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Dwarf Fortress => DF Adventure Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Kars on February 14, 2018, 07:20:16 am

Title: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Kars on February 14, 2018, 07:20:16 am
Now, maybe it's just me, but the "force twists the [blank]" addition to the combat system has made it ridiculously easy. Especially the nervous tissue aspect of it. I've never heard of anyone becoming a cripple due to being bonked on the noggin so hard it ripped their spine apart. Brain damage, sure. Knocked out, of course. But... Never seen the nervous tissue get "torn apart" due to blunt force trauma to the head. Also never heard of someone getting hit so hard on the arm that it ripped up their tendon either, tendons are remarkably flexible, usually damage would come from your arm being twisted in a joint lock (which is already in the game).
I could believe that this would happen if, say, a Forgotten Beast hit you on the arm, or the head. Or if it was a Superracially strong vampire with a maul. Something like that. But just a normal bandit? Idk. The tendons and nervous tissue really need to be strengthened if this system is going to stick around, because all I have to do is run around with a warhammer and a shield with dodge and I'm immortal. Smack someone on the head once and their spine rips up and they flop around on the ground til they suffocate. This happens even through steel helmets! I do like this system when fighting Megabeasts and other similarly big creatures, because its fairly believable that being hit even once would basically mean you're dead or so badly mangled that death is one step away, regardless of your armor. But it needs balance against more human-sized creatures in my opinion.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: KittyTac on February 14, 2018, 07:25:28 am
Game balance does not really matter to Toady. He never did balance in the game's history. We have higher priority issues right now anyway, and a procedural magic system to work on.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Fruitsbrain Weapon-tosser on February 14, 2018, 08:18:19 am
Quote from: KittyTac on February 14, 2018, 07:25:28 am
Game balance does not really matter to Toady. He never did balance in the game's history. We have higher priority issues right now anyway, and a procedural magic system to work on.
The pain values for broken bones used to be much higher several versions ago, to the point that even a Dragon or a Roc would instantly go unconscious from the pain of a broken toe. Hopefully joints and nervous tissue will be made more durable than gelatin in a future version.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: KittyTac on February 14, 2018, 08:22:35 am
The pain from bones was actually unrealistic. Nervous tissue is really flimsy.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 14, 2018, 10:58:44 am
Quote from: Kars on February 14, 2018, 07:20:16 am
[...]with a warhammer[...]Smack someone on the head once and their spine rips up[...]even through steel helmets!
That's, uh, fairly reasonable, actually. Have you ever been hit on the head with a warhammer? Spoiler: It will kill you. A helmet does nothing to change the fact of the momentum being transferred through your skull to your neck tissue, which is why so many experts think bicycle helmets are pointless, for example.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Cathar on February 14, 2018, 11:43:50 am
To be fair warhammers are the standard anti-armor weapon. So...they inflict damage through armor. This is normal.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Madman198237 on February 14, 2018, 11:44:02 am
Quote from: Maximum Spin on February 14, 2018, 10:58:44 am
Quote from: Kars on February 14, 2018, 07:20:16 am
[...]with a warhammer[...]Smack someone on the head once and their spine rips up[...]even through steel helmets!
That's, uh, fairly reasonable, actually. Have you ever been hit on the head with a warhammer? Spoiler: It will kill you. A helmet does nothing to change the fact of the momentum being transferred through your skull to your neck tissue, which is why so many experts think bicycle helmets are pointless, for example.

If the helmet is properly padded it'll help a bit...but you're still going down if it's a solid hit from a strong (strong for a human) enemy. You won't have a crushed skull if you're wearing a good (i.e., STEEL) helmet, but you will probably not be standing back up for the rest of the day. Depending on where you're hit, of course, it might actually twist your neck far enough to snap it, but that'd take quite the hit to do.

It's not necessarily a one-hit kill (otherwise every late-medieval/Renaissance-period knight in full plate would've carried around a war hammer instead of a halberd or a name-your-medieval-pole-mounted-Swiss-Army-Knife-weapon), but if you let somebody get a solid hit in on you, you're going to feel it.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Dyret on February 14, 2018, 07:07:59 pm
I'm not sure being slapped around by a slab of metal on a lever being bad for your spine is the game's worst sin on the realism front.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: LukeRM on February 22, 2018, 12:34:24 am
While a solid strike to the helm will definitely not be pleasant at best, they wouldn't have worn them if they didn't save your life almost all the time. If you had to wear only one piece of armor, it would be a helmet, and likely followed by gauntlets and then a cuirass, and so on. I do agree that necks transmit too much force right now, but it's certainly more believable than smashing fingers to down people, or throwing fluffy wamblers to kill colossi, etc.

