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Dwarf Fortress => DF Adventure Mode Discussion => Topic started by: High_priest_of_Ru on October 29, 2018, 01:22:32 pm

Title: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on October 29, 2018, 01:22:32 pm
THE KEY PROBLEM:

Have you met the problem, that AI doesn't participate in battle of their friends with player?

This problem enters DF after 34 version. When you are became aggressive towards anyone in 40 or 42 as adventurer, it will result only in cries and run of your victim and some psychopathic watching of another dwellers of the site.

Really, as for me its awful bug which nullifies fun from the game and forces to use only old versions of DF. Even if i attacks faction leader in his own house, most of the guards ignores fighting. Completely. I remember an attempt when i attacked powerful vampire lady, and she only ran from me and cried, when her guards and civilians absolutely did nothing. When i killed this lady after about 30 minutes of boring racing, i got understanding of her equipment and battle skills as immense good (she wore all masterwork items and were dodged my attacks as quite experienced master-in-evade). So this lady could kill my adventurer in a couple of hits - but the vampire which killed thousands of living, could only die in racing.

I tried to set national bravery (i don't remember correct name of this token, so it's the one, minotaurs have at 100) at max value, but civilians and many armed guards in castle were still ran from badly armored attacker with whip or wooden spear. An experiment shows that aggression in mixed castle with about 50 dwellers in one big keeplike room results in 3 or 4 defenders (bard, 1 or 2 cookers and 1 combatant), when there were at least 7 armed guards. Another dwellers were only ran, cried and ... But stop, that's all what they did.

It's even more awful when i taking quest on killing the bandit and when i entering bandit camp i see fking friendly bandits... I tried to declare my intentions in dialogue - but it failed. They just cry and don't fight with me. The most impressive result i'd got - single bandit after my attack were fought with me. His friends did nothing. Nice, yes?

I don't want to teach anyone, but Medieval Ages were quite cruel, and even villagers weren't easy to be plundered for bands of robbers. They fought, especially when they had an advantage in numbers. What about warriors - the meaning of their life were in defense of their masters. That's what they were paid for.

Of course, situation in 34 version or earlier, when even domestic animals of nation attacks its enemy, is quite controversial too - but it's FUNNY!

And i can't say, that such hardcore roguelike, such unique openworld fantasy game with complex battle system as Dwarf Fortress brings me fun with this casual update of morale. Adventure mode in DF now is not even close to old hardcore and not even close to realism - and this hurts me as i can't enjoy updates of taverns and another sides of adventure DF as coming magic.

So the question: how to return battle system in DF? I mean, in 40 and 42 there are no battles it all without strong attempts of player to set terror and fear among hearts of peaceful good guys? (which are so awful that even bogeymans are fear to enter their sites at night). Is there any mod or something else fixing that weird bug?


WAYS TO RESOLVE:

BASIC WAY - Blessing Creatures:
This one we need all the ways as it allows to partially and softly resolve this problem, increasing civilized creatures' skills. This automatically improves their morale. Without this many creatures will run from any attackers from way bellow.

Don't think this will make creatures Terminatorlike - battle system in recent version is more casual and based on random more than on skills.
Quote from: Sver on November 02, 2018, 03:17:07 pm
"Bravery", as in the personality token, does not seem to affect much, although, very high values are rumored to increase the chance of a civilian joining a fight, so, yeah, you can try that. The effect of the Discipline skill should be more noticeable though, I think.

If you're looking for a challenge specifically, I would recommend adding some more natural skills to your potential opponents, because the skill difference between combatants in DF is times more important than the numbers advantage. Here's what I use personally:
Spoiler: for humans and goblins (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for elves (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for kobolds (click to show/hide)
You can play with the numbers here to your liking - just take note that the value of 15 is max (Legendary). Natural skills do not affect adventurers, so you'll still have to train as usual.

You can also get some combat mod to top it off - mine (in the sig) or Grimlocke's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146737.0), for instance. The game itself has a lot of loose ends in terms of combat, and it is yet uncertain when the development returns to it again. For now, such mods offer fixes and improvements to combat wherever possible.

Additional Improvement 1 - Domestic Death:
This variant allows to spawn different evil creatures as domestic animals, allowing them to attack dwellers of site. Fun depends on site generator. This changes DF atmosphere a bit.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Additional Improvement 2 - Really Evil Nations:
This variant allows to make many creatures so hostile as undead in trivial DF are. This allows to create and sustain really big bloodbath. Atmosphere is injured, however. As it based on adding creatures tags 'Opposed to Life' and this means they're all part of one big evil faction, you need to chose which nations will be evil (for example, dwarfes are evil and humans are trivial, than in mixed settlement dwarfs will attack everyone who not undead. So trivial creatures will run and fight with evil ones.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Additional Improvement 3 - There Is No Surrender:
This variant allows to partially resolve the problem slightly by turning all possible conflicts into "No Quarter" (maximum lethal) state. Quite soft decision.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Thanks to all members of DF community for taking part in this discussion! More ways to bloody fight in the name of Armok!
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: George_Chickens on October 31, 2018, 03:39:03 am
Have you tried version 44?
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on October 31, 2018, 09:36:14 am
Quote from: George_Chickens on October 31, 2018, 03:39:03 am
Have you tried version 44?

