I recall, Arms Race generally doesn't allow designs that focus only on "get us more resources". But the logistics of this AR is somewhat abstracted, with no territory to capture or any way that I can see to get more points from battle, so if you can confirm that such a design is allowed, I'll vote for it.
Chiefwaffles, I like your design, but I think the focus should be more on "battlefield management system" rather than individual HUDs. Perhaps consider adding a line about how these visors can display targets identified by other visors, enhancing effectiveness the more soldiers and points of views we have? Could lead into a revision to spam quadcopter scout drones of our own over the battlefield.
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Either the craft is completely destroyed in the air, vaporising the tech, or we shoot it down, fail to capture then the surviving aliens fix it and get back up to space.
We simply need Skyranger to go for such downed vessels. We may not get three targets next turn and that means we will be able to send more than one aircraft.
I am sure that we need to ensure that we can produce such downed UFOs and we need to spend this turn design on improving airforce. I am afraid that if we'll fail to improve our airfoce we may have no target to use Skyranger on.
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Alright, so we need to do something to nullify that ridiculous scout drone. And we desperately need to revise NOTSOFT, the troopers should've been better than that. A design for advanced armor, perhaps? If they're using plasma and tranquilizers, a ceramic-based armor set will nullify both of those (Ceramics won't readily melt, and obviously a needle can't poke through them).
Frankly I'm extremely surprised that we actually lost soldiers to tranqs of any kind, seeing as how they should be fully kitted out in modern combat gear...regardless, we can tailor our equipment to our own particular threat.
I'll propose a set of advanced infantry armor tomorrow, unless somebody wants to propose one in the meantime. Basically, we need to nullify the plasma, as well as the tranquilizers and whatnot the drones use.
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Ceramic armor is a DEAD END in the tech tree. Alloys is the easiest tech to capture and we'll use that for our armor.
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Ceramic armor is a DEAD END in the tech tree. Alloys is the easiest tech to capture and we'll use that for our armor.
How about Alloys coated in Ceramic? But think about deploying our troops what's the opinion on a transport that can carry multiple squads so that rookie units can be used to support elite units, In operations like breaching landed UFOs who we know are going to be filed with unhurt nasty shit.
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what's the opinion on a transport that can carry multiple squads so that rookie units can be used to support elite units
We can make Skyrangers cheaper\producing more of them can achieve this like Happery offers. Problem is that we can't deploy both NOTSOFT an rookies with our UP shortage. So getting more transports is pointless.
We can try to go for deploying rookies and try to do something to reduce NOTSOFT cost\get more UP, but I doubt that we can get much this way.
Or we can forget about NOTSOFT for some time and go for three rookies squads strategy with something like this:
SkyHawk
SkyHawk is an alternative to SkyRanger. It is way more simpler than SkyRanger. It is slower. It has less armor. It has no complex vertical landing forcing operatives to use parachutes. But it can carry 3 squads and far cheaper to produce and maintain.
Not an offer, just a concept.
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Chiefwaffles, I like your design, but I think the focus should be more on "battlefield management system" rather than individual HUDs. Perhaps consider adding a line about how these visors can display targets identified by other visors, enhancing effectiveness the more soldiers and points of views we have? Could lead into a revision to spam quadcopter scout drones of our own over the battlefield.
Sure; I just edited it in. Shouldn't really add any difficulty.
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Ceramics is not a dead end.
Ceramics -> Xeno Ceramics -> alien alloy.
BSR Fuel (1): Strongpoint
Enhanced Mass Production Lines (2): Happerry, Blood_Librarian
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
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Ceramics is not a dead end.
Ceramics -> Xeno Ceramics -> alien alloy.
BSR Fuel (1): Strongpoint
Enhanced Mass Production Lines (3): Happerry, Blood_Librarian, Stabby
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
That and ceramics would let us have something relatively super cheap compared to what ever alien armour we reverse-engineer.
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Ceramic armor is a DEAD END in the tech tree. Alloys is the easiest tech to capture and we'll use that for our armor.
Ceramics is the fastest and best way we have of nullifying plasma weaponry, yes? It isn't a dead end either, if we want we can go ahead and make ourselves more and more advanced ceramics as we learn tech from the aliens or whatever. However, the first step is to stop losing soldiers to one-hit-kill weaponry.
Alien Combat Equipment
Made of an improved polymeric fiber (Better Kevlar) that's highly resistant to heat, and with a set of small scale-like plates covering the vitals and head, made of ceramics similar to those used on the Space Shuttle (The not-fragile ones used on later flights), this armor promises to be much, much better at keeping our soldiers alive. The helmet covers a lot of the head and has a thin Plexiglas faceplate, and has two small cameras and a powerful light. The smaller camera is a simple visual-wavelength camera, above which is mounted the light. The other camera is mounted on the opposite side of the helmet, and operates in infrared. It comes with an integrated Land Warrior HUD (projected onto the faceplate) and battlefield-control system uplink package. The LW system is reprogrammed to accept data from the soldier's camera systems, as well as drone feeds and feeds from the rest of his squad. The radio broadcasts are retransmitted by the transport craft, allowing Command to show objectives on the HUD overlay.
I think that should be everything, really. Basically it uses the modern Land Warrior system to do exactly what the TAV does, except with more armor.
BSR Fuel (1): Strongpoint
Enhanced Mass Production Lines (3): Happerry, Blood_Librarian, Stabby
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
Alien Combat Equipment: (1) Madman
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...what?
The Land Warrior system is nothing like the TAV. At most the Land Warrior helmet interface thing just shows a video feed of the soldier's scope or a local satellite feed. Nothing else. That actually shares a striking 0% similarity to the TAV.
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Actually yes, it is. The Land Warrior system is a HUD with an uplink to a battlefield command-and-control system, which displays any sort of requisite data on said HUD. The TAV is a HUD that displays data from other sources. Sounding similar enough?
If anything I should mention "expanded functionality" or whatnot, but Land Warrior covers a LOT of the same material.
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I think we should revise the TAV, but design something unique.
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...no, it doesn't, Madman.
From this site. (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/land_warrior/)
The 2kg (4.5lb) Land Warrior helmet provides ballistic protection and carries the main components of the soldier’s communications systems.
The Wireless Local Area Network (WLAN) antenna is installed in the helmet and connects via the hub to the MBITR radio carried in the soldier’s fighting load vest. The range of the radio is 1km within line-of-sight.
The helmet carries a Head-Mounted Display (HMD), which is positioned over the soldier’s dominant eye and provides command and control information and situational awareness.
The display shows the video from the daylight video scope or the infrared thermal weapon scope mounted on the soldier’s weapon. It also shows satellite and topographical maps with friendly positions, updated every 30 seconds.
The soldier can switch screens using the select button on the stock of the rifle. The helmet-mounted display is used for zeroing the daylight video scope, capturing battlefield images and for sending and receiving data.
That's nothing like the TAV.
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So the TAV can't be integrated with radios, equipment, etc.? It can't show data from exterior sources on a HUD in overlay style?
The TAV is more specifically designed for our needs, but it's still nothing but a programming upgrade to a Land Warrior system (i.e., to update the display more often, show data from different/more sources, and that's basically it).
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But it literally isn't? The TAV is nothing like the Land Warrior system. I feel like you're purposely completely misinterpreting it at this point.
The TAV is more of an augmented reality system. It's transparent and displays 3D objects that have the illusion of being present in the real world. It doesn't just display camera feeds. It uses numerous sensors to locate and indicate enemies and other relevant entities to the user far before the user would normally see them. Again - nothing like the Land Warrior system. I cannot emphasize this enough. There are nearly no similarities other than them both sharing a very general purpose.
I've edited the TAV to make this clearer and also added some bits about vital sign monitoring.
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The most significant thing is the IFF system that it uses.
That is huge.
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But you still aren't correct! The LW is a digital warfare system. TAV is a digital warfare system.
The LW is an augmented reality system, that's not a difference. LW projects data from various sources over a soldier's eye, your system projects data over a visor, and mine will project it onto the faceplate (note to self, make system project info onto the faceplate). The TAV is a next-level version of LW: It can pull data from said feeds and aggregate that into another image, but ultimately it's still an augmented reality, digital-warfare system like LW.
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BSR Fuel (0):
Enhanced Mass Production Lines (4): Happerry, Blood_Librarian, Stabby, strongpoint
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): Chiefwaffles
Alien Combat Equipment: (1) Madman
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I projected making a face helmet, where the camera feed is fed into a laser matrix (of 1000~) or so lasers that feed into the user's eye and acts as if they had projected the camera feed directly into the eye instead of having a visor, but that's for the powered armor.
BSR Fuel (1): Strongpoint
Enhanced Mass Production Lines (3): Happerry, Stabby, Strongpoint
Tactical Awareness Visor (2): Chiefwaffles, Blood Librarian
Alien Combat Equipment: (1) Madman
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I projected making a face helmet, where the camera feed is fed into a laser matrix (of 1000~) or so lasers that feed into the user's eye and acts as if they had projected the camera feed directly into the eye instead of having a visor, but that's for the powered armor.
BSR Fuel (1): Strongpoint
Enhanced Mass Production Lines (3): Happerry, Stabby, Strongpoint
Tactical Awareness Visor (2): Chiefwaffles, Blood Librarian
Alien Combat Equipment: (1) Madman
And then we roll a 1, and the system occasionally fries our power-armor users' eyes...
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And then we roll a six, and our troopers have 360 degree vision, unable to be surprised at all. Ever.
The reason I didn't propose it now was that we didn't have the technology for it yet.
Besides, all it would take is a revision to fix it, if that were the case, and it would also povide protection against bright flashes and giving the enemy a morale penalty from our cool masks.
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I was making a joke out of it, it's an interesting proposition (Though a simple HUD is far, FAR more efficient)
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Yes, but it wont stop a bullet from entering your eyes. This is assuming we build a slab of metal where a slab of glass/etc owuld be, now one option would be a screen, but we could go the full way and give them a "natural" direct to eye method of information transfer.
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BSR Fuel (1): Strongpoint
Enhanced Mass Production Lines (3): Happerry, Stabby, Strongpoint
Tactical Awareness Visor (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood Librarian, Cnidaros
Alien Combat Equipment: (1) Madman
From reading up Land Warrior it doesn't seem to be like the TAV at all. Although both are "battlefield management", I was thinking that the TAV would focus on target recognition/AR, literally highlighting the targets in a red halo to tell the soldier "hey, this fuzzy grey shape over there is a Sectoid sniper, shoot there!". Or even, in urban fighting scenarios, using IR to outline the enemies in a room before the soldier breaches the door.
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I am still no a fan of infantry design because it works only if there will be infantry combat next turn. First we need to ensure that we can initiate ground combat anytime we want, then improve our ground combat.
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I am still no a fan of infantry design because it works only if there will be infantry combat next turn. First we need to ensure that we can initiate ground combat anytime we want, then improve our ground combat.
The Sectoids don't win unless there is ground combat. There will be ground combat next turn, in fact there will be ground combat every turn, until and unless we succeed at shooting down every single UFO ever.
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Even then, ground combat will be required for clearing out UFO's.
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The Sectoids don't win unless there is ground combat. There will be ground combat next turn, in fact there will be ground combat every turn, until and unless we succeed at shooting down every single UFO ever.
They also win if we fail to detect\intercept their UFO before it takes-off after the completed mission.
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We are detecting them though. We done a revision specifically to do exactly that with UAV's.
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So, does anyone feel like breaking the tie?
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BSR Fuel (1): Strongpoint
Enhanced Mass Production Lines (4): Happerry, Stabby, Strongpoint, roseheart
Tactical Awareness Visor (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood Librarian, Cnidaros
Alien Combat Equipment: (1) Madman
X•COM TRUSTEE
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BSR Fuel (1): Strongpoint
Enhanced Mass Production Lines (5): Happerry, Stabby, Strongpoint, roseheart, FallacyofUrist
Tactical Awareness Visor (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood Librarian, Cnidaros
Alien Combat Equipment: (1) Madman
Because industry!
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THis is oddly communist.
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How so? I mean, other than the fact that it's a horrible choice that's going to ensure we lose every ground mission this turn.
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Design
Enhanced Mass Production Lines
Through leveraging Serial Mass Production and concentration of resources, it will become possible to build dedicated factories able to produce the vehicles that XCOM needs, thus allowing additional aircraft to be deployed across the globe, giving XCOM more flexibility in their ability to respond to alien incursions.
Easy : 2 +2+1= 5 (Average)
Concentrating resources to enable greater production efficiency is a proven technique to lower costs and increase production rates. Unfortunately, many of XCOM designs rely on highly complex, and highly expensive components that are often custom fabricated. Nonetheless, you're able to improve the production rate somewhat.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFT training regimen : The harshest of harsh training regimes. Provides forces with a wide variety of skills, as well as injuries and trauma's. Less than effective due to high fail rates and a focus on harshness over training. Cost : 3 Unit Points.
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
3 EP
It's now the revisionphase.
AABBCCDD
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How so? I mean, other than the fact that it's a horrible choice that's going to ensure we lose every ground mission this turn.
What, so you don't think being able to drop two or more skyrangers on a thing is a way to win? If we get even just one more vehicle point, and if the upcoming NOTSOFT revision drops its unit point cost by at least one, we'll be able to drop a unit of rookies and a unit of NOTSOFT on whatever we shoot down to take this turn.
Edit - Oh, hey, we did get that one more vehicle point. Anyone still have a NOTSOFT revision written up?
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Revise Down and Capture
Down and Capture: A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces with fire support support from X-com aircrafts in the air.
When I played original X-COM back when I was a kid, I always wanted an option to use that aircrafts to strike damned UFOs on the land. Ravens are interceptors but modern interceptors can strike land targets decently well.
With this kind of mission we can send a sizeable force
Alternatively
Rookie Training Program+
Good leadership is essential. Instead of training elite of elite units, elements of NOTSOFT are used to train commanders of rookie squads.
I think revising rookie squad is a better way to get cheap units then revising NOTSOFT. We really want to be able to send two units this turn
Also
Exploding bullets for standard rifle
Using exploded bullet is considered a war crime... But our current enemy never singed Geneva convention. Standard ammunition of infantry is modified to explode inside the target.
But it looks dead end tech wise
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VOTEBOX
Revise Down and Capture (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7648888#msg7648888): ROS
X•COM TRUSTEE
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NOTSOFT Enhanced Retention (NOTSOFTER)
By borrowing a few SAS, SEAL, and yes, even a couple Spetsnaz trainers, we hope to bring our program up to its original specifications. The apparent focus on brutality is to be discarded for a focus on efficiency and training value. Instead of raw brutality, we will have hard training regimens with a purpose. Also, there's no reason for permanent injuries in a reasonable training regimen. Whatever weird thing is causing those, we got rid of it. Strained muscles and bruises are to be expected, even broken bones if, for example. However, it should not be so traumatic as to permanently debilitate them, that's just ridiculous.
Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (1) Madman
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NOTSOFT Enhanced Retention (NOTSOFTER)
By borrowing a few SAS, SEAL, and yes, even a couple Spetsnaz trainers, we hope to bring our program up to its original specifications. The apparent focus on brutality is to be discarded for a focus on efficiency and training value. Instead of raw brutality, we will have hard training regimens with a purpose. Also, there's no reason for permanent injuries in a reasonable training regimen. Whatever weird thing is causing those, we got rid of it. Strained muscles and bruises are to be expected, even broken bones if, for example. However, it should not be so traumatic as to permanently debilitate them, that's just ridiculous.
I don't expect that this kind of revision will reduce UP cost. Also, I dislike what kind of result is possible from low roll. And we want to improve elite, we should try to adapt it to fighting aliens
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How? We know very, very little about what happened, apparently. Also, it's not aimed at reducing the costs. It's aimed at making them WORTH the cost. With the possibility of launching three interceptors, we may be able to avoid ground combat for a turn, but if we can't we need to ensure we're capable of killing the enemy off. Since we didn't improve our ground troops, our best bet is to fix our first design. A design plus a revision, even with a bad roll on the design, is superior to just a revision.
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Or we may detect one ufo and want to send more than 1 Skyranger. Having one 3UP unit takes our flexibility away.
Also, revising non-starting tech just because we need to "fix" bad rolls is wrong if new design is worse than starting ones (and NOTSOFT is worse than rookies, it is far less cost effective) There are other ways to benefit from a failed design experience.
Upgraded Rookie training program
Rookie training program is modified using lessons learned from collecting the data from the battle in Africa. Training courses include tactics of fighting against small and nimble targets like alien scout drone and adjustments to seeking cover against wall melting plasma shots. In fact some parts of rookie training program aims at making soldiers unlearn some of habits of war against other humans.
Also, Rookie training integrates few successful and not (overly) harmful elements of NOTSOFT and integrates it in training routine. Soldiers that volunteer to be commanders of unit take harsher training that IS very closer to extremes of NOTSOFT
Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (1) Madman
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint
I am torn between this and revising Down and capture mission. I think thread will vote for some infantry revision, so going for one I like more.
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The underlying assumption of my plan is that we can fix NOTSOFT to be worth 3 UP.
If that assumption is true, then we should just send a single squad of NOTSOFT, because it will be better than the 2 Skyrangers' of rookies we COULD send. They WILL have the VPs for three UFOs again, if not more. And if they DO deploy only one UFO, we had better send everything we can muster after it, because it'll be loaded for bear, I suspect.
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It'd be pretty stupid to ignore a design just because it didn't get perfect rolls. We have a base that we can build on, and we should use them.
Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (2) Madman, Chiefwaffles
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint
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My issue with the fire support revision can basically be summed up as 'I do not think we currently have air weapons that work for fire support'. Our Raven Interceptors were described as using missiles, and none of the missile weapons in XCOM have had a lot of ammo. It's a good idea once we get Laser Cannons or something, or perhaps design a ship actually designed for fire support. Maybe this game's version of the Lightning (http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Lightning)?
Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (3) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint
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We're not actually confined to XCOM's stuff, guys. If we want to make an interceptor armed with guns, then let's make an interceptor armed with guns.
Or we could just design a ground-support aircraft (A-10 but more modern, anyone?) aimed at 1 VP, and send a transport and a ground-attack plane after every single alien landing site.
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We're not actually confined to XCOM's stuff, guys. If we want to make an interceptor armed with guns, then let's make an interceptor armed with guns.
Yes, we can do this. And if we want aircraft doing fire support missions, we should do this before we make a mission type that wants a fire support plane.
Depending on how this turn goes, I might very well support that plan next turn. (Though preferably I'd like to get some alien loot this turn and then expend any bonus we get from that to get laser weapons without risking our bad rolls from hitting us again.)
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I think you mean "plasma weaponry", since the aliens aren't using any sort of lasers yet and we shouldn't assume they will be.
As for the comment about us not being confined, I said that because if we need ground support, the best way to get it is to make a ground support plane, not wait til we get lasers (Which *should* be weaker than plasma weaponry, by the way, depending on how closely the GM follows source material, as well as how "soft" the sci-fi of the source material is).
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I think you mean "plasma weaponry", since the aliens aren't using any sort of lasers yet and we shouldn't assume they will be.
As for the comment about us not being confined, I said that because if we need ground support, the best way to get it is to make a ground support plane, not wait til we get lasers (Which *should* be weaker than plasma weaponry, by the way, depending on how closely the GM follows source material, as well as how "soft" the sci-fi of the source material is).
I said Lasers because lasers should be easier then plasma to make, and don't need alien sourced ammo which should be another factor in making them cheaper then plasma. We could try gauss or railguns or something instead if you really don't want lasers. But plasma is the top tier of canon weapons, so I doubt it's going to be easy to get. And given our current difficulties, I'd prefer to aim for something we're more likely to actually succeed at, and then use that success to get more loot which we can then expend to get better odds at more difficult stuff.
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I mean, we *can* continue to assume that it's all "top tier" and whatnot, or we can just branch out a bit, steal the stuff, and not worry too much about the highly artificial limits of XCOM's tech trees. Besides, what do you mean "alien-sourced ammo", plasma weapons should heat their shots themselves (i.e., take input of gas of some kind and turn it into a plasma) and not need any fancy external ammo.
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10ebbor10
Do Raven have access any kind of air to ground weapons? I assumed that we have what modern airforces have + avalanche (the best air to air missile in the world)
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I mean, we *can* continue to assume that it's all "top tier" and whatnot, or we can just branch out a bit, steal the stuff, and not worry too much about the highly artificial limits of XCOM's tech trees. Besides, what do you mean "alien-sourced ammo", plasma weapons should heat their shots themselves (i.e., take input of gas of some kind and turn it into a plasma) and not need any fancy external ammo.
Plasma weapons need Elerium to make their ammo though? Well, in OldCom at least. I mean, it's not like we're going to have to track individual ammo clips, but that stuff is probably going to be taken into account when the time comes to calculate its cost.
Even beyond that, while we shouldn't feel limited to OldCom or NuCom's tech trees, just completely ignoring them and assuming we can skip right to end game applications doesn't seem very wise to me. This game does have Difficulty modifiers to our rolls after all, and we really don't want to get -2 or -3 modifiers to our rolls for trying to grab top level stuff right off. And that's assuming that going right for Plasma doesn't get slotted in as 'Impossible'.
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It's also assuming we can't use the science in sci-fi to accomplish things, instead of being handcuffed to XCOM's tech tree.
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Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (4) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint
I like the idea of laser weaponry if only so we can sell it to nation's militaries without endangering our technological monopoly.
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Honestly? I would prefer self-guided smart munitions on a slightly larger than bullet scale.
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It's also assuming we can't use the science in sci-fi to accomplish things, instead of being handcuffed to XCOM's tech tree.
Um, Ahem.
Even beyond that, while we shouldn't feel limited to OldCom or NuCom's tech trees, just completely ignoring them and assuming we can skip right to end game applications doesn't seem very wise to me. This game does have Difficulty modifiers to our rolls after all, and we really don't want to get -2 or -3 modifiers to our rolls for trying to grab top level stuff right off. And that's assuming that going right for Plasma doesn't get slotted in as 'Impossible'.
You seem to be under the impression that 'we should not blindly copy every last bit' means 'lets dump the entire thing and pretend it does not exist'. This is still an X-Com game, not a generic science fiction game. Just as there's no reason not to consider upgrading to alloy ammo as a cheaper alternative to energy weapons, there's also no reason to expect that the game will let us jump right to top level applications in our first weapon upgrade and have it all work out fine.
Honestly? I would prefer self-guided smart munitions on a slightly larger than bullet scale.
So Blaster Bombs (http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Blaster_Launcher)?
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My point is:
Who's telling us that plasma is a top-tier weapon choice? What particular game mechanic is making a plasma weapon unobtainable right now? This is an Arms Race, we have no designated tech trees, no tech is necessarily more powerful than any other, they all have their requirements, advantages, and disadvantages. The aliens get a shortcut to advanced tech, however, to make it an interesting asymmetric AR. We just get to invent our own way around, as well as slowly acquiring their tech. However, we don't have to operate under the assumption that the alien tech is the be-all end-all of warfare, nor do we have to act like we must first get the tech from the aliens (though that will make some things easier).
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I don't entirely disagree with the madman's "sentiment", we don't need to assume we have to play by the usual rules. But everything I've seen does line up with my 360 XCOM experience.
I think we should play it by the book.
Get plasma, use it. We can make our "cool toys" with the typical tech flow, rather than waste time and energy.
(Clarification: get plasma from the ets, not from scratch)
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I'm of the opinion that while we shouldn't limit ourselves strictly to just redoing XCOM's tech tree, we should still base it off of the same ideas. Take the aliens tech, make our own designs using it, and do them better than the aliens. And the game mechanic making a plasma weapon unobtainable right now is the fact that we have no idea how to build a plasma weapon and can't using our conventional technology or knowledge.
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10ebbor10
Do Raven have access any kind of air to ground weapons? I assumed that we have what modern airforces have + avalanche (the best air to air missile in the world)
You have conventional air-to-ground ammo, yes. On the other hand, the Raven is exactly designed for it, and
Commander! You may want to instruct your men to exercise restraint when using explosives... while certainly effective at killing aliens, they also destroy the artifacts we're hoping to recover from the bodies. Just something to consider.
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Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (5) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint
I'm thinking the revision may end up along the lines of "beatings will continue until morale improves!"
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As a new player to XCOM games I can make two choices:
A. Take a backseat role, and just watch and learn.
B. Make assumptions, and actively participate.
I briefly contemplated the first option. I will dare to do the second.
From what I've seen, I believe these games have been played with a focus on tactics, not strategy. I am not talking at all about the mechanics, but the 'culture' of the playstyle grown around it.
I am officially hiring myself as the team's Strategist.
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
–Sun Tzu
(tldr: pretty much the Sun Tzu quote)
We build, we deploy, we win or lose battles, then we instantly build.
Perhaps, if we agreed to set aside 12 hours after a turn just to discuss the results and where we should go, we could make macro decisions rather than 100% micro reactions. I will make a social vote for this time to put aside.
Strategyphase
For at least 12 hours after the start of what would be the design phase, no designs are to be proposed or voted on, to avoid early snowballing before discussion.
The focus on this discussion is to predict enemy reactions, and set far reaching goals, and change them when doing so becomes necessary.
While I realize it is common to 'tack on' some strategy to a proposal, I believe a focused effort will render greater cohesion and more effective design philosophies.
REVISIONS
Revise Down and Capture: (0)
NOTSOFTER: (6) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros, roseheart
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint
SOCIAL
Strategyphase: (1) roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I don't really agree with you, roseheart. Arms Race is all about strategy, but you seem to miss the people playing around that. Hell, we already have people planning on how to incorporate alien tech in the future and what we're going to do - whether ceramics now is a good idea, or how we should approach weapons, and more.
The first thing to note is Discord, or rather the lack of it. As people don't have to worry about spamming a thread and dealing with 1-2 responses a day on average, discussion there goes a lot faster. While the critical stuff for the game goes in the forum, the discussion really helps strategy. Immensely so.
The second thing is that of "hidden" agendas. Most people don't suggest things in a void - most of the time, they aren't only ever dictated by random designs popping into their minds. Lots of people have a plan that they want to generally see through, even if the democratic nature of the game means only portions of it can actually be voted in. The intenseness of this plan (from "wouldn't having flying laser drones in a few turns be cool?" to "In exactly 4 turns we will create a gravity motorbike for our men") varies, but it generally exists.
The third, is that concrete definite strategies are just a bad idea - you can't just lay out "we do design A this turn, design B next turn, and design C next turn", because the random aspect of designs prevents that from being practical. This plus the lack of easy discussion means it's hard to discuss plans when people generally don't have any one definite one.
For example, Wands Race - the magic-based Arms Race that was finished something like 1-2 months ago by evictedSaint. Arstotzka, one of the sides, had a plan. Many designs were part of a grander plan. There were tons of times when designs didn't have immediate benefits, or the full nature of a design wouldn't be finished for numerous turns. And this was intentional. Coming up with more specific examples here off hand isn't particularly easy, since the game finished a while ago. But there were so many plans. Aircraft, proper artillery, tanks, wonder-materials, going to space, and much more.
Or Battle for Aljadid. Considering it's still ongoing, giving out actual examples isn't really something I'm comfortable doing. But Ertex, for example, has a plan. Nearly everything we design, revise, and do in the strategy phase is specifically done in order to facilitate future endeavours. Current designs are made around what we already plan on doing in the future and what we assume Quillus will do. And Quillus most likely does as well.
The XCOM Arms Race is stil new, and doesn't have a Discord. While a Discord isn't required, it most definitely facilitates discussion. And as for the new aspect, just give it time.
REVISIONS
Revise Down and Capture:Revise Down and Capture: (1) roseheart
NOTSOFTER: (5) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint
SOCIAL
"Strategy Phase"
- Yes (1): roseheart
- No (1): Chiefwaffles
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The third, is that concrete definite strategies are just a bad idea - you can't just lay out "we do design A this turn, design B next turn, and design C next turn", because the random aspect of designs prevents that from being practical. This plus the lack of easy discussion means it's hard to discuss plans when people generally don't have any one definite one.
Not at all, it's no more locking things in than other types of discussion. But a plan that gets 3+ votes before the other half had a chance read the game update, really is.
The first thing to note is Discord, or rather the lack of it. As people don't have to worry about spamming a thread and dealing with 1-2 responses a day on average, discussion there goes a lot faster. While the critical stuff for the game goes in the forum, the discussion really helps strategy. Immensely so.
Perhaps, and I can see you being right about that. However, I see no reason why it couldn't happen in the thread if time was put aside for it.
As far as "hidden agendas" those are what win wars, but only if they are hidden from the enemy, not each other.
Trusting there are no spies of course(which I do).
REVISIONS
Revise Down and Capture: (0)
NOTSOFTER: (6) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros, roseheart
Upgraded Rookie training program (1) strongpoint
SOCIAL
Strategyphase:
- Yes (1): roseheart
- No (1): Chiefwaffles
X•COM TRUSTEE
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NOTSOFT Enhanced Retention (NOTSOFTER) (expanded)
By borrowing a few SAS, SEAL, and yes, even a couple Spetsnaz trainers, we hope to bring our program up to its original specifications. The apparent focus on brutality is to be discarded for a focus on efficiency and training value. Instead of raw brutality, we will have hard training regimens with a purpose. Also, there's no reason for permanent injuries in a reasonable training regimen. Whatever weird thing is causing those, we got rid of it. Strained muscles and bruises are to be expected, even broken bones if, for example. However, it should not be so traumatic as to permanently debilitate them, that's just ridiculous. Additionally few lessons of the first battle are incorporated into the training. Tactics that are used to seek cover against gunfire are revised to take into account wall melting ability of plasma weapons. More attention is paid to techniques of hiding against surveillance drones of any kind and detecting them before they detect you. In the same time spent on human weaponry vs human weaponry is reduced (but not eliminated in case of existing or potential human allies of Aliens)
I think not mentioning our combat experience is wrong
NOTSOFTER: (6) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros, roseheart
NOTSOFTER (expanded version): (1) strongpoint
And no, I am not going to pollute the votebox with any kind of rules discussion.
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Following the XCOM tech trees by the book would be a bad idea, predictable actions make easy pickings for the foe.
Using things that aren't usual will help us, the aliens wouldn't expect a successful capture to be "We now have a UFO of our own", something to consider for the future when we actually have a chance of using their ships.
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There's no point to a "Strategy Phase". Usually, I'm the one who's guilty of planning *something* over multiple turns, but right now I don't even have one because we've not really fought the enemy yet, we've not really felt the flow of the game, we don't know what salvage is going to do for us, etc.
So for now, let's just get some people to survive combat, alright? We need more information before we start planning, we'll worry about "strategy" later.
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If my opinion will not be agreed with Strongpoint, so be it.
It will be heard.
Truth is Madman, there is a lot we can deduce from the first encounters.
The enemy has seen that they are comparable with us in air-to-air, and superior in ground-to-ground.
Where are they currently thinking their most vulnerable? If they are not immediately improving their air-to-air capabilities, it's going to be up there in their priorities I'd bet on it.
As for Khan and Madman discussing using an alternative Tech Tree, what would you possibly suggest we do other than the usual tiers? What exists today in the real world that is better than plasma?
As the strategist, I appreciate that we are in the field of discussing strategy and that is exactly what this is doing.
But I doubt the enemy is going to be making plasma resistant armor before we even get our hands on it and use it in battle. Or each additional Tech tier. I think it's safe to grab that stuff and use it. I am open to an alternative path I just don't see any realistic ones available.
(Ironically, in real life, us civilians wouldn't know about it if there were >.<)
Strongpoint's program is simply a superior version, and we should support it.
REVISIONS
NOTSOFTER: (5) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby, Cnidaros
NOTSOFTER (expanded version): (2) strongpoint, roseheart
SOCIAL
Strategyphase:
- Yes (1): roseheart
- No (3): Chiefwaffles, Strongpoint, Madman198237
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Personally I'm against a Discord because the discussion there always goes way faster then i have the spare time, energy, and attention for, so I'm always left out of those talks.
...But on the other hand, appointing oneself 'thread strategy person' is also a bit foolish, because we're all thread strategy people, and the person who's most convincing about their plans is the one to get people to vote for them.
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What is your strategy?
X•COM TRUSTEE
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As the strategist, I appreciate that we are in the field of discussing strategy and that is exactly what this is doing.
-snip-
Who died and appointed you and your opinions master of our strategy? Look, strategy will be discussed, but it sure isn't going to come from you claiming to be a strategist.
As for the alternative NOTSOFTER revision, I think that that's not a good plan because it's trying to be another design of "How to fight aliens" when fighting aliens is just like fighting humans: Spot them, shoot them, don't get shot. The weapons are different, the places you shoot to kill are different (Maybe, XCOM's basic sectoid things are humanoid, right?), but ultimately, special forces training is still about the person behind the gun, not the person you're pointing it at.
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Well if we want to discuss advanced modern weapons, we should ask Stirk. GM, may I invite them to come and give their opinion?
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I mean, Stirk's really
obsessed good with guns, but if you DO invite him to join the game, make sure he realizes that he can only participate in one side or the other.
As for advanced weapons, where did that idea come from? We're already working with the most advanced modern weapons available, everything we do from here on out is some level of sci-fi.
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True. But if we have access to all modern weaponry "2017+" we may as well leverage it, and I can think of no one better to advise us.
Stirk-via PM:
Hello Stirk. I am a player in a XCOM Arms Race.
The human team is discussing modern weapons, and I suggested you may be able to advise us.
Typically, the tech tree we would follow right now is to steal plasma weapons from the ETs and modify them. I'm not sure if you're familiar with XCOM games. But even if you are not, there has been talk amongst our team about trying to do something else besides plasma to throw the enemy off.
I was concerned that there wouldn't be anything we could use to compare with plasma. We have access to anything that is available today in 2017.
Is there anything that you would recommend we use to fight our enemy?
I am asking if the GM would allow you to come and have a talk. Of course if you did you could not join the enemy team.
I am familiar with Xcom.
Well the Alien's plasma weapons (especially early on) were not particularly impressive. A normal human in Kevlar can survive a hit from a plasma pistol for instance, and in the end they "only" deal around twice the damage of conventional weapons. Theoretically, high-caliber weapons such as a tank cannon should be able to outdo them. On the other hand, they are tier 3 weapons, kinda capable of blowing up a tank in one hit, and a normal human in kevlar also has a really good chance of surviving a grenade to the face. So it really depends how powerful lore-wise your game's plasma weapons are.
If you are looking for a new direction to take conventional weapons to compete in damage with, there was the OICW program. Long story short, they had attempted to design a "rifle" that shot small caliber grenades instead of bullets. They were designed so that they could explode around cover, hitting targets where normal bullets would be unable to. Theoretically, you could match a plasma weapon's damage if you had powerful enough explosives (though with how Xcom's explosives tend to work, they might be significantly less powerful). In the end, the project was cancelled for a variety of reasons, but working models had been fielded in Afghanistan to positive reception (the XM25 CDTE). Even if it ends up being less powerful, cover tends to be the biggest factor in Xcom games, and having a weapon that can mitigate it would help drastically.
Other than that, there are a handful of man-portable nuclear devices I could suggest if you are getting desperate :p. There are plenty of theoretical alternatives to plasma, but a lot of it depends on how your particular game works.
Thanks! I'll post this!
Notes:
-OICW weapons would help us be on par with plasma, but they are explosive.(Since the point would be to skip stealing plasma, this may be an option early on)
-If we want to explore other advanced tech, Stirk would need more details from the GM, and could advise us further.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I'm probably just going to vote for designing laser weapons next turn's design, hopefully with some loot gotten this turn to help with the roll. After that, I'd like to see about getting some SHIV/HWP designs to serve as fire support (Hopefully with heavy lasers), and then I'd like to go back and see about training some tactical classes like the GM said we should look into if we want better troops.
Also the idea of explosive bullets is nothing new, and if we do go for them I'd think the thing to look at first would be Gyrojet rounds.
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Hollow-points. It's easy enough for us to get a LOT of horrible things that are war crimes...when your enemy's standard infantry weapon doesn't burn them to death, that is.
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Hollow-points. It's easy enough for us to get a LOT of horrible things that are war crimes...when your enemy's standard infantry weapon doesn't burn them to death, that is.
My worry about Hollow-Points is that, by memory, don't they have shit armor pen? The enemy already has drones, we don't need to end up trying to use Hollow-Points against alien SHIVs or Mechtoids.
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Easy enough to solve: Do special forces training, and have mixed magazines. Double-tap *everything*.
And I don't know if they're bad at piercing armor, though they probably are at infantry-weapon calibers.
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REVISIONS
NOTSOFTER: (4) Madman, Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Stabby
NOTSOFTER (expanded version): (3) strongpoint, roseheart, Cnidaros
SOCIAL
Strategyphase:
- Yes (1): roseheart
- No (3): Chiefwaffles, Strongpoint, Madman198237
Got no opinions on this strategy phase thing, but I support going for last turn's combat experience on the NOTSOFT revision.
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Honestly? I think we should go for a higher powered gunpowder rifle with better recoil management. That way we can use munitions that can steer themselves without worrying about magnets messing it all up.
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I mean, do we REALLY need bullets that steer themselves? We're generally operating in close quarters, right? Close enough that random drone things can just appear and kill our soldiers, anyway.
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Well, maybe they wont steer around corners, but maybe they could steer from a shot that would would to a shot that would maim/cripple/ or even kill. This also stems form something easier to do, which is explosive (grenade or similar) rockets that steer themselves. Also, it is a bit of a tried and true sort of deal, where we can use alien materials ot do just straight up improvements (Tiny gun with a sniper rifle cartridge). With Exosuits, we can use ridiculous things like auto cannons or three barreled anti-material weapons with free reign, allowing us to develop things we already have rather then Try and play catch up in a game we already lost.
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Eh, I think we should just train our soldiers well enough that they are capable of making shots count, instead of relying on the dubious ability of a smart-bullet to correct a bad shot.
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A man can only be so well trained before he reaches peak power. A smart bullet, that is a weapon that can guide itself based on what it senses, what it is programmed to do, and any other variable has far more potential then correcting a bad shot. Concealment is slightly mitigated, as the bullet can hit the target without the person actually seeing them. The bullet could also be fired into the sky, and have it steered into the enemy position With ease. This can also be more effective with explosives, as the weapon could be taught to fly over enemy cover and detonate where the enemy is flanked or exposed.
It could also be combined with materials that could change themselves on the spot to deal more damage. It could harden before impact on bone/ splinter when in the face of delicate organs, and again, correct a bad shot. ((assuming we can make the bullet "smart" enough to do that kind of thing.)
Also, Training our men is not exclusive to smart munitions. Even the most accurate sniper or other personnel can miss. The skill of the soldier is also put into question, and it puts a higher skill ceiling as the soldier has control over the weapon in all situations. In later eras of technology, A soldier could theoretically steer the bullet, even after it leaves it's origin by communicating to the bullet while it is in the air.
The first iteration would probably just be a round with a set of programmable fins. The soldier would put in commands, and the bullet/grenade would follow those commands as best as it could, while also using its own systems to steer better into its designated target ( Painted Laser? IFF Sig? Thermal detection? Something along those lines.)
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No bullet can hit someone who's behind cover from the shooter, you can't correct a flight path in that time. You're looking at times of MILLISECONDS or even less in which you can correct that path. You also can't make a bullet shoot up and then come down on somebody's head, the battery won't last for the miles it's going to travel upwards into the atmosphere before starting to come down.
No soldier can react fast enough to steer a bullet, they fly to fast. FAR too fast. You don't seem to understand the disconnect here. You can (barely) do it with wire-guided missiles and the like, but again, no human, near-human, or kinda-human has the reaction times necessary to steer a bullet---by the time they pressed the first button of the first command, the bullet would've already hit (or missed) its target.
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I will admit that i was talking about explosives for killing someone behind cover (Grenade detonates when they flank/make cover useless) when I was talking about cover negation. We are dealing with aliens are we not? I very much doubt they don't have incredibly alien technology that we could steal to make shooting up in the air and mortaring them with smart bullets possible.
When I said later eras of technology, I meant when our soldiers had minds much faster then now, IE something that very well could steer a bullet with the required reaction time. As it is right now, we will simply have to make do with ordering the bullets to go 300 meters and then turning down to hit someones eyeball before they actually fire the shot. I'm not stupid enough to make a person try and steer something that goes the speed of sound, that is why we will have a "dummy" computer do it for us.
Human "programs" bullet/Smart munition (grenade, rocket whatever), Human fires gun. Munition executes commands.
This lowers the skill required to kill something, while also increasing "skill ceiling", as this allows some wild ass Cherokee shots to be possible with sniper rifles.
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That's still almost useless. You've got to know where your guy will be when the bullet gets there. But now, not only do you need to know where he'll be when you FIRE the gun, now you have to know it when you PROGRAM the bullet.
Also, no bullet will EVER be used in the ways you described. End of story. Grenades, rockets, yeah maybe. Bullets fly too far, too fast.
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When I say bullets, I mean ano tank sized rounds from rifles of similar quality. They will have the fins slash manuverability that would be possible with current technology. They would be most useful I'm situation thst they are naturally advantagious. 100 meters and above.
The Operator would either designate a target or blind fire with the commands placed. The bullet has the ability to change its aerodynamic profile so that high energy manuverin isn't required.
The bullet, whether it's remotely controlled or autonomous, also has its built in programming this means that it guides itself to the enemy target as well as the manually committed commands. The rounds would typically have explosive or perhaps chemical payloads to take down the enemy, and of required it could detonate mid air.
When I say Program, it isn't litterally typing in commands and hacking it (unless the soldier wants it to be), it could be optimized so that a target has to designate the range and shoot ( or much more of we had the capability to do more to Input)
Utilizing the program isn't the problem.
I find it harsh that you say "never". At the very least snipers or marksman in long range fights would be more accurate by a huge degree if the can change the bullets aerodynamics mid air with programming.
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But it's still not feasible. We probably won't be deploying tanks unless something drastically changes, and even then firing at 100 meters means you have LESS THAN (Tank shells travel at speeds greater than 1000 m/s) 1/10 of a second (TOTAL!) to change course. That's not enough time. Blind firing with commands placed is just a fancier way of missing your target, by the way.
Yes, let's use a modern grenade launcher with airburst functionality instead. That gets us EVERYTHING WE NEED, with none of the just-gonna-ignore-these-laws-of-physics that is required by your method of bending the flight paths of bullets substantially.
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Apologies, I meant to say "Anti-Tank round", not rounds from an actual tank. The smart rounds would be at the very most, fired from Automatic Weapons from either an exosuit-wearing individual or a sniper rifle designed to take out materiel adapted for anti-alien usage.
Computers think much faster than a person to the point where miliseconds is enough time to be cutting it without alien technology. It would be idiotic to assume that only the person would be the one controlling the weapon. Manual commands are the way that the User would allow the weapon to steer into the general direction of the target (Go down the street and make a hard left, eg). The bullet itself will also have automatic systems designed to guide the weapon in ways the user cannot fully express themselves in. This is possible because the rounds are small enough that even small changes to their aerodynamic profile can result in massive changes to where it hits over a hundred meters.
With the proposed "smart munitions", A soldier would be able to use a grenade launcher that goes into a building, and then steer into a room to kill an individual. A sniper with an appropriately sized rifle could theoretically make shots through buildings or form extremely far away locations. (Armor piercing Round that goes through a building to kill an enemy, Shooting from an airplane to kill an enemy combatant. Aircraft weapon that provides sniper level accurate fire.)
It also opens up the way for automated machines, because if the user is only there to "start" the path while the computer handles everything else, the user could be eliminated in the long term.)
Far more then a grenade launcher with a airburst functionality, as this is the evolution of such a weapon that gives us ways of dealing with threats that would otherwise be impossible.
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Revision
NOTSOFT Enhanced Retention (NOTSOFTER)
By borrowing a few SAS, SEAL, and yes, even a couple Spetsnaz trainers, we hope to bring our program up to its original specifications. The apparent focus on brutality is to be discarded for a focus on efficiency and training value. Instead of raw brutality, we will have hard training regimens with a purpose. Also, there's no reason for permanent injuries in a reasonable training regimen. Whatever weird thing is causing those, we got rid of it. Strained muscles and bruises are to be expected, even broken bones if, for example. However, it should not be so traumatic as to permanently debilitate them, that's just ridiculous.
Easy : 4 + 3 +1 (8) Unexpected Boon
It turns out that bringing in outside help was exactly what the NOTSOFT program needed. The new NOTSOFTER program is a hard, fair and most importantly efficient training program, that gives our forces all the training they could potentially need on their basic set of equipment. Removing the undue harshness and injuries has dramatically increased retention rates, and has had a significant positive effect upon our forces.
In essence, the new NOTSOFTER program is the ultimate result in effective training standards. Any further improvement would neither unconventional approaches, or focus on specialization.
In other news, several of our officers have taken the opportunity to develop ties with the various organisations from which we have drawn our new trainers. Although a bureaucratic quagmire, the possibility now exists to "borrow" a few forces should we so require.
UFO DETECTED
Craft(s): Small/ Very Small
Destination: Japan
Current Trajectory : Landed, Preparing for take-off
Squads Present : 1*Sectoid, 1*Scout Drone, Mysterious Boxes
Bogey 004 and 005 were detected together, operating in a lightly populated area in Southern Japan. Thanks to local forces, we have plenty of UAV footage on the threat. Bogey 004 appears to be an ordinary UFO, the same type we've shot down twice before. Imagery indicates that the aliens are present in the same numbers as they were in Nigeria: one groups consisting of "Sectoids" and another group of silvery drones referred to as Scout Drones. Their objective too appears to be the same, the non-lethal capture of as many humans as they can find.
We appear to have caught them just as they're ending their operation. Video footage shows the Sectoid loading their UFO with humans as well as mysterious glowing boxes that we have not seen before. We can only speculate as to their purpose, but they seem important. Certainly the sectoids show more care with them as with their human captives.
Our information on Bogey 005 is limited, consisting of a single fragmented picture taken just before it blaster the UAV out of the sky. It appears to be smaller, but that's all we can say.
Craft(s): Small/ Very Small
Destination: Brazil
Current Trajectory : Low altitude, Leading for Landing
Military radar systems have spotted what we believe to be Bogey 006 and 007. They appear to be flying at low altitude, likely on final approach to land. We do not have much information, we do know that there are 2 UFO's, each the same size or smaller than the UFO's we saw last month.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
3 EP
You have now entered the Intercept phase.
Using your available resources, create as many missions as you want to attack any of the targets on the list above.
Example :
1 Raven [Intercept Bogey 001]
Or
1 Skyranger [Down and Capture Bogey 002]
1 Rookie Squad
AABBCCDD
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A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
I never expected that... nice.
We can consider sending two ravens and two Skyrangers, one in in each direction... But this looks super risky against two UFOs. I think we should let one go and send two Ravens and two Skyrangers to another. We need to get something to study.
Plan Carnaval
[Down and Capture Bogeys 006 and 007]
2 Ravens
2 Skyrangers
-2 NOTSOFTER units
Plan Carnaval (1) Strongpoint
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6 VP
3 UP
3 EP
2 Ravens and 2 Skyrangers are sent out. The Skyrangers are equipped with NOTSOFTOR troops. (Why haven't we designed any equipment?)
For 004/5, Ranger 001 and Raven 001 will be deployed. Ranger will land, and attempt to take down the UFO site of 004. the Raven will attempt to destroy 005 and then provide support for the mission against 004 afterward. A single NOTSOFTER Unit will be on standby to be picked up by the skyranger should 005 have living entities for the second engangement.
Ranger 002 and Raven 002 will attempt to attempt to down ONE UFO, and land on it, Letting the Ranger put troops down on the ground, the Raven will act essentially as gaurd, keeping the flying UFO off balance, if possible a second UFO cna be downed, but it will be bombed.
Operation Rising Storm
Plan Carnaval (1): Strongpoint
Operation Rising Storm (1):Blood_librarian
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They are taking off in Japan. We have no teleports. Chances are that single Raven will need to fight vs two UFOs in the air. Do you like the chances? I don't. Especially considering that their UFO is new, it is at least revision worth of improvement versus stock Raven
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rSR1
roseheart's Strategic Report #1Fact Sheet•They have increased UFO deployment (3 to 4)
•Not all UFOs are familiar
•Their ground forces have not shown new units
•They have new "boxes" of unknown, high value purpose
•They are aware of our drones
ExtrapolationThey have spent at least some resources on UFOs, and perhaps some creating the boxes. Since we are only at turn 2, this is all or most of what our adversary in the sky has been up to.
We must not let them leave with those boxes.
It is highly doubtful the boxes will be used to aid craft development, thus they are likely planning, satified with their UFO upgrades, to shift focus on new alien units.
I would recommend we pressure their UFOs this turn.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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2 Ravens to intercept the landing UFOs, two Skyrangers to tackle the landed ones. Those small ones are counter-interceptor/fighter UFOs, I can almost guarantee it. There's no other reason for them to deploy smaller craft.
I don't think we can order our Ravens to down the smaller ones first, otherwise I'd have them try it.... But for now:
Operation Sledgehammer
[Intercept Bogeys 006, 007]
2 Ravens
[Down and Capture Bogeys 004, 005]
2 Skyrangers
2 squads NOTSOFTER troopers
Two Ravens will hopefully be enough to bring those things down, even if they've got a new fighter. The other bogey is going to hopefully get swamped in numbers. Man I wish we had developed the armor suit.
Plan Carnaval (1): Strongpoint
Operation Rising Storm (1):Blood_librarian
Operation Sledgehammer: (1) Madman
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deleted. Thought we had more unit points.
We are taking a risk, no matter what we do.
Head to head our ground units lose, miserably.
Our aircraft "were" on par.
Any battle in the air or on land we make, we need an advantage.
I will only vote for a plan that acknowledges these realities.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Madman198237 You want to send unarmed Skyranger against an armed UFO that shot down an UAV drone, right? I want to know, how do you think, what stops it from shooting down Skyranger(s)? And what will Skyrangers do if they arrive after both UFOs are in the air?
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The most important thing is to capture the landed UFO (whilst preventing its escort from shooting down Skyrangers). The other UFOs can be put off for now.
Operation Burning Shroud
[Down and Capture Bogeys 004, 005]
1 Raven (Escort Skyrangers & Intercept escort)
3 Skyrangers
3 Squads NOTSOFTER troopers
If they developed some kind of escort (which seems likely) for their UFOs, that means they likely skimped on ground designs. Meanwhile, we greatly improved the strength of our forces - a NOTSOFTER squad should be substantially better than a NOTSOFT squad, and we can afford three times the number of squads. I'm fairly confident in ground success.
Not so much in aerospace success, which doesn't matter as much because we need to get our foot in the door alien tech-wise.
So we spend most of our efforts on making sure we can secure the ground, and also get a Raven in order to make sure our Skyrangers don't get shot down by whatever shot down the UAV.
Plan Carnaval (1): Strongpoint
Operation Rising Storm (1):Blood_librarian
Operation Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Operation Burning Shroud (1): Chiefwaffles
Sidenote: there's apparently an XCOM random mission name generator available online. Never will I run out of operation names now!
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I'm making the assumption that our guys DON'T have a built-in idiot-ball, and can decide "Hey it shoots down drones, we're going to land a little ways away, OK?"
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Plan Carnival
Pros:
-Focused attack on 006 + 007 ups %.
-Chance to get spacecraft and weapon tech.
Cons:
-004 + 005 escape with boxes, likely improving units faster.
Summary/Consequences: This plan will be a trade. Aliens WILL benefit. We, MAY benefit, possibly a lot, possibly not at all/be eliminated.
Rising Storm
This plan unfortunately is too low % to consider closely.
Sledghammer
Resources spread too thin.
Burning Shroud
I believe this to be an improved delegation of resources over Carnival. But Carnival has better priorities.
This is a bad round for us on the best of days. Yet I see no better option than a trade.
For this round to have been a positive, we'd have needed either VP and or improved Ravens to handled 2 locations.
My prayer is we can get some shield tech to add to the ravens.
Their firepower is not in question so much as their survivability.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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If they have an escort UFO patrolling the area, we'd probably have to land the Skyrangers an impractical distance away. That and I'd really rather be safe here than have our Skyrangers shot out of the sky.
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If they have an escort UFO patrolling the area
Who said anything on patrolling the area? I can't find anything like this in the GM post. I assumed that both landed, one has some kind of ground to air weapon
Important question is Why do you think that Skyrangers will reach Japan before both UFOs will take off? I think we'll need to shoot them down in any case and I am not a fan of 1 vs 2 combat in the air.
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The UFO that killed our UAV (which I am now super glad to have) would have been easily seen before the UAV's destruction if it was on the ground. What the post implies is that the UAV arrived, spent a bit of time looking at the ground and sending in footage of their ground forces + the landed UFO, then got shot out of the sky by the escort UFO. If the escort UFO was on the ground, then we should have much more than "a single fragmented picture" considering how much we know about their ground forces.
Why do you think that Skyrangers will reach Japan before both UFOs will take off?
Because:
1.) There has been no indication by Ebbor that this can happen.
2.) Skyrangers are really fast.
3.) This does not happen in X-COM UFO Defense or XCOM Enemy Unknown.
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Sledghammer
Resources spread too thin.
It....really doesn't. If anything it's unbalanced, as it provides no air support for the ground troops against a probable enemy interceptor craft. However, it undoubtedly gives us the best shot at dropping both UFOs, simply because it takes a serious shot at both of them.
Rising Storm
This plan unfortunately is too low % to consider closely.
First off, I'm assuming you mean "the chance of winning is too small", but you really ought to define this nebulous "%" thing for sure, and you also should provide reasoning behind it. Right now I'm going to just say "you're wrong", because Rising Storm is the most balanced of all the plans. It definitely takes a risk trying to force down UFOs instead of just blasting them, but whatever. If you can't justify your statements, don't make them.
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Important question is Why do you think that Skyrangers will reach Japan before both UFOs will take off?
Agreed. Japan is too far. That's why we are going to use Shroud's units and Carnival's targets.
Carnival Shroud
[Down and Capture Bogey 006 and 007]
1 Raven
3 Skyranger
3 NS Squad
Our vehicles do not intercept until 1+ UFO has landed.
The Raven will lead and distract fire from the SRs. Once the rangers have landed the Raven will abort if near destruction or continue if succeeding.
If the Raven leaves, the SRs will not leave the ground till any airborne UFO leaves.
We get home and open our shopping bag.
OPERATIONS
Carnaval (1): Strongpoint
Rising Storm (1):Blood_librarian
Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Burning Shroud (1): Chiefwaffles
Carnival Shroud (1): roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
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...that's literally the exact same thing as Burning Shroud?
Scratch that, I thought it also did 004/005. Misread it.
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...that's literally the exact same thing as Burning Shroud?
Scratch that, I thought it also did 004/005. Misread it.
Accident, corrected/correcting.
Done.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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OPERATIONS
Carnaval (2): Strongpoint, Cnidaros
Rising Storm (1):Blood_librarian
Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Burning Shroud (1): Chiefwaffles
Carnival Shroud (1): roseheart
Strongpoint has a strong point.
Why do you think that Skyrangers will reach Japan before both UFOs will take off?
Because:
1.) There has been no indication by Ebbor that this can happen.
2.) Skyrangers are really fast.
3.) This does not happen in X-COM UFO Defense or XCOM Enemy Unknown.
I am quite sure that in the original X-COM, it was entirely possible for landed UFOs to finish their missions and take off while your aircraft were still on the way there. Doubly so if you consider Japan is extremely far away from Greece. It's the Terror Missions that never disappear while your craft are en route.
Anyway, I believe the Japan UFOs are going to be gone before we get there. So best to concentrate our assets on the Brazil ones. I don't think we need 3x squads, but we'll probably need 2x Ravens to deal with 2x UFOs, since I don't want to risk 2 on 1 fighting if they've taken off when we get there.
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deleted.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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OPERATIONS
Carnaval (3): Strongpoint, Cnidaros, Happerry
Rising Storm (1):Blood_librarian
Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Burning Shroud (1): Chiefwaffles
Carnival Shroud (1): roseheart
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Ebbor, how possible is it for landed UFOs to leave before our forces arrive?
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With the Raven and the Skyranger, the chance is near-non existent. However, they may run away during the attack.
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Can the modern grenade rifles (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7649700#msg7649700) Stirk suggested be readily equipped, or would we need to spend a turn asking for them?
They're not in production anywhere, so you don't get them.
Would it take a "design turn" to produce them? Preventing other designs/revisions?
X•COM TRUSTEE
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With the Raven and the Skyranger, the chance is near-non existent. However, they may run away during the attack.
Strongpoint, Cnidaros, and Happery (and also roseheart): you got your answer.
If we go after UFOs 006 and 007, then there's the very real chance that our Ravens will have to engage in combat with the UFOs. And since 1 Raven was a bit worse (our single air victory last turn was mostly due to timing) than their starter UFO, two Ravens vs two UFOs (plus whatever they designed/revise for aerospace) will likely not go well; this leaves them free to intercept our Skyrangers.
If we go after UFOs 004 and 005, we can be 100% sure we don't have to shoot down the UFOs first to engage. We can focus our resources on infantry - the essential part, to increase our chances of winning.
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The best thing that could happen with Strongpoint's Carnival, is that our 2 ravens down 1 or both UFOs, and then our 2 skyrangers can clean up the rattled crew.
Not going to happen.
They appear to be flying at low altitude, likely on final approach to land.
Greece to Brazil is not quick either.
We need to either choose to intercept them on exit, or take them on the ground. My plan Carnival Shroud chooses the ground, and while Strongpoint's Carnival can get lucky it is simply not optimal.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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With 10ebbor10s clarification Japan does looks like a better choice because we may not need to fight with two UFOs in the air. But 1 Raven 3 Skyranger distribution doesn't look optimal in any case.
With the Raven and the Skyranger, the chance is near-non existent. However, they may run away during the attack.
But lets not ignore the bolded parts, OK?
Operation Samurai
[Down and Capture Bogeys 004 and 005]
2 Ravens
2 Skyrangers
-2 NOTSOFTER units
If landed UFO will manage to flee (or win the ground battle or that near non-existant chance will become real thing) there are a good chance that we'll have at least one intact Raven to try to shoot it down. 2 NOTSOFTER units look secure enough to win the land battle.
PS. If you insist on 1 Raven + 3 Skyrangers... then at least make it 1 Raven and 4 Skyrangers, there are no reason to not use all VP. We spent a freaking design action to get it.
OPERATIONS
Carnaval (2): Cnidaros, Happerry
Rising Storm (1):Blood_librarian
Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Burning Shroud (1): Chiefwaffles
Carnival Shroud (1): roseheart
Samurai(1):Strongpoint
The vote box is growing.
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There's literally no point to 1 Raven 4 Skyrangers because we only have enough supplies for 3 squads.
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A 2 Raven, 2 SR plan is... Overestimating the NOTSOFT improvements(we we're annihilated 1:1) ... Understimating their UFO improvements.
I believe in the NOTSOFT upgrades, but only so far as a 2:3. They may be primarily in the reduced unit cost.
Japan is a poor target. They may take off mid-fight, where that won't be an issue in Brazil.
I am eager to revise my plan, but I do not see the need.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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If they flee, that means we're likely winning. Which means we'll secure some alien tech and alien corpses/robot wreckage.
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If they flee it is probably automated as they are essentially done with their mission.
Yes, we may get some toys, but we will probably miss out on the UfOs, the real meat and potatoes.
OPERATIONS
Carnaval (2): Cnidaros, Happerry
Rising Storm (1):Blood_librarian
Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Burning Shroud (2): Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Carnival Shroud (0):
Samurai(1):Strongpoint
But I am going to vote for it.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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There's literally no point to 1 Raven 4 Skyrangers because we only have enough supplies for 3 squads.
Let me think... 4th Skyranger can be a decoy, rangers can carry 1\4th of a unit each, empty ranger may replace one damaged during landing\fight, etc.
It is of minor effectiveness (that is why I prefer plan that Uses all VPs, it is more efficient just because of that) but it can't hurt.
I believe in the NOTSOFT upgrades, but only so far as a 2:3. They may be primarily in the reduced unit cost.
Their second UFO looks like a combat focused design and likely has a reduced crew with at least some of it staying in the combat focused UFO to operate it. I expect a healthy numerical advantage in units with two NOTSOFTER units
If they flee, that means we're likely winning. Which means we'll secure some alien tech and alien corpses/robot wreckage.
If they flee, they'll likely flee with some captured civilians on board giving them more resources. As we already (out of necessity) letting one of their missions to go through, we can't give a partial success on another one.
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OPERATIONS
Carnaval (1): Happerry
Rising Storm (1):Blood_librarian
Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Burning Shroud (2): Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Carnival Shroud (0):
Samurai(1):Strongpoint, Cnidaros
On the new information by ebbor I'm changing my vote. Sending just one Raven seems too risky, as if the other UFO (is it currently flying around?) gets off a lucky shot and downs it our Skyrangers will be easy prey.
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On the new information by ebbor I'm changing my vote. Sending just one Raven seems too risky, as if the other UFO (is it currently flying around?) gets off a lucky shot and downs it our Skyrangers will be easy prey.
It is a bad gambling here. We are basically betting on a single fighter winning the fight. If it loses its fight, it is unimportant how many Skyrangers we send, 2,3 or 10
If we send two fighters the worst thing that can happen > we lose land battle but still turn both UFOs in wrecks by airforce and prevent them from delivering stuff to their base. No, there are a possibility that they'l be able to shoot both fighters but in that case we can be sure that one would lose, too, so such worst case is irrelevant
The worst thing that can happen if we send one fighter - we get everything shot down and enemy brings everything home. We won't even get a ground combat footage like we did last turn.
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Fewer plans and more decisiveness may be neat.
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Fewer plans and more decisiveness may be neat.
Well, I think Happery's vote can be count as half for a purpose of a tie breaker. It differs only in the destination and we can be fairly certain that he will switch the vote when he'll be online
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And indeed, I am switching my vote.
OPERATIONS
Carnaval (0):
Rising Storm (1):Blood_librarian
Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Burning Shroud (2): Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Carnival Shroud (0):
Samurai(3):Strongpoint, Cnidaros, Happerry
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OPERATIONS
Carnaval (0):
Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Burning Shroud (3): Chiefwaffles, roseheart, Blahd Librarios
Carnival Shroud (0):
Samurai(3):Strongpoint, Cnidaros, Happerry
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I think we can all compromise and take Strongpoints suggestion to send an extra 4th SkyRanger(empty, or with 3 units dispersed if possible).
"Show Time"
[Down and Capture Bogey 004 and 005]
1 Raven
4 Skyranger
3 NS Squad (dispersed evenly in 4 SR if possible)
OPERATIONS
Carnaval (0):
Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Burning Shroud (3): Chiefwaffles, roseheart, Blahd Librarios
Carnival Shroud (0):
Samurai (3): Strongpoint, Cnidaros, Happerry
Show Time (0):
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I think we can all compromise and take Strongpoints suggestion to send an extra 4th SkyRanger(empty, or with 3 units dispersed if possible.
I think it is not a compromise at all. No, I do think that in that case Burning shroud will be slightly less awful but impact is very marginal and it doesn't make the plan to look more the other disqualifying it as a compromise.
In my opinion Burning Shroud:
1)Is inefficient way to use available resources (doesn't use all VPs available),
2)Too risky (creates a very real possibility of total defeat with no gains),
3)Improves enemy chances to run away leaving scraps in bodies and drone remains AND getting rewards for partially successful mission
4) Gives us a very small chance of consolation in a form of two burning UFO wrecks should we lose the land battle
5) Gives no advantages other than slightly better chance of winning the land battle (and I am unsure that even this is the case if we account for the cases when Rangers will be shot down)
Hell, I'll prefer to send two interceptors to Brazil and one two Japan (or three interceptors in one direction) and don't try land battle to sending almost unescorted transports
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deleted. May aswell use this post for this:
Can the modern grenade rifles (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7649700#msg7649700) Stirk suggested be readily equipped, or would we need to spend a turn asking for them?
They're not in production anywhere, so you don't get them.
Would it take a "design turn" to produce them? Preventing other designs/revisions?
GM see last part please.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Let's move on. We are playing a game after all.
OPERATIONS
Carnaval (0):
Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Burning Shroud (2): Chiefwaffles, Blahd Librarios
Carnival Shroud (0):
Samurai (4): Strongpoint, Cnidaros, Happerry, roseheart
Show Time (0):
X•COM TRUSTEE
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OPERATIONS
Carnaval (0):
Sledgehammer (1): Madman
Burning Shroud (2): Chiefwaffles, Blahd Librarios
Carnival Shroud (0):
Samurai (5): Strongpoint, Cnidaros, Happerry, roseheart, Stabby
Show Time (0):
I'm going with Samurai simply cause the appear to have a escort and I'll rather not risk only having one fighter in the air.
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Would it take a "design turn" to produce them? Preventing other designs/revisions?
It's basically a design. Or a revision, if you want something simple.
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Battle
Craft(s): Small/ Very Small
Destination: Japan
Current Trajectory : Landed, Preparing for take-off
Squads Present : 1*Sectoid, 1*Scout Drone, Mysterious Boxes
Operation Samurai
[Down and Capture Bogeys 004 and 005]
2 Ravens
2 Skyrangers
-2 NOTSOFTER units
Night is falling when our interception force finally nears the AO. Suddenly, verdiscant plasma fire bursts from the clouds. Our pilots change course immediately, only narrowly avoiding the massive plasma barrage. Up close, our pilots can see the rather noticeable design differences. This UFO appears to be far smaller, and clearly has far more weaponry. In addition, it has a weird resemblance to some Earth craft, having actual wings within it's circular shape. As it turns to chase one of our interceptors, the other gets behind it and manages to launch missiles.
Two explosions blossom in the night sky. One of them must have damaged a vital component, as the UFO suddenly drops from the sky, and tumbles down into the pacific.
The Skyrangers roar overhead the ufo site not long thereafter. With twice as many soldiers, and better training, our forces are more motivated than ever. Soon enough, plasma bolts and burning debris light the battlefield, amidst the sounds of gunfire and explosions. The enemies drones repeat their ambush strategy, but more men mean less success. Lightly armored as they are, they can be taken out easily if one's alert. The Sectoids remain a bigger problem. Not only do they show a stunning awareness of where our forces are, but they appear to be tougher and stronger too. Even so, they're not bulletproof, and so our forces press despite heavy losses.
As our forces close in upon the enemy, they manage a succesful retreat back to their UFO, locking us out. Available explosives are insufficient. The hull appears to be to thick for what explosives have available, and the weird energy shields that protect the entrances refuse our passage. As the UFO takes of slowly, we have no choice but to call in the Raven's to take it down. Three missiles rip through UFO, and the entire thing crashes to the ground.
Mission Success : Loot : 1 VP token, 1 Alien Alloy Token, 1 Alien equipment token
Explanation : VP tokens can be applied to anything that uses VP. You then get 1 VP of that thing for free, every turn. The alien Alloy and equipment tokens can be applied to design and revisions to get a bonus, provided it is relevant.
Analysis
The Raven remains an effective, if expensive interceptor. It's missiles load-out is very effective against current generation UFO's. Firing and hitting first is however a priority. The Raven is likely to suffer critical damage even from a single hit from a small UFO, let alone from the larger barrages their new fighter fires.
The skyranger is a troop transport.
NotSOFTER is an effective strategy. However, our lack of advanced equipment is so far mitigated only by a strange desire of our enemy not to wear any sort of armor, or even clothing. Given the armor technology of their UFO's, they could certainly deploy armor we can not penetrate with current infantry weaponry.
Craft(s): Small/ Very Small
Destination: Brazil
Current Trajectory : Low altitude, Leading for Landing
With no attempt of interception, the Bogey 006 and 007 are able to land and kidnap the population of an entire small village, minus 1 small hidden child. Her testimony spreads rapidly through international media, provoking international condemnation.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
3 EP
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Design Phasa
Challenge: You get 1 bonus design for a new mission type.
AABBCCDD
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How about this
Jackdaw (interceptor)
A interceptor design with new information obtained both from from our returning Ravens and crashed UFOs, Using small layers of alien alloy as armour.
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Design Strategy Musings...
-If we make armor we can take landed UFOs easier.
-If we make explosive weapons we can take escaping UFOs easier.
-If we improve Raven survivability we can send fewer to a location with comparable results.
-If we decrease Raven cost we can send multiple to different locations easier.
-If we increase UP we can overwhelm more easily.
Revision of Info...
Fact Sheet
•They have increased UFO deployment (3 to 4)
•Not all UFOs are familiar
•Their ground forces have not shown new units
•They have new "boxes" of unknown, high value purpose
•They are aware of our recon drones
•They can see our troop locations (unknown if telepathic or surveillance such as the battle drones)
•Their battlefield drones ambush
•Sectoid are tougher and stronger
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I think we should focus on creating new things this design phase, such as something to put our EP to use, which are currently collecting dust.
If something could be done as a revision, it should be.
Alien Containment and Arc Thrower
We simply do not know our enemy, especially their telepathic abilities.
If we capture 1 we can study it to better understand what we are dealing with. (We need to go down this route earlier, rather than later)
X•COM TRUSTEE
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This is assuming that A: We managed to take down alien combatants who had guns that were intact in addition to the wreckage we found. (We did fight briefly around the UFO before it got shot down, right?)
We need our troops to survive the first contact with the enemy, after that, we can deal with bagging and tagging them alive.
My plan is to Design Marine Armor and then Revise a new set of armor for the Raven.
Xeno Ceramics
Things are not completely bleak, commander. Although our first attempts at manipulating the Alien Alloys has failed, (It had to go down to getting an "Engineers" laser lathe to cut it into a small enough piece to analyze.) We have already made discoveries that would revolutionize traditional material sciences by leaps and bounds. To that end, We have used the enemies recovered weapons to test how well traditional armors would predictably fare; Miserably. However, by using plates designed to handle the thermal shock of the enemies standard weapons, we have managed to create a set of armor that decreases the chance of death or severe maiming by as much as thirty percent. This extreme success is accomplished by custom fabricating ceramics with the tiny beads of Alien Alloys we could chip off recovered material. The Beads are then deposited into the Cermaics-making Progress, resulting in a plate with no terrestrial parallel in terms of heat resistance. The plates, which are around two inches in diameter, are promptly layered over a heat-resistant metal alloy to form a ballistic weave that can in some cases take a direct hit from an alien weapon and survive. Combined with a fire retardant undersuit often worn by Firefighters, we have managed to manufacture the first generation of Xenomaterials into a combat-ready set of armor.
Kessel Plate-Mail Armor
An undersuit of fire-retardant "traditional" materials combined with a plate carrier, kneepads, helmet and vambraces made from Xeno-Ceramic Materials designed to give our soldiers a fighting chance of surviving low powered plasma weapons.
XenoCeramics(1):Blood_Librarian
AC&AT(1):Roseheart
Jackdaw(1):Stabby
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OK. lesson is to not ignore enemy missions because it is bad for PR. Better take risks of a failure.
Any good ideas for a new type of mission? I think something-something coordinate with armed forces is a good route to take thanks to the the last turn boon, but can't come with any kind of clear proposal.
10ebbor10
What costs E? Can new guns\missiles for aircrafts cost E or will they just increase the cost of those in V? Will IFV costing low enough to be fitted in a skyranger cost V or E?
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Alright, but we cannot delay after this. The enemy knows our battlefield locations, and capturing a sectoid 2 rounds from now may be an entirely different animal.
XenoCeramics(1):Blood_Librarian, Roseheart
AC&AT(0):
Jackdaw(1):Stabby
Take a moment to appreciate that XCOM Arms Race is progressing much faster than the games. We need to be thinking much further ahead than those to not only keep up, but over take our enemy and eliminate them.
Hopefully, the materials from the armor can be revised for the jets without too much trouble.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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The rules vary a bit depending on interpretation, but usually it goes like this :
1) If it's used to move a unit, it's a vehicle, and costs VP
2) If it's used to strengthen a unit, it's equipment, and costs EP
3) If it's a thing that does stuff, it's a unit, and costs UP.
So, depending on the fluff, you can get certain results. If you revise the Raven to get better guns, it's likely to increase it's VP. If instead, you create a gun package that can be attached to the Raven, or other vehicles, it's VP. Combinations are possible too, as are alternatives. For example, the SHIV from XCOM may very well cost either EP or UP.
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Actually if we are going to make 1 equipment and 1 vehicle upgrade this turn. We should design low VP vehicle upgrade, and revise armor. We have the EP(so far unused) to smudge the ladder.
GM question: how do we get countries back, isn't that the the council's job?
X•COM TRUSTEE
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GM question: how do we get countries back, isn't that the the council's job?
You design some kind of trust building mission profile, like taking out alien bases or kidnapping corrupted heads of states or something like that.
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Vague idea
Mission profile: supply allies
This mission profile uses available resources to supply governments with X-com technologies and equipment: Cost E or V which will be unavailable for this turn missions.
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"Avoid what is strong and and strike at what is weak".
—Sun Tzu
Are bases weak? They are not.
Are corrupted polititions weak? Yes.
Covert Operations
This operation usually involves sending ground forces to take advantage of intel, supplied by the world's intelligence agencies and our own.
This is important now because we won't even know about this activity unless we are prepared. We will be catching the enemy off guard, so these should be easier than UFO based missions.
GM is this a valid mission profile?
X•COM TRUSTEE
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GM is this a valid mission profile?
It's vague.
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Alright, thanks.
[Surprise and Capture]
Ground forces take on an unsuspecting target, such as a corrupted vip or "suspicious activity" in progress.
Better?
or..
Ground forces take on an unsuspecting target, such as kidnapping a corrupted vip in a vulnerable situation or infiltrating "suspicious activity" in progress, as soon as they are detected.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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[Surprise and Capture]
A covert mission profile where the enemy is caught off guard, such as kidnapping a corrupted vip when vulnerable, or intercepting xeno activity in urban areas as soon as it is detected.
XenoCeramics(1):Blood_Librarian
AC&AT(0):
Jackdaw(1):Stabby
Surprise&Capture(1):roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Advanced Alien-Combating Equipment (ACE)
Made of an improved polymeric fiber (Like Kevlar but less prone to getting denatured) that's highly resistant to heat, and with a set of small, thin, scale-like plates covering the vitals and head, made of ceramics similar to those used on the Space Shuttle (The not-fragile ones used on later flights), this armor promises to be much, much better at keeping our soldiers alive. The helmet covers a lot of the head and has a thin Plexiglas faceplate, and has two small cameras and a powerful light. The smaller camera is a simple visual-wavelength camera, above which is mounted the light. The other camera is mounted on the opposite side of the helmet, and operates in infrared. It comes with an integrated Land Warrior-based HUD (projected onto the faceplate in a configuration chosen by the soldier) and battlefield-control system uplink package, as well as the wrist-mounted buttons to control it. The LW system is reprogrammed to accept data from the soldier's camera systems, as well as drone feeds and feeds from the rest of his squad when desired. The radio broadcasts are retransmitted by the transport craft, allowing Command to show objectives on the HUD.
I'd prefer something like TAV to be the next design, basically taking this from an advanced Land Warrior to something much, much more powerful, capable of displaying things from others' points of view as an overlay, i.e., classic sci-fi see-them-through-the-wall stuff.
ESPECIALLY if we make a fly-sized drone with cameras.
XenoCeramics(1):Blood_Librarian
AC&AT(0):
Jackdaw(1):Stabby
Surprise&Capture(1):roseheart
ACE: (1) Madman
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Seems good. Perhaps if Down and Capture can be revised to create Surprise and Capture, then we can do both ACE and S&C.
Consider adding a grapple.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I'm going to write up a tactics design here shortly. Do remember that we have an EXTRA design for a new mission type this turn, which means we HAVE to design some equipment since we so sorely lack infantry capabilities. So, separate your votes into the proper categories!
Regular Designs
XenoCeramics(1):Blood_Librarian
Jackdaw(1):Stabby
ACE: (1) Madman
Tactics Design
Surprise&Capture(1):roseheart
I'm not really sure what AC&AT is, it doesn't mention anything. Is it a tactic, or a piece of equipment (What's the "Arc Thrower" part of this mess?)? It has no fluff.
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They are from newcom atleast, tasers basically.
Regular Designs
XenoCeramics(1):Blood_Librarian
Jackdaw(1):Stabby
ACE(2):Madman, roseheart
Mission Design
Surprise&Capture(1):roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Alright, we seem to have gotten a good victory here. Some ideas:
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle (using Alien Equipment Token)
By studying the recovered alien weapons, our scientists and engineers attempt to understand the principles of plasma weaponry and replicate it for X-COM troopers to use. The first attempt at such a weapon is not ambitious, copying its mechanisms from alien examples with only minor changes where necessary for humans to wield them.
Could break into the field of plasma weapons early. Given that it's pretty clearly telegraphed in the report that the aliens have subpar (no) armour, we can expect them to revise their own alien alloy armor, so this forestalls that for next turn.
"Mosquito" Combat Drone (using Alien Alloy and Alien Equipment Tokens)
A medium sized quadcopter, either connected by satellite uplink to its controllers back at base, or to local operators in the Skyranger. The drone is equipped with two weapons: a dartgun that fires syringe darts filled with either tranquilisers or poisons; and a taser that fires electrodes. Where necessary, downed alien scout drones are disassembled for inspiration as to how to fit all these systems together in a reasonably small drone. Alternatively, both weapons can be replaced with a single light machinegun. Alien alloy is also used in the quadcopter frame and blades, hopefully allowing it to take one or two plasma shots instead of going down immediately when hit. In combat, the drones are primarily intended to capture alien combatants, and support our troopers if needed.
Because it'll be funny to steal their scout drone idea and do it better than them. Also, as roseheart said, we need to get around to capturing some of them sometime. Using AA armour here will also give us experience in shaping it for a later soldier armour design that's ergonomic.
Mission Type: Combined Arms
This mission emphasises the synergy of air assets and ground troops. While our troops conduct the ground assault, aircraft overhead fire extra missiles into the grounded UFO, breaching a hole for our troops to storm it. Additional fire, either in the form of missiles or strafing runs, can be called down on enemy positions by commanders on the ground, who have direct communication to HQ and the pilots for better coordination. If the reconnaissance UAV is still airborne, it is used by command staff to update ground commanders on the tactical situation.
Basically get air support, and breach that UFO. Hopefully those missiles aren't nuclear? Also kind of fixes the recon UAV idea from earlier, as I thought it would help our battle tactics to have aerial recon, but it doesn't seem to be doing that.
Edit: Votebox:
Regular Designs
XenoCeramics(1):Blood_Librarian
Jackdaw(1):Stabby
ACE(2):Madman, roseheart
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle (0):
Mosquito Combat Drone (1): Cnidaros
Mission Design
Surprise&Capture(1):roseheart
Combined Arms(1): Cnidaros
Surprise and Capture is super vague, and it seems like what we are already doing. I mean, I assume we are doing our best to catch them off-guard by intercepting their missions as soon as we detect them, and I assume we're not putting in calls to Ethereal HQ to warn them. Unless you mean stuff like setting the Skyranger down further away and infiltrating on foot?
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Mission Type: Combined Arms
This mission emphasises the synergy of air assets and ground troops. While our troops conduct the ground assault, the Raven overhead fires extra missiles into the grounded UFO, breaching a hole for our troops to storm it. Additional fire can be called down on enemy positions by commanders on the ground, who have direct communication to HQ and the pilots for better coordination. If the reconnaissance UAV is still airborne, it is used by command staff to update ground commanders on the tactical situation.
This can be achieved by revising down and capture. I am not a fan of wasting a design action on it.
Regular Designs
XenoCeramics(1):Blood_Librarian
Jackdaw(1):Stabby
ACE(2):Madman, roseheart
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle (0):
Mosquito Combat Drone (2): Cnidaros, Strongpoint
Mission Design
Surprise&Capture(1):roseheart
Combined Arms(1): Cnidaros
On other hand I like drone idea, the only part that worries me is satellite uplink. They may leave us without sattelites quite easily
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Surprise and Capture is super vague, and it seems like what we are already doing.
Perhaps it was, but with the GMs help it isn't now. We won't even be informed about their activities outside of abductions if we don't ask for and are able to respond to that information.
GM question: how do we get countries back, isn't that the the council's job?
You design some kind of trust building mission profile, like taking out alien bases or kidnapping corrupted heads of states or something like that.
This stuff is happening. Our UFO based missions do not suffice for this problem.
Regular Designs
XenoCeramics(1): Blood_Librarian
Jackdaw(1): Stabby
ACE(1): Madman
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle(0):
Mosquito Combat Drone(3): Cnidaros, Strongpoint, roseheart
Mission Design
Surprise&Capture(1): roseheart
Combined Arms(1): Cnidaros
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I really love the drone idea... But I think it can be done better. And I don't think that capturing aliens should be our focus ATM. And I am worried that they got the same info from GM > guys, you need armor. Neither I think that we need to focus on improving infantry. We need to make versatile designs that help us everywhere.
X-R-Drone (using both tokens)
X-R drone is a really small jet aircraft. Unmanned jet aircraft. It can be controlled either through satellite uplink or from nearby Skyranger. It is armed with a high caliber automatic cannon with AP bullets and have an underfuselage mount for a single avalanche, air to ground missile, or a bunker buster bomb modified to punch through roofs of enemy UFOs. X-Rs have brand new jet engines, built with the use of new alien derived alloys and advanced electronic suite built by using experience from disassembling enemy scout drones. X-Rs are fast and have high payload, unfortunately that comes for a cost of a small range. Fortunately new system is developed that allows X-Rs to be attached on Skyranger fuselage and launched when needed. X-R drone is capable to both engage with enemy UFOs and provide ground support for X-COM squads. (Can be bought with either V(Suffers from reduced range) or E (need Skyranger to transport it, that Skyranger still can carry troops))
Such design is flexible and helps us anywhere. It gives us tons of useful experience for airforce and drone construction. It gives anti-armor weapon for our squads. It is something that is extremely hard to shot down with plasma pistol because jet speed is a jet speed, you need a dedicated AA weapon to shoot it down. It goes great with ground attack missions should we create one. It even gives Skyranger some weapon to defend itself.
10ebbor10 Is such V\E cost scheme legal?
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A covert mission profile where the enemy is caught off guard, such as kidnapping a corrupted vip when vulnerable, or intercepting "suspicious activity" as soon as it is detected.
A covert mission profile where the enemy is caught off guard, such as kidnapping a corrupted vip when vulnerable, or intercepting xeno activity in urban areas as soon as it is detected.
Edited the original, as has only my vote.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Guys, are problem is presently the inability to survive contact with the enemy, in addition to our possibly-coming inability to kill them. Personally I think if they've got some sort of miracle alloy that's indestructible to bullets on an infantry scale, it should be impossible for anything short of a nuclear weapon to down their vessels, yet we're clearly NOT using nuclear missiles (EMP would down our own planes' control systems, which makes them incredibly hard to fly).
Ebbor, did we figure out what the silver crates were?
Hostile Engagement Location Protocol
By contacting the nations bogeys are descending towards, we can potentially have a heavily-armed reception committee of anti-ballistic-missile missiles, tanks, air force assets, and soldiers prepared to engage the UFOs before or immediately after landing. If an XCOM mission is en route to engage the targeted bogey(s), the nation will be asked to withhold the attack until and unless the XCOM mission fails, or needs heavy support to prevent the UFO's escape. Otherwise, the nation's forces will be expected to engage the vessels ASAP.
While we can really only expert world-class militaries to fight off a UFO insertion, this gives us the option to turn those militaries against our enemies, instead of having them be inexplicably unavailable for the whole "defending-the-world" thing. At worst, this will put a solid time limit on the enemy---if they wait long enough for the armored platoons to start rolling in, or the airstrikes to get scrambled, they lose by default. At best, we should be able to leave entire sections of the world (Specifically North America and Europe) alone most of the time. I don't care how advanced your weaponry is, if we can down you with fancy missiles the rest of the world's militaries can down you with slightly less fancy missiles in much, much greater numbers. Also, it forms a basis for this revision:
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles
The world happens to have a lot of ballistic missile interceptor missiles, such as the THAAD system deployed by the US Military. UFOs enter the atmosphere at high speeds, from high altitude (duh). Ballistic missiles do the same. A simple adjustment to the missiles' tracking systems (To track entire flying-saucer bogeys, instead of tiny MIRV warheads) allows us to shoot down bogeys with style, with no pilots or incredibly expensive jets at risk---just somewhat expensive missiles that have been in production since the Cold War.
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Guys, are problem is presently the inability to survive contact with the enemy, in addition to our possibly-coming inability to kill them.
Our main problem is that we have serious problems with intercepting all UFOs...
Also, I suspect the enemy got the same message from GM > your armor is inadequate and they will create us problems here.
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10ebbor10 Is such V\E cost scheme legal?
It's possible for a design to use either V points or E points. I wont guarantee I'll give it to you like that.
Ebbor, did we figure out what the silver crates were?
Oh, I forgot to mention those.
They were recovered, sealed. Opening them revealed a bunch of organic and inorganic elements at roughly 2000 Kelvin. Speculation is either a novelty space heater or something that was equipped with a self destruct.
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I would vote for armor (if it used the alloys token) but we are dangerously close to the aliens easily beating us at ground:
However, our lack of advanced equipment is so far mitigated only by a strange desire of our enemy not to wear any sort of armor, or even clothing. Given the armor technology of their UFO's, they could certainly deploy armor we can not penetrate with current infantry weaponry.
We should probably make sure this can't happen.
I'm okay with any type of weapon other than plasma, really, if people want to avoid mimicking XCOM too much. I'd also be willing to write out the designs for different types of weapons if people give me the base concept.
Design: XH1 Laser Rifle (Use Equipment Token)
While studying the principles of plasma used by the aliens is still a bit too ambitious for us, we can learn from their weapons and equipment. We can't decipher how the weapons generate and maintain a cohesive bolt of plasma (and many other parts of the weapons) but we can learn how they store enough power to do so.
The alien batteries may not even be the primary method of power generation in their equipment, but tests in the laboratory reveal that they're more than good enough to fit lethal laser generation in a rifle-sized package using these alien batteries.
The XH1 Laser Rifle will be extremely accurate and able to pierce their alloys based on some tests. We also hope that sustained use of it will be able to eventually cut through alien hulls, but that's not a particular design goal.
DESIGN
XenoCeramics(1): Blood_Librarian
Jackdaw(1): Stabby
ACE(1): Madman
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle(0):
Mosquito Combat Drone(3): Cnidaros, Strongpoint, roseheart
XH1 Laser Rifle (1): Chiefwaffles
MISSION DESIGN
Surprise&Capture(1): roseheart
Combined Arms(1): Cnidaros
Hostile Engagement Location Protocol (1): Chiefwaffles
PSEUDOEDIT:
Okay so the silver crates are definitely Meld. If we want to mess around with genetics/cool cybernetic soldiers we should look into successfully securing the stuff.
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I would vote for armor (if it used the alloys token) but we are dangerously close to the aliens easily beating us at ground:
We can either not kill them and not die, or we can maybe-hopefully kill them on a good roll, and die like them (Since our Kevlar is apparently useless against things including tranquilizers and tasers).
Our soldiers should already be using things like grenade launchers and rifles, we can specifically equip them with HEAT grenades for their underslung grenade launchers or some such if necessary.
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I if we are going to consider weapons, let's ask Stirk.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Well, laser rifle is cliche and by the game... but it is still a good thing and leads to laser weapons for aircrafts. And we can revise modern combat armor with alien alloys to improve our armor. Or revise Ravens using alloys. If I'll get no votes for X-R drone anytime soon, I'll probably switch to laser rifle.
Is that hostile engagement mission thing meant to straight replace down and capture? It doesn't even look like a mission but more like a passive benefit. I think it is good, I don't think it is a mission.
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Proper alien armor would probably protect them (at least partially) from grenades as well, and generally speaking you don't want your only option of damaging to be grenades.
I'd rather be able to kill them at all even if some of our soldiers die, then not be able to kill them at all.
Strongpoint: I could also make a design for a railgun semi-soon if that works better.
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One of reasons I want X-R-Drone > we are getting VP token, our current options are either spend it on Skyranger (and have free skyranger for the rest of the game) or design something that cost 1VP. I prefer the latter.
X-R drone does help if they'll field some big armored thing, it helps to get inside UFO, it helps to protect the skies. Infantry equipment just make us fight better on the land.
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DESIGN
XenoCeramics(1): Blood_Librarian
Jackdaw(0):
ACE(1): Madman
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle(0):
Mosquito Combat Drone(4): Cnidaros, Strongpoint, roseheart, Stabby
XH1 Laser Rifle (1): Chiefwaffles
MISSION DESIGN
Surprise&Capture(1): roseheart
Combined Arms(1): Cnidaros
Hostile Engagement Location Protocol (2): Chiefwaffles, Stabby
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Mosquito has two problems - satellite signal may be jammed (or they'll destroy satellites) and more importantly what the hell will it do against armored opponents?
Hostile engagement protocol doesn't look like a mission for me. Besides combined arms work with X-R well
DESIGN
XenoCeramics(1): Blood_Librarian
Jackdaw(0):
ACE(1): Madman
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle(0):
Mosquito Combat Drone(3): Cnidaros, roseheart, Stabby
X-R-Drone (1): Strongpoint,
XH1 Laser Rifle (1): Chiefwaffles
MISSION DESIGN
Surprise&Capture(1): roseheart
Combined Arms(2): Cnidaros, Strongpoint
Hostile Engagement Location Protocol (2): Chiefwaffles, Stabby
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GM, how are the current mission proposals looking, in terms of being valid submissions?
X•COM TRUSTEE
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HELP is a mission in that is assigns an asset (friendly military units, who should be more than happy to help us prevent their citizens from getting killed) to a goal (Support XCOM and/or take down bogeys on their own).