The bike helmet argument, if I recall, comes less from the helmets themselves (I would never forgo one myself) and more from other drivers becoming less wary of you because you're protected.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Madman198237 on February 22, 2018, 09:46:48 am
Quote from: LukeRM on February 22, 2018, 12:34:24 am
While a solid strike to the helm will definitely not be pleasant at best, they wouldn't have worn them if they didn't save your life almost all the time. If you had to wear only one piece of armor, it would be a helmet, and likely followed by gauntlets and then a cuirass, and so on. I do agree that necks transmit too much force right now, but it's certainly more believable than smashing fingers to down people, or throwing fluffy wamblers to kill colossi, etc.

The bike helmet argument, if I recall, comes less from the helmets themselves (I would never forgo one myself) and more from other drivers becoming less wary of you because you're protected.

No, thank you. You wear the helmet SECOND, after the gambeson (most basic piece of armor, covers the chest). Then you wear a mail shirt, then the helm/helmet, then grieves, and then gauntlets. Your hands are much less like to get hit than your head, which is less likely to get hit than your chest. Legs before hands because if your hand gets hit you can STILL RUN AWAY.

There's a whole list of armor pieces that could go in here, but to simplify: Protect the chest, then the head, then the shins, then worry about everything else (oh, and have a shield before ANYTHING else, and keep the shield until you're wearing full plate).
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Rumrusher on February 22, 2018, 12:23:20 pm
in a weird mess of force bending I saw a forgotten beast slap a giant fat elephant with a cloak in the head and for the longest time the force twist seems to not take in effect. I guess here is that Super_being strength multiplies the attack force to the point of every hit feels like getting smacked by a car going 20 mph.
so the only few things that could resist that would be elephants of a giant scale.

but then you end up with a game modded so everyone is giants
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 01, 2018, 08:32:53 pm
Quote from: Rumrusher on February 22, 2018, 12:23:20 pm
in a weird mess of force bending I saw a forgotten beast slap a giant fat elephant with a cloak in the head and for the longest time the force twist seems to not take in effect. I guess here is that Super_being strength multiplies the attack force to the point of every hit feels like getting smacked by a car going 20 mph.
so the only few things that could resist that would be elephants of a giant scale.

but then you end up with a game modded so everyone is giants

The problem there is that the game treats all items as stiff, so being hit by a cloak is more like being hit by a foam board. Still not that powerful of a hit, but when there's a giant wielding it....

Also, I don't think the problem with the force-twisting mechanic shows up in the head-neck situation; it's much more visible when you aim at the fingers. Hitting someone in the fingers/toes, despite not being very well known, is one of the most OP things you can do when fighting; the force causes your opponent's wrists/ankles to split apart even with pretty weak hits, immediately disabling that arm. This, I think, is due to the game considering finger bones to be as durable as any other bone; instead of taking out your finger and perhaps spraining your wrist, it takes your entire goddamn arm with it. Not to mention the unrealistic aspect of hitting individual fingers, especially when the fingers are holding on to something.....
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Rumrusher on March 01, 2018, 10:00:10 pm
So... make everyone hands and wrists and fingers have the same muscle and skin density of the head and neck regions?
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 01, 2018, 10:40:27 pm
Quote from: Rumrusher on March 01, 2018, 10:00:10 pm
So... make everyone hands and wrists and fingers have the same muscle and skin density of the head and neck regions?

Well, maybe, but I was thinking of making fingers more flimsy, so that the force is mostly distributed to them instead of the wrist or elbow. Or perhaps make fingers not targetable at all, I mean, the idea of a hammerdwarf swinging his mace around specifically trying to hit some guy's middle finger (and somehow succeeding a lot of the time) just doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Rumrusher on March 02, 2018, 04:14:50 am
Quote from: bloop_bleep on March 01, 2018, 10:40:27 pm
Quote from: Rumrusher on March 01, 2018, 10:00:10 pm
So... make everyone hands and wrists and fingers have the same muscle and skin density of the head and neck regions?