Strongpoint, we should assign that token to the Skyranger, since we KNOW we'll basically ALWAYS be using it. The drone will be a good thing to have, but what if they counter it? With the Skyranger, we *might* eventually upgrade it, but probably not (We should use a piece of equipment if we fear contact with enemy armor units, and the Ranger can deliver anyone anywhere in plenty of time).
As for not doing armor....Our guys are incredibly well trained. They can make the shots necessary to kill an armored enemy. Also, again, we DO have rocket launchers and grenade launchers, or we should have them, and so if we protect them, they'll get the job done.
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If combined arms is a valid mission type, then the scope of this game just blew it's cap.
This is no longer about a covert team and units performing precision missions. It's about large battlefields with terran and extraterrestrial craft in open war.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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If combined arms is a valid mission type, then the scope of this game just blew it's cap.
This is no longer about a covert team and units performing precision missions. It's about large battlefields with terran and extraterrestrial craft in open war.
I see no reason to keep the scale small if the enemy has a tech advantage. Instead of desperately playing catch up, we'll force them to desperately play dodgeball...with tank shells. There's no reason to keep it covert---nations have heard of the abductions, they know the aliens are out there, let's give them the opportunity to help us help them.
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Seems like we are playing world politics, which should be out of our scope.
We are not the president of a nation or seated on the United Nations. We are the people hired to take care of things, discreetly.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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My point is that that makes no logical sense, and we're under no obligation (At present) to do things in a stupid manner. If I can have even the POSSIBILITY of a tank column rolling in to gun down the enemy's new floaty armored things, I'm going to try for it, instead of saying "Oh well, they're abducting people and literally everyone knows about it but WE MUST KEEP IT QUIET!"
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It doesn't make sense we are not a president/UN member?
I like the idea of a twist. But we should not be able to make that mission, is my only commentary.
We should seek every advantage, so I await the GM's response.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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A covert mission profile where the enemy is caught off guard, such as kidnapping a corrupted vip when vulnerable, or intercepting xeno activity in urban areas as soon as it is detected.
This one appears to try 2 different things at once. One thing trying to eliminate alien infiltration, the other trying to ambush regular landings. That's not quite valid.
Mission Type: Combined Arms
This mission emphasises the synergy of air assets and ground troops. While our troops conduct the ground assault, the Raven overhead fires extra missiles into the grounded UFO, breaching a hole for our troops to storm it. Additional fire can be called down on enemy positions by commanders on the ground, who have direct communication to HQ and the pilots for better coordination. If the reconnaissance UAV is still airborne, it is used by command staff to update ground commanders on the tactical situation.
This is valid.
Hostile Engagement Location Protocol
By contacting the nations bogeys are descending towards, we can potentially have a heavily-armed reception committee of anti-ballistic-missile missiles, tanks, air force assets, and soldiers prepared to engage the UFOs before or immediately after landing. If an XCOM mission is en route to engage the targeted bogey(s), the nation will be asked to withhold the attack until and unless the XCOM mission fails, or needs heavy support to prevent the UFO's escape. Otherwise, the nation's forces will be expected to engage the vessels ASAP.
Mission profiles are about XCOM deploys it's forces. Not about how it deploys forces that aren't theirs while they go off enjoying themselves elsewhere. In addition, the setting here is XCOM. That means small squads and engagements, not major army movements. Asking help (within those restrictions) is fine.
Do note the same setting restrictions prevents the enemy from just nuking you from orbit.
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DESIGN
XenoCeramics(1): Blood_Librarian
Jackdaw(0):
ACE(1): Madman
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle(0):
Mosquito Combat Drone(3): Cnidaros, roseheart, Stabby
X-R-Drone (1): Strongpoint,
XH1 Laser Rifle (1): Chiefwaffles
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms(3): Cnidaros, Strongpoint, roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
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What about this one?
Design: XH1 Railgun Rifle (Alien Equipment Token)
The XH1 Railgun Rifle, being based off of the advanced power supplies we don't know much about yet (but enough to use), is a miniaturization of modern railgun technology. The reverse engineering of alien equipment is the final change we needed for this to happen.
It's semi-automatic and is intended to be used by marksmen and snipers - we've decided to not bother trying to implement an automatic firing mechanism or decrease the length of the barrel even further in order to keep difficulty down.
XenoCeramics(1): Blood_Librarian
Jackdaw(0):
ACE(1): Madman
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle(0):
Mosquito Combat Drone(3): Cnidaros, roseheart, Stabby
X-R-Drone (1): Strongpoint,
XH1 Laser Rifle (1): Chiefwaffles
XH1 Railgun Rifle (1): Chiefwaffles
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (4): Cnidaros, Strongpoint, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Edit: I'd like to re-emphasize that if the aliens upgrade their armor, our soldiers will become useless. What's the point of having skilled ground soldiers if they literally can't do damage to the enemy?
EDIT2: And again, it's a really bad idea to let your enemies armor go to the point where you need really lucky shots or explosives to even hurt them.
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They are probably gonna upgrade there weapons and thena rmor before anything. Right now we need to get our soldiers to actually survive fighting befor anything else. I'dve preferred we either designed/revised a set of armor before anything else, but focussing on aircraft is alright.
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Ebbor straight up told us that we're only winning because they don't have armor. Do you think he didn't tell them that as well? They're almost definitely going to upgrade their armor. I'd prefer if our ground forces can actually hurt the enemy before we branch out into other things.
And reminder that any new weapons can also be applied to our airforce.
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I'd rather not go straight into laser or energy weapons first though, if anything, I would go for larger chemical weapons that use a basic exoskeleton to prevent bone breakage, or anything more creative then "ding dong laser gun."
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I literally just made a design for a railgun.
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Our avalanche missiles are combat effective.
The ravens need either evasion or protection.
Combined Arms should help with the ground issue. So improving our battlefield awareness, and catching up with the enemy, is our priority.
Also I like giving them a mechanical enemy to complicate their problems.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Edit: I'd like to re-emphasize that if the aliens upgrade their armor, our soldiers will become useless.
Hey! I am usually the one who is overly worried about worst case scenarios. Don't take my job! :D
I think you are overestimating possible effect of their possible armor. We may have harder time but definitely not combats we can't win at all.
If we go combined arms for the mission, I want the drone + revise modern armor with alien alloys.
If we go for a railgun sniper rifle, then I really want a different mission. Something like this:
Surround and siege
Instead of trying to storm enemy in close quarters, X-Com operatives land nearby, surround the enemy and starting eliminating them from a safe distance using mortars, high caliber machineguns, sniper rifles. This continues till aliens decide to get back in their UFO and retreat. Then they are shot down by air force and\or (potential at this point) manpads in the hands of X-COM operatives.
Look. They have pistols and melee drones. Why the hell we need to go close? If they want to go close, let them advance. We may need more long range equipment to make it really effective, but I think it can work, thoughts?
In any case I think designs should be linked. IMO, If we go for combined arms we need something that directly helps that. If we go for Mosquito we need a capture alien alive mission (IMO, too early for this). If we go for a sniper rail gun, we go for the one above, if we go armor, we should go for something that benefits from armor.
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XenoCeramics(1): Blood_Librarian
Jackdaw(0):
ACE(1): Madman
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle(0):
Mosquito Combat Drone(3): Cnidaros, roseheart, Stabby
X-R-Drone (1): Strongpoint,
XH1 Laser Rifle (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
XH1 Railgun Rifle (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (4): Cnidaros, Strongpoint, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
We're already having enough trouble winning that if they roll out Alloy Armor of their own, we'll end up in big trouble if we don't have a firepower upgrade. Meanwhile the Mosquito is close to useless because it is about capturing the other guy when we have no way to hold them after capturing them, and also will be just as ineffective when they do that armor upgrade the GM was hinting at. It's also assuming that a quadcopter will be better then an alien drone which can use fancy alien engines to run silently instead of being as noisy as a helicopter, which is the kind of thing you need for what is basically a melee range drone.
Edit - Also, if we want to use the tokens we got, we should probably add that to the vote.
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Going back to ACE. XenoCeramics would probably translate better into a Raven revision next phase, but this one should too.
XenoCeramics(1): Blood_Librarian
ACE(2): Madman, roseheart
Mosquito Combat Drone(2): Cnidaros, Stabby
X-R-Drone (1): Strongpoint,
XH1 Laser Rifle (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
XH1 Railgun Rifle (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (4): Cnidaros, Strongpoint, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
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While I like the concept of Mosquito it has DEADLY flaws. Darts and tazers will do nothing against enemy in full suit armor, SOMETHING THEY WILL DO SOONER OR LATER
"Mosquito" Combat Drone(fixed): (using Alien Equipment Tokens)
A medium sized quadcopter connected by satellite uplink to its controllers back at base or directly controlled by an operative in a nearby Skyranger. Drone has a single mount for a weapon that can be used for one of the following: machinegun, powerful tazer, HEAT rocket launcher, or any potential weapons where necessary, downed alien scout drones are disassembled for inspiration as to how to fit all these systems together in a reasonably small drone. In combat, the drones are primarily intended to support our troopers.
Tranquilizers are very doubtful investment. We know big nothing about their biology. And we got no alien biology token so I assume we got little from studying. Alien alloys is a very useful token for future revision and armoring the drone is useless, it won't survive plasma shot in any case.
But I am going to vote for a railgun. It opens good technologies ahead
XenoCeramics(1): Blood_Librarian
ACE(2): Madman, roseheart
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle(0):
Mosquito Combat Drone(2): Cnidaros, Stabby
X-R-Drone (0):
XH1 Laser Rifle (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
XH1 Railgun Rifle (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (3): Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
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Tranquilizers are very doubtful investment. We know big nothing about their biology. And we got no alien biology token so I assume we got little from studying.
That's a good point.
As far as a rifle goes, Stirk's grenade rifles would likely get a design bonus(cus, y'know, they are real).
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I think the best way to approach this turn is to design a weapon using alien equipment token
Then revise our existing combat armor using alien alloys token. This way our infantry gets both new weapon and new armor. Alternatively we can use alien alloys to revise better jet engines.
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I believe battlefield intel will help their success rate more than armor or weapons.
However, if we do want to make weapons, let's trust the expert.
XM25 CDTE
If you are looking for a new direction to take conventional weapons to compete in damage with, there was the OICW program. Long story short, they had attempted to design a "rifle" that shot small caliber grenades instead of bullets. They were designed so that they could explode around cover, hitting targets where normal bullets would be unable to. Theoretically, you could match a plasma weapon's damage if you had powerful enough explosives (though with how Xcom's explosives tend to work, they might be significantly less powerful). In the end, the project was cancelled for a variety of reasons, but working models had been fielded in Afghanistan to positive reception (the XM25 CDTE). Even if it ends up being less powerful, cover tends to be the biggest factor in Xcom games, and having a weapon that can mitigate it would help drastically. (full (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7649700#msg7649700))
These are already designed. They just need to be produced. We can do this in the revision phase. They are as strong as the enemy's weapons.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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If we're going for long range engagements, I'd rather go for something that isn't a tired trope, at least for a little while.
Xcomm Ordinance Muntions "Understanding"
Understanding is a class of munitions designed to go into high power sniper rifles, especially designed semiautomatic rifles or other such equipment where there is enough volume for the Guidance package and explosive payload to fit. With the specially designed rifles designed to deploy the munitions, the wielder is outfitted two additional pieces of equipment to utilize the XOMU. Number one, A large piece of computer hardware that is on the cutting edge of scientific power, this device is equipped with both a directed and unidirectional antenna designed to talk to the round while it is in flight. A tablet sized screen with an optional keyboard for the user to give manual commands to give commands to the bullet that it would otherwise be unable to figure out without. (Steer around bullet instead of going straight, etc.) The third piece of equipment is a visual/thermal Camera identifier, designed for the user to take a snapshot of the battlefield and choose the specific signature to target.
The bullet itself is equipped to totally change its aerodynamic profile, allowing it to "steer" in an otherwise impossible manner, with a combination of alien electronic pieces scavenged from surviving hardware. The payload itself is variable and can either be HEAT, Incendiary, or High Explosive, depending on the users choice.
In medium-close range, it is expected that a shot that would otherwise graze or barely miss a target to hit slightly better then before, and depending on the payload, airburst if applicable. In the long-range, the effects are dramatically increased, as a skilled user-adjusted to the rifle could make miracle shots that would be otherwise impossible, the computer takes over for operating the payloads delivery, automatically adjusting to hit either the designated target or automatically finding a signature that matches known alien intruders.
XenoCeramics(1): Blood_Librarian
ACE(2): Madman, roseheart
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle(0):
Mosquito Combat Drone(2): Cnidaros, Stabby
X-R-Drone (0):
XH1 Laser Rifle (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
XH1 Railgun Rifle (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint
XOMU (1):Blood Librarian
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (3): Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
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Hold off on weapons. They do not have armor and we are already adding firepower with our mission type. Let's stop getting spooked, requiring a rush to overcome.
One bonus of the mosquito, is if they are reading our minds, it won't work on them.
XenoCeramics (1) Blood_Librarian
ACE (2) Madman, roseheart
Mosquito Combat Drone (3) Cnidaros, Stabby, roseheart
XH1 Laser Rifle (2) Chiefwaffles, Happerry
XH1 Railgun Rifle (3) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint
XOMU (1) Blood Librarian
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (3) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
X•COM TRUSTEE
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10ebbor10
Do Raven have access any kind of air to ground weapons? I assumed that we have what modern airforces have + avalanche (the best air to air missile in the world)
You have conventional air-to-ground ammo, yes. On the other hand, the Raven is exactly designed for it, and
Commander! You may want to instruct your men to exercise restraint when using explosives... while certainly effective at killing aliens, they also destroy the artifacts we're hoping to recover from the bodies. Just something to consider.
One of the main points of trying to win ground missions is getting tokens.
We don't get tokens if we blow them up with air support. Ebbor has very explicitly stated that that will happen in the above quote.
And yes, they do not have armor, but it will be extremely obvious to them that they will need it. I thought you said we shouldn't only design reactively?
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I don't have anything to say about that. Just wanted to make an observation:
There were no unit promotions.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I don't have anything to say about that. Just wanted to make an observation:
There were no unit promotions.
What, you mean besides this part?
The Sectoids remain a bigger problem. Not only do they show a stunning awareness of where our forces are, but they appear to be tougher and stronger too.
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If WE develop armor, and they develop armor, then we've mostly evened the playing field, and our guys can STILL aim better than theirs (Pistols. What noobs.), which means any gaps in their armor are going to get them killed. And if they're capable of deploying 100% full-body-covering armor, well, I don't even know why we're bothering with the "Arms Race", since this is going to turn into "just steal their tech since we can never beat it anyway".
If Combined Arms can be updated so that the Raven doesn't necessarily have to use missiles, or that it doesn't necessarily have to be the Raven doing the strafing (Just any armed aircraft), we can revise a 20mm Vulcan or 2 into an aircraft and have strafing runs.
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"just steal their tech since we can never beat it anyway".
I really feel like you should have known it was going to be like this to some degree when you purposely picked the XCOM side of this.
If WE develop armor, and they develop armor, then we've mostly evened the playing field
They have plasma weaponry that can burn through armor, even if better armor makes it less effective.
We have standard kinetics that cannot pierce alien alloys at all.
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I don't have anything to say about that. Just wanted to make an observation:
There were no unit promotions.
What, you mean besides this part?
The Sectoids remain a bigger problem. Not only do they show a stunning awareness of where our forces are, but they appear to be tougher and stronger too.
I was making a neutral observation, unrelated to any proposition.
XCOM usually has a heavy focus on promoting your units. None of ours got "experience" from combat. We just have ambiguous "UP" still, no veterans, unless they show up later in the mission phase.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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-snip-
They have plasma weaponry that can burn through armor, even if better armor makes it less effective.
-snip-
High-level non-alien ceramics with a Kevlar or similar shock-absorbing covering can make plasma weaponry basically useless, unless the plasma is hot enough to convey over 3100 degrees Fahrenheit into the material. We can force them to create a ballistic capable of smashing the ceramic (And the Kevlar) and killing the person beneath it.
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I'm adding to my vote to the Railgun Rifle.
XenoCeramics (1) Blood_Librarian
ACE (2) Madman, roseheart
Mosquito Combat Drone (3) Cnidaros, Stabby, roseheart
XH1 Laser Rifle (2) Chiefwaffles, Happerry
XH1 Railgun Rifle (4) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian
XOMU (1) Blood Librarian
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (3) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
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We are afraid they will get armor using their space metals, making our current weapons useless.
We don't want to use explosives because we want to have more left to reclaim.
We want more intel on the battlefield, as we are outmatched in this area.
We want to give our ravens more survivability, hopefully with no or little increase to VP.
We have only 1 design phase and 1 revision phase to do it.
Last turn we essentially lost on the ground, and won in the air. Count on the enemy spending some resources in the air.
What would make me most confident going into next round, if I could only have 2 things, is more UP and VP. Just "More". If we down and capture our equipment will be less important.
I say we use this design phase to get more VP, and revise for more UP(3 is pathetic. Really.)
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II
Through leveraging Serial Mass Production and concentration of resources, it will become possible to build dedicated factories able to produce the vehicles that XCOM needs, thus allowing additional aircraft to be deployed across the globe, giving XCOM more flexibility in their ability to respond to alien incursions.
Use: 1 VP token, 1 Alien Alloy Token
X•COM TRUSTEE
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So the plan you just proposed is "Do what we did last turn, and pray to goodness that it doesn't have diminishing returns"?
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Yes
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I don't need to point out that this is a terrible plan, do I?
Also, a design for a second base with extensive training facilities and production plants (But limited/no mission-launching capability) would be best, I expect.
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The alien materials will help.
We need this.
This is air support for our skyrangers, this IS the mission we are currently supporting(Combined Arms).
XenoCeramics (1) Blood_Librarian
ACE (2) Madman, roseheart
Mosquito Combat Drone (3) Cnidaros, Stabby, roseheart
XH1 Laser Rifle (2) Chiefwaffles, Happerry
XH1 Railgun Rifle (4) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian
XOMU (1) Blood Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II (1) roseheart
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (3) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I don't have anything to say about that. Just wanted to make an observation:
There were no unit promotions.
What, you mean besides this part?
The Sectoids remain a bigger problem. Not only do they show a stunning awareness of where our forces are, but they appear to be tougher and stronger too.
I was making a neutral observation, unrelated to any proposition.
XCOM usually has a heavy focus on promoting your units. None of ours got "experience" from combat. We just have ambiguous "UP" still, no veterans, unless they show up later in the mission phase.
This might be XCOM, but this is also an Arms Race. EXP as a thing that happens to individual units was never going to happen the second we just had unit points and vehicle points and all to spend. If we want more advanced classes, we were already told that we'd need to spend actions to make the specialized training programs.
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That seemed more attitude than information IMO.
Either way, the idea of dedicated UPs that get better with battles won is enticing.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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That seemed more attitude than information IMO.
Either way, the idea of dedicated UPs that get better with battles won is enticing.
It's accurate, though. That sort of resource costs is an AR standard, and usually precludes any sort of unit upgrading.
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That seemed more attitude than information IMO.
Either way, the idea of dedicated UPs that get better with battles won is enticing.
It's accurate, though. That sort of resource costs is an AR standard, and usually precludes any sort of unit upgrading.
Thanks for the clarification.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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That seemed more attitude than information IMO.
Either way, the idea of dedicated UPs that get better with battles won is enticing.
It's accurate, though. That sort of resource costs is an AR standard, and usually precludes any sort of unit upgrading.
Thanks for the clarification.
Just doing my job.
Information, with an unhelpful amount of sarcasm and general disagreeability!
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News from Stirk!
We have some trouble.
Explosives destroy the reclaimed tech(and corpses) we need. Anything to leave that stuff intact?
So you want to have a weapon that is
1. Man portable
2. Available at current technology levels
3. Capable of outgunning plasma weapons
4. But not explosive
>_>.
Well lets see. Flamethrowers are usually fairly powerful in Xcom, and would theoretically not destroy technology (though crispy corpses wouldn't tell ya much). The same effect can be achieved at long ranges using incendiary weapons, if you want to set things on fire.
For hard-hitting kinetic weapons, like I said before you would need some high caliber guns. Recoiless rifles tend to be high-caliber, and have canister/beehive shot that could ruin an aliens day without ruining hist stuff too. Said rounds arn't particularly popular in recent warfare, but it should be fairly trivial to make some sabots based off of a tank cannon's sabots if you want to go that route. It might be a bit silly and impractical to use a recoiless rifle like a non-recoiless rifle, but 90mm isn't a caliber you want to be on the wrong end of. Or directly behind for that matter.
That would depend on the weapon design, really. The recoiless rifle would fires a ~2 kg projectile ~381 m/s. Current railguns can fire a ~3 kg projectile 2.3 km/s, which would be much better energy wise (as an understatement). The problem is that most current railguns are naval-cannon designs, and they need a long-heavy barrel to be viable. If it scales down well, you could have a powerful little gun. If it scales down poorly, you have a neat little mess. It could also potentially be used as a basis for plasma weapons, such as the MARAUDER project, if you decide to go back to plasma weapons in the future.
Of course, your question was for currently viable conventional weapons. If you want to get into near sci-fi as with man-portable railguns, there would be plenty of other alternatives to plasma.
One final Q for this round. Is there an existing weapon of the type you proposed?
(Will post reply when I get it)
Railgun is going to be extremely difficult. We shouldn't be making handguns out of battleship weapons. Maybe, after making vehicle versions first.
You are simply going to get a mess.
If we are going to rush to a weapon, we would take double advantage from the laser: it is XCOM canon and more reasonable for this scope in general. Though it would likely also be better as a vehicle weapon first.
XenoCeramics (1) Blood_Librarian
ACE (2) Madman, roseheart
Mosquito Combat Drone (3) Cnidaros, Stabby, roseheart
XH1 Laser Rifle (3) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, roseheart
XH1 Railgun Rifle (4) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian
XOMU (1) Blood Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II (1) roseheart
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (3) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
X•COM TRUSTEE
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News from Stirk!
Anything from Stirk is meh simply because you're asking the wrong questions and have the wrong assumptions. Among other things, even if something is in RL production, we're still not going to suddenly get it as an option for free, any more then we started with the Autocannon and Heavy Cannon and Rocket Launcher from OldCom for free when those are in production nowadays. We're also not sticking with what is mundanely possible, given we seem to be going with either railguns or lasers this turn.
Railgun is going to be extremely difficult. We shouldn't be making handguns out of battleship weapons. Maybe, after making vehicle versions first.
You are simply going to get a mess.
Actually, in OldCom, your first laser weapon researched was the Laser Pistol, which unlocked the Laser Rifle, which unlocked the Heavy Laser, which is what unlocks the Laser Cannon (for aircraft), which is what unlocks Laser Defences for your base and Laser HWPs.
So going for the hand weapon first is actually traditional! Also more helpful considering our current missiles are working fine, and if we're going to revise anything about the Ravens the most pressing thing is probably going to be making an Alien Alloy version of them so we can actually survive being shot at.
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Actually, in OldCom, your first laser weapon researched was the Laser Pistol, which unlocked the Laser Rifle, which unlocked the Heavy Laser, which is what unlocks the Laser Cannon (for aircraft), which is what unlocks Laser Defences for your base and Laser HWPs.
So going for the hand weapon first is actually traditional!
Noted.
The recoiless rifle? Plenty of designs. The stats I listed where for the M67's "beehive" round, though its a fairly obsolete weapon. It was said to have some limited use in Afghanistan, especially the rounds you are looking at. There are plenty of other models (generally as anti-armor weapons), such as the Carl Gustaf recoiless rifle, but the flechette-shotgun style rounds became unpopular after Vietnam. Recoiless rifles-you know, kinda like bazooka style rocket launchers.
Notes (Including the rest)
-incendiary weapons would leave more equipment intact than explosives.
-hard hitting kinetic weapons would leave more intact bodies and equipment than either.
-railgun handguns will be extremely difficult.
Ebbor, do weapons based on real life and XCOM have a better chance of success?(Seems obvious, but...)
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Edited the Combined Arms mission type slightly to include gun strafing. I assume that our fighters have some kind of cannon, but in any case fighter guns aren't that useful for ground attack.
Also edited the Mosquito drone to have a LMG as alternative armament, along with option to have them controlled by operators in the Skyranger. Also I believe that we are using satellite uplink for anything more complicated than audio comms to our troopers, it's literally the only option for an extremely mobile airborne force, unless we're asking the locals for their WiFi passwords every mission.
Would like to point out that we would need to capture aliens at some point. Although if we are looking for better weapons, why not go for the plasma? I think "literally copy their stuff" is easier than figuring out how to miniaturise railguns.
XenoCeramics (1) Blood_Librarian
ACE (2) Madman, roseheart
Mosquito Combat Drone (3) Cnidaros, Stabby, roseheart
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle (1): Cnidaros
XH1 Laser Rifle (3) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, roseheart
XH1 Railgun Rifle (4) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian
XOMU (1) Blood Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II (1) roseheart
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (3) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
Since there doesn't seem to be a rule against multiple voting, I'm putting another vote for the plasma rifle.
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Making a viable plasma weaponry is reverse engineering their entire weapons, understanding them, and building them from scratch.
Making a viable Railgun(/laser) weapon is reverse engineering a small part of their weapons, understanding them, then using them to improve an already existing technology.
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In newcom lasers, lead to plasma. I will put a vote on plasma, but ask you to vote for a laser, as it is a primer for plasma also, with how XCOM works.
Yes I am staging a voting coup, better than saying I told you so after the 'difficult' railgun roll fails??
No children.
The stove is hot.
XenoCeramics (2) Blood_Librarian, roseheart
ACE (2) Madman, roseheart
Mosquito Combat Drone (3) Cnidaros, Stabby, roseheart
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle (2): Cnidaros, roseheart
XH1 Laser Rifle (3) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, roseheart
XH1 Railgun Rifle (4) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian
XOMU (1) Blood Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II (1) roseheart
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (3) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
In current designs massive amounts of heat are created by the electricity flowing through the rails, as well as by the friction of the projectile leaving the device. This causes three main problems: melting of equipment, decreased safety of personnel, and detection by enemy forces due to increased infrared signature.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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It's almost like a design using an alien equipment token based on real life applications uses the design and alien equipment token to fix the real-life flaws.
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Alright, but...
Do you believe the roll will be easier than the XCOM canon laser?
Would not having lasers and traditional firearms be more than sufficient variety?
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I assume by "canon laser" you mean a heavy laser probably meant for interceptors. And by XCOM rules, that'd be harder to make than a laser rifle/pistol. So I'll just go with laser instead.
And yes, I 100% believe it'd be the same difficulty as laser. They're pretty similar, in fact.
We have laser weapons in real life, but they're currently not practical for a number of reasons.
We have railgun weapons in real life, but they're currently not practical for a number of reasons.
A laser design would be using our effort (+ soft scifi setting) as well as the alien equipment token to fix these flaws and make laser weapons practical.
A railgun design would be using our effort (+ soft scifi setting) as well as the alien equipment token to fix these flas and make railgun weapons practical.
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"Canonical". 'Of' the source material.
There's YouTube (https://youtu.be/IzUoe-9bKa0) vids of amatuers rigging dangerous lasers.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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No change in difficulty still.
Fun fact: In XCOM2, the first tier of weapons you research is magnetic weapons.
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I really dislike idea of armoring up Raven. It is useless. We'll go from a tin can to a slightly harder tin can. Also, it is naive to expect to produce enough alien alloys to armor Ravens with them.
If we want to upgrade our airpower with design XR is still there and I still think it is a good route (unfortunately no one liked it :(). I think we want to upgrade our airpower because:
1) currently leading plan is combined arms
2) next turn we really, really want to engage two targets
We can do some Airforce things with revisions.
My choice would be:
Avalanche II
Avalanche is the best air to air missile in the world. But with the help of new materials derived from alien alloys we managed to improve its engine and fins improving its range, speed and maneuverability. Additionally, Avalanche is modified to be able to target landed UFOs, buildings or any other large land objects.
Do note that this is not a design, it is proposal for future revision.
PS. so many ninjas. I am voting for the rail gun over laser rifle because I find it funnier to go for that instead of "by the book" laser. Also, experience of one other arms race tells me that lasers are easier to counter than fast flying slugs of metal. Aliens can go for some anti-laser mirrors and other shit.
PPS. I really dislike this multivote system that is forming.
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Deal wit it.
Chief, I really just think it's going to be a worse roll.
What's life without a little risk, right?
XenoCeramics (2) Blood_Librarian, roseheart
ACE (2) Madman, roseheart
Mosquito Combat Drone (3) Cnidaros, Stabby, roseheart
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle (2): Cnidaros, roseheart
XH1 Laser Rifle (3) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, roseheart
XH1 Railgun Rifle (5) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian, roseheart
XOMU (1) Blood Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II (1) roseheart
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (3) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
(Psst, vote for EMPL2 for revision plox)..
X•COM TRUSTEE
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And I'm confident you're wrong about the roll.
Railguns have relevance canonically in XCOM.
Railguns have relevance in real life.
Railguns are relevant to what we already have and our tokens.
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Oh I am pretty sure I am right.
See my vote, above.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Ebbor, do weapons based on real life and XCOM have a better chance of success?(Seems obvious, but...)
I'm not entirely certain what you're trying to ask, so I'll just throw out some semi-relevant answers :
1) Stuff that isn't consistent with the setting will have 0 success chance. No magic, for example (psyonics, on the other hand, is perfectly fine).
2) You don't get any bonus from following the XCOM design path perfectly, except for the fact that doing that guarantees that you have setting compatible designs.
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Yes I am staging a voting coup, better than saying I told you so after the 'difficult' railgun roll fails??
No children.
The stove is hot.
Uh huh. ::)
I really dislike idea of armoring up Raven. It is useless. We'll go from a tin can to a slightly harder tin can. Also, it is naive to expect to produce enough alien alloys to armor Ravens with them.
Currently we're in a situation where neither side can withstand being hit by the other side's weapon for air combat, or at least that's my understanding of it. Whether its done with alien alloy of some kind of ceramic armor, being the side that can actually survive being hit once or twice should be to our advantage. Air combat is far to even for my tastes right now.
PPS. I really dislike this multivote system that is forming.
To be fair, Roseheart is the only person voting for more then two things right now. Two things seems fair to me. Favorite and second favorite. When you can only vote for one thing it can lead to bandwagoning because no one dares change their vote or the thing they don't like might win.
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Currently we're in a situation where neither side can withstand being hit by the other side's weapon for air combat, or at least that's my understanding of it. Whether its done with alien alloy of some kind of ceramic armor, being the side that can actually survive being hit once or twice should be to our advantage. Air combat is far to even for my tastes right now.
Yes. But you just can't armor up a modern jet interceptor. They are fragile by design. Armoring up won't help against their weapons. Especially if you consider future upgrades. We are doomed to use glass cannons till we get elerium powered crafts or, at least, get way more experience in alien alloys. Our way of improvement should be firepower, speed, maneuverability.
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XenoCeramics (2) Blood_Librarian, roseheart
ACE (2) Madman, roseheart
Mosquito Combat Drone (2) Stabby, roseheart
X-R Drone (1): Cnidaros
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle (2): Cnidaros, roseheart
XH1 Laser Rifle (3) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, roseheart
XH1 Railgun Rifle (5) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian, roseheart
XOMU (1) Blood Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II (1) roseheart
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (3) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
Changing my vote from Mosquito to the X-R drone, as I think it'll go better with Combined Arms. Although I maintain we will need to capture some aliens eventually, it can be put off for later.
Also, the railgun rifle isn't just a matter of "stick alien batteries on it". Currently the only viable railguns are ship-mounted. Miniaturising it down into a rifle isn't going to be easy, and making it semi-automatic less so (have you seen current railgun rates of fire?).
Why not just copy the alien weapons, which we have lying around already?
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First, disclaimer: I support the Laser and Railgun variants equally.
Yes, the only viable railguns are ship-mounted.
The only viable plasma guns, however, are non-existent.
That's the difference. In order to be able to understand how to make our own plasma weapons we'd have to completely understand how the alien's guns work and how they weaponized plasma and how every single part works together. Then we'd have to get it all in a neat gun-sized package.
For a railgun? We just need to understand a bit of alien tech, then use it to improve our already-existing railguns.
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As almost everyone is going for two votes, I'll do the the same
XenoCeramics (2) Blood_Librarian, roseheart
ACE (2) Madman, roseheart
Mosquito Combat Drone (2) Stabby, roseheart
X-R Drone (2): Cnidaros, strongpoint
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle (2): Cnidaros, roseheart
XH1 Laser Rifle (3) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, roseheart
XH1 Railgun Rifle (5) Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian, roseheart
XOMU (1) Blood Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II (1) roseheart
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (3) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
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REGULAR DESIGN
XenoCeramics (2):Blood_Librarian, roseheart
ACE (2):Madman, roseheart
Mosquito Combat Drone (2):Stabby, roseheart
X-R Drone (2): Cnidaros, strongpoint
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle (2): Cnidaros, roseheart
XH1 Laser Rifle (3):Chiefwaffles, Happerry, roseheart
XH1 Railgun Rifle (6):Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian, roseheart, Madman
XOMU (1):Blood Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II (1):roseheart
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (4) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart, Madman
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
Railguns are FAR, FAR, FAR easier to weaponize than lasers. Modern lasers capable of killing something in reasonable timeframes are HUGE, and indeed lasers require a higher concentration of energy to do real damage. Railguns don't need to melt through armor and deal with atmospheric diffraction and use some incredibly stable lasing material all at the same time. Lasers DO.
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REGULAR DESIGN
XenoCeramics (1):Blood_Librarian
ACE (1):Madman
Mosquito Combat Drone (1):Stabby
X-R Drone (2): Cnidaros, strongpoint
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle (1): Cnidaros
XH1 Laser Rifle (2):Chiefwaffles, Happerry
XH1 Railgun Rifle (6):Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian, roseheart, Madman
XOMU (1):Blood Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II (1):roseheart
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (4) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart, Madman
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
Let's get our pocket railrockets in production! YAAAY!
(I think we're done here GM)
X•COM TRUSTEE
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REGULAR DESIGN
XenoCeramics (1):Blood_Librarian
ACE (1):Madman
Mosquito Combat Drone (1):Stabby
X-R Drone (2): Cnidaros, strongpoint
XPR-1 Plasma Rifle (1): Cnidaros
XH1 Laser Rifle (2):Chiefwaffles, Happerry
XH1 Railgun Rifle (6):Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint, Blood Librarian, roseheart, Madman
XOMU (1):Blood Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II (1):roseheart
MISSION DESIGN
Combined Arms (4) Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, roseheart, Madman
Surround and siege (1) strongpoint
What is so hard about quoting the previous message to preserve the formatting?
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Like that time I added a link to my proposal?
...arguing with internet people on Xmas lol. XCOM Xmas.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Like that time I added a link to my proposal?
...arguing with internet people on Xmas lol. XCOM Xmas.
It's always time to argue with internet people.
Always.
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Design: XH1 Railgun Rifle (Alien Equipment Token)
The XH1 Railgun Rifle, being based off of the advanced power supplies we don't know much about yet (but enough to use), is a miniaturization of modern railgun technology. The reverse engineering of alien equipment is the final change we needed for this to happen.
It's semi-automatic and is intended to be used by marksmen and snipers - we've decided to not bother trying to implement an automatic firing mechanism or decrease the length of the barrel even further in order to keep difficulty down.
Hard : 2 + 1 Buggy Mess
Element 115, also known as Elerium, appears to be the core of all alien technology we have so far captured. Remnants of the alien ship makes indicate that they also use it to power their vessels, though such can not be confirmed conclusively given the devastating state the ship was when it was exploded.
Nonetheless, our research team was quick to see the possibilities when shown this amazing energy source, and quickly set to work. A short scolding later, and they started to work on weaponry for the XCOM project, instead of various utopic technologies. The result is the XH1 Railgun Rifle, an advanced and powerful miniaturized rail gun, powered by an excellent stable Elerium core.
It just has a few tiny flaws. The first is the rather significant kickback of the gun. Held inappropriately, it can easily dislocate shoulders or cause other injuries. The second is the railgun itself. The rails are not particularly durable, needing replacement every few shots lest they disintegrate, often violently. And because the rails are hot from resistive and inductive heating, replacement is not an easy operations.
The last issue is known as a rail-arc. Under some situations, a plasma arc can form after firing that keeps both rails connected. This short circuits the weapon, rapidly increasing temperature until the soldier either successfully disconnects the powersource, the powersource fails, or the rails melt and shatter violently.
Mission Type: Combined Arms
This mission emphasises the synergy of air assets and ground troops. While our troops conduct the ground assault, aircraft overhead fire extra missiles into the grounded UFO, breaching a hole for our troops to storm it. Additional fire, either in the form of missiles or strafing runs, can be called down on enemy positions by commanders on the ground, who have direct communication to HQ and the pilots for better coordination. If the reconnaissance UAV is still airborne, it is used by command staff to update ground commanders on the tactical situation.
Basically get air support, and breach that UFO. Hopefully those missiles aren't nuclear? Also kind of fixes the recon UAV idea from earlier, as I thought it would help our battle tactics to have aerial recon, but it doesn't seem to be doing that.
Easy : 4 + 4 + 1 (Unexpected boon)
Combined arms is a thorough re-evaluation of our previous down and capture system. By integrating air and ground into one coherent strategy, it should be feasible to assault a UFO while making the most of air support. Such an action requires carefully aimed air to ground fire, lest it result in either friendly casualties or destroy the very target you're aiming at.
In support of this strategy, our engineering team has created an modification package for the Raven to give it greater capability for ground support, though this comes at the expense of air combat capability.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH1 Railgun Rifle : A railgun rifle powered by an elerium core. Prone to dislocating shoulders, exploding or catching fire, and exploding while catching fire.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
3 EP
1 VP token, 1 Alien Alloy Token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Revision Phase
AABBCCDD
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Adjusted Interceptor Missiles
The world happens to have a lot of ballistic missile interceptor missiles, such as the THAAD system deployed by the US Military. UFOs enter the atmosphere at high speeds, from high altitude (duh). Ballistic missiles do the same. A simple adjustment to the missiles' tracking systems (To track entire flying-saucer bogeys, instead of tiny MIRV warheads) allows us to shoot down bogeys with style, with no pilots or incredibly expensive jets at risk---just somewhat expensive missiles that have been in production since the Cold War.
No need to use expensive interceptors for everything if we can just shoot them down with ultra-high-velocity preexisting munitions.
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
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10ebbor10
Is XH1 unusable? I don't see it in the available equipment list
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Xeno Ceramics
Things are not completely bleak, commander. Although our first attempts at manipulating the Alien Alloys has failed, (It had to go down to getting an "Engineers" laser lathe to cut it into a small enough piece to analyze.) We have already made discoveries that would revolutionize traditional material sciences by leaps and bounds. To that end, We have used the enemies recovered weapons to test how well traditional armors would predictably fare; Miserably. However, by using plates designed to handle the thermal shock of the enemies standard weapons, we have managed to create a set of armor that decreases the chance of death or severe maiming by as much as thirty percent. This extreme success is accomplished by custom fabricating otherwise "normal" ceramics with the tiny beads of Alien Alloys we could chip off recovered material. The Beads are then deposited into the Cermaics-making Progress, resulting in a plate with no terrestrial parallel in terms of heat resistance. The plates, which are around two inches in diameter, are promptly layered over a heat-resistant metal alloy to form a ballistic weave that can in some cases take a direct hit from an alien weapon and survive. Combined with a fire retardant undersuit often worn by Firefighters, we have managed to manufacture the first generation of Xenomaterials into a combat-ready set of armor.
Kessel Plate-Mail Armor
An undersuit of fire-retardant "traditional" materials combined with a plate carrier, kneepads, helmet and vambraces made from Xeno-Ceramic Materials designed to give our soldiers a fighting chance of surviving low powered plasma weapons. Pieces of equipment are kept where possible from the original uniform.
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (1) Blood_Librarian
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Guys, We must spend revision to improve airforce in some way, unless XH is unusable. I don't want to ignore one of two missions again. If we are lucky and their mission is in Europe\North America we can go 3 ravens + Skyranger + Inter Agency Cooperation team.
Madman's proposal will likely cost us either VP or EP and doesn't look that effective especially considering that we detected only one UFO in the reentry phase.
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10ebbor10
Is XH1 unusable? I don't see it in the available equipment list
Gimme a minute, I forgot
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I like big butts and I cannot lie.
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II
Through leveraging Serial Mass Production and concentration of resources, it will become possible to build dedicated factories able to produce the vehicles that XCOM needs, thus allowing additional aircraft to be deployed across the globe, giving XCOM more flexibility in their ability to respond to alien incursions.
The limitations encountered before, not least of which the difficulty with complex parts, are explored again with new alien materials aiding the endeavor.
Use: 1 Alien Alloy Token
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (1) Blood_Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II: (1) roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
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VP tokens don't work that way. You apply it to a design to get 1 VP token worth free.
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Adjusted Interceptor Missiles looks like a bad idea. It has operational range of 200km, meaning that we'll cover a tiny part of the globe even if we triple that. Plus it will cost either VP or EP and we usually don't detect UFOs early enough. If we want to go this route, we may consider revising interception missile profile and adding request for assistance from local air defense systems.
I absolutely fail to understand how allien alloys can help in mass production
Avalanche II (use alien alloys token)
Avalanche is the best air to air missile in the world. But with the help of new materials derived from alien alloys we managed to improve its engine and fins increasing missile's range, speed and maneuverability.
I want this to be able to send to send 1 interceptor vs two UFOs
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (1) Blood_Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II: (1) roseheart
Avalanche II (1) Strongpoint
Preliminary, ready to switch to better airforce improvement revision
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VP tokens don't work that way. You apply it to a design to get 1 VP token worth free.
Thanks. Removed.
Can we spend a VP token separately from our design?
I believe so. So we should grab an extra Skyranger. (We will probably improve our interceptors soon.)
Designs
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (1) Blood_Librarian
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II: (1) roseheart
Avalanche II: (1) Strongpoint
Other
1VP token=SkyRanger: (1) roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Designs
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (2) Blood_Librarian, Happerry
Enhanced Mass Production Lines II: (1) roseheart
Avalanche II: (1) Strongpoint
Other
1VP token=SkyRanger: (1) roseheart
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Adjusted Interceptor Missiles looks like a bad idea. It has operational range of 200km, meaning that we'll cover a tiny part of the globe even if we triple that. Plus it will cost either VP or EP and we usually don't detect UFOs early enough. If we want to go this route, we may consider revising interception missile profile and adding request for assistance from local air defense systems.
That would tend to be the idea---if we can retrofit these missiles, then we can convince (Later) friendly nations to perform the same retrofits, even if it's going to take some convincing to have them partially dismantle their ballistic missile defenses.
The best alternative, of course, is to just start placing bases around the globe, one at a time, and fitting them with the defensive systems.
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XH1 Railgun Rifle : A railgun rifle powered by an elerium core. Prone to dislocating shoulders, exploding or catching fire, and exploding while catching fire.
Ehm, cost?
I'd actually wait till we know the EP cost of the rifle before doing final voting.
But really, what guys who vote not for airforce improvement. What is your plan in interception phase? Ignore another alien mission?
Also, if we improve toys for infantry, fixing the rifle looks like a better idea
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1
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Guys, we can easily use all our EP if we go three skyrangers with XF rifles in each of them. And I think we'll go for 3 Skyrangers because another alternative is three Ravens+1 Skyranger. Revising armor just doesn't work in this case because it will be an either\or kind of situation.
I think the question is, do we want to revise the rifle or improve our airforce?
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Man, if only we had arc throwers next turn.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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We should revise it so our troopers have a fighting chance of getting shot and living.
XenoCeramics people. It works.
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Man, if only we had arc throwers next turn.
It'd still be useless, because we got two nat ones on 2d4, and that would turn anything useless. It didn't matter at all what we did this turn with that roll.
Roll (probability): Result
2 (1/16): Utter failure. You get nothing except the knowledge of what not to do.
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Since the VP token will aid the VP crunch, I will change my vote for this revision phase to the railgun.
What can be revised
Revisions are a lot more limited than designs. A revision must be based on an existing piece of equipment.
You can fix bugs, make modifications, or even make 'new' equipment as a variety of the old. Difficulty again depends on the amount of new tech and engineering work required.
Seems about right.
Also, please consider this.
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil
2 is the smallest region. This was likely a targeted attack. We don't have a panic reducing mission type. Once the continent is lost, it may be harder or even impossible to get it back.
Railgun Revision (1 Alien Alloy Token)
Alien alloy is used to replace components prone to malfunction and improve durability. The shock absorbing potential of this material is also explored to make the weapon safer. As a second priority, if other goals are achieved, scopes sensitive to drone electronic signatures are added.
Designs
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (2) Blood_Librarian, Happerry
Railgun revision: (1) roseheart
Avalanche II: (1) Strongpoint
Other
1VP token=SkyRanger: (1) roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I like the idea of creating armor, but XenoCeramics is not a revision. It wants to design an entirely new alloy, make armor plates with this alloy, then design a new suit of combat armor using this alloy and multiple other things. That would be more fit for a design and revision or multiple designs. Not a revision.
So instead:
Revision: Alloy Armor (Alien Alloy Token)
By incorporating alloy plates along with some heat-resistant underclothing into the sets of armored issued to every soldier, we can greatly increase field survaivability. Alien alloy plates cover more important parts of the body while the heat-resistant stuff goes under the plates and where the alien alloy can't.
We also try to make it resistant against syringes and shocks and whatnot, but that's 100% not a priority.
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[Snip]
No, it is not. It is simply putting Alien alloy beads into an otherwise normal ceramic plate that gets turned into armor. Please don't pretend its anything more complex than that, Please.
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Xeno Ceramics
Things are not completely bleak, commander. Although our first attempts at manipulating the Alien Alloys has failed, (It had to go down to getting an "Engineers" laser lathe to cut it into a small enough piece to analyze.) We have already made discoveries that would revolutionize traditional material sciences by leaps and bounds. To that end, We have used the enemies recovered weapons to test how well traditional armors would predictably fare; Miserably. However, by using plates designed to handle the thermal shock of the enemies standard weapons, we have managed to create a set of armor that decreases the chance of death or severe maiming by as much as thirty percent. This extreme success is accomplished by custom fabricating otherwise "normal" ceramics with the tiny beads of Alien Alloys we could chip off recovered material. The Beads are then deposited into the Cermaics-making Progress, resulting in a plate with no terrestrial parallel in terms of heat resistance. The plates, which are around two inches in diameter, are promptly layered over a heat-resistant metal alloy to form a ballistic weave that can in some cases take a direct hit from an alien weapon and survive. Combined with a fire retardant undersuit often worn by Firefighters, we have managed to manufacture the first generation of Xenomaterials into a combat-ready set of armor.
That's four things.
You want to:
1.) Design a new type of alloy using both alien materials and our ceramics to create something with extreme increases in durability.
2.) Use this alloy to create specifically-specified armor plating.
3.) Combine these armor plates with a "heat-resistant metal alloy" to form a ballistic weave
4.) Combine this ballistic weave with the fire retardant undersuit
All to make a new set of armor.
This is called a "design".
(edit)
Designs
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (2) Blood_Librarian, Happerry
Railgun revision: (2) roseheart, Chiefwaffles
Avalanche II: (1) Strongpoint
Alloy Armor (1): Chiefwaffles
[/b]Other[/b]
1VP token=SkyRanger: (1) roseheart
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Designs
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (2) Blood_Librarian, Happerry
Railgun revision: (3) roseheart, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
Avalanche II: (1) Strongpoint
Alloy Armor (1): Chiefwaffles
Other
1VP token=SkyRanger: (1) roseheart
This is mostly because i feel our armour should be a design instead to get the most out of it.
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I told you guys, rifle-sized railguns are hard. ::)
Designs
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (2) Blood_Librarian, Happerry
Railgun revision: (3) roseheart, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
Avalanche II: (2) Strongpoint, Cnidaros
Alloy Armor (1): Chiefwaffles
Other
1VP token=SkyRanger: (2) roseheart, Cnidaros
I would have liked the mass production revision to get 7 VP allowing us to go for 3 Ravens + 2 Skyrangers with the VP token. But I suppose better missiles would have much the same effect.
Also, it occurs to me that we are moderately screwed if they revise their UFO weapons to be turreted, allowing landed UFOs to contribute to both the air battle (if it's low enough) and their own defense.
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Oh no, a Hard design, whatever shall we do?!
I consider the XH1 a success, especially given the natural roll we got. We have an effective rifle-sized railgun. It may be difficult to use and may not be fit to be given to every soldier yet, but it's very close.
Also Stabby, just as a note, if you want to design armor later you'd be better off voting for an armor revision that we can use as experience for designing a proper suit, or vote for something that doesn't use the token. While I personally am (mostly) okay with using it in a railgun revision, it'd make our lives harder when designing armor if we use the Alloy Token for the Railgun revision.
Also Roseheart, mind editing the Railgun revision to change the name of the railgun to the XH2 Railgun instead of the XH1?
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Revisions
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (1) Blood_Librarian,
Railgun revision: (4) roseheart, Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Happerry
Avalanche II: (2) Strongpoint, Cnidaros
Alloy Armor (1): Chiefwaffles
Other
1VP token=SkyRanger: (2) roseheart, Cnidaros, Happerry
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I am not a big fan of spending alien alloys on the rifle. We may need this token to react to enemy action next turn, should we fail to get any
XS-1 heavy railgun
XH-1 is a good concept, but got many problems due to excessive miniaturization. In attempt to fix it, larger version was created. It got larger heat sinks, larger capacitors, more space between crucial parts and generally more weight reducing recoil problems. XS-1 is mostly the same weapon but with a weight closer to a machine gun, it requires crew of to to operate it effectively and meant to be used from prone position. Also, It can have an attached scope and be operated by a sniper and his assistant, forming a sniper pair.
Instead of trying to give to every soldier make it more like squad weapon, more like anti-tank rifle of the past. After all it is the role it will play. Also, we'll get an option to field both version should we wish.
Revisions
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (1) Blood_Librarian,
XF-2 Railgun revision: (4) roseheart, Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Happerry
Avalanche II (2): Strongpoint, Cnidaros
Alloy Armor (1): Chiefwaffles
XS-1 railgun revision (1): Strongpoint
Other
1VP token=SkyRanger: (2) roseheart, Cnidaros, Happerry
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It's the XH1 Railgun, not the XF-1 Railgun.
And the goal is to eventually make a weapon we can give to every soldier. It doesn't need to be immediate or necessarily done this revision, but we won't ever get it by purposely making it bigger. It's already handheld(?), we just need a revision to fix its bugs. We'd be shooting ourselves in the foot if we made it bigger on purpose.
Revisions
Adjusted Interceptor Missiles: (1) Madman
XenoCeramics: (1) Blood_Librarian,
XH2 Railgun revision: (4) roseheart, Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Happerry
Avalanche II (2): Strongpoint, Cnidaros
Alloy Armor (1): Chiefwaffles
XS-1 railgun revision (1): Strongpoint
Other
1VP token=SkyRanger: (2) roseheart, Cnidaros, Happerry
I just re-added the formatting and changed it from XF-2 to XH2.
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And the goal is to eventually make a weapon we can give to every soldier. It doesn't need to be immediate or necessarily done this revision, but we won't ever get it by purposely making it bigger. It's already handheld(?), we just need a revision to fix its bugs. We'd be shooting ourselves in the foot if we made it bigger on purpose.
Don't be attached to the initial plan you formed in your head when you proposed XH1. We can get both things. Smaller railgun to give to every soldier, heavier to be used as armor piercing weapon. Experience gained in developing working larger version will help us to revise XH better next turn, maybe with another alien equipment token attached. Experience in developing larger version may help developing aircraft sized railgun, too. What is important - making weapon larger is a natural way to fix some of it flaws like recoil or overheating,
Even this turn we may be able to field both, may be needed if decide to go one skyranger + 3 ravens
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I'm attached to the most viable plan currently present. We already have a functional effective handheld railgun that's not particularly expensive. We just need to fix its bugs before it becomes a weapon viable to give to every soldier.
You seem to forget why revisions exist - they're not "sacrifice some aspects to fix other things." We can use it to fix the flaws without arbitrarily increasing it in size. We also don't need experience in making bigger railguns, since we had that from the start. Nearly 100% of the effort in the XH1 design was making it smaller. Let's not waste that by suddenly backtracking.
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You seem to forget why revisions exist - they're not "sacrifice some aspects to fix other things." We can use it to fix the flaws without arbitrarily increasing it in size.
Or we can improve our roll by using an easier way to fix it. Also, you are saying it like a larger version is strictly worse or mutually exclusive. It is like saying that a MG is worse than an assault rifle because you can't give it to every soldier.
Larger version will be, at the very least, more accurate. I'll actually add scope to revision proposal
If we'll have two sizes of railguns for our infantry, we can likely improve both with one revision and then better cooling of larger version will be useful
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A MG is not explicitly worse than an assault rifle, but right now we need an assault rifle more than we need a MG. We already have the XH1. Now we need to let the rest of our soldiers use railguns instead of conventional firearms.
The railgun is already a niche gun. The XS-1 fulfills the same niche (heavy ranged support) without making any progress towards actually pushing the railgun towards being a viable infantry weapon. It would provide little to zero experience in making proper handheld railguns as it only fixes its problems by "making it bigger". Something that of course goes away with smaller guns.
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New member, what is current situation?
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New member, what is current situation?
We are being shown through the mission phase that it's way better to concentrate forces to actually defeat the enemy and get some stuff, than it is to try and distribute our forces equally.
We are also trying to realize that the tech tree of the games is not required to be followed and it's best to just use it as a general rule of thumb to know difficulties.
We need to fix our rail-gun in such a way it ends up only costing 1 Equipment Point, so that we can have potentially two in one squad.
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We need to fix our rail-gun in such a way it ends up only costing 1 Equipment Point, so that we can have potentially two in one squad.
It already costs 1 EP.
Also, I assume that one unit of equipment = enough to fully equip a squad. 10ebbor10 Am I right?
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10ebbor10 Am I right?
Yup.
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Railgun Revision (1 Alien Alloy Token)
Alien alloy is used to replace components prone to malfunction and improve durability. The shock absorbing potential of this material is also explored to make the weapon safer. As a second priority, if other goals are achieved, scopes sensitive to drone electronic signatures are added.
Normal : 4 + 1 Average [Token Used=> Effect boosted]
The new alien alloys make our railguns issues disappear almost instantly. The new stronger rails are capable of easily resisting the significant stresses and tremendous heat of the railgun operation, even during repeated and sustained firing. Explosive failures have been eliminated, recoil has been mitigated, and maintenance issues virtually eliminated. With plenty of time left, we added a smart scope system that should allow us to spot the enemies drones more easily.
In effect, the XH-2 is a very effective semi-automatic rifle. The railgun round has tremendous velocity and penetrative power, making it an effective weapon both at range and against armored opponents. It has a limited capability to fire through most forms of cover and kill those hiding directly beneath, and is equipped with a special scope to identify drone systems.
UFO DETECTED
Craft(s): Small, Small, Small?
Current Trajectory:Medium Altitude, Descending
Location: Brazil
Radar installations in Brasil have detected a small flotilla of UFO's descending steadily towards one of the countries rural areas. Analysis indicates an estimated 3 UFO's are present. All UFO's appear to be the same size, there appears to be no sign of the small UFO seen during the last incursion. Analysis has pegged 2 of the UFO's as the lander they've used during previous abduction attempts. The third so far defies classification. It may be new, or modified, or even simply a fluke of the radar installation.
Bogey XXX
Location : North Pole
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
3 EP
1 VP token,
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Interception Phase
AABBCCDD
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Welp. We got outplayed.
Seems like they're making use of the advantage that is a combination fighter/lander UFO. Hmph.
The only way we have a chance of doing anything is if we send 3 Ravens. But that's not guaranteed (considering a Raven is very roughly 1:1 with their lander, and there's a new UFO in play). That means no Skyrangers and no ground combat, but I'd rather a chance at preventing the aliens from getting anything than nothing.
Operation First Summer
[Intercept Bogeys 008-010]
3 Ravens (Eliminate Lander UFOs)
Operation First Summer (1): Chiefwaffles
We should consider an interceptor design next turn.
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I think they assumed that we failed to detect Brazilian UFO and try it again. BTW, I was afraid of situation like this and this is why I wanted better missiles.
Operation Amazon
Combined Arms:
3xRaven
-2x of which equipped with SMART
1 Skyranger (VP token)
-NOTSOFTER
--XH-2 Railgun Rifle
I am not willing to take chances in 2 vs 3 fight. We simply can't afford them to raise panic further. Stopping them is our first priority. Yes, ground forces will have a hard time but we have rifles and air support.
We can also consider just going intercept and keep Skyranger full of troops in reserve.
Damn, if only our cooperation with special forces worked in South America..
We can try 2 ravens and 3 skyrangers and wait till they land... but I don't think it is a good way to do it. Risk is too high.
Ninja'd
I don't think that pure interception is the best way to do it. We can win aerial battle.
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I like Operation Amazon, except for the bit where two of the Ravens are equipped with the Ground Combat Package. That does replace the Raven's normal anti-air firepower to some degree after all, and I'm hesitant to throw two debuffed ravens out when the enemy has a new ship and we're going to have even sides in the air. I'd prefer to only put one Raven through the Ground Combat Package modification to make sure that we win in the air, so we can use the Ground Combat Package in the first place.
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We should equip none of them with the ground combat package. Again - a Raven is roughly equal with their lander UFO. They have a new UFO and three in total. A Raven with the ground combat package won’t be able to fear their starter UFO 1:1.
We need every aerial advantage we can get.
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GM, was the VP token spent on a skyranger?
X•COM TRUSTEE
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We should equip none of them with the ground combat package. Again - a Raven is roughly equal with their lander UFO. They have a new UFO and three in total. A Raven with the ground combat package won’t be able to fear their starter UFO 1:1.
We need every aerial advantage we can get.
My issue is that, while what you said is true, we could be facing three crews with only a single skyranger's worth of troops. Even if we assume that the unidentified third UFO is some sort of larger escort instead of some sort of dedicated Transport or science vessel or something and doesn't carry any troops, we're still going to end up going with one skyranger's worth of units verses two crew units. Given those odds, I'd like to give at least one Raven the Ground Combat Package to make sure we can actually take what we shoot down.
So far our Ravens have done pretty well verses anything they have even numbers with. Given that, I consider one Ground Combat Package worth the risk. Just not two of them.
GM, was the VP token spent on a skyranger?
Not yet, it's still in the inventory, but we can (and should) spend it this phase. (Though the Alien Alloy Token is also still in the inventory... Typo?)
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If we shoot them down the Aliens they don’t get the benefits from successfully completing a mission.
I think it’d be much better to do that rather than risk everything so we have a better chance at securing the UFOs. Again - Ravens go 1:1 with their starter UFOs, and they developed a new UFO.
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A Raven with the ground combat package won’t be able to fear their starter UFO 1:1.
Ground combat package reduces number of available avalanches. Did we have a problem of getting close to running out of missiles vs starter UFOs?
I am hesitant to leave only one raven with air to ground missiles because it may be shot down and then we'll have no SMART. Ideal situation will be if we'll attack them after they land. They'll be far less dangerous in this case.
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This UFO appears to be far smaller, and clearly has far more weaponry. In addition, it has a weird resemblance to some Earth craft, having actual wings within it's circular shape
That's the escort UFO we fought last time. It isn't present here.
Considering the failure of the escort and the fact that they already have two transports in the flotilla, we can be reasonably confident that this new UFO is some kind of fighter - especially since it's still the same small size as the others.
We very well will run a risk of running out of missiles.
But that's not even relevant, since Ebbor does not state "Ground combat package reduces number of available avalanches." He states:
In support of this strategy, our engineering team has created an modification package for the Raven to give it greater capability for ground support, though this comes at the expense of air combat capability.
Ravens with the ground combat package equipped will do worse in air combat.
The aliens have a flotilla of three - very likely with a new fighter UFO.
Our Ravens can only go with their starter craft one on one.
We gain much more from a succesful interception and failed ground raid than we do from a failed interception.
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Maybe we should think about designing/revising a mission to be 'follow them until they land, and then attack them' sometime?
Well, anyway, I've been convinced away from using the Ground Combat Package this time. (We also might want to think about designing a dedicated air support craft and then spending a VP Token on it so we'll always have one around if we want to use Combined Arms with any regularity, because I doubt this is the only time the air combat is going to be tricky enough that we don't want to risk sending anything but our best. Maybe some sort of Skyranger carried drone with a set of Hellfires (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire)? We could base it off the Predator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQ-1_Predator) or Reaper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQ-9_Reaper))
Operation Burn And Then Pillage
Combined Arms:
3xRaven (3x2=6 VP)
1 Skyranger (VP token)
-NOTSOFTER (1 UP)
--XH-2 Railgun Rifle (1 EP)
Operation First Summer (1): Chiefwaffles
Operation Amazon (1): Strongpoint
Operation Burn And Then Pillage (1): Happerry
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What stops us from waiting till they land and then attack with ravens and SMARTs?
Changing my vote to not create too many similar competing plans
Operation First Summer (1): Chiefwaffles
Operation Amazon ():
Operation Burn And Then Pillage (2): Happerry, Strongpoint
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I see it wasn't. But it should have been? The vote was supported/not countered. :/
X•COM TRUSTEE
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What stops us from waiting till they land and then attack with ravens and SMARTs?
The part were we don't have a 'track them till they land and then land on them with all our stuff' mission, to my understanding.
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Operation First Summer (1): Chiefwaffles
Operation Amazon ():
Operation Burn And Then Pillage (3): Happerry, Strongpoint, Cnidaros
This seems like the best plan, mostly because I'm not comfortable with nerfing any of our Ravens. Anyway, is waiting for them to land an option? Because it'll be the best one by far if it was.
Wouldn't it be useful if we had some better missiles right about now?
EDIT: I didn't think "wait for them to land" was worth a separate mission type. I mean, it's literally just waiting.
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The other potential problem is if the new design is a bomber design and they aren't planning on landing at all, just setting a few cities on plasma and laughing as our panic meters go up.
Anyway, I could edit in 'if we can, wait for them to land' in the plan and see if that works, but I would really prefer to actually have a mission type for that, because a well done mission type should mean our people are a lot smarter about 'oh, hey, that thing we thought was a giant cargo transport is actually a battleship, and instead of leading us to that base we think they have it is just bombarding us, but it has not landed yet so I guess we better keep waiting' type situations. As is, if we're waiting for them to land I'd prefer to change to having one Raven with the ground combat package, so we aren't sending one Skyranger Crew verses two Alien Crews. That doesn't seem like a recipe for fun and success. Two and a half verses their new ship should be good enough odds to win if it is a heavier fighter design flying aircover... hopefully.
As is, I'm hoping we cause casualties to the crew in the air combat section so it's not 2v1 odds against us.
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But that's not even relevant, since Ebbor does not state "Ground combat package reduces number of available avalanches." He states:
In support of this strategy, our engineering team has created an modification package for the Raven to give it greater capability for ground support, though this comes at the expense of air combat capability.
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Emphasis added.
~~~
Nothing to see here
~~~
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But that's not even relevant, since Ebbor does not state "Ground combat package reduces number of available avalanches." He states:
In support of this strategy, our engineering team has created an modification package for the Raven to give it greater capability for ground support, though this comes at the expense of air combat capability.
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Emphasis added.
The question is 'is this based of oldcom's aircraft mechanics'? Because there's an important difference between 'we used to carry eight Avalanches and now we have four of them and four ATG Missiles' and 'We have two Weapon Slots and we replaced the Avalanche Launcher in one of them with the ground support system'.
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Not too happy about using the VP token on the Skyranger; ideally we could save it for when we design a new transport. But it works just fine here. I doubt the Skyranger will ever be truly obsolete, so the free one should never go to waste.
And waiting for them to land is 100% a mission type. We have different mission types for "shoot them" and "shoot them then land at the UFO" and "shoot them then land at the UFO and also have the air units send reinforcements". Having "wait until they land then land at the UFO without trying to intercept" is quite a departure.
It'd probably be a pretty easy revision, but based on precedent I doubt we could do it without that revision.
Operation First Summer (0):
Operation Amazon (0):
Operation Burn And Then Pillage (4): Happerry, Strongpoint, Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles
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What can we even do next turn to improve our airforce? Fighter with railguns, doubt that this is better than missiles. Without tokens it is very hard to design fighter that will be better than Raven
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Operation First Summer (0):
Operation Amazon (0):
Operation Burn And Then Pillage (5): Happerry, Strongpoint, Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, Madman
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10ebbor10 What do we need to get another base? Is it just a design?
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Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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10ebbor10 What do we need to get another base? Is it just a design?
It's a design, but not an easy one.
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GM, was the VP token spent on a skyranger?
(If not Y)
Next Q, is a revision just as "powerful" as a design, but with more restriction on subject?
Or would a design do more? What dice is a revision if not 2 d4?
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I think next turn we should go for the second base and be ready to spend both design and revision on it.
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Operation First Summer (0):
Operation Amazon (0):
Operation Burn And Then Pillage (6): Happerry, Strongpoint, Cnidaros, Chiefwaffles, Madman, Stabby
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GM, was the VP token spent on a skyranger?
Not yet
Next Q, is a revision just as "powerful" as a design, but with more restriction on subject?
Revisions are somewhat weaker and more limited. They're 2d4
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Why was the 1 VP token, that had 2 votes to be spent on a skyranger, not?
Is it only spendable in this phase?
Thank you.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Is it only spendable in this phase?
Let's go with that.
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Idea for the next design:
X-Com base South
On the first glance this base is nothing but a mundane air base of Argentinian air force located near the border with Brazil. But it is different. One of its hangars hides X-Com aircrafts. It's radars are modified to detect UFOs. Its ground to air missiles are upgraded using technologies similar to ones used in Avalanche missiles. Undegroud it has a small production facility specialized on producing aircrafts parts
Thoughts? They are focusing on Brazil and I don't like it at all. Such base may give us more VP for fighters and detection power.
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I am neutral, and not gonna give spoilers.
Would a second base give more UP, EP and VP? if not, what's the point in getting a second base when you guys can barely handle what is being thrown at you now?
Like, surely a Skyranger/air design would be much more useful. Maybe if you try and design some form of cloaking device to make it much easier to get the first shots in?
Or really another piece of equipment would be very useful.
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Well I expect that base like this will give VP.
I see little use in a new aircraft because it doesn't solve our issues. It won't be that much better, especially if it will cost more VP than Raven.
Cloaking device... based on what? We know nothing about their sensors. Another piece of equipment for soldiers is doubtful if we'll have no chance to shoot down their UFOs.
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Yeah, sorry to your side, but your update will be a bit delayed. I started with the Ethereal one and it's more personalized than usual, so I'll have to do some work on it.
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Battle
Craft(s): Small, Small, Small?
Current Trajectory:Medium Altitude, Descending
Location: Brazil
Three Ravens, the best aircraft humanity can produce, each equipped with twelve Avalanche missiles, blast of from XCOM HQ. A skyranger follows not long thereafter. Their target, 3 UFO's flying in formation heading towards Brazil. On paper, this should be an easy fight. With it's powerful avalanche missiles, the Raven is superior to any known alien craft, provided it doesn't take an unlucky hit. In a fair fight, 3 on 3 should be a hard fought victory, but a victory nonetheless.
It's unfortunate then that the aliens do not play fair. The Raven's are still setting up their intercept when one of the UFO's suddenly breaks away, changing trajectory in a maneuver that would have pulped any human pilot. The UFO, which on closer inspection appears to be an enlarged fighter, rather than a derivative of their lander, is among the Ravens before they even have a chance to open fire.
An overwhelming barrage of viridiscent bolts tears through the formation, wrecking one craft and forcing the other two to make evasive maneuvers. Before they can recover, the 2 light scouts are upon them, bringing down another fighter with a lesser barrage. And then the fighter's back again, firing at the last Raven. With death but moments away, the pilot fires all his missiles as a last act of vengeance.
The rushed barrage is inaccurate. Eight missiles fail to acquire lock and simply wander away. Two others hit one of the light UFO's, but do not inflict lethal or even delibitating damage. The last barrage inflicts the most peculiar behaviour. One UFO simply starts tumbling, the missiles overshooting it's just barely as something blocks their sensors. A few hundred meters, the UFO recovers and resumes flight.
Seeing the slaughter in the sky, the Skyranger dives, disappearing into the Jungle.
Hidden among the trees, XCOM's lone squad observes the aliens as they go about their work. The drones zoom out of the UFO's hull, spreading through the village as they hunt down the hiding population. Each time a drone finds one, it shocks or stuns them, then whistles as it waits for a Sectoid to amble over and drag them to the UFO.
Other Sectoids appear to be busy working with the glowing containers we've seen earlier. A touchpad on the site appears to open the container, which reveals a glowing crystal surrounded in a glowing dust. After that, they appear to leave it alone. In total, there appear to be nearly four times as many sectoids and drones as there are XCOM units. All appear to be identical to the ones encountered before, with the exception that some appear to be carrying softly glowing canisters that bear some resemblance to the power cores used in the alien pistols (and our very own railguns).
With the entire team now ready, they take up positions and open fire. Drones fall from the sky as they're eliminated one by one, and several sectoids are torn apart by the railgun rods. The opening volley is followed up by even more fire, taking several more confused sectoids. Even so, the sectoids catch on with remarkable speed, hiding behind vehicles and other cover. Doesn't stop the shots, but it does stop our forces from spotting them.
Despite the camouflage, the aliens catch on remarkably quickly on our troops positions, and both drones and sectoids start to converge. Plasma beams tear through the topiary, but beyond that have little effect at this range. Our forces continue to reap a heavy toll, until one sectoid comes to close, and the point of their canisters is revealed. One lands straight among the troops, the resulting explosion killing several of our units. Combined with numerical inferiority, this proves the end of our defense.
Mission Failure : [Severe Casualties inflicted have probably partially disrupted the enemy operation]
Notes :
* Performance of the Raven was subpar to expectations, perhaps due to suprise of the new alien fighter
* The railgun works very well against the aliens, especially at long range. With modest air support, luck, or more units, we could won here.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
3 EP
1 VP token,
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Design Phase
First Month End : The war intensifies. You receive one VP/UP/EP of choice, to use immediately.
Challenge : Write a (short) excerpt on any of the recent battles from any perspective. (Reward : ??? + 1 unrestricted token)
Turn 4 Start
AABBCCDD
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Damn... Looks like 2 raven + 3 skyrangers would be better... With only one successful mission for the whole game we are in a bad, bad spot.
My offers:
Sparrow
Sparrow is a very small and nimble jet fighter built around a railgun. Secondary armament includes 2 hardpoints for missiles. Sparrow is built with close dogfighting in mind and tries to achieve maximum maneuverability allowed by human anatomy and jet engines
Problem with this > it will cost VP competing with other designs, bad roll will give design no better than Raven, I am not sure that railgun is a great weapon for an aircraft. Also, replacing a niche we already have covered is always painful decision.
Advantages of this > Looks like they try to counter our missiles, railguns may be a nasty surprise for them.
X-Com base South
On the first glance this base is nothing but a mundane air base of Argentinian air force located near the border with Brazil. But it is different. One of its hangars hides X-Com aircrafts. It's radars are modified to detect UFOs. Its ground to air missile systems are upgraded using technologies similar to ones used in Avalanche missiles. Underground it has a small production facility specialized on producing aircrafts parts. Also, base has a small pilot School that train anti-UFO tactics in simulators and mock fights with non-X-Com pilots.
Problems with this: We may not get the base on low roll. Numbers may not help us enough. Effect may be limited. It will be relatively easy to detect and attack later
Advantages: It helps with detection, it may give VP, it may give an additional way to shoot down their UFOs.
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If we do a remote-controlled aircraft, we can just ignore human limits on acceleration. Also allows for a smaller aircraft. A viable alternative is refitting ABMs to shoot down UFOs. ABMs already travel insanely fast and can catch up to something that's reentering the atmosphere. The benefit, of course, is that it only takes a revision.
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I am skeptical about ABM revision. If we do something like this it should be a design and part of our base (so covering Europe + Egypt at first)
Remote controlled aircraft is an option... but the missiles overshooting it's just barely as something blocks their sensors
looks like they are going ECM.
I really want to try some kind of second base
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I think our current optimal setup is
2xRavens
3xSkyrangers
3xNOTSOFT
3xXH-2
This spends all of our E, V and U. This kind of setup would likely bring us victory during this turn and we should default on it. What can we do to improve it?
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A better interceptor, we're going to need one anyway and honestly missiles are going to get worse till we acquire plasma warheads so the Sparrow is a good choice right now in my opinion.
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My problem with going for any kind of new interceptor right now are
1)We have no tech related tokens and no good tech to truly improve from Raven
2) Low roll is really punishing here. We may get aircraft that is not better.
3) If new aircraft is slightly better but more expensive... it is not better.
4) I am not sure that railgun is a great weapon to use at supersonic speeds. Its range seems limited.
We lost this turn not because we behind techwise but because we used our resources in inefficient way. From now on we need to spend all E, all W and all if possible.
I want something more versatile than new interceptor.
X-R Drone
X-R drone is a really small jet aircraft. It is unmanned jet aircraft with high speed and relatively low endurance. It can be controlled either through satellite uplink or directly by nearby X-COM operative. It is built around one weapon: high caliber railgun with a battery for a dozen of shots. It is designed to fit into Raven's hardpoints to be deployed midflight but it can be launched from the X-COM base (suffering from limited range) or attached to the roof of Skyranger.
Alien tech token would be great here but...
X-R drone (1): strongpoint
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We lost this turn not because we behind techwise but because we used our resources in inefficient way. From now on we need to spend all E, all W and all if possible.
Send the forces that are best for the job, not just the biggest force you can send. Don't use a sledgehammer when you should be using a chisel.
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Όλοι είστε θλιβεροί
Literally point out that *Down and Capture says you can wait.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
And Combined Arms was a copy of it. And really, why wouldn't you be able to? I do not understand that train of thought. Especially on a mission type focused on ground combat.
We lost 1:1 air battle before they upgraded(or technically a post mortem draw, but still).
XCOM Base-2: Argentina Outpost
We don't need to upgrade our ravens, we just need to use them properly next time. The enemy will be satisfied in the air to air arena for now. We need to control South America! (While the council member will still approve a base there, they leave if it is lost).
This is another underground base focused on undetectably above all else, using different meterials and techniques than the island incase that method is exposed.
New tech takes a turn to arrive at this base, in favor of a surplus of the old tech. The design will be compartmentalized for security incase a ground attack, and to allow construction to happen in segments. The initial segment will only offer a skeleton crew of men and vehicles. This will be presented as an act of good will to our South American council member, and our dedication to their region.
X-R drone (1): strongpoint
Argentina Outpost (1): roseheart
*Fixed: Said Combined Arms, meant Down and Capture.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I see nothing special in this kind of base, nothing that helps our current situation. It is just a - "make another base" kind of "design".
As for waiting them to land:
First: you quote a different type of mission,
Second: we don't choose tactics, we choose mission
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Strongpoint. I'll make you a simple bet. I'll do what I would have done if I had been more available last round.
I will ask the GM to clarify. If I'm wrong and the Ravens could not have waited for the UFOs to land I will vote for your plan. If I'm right you vote for my plan.
Are you sure you're right?
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I have zero interest of people voting for my plan due to reasons outside of the game logic. Neither I'll vote for a bad plan because of stuff happening outside of the game
I am like 90% sure that it is how it works because each and every aerial battle took place on the height of the detection and because it looks like that "(or waiting for it to land)" is there because Skyrangers can't engage on any other height.
10% are there if 10ebbor10 is willing to micromanage such stuff.
Now back to your base, what you want do you want to achieve except making South Americans happy?
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The wait for it to land bit is for when you decide to send only Skyrangers (or other aircraft without meaningfull air-to-air capability).
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Ebbor, how does using elerium/alien alloys/other alien tech work without the tokens? Since I'd imagine that we could use elerium (and maybe alien alloys) in any new designs since we have experience with the stuff now, but I'm not sure how that works with the token system.
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In any case, if anyone wants a base I suggest to vote for my version or come with your own that tries to gives us some benefits
This is another underground base focused on undetectably above all else, using different meterials and techniques than the island incase that method is exposed.
New tech takes a turn to arrive at this base, in favor of a surplus of the old tech. The design will be compartmentalized for security incase a ground attack, and to allow construction to happen in segments. The initial segment will only offer a skeleton crew of men and vehicles.
I think this whole thing is a waste of a design action. Hard to detect is hardly an important characteristic for a secondary base. It is obvious that Enemy has no base attack missions and it is extremely unlikely that they'll go this route in the near future. Base should offer something different to what we have in our main base.
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Strongpoint, I was wrong.
I misremembered operation Samurai over Japan. I thought, that it was about to land, and we used Down and Capture and waited for it to land and engage. This mission went relatively well, but in actual fact, the UFO HAD already landed. You may assign my vote this round.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Ebbor, how does using elerium/alien alloys/other alien tech work without the tokens? Since I'd imagine that we could use elerium (and maybe alien alloys) in any new designs since we have experience with the stuff now, but I'm not sure how that works with the token system.
You can use alien tech without tokens. If you've already used the tech in an equivalent situation(for example, your railgun power sources), it doesn't even have a difficulty penalty.
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Have two designs which I would like to try designing sometime.
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor
The Thunderbird is a new fighter design which uses Alien Alloy instead of more mundane materials for both its outer hull, allowing it to better survive glancing plasma strikes, and its internal structural supports, allowing it to reach speeds and make turns which would have literally snapped more mundane fighters into pieces. Beyond that, it also uses alien alloy in its engines, allowing them to run far hotter, and at a higher rate, then would otherwise be possible. These factors allow the craft to reach far higher speeds and maneuverability levels then any previously designed terrestrial aircraft, which should make it a far more effective craft when deployed against the alien vessels. The Thunderbird is armed with a nose mounted Railcannon and two wing mounted missile bays which are equipped to use Avalanches or, should new missiles eventually be designed, other munitions.
HWP-Railgun
This armored and automated drone can be operated either from the Skyranger or, should a connection be available, from any XCOM base. However, the operator does not have to decide every last action for the drone, as it is equipped with computer systems that can handle many minor details itself, based somewhat off the computers that allowed for the Mars Rover's remote management. Instead of the Operator driving the drone around like he or she is in a FPS, instead the Operator assigns targets and tells the drone where it needs to go, after which the computer systems can handle all the minor details like aiming the gun and choosing the exact path. Weaponwise, this HWP is armed with an upscaled railgun weapon that is supposed to be equal to a heavy machine gun (if with far more penetrative power) in use, as well as a small box launcher full of at least four mini-rockets for use against more heavily armored foes or when splash damage is needed. As well, the drone is armored in alien alloy to make it resistant to plasma.
Also for people who want a new outpost down in South America...
Well, this outpost and its ample hangers and air-focused workshop space will hopefully be useful when the UFOs next visit.
Argentina Airbase Outpost
This outpost is designed to extend XCOM's presence away from Europe and allow for faster and better equipped responses to alien attacks in the Americas. Unlike the island base it is not fully underground, instead depending upon heavy jungle cover to keep it from being visible from orbit. However many facilities are extended underground for easier defensibility and more working area. As well they are all connected underground to avoid the need to carve potentially revealing paths between the buildings. While the outpost does have a basic laboratory facility for examination of battlefield gleanings, its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities, and as such the majority of its space is dedicated towards hangers for XCOM craft, workshops to maintain and build more craft, and a few barracks so the Skyrangers will have soldiers to deliver. As well, there is also a liason's quarters with all the gear and fittings needed to support use of local InterAgency Cooperation Teams when they must be called in. If attacked, the base does have anti-air missile batteries as well as a defensive layout that will turn any attempt by the aliens to seize the base into a very nasty tunnelfight that will hopefully give the rest of XCOM time to send help, but the Outpost's primary defensive measure is supposed to be stealth.
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I was planning on making something similar, but I'll just vote for the Thunderbird instead. While having a new outpost to have more fighters would be nice, it's not going to do anything insane like double our VP capacity. We need a competent interceptor - we can't afford to send at least two Ravens every time the aliens deploy their fighter.
X-R drone (1): strongpoint
Argentina Outpost (1): roseheart
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
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You may assign my vote this round.
Seriously, vote as you wish, I didn't even accept the bet.
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor
The Thunderbird is a new fighter design which uses Alien Alloy instead of more mundane materials for both its outer hull, allowing it to better survive glancing plasma strikes, and its internal structural supports, allowing it to reach speeds and make turns which would have literally snapped more mundane fighters into pieces. Beyond that, it also uses alien alloy in its engines, allowing them to run far hotter, and at a higher rate, then would otherwise be possible. These factors allow the craft to reach far higher speeds and maneuverability levels then any previously designed terrestrial aircraft, which should make it a far more effective craft when deployed against the alien vessels. The Thunderbird is armed with a nose mounted Railcannon and two wing mounted missile bays which are equipped to use Avalanches or, should new missiles eventually be designed, other munitions.
I don't like direct replacement of Raven yet. I think it is not that obsolete and we can delay such action for few turns, preferably to moment when we'll have suitable tokens. Weapon for it or craft that fights in a different way look more optimal. This is why I offer a drone that is very different to Raven in fighting style and works well with it. What if it isn't much better? What if it costs more VP and no more cost effective? I think an interceptor is premature
HWP-Railgun
This armored and automated drone can be operated either from the Skyranger or, should a connection be available, from any XCOM base. However, the operator does not have to decide every last action for the drone, as it is equipped with computer systems that can handle many minor details itself, based somewhat off the computers that allowed for the Mars Rover's remote management. Instead of the Operator driving the drone around like he or she is in a FPS, instead the Operator assigns targets and tells the drone where it needs to go, after which the computer systems can handle all the minor details like aiming the gun and choosing the exact path. Weaponwise, this HWP is armed with an upscaled railgun weapon that is supposed to be equal to a heavy machine gun (if with far more penetrative power) in use, as well as a small box launcher full of at least four mini-rockets for use against more heavily armored foes or when splash damage is needed. As well, the drone is armored in alien alloy to make it resistant to plasma.
Do we have enough E for this? I am not sure. We can take E as our bonus for this turn. Also, I prefer flying things to tracked(?) things
Argentina Airbase Outpost
This outpost is designed to extend XCOM's presence away from Europe and allow for faster and better equipped responses to alien attacks in the Americas. Unlike the island base it is not fully underground, instead depending upon heavy jungle cover to keep it from being visible from orbit. However many facilities are extended underground for easier defensibility and more working area. As well they are all connected underground to avoid the need to carve potentially revealing paths between the buildings. While the outpost does have a basic laboratory facility for examination of battlefield gleanings, its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities, and as such the majority of its space is dedicated towards hangers for XCOM craft, workshops to maintain and build more craft, and a few barracks so the Skyrangers will have soldiers to deliver. If attacked, the base does have anti-air missile batteries as well as a defensive layout that will turn any attempt by the aliens to seize the base into a very nasty tunnelfight that will hopefully give the rest of XCOM time to send help, but the Outpost's primary defensive measure is supposed to be stealth.
I still like my idea of converting a regular airbase more. With much of infrastructure already in place design will be easier and we were told that bases aren't easy to get. Enemy may detect our activity, but so what? Will they spend an action to design base attack mission? Will they design necessary UFOs soon enough? Will they get enough from their investment? Will we be unable to intercept their mission? Attack on a secondary base doesn't worry me too much.
Also, I am skeptical about keeping bases stealthy. If they'll decide to detect them, they'll detect them in one way or another.
I was planning on making something similar, but I'll just vote for the Thunderbird instead. While having a new outpost to have more fighters would be nice, it's not going to do anything insane like double our VP capacity. We need a competent interceptor - we can't afford to send at least two Ravens every time the aliens deploy their fighter.
Bonus from Argentinian outpost will surely not be as insane as double VP, it really up to 10ebbor10, I don't think that base will give something as mundane as VP for additional aircraft(s)
I think it is early to go for a full replacement of Raven. We got no enough tech to justify it. Progress may be too small to justify design or design+revision. It may cost something like 4VP and be no less restrictive than Ravens. There are alternatives for improving our performance in the skies. Also, we can afford sending two ravens. There are no reason not to.
X-R drone (1): strongpoint
Argentina Outpost (1): roseheart
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
X-Com base South (1) :strongpoint
Added my alternative vote for my version of X-com base. Added a bit about pilot training to it. I believe both of my votes are better than a rushed design of a newer interceptor. I am sure that direct replacements are bad in arms races unless absolutely necessary
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...what? That's a terrible policy!
Direct replacements are good when whatever they're replacing is no longer as effective as it needs to be.
Two notes:
1.) The Raven is outclassed. It can sometimes beat their weakest UFO one-on-one and it is very inferior to their new fighter.
2.) If we make the Thunderbird and it turns out to be something like 3 VP, then that means we can still use the Raven as a cheaper fighter to be an escort for thunderbirds/to go against their starter UFOs. If it's 2 VP, then even better and we have an all-around better interceptor.
We spent all our VP on Ravens this turn and still had a severe loss. We accomplished exactly nothing in the air and spent everything we could on Ravens. This is bad. We do not want air engagements to be an autoloss, and we do not want to have to spend all our VP on Ravens, preventing us from getting more than one squad on the ground.
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...what? That's a terrible policy!
It is what people do.. If they have a working howitzer in 1914, they may keep it to the end of the game even if enemy present better howitzer in 1930s. Possible improvement doesn't worth opportunity cost of not designing something else.
Direct replacements are good when whatever they're replacing is no longer as effective as it needs to be.
And I am debating that it is not as effective as it needs to be. We don't have to be ahead in everything. We don't need to be far behind. Also, I am debating our ability to design something that will be noticeably better in this role. It is not like we are replacing a 1915 tank with a 1935 tank.
1.) The Raven is outclassed. It can sometimes beat their weakest UFO one-on-one and it is very inferior to their new fighter.
Raven is definitely better than their weakest UFO (not 100% victory but it is better) as for their new fighter we don't know its VP (in% of their total) cost to really say. It is probably behind, but how far behind?
2.) If we make the Thunderbird and it turns out to be something like 3 VP, then that means we can still use the Raven as a cheaper fighter to be an escort for thunderbirds/to go against their starter UFOs. If it's 2 VP, then even better and we have an all-around better interceptor.
What if it costs 3VP but only 25% better? Opportunity cost of doing nothing else with design is too high. I am afraid that we will get either a marginal increase in one field or no noticeable increase at all. Limitations of jet engine aren't going anywhere.
We spent all our VP on Ravens this turn and still had a severe loss. We accomplished exactly nothing in the air and spent everything we could on Ravens. This is bad.
We got quite unlucky in that battle in the air. It is clear from the GMs post. Also, both of my proposals try to improve our performance in the air just but in a different way. I am happy with any way. New missile, railgun for raven hardpoints, surface to air missiles, new radars, pilot training. Anything but new fighter. I believe that it is too early.
We do not want air engagements to be an autoloss, and we do not want to have to spend all our VP on Ravens, preventing us from getting more than one squad on the ground.
Note that if we went for 2 ravens\2 skyrangers we would likely win. Do not overvalue importance of battles in the air. Do not underestimate our chances, we still have battles on different attitude and rolls may fall in our favor.
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I don't like direct replacement of Raven yet. I think it is not that obsolete and we can delay such action for few turns, preferably to moment when we'll have suitable tokens. Weapon for it or craft that fights in a different way look more optimal. This is why I offer a drone that is very different to Raven in fighting style and works well with it. What if it isn't much better? What if it costs more VP and no more cost effective? I think an interceptor is premature
Personally, I'd kinda prefer to wait till we spend an alien tech token on the alien drone engines for some basic anti-grav (probably used more for inertial buffering then thrust if I rewrite this later after we do that), but since people were talking about needing a better interceptor I wrote this up. At this point in time, I don't consider your drone idea worth it though, because it's lack of endurance combined with few shots and the current fragility of our aircraft make me doubt it'd be effective enough to replace half of our Raven's missiles with one.
Do we have enough E for this? I am not sure. We can take E as our bonus for this turn. Also, I prefer flying things to tracked(?) things
Again, we don't have anti-grav yet and there's no way we can make a worthwhile flying tank with only earthtech. Personally I consider this probably worth it because it'll combine firepower with something that should actually be able to survive being shot a few times, but I don't consider this urgent right now. Our normal railguns seem to be working fine in ground combat, and it was lack of numbers that really screwed us over. A HWP of this design or three probably would have been helpful with rockets and a stronger cover penetrating railgun, but so would have been more dudes to do flanking maneuvers with. But I was writing up designs anyway and wanted to get this one out here for consideration.
I still like my idea of converting a regular airbase more. With much of infrastructure already in place design will be easier and we were told that bases aren't easy to get. Enemy may detect our activity, but so what? Will they spend an action to design base attack mission? Will they design necessary UFOs soon enough? Will they get enough from their investment? Will we be unable to intercept their mission? Attack on a secondary base doesn't worry me too much.
Also, I am skeptical about keeping bases stealthy. If they'll decide to detect them, they'll detect them in one way or another.
Just because something is possible doesn't mean that we should make it easy for the other side. Even if they don't do it yet, they'll do it sometime and then we'd be at risk of having them just snap up all our low hanging fruit. Also if they blow up a national airbase and one of our bases at the same time, that risks letting them get more panic and our base simultaneously, and I don't want to risk that.
Bonus from Argentinian outpost will surely not be as insane as double VP, it really up to 10ebbor10, I don't think that base will give something as mundane as VP for additional aircraft(s)
Even 2 more VP would make it worth it in my eyes, much less the chance for more EP and UP. Also, why wouldn't a base give more points? Having more stuff is what bases in XCOM are for, and its not like this is some special super secret psionic training base or something.
Anyway, I"m voting for my base because I'd like an alien tech token so I can add inertial buffering to the Thunderbird's description before we design it, so it can make max use of its higher speed and maneuverability instead of risking being limited by its pilots, and more vehicle points are never bad to get and will always be useful later on no matter what interceptor we're using.
X-R drone (1): strongpoint
Argentina Outpost (2): roseheart, Happerry
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
X-Com base South (1) :strongpoint
Also, what kind of free point do people want to get? Personally I'd like to get another VP and spend it on a second Skyranger, but I could see arguments for saving it for later or even using it for a UP and spending it on NOTSOFTER
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X-R drone (1): strongpoint
Argentina Outpost (2): roseheart, Happerry
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (2): Chiefwaffles, Stabby
X-Com base South (1) :strongpoint
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I don't consider your drone idea worth it though, because it's lack of endurance combined with few shots and the current fragility of our aircraft make me doubt it'd be effective enough to replace half of our Raven's missiles with one.
Half of the missiles?
(http://www.f-16.net/g3/var/resizes/F-16-net-Site-graphics9/album120/album55/aah.png?m=1370461537)
Just because something is possible doesn't mean that we should make it easy for the other side. Even if they don't do it yet, they'll do it sometime and then we'd be at risk of having them just snap up all our low hanging fruit.
We need impact now. We can handle problems later if they'll arise. I am sure They'll be unable to use the vulnerability immediately, we will be able to use benefits of such base immediately. It is a simple bargain for me. Besides it is not that easy to detect. There are many military airbases in the world.
Even 2 more VP would make it worth it in my eyes
I seriously doubt that variant of the base you are voting for can give 2 VP. It has nothing industrial in it description. It is literally - "make a well hidden and safe place to deliver outdated equipment to". What you ask, that you get.
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I don't consider your drone idea worth it though, because it's lack of endurance combined with few shots and the current fragility of our aircraft make me doubt it'd be effective enough to replace half of our Raven's missiles with one.
Half of the missiles?
(http://www.f-16.net/g3/var/resizes/F-16-net-Site-graphics9/album120/album55/aah.png?m=1370461537)
Fine, a third of them. Assuming that we can fit an anti-UFO scale railcannon into something that small at least, which I personally doubt.
Just because something is possible doesn't mean that we should make it easy for the other side. Even if they don't do it yet, they'll do it sometime and then we'd be at risk of having them just snap up all our low hanging fruit.
We need impact now. We can handle problems later if they'll arise. I am sure They'll be unable to use the vulnerability immediately, we will be able to use benefits of such base immediately. It is a simple bargain for me. Besides it is not that easy to detect. There are many military airbases in the world.
Call this a difference in willingness to risk then?
Even 2 more VP would make it worth it in my eyes
I seriously doubt that variant of the base you are voting for can give 2 VP. It has nothing industrial in it description. It is literally - "make a well hidden and safe place to deliver outdated equipment to". What you ask, that you get.
Er, what? This forces me to ask if you even bothered to read my base design, because that isn't anywhere in the description at all. Are you sure you aren't getting your design and mine confused? My base design has shiny air workshops to make shiny new ravens in the shiny hangers that support said aircraft. It's all about deploying and supporting and making aircraft, with some soldiers to put on the Skyrangers too. I mean, did you miss the part where it said that "the majority of its space is dedicated towards hangers for XCOM craft, workshops to maintain and build more craft, and a few barracks so the Skyrangers will have soldiers to deliver"?
It should give far more VP then yours if you think workshops are the only thing that gives more VP, given it'll have a far more building power then some tiny cramped workshop built secretly underground an already existing military base.
X-R drone (1): strongpoint
roseheart's Argentina Outpost (1): roseheart
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (1): Happerry
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (2): Chiefwaffles, Stabby
X-Com base South (1) :strongpoint
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Are you sure you aren't getting your design and mine confused?
Well, you voted for roseheart's first. Yours is still very straightforward but clear and logical. I don't think that it will get a better result than a design we did on turn 2 that gave us 1VP (unless 7+ will be rolled)
Call this a difference in willingness to risk then?
Well, your risk is just different. I consider building that kind of base harder than converting an air base even with additional problem of negotiating cooperation. We were told that bases are hard to get
It should give far more VP then yours if you think workshops are the only thing that gives more VP, given it'll have a far more building power then some tiny cramped workshop built secretly underground an already existing military base.
True, My suggestion isn't focused on VP at all. It is focused on better use of already existing aircrafts and cooperation with local airforce. It is meant to be a real small X-COM base within regular military base not a huge partly undeground complex built from scratch
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Are you sure you aren't getting your design and mine confused?
Well, you voted for roseheart's first. Yours is still very straightforward but clear and logical. I don't think that it will get a better result than a design we did on turn 2 that gave us 1VP (unless 7+ will be rolled)
Fair enough, I admittedly got mixed up a bit when I gave my first vote. Personally I think it'll do better then 1VP, but that's because I think having local airbases spread across the world also effects our VP supply, because VP is basically how many vehicles we can manage to throw at something so local airbases should make it easier to throw planes around and more buildy bases should also help. But I guess we'll see if one of the base vote wins. Either way, it'll be good to get more data on how bases work.
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Two revisions that I think could be useful as our revision later this turn:
Future Revision: Cheaper Ravens
It turns out that using alien alloy components in just the right places can eliminate a decent amount of complexity and extra components that would otherwise come with regular human-originating materials. The Raven's engines are the perfect case example here; by just implementing a tiny amount of alloys in the right spots (kind of like we did with the XH-2), we can drastically reduce the amount of time and resources needed to build individual Ravens.
TL;DR: Add a tiny bit of alloys in the right spots in Ravens in order to reduce overall material costs to the point where a Raven hopefully becomes 1 VP to field.
Future Revision: Personal Alloy Plating
It turns out that stuff we used on our railguns makes for great armor. Who knew.
By placing plates of alien alloy over important parts of our soldiers body, we hope to drastically increase survivability. We're not aiming for anywhere near complete body coverage, but mostly want to make it so getting hit by plasma shots (and explosions) isn't a complete death sentence for our troops.
I'd probably be willing to vote for an airbase if we were to do Cheaper Ravens, at least.
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I am ready to vote for most Raven revisions be it cost reduction, improvement of engines, improvement of avalanches or addition of a railgun. Unlike new interceptors I expect it to be useful almost always
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Future Revision: Personal Alloy Plating
It turns out that stuff we used on our railguns makes for great armor. Who knew.
By placing plates of alien alloy over important parts of our soldiers body, we hope to drastically increase survivability. We're not aiming for anywhere near complete body coverage, but mostly want to make it so getting hit by plasma shots (and explosions) isn't a complete death sentence for our troops.
Maybe try a mixture of Ceramics reinforced with alien alloy to make it cheaper? But alloy armor would be nice to have, yah. I'd just prefer to spend a design on it to make sure it's done right.
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Hm... Just an idea, We can also go for something like this
Elite pilot training program
Like X-com needed assistance of the best special forces of the world to create its own elite infantry, it required help from world's best airforces to develop new ways of fighting against new threats. With assistance of the best aerospace specialists of the world X-COM constructed complex training simulators that mimic performance of known UFOs and even allows to program new possible bogies with hypothetical "impossible maneuverability" taking inspiration from everything from scientific theories to popular sci-fi shows. This allows pilots to train to fight against targets that move in a very bizarre ways and develop tactic different to ones used against other jet aircrafts. Hopefully such training will make pilots ready for everything.
Thoughts? It worked with NOTSOFT, it may work with pilots.
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Honestly I'm less worried about our pilots skill, they've been doing ok, as I am worried about the bit where something blocked our missiles' sensors. If we want an air upgrade, the biggest argument for the Thunderbird right now might be it's built in Railcannon, and if we don't do the Thunderbird we might want to see if we can revise up a Railcannon for our Ravens, so we can bypass whatever ECM thing or cloak or whatever that kept our missiles from hitting.
Is definitely something to consider for the future though.
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If we want railguns for ravens we may design an external one to be mounted on hardpoints... But I am not sure that railgun is the best way to hit supersonic targets.
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If we want railguns for ravens we may design an external one to be mounted on hardpoints... But I am not sure that railgun is the best way to hit supersonic targets.
It's still a better way then any terrestrial autocannon though, and if they are jamming our missiles we need some sort of gun.
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We have never lost an airbattle due to lack of firepower.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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We could win way more battles if our missiles hit more often. And it’s pretty naive to think they’d stop their ECM at “occasionally works if they focus”.
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When we are being surprised before we can get a target lock, that issue is mute.
What I'd like to know is, the scope of this game. Really, if they found our base, I think that would be game over.
Is it possible, they are just as vulnerable? What are we doing to strike our enemies weak spot? Nothing.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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If they find our base, they can likely design a mission to invade it then dedicated to invading it.
However, we would have a very substantial bonus in defense. It’d be the exact same thing if we found their base.
Right now, I’m certain it’s not worth it for either side to spend time and actions looking for and trying to invade the other’s base. We have only a minor advantage on ground (when not outnumbered) and they have a minor advantage in the air. The time a side takes to find and get ready to invade the other’s base leaves the enemy open to catching up in advantage, then the attackers would have to overcome the enemies’ defensive base advantage as well.
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What does your checklist to defeat our enemy, look like?
X•COM TRUSTEE
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If I had to make a checklist (I think this kind of thing is much better dealt with on the fly), then it'd be:
1.) Gain notable advantage over enemy - one that at least can't be overcome with a single 8-rolling design and revision.
2a.) Find enemy's main base. This is probably best done along the way and as an intentional side effect - we'd be better off doing getting lucky and getting the location when interrogating an enemy, or getting its location as a side effect of some new sensor technology. Etc.
2b.) If needed, ensure we have the transport craft able to reach the enemy's base. Like how in X-COM UFO Defense you need the Avenger in order to be able to send troops to mars, where the aliens' base is.
3.) Create mission type to invade enemy's base. Could maybe be a revision. Just "send our stuff to their base."
4.) Execute mission with all our available assets.
The exact requirements to win the game may be different if ebbor's doing something unique (and there will most definitely be complications because you can't just perfectly predict how an AR will go), but this is the by far the most logical way of interpreting XCOM games into AR rules. In all four "main" XCom games (UFO Defense, Terror from the Deep, XCOM:EU, XCOM2) you do the same thing - you fend off the enemy until you figure out where their base is and you grow strong enough to invade it.
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We have a kind of HP I do not see on the enemy side, the panic world map. I agree interrogation and maybe sensors(where are our satellites? I remember those being important in-game) will be important landmarks on our roadmap. Superiority is an ideal situation, I don't think this game will naturally flow there.
Realistically, if I want to imagine a scenario where we've won, any superiority we get will be fleeting, an advantage our enemy could take from us, but we pushed when we had it.
I believe we should interrogate and dissect our foe, now. It will get us moving in the right direction.
Our railguns are effective. If we storm them with even or superior numbers we can take prisoners. If we are ready to proceed.
Alien Containment and Arc Thrower
We simply do not know our enemy, especially their telepathic abilities.
If we capture 1 we can study it to better understand what we are dealing with. (We need to go down this route earlier, rather than later)
Stuns organic and mechanical targets. Highly effective but short range. The containment is specially designed to scan all their passive vitals and activity of living subjects. Durable, secure, inescapable.
We can also spend our Revision mounting these on production military drones. That, along with our drone detecting scopes will help us get the jump on mechanical and telepathic soldiers.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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X-R drone (1): strongpoint
roseheart's Argentina Outpost (1): roseheart
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (1): Happerry
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (2): Chiefwaffles, Stabby
X-Com base South (2) :strongpoint, Cnidaros
I don't think upgrading an interceptor is worth it if we have no tokens to spend. Either way we're quite screwed from spending both tokens on ground stuff last turn. I would suggest going all Skyranger next turn and swamping them when they land. Unless that new UFO is a dedicated fighter and just keeps patrolling around the landed UFOs, in which case welp.
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You know, I think we are playing too fair with Aliens. HEAT warheads in Avalanche? Why not use the most powerful weapon humanity already has?
Landslide
Landslide is a second generation of X-COM of air to air missile. There many differences in missile design comparing to Avalanche. The most important change is the world smallest 15kg nuclear warhead. Also, it got a new generation of on-board electronics which is better isolated and powered by a miniature Elerium element. Missile is made lighter and its rocket engine is improved with the help of new materials learned during development of XH. Landslide has both impact and radio proximity fuse allowing it to work on near misses.
I would suggest going all Skyranger next turn and swamping them when they land. Unless that new UFO is a dedicated fighter and just keeps patrolling around the landed UFOs, in which case welp.
First, it is an overreaction. Second even if we'll get forth UP, we can use only half of our VP on Skyrangers. There are no reason to not send 2 Ravens against any opponent. Look. If we were a tiny bit more lucky and severely damaged one lander, this could be a victory
Anyway... Just saying... If my version of new X-Com base will win... and need no urgent fix via revision, I'll 100% propose several of Raven revisions(and will vote for one of them) to improve effect of the new base and benefit from cooperation with another air force. I hope that the way I do the base will give some bonus for aircraft research.
roseheart's Argentina Outpost (1): roseheart
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (1): Happerry
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (2): Chiefwaffles, Stabby
X-Com base South (2) :strongpoint, Cnidaros
Deleted the drone. It may be too fancy too really work and I want to try an X-COM base more
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Trinity Airbase (XCOM south base front)
On the first glance this base is nothing but a mundane air base of Argentinian air force located near the border with Brazil. But it is different. One of its hangar hides X-Com aircraft. It's radars are modified to detect UFOs. Its ground to air missiles are upgraded using technologies similar to ones used in Avalanche missiles.
However many facilities are extended underground for easier defensibility and more working area. As well they are all connected underground to avoid the need to carve potentially revealing paths between the buildings. While the outpost does have a basic laboratory facility for examination of battlefield gleanings, its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities, and as such the majority of its space is dedicated towards hangers for XCOM craft, workshops to maintain and build more craft, and a few barracks so the Skyrangers will have soldiers to deliver.
This will be presented as an act of good will to our South American council member, and our dedication to their region.
Addit:
[Expands the] InterAgency Cooperation Teams [to this area of the world.] Right now we only get free transport for them in NA and Europe, and it'd make sense for a base in SA to easily set up the logistics/relations/whatever for the free transportation to also apply to SA.
Arc Thrower and Containment (1): roseheart
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (1): Happerry
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (2): Chiefwaffles, Stabby
X-Com base South (2): strongpoint, Cnidaros
Trinity Airbase (1): roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Design
Arc Thrower and Containment (1): roseheart
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (2): Happerry, Chiefwaffles
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (2): Stabby
X-Com base South (2): strongpoint, Cnidaros
Trinity Airbase (1): roseheart
Resource Point
EP (1): Chiefwaffles
I'm also voting for the EP. Right now we only have three EP - meaning if we send three squads out on one turn, we can only give each of them one piece of "cheap" equipment. That's really not okay. This extensively prohibits us from further equipment development.
Also, Happerry, would you mind mentioning InterAgency Cooperation Teams in your base design? Right now we only get free transport for them in NA and Europe, and it'd make sense for a base in SA to easily set up the logistics/relations/whatever for the free transportation to also apply to SA.
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Design's now been edited with a Liason's center for InterAgency Cooperation Teams.
Also, is someone gonna try making a battle report for that challenge?
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Isn't it too early to decide how to spend our point? Don't we have some time till the end of the turn?
I still prefer my version of X-COM base because I think it is easier to build, have greater potential in case of unexpected boons and more focused on our current problem of lacking strength in the air instead of building another universal base with only slight differences to our main one. I believe that specialization is good, getting more of the same is less so.
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They both involve reclaiming an Airbase. Yes the combined plan adds the underground component, but specifies it will grow overtime, and just have a small initial setup.
I would say the combined design, will quickly offer more VP, as it is literally a VP factory. So I don't see that.
I will look into the InterAgency thing.
Edit:
Added.
Also I recommend we do not make a new aircraft until we build this base.
Though perhaps as a revision if the base doesn't need it. Yet a aircraft factory(which any of these plans are) will aid aircraft development.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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My problems with Trinity:
I don't really get the skeleton crew and compartmentalized construction part of it. It just feels like it intentionally hurts us so we can supposedly expand it later, but 1.) we should be able to do that regardless of preparing for it in a design and 2.) I doubt we'll ever really need to expand it if we're just using it for VP. Which I believe we are.
Also, the location (exposed airbase) is extremely bad for defense. Stealth is by far the strongest (and easiest) defense we could have. It more-or-less brings everything I dislike about South into its design.
My problems with South:
It's extremely indefensible. Aliens can already jam our A2A missiles. They can easily just blow it up from the air. They can quite easily find it. The modification of the radar to find UFOs is something I don't think we've done before (if we have; good, but there are still other issues), and again - the missile defense seems extremely lackluster. Especially when the base is barely hidden.
For comparison, in X-Com UFO Defense, TFTD, and Xenonauts (the only XCOM games with base defense), active base defenses like missiles and whatnot just add a chance to reduce the number of attacking aliens. If you really overinvest in good base defense, there's a chance of destroying the invasion force entirely. While the South base just has a missile battery and we know from experience that missiles both aren't guaranteed to destroy their craft and that their craft can now scramble missiles.
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Trinity expands automatically.
Hmm, yep I agree. I removed the base elements from my part of the third.
Strongpoint that factory has got to go somewhere. We don't have a need for a more easily scanned base, nor is digging a hole and adding sensor insilated rooms beyond a modest scope.
At the very least you could make it a secondary vote, it is largely your baby, but it does have much of your peers' input.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I honestly considered adding Railgun AA to my base plan back when I was first writing it, but I didn't want to try for that upgrade when we've only put rifles into production at this point.
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I mean, railgun AA would probably be really easy (the hard part of the XH1 and its revision was downscaling modern railguns and removing the flaws associated with them - we already have large modern railguns that we can port over the improvements to) but I agree; it probably wouldn't be worth it for the extra difficulty despite its ease.
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If we'd already made a base i probably would have tried for them, but even if railgun defenses should be easy it is our first base (if it wins at least) and so I wanted to limit the amount of 'shiny new bits' it had.
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Aliens can already jam our A2A missiles. They can easily just blow it up from the air.
If they'll be that ahead in airforce that they can just go and destroy a base in this way... that means the game is lost. And we are talking not about just few A2A missiles. We are talking about a freaking military airbase with their own (inferior but functional) fighters, SAM, radar guided AA guns. Even if they'll spend a design for ground attack mission, design for air to ground attack weapon and spend all their VP on their fighter UFO, I still don't think they can outright win this kind of battle.
In fact I consider my version to be far, far better defended than Happery's version. I don't think that stealth will really work should they decide to start eradicating our bases stealth will be dealt with easily
For comparison, in X-Com UFO Defense, TFTD, and Xenonauts (the only XCOM games with base defense), active base defenses like missiles and whatnot just add a chance to reduce the number of attacking aliens.
Against battleships that come around late in the game. And no, in old X-COM you could build enough defense to shoot down enemy UFOs before they land and avoid the battle.
You don't expect that we'll have some improvements for active base defense till we come to this point, right?
roseheart, I dislike that trinity, just like Happery's original base tries to be an airforce base, a research base, a NOTSOFT base, manufacturing base with only a slight preference to airforce related things. Also, I consider negotiating with government about usage of their airbase to be the hardest part of my design, if we do everything that Happerry's version does, than it just a way to increase difficulty and we gain little from basing our base on existing infrastructure. In other words between Trinity and Happerry I would choose Happery. You are trying to combine bases with very different philosophy
Happerry: Build a regular X-Com base with a slight emphasis on airforce
Me: Build a base focused on using fighters, with minimal manufacturing for maintenance of stationed fighters, some air defense, and no other facilities.
Those don't mix well together
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If the aliens had any problem against conventional military assets then we wouldn't be needed.
And your analysis of Happerry's base is just silly.
Argentina Airbase Outpost
This outpost is designed to extend XCOM's presence away from Europe and allow for faster and better equipped responses to alien attacks in the Americas. Unlike the island base it is not fully underground, instead depending upon heavy jungle cover to keep it from being visible from orbit. However many facilities are extended underground for easier defensibility and more working area. As well they are all connected underground to avoid the need to carve potentially revealing paths between the buildings. While the outpost does have a basic laboratory facility for examination of battlefield gleanings, its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities, and as such the majority of its space is dedicated towards hangers for XCOM craft, workshops to maintain and build more craft, and a few barracks so the Skyrangers will have soldiers to deliver. As well, there is also a liason's quarters with all the gear and fittings needed to support use of local InterAgency Cooperation Teams when they must be called in. If attacked, the base does have anti-air missile batteries as well as a defensive layout that will turn any attempt by the aliens to seize the base into a very nasty tunnelfight that will hopefully give the rest of XCOM time to send help, but the Outpost's primary defensive measure is supposed to be stealth.
The base is very explicitly an airbase. The workshops are just to allow it to actually have XCOM aircraft in it. The barracks are so Skyrangers can properly originate from it. Everything else is just considerations to allow it to serve as a basic extension of influence without any notable increase in difficulty.
We're not trying to recreate anything near the caliber of our base lab (the new lab would more or less be a small room with some standard measurement tools so they can see "okay this is radioactive we should take preparations before shipping it to central base" or "hey this is alien alloy we can just use it for making the [future alien alloy XCOM craft] instead of sending it back). We're not trying to make workshops to do anything other than aircraft. We're not trying to make barracks that do anything more than "have beds so soldiers can sleep in them". We're making an airbase that's a bit more than "literally just a couple of hangars and defenses" because not doing so would hurt us for no actual reason.
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If the aliens had any problem against conventional military assets then we wouldn't be needed
I wanna see them assaulting a regular military base if they have no problems with conventional military assets. Imagine what kind of panic that would cause!
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Basic laboratory is still a labaratory. What stops us from Skyrangering whatever need to be analyzed to Europe?
Few barracks are still barracks. Description makes it clear that it is meant to be a base for ground operations, too.
Workshops are there to maintain and build crafts. Just your regular workshops we have in Europe with emphasis on aircrafts, What stops us from just transfering Ravens from Europe?
I don't deny emphasis on Airforce, I am saying that it is still a slight variation of our main base.
Mechanically Happerry's base tries to:
a) Get VP (workshops)
b) Get EP (workshops)
c) Get bonus to research (lab)
d) Get UP (barrakcs)
It is a lot of stuff. This is what any generic base tries to do.
My base tries to
a) Get VP (maintenance workshop, "free" fuel, assistance from base's staff, etc)
b) Get whatever bonuses to airforce 10ebbor10 will come with basing on the base description.
Don't tell me that that they are trying to do same thing. I am not saying that Happery approach is bad (I do prefer another). I am saying that our proposals are trying to do very different things and it is wrong to treat them as variations of the same thing. Because they are not. Not at all. The only thing in common are that they are both bases and both in South America.
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I wanna see them assaulting a regular military base if they have no problems with conventional military assets. Imagine what kind of panic that would cause!
You mean a terror attack?
Because that's a terror attack. There's even a map in XCOM:EU which is literally a military base. Complete with wrecked tanks and all. Then there's the extremely obvious question where "if our conventional military could handle the aliens, why are we needed anywhere ever?"
Basic laboratory is still a labaratory. What stops us from Skyrangering whatever need to be analyzed to Europe?
Well, first, it's been extremely clear that the Skyranger is an expensive and unique aircraft designed to transport a single squad and any non-heavy gear with them. It's not a transport aircraft.
Second, I don't think you understand just how easy a "basic laboratory" is. Because it'd be extremely easy. It's also clear that the purpose isn't actually to do research anywhere near the caliber of our designs or revisions./ It's just basic material analysis - an exceedingly simple task. Which feels like it should be obvious, even to you.
Few barracks are still barracks. Description makes it clear that it is meant to be a base for ground operations, too.
Ah, yes, because throwing a couple of bunkbeds in its own room is sure to cause a drastic increase in difficulty.
Workshops are there to maintain and build crafts. Just your regular workshops we have in Europe with emphasis on aircrafts, What stops us from just transfering Ravens from Europe?
Logistics?
I don't deny emphasis on Airforce, I am saying that it is still a slight variation of our main base.
And I am saying that you are completely wrong in this analysis.
Mechanically Happerry's base tries to:
a) Get VP (workshops)
b) Get EP (workshops)
c) Get bonus to research (lab)
d) Get UP (barrakcs)
It is a lot of stuff. This is what any generic base tries to do.
Oh boy, this is an especially stupid one.
a.) Yes.
b.) ...how do you even conclude this? The workshops are very explicitly for maintaining and building aircraft. How the hell are you saying we're trying to do EP as well?
c.) ...what? Did you actually read Happerry's design? Or any of my posts? Jesus Christ. We're not trying to get a bonus to research. It's nothing more than fluff. A lab good enough to give a bonus in research (which is unprecedented in ARs, by the way) could never be described as "basic".
d.) UP is our capacity to recruit and train soldiers. The barracks is literally just "some bunkbeds in a room." We're not adding training facilities. We're not expanding our ability to recruit. We're just saying "throw in some bunkbeds in an empty room."
My base tries to
a) Get VP (maintenance workshop, "free" fuel, assistance from base's staff, etc)
b) Get whatever bonuses to airforce 10ebbor10 will come with basing on the base description.
a.) Not that your design wouldn't (probably) give us VP, but saying that some maintenance workshops and extra fuel will increase our capacity to build extraordinarily expensive experimental cutting edge interceptors makes no sense.
b.) "oh yeah we'll just let the GM decide what this actually does" is perhaps the worst strategy one could ever come up with in this type of game.
Then there's the part where you're trying to defend a conventional airbase from aliens using radar and g2a missiles and nothing else. Which is a very bad idea for aforementioned reasons.
Don't tell me that that they are trying to do same thing. I am not saying that Happery approach is bad (I do prefer another). I am saying that our proposals are trying to do very different things and it is wrong to treat them as variations of the same thing. Because they are not. Not at all. The only thing in common are that they are both bases and both in South America.
Happerry's proposal is "make an airbase and don't needlessly cripple it just 'cause"
Your proposal is "make a completely indefensible airbase and make sure not to include any beyond-trivial QoL aspects!"
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You mean a terror attack?
Because that's a terror attack. There's even a map in XCOM:EU which is literally a military base. Complete with wrecked tanks and all. Then there's the extremely obvious question where "if our conventional military could handle the aliens, why are we needed anywhere ever?"
Yes I want to see them making a terror attack against military base. And wish them good luck
b.) ...how do you even conclude this? The workshops are very explicitly for maintaining and building aircraft. How the hell are you saying we're trying to do EP as well?
At the very least because aircraft equipment like special rockets can be E, too. Also, workshops are never that specialized. If workshop can build... lets say aircrafts from alien alloys, it surely can make personal armor
c.) ...what? Did you actually read Happerry's design? Or any of my posts? Jesus Christ. We're not trying to get a bonus to research. It's nothing more than fluff. A lab good enough to give a bonus in research (which is unprecedented in ARs, by the way) could never be described as "basic".
Basic lab means bonus to research. You have equipment, you have scientists. No bonus to research = no lab
d.) UP is our capacity to recruit and train soldiers. The barracks is literally just "some bunkbeds in a room." We're not adding training facilities. We're not expanding our ability to recruit. We're just saying "throw in some bunkbeds in an empty room."
Again, it is a clear soldier related stuff. If main base gives 3U, while this one that has barracks (and, logically, warehouse to story weapons, and training grounds because if you keep soldiers there on permanent basis you must have those) it should give 1U or 2U
Not that your design wouldn't (probably) give us VP, but saying that some maintenance workshops and extra fuel will increase our capacity to build extraordinarily expensive experimental cutting edge interceptors makes no sense.
Maintenance is not much less important than actual construction
b.) "oh yeah we'll just let the GM decide what this actually does" is perhaps the worst strategy one could ever come up with in this type of game.
Lol, what? Any design is letting GM to decide how something will work based on description provided. I hope for bonus to pilot's perfomance, bonus to detection, getting aircraft version of InterAgency Cooperation Teams and so on. How 10ebbor10 will interpret the design and rolls is unknown
Happerry's proposal is "make an airbase and don't needlessly cripple it just 'cause"
No. It is make a modification of our current base with less space for labs\soldiers, more space for aircrafts and specialized workshops of same size. It is an airbase only by name.
Your proposal is make a completely indefensible airbase and make sure not to include any beyond-trivial QoL aspects
My proposal is to make an adequately defensible airbase with potential of increasing it defense in future and make sure to not include non-airforce related stuff to make base as easy to design and as hard to detect as possible. You completely miss the fact that this base tries to be stealthy, too. Just in a different way.
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Well I tried.
Strongpoint, it is either: you vs me vs chief and Happ, or you and me come together quickly to have a seat at the table. If we can look over artificial differences, really, you wanted an aircraft factory did you not, so some research is good.
Chief is totally against the airbase, tbh, I am neutral.
Happery, can you add the part about improving relations with the South American council member(to reduce panic)? I believe this is worth pointing out and should not just be assumed. Presentation is key. The plan could be resisted if ham handled.
If you haven't noticed I tend to be the round closer. I can compromise. Just sweeten the deal fellas.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Design
Arc Thrower and Containment (1): roseheart
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (2): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor (0):
X-Com base South (2): strongpoint, Cnidaros
Trinity Airbase (1): roseheart
Resource Point
EP (1): Chiefwaffles
Hey don't forget about me I'm siding with Happery and Chiefwaffles on this, also in the history of Sci-Fi when has a open air base ever been a good idea against a enemy with orbital supremacy which they can use to come down right on top of it without warning.?
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Well, I tried....
I fail to see why are you so paranoid about attack and why majority is worried about a minor asset like secondary base, why you want to go for a much more resource intensive design with large scale construction.
My proposal is about getting a small and quite well hidden base with some additional defense. You make it sound like I want a huge base with a huge "attack here" sign visible from orbit.
I really fail to see how Happery's proposal will defend better against detection and\or destruction.
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An airbase has advantages. I am not convinced it will be as defensible, but it will be cheap VP.
It should be undetectible. Routine airbase traffic will be a cover for our own. There may be political benefits to getting in close with the South American military.
It is aggressive expansion, and I like that.
Uh, I'd rather have to many troops, than too many guns. Unused EP never help, but with an airbase, we'll always be able to fill another skyranger.
Design
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (3): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
X-Com base South (3): strongpoint, Cnidaros, roseheart
Resource Point
EP (1): Chiefwaffles
UP (1): roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Ties are good! Ties are great! Who didn't vote? Madman?
Trying to bring order to my thoughts on both proposals
Difficulty: Base South looks easier to design because it doesn't involve much construction in the middle of nowhere. After all Base South was born when I was thinking - how to make a base with a minimal investment after 10ebbor10s "base is not an easy design" comment.
Detection: Base South is harder to detect during construction because it involves much less machinery to dig and build. It is harder to detect by observing from orbit because its activity is masked by a regular air base traffic. On other hand Base South have a problem of more people knowing about it and if enemy have\will have agents on earth this may be a problem
Defense: Base South has a better defense short term because it is built amidst a military base. Argentina Outpost will have a better defense when technology of aliens will get to the point when they can ignore non X-COM military forces. Note that Base South can be revised
Impact: Base South aims for less. It is a minor base. It is a hangar+small workshop worth of stuff. Argentina Outopst despite its name is not an outpost. It is a full sized base. It will bring more stuff for the cost of being harder to build
Impact of losing against base attack Base South have few engineers, no scientists, no large warehouses with infantry equipment so negative impact on X-COM should be minimal. On other hand attack on airbase counts as free terror mission.
Panic Meter Base South looks like a more direct help. We essentially reinforcing our ally and share some technologies. Argentinian Outposts is just "give us some land for new base"
Synergy with existing techs: Base South tries to go on with our ongoing cooperation with world arms in form of drone recon and special forces units. We made few steps in this direction, it is good to make more steps in the same direction.
BTW
10ebbor10
Do we need to distribute token NOW or we can wait till reaction phase?
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Challenge : Write a (short) excerpt on any of the recent battles from any perspective. (Reward : ??? + 1 unrestricted token)
Host: Is heaven real? Does it get cellphone reception? One woman says yes. That's the topic today on Miracle Witness!
Host: My condolences for your loss. Your brother was killed while vacationing in Brazil- when was the last time you heard from him?
Guest: Thank you. He texted me before he left. Within a day I got the call he had died in the terrorists attack.
Host: ...and that's when the miracle happened?
Guest: I got another text a day later.
Host: What did these texts say.
Guest: The first was just wishing me a happy birthday and apology he couldn't miss this chance to get away.
Host: The second.
Guest: Just...a jumble of random symbols. But...
Host: ...yes?
Guest: They were...changing and...
Host: Uh huh?
Guest: I saw his face! They formed his face! It is a miracle! But, why did you look so weary brother?? So...cold. So...empty.
Guest: You were such a joy to many, so pious. Of course you went to the golden kingdom. Do not be afraid.
Host: Do you still have the phone.
Guest: *reaches for purse* Yes here it—
Guest *looks at phone, expression changes to horror*
Guest *begins convulsing and jibbering*
Host: (well this woman is nuts)
Host: Next time on Miracle Witness, one man says he saw the Virgin Mary in his leftovers, has new diet to share with the world!
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Do we need to distribute token NOW or we can wait till reaction phase?
You can wait till reaction.
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I really don't get why people don't think an airbase is an airbase. Basically all of its facilities are about supporting aircraft, making new aircraft because we're soon hitting the point where we'll be making all the craft ourself if this was an actual xcom game, repairing aircraft, rearming aircraft, and so on. Hell, it even says so in the description. What part of 'its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities' is unclear to people?
Really, I based my base design off the design of my larger airbases in my actual XCOM games. If it was airplane focused in the actual game, why wouldn't it be airship focused in the armsrace?
An airbase has advantages. I am not convinced it will be as defensible, but it will be cheap VP.
It should be undetectible. Routine airbase traffic will be a cover for our own. There may be political benefits to getting in close with the South American military.
It is aggressive expansion, and I like that.
It's neither aggressive or undetectable. There's no way some south american airbase is going to be flying our super-advanced best in the world planes anytime normally, even before we start upgrading to flying saucers of our own, which we will eventually. And people watch airports already. Hell, even normal planespotter type folk might figure out something is screwy about that base just from going 'huh, I do not know what that plane was' even if people don't start wondering why those combat damaged planes are landing there. We don't need to attract the crazy people that Area 51 does. As for aggressive... how is sticking a few of our planes on a mundane airbase with a basic bare bones workshop to do the needed supporting and supplying aggressive in comparison to an actual proper xcom airbase again? That just sounds suicidal to me.
The political benefits part... that's a maybe if we roll well enough, sure, but how useful are mundane fighter planes going to be when our shiny fancy ones are having so much trouble? Increasing inter-Agency teams would be useful, yah, but I highly doubt we'd get that from liaising with someone's air force.
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What part of 'its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities' is unclear to people?
That part that includes a lot of stuff that any other X-COM base will have, too. Lab, barracks, workshops...
Really, I based my base design off the design of my larger airbases in my actual XCOM games. If it was airplane focused in the actual game, why wouldn't it be airship focused in the armsrace?
So you admit that it just another regular X-com base with more attention to Airforce than usual? Just more hangars, less labs. It is a regular base with a different set of priorities.
as for aggressive... how is sticking a few of our planes on a mundane airbase with a basic bare bones workshop to do the needed supporting and supplying aggressive in comparison to an actual proper xcom airbase again?
What? Are your implying that your version of the base may produce another magnitude of results just because it worded differently? Are you serious? I deny to believe that game can be so awfully balanced
It is more aggressive because it is specialized (not focused) on fighters (not even airforce, it has no need in Skyrangers) and getting allies in Earth air-forces unlike the base that focuses on getting more of everything (with more of aircrafts) for a long game. You won't get more stuff simply because your base is bigger in description. It will be balanced by either difficulty levels of the roll or downgrading expected result by the GM.
Speaking about difficulty, I expect my design to work on 4+ roll. Can you say the same about yours?
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I see the value of both sides. I am just playing the middle.
My wishes are simple:
•Focus on harboring our aircraft
•Specifically state is to be presented as SA Goodwill/dedication gesture
•Cannot be revealed as XCOM base with a free sensor sweep by enemy.
Aggressive, is making a lightly defended base with high VP potential.
Defensive, is building a base from scratch, then sprinkling VP on top of that endeavor.
I was initially defensive minded, but we simply need to take risks to turn the tide. Lest we have a shiney new base in a continent we are locked out of.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Design
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (4): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Blood Librarian
X-Com base South (3): strongpoint, Cnidaros, roseheart
Resource Point
EP (2): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian
UP (1): roseheart
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Blood/Chief, we have had issues with not enough troops, not lack of firepower.
The railguns costs 1 point, that is incredible. Consider how effective it is. Also, we spent a design and a revision on it.
Also consider a EP WILL NOT help us this turn. But being able to swarm or spread out most definitely will.
Notes :
* Performance of the Raven was subpar to expectations, perhaps due to suprise of the new alien fighter
* The railgun works very well against the aliens, especially at long range. With modest air support, luck, or more units, we could won here.
Tangental thought: couldn't we just stick a homing device to a retreating drone? Maybe a research point if we capture one.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Weren't you the one who very loudly complained about using shortsighted strategy, roseheart? The vote for EP is for more than just this turn. Voting for UP is shortsighted. Having three EP severely restricts our options. Again, if we developed armor, then we wouldn't be able to field both armor and railguns.
Near best case scenario, armor costs 1 EP. Railguns cost 1 EP as well. If we have four units, we wouldn't even be able to equip them all with railguns, let alone armor. Then we'd have to field four Skyrangers just to fly them.
Then there's also the point where we weren't restricted by our lack of UP at all last turn. We were restricted because we could only afford to send one Skyranger along with our three ravens.
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First, let me get this off my chest(as I already wrote it):
Something else: we have no mission types but response. Litterally, the enemy plans something, and we stop it, if we succeed. We are focused on filtering out failure, but not in seizing success. We need our own missions, panic reducing or intel gathering.
Shortsighted strategy is indeed an oxymoron. Tactics and Strategy literally are two parts of the same coin, don't let someone tell you different. They are just big and small. The strategy of a battle is the tactics of a war.
Then there's also the point where we weren't restricted by our lack of UP at all last turn. We were restricted because we could only afford to send one Skyranger along with our three ravens.
No, we chose poorly is all. Down and Capture allows us to wait to send Skyrangers. And as stated by GM more troops would have won.
The battle has grown beyond 3 units. Until we revise Combined Arms to allow(excuse me why stop myself from laughing..........ok) our ravens to wait for the UFOs to land first, they are pretty much grounded.
That frees up a lot of SkyRangers.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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You seem to be missing my point, roseheart.
Yes, we were outnumbered last turn. That was a problem.
But it was not a problem caused by our UP. If we used all of our UP, we would have won the ground battle easily. We would have outnumbered them. UP is by far not the problem here. We don't need more UP because the supposed problem you want to solve with it is nonexistent.
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No I am totally all for it.
But we should buy bigger pants only when our current ones are too tight. Which they are not.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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What part of 'its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities' is unclear to people?
That part that includes a lot of stuff that any other X-COM base will have, too. Lab, barracks, workshops...
Really, I based my base design off the design of my larger airbases in my actual XCOM games. If it was airplane focused in the actual game, why wouldn't it be airship focused in the armsrace?
So you admit that it just another regular X-com base with more attention to Airforce than usual? Just more hangars, less labs. It is a regular base with a different set of priorities.
...Look, at this point I have to ask you this. Are you actually reading what I write? How the hell do you manage to translate 'its like my normal airbases' mean 'its like a general xcom base'? Actually, have you, like, even played OldCom? Ever? Base specialization is a thing, you don't just build each base to do everything even if they share some components. There's a damn big difference between an airbase, which can have like five hangers, a generalist base which usually tops out at three, and production base which probably still has at least one because you need an empty hanger to build aircraft. But its still gonna have at least one barracks, because five hangers worth of stuff is a lot of expensive shit to loose automatically because you didn't have any garrison to defend it when a battleship comes knocking, they're gonna have storage facilities because you need to have someplace to, idduno, actually have ammo for your craft, they're probably going to have a workshop to make more ammo (granted, most of my play is from the final mod pack for open xcom these days, where ammo is more of a concern then normal because there's more mid level aircraft weapons that need you to build ammo, but even in the base game fusion balls need building when you use them up, and given we seem to be going railguns instead of lasers we're probably going to need to make ammo instead of just recharging a battery), they're going to need radar buildings, and so on. I also don't see how a basic 'look at what we scavenged and catalog it' facility is somehow making the outpost a research base when we aren't limited to a games 6x6 base grid any more.
If you want to argue against my designs, could you at least bother to actually argue against what they have and are described as?
as for aggressive... how is sticking a few of our planes on a mundane airbase with a basic bare bones workshop to do the needed supporting and supplying aggressive in comparison to an actual proper xcom airbase again?
What? Are your implying that your version of the base may produce another magnitude of results just because it worded differently? Are you serious? I deny to believe that game can be so awfully balance
It is more aggressive because it is specialized (not focused) on fighters (not even airforce, it has no need in Skyrangers) and getting allies in Earth air-forces unlike the base that focuses on getting more of everything (with more of aircrafts) for a long game. You won't get more stuff simply because your base is bigger in description. It will be balanced by either difficulty levels of the roll or downgrading expected result by the GM.
Bigger bases are better. It's just a fact of XCOM, because more stuff almost always equals better in basically any game. I'm not sure where you got 'a magnitude' from, and would prefer debating without hyperbole, but A, I'm still not convinced that having allied native fighters would be worth anything besides firesoaks, which we were already told was the kind of thing that would make people not want to give us reinforcements, and B, I still fail to see how adding a few minimally supported fighters to someone else's airbase is supposed to be more aggressive then a properly supported air outpost. I'm not even convinced that 'go slap a raven and a basic workshop into someone else's military base while trying to convince them to let us use their fighter planes in combat' will actually be easier then making our own proper outpost, given the politics of the issue, the secrecy issues both in adding our stuff to a national airbase without revealing ourselves, the need to brief national pilots about this so they'll actually be useful, the need to keep the public from noticing our planes in a public national airbase, and that's before we get to the stuff you had about adding pilots school/training facility to someone else's air base which wouldn't be a minor thing in and of itself. If we want a pilot training academy we really should spend a proper action on it as the new thing it is, instead of trying to fit it into something else.
Speaking about difficulty, I expect my design to work on 4+ roll. Can you say the same about yours?
No, but then, I don't expect your base to work on a 4+ roll either, so...
Design
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (4): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Blood Librarian
X-Com base South (3): strongpoint, Cnidaros, roseheart
Resource Point
EP (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, Happerry
UP (2): roseheart, Blood_Librarian
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To follow on your analogy, roseheart, our pants are too tight. Any more stretching - which will happen very soon and is necessary - and they'll just no longer fit at all. Then we'll be caught without pants as we go to buy new ones. Or we could buy new pants now - even though our current ones still technically fit for today - and not have any of those problems.
We don't need UP now or in the near future.
We do need VP, but we're already devoting an entire design to that this turn.
We need EP. It may not be immediately useful this very turn, but it'll be extremely useful every other turn.
I don't get why you're being so willfully shortsighted all of a sudden.
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There is no situation in which 4EP can be used next turn.
There may be uses for 4UP. Sending two teams of 2 to two locations is very likely going to sound swell.
However even with the air focused base, I suppose extra VP wouldn't hurt.
You want to build up. But I believe to win we must build out. That is a big planet, lot of places to be, and things to do.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Let me repeat what I said:
I don't get why you're being so willfully shortsighted all of a sudden.
We're not talking about next turn.
More UP may help us next turn but won't have a notable impact beyond that.
More VP would help, but again - we're already dedicating a design (two total and the VP token we used on the Skyranger) on it.
More EP won't help us next turn, but it will help us immensely beyond that.
Why are you so fundamentally unable to see the impacts of these things after just next turn? Right now, designing new equipment is next to useless because it'll have to replace railguns. If we ever design armor, then we won't be able to give our soldiers armor and railguns. It'll have to be armor or railguns.
If numbers won the battle, then XCOM - the elite small task force - wouldn't be necessary instead of the combined militaries of the world.
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More EP points will definitely help in the future, when we want to do things like give infantry railguns AND a stun weapon AND armor AND stuff like 'hull breaching explosives' to bypass those energy airlocks we couldn't pass last time AND stuff like 'Anti-Sectopod Heavy Weapons like Rocket Launchers or the railgun version of a Heavy Laser or something'. Plus other stuff depending on what we make. Mind Probes will probably be added to that list eventually too...
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Mr. Waffles,
Who offered a plan to revise the railgun(which, I laid out in detail would have those exact problems)?
me
Who has always been the one to bring up the subject of winning?
me
Who is the one that compromises the most, changes their vote, is first to admit they are wrong?
me
This is simply not one of those times. I trust you want to win(I earnestly wonder what some players motivation is, countering my vote seconds after with no explanation).
Designing armor is not our priority.
You are planning far out enough it will have opportunity cost. I will meet you at VP if you want but however the votes are cast, unless our equipment grows legs, we are hurting ourselves.
Don't worry, I will come to the rescue tomorrow.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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I really do not care about what you've done in the past. I care about trying to get you to remedy a clear mistake.
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1. Who offered a plan to revise the railgun(which, I laid out in detail would have those exact problems)?
me
2. Who has always been the one to bring up the subject of winning?
me
3. Who is the one that compromises the most, changes their vote, is first to admit they are wrong?
me
4. Designing armor is not our priority.
5. Don't worry, I will come to the rescue tomorrow.
1. The railgun sincerely would not have had such problems had it rolled higher. That's just a fact of Arms Races. Indeed, it rolled a 3, which is about as bad as you can get.
2. Because that TOTALLY is not at all what we're all trying to do, no sirree, you're the ONLY one capable of seeing that [/sarcasm]
Seriously though, deflate your ego and face the facts. You are WRONG about what to spend this credit on. We NEED more equipment if we want our guys to have any sort of survivability, additional weaponry, etc.
3. I'd have to look to know whether this is true or just you claiming that your rapid posting and even more rapid vote switching is something good, but being indecisive with voting may not be such a good thing.
4. It darn well better be---plasma is relatively easy to make less effective, you just need heat resistance.
5. ::)
Seriously?
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4. It darn well better be---plasma is relatively easy to make less effective, you just need heat resistance.
Given they seem to be going for ECM, we really really should make a railgun conversion for the Interceptor first, but Armor is definitely something to look hard at next design phase.
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Hopefully, fitting an upsized railgun to a fighter plane is revision material.
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I still think yall need a big upgrade to air combat.
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I didn't really expect so many pages of arguing over just one design, tbh. To add n my two cent's worth, I voted for strongpoint's design over Happery's because the latter has a laboratory, which I don't think is necessary as we can just transport our salvage back to Greece. Also strongpoint's design seems like it would be cheaper and simpler in terms of complexity, and thus easier to roll for.
As for the UP or EP debate, why not go for VP? Then we could deploy more Ravens with the ground combat package, in order to make use of that Combined Arms mission type we haven't actually used yet, helping us on the ground.
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Because we need EP.
Again - right now we can give exactly one "cheap" design to each squad and literally nothing else. What if we want armor? What if we want alien capturing equipment? What if we want literally any other equipment for our ground troops other than the default? That all costs EP.
And right now we are using all our EP just giving our squads Railguns. That means if we ever develop other equipment, it's going to actually hurt us to implement it since it'll be at the cost of the railgun or armor or any other equipment we could be fielding.
And regarding the airbase:
Laboratory - Honestly, this is just a piece of fluff. It's, in Happerry's own words, a small room to "look at what we scavenged and catalog it". That's it. Barely more advanced than a high school lab. There's no reason why it would add any notable complexity to the design and no reason why it would have any benefits. It's a fluff QoL feature.
Complexity - Yes, Happerry's base is more complex. But that's a good thing. Renting a couple of hangars from a military base would barely help us. VP is not how much hangar space we have - it's our total capacity to manufacture, maintain, and field any kind of aircraft. We need aircraft workshops. We need actual infrastructure. A couple more hangars and some retrofitted conventional maintenance facilities would barely help us and would still cost a design. Then there's the problem of this base being dead if the aliens so much as consider a UFO being able to shoot at the ground.
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Actually, have you, like, even played OldCom? Ever?
I did, a lot, and, you know... I don't remember design and revision phases there... Your attempt to mimic PC game mechanics instead of going creative is not only boring, it is suboptimal. We are n the same setting, we are playing under very different mechanics. What you write about bases is true for PC-game mechanics, but so what?
Bigger bases are better. It's just a fact of XCOM, because more stuff almost always equals better in basically any game.
Here... Clear PC game mechanics logic...
they're probably going to have a workshop to make more ammo
Or we can do what real armies do... build stuff in one place, transfer to another...
This is why I think why my base needs only maintenance workshop. You need no production facilities at airbase. You can deliver aircrafts and aircraft parts and ammo from your other base. it is STUPID to have your base and factory in the same space. You let your enemy attack both with one strike. You also add scientists to be captured and interrogated...
If your goal is to get more VP, expand our current base. No need for another one.
No, but then, I don't expect your base to work on a 4+ roll either, so...
Well, difference is... Your base, by the description, looks like +8VP, +2EP, +1UP + effects of a new lab + operational bonuses from airbase. Either 10ebbor10 will simplify your base or that will be daaaamn hard to reach.
My is going for operational bonuses of Airbase + maybe single VP from additional infrastructure.
It is also an answer why it is more aggressive. Yours is factory first, everything else next. My is military base
PS.
Why the hell we want to decide how to spend our point now? A lot can change before we reach reaction phase. Like effects from the base
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You're very clearly just ignoring what Happerry's actually saying. All of your criticisms about his base design are now completely unfounded and based on nothing but an imaginary version of Happerry's design that exists only in your head.
I mean, seriously? "+8VP, +2EP, +1UP + effects of a new lab + operational bonuses from airbase"? If you actually read anything Happerry said, then you know that's nowhere near the truth.
Then there's still the many problems with your base. Like how it'll collapse if the aliens so much as look at it funny. Or how it doesn't actually logically help us beyond "another place to launch from", which isn't really a proper justification for VP.
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"+8VP, +2EP, +1UP + effects of a new lab + operational bonuses from airbase"?
Our current base is clearly smaller than what Happerry proposes and it gives 6VP, 3EP, 3UP. It is only logical to assume that larger base should give more VP and still give some EP and UP. Note that we got our current base on guaranteed 8. Now we go for a base of about the same complexity...
Like how it'll collapse if the aliens so much as look at it funny
Yes, we'll do absolutely nothing seeing enemy mission directed at our base... You make it sound like the base will be easily destroyed the very next turn. It is simply not the case.
And even if we go for the worst case and base is destroyed... It is not the end the world. We already benefited from it. We can use gained experience to design another base
Or how it doesn't actually logically help us beyond "another place to launch from", which isn't really a proper justification for VP.
I think my base can have 1\6 of VP potential of the main one. It is not as tiny. It has a maintenance workshop. It has support from non X-COM airforce. It has a hangar. If you want to say that to get a VP or 2 we need to build a base of the same size as our main one...
But you know, main goal of this base is NOT VP. My goal is to improve our interception missions in Americas and counter panic. If I wanted more VP I'd build a factory base somewhere in USA.
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Our current base is clearly smaller than what Happerry proposes
You've progressed to blatant falsehoods. Congratulations.
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its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities, and as such the majority of its space is dedicated towards hangers for XCOM craft, workshops to maintain and build more craft, and a few barracks so the Skyrangers will have soldiers to deliver. As well, there is also a liason's quarters with all the gear and fittings needed to support use of local InterAgency Cooperation Teams when they must be called in. If attacked, the base does have anti-air missile
How all of that is not larger than our main base?
While this not a PC Game, we can assume that our original base looks similar to what you can see in games: several hangars, workshop, lab, warehouse, living quarters. The list above looks larger for me.
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I really do not care about what you've done in the past. I care about trying to get you to remedy a clear mistake.
I logged in and read that as "I really do care about what you've done in the past."
My heart grew three sizes.
Anyway good thing I was wrong, no place for such emotions in this war.
X•COM TRUSTEE
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Really people.
If you can not agree on a what a certain design means, clarify that by writing it in big friendly letters or something. No need to eviscerate one another.
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Really people.
If you can not agree on a what a certain design means, clarify that by writing it in big friendly letters or something. No need to eviscerate one another.
Well, we have 4 vs 3 and I don't think it is gonna change. Is roll incoming?
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I suspect it is too late for new proposals because either update is in the works or votes won't change in time, but I have nothing productive to do on January first, so... I am trying a hybrid offer
X-Com base Brazil
X-Com base South is divided in two parts. The first one is mostly underground and hidden in jungles. It has workshops focused on producing aircrafts and weapon for them, a small lab for testing alien samples before delivering to Europe, barracks for a garrison.
The second part is located within military air base in few hundreds km away. Instead of building underground hangars, X-COM uses existing infrastructure of the base, using natural aerial traffic as a way to hide its presence. In the same way supplies from the jungle delivered in Brazilian military trucks. Airbase's radar and ground to air defense are upgraded with X-COM tech. X-COM unit is stationed there to be ready to defend the ally or be delivered to a mission in a Skyranger
While I think that going both for workshops and airbase is... excessive. This way looks easier to construct than Happery version and it may fool aliens who may destroy less important part of the base. Or force them to do two missions for striking both. As I said earlier keeping factory and Airbase in one space is bad.
Happerry's Argentina Outpost (4): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Blood Librarian
X-Com base South (3): strongpoint, Cnidaros, roseheart
Whatever, it is too late and I doubt that anyone who voted for Happery's version gonna switch.
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But that just seems like Happerry's proposal, but with the hangars aboveground in a standard military base?
I don't really see how that makes anything easier. Sure, we don't have to make underground hangars, but that's not especially hard anyways. But then we'd have to retrofit their airbase to work with our unique craft, manage logistics, and somehow find a way to keep civilians (and by extension, aliens) from seeing our aircraft land and take off from that base. And doing basically two smaller bases together seems like it'd add some degree of complexity.
Sure, if our aircraft looked like regular airplanes and didn't come back battle damaged, we could maybe hide them under existing aerial traffic. But as it stands, our stuff would practically be a glowing neon sign that says "INVADE HERE, ALIENS". Sure, the aliens would have to attack both mini-bases, but attacking either one would cripple the overall functionality; why not hide everything instead of just some parts?
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I hardly believe in "hide" when you can look from the orbit where Ravens come back after a successful mission.
I fail to see how it is complex to have another type of jet on a military base in a separate hangar(s) with most (or all) work done by not base personal but guys who pretend to be X-com personnel. I fail to see how using an existing runaway doesn't make it easier. I fail to see how it is equally hard to upgrade air-defense and build one from scratch.
As for crippling, completely fixable by a revision or even new design benefiting from surviving part (also I like the spirit assuming that we auto-lose any attack on our base)
I could say more but there are too many repeating arguments
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Not exactly a battle report but...
.....
I was told that I'll be transferred to some top-secret international unit. Darn. I hoped to be assigned to the new nuclear carrier.
.....
I arrived to the place. They say they are... special unit created for fighting aliens. They looked way too serious to assume that this is some kind of a joke
....
I am going for a test flight tomorrow. I will be the first to fly some new prototype of an "aircraft unlike no others". I don't believe they have anything better than American Airforce
....
I was wrong. I was so wrong. This bird... Raven. It is a masterpiece. I couldn't even imagine an aircraft like this.
.....
So... It starts....
......
I returned from my first mission. That sucker entered our atmosphere above South Africa and didn't even know what killed him. I was so happy to return to the base with a success only to learn that Mitchell didn't come back. He was evaporated by a plasma shot. Furthermore I was told that land mission in Nigeria was a failure. Darn!
....
Another one! Now in Japan. I lead a wing of two.
....
My wingman did a great job and shot down their fighter with one well placed shot. I scored my second victory by ending the misery of a bandit that tried to take off fleeing from our not soft guys.
....
We are doing some serious training for ground support. I am tired to hear "Be careful. We need examples of enemy tech" Tired! Eggheads should know that this is a war. Useless idiots.
.....
I take my words back. They are not useless. That SMART missile is a nice toy. How they develop weapon systems that quickly?
......
Another mission. Those alien cowards now move in groups
......
It was a disaster. That thing... That maneuver... How!? Poor Ivan had no chance. Miguel went second after their landers joined the fight. I managed to eject just after I unloaded all my missiles. I was sure that I'll take out at least one of them... but no.
......
I am ordered to stay in South America. They want to build an airfield here. I fail to understand why waste effort and not use one of many airfields that local airforces use. Hey, maybe we could even get some of their birds to help. I would feel far safer with a dozen or two of good old F-16s covering my ass. But my bosses are obsessed with secrecy.
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You do realize how fucking fast the Raven is right? it's suppose to be the fast human craft in existence and not to mention a Raven appears to have a at least twice the operational range of anything else in existence. and it still sucks against their UFOs any other jet we bring up that isn't purpose built is going to either die before it can do anything or simply be outran by them.
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You do realize how fucking fast the Raven is right? it's suppose to be the fast human craft in existence and not to mention a Raven appears to have a at least twice the operational range of anything else in existence. and it still sucks against their UFOs any other jet we bring up that isn't purpose built is going to either die before it can do anything or simply be outran by them.
What is the cause and purpose of this post?
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Design
Argentina Airbase Outpost
This outpost is designed to extend XCOM's presence away from Europe and allow for faster and better equipped responses to alien attacks in the Americas. Unlike the island base it is not fully underground, instead depending upon heavy jungle cover to keep it from being visible from orbit. However many facilities are extended underground for easier defensibility and more working area. As well they are all connected underground to avoid the need to carve potentially revealing paths between the buildings. While the outpost does have a basic laboratory facility for examination of battlefield gleanings, its primary function is to serve as a amplifier to XCOM's air wing capabilities, and as such the majority of its space is dedicated towards hangers for XCOM craft, workshops to maintain and build more craft, and a few barracks so the Skyrangers will have soldiers to deliver. If attacked, the base does have anti-air missile batteries as well as a defensive layout that will turn any attempt by the aliens to seize the base into a very nasty tunnel fight that will hopefully give the rest of XCOM time to send help, but the Outpost's primary defensive measure is supposed to be stealth.
Difficulty : Very Hard (1 + 1 - 2) =0
Our engineering team has universally agreed than an airbase protecting the South American continent would provide major benefits. However, specific of the proposal exposed deep divides within the engineering teams, which when combined with local issues resulted in a complete deadlock. To make matters, the models that had been build for the various designs caught fire in a so far unexplained case of spontaneous combustion.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
3 EP
1 VP token,
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
RevisionPhase
First Month End : The war intensifies. You receive one VP/UP/EP of choice, to use immediately.
Challenge : Write a (short) excerpt on any of the recent battles from any perspective. (Reward : ??? + 1 unrestricted token)
AABBCCDD
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You do realize how fucking fast the Raven is right? it's suppose to be the fast human craft in existence and not to mention a Raven appears to have a at least twice the operational range of anything else in existence. and it still sucks against their UFOs any other jet we bring up that isn't purpose built is going to either die before it can do anything or simply be outran by them.
What is the cause and purpose of this post?
Last bit of your diary post, a pint of rum, bit of a hangover, and possiblly more rum combined with dealing a guy who thinks fireworks/gunshots all day is a great idea.
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Difficulty : Very Hard
Complexity - Yes, Happerry's base is more complex. But that's a good thing.
Sure, it was really unlucky (even normal design would give us nothing but experience), but that is not an excuse for going very hard when we are behind and can't afford such risks. We needed what for a usable base? 6+. Greed is bad
Now lets do a normal difficulty revision, OK?
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Bad rolls are bad, actually.
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No, I am not results oriented here. Should we get 8, I would still say that very hard was a bad risk and we were saved by a great roll.
Anyway past is the past. We need to save the situation somehow.
Black Raven
Black Raven is a simplified version of Raven. Engineers got a mission to make Raven cost two times less even if some performance sacrifices are required. It is mostly done by replacing complex components with simpler. Some parts are made smaller benefiting from new materials gained during XH project.
I expect a lot of flak in a form "revisions don't have to lower performance in some areas. It is a wrong way to do it in arms races" I don't want another round of arguing. I believe that reducing cost of something two times to 1VP is very hard. I believe that two slightly dumbed down ravens with 90% capability are still better than original Raven. If we roll exceptional we may simply get cheaper version with no drawbacks.
Other possible revisions I consider viable; Remote controlled version of Raven, Raven with alien alloyed engine, Avalanche upgrade, stealth upgrade for Skyranger, aerial railgun, arming Skyranger for self defense against aerial targets.
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I think you're blind, strongpoint.
We were specifically warned that a base design would not be an easy thing to do, and here it is---it wasn't an easy thing to do.
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We were specifically warned that a base design would not be an easy thing to do, and here it is---it wasn't an easy thing to do.
And this is why I wanted to go for a simple base without large workshops and small labs. I think it would be hard and... result would be exactly the same but result is irrelevant. I even wrote that I expect it to work on 4+ implying hard.
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Railgun Raven Refit
This Raven refit is focused on only one thing. Replacing some of the missile pylons the raven currently has with two mounts for an anti-craft railgun useful against the UFOs that have been being faced so far as well as adding the needed power supplies and ammo storage spots to actually fire them. While this might decrease the amount of missiles a raven can carry, it allows them to use the mentioned railguns in air to air combat, thusly ignoring whatever jammed our missiles last time.
On another note, isn't that the second 2 we've rolled this game? The dice need some reeducation on probabilities or something.
Also, Strongpoint, I still don't see how you can believe that sticking top secret fancy stuff into a public airbase while still keeping it a secret and trying to use national planes as cannon fodder and setting up a pilot academy wouldn't have been just as difficult. But whatever, we can redo my base later, for now we need a planes upgrade to counter whatever form of ECM the UFOs showed off last turn and may have upgraded.
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Revision
Black Raven (0):
Railgun Raven Refit (2): Happerry, Chiefwaffles
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Railgun Skyranger refit
New version of Skyranger comes with two high caliber railgun turrets (both dorsal, one closer to the nose, another to the tail). Controlled by a state of art computer, allowing targeting of even supersonic targets with remarkable accuracy. Additionally turret can be used in land battles should squad get pushed back to Skyranger or act as fire support when soldiers need to rush from Skyranger directly into battle
They may start hunting Skyrangers. I want them defended. Turrets should be pretty
accurate, unlike forward facing guns. Such turrets can be useful in land battles, too
Revision
Railgun Raven Refit (2): Happerry, Chiefwaffles
Railgun Skyranger Refit (1): Strongpoint
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Turrets are generally unaerodynamic and also heavy, power-intensive, and bulky.
They won't fit on a Skyranger without reducing its necessary qualities of speed, maneuverability, and (limited) carrying capacity. Also, dorsal turrets are going to be too high off the ground, and with too little elevation capabilities, to successfully engage ground targets.
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Turrets are generally unaerodynamic and also heavy, power-intensive, and bulky.
They won't fit on a Skyranger without reducing its necessary qualities of speed, maneuverability, and (limited) carrying capacity.
And I think that reduction will be minor and manageable or I wouldn't offer it.
Also, dorsal turrets are going to be too high off the ground, and with too little elevation capabilities, to successfully engage ground targets.
That depends. Sure, dorsal will never be good enough at point blank, there will be some limitation with firing arc, but being located near the edge of aircraft I fail to see why would they be unable to engage ground targets
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Revision
Black Raven (0):
Railgun Raven Refit (3): Happerry, Chiefwaffles Stabby
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Revision
Railgun Raven Refit (4): Happerry, Chiefwaffles Stabby, roseheart
X•COM TRUSTEE
/\ •V I G I L O• /\\
/\ \C O N F I D O/ /\\ (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.0)
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Revision
Railgun Raven Refit (5): Happerry, Chiefwaffles Stabby, roseheart, Cnidaros
Although, for the record, I don't believe dogfighting with an opponent who can pull off physics-defying maneuvers propelled by antigravity is going to go well. At all.
Also, Chiefwaffles, I think you are failing to understand the difficulties of designs. You tend to ask for everything and the moon, insisting that it'll only be a Hard design. This would be a great strategy for winning an Arms Race, if only the GM agreed.
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Oh no, I understand the difficulties just fine.
I don't believe I ever directly speculated on the difficulty of either base design. I certainly never "insist[ed] that it'll only be a Hard design", and I haven't "ask[ed] for everything and the moon." Only one of my designs has gotten through: the XH1 Railgun. And I consider it a large success. The XH1 Railgun was Hard, which was expected, and I consider it (even without the revision) a success even with its bad roll.
(And for the record, I didn't want an airbase; I thought there were many other things we could have and should have done but since everyone else wanted an airbase I decided to support the best one: Happerry's.)
I think you fail to understand two things:
1.) That rolls exist. The results of designs aren't just arbitrarily decided by the GM based on what they think of it. The GM decides the difficulty, and the random roll decides the actual result. We got the worst possible roll we could have received.
2.) That Hard/Very Hard designs are not automatically bad. Sometimes good things come at a cost.
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If I could trade every fail, and if you count battles we've had a few.. for a less ambitious design, or less thinly armed mission,
I'd do it in a roseheart beat.
And for the record, I didn't want an airbase; I thought there were many other things we could have and should have done but since everyone else wanted an airbase I decided to support the best one: Happerry's.
Perhaps, we can do the 2 votes, so we can see what else they want.
I may have been willing to do a mission design, had I known it was desired by others.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Uh, except I am talking about how I voted.
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Hindsight is 20/20.
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Although, for the record, I don't believe dogfighting with an opponent who can pull off physics-defying maneuvers propelled by antigravity is going to go well. At all.
My thought here. I'd really would prefer just to field more ravens with more missiles trying to overcome problems of enemy maneuverability and ECM with more missiles launched. Skyranger turret is more or less "wild" proposal out of boredom because bandwagon was easy to spot. Cheaper Ravens is what I would do if it was a single player game. It is the most straightforward and the less risky way to try to get some parity in the air.
1.) That rolls exist. The results of designs aren't just arbitrarily decided by the GM based on what they think of it. The GM decides the difficulty, and the random roll decides the actual result. We got the worst possible roll we could have received.
Result oriented thinking. In games with random element decisions are either good or bad no matter what the end result of the action is. "We got the worst possible roll" doesn't even worth mentioning.
2.) That Hard/Very Hard designs are not automatically bad. Sometimes good things come at a cost.
In the current system very hard designs need a very good reason to be tried at all. There are claims that my version of the base very hard, too. Well. I see no point in arguing on that but I wouldn't even think about proposing very hard base. Risk of getting nothing is just too high. Happery did everything to make his base as hard as possible by adding stuff the base could work without including labs, garrison, large manufacturing complex. It was an unjustified risk. After all, everything of that could be added later with revision.
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I prefer a failed Very Hard design to a still-failed Hard (at best) design that would still have numerous flaws even with an 8.
Like how easy it would be for the aliens to find it. How it would have been impossible to defend. How it would have contributed little because - surprise - making and fielding top-secret cutting-edge experimental aircraft is harder than sourcing some extra hangars and maintenance technicians.
Happery did everything to make his base as hard as possible by adding stuff the base could work without including labs, garrison, large manufacturing complex. It was an unjustified risk. After all, everything of that could be added later with revision.
I sure am glad we know what the difficulty of your base design would have been and how the differences between Happerry's design and your's affected the diffi--
Wait, we don't know that?
...then why are you talking as if you know that?
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Happery did everything to make his base as hard as possible by adding stuff the base could work without including labs, garrison, large manufacturing complex. It was an unjustified risk. After all, everything of that could be added later with revision.
I sure am glad we know what the difficulty of your base design would have been and how the differences between Happerry's design and your's affected the diffi--
Wait, we don't know that?
...then why are you talking as if you know that?
Excuse me Mr. South American council member, could we park some ravens at one of your airbases?
VERY HARD DIFFICULTY
Admittedly I proposed a underground base as well, twice actually. But when I said to make it segmented to allow construction over time, or to start with a skeleton crew it just didn't seem necessary.
Hindsight is 20/20, but I seem to be building a collection of cases where other's hindsight was my recommendation in the first place.
We should play this game, as it has been shown.
We should play this game, like we have the dice from hell.
"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
—Sun Tzu
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Wouldn't a roll to improve the missile lock on be fairly straight forward? all you need to do is get the missiles to actually hit.
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Like how easy it would be for the aliens to find it. How it would have been impossible to defend. How it would have contributed little because - surprise - making and fielding top-secret cutting-edge experimental aircraft is harder than sourcing some extra hangars and maintenance technicians.
No, sorry, I am not answering this with a wall of text again. I wrote why this exaggerated\wrong during the actual discussion many times.
Also, what you fail to understand: It is normal for a designs to have some flaws. Every freaking time when I offer anything with intended flaws they are a)exaggerated naming the design unusable, b)rejected immediately because designs must be perfect, or c)plain ignored
Flaws by design give GM what to base design on. Flaws by design are there to reduce difficulty and\or give benefits instead.
Design A: This fighter is very fast IS NOT better than design B: This fighter is very fast but has limited payload.
Excuse me Mr. South American council member, could we park some ravens at one of your airbases?
VERY HARD DIFFICULTY
To be fair there are also: We'll try to improve your deference for free (with technologies we already have) and setup pilot academy (I mean sometimes make our pilot to train together). Oh, and we'll dig a hole under one one of your hangars to place some of our technicians away from sight. I think it makes it Ludicrous
Sure, we can't know what difficulty was unless 10ebbor10 tells us (and he won't because it is a direct hint we can use in the future) but we can assume.
BTW, yes. Roseheart's base that started small was better than Happery's. Maybe it was the best of the three.
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So you guys have the best ground combat with your railguns that allowed a single squad to mow down a lot of enemies and only lost due to being completely swamped.
Why not use the dedicated air fighters to cover for a several transports to drop a bunch of squads to win the ground battle? It seems as though you guys need to either invest inventions into better aerial combat, or just use what you actually have well.
Ground combat WILL be an Xcom win every time that you actually have some sort of numbers. Imagine what two squads with railguns could have accomplished!
And you don't even NEED a new design to win ground since the advantage is quite significant atm I think, anyway.
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Wouldn't a roll to improve the missile lock on be fairly straight forward? all you need to do is get the missiles to actually hit.
I like the idea of railguns on ravens. The damage buff might help. But Russ may be on to something. Our missiles are already penetrating their armor like clay pigeons. They just outmanouver them is all.
Perhaps the railgun will be accurate, they just need to fire a trigger is all. But what human can hit a physics dafying object.
It sure is nice we all voted so quickly. I am sure the Ethereals will like that.
But let's consider the following, they can wait, a little longer...
Missile Accuracy Upgrade
The avalanche missiles targeting software is upgraded. Flight patterns and tactics of UFOs are analyzed and simulated as advanced AI composes a new optimal update. The missile targeting is also made to be more compatible with ground targets.
Revision
Railgun Raven Refit (4): Happerry, Chiefwaffles Stabby, Cnidaros
Missile Accuracy Upgrade (1): roseheart
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Eh. Adding railguns to our ravens is a straight up upgrade that also preemptively prepares us in case they introduce better armor to their UFOs or just bigger hulls. It gives us a bit more experience with railguns.
Plus there's the problem where this is easily undoable. The aliens spend another revision on "Better ECM", they win for a turn, then we spend a revision on "Better Tracking" again and don't gain an advantage other than temporarily undoing their revision. This can repeat as long as either side allows.
Or we could give our Ravens an alternative form of firing that can't very easily be undone with a revision which also gives us other advantages that can't be undone with an Easy alien revision.
Excuse me Mr. South American council member, could we park some ravens at one of your airbases?
VERY HARD DIFFICULTY
That's just silly. You can do that with anything. I can do it easily with Happerry's thing too.
Excuse me workers, could you dig a couple holes in the ground so we can park some ravens there?
It is normal for a designs to have some flaws.
...sure, but not anywhere to the degree of your frankly ridiculous design.
Watch, here's a new design:
"The XH-3 Railgun is too big to be carried, so we've attached a horse and carriage to it to move it around. In order to allow for maximum destruction, we've increased projectile size. But in order to keep difficulty down (of course the most important part of any design) we've decided to not upscale the self-loading mechanism and instead have its crew breech-load the weapon. In order to keep costs and difficulty down, the wagon utilizes wooden wheels. Sure, they may break down, but it's nothing the gunners can't handle.
We've made some sacrifices, yes, but it's all in the name of an easier design. The most important thing we should strive for."
One may say "but Chief, that's a stupid design!"
I'll say "It is normal for a designs to have some flaws."
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I do not accept at face value, they are using ecm. Our pilots were spooked. The fired missile was a near miss because it didn't get a lock.
If we were going to go railgun it should at least be interchangable, for the reasons you pointed out.
But they are going to get the drop on us again, that had nothing to do with us getting spooked. Better to have a missile that hits, than a rifle with targets too close to hit.
But on the other hand, make me a prophet.
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Excuse me workers, could you dig a couple holes in the ground so we can park some ravens there?
And if it was just that it would be just hard and I wouldn't mind it much. But it is - also: while you are here build large workshops, lab, all infrastructure needed for housing infantry, ground to air missiles...
but not anywhere to the degree of your frankly ridiculous design.
Why stop here? Just call me an idiot who proposes only stupid things.
One may say "but Chief, that's a stupid design!"
I'll say "It is normal for a designs to have some flaws."
There are miles of difference between design with disadvantages and purposely bad, absurd design that gives GM no room to maneuver. And you know that.
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And if it was just that it would be just hard and I wouldn't mind it much. But it is - also: while you are here build large workshops, lab, all infrastructure needed for housing infantry, ground to air missiles...
That's the point. I purposely and deceptively oversimplified Happerry's design in that summary, like roseheart did with yours.
This kind of thing is one of my number one pet peeves when arguing with people. It's so easy to oversimplify or overcomplicate things which are neither overly simple nor overly complicated. You can describe "make dinner" in a ton of ways.
Say you wanted to describe making a grilled cheese sandwich.
Oversimplification Way:
Just grill some bread and cheese, then eat!
Overcomplication Way:
First you have to think of one of the many types of grilled cheese sandwiches to consume. Once you're done with this endeavor, you have to search your household for the proper ingredients. Carefully take the cheese out of its storage without dropping it on the floor, then you have to retrieve several pieces of bread without destroying the loaf. Once this is done, you have to lay the bread, then you have to put on the cheese, then you have to put on more bread. You have to cook this with the right utensils for an exact amount of time, or else your grilled cheese will be ruined. Once this is done, ...
In my eyes, it brings absolutely nothing of value to the conversation and pollutes it with what's practically deceit.
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Oversimplification Way:
Just grill some bread and cheese, then eat!
This is accurate simplification. It is useful because it describes the core idea of the action.
What you did is Just grill some bread creating a false impression about the nature of expected action.
Core of my action is indeed park some ravens at one of your airbases, yes it is more accurate with more details, but saying that isn't false.
Simplified Happery's version isn't could you dig a couple holes in the ground so we can park some ravens there.
It is could you dig a couple holes in the ground so we can park some ravens there and build workshops and other infrastructure
Why? Because workshops and other infrastructure aren't parts of "parking ravens"
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Idea for the next design:
X-Com base South
On the first glance this base is nothing but a mundane air base of Argentinian air force located near the border with Brazil. But it is different. One of its hangars hides X-Com aircrafts. It's radars are modified to detect UFOs. Its ground to air missiles are upgraded using technologies similar to ones used in Avalanche missiles. Undegroud it has a small production facility specialized on producing aircrafts parts
Thoughts? They are focusing on Brazil and I don't like it at all. Such base may give us more VP for fighters and detection power.
There's much more to that than the "core of [the] action is indeed park some ravens at one of your airbases."
An """accurate""" simplification would be "convince a council member to let us park ravens at their base, then modify their radars and upgrade their g2a missiles then build wokrhops and other infrastructure underground."
Roseheart left out everything after "park ravens", I left out everything after "park ravens".
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Anyway, that's enough bickering on that subject.
Now, as compensation for your sad rolls on the subject, I'll provide little bit of extra information on how I evaluated the base designs. With base, much more so than with any other design, the (intended) mechanical effects tend to decide the difficulty. Fluff takes a secondary importance. It still matters a bit, but you're not ever going to be talking yourselves into a very cheap base. [You can however, talk yourself into a very expensive base, so take care of fluff]
So, we then have the 2 proposals. 1 standard XCOM base, and 1 minimalist design. You know the standard base was a very hard roll. This is because it combined a certain of VP increase with actual defensibility. The minimalist design is more difficult for me to evaluate. On one hand, the target difficulty for a base design is very hard, it's not supposed to be any easier. On the other hand, the concept behind the base is to be less expensive. Then again, it still includes the same effects of defensibility and VP increase, though in lesser amounts. So, it may or may not have ended up as very hard too. If, however, I went with making it hard, it would have been weakened by that decision.
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Hm, my assumptions were close. Knowing that I would probably go for an even more barebone design with intention of immediate revision to actually get that hard, or, more likely, chose different kind of design.
________
I am curious if we'll be able to recover. In other arms games such skipped designs are not bad deal, enemy will have their own bad turns sooner or later, but here with a snowball effect of tokens... It is not easy to catch up. We are in a hard mode now. They are 3 to 1 in won missions (assuming there are no ones that we failed to detect...)
Railgun ravens are good for ground attack and for future when\if they'll field large things. I am not sure that short term effect will be worthwhile, especially if they'll repeat the strategy of grouping UFOs together and do an upgrade or two for their fighter.
What kind of revision can we do to increase the chance that Skyranger can reach the enemy on the ground? Speed? Stealth?
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How does XCom win? Currently you've only described the alien's wincon.
Yeah, that bit of the intro is missing.
Either side can through complete destruction of the other side. Either destroying all XCOM bases and attempts to reestabilish, or Alien bases. In addition, the Aliens can try to win by forcing the XCOM project to be disbanded through panicking enough states. XCOM's counter is to estabilish a stable war coalition. They need to do this through (somehow) bring Panic deep into the negatives.
For XCOM, the destruction option is more feasible than the PANIC meter option. After the aliens are not exactly awash in bases. For the Ethereals, making the world panic is easier than stamping out XCOM again and again.
We have lost 1 'HP' to our panic meter. As long as we continue to be able to respond to multiple threats, as well as field missions to take down their bases, we will win.
checklist
-keep panic down
-destroy enemy bases
That's it. We have no other objectives, no other priorities, before these ones.
If we reflect this mentality in our voting, we will surely be victorious.
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Revision
Railgun Raven Refit (4): Happerry, Chiefwaffles Stabby
Missile Accuracy Upgrade (2): roseheart, Cnidaros
Shifting my vote over. While I do like the idea of putting railguns on a Raven I don't think it's going to be effective at all next turn, which is what we need. Just hope that they haven't upgraded their UFOs.
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Revision
Railgun Raven Refit (5): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Blood_librarian
Missile Accuracy Upgrade (2): roseheart, Cnidaros
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There's some weird addition happening somewhere.
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Just a little story I wrote based on a character I have from a specific video game (Not Xcom) for the competition.
With a thump, A bolt of metal, flung by human engineering unparalleled slammed against a pad of concrete, cracking it sharply.
Ash was raining into the sky, pouring from the ground and then wisping around in the air. Gravity was strained here, bent by an abominations machine, the Aliens Craft. Just as the brave few had rushed forward, so to had the forces of darkness moved to strike.
A scream echoed through the site of a miniature war, cut sharply as a bolt of plasma struck true against one Mankind's best soldiers.
His scream was cut short as the hiss of plasma had finally burnt away his throat and lungs, and he died an instant later.
An aliens beady eyes turned, and the enemies gun was instantly pointed at another, only to be stopped as it’s entire upper body was blown apart, metal shrapnel and alien gore raining down. With a mechanical hiss, and then a preamble whine to an electric roar, a soldiers railgun fired another rod towards them.
Another aliens chest promptly exploded outward.
Two for four.
There were only eight of us now. Johnny, the one with a penchant for causing trouble among the MP’s peeked out of cover. He would always place little contraptions around that would make a ruckus when it was least expected and had been put in the brig multiple times, but he was a good las. He raised his pistol, taking aim and putting down two rounds down the field. One time, he had even done it to the commander on accident, but he had laughed and laughed, and he got away scot free. Johnny screamed as a bolt of plasma had collided with his abdomen, and keeled over as his insides started boiling away with the acrid smell of ozone and cooked shrimp.
Just as an enemy machination was about to pounce on the medic rushing to save him, a bullet from Johnnie's pistol had slammed into its optics, and then into its Elerium core, where it promptly hit the ground like a rock and its casing split apart, its mechanical parts spilling.
With a snap-hiss, a soldier died right next to me, his blood boiling from the plasma bolt that had solidly hit his head.
Four for six.
Just as I was about to raise my railgun, Johnny shot himself with his own gun.
With a roar of gods fist, Another alien was splattered all over a wall.
Bepko "Rumba" Bilbo, the madman with a shotgun had been quiet the entire time, until now. He was sneaking in the woods.
I spotted his Neon red mohawk right before he had fired, and just like that, another alien fell over. He was screaming the entire time, that I never noticed the aliens explosive whizzing past my head, and landing on poor Johnnies corpse.
I never felt the shrapnel slam through my windpipe because it had cut straight through my spinal column to get to my windpipe in the first place, for I was shocked at the fact that each time Rumba had fired his shotgun, another alien or one of thier machines fell over dead.
Bepko, the madman wasn’t finished yet. His shotgun was only half out of munitions, and he had already killed a half dozen alien fiends while I was dying. With each time his shotgun roared, another alien was dead, and by the time his gun had ran out of ammo, he pulled out a knife from his boot, narrowly ducking underneath a bolt of plasma, and he promptly turned around and threw a knife at the sole remaining alien, the one who had fired plasma at him.
The knife whizzed through the air and lodged firmly in the aliens eye socket, but had just narrowly missed its frontal brain.
Bepko stared at the alien, who promptly pulled the trigger on its gun, only for the distinct sound of an empty magazine notice to wail through the tense air.
Bepko pulled out his other Boot Knife.
The Alien pulled the dirty human knife out of its eye socket.
The two promptly had a knife fight to the death, for over an entire hour.
The fight had spanned the entire village, and the lone child's account confirmed this, as the child had only seen Bepo during the later portions of the fight (After our communications and tracking of him had failed), his Neon-Red Mohawk spattered with the blood of the alien, and he was missing one of his arms, cauterized by an alien plasma gun, but he was still knife fighting the alien invader, according to the child and footage from the terminated soldiers camera equipment.
Unfortunately no one knows how the fight had ended, as by the time recovery crews had arrived, the only evidence that Bepko, or the alien had existed was the recordings of Bepkos Camera, Bepkos arm (Which was slashed off, not burnt off, which does not explain how he had survived as long as he did with the absurd amount .), and the charred remains of the rest of his squad.Bepkos current location is unknown, as the GPS tracker along with his communications equipment was destroyed during the fight.
His last transmissions were actually frantic, most of the footage was blurred and unusable due to the speed at which the fight had occurred, but notably, footage of the internals of the Alien UFO had been recorded before the blackout, where the alien had taken out the camera with one of the local areas explosives. (At the time we had thought that Bepko was KIA, but the account of the child had included Bepko after the fight was supposedly ended.)
All we do know is that Bepko is missing, and the alien saucer along with its lone surviving crewman had escaped the site.
Questions are raised if the UFO contains Bepko, or if Bepko is lost/dead in the woods, as well as the question of whether or not the UFO automatically restarted itself and that the survivor is actually dead, or (as some of our more insane engineers proclaim) that Bepko had tortured/persuaded the single occupant of the UFO to bring him back to the mothership, and is currently waging a gorilla war in the vents of the Mothership.
-
Well if who ever is giving themselves 2 vote power switches over to the missile upgrade, it will win.
Seriously though. Railguns have been shown to be effective at range. We have an enemy that can sneak right on top of us.
I just can't put up with this game of I told you so anymore, ebbor has a great game, but as we continue to, as a team make wrong decisions that take extra revisions to correct, supposedly plan for the future by losing the early game and allow our enemy to snowball to the advent horizon of similar chance to win. I had it.
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Your pointing out all are failures caused by bad rolls and saying "I told you so". We'd still be failing just as hard if we had done your
short sighted plans.
-
Good luck.
-
Well if who ever is giving themselves 2 vote power switches over to the missile upgrade, it will win.
No one has given themselves 2 vote power. However, Cnidaros forgot to -1 the vote when he switched from railgun to missile and it didn't get fixed for some reason.
I just can't put up with this game of I told you so anymore, ebbor has a great game, but as we continue to, as a team make wrong decisions that take extra revisions to correct, supposedly plan for the future by losing the early game and allow our enemy to snowball to the advent horizon of similar chance to win. I had it.
Good bye and hopefully the next time you try to join an arms race you'll have more fun.
-
Good bye and hopefully the next time you try to join an arms race you'll have more fun.
Thank you.
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roseheart
You know, I left quite a few suggestion games due to various reasons. Here is a hint - you can do this by not posting anymore. Dramatic announcements aren't necessary.
Also, I find it hilarious that you consider railguns to be a long range weapon and missiles to be a short range weapon. It is other way around. Missiles are made to engage targets beyond visible range. Railguns are meant to be used in dogfights, This is why I don't want aerial railguns, we are less maneuverable. On other hand railguns will be great for ground attack or dealing with battleships later.
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Stop arguing ffs its inefficient
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Railgun Raven Refit
This Raven refit is focused on only one thing. Replacing some of the missile pylons the raven currently has with two mounts for an anti-craft railgun useful against the UFOs that have been being faced so far as well as adding the needed power supplies and ammo storage spots to actually fire them. While this might decrease the amount of missiles a raven can carry, it allows them to use the mentioned railguns in air to air combat, thusly ignoring whatever jammed our missiles last time.
Easy : 4 + 3 + 1 = 8
The Phoenix gunpod is a simple, streamlined gunpod designed to be fitted to the Raven fighter with minimal conversions. Incorporating off the shelf hardware as well as alien technology, it uses a small alien power core in combination with conventional super capacitors to power an upscaled variant of our infantry railgun. The resulting weapon platform has a relatively slow firing velocity, but a powerful punch. At close ranges, the unguided projectiles should be able to shred enemy armor with ease. At longer ranges, the fact that the weapon is unguided restricts accuracy.
As interesting benefit of making the gunpod independent of the Raven's own systems, it can be integrated into our other vehicles as well.
Incoming UFO's
Craft(s): 1 Alien Lander, 2*Alien Fighter
Destination: Australia
Location : Landing
Australian air force radars have picked up hints of a significant alien flotilla heading towards australia. Their destination appears to be a small to mid sized community in the australian outback.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
3 EP
1 VP token,
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Defense Phase
First Month End : The war intensifies. You receive one VP/UP/EP of choice, to use immediately.
Challenge : Write a (short) excerpt on any of the recent battles from any perspective. (Reward : ??? + 1 unrestricted token)
AABBCCDD
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Can the Phoenix be used in ground support missions?
-
Ohh boy, time to try out railguns on the interceptors
-
Can the Phoenix be used in ground support missions?
It's of limited use, but it can be used.
It has a unique combination of causing lots of collateral and yet being easy to miss with.
-
Operating Cleansing the Path
2 Ravens
- equipped with Phoenix Railgun pod
3 Sky Rangers
-1 equipped with Phoenix railgun pod (does the 3 for 1 cost mean that 3 aircraft are equipped with pods or 1 ship gets 3 pods?)
3 NOTSOFTOR Agents, Two of which are equipped with the XH-2 in addition to standard load outs.
One Fighter is to be Intercepted, while the other two UFOs are to be Down and Captured, One at a time. This means that first the Fighter craft is stormed while the other is in close watch by air support, and then once the fighter craft is subdued, the Landing craft is dealt with. The third fighter that was intercepted is to be bombed if any signs that it will actually turn back on.
Cleansing the Path (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7659121#msg7659121) (1): Blood_Librarian
-
3 aircraft with pods
-
Operation Crossroad
Combined Arms
Gain 1EP
2 Ravens with Phoenix gunpods (2/3 of EP)
3 Skyrangers with Phoenix gunpod each (1 EP)
3 NOTSOFTER units, two of those armed with XH-2 rifles (2EP),
This plan tries to overwhelm them on land. We may very well lose all fighters and one skyranger before landing and still win the fight
Operation Blackwater
Combined Arms
Gain 1VP
3 Ravens with 1 Phoenix gunpod each (1 EP)
2 Skyrangers
2 NOTSOFTER units, each armed XH-2 rifles (2EP)
VP are less useful long term on its own, but such force composition looks really strong for this one battle and we may get a useful token.
I prefer the second one. With Gun Pod we can go tanks and VP will be useful.
-
Let’s not tie the resource point to operation plans.
I took the votebox from before we rolled the design and removed roseheart and fixed BL’s accidentally duplicated vote. I’m not voting for a plan yet as I’m faaar too tired to do that right now.
Resource Point
EP (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, Happerry
UP (0):
VP (0):
-
Let’s not tie the resource point to operation plans.
Lets tie them because they directly influence plans. You can do different things with +1UP, 1VP or +1EP.
-
My personal take is that Operation Blackwater is probably going to be the best choice. We almost won on land last time with basically no damage done to their UFOs, and this time they seem to have less troops (last time they had one fighter and multiple lander UFOs, this time they have 1 lander and more then one fighter) so they'll have less troops and with the railguns we should have decent odds of doing at least some damage in the air even if we don't win the air battle. And now we'll have twice the troops we had last time ourselves just as they have less troops plus the air support.