Well, maybe, but I was thinking of making fingers more flimsy, so that the force is mostly distributed to them instead of the wrist or elbow. Or perhaps make fingers not targetable at all, I mean, the idea of a hammerdwarf swinging his mace around specifically trying to hit some guy's middle finger (and somehow succeeding a lot of the time) just doesn't make sense.
okay I was wondering what you meant because having any body part be target-able seem to make Total sense in a "hey I want knock off only Ringfingers off my opponents." and the Random targeted body parts bit of DF if we're talking about NPC who probably swing for anything that probably has a better hit chance.
and given the hammer dwarf train in the art of hammering Means they get a boosted skill in Accuracy which allows them to pull off those Strikes.
like I guess with this game you kinda have to imagine how the attack taken off a whole arm from the aim finger, probably positioning of the hand

(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder5/hammering-an-arm-off.png)
seems like something !!science!! could solve but I don't know how FUN would that mod would be, probably prolong fights and lead to changing tactics to just stabbing someone or choking them out like usual, or weird giant elephantlike men who pass out from pain long before their limbs take enough damage to be removed.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 02, 2018, 08:02:07 am
In dwarf fortress all creatures are actually a mass of floating body parts connected by skeins of invisible force, some inside of others, which is why you can target someone's third back left tooth then grab it with your toes and pin them while using a pike to stab their left ring finger.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Urist Sonuvagimli on March 07, 2018, 07:24:32 am
Can confirm the "twists the toe tearing lower leg apart". Here's straight example:

(https://image.ibb.co/jBRQyS/stab_o_doom.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
<a target='_blank' href='https://imgbb.com/'>pic upload[/url]


Iron-armored, Superhuman Str, Endurance, Toughness adventurer. An Adequate level swordsman launched the puny deflected stab with a shit-quality short sword that bounced off the plate gauntlet... And instantly crippled the hand.

I would be content if this was a one-of-a-kind bad luck roll, but this happens all the time in fights. The only redeeming factor is that tendons torn this way heal back fully.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on March 07, 2018, 08:57:48 am
Just recently I was hit in the eyelid with a sword hard enough to twist the head. Eyes are just fine though...
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Kars on March 12, 2018, 07:52:25 pm
Yeah, I guess the "warhammer to the head" was a bit of a bad example, but there definitely is a problem with it being too flimsy. I've been hit in the finger with a rock and had it tear my arm into pieces. I don't care much about realism or balance (as long as its not TOO bad) but the nervous tissue makes it really hard to justify armor or two handed weapons when I can focus purely on shields and dodging and have much better results

Edit: Also, with the warhammer example I meant it literally just took a love tap. I don't mean a hard swing or a lucky hit or a cyan (!) hit, just a Quick hit is enough. Taking someone out with a hit to the head from a warhammer through a helmet should be a bit more luck/skill/strength involved than that
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Rumrusher on March 13, 2018, 03:31:29 am
Quote from: Kars on March 12, 2018, 07:52:25 pm
Yeah, I guess the "warhammer to the head" was a bit of a bad example, but there definitely is a problem with it being too flimsy. I've been hit in the finger with a rock and had it tear my arm into pieces. I don't care much about realism or balance (as long as its not TOO bad) but the nervous tissue makes it really hard to justify armor or two handed weapons when I can focus purely on shields and dodging and have much better results

Edit: Also, with the warhammer example I meant it literally just took a love tap. I don't mean a hard swing or a lucky hit or a cyan (!) hit, just a Quick hit is enough. Taking someone out with a hit to the head from a warhammer through a helmet should be a bit more luck/skill/strength involved than that

well a Love tap in Dwarf fortress is when your Sparring with someone and lightly tap them which can't really get access too unless you dfhack a flag on your adventurer or the second best choice is Hitting someone with an item that Weights so light it phases through or applys no force at all(uhh kinda seen that there is such an attack where no force is applied and it was a push).
Everything else is hits going as hard as they can with mix amount of strength depending on if they are weak or insanely strong via attributes.
like there many Factors that are hidden in an attack that depends on the character's Raws,