On the other hand, if we really really want to make sure we win on the ground, Operation Crossroad is probably the way to go with its third Skyranger.
Also, we should really try to make a mission type that is basically 'wait for most of them to land, and then gang up on their air cover without being distracted by the landed stuff so we can take the fighters on without having to worry about the other UFOs, and can then nail the other ones when they take off if they try to run' sometime.
-
Slightly updated
.....
I was told that I'll be transferred to some top-secret international unit. Darn. I hoped to be assigned to the new nuclear carrier.
.....
I arrived to the place. They say they are... special unit created for fighting aliens. They looked way too serious to assume that this is some kind of a joke
....
I am going for a test flight tomorrow. I will be the first to fly some new prototype of an "aircraft unlike no others". I don't believe they have anything better than American Airforce
....
I was wrong. I was so wrong. This bird... Raven. It is a masterpiece. I couldn't even imagine an aircraft like this.
.....
So... It starts....
......
I returned from my first mission. That sucker entered our atmosphere above South Africa and didn't even know what killed him. I was so happy to return to the base with a success only to learn that Mitchell didn't come back. He was evaporated by a plasma shot. Furthermore I was told that land mission in Nigeria was a failure. Darn!
....
Another one! Now in Japan. I lead a wing of two.
....
My wingman did a great job and shot down their fighter with one well placed shot. I scored my second victory by ending the misery of a bandit that tried to take off fleeing from our not soft guys.
....
We are doing some serious training for ground support. I am tired to hear "Be careful. We need examples of enemy tech" Tired! Eggheads should know that this is a war. Useless idiots.
.....
I take my words back. They are not useless. That SMART missile is a nice toy. How they develop weapon systems that quickly?
......
Another mission. Those alien cowards now move in groups
......
It was a disaster. That thing... That maneuver... How!? Poor Ivan had no chance. Miguel went second after their landers joined the fight. I managed to eject just after I unloaded all my missiles. I was sure that I'll take out at least one of them... but no.
......
I am ordered to stay in South America. They want to build an airfield here. I fail to understand why waste effort and not use one of many airfields that local airforces use. Hey, maybe we could even get some of their birds to help. I would feel far safer with a dozen or two of good old F-16s covering my ass. But my bosses are obsessed with secrecy.
.....
Looks like they changed their plan and there will be no new base in Argentina. They are sending a whole Skyranger just to pick my up.
.....
Skyranger is now armed with a railgun gunpod. It looks like a very interesting thing. Mike (Pilot of the Skyranger) said that those will be installed on new Ravens.
......
Of course I am the one to test the first Raven with new armament. I am not sure that I am comfortable with losing half of my missiles. Holes it leaves in concrete are impressive but strafing is a one thing, hitting those bastards in the air is another.
......
So. New ones detected. There are two of their "fighters" now. God save us all. It is gonna be hard. This time we must catch them by surprise, they don't expect new weapon
-
ptw
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Cleansing the Path (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7659121#msg7659121) (1): Blood_Librarian
Crossroads (1) strongpoint
I think Crossroads is better because EP point is more viable long term. Maybe we can consider sending unarmed skyrangers and give 3rd XH-2 to Notsoft but I think giving Skyranger some way to shoot back is preferable. Also, it gives some ground attack to them.
Cleansing the path is more or less the same but without use of additional EP
-
Cleansing the Path (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7659121#msg7659121) (1): Blood_Librarian
Crossroads (2): strongpoint, Chiefwaffles
-
Resource Point
EP (4): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, Happerry, SaberToothTiger
UP (0):
VP (0):
Cleansing the Path (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7659121#msg7659121) (1): Blood_Librarian
Crossroads (3): strongpoint, Chiefwaffles, SaberToothTiger
-
SaberToothTiger
Can I ask why you don't want to use EP this turn?
-
It might be a bit awkward, but I misread the plan. I am summarily changing my vote to Crossroads.
-
Cleansing the Path (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7659121#msg7659121) (1): Blood_Librarian
Crossroads (3): strongpoint, Chiefwaffles, SaberToothTiger
Blackwater (1): Cnidaros
I acknowledge that VP is less useful long term, but I don't like the odds of two of our fighters against two of theirs, even with gun pods.
-
Cleansing the Path (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7659121#msg7659121) (1): Blood_Librarian
Crossroads (3): strongpoint, Chiefwaffles, SaberToothTiger
Blackwater (1): Cnidaros
I acknowledge that VP is less useful long term, but I don't like the odds of two of our fighters against two of theirs, even with gun pods.
I expect to lose the air in both cases. Question is how many of our guys will be able to land. And E point is just so much more necessary now. We'll have to spend 1EP to equip aircrafts every single turn.
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Surely you would want to have as many Equipment Points as possible, since the interceptors need at least one EP for their railguns, and your 3 NS units need their own rail guns too.
As long as you get on land this should be a cinch. And then you get MORE shinies of whom can beget more shinies...
Like, your best shit comes from the single proper victory.
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Battle
Craft(s): 1 Alien Lander, 2*Alien Fighter
Destination: Australia
Location : Landing
XCOM arrives in force just as Small UFO is dropping down towards the city. With no interest whatsoever in stealth or subtelity, the UFO sets down in the central plaza. High above, our two Ravens pounce upon the enemy UFO's. Both pilots opt to fire their entire (reduced) missile payload immediately, sending twelve missiles towards the enemy. Almost immediately, the enemy activates some sort of ECM protocol, and most missiles go wild. Only 2 hit targets, and they appear to inflict limited damage.
Missiles depleted, the Ravens close in aggressively. The railgun pods underneath the wings fire, sending tungsten slugs tearing through the attacking UFO's. The UFO's shudder under the assault but remain in the air. The ravens are less lucky. Plasma fire engulfs the 2 planes, and they desintegrate as they crash down to the Earth.
On the ground, XCOM is deploying in force, 3 Skyrangers dropping of troops through the city. With the enemy still distracted, they take up overwatch positions in the sky. Plasma fire from the landing light UFO tears one Skyranger from the sky, before the other two return fire with their Phoenix pods.
With 2 Skyrangers overhead, and a full 3 human squads on the move, the Sectoids stand little chance. One by one they're picked of at range, too far away to use their grenades or the gift. Railgun slugs pierce through or blow up cover until none remain. But the sectoids did not come alone. A new alien makes it's present felt. Large, man-shaped octopuses, camouflaged as ordinary objects or as well dressed humans, suddenly tear through the XCOM squads. Two entire squads get torn limb from limb before the last remaining members and the overwatching Skyrangers manage to put them down.
Mission Succesfull : 2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Alien Nav Computer token, 1 Unit experience Token
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
4 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Alien Nav Computer token, 1 Unit experience Token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Design Phase
Challenge reward: Later
Turn 5
AABBCCDD
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10ebbor10 Did they choose to not use their drones? There are none in the battle report.
-
There were none in the battle. They did have twice as many sectoids as usual, and the camouflaged murderoctopusses.
-
Maybe we should create some sort of scanner to detect heat and potentially other anomalous signals to counter the Cthulhuboys? There was a proposal of a similar kind before and perhaps it is more viable now.
-
I am more worried about their continuing advantage in the air
Landslide missile (1 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Alien Nav Computer token)
Landslide missile is a new air to air missile matching Avalanche in size. It is very different to its predecessor. Its electronics are like nothing that was seen before; enhanced with alien computer technology with enhanced anti-ECM measures. What makes the missile even more strange is its unconventional warhead. It is based on enemy plasma weaponry. Shortly before reaching the target Landslide fires a single plasma blob at point blank range. Unlike alien version our crude plasma gun is one shot weapon that causes missiles to explode.
Yes, this is an aa weapon that tries to get some experience in plasma weaponry. May be better without an exotic warhead
RX-drone, (1 Alien Nav Computer token, 1 Alien Equipment Token)
RX drone is a small unmanned jet build around a railgun similar to Phoenix gun pod but integrated. It is is truly unmanned because it is controlled by a combat AI. This AI is limited in its possibilities. It doesn't know how to engage land targets. Its cooperation with allied X-COM craft is limited to friend or foe recognition. It can't use (or even carry) any additional weapon. But it can detect unique signature of enemy vessels and it can fire more accurately than any human pilot. On board computer of the drone is unlike any other produced by humanity because it is heavily influenced by alien electronics. RX-drone is built to at least match Raven's speed and operational range.
This gives us a new fighter but keeps Raven usable in a role of more versatile fighter. Yes, I still dislike direct replacements. It would look far more promising if we captured their scout drones... but no such luck.
We can also go for a tank (in X-COM meaning of the word), ground to air missile, specialized infantry unit, body armor (but no new alloys :( ), grenades
-
Design: Lightning Interceptor (1 Alien Equipment; 1 Alien Nav Computer)
The Lightning is the next generation interceptor. We've observed and played with alien gravity-based propulsion before, but we knew we couldn't implement it in our aircraft due to insufficient computer systems. That is no longer a limiting factor for us, with the new alien technology to work off of.
The Lightning entirely foregoes missiles in favor of railguns. It is equipped with three Phoenix pods. Its alien-based navigation system allows the pilot to pull of stunning maneuvers with remarkably little training, gracefully weaving in the air like no earth-based aircraft could ever hope to accomplish. Its gravthrusters are something extraordinary - like the alien craft, it can go in any direction at amazing speeds, and we've still included some propulsion from the Raven in order to guarantee a better speed than any known alien spacecraft. It's extremely agile, naturally.
Finally, the nav computer also handles targetting. A gravity-based sensor suite on the Lightning allows it to easily ignore any targetting countermeasures, and combined with the extreme agility/speed of the Lightning, it should be extraordinarily easy to get positive hits with the Phoenix gunpods.
The Lightning has basic alien alloy armoring, but its main measure of defense should be its agility.
Design: Tactical Awareness Visor (Alien Nav Computer)
Designed to be able to be equipped by itself or embedded in any helmet, the TAV is an Augmented Reality HUD for our troops. The TAV is a transparent visor that displays images on itself with the illusion of them being physical objects in the real world - "augmented reality".
Using numerous small cameras - such as infrared, visible, and the like - combined with a small integrated computer, the TAV can help our operatives' awareness in the field. The main use is target recognition. Through heat, shape, sound, and more interesting techniques like looking for the pulses of living beings, the TAV can very reliable detect anything it judges as a living or relevant entity. These entities are highlighted based on familiarity - fellow operatives get green (no rookies shooting other rookies), humans get blue, unknowns get yellow, and confirmed threats get red. In addition to very easy recognizing of targets, the varied cameras ensure that it works regardless of visibility - NO MORE NIGHT MISSIONS the aliens can't hide in the dark. The highlighting also works behind walls and other obstructions in case something like the sound sensor picks up movement out of sight. There are also indicators if any movement/beings are detected behind/to the side of the wearer.
This iteration of the TAV has something different - the implementation of tech originating from the alien navigation computer. It turns out the aliens have some pretty advanced computing systems; especially with target recognition. By using human-alien computing in the TAV, we can do an impressive array of things. The enhanced targeting should do wonders, immediately recognizing any potential targets. Immediate identification of weakpoints. Predictive targeting ("the alien is likely going to be here by the time you press the trigger"). Battlefield analysis of any targets or UFOs or anything. Detecting disguised aliens. Easy medical analysis of any being. And much more.
It also has other functions deemed relevant like current mission objective, the status of any networked devices (like "ammo in gun"), radio status, and anything else deemed relevant. But the main feature is target recognition and highlighting, which should greatly help in any case; especially against a stealthy and unknown foe.
While not necessary for operation, the TAVs can share data with each other - so if your TAV-equipped squadmate can see something, you can see it (highlighted) too. The TAV also displays the vital signs of allies based on their own vital sensors and the estimated condition of aliens based on their pulse.
TL;DR: An augmented reality HUD that highlights targets+allies in different colors using a large variety of sensors and has some other miscellaneous functions. Open for improvement in the future too.
((References: MS HoloLens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_HoloLens) - A commercial - and very cheap relative to us - AR device; Automated Target Recognition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_target_recognition) - just general info on target recognition stuff; Kinect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinect) - Not AR, but is also commercial, "reliably" recognizes humans, can sense pulses through the skin, skeletal recognition, and more all while being a fraction of the price of even the HoloLens; and more. The ideas of "target recognition" and "augmented reality HUD" are already fairly present in modern culture and civilian+military tech.))
Design
Landslide Missile (0):
RX-Drone (0):
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (0):
Also, as a note, we should probably consider revising our ground sensors for this revision. We can either use the Alien Nav Computer token or just use experience from whatever we spent the token on (which was confirmed a while ago by Ebbor to be completely viable). Basically make our sensors detect alien communications/gravity signatures. It makes sure the aliens don't pull off stealth, but more importantly, lets us choose when to engage - we get advantages in air combat if our interceptors engage the aliens when they're in certain locations.
So if we see them as soon as they enter the atmosphere (or perhaps earlier) then we get to choose where our interceptors engage them.
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Partly anti-grav fighter looks quite ambitious for me even with tokens. As I said earlier I dislike designing direct replacement of Raven. There are other ways to buff our airforce that will complement not replace Ravens. Neither I am a fan of throwing away an option of missiles.
HUD is nice to have but I am more worried about the skies.
Idea of going for better sensors looks like one that comes out of nowhere... I don't understand what in our current situation justifies this move. There are no indication that they are going for stealthy fighters. They are going for winning the skies not for hiding from us.
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Well, first, you are completely wrong about direct replacements.
"Guys! I know the Mosin-Nagant isn't that useful in the Iraq war, but we shouldn't do direct replacements! There are other ways to buff our guns that will complement not replace the Mosin-Nagant!"
Second, I already made it clear that pre-emptively eliminating stealth is a bonus of upgraded sensors. Not the purpose.
Upgraded sensors means we will be able to choose where we engage them. It's already been established that we can get sizeable advantages based on where our aircraft engage theirs - like how we get a bonus to our side if we fight them when they're still entering the atmosphere. Upgraded sensors allows us to do this nearly all the time.
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Guys! I know the Mosin-Nagant isn't that useful in the Vietnam war, but we shouldn't do direct replacements! There are other ways to buff our guns that will complement not replace the Mosin-Nagant!"
Argument has no sense because real world armies aren't limited by one design per turn. It is more like: We have a bolt action rifle and no machinegun at all. We can get either new machinegun or semi-automatic rifle. What we should we do?
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The thing below maaaay be little too ambitious.
Goliath (2 Alien Equipment; 1 Alien Nav Computer)
Goliath is a new combat aircraft. It is a large, powered by six jet engines supersonic aircraft around the size of a large passenger jet. It has a crew of 12. It comes with a large number of innovative features;
1) Large caliber integrated railgun that goes through the whole aircraft from tail to nose. It is slightly traversable allowing more precison
2) Underfuselage weapon mount and 4 turrets that can be equipped with different weapons, from standard auto-cannons to Phoenix pods, to future weapons
3) An experimental anti-grav unit. This is based on studied alien tech. There are not nearly as advanced as alien version and has very limited power, its main purpose is to add a tiny bit of manuevrability to a large aircraft and help it to stay in air with a severe damage to aerodynamic elements or
4) Armor that come as a result of testing of captured plasma weapons. Key opponents of aircraft, like pilot cabin are protected by it
5) Computer system inspired by alien design that aids crew in aiming turrets\main railgun allowing to engage enemy at long range
I think version without anti-grav, just a flying railgun battery with computer assisted aiming , may be more practical.
I also really want to use Unit Experience token for a revision. This is why I am fine with using all other other tokens in the design.
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Armagedden Intercepter (1 Alien Equipment, 1 Alien Nav Computer)
Simply put, the Armagedden is designed for the interception of alien aircraft and dealing with their landers.
For one, the propulsion and fuel have been modified to exclusively use "low"-yield Elerium (Which is still far more energy dense then jet fuel.), This modified fuel mix allows a higher flight ceiling, acceleration, and maximum speed, along with a higher tonnage increase without compromising its superior maneuverability.
In addition to its 6 Missile mountings, it has two "slots" for integrated weapons, one is built into the nose, and the other is a turret on the bottom o its fuselage, slightly below the center of mass. The center-mounted railgun is designed for being even more dangerous than the Phoenix, able to hopefully pierce enemy aircraft with better reliability than the phoenix Pod. The second integrated weapon is a railgun "turret". designed to either be used by the gunnery control pilot, the railgun is connected to a comparatively vast computer system that allows the weapon to make precision shots against both tailing enemy aircraft or ground targets with merciless precision. This weapon has 360 rotation and can target pursuing UFO's as long as its "underneath" the aircraft.
Inside the aircraft's, the fuselage is a rack designed to accept downward facing missile/bomb type weapons, either for quickly ejecting out from the bottom of the craft and pursuing towards the enemy or heading towards a ground designated target. As design goals have not been put towards making any type of weapon like this, the B-Team has been tasked with finding either an acceptable "import" from a nation or making something that might actually work. The bomb type munitions are specifically "smart" ones, that could be steered by the gunnery officer while the ship is in flight.
In addition to its weapons, the craft is absurdly durable. From the ground up, it has been built with either alien materials or traditional materials that have shown the most resistance to enemy weapons. The crafts unique structural composition in addition to the surgical procedures committed to the pilot has resulted in a craft and pilot able to handle High G maneuvers, acceleration, and other detrimental effects.
Both pilots have been equipped with several implants designed to increase their survivability and increase the speed at which they can interact with aircraft systems, this is mostly based upon (and borrows parts form) Sectoid implants. With the pilots able to interact with the aircraft solely by their minds and the Man-Machine Interface, the physical controls are merely there to transition the pilot while they are training to use the aircraft and as a back up if the communication between aircraft and pilot fails.
In short, the craft has a dozen advantages over the Raven.
- Elerium propulsion
- Integrated weaponry- Turret and nose mounted
- Downward facing missile rack
- Superior construction and structure
- Augmented Pilots and the capability to use them
Armageddon (1):Blood_librarian
Goliath (1): Strongpoint
Landslide Missile (0):
RX-Drone (0):
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (0):
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First, I can assign my votes myself. If I propose something it is often nothing but something to discuss. Do not assume that it is my vote.
Armagedden is... difficult. Impressively difficult. Adding as much stuff as you can thin off is NOT the best way to play arms games. You are asking way, way too much. You have a very complex aircraft and then... add cybernetics when he have zero experience in this. This is something that is a design (and not an easy one) alone.
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10ebbor10
BTW, what we got as our trophies? Remains of their light UFO(nav computer token + Sectoid pistols (alien equipment token) + ???
Did we get grenades like ones they used in Brazil? Did we get any other relatively intact parts of the crashed UFO?
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Plasma pistols, grenades and a navigation system.
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Ebbor, what kind of token would antigrav propulsion fall under, or have we not seen that one yet?
And Armageddon sounds nice but too difficult. It adds a ton of different features, and the implanted pilots is just out of left field and seems both hard and largely unrelated. Implanting anyone feels like it'd be its own design.
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You haven't seen the corresponding token yet.
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Two more ideas:
Vengeance: (2 Alien Equipment; 1 Alien Nav Computer)
Vengeance is a ground to air missile unlike any other created by humanity. It's hull is made from Plasma resisting materials (derived from intensive testing of captured plasma pistols) giving automatic systems enough time to detonate its nuclear warhead as close to the target as possible. It's rocket engine is boosted by an explosive force of small amounts of explosive Elerium. It's electronic package is reliable, protected against enemy interference and component's derived from Alien computers. Such missile system is intended to be placed on X-Com bases but council members are requested to provide sites for such launchers outside X-Com bases.
It is a quite brute force approach that uses all three tokens.
Council member support troops (unit experience token)
Sometimes X-COM needs. Veterans of NOTSOFTER with combat experience are dispatched to armed forces of council members to train their own anti-alien teams that are meant to be used as support teams for X-COM. NOTSOFTER veterans teach soldiers how to use regular human weaponry against more advanced alien technology and how to provide support to better armed NOTSOFTER unit. (Goal is better Inter Agency Cooperation teams with higher combat capabilities and ability to deliver them to any country and lover (fractional) unit cost)
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Armageddon (1):Blood_librarian
Goliath (0):
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
RX-Drone (0):
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (0):
Vengeance (0):
Council member support troops (0):
I think the Lightning is too ambitious, as ever. We haven't even done anti-grav in any of our designs, despite what the fluff says, yet the Lightning wants to do that along with gravity-based sensors, and alien alloy armouring when we haven't even got soldier armour yet. Also, I would prefer to wait for the corresponding antigrav token.
Armageddon is literally the F-35 of designs.
Strongpoint, I disagree with you about direct replacements being bad. That would be the case in other Arms Races, but this one has an explicit points-cost system. The RX-Drone will cost points, and be mutually exclusive (and thus be a replacement) to some degree with Ravens. Thus, it should be a better air-combatant per point than the Raven, or it's not worth designing.
I would be open to doing council member support troops, but as a revision.
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Armageddon (1):Blood_librarian
Goliath (0):
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
RX-Drone (0):
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): SaberToothTiger
Vengeance (0):
Council member support troops (0):
I believe that we shoud use the revision token for the Phoenix pods instead of using the design phase on a new interceptor. Our main problem in the air is the fact that our missiles are being bamboozled out of the air and the pods not having enough firepower to compensate. A revision phase would be enough to fix that flaw in the pods, I believe.
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The RX-Drone will cost points, and be mutually exclusive (and thus be a replacement) to some degree with Ravens. Thus, it should be a better air-combatant per point than the Raven, or it's not worth designing.
By that logic new transport is also a replacement of Raven. They use same VP points. The whole idea of new vehicles filling slightly different niches is too give us tactical flexibility in production depending on what kind of mission\enemy we face. Also, different designs are harder to counter for the enemy. Let's say they go anti-pilot psionic, they counter both old and new fighters.
Also, there are such thing as quality of rolls. Sure, we want to get thing that is better than a straight better Raven. Literally any fighter that will roll 8 will send Ravens to hangars forever. Low-mediocre rolls are a different story. Getting replacement of about the same strength as replaced design is very inefficient. Getting a design that is specialized in different things can be very useful even if it is roughly as good as one before it.
I would be open to doing council member support troops, but as a revision.
It is an option but I am not sure that revision will give a big enough impact
Our main problem in the air is the fact that our missiles are being bamboozled out of the air and the pods not having enough firepower to compensate. A revision phase would be enough to fix that flaw in the pods, I believe.
Our main problem in the air is the fact that our fighters die to fast. Making slightly better railguns won't fix that. We need numbers, armor, agility, decent long range weapons.
If majority wants direct replacement of our current fighters... Here is my Raven II proposal
Sparrow (2 alien equipment, 1 Nav Computer)
Sparrow is the second generation X-COM fighter. It is much shorter and narrower than Raven and built with speed and maneuverability in mind. It's single pulse detonation engine is similar to one of the ones used on Raven fighter but it comes with elerium turbocharger system that adds tiny amount of raw elerium into the detonation chamber giving substantiation boost to power in combat situations. It has a fixed forward facing railgun wich is basically a longer version of Phoenix pod that goes from the tail to nose of the aircraft and this allows far high firing velocity than regular Phoenix. It still can carry missiles but its payload is limited to two of them on hardpoints located near the tip of wings Its electronics are partially based on alien computer system are even more advanced than one used on Raven. Sparrow's Computer system linked to pilot's helmet assist railgun aiming and provides important information about trajectory of incoming plasma blobs (Behavior of plasma is thoroughly studied on smaller scale by testing captured pistols) to assist dodging.
Here is my idea of a revision of Avalanche should we go for a design that saves tokens
Avalanche II (1 equipment token, 1 nav computer token
Avalanche II has two improvements. Its electronic is upgraded with alien derived systems and its warhead has added ellerium for a much more powerful blast.
Look, 2 out of 12 missiles hit their targets. It is not that bad. Make it 4 out 12 and increase the punch and result would be very different. But we need to save tokens to make this revision possible. This is why I am voting for a design that spend unit token. Phoenix are great as weapon for Skyrangers but I prefer Ravens\future fighters starting the fight on long range.
Armageddon (1):Blood_librarian
Goliath (0):
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
RX-Drone (0):
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (1): SaberToothTiger
Vengeance (0):
Council member support troops (1): strongpoint
Sparrow:
I believe that additional infantry is very useful for land battles. While it can be done as a revision, I think it should be design because it tries
a) Improve their ability to fight with aliens\cooperate with X-COM
b) Improve their deployment
c) Reduce their cost
Three different things are hard to improve by revision
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I consider the Landslide a bad idea because it should just have a normal warhead. If we want a plasma gun for our planes we should try to design a plasma gun for our planes. The Armagedden, as has been mentioned, tries to do way to much in one go. The Lightning, on the other hand, is a better design but I consider the utter lack of missiles as a mistake. As for the Council member support troops, I don't consider that super urgent right now because they already cost a unit point. Any major improvement will probably increase their cost, and we still only have 3 UP so if we do end up increasing their cost we might well find that they're unaffordable to deploy in the first place. If we just want to get it working globally then it shouldn't take a design.
I'm not completely sold on the Visor system, and would prefer either to do the base building action again or try to design some Alloy Armor, but the Visor should be useful enough against the stealth aliens and will also hopefully be useful later on against bigger nastier aliens when we can revise it to highlight their weak points. As such, I'm voting for the Tactical Awareness Visor.
Armageddon (1):Blood_librarian
Goliath (0):
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
RX-Drone (0):
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (2): SaberToothTiger, Happerry
Vengeance (0):
Council member support troops (1): strongpoint
Sparrow:
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I consider the Landslide a bad idea because it should just have a normal warhead. If we want a plasma gun for our planes we should try to design a plasma gun for our planes.
Well, I kinda agree with Landslide warhead is too fancy to really work. It is one of my early offers and I don't even consider voting for it. Not that version with normal warhead is hard to write. (but I think avalanche revision is far more cost effective)
On other hand we "can just design a plasma gun" goes against the spirit of this. It makes a one shot weapon that melts down itself.
I don't consider that super urgent right now because they already cost a unit point. Any major improvement will probably increase their cost, and we still only have 3 UP so if we do end up increasing their cost we might well find that they're unaffordable to deploy in the first place.
Ehm? What? Increase their cost? How? My design tries to reduce the cost to fractions of UP and\or get "free" UP points. I go for designs exactly because I want lover cost, better deployment and better performance wrapped in one package.
UP represent our ability to train and field troops. This design is all about training and getting an access to larger pool of recruits. In some way I am designing new recruits unit.
Inter Agency Cooperation team is a useless unit in its current form. Aereal reconnaissance program is of very marginal usefulness, too. But both represent elements of a "cooperating with armed forces tech tree" I think we should build on it and make them more useful.
I really dislike going for HUD because
1) It will, very likely, cost EP and we are quite short on those already. Choosing between XF and HUD isn't fun at all.
2) Our alien equipment token doesn't offer have a good synergy with it so we have to use it on some revision like? Will we just keep it there for later? Looks inefficient for me
3) Nav computer token gives some synergy, but, I think, there are things that will benefit more from Nav computer parts more
One more idea
Trophy team, 2x alien equipment token, unit experience token
History of wars has many examples of captured equipment being useful against the enemy. It is even more true when enemy is technologically superior. Special subdivision of NOTSOFTER specializes on using captured alien weapon against former users.
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I don't consider that super urgent right now because they already cost a unit point. Any major improvement will probably increase their cost, and we still only have 3 UP so if we do end up increasing their cost we might well find that they're unaffordable to deploy in the first place.
Ehm? What? Increase their cost? How? My design tries to reduce the cost to fractions of UP and\or get "free" UP points. I go for designs exactly because I want lover cost, better deployment and better performance wrapped in one package.
UP represent our ability to train and field troops. This design is all about training and getting an access to larger pool of recruits. In some way I am designing new recruits unit.
They already only cost 1 point, and given that they aren't limited to a Skyranger or other transport to deploy there's no way they're going down to 0, because that'd let us spam infinite amounts of them at any battlezone within their access range. While increasing the area in which they can be deployed probably won't change the cost, the design attempts to make them better at the same time it makes them cheaper as well as increasing the area. At best, they'll stay as 1 cost units, but it's more likely that they'll end up going up in cost if they becoming notably more effective.
I also doubt that fractional costs are going to be a thing, anyway. At best, we'd end up with something like the Phoenix pods, where we get more then one for one point, but that'd probably need a very good role on an action focused on making them cheaper, not an action trying to go for better and cheaper and more widely appliable all at once.
Basically, I find that that attempted action attempts to do three things at once, two of which are pulling in the opposite directions, and therefor do not believe it will work usefully.
I really dislike going for HUD because
1) It will, very likely, cost EP and we are quite short on those already. Choosing between XF and HUD isn't fun at all.
2) Our alien equipment token doesn't offer have a good synergy with it so we have to use it on some revision like? Will we just keep it there for later? Looks inefficient for me
3) Nav computer token gives some synergy, but, I think, there are things that will benefit more from Nav computer parts more
In all honesty I dislike basically every suggestion this turn, and would really prefer to go for a base to get more points, or go for some sort of unit class with the EXP token just because I really want to find out how they'll actually work so I can actually make proper cost assessments on them, but unlike half of the proposed designs here the Visor only uses up one token instead of all or half of them on one design, directly counters the Ethereal's newest monster, is easily revisable later to point out weak spots in any enemy giant robots first or to highlight the psi using aliens first, and the ability to see aliens through walls is no small benefit in and of itself anyway given how many objects our railguns should be able to shoot through and still kill a sectoid on the other side.
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They already only cost 1 point, and given that they aren't limited to a Skyranger or other transport to deploy there's no way they're going down to 0, because that'd let us spam infinite amounts of them at any battlezone within their access range. While increasing the area in which they can be deployed probably won't change the cost, the design attempts to make them better at the same time it makes them cheaper as well as increasing the area. At best, they'll stay as 1 cost units, but it's more likely that they'll end up going up in cost if they becoming notably more effective.
GM can go - they cost 1VP but you get a token like effect for them as long as action is happen in a country that didn't left X-COM. No infinite amounts. Or many other options.
I also doubt that fractional costs are going to be a thing, anyway. At best, we'd end up with something like the Phoenix pods, where we get more then one for one point
I don't understand your logic here. Phoenix proves that there are fractional costs. If we had 1\3EP equipment for infantry the last turn than we would use it.
Basically, I find that that attempted action attempts to do three things at once, two of which are pulling in the opposite directions, and therefor do not believe it will work usefully.
Improving three thing at once are bad for revisions. For designs? Why not?. We are creating a new thing. New thing can be better in everything comparing to the old thing.
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New idea
Missile design to win back our skies. It may be an overinvestment but... They may feel secure about our missiles, go for anti-rail gun thing this turn... And get a nasty surprise.
Rockfall (2 alien equipment tokens, 1 nav computer
Rockfall is the second generation of X-COM air to air missile. It uses elerium-based additives both to warhead
(increasing the power of the blast) and fuel (giving it more speed). It's on board electronics is a mix of Human and alien computer systems made to be extremely resistant against any imaginable ECM. It's guidance system is fine tuned to detect sources of Elerium and target them, especially power elements used in plasma batteries. Such sensors are made possible by intensive studying of infantry sized plasma weaponry and extrapolating the data for larger plasma weapons[/b]
We'll get a faster missile, with a better ECM, better warhead and one that targets key components. We shoot missiles from the long range, damage their plasma guns go in and finish the job with rilguns. Far better than current battles. This uses all tokens and I think it is important. For revision we can do something unit related.
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Armageddon (1):Blood_librarian
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (2): SaberToothTiger, Happerry
Council member support troops (1): strongpoint
Rockfall missile (1): strongpoint
Removed all zero votes things, one can always add it back voting for it. Voting for two different thing as both fit my general strategy (either use all tech tokens on design and unit token on revision or use unit token on design, tech tokens on revision) I believe that both are good short term way to improve our power with an addition of useful knowledge for future related designs. (numerous possible cooperation projects with squad, fuels\elerium explosives for the missile)
My thoughts on stuff that got votes
Armageddon: Ludicrous difficulty expected.
Lightning Interceptor: Anti-grav is too early for my tastes. Abandoning missiles seems wrong. As it intentionally tries to avoid EP by going integrated I expect higher VP cost comparing to Raven. Making it not very flexible for going for different missions should they go for more than one.
Landslide Missile: It is my early draft of new missile, I consider Rockfall to be a better option
Tactical Awareness Visor: This isn't a bad thing to have. Yet I think it is perfectly designable without alien nav computer token. I find it a viable option but prefer to go other directions for now. This is a nice design for the time when we'll have no tokens or have parts of their scout drone.
Few ideas I am not writing detailed description but may consider voting for if I'll like someones's else offer
-Long Range radar to be installed in X-COM base
-Dedicated sniper infantry unit
-Tank with Phoenix as main armament, preferably with ground to air capability
-Elerium boosted grenades
-Means of capturing alive sectoids
-Anything that uses all three tokens in a logical way.
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Use the tokens to make a massive leap ahead into something to make sure you don't need to invest more research into it for a while.
The octopi are a big threat that needs to be resolved, however atm numbers can counter that okay. Actually, just space your dudes out more so they can only take one squad on at a time melee.
I would suggest making a much improved interceptor.
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I am ready to support fighter that doesn't have anti-grav, puts a good use of at least two tokens, either uses missiles or have a really good reason of being unable to. Bonus if it is not a better copy of Raven.
On other hand I believe that ground to air or air to air missiles are better solution to air superiority problem. Also, I believe that grunts that need no Skykangers to be deployed can be extremely useful, but our current form is useless. Even if we'll hav a mission in Europe\North America, we'll have little reason to go for NOTSOFTER + cooperation teams instead of going NOTSFOTER all the way.
Yet another idea
Colibri (1 nav computer token, 2 alien equipment tokens)
Colibri is a light one engine fighter jet designed for short range dogfighting. It is small as possible and very nimble. It is closer to WW2 fighter in its mentality and design philosophy than to modern missile using fighters like Raven. It's main armament is a Phoenix derived railgun going from the tail to the nose. It's secondary armament is two wing mounted 20mm automatic cannons coming with HEAP bullets boosted with elerium to make them more explosive (1 alien equipment token). Additionally it can carry two standard missiles on it's wingtips. Colibri's electronics suite is compact and effective being partly based on alien technology (1 nav computer token), Electronics include system that allows to detect concentrations of Elerium (1 alien equipment token) in alien aircrafts to easily target crucial subsystems of UFOs or spot ground targets. Target cost is 1 to 1.5 VP
You can ask why auto-cannons instead of successful Phoenix pods? Better rate of fire, lover cost, smaller size, better for strafing. If I go two Phoenix pods, that means it can carry as much as Raven and it means it has greater payload, while I want an opposite to be true. Also, I am worried that enemy may go for small combat drones at some point, sniping those with railgun will be extremely hard. Essentially Colibri is a flying railgun, secondary armament is exactly that: secondary armament.
Anyone likes this design enough to vote for it?
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I am 100% unwilling to blow basically all of our tokens on one design when we can't depend on getting more of them with any amount of reliability.
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I am 100% unwilling to blow basically all of our tokens on one design when we can't depend on getting more of them with any amount of reliability.
I have an opposite opinion. Not spending tokens equals to not investing them. Sure, if you have revision\next turn design plan that needs some specific token saved then it is fine to delay their use but hoarding resource just in case is plain wrong.
BTW, enemy just got one unrestricted token + something. It is not the time to go slow.
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Adjusted the Armageddon to be slightly more reasonable. I removed the downward facing bomb system, added more missile points, and removed the nose weapon, this should make it a far easier piece of equipment to make.
Armagedden Intercepter (v3) (1 Alien Equipment, 1 Alien Nav Computer)
Simply put, the Armagedden is designed for the interception of alien aircraft and dealing with their landers.
For one, the propulsion and fuel have been modified to exclusively use "low"-yield Elerium (Which is still far more energy dense then jet fuel.), This modified fuel mix allows a higher flight ceiling, acceleration, and maximum speed, along with a higher tonnage increase without compromising its superior maneuverability.
In addition to its 8 Missile mountings, it has a single integrated turret on the bottom of its fuselage, slightly below the center of mass. The integrated weapon is a railgun "turret". designed to either be used by the gunnery control pilot, the railgun is connected to a comparatively vast computer system that allows the weapon to make precision shots against both tailing enemy aircraft or ground targets with merciless precision. This weapon has 360 rotation and can target pursuing UFO's as long as its "underneath" the aircraft.
In addition to its weapons, the craft is built to be durable. From the ground up, it has been built with either alien materials or traditional materials that have shown the most resistance to enemy weapons. The crafts unique structural composition in addition to the surgical procedures committed to the pilot has resulted in a craft and pilot able to handle High G maneuvers, acceleration, and other detrimental effects.
In short, the craft has a dozen advantages over the Raven.
- Elerium propulsion
- Integrated weaponry- Turret
- Superior construction and structure
Armageddon (v3) (1):Blood_librarian
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (2): SaberToothTiger, Happerry
Council member support troops (1): strongpoint
Rockfall missile (1): strongpoint
Edit: Removed the entire bit about implants.
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I am still not voting for Armagedden because
1) Improved jet fuel is trying to solve issue that is not there. We are not losing in speed. Also, token helps but it doesn't apply that well
2) Turrets kill aerodynamics. Central mounted railgun is too good to dismiss
3) I don't believe in durability against plasma for jet powered aircraft that has to be light. If we want to build a flying tank we'll have to wait till we mimic alien propulsion
4) Implant stuff is still complex enough to be a separate design
Armageddon (v2) (1):Blood_librarian
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (2): SaberToothTiger, Happerry
Colibri (1): strongpoint
I decided to switch my vote for an airforce. With them getting unrestricted token, there are is a very high chance that they will field more UFOs. I am not comfortable sending one raven to... let's say two fighter + lander groups. We need to improve our punch in the air. Missile are an option, too but I prefer VP using stuff to EP using stuff.
Why I think that Colibri is a way to go to win back skies?
1) It tries to be cheap, giving us flexibility in VP distribution.
2) It helps future infantry techs - elerium explosives and elerium detection sensors (that can be integrated in HUD)
3) It is decent for strafing and ground support, roles that other proposals (including my alternative aircrafts) can't do well
4) It is usable against possible enemy in form of small combat drones. In the same time its long railgun gives it decent change against larger, better armored UFOs
5) It can work together with a future flying anti-grav tank we will build sometime later. If we go for some kick-ass 4VP machine of death we may still need a way to capture lone scouts
6) It's elerium detection ability can be useful against tricks like UFOs invisible in visible light
7) Elerium detection thing can be also use in future improved radar design
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I also have a question to ones who vote for TAV. How do you plan to get EP for it? Last turn we used 2EP on aircraft weapons, 2EP on railguns. What is your plan if TAV costs... at least 0.5 EP? Get rid of aircraft weapons? Send less NOTSOFTER? Send NOTSOFTER units with TAV but no railguns? Imagine if we had 0.5EP cost HUD, what would you change in our last mission plan?
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We don't need to flood our enemy with troops if we can use superior range, accuracy, firepower and recon. We could spare sending oen squad with standard gear and equip two squads with the TAV if it costs 0,5 EP. This would mean that the railgun-toting squad would be even more devastating, as the difficult ballistics would be taken care of by the HUD.
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Increased speed is not fixing an issue, it's making a boon. if we could catch them while they are comming down from orbit, we are in an advantage. increased speed gives us that advantage. I will admit that the implants are a little too much, but that inherent boost in information processing is too good to dismiss. With turrets, we can commit to evasive maneuvering that takes advantage of our speed to avoid hits while still dealing damage, something a centrally mounted rail gun can never do. It also paves the way for mroe superior magnetic weaponry as well as other posibilities.
When I say durable, I obviously meant Durable for an Aircraft. I never stated that I wanted a tank with wings, I wanted an aircraft that was more durable then the Raven by using alien alloys in our construction techniques, while still being more manuverable/etc then the Raven. Using alien alloys obviously helps, since again, centuries worth of technological advanced in metal bricks that we pried off downed UFO's.
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We don't need to flood our enemy with troops if we can use superior range, accuracy, firepower and recon. We could spare sending oen squad with standard gear and equip two squads with the TAV if it costs 0,5 EP. This would mean that the railgun-toting squad would be even more devastating, as the difficult ballistics would be taken care of by the HUD.
I am far from sure that XH+2x TAV will be better than 2xXH. Even if it will be, is this improvement worth a design action? What will you do if we need to split troops? What if it will cost 1EP?
Increased speed is not fixing an issue, it's making a boon. if we could catch them while they are comming down from orbit, we are in an advantage. increased speed gives us that advantage.
We already intercept them at detection height. We can't intercept them earlier than we detect them. It may be a boon in combat, true but I don't think that it is a large improvement
I will admit that the implants are a little too much, but that inherent boost in information processing is too good to dismiss
It is not a "little too much". It is a hard design on its own. You want to squeeze two designs into one. It is not gonna work.
With turrets, we can commit to evasive maneuvering that takes advantage of our speed to avoid hits while still dealing damage, something a centrally mounted rail gun can never do.
Tell me why real world airforce didn't try turreted fighters since beginning of WW2? Turrets ruin aerodynamics and add weight. Also, computer assisted turret is another thing that adds to complexity.
I wanted an aircraft that was more durable then the Raven by using alien alloys in our construction techniques
We don't have alien alloys token BTW, we have some experience with them from XH, but those alloys serve different purpose - heat dispersing and conducting electricity.
Also, there are little point in slightly more durable if result is the same: die from a single shot of an enemy weapon. An fighter jet construction is too fragile by design and can't withstand high energy weapons.
while still being more manuverable/etc then the Raven
Faster, bigger payload, more manuevrable, more durable. This results in cost, difficulty and overly generic designs that are good in nothing.
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We already intercept them at detection height. We can't intercept them earlier than we detect them. It may be a boon in combat, true but I don't think that it is a large improvement
The enemy can't hit us at all if they cant properly aim the shot with the evasive manuvering we would be doing!
It is not a "little too much". It is a hard design on its own. You want to squeeze two designs into one. It is not gonna work.
Yeah, good point, I may trim it out entirely at a later date.
Tell me why real world airforce didn't try turreted fighters since beginning of WW2? Turrets ruin aerodynamics and add weight. Also, computer assisted turret is another thing that adds to complexity.
Because they arn't dealing with aliens. There are obviously solutions for turrets to exist on a plane (recessed into the hull, etc eetc) that wont ruin aerodynamics. Weight isnt a rpoblem because i compensated for it by using the Magic Space alien fuel to make the ship faster and more manuverable anyways.
We don't have alien alloys token BTW, we have some experience with them from XH, but those alloys serve different purpose - heat dispersing and conducting electricity.
Also, there are little point in slightly more durable if result is the same: die from a single shot of an enemy weapon. An fighter jet construction is too fragile by design and can't withstand high energy weapons.
We downed two~ UFO's. this includes all the alloys on the hull that we could want, although the equipment token means specifically " items they found", It will be honestly equivalant if not better then having metal scraps.
Your also assuming that every single shot the enemy fires results in one thing: direct hit. If we have a more durable craft that can manuver faster, we can manuver hits that would otherwise be a direct hit into something that would be only grazing; aka something that we would still die from if hte craft wasnt made out of alien materials that is both impossibly durable and impossibly light. It could be possible that the craft we make would be both more durable and lighter then the Raven in terms of frame-hull weight.
Faster, bigger payload, more manuevrable, more durable. This results in cost, difficulty and overly generic designs that are good in nothing.
It is faster, carries less missiles in return for a turret. It is more maneuverable because of the elerium propulsion, and more durable because it uses alien materials. This results in a craft that requires alien materials, is difficult and shouldn't be an overly generic design that has specialties.
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It is faster, carries less missiles in return for a turret. It is more maneuverable because of the elerium propulsion, and more durable because it uses alien materials. This results in a craft that requires alien materials, is difficult and shouldn't be an overly generic design that has specialties.
In other words try to be better at everything, and have higher cost.
Well, I have a different philosophy here.
Look at Colibri:
It doesn't try to go faster than Raven. It doesn't try to be armored, in fact by being smaller it is more fragile. It goes for the same\slightly lover firepower (lover payload but better railgun +targeting system + new relatively simple weapon system), it tries to be much more nimble, It tries to be cheaper (Only one engine, smaller). It tries to be better in ground support.
The end expected result? Aircraft that fits our current needs. Aircraft that is better than Raven in ways we need instead of trying to improve just everything we can think off.
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Tell me why real world airforce didn't try turreted fighters since beginning of WW2? Turrets ruin aerodynamics and add weight. Also, computer assisted turret is another thing that adds to complexity.
Because they arn't dealing with aliens. There are obviously solutions for turrets to exist on a plane (recessed into the hull, etc eetc) that wont ruin aerodynamics. Weight isnt a rpoblem because i compensated for it by using the Magic Space alien fuel to make the ship faster and more manuverable anyways.
Strongpoint was VERY accurate with bringing up modern air forces: If non-aerodynamics-ruining and effective turrets were REASONABLY possible, the Air Force would be using them now, with computer systems that we already have capable of tracking missiles and planes, and they'd be giving modern bombers and fighters and, especially, ground-attack planes, really cool and useful firing angles. But they don't. Recessing it far enough into the hull to not have ANY effect on aerodynamics just means you have a gun facing in whatever direction, it can't be capable of meaningful movement (Or ANY movement) without affecting aerodynamics. We don't even have turrets on bombers anymore, and yet they still face fighter attack. That tells me that there are issues with aerodynamics, or ammo capacity, or weight (Or maybe I know what I'm talking about and it's all three at the same time), and so they're not feasible, and MAGIC ALIEN TECH WOOOOOO doesn't solve that without making the thing horribly expensive.
As for the implants, just NO. That design is going to be Very Hard IF the GM is feeling extremely merciful. I see no reasons why it shouldn't be fully Impossible, in fact. It's designing a brand-new aircraft AND trying to make our first step into a presumably difficult area of development....at the same time.
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We don't even have turrets on bombers anymore, and yet they still face fighter attack.
Well, it is not because bombers care much about weight or worsened auerodynamics. Turrets on bombers are just useless because fighters won't go to that range and just use AA missiles. (b52 got their tail turret removed only after 1991 modernization)
Our current enemy does go close so turrets are more useful and I can see us going for large turreted aircrafts.
Turret fighters stopped being a thing in WW2, after this interesting but failed attempt - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulton_Paul_Defiant
Blood_Librarian offers high tech version of this concept for dogfighting. (At least I assume this because design fails to inform us about position of the turret and intended firing arc)
I want high tech analogue of something like Zero or Spitfire. If we are forced to fight enemy at close range lets take inspiration from aircrafts that were good dogfighters.
Madman198237 Why don't you vote\offer anything? What do you think about Colibri?
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Been busy. I'd tend to lean towards the TAV, or rather a clone but with some non-alien ceramic armor, except for the darn EPs we don't have.
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If you had bothered to read the original text, the Armageddon does have 4 less missiles then the Raven.
In addition to its 8 Missile mountings, it has a single integrated turret on the bottom of its fuselage, slightly below the center of mass. The integrated weapon is a railgun "turret". designed to either be used by the gunnery control pilot, the railgun is connected to a comparatively vast computer system that allows the weapon to make precision shots against both tailing enemy aircraft or ground targets with merciless precision. This weapon has 360 rotation and can target pursuing UFO's as long as its "underneath" the aircraft.
EDIT: I removed all mentions of implants, seeing as it would be too hard to do and with discussion by other players.
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I wouldn't be surprised if TAV costs anything at all. It's mostly a software thing.
The consumer examples that I posted in the TAV design (and there are a lot more - the ones I posted were just off the top of my head) are very cheap for us. The Kinect cost, what, $100? HoloLens costs $3,000. That's pocket change for us. Ours would be a bit more complex, sure, but not by much.
EP is for things like cutting-edge railguns. Not-so-much "$3,000 consumer headset with a bit of relatively cheap extra tech glued on" (as a note, we're not actually including any alien tech in individual headsets - the nav token is for more or less "being inspired by their nav computer innards" and less so "using their nav computer innards").
And I genuinely think that it's not the right time to design an interceptor. We'd best wait until we get gravtech, which is by far the number one benefit we should be aiming for in a new interceptor.
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We are not getting grav technology for a long time.
What we do have is Elerium. You know, the stopgap between Alien gravity and nothing at all?
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I see absolutely nothing to suggest us "not getting grav technology for a long time."
And Elerium is not a stopgap between Alien gravity and nothing at all. It's a very useful tool, but it has very little to do with gravity manipulation other than them both being taken from the aliens.
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I wouldn't be surprised if TAV costs anything at all. It's mostly a software thing.
I will be quite surprised if they are free. It is simply a matter of game balance. We got what, one free thing? SMART missile but this is technically part of Raven and costs VP.
(as a note, we're not actually including any alien tech in individual headsets - the nav token is for more or less "being inspired by their nav computer innards" and less so "using their nav computer innards").
But it spends alien nav computer token. Once used it is gone. I think nav computer is better used for drone\aircraft electronics
And I genuinely think that it's not the right time to design an interceptor. We'd best wait until we get gravtech, which is by far the number one benefit we should be aiming for in a new interceptor.
Ignoring short term problems for some long time thing that may not happen is a way to defeat.
What will we do if enemy will field more UFOs? What will we do If enemy will start shooting down Skyrangers? What will we do if they'll start spreading their missions?
I can see the logic that jet engine is a dead tech end. This is one more reason to not try Magic Alien Fuel(c)
Colibri doesn't try to improve its jet engines. It develops a more powerful railgun, partly-elerium explosives, elerium detection scanners, on board electronics. All that is useful in future designs. Also, it can stay usable when we'll get anti-grav craft. filling the role of anti-light UFO when future ant-grav craft will work against larger ones.
Don't forget that we have spent a design action on a ground support type of mission. Aerial superiority is important for us. Without Skyrangers in the air we would likely lose the last battle.
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Yes, it does spend a nav token, you're right. But Ebbor has already stated that whatever a token gets spent on can be applied to future designs. Your design uses the nav token for hybrid computing. The TAV uses the nav token for hybrid computing - we can use that hybrid computing for anything in the future, including potentially the Colibri.
And if purely game balance, then TAVs should be free. If purely based on real life examples, then TAVs should be free. They're a small support device. Very useful, but they're not exactly railguns.
I like the Colibri, though. I just think we're dangerously close to losing again on ground. Their disguised units eliminated two squads - we only won because we went mildly overboard with the units sent. And they may very well invest more in ground capabilities The TAV prevents that kind of thing from happening in the future while giving a substantial passive buff to our ground teams.
And while we are close in aerospace combat, we don't rely on it as much. We need ground combat to get tokens. Being good in air combat just kind of helps us on ground (via ground support & crashed UFOs having some casualties before we engage on ground) and gives us more opportunities to engage in ground combat. Being good in ground combat is necessary at all, and we can still fight on ground even if completely outclassed at air.
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Jet engines and Gravi-tech are not mutually exclusive Jet engines could (as an example) give us incredible acceleration and a maximum top speed that gravity drives can't provide. By combining the two or using a rocket engine, we have the ability to go extremely fast and commit to extreme maneuvering that would let us dodge their fire. Besides, at some point, we can incorporate fusion or reactor technology into and get some extreme thrust, rather than rely on electricity-to-propulsion.
Landslide Missile (1): Cnidaros
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (3): SaberToothTiger, Happerry, Blood_librarian
Colibri (1): strongpoint
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we can use that hybrid computing for anything in the future, including potentially the Colibri.
Sure token stays there in a way, giving passible but smaller benefits in the future. It is a reason why I try to use all three tokens in the design. The sooner we use them the better. I would be far more willing to go for land design if it used more tokens.
And if purely game balance, then TAVs should be free. If purely based on real life examples, then TAVs should be free. They're a small support device. Very useful, but they're not exactly railguns.
We understand game balance differently then. There are no point in discussing it because only 10ebbor10 knows which position is correct
Their disguised units eliminated two squads - we only won because we went mildly overboard with the units sent. And they may very well invest more in ground capabilities
It was a night battle in city. Not a very typical kind of combat. If they'll go for ground forces, they will likely not go for more stealth. They'll go for either something that will withstand railgun slugs to some degree or their own long range weapon to spot being sniped from distance. I want air support in this case.
And numerical advantage was no more important than air support from skyrangers
And while we are close in aerospace combat, we don't rely on it as much. We need ground combat to get tokens.
Preventing them from taking tokens is as much important as getting ours. And I really, really, want a wreck of their fighter to study.
Being good in ground combat is necessary at all, and we can still fight on ground even if completely outclassed at air.
I disagree. They can start shooting Skyrangers in the air or start doing air support of their own and that means we have very bad chances. Also, the easiest way to win battles in X-COM games is to storm crashed UFOs.
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Also, I think that we do need to improve our ground forces. And I think it will be done by
1) We sent 3 Skyrangers+2Ravens this turn. We had no enough EP to arm every NOTSOFTER. It is our most likely setup for the next mission, too. If we manage to make Colibri cost at least 2VP but not EP (and it, IMO shoudn't, its weapons are part of the vehicle, not external equipment), then we can give one NOTSOFTER additional XHs, not a minor improvement. Our need to spend EP to arm Ravens is meh for land combat. Stopping that will improve our land forces immediately.
2) We still have a revision to play with (unless we roll awful but...).
3) We have unit experience token we can use to revise NOTSOFTER into a specialist role or do something else with it during revision phase
4) We have ground support, every air design helps battle on the land, opposite is not true
I urge everyone to consider Colibri because of reasons above. I think we are in a bad tactical situation in the skies. Two Raven aren't enough, three ravens + 1 Skyranger is a not usable combination
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I also have a question to ones who vote for TAV. How do you plan to get EP for it? Last turn we used 2EP on aircraft weapons, 2EP on railguns. What is your plan if TAV costs... at least 0.5 EP? Get rid of aircraft weapons? Send less NOTSOFTER? Send NOTSOFTER units with TAV but no railguns? Imagine if we had 0.5EP cost HUD, what would you change in our last mission plan?
I plan to revise more accurate missiles this revision phase, personally, to remove the need to always put railguns on our planes and make sure the other team has to be wary of multiple ways for us to shoot them down, instead of just trying to counter one way. To be precise, a HARM, or Homing Anti-Radiation Missile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile), revision for our missiles to use all that energy they're emitting for their jamming as a big glaring beacon to shove a missile up their tailpipe.
we can use that hybrid computing for anything in the future, including potentially the Colibri.
Sure token stays there in a way, giving passible but smaller benefits in the future. It is a reason why I try to use all three tokens in the design. The sooner we use them the better. I would be far more willing to go for land design if it used more tokens.
The ability to use what we make later on is why I don't want to use everything up, because I feel that given the ability to keep our progress, it's better to focus on one thing at a time to get a good thing we can use later on instead of trying for three different advances and getting meh results that we'll probably have to spend more tokens on later. Also the part where we don't have a reliable supply of them yet...
And if purely game balance, then TAVs should be free. If purely based on real life examples, then TAVs should be free. They're a small support device. Very useful, but they're not exactly railguns.
Given it's basically a Scope (http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/S.C.O.P.E.) type upgrade, I'm expecting some sort of railgun podish 'spend one point, get three' arrangement. Or at least that's what I'm hoping for.
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I plan to revise more accurate missiles this revision phase, personally
You won't get a vote for me. Revision like that with nav computer token would have sense. Revision like that with no token achieves very little. Revision (or design) of a missile with 2-3 tokens could do something substantiation, what you propose will make ineffective weapon slightly less ineffective and will be further negated by their own revision should they wish.
it's better to focus on one thing at a time to get a good thing we can use later on instead of trying for three different advances and getting meh results that we'll probably have to spend more tokens on later.
You get me confused here. Like very confused. It is not like we are rolling for every advance separately, token(s) gives bonus(es) to the whole design. What meh results are you talking about? 8+three tokens = monster, 2+three tokens = still works. You get mediocre results if you spend only one token per time, not it if you invest then in one thing
For example I'll likely won't vote for Colibri-like next turn, without the nav com token (even if I like 95% sure that it will be "we need a fighter now" turn and it will be a bandwagon), I want fighter that will be clearly better than Raven in one or several areas, without heap of tokens I see no way to guarantee that. One thing that I dislike in the winning vote: HUD takes a token nav computer token, while, IMO, having only glancing synergy for targeting system, nav computer is perfect for a fighter or any kind of drone or UFO detection system.
'spend one point, get three' arrangement.
Even that is unaffordable. One point get three will force us to send only one NOTSOFTER with XHs or leave Skyrangers with no pods, or leave Ravens with no pods. Every option looks awful. I can very well see the situation when we'll get HUD and opt to not using it this turn.
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I think this comes down to having a different mental picture of how things work and what the odds are on things then each other, because you seem to be talking nonsense to me half the time and it sounds like I seem that way to you.
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OK. How do you think tokens even work? I think they give bonus to design effectiveness, the more you use, the bigger the bonus. What is your opinion? do you think that if you use more than one it still gives bonus equal to using one?
Mission Success : Loot : 1 VP token, 1 Alien Alloy Token, 1 Alien equipment token
Explanation : VP tokens can be applied to anything that uses VP. You then get 1 VP of that thing for free, every turn. The alien Alloy and equipment tokens can be applied to design and revisions to get a bonus, provided it is relevant.
Anyway I am waiting for the roll. At least it will get TAV out of the way in future turns. It is one of those designs that part of the thread wants from the turn 1 caring little about available resources or current tactical situation. It will pop up again and again until voted.
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I believe that we will forever be oscillating in this space of winning and losing in the ground and air on alternate turns. Right now we're behind in the air and slightly ahead on the ground. But I don't believe that falling doubly behind in the air will still allow our troops to reach the fight unmolested, most likely we'll take some losses as our Skyrangers get shot down (as the aliens take losses from losing the air battle). So I'm voting for the fighter design.
But the TAV is also quite good this turn as a counter to their mimic-murder octopuses, which seem to be quite powerful. Furthermore I think it could have synergy with a revision for a 'sniper' unit class, using the TAV to reliably pick off disguised targets from range, as our railguns can penetrate cover and the mimic-murder octopuses seem limited to melee only.
Ultimately the better option depends on what the enemy picks. If they go for an air design, we should go for the Colibri to ensure we don't fall doubly behind, whereas if they go for a ground design we should go for the TAV, as the air is currently in a situation where we can still reach the fight safely and we want our ground combat to improve and meet theirs, hopefully resulting in the same situation as this turn's battle. However, absent that information, I'll err on the side of caution and vote for the Colibri. If the enemy goes for a ground design, we will then have switched sides and be winning in the air and losing on the ground.
Also, Happerry, I disagree with your opinion about using all three tokens on one design. In my view, we will never reach the point where we are guaranteed a stable supply of tokens. Us getting tokens depends on winning the fight, which in turn relies on whether we roll good designs, which is influenced by tokens. I think spending them on a single design is better than cautiously hoping for more tokens, which we are less likely to get without token-boosted designs.
Lightning Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
Tactical Awareness Visor (3): SaberToothTiger, Happerry, Blood_librarian
Colibri (2): strongpoint, Cnidaros
Final thoughts from re-reading the battle report: why did the aliens set down in the central plaza? Sounds like a terror mission where subtlety is ignored, but then the murder-mimic octopuses don't seem to be very effective as terror units, which shouldn't be disguised for more terror. Also, what's 'the gift'? Psionics? But the battle report doesn't mention any of our men getting subverted.
Also, this just makes the ground-air battle thing more confusing. As I read it, it seems like our two Ravens were defeated by two alien fighters, while three Phoenix-Skyrangers shot down the landing UFO for one loss. But then the remaining two Skyrangers were able to stay and provide close air support, whereas the alien fighters ... just buggered off back home without shooting down our Skyrangers? Unless they were too damaged to shoot down our Skyrangers, which seems unlikely, or ran out of ammo. This seems to indicate the ground and air battles are more disconnected than we believe, perhaps making the TAV a better option.
Seems like it may be worth a revision to reverse-engineer alien grenades if we're going to be doing more urban missions in future, which also gets us in to researching elerium explosives.
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Also, what's 'the gift'? Psionics? But the battle report doesn't mention any of our men getting subverted.
Huh. Whoops. You were not supposed to have that sentence.
whereas the alien fighters ... just buggered off back home without shooting down our Skyrangers? Unless they were too damaged to shoot down our Skyrangers, which seems unlikely, or ran out of ammo.
My error in description. Battles occured simultanously not sequentially. Your Ravens suggested in keeping the enemy away long enough.
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Design: Tactical Awareness Visor (Alien Nav Computer)
Designed to be able to be equipped by itself or embedded in any helmet, the TAV is an Augmented Reality HUD for our troops. The TAV is a transparent visor that displays images on itself with the illusion of them being physical objects in the real world - "augmented reality".
Using numerous small cameras - such as infrared, visible, and the like - combined with a small integrated computer, the TAV can help our operatives' awareness in the field. The main use is target recognition. Through heat, shape, sound, and more interesting techniques like looking for the pulses of living beings, the TAV can very reliable detect anything it judges as a living or relevant entity. These entities are highlighted based on familiarity - fellow operatives get green (no rookies shooting other rookies), humans get blue, unknowns get yellow, and confirmed threats get red. In addition to very easy recognizing of targets, the varied cameras ensure that it works regardless of visibility - NO MORE NIGHT MISSIONS the aliens can't hide in the dark. The highlighting also works behind walls and other obstructions in case something like the sound sensor picks up movement out of sight. There are also indicators if any movement/beings are detected behind/to the side of the wearer.
This iteration of the TAV has something different - the implementation of tech originating from the alien navigation computer. It turns out the aliens have some pretty advanced computing systems; especially with target recognition. By using human-alien computing in the TAV, we can do an impressive array of things. The enhanced targeting should do wonders, immediately recognizing any potential targets. Immediate identification of weakpoints. Predictive targeting ("the alien is likely going to be here by the time you press the trigger"). Battlefield analysis of any targets or UFOs or anything. Detecting disguised aliens. Easy medical analysis of any being. And much more.
It also has other functions deemed relevant like current mission objective, the status of any networked devices (like "ammo in gun"), radio status, and anything else deemed relevant. But the main feature is target recognition and highlighting, which should greatly help in any case; especially against a stealthy and unknown foe.
While not necessary for operation, the TAVs can share data with each other - so if your TAV-equipped squadmate can see something, you can see it (highlighted) too. The TAV also displays the vital signs of allies based on their own vital sensors and the estimated condition of aliens based on their pulse.
Normal : 1 + 1 (Utter Failure) : Token Used [You guys do not have much luck, do you...]
Initially thought very promising, the TAV project proceeded with leaps and bounds. Running the entire recognition and analysis system on captured alien hardware for a performant and effective system, that performed near perfect in almost all tests. Unfortunately, the last group test ended in tragedy. While the details are limited, the end results are dramatic. It appears that the soldiers equipped with the TAV went on a rampage, destroying the lab, it's notes and then the prototypes. Why they did this, we do not know, as they themselves expired shortly thereafter from severe brain damage.
With most of the project destroyed (and the rest suspect), we can not deploy the TAV. However, we gained some experience with alien computing.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
4 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Alien Nav Computer token, 1 Unit experience Token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Revision Phase
Turn 5
AABBCCDD
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*facepalms* I was too optimistic expecting that TAV will go out of the way. On other hand we can go for a result oriented thinking and be happy that it didn't happen with a 3 token design.
Few proposals
Reduced railgun cost (alien equipment token)
By studding inner workings of plasma pistols and theorizing about alien ways of manufacturing, X-Com modified its railgun designs to allow easier production without reducing performance (reduce cost of XH and Phoenix pods)
Send instructors to expand Inter Agency Cooperation(unit experience token)
Ones who were students became teachers. X-COM sent its combat veterans to South American special forces, training local special forces in fighting alien menace (goal: Make Inter Agency Cooperation teams freely deployable in South America, reduce unit cost, Inter Agency Cooperation teams, maybe reduce panic)
Advanced pilot helmet
Modern pilot helmets are wonderful pieces of engineering but they are programmed for fighting against other jets using missiles. By integrating both experience gained in fighting with aliens and insights got during the failed TAV project, X-COM developed helmet that aids pilot's aiming and evasion in high speed dogfights with alien crafts.
First one may allow us to arm third notsofter with XHs and give us some breathing room for EP in future. I also will likely propose another proposal of cheap fighter with a spinal-like railgun next turn. Learning how to make those cheap will be handy.
Second one is an attempt to get numbers and some tactical flexibility. For example should they go heavy in Brazil again, 3 ravens+Skyranger+Notsofter+Cooperation teams may be a very viable option. Also, it uses token that is hard to use in design next turn.
Third one is an attempt to squeeze something out of that 2 and give us a tiny boost in the air.
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HARM Rockslide
The Homing Anti-Radation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile) Missile 'Rockslide' is an alteration of the Avalanche that replaces the normal sensors that the Avalanche uses to home in on targets with sensors designed to lock onto and track the massive energy signature the alien ECM system must emit to mess with normal Avalanche missiles, and therefor turns what is a bane for a normal missile into a giant 'shoot me sign' for the Rockslide.
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HARM Rockslide
The Homing Anti-Radation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile) Missile 'Rockslide' is an alteration of the Avalanche that replaces the normal sensors that the Avalanche uses to home in on targets with sensors designed to lock onto and track the massive energy signature the alien ECM system must emit to mess with normal Avalanche missiles, and therefor turns what is a bane for a normal missile into a giant 'shoot me sign' for the Rockslide.
We know exactly nothing about how their ECM works to assume that HARM will work. Their ECM may have no energy signature at all. Or they may turn it off and laugh as our missile fails to target them :D
Also, design uses no tokens, wasting opportunity to get buff(s)
Also, it does nothing with the second problem of missiles - low punch.
Also, it gives no useful tech experience outside of missile guidance (and even that is not an improvement but reuse of 50 year old technology)
If anyone really wants better missile, I offer this
Avalanche II (2 alien equipment tokens)
Avalanche II is an upgrade of Avalanche missile. Its warhead is upgraded with small amount of elerium to increase its punch. Rocket engine also got some Elerium additives improving speed of the missile. Existing guidance system was removed and replaced by more ECM resistant and adapted to target enemy plasma cannons (targeting developed by studying plasma pistols and extrapolating it to bigger plasma weapons)
but I don't think it is a great decision
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HARM Rockslide
The Homing Anti-Radation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile) Missile 'Rockslide' is an alteration of the Avalanche that replaces the normal sensors that the Avalanche uses to home in on targets with sensors designed to lock onto and track the massive energy signature the alien ECM system must emit to mess with normal Avalanche missiles, and therefor turns what is a bane for a normal missile into a giant 'shoot me sign' for the Rockslide.
We know exactly nothing about how their ECM works to assume that HARM will work. Their ECM may have no energy signature at all. Or they may turn it off and laugh as our missile fails to target them :D
Lolwhat? We know EXACTLY how it works---it sprays out information in the bands we're trying to track them with, confusing our missiles' tracking computers. A HARM is the *perfect* way to shoot down something that isn't using flares or decoys, but IS still using ECM.
Oh, and as for them shutting it off, you DO realize that we can just carry one of EACH missile, right? Or are you still to busy being condescending over TAV (Which was a perfectly functional and useful design, our infantry are STILL getting ambushed and it sucks, and needs to be fixed) to think about it?
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Almost immediately, the enemy activates some sort of ECM protocol, and most missiles go wild.
This is the only thing we know. We know that enemy did something. It is very useful information. This something can be something that ignores HARM missiles.
Oh, and as for them shutting it off, you DO realize that we can just carry one of EACH missile, right?
Great, half of missiles are bad in any case! Also, forget about railgun pads in this case. half of payload will be avalanche 1, half of payload will be avalanche 2.
Besides even HARM do work, it still doesn't fix weak warhead issue and still gives no useful experience, no tactical flexibility, only slight buff to airforce
Which was a perfectly functional and useful design
Yes, but being functional and useful is not exactly enough. Designs need to fit the situation.
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"Being functional and useful is not enough"
OK, fine, we'll make that interceptor proposal that didn't get voted in, the one that included the ridiculous implants, because that fits the present situation better than TAV (It didn't) and is ambitious enough that lack of ambition won't waste the phase (I mean, the *lack* of ambition won't).
So, Strongpoint, ALL ECM works on the basic principle: Noise makes it harder to track you. From chaff in WWII to flares and EW planes today, things that make your environment noisy make it hard to find you in and amongst the noise. Therefore, they're utilizing some sort of noise system mounted on the UFOs to confuse our missiles' targeting systems.
If they're doing most other possible things, like manipulating our missiles' computers remotely, then they should have just used that on our planes and we'd have lost the air war already.
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"Being functional and useful is not enough"
OK, fine, we'll make that interceptor proposal that didn't get voted in, the one that included the ridiculous implants
"Not enough" is not the same as "not necessary".
ECM can be anything; invisible drones flying around and attracting missile, Some way to project signal outside of UFO while not generating any noise. Making UFO itself invisible to radar or heat seeking warhead (btw what guidance avalanche use?) Distant destruction of electronics (Raven may be simply more resistant to that). In any case this discussion is irrelevant. I consider trivial revision like this is dubious short term, bad long term.
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Send instructors to expand Inter Agency Cooperation (1): Strongpoint
Time to start the voting box. My vote goes here because
1) It gives us tactical flexibility.
2) I like long term effects of cooperating with other armed forces of humanity. For example, I can see us cooperating with airforces and helping them to get Raven-like craft for themselves
3) We have unit experience token. We won't use it on a design anytime soon. Better bank on it now when we have some breathing room and have no need fixing a design (because there are none)
4) Revisions are there to improve useless technologies that still have potential. Inter Agency Cooperation teams are such technology. There are very little reasons to use them over NOTSOFTER. This revision can change it.
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ECM can be anything;
No, it can't, ECM has well-defined and unavoidable qualities.
invisible drones flying around and attracting missile
Game over, we lose.
Some way to project signal outside of UFO while not generating any noise.
Probably game over, we'll probably lose if they have some sort of wormhole or other teleportation tech that can move the signal in that way...Also, you don't understand the term "noise". Noise is anything that's not the signal you want to hear, and it only hurts active tracking devices. Passive ones, like IR-guided, can be distracted by noise from other targets (i.e., flares), but wouldn't be effective if, say, the enemy warplane suddenly lit itself up like a candle with a dazzling display of infrared patterns---the missile would keep tracking it. An active radar-guided missile, however, would be horribly confused by the target lighting up a wash of radio waves that, to it, don't make sense, and drown out the waves that it's "listening" for, the ones it sent out in the first place.
Making UFO itself invisible to radar or heat seeking warhead (btw what guidance avalanche use?)
Definitely game over.
Distant destruction of electronics (Raven may be simply more resistant to that).
This is just a ridiculous claim. If anything, the missile's electronics are tougher so that it will survive acceleration better. The Raven is just a bigger target. Oh, and if they can do that then we lose.
In any case this discussion is irrelevant. I consider trivial revision like this is dubious short term, bad long term.
Glad any discussion you can't win is irrelevant. Deciphering how their tech works is essential. As for the "dubiousness" of this revision proposal, give us another one, one that prevents their ECM from simply overriding our missiles and thus making us entirely ineffectual in the air. Or, propose a revision that fixes our aircraft problems in other ways.
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ECM has well-defined and unavoidable qualities
I mostly agree with Wikipedia's definition of ECM
An electronic countermeasure (ECM) is an electrical or electronic device designed to trick or deceive radar, sonar or other detection systems, like infrared (IR) or lasers. It may be used both offensively and defensively to deny targeting information to an enemy. The system may make many separate targets appear to the enemy, or make the real target appear to disappear or move about randomly.
there are many ways to do that
Or, propose a revision that fixes our aircraft problems in other ways.
I proposed two revisions that help airforce. Three if you count an attempt to make Phoenixes cheaper.
I prefer to spend that unit experience token because... well read two posts above.
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ECM has well-defined and unavoidable qualities
I mostly agree with Wikipedia's definition of ECM
An electronic countermeasure (ECM) is an electrical or electronic device designed to trick or deceive radar, sonar or other detection systems, like infrared (IR) or lasers. It may be used both offensively and defensively to deny targeting information to an enemy. The system may make many separate targets appear to the enemy, or make the real target appear to disappear or move about randomly.
there are many ways to do that
Why yes, yes there are. You create some form of "noise" in the spectrum being used to target you (On your aircraft if the tracker is active, off of it if it's passive), which will confuse (Active) or distract (Passive) tracking systems. If they're using something that DOESN'T just create a lot of noise, such as the alternatives you suggested, please see list of "that means we've already lost" for alternatives.
Wikipedia defines things (usually) accurately, but the definition is not the method in this case---ECM DOES scramble trackers, and can produce those EMR waves however you like, but the effects it has are both highly important and very limited.
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I consider "that means we've already lost" to be little too pessimistic.
I agree, that most likely, there will be some positive effect from HARM. I am slightly worried about the chance of it not giving effect because ECM method chosen by them may counter that by design.
In any case there are many reasons why I dislike Happerry's approach
1) It doesn't use tokens. I want revision that uses at least one (including "using" experience gained from the failed project).
2) Our missiles have no enough penetration. I'll be absolutely fine with the current 1 in 6 hit ratio if they'll actually do something to their armored fighters.
3) Missiles compete with pods... And those pods are quite nice
4) Reinventing HARM gives no technology to use in future designs.In some way it is opposite to Armagedden design. It does too little. If it was revision does that, that and adds HARM option it would be far more feasible
5) I totally plan to offer a spam fighter design next turn. Fighter design that will have built in railgun as its main weapon with little or even no missiles.
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At the start our planes with missiles were basically winning before they did ECM, if this doesn't roll another 1 this should mean our missiles will be winning again. Railguns worked but they didn't work as well as missiles did, so I consider bypassing their ECM more then worth it. As for Tokens, while getting a better warhead or something would be useful, I want to focus on getting the HARM working, because our current missile warheads were, well, working when most of our missiles actually hit the other guy. If we still had a computer token I might have gone for alien based sensors but, well, we don't.
HARM Rockslide (1): Happerry
Send instructors to expand Inter Agency Cooperation (1): Strongpoint
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At the start our planes with missiles were basically winning before they did new fighter
Fixed the quote.
Railguns worked but they didn't work as well as missiles did, so I consider bypassing their ECM more then worth it.
Note that Skyrangers shot down the scout UFO without any issues. Railguns work well.
"Bypassing" is a wishful thinking. At best, you'll reduce effectiveness of their ECM not bypass it bringing back pre ECM performance of Avalanches.
Also, why not improve railguns instead?
________
Here are a list of all of our aerial battles
-1 Raven vs light UFO > total victory
-1 Raven vs light UFO > draw\marginal defeat
-2 Ravens vs 1 first generation fighter > total victory
-3 Ravens vs 2 light UFOs and their second generation fighter > Total defeat
-2 Ravens vs 2 second generation fighters > Defeat
We are losing to their second generation fighters not to ECM. Even if we'll magically turn off their ECM, this won't force them to start using less advanced UFOs.
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I consider "that means we've already lost" to be little too pessimistic.
You can only say that because you haven't thought through the consequences of (Or don't know the science behind) invisibility to ANY part of the EM spectrum, or incredibly low visibility (incredibly small, mostly invisible, etc.).
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Where are you guys? I know that two 1\16 low rolls in a row are a bit depressing but we haven't lost yet.
Updated Raven electronics (1 Alien equipment token)
Raven's electronics got complete overhaul, they are updated using knowledge gained during TAV project and reinforced against possible enemy interference. Additionally, as a secondary project, X-COM engineers are tasked to develop a way to detect concentrations of Elerium and\or components of plasma weapons. Raven's missiles are updated, too. Their guidance is updated to be able to alternate\combine between heat, image recognition, HARM, radar or, possibly, elerium seeking guidance allowing pilot to choose guidance method before launch or even in flight
Hitting non-essential parts of enemy UFOs looks like our main problem.
I still prefer to improve our cooperation with special forces around the world. I want to have way to deploy enough forces should enemy do two missions. I see long term potential in it. I want to use that unit experience token and next turn bank equipment tokens on an aircraft. But if thread prefer to improve airforce, then, IMO, thing above is our best bet.
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HARM Rockslide (2): Happerry, Madman
Send instructors to expand Inter Agency Cooperation (1): Strongpoint
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This kind of revision would make some sense last turn, when we had no Phoenixes and we would improve our missiles. Right now it is close to doing nothing unless you want to pretend that we never developed phoenexis and switch back to all missile ravens. Wishful thinking that tech from 1960s will negate their fighter is naive. At best it will make their ECM less useful. At worst it will do nothing.
Waiting for proposals from other players, chances are that I'll vote for it over that kind of revision. No matter what it will be. I hardly imagine anything I may dislike more unless someone will intentionally try to make a bad revision.
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A HARM is a very, very useful thing to get right now. Our fighters STILL carry missiles, they just ALSO have railgun pods, and the fact that you gloss over this as if it's not important is ridiculously harmful to our side. Or would be, if you won every vote.
Voting for any other revision because this one would accomplish its stated goals (And its goals are worthy of a revision for sure) at an Easy difficulty is absurd. Who CARES if it's using an advanced version of tech from the 60s? It will get what we need, and serve well for at least one turn.
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A HARM is a very, very useful thing to get right now. Our fighters STILL carry missiles, they just ALSO have railgun pods, and the fact that you gloss over this as if it's not important is ridiculously harmful to our side. Or would be, if you won every vote.
Heh, I have an advantage of having of having zero of my designs\revisions voted so their harmful effects can't be proved. I am relatively sure that apart from two first turns, most of solutions I wanted were better options.
Problem of our fighters still using missiles is easily solvable. Make phoenix pods cheaper so there will be no missiles. Besides, while I do not think that upgrading missiles is optimal, I don't think that missile revision is a bad idea. This missile revision is. This doesn't. It is so shortsighted it hurts.
Also, very-very useful is debatable. Performance of Avalanche missiles is appalling. Two missiles hitting a scout UFO isn't enough to do a moderate damage to it. Fighter UFO straight ignored being hited by those
Voting for any other revision because this one would accomplish its stated goals (And its goals are worthy of a revision for sure) at an Easy difficulty is absurd. Who CARES if it's using an advanced version of tech from the 60s? It will get what we need, and serve well for at least one turn.
Voting for any other revision because this goes for a minor goal in a lazy way with no long term thinking, with no usage of available resources, no synergy with our existing tech, and going for a trivial difficulty because of gambler fallacy or some other illogical reason. The funniest part that in this case I won't even have a chance for I told you, because whatever minor effect will be, it will "worked as intended"
In any case... looks like thread is little to inactive to my tastes.
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I'm still watching, but I think we're pretty screwed barring the Ethereal side messing up. If next turn is like last turn, they'll probably win on the ground now, assuming they did the reasonable thing and went for a ground combat design.
Also, Madman, mind turning down the vitriol? It's making this thread rather off-putting to read.
HARM Rockslide (3): Happerry, Madman, Cnidaros
Send instructors to expand Inter Agency Cooperation (1): Strongpoint
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That's not an advantage. I'd call it a problem, since none of your ideas have been accepted by enough people to get votes. But we don't WANT to replace missiles, they have longer range than the railguns. Having these missiles in our arsenal means they will basically have to get smarter about the ways they prevent us from hitting them---classic ECM won't work any more. Yes, Avalanche now needs an upgrade. Let's see how this turn shakes out and we can figure out what's most important.
Dude, it is not gambler's fallacy. You took what I said, and regurgitated it with added falsehoods. Honestly, Strongpoint. Synergy? Who cares? Trivial difficulty? Well, guess what, it still invalidates their ECM work as well as anything else. Better, most likely. As for it being funny, yes, it's hilarious that you're arguing against what is unequivocally the best way to accomplish the stated intentions---stopping their ECM from entirely blocking our missiles.
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First off, I don't understand how you think the Railguns are super effective, given...
Missiles depleted, the Ravens close in aggressively. The railgun pods underneath the wings fire, sending tungsten slugs tearing through the attacking UFO's. The UFO's shudder under the assault but remain in the air. The ravens are less lucky. Plasma fire engulfs the 2 planes, and they desintegrate as they crash down to the Earth.
...We shot the UFOs more then once with the things and they didn't take down the enemy Fighters.
As for 'Two Missiles Do Nothing' it seems to be a lot more variable then that, given this battle report...
Night is falling when our interception force finally nears the AO. Suddenly, verdiscant plasma fire bursts from the clouds. Our pilots change course immediately, only narrowly avoiding the massive plasma barrage. Up close, our pilots can see the rather noticeable design differences. This UFO appears to be far smaller, and clearly has far more weaponry. In addition, it has a weird resemblance to some Earth craft, having actual wings within it's circular shape. As it turns to chase one of our interceptors, the other gets behind it and manages to launch missiles.
Two explosions blossom in the night sky. One of them must have damaged a vital component, as the UFO suddenly drops from the sky, and tumbles down into the pacific.
Where two missiles did kill an enemy fighter. So it looks like it depends instead of 'One Missile Always Does the Same Amount of Damage'.
Bluntly, I don't see how you think that getting experience in targeting in an alien ECM environment is bad, because they aren't going to stop using ECm any time soon, I don't see why you think actually hitting the enemy with missiles is bad given that the second we do a 'bigger warhead' design we can just add 'and it has a HARM variety' to the design action and then have our bigger warheads still actually hit, and I also really really fail to see how 'makes our main anti-air weapon actually work' has 'no synergy with our existing tech', 'no usage of available resources' when its an upgrade for the only anti-air weapon we don't have to spend EP, and we're always low on EP, and 'no long term thinking' when it should be useable to some degree throughout the entire rest of the game unless they give up ECM altogether. And if they give up ECM all together in response to our revision, that's an action trade that well favors our side.
Missiles and railguns are a good combination, as missiles have long range, thereby giving our craft a basically guaranteed first attack and then the railguns can be used on any survivors with far more ease and chance of actually getting more then one attack run because the survivors will have already taken damage.
I'd say you're the one with no long term thinking given you seem to want to write off missiles altogether the second someone does an anti-missile design action. It's like giving up on railguns because the other side invented armor.
Wishful thinking that tech from 1960s will negate their fighter is naive. At best it will make their ECM less useful. At worst it will do nothing.
It'd also be nice if you could debate in better faith then claiming stuff being used (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-88_HARM#AGM-88E_AARGM) and developed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Anti-Radiation_Missile) today is outdated because the first versions were put into production a few wars ago? It's about as accurate an argument as claiming that the railguns are useless because the first one was developed back in 1845 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun#History).
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HARM Rockslide (3): Happerry, Madman, SaberToothTiger
Send instructors to expand Inter Agency Cooperation (1): Strongpoint
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SaberToothTiger, you deleted Cnidaros' vote.
HARM Rockslide (4): Happerry, Madman, Cnidaros, SaberToothTiger
Send instructors to expand Inter Agency Cooperation (1): Strongpoint
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That's what I get for not paying attention. Thanks Happerry.
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That's not an advantage. I'd call it a problem, since none of your ideas have been accepted by enough people to get votes.
Unpopular doesn't mean bad.
I'd say you're the one with no long term thinking given you seem to want to write off missiles altogether the second someone does an anti-missile design action.
What I really hate is when words are put in my mouth. I proposed an alternative missile revision very this turn. I proposed two missile designs one stage before. How the hell I want to abandon missiles? I may want to put them aside for some time, sure
I don't see why you think actually hitting the enemy with missiles is bad given that the second we do a 'bigger warhead' design we can just add 'and it has a HARM variety'
And I don't see why we can't do a real revision of a missile and add a fluff line - it also has HARM variety
First off, I don't understand how you think the Railguns are super effective, given...
Because 3 Ravens vs 1 fighter + 2 UFO landers was much more one-sided than FAR HARDER fight of 2 Ravens vs 2 fighters. Also Skyrangers used it to deal with scout UFO. Ravens should shred scout UFOs
'no usage of available resources' when its an upgrade for the only anti-air weapon we don't have to spend EP, and we're always low on EP,
Missiles are part of Raven, they are included in VP cost. So they are not that free.
As for 'Two Missiles Do Nothing' it seems to be a lot more variable then that, given this battle report...
THEY DON"T USE THAT FRAGILE DESIGN ANYMORE. Also your are talking about a lopsided 2 vs 1 battle here
One last attempt to sway thread's opinion on this vote (I am sad that unit experience token is wasted. I expect it to stay unused for a very long time. Mark my words)
Landslide (without alien equipment token)
Landslide is an improved version of avalanche. Using experience gained during development of TAV project, missiles electronics were miniaturized and improved. Freed spare space allowed installation of several guidance systems systems that can be chosen by the pilot and changed midflight; radar, heat and, most importantly, HARM
Landslide (with one alien equipment token)
Landslide is an improved version of avalanche. Using experience gained during development of TAV project, missiles electronics were miniaturized and improved. Freed spare space allowed installation of two guidance systems systems that can be chosen by the pilot and changed midflight; First one is HARM. It is created to locking on a signal general by enemy ECM. Second one is an innovative set of sensors that allows missile to lock on enemy plasma guns or other important systems. It proved its effectiveness during small scale testing, successfully targeting plasma pistols.
Landslide (with two equipment tokens)
Landslide is an improved version of avalanche. Using experience gained during development of TAV project, missiles electronics were miniaturized and improved. Freed spare space allowed installation of two guidance systems systems that can be chosen by the pilot and changed midflight; First one is HARM. It is created to locking on a signal general by enemy ECM. Second one is an innovative set of sensors that allows missile to lock on enemy plasma guns or other important systems. It proved its effectiveness during small scale testing, successfully targeting plasma pistols. Another important advancement is an optional modification of warhead that adds tiny amounts of Elerium, increasing the power of the blast. While it is not as strong as alien explosives found in their grenades, it is still the most powerful missile warhead ever created
HARM Rockslide (4): Happerry, Madman, Cnidaros, SaberToothTiger
Landslide (without alien equipment token): Strongpoint
Landslide (with one alien equipment tokens): Strongpoint
Landslide (with two alien equipment tokens): Strongpoint
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HARM Rockslide
The Homing Anti-Radation Missile 'Rockslide' is an alteration of the Avalanche that replaces the normal sensors that the Avalanche uses to home in on targets with sensors designed to lock onto and track the massive energy signature the alien ECM system must emit to mess with normal Avalanche missiles, and therefor turns what is a bane for a normal missile into a giant 'shoot me sign' for the Rockslide
Trivial : 4+4+2 = 10 (Unexpected boon)
The HARM Rockslide Mk1 is perfectly serviceable missile, which uses a sensitive sensor to identify and hit UFO targets. It is not however, what was presented at the conclusion of the research project. No, what was presented is the Rockslide Mk5, which uses a complex array of sensors and a surprisingly sophisticated onboard computer to identify and target things that behave like they're UFO's. This heuristic targeting system is surprisingly adaptable and should provide an improvement of missile accuracy in all situations.
UFO DETECTED
Alerts blare through XCOM HQ. Alerts go off, as signals are detected all over the globe. The Aliens are moving once again, and in force.
Target: Egypt
Craft: 1x Alien Lander
Altitude : Landed
This UFO was detected when it was already on the ground. UAV footage has identified silver containers, Sectoids and several of their mimic octopusses on site. They appear to be engaged in one of their mass kidnapping operations, and preparing for take-off.
Target: Mexico
Craft: 1x Alien Lander
Altitude : High atmosphere
Another UFO, same size, is coming hot over Mexico. Target is still unknown, but it appears to heading one of the less inhabited areas.
Target: France
Vehicle: 1x Alien Lander
Altitude : Orbital re-entry
This one is coming in directly overhead. In fact, we believe that it'll pass within range of the base defenses, though nowhere near close enough to identify us. In theory, we may be able to shoot it down.
Target: Japan
Vehicle: 1x Alien Lander
Altitude : Landed
We spotted this one landed in Japan. Once again, a kidnapping operation, with both drones and sectoids in attendance. Interestingly, our UAV spotted several armed human groups moving towards the alien landing site, before the our UAV connection was somehow terminated.
Target: Brazil
Vehicle: Unknown Medium UFO
Altitude : Reentry
We picked up this signal the moment it hit the atmosphere. It's powerful, more energetic than any we've seen before. It appears to be heading to Brazil.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
4 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Alien Nav Computer token, 1 Unit experience Token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Interception Phase
Turn 5
AABBCCDD
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Oh, how sweet that 8 would be on a revision that actually tried to get a "complex array of sensors and a surprisingly sophisticated onboard computer" in the first place.
I don't even want to think about possible benefits from what I proposed with inter-agency cooperation.
Also
Sparrow
Sparrow is a very small and nimble jet fighter built around a railgun. Secondary armament includes 2 hardpoints for missiles. Sparrow is built with close dogfighting in mind and tries to achieve maximum maneuverability allowed by human anatomy and jet engines
X-R Drone
X-R drone is a really small jet aircraft. It is unmanned jet aircraft with high speed and relatively low endurance. It can be controlled either through satellite uplink or directly by nearby X-COM operative. It is built around one weapon: high caliber railgun with a battery for a dozen of shots. It is designed to fit into Raven's hardpoints to be deployed midflight but it can be launched from the X-COM base (suffering from limited range) or attached to the roof of Skyranger.
Black Raven
Black Raven is a simplified version of Raven. Engineers got a mission to make Raven cost two times less even if some performance sacrifices are required. It is mostly done by replacing complex components with simpler. Some parts are made smaller benefiting from new materials gained during XH project.