like aren't quick attacks just fast not accurate but I don't know if it weakens the Attack.
probably an better example is seeing if a training hammer made out of the lightest wood being swung by a strength Attribute weak person will Rip someone's arm off with one swing?
like below average strength
so I figured why not experiment and screencap a study of what would be the Weakest attack where the Force multiplier would have no effect.
 here a hamsterman with a bronze maul swinging at a peasant while stealth in a quick attack.
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder5/the-lightest-tap-tests.png)
here the hamsterman doing an attack on a finger at no attack modifiers
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder5/the-lightest-tap-tests2.png)
and the hamsterman's stats to show that yes they are grandmaster hammerer while having No strength at all.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
if there anything to (personally) learn from this is that yeah it seems like quick attack does Do less damage, and it possible for a grandmaster at a Skill Doesn't amp your hit to Murder or rip their limb just makes you able to hit them... or maybe that was the Stealth strikes clearing the difficulty of hitting that part.
also it seems like No force = didn't take any damage.
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder5/now-this-is-funny.png)
and a clear up to the no force bit here the wounds the peasant I was bashing with a maul.
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder5/the-lightest-tap-tests-subject-A.png)
might not be the weapons or skill but the characters your facing might be above average in strength to pull off feats like these... best treat everyone as secret hercs until Dfhack comes out and you can check otherwise.
or more SCIENCE is needed and not on the Adventurer side aswell. shoot this peasant probably insanely strong for all I know from the description.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: gnome on March 13, 2018, 05:42:43 am
The only time I notice things like this is when there's a significant size difference between opponents, and imo that's exactly how it should be. Maybe I haven't experimented enough with hammers, though.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 13, 2018, 11:28:56 am
Your research is somewhat invalidated by the fact that you're using a hamsterman. We're referring in this case to fights between humanoids of roughly equal size.
Quote from: gnome on March 13, 2018, 05:42:43 am
The only time I notice things like this is when there's a significant size difference between opponents, and imo that's exactly how it should be. Maybe I haven't experimented enough with hammers, though.
But as I said, we have been noticing this in equal fights as well. Even really weak hits with crappy weapons used by lowly-skilled fighters that bounce off the armor anyway (like in Urist Sonuvagimli's case) are able to do completely disproportionate amounts of damage through twisting.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Rumrusher on March 13, 2018, 05:13:03 pm
oh I used a weak low strength hamsterman to see if the force multiplier is that strong that it could damage or probably kill someone so far it seems like it could just bruise skin.
given that folks kinda not showing off their characters(outside of that one person who said they got hit by a puny attack) and the idea that your all kinda playing folks with GODly amount of strength fighting folks of the same size would lead to limbs flying  off.
and vice versa on fighting npcs given their attributes are probably randomized or years of training would give them above average in strength.

so here the same test again but with a human of Grandmaster skill in hammering but lowest average human strength doing a quick attack.
from the looks of it kinda just messed with the wrist.
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder5/the-lightest-tap-tests3.png)
and the same attack on a different hand  without the quick attack modifier.
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder5/the-lightest-tap-tests4.png)
as it seems the human size and probably raw strength is probably great enough that the quick attack modifier doesn't seem to change the damage that much unlike the hamsterman, but the low strength did mitigate the attack to just bruising the wrist and not say ripping off the entire arm.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
though kinda feel like the force stuff cares about Strength attribute and not skill, having done both of the tests above with Grandmasters Hammermen at their lowest strength  though I can't say much about npc attacks as unless one has dfhack at the time of those attacks to check those characters strengths it's up in the air on whether they are hitting you like a hamsterman or a elephantman?
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 13, 2018, 05:21:28 pm
It didn't really "just bruise the wrist." It quite literally tore apart the wrist, thus causing the opponent to immediately drop his weapon, which is a death sentence most of the time. Try this with the same amount of strength and lower skill.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Rumrusher on March 13, 2018, 07:24:50 pm
Quote from: bloop_bleep on March 13, 2018, 05:21:28 pm
It didn't really "just bruise the wrist." It quite literally tore apart the wrist, thus causing the opponent to immediately drop his weapon, which is a death sentence most of the time. Try this with the same amount of strength and lower skill.
bruising the wrist? oh poop I mean Bruising the Hand, the wrist seems to be bleeding.
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder5/the-lightest-tap-tests-subject-B3.png)
also I really Really don't think Skill has a factor in damage just if you hit or not, the past 2 tests were to see if legendary like weaponlord with no strength could rip limbs off...
hmm probably going to save time Reusing this human adventurer and just shield bash as they got no skills in that than making a new adventurer with low strength, and even lower chance to Hit someone.
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder5/the-lightest-tap-tests5.png)
uhh well this adventurer got slap in the gut by a mace so kinda had to find another test subject to apply the No quick attack modifier shield bash to test the No to low skill on a low strength character.
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder5/the-lightest-tap-tests6.png)
and this time no force was applied just a bruised hand.