RX-drone, (1 Alien Nav Computer token, 1 Alien Equipment Token)
RX drone is a small unmanned jet build around a railgun similar to Phoenix gun pod but integrated. It is is truly unmanned because it is controlled by a combat AI. This AI is limited in its possibilities. It doesn't know how to engage land targets. Its cooperation with allied X-COM craft is limited to friend or foe recognition. It can't use (or even carry) any additional weapon. But it can detect unique signature of enemy vessels and it can fire more accurately than any human pilot. On board computer of the drone is unlike any other produced by humanity because it is heavily influenced by alien electronics. RX-drone is built to at least match Raven's speed and operational range.
Sparrow (2 alien equipment, 1 Nav Computer)
Sparrow is the second generation X-COM fighter. It is much shorter and narrower than Raven and built with speed and maneuverability in mind. It's single pulse detonation engine is similar to one of the ones used on Raven fighter but it comes with elerium turbocharger system that adds tiny amount of raw elerium into the detonation chamber giving substantiation boost to power in combat situations. It has a fixed forward facing railgun wich is basically a longer version of Phoenix pod that goes from the tail to nose of the aircraft and this allows far high firing velocity than regular Phoenix. It still can carry missiles but its payload is limited to two of them on hardpoints located near the tip of wings Its electronics are partially based on alien computer system are even more advanced than one used on Raven. Sparrow's Computer system linked to pilot's helmet assist railgun aiming and provides important information about trajectory of incoming plasma blobs (Behavior of plasma is thoroughly studied on smaller scale by testing captured pistols) to assist dodging.
Colibri (1 nav computer token, 2 alien equipment tokens)
Colibri is a light one engine fighter jet designed for short range dogfighting. It is small as possible and very nimble. It is closer to WW2 fighter in its mentality and design philosophy than to modern missile using fighters like Raven. It's main armament is a Phoenix derived railgun going from the tail to the nose. It's secondary armament is two wing mounted 20mm automatic cannons coming with HEAP bullets boosted with elerium to make them more explosive (1 alien equipment token). Additionally it can carry two standard missiles on it's wingtips. Colibri's electronics suite is compact and effective being partly based on alien technology (1 nav computer token), Electronics include system that allows to detect concentrations of Elerium (1 alien equipment token) in alien aircrafts to easily target crucial subsystems of UFOs or spot ground targets. Target cost is 1 to 1.5 VP
Looks like have lost this turn no matter what we do. Thinking abut how to reduce the damage
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Plan try to cover them all
Combined Arms Mexico
Raven (1xPhoenix pod, 1x rockslide missile)
2xInter Agency Cooperation teams
Interception Brazil
Raven - rockslide missiles only. Ram them if necessary (don't think that it is a valid tactic order but can't hurt to add)
Combined Arms Egypt
Skyranger with Phoenix pods
Notsofter with XH rifles
Combined Arms Japan
Raven with SMART missile and Phoenix pod
Activate base's missile defence France
Reasoning
1)Mexico should be relatively easy. If we are lucky and it will somehow land damaged, Inter Agency cooperation teams should work
2)Brazil - I don't want to overinvest in one mission. We know that attacks in reentry phase are beneficial. One Raven may be lucky enough to smash down that new UFO that may be their answer to the pods. Just fire all missiles in it and hope it is enough. I know that second tick of panic in Brazil is bad, ignoring missions are worse.
3) Egypt One Notsfoter unit + air support should give a decent chance to win.
4) At the very least Raven may destroy the lander on the ground. If we are lucky we'll help unknown allies (if those are human collaborators, we'll still may be able to destroy the landed UFO)
5) We must try our base defenses
Plan try to cover them all(1) strongpoint
Edited the plan to cover them all
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Oh, how sweet that 8 would be on a revision that actually tried to get a "complex array of sensors and a surprisingly sophisticated onboard computer" in the first place.
I don't even want to think about possible benefits from what I proposed with inter-agency cooperation.
Looks like have lost this turn no matter what we do. Thinking abut how to reduce the damage
We get it, you're salty and whiny, and think that your chosen actions would magically make everything better because you're the only competent person with good ideas on this thread instead of realizing that when people repeatedly vote for other options you're probably wrong.
Mainly what this shows is that we need to get that Argentinian Jungle Outpost built so we have more VP.
Now on to the important things, like deciding what to do this turn. We have 6VP, one free Skyranger, and six targets. We'll only be able to hit three of them unless we're going to give them a big fat hint where our only current base is, and those will be one on one fights. The good news is that there's zero Fighters involved in 5 of the flights and one of them is coming down in France, which is in Europe so we can send Inter Agency Cooperation teams after that one once we shoot it down.
As such, here's Happerry's Interception Plan
Spend 2 EP on Phoenix railgun pods
1 Raven (2 VP) with a Railgun Pod+Rockslide Missiles verses France UFO, Combined Arms Mission.
-2 UP : Send two Inter Agency Cooperation teams after the France UFO once its shot down.
1 Raven (2 VP) with a Railgun Pod+Rockslide Missiles verses Mexico UFO, Combined Arms Mission.
1 Raven (2 VP) with Railgun Pod+Rockslide Missiles and one Skyranger (0 VP, Free) with Railgun Pod verses Japan UFO, Combined Arms Mission.
-1 UP : 1 NOTSOFTER on the Skyranger with XH-2 Railgun Rifle (1 EP)
One Raven verses the France UFO because it is still in Orbital re-entry and one verses the Mexico UFO because it's still in High atmosphere. As such, we'll have the best chance to make a favorable Interception. One Raven and One Skyranger to Japan, because we really need to make contact with these strange new people, and given they might have shot down our Drone we need to make sure to actually send troops in to find out what is going on, because there's at least a 50% chance we've just ran into Exalt and they're going to be hostile to both of us.
Happerry's Interception Plan : (1) Happerry
Plan try to cover most of them : (1) strongpoint
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Plan above gives two of their missions auto-successes. That is +2 ticks in panic and free tokens.
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Bogey 014, Egypt
Combined Arms
1xSkyranger
-1xNOTSOFTER
+1xRailguns
(0 VP [token], 1 UP, 1 EP
Bogey 15, Mexico
(Down and) Capture UFO
1xInteragency Cooperation Team
(1 UP, 0 VP, 0 EP)
Bogey 016, France
(Down and) Capture UFO
1xInteragency Cooperation Team
(1 UP, 0 VP, 0 EP)
Bogey 017, Japan
Shoot Down
1xRaven
-1xPhoenix Pods
(2 VP, 0 UP, 1/3EP)
Bogey 018, Brazil
Shoot Down
2xRaven
-2xPhoenix Pods
(4 VP, 0 UP, 2/3 EP)
6 VP - 6 Ravens (and one token Skyranger)
3 UP - 3 ICT
4 EP - 1 Railgun, - 1 Phoenix Pods
There, that's a lengthy plan, but it hits everything.
Rough estimate: Enemy has between 6 and 7 total of their VPs, and we're seeing all of them this turn. The Medium costs either 2 or 3, and the basic landers cost 1. We will see after this is all over how many ground units they have. I don't remember if they're limited by UP/EP or not.
All I'm going to do is pray that the ICT guys aren't as incompetent as our soldiers were on the first mission. If they are, we're screwed, at least in those areas. Well, I guess I'm also going to hope that they're utilizing decoy UFOs.
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Losing Interagency Cooperation Team may cost additional panic. Sending one hoping that they'll win 1vs2 fight isn't funny at all. There are some chance that some of UFOs have one unit loaded but even 1vs1 isn't a guaranteed win, Also, looks like their drones use EP points and they are using both crawlers and drones.
Doubling on Brazil looks like overinvestment when we badly need those ravens to shoot down. It may very well be that medium thing will shoot down both Ravens, continue on its mission and screw us completely.
I do not think that keeping location of the base secret is important enough to ignore a decent chance to shoot down an UFO. They'll know that our base somewhere in Europe, it gives them something, but I think that something is less than a free successful mission
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No, it won't cost additional panic, that would make no sense. Doubling on Brazil is the best way to find out what that thing is capable of. Also, if they're using it, they probably have a mission in mind---it's either something big or important, or it's attempting to draw out our fighters and shoot them down. I've chosen a set of gambles to take, other plans will choose other gambles.
I think you're confusing yourself. "a decent chance to shot down an UFO" =/= "a free successful mission".
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No, it won't cost additional panic, that would make no sense.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
I see the bolded part aa a part of panic build up
I think you're confusing yourself. "a decent chance to shot down an UFO" =/= "a free successful mission".
Not using a "decent chance to shot down UFO" = "giving them a free successful mission". If you somehow read that as "using base defense = free successful mission for us" than you misinterpreted what I meant.
Doubling on Brazil is the best way to find out what that thing is capable of
One Raven can give enough information to see if it is a combat monster or not. We know that attacking UFOs in this stage give us a good advantage and I think it is much safer gamble than sending, at best, NOTSOFTER light into 1 vs 2 fights.
____________
My evaluation of chances of individual pieces of currently proposed plans.
Mexico
My: ~90% There are healthy chance to shoot down the UFO. If it crashlands\evades raven there are a secondary chance to win 2 vs 2 or 2 vs 1 on land
Madman's: ~25% - One unit of humans with mundane weapons (they are even worse than our starting rifles). Main hope that those are sectoids + nothing. It has bonus of battle on the land and trophies
Happerry's: 80% Scout UFOs aren't really formidable opponents . One on one are quite safe
Brazil
My: ~30%. I am not very hopeful that we can shoot down new UFO. We still get a chance and valuable information
Madman: 50-60% They are bold enough to send it alone. They look confident that it can fight off Ravens unescorted
Happerry:0%
Egypt
Me: ~65%: we won 3 (one without XH) vs 4 last turn. It is 1 vs 2.
Madman: Same 65%
Happery: 0%
France
Me: 50-60% , disadvantage of giving them a vague idea about location of our base
Happerry: ~95% (same as my Mexico mission but UFO is easier to intercept).
France: 25% (same as Madman's Mexico)
Japan
Me: 90%, I consider chance of UFO taking off as being bad
Happery: 90%. Yes, I think it has no higher chances to prevent them coming back with succes but it does offer bigger rewards for victory
Madman: 90%. Same as my, but it uses rockslide to take out UFO once it takes off, I want to destroy on land using SMART
Madman198237
I am ready to vote for your plan with two changes. 1) One raven moved from Brazil to Mexico. 2) Try to shoot down the UFO over France using base defense. In both cases we'll try to shoot down their UFOs and have cooperation teams as a back-up for failure and\or to capture crashed UFO. I know it sucks to have Brazil further panic increased but I don't believe that our chances to shoot it down will be high enough even with two Ravens. There are also a chance that this one is a trap or decoy. Lets say they developed a medium automated fighter UFO, and just it with a key crew or created large lander for future use... and sent it unescorted with one unit on board as a bait. Alternative that Raven can be reassigned to Egypt to ensure victory there (preferably with SMART + pods)
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Something really weird is going on in Japan.
"Several armed human groups" is really odd. They must not be like shotgun-wielding farmers or police, or we would know. That means that they're most likely government forces. That's really strange, since we're supposed to be the governemnt forces. Then there's the fact where our UAV connection got terminated. We "loan" our UAVs from the countries, meaning that UAV was most likely Japan's. And the wording - "somehow terminated" - means this was unexpected and almost definitely not because of an alien fighter (also we prooobably would have seen their fighter beforehand and they're using a ton of VP in landers + medium craft); I bet Japan cut off our UAV connection.
I would think that this means Japan is secretly collaborating with the aliens, but the armed nature of their groups seems like it means Japan is trying to take matters into their own hands instead of letting us help.
Japan's hiding something from us.
Operation Glass Pyre
Production/Logistics
2 Ravens (4 VP)
3 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix (2 VP; 1 EP)
3 NOTSOFTER Squads w/ XH-2 Rifles (3 UP; 3 EP)
Interception: Bogey 015 (Mexico, Flying)
1 Raven
Interception: Bogey 018 (Brazil, Flying)
1 Raven
Interception: Bogey 016 (France, Flying)
Base Defenses
Combined Arms: Bogey 017 (Japan, Landed)
2 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix
2 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-2 Rifles
Combined Arms: Bogey 014 (Egypt, Landed)
1 Skyranger w/ Phoenix
1 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-2 Rifles
The obvious goal of this one is to overkill their operation at Japan, which is extremely suspicious. We also send a Skyranger + NOTSOFTER Squad to Egypt in order to intercept their operation over there. Sure, it's just one squad but keep in mind that the aliens are splitting their UP between at least 4 Landers, and probably a bigger lander. We're just splitting our UP between two things, and we have some really nice air support thanks to the Skyranger. And nothing to intercept the air support!
So I'm confident there.
Then the rest of the operation is just preventing alien successes. We may not get anything from successful interceptions, but neither do the aliens. The new missiles should be an extreme boon here - accuracy was always a problem, even before ECM. Having a bunch of missiles suddenly now hitting should be a huge advantage for us. I also think Phoenixes would hurt the Ravens since they have good missiles now, so I'm spending that on Phoenixes for Skyrangers to provide air support (and intercepting UFOs before they take off if ground teams notice aliens are retreating to UFO).
We get the base to deal with one UFO, we intercept the Lander with a raven - should go fine. Then we intercept their Medium UFO with a Raven. This may sound suspect, but keep in mind that they already have a fighter. If they've made a UFO, I bet it's just a bigger lander. Our chances may be low here, but it's much better than ignoring or focusing on the craft. We have other, more sure, things to focus on.
TL;DR: Focus on the super suspicious Japan UFO w/ 2 fully equipped NOTSOFTERs. Send a NOTSOFTER to the other landed UFO in Egypt. All Skyrangers will be equipped with Phoenix pods to provide air support, and we can rely on the fact that the aliens are dividing up their UP a ton this time around.
Send Ravens (and use base defense) to intercept the flying UFOs to deny the alien any rewards for successful missions.
Happerry's Interception Plan : (1) Happerry
Plan try to cover most of them : (1) strongpoint
Mass Interception (0):
Operation Glass Pyre (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7666958#msg7666958) (1): Chiefwaffles
EDIT: Sidenote - the new missiles actually really help our prospects if we ever redo the TAV. Hell, our missiles basically do everything the TAV tried to, but without a UI and for UFOs instead of ground troopers. Identify and detect potential targets through numerous sensors and advanced computing.
Given our TAV experience with the design, I wouldn't be surprised if we can redo the TAV in a Normal revision. Just "Use our alien computing experience to miniaturize missile electronics then stick into consumer AR headset/the currently-useless 'empty' TAV headset".
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Hm, I like plans that use all VP, EP and UP. Efficient use of resources is important.
Happerry's Interception Plan : (1) Happerry
Plan try to cover all of them : (0)
Mass Interception (0):
Operation Glass Pyre (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7666958#msg7666958) (2): Chiefwaffles, Strongpoint
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Happerry's Interception Plan : (1) Happerry
Plan try to cover all of them : (0)
Mass Interception (0):
Operation Glass Pyre (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7666958#msg7666958) (3): Chiefwaffles, Strongpoint, Madman
This plan works for me, I suppose. I was just thinking yesterday about the possibility of developing a general "pacification" mission type, wherein we send in agents to root out both traitors and generally do hearts-and-minds work. Of course, that does require the Aliens to cooperate quite a bit, or it'd have to be a hanger-on to other mission types ("After the battle, also do this").
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This plan works for me, I suppose. I was just thinking yesterday about the possibility of developing a general "pacification" mission type, wherein we send in agents to root out both traitors and generally do hearts-and-minds work. Of course, that does require the Aliens to cooperate quite a bit, or it'd have to be a hanger-on to other mission types ("After the battle, also do this").
Personally, I don't see why, if we make an 'Sweep for Exalt Cells and Other Naughty Spies' Mission type we have to wait for an alien to go someplace before we can use it there. Surely we could just go 'and send a skyranger to canada because we think it has an enemy infestation.'
Happerry's Interception Plan : (0)
Plan try to cover all of them : (0)
Mass Interception (0):
Operation Glass Pyre (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7666958#msg7666958) (4): Chiefwaffles, Strongpoint, Madman, Happerry
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The thing is, we have to have the manpower and transport capacity to spare, which requires the enemy to be considerate and not run too many missions or use too many good UFOs. Or perhaps we see if we can make it a non-time-dependent mission (i.e., so moving between continents doesn't require a Skyranger) and deploy (Hopefully reliable) specops from other countries (As in, use NA ICTs in SA, EU ICTs in Africa, etc.) to save ourselves the transport costs?
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If we write the mission so that it's just detection whenever actual solid opposition arises, I don't see why we can't drop an Agency team on it. If it's just some CEO who got replaced by a Hybrid an Agency team can probably handle it, and if they turn up an alien base or something, it'd be worth dropping some Skyrangers on anyway, right?
I still think we'll need to go ahead and try the base building design action again next design phase to get more points, but now that we have equipment tokens it should probably be rewriten to run off an Elerium Reactor to give us exp in alien power sources or something like that.
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Ooor we could upgrade our main base with alien technology.
We have experience in alien computing, power sources, we have really good missile tracking that could be applied to the base's sensors (allowing for much more versatile UFO trakcing), we have railguns that could be used for base defense cannons, and much more. We can easily reason for a ton of improvements in areas like VP/EP - "the new alien power source is of great use to engineering, and the computing parts allow for computers to aid much more of the engineering process." Things like that. We could use the unit experience token to create better instructors for units, perhaps getting more UP. Lots better defenses, better UFO tracking, etc...
And it'd all be relatively easy. We have experience in nearly all of the stuff and a ton of unused tokens. A ton of widespread bonuses, while avoiding a lot of logistical challenge of entirely new bases.
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I''d prefer a second base so that if we roll like crap, our use of base defenses this turn to bring down a UFO doesn't lead to a base assault taking out our only base. But yah, we've got some good upgrade options.
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So, something like this might very well be worthwhile.
XCOM Main Base Upgrade
Having acquired a substantial amount of knowledge concerning alien tech and operation methods, our main base is to be on the receiving end of a massive upgrade program. First of all, the air-to-ground defenses are upgraded to include a mix of upsized railguns, HARMs, and a set of ballistic missile interceptor missiles capable of engaging targets from much longer range, so that hostile forces can be intercepted without revealing the precise location of the base. Our experience with alien computers and Elerium is used to improve the construction facilities for equipment and aircraft. An Alien Equipment Token is used in retooling the lab for better analysis and use of alien technology, while a Unit Experience Token is spent improving the training facilities so that our units are better prepared to fight aliens.
2 1 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Alien Nav Computer token, 1 Unit experience Token
Still leaves 2 tokens, and we could still spend the Nav Comp to further improve the construction facilities.
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Ooor we could upgrade our main base with alien technology.
Upgrading our main base is something that looks a promising way to dump many tokens. Great idea here.
I am still thinking about new aircraft, preferably cheap. With better missiles we don't have to rush to better fighter but our doctrine would benefit from a ground attack aircraft.
Colibri (2 alien equipment tokens)
Colibri is a light one engine aircraft based on COIN concept. It is closer to WW2 fighter in its mentality and design philosophy than to modern missile using fighters like Raven. It is small, it is nimble, it combines supersoic capability with very low stall speed. It's main armament is a Phoenix derived railgun going from the tail to the nose. It's secondary armament is two wing mounted 20mm automatic cannons coming with HEAP bullets boosted with small amounts of elerium to make them more explosive (1 alien equipment token). Additionally it can carry two standard missiles (SMART or Rocklslide) on it's wingtips. Colibri is equipped with a complex target recognition system that is derived from lessons learned during TAV project. Front side of the aircraft is reinforced with a new anti-plasma armor (captured alien pistols were used to test effectiveness of armor). Armor should handle known and theorized enemy infantry equipment. While created with ground support in mind, Colibri is a capable dogfigher.
This thing should kill enemy light UFOs one on one. It is great escort for Skyrangers going to landed UFOs. It is an answer for potential further anti-missile designs from enemy (like point defense systems), against bigger\better armored UFOs (railgun with a high punch), against small flying drones (more nimble than Raven in close fight vs those). It is a good target for potential VP token(s), it shouldn't go obsolete when we'll get a replacment for Raven. It works well in pair with Raven (Raven fires missiles, Colibri proceeds with attack in close range)
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Plan Tilting-At-Windmills
Production/Logistics
2 Ravens (4 VP)
3 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix (2 VP; 1 EP)
3 NOTSOFTER Squads w/ XH-2 Rifles (3 UP; 3 EP)
Interception: Bogey 015 (Mexico, Flying)
1 Raven
Ignore: Bogey 018 (Brazil, Flying)
Interception: Bogey 016 (France, Flying)
1 Raven
Combined Arms: Bogey 017 (Japan, Landed)
1 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix
1 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-2 Rifles
Combined Arms: Bogey 014 (Egypt, Landed)
2 Skyranger w/ Phoenix
2 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-2 Rifles
I know its pointless to vote against the bandwagon when it gets going, but I'm going for this anyway. Changes as such: ignore the Brazil Medium UFO and get that Raven to intercept the France one instead. I'm absolutely against revealing our base at this time, when given our luck we'll probably roll a one on designing defenses for it and we have no backup bases, meaning game over (also they could just keep slamming our base with missions every turn, because why not). I don't understand why you're all so confident one Raven can win against a Medium UFO, when we know the Raven can't beat their upgraded fighter one-to-one. If anything this UFO may be more heavily armed and armoured than a fighter.
The other change is to shift the ground forces to 2 in Egypt and 1 in Japan. I'm betting the Egypt mission is more important to them based on the silver containers. If Japan has decided to tackle the aliens with local forces, let them. They'll only soften up the aliens for our troops to win. Also the Egypt mission has those mimic octopuses, which are going to be just as effective as they were last turn when they ripped through two of our three squads.
The other option which no one seems to have considered yet is that the Japan human groups are part of a third party, who hopes to beat the aliens before us and claim their spoils. In which case I would advise sending all 3 squads there or none, in case it turns into a three-way battle.
Happerry's Interception Plan : (0)
Plan try to cover all of them : (0)
Mass Interception (0):
Operation Glass Pyre (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7666958#msg7666958) (4): Chiefwaffles, Strongpoint, Madman, Happerry
Plan Tilting-At-Windmills (1): Cnidaros
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when given our luck we'll probably roll a one on designing defenses for it and we have no backup bases
Reverse gambler's fallacy at its best
I don't understand why you're all so confident one Raven can win against a Medium UFO, when we know the Raven can't beat their upgraded fighter one-to-one.
"Can" here is like 30-40% chance to win(by my evaluation).
But we must send a fighter to Brazil for information not to win the fight. We need to know what their medium UFO looks like. Should we ignore it we'll know nothing about it and will be unable to adjust our strategy. Also, Medium UFO can be weaker than the fighter if it is not combat focused.
Also, there are a difference between "Dear Brazilian government, we did what we could, sadly our heroic pilot failed" and "dear Brazilian government we don't care about you and ignore mission sent to you... for the second time. Japan is a richer country, you know?"
The other change is to shift the ground forces to 2 in Egypt and 1 in Japan. I'm betting the Egypt mission is more important to them based on the silver containers. If Japan has decided to tackle the aliens with local forces, let them. They'll only soften up the aliens for our troops to win. Also the Egypt mission has those mimic octopuses, which are going to be just as effective as they were last turn when they ripped through two of our three squads.
With this I can agree. Egypt will be hard with only one NOTSOFTER. On other hand, Japan is a very strange situations and I prefer to win in this strange situation.
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Battle Phase
Interception: Bogey 015 (Mexico, Flying)
1 Raven
The new Rockslide missiles are universally approved of by our pilots, and it's not hard to recognize why. A single volley easily outwits the enemy ECM and a last minute dodging, turning their UFO into falling debris.
Interception: Bogey 018 (Brazil, Flying)
1 Raven
With some hesitance, a single Raven sets of to fight the enemies newest, most powerful craft. Approaching slowly, the Raven fighter creeps towards it's target, only to find nothing more than a single small UFO, which is downed easily by a volley of Rock slide missiles.
Research and Development has 3 hypothesizes. Either the true ship is invisible, or the enemies ECM deliberately put a powerful signature as a distraction.
Interception: Bogey 016 (France, Flying)
Base Defenses
The enemy UFO has barely entered the atmosphere, when a flurry of missiles streaks towards it. Not long thereafter, the base defenses record their first kill. Fear exists that it may only be the first of many.
Combined Arms: Bogey 017 (Japan, Landed)
2 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix
2 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-2 Rifles
Our forces are too late. Not to safe the civilians of course, most of those are fine. No, they're too late to take part in any combat. The UFO is still there, with a gaping gash in it's side. But there's no sign of any aliens, nor, for that matter any of the armed humans you've seen before.
There's blood in the streets, and bullet holes throughout the town. But there's no corpses, no wounded, nothing to identify who this was or why they were here.
Still, it nets you 1 partially intact UFO. The Navigation systems appear to have been torn out, which appears to have caused the engines to overload, but the power core is still there, softly humming away.
Mission succes? : 1 UFO power Core Token, 1 Alien Alloy Token
Combined Arms: Bogey 014 (Egypt, Landed)
1 Skyranger w/ Phoenix
1 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-2 Rifles
The enemy appears to be finishing things up by the time we arrive on the site. With howling engines our lone Skyranger drops down towards the town. Plasma reaches out to meet it, with a near miss scorching the hull as the pilot makes evasive maneuvers. Forced to back of for the moment, the Skyranger sets down among the dunes on the outskirts of the town.
Taking full advantage our weapon's superior range, our troops send railgun shot after railgun shot through the building. The enemy weapons are relatively short ranged, our forces know that if they can keep distance, we can pick them of one by one. At first, the strategy appears to work fine, our troops picking of sectoid after sectoid. Victory appears within grasp.
And then suddenly, it's over. Two dead bodies turn out not to be quite as dead as expected, the formerly camouflaged aliens suddenly lunging towards our forces. Another drops out of the ceiling, holding plasma pistols in it's tentacles.
It's a perfect ambush, in fact, too perfect. Our tactic department swears that the enemy is somehow "cheating", that they know what our forces are up to.
Mission Failed
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
4 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Alien Nav Computer token, 1 Unit experience Token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Design Phase
Turn 6
AABBCCDD
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It seems they're either using invisible recon (unlikely) or have some sorts of psionics like in new UFO which allow them to see more. And I think the Japan-craft might be a ploy to determine the location of our base.
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Okay.
We found Exalt.
Let’s heavily consider revising a mission type to hunt out their cells. Because if there anything like the game version, they’re going to have some tasty genetics and psionics tech. Both of which would be really nice.
As for other actions, I say fixing the TAV and/or base stuff. Getting better base defenses wouldn’t be the worst idea too.
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It looks like a kinda meh turn. On one hand we prevented most of their missions, on other hand we both had one successful mission to get tokens. It looks like a draw\minor defeat.
With UFO power core and alloys we can go for a quite kick ass fighter. Remaking TAV isn't something I like unless I'll see a way to use few tokens on it.
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I'll write up a new TAV version, which also implements ceramic armor for our soldiers. Even if it's costly EP-wise, we're going to need it. Also, I draw attention to this option to prevent further there's-so-many-we-need-more-points fiascos:
XCOM Main Base Upgrade
Having acquired a substantial amount of knowledge concerning alien tech and operation methods, our main base is to be on the receiving end of a massive upgrade program. First of all, the air-to-ground defenses are upgraded to include a mix of upsized railguns, linked to an elerium power core made using our Power Core Token, HARMs, and a set of ballistic missile interceptor missiles capable of engaging targets from much longer range, so that hostile forces can be intercepted without revealing the precise location of the base. Our experience with alien computers and elerium is used to improve the construction facilities for equipment and aircraft. An Alien Equipment Token and an Alien Alloy token are used in retooling the lab for better analysis and use or reproduction of alien technology, allowing us to greatly expand our ability to produce alien tech and alien tech-based items. A Unit Experience Token is spent improving the training facilities so that our units are better prepared to fight aliens. A set of simple (yet strong) cells are added (if we don't have them already), to hold any captured aliens or humans. The cells are atmospherically sealed and, if anything strange is suspected to be going on, the air can be rapidly pumped out to kill anything inside them.
2 1 Alien Equipment Token, 1 UFO Power Core Token, 1 Alien Alloy Token, 1 Unit experience Token
EDIT: Updated to make use of new tokens and be less nebulous.
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Alpha X(1 alien equipment token, 1 UFO power core token, 1 alien alloy token, 1 unit experience token
Alpha X is the newest combat vehicle. It is a small tracked drone controlled by the most complex combat AI developed by humanity. Many elements of a failed TAV project are integrated during the development of the tank. It has not only a broad suite of sensors but can give radio, audio and visual signals to inform nearby allies about presence of the enemies. It is powered by a revolutionary electric engine derived from alien concepts (UFO power Core Token) It is armed with phoenix turret that can elevate high enough to target aerial targets, including low flying UFOs. It is armored by anti-plasma alloy developed by testing numerous new materials against captured plasma pistols (1 alien alloy token, 1 unit experience token). Combat AI is developed by the best AI specialists in the world in a close cooperation with NOTSOFTER veterans that shared everything they know about tactics of enemy. (1 unit experience token)
It is armored, it is immune to psionics, it can see hidden units, it has a gun to punch through any armor they may field in nearby future.
-
I’m wondering we should design a new/upgraded base, and revise a fixed TAV.
I think I mentioned this earlier but the new missiles should be immensely helpful. They’re basically just the TAB in missile form. We essentially just have to slap on a display.
-
I’m wondering we should design a new/upgraded base, and revise a fixed TAV.
I think I mentioned this earlier but the new missiles should be immensely helpful. They’re basically just the TAB in missile form. We essentially just have to slap on a display.
That's my general idea, Chief. TAV *should* require just a revision now.
\We essentially just have to slap on a display.
Thank you for that comment, because I am now imagining soldiers wearing a missile for a backpack, staring over their shoulders at displays on the missiles.
-
Why not just replace our soldiers with the vastly superior rockslide missiles?
Though your post prior to mine doesn't really make it seem you think so. A revision which fixes the TAV while also implementing ceramic armor seems vastly out of scope.
Anyways, I like the idea of a base upgrade but I have some different priorities. I apologize for the similar name to the existing upgrade proposal, but there's only so many ways to call a base upgrade design.
Design: XCOM Base Overhaul
1 Alien Power Core Token
Instead of trying to work out the many logistical capabilities of constructing or organizing an entirely new XCOM outpost in a new part of the world all in complete secrecy, let's upgrade our main base.
The first, main, and most obvious improvement is the new Elerium Generator, based off of the alien UFO power core and our other experience with elerium (e.g. railguns). This generator lies underneath our base, providing more than enough power for whatever we need. We anticipate engineering (and to a lesser extent, general R&D) to be extremely happy that they'll be able to use as many tools and equipment and expansions to their workshops as they want without causing a base-wide brownout again.
We've also equipped engineering with alien alloy components - the same type of thing we did with the XH-2. Alien alloy components in machinery should greatly increase their lifespan, decrease maintenance costs, and even increase operation speeds as machinery can work faster without overheating or malfunctioning.
Production capacity of all kinds should hopefully go way up thanks to these improvements, and the elerium generator should both pave the way for future power generation technology (being able to work on the scale of a base reactor instead of, say, a rifle-sized reactor, really helps R&D) and "future-proof" our base for anything else that requires power.
Base defenses are improved as well. New overcompensating drastically upscaled railguns are put into place in positions that allow them to be raised out of the ground in case of incoming alien forces, with our new power supply being more than able to keep them running constantly.
Rockslide technology is being integrated into our base in two ways, as well.
The first way is clear - improving our G2A missiles to use Rockslide tech and thus increasing accuracy and effectivenesss.
The second thing we're doing with Rockslide is integrating it into our [radar/sensor arrays/whatever it is that we use to detect UFOs] in order to vastly improve UFO detection and recognition capabilities. We hope to be able to see through ECM, get better advanced warning on incoming alien craft, get more detailed readouts on new UFO types, and more. This is done by embedding the Rockslide recognition technology to use the data from our sensors, allowing it to single out UFOs that would normally be dismissed as background radiation and give us better details on existing sensor signatures.
TL;DR: Alien power source to future-proof base for future power needs and to help engineering; use of alien alloy components (exactly like the kind of stuff we did with the XH-2) to improve engineering machinery, defense railguns, and integrating Rockslide into our G2A missiles and radar tech (being able to single out UFOs earlier and give us more details on the things it does detect thanks to enhanced automated recognition that Rockslide provides).
If anyone has good ideas for how to use an alien equipment token in a base upgrade, lemme know.
I don't like "retooling the lab for better analysis and use of alien technology" as a use for it since I fail to see what that'll get us. I fully, 100%, doubt that Ebbor will give us anything silly like decreased difficulty for all reverse engineering or anything widespread benefiting our design & revision actions. That's just far too OP.
XCOM Main Base Upgrade (0):
Alpha X (0):
XCOM Base Overhaul (1): Chiefwaffles
-
XCOM Main Base Upgrade (1): Madman
Alpha X (0):
XCOM Base Overhaul (1): Chiefwaffles
Updated the design to make better use of the newer tokens, and be much less nebulous about what the tokens are all being used for. I think. Maybe. Probably.
-
I really dislike the use of the alien equipment and alloy token in the Main Base Upgrade. Feels like a waste.
We should save the Alien Alloy token for making proper alloy-based armor. That and the thing it and the equipment token are used for is, as I've said, going to be downright useless. Ebbor's not going to let us just get a "+1 to all future actions involving alien tech" or anything of the sort.
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I really dislike the use of the alien equipment and alloy token in the Main Base Upgrade. Feels like a waste.
We should save the Alien Alloy token for making proper alloy-based armor. That and the thing it and the equipment token are used for is, as I've said, going to be downright useless. Ebbor's not going to let us just get a "+1 to all future actions involving alien tech" or anything of the sort.
Please read again?
It's specifically for *designing and producing* alien tech, as in, "more EP please".
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Equipment Token and an Alien Alloy token are used in retooling the lab for better analysis and use of alien technology, allowing us to greatly expand our ability to produce and invent alien tech and alien tech-based items.
I fail to see how the bolded parts indicate that. And even the rest seem to have EP/VP as an afterthought that has to be clarified. I don't see how our lab being better at analyzing alien tech or us being more able to invent new stuff has anything to do with the (relative) mass production of expensive items.
Besides, I still really think the alien alloy token needs to be preserved for proper armor.
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I feel like I should point out I was correct that the Egypt mission would not be a success. Also, if anything that mission practically screams "the aliens have got psionics now", so we should really get to producing some way to capture them to study psionics.
While I want to do a ground combat design this turn to make up for the TAV, it is absolutely paramount that we improve our base defense now. Between the two base upgrades proposed, I'm more inclined to side with Madman's one which uses more tokens. Once again, a reminder that hoarding tokens doesn't do anything, and the list of <important things I want to design with this token> is likely going to be endless, and secondary to <something we urgently need this coming turn>. I see no reason why we shouldn't use tokens en masse.
That said, I agree with Chiefwaffles that the alien alloy token is not well used. Perhaps write it into making alien alloy protection for our new Elerium Reactor? Also we don't have a Nav Computer Token, it was used for the failed TAV. Right now we have 2 Alien Equipment tokens, 1 Alien Alloy Token, 1 Power Core Token and 1 Unit Experience Token.
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I changed it again to be a bit clearer. The reason I want to use that alien alloy token is because most things we do are going to use alien alloys, and understanding them enough to mass-produce (Well, sort of) them will be incredibly beneficial for everything we do with them, simply because costing less EP is not only good, but necessary.
-
If we want to capture aliens, we should add an alien containment facility to the base upgrade actions so we can actually hold them properly. Also might want to look into Electro-Lasers so we don't have to go into melee to stun enemies sometime soon.
Edit : Also, I really think we need to get another base soon after we fired off our base defenses. We don't want to start an interception phase turn with our base being invaded when we still don't have any back ups....
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IMO, You guys shouldn't add zero votes things to the votebox. If I offer some concept it doesn't necessary mean I'll vote for it. I think votebox should be expanded when someone adds a vote.
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I think both proposed base upgrades are too broad and feauture overloaded. I believe that our key priority is an ability to field more fighters by either getting more VP or cheaper fighter design
Hephaestus (alien equipment, UFO core, alien alloys)
Hephaestus is a highly automated production facility unlike any other on the Earth. It is powered by UFO core allowing great power output for powering innovative plasma-based furnaces (repurporsed technology found in alien plasma pistols) used to produce various alloys in a more effective and efficient ways than any other Earth-based technology. Set of automated tools made with use of advanced materials allow shaping, cutting, wielding of metal parts allowing rapid production of metal parts needed for aircrafts and infantry equipment
I still think that cheap fighter\drone is what we need to do now. Few more VP are nice but ability to send half of a raven in situations like one during the last turn give us more flexibility while improving overall strength of our airforce.
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^while I also want more/better/cheaper fighters to deal with wide-spread situations such as this turn, I believe we urgently need to upgrade our base defense now, since we've sent up a giant fiery sign saying "OUR BASE IS HERE" to the aliens.
XCOM Main Base Upgrade (2): Madman, Cnidaros
Alpha X (0):
XCOM Base Overhaul (1): Chiefwaffles
Madman, could you add an alien containment section to the base upgrade as well? It doesn't have to be fancy, just "a set of cells to hold captured aliens".
-
I mean, I'd think that's not the sort of thing that has to be mentioned, but it's hardly going to add to the difficulty. It just turns it into an even-longer laundry list proposal.
-
I still really dislike the usage of the Alien Alloys token in the base design. I think it's completely irrelevant, and really hurts us in the future.
An Alien Alloys token should definitely be used for actual armor. I really hate the idea of "spending tokens just to spend tokens." We should spend them when they're relevant, help us, and can't be used for something better in the immediate future. The idea to use an Alloys token on the Main Base Upgrade design fails all three of this. It makes no sense - it's just throwing tokens at the design with minimal justification in a vain hope that it'll make the design easier.
Tokens just make relevant things easier. How will "we use an alien alloy token to upgrade R&D and engineering [in some nebulous way]" make this easier? How is it worth more than using it to develop proper armor?
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But it's being used to specifically improve our production capabilities. That is an immediate boost, AND it gets us the experience from the token (Not the same magnitude of bonus, of course, but I judge it to be good enough when combined with production boosts), AND it allows us to deploy any armor we may create. Speaking of which, right now our best bet is ceramics of some kind, and we need only a revision to utilize ceramic materials that already exist.
-
I highly doubt that ceramics would hold a candle up to alloy armoring. Especially given how much this AR has been adhering to XCOM2012, even to the point of including EXALT.
It doesn't get us experience from the token. It gets us zero relevant experience towards alloy armoring. We already spent an alloy token on including alloy parts in our railguns. We know how it works. We know how to use alloys.
That and the way it's being used in your design makes it useless. Again, throwing tokens at designs doesn't magically enhance the design. It just gives us a bonus to the difficulty of anything it's relevant too. Your use of the token sounds like an extremely stretched way of uselessly trying to get a bonus from an irrelevant token.
Cnidaros, what's your problem with the XCOM Base Overhaul? It also specifically upgrades base defense, it's more focused than Madman's Base Upgrade, and it doesn't improperly use an alien alloy token.
-
While I still wish the base overhaul added an alien containment facility, I'm in agreement with Chiefwaffles on the issue of token use(lessness), so will be voting for his description.
XCOM Main Base Upgrade (2): Madman, Cnidaros
Alpha X (0):
XCOM Base Overhaul (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
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Cnidaros, what's your problem with the XCOM Base Overhaul? It also specifically upgrades base defense, it's more focused than Madman's Base Upgrade, and it doesn't improperly use an alien alloy token.
Your base overhaul also includes "equipping engineering with alien alloy components, which sounds exactly like what Madman is doing, except without the alien alloy token to make it more successful.
Again, I feel like this is a fundamental difference in how we view tokens. Are you going to vote for alien alloy armour in this turn's revision? If no, why not use the token now and wait to get another token next turn, or the turn after? The way Madman is using token seems to me to also make producing alien alloy armour easier in the future.
I believe that we should use tokens as much as possible to make our designs more successful so we can win and gain more tokens. Not spread them out among designs one by one toward the design that is most obviously suited for a token. Our 'to-do' list for tokens will always be excessively long and take a backseat to what we need urgently in the next turn, so why not use those tokens immediately?
TLDR: Either write up an alien alloy armour design now and vote for it, or wait for the next few turns to get another AA token and do it then (which is more likely if we use the tokens we have NOW). Don't bank all these tokens for "next turn", because next turn we'll need something urgently again.
-
Sheesh.
We can’t and shouldn’t rely on getting tokens at certain times because we can’t predict that. This is our second alloy token ever. And we shouldn’t only ever design reactively.
I fully plan on an alien alloy armor design next turn. It can help air or soldiers immensely and unless the aliens do something totally out of left field (which happens, but it is an insanely bad idea to plan that it’ll happen every turn because then you’ll only ever be designing reactively. Which is really bad.) But it practically requires an alien alloy token.
Whereas Madman’s use of the token is the closest possible thing you can get to throwing it away.
You know what my design does? It uses our exact existing experience with alien alloys - using it to create more reliable parts - to do something that will much more concretely help engineering. Madman’s design just says “i dunno just use a token to make engineering betterer”
And if you forgot, Ebbor confirmed a while back that it’s fine to use existing experience without relevant tokens. Making super-reliable alien alloy parts is exactly what we did before. Making full-blown armor is not.
-
XCOM Main Base Upgrade (2): Madman, Cnidaros
XCOM Base Overhaul (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, strongpoint
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Whereas Madman’s use of the token is the closest possible thing you can get to throwing it away.
You know what my design does? It uses our exact existing experience with alien alloys - using it to create more reliable parts - to do something that will much more concretely help engineering. Madman’s design just says “i dunno just use a token to make engineering betterer”
Sheesh indeed.
Little bit of civility, please? A decrease in bias would also be welcome.
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I am in the - "use your tokens as soon as possible" camp but I hate generic "improve everything" kind of designs. I would very much prefer to go for one thing (industry) but industry + base defense is a lesser evil for me.
I think designs should be planned like - "we have those tokens, what useful things we can do using them?" not "I want X project are there any tokens that fit it perfectly?"
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I fail to see how any of what you just said is relevant to either design. My base design includes defenses (Railguns, longer-ranged missiles, HARMs), makes good use of the power core token (Making a power system for the defenses), and the rest of it is "build things in greater numbers, using our alien tech". Using regular human tech to build things better/build more things doesn't make sense, because we're already at the cutting edge of human technology. So we use alien equipment to make advanced tech.
Also, as a general rule, working metals requires something of similar toughness. If you hammer iron, even hot iron, with a copper hammer, you're mainly going to distort your hammer. Remaking tools and equipment out of alien alloy/with an understanding of the alloy's properties will allow us to better manipulate the stuff, hopefully allowing us to improve our production capabilities.
-
Working Metal by regular forging is outdated. Magnets can shear apart metal plates without even touching the plates themselves, nevermind Arc Furnaces, Press Plates, etc. Yes, using alien materials for tools will help, but focussing hte presumably high-end materials that represent the cream-of-the-crop alloys that a token represents. We are still harvesting entire UFO's worth of alloys, its just that those alloys are presumably useless for the vast majority of what we would use a token for (Guns, Vehicles, etc.) I'd imagine that as time goes by, we re incorporating less immediately useful or harder to work alloys into our industrial equipment as time goes by.
XCOM Main Base Upgrade (2): Madman, Cnidaros
Alpha X (0):
XCOM Base Overhaul (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Blood_librarian
Sometimes I feel like I lose all opinion of these things.
EDIT: Posting a possible Revision centered around the UEO (Unidentified Enemy Object)
Those little yellow boxes, they contain only grey ash, but what if we can prevent them from self-destructing? I think we should try and recover them.
REVISION: UED Detonation Prevention
1.Create a mechanical tool with an electrode on the end, designed to be slotted into a UED and prevent its self-destruct.
2.Modify the equivalent of a military Wireless Communications system to function for a mission run, designed to emulate a certain aspect of the UFO's "idle" state on the ground, targetted at the UEO, to hopefully slow down its detonation.
3. Test these objects on recovered units (detonated ones recovered in the field).
The Dust contained within these objects are simply... fascinating. Even in their grey, ashen state, we have made several groundbreaking creations in various fields, but what if there is more? We cannot progress any further with the disintegrated remains and to that end experimentation into the theoretical recovery of the contents of UEDs. Namely, a mechanical release has been found, and when applied with both force and an electrical shock from a specialized tool that we have replicated, it is possible to manually remove its contents from the container and the self-destruct mechanism, allowing recovery of the Ashy Dusty contents, hopefully before it detonates..
Secondly, we have made several theories on the state of the cause of self-destruction. To that end, we have modified a standard Radio-emission system along with an absurdly expensive computer to be able to rudimentarily reproduce a local UFO's local broadcast signal to the UED. We believe this will delay the self-destruct mechanism, as the radio emissions of the UFO subtly change when XCOM forces are present, and we believe this signal is what causes the detonation of the UED.
-
Design: XCOM Base Overhaul
1 Alien Power Core Token
Instead of trying to work out the many logistical capabilities of constructing or organizing an entirely new XCOM outpost in a new part of the world all in complete secrecy, let's upgrade our main base.
The first, main, and most obvious improvement is the new Elerium Generator, based off of the alien UFO power core and our other experience with elerium (e.g. railguns). This generator lies underneath our base, providing more than enough power for whatever we need. We anticipate engineering (and to a lesser extent, general R&D) to be extremely happy that they'll be able to use as many tools and equipment and expansions to their workshops as they want without causing a base-wide brownout again.
We've also equipped engineering with alien alloy components - the same type of thing we did with the XH-2. Alien alloy components in machinery should greatly increase their lifespan, decrease maintenance costs, and even increase operation speeds as machinery can work faster without overheating or malfunctioning.
Production capacity of all kinds should hopefully go way up thanks to these improvements, and the elerium generator should both pave the way for future power generation technology (being able to work on the scale of a base reactor instead of, say, a rifle-sized reactor, really helps R&D) and "future-proof" our base for anything else that requires power.
Base defenses are improved as well. New overcompensating drastically upscaled railguns are put into place in positions that allow them to be raised out of the ground in case of incoming alien forces, with our new power supply being more than able to keep them running constantly.
Rockslide technology is being integrated into our base in two ways, as well.
The first way is clear - improving our G2A missiles to use Rockslide tech and thus increasing accuracy and effectivenesss.
The second thing we're doing with Rockslide is integrating it into our [radar/sensor arrays/whatever it is that we use to detect UFOs] in order to vastly improve UFO detection and recognition capabilities. We hope to be able to see through ECM, get better advanced warning on incoming alien craft, get more detailed readouts on new UFO types, and more. This is done by embedding the Rockslide recognition technology to use the data from our sensors, allowing it to single out UFOs that would normally be dismissed as background radiation and give us better details on existing sensor signatures.
Hard : 1 + 4 -1 = 4 (Below Average)
Deep underground, on the lowest levels of XCOM HQ, the captured UFO power core is slowly fitted into it's specially designed cradle. Humming softly, the salvaged generates is slowly brought to full power. On another part of the island, large gas turbines fall silent one by one as the load is transferred. They'll not be needed unless the core failed, or the base finds itself under attack.
Culprits of that are the three large railgun turrets, and their superconductor capacitors. Capable of projecting massive slugs at extreme velocity, these large weapons provide a powerful punch to the base defenses, in addition to their already powerful missile weaponry. Until their times comes however they remain unpowered and hidden underground.
Other improvements have also filtered back into the base. The radar systems have been equipped with Rockslide heuristics, though the system's tendency for occasional false alerts has rendered it somewhat unpopular with it's operators. The heuristic was intended for use on already discovered and targeted UFO's, without something to look for it's a lot more fickle. Even so, it should help identify craft.
Lastly, there's the results of unleashing production and research from their tight energy budgets. The first result was the reinstating of those energy budgets, after a few worryingly energetic proposals. Nonetheless, production has picked up somewhat, with machinery working harder and the occassional alien alloy replacement part keeping everything going.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
4+1 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 Alien alloy token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Revision Phase
Turn 6
AABBCCDD
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6 VP
3 UP
4+1 EP
Isn't it
6+1 VP
3 UP
4EP
?
I don't remember us getting equipment tokens
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Alien Nav Computer token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 Alien alloy token
Didn't we spend Alien Nav Computer on the last turn design?
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It's not an equipment token, it's the bonus from your base improvement.
Didn't we spend Alien Nav Computer on the last turn design?
Oh right. Let met fix that.
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So this design gave us no VP to have a better ability to counter multiple missions. This is a problem. Our typical setup of 2 Ravens + 3 skyrangers has many flaws if enemy goes for more than one mission.
I think we need a revision that tries to reduce cost of Ravens (at least to 1.5 VP) or revising Inter agency teams to make them a viable alternative to NOTSOFTER.
New use for EP can be useful, but I am afraid it won't do much to our ability to answer many missions
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Our current "ideal" setup is
2xRavens (4VP)
with 2xPhoenixes (1EP)
3xSkyrangers (2VP)
with 3xPhoenixes (1EP)
3xNOTSOFTERs (3UP)
with 3xXH-2s. (3EP)
I dislike it vs anything but one focused mission. TAV, that will be proposed, doesn't help much in case if they'll repeat their last turn strategy (or worse, go for 3 directions with mid-sized groups). I am not willing to gamble on them going for one thing this time.
Raven-b (alien alloy token, alien equipment token)
Raven-b is a modification of Raven aimed at reducing both weight and complexity of the aircraft. Large chunk of it's original electronics are replaced with less complex but no less effective systems derived from experience gained during TAV and Rockslide projects. It's airframe is thinner, benefiting from sturdy and lightweight materials that share many similarities of materials used in production of UFOs and while it requires some advanced materials, need for rarer Earth based materials is greatly reduced. Even fuel tanks of the Raven-b is smaller. This is achieved by developing new fuel with elerium additives, same explosive thing that gives deadly punch to enemy grenades can be used to improve fuel density. Lower weight allows usage of easier to produce and maintain engines that can provide same speed, maneuverability, range, and payload.
Tl;dr - use tokens to make Raven cheaper.
If we'll be able to get at least one additional Raven per turn, this will be a great revision with an immediate impact. Both technologies gained there are fully usable for the next generation fighter. Next turn we can go for either a new unit (unit experience token shouldn't la doing nothing) or EP expensive equipment for infantry like body armor or tank
I still think that using unit experience token to upgrade Inter Agency Cooperation team is a way to go (if we did that last turn, we would have easier time covering the globe while, most likely, still shooting down their small UFOs) but that idea seems extremely unpopular so I am not going to write a detailed offer of how to do it.
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Revision: Landslide Missile
1 Alien Equipment Token
The Landslide missile is a modification of the Rockslide to include a new technique based on experience from alien power sources in our railguns and now in our baes.
It’s currently crude and primitive, but by using a basic elerium explosive in our missiles instead of the conventional warhead we can greatly increase destructive power.
TL;DR: Our missiles are super great at hitting; now let’s make them hurt more when they hit. Should be easy since we have lots of experience with the subject matter and a valid token.
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I think If we are doing the above, there are a little reason to not improve both missile and X-COM basic grenades amd SMART waarheads. It is mostly the same thing. Also, I prefer conventional-elaterium mix explosive as our first step in this direction. It sounds cheaper and easier and both are good things in my books.
It is a useful use of token and works with our experience but my problems with the revision above are
1) It relegates Phoenix pods to Skyranger only weapon, not sure it is a good thing
2) They are motivated to try to counter our missiles, something like point defense system can counter it before we field it
3) It doesn't help us to engage multiple targets. Last turn we had excessive amount of firepower, we had no enough ability to reliably cover all targets. Repeat the last turn and this revision does nothing.
4) It doesn't improve aircraft's ability to help in the ground phase of the battle.
5) It makes me salty, we should have added elerium warhead last turn instead of going for a trivial revision with no tokens used
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It is a useful use of token and works with our experience but my problems with the revision above are
1) It relegates Phoenix pods to Skyranger only weapon, not sure it is a good thing
2) They are motivated to try to counter our missiles, something like point defense system can counter it before we field it
3) It doesn't help us to engage multiple targets. Last turn we had excessive amount of firepower, we had no enough ability to reliably cover all targets. Repeat the last turn and this revision does nothing.
4) It doesn't improve aircraft's ability to help in the ground phase of the battle.
5) It makes me salty, we should have added elerium warhead last turn instead of going for a trivial revision with no tokens used
1) No, no it doesn't, why do you think it does???
2) OK, and they can't make a hard counter, and we certainly can't counter it before they field it, and deploying more Ravens isn't going to magically make them more successful, since we only ever send one out per UFO
3) Um, aren't we having serious issues actually downing every UFO?
4) If they kill the UFOs, there will be no ground battle, and we don't often have enough Ravens to be wasted on ground support
5) I really am not concerned with your thoughtless salt, Strongpoint. That revision restored our ability to kill things, meaning it was certainly not wasted, and was indeed a good plan.
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I'm of the opinion that the Rockslide revision was the single most useful revision we have had. It made our missiles go from "sometimes hits things" to "guaranteed kills", radically improved our sensor tech (and the unfinished TAV), and countered their ECM.
Speaking of the TAV:
Revision: TAV2
1 Alien Equipment Token
The TAV2 is, as the name implies, a second "attempt" at the TAV.
Surprisingly, we don't have to do much. The Rockslide system is pretty much what we were aiming for with the original TAV - recognizing and analyzing targets based on sensor data. Just grab a proper display from either the consumer market or the salvaged TAV1 project, take whatever we can salvage from our TAV1 notes, and implement the Rockslide system tuned for smaller entities using the TAV1 experience of alien computing.
The TAV2 is also based more on some salvaged alien tech to both train the Rockslide system and generally cut down on R&D time. Why reinvent the Turbolight Processor for the TAV when the aliens already have a perfectly functioning one waiting for us in their stuff?
Raven-B (0):
Landslide Missile (0):
TAV2 (1): Chiefwaffles
Personally, I think the TAV is really important - right now their Mimics are practically a hard counter to our stuff, and the TAV undoes that. The TAV also gives extra general advantages to our ground teams, experience w/ alien computing, and more. I think our ground teams are due for a buff.
But with that being said, the Landslide missile is an easy yet powerful improvement that further futureproofs our missiles. I wouldn't be surprised if the aliens panic and upgrade their AA capabilities after seeing the Rockslides.
So I'm fine with both. For now I'll vote for the TAV2 but I'm perfectly okay with switching to Landslide.
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1) No, no it doesn't, why do you think it does???
Because it will be plain better, especially if there will be no (less) EP cost. I suspect rockslide is already better but having both gives some useful versatility.
2) OK, and they can't make a hard counter, and we certainly can't counter it before they field it, and deploying more Ravens isn't going to magically make them more successful, since we only ever send one out per UFO
Deploying more of something, makes it more successful. Numeric superiority works.
3) Um, aren't we having serious issues actually downing every UFO?
No. We don't. We have issues with their fighter. We can relatively easily shoot down their unescorted light UFOs.
4)If they kill the UFOs, there will be no ground battle, and we don't often have enough Ravens to be wasted on ground support
How would better missiles help us during the last battle turn? It is likely that they'll repeat this kind of distribution (and avoid Europe this time) or go for 2-3 escorted missions. Our tactical flexibility remains low. Design tried to fix that by getting more VP, no luck, we need something to improve our tactical flexibility.
5) I really am not concerned with your thoughtless salt, Strongpoint. That revision restored our ability to kill things, meaning it was certainly not wasted, and was indeed a good plan.
Thoughtless is a borderline insult, you know? Rockslide is useful long term (I am unsure about short term because there are a good chance that we would shot down that light UFOs anyway) but that revision could be used for other things including better revision of the missile. If some turn had positive effect it doesn't mean that other turns couldn't have better effects. And let's not forget about that 8
radically improved our sensor tech (and the unfinished TAV)
It isn't a result of the wording of the revision. It didn't try to do anything like this. It is a result of a nat crit success. On average roll it would be a harm missile that tries to lock on the signal of ECM with no useful technology for other fields
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1) No, no it doesn't, why do you think it does???
Because it will be plain better, especially if there will be no (less) EP cost. I suspect rockslide is already better but having both gives some useful versatility.
2) OK, and they can't make a hard counter, and we certainly can't counter it before they field it, and deploying more Ravens isn't going to magically make them more successful, since we only ever send one out per UFO
Deploying more of something, makes it more successful. Numeric superiority works.
3) Um, aren't we having serious issues actually downing every UFO?
No. We don't. We have issues with their fighter. We can relatively easily shoot down their unescorted light UFOs.
4)If they kill the UFOs, there will be no ground battle, and we don't often have enough Ravens to be wasted on ground support
How would better missiles help us during the last battle turn? It is likely that they'll repeat this kind of distribution (and avoid Europe this time) or go for 2-3 escorted missions. Our tactical flexibility remains low. Design tried to fix that by getting more VP, no luck, we need something to improve our tactical flexibility.
5) I really am not concerned with your thoughtless salt, Strongpoint. That revision restored our ability to kill things, meaning it was certainly not wasted, and was indeed a good plan.
Thoughtless is a borderline insult, you know? Rockslide is useful long term (I am unsure about short term because there are a good chance that we would shot down that light UFOs anyway) but that revision could be used for other things including better revision of the missile. If some turn had positive effect it doesn't mean that other turns couldn't have better effects. And let's not forget about that 8
radically improved our sensor tech (and the unfinished TAV)
It isn't a result of the wording of the revision. It didn't try to do anything like this. It is a result of a nat crit success. On average roll it would be a harm missile that tries to lock on the signal of ECM with no useful technology for other fields
1) No, no it won't. Missiles have NOT replaced guns in modern air combat because there are always situations where more little killing things is better than one big killing thing. Well, that and they're not always the best at actually tracking targets, and can sometimes be unreliable at close range.
2) No, deploying more of something that doesn't work (Deploying additional single Ravens to hit single UFOs)....continues to not work. I don't think we'll be likely to get a significant enough cost decrease to just swamp every UFO mission that hasn't already landed in UFOs.
3) And now they know that, and they may very well bring something to deal with them. Or they won't. Again, can't predict it, and we've had mediocre results against their light UFOs before as well. So why don't we just take the option that makes every single encounter better for us, instead of only improving the encounters we can send multiple Ravens to?
4) Because certainly dead is much better than only mostly dead?
5) Useful short term, and long term, and every other term, because it is a missile that intends to do more damage without reduction to other qualities. And no, I'm not going to forget about that 8. I am going to be incredibly glad that we used it on something that gave us such wonderful bonuses. I'm going to be even more pleased that we did a revision that didn't fail when we needed it to succeed (Facing enemy ECM like that, with so many UFOs and without the Rockslide, would've been disastrous).
As for thoughtless, yes, that was provocative when it probably didn't need to be. However, you need to let the Rockslide go. It was a good call on us, regardless of the roll that that revision phase had.
Raven-B (0):
Landslide Missile (0):
TAV2 (2): Chiefwaffles, Madman
Let's save the infantry, shall we?
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I am unsure about this part
"Why reinvent the Turbolight Processor for the TAV when the aliens already have a perfectly functioning one waiting for us in their stuff"
It is not like we captured drone parts or something like that. It looks like trying to get a justification for alien equipment token when there are no one.
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I am rather annoyed that alien containment wasn't included in the base upgrade. Now we'll have to spend an extra revision on it when we get around to actually capturing aliens. Which I really want to get to before the real Psi-bullshit starts.
Raven-B (0):
Landslide Missile (0):
TAV2 (3): Chiefwaffles, Madman, Cnidaros
Best to finish off the TAV and forestall more mimic-octopus trickery. I'm not too worried about the air side of things for the moment. We didn't encounter any alien fighters this turn, and got wrecked one-on-one with them the previous turn, but I hope that the Rockslide will at least bring us to parity with their fighter. The most they've ever deployed were 2 fighters and 1 lander, so hopefully our 2 Ravens backed up by 3 Phoenix-Skyrangers can handle it.
But mostly I'm not worried because I'm 99% sure they'll deploy some or all of their force to investigate our base, meaning we can use the improved base defenses.
Also the TAV is good to make use of the EP we just got. Hopefully it's cheap enough that it's 1 EP for 4 instead of 3, for when we get more UP.
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I am rather annoyed that alien containment wasn't included in the base upgrade.
Voted base upgrade tried to do two things > improve defense and industry. It succeeded doing that. Doing three (adding alien containment) or more (training center, research buff, etc) things would have more limited effect for base defenses and\or industry
and got wrecked one-on-one with them the previous turn, but I hope that the Rockslide will at least bring us to parity with their fighter.
That if they did nothing to improve airforce. Also parity with their fighter would be great because their fighter looks more expensive in % of available VP
But mostly I'm not worried because I'm 99% sure they'll deploy some or all of their force to investigate our base, meaning we can use the improved base defenses.
I am 99% sure that they won't do such thing. It is unlikely that they have an assault base kind of mission or willing to spend design action on it. In fact, I expect them to avoid Europe (and maybe Egypt) for many turns.
The most they've ever deployed were 2 fighters and 1 lander
They had successful mission and reward from the competition. I think it is very likely that their max went up
Also the TAV is good to make use of the EP we just got.
I think that EP can be well spent on Phoenix pods.
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Ugh, this is a hard one. We're both in great need of more fighters and better troops. I really want to get a second base out next turn, which hopefully will improve our points and we can built an alien containment into it from the start too, but for now, with this revision action, I think I'm going to have to go for the TAV2. It doesn't matter how many UFOs we shoot down if we can't win on the ground, and it's looking to me like we're going to have to start letting the 'least damaging' ufo missions through sometime soon at this rate. The Raven-B is tempting though...
Which I really want to get to before the real Psi-bullshit starts.
Didn't we already get told in the last few missions it looks like they have a Psi-Scry or Psi-Locate of some sort running? We might want to invest in Tinfoil helmets sometime soon to block their Psi-Scan out or something.
Raven-B (0):
Landslide Missile (0):
TAV2 (4): Chiefwaffles, Madman, Cnidaros, Happerry
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Ugh, this is a hard one. We're both in great need of more fighters and better troops. I really want to get a second base out next turn, which hopefully will improve our points and we can built an alien containment into it from the start too, but for now, with this revision action, I think I'm going to have to go for the TAV2. It doesn't matter how many UFOs we shoot down if we can't win on the ground, and it's looking to me like we're going to have to start letting the 'least damaging' ufo missions through sometime soon at this rate. The Raven-B is tempting though...
Which I really want to get to before the real Psi-bullshit starts.
Didn't we already get told in the last few missions it looks like they have a Psi-Scry or Psi-Locate of some sort running? We might want to invest in Tinfoil helmets sometime soon to block their Psi-Scan out or something.
I would also be amenable to going for a second base design next turn as backup, and to improve our VP. I like the idea of Raven-B, but reducing from 2 to 1 VP is a little ambitious for a revision, while reducing to 1.5 doesn't increase the number of Ravens we can field this turn. But if we were to get +1 or +2 VP for a new base, then that would go well with Raven-B as a good upgrade to our air combat capability, allowing us to field up to 4 Ravens!
Also, yes, some minor psi-bullshitery is already occurring (since the previous turn). It seems to be passive (reading minds to determine our next actions/trooper locations) for now, but I would rather not wait for it to go active (mind controlling our troopers to cause friendly fire) which would make it harder to capture them. I am assuming that we'll need to capture some psionic aliens to get insight as to how Psi works, not just revise a defense without knowing the nature of the attack.
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Always so underwhelming when those tokens get used.
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Drooling stares.
Raven-B (0):
Landslide Missile (0):
TAV2 (5): Chiefwaffles, Madman, Cnidaros, Happerry, BLood_Librarian
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Revision: TAV2
1 Alien Equipment Token
The TAV2 is, as the name implies, a second "attempt" at the TAV.
Surprisingly, we don't have to do much. The Rockslide system is pretty much what we were aiming for with the original TAV - recognizing and analyzing targets based on sensor data. Just grab a proper display from either the consumer market or the salvaged TAV1 project, take whatever we can salvage from our TAV1 notes, and implement the Rockslide system tuned for smaller entities using the TAV1 experience of alien computing.
The TAV2 is also based more on some salvaged alien tech to both train the Rockslide system and generally cut down on R&D time. Why reinvent the Turbolight Processor for the TAV when the aliens already have a perfectly functioning one waiting for us in their stuff?
Hard : 3 + 2 - 1 = 4 Below average (Token used)
At first, the team assigned to this operation was optimistic. Take existing software, apply to an existing platform, and put it onto the soldiers hands. That is, until they had a closer look. The existing software was made to identify grav wave powered UFO's moving at hypersonic velocities through the atmosphere, not stealthy cephalopods. The existing platform has killed several of those who used it. The soldiers, well, those were fine. Professional lads, the bunch of them.
With a bit of luck, the engineering team managed to cobble together a platform that does (roughly) what it's supposed to do. Made largely from cobbled together bits and bobs of alien equipment, it's capable of identifying and targetting aliens. It's also a bit clunky, makeshift and uncomfortable to wear.
UFO Alert
Target: Brazil
Vehicle: 1x Medium UFO?, 1x Alien Fighter
Units present : Sectoids?, Scout Droids?, Skin crawlers?
Altitude : Departing
It appears a major enemy force slipped under our radar. Panicked calls originating from a medium sized town in Brazil point to a major operation. Calls speak of subjects resembling known descriptions of Sectoid, Scout drones, and even Skin crawlers capturing humans and bringing them to their ship. Looks like they brought in the whole circus.
We have managed to pick up the ships now, but they're already taking off. Two signatures, one resembling the bigger alien fighters, the other much bigger, same intensity as that scout we saw before.
Target: Australia
Vehicle: 1x Medium UFO?
Altitude : Reentry
We spotted this one the moment it hit the atmosphere. Another big UFO, heading straight for the Australian outback.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
TAV-2: A cobbled together combat visor that can identify and highlight aliens, including disguised ones. Fragile, cobbled together and decidly unergonomic.
Cost : 1 EP
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
4+1 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 Alien alloy token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Revision Phase
Turn 6
AABBCCDD
[/quote]
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WHOOPS, I FORGOT THE ALIEN INVASION.
PLEASE STAND BY
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There, fixed.
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First thought is to throw one Raven at that lone medium because I'd bet it's another small one faking us out like last turn, and then two Ravens at the two mediums now running away. We'll have to depend on the new TAV and plenty of air support fire to make up for only having a single skyranger if we end up doing that though.
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Having inter agency team usable in Brazil or Australia would be so nice in this situation... Why the hell enemy ignores USA and Europe? :(
Plan massacre
Intercept Brazil
3 ravens (6VP)
-3x Phoenix pods (1EP)
Combined arms Australia
Skyranger (free)
Phoenix pod (1EP)
1 NOTSOFTER (1UP)
1 XH-2 (1EP)
1 TAV2 (1EP)
Alternative is to go for a usual 2+3 setup and ignore Australia.
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Yeah we have no hope of intercepting and taking the big UFO in a ground engagement. So we're best off just going all-in on interception and hoping for the best.
They definitely have a medium lander now, as that's the only thing that explains being able to carry that many aliens with only a fighter escort. So it's probably not as dangerous as its size would indicate, but is still most likely substantially more dangerous than an alien craft.
But I'm hopeful for our Ravens. Using just Rockslide missiles they very easily down small landers and we have them equipped with Phoenix pods and will be going 3-2.
Being able to successfully down the alien craft over Australia with a Skyranger would be iffy but it's clearly more alien trickery (a lone medium craft by itself in Australia when they have a fighter-escorted medium lander elsewhere?) and historically we've always had really good advantages when dealing with a UFO while entering the atmosphere.
Though I'm probably wrong about this, Ebbor, do the Rockslide-upgraded sensor systems help at all with their trickery stuff? Where does it help? (I imagined we'd get at least some counteracting of their trickery & better description of already-detected UFOs).
But yeah. I'll vote for Plan Massacre. It's iffy, but it's a good shot.
Plan Massacre (1): Chiefwaffles
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Plan Massacre (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
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Plan Massacre (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Strongpoint
Looks like there are nothing to discuss during this turn.
What we should design next turn? I see such options.
a) New unit type. Close quarters combat or dedicated snipers are options that come to mind
b) New fighter
c) Body armor that integrates TAV in some way (i find current TAV barely usable unless we have nothing else to spend EP on)
d) New base in South or North America. Very hard is a risk i am hesitant to take but benefits are huge.
e) Land combat drone armed with Phoenix
For revision I am thinking about
a) Fixing TAV
b) Upgrading Inter Agency Teams to make them cheaper and available in more regions. Look at this turn, if we had a way to use Inter Agency Teams in Brazil, the plan would be very different.
c) Revising Ravens
d) Revising Skyranger into anti-large UFO\ground attack craft by replacing cargo space with components for a large railgun, guided bombs and, maybe, turrets.
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Next turn is tricky.
I'm thinking design alloy armor w/ TAV integration, then revise the Raven or Skyranger to allow us to reliably engage in ground combat with at least the "main" UFO party they send out. Maybe some kind of stealth upgrade for the Skyranger? Or alloy armoring for Ravens to allow them to be more tanky in combat? (Keyword here is more, though - Ravens won't really ever be "tanky" in their own right). Because I still personally want to wait until we find an antigrav drive to design a new fighter. Though I don't know why we aren't getting them from the smaller UFOs we capture.
I believe in XCOM:EU the prerequisites for the Avenger fighter was UFO Power Source & UFO Navigation, which we both have/had. But apparently according to Ebbor the antigrav propulsion is its own thing in this.
But body armor I definitely want to do next turn. I just realized this with your post, but yeah, it'd be a great opportunity to fix the TAV. And it of course massively increases the effectiveness of our soldiers. Plus simple alloy armoring can easily be revised onto anything else once we make some proper armor with it.
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Next turn I'm voting for a new base because we really need more points and an alien containment system, even beyond the risk of an incoming base strike from the aliens after we fired off our base defenses and revealed ourselves.
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If we go armor, I can't see how we'll be able to supply all our troops with both XH-2 and armor should we send 3 unit worth of soldiers. It is unlikely that such armor will cost less than 2EP.
________
I very much prefer to wait for some relevant bonus and\or calm turn before going for the base, getting nothing from a design can be a game over.
_____
I am having some second thought about the massacre plan. Sending Skyranger to Brazil may work in case if we shoot down the medium UFO and will need to finish the survivors. On other hand, I hate giving free missions to them.
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I don’t really think armor would cost 2 EP. Considering handheld railguns cost 1 EP and they use both alloys and elerium, I’m not worried at all.
Plus it’d lead to a huge increase in effectiveness on ground.
I just think trying to win ground combat in Brazil is impossible.
We have to shoot it down first since they’re already picking up, and they’re fielding a fighter and a medium lander.
It could concievably work if we crossed our fingers, hope Rockslides are still just that good, and give the Skyrangers all Phoenixes. But then we’d still be gambling on sending our units to their massive operation even if they have casualties.
I’m pretty uncertain about ground combat like this until we get more infantry improvements or at least getting rid of their stupid battlefield omniscience.
Sure, going for Brazil in ground combat has more reward, but substantially increased risk. I’d rather get a few nice tokens - maybe even a grav token - and a good chance at downing their main mission than a chance at some more substantial tokens, guaranteed successes for them, and a good chance for them to still succeed in heir main mission.
Oh also Strongpoint can you make the second mission in Massacre Combined Arms? No real reason not to and Phoenix Skyrangers are good at air support.
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I don’t really think armor would cost 2 EP. Considering handheld railguns cost 1 EP and they use both alloys and elerium, I’m not worried at all.
Plus it’d lead to a huge increase in effectiveness on ground.
You didn't think that TAV will cost anything... Considering that TAVs cost 1, TAVs + armors they are integrated into should cost more than 1
Also, I still think that we don't need "huge increase of effectiveness" on the ground. We are noticeably ahead in the ground combat since introduction of XH-2, sure they can change status quo by designing something for ground forces but everything we design for our airforce helps us in the air because of air support.
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Also, I still think that we don't need "huge increase of effectiveness" on the ground. We are noticeably ahead in the ground combat since introduction of XH-2, sure they can change status quo by designing something for ground forces but everything we design for our airforce helps us in the air because of air support.
This statement is blatantly, horribly, terribly, unreasonably false. The enemy is reading our minds and setting up improbable ambushes with said information. We can't fight battles on the ground right now.
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Also, I still think that we don't need "huge increase of effectiveness" on the ground. We are noticeably ahead in the ground combat since introduction of XH-2, sure they can change status quo by designing something for ground forces but everything we design for our airforce helps us in the air because of air support.
This statement is blatantly, horribly, terribly, unreasonably false. The enemy is reading our minds and setting up improbable ambushes with said information. We can't fight battles on the ground right now.
We lost only one battle when we failed to provide sufficient numbers. I have no doubts that this ambush (aka narrative) wouldn't work if we had at least two NOTSOFTERs there.
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Plan Massacre (4): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Strongpoint, Cnidaros
I concur that this is the only reasonable plan; going for ground combat in Brazil will be a loss with just one squad, and 2 Ravens aren't likely to fare well against a medium UFO and fighter (if that really is a medium UFO!).
The TAV2 is just disappointing. Not so much on battlefield usability, but rather due to its cost. We can only equip one squad with it, assuming everyone has XH-2s and we want Phoenix gunpods somewhere for air support.
I agree with strongpoint that TAV-armour is just silly at this point, we will not have enough points to equip them and expecting it to cost 1 point is a joke.
I don't thinking improving IACTs is viable, unless we get to removing "can't use X-COM gear" restriction as well, they won't be useful in combat. They would only find use in situations such as this turn where we have more UP than transport capability, but going for more VP would solve these situations. Although it is annoying that the aliens are avoiding North America and Europe.
Next turn I'm voting for a new base because we really need more points and an alien containment system, even beyond the risk of an incoming base strike from the aliens after we fired off our base defenses and revealed ourselves.
Going with this. We desperately need more VP and EP instead of designing stuff that costs even more points we don't have. It's going to be a difficult roll, but we need to do it unless we want to do another main base upgrade. I would also be down for cheapening Ravens for a revision, or revising a stunning weapon.
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I agree with strongpoint that TAV-armour is just silly at this point, we will not have enough points to equip them and expecting it to cost 1 point is a joke.
Those are not my words. I consider TAV-armor to be quite viable route to take. We'll need to build our forces in a different way and think hard about the revision, but armor can work well, it widens our tactical options and it gives useful experience for future armoring up of anything.
I don't thinking improving IACTs is viable, unless we get to removing "can't use X-COM gear" restriction as well, they won't be useful in combat. They would only find use in situations such as this turn where we have more UP than transport capability, but going for more VP would solve these situations.
IACT can be quite viable should we reduce their cost in U, get token like effect for a free IACT per turn, get passive reaction\detection to Exalt\infiltrators activities. I consider IACT to be a huge asset that we are ignoring for no good reason.
Also, going for more VP won't magically solve prevent situations like the current one, we'll always have a choice of fighters over transports. IACT can give us tactical flexibility. Something we lack.
Going with this. We desperately need more VP and EP instead of designing stuff that costs even more points we don't have.
We'll have tight budget and need to choose what to produce in any case. When I read you or Happery it looks like you are expecting something like +2VP, +2EP, +2UP from the new base. My expectation is like total +4 in stats for a very good roll, less on average. Else, even at very hard, base design action would be very unbalanced comparing to other designs.
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You realize that the railgun AND now the TAV are chock full of alien crap, right? Some pottery (Ceramic armor will work best against burning-based weaponry) is so cheap relative to our budget, even if it's something crazy like tungsten carbides or something it still won't add much to the cost, I would hope.
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Comparing pottery to Modern ( or extra modern even!) Ceramics is like comparing the production of copper spears using hand tools and a camp fire to a industiral steel blast furnace. But honestly? I think its the next step for armor. Straight alien alloy armor is far to alloy intensive, and we (presumably) already use ceramics in action in thermal situations (Rocket nozzle coatings, bullet-proof plates, Space-Shuttle Insulation tiles, etc.)
Ceramics armor should honestly be our first set of XCOM craftmenship. Metal alloys as a full on armor requires an extreme ability to manipulate the plates so that it is not heavy, bulky, and perhaps even if we did make a set of metal plate mail, we would cap ourselves in terms of improvement (We can only make so many variations of "Make better plate armor."). If we focus on making an in between set and then made our third generation armor with the experience we would have, the benefits and "build" up in terms of quality would be far better then skipping directly to metal plates.
This is assuming the mentality that skipping straight to plate armor wouldn't be the be-all end-all that it might actually be. Ceramics can also act as a industrial machinery part, as alien material ceramics allow us to inflate our metal alloys, as they could be potentially used in other fields besides protecting our soldiers. (Ultra light engine parts that can handle absurd heat, Industrial equipment for forging alien alloy, fusion reactor parts, etc etc.)
We also need to figure out the MELD situation, desperately.
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It seems to me like you’re basing this on Xenonauts, BL. Where the first armor tech is just ceramics. But even based on Xenonauts we’re way ahead of that point. We can reliably manipulate and use alloys. We even have used elerium for multiple different types of power generation.
But this is very much an AR based on XCOM. Even to the point of having Meld and EXALT and tokens representing the reverse engineering and more. And in XCOM, alloy armor is a very early tech.
Alloy armor wouldn’t be something crazy. Not like trying to cover our men head-to-toe in alloy. It’d be alloy plating over certain places while more conventional armor fit against alien weaponry (i.e. ceramics) covers everything else.
And I think people are extremely overpredicting how much a new base will get us. At absolute best we may get enough VP for one more Raven. Maybe. But we’d have to be very lucky to do so and it’d be at the opportunity cost of far better things like reestablishing superiority in ground combat.
I’d rather make our soldiers and Ravens more capable instead of getting one more Raven.
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And I think people are extremely overpredicting how much a new base will get us. At absolute best we may get enough VP for one more Raven. Maybe. But we’d have to be very lucky to do so and it’d be at the opportunity cost of far better things like reestablishing superiority in ground combat.
I’d rather make our soldiers and Ravens more capable instead of getting one more Raven.
I'm not sure how much a new base would get us, and finding out is one reason I want to make one. But I am sure that, if we don't make a new base, we're going to be in big trouble sooner or later now that we've waved a big 'we are here' sign over our current base. Because maybe getting a new base will only give us a single extra point, or maybe it'll give us more then that, but loosing our current base is going to really really hurt.
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Considering how pathetically easy it was for our base to shoot down a UFO before, how we installed three massive railguns since then, how the aliens would have to do a bunch of dedicated stuff to attack our base, and how they don’t actually know where our base is (they just have a very general area), I’m exactly 0% worried about our base being attacked.
A new base at some point isn’t a bad idea but now’s just not the time when we’re dangerously close to being completely outclassed on ground and now maybe even air.
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I am not basing it on either Xenonauts nor XCOM.
I am basing it upon the real life examples.
- Modern day bullet resistant vests use ceramic plates.
- The Space shuttle uses thermally resistant insulation plates of Ceramic.
- Rocket nozzles are sometimes covered in ceramic material.
The fact of the matter is, I am betting that we use ceramic plates now for our armor.
the post i made earlier is just incorporating alien alloys into it, instead of using extremely expensive alien alloy plates everywhere. Ideally, it would be cheaper then a straight alien alloy armor because it is using less in terms of otherwise prohibitively expensive alien alloys.
Another point i want to make is the fact sticking exactly to what happens in the game is honestly boring, Yes we can use Elerium and yes we can manipulate alien electronics and alloys for several things, but were not doing it in a easy way. Making straight alien alloy for our armor using methods that should honestly be reserved for vehicle equipment right now (due to its expense) when we have the option of presumably committing the same or similar amount or protection with a cheaper method points wise that would allow us to spend our industrial capacity on other, cooler assets should be considered.
I can understand if we're going for the equivalent of a plate carrier of alien alloys along with a helmet and then some miscellaneous features, but the Xeno-Ceramic armor would allow to do more extensive protection over more of the body cheaper, as it allows the use of more (and less immediately changeable) alloys in its construction, rather then only the alloys which we have the ability to manipulate (assuming that we cannot manipulate some alloys just as easily as others.) It may even be possible to have it become a standard among our forces, as it could use surplus alien alloys in the production of the ceramics in a cost effective manner.
Yes, we can make alien alloy armor plates, but we could also make xeno-ceramics that could be more comprehensive, less resource intensive, and would give us experience in making actual armor for personnel instead of diving into a relatively new field.
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Chiefwaffles
Why the hell do you think that we are "close to being completely outclassed on the ground"? Just because we lost that one battle when we underinvested?
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Obviously. We must always keep going at them, in the time that we loose assets such as with the EXALT issue, I very much doubt that the Aliens are resting their improvements in ground & air control, I think they have invested such improvements that if we do not improve our ground power, we may very well loose our next battle anyways.
It is an arms race afterall, with two distinct fields of battle that is prevalent right now.
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Because ground matters way more to us than to them. .
How many units did they deploy that turn? They had a ton of landers. And we only won on ground in one. We were very lucky that they split out their forces like that and we could intercept nearly all of them and choose where to engage.
I believe that we don’t have enough of a chance if we were to theoretically send 3 NOTSOFTERs to their main force this turn. And that’s not okay. If we don’t have a strong advantage on ground we won’t be able to properly progress.
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How many units did they deploy that turn? They had a ton of landers. And we only won on ground in one. We were very lucky that they split out their forces like that and we could intercept nearly all of them and choose where to engage.
They deployed five landers. Theoretically this means they could have ten land units. Yet I don't think this is the case. I think strength and equipment of units varied and we went for the strongest one. I think those mimicing things are more expensive in U and E than sectoids or drones
BTW, mimics break rules somehow, I suspect they can compress themselves, travel on hull or something, in Australia they ignored usual rules of transportation of two units per UFO
I believe that we don’t have enough of a chance if we were to theoretically send 3 NOTSOFTERs to their main force this turn.
Unless they got a very tasty land tech (unlikely with them developing medium lander) I don't think this is the case. To repeat advantageous battle of the last turn they'd need 3 sectoids, 3 mimics and 3 times more equipment. If this is true, we are so behind in UP and VP that we have lost ground battle for a long time whatever we do.
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I agree with strongpoint that TAV-armour is just silly at this point, we will not have enough points to equip them and expecting it to cost 1 point is a joke.
Those are not my words. I consider TAV-armor to be quite viable route to take. We'll need to build our forces in a different way and think hard about the revision, but armor can work well, it widens our tactical options and it gives useful experience for future armoring up of anything.
I don't thinking improving IACTs is viable, unless we get to removing "can't use X-COM gear" restriction as well, they won't be useful in combat. They would only find use in situations such as this turn where we have more UP than transport capability, but going for more VP would solve these situations.
IACT can be quite viable should we reduce their cost in U, get token like effect for a free IACT per turn, get passive reaction\detection to Exalt\infiltrators activities. I consider IACT to be a huge asset that we are ignoring for no good reason.
Also, going for more VP won't magically solve prevent situations like the current one, we'll always have a choice of fighters over transports. IACT can give us tactical flexibility. Something we lack.
Going with this. We desperately need more VP and EP instead of designing stuff that costs even more points we don't have.
We'll have tight budget and need to choose what to produce in any case. When I read you or Happery it looks like you are expecting something like +2VP, +2EP, +2UP from the new base. My expectation is like total +4 in stats for a very good roll, less on average. Else, even at very hard, base design action would be very unbalanced comparing to other designs.
I said TAV-armour is not viable at this point due to EP limitations, not that armour is forever non-viable.
Regarding IACT, I still think that they're not worth spending a design on. Although the idea of using IACT to detect/react Exalt and infiltrators is a good one, and I would be willing to vote that for a revision.
I don't have such lofty expectations for a new base's increase to our points. I'd be happy with +1 VP and +1 EP on an average roll, as that would allow us to give TAVs and railguns to all 3 squads, and with a revision for cheaper Ravens (to 1.5VP), allow us to field one more Raven (3 Ravens to 3 Skyrangers, or 4-1).
I got no opinions on the alloy vs ceramic armour thing.
For ground combat, perhaps we should look into capturing aliens to learn how to make tinfoil hats. Before mind-control starts happening. I think the lesson of last turn is that Psi is becoming the deciding factor.
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I don't have such lofty expectations for a new base's increase to our points. I'd be happy with +1 VP and +1 EP on an average roll, as that would allow us to give TAVs and railguns to all 3 squads, and with a revision for cheaper Ravens (to 1.5VP), allow us to field one more Raven (3 Ravens to 3 Skyrangers, or 4-1).
This doesn't look like an efficient way of doing things. Why don't design a new fighter that will be 50% better (per VP) than Raven? Tactical flexibility is a thing but we can easily try to get a 1VP fighter.
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We could always go for the Thunderbird, last seen back here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7655272;topicseen#msg7655272) and now copy pasted for ease of access.
Thunderbird Alloy Interceptor
The Thunderbird is a new fighter design which uses Alien Alloy instead of more mundane materials for both its outer hull, allowing it to better survive plasma strikes, and its internal structural supports, allowing it to reach speeds and make turns which would have literally snapped more mundane fighters into pieces. Beyond that, it also uses alien alloy in its engines, allowing them to run far hotter, and at a higher rate, then would otherwise be possible. These factors allow the craft to reach far higher speeds and maneuverability levels then any previously designed terrestrial aircraft, which should make it a far more effective craft when deployed against the alien vessels. The Thunderbird is armed with a nose mounted Railcannon and two wing mounted missile bays which are equipped to use Avalanches or, should new missiles eventually be designed, other munitions.
This was written up while we didn't have any spare tokens around, but it should still be a better fighter.
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This thing above is raven but better and more expensive. Even if we'll get two times better fighter for 3VP it will be very clunky to use.
Martin
Martin is a very small high speed single seat interceptor powered by a single ramjet engine similar to ones used on Raven. Design with mass-production in mind it uses some alien alloys and technologies only in places where it is really necessary. It is small and built to outrun any known or theorized enemy UFO. It's main armament is a fixed railgun that goes through tail to the nose and has a double purpose of serving as a "spine" of the fighter helping it's structural integrity. Additionally, Martin can carry two missiles on its wingtips. Main purpose of Martin is destruction of lone scouts and other light ships in high atmosphere, yet its railgun posses enough punch to pose a threat to bigger crafts. Needless to say that aircaft comes with improve electronics developed during rockslide and TAV projects. Because it's aerodynamic is optimized for a)speed and b)high attitude flight aircraft is meant to use boom and zoom tactics in aerial combat never trying to outmaneuver crafts with antigrav propulsion.
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I won't complain too much if we do an aircraft design next turn (and on that note I kinda agree with Strongpoint - if we are making aircraft and don't have a grav token, we should make a small 1 VP fighter), but it should definitely not use the Alloy token.
I feel like a sidegrade-ish light fighter - even if it has any degree of alloy plating - wouldn't get as much from an Alloy token as much as infantry armor dedicated around the idea of alloys. Considering infantry armor would basically be entirely within the category of the alloy token and only smallish parts of an aircraft design would be within the realm of the alloy token.
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I might cry if we managed to make a human-piloted fighter like the Thunderbird.
Modern fighters can't get faster to turn because they'd kill the pilot/black them out with g-strain. Just make it a DRONE FIGHTER. Control system at base, or on a Skyranger. Either way, drones can turn faster, are lighter, cheaper, and harder to detect, while still being capable of packing a huge punch.
Oh, and they can't be psionically screwed with, either.
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Honestly what I'd like to do with the Thunderbird would be to rewrite it so it uses Anti-Gravity plating/gear/whatever from the alien drones to buffer the G-Forces on the pilot, and use the alien equipment token on that, but when i first wrote that up we didn't have any alien equipment tokens nor had we killed of the enemy drones.
Given the aliens are already playing with electronic warfare, not sure we want to go for a potentially hackable/jammable drone fighter though.
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It's been confirmed that alien gravity tech is its own token, so any design built using antigrav would essentially us inventing anti-gravity technology from scratch without any help from alien tech.
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That's unfortunate. Wonder what we need to do to get some then? We've already taken both drones and ufos down.
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I am not sure that remote controlled drone is better than a piloted fighter. Psionic screwing is a problem but so is signal jamming and satellite destruction. AI drone is better but it looks hard to do.
We have equipment token from a battle where enemy had pistols, grenades, sectoids and mimics. It doesn't look like grav plating material.
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Alien alloys with absurd temperature, durability and wear resistance would be far more effective in an engine than in a set of armor. Yeah, some grunt can survive a bolt of plasma easier, but we could also build an aircraft jet-engine that could out accelerate an equivalent engine by a fair margin and take down a UFO with the same amount of alloys.
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we kinda can import that kind of alloys from XH-2. Aluen alloys in XH-2 were used for exactly that - temperature resistance
We can use alien alloys to further advance that knowledge or gain shock\plasma resistant alloys(armor) or lightweight alloys (aircrafts)
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HARD (equipment, alloy, experience tokens)
HARD (Heavy assault, something, something) is an elite X-COM unit. created to engage enemy in close quarters combat up to using melee weapons. Additionally, those soldiers learned everything we learned from alien autopsies and know how to kill or disable enemy aliens. Even before additional training those soldiers were special, one could be a master sword user and knife thrower, another a linguist that can communicate with civilians in every part of world, third is practicing shamanism who claims that he counters alien "evil magic", etc. Their equipment is special, too. First of all their is armor focused on something that no modern army expected to focus ever again - protection against melee attacks. But there are more. Everything carried by a member of HARD is special, fine-tuned and possibly using alien inspired tech. If its a kevlar vest, its armor plates have alien elements strengthening it and improving performance against plasma weapons, if it is a pistol it uses bullets hardened with alien alloys, if it is a flashbang it is adapted to hurt alien eyes more, if it is a hand grenade it has elerium additives for a more powerful punch, even their combat knifes are unlike any other. Even standard X-COM equipment like XH-2 or TAV2 come in slightly improved versions.