crud wait was I proving there no vanilla light tap in adventure mode only to see that there kinda is if you play an low strength adventurer and do a quick attack?  but was also wrong on skill not factoring as it seems shield bashing then again I probably should just Roll up a new adventurer in the off chance this isn't enough
Spoiler: test subject C (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: test subject C stats (click to show/hide)


I don't know what this data says, given to me DF attacks kinda always been the same outside of the addon to strong blunt attacks can cut/rip limbs off than just Bruise. so all weapons might be tough enough to do cutting damage if your Strong enough. like kinda wonder if the factor of Weapons and Items you wear can be destroyed in battle would mess with folks as Armor and weapons will deteriorate in a prolong battle...
also that I wish for a Spar toggle having seen how that would look through dfhacking it,

I'll end this test with smacking someone in the back of the head with a quick attack, and a normal attack with testsubject C
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Kars on March 14, 2018, 04:27:44 am
I'll start posting my characters and doing more tests with actual adventurers once I can play again, I gave up video games for lent so I'm unable to do so right now :P sorry. It's not like balance is hard to necessarily destroy in DF so it's really not the biggest problem in the world, considering I could just play an elephant man and run around crushing everything effortlessly or play as a hamsterman and run around having the hardest game of my life if I really wanted an extreme end of either challenge. I just kinda miss that middle-ground challenge of setting up a hero Human/Elf/Dwarf, cause now it's either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard with not much in between
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Rumrusher on March 14, 2018, 06:59:05 am
Quote from: Kars on March 14, 2018, 04:27:44 am
I'll start posting my characters and doing more tests with actual adventurers once I can play again, I gave up video games for lent so I'm unable to do so right now :P sorry. It's not like balance is hard to necessarily destroy in DF so it's really not the biggest problem in the world, considering I could just play an elephant man and run around crushing everything effortlessly or play as a hamsterman and run around having the hardest game of my life if I really wanted an extreme end of either challenge. I just kinda miss that middle-ground challenge of setting up a hero Human/Elf/Dwarf, cause now it's either ridiculously easy or ridiculously hard with not much in between
there probably a middle ground some where in the vast Animal people who probably range in different sizes and strengths. though I say if there ever is a middle over time you get used to the struggles and it dips into easy.
Real glad to jump into this thread to do some science. it got me to see what happens when you Swing an bronze mace at someone Really fast as an hamsterman who trained in the art of the hammer.
Didn't realize there a way to simulate Sparring lightly tap someone that way.
also uhh gloves seem to not cover fingers on hits so I guess DF has Fingerless gloves/mittens.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: auzewasright on March 14, 2018, 09:15:52 am
Quote from: Madman198237 on February 14, 2018, 11:44:02 am
Quote from: Maximum Spin on February 14, 2018, 10:58:44 am
Quote from: Kars on February 14, 2018, 07:20:16 am
[...]with a warhammer[...]Smack someone on the head once and their spine rips up[...]even through steel helmets!
That's, uh, fairly reasonable, actually. Have you ever been hit on the head with a warhammer? Spoiler: It will kill you. A helmet does nothing to change the fact of the momentum being transferred through your skull to your neck tissue, which is why so many experts think bicycle helmets are pointless, for example.

If the helmet is properly padded it'll help a bit...but you're still going down if it's a solid hit from a strong (strong for a human) enemy. You won't have a crushed skull if you're wearing a good (i.e., STEEL) helmet, but you will probably not be standing back up for the rest of the day. Depending on where you're hit, of course, it might actually twist your neck far enough to snap it, but that'd take quite the hit to do.

It's not necessarily a one-hit kill (otherwise every late-medieval/Renaissance-period knight in full plate would've carried around a war hammer instead of a halberd or a name-your-medieval-pole-mounted-Swiss-Army-Knife-weapon), but if you let somebody get a solid hit in on you, you're going to feel it.
Most had neck armor, before plate armor, maces and war hammers were common weapons.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Madman198237 on March 14, 2018, 10:25:49 am
But they weren't?