I expect this to cost 2UP and it may be a good thing because less units = less EP to spend on equipping them and less VP spent transporting them.
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HARD (equipment, alloy, experience tokens)
HARD (Heavy assault, something, something) is an elite X-COM unit. created to engage enemy in close quarters combat up to using melee weapons. Additionally, those soldiers learned everything we learned from alien autopsies and know how to kill or disable enemy aliens. Even before additional training those soldiers were special, one could be a master sword user and knife thrower, another a linguist that can communicate with civilians in every part of world, third is practicing shamanism who claims that he counters alien "evil magic", etc. Their equipment is special, too. First of all their is armor focused on something that no modern army expected to focus ever again - protection against melee attacks. But there are more. Everything carried by a member of HARD is special, fine-tuned and possibly using alien inspired tech. If its a kevlar vest, its armor plates have alien elements strengthening it and improving performance against plasma weapons, if it is a pistol it uses bullets hardened with alien alloys, if it is a flashbang it is adapted to hurt alien eyes more, if it is a hand grenade it has elerium additives for a more powerful punch, even their combat knifes are unlike any other. Even standard X-COM equipment like XH-2 or TAV2 come in slightly improved versions.
I expect this to cost 2UP and it may be a good thing because less units = less EP to spend on equipping them and less VP spent transporting them.
+1 for the stereotypical Jamacian Shaman. I don't like the blanket "uses special custom made alien improved equipment" though.
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Why not? There are millions of small improvements that can be done. Using design on a "bunch of small stuff usually use" isn't wise, rolling one into the unit looks fine.
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Why not? There are millions of small improvements that can be done. Using design on a "bunch of small stuff usually use" isn't wise, rolling one into the unit looks fine.
You are positively suiciding that roll. It'd be VH or worse for sure, you're doing probably a dozen POORLY DEFINED revisions all in one design AND creating a new, specific, and difficult (On account of the rarity of the special snowflakes you're trying to recruit) unit type to boot.
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You see dozens of revisions, I see fluff and justification for using tokens. Most of the stuff there aren't meant real revisions. Those are small improvements. I probably need to rephrase that for clarity.
I'll probably edit out armor part out of that in a real submission should I decide to go this route. It doesn't seem as a rational use of alloys and actually may improve complexity a bit. On other hand if design is intended to use for a long time, then, IMO, all available tokens should be poured into it.
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Target: Brazil
Vehicle: 1x Medium UFO?, 1x Alien Fighter
Units present : Sectoids?, Scout Droids?, Skin crawlers?
Altitude : Departing
OPERATION : FORGOTTEN JESTER
SECURITY CLASSIFICATION : X-1
With a thundering roar, Talon Flight's 3 Raven fighters set out from their underground hangars towards the alien ships terrorizing Brazil. A grim mood hangs over the pilots. Though they're flying humanities finest aircraft, armed with the finest missiles and even alien technology itself, they know they're going up against long odds. XCOM's air component has had it's victories, but it has also faced significant losses. And now, they'll go up against the aliens newest fighting machines.
Even so, none among them think for a moment to shirk their duty. They are humanities finest. They're XCOM.
They will fight, and if needed die, to protect humanity.
They will destroy those UFO's, condemning hundreds to a fiery death to safe them from alien depredations.
Interception occurs high above Brazil, the alien vessels already well on their way back to orbit. Flaring afterburners, the Raven interceptors pile on speed as they move to cut of the vessels escape. The two alien vessels react rapidly, breaking of their flight, turning instead to face the approaching threat.
The smaller UFO, a dangerous fighter design previously encountered, turns sharply and speeds ahead. The larger UFO, nearly thrice the size, follows closely, showing a nimbleness unexpected of its size. A few small plasma bursts erupt from guns mounted around it's rim, soon outdone by a familiar overwhelming barrage from the fighter design. Talon squad's fighters dodge and weave through the experimental bursts, before each unleashing their full 8 missile Rockslide barrages.
Twentyfour missiles pierce through the sky, eight towards the fighter, sixteen towards the larger UFO. Piercing straight through the alien ECM, the missiles fly straight towards their desperately dodging quarries. A few missiles fail to hold onto the nimble craft, but many more continue their deadly trajectory. The moment of impact comes, and both vessels are completely engulfed in flame. Talon Flight, still alive and unhurt, sheers.
Their celebration is short lived however, cut short as the UFO's burst from the big plasma clouds, unhurt save for a few scars in their armor. Plasma barrages from the fighter and the transport's turrets bear down upon Talon squad as they dive in closer to finish of the job. An unlucky hit clips Talon 2's wing, and her fighter plummets back to Earth, lacking a wing.
Phoenix cannons firing, Talon 1 and 3 bear down upon the larger UFO. Shells tear through it's hull, tearing holes into the armor and spilling goods into the thin outer air. Despite the growing damage to it's outer sectors, the performance of the craft appears unimpeded. The guns along it's rim continue their fire unabated, forcing Talon 1 to dodge desperately until it becomes easy prey for the fighter. Doing so renders it's vulnerable for Talon 3 however, and the Raven destroys the fighter with a well aimed rail gun shot.
Lone survivor, and low on both fuel and ammunition, Talon 3 dives in for one last past. Overloading capacitor safeties, he aims straight for the more resistant and as of yet unharmed central section. The projectile explodes through the air, smashing straight into and then through the armor plating. For a moment, the large UFO appears to stumble, unstable in the air, but then it recovers.
Out of ammunition, and rapidly approaching the end of the his Raven's endurance, Talon-3 is forced to break of pursuit.
Result : Interception Failed : Medium Fighter Destroyed, Large UFO escaped (Heavily Damaged)
Tactical notes : The enemy has introduced a new missile defense system. Current analysis indicates that it is very effective though not perfect at destroying missile weaponry at close distance to the ship by emitting a shield of plasma from their cannons. It appears that the cannons are incapable of firing at our planes for the short period the shield is active, something we'll consider in future operations.
The new enemy UFO is clearly larger and tougher than designs we've seen before. It's not that heavily armed, with 3 plasma turrets around it's rim, but it does appear to have a though armored central core.
Target: Australia
Vehicle: 1x Medium UFO?
Altitude : Reentry
Operation Soaring Dream
The operation in Australia turns out to be yet another small lander operating as a decoy. But their subterfuge turned out to be their downfall. With a clear signal, we anticipated their intended destination and managed to get a Skyranger on them the moment they landed. After that, it was a simple manner of shooting Sectoids coming out of a barrel. There was barely as many of them as there were of us, no drones, no tricks, and we had railguns and TAV's.
We're eager to report complete elimination of the enemy, capture of their UFO and no friendly casualties.
Gain : 1 VP Token, 1 Propulsion Token, 1 Powercore Token
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
TAV-2: A cobbled together combat visor that can identify and highlight aliens, including disguised ones. Fragile, cobbled together and decidly unergonomic.
Cost : 1 EP
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
4+1 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 Alien alloy token, 1 VP Token, 1 Propulsion Token, 1 Powercore Token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Design Phase
Turn 7
Challenge: Command has decided to catalogue our enemies equipment. The side which manages to make the best description/analysis of a piece of enemy equipment may win a price.
AABBCCDD
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Hm. It might be a good time to reinvent our fighters using our knowledge and tokens. A simple revision, however, will be more than enough to nullify their new defensive system---a ceramic layer will stop the heat from melting the missiles in time to kill them. We could also include some sort of "go even faster" improve. Are we using a
phebotinum elerium rocket-fuel equivalent yet?
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AAAAAAAAAH POWER CORE AND PROPULSION TOKENS
(Name stolen inspired by ebbor's squadron's name)
Design: Talon Interceptor
1 Alien Alloy Token, 1 Powercore Token, 1 Propulsion Token
Oh, aliens.
Giving us the technology to build a new fighter in a gift-wrapped golden handbasket. Truly, their generosity knows no bounds.
The Talon Interceptor is something else entirely. A culmination of everything we've done so far.
Its trademark feature are the gravity pulse drives. The aliens' craft are inelegant. Inefficient. They brute force flight. On the other hand, humans have over a century of flight on Earth and in her atmosphere. So instead of blindly using their clumsy technology, let's truly use it. Show the aliens why we won't be phased by a couple thousand-year headstart.
The Gravity Pulse Drive is admittedly, largely alien tech. Namely, the tech just recently pried from their small UFO that they gave to us. We haven't completely reverse engineered it yet to perserve complexity of this design, and we don't need to. Instead of having a complicated multi-array system capable of shifting the gravity in any direction, the Gravity Pulse Drive takes more notes from terrestrial flight systems. It (in extreme layman's terms) essentially "throws" gravitons backwards to give immense speeds. It's not as 360-degree manueverable as alien craft, but it's still vastly more agile and manuverable than anything earthborne.
The Talon still employs copious use of wings (though theoretically losing them would be less awful, just somewhat crippling) in order to allow the GPD to focus on non-vertical propulsion. Some intentional "leakthrough" of the gravity effect cancels out some of the G-forces in the cockpit, allowing the pilot to not become a pile of blood and bones when accelerating the craft.
An alien power core - drawing from our experience in XH2 guns' power sources, the base's power supply, and some tricks/tips in optimizing it for aircraft use thanks to the gifted UFO power core - powers the craft, satisfying the immense power draws of the Gravityt Pulse Drive.
Alien alloy armoring - very thick for an aircraft (though not too thick by itself) - combined with ceramics allows the craft to tank numerous hits from alien weapons.
The Talon is equipped with two hardpoints on the front for autocannons and other non-missiles. Numerous hardpoints on the wings and elsewhere (number is >= to #raven hardpoints) can be fit with missiles. Or Phoenix gunpods, but they aren't as facilitated. The two front (Phoenix) hardpoints are given a direct line to the power core, meaning any Phoenix gunpods loaded there should be notably more lethal.
An integrated Rockslide system, based on experience from the TAV2 and integration of Rockslide in our base, combined with an advanced (TAV-like) hud allows for extremely easy targetting of foes. The craft, using our computing experience, does a remarkable amount of tasks on its own. Hostile targets are immediately and continously analyzed by the Talon, and all information harnessed about the targets are fed to the pilot and automated targetting systems.
Ultimately, it's amazing. Faster, more agile, more armored, and more deadly than any nation on Earth could have ever dreamed of. It's even mostly based on our own tech. The only really new things are the alloy armoring and Gravity Pulse Drive; where we already have experience (and some more alien alloys to toy with) with the armor, and a propulsion system gifted to us by the aliens to use.
TL;DR: Our next-generation interceptor. Gravity engines, alloy-composite armor, better power, better hardpoints, better targetting, just better. Should be a gamechanger, and is surprisingly obtainable. Thanks to our heavy experience and use of tokens in applicable areas.
DESIGN
Talon Interceptor (1): Chiefwaffles
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As far as I know, we're still using baseline missiles. The electronics are better, but all the hardware should be the same. It should be a simplish revision to make a new missile variant with a plasma resistant coating though, yah.
Design wise, I still want to see about trying to put a new base up next turn, hopefully get some more VP, UP, and EP going, and make sure that if they attack the base we've revealed to them and win we'll still have a base. But for this turn the Talon Interceptor looks good, and we also got a new VP token we can spend, either on it or for another free Skyranger.
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I like Talon. My only problem that it may be too expensive to give us any tactical flexibility
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Well, it'll definitely be more expensive for sure. But keep in mind that this isn't "the raven + GPD + power core". The new propulsion and power source replace other super expensive parts in the Raven - the human-based reactor and propulsion. Hell, the Raven was already on the extreme bleeding edge of tech, so their parts were bound to be extremely expensive.
I'm not trying to claim that it'll be cheaper or even the same price, but I'm saying we shouldn't expect some insane increase in VP cost. And if it does cost more, that's fine. It'll be more than worth it, and things will get more expensive over time. People are still planning on a base to expand our air/VP capabilities, and we even have a VP token we can and should use on the Talon to get one for free always (which would be huge.)
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To buy 3VP fighter you need three VP tokens. If this wasn't the case we would have a spare raptor long time ago.
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Ah, woops.
Regardless. Still very useful.
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After a brief discussion with Chief-Waffles over Discord, I have come to the conclusion of voting for Chief Waffles Talon Intercepter. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7689695#msg7689695) with a single change.
I would prefer if a sentence related to the ships armor is changed.
Alien alloy armoring - very thick for an aircraft (though not too thick by itself) - combined with ceramics allows the craft to tank numerous hits from alien weapons.
the entire crafts outer hull is made up of ceramic plates held in place by an interior and exterior hull plates of Alien-Alloy, this structure armor emplacement allows the craft to tank numerous hits from alien weapons.
The reason why I ask for this is that I feel it is too vague in relation to the rest of the craft as well as a couple other unlisted reasons. Ideally, I would prefer this changed before I voted, but I would probably forget, so I'm just gonna vote for the design and politely ask that you change it or else.
I have also made another Design vote of the -B variant of this craft which is exclusively just this change with the rest of the crafts design implementation in Chiefwaffles original post the same in case my demands are not enforced and Chiefwaffles refuses my ultimatum. If Chiefwaffles does, in fact, change his design to include my requested change, then the Interceptor A and B variant will effectively be the same and should count as voting for the same thing.
DESIGN
Talon Interceptor-A (1): Chiefwaffles
Talon Intercepter-B (1):Blood_Librarian
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After a brief discussion with Chief-Waffles over Discord, I have come to the conclusion of voting for Chief Waffles Talon Intercepter. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7689695#msg7689695) with a single change.
Wait, when did this game gain a discord?
Honestly, on the subject of aircraft, I think the first armor description sounds better.
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He direct messaged me two hours before he designed the craft if I wanted to design the craft with him. By the time I was online he had already designed the craft and I nitpicked over little things.
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Ceramics are better armor against plasma weaponry, though, but including an outer layer of metal as well will allow the skin to survive impacts and heat better.
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I have a different aircraft design in mind.
Colibri, 1 Powercore Token, 1 Propulsion Token
Colibri is a small and nimble fighter about 2\3 of Raven size built for boom and zoom tactic. It is propelled by a ramjet based on the one used on Ravens but it has another source of power very similar to the one used on alien crafts. This power source is used to provide power to two key systems: Phoenix derived railgun that goes from the tail to the nose of the aircraft and gravity manipulating unit that allows pilot to change weight (not mass) of the aircraft. AGU can be used to reduce Earth gravity to as low as 0.25G for the unprecedented climbing speed or increased to 3G for fast diving. Also, AGU can be used to manipulate G forces in the pilot's cockpit allowing pilot to endure much more extreme maneuvers. Needless to say that Colibri has improved set of electronics comparing to Raven benefiting from experience gained during Rockslide and TAV projects. In addition to its main internal armament Colibri can carry roughly half as much external weapons as Ravens.
I want AGU because I see potential of it for our soldiers and gravity reducing armor while Talon's engine is useless for Infantry. Also, I want to focus on railgun and leave missiles alone for some time. Also, it doesn't try to be a flying tank and saves alloy token for the infantry armor.
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One mounting point can't carry more than one missile, unless it's internal. Anything more than one (MAYBE two, MAYBE) produced some weird aerodynamic effects, and would make it nigh impossible to keep up with a UFO in combat.
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OK, I'll rephrase it to be more clear that I want them to be able to carry half of what Raven's can
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The Talon engine gives us experience with wholesale gravity manipulation. Not as much as a “make the craft lighter” sure but it has its own set of benefits.
The Talon GPD is arguably easier and better for aircraft. We use gravity tech specialized in just forward-propulsion (with some thrust vectoring and minor gravity manipulation for normally impractical g-forces) and combine it with our conventional plane tech.
The aliens’ propulsion is designed for space. We should take advantage of the fact that we’ve been making aircraft designed for Earth for a while. Focus on adapting the gravity tech to our advantages. We don’t need complete gravity manipulation yet, and shouldn’t risk the difficulty gained in attempting to acquire complete gravity manipulation.
And anyways, infantry flight is going to be hard and needing of its own propulsion token either way. You can’t adapt an experimental extreme-speed interceptor engine for infantry use easily, no matter how that engine works.
The GPD gives us experience with gravity manipulation and propulsion, meaning that infantry flight would be well within range once we have the right tokens.
Though the Colibri is potentially valid (I still greatly prefer the Talon). But I do think it should have a much greater focus on agility if it doesn’t add armor and is relying on close-ranged fixed mount weapons.
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It is meant to be a zoom and boom fighter, it needs raw speed and acceleration, not agility.
I don't want infantry flight, I want to have Moon like jumping and ability to carry heavy stuff first.
Actually... how about doing infantry battle armor with gravity reduction and then adapt it to Raven with a revision?
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I much prefer the Talon. It is more detailed and also probably less difficult than the Colibri.
Strongpoint, it absolutely not going to work to "boom and zoom" against spacecraft that literally don't have to care about gravity, even if you're screwing with gravity yourself.
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Hmmmm.... Just a thought. Alternative "completely original" idea:
Gravity pulse drive: 1 Propulsion Token, 1 Powercore Token
The aliens' craft are inelegant. Inefficient. They brute force flight. On the other hand, humans have over a century of flight on Earth and in her atmosphere. So instead of blindly using their clumsy technology, let's truly use it. Show the aliens why we won't be phased by a couple thousand-year headstart.
The Gravity Pulse Drive is admittedly, largely alien tech. Namely, the tech just recently pried from their small UFO that they gave to us. We haven't completely reverse engineered it yet to perserve complexity of this design, and we don't need to. Instead of having a complicated multi-array system capable of shifting the gravity in any direction, the Gravity Pulse Drive takes more notes from terrestrial flight systems. It (in extreme layman's terms) essentially "throws" gravitons backwards to give immense speeds.
First versions of Gravity pulse drive come with a built-in power source and created to replace ramjets on Ravens and Skyrangers but technology is easily adaptable for any future aircrafts including ones that will be purposely designed for this kind of propulsion and have their own power units.
Why not focus on the drive itself if we are going for Talon, that looks like a bloated superrevision of Raven? It increases our chance of success on that one key technology instead of spreading the effort on airframe, new alloys, new electronics and other stuff. If we make a drive that works largely as our old ones... Why not use it on our existing aircraft? We can even combine it with a following Raven revision.
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It is not a super revision of the Raven. We are recreating our aircraft with latest generation technology. Its like the difference between propeller planes and jets.
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If you want to build a craft relying on Phoenix gunpods, the craft is going to have to spend greatly increased time in proximity of alien weapons, and is going to have to be able to consistently maneuver to keep its guns pointing at alien craft plus to dodge said weapons.
A missile aircraft is what you want if you’re only going for speed. Get in, fire missiles, get out.
And there is no good way to make flight armor this early. We’d be reverse engineering an extremely heavy alien aircraft gravity technology to put on infantry armor. And “gravity reduction” isn’t exactly a huge infantry advantage. And turning a glorified infantry jumpjet into an extreme-speed aircraft in a revision seems like a worse idea.
And the Talon is a perfectly conventional design. New aircraft based on new components, making use of our technology to be better.
You’re misrepresenting how designs work. It’s not “each feature adds +x points; design must be under y points.” We’re making a new aircraft. It includes features that we can reasonably include. It uses tokens to achieve those features.
A dedicated GPD design seems like an awful idea. There’s no benefits or reason to doing it in its own design and we have to spend two designs to get the same thing. It’s just doing what Tokens already explicitly exist to be used for.
By the way, people should probably start voting soon.
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It is not a super revision of the Raven. We are recreating our aircraft with latest generation technology. Its like the difference between propeller planes and jets.
Propeller planes and jets are different because of two key reasons : propeller pulls\jet pushes and aerodynamics at mach+ are different.
That drive is much close to jets than jets to propellers and Ravens should be quite easy to adapt. Yes, designing aircraft to match the engine is beneficial but I think that focusing our "design power" on the engine is more beneficial and slight unsuitedness of Raven for new Engine is more than compensated by a better engine we'll get.
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A dedicated GPD design seems like an awful idea. There’s no benefits or reason to doing it in its own design and we have to spend two designs to get the same thing. It’s just doing what Tokens already explicitly exist to be used for.
Tokens exist to buff designs depending on how much they fit it. If you really want to say that aircraft with pulse drive benefits from propulsion token as much as the drive itself....
As for "spend two designs to get the same thing". It is an absurd statement. I have faith that GM will assign quite different quality of design that went design everything at once than design one thing, than design everything else.
You say there are no benefits or reason to go for the drive first because you don't want to look at reasons or benefits. They are obvious. You may say that they don't outweigh benefits of going for a new aircrafts but that it is a very different thing.
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That's...
really stupid.
That's like saying "THE RAILGUN IS A BAD IDEA; IF IT ISN'T COMPLETE COPYING OF AN EXISTING PIECE OF ALIEN EQUIPMENT THEN IT WON'T GET THE FULL BENEFITS OF THE TOKEN"
Or "THE ALIENS NEVER USED ALIEN ALLOYS AS PARTS IN RAILGUNS SO WHY THE HELL ARE WE USING AN ALIEN ALLOY TOKEN ON A RAILGUN?!?!?!?!"
And no, two designs is not just automatically better than one.
Let me apply the same approach to your most recent design.
Design: Gravity Reverse Engineering (1 Propulsion Token)
Since it's so clearly a great idea to be as careful as we humanly can, we obviously need to spend some more time preparing before jumping headfirst into making an entire gravity engine design. The entire point of XCOM is to be "slow and methodical and to public peer-reviewed studies on alien technology", after all. "Preparing our forces to fight the alien menace"? Please.
The point of this design is to take apart the alien gravity propulsion, study it, and maybe even see if we can make a neat little impractical prototype in the lab! Science is fun.
I mean, look at the proposal to make an entire gravity engine. Impractical. It tries to do so many things in one design. It tries to reverse engineer alien tech, it tries to make a multi-array system, it tries to adds components from terrestrial flight systems, and it tries to incorporate its own power source!
That sounds like a superrevision to me. Trying to do so many things in one design. Just irresponsible. So let's do this instead.
Or to another one of our designs.
Design: Railgun Theory (1 Alien Equipment Token)
Railguns are complicated. It'd be silly to try and jump right into it. So let's spend an entire design just preparing for the railgun. Sure, we'll have to spend two designs to get a gun, but hey. Some of our engineers tell us that it never hurts to be more careful. Never. Hurts.
Also, it'd be pretty stupid to try and make a railgun at once. We'd be incorporating an alien power supply, miniaturizing existing railgun technologies, making the proper ammunition loader, then making it usable by our soldiers! What is that, some kind of "superrevision" maybe? Sounds like a bad idea to me.
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It is not a super revision of the Raven. We are recreating our aircraft with latest generation technology. Its like the difference between propeller planes and jets.
Propeller planes and jets are different because of two key reasons : propeller pulls\jet pushes and aerodynamics at mach+ are different.
That drive is much close to jets than jets to propellers and Ravens should be quite easy to adapt. Yes, designing aircraft to match the engine is beneficial but I think that focusing our "design power" on the engine is more beneficial and slight unsuitedness of Raven for new Engine is more than compensated by a better engine we'll get.
1. No, no that is NOT the difference. Propellers can push (the FIRST POWERED AIRCRAFT EVER used a pusher prop), and if you mount a jet engine in front of the aircraft it will pull. The only real difference is that jets have dangerously hot exhaust, and that jets don't suffer from as many issues with moving past the speed of sound (i.e., making the propeller go faster than the speed of sound is basically necessary for a supersonic prop plane, yet has lots of issues, mostly structural. Oh, and the sound is literally deafening.)
2. Flying at supersonic speeds and flying at hypersonic speeds is also VASTLY different, and now we're facing the actual possibility of reaching such ludicrous speeds. Also, that difference has nothing to do with the differences between a prop plane and a jet plane, except in the case that one actually reaches and surpasses the speed of sound, but that is NOT a native difference to jet vs. prop. Early jets didn't go past the speed of sound either.
3. The Raven isn't just "slightly unsuited" for a new engine. We can do so much to make the thing smaller, faster, stronger, yet lighter, all with less difficulty than we'd have attempting to keep the Raven alive past its expiration date.
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Unga dunga. Me use spear to kill people. me have stone blade, but oh no, me being killed by copper spear.
When I said "the difference between propeller planes and jets", I meant more of the technological base required to build such craft. I am not comparing the actual crafts themselves, but the technology and know how on how to build them. Just as jet engines are compared to the propeller blade, our net, modern craft, will be the next generation of propulsion in aircraft power.
@ChiefWaffles @Madman198237 I am honestly a little disappointed at both your passive aggression towards @strongpoint, mainly because it's dangerously close to becoming toxic enough for me to lose interest in the game.
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To be fair, they're not the only ones whom often find strongpoint's plans aggravating, though we should still all try to be polite to each other no matter how much we think the other guy is wrong.
DESIGN
Talon Interceptor-A (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
Talon Intercepter-B (2):Blood_Librarian, Happerry
Anyway, voted for the new generation fighter, instead of just trying to make a new engine or the overly-specialized flying gun of the Colibri because I think the Talon will be useful longer into the game as described and be a better platform for later refits as we get more stuff.
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DESIGN
Talon Interceptor-A (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
Talon Intercepter-B (3):Blood_Librarian, Happerry, Madman198237
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1 Alien Alloy Token, 1 Powercore Token, 1 Propulsion Token
The Talon Interceptor is something else entirely. A culmination of everything we've done so far.
Its trademark feature are the gravity pulse drives. The aliens' craft are inelegant. Inefficient. They brute force flight. On the other hand, humans have over a century of flight on Earth and in her atmosphere. So instead of blindly using their clumsy technology, let's truly use it. Show the aliens why we won't be phased by a couple thousand-year headstart.
The Gravity Pulse Drive is admittedly, largely alien tech. Namely, the tech just recently pried from their small UFO that they gave to us. We haven't completely reverse engineered it yet to perserve complexity of this design, and we don't need to. Instead of having a complicated multi-array system capable of shifting the gravity in any direction, the Gravity Pulse Drive takes more notes from terrestrial flight systems. It (in extreme layman's terms) essentially "throws" gravitons backwards to give immense speeds. It's not as 360-degree manueverable as alien craft, but it's still vastly more agile and manuverable than anything earthborne.
The Talon still employs copious use of wings (though theoretically losing them would be less awful, just somewhat crippling) in order to allow the GPD to focus on non-vertical propulsion. Some intentional "leakthrough" of the gravity effect cancels out some of the G-forces in the cockpit, allowing the pilot to not become a pile of blood and bones when accelerating the craft.
An alien power core - drawing from our experience in XH2 guns' power sources, the base's power supply, and some tricks/tips in optimizing it for aircraft use thanks to the gifted UFO power core - powers the craft, satisfying the immense power draws of the Gravity Pulse Drive.
The entire crafts outer hull is made up of ceramic plates held in place by an interior and exterior hull plates of Alien-Alloy, this structure armor emplacement allows the craft to tank numerous hits from alien weapons.
The Talon is equipped with two hardpoints on the front for autocannons and other non-missiles. Numerous hardpoints on the wings and elsewhere (number is >= to #raven hardpoints) can be fit with missiles. Or Phoenix gunpods, but they aren't as facilitated. The two front (Phoenix) hardpoints are given a direct line to the power core, meaning any Phoenix gunpods loaded there should be notably more lethal.
An integrated Rockslide system, based on experience from the TAV2 and integration of Rockslide in our base, combined with an advanced (TAV-like) hud allows for extremely easy targetting of foes. The craft, using our computing experience, does a remarkable amount of tasks on its own. Hostile targets are immediately and continously analyzed by the Talon, and all information harnessed about the targets are fed to the pilot and automated targetting systems.
Ultimately, it's amazing. Faster, more agile, more armored, and more deadly than any nation on Earth could have ever dreamed of. It's even mostly based on our own tech. The only really new things are the alloy armoring and Gravity Pulse Drive; where we already have experience (and some more alien alloys to toy with) with the armor, and a propulsion system gifted to us by the aliens to use.
Hard 2 + 4 - 1 = 5 (3 tokens used)
The Talon Interceptor is XCOM's pride. The culmination of a tremendous amount of research and a significant amount of alien technology, it far exceeds the performance of any human plane ever build before.
More than twice as large as the Raven that is technically it's predecessor, the Talon is a very impressive and imposing craft. Covered in gleaming alien armor and with it's sleek narrow delta wing, it's seems the chosen name was surprisingly apt. Even more so when one considers it's armament, which consists of 18 missile hard points (half again more than Raven) as well as a dual nose mount, which by default is equipped with 2 uprated XH2 railguns.
Most of the space within the Talon's double alloy hull is taken up by it's powerful alien power reactor, and the modified grav drive array. The pilot sits safely in front of this powerful array, taking in their surroundings through a modified TAV-2 suite. Additional software systems gather data from the crafts many sensors, helping ensure that the pilot is aware of his surroundings and his enemies.
All in all, it's a spectacular aircraft. Challenging to fly, certainly. The interface can be overwhelming, the grav bleedthrough disorienting, and the whole experience somewhat overpowering. The crafts significant mass combined with the grav drives peculiarities result in a very peculiar flying pattern, with significant inertia causing the craft to possibly fly sideways or backwards if the pilot is overly aggressive with the controls. In the hands of a skilled pilot however, it's deadly, enduring and nimble.
Also, very expensive.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Talon (Interceptor) : Integrating copious amounts of Alien Technology, the Talon is grav-wave propelled, heavily armored interceptor. Has 18 hard points for missiles and 2 nose mounts, fitted with a railgun by default. Cost : 3 VP
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
TAV-2: A cobbled together combat visor that can identify and highlight aliens, including disguised ones. Fragile, cobbled together and decidly unergonomic.
Cost : 1 EP
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
4+1 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 VP Token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Design Phase
Turn 7
Challenge: Command has decided to catalogue our enemies equipment. The side which manages to make the best description/analysis of a piece of enemy equipment may win a price.
AABBCCDD
[/quote]
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So revise alien alloy missiles for anti-plasma bath use, and spend the Vehicle Token on the Talon?
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So revise alien alloy missiles for anti-plasma bath use, and spend the Vehicle Token on the Talon?
I think you mean 1\3 of Talon, right?
3VP is very cheap for this kind of craft, I expected 4... We should spend vp on skyranger and our default will be 2Skyrangers + 2 Talons, alternative is 3 skyrangers, 1 talon, 1 Raven but that looks very suboptimal
I don't think that we need to spend a revision on missiles, Talon is a huge leap already. If we want to use two Talons (and we want) we need to be content with using 2 Skyrangers
Upgrade Inter Agency Cooperation teams: 1 unit experience token
Student became teachers, X-COM sends combat veterans to teach anti-alien tactics to special forces all over the world with the intent to have more allies in fight with the extraterrestrial enemy (first goal of the revision is worldwide a coverage, second goal is a lower U cost)
Our current optimal setup is > two talons, 2 skyrangers, 3 pods, 2xrifles, 2xTAVs and that spends everything but a U. My revision above is aimed at using that U.
Talon (Interceptor) : Integrating copious amounts of Alien Technology, the Talon is grav-wave propelled, heavily armored interceptor. Has 18 hard points for missiles and 2 nose mounts, fitted with a railgun by default. Cost : 3 VP
10ebbor10, does it mean that those railguns have no EP cost? Also, can we add even more railguns by spending E and reducing amount of missiles?
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So revise alien alloy missiles for anti-plasma bath use, and spend the Vehicle Token on the Talon?
I think you mean 1\3 of Talon, right?
Um, basically? Spend it on the Talon, decrease the cost of our first one by one VP like a token always does?
3VP is very cheap for this kind of craft, I expected 4... We should spend vp on skyranger and our default will be 2Skyrangers + 2 Talons, alternative is 3 skyrangers, 1 talon, 1 Raven but that looks very suboptimal
I was thinking spend it on the Talon and then we'd keep our current deployment lineup, but replacing one of the ravens with a Talon. Because as long as we're deploying them against the smaller UFOs, the Ravens still seem to have good odds to win. I guess a 'free' skyranger is never a bad thing though.
I don't think that we need to spend a revision on missiles, Talon is a huge leap already. If we want to use two Talons (and we want) we need to be content with using 2 Skyrangers
Upgrade Inter Agency Cooperation teams: 1 unit experience token
Student became teachers, X-COM sends combat veterans to teach anti-alien tactics to special forces all over the world with the intent to have more allies in fight with the extraterrestrial enemy (first goal of the revision is worldwide a coverage, second goal is a lower U cost)
The reason I want to spend it on Missiles is that they just did two anti-missile upgrades. Well, one anti-missile upgrade and one new craft with heavier armor, but that still amounts to making our current missiles a lot worse. Maybe we should do something else with our revision this turn, but we need to at least come up with an anti-point defense upgrade sometime soon or else our missiles are just never going to hit, and with the enemy now deploying newer heavier UFOs, it seemed like a time to start researching elerium explosives by way of a bigger warhead.
Honestly not so hot on the idea of the inter-agency Cooperation teams, they won't have railguns and I suspect they'll be more like rookies then notsofter troops, so I'm not sure how useful they'll be. They're also already cheap, in that they only cost one point, so how would we make them cheaper? I really doubt we'll get a two for one deal on them.
Our current optimal setup is > two talons, 2 skyrangers, 3 pods, 2xrifles, 2xTAVs and that spends everything but a U. My revision above is aimed at using that U.
Or the 3 skyrangers, 1 talon, 1 Raven combo, which deploys all our NotSofter and has railguns for everyone, which I don't think we should discount when the enemy seems that they may be moving to fewer but heavier UFOs.
Maybe we could use the Revision to add an alien containment unit to our base? Or taking the TAV-2 and removing the 'fragile and decidly unergonomic' bits.
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Revision: Rockbreaker Missile
The new Rockbreaker missile is just a general improvement of its prior version. The same size as an old Rockslide, it uses an unstable small elerium power core (kind of like the XH2's) to replace the payload, allowing for greater damage against airborne craft. Thin alien alloy "armoring" on the missile doesn't and shouldn't allow it to survive any directed attempts at destruction of the missile, but should allow the missile to withstand conditions such as the anti-missile plasma shield for the times needed to hit its target.
It should be able to survive their plasma shielding (and we hope but not expect that the alloy coating allows for very limited armor penetration before detonation). And while we can't spend much time making a proper elerium warhead, even an unstable power core should do notably more damage than the prior conventional explosives.
TL;DR: Put an unstable alien power core as the warhead and super-thin alloy coating around our missiles to survive plasma shielding. Counters their missile counter while being some degree better at doing damage when they hit.
((to proactively stem doubts about the ease of an unstable elerium power core being easy enough to do in a revision: In XCOM2012 and XCOM2, the UFO power cores found in alien craft explode really easily if touched the wrong way; it won't be too amazing of a difference, but that means we can effectively weaponize elerium just by not trying as hard to keep it stable.
It's a good idea to invest more in proper elerium explosives in the future but this should still be a notable and very easy upgrade.))
REVISION
Upgrade IAC Teams (0):
Rockbreaker Missile (1): Chiefwaffles
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10ebbor10, does it mean that those railguns have no EP cost? Also, can we add even more railguns by spending E and reducing amount of missiles?
Yes to both.
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REVISION
Upgrade IAC Teams (0):
Rockbreaker Missile (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
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Y'know, looking at the specifications, the Talon's railguns are actually a really nice boon for us.
For comparison, the Raven has to drop three (1/3 total) of its missiles in order to fit one Phoenix gunpod. And the Phoenix isn't necessarily all that great itself - it's classified as a "light railgun".
The Talon, in addition to its 18 missiles, fits 2 upgraded railguns. So not only are its railguns better, but it can fit twice the number of these railguns as a Raven equipped with one phoenix, without losing any missiles.
I'm pretty excited to see it in action.
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REVISION
Upgrade IAC Teams (0):
Rockbreaker Missile (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman
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its also 50% more expensive.
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50% more expensive, FAR more than 50% more effective.
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You are correct.
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If we were to assume that one Phoenix gunpod is worth the same amount of imaginary arbitrary "combat points" that the 3 missiles it replaces (though it'd probably be worth more/is a different niche) and we don't even include the fact that the Talon's railguns are notably upgraded over the Phoenix gunpod, then the Talon is as lethal as two Ravens.
But again, that's a simplified version. The Talon's railguns are upgraded, and the Talon will be able to use them much more effectively than a Raven can use its Phoenixes, thanks to increased agility and better armor.
So not only is the Talon more deadly than two Ravens, it's much more durable (considering Ravens had no actual armor) and muuuuuuuch more maneuverable.
Personally, I think we should opt to use all Talons when possible. Ravens would still have a niche use in cases where the aliens are spreading out and sending a Talon somewhere is overkill, but when possible I just think Talons are flat-out better by an exponential factor.
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DOSSIER: AC-03 "MIMIC"
SECURITY CLASSIFICATION: X-1
Aliases
"Mimic"
"Skin Crawler"
Description
Large, man-shaped "octopus"-like land creature, able to near-perfectly mimic any object or entity similar or less in size. Able to mimic well-dressed humans, corpses, and additional objects. Body has numerous grasping tentacles, each capable of wielding equipment and weaponry such as individual plasma pistols.
Abilities
- Near-perfect mimicry of any existing object equal or lesser in size.
- Numerous tentacles capable of wielding weaponry.
- Immense physical strength and close-combat skills.
- Capable of grappling and attaching self to objects, such as the ceiling, for combat and ambush usage.
- Intelligence unknown.
- Vocal capabilities unknown.
Behavior
The exact intelligence level of an AC-03 is unknown, but observations have revealed that they are capable of tactics such as ambushing. They can skillfully wield multiple instances of alien weaponry in their numerous tentacles, each to the level of an AC-01 ██████'s abilities.
As seen in both combat encounters with AC-03s, their preferred method of engagement is ambushing our squads in close proximity. An ambushing AC-03 can neutralize a high number of operatives in CQC while unarmed at very high speeds before they can be eliminated. They mostly utilize the factor of surprise to their advantage via camouflaging capabilities.
Each individual AC-03 is extremely deadly, and a small number can eliminate entire XCOM squadrons.
Tactical Considerations
Amendment: Deployment of new Tactical Awareness Visor Mk. 2 is predicted in tests to be able to recognize and locate camouflaged AC-03 entities before they can strike. Use recommended in all engagements where AC-03 presence is suspected. Do not allow use of the TAV2 to decrease vigilance against camouflaged AC-03s, as exact effectiveness of the TAV2 is not yet known at this point in time.
No current method of recognizing AC-03 entities prior to de-camouflaging is known at this time. All XCOM Operatives are to maintain extreme vigilance at all times in operations where an AC-03 presence is either confirmed or expected. Operatives are to be spread out yet within visual distance, allowing for reaction time in case of sudden AC-03 attack. Direct melee encounters with any AC-03 entity reliably lead to near-immediate death, and operatives are to prioritize eliminating known AC-03s even at high risks of friendly fire against
ongoing victims of an AC-03 close-proximity attack.
Distance is to be maintained from AC-03s at all times. At range, AC-03s equipped with plasma weaponry can be dangerous but are similar to AC-01 ██████ in behavior and threat rating. At CQC ranges, the AC-03's limbs and physical strength allow it to reliably and easily overpower XCOM Operatives. Do not attempt to ever engage an AC-03 at close range. If an AC-03 is dangerously close, do not attempt to run away - it can outrun humans; instead, move away at reasonable speeds while prioritizing elimination of the AC-03 with an XH-2 ██████.
Operatives are to not "check" suspicious objects and entities for a camouflaged AC-03. There exist no known reliable methods of detecting an AC-03, and attempting to check for their presence directly will waste operatives' time.
Civilians in the proximity of a site with confirmed AC-03 presence are to be detained and brought to the nearest maximum-security classified holding cells of sponsor nations, in order to be analyzed for possible AC-03 infiltration. If a civilian can be proved with absolute certainty to not be a camouflaged AC-03, they may be released via standard XCOM Civilian Detainee Procedures.
Central Officer's Note
It may be possible that the aliens are utilizing Mimics to infiltrate high-value targets. We have no evidence of this, but the opportunity is obvious. Mimics are perfectly capable of passing as humans, allowing them access to anywhere a civilian could go. We don't believe a Mimic would be able to pass through standard security authorization (at least, not for a while) required to have any influence whatsoever on the XCOM project, but considering their capabilities they could possibly be able to locate VIP humans that are some degree of sympathetic to the aliens or that hold anything against XCOM.
I recommend watching for suspicious activity by sponsor nations and for consideration of authorizing XCOM investigation into the matter. It would also be prudent to investigate the Mimics' speech capabilities - can they talk like humans?
Encounters
Operation Crossroads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7661294#msg7661294): First encounter. After elimination of conventional AC-01 ██████ opponents, AC-03 Mimics camoflauged as humans and other regular objects ambushed on-site XCOM operatives. Two friendly squads succumbed before combined Skyranger and XH-2 ██████ fire eliminated all known AC-03 entities.
Operation Glass Pyre (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7669493#msg7669493): During elimination of enemy forces, two AC-03 Mimics camoflauged as corpses and one wielding plasma pistols hiding underneath a ceiling ambushed and eliminated all on-site operatives, resulting in Code Black.
Operation Forgotten Jester (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7674569#msg7674569): Preliminary unmanned reconnaisance revealed AC-03 Mimic presence on-site, transporting abductees to alien craft while un-camoflauged.
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Revision: Rockbreaker Missile
The new Rockbreaker missile is just a general improvement of its prior version. The same size as an old Rockslide, it uses an unstable small elerium power core (kind of like the XH2's) to replace the payload, allowing for greater damage against airborne craft. Thin alien alloy "armoring" on the missile doesn't and shouldn't allow it to survive any directed attempts at destruction of the missile, but should allow the missile to withstand conditions such as the anti-missile plasma shield for the times needed to hit its target.
It should be able to survive their plasma shielding (and we hope but not expect that the alloy coating allows for very limited armor penetration before detonation). And while we can't spend much time making a proper elerium warhead, even an unstable power core should do notably more damage than the prior conventional explosives.
TL;DR: Put an unstable alien power core as the warhead and super-thin alloy coating around our missiles to survive plasma shielding. Counters their missile counter while being some degree better at doing damage when they hit.
Very Hard : 5 - 2 = 3 Buggy Mess
The Rockbreaker missile replaces the conventional warhead of previous missile iterations with a volatile Elerium. And when the research department says volatile, they really mean volatile. A significant part of development time was spend on mandatory training for our personnel, ensuring that no one drops, bump or otherwise disturbs the ammunition, as any significant shocks or heat will result in detonation.
Armoring the missiles has gone somewhat better. Coating stuff in alien alloys is not that complex an operation, even though the rarity of the material does drive up the cost.
UFO DETECTED
Craft: 1 Small Lander, 1 Medium Lander, 1 Alien Fighter
Units: Skin crawler, Drones Sectoids
Destination: Australia
Altitude: Landed and engaging unknown enemy
We've spotted another large alien force landed in Australia, consisting out of 3 craft. Contrary to previous alien operations, they've know landed in an abandoned mine. UAV footage has shown an ongoing conflict between an unidentified armed group and the alien forces. Mimics (or Skincrawlers), sectoids and drones appear have all engaged the enemy, supported by what appears to be a sort of heavy mortar on top of the medium lander.
From what we can see, the aliens appear to be winning handedly, with enemy being pushed back or annihilated. Our information on the progress of combat is limited, as the alien fighter took down our drone.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Talon (Interceptor) : Integrating copious amounts of Alien Technology, the Talon is grav-wave propelled, heavily armored interceptor. Has 18 hard points for missiles and 2 nose mounts, fitted with a railgun by default. Cost : 3 VP
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Rockbreaker Missile: A missile coated in a very thin alien alloy and equipped with a volatile destabilized elerium powercell as warhead. Will detonate if exposed to shock or heat. Cost : 1 EP for 8.
TAV-2: A cobbled together combat visor that can identify and highlight aliens, including disguised ones. Fragile, cobbled together and decidly unergonomic.
Cost : 1 EP
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
4+1 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 VP Token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Intercept Phase
Turn 7
Challenge: Command has decided to catalogue our enemies equipment. The side which manages to make the best description/analysis of a piece of enemy equipment may win a price.
AABBCCDD
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It wasn't the best way to spend revision point. We have Phoenixes for trading EP for increased aerial capability.
Lets go for some more complex tactic than "create direct counter for X" and try to look at our EP\VP\UP situation next time.
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It wasn't the best way to spend revision point. We have Phoenixes for trading EP for increased aerial capability.
Lets go for some more complex tactic than "create direct counter for X" and try to look at our EP\VP\UP situation next time.
You're making some bad assumptions:
1: That using EP is universally the same in air and ground categories, regardless of what we spend it in.
2: That better missiles fill the same role as more railguns
3: That letting missiles get evaporated in a plasma shield is fine so long as we invent drink holders or some such crap that makes something else "better".
4: That the particular thing you're complaining about WASN'T an attempt to make the best use of our points.
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1: That using EP is universally the same in air and ground categories, regardless of what we spend it in.
Fail to see what in my words looks like that assumption
2: That better missiles fill the same role as more railguns
They do. More or less
3: That letting missiles get evaporated in a plasma shield is fine so long as we invent drink holders or some such crap that makes something else "better".
Invent non crap. I got it, my designs are awful. It is irrelevant. Having no creativity, just bruteforcing "hard counter" without even trying to produce original ideas and cunning plans is not only boring as hell, it is not very effective.
4: That the particular thing you're complaining about WASN'T an attempt to make the best use of our points.
I am complaining that it wasn't such attempt. Every design should be an attempt to make the best use of our points. But hey, why think about such thing when the most obvious way to play is to go for another hard counter.
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1: That using EP is universally the same in air and ground categories, regardless of what we spend it in.
Fail to see what in my words looks like that assumption
2: That better missiles fill the same role as more railguns
They do. More or less
3: That letting missiles get evaporated in a plasma shield is fine so long as we invent drink holders or some such crap that makes something else "better".
Invent non crap. I got it, my designs are awful. It is irrelevant. Having no creativity, just bruteforcing "hard counter" without even trying to produce original ideas and cunning plans is not only boring as hell, it is not very effective.
4: That the particular thing you're complaining about WASN'T an attempt to make the best use of our points.
I am complaining that it wasn't such attempt. Every design should be an attempt to make the best use of our points. But hey, why think about such thing when the most obvious way to play is to go for another hard counter.
Eh, wasn't phrased well. I blame sleep deprivation.
1. You're assuming that any EP we spend to improve aircraft is the same as any other EP...i.e., if we buy railguns it's just as effective as if we replace our missiles with better missiles.
2. This is so horribly false I don't even know why you'd bother. Railguns give our craft more staying power at the cost of alpha-strike killing power...and also require us to outmaneuver them, or be close enough in maneuvering capability.
3. I didn't actually intend that as a jab about your designs in particular, just the concept of "it's only completely broke so don't fix it", which is what not fixing missiles would've done for us. Any other design, so long as our aircrafts' main punch is out of commission, is just as relevant as a cupholder.
4. Yeah, that phrasing sucked. Sorry. Anyway, I'm telling you that, while you're complaining that it wasn't effective use of points, that it WAS probably the most effective way to make our points matter.
On being "innovative" or whatever instead of doing the "obvious" thing:
Look, it doesn't matter how innovative or forward-thinking we are if we lose all the battles NOW. Yes, it would be cool to advance tech in cool ways. No, a revision is not the thing to do it with, and ABSOLUTELY NO, is it a good plan to just ignore the enemy figuring out how to almost-hard-counter our missiles.
At a certain point, it doesn't matter how obvious it is if we need to get it done anyway. If you didn't like the plan to improve our technology (because this revision DID improve our tech) that was proposed, why not propose something else to fill the gigantic gaping hole in our air power (the basically-hard-countered missiles)? Or, you know, vote at all.
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If you didn't like the plan to improve our technology (because this revision DID improve our tech) that was proposed, why not propose something else to fill the gigantic gaping hole in our air power (the basically-hard-countered missiles)?
I consider Talon a big enough jump in our airpower to not go for missiles\other aerial weapons for a quite some time. Some of 24 fired missiles in the last turn did hit their targets, 2 talons will carry 36 ensuring that more will hit + they are better in dogfighting with integrated railguns, armor and better performance in the air.
Why would I propose anything that I don't consider necessary?
Or, you know, vote at all.
There are 5 active players in this thread, voting when three votes went to one proposal is a waste of digital ink
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hey sometimes inactive players hit the voting button and I usually change my vote depending on if it will spite madman/waffles or not.
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hey sometimes inactive players hit the voting button and I usually change my vote depending on if it will spite madman/waffles or not.
You see, you complain at me for not liking Strongpoint much. And that's wrong, because I disagree with the positions (when I disagree with him), not the person.
This right here? This, so far as I can tell, is what you accuse me and (somewhat less, I HOPE) Waffles of doing.
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Anyway, what is our plan? I think it can be a good turn for the first time ever use of SMART missiles.
We also need to decide should we send 2xtalon+2xskyrangers or talon + raven + 3x skyrangers. Both are ankward due to the different reasons. There are no setup I really like.
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Ugh.
The Very Hard is annoying (and in my opinion unfitting but whatever), but we'll get through. Especially since one Talon without any missiles (and keep in mind regular missiles are still somewhat effective against their countermeasures) is still an extremely dangerous craft. One Phoenix gunpod on a Raven is already rather effective. The Talon has two upgraded railguns in addition with extreme (relative to the raven) amounts of armor and vastly increased manueverability/speed - two things important for dogfighting with railguns.
So I'm not worried.
Anyways, the VP token is super useful here since it lets us field two Talons without stunting our land combat capabilities.
Operation Soaring Fall
Production/Logistics
Spend 1 VP Token on Talon.
2 Talons (3+2=5 VP), w/ 1 Phoenix (1 EP)
2 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix (1+0=1 VP; using extra 2 Phoenix from Talon)
2 NOTSOFTER Squads w/ XH-2 Rifles & TAV2s (2 UP; 4 EP)
Combined Arms: Bogeys 022 - 024 (Australia, Landed)
2 Talons w/ 1 Phoenix
2 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix
2 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-2 Rifles & TAV2s
Talons (unfortunately) may not see aerial combat but they should still be effective in clearing the air (namely of their fighter) and providing air support; in fact, if the Talons can (and they should considering how they can go backwards or sideways) hover then they can act as gunships with their railguns. And if the aliens do land, they have a nasty surprise.
They even gave us an advantage - not that we'd need it; we can focus on eliminating the fighter first so if they do retreat we'll only have to fight their landers.
With luck, we should be able to eliminate their Mortar-thing using Skyranger (or Talon) air support. In terms of pure infantry combat, I'm not worried at all. The SCOPE we have equipped on our railguns counters their drones, the TAV2 makes their Mimics unable to just delete our squads again, and in the past when deprived of their unique advantages (Mimic ambushes, drone ambushes [wow they like stealth]) we've been able to easily dispatch them.
Our infantry is better equipped and better trained, and the aliens no longer have their GGNORE advantages. Better yet, they'll have some degree of combat weariness/damage from fighting with EXALT. I bet we could easily do this even if we couldn't take out their Mortar.
Also Ebbor, does the Rockbreaker's flaw include the potential of detonating in its mount? If it does, what kind of damage would the Talon (armor and whatnot) suffer if an equipped Rockbreaker exploded while mounted?
Oh yeah and Ebbor, considering how it can go backwards/sideways, can the Talon hover in place effectively?
I've also made an alternate operation in case people want to use Rockbreaker missiles, though I plan on more directly addressing it once I get an answer from Ebbor regarding just how dangerous Rockbreakers are.
Operation Twisted Serpent
Production/Logistics
Spend 1 VP Token on Talon.
2 Talons (3+2=5 VP), w/ 1 Phoenix & 8 Rockbreakers (2EP)
2 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix (1+0=1 VP; using extra 2 Phoenix from Talon)
2 NOTSOFTER Squads w/ 2 XH-2 Rifles & 1 TAV2 (2 UP; 3EP)
Combined Arms: Bogeys 022 - 024 (Australia, Landed)
2 Talons w/ 1 Phoenix and 8 Rockbreakers
2 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix
2 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-2 Rifles & TAV2s
- Only 1 squad is equipped with TAV2 (honestly not a big deal at all; the TAV2 gets most of its benefit from us having any deployed at all);
- The non-phoenix Talon is equipped with 8 Rockbreakers.
OPERATION
Soaring Fall (1): Chiefwaffles
Twisted Serpent (0):
So to summarize the plans:
SOARING FALL - Send 2 Talons & 2 Skyrangers; fully-equip infantry, do not deploy Rockbreakers, and give 2 Phoenixes to Skyrangers & 1 Phoenix to a Talon. Spend VP Token on a Talon.
TWISTED SERPENT - Same as above, but only 1 squad equipped with TAV2 instead of both, and a Talon is equipped with 8 Rockbreakers.
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and in my opinion unfitting but whatever
1. Alien tech without token (and not tech that you already knew)
2. Integration of other known alien tech at the same time
3. Ping Pong Revision mitigation
Also Ebbor, does the Rockbreaker's flaw include the potential of detonating in its mount? If it does, what kind of damage would the Talon (armor and whatnot) suffer if an equipped Rockbreaker exploded while mounted?
A hit or near-miss from a plasma cannon (or, for that matter a regular cannon) is likely to detonate the warhead. On it's own, such a detonation would punch a hole through the outer armor and damage the ceramic, but not inflict any lethal damage. However, sympathetic detonations among all the remaining missiles are extremely likely, and can be expected to render the craft combat ineffective.
Oh yeah and Ebbor, considering how it can go backwards/sideways, can the Talon hover in place effectively?
It's capable of VTOL, but it's not particularly stable or happy hovering in place.
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While I consider trying for the missile upgrade worth it, in afterthought we might have wanted to wait till we had another elerium token before we tried to get an elerium warhead upgrade. Oh well. Still, it's a step in the right direction, because armored missiles are the way we'll want to go if they keep going for point defense, and even if it involves a stubbed toe we did get our foot in the 'alien explosives' door.
Plan wise, Operation Soaring Fall looks good to me. They've put all their ships into one basket, so seems like a fine time to hit that basket with our new aerial hammer and then mop up the remains. They've been throwing enough new air combat designs at us to cause us trouble, now it's our turn to cause them trouble.
Operation Soaring Fall (1): Happerry
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Yeah. In hindsight, it probably would have been a good idea to incorporate an alien equipment token. Though it personally feels like our existing experience with power supplies - emphasized by my wording of it as "unstable power supply" and not "elerium warhead" - should have covered it. But yes, alien equipment token would have been a good idea.
I also think that the best form of ping-pong revision mitigation would be stopping it at its source - instead of preventing easy undoing of hard counters, one should try to prevent easy hard counters in the first place.
But it's not that big of a deal. We got a pretty good result for a Buggy Mess and I'm choosing to see this revision as a step towards a really-awesome missile rather than a failed good missile. As I've said before, the Talon should be amazing. I've said this numerous times before, but I feel like I should point it out again. A single raven with a single Phoenix gunpod was still effective. Now we have an aircraft which is much faster and more agile meaning it can easily keep up and track alien craft with fixed weapon mounts; it can spend less time closing to engage; and in the rare occasions where it does get hit - which would normally disable/destroy a Raven - the armor just gets damaged.
Our ravens could also close in and engage with a railgun to do some damage without getting hit. The Talon has twice the railguns, each railgun is better, it gets hit way less, and when it does get hit it doesn't go down.
That and missiles are still effective and 2 Talons have as many missiles as 3 Ravens in addition to each Talon's two upgraded railguns.
You also somehow wiped my own vote, Happerry.
grumble grumble grumble
Operation Soaring Fall (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
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Operation Soaring Fall (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman
I think that we should consider spending that token on a Skyranger instead, since we're probably (hopefully) never going to replace the Skyranger, and can't break up the 3-point Talon into multiple pieces (like we could, say, three Ravens), even if we need to.
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Eeh.
I personally feel the Skyranger will be obsolete before the Talon would be. It wouldn’t ever be useless but just not potentially as useful.
The Talon is a very competently done platform for future improvement. It’s many mounts including two nose cannon mounts, heavy armor, size, and propulsion all are great for future improvement. It firmly uses nearly all alien tech meaning that we won’t have to worry in most possible cases about designing anything new to fit in new alien tech.
On the other hand, the Skyranger, while not bad in any way, is still conventional tech. It may have heavy armor for a pre-war human aircraft, but it could be vulnerable if they start focusing on shooting down our Skyrangers. It uses human propulsion, with human power supplies. It only fits one squad.
More importantly, I doubt the aliens put their base somewhere easily accessible. It could be underwater, underground, in space, or on another planet. The Skyranger can’t reach any of those places and revising the capability for it do so would be some degree of impractical.
In the original X-COM, there are three Transport craft - the Skyranger, Lightning, and Avenger. The latter two are fighter-transports using alien tech. Since we don’t suffer any long-term consequences from losing squads or aircraft, a fighter-transport could be a pretty viable idea. There are also plenty of other things we could do with new transports - TAV network integration, better air support, doing things like drop pods, and more.
In fact:
Future Design: Avenger (placeholder name)
(The "-L" suffix is for "Light" - this version is meant to be more of an air combat support craft, rather than the "ultimate aircraft" that UFO Defense has for its Avenger.)
The Avenger does to the Skyranger what the Talon did to the Raven.
First are the obvious improvements: armor, propulsion, and power. All three using the standard alien-inspired technology similar to the Talon. However, all three things are tuned to the level expected for a transport craft. We don't need as tanky armor or as much power or as fast propulsion as a Talon. The Avenger should be able to tank some serious combat damage compared to standard human aircraft, but we're mostly going to go with the proven strategy of "not getting shot at in the first place" for this one.
Gravity propulsion is similar to that of the Talon, but with some conditions changed for the Avenger. In case of the Avenger being shot out of the sky, we intend for the gravity propulsion to be able to keep everyone inside alive by negating the "fall" inside. Of course, if an Avenger is shot down it'll most likely be essentially completely destroyed. But the passengers and crew should still be alive and combat-ready.
The Avenger does have one minor improvement over the Talon in these areas: It can hover in place in a stable and proper fashion. This is mostly just a matter of pilot training, some tweaks to the automatic flight portions, and some minor refinements to the thrust vectoring.
No missile mounts of course, but a dual-railgun turret linked to the power core is placed on the bottom of the craft. Using standard Rockslide/TAV-based heuristics, it would be effective against aerial or ground targets. The Avenger's many sensors network with devices on the ground, such as TAV2s. The Avenger can see what our ground troops see and our ground troops can see what the Avenger sees. Almost literally "eyes in the sky". This makes air support a very useful tool, as the Avenger's turret can easily target any enemies being tracked by TAV2 devices instead of just blind-firing like a Phoenix-equipped Skyranger.
Thanks to the thinner & lighter hull (alien alloys sure do work wonders when we're not trying to make a literal flying tank) as well as the greater capabilities of the gravity propulsion, the Avenger is expected to be able to hold two squadrons worth of troops.
Troops can disembark or embark via gravlifts "floating" them from the ground into the cabin through an opening bottom/vice versa, or just through the standard Skyranger-style bay door.
Finally, the Avenger is equipped with a basic atmospherics system, is air-sealed, and the alloy is certified to be able to withstand great pressures. This should allow for it to venture anywhere we can imagine - into the seas, or even into space.
Actually, out of curiosity, Ebbor: while there aren’t certainly tokens we haven’t seen yet, but do you plan on potentially creating new token types of the aliens do anything particularly novel?
Doesn’t affect any planning really, but it’s just something that I think would be interesting to know.
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Good points. I did forget about the aliens base being in SPACE and all, so, oops.
By the way, it's in SPACE. Certainly. And we're going to need some fancy detection techs to find it. Probably starting with a SSTO spaceplane using gravitic tech, and/or a revision to the Talon that makes it airtight, which is all it should need to go orbital for short periods. Satellite-based detection system...and then missiles in space?
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While I consider trying for the missile upgrade worth it, in afterthought we might have wanted to wait till we had another elerium token before we tried to get an elerium warhead upgrade.
Using alien equipment token that we got from capturing Elerium grenades would help
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what's wrong with just using the new Talon with the reasonably effective missiles? it's probably two times better than the previous fighter/gunship.
2 of those Talons will utterly smash what the enemy has.
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Rockbreaker missiles aren't "reasonably effective". They're a crippling weakpoint. They mean that if an alien gun gets even a near miss or better against a Talon, then they effectively destroy the entire aircraft. Its armor and agility don't matter - if a single missile explodes (which is dangerously easy for them to do) then the whole Talon explodes.
It'd be like if we decided that the best way of defending our island base was to put really obvious red barrels filled with super-volatile explosives then tell our troops to take cover behind them. Sure, it's technically cover, but it hurts muuuuuch more than it helps.
Talons are fine by themselves. They can rely on their 2x upgraded railguns with some support from Rockslide missiles. Equipping them with Rockbreakers would drastically hurt their durability for a damage bonus we honestly don't really need.
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Rockbreaker missiles aren't "reasonably effective". They're a crippling weakpoint. They mean that if an alien gun gets even a near miss or better against a Talon, then they effectively destroy the entire aircraft. Its armor and agility don't matter - if a single missile explodes (which is dangerously easy for them to do) then the whole Talon explodes.
It'd be like if we decided that the best way of defending our island base was to put really obvious red barrels filled with super-volatile explosives then tell our troops to take cover behind them. Sure, it's technically cover, but it hurts muuuuuch more than it helps.
Talons are fine by themselves. They can rely on their 2x upgraded railguns with some support from Rockslide missiles. Equipping them with Rockbreakers would drastically hurt their durability for a damage bonus we honestly don't really need.
That's why I said the reasonably effective missiles that we already had. Just don't use upgraded rock breakers. You can use the old ones.
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We are using Rockslide missiles - they're the default.
But they're not "reasonably effective." Here's a quote from the last interception we had:
Twentyfour missiles pierce through the sky, eight towards the fighter, sixteen towards the larger UFO. Piercing straight through the alien ECM, the missiles fly straight towards their desperately dodging quarries. A few missiles fail to hold onto the nimble craft, but many more continue their deadly trajectory. The moment of impact comes, and both vessels are completely engulfed in flame. Talon Flight, still alive and unhurt, sheers.
Their celebration is short lived however, cut short as the UFO's burst from the big plasma clouds, unhurt save for a few scars in their armor. Plasma barrages from the fighter and the transport's turrets bear down upon Talon squad as they dive in closer to finish of the job. An unlucky hit clips Talon 2's wing, and her fighter plummets back to Earth, lacking a wing.
That's not reasonably effective.
We should actually have more missiles this time around. With one phoenix pod (-4 missiles) and 16 missiles per Talon, that's 32 missiles overall. A nice amount, but nowhere near enough to be relied upon or be considered - again - "reasonably effective." They should help, and that's why they're already included.
Ebbor: I just checked through the thread and it looks like my report on Mimics (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7693062#msg7693062) is the only one.
And yes, they're Mimics. Shut up. I don't care if the you/aliens gave them some stupid name like "Skin Crawlers". I refuse to believe otherwise. I did include an Alias section in the report now though.
Edit: Also made some finishing touches to the report. Namely censoring of certain things. Adds to the "official classified report" feel, I think.
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Ptw
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Operation Soaring Fall (4): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, Pavellius
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Probably too late but...
Operation Hellfire
Spend 1 VP Token on Talon.
Combined Arms: Bogeys 022 - 024 (Australia, Landed)
1 Talon
1 Raptor w/ Phoenix + SMART missile
2 Skyrangers w/ Phoenix
1 Skyrranger
2 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-2 Rifles
1 NOTSOFSTER w/ XH-2 rifles & TAVs
I believe that difference between 3 and 2 land units is very significant for the outcome of the battle. We are looking at aliens who focused all their ground forces there AND we see no new UFOs so I expect some new land tech. Furthermore, I believe that in the landed scenario one Talon is enough to challenge their fighter one on one. 1 Raptor used as a ground attack aircraft should help us to knock out that mortar. With railguns it still can help Talon in the aerial combat. Also, I think that TAV is a type of equipment that have diminishing results on getting more of them to the battlefield. 1 unit with them is sufficient.
While roaring soar is better at stopping aliens from going should they win
the land battle, my plan looks like the one that gives us more chances to succeed in the land battle.
Operation Soaring Fall (4): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, Pavellius
Operation Hellfire (1): strongpoint
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Operation Soaring Fall
Classification : X-1
"How had it all gone so terribly wrong so quickly" Corporal Ellis thought, as he looked over the remainder of his squad. The five men and women with him were all that remained of the 2 elite teams that had dropped in not 20 minutes prior. They'd expected to find a vulnerable enemy, weakened by the force they'd engaged here before their arrival. What they found was an abbatoir, the human combatants slaughtered to a man, and the aliens waiting for them as well.
Their Skyrangers had been torn from the sky, a missile bearing down on each of them and destroying them utterly just after they'd disembarked. They themselves had been surrounded, and then the big gun on the UFO had opened up, raining mortars down upon them. They'd fought back, of course, but the enemy was numerous.
A thundering explosion snapped Ellis brought back to reality. A piece of the building crumbled under the distant mortar impact, pushing dust and smoke through the corridors. Ellis snapped up his TAV, peering glancing down the big factory hall. In the distance, the aliens were gathering, flickering outlines appearing and disappearing in the dust as the machine tried to keep track of the skulking figures. He gestured, and the team fired. A few of the figures dropped, other breaking into a scramble for cover.
They had to move now, before the enemy closed in. Being pinned down meant death, either being blasted apart by the big cannon, or simply by being overwhelmed. He secured his TAV (carefully, the squad had only 2 left), then signaled his team to move.
In the skies above, Therekova cursed. Another alarm popped up on her visor, and she quickly dismissed it to join the others. Her Talon was wounded. The missile had torn a hole through the armor, had torn away her missiles, had even damaged a gravity array. But though the wounds may have nicked her wings and stripped her claws, she could still fly and fight. She still had a dangerous bite. Both internal railguns had survived the exchange perfectly intact.
Her prey, the larger type of fighter UFO, has not been unhurt either. They'd send a good 12 missiles into it's fiery plasma shield, and they'd hurt it. Small scars stood out all across it's hull, and one of it's plasma cannons was emitting smoke and fire. Even so, the small craft was quick and nimble. Chasing it down, even with her wingmate close at hand, was going to take a while.
She just hoped the troops on the ground would be able to hold out.
Ellis struggled to open his eyes. When had he decided to lie down? Where was the rest of the squad? He lifted his hand to his eye, wiping away the dust and blood. Blood? A flash of memory came back, the mortar tearing into his squad, the aliens storming towards him. Why was he still alive?
In the distance, the Alien UFO's silently lifted off the ground. Rushing towards the skies. Talons followed, leaving behind the smoldering wreck of the UFO they'd killed already. New explosions rippled of the UFO's hull, but too little, too late. The ships made speed, climbing vertically into the sky, leaving behind their damaged pursuers.
Loot retrieved : Exalt Intel, Alien Computer Core Token
Note: I feel the need to explain the combat results here, as they're counter intuitive. Your Talons are capable of defeating the enemy vessels. Not unharmed, and the new missiles are quite dangerous, but the result should be better than this update makes it seem. However, there are a set of rules that dictate what happens if a ship is shot down. Yours fell into the "Shot down but repairable category", which normally would mean a ground assault. However, since your ground assault already got stomped, that wasn't really an option.
So, that's why this occurred. The enemy escaped. The best way to fluff the mechanical results, in my opinion.
As for why I didn't upgrade to full destruction. The entire point of that rule is to ensure that people can't monofocus air (it's the same reason that the aliens can't just blow up all your troops transports until after they've (partially) dropped troops). Upgrading would defeat the point.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Talon (Interceptor) : Integrating copious amounts of Alien Technology, the Talon is grav-wave propelled, heavily armored interceptor. Has 18 hard points for missiles and 2 nose mounts, fitted with a railgun by default. Cost : 3 VP
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Rockbreaker Missile: A missile coated in a very thin alien alloy and equipped with a volatile destabilized elerium powercell as warhead. Will detonate if exposed to shock or heat. Cost : 1 EP for 8.
TAV-2: A cobbled together combat visor that can identify and highlight aliens, including disguised ones. Fragile, cobbled together and decidly unergonomic.
Cost : 1 EP
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
6 VP
3 UP
4+1 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 VP Token, 1 Exalt Intel Token , 1 Alien Computer Core Token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Design Phase
Turn 8
Month end : Gain 1 free VP; UP or EP point
Challenge: The victor of the Contest is ChiefWaffles. He recieves 1 free token, that can be spend to get 1 point worth of any design for free, forever. He also gets a snippet.
AABBCCDD
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...
Personally I feel a better way to force not mono-focusing is a lack of tokens if you blow everything to tiny pieces, instead of having them escape the now-really-upgraded fightercraft that we poured effort into. Unless the aliens got nothing from them escaping, which would suit me (and presumably the mechanics, seeing as how we stomped them in the air battle/they can't make it back to orbit without getting shot to pieces) much better than "by the way you get almost nothing and they escape anyway".
Or, you know, make destruction something that actually occurs, since we almost never seem to get complete destruction of enemy aircraft, even though there's no logical way for even gravity-manipulating alien tech to survive a fall, especially not when any sign of recovery SHOULD lead to them getting shot repeatedly by our presumably-not-stupid fighter pilots. Faking a kill (faking a fatal descent) is one of the oldest tactics in the dogfighting book. If they're going to land soft, our pilots are presumably not going to stop shooting until they hit the dirt. This last complaint, obviously, only applies when you have clear aerial superiority. Which we do.
Did we at least figure out how those missiles track us? Or at least confirm that they're not using radar?
I'd presume we have flares on these things (all warplanes and most military cargo planes do), did anyone try those?
As for our design... I dunno, maybe a tank? If they want to play with heavy artillery that somehow blows up the entire area over and over again, enough to destroy two entire squads, I guess we should just retaliate in the same way.
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So it looks like they got inspired by our Skyrangers providing fire support for our ground troops, and either made a new UFO with a mortar or upgraded one of their current UFOs with a Mortar. That'll be annoying.
Idduno, maybe make a railgun tank that point defense fires the mortar shells out of the air? I've been wanting to get HWP tech out for a while anyway, so we can make an Electrolaser HWP/SHIV and start lightning-bolting people into stunned captivity.
Or we could pass on it this turn and make an alien alloy transport. We already have proof that an alien alloy vessel can survive being shot by the missiles that struck down our Skyrangers, and if we build a railgun into the Alloy-Ranger instead of having it be an optional add on, the Alloy-Ranger could maybe use said railgun to blow the alien's mortar off their craft. If probably with some collateral damage to the UFO, but that's better then loosing the ground fight, right?
Or on the gripping hand, since we still wonish when we both threw a 'everything in one group' task force at each other, we could go make that new base. Which hopefully will give us more tokens, which should mean that if this happens against next attack round, we might be able to afford another Talon or maybe a Raven+potentially more troops.
Token wise, I'd like to spend our monthly token on a Vehicle Token, which would allow us to send out three Skyrangers+two Talons, instead of two and two like we had this turn. Anyone have a better idea/counter argument to that?
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Personally I feel a better way to force not mono-focusing is a lack of tokens if you blow everything to tiny pieces, instead of having them escape the now-really-upgraded fightercraft that we poured effort into. Unless the aliens got nothing from them escaping, which would suit me (and presumably the mechanics, seeing as how we stomped them in the air battle/they can't make it back to orbit without getting shot to pieces) much better than "by the way you get almost nothing and they escape anyway".
Not getting Tokens is not really a deterrent when your method also allows you to deny the enemy tokens.
That said, having their escape ship torn apart resulting in a loss of loot is a thing, it happened a few turns before. Also, if the enemy gets unlucky and isn't spotted until after their landing, then chances are you kill part (or all) of their ground troops in the air.
Or, you know, make destruction something that actually occurs, since we almost never seem to get complete destruction of enemy aircraft, even though there's no logical way for even gravity-manipulating alien tech to survive a fall, especially not when any sign of recovery SHOULD lead to them getting shot repeatedly by our presumably-not-stupid fighter pilots. Faking a kill (faking a fatal descent) is one of the oldest tactics in the dogfighting book. If they're going to land soft, our pilots are presumably not going to stop shooting until they hit the dirt. This last complaint, obviously, only applies when you have clear aerial superiority. Which we do.
The enemy being hit non-fatally and recovering is a relatively rare event, having occurred twice. It's also a thing that you're going to have to live with, just like the enemies have to live with the fact that they can't bomb you into smithereens from orbit.
Fundamentally, in order to prevent a mono-focus on air from winning, there must be things that air can not stop . This means that ships will slip past your radar (but not entirely, I don't want the reverse either), or that sometimes a dead ship gets fixed. It also means that XCOM has to live with the fact that whatever they do, they don't get to kill (all) of your troops by blowing up Skyrangers.
Did we at least figure out how those missiles track us? Or at least confirm that they're not using radar?
Missiles were unresponsive to common countermeasures, suggesting a multi-sensor approach and a fairly advanced guidance system. Recovery from the shot down fighter makes it seem that the missiles are quite big and complicated. They basically acted like fully fledged miniature suicide UFO's.
As for our design... I dunno, maybe a tank? If they want to play with heavy artillery that somehow blows up the entire area over and over again, enough to destroy two entire squads, I guess we should just retaliate in the same way.
Bugger. Adjusting that part of the description.
They have one mortar (mounted on top of the big UFO) that fires relatively irregularly. They're just very good at aiming it.
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I really don’t understand how a single infrequent grenade mortar managed to obliterate our squads. I’d expect higher levels of tactical competence from NOTSOFTER. At least a strategy that isn’t “stay clustered in one place and wait for a mortar to blow you up.” Hell, if the mortar is so good then why aren’t their grenades annihilating squads?
It does not feel like a single mortar firing a grenade every now and again should be able to decide the battle so decisively.
A new transport could work. Make it resistant to the missiles and better able to provide ground support.
We could use the computer core and an equipment token (I think we have one?) to make a point defense module against both their apparent god-like mortar and their suicide UFOs.
We could copy their plasma shield thing and use it to counter grenades and missiles while also somewhat reducing the effectiveness of other weapons.
I kind of like this one. Seems like it could be a good entrance point into Tier 3 weapons, and it makes sense with our current experience.
Also possible is designing a new base using the computer token.
Finally, another good one is just personal armor. We have enough alloy experience that a token is definitely not required, and XCOM alien alloy is just thet good.
Or we could use our Unit Experience token to design “don’t somehow get obliterated by a single mortar.”
I’m mostly annoyed because the sheer effectiveness of their mortar makes it seem like a counter is required when a mortar isn’t really something you can properly counter.
Also if their missiles are small suicide ufos then we can at least assume that they’re spending VP on what amounts to “a small fighter rigged to explode.” They definitely get more than one for one VP, but it’s nice to know.
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Personally I feel a better way to force not mono-focusing is a lack of tokens if you blow everything to tiny pieces, instead of having them escape the now-really-upgraded fightercraft that we poured effort into. Unless the aliens got nothing from them escaping, which would suit me (and presumably the mechanics, seeing as how we stomped them in the air battle/they can't make it back to orbit without getting shot to pieces) much better than "by the way you get almost nothing and they escape anyway".
Not getting Tokens is not really a deterrent when your method also allows you to deny the enemy tokens.
My problem with this logic is that it basically says "you win half the battle, they win half the battle, you get nothing, they get something". At least, it does in this case, with the minor exception of the one we shot down.
What is the aliens' gravity manipulation capable of? And someone please explain to me why we can't just utilize gravity generators to crush them like a bunch of tin cans, because otherwise that's what my next proposal is going to start us down the road to doing.
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I really don’t understand how a single infrequent grenade mortar managed to obliterate our squads. I’d expect higher levels of tactical competence from NOTSOFTER. At least a strategy that isn’t “stay clustered in one place and wait for a mortar to blow you up.” Hell, if the mortar is so good then why aren’t their grenades annihilating squads?
It does not feel like a single mortar firing a grenade every now and again should be able to decide the battle so decisively.
A single mortar + an overwhelming numerical advantage. They outnumbered you more than 3 to 1.
As for why grenades don't do the same thing, sectoids are not that good at throwing. Also, higher yield in the mortar.
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I'm pretty sure the Mortar fires bigger shells then they have grenades. That's usually one of the points to Mortars.
A single mortar + an overwhelming numerical advantage. They outnumbered you more than 3 to 1.
Ack. This means that with the ships they sent (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7693187#msg7693187), between the small lander and the medium lander they had at least six units of aliens deployed. The mortar might be more flashy and attention getting, but I suspect that this was a bigger reason why we lost on the ground, and it encourages me to go for the 'make a new base, get more points' approach this turn and then see if we can revise up some alloy armor to make the lethal splash damage radius smaller. And maybe make those small pistols they seem to insist on using less effective too. Right now I think we're in a position where whenever someone gets a solid hit they die, so if we can soak a hit or two that'd be good.
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-snip-
A single mortar + an overwhelming numerical advantage. They outnumbered you more than 3 to 1.
As for why grenades don't do the same thing, sectoids are not that good at throwing. Also, higher yield in the mortar.
This is not sufficiently reflected in the battle report.
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Anyway, I'm just going to throw up a base design or two.
Chinese Industrial Park
Hidden in the backwaters of China, this base takes advantage of the multitude of cheap, easily conscripted labor that is also easily concealed with the traditionally 'delicate' Chinese views towards censorship to create a powerful production center of airframes, air weapons, and infantry equipment for XCOM's use. It also has a small lab setup to help put new prototypes, probably developed elsewhere, into production, a barracks to host the base's security troopers, and several concealed missile launchers and ground to air defense railguns to help ward off enemy base attacks. A single solitary hanger and airstrip allow air missions to be staged out of this base in an emergency. As well, a small experimental facility is also built to hold any alien captives taken in good health (until they are interrogated) and to prevent them from committing suicide and a minor dedicated exterior agency interaction facility is added on in case outsiders need to be worked with. However, these last two facilities are marked to be built last, and only if there is sufficient extra time, on the build plans.
American Mountain Base
With most of the facilities hidden underneath and inside one a fairly large mountain, this base hosts a powerful and high tech production center that takes advantage of easy access to high technology experts and designers in America to build and prototype the most advanced gear that XCOM needs with all the speed made possible with modern automation technology. These facilities, buried as they are, are armored in literally tons of rock, and defended by a team of security troopers that put the bases natural fortifications to best use. The base also has a set of missile launchers and railcannon turrets to help ward of air attacks, normally concealed, and a small lab for use in prototyping new designs. A small hanger is attached for emergency use, but the base is not designed as an offensive installation. As well, a small experimental facility is also built to hold any alien captives taken in good health (until they are interrogated) and to prevent them from committing suicide and a minor dedicated exterior agency interaction facility is added on in case outsiders need to be worked with. However, these last two facilities are marked to be built last, and only if there is sufficient extra time, on the build plans.
Brazil Jungle Base
Hidden deep beneath the jungle canopy, and half buried besides, this base takes utmost advantage of it's backwater positioning to conceal its network of workshops and factories from interested eyes. Here, new gear, both air and ground, is built for XCOM's use, and some prototype equipment put into production with the help of a small research station. Also hidden beneath the jungle canopy are a network of missile launchers and ground to air mass drivers, as well as a hanger with an attached airstrip (which is the only part of the base viewable from above, given the needs of vehicles to take off from it). A few scattered barracks facilities hosts a defensive group of security personal to ward off lost explorers and serve as a last line of defense if the aliens attack. As well, a small experimental facility is also built to hold any alien captives taken in good health (until they are interrogated) and to prevent them from committing suicide and a minor dedicated exterior agency interaction facility is added on in case outsiders need to be worked with. However, these last two facilities are marked to be built last, and only if there is sufficient extra time, on the build plans.
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I'm pretty sure the Mortar fires bigger shells then they have grenades. That's usually one of the points to Mortars.
Possible, but I honestly doubt that they're notably bigger than alien grenades. It's a mortar attached to the top of a UFO, for crying out loud.
Okay. We have two options, the way I see it:
Fighter-Transport. So we have a better way to mediate differences in VP/UP. If 1 Talon is underkill and 2 is Overkill, then we can do a 3 VP fighter-transport that lets us get the proper air advantage without hurting our ability to transport troops. It sure works for the aliens.
New base. Possible. Just increasing our production points. I'm hesitant about this one because we already have 2 extra production points this turn and honestly Ebbor's been pretty conservative with letting us "buy" production points with designs. We'd get some more points, but I'm not confident it'd be enough to be worth it just now. We should do this soon, though.
I don't think we should bother fixing Rockbreakers in our revision just yet, by the way. According to what Ebbor said, we pretty much had a very definitive advantage in the air - it just got diminished by our loss at ground. We should revise something for infantry instead.
Also looking back it's almost definite that they're in space. Considering that all their UFOs are coming from, y'know, space. Kind of a giveaway, that.
Design: Falcon Fighter-Transport ('cuz falcons have talons)
Alien Computer Core Token
At some point, an engineer realized we have a superlight superstrong alloy, gravity-based propulsion, and a notable logistics problem regarding infantry transport. This is the result of a coffee-fueled all-nighter and a whole lot of "WHY DIDN'T WE DO THIS SOONER?!"
The Falcon Fighter-Transport is our second hybrid craft, allowing us to truly start getting familiar with the way stuff works. We're not aiming for any big improvements over the paradigm-shift that was the Talon. It's mostly the same components. Some bigger, some smaller. But the same components nonetheless. We just know what we're doing this time and are not trying acting like children trying to make a CPU with their parents' soldering kit.
It's big. We estimate/hope that it can carry two squads. A dual-railgun turret linked to the power core is placed on the bottom, near the front. The auto-loading systems have been refined to allow for a greater rate of fire, and the barrel length (among other things of course) increased to allow for greater range. The angles of fire are done in such a way to allow the turret to serve as a very competent weapon in both interceptions and close air fire support.
Most importantly, this turret is linked to a new computer core based on an alien computer core salvaged earlier (and some tips/"what to never do" from the salvaged remains of the TAV1 project regarding to alien computers). The computer core is uplinked to the Falcon's many sensors as well as sensors on the ground (which are, at this point, mostly TAV2s). So not only can the turret "see" whatever our soldiers see, our soldiers see what the Falcon sees from the air above. Expert fire control from the computer allows for expert precision aiming. A soldier on the ground practically has to point at an enemy highlighted by the TAV2 (which should be more effective w/ aerial sensor coverage) and they'll be smited hit by a railgun shell from above. Furthermore, the computer should allow for better targeting and engagement of/with UFOs in interceptions.
But yes. Aims to carry 2 squads, the standard Grav Pulse Drive, standard Elerium power core, standard composite (like the Talon) alloy armor, no missiles (to save space), and a bottom-mounted turret with two slightly-upgraded railguns for interception and ground support. It has an advanced computer core to get the most out of this turret in interceptions/air support and to uplink targeting data between it and TAV2s on the ground in a mutually beneficial arrangement.
While we really shouldn't get the Falcon shot down (and it'd be hard to do so), it shouldn't experience tremendous casualties if it does. A simple mode of the grav drive can help counteract the impact with the ground, we have really really good armor, and we know from experience that alloyed transport craft do fairly well when shot out of the sky thanks to the aliens' lander craft.
As a side note, the Falcon is rated for space travel; which is remarkably easy thanks to the grav drives. It wouldn't be tremendously simple and no super long term missions, but it should allow for missions in, y'know, space. We'll work on the "letting our infantry not suffocate and die" part of space missions later. ((If this isn't trivial for some obscure reason just forget this part.))
TL;DR: New hybrid fighter-transport. Uses a 2x railgun turret w/ computer core uplinked to other sensors for maximum targeting in both interceptions+ground support. Holds two squads. Otherwise pretty much just the Talon again.
Okay. Think about this:
1.) We know how to make aircraft with majority alien tech.
2.) Something with this amount of alien tech with any consideration given towards interception/dogfighting/whatever is going to be really good at it. Maybe not as good as the Talon, but still really really good; better than a Raven. Gravity drives and superarmor and railguns do that.
3.) Alien tech is practically biased towards a fighter transport. Alien Alloy is actually really light. Not "light for its strength", but it's light. I'm going off of memory, but in XCOM 2 the aliens use alien alloys to make the bulk of their infantry rifles because of how light it is in comparison to other materials used to make weapons. Gravity propulsion can make up for increased weight even despite that.
!!! 4.) The Talon was made with scrapped-together experience of some of its component elements. The Falcon will be made with all the experience we've gained from the Talon. That will help a lot.
I'm not saying that the Falcon will/should be better than the Talon, but it should be able of giving us significant aid in interceptions. Just not quite as much as a talon.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (0):
Falcon Fighter-Transport (1): Chiefwaffles
Also Ebbor, what does the "Exalt Intel" Token do and why do we have it?
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Possible, but I honestly doubt that they're notably bigger than alien grenades. It's a mortar attached to the top of a UFO, for crying out loud.
Idduno, compare an oldcom alien grenade to a blaster bomb. The alien grenade has 90 explosive power, and the Blaster Bomb has 200. Meanwhile, in newcom, alien grenades do 5 damage, and the blaster launcher does 9 damage. Even assuming that a mortar shell isn't as strong as a blaster bomb strike, that still leaves easy room for a shell to be at least 50% more powerful then an alien grenade. And if we compare the alien grenades to normal grenades, in both games they're just a hair under being twice as strong as a normal grenade.
Take into account the lots greater range a mortar is going to have over manually throwing grenades, and doing the lowball guess of 'only 50% stronger then a normal alien grenade', that still leaves it plenty of space to be deadly and annoying.
...Even if it probably isn't as deadly as being outnumbered 3 to 1.
I almost want to suggest putting a Railgun turret on top of the Falcon Fighter-Transport and seeing if we can add in anti-mortar point defense to that design. Something like that would probably also help if the aliens start deploying bomber drones in ground combat or something alike too, but I think that adding something like that to our first alloy transport when it already has a ground fire support turret might be an extra feature to far.
Also Ebbor, what does the "Exalt Intel" Token do and why do we have it?
I've been assuming that we have the Exalt Intel token because of the bolded line in the mission description I've copied out below.
We've spotted another large alien force landed in Australia, consisting out of 3 craft. Contrary to previous alien operations, they've know landed in an abandoned mine. UAV footage has shown an ongoing conflict between an unidentified armed group and the alien forces. Mimics (or Skincrawlers), sectoids and drones appear have all engaged the enemy, supported by what appears to be a sort of heavy mortar on top of the medium lander.
Maybe we can use it when we get around to making a 'check for alien bases/infiltration/mind control/Cult of Sirus presence/Exalt Cell presence' mission as any kind of intel token would seem useful for that?
Also, looking back, it seems the Mortar got mentioned before we sent troops out. Pity none of us noticed (or at least mentioned) it before hand, but honestly I'm still pretty sure the major reason we lost was being outnumbered so much.
Also looking back it's almost definite that they're in space. Considering that all their UFOs are coming from, y'know, space. Kind of a giveaway, that.
Pretty much, yes. Depending on how the design goes, we could revise up a 'point a really big telescope at any UFO which gets away and see how long we can track it' plan.
...And or put up our own Hubble to do such once we've got easy spacelift.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (1): Happerry
Falcon Fighter-Transport (1): Chiefwaffles
Vote wise, I think either of a new base or an alloy transport will be pretty helpful, but I really want to get a new base out just so we have data on how much having more bases helps with resources. (And therefor help us figure out how important it is to smash the alien bases when they start building them on earth). Voting for the Brazil one because I'm hoping that the previous attempt to make one in Brazil will make it at least a bit easier.
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I agree with Happerry. Also, I think the enemy is more likely to attack Brazil in the future because they have already made progress there. Obviously, having a base there will help is defend it.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (2): Happerry, Pavellius
Falcon Fighter-Transport (1): Chiefwaffles
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-snip-
A single mortar + an overwhelming numerical advantage. They outnumbered you more than 3 to 1.
As for why grenades don't do the same thing, sectoids are not that good at throwing. Also, higher yield in the mortar.
This is not sufficiently reflected in the battle report.
Yeah, this turn's battle report is crap. I know. Feel free to ask questions.
It's a mortar attached to the top of a UFO, for crying out loud
Pretty big UFO though.
Also Ebbor, what does the "Exalt Intel" Token do and why do we have it?
The aliens attacked what appears to be an EXALT group. Why, you don't know. But you scared them off before thry took everything with them, so you ran away with some of their loot.
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Okay. In that case, we should do this or another direct-infantry-benefit for our revision:
Revision: Investigatory Unit
Things are not always as they seem.
Sure, maybe before the invasion we could have entrusted local government intelligence agencies to handle this. But they’re simply no longer up to the task.
Now we have secretive independent paramilitary organizations and shape shifting aliens to worry about. We can’t rely on old Earthborne methods any more.
An investigatory Unit is a NOTSOFTER trained to manuever this new world of intelligence. While making something like this form the ground up in a revision would normally be difficult, we have a number of advantages. We take those already showing potential in the relevant fields from existing agents [Unit Experience Token]. We take the data that EXALT left behind to get a different viewpoint into these matters. We can rely on the fact that base recruitment requirements - how we recruit from top militaries and intelligence agencies ((I assume this is how we work)) - and NOTSOFTER mean our men should already be somewhat experienced and/or easy to teach on the matter.
Simply put, an Investigatory Unit is a NOTSOFTER squad with training in intelligence affairs, investigation, interrogation, and the most up-to-date briefings on anything that could possibly be relevant.
Their goal will be to locate alien/EXALT corruption and influence, to capture suspects (we hope that they can use ol’ fashioned brute force for this now - and they definitely can for humans - but while we hope it works, we don’t necessarily expect aliens to be easy capturable without special tools.), gather intelligence and information, and if possible, purge corrupting influences.
TL;DR: Use our relevant tokens to train/specialize a NOTSOFTER squad in intelligence-gathering/espionage.
Should help locate alien/exalt influence, get us intelligence (cool tokens/base locations/infiltration warnings/advanced warnings of plans/etc.) capture humans and maybe-but-probably-not aliens, and help purge bad influences.
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Drooling emoji here.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (2): Happerry, Pavellius
Falcon Fighter-Transport (1): Chiefwaffles
Investigatory Unite (2): Chiefwaffles(?), Blood_Librarian
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It’s a revision, not a design.
All it is is “use our tokens to give sole NOTSOFTER units training in investigation/espionage.”
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Colombia jungle base :
Unit experience token, Exalt intelligence token, Alien equipment token
This base is buried underground like any self respecting X-Com base would do. Colombian base is created with the focus on training soldiers for different theaters and different types of war. Training grounds in harsh jungles, virtual reality combat simulators (heavily benefiting from TAV technology), computerized (de)briefing room and, most importantly, battle hardened instructors allows effective training of both X-COM operatives and our friends from Inter Agency cooperation Teams (Yet IACTs train only in aboveground jungles to avoid information leaks) rapid training of troops. No less important part of the base is an intelligence center created to analyze past and predict future actions of alien enemies and Exalt. One of the goals of the center is finding signs of alien\Exalt influence in Earth governments and NGOs.
Another important part of the base is an alien containment center built to support alien biology on what we know about them from autopsies and studying their equipment.
Needless to say that, despite its focus on intelligence and training. base also has defensive weapons, manufacturing and research facilities, hangars and other necessary elements of an X-COM base
Why I think that it is better than alternative suggestion
1) We got a monthly token and reward token, it is not that important to go for the production base.
2) I dislike the idea of building base in Brazil A LOT. They had a recent successful mission there, I will be surprised if this country isn't infested by mimics (do you really think those bastards are combat-only units? I am sure they are spies first). Also, Exalt can have supporters there because of high panic. Colombia is close enough to send our aircrafts and far enough to not be detected by Spies in Brazil
3) Not using tokens on a base is a crime.
4) Alien containment is a useful thing, If we go for a base I want one there
5) I still want to build up on Inter Agency cooperation teams, I believe those have more potential than we think, especially if we'll develop anti-Exalt or anti infiltrated mimics missions.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (2): Happerry, Pavellius
Falcon Fighter-Transport (1): Chiefwaffles
Investigatory Unite (1): Blood_Librarian
Colombia Jungle Base: (1) Strongpoint
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Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (2): Happerry, Pavellius
Falcon Fighter-Transport (1): Chiefwaffles
Colombia Jungle Base: (1) Strongpoint, Blood_Librarian
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2) I dislike the idea of building base in Brazil A LOT. They had a recent successful mission there, I will be surprised if this country isn't infested by mimics (do you really think those bastards are combat-only units? I am sure they are spies first). Also, Exalt can have supporters there because of high panic. Colombia is close enough to send our aircrafts and far enough to not be detected by Spies in Brazil
I agree, but I think we should locate your base in Argentina instead of Columbia, because Argentina is an XCOM supporter.
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One tick of panic is not “high panic.” We also have many ways to combat subversion if it exists, and a base is the number one way to do that.
They consistently target Brazil. It’d be the best place to have a base for easy and quick response and counteracting of alien activity - outright or subtle - that takes place in or near Brazil. It’d be silly to ignore Brazil because it’s the most threatened. That’d be like sending a new car to the dump because it has a visible scratch on it.
Also, strongpoint’s base proposal is unneeded and we can do the same thing in a much easier revision while doing less tokens - the revision I already posted.
Also spending so many tokens on a base - especially when the tokens don’t have that much relevance (namely the alien equipment one) - is just throwing those tokens away. Weren’t you complaining about irrelevant tokens before, strongpoint?
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We're not ignoring it. As you said, brazil has been consistently targeted, and if their consistent targeting results in the enemy discovering our base, we lose assets then if we put it in a neighboring country that would have for all intents and purpose the same amount of coverage then litterally right in the balst radius of their assaults.
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The enemy knowing about the rough location of a secondary base is not the end of the world. A base in a neighboring country wouldn’t be able to target UFOs with base defenses either.
Hell, they have an idea of where our main base is - we launched missiles from it at them - and they haven’t done a thing about it.
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Gravitational Pulse Shielding
These new missiles are...annoying. To counteract them, a new prototype is put into development. For simplicity's sake, it is not intended to be integrated into anything...yet. This device works by creating a "pulse" of extreme gravity outside the shielded object, triggered to when the missile enters the pulse zone. This gravitational pulse is both powerful and filled with random changes of gravitational field direction (but at a uniformly extreme strength, resulting in a remarkable combination of crushing and tearing of both the insides and outsides of the missile as each piece experiences a gravitational force in a different direction from other pieces near it, rendering it nonfunctional. Or, you know, exploding it outside the craft.
We can start with this, and then work our way into gravitational weaponry, which does the same thing but at longer range.
Or we could do some actual, decent infantry armor. Integrated (and less delicate) TAV with some alien alloy armor ought to do a lot of good for the infantry, who keep getting shot to bits.
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Ooh, I was thinking of that too.
I’ll make an infantry armor design later today. Should be a very valid option as alien alloy tends to be very good at resisting blunt force. Somehow.
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The gravitational weaponry, or the integrated infantry armor (which should really only be a revision)
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No, proper infantry armor would not be a revision simply going by XCOM rules.
In the game, alloy personal armor is a research task directly on par with the second tier of rail guns, and it’s mostly just alloy plates in the shape of armor.
It’ll be somewhat easy for us compared to the railgun thanks to our better railgun experience, but not easy enough for a revision.
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Can we PLEASE get away from that ridiculously false belief?
If it's not hard at all, it's... not hard at all. Basically, if it makes sense that it'd be Easy, then it will be Easy. We could literally take a WORLD WAR TWO FLAK JACKET and just replace the plates with alien alloy (And some adhesive so they don't fall out after a plasma strike, but, *duh*) and it'd be pretty effective, and Trivial as a revision.
We could certainly get away with a Normal revision by just replacing the ceramic plates from a standard heavy-duty modern ballistics vest with alien alloy plates, again possibly with some adhesive or asbestos-based fiber or something so it doesn't burn away when hit. Either way, it's not going to be design levels of difficulty since we already have the prerequisites of:
1. Knowing how to make alien alloy
2. Knowing how to work alien alloy
There's ZERO difference between making infantry armor plates and making aircraft armor, except for how big a piece you're cutting. That's it. It ain't rocket science, people.
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Yes. Because Aerospace armor, armor that is designed with aerodynamics and completely different environmental conditions and even compositions can totally be just. Cut out, and then shaped into plates, and then just slapped onto a dudes armor.
If we want to replace all the plates we have on our current armor with new alien-based ones, I would assume that they take completely different methods of manufacture to make the best possible optimized set of armor for our soldiers.
Yes, we could just do the equivalent of taking off all the armor of a tank and welding a different alloy on it, but Why?
It would be on some level a jury rigged solution, a stop gap until we fabricate a special set of powered armor that would deserve the design.
It would be completely within reason to fabricate a set of powered armor using some type of pneumatics, and then cover it in plate armor of Alien Alloys. That sounds worthy of a design, and would be completely within reason for our ability.
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You should all know by now the level of similarity with the XCOM games.
In order to unlock Carapace Armor in XCOM 1, which looks like this:
(https://www.ufopaedia.org/images/a/a3/Carapace_F-Front_Tags.png)
You need alien weapon fragments (alien equipment token), then you need to research Alien Materials (which unlocks a crappy +1 HP vest item), then, once you have enough alloys (alloy token), you need to research Carapace Armor.
Titan Armor - power armor- comes in the end-game with Carapace Armor as one of its prerequisites. It’d be out of the question for us to design power armor now since we have exactly zero experience in the actual “power armor” part. The problem with power armor is not the material used.
If we want to make alloy armor that will actually help our troops, we need an actual armor design. Something equivalent to Carapace Armor. We can’t get that on a revision to heavy aircraft armor plating.
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...Really?
That's what you're going with?
The shape is different and thus OHMYGOODNESSIT'SADESIGNFORSURE!
I already pointed out that the shape you're making is very similar. Heck, it might even be easier to make the infantry stuff, because there won't be any radar-absorbent coatings or extra-smooth finishes that modern super-fighters might make use of.
But my point remains. Shaping alien alloy for an aircraft and then shaping the EXACT SAME ALLOY (since it's ALIEN ALLOY, not ALIEN ALLOY [AIRCRAFT VERSION]) for infantry is not significantly different. Not in the actual forging process (whatever that may be with magic alien stuff), at least. Not applying any fancy coatings to the infantry armor ought to be easy enough.
Once again: It might even be easier to make infantry stuff, because the quality control can be a whole lot looser without negative impact on performance. It wouldn't be jury-rigged, and it wouldn't be insufficient. It would, however, be unpowered, by with the aliens' absurdly lightweight alloy, we could probably go borrow a whole set from a museum the design philosophy of Gothic plate and make full-body armor that's not actually very heavy (Most medieval armor suits used on the battlefield weighed less than 40, 45 pounds all told, and this weight was distributed across the body making it easy to carry. A man in plate could do everything he could do without the plate, with a couple of not-crippling exceptions).
And that'd be revision-tier stuff too, because it's taking a premade design and just changing the material used.
And in reply to Chiefwaffles:
Why in the heck do you two think we're changing the material AT ALL? Last I checked, the only difference between the alloy used on the aircraft and the alloy used everywhere else is the AMOUNT, not the actual material itself.
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You seem to be somehow missing literally my entire point.
We have not ever made infantry armor before.
In the game this FG is very heavily based on, infantry armor is its own, hard, research thing exactly on par with handheld laser rifles.
We can not make competent infantry armor by revising superheavy hybrid interceptor armor. It doesn’t matter what experience we have with alloys. If we want good infantry armor, we have to design it.
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Yes @Chiefwaffles. because game-balance in a video game totally equates to balance in an Arms race Game.
If we are going to fabricate armor, I would be sorely disappointed if all you made it out to me is just "make armor plates in the form of armor for our marines. We can do so much more, if not in terms of protection, at the very least in miscilanious utility. Automated Bio-monitors that would administer treatment int he form of painkillers, anesthetic and adrenal solutions when needed, a more augmented HUD system, stealth-friendly boots with sound absorbing systems, etc, etc.
To just make armor would be a waste of a design in any form, unless it has more features then "protects man from gunshots".
But if we make a system that happens to be an armor would be a proper use of both the alloy and electronic systems that we discover in our quest to pilfer alien technology.
@Madman, I'd rather invest a design and make a bad ass set of armor then make some nerd-ass inserts that replace our current armor.
Yes, the shape is different. But an aircraft is not just a shell of metal, its an aerodynamic shape of metal with special design considerations around its purpose. With a person-armor, just committing a revision to making an armor will get us just that; A set of armor that might protect our soldiers by the inclusion of alien alloys. If we invest fully in a design by integrating some electronic systems as well as alien alloys in its construction, we get the benefits of fully integrating high craftsmanship quality into the armor as well as whole new features that we dont have right now. Anything from medical systems to aim assistance and augmented HUD systems are all within the realm of possibility of designing a new set of armor rather then replacing all the inserts with alloy.
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Don’t get me wrong. An armor design would be more than just “alloy armor” (though that’d still be well worth a design). But that’d be its main feature and it’d be nowhere near power armor.
And yes. Game balance in XCOM does have relevance where because this entire AR is built around the XCOM game and its balancing. Even the tokens near-perfectly mimic the various requirements on the XCOM1 tech tree.
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My point, Blood, happens to be that we don't NEED all the fancy extras. We just need to make a single unit of TAV+alien-alloy armor to VASTLY increase survivability.
And yes, the aircraft IS just a shell of metal in an aerodynamic shape. That is the essence of it. It's got perforations and weird geometry in places and it's probably quality-controlled to within an inch of its life to allow it to slice through the air with a minimum amount of drag, but it's still the SAME METAL, which is my entire point. It's the same metal, therefore it's not going to be hard to make it in appropriate infantry shapes.
Chief, I reiterate: We have the knowledge base of "how to make metal-based armor that is very protective". We have the knowledge of "how to work alien alloy". The alloy used in our planes is the EXACT SAME ALLOY that will be used in the infantry armor, it's just not as thick in the infantry armor. I don't know about you, but I am 100% certain that it's going to be pretty simple to take the infantry armor we have in our pregame tech base and/or look up some plate armor designs from the Internet and just make those, but with alien alloy. Boom, instant protection. Substitute a TAV setup for a helmet and we've got ourselves knights in shining armor but with computers.
In short: I don't know why you think that the aircraft uses a different metal than infantry armor would.
The game that this is based on has ALMOST NOTHING to do with difficulty, because that game is balanced to make the campaign longer/harder/whatever, while this one is not balanced like that. This one is balanced more around realism (I hope), although perhaps we should just
Hey, ebbor: Is this game balanced around XCOM of some sort or is it balanced more around realism, with respect to design difficulty?
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Our major actions have been perfectly in sync with game balance.
We rushed lasers railguns using weapon fragments the alien equipment token and got increased difficulty. Because in the game, there’s a tech that you research with weapon fragments an alien equipment token needed first for lasers railguns. We just went directly to railguns using weapon fragments our alien equipment token.
Or how we designed our fighter with a good difficulty once we got the tokens and prerequisite experience nearly identical to that’s of the game. The XCOM1 Firestorm requires research of elerium, a salvaged alien power core power core token, and alien navigation an alien navigation token. We just already messed with alien navigation and Ebbor felt that a gravity propulsion token was missing from the game (which I agree with.)
If you look at our actual designs and their difficulty of everything we’ve done so far, the extreme similarities to XCOM1 balancing are obvious.
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Then I ask you: Have they been perfectly in-sync because Ebbor wants them to be; because those difficulties and technical challenges make sense; or because we've so far ended up doing things similar to actual things you do in XCOM?
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@Chief Waffles
I absolutely refuse to believe that our resident GM will follow that IP up too and including the difficulty of armor versus everything else.
Most of the difficulty related to the production of the theoretical armor would probably be in the shaping the alloys themselves, which we have done so extensively with our aircraft manipulation. This means that its gonna be easier to make our alloy armor, possibly to the point where we could make it in a revision. I am against Alloy armor as a revision, but I am also against Alloy Armor and a little bit of something else as a design, because I believe that would be so easy that it wouldn't be worth the tokens and our time.
What I would be for is a armor design where the armor is made as well as features that would increase our soldiers survivability even further, maybe some sort of modular system with wrist mounted weapon modules and different types of gear for soldiers to pick (Ultra heavy plates for heavy weapon soldiers, ultra light for scouts, etc.)
@Madman
I want all the fancy extras, because that means our soldiers would be better in ways beyond something that could be countered with, say, a cartridge of plasma that pierces the armor and then releases the plasma, resulting in a boiling soldier. Its litterally just a direct counter to enemy weapons when we could have it do something beyond protecting our soldiers. With our soldiers, we can use a more protective but heavier armor plate because it doesnt need to be ultra light for our aircraft as it does our soldiers, but it would still be revision material
My proposal would be something along hte lines of a moduular armor system where plates of varying thickness could be chosen by our soldiers, and modules of varying types (Medical, scanning, Aim-help, Hud modules, carrying capacity, etc.) could be attached to various points of the armor, allowing for a system where improvements could be added and we have a baseline armor system that could be tactically adjusted before the battle based upon our needs..
If a soldier is going to an urban combat situation, they might opt for heavier armor and certain scanners to be better able to withhold ambushes, while a long desert situation might take aim-help for long range engagements, and so on and so on.
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Even if you somehow don’t see/believe the super-obvious balance connection, you can look st it from the perspective of AR balance.
Proper alloy armor would be extremely useful. Extremely.
This, if won’t be practical as just a revision.
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So it won't be easy because it'd be useful, even if it is extremely easy to physically do.
I'm 100% certain that that's not the case, but I can't disprove it any more than you can prove it, so we ought to just wait for the GM to weigh in.
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Then I ask you: Have they been perfectly in-sync because Ebbor wants them to be; because those difficulties and technical challenges make sense; or because we've so far ended up doing things similar to actual things you do in XCOM?
I work in mysterious ways.
That said, my primary intention is to balance things realistically based on an XCOM like setting. So whatever physics XCOM operates under, that is the way the world works here. But the XCOM conventions aren't strictly followed, after all, you deploy more than 6 people to a single battlefield.
The only exception are overrides against things that would break the game. For example, the Aliens trying orbital bombardement.
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you sending me mixed signals here!
realistically
Balance
Xcom-LIke Setting
you agreed with all of us and none of us!
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The art of diplomacy.
To be clearer though, in this case.
Slapping alien alloys on standard armor would be.
1. Trivial revision if you use a token
2. Easy-normal if you don't, closer to easy than normal
If you want to actually have fancy armor that can fully exploit the benefits of alien alloy, and maybe a grappling hook or so, then we go Hard-Very hard.
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"A good compromise leaves everyone unhappy"
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I cant believe this. Madman is arguing to simply make an entire set of infantry armor in a revision while Waffles eloquently requesting for an entire armor set as a design while I am pushing for an armor with the things we need to win.
Why am I always the one who has to argue for the right option?/s
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Did you imply Skeleton armor? Did I just hear skeleton armor getting implied?
Well, you leave me no choice.
I'm willing to change the name, and willing to add/change things in the design itself.
Design: Hunter Armor
1 Alien Equipment Token
Hunter Armor is a set of personal armor taking full advantage of the nature of alien alloys. Namely, the fact that alien alloys are really light while being really strong and can somehow absorb blunt forces.
First element is, well, the alloy armor. Plating covers most of the body (and all vital areas), but Hunter Armor is very much not a "one-piece suit"; we want to preserve mobility (even with the lightness of alloy, if you put enough on a person eventually they start getting encumbered) and expense. Regardless, survivability should be up insane levels thanks to the super-miracle material that is alien alloys.
A helmet incorporates an improved version of the TAV2. Namely "not prone to breakage if someone makes a mean joke about it in its proximity"-improved. The sensors are integrated into the suit and the helmet visor incorporates the HUD, which can be turned on and off at will. This should allow our operatives to always benefit from the TAV2 without suffering from its bulky and fragile nature.
A simple system in the back, near the spine, monitors vital signs and distributes various medicines when needed. It's not a huge deal since we don't have medkits yet are just using standard drugs - painkillers, stimulants, anesthetics, etc. - in fairly low quantities, but it should at least be a notable aid. Enough to keep a soldier from death for a couple hours or to keep someone fighting for ten more minutes. That kind of thing. The vital sign monitoring system is also networked with the integrated TAV, meaning the status of Hunter armor-wearing soldiers is visible to all other agents so they may react appropriately and just be better aware of injuries.
Moving past all the hybrid alien groundbreaking technology advancing human knowledge and our view of reality as we know it, we approach the most important feature:
A grappling hook.
It turns out that when your armor is sufficiently light and you can make the grappling hook "rope"-thing-whatever-you-call-it partially out of alien alloys, you can create a grappling hook able to be shot across notable distances and bring the entire soldier there very quickly. We had some problems in testing at first when the grappling hook smashed the soldier into the wall at extreme velocities (and surviving with little-to-no injuries thanks to the armor!), but we've aimed for much more reasonable velocities instead. They should just remember to have their feet ahead of them for the landing. In order to ensure the viability of the grappling hook, we're using some alien equipment parts to more properly integrate the systems, from just getting an idea of how to properly build the grappling hook, to integrating a super-small elerium power supply in order to ensure it has enough power to actually take advantage of the alloy-reinforced cable. We could probably get along without it, but this would help, so we may as well.
Imagine. Our soldiers zipping across the sites, confusing aliens, using the integrated TAV to get the advantage on them and always be aware. Never being in one place. Their armor keeping them alive.
EDIT: Added in Alien Equipment token usage on grappling hook.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (2): Happerry, Pavellius
Falcon Fighter-Transport (0):
Colombia Jungle Base (2): Strongpoint, Blood_Librarian
Hunter Armor (1): Chiefwaffles
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Switching my vote to the Columbia base, though I would prefer it be located in Argentina, since that's one of the XCOM supporters.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (1): Happerry
Falcon Fighter-Transport (0):
Colombia Jungle Base (3): Strongpoint, Blood_Librarian, Pavellius
Hunter Armor (1): Chiefwaffles
[/quote]
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That design overreaches so far I don't even know where it's reached to.
You're going to make an auto-medic AND a literally physics-defying grapple system at the same time. And then plug it into the armor, which should really just claim to be medieval plate, because that's what it is. Oh, and medieval plate has neat tricks, like having almost perfect coverage of everything that might get shot.
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Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (0):
Falcon Fighter-Transport (0):
Colombia Jungle Base (3): Strongpoint, Blood_Librarian, Pavellius
Hunter Armor (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
Personally I think having the panic point in Brazil is the perfect reason to put a base in Brazil, but at this point it's obvious no one else agrees. Oh well. Anyway, I'm not going to vote for an infantry training base because we already don't have enough transport to bring all our guys in as is, so I don't see the point in going for more infantry points when people seem to hate the idea of going for more advanced infantry classes that might cost more. It's not like we'll be able to bring the extra guys in till we get more VP anyway...
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Wow, Madman. I have no idea how you even got to that conclusion.
So.
Slapping alien alloys on standard armor would be.
1. Trivial revision if you use a token
2. Easy-normal if you don't, closer to easy than normal
If you want to actually have fancy armor that can fully exploit the benefits of alien alloy, and maybe a grappling hook or so, then we go Hard-Very hard.
That's in a revision, meaning a design doing the same (grappling hook) would most likely be around Normal.
And by the way, Ebbor's referring to the Skeleton Suit (http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Skeleton_Suit_(armor)) from XCOM: Enemy Unknown. Y'know, the one with the grappling hook. (supershort video link) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbKQ9ujLZiI) This is what he means when he's talking about "grappling hook", and what you're calling a "physics-defying grapple system".
Hell, I'll even edit in the use of an Alien Equipment token to get it just in case that makes you happy. But we both know it won't.
Furthermore, the "auto-medic" is:
1.) Building off of the TAV. Which already has vital monitoring systems. Which also happen to not be hard. Especially for us.
2.) Injecting small amounts of existing medicine. We're not trying to make something that'll heal broken bones and plasma wounds, but it'll be enough to keep soldiers going for a couple more minutes or keep critical soldiers alive for another hour.
Considering we've made railguns in designs and a hybrid flying tank with gravity propulsion, something as simple as what you call the "auto-medic" should be less than trivial to incorporate.
And no, it's not medieval plate.
This is the Skeleton Suit. (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/xcom/images/8/81/XCOM-EU_Skeleton_Armor.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121009171252)
It's what this design is based off. That's the kind of coverage (roughly - I'm aiming for a bit more) we're going for. We do not want to sacrifice mobility.
And I agree, Happerry. The Colombia base honestly seems like the worst possible option to me - we'd be focusing the design on our least-needed production (UP), putting it in the wrong place, and ignoring other problems while at it. While I somewhat prefer Hunter Armor, I'll still vote for the Brazil base if enough others do to make it a viable competitor in terms of votes.
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Switching my vote to the Columbia base, though I would prefer it be located in Argentina, since that's one of the XCOM supporters.
I prefer Colombia because a) it is closer to North America b)Colombian jungles are great for hiding but this is a minor point
Personally I think having the panic point in Brazil is the perfect reason to put a base in Brazil,
Because our aircrafts are slow and will never get in the place in time... Oh, wait...
You may say that this may allow us to reduce the panic point but doesn't it means that base need to be public for that?
I'm not going to vote for an infantry training base because we already don't have enough transport to bring all our guys in as is
We have two tokens to improve our EP and VP situation. We can use UP for the freaking Inter Agency Cooperation teams. We, as you said below, can revise\design new units. We can revise Skyranger\develop new transport. We can use one Talon and many Skyrangers.
Furthermore, it is less "infantry training base" and more "learn to how fight our enemies effectively" kind of base
Also, I have a strong feeling that you, one who wanted the second base for a long time, just voting for the armor now because... voting for my design is unacceptable because it is... strongpoint's design. Fluff for the base is secondary if you want resources it provides.
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If you want a "learn how to fight our enemies effectively" design, then you make a design to do that. All your base is going to do is extra UP - the least important production point for us.
EDIT: Besides, didn't Ebbor explicitly state we can't just directly upgrade troop skill/effectiveness any more after we did NOTSOFTER? If you want to improve troop performance, you have to explicitly start specializing them. Just saying "train them gooder" isn't going to do a thing.
We can't use 1 Talon because it'd get crushed at air, either.
Also, no, that's not how panic works.
While it certainly does indicate the populace's level of panic, it's more-so the nation's ruling class. In every XCOM game, you lose a nation when the rulers of that nation decide that XCOM isn't doing enough for them and that it'd be a better idea to try to strike a deal/surrender/"peace treaty"/whatever with the aliens. These people are the ones who would be aware of an XCOM base in the region.
Hell, in XCOM1 the primary method of decreasing panic is orbiting a super-top-secret satellite over the country to detect UFOs in the region. The populace would never know about that, even though the act of doing it directly decreases panic.
And even regardless of direct panic effects (which isn't the point), a base in Brazil makes it significantly easier to lower panic and prevent future increases over time as we have base defenses covering the area as well as quicker response times.
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If you want a "learn how to fight our enemies effectively" design, then you make a design to do that. All your base is going to do is extra UP - the least important production point for us.
a) In that case we'll get the design that does that (let's say a unit) but not the base. I want base. Many players want base. Base is the key.
b) No. It won't just give us UP. It is not how game mechanics work. Go find 10ebbor10s words after our first failed attempt. Oh, and if I wanted only UP I wouldn't bother proposing a base and just went for recruitment center. It is a manufacturing center, it has hangars to launch aircrafts, it has its own radar. It is a BASE.
c) UP is actually not the least important resource. We lost the last battle because we went for less U for no good reason but desire to win A LOT in the air. We are regularly losing battles where numbers aren't in our favor.
d) Essentially, it is the same offer as Heppery's but instead of > "build a base + no meaningfully fluff" it is a "build a base + meaningful fluff" backed by tokens to prevent difficulty increase. Really, Happery's offer could be build an X-COM base in Brazilian jungles and lose no useful information at all.
I really want to use both unit token and Exalt token because they have a good chance to sit there forever.
As for location > It is a very minor thing for me. Like really minor. I am ready to move it to Brazil, Antarctica, 100km away from out current base should it get a vote or two.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (0):
Falcon Fighter-Transport (0):
Colombia Jungle Base (3): Strongpoint, Blood_Librarian, Pavellius
-Same as above but in Brazil (1): Strongpoint
-Same as above but in Argentina (1): Strongpoint
Hunter Armor (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
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If many players want a base, then they should vote for a base that tries to be a base and not a glorified wasteful attempt at achieving something we were already told to be explicitly impossible.
You very clearly emphasize UP and training. You talk at lengths in the design about all this fancy tech and methods relating to personnel then you just at the end go “oh yeah other stuff is here too I guess.” You prioritize the unit stuff in your design.
No, UP is the least important resource.
If you didn’t notice, we couldn’t deploy all our existing UP thanks to a lack of VP.
Your base wastes tokens for no good reason, and focuses on the wrong things. You can claim that it’s fluff all you want, but it’s in the design and will thus affect it.
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Now, I seem to need to point out that ebbor's message was edited, and so I didn't see that edited section.
Maybe you didn't read the overly-long section about plate armor I posted...but plate armor in no meaningful way affects mobility in combat. And that's when its made of steel. We can get away with even more armor, if we want, when using alien alloy. And, again: We could literally make a copy of late-medieval (the kind that covers basically everything) plate (preferably with a little less shiny-ness), with a more modern helmet design (i.e., integrated TAV). Boom, instantaneous armor that covers everything and makes hostile melee attack an exercise in futility, while making it EXTREMELY hard to get a kill with ranged weaponry, because of the magic alloy.
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If many players want a base, then they should vote for a base that tries to be a base and not a glorified wasteful attempt at achieving something we were already told to be explicitly impossible.
It is a no less base than Happery's offer. Nothing in the description says that it will perform any of its functions worse than his version
You very clearly emphasize UP and training. You talk at lengths in the design about all this fancy tech and methods relating to personnel then you just at the end go “oh yeah other stuff is here too I guess.”
It doesn't says > reduce effectiveness in all other areas for better infantry. And I could write some silly description of workshops and labs but what for?
No, UP is the least important resource.
If you didn’t notice, we couldn’t deploy all our existing UP thanks to a lack of VP.
We could. You just made a bad plan. We would perform better in the last battle with talon+raven+3 Skyrangers. It is not my problem that thread is paranoid about air part of the game. I am more than fine to spend half of VP on transports and half of VP on fighters. It is a balanced approach. Buying 6VP worth of fighters and 2VP worth of transports IS NOT fine.
The only time when we got stomped in the air, was during the first battle in Brazil, despite that we almost won the following land battle. If we did a right thing and sent 3 Skyrangers we would win that battle.
Your base wastes tokens for no good reason, and focuses on the wrong things. You can claim that it’s fluff all you want, but it’s in the design and will thus affect it.
It gives us useful things (at least me and two other players think so) so it is not a waste by definition. Otherwise those tokens will keep laying there. When did we get unit experience? Something like 4 turns ago, right?
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Hindsight is 20/20, Strongpoint. Keep that in mind, and remember that your plans would likely have been no more successful, overall (as in, considering every battle and every plan together), than anyone else's.
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Also I just recently posted a revision we can do very soon that needs the tokens you’re wasting to work. Investigatory Units.
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Design: HOP-LITE Modular Battle-Plate
HOP-LITE MBP's core system consists a set of specialized magnets, straps, and webbings that allows for a soldier to completely customize their protective equipment with the assistance of our resident engineering staff while also allowing for a comprehensive and easy-to-modify set of equipment to be attached to various hardpoints on the soldier's armor. The end result is a set of Alien Alloy plate armor that can vary in thickness in certain areas while housing additional equipment such spare magazines, grenades, and other tactical equipment.
All HOP-LITE plates are fabricated using Alien alloys, and although they are on average thicker then our old plate armor, they are both lighter and stronger than our previous kit, and a soldier may choose to specify thicker or thinner plates in various areas as the armor is fitted for them by the tailors and "blacksmiths" that program the rapid production systems that make these sets of armor.
A soldier may be able to equip any particular extremity with a heavy plate designed to take successive blows from an alien plasma rifle before melting, or all the way to a super-light plate that may only take a blow or two in return of being almost as if they were not wearing armor at all.
The Chest piece and the helmet are of special note, and although they are just as "customizable" in terms of thickness and construction, they are all equipped with several sets of electronics and equipment that come together to increase the survivability and lethality of our soldiers.
Number one, each MBP is equipped with a set of internal and external sensors designed to quantify and notify the appropriate parties of the user's condition. This is communicated both to their squad members and high command. In cases of emergency, the AUTO-VACI (Vascular Access Core Injector) may inject pain-killers, anesthetics and anti-trauma medication to keep the user alive in the cases of burn trauma. The system is designed specifically burns caused by the enemies plasma weaponry and is especially as effective in treatment. the system can be triggered to inject certain drugs by the User, a squad member, or if required an OVERWATCH Officer at high command. The sensors also detect environmental temperature, humidity and other various tactical facets of the battlefield for the users use as well as an integrated compass so that the user will always know which direction they are facing.
Number two: The suit has specialized slots ready-made for users to further customize its abilities and anything from gore-packs to fake one's death to pull out swords. We're really relying on the engineer's imagination and the soldier's ingenuity at the moment for anything they want to make for these "slots" at the moment.
Number Three, the helmet is fully integrated with TAV Systems.A screen replaces a visor, which is connected to various cameras that allow the soldier the option of various visual sensors if the soldier in question has had the expansions installed (Options are Nightvision goggles, Thermal, and standard.). The Screen offers increased frontal face protection as the occupant of the armor will no longer have to worry about being killed by a bolt of errant plasma collapsing their visor. The sensors on the Screen variation of the helmet also allows multiple camera types to be used in place of standard light detection, allowing for the possibility of night vision or thermal sensors to be hooked up to the system.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (0):
Falcon Fighter-Transport (0):
Colombia Jungle Base (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
-Same as above but in Brazil (1): Strongpoint
-Same as above but in Argentina (1): Strongpoint
Hunter Armor (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
HOP-LITE MBP (1): Blood_Librarian
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Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (1): Happerry
Falcon Fighter-Transport (0):
Colombia Jungle Base (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
-Same as above but in Brazil (1): Strongpoint
-Same as above but in Argentina (1): Strongpoint
Hunter Armor (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
HOP-LITE MBP (1): Blood_Librarian
You know, there are two things I want to win, so I'm just going to put my vote on both of them.
a) In that case we'll get the design that does that (let's say a unit) but not the base. I want base. Many players want base. Base is the key.
b) No. It won't just give us UP. It is not how game mechanics work. Go find 10ebbor10s words after our first failed attempt. Oh, and if I wanted only UP I wouldn't bother proposing a base and just went for recruitment center. It is a manufacturing center, it has hangars to launch aircrafts, it has its own radar. It is a BASE.
c) UP is actually not the least important resource. We lost the last battle because we went for less U for no good reason but desire to win A LOT in the air. We are regularly losing battles where numbers aren't in our favor.
d) Essentially, it is the same offer as Heppery's but instead of > "build a base + no meaningfully fluff" it is a "build a base + meaningful fluff" backed by tokens to prevent difficulty increase. Really, Happery's offer could be build an X-COM base in Brazilian jungles and lose no useful information at all.
I really want to use both unit token and Exalt token because they have a good chance to sit there forever.
I will leave it in short as I disagree with basically 100% of what you have written here, your base is not just like my base any more then a barracks is like a factory, I fail to see how your base has any more 'fluff' then mine considering that both of the descriptions are 100% focused around what the bases have, and while a base might be key it should be a useful base, which a base focused around the currently least needed resource is not. And UP is the least useful resource because we already can't afford to transport all of it to the battlefield.
(I'm also not sure how you seem to expect making a giant barracks to potentially end up with a new unit type instead of more UP, but whatever.)
I'll also note that going by your logic, apparently we could sum up your plan as 'build an X-COM base in Colombian jungles' and have no useful information lost. After all, it explains how your base specializes just as well as it explains how mine does...
And in all honesty, it'd probably end up with something more useful then a giant barracks as well, so I'd be more likely to vote for that description.
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That's in a revision, meaning a design doing the same (grappling hook) would most likely be around Normal.
I should really be more careful when writing things. If you want to go full Skeleton Armor, you're looking at a design.
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Well, yeah. That's what I said and you implied?
The "fancy armor that can fully exploit the benefits of alien alloy, and maybe a grappling hook or so" was said to be a Hard/Very Hard revision. Since what you described is more-or-less Skeleton armor and a Hard/Very Hard revision for something like this is a bad hting, it would indeed be an easier design.
Or did you mean that the skeleton armor would be a Hard/Very Hard design?
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The "fancy armor that can fully exploit the benefits of alien alloy, and maybe a grappling hook or so" was said to be a Hard/Very Hard revision.
Yeah, I didn't mean that. The revision part only referred to the 2 options that were numbered. The line below was supposed for a design.
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Oh.
Oh.
So a theoretical Skeleton Armor design would be Hard/Very Hard, then?
I mean, I don't understand how basic alloy armor is a trivial revision but proper alloy armor w/ a grappling hook is a H/VH design, but sure. At least that means I was the most-right out of the argument.
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(I'm also not sure how you seem to expect making a giant barracks to potentially end up with a new unit type instead of more UP, but whatever.)
No. I expect UP and easier time designing\revising advanced units later because we'll have tech to base specialized
I'll also note that going by your logic, apparently we could sum up your plan as 'build an X-COM base in Colombian jungles' and have no useful information lost. After all, it explains how your base specializes just as well as it explains how mine does...
Please, point at anything that looks like specialization in your Brazilian base. I am very curious because I see none. There are absolutely no specialization.
And in all honesty, it'd probably end up with something more useful then a giant barracks as well, so I'd be more likely to vote for that description.
Strawman detected. There are not a single word about enlarged barracks in my proposal
________________
Hindsight is 20/20, Strongpoint.
"Hindsight" is a very convenient way to never admit (and never learn from) mistakes. We were break even in air power. Enemy did a blunder and gave us tokens for free. We designed a fighter with those tokens and rolled good.
What was an obvious next step once we went ahead in airforce? Do something to strengthen our land troops! What was the direction the thread? Thread went for revising missiles because our "missiles are useless". Even with enemy going for their own missiles it was a wrong decision. And I was sure that it is wrong long before actual battle
and remember that your plans would likely have been no more successful, overall (as in, considering every battle and every plan together), than anyone else's.
IIRC I either voted for or proposed 3 Raven + 1 Skyrangers and immediately said that it was a bad idea after that first battle in Brazil. That was a hindsight, sure. It also was a lesson learned.
For example. If my revision\design will be overcomplicated and get very hard difficulty for no good reason I won't go "It's unfortunate" and "GM is wrong" route like Chiefwaffles did.
I'll say something like "Ooops. I screwed it up"
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Time to do what I like - Propose a design that has 0.01% chance of getting voted :D
R-X drone: Alien Computer token. Alien Equipment token.
R-X drone is an AI controlled flying drone weighting around 200kg. It is strongly influenced by alien land drones this one is made both for aerial and land combat. It is propelled by a scaled down version of Talon's engine. It is armored in a way similar to scheme used on Rockbreaker missile. It has empty internal space for a mission specific module. There are five by default: a) Rockbreaker like warhead, that allows to transform the drone into an advanced cruised missile b) Complicated surveillance equipment that can deliver information directly to X-COM operatives TAV's and Talons' pilots and also can be used in "AVACS" mode c)Light railgun powerful enough to make holes in small scouts turning it into a very light fighter that is useful against smaller enemy vessels) Machinegun turret for ground support and shooting down enemy missiles in flight. e) single missile to pose a threat to larger UFOs. Main disadvantage of the drone is a low endurance that means that it either needs to engage targets close to X-COM base or be carried into combat as a parasite craft by a larger aircraft (for example it can be attached to Skyranger while still allowing full X-COM squad inside). Also, thanks to small size several R-Xes can be loaded in Skyranger replacing the squad and be launched by opening the door in mid-flight
Hey, Strongpoint, didn't you say in the post above that we really don't need more air power? Yep. But I kinda hope that this will be purchasable with both VP or EP maybe even UP (but I admit that it is a wishful thinking). Also, I'd love to have a cheaper VP alternative for Talon for flexibility. Also, I see this as a first step to eventual Talon replacement with no pilot (or even no pilot revision of Talon). Maaaaybe I am going overboard with flexibility but I prefer that to trying to fit everything in the design. I think low endurance disadvantage is necessary to help with cost\design difficulty. I think that we are well prepared for this kind of design with tokens and past experience and it offers nice synergy with existing forces.
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I mean, I don't understand how basic alloy armor is a trivial revision but proper alloy armor w/ a grappling hook is a H/VH design, but sure. At least that means I was the most-right out of the argument.
Darn internet. I *think* that that last line is facetious, but I can't tell. So I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say it was.
Also, ebbor, what do you mean "fully exploits the benefits of alien alloy"? What benefits are there to exploit that can't be discovered just by using the stuff in place of normal metal? We need the protective qualities and the lightness, and, hey, look at that, using the stuff as simple armor plates get both of those.
In other words, what other magic qualities does this ridiculous metal have?
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He's referring to the fact that replacing all the armor plates but keeping hte overall design same, assuming no special considerations are required for making alloy armor would "not be a trivial design", versus making what essentially amounts to the grappling hook and attaching that to the armor would be very hard.
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Um, actually it'd be a trivial REVISION to make armor that is just regular armor except with alien alloy instead of steel or ceramics, if you have a token. Otherwise it's just Easy, or Trivial (as a Design).
Making a grapple assembly and whatnot is H/VH on a Design. So, technically, since I was arguing that it would be simplicity itself to merely make premade armor out of alien alloy, I was the most correct.
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I'll also note that going by your logic, apparently we could sum up your plan as 'build an X-COM base in Colombian jungles' and have no useful information lost. After all, it explains how your base specializes just as well as it explains how mine does...
Please, point at anything that looks like specialization in your Brazilian base. I am very curious because I see none. There are absolutely no specialization.
Thank you for admitting you haven't even bothered to read my plans, considering they explicitly state they're all production ball state they're focused on production. But considering you seem to be unable to actually read, I'll quote and bold the specific parts again here.
Hidden in the backwaters of China, this base takes advantage of the multitude of cheap, easily conscripted labor that is also easily concealed with the traditionally 'delicate' Chinese views towards censorship to create a powerful production center of airframes, air weapons, and infantry equipment for XCOM's use. It also has a small lab setup to help put new prototypes, probably developed elsewhere, into production, a barracks to host the base's security troopers, and several concealed missile launchers and ground to air defense railguns to help ward off enemy base attacks. A single solitary hanger and airstrip allow air missions to be staged out of this base in an emergency.
With most of the facilities hidden underneath and inside one a fairly large mountain, this base hosts a powerful and high tech production center that takes advantage of easy access to high technology experts and designers in America to build and prototype the most advanced gear that XCOM needs with all the speed made possible with modern automation technology. These facilities, buried as they are, are armored in literally tons of rock, and defended by a team of security troopers that put the bases natural fortifications to best use. The base also has a set of missile launchers and railcannon turrets to help ward of air attacks, normally concealed, and a small lab for use in prototyping new designs. A small hanger is attached for emergency use, but the base is not designed as an offensive installation.
Hidden deep beneath the jungle canopy, and half buried besides, this base takes utmost advantage of it's backwater positioning to conceal its network of workshops and factories from interested eyes. Here, new gear, both air and ground, is built for XCOM's use, and some prototype equipment put into production with the help of a small research station. Also hidden beneath the jungle canopy are a network of missile launchers and ground to air mass drivers, as well as a hanger with an attached airstrip (which is the only part of the base viewable from above, given the needs of vehicles to take off from it). A few scattered barracks facilities hosts a defensive group of security personal to ward off lost explorers and serve as a last line of defense if the aliens attack.
Hell, you even flat out call them production bases when you submitted your wasteful Colombia barracks base, as can be seen here...
1) We got a monthly token and reward token, it is not that important to go for the production base.
So you know perfectly well what they are optimized for and just don't want to admit it now that you find it more convenient to deny it.
And in all honesty, it'd probably end up with something more useful then a giant barracks as well, so I'd be more likely to vote for that description.
Strawman detected. There are not a single word about enlarged barracks in my proposal
I find this claim hilarious considering how you have been repeatingly strawmanning my proposals as well as flat out lying about what they are designed to do, but whatever.
And it's a base 100% about giving us more UP. That's a barracks base because that's what the base basically is. A giant barracks that gives us more UP. Which, again, we need the least out of the three resource token types.
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Hidden deep beneath the jungle canopy, and half buried besides, this base takes utmost advantage of it's backwater positioning to conceal its network of workshops and factories from interested eyes. Here, new gear, both air and ground, is built for XCOM's use, and some prototype equipment put into production with the help of a small research station[/b]. Also hidden beneath the jungle canopy are a network of missile launchers and ground to air mass drivers, as well as a hanger with an attached airstrip (which is the only part of the base viewable from above, given the needs of vehicles to take off from it). A few scattered barracks facilities hosts a defensive group of security personal to ward off lost explorers and serve as a last line of defense if the aliens attack.
And how the bolded part is different to our main base? It has "network of workshops and factories", too. Maybe you think that our EP and VP come from a thin air or whatever.
And it's a base 100% about giving us more UP. That's a barracks base because that's what the base basically is. A giant barracks that gives us more UP. Which, again, we need the least out of the three resource token types.
Yeah, it clearly says, there are no workshops, hangars, labs. It is a huge barracks base :D You really make me laugh here. This base is universal. It just doesn't go into detail about the stuff that is same as on the main base because... well.. why describe a copy of something.
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Madman:
How dare you abuse the most-correct title. I always was, am, and always will be, the most correct. There is no debate here.
Anyways.
I think we should save the armor debate for when we have an alloy token. The benefits of a proper armor design would be insane, and wouldn't really benefit much from revising super-simple armor beforehand; we should preserve action economy in that sense.
So I'm switching my vote to Happerry's base. Hunter Armor shall return once we get another Alloy Token.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (2): Happerry, Chiefwaffles
Colombia Jungle Base (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
-Same as above but in Brazil (1): Strongpoint
-Same as above but in Argentina (1): Strongpoint
Hunter Armor (1): Happerry
HOP-LITE MBP (1): Blood_Librarian
Also Happerry, mind adding quick very-low-priority mentions of inter-agency cooperation teams and alien containment to the Brazil base proposal?
Both would be nice and seem trivial. But of course if Ebbor thinks otherwise they're not worth extra difficulty.
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Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (3): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Pavellius
Colombia Jungle Base (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
-Same as above but in Brazil (1): Strongpoint
-Same as above but in Argentina (1): Strongpoint
Hunter Armor (1): Happerry
HOP-LITE MBP (1): Blood_Librarian
Both would be nice and seem trivial. But of course if Ebbor thinks otherwise they're not worth extra difficulty.
[/quote]
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What do people think of this?
Design: Brazil Jungle Base Variant B
1 Computer Core Token
The new base is hidden in the Brazillian jungles, with most of it underground as well as a decent amount of aboveground infrastructure. It has all the base essentials for an XCOM outpost to work, including small barracks for base security. But it focuses on serving as a manufacturing site and to extend XCOM's influence over brazil. Airstrips and hangars fit for Talons, Skyrangers, and anything else are put into place, with workshops capable of manufacturing XCOM equipment and vehicles.
The nature of a full-fledged XCOM outpost in Brazil should allow us the necessary influence to coordinate with inter-agency cooperation teams in the area, and if it's not a hard task (read: if it's harder than "a sealed room with slightly adjusted atmospherics") then some basic alien containment will be placed in the base.
The entire base is ran by a new computer derived from the alien computer core and the Rockslide heuristic detection algorithms. It constantly goes over data from XCOM's intelligence network and the base's sensors and analyzes it for any sign of alien activity - whether it's ground, air, espionage, or anything, then gives a compiled list of information to Command allowing for well-informed decisions. The computer also manages several once-human-manned parts of the base, decreasing space and manpower needed.
While after the fire there's very little left of the failed Argentina Airbase outpost project, we can still learn from some of our mistakes there. Like "keep backups," "regularly attend team-wide anger management sessions," and "keep goddamn backups you goddamn luddites."
TL;DR: A base w/ hangars and workshops, that also uses the Alien Computer Core token to make a computer using what we've learned from our abuse use of the rockslide heuristics to give us much better overall intelligence capabilities.
I'll keep my vote on Happerry's brazil base for now, though I'll probably switch if by chance others vote for this.
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Also Happerry, mind adding quick very-low-priority mentions of inter-agency cooperation teams and alien containment to the Brazil base proposal?
Added 'As well, a small experimental facility is also built to hold any alien captives taken in good health (until they are interrogated) and to prevent them from committing suicide and a minor dedicated exterior agency interaction facility is added on in case outsiders need to be worked with. However, these last two facilities are marked to be built last, and only if there is sufficient extra time, on the build plans.' to the end of every design.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base (2): Happerry, Chiefwaffles
Colombia Jungle Base (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
-Same as above but in Brazil (1): Strongpoint
-Same as above but in Argentina (1): Strongpoint
Hunter Armor (0):
HOP-LITE MBP (1): Blood_Librarian
Also good point on not having an Alloy Token.
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Chief, I'd be up for voting for that 'B' variant, since it seems that there's no love for the gravitational shielding. Expanded intelligence capabilities should be on top of our priority list, since we've now got Exalt and should, eventually, see some alien infiltrators. They haven't, apparently, managed and sneaky business quite yet, though I would be very surprised if they aren't trying to do that---i.e., if we choose not to go after a mission, I would expect some mimicry infiltration of some sort.
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Well, there is the Investigatory Unit (which has a lot of relevant tokens too) revision I have planned for this turn's revision. But it would be nice to be able to use our revision for something more directly helping our infantry in combat or even just Rockbreakers.
I'll add a secondary vote for the B Variant. Don't worry, people - I'll remove one of my votes if there's a tie.
(Also Happerry accidently removed Pavellius' vote for the Brazil VarA)
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base Variant A (3): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Pavellius
Brazil Jungle Base Variant B (1): Chiefwaffles
Colombia Jungle Base (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
-Same as above but in Brazil (1): Strongpoint
-Same as above but in Argentina (1): Strongpoint
Hunter Armor (0):
HOP-LITE MBP (1): Blood_Librarian
Also, a side question to see if there's any changes I can make to the VarB for better usage of the token:
Ebbor, what kind of computer core do the aliens have? Is it just "a really powerful computer" or is there something more to it than that?
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Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base Variant A (3): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Pavellius
Brazil Jungle Base Variant B (2): Chiefwaffles, Madman
Colombia Jungle Base (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
-Same as above but in Brazil (1): Strongpoint
-Same as above but in Argentina (1): Strongpoint
Hunter Armor (0):
HOP-LITE MBP (1): Blood_Librarian
I'm going to suggest literal alien-alloy plate armor for the revision, by the way.
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Legitimately disappointed that you people don't want to have cool things.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base Variant A (3): Happerry, Chiefwaffles, Pavellius
Brazil Jungle Base Variant B (3): Chiefwaffles, Madman, Blood_Librarian
Colombia Jungle Base (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
-Same as above but in Brazil (1): Strongpoint
-Same as above but in Argentina (1): Strongpoint
Hunter Armor (0):
HOP-LITE MBP (1): Blood_Librarian
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Switching my vote from Variant A to B.
Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base Variant A (2): Happerry, Chiefwaffles
Brazil Jungle Base Variant B (4): Chiefwaffles, Madman, Blood_Librarian, Pavellius
Colombia Jungle Base (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
-Same as above but in Brazil (1): Strongpoint
-Same as above but in Argentina (1): Strongpoint
Hunter Armor (0):
HOP-LITE MBP (1): Blood_Librarian
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It doesn't matter - proper alloy armor with a grappling hook and nothing else, without a token, is a Very Hard/Hard design. That means both the Hunter Armor and HOP-LITE would at least be Very Hard.
And Madman, that just doesn't make sense with action economy. You have to admit that we're going to really want proper alloy armor at some point. Slapping bits of crashed UFO onto our Kevlar may be a benefit for the time being, but it's awful with action economy. It won't actually help with a proper armor design, which would be an extreme improvement to our soldiers' survivability. Even if all we did was design proper alloy armor and nothing else. Proper armor is important enough that it should be something done in the near future, and doing a crude-armor revision before it would just waste the revision.
And:
In other words, what other magic qualities does this ridiculous metal have?
You have no idea.
Just side-stepping away from the "takes hefty amounts of research to unlock in XCOM game" idea, alien alloy is still ridiculous. UFOs in XCOM are made from alien alloys, right? And a small scout UFO - the weakest UFO in the entire game - takes numerous repeated hits from bleeding-edge missiles in order to be knocked out of the sky.
Yet this actually does insanely small amounts of damage to the actual hull. The missiles more-or-less scratch the hull, and fluff-wise you're just hoping a missile manages to be lucky enough or wear through the armor just enough to knock out propulsion or detonate a power core. You're not actually destroying the UFO in any way.
The UFO then plummets to the ground like a rock because, well, it has no wings. It hits the ground, and is still nearly entirely intact. The majority of the crew is still alive and unharmed. The UFO can even be field-repaired to flying condition again within hours. This is the smallest, weakest, UFO in the entire game. After taking numerous hits from extreme-tech A2A missiles. After hitting the ground at terminal velocity. And it's still in one piece. It's dented, but still nearly-completely intact and within the realm of field-repairing with supplies from the UFO itself.
And this is all confirmed in the FG, too. Their ships are still intact, crews still alive, they take tons of missiles before going down, and their ships can be field-repaired to get back into the air.
That's how strong/miraculous alien alloy is. It's extremely light, extremely strong, and near-indestructible. When you're fighting against it, you're mostly just hoping to get a lucky shot with enough brute force through the alloy (which isn't already miraculously absorbed by the alloy) to hurt something important behind it.
How about this for direct infantry upgrades? We're still using semi-auto long range rifles. Which won't be that great when they outnumber us and two out of three of their units are meant for close-combat (Drones, Mimics).
Future Revision: XH-3 Railgun
The XH-2 is a solid railgun, but it's still effectively a glorified prototype.
By drawing on our experience with the manufacturing and maintenance of the XH-2 since its deployment as well as our other experience with railguns - the Phoenix gunpod, the Talon's upgraded railguns, and our base defense railguns - we can improve the gun. The XH-3 uses more advanced self-loading systems in order to reload at a rate sufficient for fully automatic fire.
Though of course, the XH-3 is configured for burst-fire. Even with the advanced hybrid technology, it's still not a great idea yet to have a fully automatic rifle. The recoil would turn the gun itself into a weapon. But regardless, it's enough to make the XH-3 more similar to an assault rifle and less like an upgraded M1 Garand.
TL;DR: We've spent a lot of time with the XH-2 and have done lots of railgun tech since then. Give the XH-2 (now XH-3) automatic-burst-fire capabilities to make it a more effective combat weapon, especially in closer-range and faster-paced combat.
And Happerry, since I kind of stole the spotlight from you, any criticisms of Variant B?
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I don't think you understand just how effective in action-economy plate armor would be. Full-body protection, extremely lightweight and easy to move in even compared to medieval plate (which, again, only increases the rate at which the wearer tires, without having any other effect on their ability to move), entirely immune to melee attack (unless you expect us to believe that this miracle metal is going to somehow become worse than steel when we're using it), really, REALLY hard to kill with plasma, and to top it all off it's pretty darn simple to do, and requires zero engineering effort from us (just copy medieval plate, thicknesses and all, in the exact same design, with a different material).
Highly effective, can be upgraded to your heart's content, but uses up a single revision to provide protection that will never go obsolete, yet will improve our soldiers' survivability for a long time to come.
Of course, we PROBABLY need some more EP to field this or any other alien-alloy armor, (hint, hint, Mr. My-Base-Design-Has-A-Majority) unless we can decrease the TAV's cost (by, like, removing the alien equipment and just making it out of regular human computers, because our modern-day computers could definitely handle those calculations, perhaps?) to zero.
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The TAV2 can almost definitely easily be made a 0 EP equipment through any way. It's just 1 EP due to balance/rolls. I guarantee you it wouldn't have made a difference whether it uses alien computing or not. (I'm not actually sure if the TAV2 uses it, but regardless.) See Hunter Armor, which obsoletes the TAV2.
But anyways.
1.) I'm not saying revised plate armor wouldn't be effective. I'm saying it wouldn't be effective enough.
2.) It would not be immune to melee attack for many reasons. Namely A.) Arms Race balance and B.) XCOM balance (chryssalids - a melee unit - do tons of damage regardless of armor).
3.) It would go obsolete as soon as we develop proper armor.
4.) It would not progress our knowledge of the matter at all. We already know how to work alloy. An easy revision of "stick alloy on armor" won't help at all.
Simply going off of AR balance - the fact that proper alloy armor mysteriously makes it go from an Easy/Normal revision (without token) to a Hard/Very Hard design (even with a grappling hook, which wouldn't contribute that much to the difficulty) - means that there is a substantial difference in effectiveness.
Here's an example. The exact difficulties are arbitrary, but it's their comparison within the scenarios that matters.
Scenario 1: Revision and Design (Madman)
1.) Revise Plate Armor. Our soldiers get good protection for an easy price. Nice. Normal.
2.) Design proper armor. Our soldiers get amazing protection and greatly increased effectiveness. Hard.
Net result: Amazing protection and effectiveness at the cost of 1 Design and 1 Revision.
Scenario 2: Design Only (Chiefwaffles)
1.) Design proper armor. Our soldiers get amazing protection and greatly increased effectiveness. Hard.
Net result: Amazing protection and effectiveness at the cost of 1 Design.
They both have the same net result, yet yours costs 1 extra revision for no benefit.
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1.) I'm not saying revised plate armor wouldn't be effective. I'm saying it wouldn't be effective enough.
2.) It would not be immune to melee attack for many reasons. Namely A.) Arms Race balance and B.) XCOM balance (chryssalids - a melee unit - do tons of damage regardless of armor).
3.) It would go obsolete as soon as we develop proper armor.
4.) It would not progress our knowledge of the matter at all. We already know how to work alloy. An easy revision of "stick alloy on armor" won't help at all.
1. Hahahaha what? What's going to be more effective than plate armor? What is going to be more effective yet not BUILD OFF OF plate armor? It's a shortcut to having the protection THIS TURN without needing to spend a design just to get something they had in the 12th century. This way, the design can spend most of its time making TAV free and integrated or some such, or making the grapple (You are attempting to tell me that presently-impossible battlefield maneuverability is going to take up less design difficulty than the actual armor, and I definitely do not agree)
2. A. AND B.: So we teach the aliens that we're not in the 15th century any more, and they need to at least get themselves a space-crossbow or something before they get killed.
3. See above. The armor itself isn't going obsolete, the things you stick on top of it/under it are.
4. I think you underestimate the impact of "by the way suddenly we're not paper targets anymore", as well as the simple fact that sometimes something needs to be done, and whether it's ludicrously simple or not, it still needs to get done. In fact, by that logic, we shouldn't apply automatic fire to railguns, because it's something we already know and doesn't enhance our experience any. We should just design a whole new railgun instead.
Scenario 1: Revision and Design (Madman)
1.) Revise Plate Armor. Our soldiers get good amazing protection for an easy price. Nice. Normal.
2.) Design proper armor all the fancy extras. Our soldiers get amazing protection and greatly increased effectiveness. Hard (Or maybe Normal).
Net result: Amazing protection and effectiveness at the cost of 1 Design and 1 Revision, the design may be more likely to succeed as a result of a different focus, or cover more ground than otherwise possible.
Scenario 2: Design Only (Chiefwaffles)
1.) Design proper armor. Our soldiers get amazing protection and greatly increased effectiveness. Hard or, likely, Very Hard.
Net result: Amazing protection and effectiveness at the cost of 1 Design, which is more likely to fail..
They both have the same net result, yet yours costs 1 extra revision for no benefit. immediate benefit and potential (probable?) benefit to the design.
Provided my own opinion, as well as fixing a few blatant errors (assuming the revision would have no effect on the design, for instance).
Salty opinionatedness aside, what do you mean, "proper" armor? Define this, please, so we're not arguing in circles. Well, we'll still probably argue in a circle, but at least we'll be arguing in the SAME circle.
Personally, I'm referring to literal knight-in-shining-armor, High Medieval plate armor (BEFORE bulletproofing became a thing, so something on the order of 2-4 mm plates, maybe down to 1 on the extremities). Not necessarily perfect coverage, but pretty close for sure. I'll try and find a picture later if necessary.
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The art of diplomacy.
To be clearer though, in this case.
Slapping alien alloys on standard armor would be.
1. Trivial revision if you use a token
2. Easy-normal if you don't, closer to easy than normal
If you want to actually have fancy armor that can fully exploit the benefits of alien alloy, and maybe a grappling hook or so, then we go Hard-Very hard.
Emphasis mine.
EDIT:
Two more things:
1.) Ebbor wasn't talking about "medieval plate armor but with alloy". He was talking about "slapping alien alloys on standard armor." Your thing would likely be harder than Normal, on second thought.
2.) We already know how to shape alien alloy. How would having medieval alien alloy plate help with actual alloy combat armor at all?
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OK, can you please define the term "proper armor" anyway?
What characteristics do you expect it to have, what interesting bits do you want from it, etc.
Or, "What about your hypothetical "proper armor" is going to make a plate-style armor "obsolete" and what mysterious benefits of alien alloy is it going to experience that plate isn't?"
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Chinese Industrial Park (0):
American Mountain Base (0):
Brazil Jungle Base Variant A (2): Happerry, Chiefwaffles
Brazil Jungle Base Variant B (5): Chiefwaffles, Madman, Blood_Librarian, Pavellius, Happerry
Colombia Jungle Base (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
-Same as above but in Brazil (1): Strongpoint
-Same as above but in Argentina (1): Strongpoint
Hunter Armor (0):
HOP-LITE MBP (1): Blood_Librarian
-
Ask Ebbor that, not me.
I'm just relying the GM's explicit wording that there is a difference between crude alloy revision - what you want to do - and a design aimed at making proper armor. I don't know what exactly that constitutes, except that it's much harder and better.
-
...
If you don't know, and I don't know, then your point is entirely moot, because how are we going to achieve this if we don't even know what it is?
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Because that’s what my design is. And that’s what yours isn’t.
Ebbor just used “proper armor” in a design to describe it, and my design makes that quite clear. There’s no reason to say it wouldn’t.
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So, wait:
Your design is "proper armor" because it claims to be? What about my armor makes it not "proper armor"?
And can we please find a better term than "proper" armor? Because armor and fancy gadgetry are not the same things, and it's almost certainly important to note (yet again), that unless you know of a better system that provides full-body protection, we're almost certainly going to fall back on previous designs of armor (i.e., PLATE) for the actual protection, and what makes it "proper" is going to be the fancy extras.
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Honestly, I'm not sure what the issue is this time. I said patching alloys onto normal armor would be easy, and that making fancy armor with gadgets would be hard. Through logical deduction, you should be able to conclude that boring armor without gadgets falls in between.
-
Brazil Jungle Base Variant B
1 Computer Core Token
The new base is hidden in the Brazillian jungles, with most of it underground as well as a decent amount of aboveground infrastructure. It has all the base essentials for an XCOM outpost to work, including small barracks for base security. But it focuses on serving as a manufacturing site and to extend XCOM's influence over brazil. Airstrips and hangars fit for Talons, Skyrangers, and anything else are put into place, with workshops capable of manufacturing XCOM equipment and vehicles.
The nature of a full-fledged XCOM outpost in Brazil should allow us the necessary influence to coordinate with inter-agency cooperation teams in the area, and if it's not a hard task (read: if it's harder than "a sealed room with slightly adjusted atmospherics") then some basic alien containment will be placed in the base.
The entire base is ran by a new computer derived from the alien computer core and the Rockslide heuristic detection algorithms. It constantly goes over data from XCOM's intelligence network and the base's sensors and analyzes it for any sign of alien activity - whether it's ground, air, espionage, or anything, then gives a compiled list of information to Command allowing for well-informed decisions. The computer also manages several once-human-manned parts of the base, decreasing space and manpower needed.
While after the fire there's very little left of the failed Argentina Airbase outpost project, we can still learn from some of our mistakes there. Like "keep backups," "regularly attend team-wide anger management sessions," and "keep goddamn backups you goddamn luddites."
Very Hard = (4 + 4 - 2) => Above Average
The Brazil Jungle is a small marvel of modern project planning and engineering. Constructed below budget and ahead of shedule, this large scale, partially underground facility contains a small industrial complex capable of equipping and maintaining a small XCOM expedition. Additional facilities support it's underground analysis system, where a captured UFO core is used to crunch incoming data to better identify suspicious alien activities.
After the TAV-1 project, there was some concern about integrating the UFO computer into various sensitive base systems, but so far the system both perfectly stable and performing better than expected. Administration is rapid and efficient, cleaning works fine, and the cantina food is notably improved compared to human managed systems. We've tested this extensively by inviting several of South America's more prominent politicians and leaders of their special forces team, which should aid in further cooperation.
Lastly, we have also included a basic Alien Containment system. It's little more than a reinforced biohazard lab, but hopefully should be able to handle less dangerous aliens.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Talon (Interceptor) : Integrating copious amounts of Alien Technology, the Talon is grav-wave propelled, heavily armored interceptor. Has 18 hard points for missiles and 2 nose mounts, fitted with a railgun by default. Cost : 3 VP
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-2 Railgun Rifle : An effective semi-automatic rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Rockbreaker Missile: A missile coated in a very thin alien alloy and equipped with a volatile destabilized elerium powercell as warhead. Will detonate if exposed to shock or heat. Cost : 1 EP for 8.
TAV-2: A cobbled together combat visor that can identify and highlight aliens, including disguised ones. Fragile, cobbled together and decidly unergonomic.
Cost : 1 EP
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America/South America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Brazil Jungle Base [A relatively isolated, partially underground base in the Brazilian Jungle]
- Alien Computing Systems
- Aircraft Maintenance and Hangar facility : +1 VP
- Equipment Production facilities : +1 EP
- Primitive alien containment
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
7 VP
3 UP
5+1 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 VP Token, 1 Exalt Intel Token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Revision Phase
Turn 8
Month end : Gain 1 free VP; UP or EP point
AABBCCDD
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Yay. Rolls fell our way
As I expected result is very generic not "industry base" as some players claimed and I thank Chiefwaffles for adding useful parts beyond "just a base"
I think upgrading inter agency cooperation teams to help us in hunting Exalt and infiltrated mimics would be a nice course of action and preferable to upgrading NOTSOFTER
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Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams: 1 unit experience, 1 Exalt intelligence
Suspecting infiltration of enemy Mimics (also knows as skin crawlers) into Earth organizations, X-COM took effort to eradicate those out. Lacking resources, expertise and necessary for such work X-COM asked for assistance from its friends from Inter agency cooperation teams and sent its instructors to share all combat experience of fighting vs Mimics.
In addition to sending instructors X-COM offered help in supplying Inter agency cooperation teams with some key components of TAV2 (along with blueprints that allow to produce less sophisticated elements outside of X-COM) and donating part X-COM's stockpiled firearms and ammunition
Additionally, X-COM shared intelligence data on Exalt, hoping to find help in finding this mysterious 3rd side. After completion of training X-COM asked their friends in special forces to actively search for Exalt and infiltrated mimics.
(Expected mechanics effects: Unused Inter Agency Cooperation teams will give passive benefit to a chance to detect alien\Exalt activity in their region. Inter agency cooperation teams will become better in fighting aliens, especially mimics. They will be partially equipped with TAV2s.)
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Spending an Alien Equipment token on it seems unwise.
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That result is exactly what I wanted and expected. It’s fine to be annoyed that your design didn’t get through, but please stop trying to say “I told you so” at every possible moment.
Also IAC teams aren’t useless. We just haven’t been using them because the aliens have never landed in a valid area while we also didn’t have enough transports.
Revision: Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2
1 Alien Equipment Token
The new missiles are just a refinement of the first generation of missiles.
The alloy use is modified so we can produce missiles without a significant investment of resources (read: don’t have to spend points on it). Stuff like just better use in the missile and not just slapping a layer of it, and only armoring the warhead - if the missile encounters plasma then it’s close enough such that we only need the warhead to survive.
In addition to the armor being focused on the core, some lessons from the small elerium power supplies in alien equipment are used to keep the power supply stable enough that accidental detonation shouldn’t be a problem.
TL;DR: Remove non-essential alloy armoring and refine still-existent armor to remove cost, use a token to fix stability issue.
It’d be nice just not having to worry about air. I’ll post/edit some more revisions (applying to the ground - pretty much just Investigatory units and the XH-3) later.
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Yeah, we are not ahead enough in the air, let do one more action in that direction.
but please stop trying to say “I told you so” at every possible moment.
It is indeed pointless to say "I told you so" when mistakes are never admitted and learned from anyway. I'll stop doing that.
BTW my words were directed to Happery who acted like his base is a giant factory or something, when it clearly isn't. And my offer wasn't giant barracks either
Also IAC teams aren’t useless. We just haven’t been using them because the aliens have never landed in a valid area while we also didn’t have enough transports.
We are not mis(under)using something, we are unlucky. Everything that goes wrong is a bad luck. Understood.
Spending an Alien Equipment token on it seems unwise.
Yeah, it is questionable. But I'd like to give something to our allies and such use of alien equipment makes sense.
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Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2 (1): Chiefwaffles
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It would make sense if they had additional equipment, enough to warrant it instead of just one item. Maybe some sort of additional item? It jsut feels so wrong to have so little.
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It would make sense if they had additional equipment, enough to warrant it instead of just one item. Maybe some sort of additional item? It jsut feels so wrong to have so little.
We could give them our railgun, too.
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I considered adding railguns, but they look far more complex to produce outside of X-COM facilities (mostly because they need Elerium and alloys) and they aren't really helpful for the main purpose of this revision: Getting help in looking for infiltrators. Also, I see it as an act of sharing some of our war trophies with our allies asking for more help in return.
I see such possible changes
1) Add railguns, keep token
2) Remove token, remove TAV
3) Remove token, keep TAV
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I would remove the token and keep TAV, maybe as a larger object in return or such.
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Edited the proposal. I am a bit worried that TAV without token may be greedy, but...
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So you want to upgrade the effective skill and equipment of IAC teams?
Actually, what if we made it so they get access to a bit more equipment and also transport?
Oh right.
We already have that.
It's called NOTSOFTER.
Strongpoint, you're attempting to force a niche unit into the position that our general-use NOTSOFTER already works at. We don't need to waste a revision making IAC teams more skilled and equipped when we already have a Unit that costs the same while being more trained and well-equipped than IAC teams will ever be.
So here's three revisions that would actually have a semblance of usefulness.
Revision 1. Useful because again, every soldier is using a semiautomatic long-range weapon with a relatively low rate of fire. We're fighting aliens that outnumber us in engagements and two out of three alien units specialize in close-range combat. An automatic burst-fire railgun would be a tremendous upgrade in an easy revision and for little cost.
Revision: XH-3 Railgun (Edited - changed wording around recoil and whatnot)
The XH-2 is a solid railgun, but it's still effectively a glorified prototype.
By drawing on our experience with the manufacturing and maintenance of the XH-2 since its deployment as well as our other experience with railguns - the Phoenix gunpod, the Talon's upgraded railguns, and our base defense railguns - we can improve the gun. The XH-3 uses more advanced self-loading systems in order to reload at a rate sufficient for fully automatic fire.
If recoil is a problem, we can just modify how much power goes to the rails per individual shot and let soldiers switch between modes, since it's all electric and computerized anyways. Several modes can exist - sniper, battle rifle, assault rifle, SMG. All just a matter of adjusting how much power the rails get. SMG gets low-enough power to allow for comparably-insane firerates, sniper rifle gets high power at low firerates, and so on. Bonus is that it lets the XH-3 be a multi-purpose weapon with very little effort from us.
TL;DR: We've spent a lot of time with the XH-2 and have done lots of railgun tech since then. Give the XH-2 (now XH-3) automatic-fire capabilities to make it a more effective combat weapon, especially in closer-range and faster-paced combat.
Revision 2. Since now we have alien containment and just imagine how juicy alien interrogation tokens would be.
Revision: ARC Thrower
1 Alien Equipment Token
Essentially, the ARC Thrower is a glorified taser modified to take advantage of what we know of alien nervous systems ((from abstracted dissections since we don't have tokens for that and we've had lots of opportunities to get them if they existed)) and to overwhelm them completely, rendering them unconcious long enough that the battle at hand may be finished and the alien may be securely detained for transportation to a containment cell.
In order to provide a (relatively) respectable range and enough power to fulfill its requirements, the ARC Thrower is fitted with a small elerium power source, like in alien equipment and the XH-2.
The ARC Thrower, for a gun, is short-ranged. But we're hoping to at least let soldiers use it from out of immediate CQC distance; we'll take whatever we can get, though. Soldiers using the ARC Thrower are instructed to prioritize completion of the mission over capturing aliens, and that we only need one alien for it to be considered a succesful mission-wide use of the ARC thrower.
Revision 3. Since we still have no real way of investigation. Sure, Strongpoint's revision tries but it's explicitly trying to just be a "passive" boost, only works in certain areas, relies on the lesser-trained IAC teams, and focuses way too much on Mimics. That's not how alien infiltration would work - they would use Mimics to gain access to VIPs, sure, but the bulk of alien infiltration would be "convincing" 100% human individuals to subtly support them/oppose XCOM. And no amount of training can let us screen entire countries for Mimics.
Revision: Investigatory Unit
1 Unit Experience Token, 1 EXALT Token
Things are not always as they seem.
Sure, maybe before the invasion we could have entrusted local government intelligence agencies to handle this. But they’re simply no longer up to the task.
Now we have secretive independent paramilitary organizations and shape shifting aliens to worry about. We can’t rely on old Earthborne methods any more.
An investigatory Unit is a NOTSOFTER trained to maneuver this new world of intelligence. While making something like this form the ground up in a revision would normally be difficult, we have a number of advantages. We take those already showing potential in the relevant fields from existing agents [Unit Experience Token]. We take the data that EXALT left behind to get a different viewpoint into these matters. We can rely on the fact that base recruitment requirements - how we recruit from top militaries and intelligence agencies ((I assume this is how we work)) - and NOTSOFTER mean our men should already be somewhat experienced and/or easy to teach on the matter.
Simply put, an Investigatory Unit is a NOTSOFTER squad with training in intelligence affairs, investigation, interrogation, and the most up-to-date briefings on anything that could possibly be relevant.
Their goal will be to locate alien/EXALT corruption and influence, to capture suspects (we hope that they can use ol’ fashioned brute force for this now - and they definitely can for humans - but while we hope it works, we don’t necessarily expect aliens to be easy capturable without special tools.), gather intelligence and information, and if possible, purge corrupting influences.
If possible ((as in, if it already does this like we intended in its own design)), the computer core in the Brazil outpost will be used to aid our operatives in data-crunching and general analysis of information acquired by Investigatory Units.
TL;DR: Use our relevant tokens to train/specialize a NOTSOFTER squad in intelligence-gathering/espionage.
Should help locate alien/exalt influence, get us intelligence (cool tokens/base locations/infiltration warnings/advanced warnings of plans/etc.) capture humans and maybe-but-probably-not aliens, and help purge bad influences.
Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2 (0):
XH-3 Railgun (1): Chiefwaffles
ARC Thrower (0):
Investigatory Unit (1): Chiefwaffles
The XH-3 greatly increases the competency of our actual mainstay units. Reminder that with our new production, we won't even be able to use Interagency Teams this turn. We'll have enough Skyrangers for all 3 NOTSOFTERS, making upgrades to IAC Teams useless.
The ARC Thrower allows us to capture aliens and get wondrous interrogation tokens.
Investigatory Unit actually lets us begin doing proper investigation.
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Short version of my revision is:
Hey, friends, we and our soldiers are quite busy fighting off that regular alien landings. Can you help us a little with finding infiltrated enemies? After all it is a part of special forces regular job. BTW, we'll provide you assistance in this task in form of training and some technology. Oh, and those mimics are quite dangerous and our combat veterans will teach you how to fight them
Chiefwaffles revision is
We ar swimming in UP and EP and actions. Lets design an investigator unit, than design investigation mission and send that unit on investigation instead of using UP (and EP from their equipment) on combat
Make your choice, people
BTW, I hope everyone sane understands that we need 4th UP this month. It is absolutely necessary. We got several VP and EP since beginning of the quest but we got no UP increase at all. We are outnumbered on land and it is getting worse.
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IAC Teams...
1.) Are significantly less-trained than NOTSOFTER.
2.) Are significantly less-equipped than NOTSOFTER, and all equipment has to be hard-revised into them.
3.) Cost the exact same as NOTSOFTER.
4.) Can only be deployed in certain areas.
5.) Rely on good relations with their host countries.
They are worse in every way than NOTSOFTER, and you're wasting a revision making them slightly less worse for some unknown reason.
Investigatory Unit is not a design, it does not need a mission, and participates in combat. But if you actually read anything other than the title, you'd know that.
Furthermore, you're ignoring the other two revisions I posted.
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quickly looking over the threat, I can't be bothered to write a revision for a flamethrower like we should be doing, so I'm just gonna vote for the investigatory unit since it seems like its nice.
Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2 (0):
XH-3 Railgun (1): Chiefwaffles
ARC Thrower (0):
Investigatory Unit (1): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian
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IAC Teams...
1.) Are significantly less-trained than NOTSOFTER.
They are trained differently not less. I expect IAC teams to be better in fighting humans and counter-intelligence missions
2.) Are significantly less-equipped than NOTSOFTER, and all equipment has to be hard-revised into them.
On other hand it means they don't spend E points
3.) Cost the exact same as NOTSOFTER.
Oh, how many times I tried to revise that... But it is irrelevant for a passive benefit I am trying to get here is the main reason of the revision. I see it more like... hm... free info from drones we get before combat.
4.) Can only be deployed in certain areas.
It is a limitation, sure. But I am ready to live with that. Help in the part of the globe is still help.
5.) Rely on good relations with their host countries.
Don't we try to keep good relationships anyway
They are worse in every way than NOTSOFTER, and you're wasting a revision making them slightly less worse for some unknown reason.
First of all not in every way, because VP have value. Also, there are further potential in revisions. But you are missing the key idea: We have this units. Units that came from rolling 8. We don't use them. We try to find a use for them. This revision is not made to bring IACT into combat and replace NOTSOFTER (even if it does makes it better here)
Investigatory Unit is not a design
It is a design that tries to be squeezed into a revision and that is your usual style of playing. Sometimes it works, sometimes don't and you go "unfortunate" and "GM is wrong" route. Also, it uses unit experience token in absolutely illogical way. We got experience in fighting and NOW we are better investigators
it does not need a mission, and participates in combat.
Their goal will be to locate alien/EXALT corruption and influence Yeah. That can be done during regular fighting
But if you actually read anything other than the title, you'd know that.
It is hard to find a polite way to answer that so I won't
Furthermore, you're ignoring the other two revisions I posted.
Do you think I have an obligation to comment every proposal?
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It is a design that tries to be squeezed into a revision and that is your usual style of playing. Sometimes it works, sometimes don't and you go "unfortunate" and "GM is wrong" route. Also, it uses unit experience token in absolutely illogical way. We got experience in fighting and NOW we are better investigators
Try reading it, please.
Seriously. That's a thing I recommend doing. Reading it. It tends to help when critiquing things.
I even put it in a neat little TL;DR for you, which you apparently and somehow missed. "Upgrade NOTSOFTER's investigatory capabilities." That's all it is. Everything is just fluff around that. We're using two tokens to make a unit better at investigating things.
Whereas your revision is "Make our worst unit type better at investigating things, make them better at fighting mimics, make them give us a passive bonus to investigating wherever they are without doing a mission, and equip them with the TAV2."
In a revision.
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but please stop trying to say “I told you so” at every possible moment.
It is indeed pointless to say "I told you so" when mistakes are never admitted and learned from anyway. I'll stop doing that.
BTW my words were directed to Happery who acted like his base is a giant factory or something, when it clearly isn't. And my offer wasn't giant barracks either
...My base was a giant factory. The base that won was also a factory. It gave us an additional VP and EP. My base might have given us two VP and no EP because it was more focused on air stuffs, but a factory is still a factory, just like your base was a giant barracks that would probably have given us another UP or two. But then, to understand these things you'd have to actually read+comprehend the thread, and you've already shown your unwillingness or inability to do such.
I mean, it would have been nice if we got ten VP, but that was never going to happen. As is, getting two tokens for a good base building roll is pretty dang nice, and they're both tokens we needed more of as our vehicle costs climb and we gain more and more types of must have equipment. 7 VP will let us deploy 3 skyrangers and two talons per mission stage, or two skyrangers, 1 talon, and two ravens if we spend our monthly increase on VP and they start throwing small UFOs in every direction independently again. Meanwhile the extra EP means that if we can get a one cost armor, we can afford to give everyone a weapon+armor upgrade if we deploy all three skyrangers, with also is pretty good. Or everyone have a weapon and TAV, or whatever.
Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2 (0):
XH-3 Railgun (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
ARC Thrower (0):
Investigatory Unit (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, Happerry
Personally I'd prefer to go for an electrolaser instead of a really big taser for our stunning weapon, so I'm against the ARC thrower. (And even if we do use the ARC thrower, for our first stunning weapon I'd prefer to use a design on that to make sure we get a good one.) Honestly, while I like the Investigatory Unit, I'd also prefer to use a design on making a specialist unit type instead of a revision, but since the last time I tried to suggest making a better unit class I got yelled at by everyone going 'oh, do not be silly, this is a realistic world where aliens shoot energy guns at people and theres no point in making specialized troop types despite that being how the source material did it' I'll take what I can get. Railgun upgrade wouldn't be bad though, even if I'd like to try to get a 'heavy railgun' design out sometime soon, before they surprise us with sectopods or reapers.
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What other specializations could we do for units?
The problem I have with it is that I can't think of and haven't seen anything that really works with the unit system. While in XCOM you had specialized units, sure, they were all specialized and a part of a single team. In here, we'd have to make an entire specialized squad, and the specialization would still have to work when a sizeable chunk of our sent forces are that specialization.
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We could go make the Breacher Team, which is trained and specialized in breaching UFOs, which we're going to need to do more as they get bigger and bigger UFOs. They've already got mediums with at least 4 transport units worth, given that small ones usually show up with only two, they had a small lander and a medium lander, and by word of 10ebbor10 they outnumbered us by 'three to one'. Think of how big a large UFO is going to be, I mean, what is it going to have six units by itself? Eight? Think about trying to take one of those things on the ground. And a unit trained for close combat internal structure fights will also probably be useful once terror missions start happening. Also, I remember at least one battle report along the lines of of 'you guys killed all the aliens outside the UFO, but could not break in to kill the rest, so the airships had to shoot it down when it tried to take off again' and we've never added shaped charges or something to bust through the doors since.
We could make specialized skirmishers, meant for medium-long ranged combat with the railgun and the TAV, trained to provide fire support for squads stuck in with the enemy without causing friendly fire, detecting and eliminating enemy flanker/scout units like the drones and mimics with the TAV, and generally acting like the traditional XCOM 'full squad of snipers'.
We can't do this yet, but eventually they're going to start throwing ethereals and other psychics at us, or finally get around to making sectiod commanders with their own psi powers, and once they do that a specialist force of 'anti-psycher' could certainly be useful. Or anti-'Giant unit' troops meant for hunting down Sectopods and Chryssalid (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/File:LW_Chryssalid_Queen.jpeg) Queens (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Chryssalid_(LW2)) and other 'titan sized' troops.
And in the long run, battle psychers would also be nice...
It's also possible that, once we design, say, anti-psycher, breacher shotgun dood, battle psycher, skirmisher, or some other combination, we could spend a revision on making a mixed squad.
I do understand that we have a lot of other stuff to do, all of which is also important, which is why I haven't been trying to talk people into a unit design every turn or something, but as time goes on, I think there's going to be a limit to how much we can improve what are effectively squaddies just by giving them better equipment, and eventually we're going to be running into elite mutons or Chryssalid-Mimic fusions or other horrors like that, and then we're going to really need more advanced troop types, and I'm worried that we'll neither have any nor have the will to design any instead of 'better gear which can surely solve this problem'.
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Actually, on that note, here's something we could do to complement a theoretical skeleton armor design:
Would work best with the XH-3, which more people should vote for by the way. Easy revision with a very nice reward!
Future Revision: Assault Squad
There's more to fighting than standing in a line and shooting at the aliens with railguns whenever they pop out of cover.
XCOM Combat is about mobility. Movement. Flanking your enemies. Avoiding being overwhelmed. And much more. Moving is everything, and we (apparently) need to train our operatives to fight accordingly. Taking advantage of whatever equipment they have - namely [SKELETON ARMOR] and the [XH-3] - they're constantly on the move to surround, flank, surprise, ambush, and just generally overwhelm our enemies. Hitting them is hard as they zip from cover to cover.
They should generally be fighting at closer range, and would have increased training in swords CQC and the like though their focus still is using guns at "close-ish" range.
TL;DR: NOTSOFTER specialized in combat mobility.
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PLATES: Passive Lightweight Armor and Tactical Equipment System
Alien Equipment Token
We have sufficient experience with alien alloy to begin the manufacturing of simple yet highly effective armor, in the form of a hybrid of medieval plate armor and scale armor. Plates cover the torso, legs, and arms, while the overlapping scales provide flexible protection for areas between the plates. To make it easier to produce this armor, some of our captured alien equipment was analyzed to attempt to determine its production methods. [excuse for token use] The plates are manufactured to be ~5mm thick on the torso, and ~2mm everywhere else, effectively the same as late-medieval/early Renaissance plate armor, yet even easier to wear due to the incredible lightness of alien alloy. These are expected to take multiple plasma hits before being compromised, on account of the durability of the metal. The scale protection, however, is very thin, and expected only to protect against a single shot. To get technical, we make alien-alloy copies of the: Cuirass, rerebraces, vambraces, cuisses, greaves, and gauntlets, filling in the gaps with the scale armor, all made of alien alloy.
Yes, this is literally a copy of a sort of partial plate armor with something like this stuff covering the gaps
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Scale_mail.jpg/800px-Scale_mail.jpg)
Since it's just doing ancient stuff with a new material, the engineering effort involved is minimal at best.
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"Upgrade NOTSOFTER's investigatory capabilities."
What the point of this without a separate investigate mission?
I think we see the whole investigate thing differently. For me investigate = chance of detection of enemy activity and\or their base. Your investigate is something like somehow get more info after victorious battles.
I can see NOTSOFTER version that is focused on capturing prisoners but you don't need to call them investigators
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Your investigate is something like somehow get more info after victorious battles.
That is true, yes.
Investigatory Units in the short term will be good for getting a better idea of the situation during and after missions. So we're more aware of what the aliens were trying to do, if there's any alien influence, EXALT influence, and the like.
But yes, a mission is required to properly investigate things. This is true no matter what we do, and it's also a bit of a chicken & egg problem; if we create an "investigate" mission first, then we won't have any units to investigate. If we create the unit first, then we won't have any dedicated missions for them to do. It may be possible to use a Design action to do both at once, but I'm not a huge fan of doing multiple only-kind-of-related things in a design and I'm not a fan of using a design for this in the first place.
So we have to choose what to do first. The Investigatory Unit is meant to be the prime choice for sending on any future theoretical "Investigate" missions while also still being helpful in regular missions as well.
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Your investigate is something like somehow get more info after victorious battles.
That is true, yes.
Investigatory Units in the short term will be good for getting a better idea of the situation during and after missions. So we're more aware of what the aliens were trying to do, if there's any alien influence, EXALT influence, and the like.
Well, it is exactly how I understood the intention from the beginning
And I think this approach is very impractical. Design action for a mission like that is quite expensive. We are always short on UP and the only scenario when I see us spending UP on that is when we have no other uses for NOTSOFTERS
Why I think my approach for investigation unit is far more practical
1) Yours spend tokens in a very illogical way. a) Hey, combat veterans, you train with each other sharing all experience you got in combat! BTW, you are better investigators now. b)We tell you, part of X-COM, what we, X-COM already know about Exalt. Hope it helps you. Compare that to my a) Hey guys, we have some experience fighting aliens and want to share it with you, b) we got some very interesting data on Exalt guys..... I'd prefer your revision without tokens to your revision with tokens
2) IAC teams are a better source material for doing investigation work. NOTSOFTERS are trained to fight aliens. IAC teams is a mix of special forces and some of them are (counter)intelligence by design. They have legal authority. They know their regions.
3) Passive effect that I try to achieve far outweighs some mythical "NOTSOFTER+" unit investigates battle site and gets some clues. Actually, I think, X-COM sends actual investigators and scientists to the site after the resolution of the battle.
4) While importance of a single VP is going down, it is not nothing. Should we go investigation mission, (I think it is when we have no reason to send units to combat, like when enemy already launched) I prefer to not spend VP on them. You may ask "but what if we want to send investigation team outside of "IAC zone?" In that case we load them into a Skyranger. IAC can be used outside of their zone they just need transport for that like any other unit.
5) Further revision potential. After revising IAC teams that way, we can upgrade them further with the most obvious direction being decreasing their cost. It is harder to come with useful upgrades for NOTSOFTER
6) UP cost. There are non-zero chance that NOTSOFTER+ will cost more than 1UP. You are hand picking among already highly trained individuals and train them further that looks like more U for me. My revision just expands cooperation and nations have huge pool of specialists to pull from, I think it is far less likely to see U cost increase
7) I see only one reason to go for this NOTSOFTER+ over my proposal. By asking someone else to do intelligence work for you, you are increasing the chance of leaks and give them some power over you and it is always better to be independent. But it is the cost I am willing to take
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1.) Nope. I clearly explain it. We use our unit experience token to make our units better. We also use our EXALT token to make our units better at recognizing and fighting EXALT.
Wow. It's almost like I explained it in the design.
2.) Where do you think we get NOTSOFTER recruits from, and how do you know that IAC teams are different?
3.) "I think" is not a valid point here, and you try to achieve an ambitious passive effect among multiple other revision-worthy items all in one revision.
4.) "WE SHOULDN'T USE VP TO TRANSPORT TEAMS FOR INVESTIGATION," Strongpoint says, immediately before saying that we should use VP to transport his version of teams for investigation.
And there's a thing called "non-bleeding-edge-transport." The Skyranger is just used when time is of the essence. Like when we're dealing with quick alien incursions. Investigations would be low-enough priority enough that we'd never have to use the Skyranger. They can just take a regular plane or car or train or boat or whatever. Unlike upgraded IAC, which has to use the Skyranger --oh, wait, IAC teams can't use the Skyranger, that's right.
Because they can't. Have you read the description for them? It's "they can only be deployed in their countries", not "they can only be deployed in their countries UNLESS YOU HAVE A SKYRANGER READY THAT IS." And your revision does nothing to address this.
5.) Or we could just upgrade our NOTSOFTER instead and not try to turn IAC into "NOTSOFTER but worse".
6.) Actually, your revision explicitly sends XCOM personnel to train these guys. That's a huge expenditure worthy of a UP increase.
7.) I mean, sure that's a benefit to Investigatory Units, but you couldn't be more wrong about that being the only reason.
EDIT: Hell, actually, when thinking about that this is a really really really really really bad flaw.