Maces, yeah, sometimes, but war hammers became common almost exclusively as a response to the prevalence of plate armor. Also, what the heck does neck armor have to do with the twisting of the neck through a strike to the head?

Also, mail (which is what most neck-covering armor is made of, until the very, very late-period invention of things like the gorget) won't stop a strike from a blunt weapon. The padding behind it might help, but not on the neck, it's too thin there.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Rumrusher on March 14, 2018, 11:42:52 am
Oh yeah doesn't getting hit in the head causes the Brain to bounce around in the skull which might lead to death or a knock out... or Dwarf fortress Form of brain damage?
which now ponder how does a Werebeast handle Brain damage? regenerating head trauma sounds like a hellish nightmare.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: mikekchar on March 15, 2018, 01:28:14 am
There are 2 things that happen when A hits B.  1: Some of the momentum is transferred from A to B, accelerating B.  2: Some of the momentum deforms B.  The ratio between #1 and #2 depends on the surface area of contact and the speed difference between A and B.  Let's ignore surface area for the moment.

Imagine standing next to a glacier that is slowly sliding down a mountain at a rate of about 10 cm a year.  Because it is HUGE, it has a ridiculous amount of momentum.    The speed is about 1.14e-8 km per hour.  Let's say it is 1 km x 1 km x 100 m of ice, or 1.0e23 kgs. If you stand next to it, it will very, very, very slowly push you down the hill and you will not take any damage.  Now imagine a truck weighing 5000 kg.  To have the same momentum as the glacier, it will need to travel faster than the speed of light...  So pick any ridiculous speed you want and imagine how much B will be deformed.  Basically it will be vaporised before very much momentum is transferred.

When talking about damaging the head, what often happens is that the head is accelerated, causing the brain to hit the skull.  You can think of your brain as a passenger in a car.  If the car accelerates quickly, the passenger is pushed into the side.  Same basic principal.  If you want to cause this kind of damage (to knock someone out, for example), you want to strike relatively slowly, but with a lot of strength (force).  This minimises the deformation and maximises the acceleration.  On the other hand, if you want to deform the head (crack open the skull), you want to hit very quickly.

This is one of the reasons that boxing uses boxing gloves.  It minimises broken bones, but at the potential expense of internal damage.  The padding absorbs some of the impact, which effectively reduces the impact.  If you are strong, you can punch "through" your target, accelerating it.  This allows you to position your opponent and also knock them out.  It also allows people with relatively poor striking form to hit without breaking their own bones (oddly, due to physics, if A strikes B, A is more likely to break).

Very quickly, I want to discuss the matter of bicycle helmets because I think it's kind of important to understand in real life.  I'll explain in 2 dimensions because it is easier, but it applies equally in 3 dimensions.  Let's say your head is 2 meters above the ground when you are riding your bike.  If you fall over with nothing to slow you down, your head will be travelling about 22.5 km/h when it hits the pavement.  This is why people routinely die from hitting their head on the pavement if someone knocks them out (important note: *never* get into a fight -- it's more dangerous than you think).

Now, imagine that you are riding forward on your bike at 40 km/h and you fall off your bike.  At what speed does your head hit the ground?  Answer: 22.5 km/h.  Why?  You are still going forward at 40 km/h, but in a *forward* direction.  The speed in the *down* direction is still the same as if you weren't moving forward at all.  The only difference is that pavement will pull all the skin off whatever is on the down side.  Just to help the logic sink in, imagine falling off your bike and *just* before you hit the ground, you hit a street light.  How fast do you hit the street light?  40 km/h.  And then you hit the ground at 22.5 km/h...

Now, here's the thing.  Bicycle helmets are tested by dropping them 2 meters onto an anvil.  In other words, *it is tested at 22.5 km/h*.   It will save your life if you fall off your bike at any speed *as long as you don't hit anything in the forward direction*.  If you hit anything in the forward direction, you are pretty much toast.   It is only meant to protect you from hitting the pavement.  However, *most* accidents happen that way.