"Hey, guys," says Director Strongpoint in an address to the new IAC investigation teams. "We know you're only indirectly working for us and actually report directly to your country's leaders, but could you do us a solid and investigate your country for us? Sure, your country's leaders may be alien collaborators and, well, sure, they may have direct control over your intelligence gathered and everything you do, and I guess it's only through their grace and good will that we can even have any influence over IAC teams, but hey, I'm feeling confident that there will be no betrayals whatsoever here. None at all."
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NOTSOFTEREST : Unit experience token
NOTSOFTEREST (EST = elite strike team) are the best of the best. Physically strong X-COM veterans gathered in a special unit specialized in a close quarters combat. Most of them were masters of some martial art even before joining X-COM. In addition to standard mission equipment they carry full sized melee weapons that fully benefit from modern metallurgy, (Titanium alloys with a tiny bit of alien influence) and modern plate armors designed to withstand Mimic's natural weapons (again what X-COM metallurgy can offer + some kevlar\ceramic\other modern materials where it is more practical). Naturally, they can equip more advanced armors instead once those will become available.
Because one of the key goals of the elite strike team is capturing alive aliens for interrogation they spend a significant time of their training with Xenobiologists learning about enemy physiology and ways how to disable (or kill) them effectively.
_____________
I prefer that both to "investigator-soldiers" and just spending revision on armor. You may say that I am greedy rolling unit revision and equipment revision but I think reinventing medieval stuff is that trivial. Suggestion are welcome, especially ones that can integrate more tokens.
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...what.
You...
...you want to design hybrid melee equipment, alien plate armor, train them in CQC and train a Unit in capturing aliens alive?
How?
How do you even think this is viable?
Are you doing this on purpose?
Seriously. What the hell?
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...what.
You...
...you want to design hybrid melee equipment, alien plate armor, train them in CQC and train a Unit in capturing aliens alive?
How?
How do you even think this is viable?
Are you doing this on purpose?
Seriously. What the hell?
Yes, I absolutely think it is viable. None of those looks like overly complex stuff. I won't be surprised if it will be a hard revision but that's fine for me.
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1.) Nope. I clearly explain it. We use our unit experience token to make our units better. We also use our EXALT token to make our units better at recognizing and fighting EXALT.
Wow. It's almost like I explained it in the design.
Aren't even trying to think about what tokens represent here, nice. I hope GM doesn't look at tokens that lightly and takes into account what they actually represent outside of game mechanics element called tokens
2.) Where do you think we get NOTSOFTER recruits from, and how do you know that IAC teams are different?
We are getting NOTSOFTER from training with various agencies, taking what we need from them and combining different models for the purpose of fighting aliens. IAC teams are our connections and friends in various spec ops that have various branches
3.) "I think" is not a valid point here, and you try to achieve an ambitious passive effect among multiple other revision-worthy items all in one revision.
*yawns* yep sure. 90% of your argument are in the "I think" category. Not that I think are bad argument in a game like arms race.
4.) "WE SHOULDN'T USE VP TO TRANSPORT TEAMS FOR INVESTIGATION," Strongpoint says, immediately before saying that we should use VP to transport his version of teams for investigation.
Of course we'll prefer to look in the three IAC regions first saving that VP. It is obvious
5.) Or we could just upgrade our NOTSOFTER instead and not try to turn IAC into "NOTSOFTER but worse".
Well, if you fail to see IAC potential that NOTSOFTER can't provide... I can't help that and I am tired explaining obvious things. They are not NOTSOFTER but worse.
6.) Actually, your revision explicitly sends XCOM personnel to train these guys. That's a huge expenditure worthy of a UP increase.
It is a one time investment fully represented in the revision itself
Have you read the description for them? It's "they can only be deployed in their countries", not "they can only be deployed in their countries UNLESS YOU HAVE A SKYRANGER READY THAT IS.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America/South America or Europe]
One doesn't need much intelligence to understand that "when" here implies that they can be used outside of three listed regions but need a vehicle. So, HAVE YOU READ THE DESCRIPTION OF THEM? You need to train your reading skills if you did.
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Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2 (0):
XH-3 Railgun (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman
ARC Thrower (0):
Investigatory Unit (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, Happerry
PLATE: (1) Madman
I hate to tie it up, but I think we need an infantry improvement more than we need immediate investigation ability. Also, I think that a unit type and a mission type could be combined into a design SoonTM, so we don't have to spend additional UP (I can't imagine that we'd get both a combat-capable and investigation-capable unit for the same price, since we'd need one unit to do both to be worth deploying without a special mission).
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Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2 (0):
XH-3 Railgun (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman
ARC Thrower (0):
Investigatory Unit (4): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, Happerry, strongpoint
PLATE: (1) Madman
Lesser evil kind of vote
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...
Lesser evil than letting our guys continue to get wrecked on the field because they're unarmored and improperly armed for close combat?
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...
Lesser evil than letting our guys continue to get wrecked on the field because they're unarmored and improperly armed for close combat?
I think this railgun revision isn't doing enough. Plus I am allergic to revisions that don't use tokens when we sit on a pile of them.
Also, I am curious to see how GM will interpret that investigation unit, while I think it is a bad idea in this form, at least it is not boringly straightforward.
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I'm going to re-tie it, sorry.
Because on second thought I don't think we can properly rely on having one more unit to help at ground. An Investigatory Unit would be really useful (and I agree with Madman's notion that we should do a combo Unit/Mission design soon™) but I think we almost desperately need something to directly help our infantry. Investigatory Units don't hurt our infantry, but at best they're no better than a different NOTSOFTER.
Whereas the XH-3 is easy. It takes advantage of the fact that we've been manufacturing and using the XH-2 for a while now, it takes advantage of the fact that we have made three different railgun designs. All for something that's somewhat minor in terms of complexity while being a huge advantage.
When we're fighting aliens that outnumber us at least 2:1 (if we deploy 3 units) and likely worse, and a good portion of those aliens prefer to fight at close range, we desperately need to stop giving every soldier a freaking sniper rifle and give them something that will massively improve performance.
Not that I'm rooting against Investigatory Units. I'd just slightly prefer the XH-3 over it.
Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2 (0):
XH-3 Railgun (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman
ARC Thrower (0):
Investigatory Unit (3): Blood_Librarian, Happerry, strongpoint
PLATE: (1) Madman
So to sum up what I just said.
- Investigatory Unit is nice but we really need better infantry combat right now.
- XH-3 is easy and should be extremely effective.
- We can use a design soon™ to make both the Investigatory Unit and a basic mission for them at the same time, eliminating the chicken-egg problem.
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I point out that the easy solution to being outnumbered is to make it take them more effort to kill each individual soldier.
Vote PLATE, make those aliens regret trying to get medieval with their close-combat shenanigans!
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Or one can vote for a specialized close combat unit. It will work far better than armor alone. We got alien containment, getting guys that can capture those aliens alive is a good route
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No, no it won't, because they'll STILL GET SHOT, but they'll have the added advantage of only being able to fight at close range, where it's even EASIER to shoot them.
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It'd be a really bad idea to have a close combat unit when right now every soldier uses a glorified sniper rifle and getting shot is pretty much a 100% death rate.
We should definitely have armor and better close-range weaponry before we try to do a close-range combat unit (and no, we cannot develop close-range weaponry in the same revision as a close-range unit because that's not how ARs work). I'd prefer it if the armor was something like Hunter Armor, but even Madman's plate armor would work.
Right now our gear leads to a strategy of "stand very very far away and pick them off." Our gun is - again - a glorified sniper rifle. Our armor is nonexistent. We even have a SCOPE for our gun. We have visors that highlight targets but are super unergonomic (and thus not great for mobility) and unreliable.
We should wait until we have gear better fit for close-range combat.
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If we make a close combat specialist unit, we'll need to make them a shotgun and stunblade or something akin to that combo too. We don't actually have any good close ranged combat stuff right now besides the mundane grenade and pistol. Which isn't to say that I don't want to create a Breacher squad sometime soon, I just don't have any confidence in getting people to make them actual specialist equipment... Besides maybe a taser.
Well, anyway, the reason I'm not voting for Plate is that I want our armor design to have the TAV built into it, so we don't have to spend points on them separately when we're going to want everything to have them. Other then that it seems a pretty decent first generation armor.
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Why, in a protection sort of sense, is hunter armor better than plate-style armor? I understand that Hunter armor has fancy gadgets, but disregarding those since they can be integrated into plate-style protection, why do you think it's better?
The reason PLATE doesn't include TAV is because we need more work to make TAV better. An "all the fancy extras" would be my design plan for next turn.
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Yes. It's the gadgets.
I think the gadgets are more than worth it, and with Hunter Armor we can do both the gadgets and the armor in one design, while ensuring they integrate together nicely. We can spend a revision and design, or we can spend a design. Though I do want to wait for an alloy token to do it (and while I hope for one this following turn I think armor isn't critical priority and it can wait another turn if required).
That and I think "gadgets" undersells it a bit. The stuff integrated in Hunter Armor would be really helpful for our soldiers.
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Yes, but not NEARLY as useful as simply being protected. Also, far better to leave open a design to make TAV better, integrate it with the armor, and invent all those fancy extras, than to chance everything on the one design/one roll. Also, if we do PLATE now, we have armor *NOW*, making it perhaps much more likely (given a halfway-decent roll) that we might receive tokens.
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I think the impact of the XH-3 would be pretty significant, personally. The opportunity cost of plate armor makes the advantages of "do it now" notably less effective. You could argue that plate armor would have a better short-term impact than an XH-3, but I'd rather get the XH-3 and armor done with two actions, rather than three actions. Even if plate armor is some degree better in the short run, the difference in action economy makes it worth it in my opinion.
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PLATE has a much lesser potential opportunity cost, though. It definitely costs a revision, but makes the design less risky. Also, burst-fire just isn't good enough. Railguns can have scaled power quite easily, so if you just put a literal slider on the stock or something for "how much electricity goes into the rails" and then improved the feeding mechanism, you can fire single powerful shots or huge numbers of less-powerful (and thus easier to control) shots.
Oh, and it'll be cheaper than armor-with-all-the-gadgets, so we might also get an early warning about how expensive our stuff might become, and thus how much we should actually include in the gadgetry design.
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So, can I have a tiebreaker?
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Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2 (0):
XH-3 Railgun (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman
ARC Thrower (0):
Investigatory Unit (4): Blood_Librarian, Happerry, strongpoint,Pavellius
PLATE: (1) Madman
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So, I should screen proposals closer, and inform you ahead of time.
There's an issue with the winning design.
Revision: Investigatory Unit
1 Unit Experience Token, 1 EXALT Token
Things are not always as they seem.
Sure, maybe before the invasion we could have entrusted local government intelligence agencies to handle this. But they’re simply no longer up to the task.
Now we have secretive independent paramilitary organizations and shape shifting aliens to worry about. We can’t rely on old Earthborne methods any more.
An investigatory Unit is a NOTSOFTER trained to maneuver this new world of intelligence. While making something like this form the ground up in a revision would normally be difficult, we have a number of advantages. We take those already showing potential in the relevant fields from existing agents [Unit Experience Token]. We take the data that EXALT left behind to get a different viewpoint into these matters. We can rely on the fact that base recruitment requirements - how we recruit from top militaries and intelligence agencies ((I assume this is how we work)) - and NOTSOFTER mean our men should already be somewhat experienced and/or easy to teach on the matter.
Simply put, an Investigatory Unit is a NOTSOFTER squad with training in intelligence affairs, investigation, interrogation, and the most up-to-date briefings on anything that could possibly be relevant.
Their goal will be to locate alien/EXALT corruption and influence, to capture suspects (we hope that they can use ol’ fashioned brute force for this now - and they definitely can for humans - but while we hope it works, we don’t necessarily expect aliens to be easy capturable without special tools.), gather intelligence and information, and if possible, purge corrupting influences.
If possible ((as in, if it already does this like we intended in its own design)), the computer core in the Brazil outpost will be used to aid our operatives in data-crunching and general analysis of information acquired by Investigatory Units.
[/quote]
A different viewpoint is not enough information for what you intend a token to do.
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Does the Exalt Intel token represent what we know about Exalt, or some intel documents that the Exalt soldiers left behind?
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The latter, which of course becomes the former.
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Well my vote stands, same but without exalt token is fine for me
10ebbor10 Just curious, would Exalt token work in the design below?
Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams: 1 unit experience, 1 Exalt intelligence
Suspecting infiltration of enemy Mimics (also knows as skin crawlers) into Earth organizations, X-COM took effort to eradicate those out. Lacking resources, expertise and necessary for such work X-COM asked for assistance from its friends from Inter agency cooperation teams and sent its instructors to share all combat experience of fighting vs Mimics.
In addition to sending instructors X-COM offered help in supplying Inter agency cooperation teams with some key components of TAV2 (along with blueprints that allow to produce less sophisticated elements outside of X-COM) and donating part X-COM's stockpiled firearms and ammunition
Additionally, X-COM shared intelligence data on Exalt, hoping to find help in finding this mysterious 3rd side. After completion of training X-COM asked their friends in special forces to actively search for Exalt and infiltrated mimics.
(Expected mechanics effects: Unused Inter Agency Cooperation teams will give passive benefit to a chance to detect alien\Exalt activity in their region. Inter agency cooperation teams will become better in fighting aliens, especially mimics. They will be partially equipped with TAV2s.)
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That’s a super easy modification. I’ll make it to the design within an hour about.
But I recommend voting for the XH-3 because we will lose at ground if we don’t.
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Just curious, would Exalt token work in the design below?
It's a better, but the problem there is that the mechanic is impossible. You deploy your squads after the aliens act. It's thus impossible for unused squads to aid in detecting aliens, as you haven't decided whether or not you use them yet.
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Okay. Again.
We will lose at ground if we do not upgrade our infantry. While I prefer the XH-3, it doesn't matter what exactly we do - we just need to upgrade our infantry. Strongpoint's thing and the Investigatory Unit don't do that.
Furthermore, Investigatory Units (and any other investigation-focused unit revision for that matter) just won't be useful as a revision. It can't be. We need a mission and a unit type. Hence, I propose this:
1.) People vote for the XH-3.
2.) We do this design very soon:
Future Design: XCOM Investigation
1 Unit Experience Token, 1 EXALT Token
The aliens have Mimics that can look just like humans. There's a paramilitary organization with goals independent of us moving around, clearly with ties to individuals and organizations of notable power and wealth. We can't just pretend that outright fighting is the only theatre we'll have to participate in.
XCOM Investigation covers the introduction of XCOM into formal investigation of these matters. XCOM already has informants across the globe, but we need formal and trained teams to investigate these matters. People who can get into places, people who don't look like XCOM, people who can recognize alien, persuade people, "persuade" people, and act as formal XCOM agents abroad. Their objective will be to locate hostile influences and, if possible, eliminate them, as well as unofficially acting as "ambassadors" - knowing that XCOM is hard at work ensuring your country is free of alien infiltration would be quite a relief to those in power and increase their confidence in the XCOM project.
Investigation Units - the teams of trained agents - can be sent out to any individual country(/continent?) to fulfill their objectives as ordered by XCOM when deemed necessary.
The general notes on alien operation and training of men for situations involving aliens (Unit Experience) will be of great use for this project. As will using stolen EXALT intelligence (EXALT token) with what we can gleam of their operation methods and what they know about the aliens already in order to give our operatives an idea of what to expect with more subtle situations.
This way we can get actual competent investigation efforts while ensuring our infantry doesn't lose horribly again this turn. We can't afford further ground losses. If you vote for the XH-3, we can do the above design (or something like it) soon to handle investigation while not losing horribly to the aliens on ground.
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I frankly don't even care if the XH3 wins now (though obviously I'd prefer either PLATE or a fully-automatic version of the railgun), just so long as we don't toss the infantry under the not-actually-proverbial bomb-launching alien bus of doom.
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The general notes on alien operation and training of men for situations involving aliens (Unit Experience) will be of great use for this project. As will using stolen EXALT intelligence (EXALT token) with what we can gleam of their operation methods and what they know about the aliens already in order to give our operatives an idea of what to expect with more subtle situations.
This is even vaguer than the previous iteration.
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I don't think burst-fire has that notable of a difference with full-automatic. Especially when they're both compared to upgrading to burst from semi-auto.
But I'll modify the XH-3 to make burst-fire optional in the sense of "automatic would be nice but we wouldn't complain about burst-fire." It'll probably still be burst-fire on a non-crit role, but it shouldn't add difficulty and it's better than making burst-fire a required part of the design.
And yes. Just anything upgrading our infantry would be nice. We can't just ignore on the ground when we lost so horrifically there last time. Adding another Unit won't fix it.
The general notes on alien operation and training of men for situations involving aliens (Unit Experience) will be of great use for this project. As will using stolen EXALT intelligence (EXALT token) with what we can gleam of their operation methods and what they know about the aliens already in order to give our operatives an idea of what to expect with more subtle situations.
This is even vaguer than the previous iteration.
Okay, I completely disagree (and that isn't meant to be taken as this turn's reivsions) considering we didn't have to be this specific for any other token, but whatever.
We use the Unit Experience token to train our agents.
We use EXALT intel to learn about how EXALT operates, and see if we can find anything about what they know about aliens. Then we incorporate that into agent training to better prepare them for what to expect.
But with that being said, I'd prefer a bit longer on the revision if possible. I won't complain if it goes regardless since it's not exactly within my rights or abilities to delay an update, but personally I'd like to at least see if Madman and I reach anyone with our arguments first.
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Burst fire is, in the technical sense, harder than full-auto. At least, it is with a conventional firearm. Here it's all computerized, and the difference between "burst" and "auto" is whether or not the electricity stops after 3 rounds.
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Basically, I just didn't want the revision to try and absorb the difficulty of handling recoil in full-auto. We definitely have a very manageable recoil for the gun to be as useable as it is right now, but I don't think that it's quite at "easily handled at full-auto without upgrading" levels yet. And I want the revision to focus on the burst/auto-fire part, not the recoil part.
I'll make the revision reflect that more accurately. So less "make it burst-fire" and more "don't worry too much about recoil".
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Actually, you'd just need a slider to control the strength of each shot. The gun is already computerized, otherwise it'd be full-auto now (though with a slow loading system). You just need to tell the computer "less power, but don't stop feeding power in" and boom, full-auto with less recoil.
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Switching my vote to XH3 (if possible).
Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2 (0):
XH-3 Railgun (4): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, Pavellius
ARC Thrower (0):
Investigatory Unit (3): Blood_Librarian, Happerry, strongpoint
PLATE: (1) Madman
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Good point, Madman, I'll edit that in.
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Sniper rifle, battle rifle, assault rifle, and submachine gun, all in one.
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Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2 (0):
XH-3 Railgun (4): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, Pavellius, Blood_Librarian
ARC Thrower (0):
Investigatory Unit (2): Happerry, strongpoint
PLATE: (1) Madman
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Okay, I completely disagree (and that isn't meant to be taken as this turn's reivsions) considering we didn't have to be this specific for any other token, but whatever.
In the previous tokens, you were far more specific. To take the Talon as an example :
- Alien alloy was used to reinforce and strengthen the armor
- Power core was used to inttegrate a power core
- Propulsion was used for your specific engine
I can do the same thing with your base. The big fancy computer is intended to do the analysis and look for aliens.
We use the Unit Experience token to train our agents.
Using Unit experience to train agents is as vague as can be. Any action of any sort will involve training agents.
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That's because the other tokens are far more specific. Alien alloy is a specific material, power core is a power core, propulsion is propulsion. It's easy to use these tokens more specifically when they themselves are more specific. It's hard to know what to do with just a nebulous "Unit Experience."
Regardless, I should be able to describe it better when I next post a design using the token. For now, it's not relevant since the XH-3 is winning over Investigatory Units.
Also, edit done to the XH-3. Link is here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168642.msg7698161#msg7698161) for those who don't want to go hunting for it.
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Anti mimic training of Inter agency cooperation teams (2): Strongpoint, Pavellius
Rockbreaker Missiles Mk. 2 (0):
XH-3 Railgun (5): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, Pavellius, Blood_Librarian, Happerry
ARC Thrower (0):
Investigatory Unit (1): strongpoint
PLATE: (1) Madman
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Why not use the experience token to teach the NS dudes how to use the new equipment really well?
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XH-3 Railgun (Edited - changed wording around recoil and whatnot)
The XH-2 is a solid railgun, but it's still effectively a glorified prototype.
By drawing on our experience with the manufacturing and maintenance of the XH-2 since its deployment as well as our other experience with railguns - the Phoenix gunpod, the Talon's upgraded railguns, and our base defense railguns - we can improve the gun. The XH-3 uses more advanced self-loading systems in order to reload at a rate sufficient for fully automatic fire.
If recoil is a problem, we can just modify how much power goes to the rails per individual shot and let soldiers switch between modes, since it's all electric and computerized anyways. Several modes can exist - sniper, battle rifle, assault rifle, SMG. All just a matter of adjusting how much power the rails get. SMG gets low-enough power to allow for comparably-insane firerates, sniper rifle gets high power at low firerates, and so on. Bonus is that it lets the XH-3 be a multi-purpose weapon with very little effort from us.
TL;DR: We've spent a lot of time with the XH-2 and have done lots of railgun tech since then. Give the XH-2 (now XH-3) automatic-fire capabilities to make it a more effective combat weapon, especially in closer-range and faster-paced combat.
Normal : 3 + 1 = 4 Below Average
The XH-3 consists of a set of simple modifications to it's predecessor, the XH-2. The reloading mechanism has been reworked to allow fully automatic fire rate, and the devices firmware has been adjusted to allow soldiers to pick from various firerates and corresponding muzzle velocities. We also added a small supercapacitor, in order to allow the system to accumulate sufficient power for high power single shots, or for rapid fire action.
While the weapon is versatile, the basic design means that it's not well suited for all applications. Optimal functionality remains in the original configuration, with both rapid fire and high power fire being less than perfect, suffering from capacitor depletion and recoil respectively. Those are relatively minor issues.
UFO DETECTED
Craft: Medium Lander
Destination: India
Altitude : Low altitude
Mission : Harvest ?
Bogey 25 is one of the alien's big lander vessel.It's currently slowing down and heading for a landing in India. Behavioral analysis and the choice of the landing terrain suggests that this one of the alien's large scale kidnapping operations.
As a heads up, current local time is the middle of the night.
Craft: Small Lander, Small Fighter
Destination: Russia
Altitude: Orbital
26 and 27 are coming down from orbit near Russia. They consist of a small alien lander, and was as one of their smaller fighters. Insufficient data was present to devise their intent.
Craft: Small Lander, Small Fighter
Units: Skin Crawlers/Mimics , Sectoid
Destination: Mexico
Altitude : Take-off
We spotted these last 2 in Mexico, shortly after they'd taken off again. Behavioral analysis is unable to deduce their purpose here, the village they chose to accost did not fit in with their typical abduction targets, and they don't appear to have abducted anyone.
UAV footage managed to spot 1 unit of Skin Crawlers and some Sectoids as they clambered back into the UFO. The sectoid appears to be carrying some new type of weapon.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Talon (Interceptor) : Integrating copious amounts of Alien Technology, the Talon is grav-wave propelled, heavily armored interceptor. Has 18 hard points for missiles and 2 nose mounts, fitted with a railgun by default. Cost : 3 VP. (1 Token worth free)
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-3 Railgun Rifle : An effective and versatile rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. Capable of firing in full automatic, semi-automatic and single shots, with progressively stronger shots as fire rate decreases. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets. Best efficiency in semi-automatic mode, with automatic and single shot suffering from capacitor depletion and recoil respectively.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Rockbreaker Missile: A missile coated in a very thin alien alloy and equipped with a volatile destabilized elerium powercell as warhead. Will detonate if exposed to shock or heat. Cost : 1 EP for 8.
TAV-2: A cobbled together combat visor that can identify and highlight aliens, including disguised ones. Fragile, cobbled together and decidly unergonomic.
Cost : 1 EP
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America/South America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Brazil Jungle Base [A relatively isolated, partially underground base in the Brazilian Jungle]
- Alien Computing Systems
- Aircraft Maintenance and Hangar facility : +1 VP
- Equipment Production facilities : +1 EP
- Primitive alien containment
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
7 VP
3 UP
5+1 EP
2 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 VP Token, 1 Exalt Intel Token
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Revision Phase
Turn 8
Month end : Gain 1 free VP; UP or EP point
AABBCCDD
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So, XH-3 seems perfectly serviceable. Due for another revision/fancy design in the near-ish future, but even a slightly-flawed automatic (and better single-shot!) weapon should do wonders for our troops.
Anyways.
We can, with the right token usage, field 3 Talons and 2 Skyrangers. They've split up their air forces enough so that this should be seriously viable. While I would like to see what their mission in Mexico is, they've given a golden opportunity here - their Medium Lander is completely unescorted.
For comparison, last turn we sent two XH-2-wielding NOTSOFTER to the landing site of a Medium Lander + Small Lander + Regular Fighter. They outnumbered us, and our Talons couldn't provide air support since they were somehow pre-occupied by a single fighter. Now they just have on unescorted Medium Lander.
They have less numbers this time. They have no air support, and we do (meaning our Talon could eliminate their mortar either during interception or on an air strike on the landed/crashed UFO). We have the XH-3, which should both just be a really nice general upgrade to our troops and also hopefully a soft-counter to their mortar, since our strategy no longer relies on being able to sit in one place and camp the aliens from afar.
Also, fun fact, we can reliably use the ground support missile package without worrying too much about aerial performance because our missiles suck at air now!
This is our opportunity to grab a Medium Lander.
Operation Crystal Prophet
Production/Logistics
Spend CW's Token on Talon.
Choose 1 VP for month-end bonus.
3 Talons (3+3+1=7 VP)
2 Skyrangers (1+0=1 VP)
6 Phoenix Gunpods (2 EP)
2 NOTSOFTER Squads w/ XH-3 Rifles & TAV2s (2 UP; 4 EP)
Combined Arms: Bogey 025 (India, Landing)
1 Talon w/ Ground Combat Package & 2x Phoenix
2 Skyrangers w/ 2x Phoenix
2 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-3 Rifles & TAV2s
Intercept: Bogeys 026-027 (Russia, Orbital)
1 Talon w/ 1x Phoenix
Intercept: Bogeys 028-029 (Mexico, Taking Off)
1 Talon w/ 1x Phoenix
OPERATION CRYSTAL PROPHET (1): Chiefwaffles
The Talon escorting our Skyrangers should effectively have no A2A missiles, though I didn't look at the exacts. Considering their low performance, they're just replaced with A2G missiles (the first time we'd be using the Ground Combat Package, actually!) and two Phoenixes. Phoenixes are also given to every other craft to help the other Talons with the whole "useless missiles" thing and to Skyrangers for air support ability.
Considering the Talon's effectiveness, it should be able to handle a Small Lander/Small Fighter fairly easily (especially when 026-027 are coming from orbit).
Sidenote: Ebbor, you forgot to assign the VP token from last turn to the Talon and my token isn't listed. It's all accounted for in my plan, but just letting you know.
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OPERATION CRYSTAL PROPHET (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
Seems good enough.
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I strongly believe that we should spend end of month token on U and not overinvest in VP even if it may be the best solution for this turn. Also, there are simply no reason to not send a single IAC team in Russia or Mexico for possible mopping up of result's of Talon's work if you have that free UP.
My prefered course of action would be the same plan as above but buy one less Talon, ignore Mexico and send 4 NOTSFOTERS in India
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Hooray humanity I will join next phase.
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What stops you from voting right now?
_______
OPERATION MYTHRIL HAMMER
Production/Logistics
CW's Token spent on Talon. (I consider plan above to be a declaration of such spending)
Choose 1 UP for month-end bonus.
2 Talons (3+1=4 VP)
4 Skyrangers (3+0=3 VP)
3 Phoenix Gunpods (1 EP)
4 NOTSOFTER Squads w/ 2 XH-3 Rifles & 3 TAV2s (4 UP; 5 EP)
Combined Arms: Bogey 025 (India, Landing)
1 Talon w/ Ground Combat Package
4 Skyrangers w/ 3x Phoenix
4 NOTSOFTER w/ 2 XH-3 Rifles & 3 TAV2s
Intercept: Bogeys 026-027 (Russia, Orbital)
1 Talon
They already did most of the damage in Mexico and I absolutely don't want to fight outnumbered in India. Our forces being underequiped is unpleasant and I strongly considered adding one more XH-3 but I think air support\limited self-defense of Skyranger to be more than a single set of XH-s or TAVs. BTW, we need 2U point units ASAP.
OPERATION CRYSTAL PROPHET (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
OPERATION MYTHRIL HAMMER (1): Strongpoint
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I need to read a bit on this.
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OPERATION CRYSTAL PROPHET (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman
OPERATION MYTHRIL HAMMER (1): Strongpoint
CP hits every target with a perfect amount of force. MH refuses to strike a target in favor of just dumping more men on our problems, which is not a really viable XCOM strategy.
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I don't consider 2 units of infantry to be a perfect amount of force against one medium lander. Also, long term we need UP more than VP
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I don't consider 2 units of infantry to be a perfect amount of force against one medium lander. Also, long term we need UP more than VP
I agree that 2 units isn't optimal, but it's what we can give without sacrificing other things. I don't think it's worth it to focus more on the medium lander if it means we have to let a another bogey get away free.
Also, until we get more efficient troop transport, I think we need more VP than UP.
On a different topic, it is possible that the medium lander is a distraction. It has happened before hasn't it? (Then again, maybe this time it isn't, but that want us to think it is.)
OPERATION CRYSTAL PROPHET (4): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, Pavellius
OPERATION MYTHRIL HAMMER (1): Strongpoint
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Also, until we get more efficient troop transport, I think we need more VP than UP.
We have enough VP to use Skyrangers. Or we can (and should) get units that cost more than 1 UP. Note that unless we get unit token (doubtful) or design UP producing facility we are stuck with 3UP
I agree that 2 units isn't optimal, but it's what we can give without sacrificing other things. I don't think it's worth it to focus more on the medium lander if it means we have to let a another bogey get away free.
I expect something like 2xsectoid + 1xmimic + 1xdrones. It is seriously outnumbered even with air support we have. Is a chance to deny them a token over Mexico worth fighting battle that hard?
In any case, I don't think it is optimal to not use IAC team in Mexico or Russia if we are going for 2 Skyrangers. Sure, they are likely to die but this may be our first and last time we use them.
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We have some serious air support this time around - the Talon can focus on air support and is using our G2A missiles for the first time. Our soldiers are using the XH-3, which is a really nice advantage, and we won’t be outnumbered as much.
And I doubt it’s a distraction because we didn’t immediately pick it up as it entered the atmosphere and the computer+heuristics didn’t report anything out of the ordinary.
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Joining in on the side of Humanity.
OPERATION CRYSTAL PROPHET (5): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, Pavellius, Emral282
OPERATION MYTHRIL HAMMER (1): Strongpoint
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My one qualm with the plan is that two of our planes are fighting 1v2 against an apparently very effective shielding system. Regardless, this may be the best use of our resources. There soon shall be an end to the xeno scum that infest our skies, should we succeed, and especially so if we recover a power core from their ship.
OPERATION CRYSTAL PROPHET (6): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, Pavellius, Emral282, tonnot98
OPERATION MYTHRIL HAMMER (1): Strongpoint
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Combined Arms: Bogey 025 (India, Landing)
1 Talon w/ Ground Combat Package & 2x Phoenix
2 Skyrangers w/ 2x Phoenix
2 NOTSOFTER w/ XH-3 Rifles & TAV2s
Covered by darkness, the aliens have landed their UFO straight in the center of this small town. Drones float through the sky, hunting down the humans they haven't yet discovered. Occasionally, groups of sectoids leave their vessel, bringing back more victims to their craft.
XCOM's arrival is sudden and explosive. One moment everything is ordinary, and then two missiles burst out from the landed alien craft, darting towards the incoming Talon. Not a moment later, explosions engulf the UFO. The armored dome hiding the mortar is hit by several high velocity railgun shells, tearing through and reducing the weapon to scrap. More explosions follow as our ground to air bombs tear through the vehicle, shredding the hull and the outer sections.
Our own Talon however, does not come easily. The jet staggers as the two alien missiles explode around it, tearing away it's armament and armor. Two large holes have been punched straight through it's thick armor, with high energy plasma having melted several important parts of the grav wave engine and impinged on the reactor containment. Struggling, the vehicle turns around and heads back towards the nearest safe airfield.
The enemy missiles have been spent however, and our Skyrangers have a far easier job of mopping up the remainders. The TAV is a usefull asset in night missions like this, though it remains a bit of a hazard. Our opposition, primarily sectoids, continue to show remarkable awareness of our location, but their inferior weaponry and non-existent armor suffers greatly against our new Railrifles. At high power, the weapon can easily punch through large structures, while in rapid fire mode it supress or kill larger groups.
Without support from their UFO, and with Skyrangers raining down death from above, it's not long before we have secured victory.
Unfortunately, it's a victory that has come at serious cost. During the initial bombardement, only of our missiles set the UFO's storage areas aflame. By the time the blaze could be extinguished, almost all of the alien's captives had expired from fire or smoke.
Mission Success : Alien alloy, alien equipment
Intercept: Bogeys 026-027 (Russia, Orbital)
1 Talon w/ 1x Phoenix
Two UFO's descend from orbit, the heat of reentry blinding their sensors for but a moment as they drop down towards the Earth. They find a Talon waiting for them, armed to the teeth with missiles and railguns. The initial barrage strikes the small fighter, shattering's it's hull with railgun projectiles.
The small scout lasts but a moment longer, it's missile defenses soon overwhelmed by a deadly barrage.
Mission success
Intercept: Bogeys 028-029 (Mexico, Taking Off)
1 Talon w/ 1x Phoenix
Our Talon managed to intercept the enemy UFO's just as they planned to leave for orbit. The exchange was brief but brutal. The Talon tore apart their escorting light fighter, but not before the craft could launch it's twin missiles. Despite the severe damage sustained in that exchange, the pilot chose to continue pursuit, but failed to destroy the UFO before he was forced to return to base by damaged reactor system.
Partial Success
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Talon (Interceptor) : Integrating copious amounts of Alien Technology, the Talon is grav-wave propelled, heavily armored interceptor. Has 18 hard points for missiles and 2 nose mounts, fitted with a railgun by default. Cost : 3 VP. (1 Token worth free)
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-3 Railgun Rifle : An effective and versatile rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. Capable of firing in full automatic, semi-automatic and single shots, with progressively stronger shots as fire rate decreases. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets. Best efficiency in semi-automatic mode, with automatic and single shot suffering from capacitor depletion and recoil respectively.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Rockbreaker Missile: A missile coated in a very thin alien alloy and equipped with a volatile destabilized elerium powercell as warhead. Will detonate if exposed to shock or heat. Cost : 1 EP for 8.
TAV-2: A cobbled together combat visor that can identify and highlight aliens, including disguised ones. Fragile, cobbled together and decidly unergonomic.
Cost : 1 EP
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America/South America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Brazil Jungle Base [A relatively isolated, partially underground base in the Brazilian Jungle]
- Alien Computing Systems
- Aircraft Maintenance and Hangar facility : +1 VP
- Equipment Production facilities : +1 EP
- Primitive alien containment
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
7 VP
3 UP
5+1 EP
3 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 VP Token, 1 Exalt Intel Token, 1 alien equipment
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Revision Phase
Turn 8
Month end : Gain 1 free VP; UP or EP point
AABBCCDD
[/quote]
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The storage compartment bit is annoying but ALIEN ALLOYS BAYBEEEE
I may post another design later. I think we should either do this or upgrade the Talon. The Talon works wonders right now, but we are dangerously close to being outclassed if they upgrade their missiles. If we don't design something that helps at air this turn, then we should at least use our revision to fix Rockbreaker missiles.
Also two other things to consider are Investigation and Alien Capture. It wouldn't be the worst idea to do one of those two things instead for our design (while focusing air for revision). How would we handle a capture design, actually? I feel like an Arc Thrower is a bit too much for a revision and a bit too little for a design.
Design: Hunter Armor
2 Alien Equipment Tokens, 1 Alien Alloy Token
Hunter Armor is a set of personal armor taking full advantage of the nature of alien alloys. Namely, the fact that alien alloys are really light while being really strong and can somehow absorb blunt forces.
First element is, well, the alloy armor. Armor covers pretty much all of the body; though we want to preserve mobility (even with the lightness of alloy, if you put enough on a person eventually they start getting encumbered) and expense. Regardless, survivability should be up insane levels thanks to the super-miracle material that is alien alloys. We use a Alloy Token to help with the proper integration of alloy into proper personal armor here, which should hopefully free up some time and effort for other parts of Hunter armor.
A helmet incorporates an improved version of the TAV2. Namely "not prone to breakage if someone makes a mean joke about it in its proximity"-improved. The sensors are integrated into the suit and the helmet visor incorporates the HUD, which can be turned on and off at will. This should allow our operatives to always benefit from the TAV2 without suffering from its bulky and fragile nature. Some learning of how aliens make small yet effective devices from alien equipment should help a lot in fitting a TAV into the armor without bugs or increased cost.
A simple system in the back, near the spine, monitors vital signs and distributes various medicines when needed. It's not a huge deal since we don't have medkits yet are just using standard non-bleeding-edge drugs - painkillers, stimulants, anesthetics, etc. - in low quantities, but it should at least be a notable aid. Enough to keep a soldier from death for a couple hours or to keep someone fighting for a few more minutes. That kind of thing. The vital sign monitoring system is also networked with the integrated TAV, meaning the status of Hunter armor-wearing soldiers is visible to all other agents so they may react appropriately and just be better aware of injuries.
Moving past all the hybrid alien groundbreaking technology advancing human knowledge and our view of reality as we know it, we approach the most important feature:
A grappling hook.
It turns out that when your armor is sufficiently light and when you can reinforce the cable with alien alloys, you can create an extremely effective grappling hook. In order to ensure the viability of the grappling hook, we're using some alien equipment parts to more properly integrate the systems, from just getting an idea of how to properly build the grappling hook, to integrating an elerium power supply in order to ensure it has enough power to actually take advantage of the alloy-reinforced cable. The grappling hook will be mounted on the wrist. It shouldn't matter how much horizontal or vertical distance or if there's a wall to support you - if the cable can reach it, it should zip the soldier over there ((read: we're aiming for the same ability as XCOM1 and XCOM2 grappling hooks)).
Imagine. Our soldiers zipping across the sites, confusing aliens, using the integrated TAV to get the advantage on them and always be aware. Never being in one place. Their armor keeping them alive.
DESIGN
Hunter Armor (1): Chiefwaffles
Also at some point we should probably deal with their battlefield awareness thing (which is 100% psionics).
EDIT: Ebbor, can we use multiple tokens of the same type in one action? Like 2 Equipment tokens.
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Ripper Combat Crawler Drone
1 Alien Equipment Token
The Ripper is a combat drone, designed to deploy in combat zones, where it would act as both a disposable recon element and as close quarters combatant. Each Ripper is equipped with an elerium Core, a light alloy casing, and muffled foot pads and joints for stealth operations. These Drones would take advantage of the TA System sensors, which would allow both its remote operator and soldiers on the field to view exactly what the machine sees. Minimal problems are expected with using TA sensors due to the lack of ergonomics that has to be considered in addition to the possibility of reinforced sensor bulbs. in addition the lack of a built-in screen simplifies its construction. Its method of locomotion is simple, it has four legs, and its hind legs are equipped with Hydraulic Springs, designed to push the Ripper, and leap forward with explosive power in a manner by which it can quickly close the gap between an enemy combatant and quickly neutralize it after stealthily reaching leap range. This is most similar to a grasshopper, and its role as an ambush predator is exemplified. It is controlled remotely by operators at the base and is augmented by available processing power, particularly in Brazil, to translate human controls into its fast, fluid, and murderous speed. In addition, each drone is equipped with an Adaptive interface, allowing technicians with (potential) assistance from the Brazilian computer system to interface with alien equipment.
There have been discussions on how exactly to arm it, and three proposals have been put forward for our team to consider.
- Variant A is designed with exclusively an Electrical discharge nozzle, referred to as an "Arc Thrower", which will be used to knock combatants unconscious with a burst of electricity from the Elerium Reactor. It would be preferred if this burst could be done with some range, but close or melee contact would be acceptable. Due to the Elerium core of the Drone, it is expected that charge capacity of the Arc Thrower should be a non-issue. Compared to other Variants, A is simpler in its design then variants B and C.
- Variant B is similar to Variant A, but with the addition of two razor-sharp buzz saws, made of an alien alloy that will rapidly spin around when activated. These buzz saws would be designed to mutilate and maim enemy combatants, and the drone would be aimed towards either decapitations or severing of the arm limbs, and the buzz-saws have been placed strategically to commit this action. Medics in the field are given large cauterization devices to quickly cauterize the stumps of downed combatants in case of the buzz saws are deployed in such a manner. Buzz saws would only be used in the event that the combatant is still standing after an electrical discharge event.
- Variant C is also similar to Variant A, but the limbs of Ripper-C is given hooks and barbs, and the intent of the Ripper Drone is to leap onto a combatant and latch on, spearing into the combatant's limbs and immobilize the combatant. When it leaps onto a combatant, the limbs of the machines will attempt to pierce into the combatants arms and legs, and then push its rotors to make the limb impossible to move. Extra joint reinforcement is made to assist with the limb function removal.
Stalker Treaded Drone
1 Alien Equipment Token
The Stalker is a combat drone, designed to deploy in combat zones, where it would act as both a disposable recon element and as a way to take down alien elements non-lethally. Each Ripper is equipped with an elerium Core, a light alloy casing, and a fast but silent tread set. These Drones would take advantage of the TA System sensors, which would allow both its remote operator and soldiers on the field to view exactly what the machine sees. Minimal problems are expected with using TA sensors due to the lack of ergonomics that has to be considered in addition to the possibility of reinforced sensor bulbs in addition to the lack of a built in screen. The Stalker is equipped with an aimable Electrical discharge system colloquially known as an "Arc Thrower" (it is powered by the elerium reactor), the Stalker will be used to ambush enemy combatants and tase them into submission. It is controlled remotely by operators at the base and is augmented by available processing power, particularly in Brazil, to translate human controls into its stealthy and fluid movement. In addition, each drone is equipped with an Adaptive interface, allowing technicians with (potential) assistance from the Brazilian computer system to interface with alien equipment.
Hunter Armor (1): Chiefwaffles
Stalker (0):
Ripper-A (0):
Ripper-B (1): Blood_Librarian
Ripper-C (0):
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If you made Hunter Armor specifically full-coverage (a la medieval plate) I'd be happy to vote for it. There's no reason not to, as I've explained several times.
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EDIT: Ebbor, can we use multiple tokens of the same type in one action? Like 2 Equipment tokens.
Each token ensures a success on a subfeature. Spending 2 tokens is thus pointless. You can assign 2 tokens to 2 different subfeatures though.
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Hunter Armor (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
Stalker (0):
Ripper-A (0):
Ripper-B (1): Blood_Librarian
Ripper-C (0):
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EDIT: Ebbor, can we use multiple tokens of the same type in one action? Like 2 Equipment tokens.
Each token ensures a success on a subfeature. Spending 2 tokens is thus pointless. You can assign 2 tokens to 2 different subfeatures though.
Pretty much what I thought, thanks.
I added another equipment token to the armor to help with TAV integration. Also, Madman, I've specified that it should practically cover the entire body and I removed bits limiting it otherwise.
Hunter Armor (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
Stalker (1): Chiefwaffles
Ripper-A (0):
Ripper-B (1): Blood_Librarian
Ripper-C (0):
Also adding a vote (in addition to the one for Hunter Armor) to the Stalker. I probably prefer Hunter Armor a bit more, but I want Stalker to be considered. I'll remove one of my votes if there's a tie.
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Hunter Armor (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman
Stalker (1): Chiefwaffles
Ripper-A (0):
Ripper-B (1): Blood_Librarian
Ripper-C (0):
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Hunter Armor (4): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, TFF
Stalker (1): Chiefwaffles
Ripper-A (0):
Ripper-B (1): Blood_Librarian
Ripper-C (0):
So I joined this a while ago and promptly got swamped with reality. Hope I can actually contribute this time around.
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Hunter Armor (5): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, TFF, tonnot98
Stalker (1): Chiefwaffles
Ripper-A (0):
Ripper-B (1): Blood_Librarian
Ripper-C (0):
I personally don't see much use for a combat drone with a focus on melee capabilities. But using alloys to help with our survivability would certainly be good. Maybe instead of revising missiles, we could use our alloys to revise and improve our gauss guns again? The sectoids still don't have any armor to speak of, but with enough power, our infantry guns could be ripping holes in UFOs.
maybe we should make a giant .98 rifle that fires gyrocs
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Combat Drones would help us in two significant fashions: It acts as an element they cannot psionically assense, and they can non-lethally take down opponents. That is huge, something we have not capability for until now.
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Hunter Armor (6): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, TFF, tonnot98, Rockeater
Stalker (1): Chiefwaffles
Ripper-A (0):
Ripper-B (1): Blood_Librarian
Ripper-C (0):
We will need to defend against their missilles eventually, but this is good for now.
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Hunter Armor (7): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, Madman, TFF, tonnot98, Rockeater, Emral282
Stalker (1): Chiefwaffles
Ripper-A (0):
Ripper-B (1): Blood_Librarian
Ripper-C (0):
Looks good to me
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A revision for antimissile missiles would probably work. Our missiles aren't the most useful things anymore, after all.
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Combat Drones would help us in two significant fashions: It acts as an element they cannot psionically assense, and they can non-lethally take down opponents. That is huge, something we have not capability for until now.
My issue with your designs is less the 'combat drone' part of melee combat drone, and more the 'melee' part.
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It is a drone designed to ambush enemy elements and then take them down non-lethally. Yes, it might not be able to shoot at something from far away, but it won't need to if it is fast enough and stealthy enough to not get hit in the first place.
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No tracked drone is going to be enough of either of those to work, and while a crawler-style drone MIGHT work, it'd probably be a lot harder to make fast enough than, say, just making powered armor, which would work well in a similar role.
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If we were going to make a drone, we should just make a HWP/SHIV either with a railgun upsized into a Railcannon for shooting people through insufficient cover (IE, walls) and for blowing up whatever Sectopod type unit they eventually make, or spend an alien equipment token on making an electrolaser for ranged stunning work.
Or one that mounts a Mortar so we can give the aliens a taste of their own weapons maybe. But a melee drone? As our first drone? When we don't even have alloy armor yet, much less power armor? Why?
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An important thing to consider with drones is that the aliens still have their whole "complete knowledge of the entire battlefield" thing. Knowing the aliens, we can very safely assume that it's psionics. And if it's psionics, that means they won't be able to track non-living things. Meaning a drone would automatically be a stealth one.
So we should take advantage of that if we design a drone.
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My opinion on the Drone is that we should focus on the advantages that presents; ie. more armor, more stable firing platform and more firepower per kg. To this effect, I think we should develop something id like to call the B.O.M.B, or Best Optimized Munitions Bearer (WIP) with a 40mm grenade launcher firing either HE, AP, Incendiary or flash-bang grenades to provide close fire support to our troops and allow clearing of UFOs to be much safer. Ill write up a more specific design in a bit.
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Drones allow us to fill in roles with specifically non-bipedal rolls in mind. This means that both automated turrets attached to a moving platform and more exotic forms are both possible. (LAV, Ripper, Auto-Turret, Scout Drone, etc, etc.)
@ Madman, if a tracked drone has a wide enough track and a good enough motor, it can easily go along terrain in a manner that it could ambush enemy elements. I would personally prefer a Ripper variant drone since having legs allows for leaping in an easy enough manner. I also think that making the ripper drone allows us to segway into more complex, and larger automated or semi-automated systems. If we have enough of these drones to the point where we can deploy 6-12 of them, they can become disposable assets, able to push enemy lines that would not be feasible with a regular soldier.
Powered Armor, in my opinion, should not be for recon, and ambush rolls. Full-plate supported by heavy motors along with a battery of other features would be best for the roles our soldiers fill now, not the ones that are vacant. (Disposable Recon and ambush element.)
As for discussion on the Arc Thrower, I did specify it being a (close) ranged weapon unless there were design elements that prevented it, but w/e.
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I think to capture sectoids at the moment, we could settle for flash-bangs and rifle butts. For the rest, not so much but as a stop gap it should work.
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Design: Hunter Armor
2 Alien Equipment Tokens, 1 Alien Alloy Token
Hunter Armor is a set of personal armor taking full advantage of the nature of alien alloys. Namely, the fact that alien alloys are really light while being really strong and can somehow absorb blunt forces.
First element is, well, the alloy armor. Armor covers pretty much all of the body; though we want to preserve mobility (even with the lightness of alloy, if you put enough on a person eventually they start getting encumbered) and expense. Regardless, survivability should be up insane levels thanks to the super-miracle material that is alien alloys. We use a Alloy Token to help with the proper integration of alloy into proper personal armor here, which should hopefully free up some time and effort for other parts of Hunter armor.
A helmet incorporates an improved version of the TAV2. Namely "not prone to breakage if someone makes a mean joke about it in its proximity"-improved. The sensors are integrated into the suit and the helmet visor incorporates the HUD, which can be turned on and off at will. This should allow our operatives to always benefit from the TAV2 without suffering from its bulky and fragile nature. Some learning of how aliens make small yet effective devices from alien equipment should help a lot in fitting a TAV into the armor without bugs or increased cost.
A simple system in the back, near the spine, monitors vital signs and distributes various medicines when needed. It's not a huge deal since we don't have medkits yet are just using standard non-bleeding-edge drugs - painkillers, stimulants, anesthetics, etc. - in low quantities, but it should at least be a notable aid. Enough to keep a soldier from death for a couple hours or to keep someone fighting for a few more minutes. That kind of thing. The vital sign monitoring system is also networked with the integrated TAV, meaning the status of Hunter armor-wearing soldiers is visible to all other agents so they may react appropriately and just be better aware of injuries.
Moving past all the hybrid alien groundbreaking technology advancing human knowledge and our view of reality as we know it, we approach the most important feature:
A grappling hook.
It turns out that when your armor is sufficiently light and when you can reinforce the cable with alien alloys, you can create an extremely effective grappling hook. In order to ensure the viability of the grappling hook, we're using some alien equipment parts to more properly integrate the systems, from just getting an idea of how to properly build the grappling hook, to integrating an elerium power supply in order to ensure it has enough power to actually take advantage of the alloy-reinforced cable. The grappling hook will be mounted on the wrist. It shouldn't matter how much horizontal or vertical distance or if there's a wall to support you - if the cable can reach it, it should zip the soldier over there ((read: we're aiming for the same ability as XCOM1 and XCOM2 grappling hooks)).
Imagine. Our soldiers zipping across the sites, confusing aliens, using the integrated TAV to get the advantage on them and always be aware. Never being in one place. Their armor keeping them alive.
Normal : 3 + 1 = 4(Below Average) ( 3 tokens used)
The Hunter Armor is intended to be the next generation of XCOM armor technology, and the design team went all out in exploiting the capability of the large amounts of alien materials and equipment at their disposal. The basic armor consists of a a number of thing alien alloy plates. This provides a significant amount of protection, without turning the soldier into a completely rigid statue. Integrated in the helmet is the TAV2 system, which is now properly secured and reliable.
We've also tried to allow our soldiers some enhanced mobility by including a powered grappling. The design is quite reliable, but it does rely on a somewhat reliable infrastructure on the ground. Attach the hook to a weak balcony, and the balcony will come to you, rather you to the balcony. Nonetheless, it does allow our soldiers some significant mobility advantages in the right situation.
The last new feature is an automatic medicinal system, equipped with a series of livesign monitors and the capability to inject a variety of medicinal drugs, primarily pain killers, stimulants, and other anaesthatics.
On paper, it's a very effective suit. In practice however, the delivered project is the beta version. It's somewhat expensive, and not all features work perfectly. The medicinal system is somewhat sensitive, and the frequent useage of the injections can easily cause addictive issues. The grappling hook works, but inexpertly placed it can slam a soldier a building, or rip loose and send debris flying his way at high velocity. Lastly, the constant networking of the system makes it trivial to pinpoint various soldiers locations, if you know what you're looking for.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Talon (Interceptor) : Integrating copious amounts of Alien Technology, the Talon is grav-wave propelled, heavily armored interceptor. Has 18 hard points for missiles and 2 nose mounts, fitted with a railgun by default. Cost : 3 VP. (1 Token worth free)
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-3 Railgun Rifle : An effective and versatile rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. Capable of firing in full automatic, semi-automatic and single shots, with progressively stronger shots as fire rate decreases. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets. Best efficiency in semi-automatic mode, with automatic and single shot suffering from capacitor depletion and recoil respectively.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Rockbreaker Missile: A missile coated in a very thin alien alloy and equipped with a volatile destabilized elerium powercell as warhead. Will detonate if exposed to shock or heat. Cost : 1 EP for 8.
TAV-2: A cobbled together combat visor that can identify and highlight aliens, including disguised ones. Fragile, cobbled together and decidly unergonomic.
Cost : 1 EP
Hunter Armor : An armor consisting out of light alien armor plating with integrated TAV-2 (reliable), grappling hook and medicinal support. Can cause stimulant dependence, and accidentally slamming into grappled buildings. Cost : 2.5 EP
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America/South America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Brazil Jungle Base [A relatively isolated, partially underground base in the Brazilian Jungle]
- Alien Computing Systems
- Aircraft Maintenance and Hangar facility : +1 VP
- Equipment Production facilities : +1 EP
- Primitive alien containment
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
7 VP
3 UP
5+1 EP
1 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 VP Token, 1 Exalt Intel Token,
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
Revision Phase
Turn 8
Month end : Gain 1 free VP; UP or EP point
AABBCCDD
-
Where'd the -1 come from? And if it's Below Average, doesn't that mean it was a 4, not a 3?
-
Fixed now.
-
Ugh, that was an unfortunate roll. Revise error patching time I guess?
-
ebbor, does the hook allow our soldiers to grapple enemy combatants to us?
-
It's not designed with that purpose in mind, but there's nothing stopping your soldiers from trying.
-
I suspect that this needs a full design to fix.
-
It's not that bad. We kind of brute forced the design with excessive token usage, which is nice.
Revision: Hunter Armor Mk2
We're lucky to have the flaws that the Hunter Armor has for how well its project went. But let's get to work on fixing them.
Stimulant addiction? Just have the suit keep track of how much it's injected and don't allow going over that limit in non-life-and-death situations. A couple lines of code.
Grappling hook unreliability? Just include some tiny measuring instruments in the hook that have the Hunter suit warn the user if whatever they grappled onto isn't load-bearing.
Now we can focus on the "non-hour-worth-of-work" problem: the cost. Our team's excuse for the cost was just that it's a "beta version". Bah. Excuses.
We spend some time looking at the manufacturing process. Use molds for the plating instead of machining, reducing waste. Use alien alloy machine parts ((introduced in our Base Upgrade design)) along with some improvements in assembly line programming to reduce defective pieces. Actually inventory the armor properly, and pre-emptively shut down that "spiderman playground" thing that some enterprising engineers are secretly building in an unused room. Y'know, do stuff that makes Hunter Armor not a "beta version".
The transmissions being pinpointable isn't great, but the aliens should hopefully not immediately catch onto it and we're pretty sure they literally know exactly where we are at all times anyways so does it really matter that much yet?
So let's just let that one pass for now.
Hunter Armor Mk2 (1): Chiefwaffles
-
Hunter Armor Mk2 (2): Chiefwaffles, Happerry
[/quote]
-
Hunter Armor Mk2 (3): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, TFF
-
Hunter Armor Mk2 (4): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, TFF, Rockeater
-
Hunter Armor Mk2 (5): Chiefwaffles, Happerry, TFF, Rockeater, Emral282
-
Hunter Armor Mk2
We're lucky to have the flaws that the Hunter Armor has for how well its project went. But let's get to work on fixing them.
Stimulant addiction? Just have the suit keep track of how much it's injected and don't allow going over that limit in non-life-and-death situations. A couple lines of code.
Grappling hook unreliability? Just include some tiny measuring instruments in the hook that have the Hunter suit warn the user if whatever they grappled onto isn't load-bearing.
Now we can focus on the "non-hour-worth-of-work" problem: the cost. Our team's excuse for the cost was just that it's a "beta version". Bah. Excuses.
We spend some time looking at the manufacturing process. Use molds for the plating instead of machining, reducing waste. Use alien alloy machine parts ((introduced in our Base Upgrade design)) along with some improvements in assembly line programming to reduce defective pieces. Actually inventory the armor properly, and pre-emptively shut down that "spiderman playground" thing that some enterprising engineers are secretly building in an unused room. Y'know, do stuff that makes Hunter Armor not a "beta version".
The transmissions being pinpointable isn't great, but the aliens should hopefully not immediately catch onto it and we're pretty sure they literally know exactly where we are at all times anyways so does it really matter that much yet?
So let's just let that one pass for now.
Easy : 3 +1 +1 (Average)
The Mark 2 suit contains a number of improvements on the mark 1 version. Firstly, we included a cutoff system in the medicinal system. It's far from perfect. The system still over-medicates, until it reaches the cutoff, at which it refuses to provide any more medicine until the pilot gets themselves mostly shot up.
The grappling hook has been equipped with a reliable measuring system. It works neatly, though they mutter about the time required to get a good measurement.
The cost however, is where the big improvements have been made. We upgraded the production process, clamped down on waste, repurposed an impromptu training course, signed a movie deal, switched healthcare providers and pushed our testing code directly to production, officially pushing the product out of beta and into release.
The result. A bunch of issues that have been patched over, and a 20% discount in unit prices.
WARNING : UFO DETECTED
Craft: 2*Medium?
Location: Canada
Altitude: Medium altitude
We've spotted 2 well known craft descending towards a small town in Canada. Signature indicates that one of these is the alien's fighter craft, while the other is their large transport. We suspect this is a suspected harvesting operation.
Craft: 2 Small craft
Destination: Australia
Altitude : Boosting to orbit
Two other ships slipped by our radar. We don't know where they went or for what purpose, but they're currently fast on their way back to orbit. Getting in time will be a struggle. The ships consists out of the alien's smaller lander and their tiny fighter unit.
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Talon (Interceptor) : Integrating copious amounts of Alien Technology, the Talon is grav-wave propelled, heavily armored interceptor. Has 18 hard points for missiles and 2 nose mounts, fitted with a railgun by default. Cost : 3 VP. (1 Token worth free)
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-3 Railgun Rifle : An effective and versatile rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. Capable of firing in full automatic, semi-automatic and single shots, with progressively stronger shots as fire rate decreases. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets. Best efficiency in semi-automatic mode, with automatic and single shot suffering from capacitor depletion and recoil respectively.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Rockbreaker Missile: A missile coated in a very thin alien alloy and equipped with a volatile destabilized elerium powercell as warhead. Will detonate if exposed to shock or heat. Cost : 1 EP for 8.
TAV-2: A cobbled together combat visor that can identify and highlight aliens, including disguised ones. Fragile, cobbled together and decidly unergonomic.
Cost : 1 EP
Hunter Armor : An armor consisting out of light alien armor plating with integrated TAV-2 (reliable), grappling hook and medicinal support. Watchdog protocols usually prevent stimulant dependence and accidentally slamming into grappled buildings. Cost : 2 EP
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America/South America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Brazil Jungle Base [A relatively isolated, partially underground base in the Brazilian Jungle]
- Alien Computing Systems
- Aircraft Maintenance and Hangar facility : +1 VP
- Equipment Production facilities : +1 EP
- Primitive alien containment
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
7 VP
3 UP
5+1 EP
1 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 VP Token, 1 Exalt Intel Token,
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
InterceptionPhase
Turn 8
AABBCCDD
-
So, given our need for tokens to do more cool stuff, and how the second boogies are already escaping back to orbit, I think what we should do is drop hitting the second (no matter how much it pains me to let them go without a fight), and hit the group that's still descending with with everything we have to make sure we win that fight.
Also we should probably make another base next turn to get enough EP so we can give a squad armor and still have enough left over to get everyone else TAV-2.
Assigned to Bogey 30-31
Mission : Combined Arms
-2 VP : Talon Fighter (first one costs 2)
-3 VP : Talon Fighter
-2 VP : 2x Skyrangers
-0 VP : 1 Skyranger (the free one)
Total VP Spent : 7
-3 UP : 3x NOTSOFTER Teams
Total UP Spent : 3
-3 EP : 3x XH-3 Railgun Rifle
-2 EP : Hunter Armor
-1 EP : TAV-2
Total EP Spent : 6
Plan Big Hammer (1): Happerry
-
Plan Big Hammer (2): Happerry, Blood_Librarian
No reason I guess.
-
Plan Big Hammer (3): Happerry, Blood_Librarian, Emral282
It lives!
-
Craft: 2*Medium?
Location: Canada
Altitude: Medium altitude
Explosions thunder through the sky, and debris rains down upon the small Canadian town. One alien ship, covered in flames, plunges into an apartment complex. The ensuing collapses buries it beneath the debris. The other alien ships sees most of it's outer hull torn apart, before a railgun shot hits it deadcenter. Spinning out of control, it crashes through several houses before skidding through the local park.
In the air, our forces are victorious, but it's costly victory. The aliens launched a total of 8 missiles, and thought the Talon's managed to dodge and weave past the initial wave, the projectiles are relentless. Each Talon is hit thrice, taking more than enough damage to bring down even the hardened craft. The remaining missiles destroyed 2 of the remaining Skyrangers, with severe casualties for the two squads. The last remaining squad deployed on a low building overseeing the alien crash site.
With the high ground secured, our team started effectively eliminating the wounded alien survivors. Sectoids and Mimics spread among the debris were eliminated with relative ease, but a new alien proved considerably more durable. Ignoring their wounds, these 2 meter tall humanods rapidly took cover between the remains of their shattered craft and returned fire.
Our squad attempted to withdraw and regroup with the rest of the team (whose survivors were being brought to the front by Skyranger) but the new contacts proved to faster and more effective with their weaponry. Withering plasma fire from guns and rifles eliminated our squad before reinforcements could arrive.
The new Hunter armor showed it's worth almost immediately. The armor plating rendered the enemy pistols mostly, and greatly reduced the effect of their more powerfull rifles. Relocating quickly, our squad managed to stay out of reach of the new enemies untill we had finally brought them down.
Tactical conclusions: Alien missile weaponry has lost agility, but has gained increased ammunition
Loss of vehicle resulted in significant loss of personal
The new enemy alien is though and fearsome. Standing 2 meter tall, bulging with muscles and with what appears to be subdermal armor plating, they can whistand most infantry weapon short of a handheld railgun.
Mission accomplished
Loot : Alien Alloys, Alien Equipment (Reward reduced : Raging fires, crashes and looting appear to have lead to a loss of equipment, as XCOM was unable to properly secure due to severe losses)
Craft: 2 Small craft
Destination: Australia
Altitude : Boosting to orbit
We let these go. We don't know what they came for, or why, as there are no wounded or reports of alien attacks. Computer analysis of the austalian datasphere suggests a slightly lower than expected amount of anti-alien sentiment than normally seen after alien attacks.
Mission lost
Vehicles
Raven (Interceptor) : Way beyond the bleeding edge of technology, the Raven is far beyond any other jet fighter ever build on Earth. With upgraded avionics, adjusted tracking, and advanced pulse detonation engines, the Raven is capable of pursuing even high speed alien craft. If needed, it can use it's avalanche missiles to shoot down any intruders. Cost : 2 VP
- Rockslide Missiles : An upgraded targeting system, that increases missile effectiveness.
- Ground Combat Package : Replaces half of the Raven's Avalanche missiles with high tech air-to-ground SMART missiles
Talon (Interceptor) : Integrating copious amounts of Alien Technology, the Talon is grav-wave propelled, heavily armored interceptor. Has 18 hard points for missiles and 2 nose mounts, fitted with a railgun by default. Cost : 3 VP. (1 Token worth free)
Skyranger (Troop Transport) : World's first supersonic troop transport. The Skyranger is high speed, heavily armored troop transport, capable of deploying and retrieving a single squad of soldiers in various situations. Cost : 1 VP [1 Free Skyranger available]
Equipment
Basic XCOM Rifle : XCOM's standard rifle. Cutting edge, custom designed, yet still affordable. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
XH-3 Railgun Rifle : An effective and versatile rifle. Fires a powerful railgun round with tremendous velocity and penetrative power. Capable of firing in full automatic, semi-automatic and single shots, with progressively stronger shots as fire rate decreases. In addition, it's equipped with a smart SCOPE to allow it to identify enemy drone targets. Best efficiency in semi-automatic mode, with automatic and single shot suffering from capacitor depletion and recoil respectively.
Cost : 1
Basic XCOM Grenade : A simple grenade. Activate, throw, explode. Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
BASIC XCOM PISTOL : A simple, highpower pistol. It packs a pretty heavy punch, making it an effective if chalkenging sidearm Part of standard equipment.
Cost : 0
Phoenix railgun pod : A modular gun pod containing a light railgun. Relatively low firerate, but decent armor penetrating capability. Can be attached to Skyrangers and Ravens, though the latter looses 4 of it's missiles to make room. Cost: 1 EP for 3
Rockbreaker Missile: A missile coated in a very thin alien alloy and equipped with a volatile destabilized elerium powercell as warhead. Will detonate if exposed to shock or heat. Cost : 1 EP for 8.
TAV-2: A cobbled together combat visor that can identify and highlight aliens, including disguised ones. Fragile, cobbled together and decidly unergonomic.
Cost : 1 EP
Hunter Armor : An armor consisting out of light alien armor plating with integrated TAV-2 (reliable), grappling hook and medicinal support. Watchdog protocols usually prevent stimulant dependence and accidentally slamming into grappled buildings. Cost : 2 EP
Training Program
Rookie Training Program : A basic introduction to the entire Xcom project. The absolute minimum that any soldier needs to know to operate successfully at XCOM. Cost : 1 Unit Points.
NOTSOFTER training regimen : A hard, effective international training regime, that gives our soldiers the tools and capacity to deal with aliens. Trains forces to a standard marginally higher than that attained by most special force units Cost : 1 Unit Points.
Inter Agency Cooperation teams : As part of ties developed through the NOTSOFTER training regime, we now have the capability of drawing upon special force teams. They're not as well suited to fight aliens as we're however, and nations will object if we keep losing them. Cost 1 Unit Point [SPECIAL : Can't use XCOM GEAR, No vehicle needed for deployment when used in North America/South America or Europe]
Mission Profiles
Interception : A simple mission profile that focuses on intercepting an alien vessel as soon as it's detected, destroying it before it can do any damage to any innocent people.
Down and Capture : A more complicated mission profile that focuses on downing an alien vessel (or waiting for it to land), and then storming it with ground forces.
Combined Arms : A mission profile that integrates air and ground forces to storm UFO's, using aerial bombing, reconnaissance and strafing runs when available to take out enemy strongpoints or UFO armor.
XCOM Resources
Island Mountain HQ [An isolated, hidden underground base on a remote island in the Aegean]
- UFO Power Core
- Railgun Defenses
- Heuristic radar
- Improved production
Brazil Jungle Base [A relatively isolated, partially underground base in the Brazilian Jungle]
- Alien Computing Systems
- Aircraft Maintenance and Hangar facility : +1 VP
- Equipment Production facilities : +1 EP
- Primitive alien containment
Aereal reconnaissance program : A simple program that allows us to requisition drone reconnaissance on suspected UFO sites.
7 VP
3 UP
5+1 EP
1 Alien Equipment Token, 1 Unit experience Token, 1 VP Token, 1 Exalt Intel Token,
Africa
---> Egypt
---> South Africa
---> Nigeria
Asia
--->Australia
--->China
--->India
--->Japan
Europe
--->France
--->Germany
--->Russia
--->United Kingdom
North America
--->Canada
--->Mexico
--->United States
South America
--->Argentina
--->Brazil X
InterceptionPhase
Turn 8
AABBCCDD
[/quote]
-
So think we should try to design a point defense system against their missiles, or a new base so we have more points to spend on armor and troops? Personally I think we should go for the point defense system, those missiles were nasty.
-
Nono, let’s please not do a counter war. The goddamn ICAR Cannalan missile situation is already enough.
Improve Talon agility soon. Use our computer experience to do predictive dodging. Or something.
They have Mutons now, and are doing infiltration missions. We should really consider that.
-
My issue with better dodging is that from my read of the battle report, we did in fact dodge the missiles, and then they flipped around and just kept homing in on us until they hit anyway. And those missiles are being brutal to our aircraft, so we do need to do something about them. And it's not like 'better dodging' isn't a counter race of it's own given the natural response to that would be 'better engine missiles'. But yes, counter races are icky. I just don't really see a better option right now, because as is we hit them with everything we had and we barely won, and letting them get away with stuff because we have to concentrate everything to draw even with one of their missions is not a way to seek victory.
On the other hand, yah, inflitration missions are also something we have to be aware of, and maybe designing an intel sweep mission or something wouldn't be bad?
I'm not to worried about mutons, as they're still vulnerable to our current gun of choice, the handheld railguns. The plasma rifles they're toting are probably a bigger game changer, and that's why I'd want more points so we can give more then one team armor at once.
-
Maybe we should just do a full-blown hover-capable aircraft that carries a single anti-aircraft railgun into the combat zone, and downs UFOs from outside missile range.
-
My issue with better dodging is that from my read of the battle report, we did in fact dodge the missiles, and then they flipped around and just kept homing in on us until they hit anyway. And those missiles are being brutal to our aircraft, so we do need to do something about them
Yup, this happened. One important thing to note is that it means that a small amount of time before they managed to shoot you.
-
What would hte posibility of boarding a ship in orbit and then riding it back down be? Because these aliens are being chicken shit and I want to kick their asses faster.
-
Magnetic Anti-Missile System
The Magnetic Anti-Missile System is, in short, a medium machinegun caliber railgun turret designed to be mounted on either a Skyranger or one of the air to air interceptor designs X-Com maintains, whereupon it will automatically target any missile (or Floater like flying alien) deployed by a UFO and shoot it down before it impacts a friendly air vehicle. It successfully detects and targets said enemy projectiles with an advanced miniaturized sensor and computer system developed from reverse engineering alien machinery.
Magnetic Anti-Missile System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (1) Happerry
-
It should probably be made to be ~5mm, to maximize ammo carrying capacity and firing rate, and minimize power draw. A small railgun projectile packs quite a large punch, after all.
-
Hot-Blind Systems
Standard Chaff systems deployed by Vanila military oprations consist of piezoelectrically ignited Aluminum-Magnesium compounds ejected from the aircraft by pressurized "cannons", with the addition of sticks of thermal flares pushed out to hinder both Thermal and Radar tracking systems. It is obvious that the aliens are using a dozen different methods of tracking our aircraft in addition to Thermal and Radar, as well as unclaimed reports of telepathy.
Hot-blind Systems are designed to use surplus alien alloys and nuclear waste, in an effort to be incorporated to all lines of ships without cost.
These chaff systems are virtually identical to Pre-War systems except for their payload; The compounds are replaced with an Americium 241-Alien Alloy-Osmium Mixture, essentially a fine dust of large density designed to confuse every electronic tracking system known to mankind. Visually, a large cloud of fine, yellow hot particles are ejected from the craft along with flares when the system goes off, temporarily created a signature that dwarfs the craft that created it, as well as creating false signatures as the cloud disperses.
Magnetic Anti-Missile System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (1) Happerry
Hot-Blind System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (1) Blood_Librarian
-
[
Magnetic Anti-Missile System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (1) Happerry
Hot-Blind System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (2) Blood_Librarian, Rockeater
-
Why not just make our missiles better rather than wasting a design on a direct counter?
We have the Rockbreaker lying around, begging for a redesign.
If we improve the range, fix its issues, and do some other tweaks — which should be easy for a design — it could do great.
I’ll write up a design for it later today, when I have access to something I can actually type on.
-
Because we can already kill them faster then they can kill us, we did that this time where they died before their missiles did anything, and then said missiles chased down our planes anyway and blew the crap out of our aircraft. Unless we can kill them so fast they have no time at all to shoot their missiles off, which isn't going to happen anytime soon, we need to counter their missiles either through jamming them, shooting them down, or becoming tough enough to take being shot with alien missiles. Better firepower isn't going to change that. Between our Railguns and our already upgraded missiles I'm pretty sure we have better firepower right now already, in fact.
-
It’s just silly to waste an entire design just to directly counter their one thing and nothing else. They’ll be able to revise their missiles to make our design useless, putting us at a huge loss in terms of action economy.
-
Really? I've yet to find a way to become completely immune to 'being shot down', which is what they'd have to do to make point defense useless. Even if we can only degrade their missiles by 50% after they make tougher missiles or such that'd still probably be a win for us as we're currently winning each shooty exchange, so getting a second one instead of shooting the shit out of them and then having their missiles render us non-combat ready would be a solid gain for our side. And each round we win gets us more tokens, which are what we need to make the cool stuff, so even if we do get only one or two good turns from it I'd still consider it a win because that'd give us more stuff to bootstrap up with.
If you want to write up a better thing to do this turn then point defense (or the jammer system, which I'm greatly leary of as we don't even know what they use for tracking right now), I could be argued into voting for it, but the one thing we don't need right now is better anti-UFO firepower. We already have enough firepower, what we don't have is survivability.
I'd also like to get the point defense gun so we can take it and make a Railgun Heavy Weapon Platform design from it sometime.
-
Magnetic Anti-Missile System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (2) Happerry, Emral282
Hot-Blind System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (2) Blood_Librarian, Rockeater
I think that we need better not-getting-shot-downness than better missiles.
Also, any ideas on what the UFO we didn't shoot down was doing? Something weird is going on there considering that panic didn't raise.
-
If part of a new missile design works to mimic whatever signature they're sensing then it might be able to throw their weapons off course, or back into them.
We are already lagging behind in our ability to engage the enemy. Designs at this point should be focused on bringing something new to the table or having multiple purposes. It's hard to tell how badly we're losing since there's no real territory to claim. I know we have our panic meter, but how many missions have they successfully accomplished that didn't impact that? A simple counter at this point won't do it, especially if how it works is visible and therefore fairly obvious and easier to figure out how to counter.
Ninjad but most of the statement stands.
-
Yeah. We need a design that actually progresses our standing or else we’ll be stuck on the mud while the aliens actually advance their tech.
-
Would you be okay with the design also producing a shotgun as well? It's completely possible to send have the same concepts of both to be put down.
I'm not gonna change my vote to anything until a design is placed down that would prevent them from shooting our ships down at every turn and does the same thing that our Hot-Blind Systems while meeting your criteria.
Good luck.
-
I got another eight hours at work to think on a good design. I have an idea, but it probably won't go up until like 3am eastern.
-
Similar here. I’ll be able to write a design much later today though.
-
Design: Gravity Pulse Drive (Alien Equipment Token)
In the original design documents for the Talon, we had used the aliens' gravity wave drive to, well, we used it in the Talon with some rather crude modifications. It's great when combined with the general effectiveness of the Talon and the fact that it's not a "jack of all trades" like alien craft. But we had intended to do something else: the Gravity Pulse Drive.
Now, we may not have an alien engine to dissect, but it's not like humans aren't capable of invention and improvement on their own. Besides, we shouldn't be dissecting another alien engine. The point of the Gravity Pulse Drive is to use our experience with the Talon -- repairing and maintaining it, reports rom our pilots, and general observations from its performance in the field -- to make a more refined, human drive; one that works with the Talon rather than something we ripped off an alien ship and welded onto a Talon. Though we do use some alien equipment pieces to better work towards "human-ifying" the jury-rigged alien aspect.
((For an obscure reference regarding those of you who've watched the show Stargate SG-1, think about the humans' attempts to reverse-engineer alien craft. Their first attempt is basically an alien craft with some human stuff glued on -- the current Talon's drive -- which is nice but not great and has other bad side effects. The second attempt is a much more "human" fighter, that's more like a human design using knowledge of the principles employed in the alien craft, rather than an alien design adapted to be used byhumans.))
Currently the Talon's GWD is pretty straightforward. It generates a gravitational field to make the craft move. And in the Talon's specific case, the drive is """optimized""" for forward motion, using standard wings to take advantage of the earth's atmosphere rather than try to bluntly fight it like the aliens' saucers.
The Gravity Pulse Drive works off of its namesake: pulses. By configuring the GWD and the way it buffers power, we make it work off of thousands of rapid gravity pulses instead of a constant field. Basically pushing the craft in one direction, vaguely like a standard reaction drive. Though these pulses can be in any direction, as they don't need a thruster or nozzle or whatever to be directed. The direction of each pulse can be instantly changed, allowing for extremely quick agility and general manueverability.
But most of the improvements is in making a human drive and implementing it in the Talon based on our experience with it, rather than just throwing an alien drive onto it and calling it a day.
Overall, we expect much better agility and slightly better speed. The agility should allow Talons to be nimble enough to repeatedly dodge alien missiles (and any other projectiles), and perform generally better in dogfighting. If possible, we implement this drive in the Skyranger (as well as the Talon, which is the obvious default). We hope to in the near future make some further adjustments to allow using the pulses as a defensive measure, "deflecting" projectiles (but this is in the future, not now, even as a stretch goal).
TL;DR: The Talon currently works off of a propulsion system we ripped off an alien ship and glued onto the Talon. Let's make a drive using our experience "making" the Talon's current drive, and the field experience we've had with the Talon. Basically a human drive using alien concepts rather than an alien drive fitted onto a human thing; not completely since we probably don't understand gravity manipulation enough for a 100% human, but at least enough to make a drive that's more than 1% human.
This should make Talons much more agile, and a bit faster, allowing them to dodge alien missiles until the missiles lose tracking/detonate/give up/are outran/run out of fuel/whatever. Also put onto the Skyranger if possible.
Magnetic Anti-Missile System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (2) Happerry, Emral282
Hot-Blind System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (2) Blood_Librarian, Rockeater
Gravity Pulse Drive [Alien Equipment] (1): Chiefwaffles
Also, any ideas on what the UFO we didn't shoot down was doing? Something weird is going on there considering that panic didn't raise.
Only possible answer is alien infiltration. The aliens are somehow infiltrating the governments and populace in the area.
If they keep on doing this we can expect less help from the government and a possible withdrawal of the government from the XCOM project altogether. Something we do not want to happen. I got a few ideas for revisions to counteract this.
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Design: "Starling" Drone Network (Alien Equipment Token)
With a desire for innovation, our engineers have looked to alien technology for inspiration yet again. The alien drones, while effective at their task, are designed for Alien operations, not XCOM's. As such, a design has been put forward to construct a drone that fills our needs. Each "Starling" Drone is a disc approximately two feet in diameter with a fairly short profile and a modestly sized 5mm railgun mounted on the belly. The drones are programmed to automatically fire upon objects sharing the heat and/or EM signature of Alien missiles while attached to aircraft hardpoints. While connected the Starlings draw power from the aircraft to supplement it's own power supply and increase rate of fire of the rail gun.
When released, the drones fly spaced out ahead of the mother aircraft and begin overcharging their power core. If an Alien missile gets past the 5mm fire and passes close enough to a drone it unleashes an electromagnetic burst powerful enough to knock itself and, hopefully, the alien missile's equipment out.
A single Starling can also be used by infantry, using a small backpack computer and a joystick to control the drone directly. The computer needs to be laid down and opened up for the pilot to use the monitor to see through the drone's camera, though a TAV-2 bypasses this requirement by hooking up directly to the pack. The Starling can be overloaded by the controller to fry electronics much like it does in the air. The drone and backpack are unwieldy, so all but the hardiest will forgo most of their standard equipment.
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The use of the token isn't so much for the drone itself: humans have made plenty of drones before. It's more for the signatures alien missiles emit. It's an ambitious design, sure, but it should be well within the realm of possibility. It'll begin our march into combat AI, hopefully help counter enemy missiles, and can be used everywhere. It utilizes a few different suggestions and ideas various people have had throughout the thread as well, so hopefully it pleases some of you.
Magnetic Anti-Missile System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (2) Happerry, Emral282
Hot-Blind System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (2) Blood_Librarian, Rockeater
Gravity Pulse Drive [Alien Equipment] (1): Chiefwaffles
"Starling" Drone Network [Use Alien Equipment Token] (1): MoP
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Magnetic Anti-Missile System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (3) Happerry, Emral282, Cnidaros
Hot-Blind System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (2) Blood_Librarian, Rockeater
Gravity Pulse Drive [Alien Equipment] (1): Chiefwaffles
"Starling" Drone Network [Use Alien Equipment Token] (1): MoP
Although we should really go for another base design next turn for more EP. Oh, and revise something to capture the aliens because we don't have that yet.
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We can't afford to spend an entire design on countering one alien action. They'll be able to nullify -- completely or mostly -- the design with a revision, greatly hurting us in the most important Arms Race metric: action economy.
We'll be trading our design for their revision. That's not a good trade. We can't just let ourselves stick still while we counter one alien design while they're designing new things to beat us at air and ground. We can't win by just reacting to alien designs we see as powerful; we have to counter them by introducing our own more powerful things.
The Gravity Pulse Drive allows our craft to consistently doge alien projectiles, and gives them a general improvement in all of dogfighting and more, as well as progressing our understanding of alien propulsion techniques. It works against the alien missiles without being a narrowminded counter that sacrifices other progression.
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The Choice is obvious.
Magnetic Anti-Missile System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (3) Happerry, Emral282, Cnidaros
Hot-Blind System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (1), Rockeater
Gravity Pulse Drive [Alien Equipment] (2): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian
"Starling" Drone Network [Use Alien Equipment Token] (1): MoP
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The engine is a good idea - won't mind if that goes through. I'd just prefer trying to branch out our tech tree as much as we can, build wide, as it were. Even on a low roll we should at least get experience with AI, which is a real solid counter to psionics.
I also think a psilab should be a priority once we have the tokens to throw at it.
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We can't afford to spend an entire design on countering one alien action. They'll be able to nullify -- completely or mostly -- the design with a revision, greatly hurting us in the most important Arms Race metric: action economy.
We'll be trading our design for their revision. That's not a good trade. We can't just let ourselves stick still while we counter one alien design while they're designing new things to beat us at air and ground. We can't win by just reacting to alien designs we see as powerful; we have to counter them by introducing our own more powerful things.
The Gravity Pulse Drive allows our craft to consistently doge alien projectiles, and gives them a general improvement in all of dogfighting and more, as well as progressing our understanding of alien propulsion techniques. It works against the alien missiles without being a narrowminded counter that sacrifices other progression.
We can already dodge the enemy missiles. It doesn't help. As for it being a narrowminded counter, I've already spoken on how I want to reuse it as a HWP weapon, it advances our railgun tech which is our primary weapon tech, it advances our computer and sensor tech by making new systems that can accurately detect, target, and hit alien missiles, and unlike 'dodging' it isn't something which our skyrangers have to stop doing when they slow down to deploy our troops.
I also call fowl on describing the alien missiles as 'just a revision'. The alien missiles have been showing up for several turns now, and they've been getting more effective as time goes by. I'd be highly surprised if they weren't the result of several actions, designs and revisions, but they certainly aren't just a revision, and at minimum I'd expect them to be a design and a revision, and that's only if the other side consistently rolled high on them without getting any flaws. And that basically never happens.
I really don't see what you expect the better drives to actually do, because our main interception issue has been detection, not interception, and we can already dodge the enemy missiles long enough to blow the hell out of enemy UFOs, so we don't need to extend our dodge time in battle. And they aren't going to keep our Skyrangers from being blown the shit out of, which is the biggest issue with the missiles right now, because last fight we won in the air and then got blown up before it could turn into a ground fight, and better engines aren't going to magically let transports dodge enemy missiles as they slow down to landing speed.
And, hell, if we want to talk about narrow designs and opening up stuff for the future, what the hell does better drives give us anyway? We aren't ready for another generation of fighters, we just got our current one and can barely afford enough of them anyway, it won't help in ground fights, it doesn't unlock anything new, it doesn't lead to unlocking anything new in the next action, and it doesn't even help with our biggest current issue. If we want better gravity engines it should be rolled into a Gravity Ranger design, so we can have an alien alloy transport that's more resistant to being shot down, not some upgrade pack for a counter that we're already succeeding at in combat.
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...what?
1.) I did not say the alien missiles were "just a revision." I said that they can just revise them again to undo most, if not all, of our designed counter.
2.) We can dodge the enemy missiles once. The problem is that we can't dodge them again, as the Talons' agility just aren't there yet. "Yet" being the keyword, and GPD aims to fix that.
3.) I explicitly say what I expect the better drives to do multiple times in our revision.
4.) A benefit from the GPD, which is apparent from reading the design proposal, is that it allows 360 degree maneuverability and fast acceleration. The Skyrangers have a problem with dodging with their current engines. Not forever. If we get the GPD on Skyrangers, then they can just delay landing until the projectiles are gone, or land when the missiles are chasing Talons and dodge afterwards. If missiles hitting our Skyrangers is something we have to worry about in the same way we did last interception, then we don't have to worry about waiting. The aliens won't have any intact ships. A couple more minutes spend in a holding-dodging pattern won't allow them to suddenly disappear.
5.) What does GPD do for us in the future?
A.) It upgrades the maneuverability of all our craft, vastly improving the Skyranger and futureproofing our ships against future alien craft in addition to working against their missiles.
B.) It advances our knowledge of gravity propulsion, allowing for future designs such as personal infantry grav-based propulsion systems.
C.) It makes future aircraft designs easier, as they won't have to worry at all about propulsion.
6.) Agility is not a "counter we're already succeeding at in combat." First, seeing everything as counters is just the wrong way to see things in arms races. Second, it'd only be successful if we had enough agility to keep our aircraft from being shot down. We don't.
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How about this, though, as a second option? Almost directly counters alien missiles, but also reduces the chance that they can be fired in the first place and just improves our destructive capabilities. Reminder that our missiles are currently useless due to the alien plasma shielding.
Design: Earthshatter Missiles (Alien Equipment Token)
The Rockbreaker is an interesting design. An offshoot of our more successful Rockslide missiles, it makes a poor attempt to use alien explosives and whatnot for a more effective missile. It's not great for current use, but it's a good platform to start off of.
The Earthshatter missile is fairly straightforward. It uses a small gravitational drive to move, allowing for extreme agility and speed in the air relative to our older missiles (though it still keeps the aerodynamic shape, as most of its motion will be forward and variations of forward). Taking some tips from alien equipment, we've overhauled the power source employed in Rockbreakers to allow for it to remain fairly stable until detonation, and use it to power the propulsion to save space and weight that would be normally spent on fuel.
A thin alien alloy coating remains in the design from the Rockbreaker, protecting it from countermeasures that would normally destroy a regular missile. However, we've adjusted the coating for a very destructive fragmenting shatter pattern, allowing missiles to inflict damage through both high-speed alien alloy fragments and the Elerium power core blast.
The missile uses a slightly-upgraded version of the Rockslide algorithms, taking some knowledge of what we've learned in it in ventures such as the Brazil computer core. This should just allow for some slightly better targeting from afar, but most importantly, it includes an ability to detect lethal alien missiles and prematurely detonate the missile, using the fragmenting blast to also detonate the alien missile before it reaches allied aircraft.
The Earthshatter should do more damage, be more accurate, be much faster (hopefully allowing in elimination of some alien craft before they fire their missiles), and should increase survivability of our own craft. And it won't blow up prematurely, which is nice.
All of this is accomplished through fairly iterative improvements. Adjusting the coating for fragmenting effect, spending a bit of time re-stabilizing the core to appropriate levels, adding a smaller grav drive (of the same type used in the Talon, roughly), and doing a small upgrade to the electronics based on stuff we've already done with Rockslide computing.
Also.
Here's a revision for later, to deal with infiltration:
Revision: Computer Core Discriminatory Analysis
A revision to the computer core in Brazil, this isn't quite as bad as the name may imply.
Simply put, right now the computer scans for broad patterns on a global scale. It's really useful, but it could be more useful. By giving the computer the capabilities and permissions to temporarily decrease the scope of a scan when deemed necessary, the computer should be able to analyze smaller patterns indicative of suspicious activity that we wouldn't normally recognize.
We hope to use this new feature to locate any aforementioned "suspicious activity" in countries indicative of alien sympathizers or infiltrators. A politician with very strange meetings coinciding with alien visits or alien activity is a more obvious example of what the computer may pick up, and knowledge of this should allow us to pre-emptively deal with alien sympathizers/infiltrators before they strike, and have more intel of alien-compromised entities if we want to act on it further.
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While waffles summed it up nicely, I would just like to expand a little on the fact that it's an engine design we can build off of. It'll also probably allow interceptors to pursue further and faster. While it'll let us evade more effectively more than once, it could also deal with that pesky problem of most of our enemy ships getting away without contest.
I'd still prefer the utility of the drones at this moment though
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MoP, you should probably vote for the engines then. You can change your vote if you manage to get more support for the drones, but right now without any changes the easily-nullifiable direct counter design will win.
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Magnetic Anti-Missile System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (3) Happerry, Emral282, Cnidaros
Hot-Blind System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (1), Rockeater
Gravity Pulse Drive [Alien Equipment] (3): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, MoP
"Starling" Drone Network [Use Alien Equipment Token] (0):
Good call. I was hoping to see more activity but I failed to realize there were already 7 votes. I'll propose the "Starling" again if it becomes appropriate.
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Magnetic Anti-Missile System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (3) Happerry, Emral282, Cnidaros
Hot-Blind System [Use an Alien Equipment Token] : (0)
Gravity Pulse Drive [Alien Equipment] (4): Chiefwaffles, Blood_Librarian, MoP, Rockeater
"Starling" Drone Network [Use Alien Equipment Token] (0):
Missed the mentioning of the Skyrangers in the GPD