And just for some useless anecdata: When I was first dating my wife we went for a bike ride.  I had bought a bike helmet for her, but she didn't want to wear it.  Eventually she agreed to shut me up.  About 30 km out, my wife managed to get her wheel caught in a grate.  I watched as over she went, landing directly on her head.  It split the helmet in two.  We cycled home.  She never gets on her bike without a helmet any more.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: assimilateur on March 15, 2018, 06:25:28 pm
That's a scary story mate. Glad she was OK.

So anyway, how do we mod this force translation stuff to behave more reasonably? As others have said, someone slashing at your steel-gauntlet-clad hand with a copper sword should not result in a smashed wrist and permanent nerve damage unless it's literally the Hulk doing it, in which case he'd be better of using his fists anyway.

Personally, I already mod my raws to take out nerves from anything, as they have been too ridiculously flimsy ever since they got introduced as a separate tissue. But I'm completely in the dark when it comes to modding weapons, materials, or other tissues to behave more realistically.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: Rumrusher on March 15, 2018, 08:50:58 pm
Quote from: assimilateur on March 15, 2018, 06:25:28 pm
That's a scary story mate. Glad she was OK.

So anyway, how do we mod this force translation stuff to behave more reasonably? As others have said, someone slashing at your steel-gauntlet-clad hand with a copper sword should not result in a smashed wrist and permanent nerve damage unless it's literally the Hulk doing it, in which case he'd be better of using his fists anyway.

Personally, I already mod my raws to take out nerves from anything, as they have been too ridiculously flimsy ever since they got introduced as a separate tissue. But I'm completely in the dark when it comes to modding weapons, materials, or other tissues to behave more realistically.
from my experiments with force messing it seems like you do that by either Modding everyone* to have higher toughness while having lower strength or make everyone hamstermen.
*the races your going to play as, since Everyone would take time to Mess with and by then your spent more time Modding than you have Playing.
might be good use to pop over to DFmodding to see if anyone could help.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: assimilateur on March 16, 2018, 06:22:15 pm
I'd rather avoid mods like that. I'm assuming there has to be a way of modding tissues and materials that would make this work somewhat more realistically.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 16, 2018, 08:11:10 pm
Quote from: assimilateur on March 16, 2018, 06:22:15 pm
I'd rather avoid mods like that. I'm assuming there has to be a way of modding tissues and materials that would make this work somewhat more realistically.

Raise the toughness of joint bodypart tissues like elbows and ankles.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: assimilateur on March 17, 2018, 06:24:36 am
Could you be more specific? I don't think there's such a thing as an "elbow" tissue.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 17, 2018, 01:01:36 pm
Quote from: assimilateur on March 17, 2018, 06:24:36 am
Could you be more specific? I don't think there's such a thing as an "elbow" tissue.

Perhaps
Code: [Select]
[RELSIZE:BY_CATEGORY:JOINT:300] or something like that, to increase the mass of joints?
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: assimilateur on March 18, 2018, 08:34:26 am
Please start by clarifying which raw that is even supposed to go to. I checked the tissue template default, body default, and creature standard files and they don't look like the right file for this.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 18, 2018, 06:18:49 pm
Dwarves have [RELSIZEE:BY_CATEGORY:LIVER:300] to triple the size of their livers. Place it in the same place that goes.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: assimilateur on March 19, 2018, 07:24:01 am
Found it now. I'll see what I can do with this tonight.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: hertggf on March 27, 2018, 04:22:06 pm
I think what you would want to change is [MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:CARTILAGE_TEMPLATE] in material_template_default.txt.  Maybe [MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SINEW_TEMPLATE] as well

The current values don't seem to have been given much thought; every soft tissue material *_YIELD and *_FRACTURE is just set to 10000 except for SHEAR_*

In particular giving cartilage higher IMPACT_FRACTURE (but not _YIELD) and lower IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD might help.
Title: Re: The force twists the game balance, tearing apart the difficulty!
Post by: random_odd_guy on April 28, 2018, 10:49:28 pm
The only thing about game balance I ever really had a problem with was the crossbow cheese of versions past, in which a singular crossbow bolt from some bandit recruit would instantly perforate the torso of a steel clad hyper legendary adventurer who fights off bronze colossi with ease, tearing straight through the armor, piercing the lung, and causing them to instantly collapse mid fight with no hope of recovery.

It was just plain obnoxious that bandit camps were more difficult quests than megabeasts. Bronze colossi? Psssh. Dragons? Nah. But as soon as one dude with a crossbow showed up it was all over...