Yes. In last version it looks the same. Fight with animals works properly, but not with intelligent creatures.

Does it looks different for you? I tried to play on some Windows based system, it worked bad everywhere.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Casany on November 02, 2018, 08:48:20 am
Honestly, having the same issue. Friendly bandits, half the time friendly night creatures, and friendly titans. Whenever I attack a noble or a king or queen, either no one else attacks and they run or one person does.

I dunno, it is kinda off-putting when you're in a titans shrine just slicing him up as he stands there, refusing to attack. Of course after like 2 hits and 2 attempts to yield by the Titan he starts attacking, but aren't they naturally supposed to be hostile, along with every other beast? Same with bandits. I'll start attacking the leader (Who will yield, and then start running) while the other two watch with the simple "It is horrifying" or "It was inevitable" when he dies.

Any way I could go about like, fixing this issue? Last time I played was two weeks ago too, so simply updating isn't going to fix anything.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 02, 2018, 10:42:15 am
Quote from: Casany on November 02, 2018, 08:48:20 am
Honestly, having the same issue. Friendly bandits, half the time friendly night creatures, and friendly titans. Whenever I attack a noble or a king or queen, either no one else attacks and they run or one person does.

I dunno, it is kinda off-putting when you're in a titans shrine just slicing him up as he stands there, refusing to attack. Of course after like 2 hits and 2 attempts to yield by the Titan he starts attacking, but aren't they naturally supposed to be hostile, along with every other beast? Same with bandits. I'll start attacking the leader (Who will yield, and then start running) while the other two watch with the simple "It is horrifying" or "It was inevitable" when he dies.

Any way I could go about like, fixing this issue? Last time I played was two weeks ago too, so simply updating isn't going to fix anything.

We're sharing this pain)

Can we contact Toady One via this forum to ask him about possible solution? Because i tried to report this bug via Mantis, and got no answer.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 02, 2018, 11:04:45 am
Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 02, 2018, 10:42:15 am
Quote from: Casany on November 02, 2018, 08:48:20 am
Honestly, having the same issue. Friendly bandits, half the time friendly night creatures, and friendly titans. Whenever I attack a noble or a king or queen, either no one else attacks and they run or one person does.

I dunno, it is kinda off-putting when you're in a titans shrine just slicing him up as he stands there, refusing to attack. Of course after like 2 hits and 2 attempts to yield by the Titan he starts attacking, but aren't they naturally supposed to be hostile, along with every other beast? Same with bandits. I'll start attacking the leader (Who will yield, and then start running) while the other two watch with the simple "It is horrifying" or "It was inevitable" when he dies.

Any way I could go about like, fixing this issue? Last time I played was two weeks ago too, so simply updating isn't going to fix anything.

We're sharing this pain)

Can we contact Toady One via this forum to ask him about possible solution? Because i tried to report this bug via Mantis, and got no answer.
You may have noticed the hundreds of other bugs on mantis. If it's reported, it's reported, will get fixed when the one single human working on the game decides it's time to fix adventurer combat. You won't get a reply. What kind of reply would you expect? Thank you, yes I'll fix this bug. I'd much rather time was spent fixing bugs than being polite on mantis.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 02, 2018, 12:09:03 pm
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller on November 02, 2018, 11:04:45 am
You may have noticed the hundreds of other bugs on mantis. If it's reported, it's reported, will get fixed when the one single human working on the game decides it's time to fix adventurer combat. You won't get a reply. What kind of reply would you expect? Thank you, yes I'll fix this bug. I'd much rather time was spent fixing bugs than being polite on mantis.

I got it. But this concrete bug exists in some years and can not be compared with minor bug with menu or drinking or something else. It is major bug, or even critical, which prevents adequate fighting in adventure mode. What kind of activity you are realizing as adventurer? I mean, is it some kind of talking or running or building which can bring fun without fight?

Because problems with adventurer mode's AI looks like problems with building in fortress mode. I mean, i got no game without fight as you'd get no game without building. Would you have fun with 7 dwarves without opportunity to build?

It's not a bug. That's just a critical problem with part of the game. IDK why some years are not enough time to fix it. You say that a man will find his own time? Yap. I understand. But i mean, that it is not a game with this bug. If someone publish his game, he awaits something? At least he awaits that publishing product is a game. But now it's nothing to play in adventurer mode as there is nobody to fight with. The meaning of RPG is fighting - yes? There are some aims more, but DF have no plot or graphic to read or enjoy. It's fight. At least it WAS fight.

I can't believe that since first update of 40 version there were no bugreports of morale in adventurer mode. More - i remember a guy who said about posting bugreport on mantis about 'dat couple of years ago.  So the reply i am awaiting is reply about - will this bug be fixed? Or its just 'feature' or something unfixable else?

P.S. I don't mean any demands to Toady - it's his decision to publish or update the game as he want. Its just answer to Shonai and a question for community members or to the developer.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 02, 2018, 01:06:55 pm
I get attacked and fight things in Adventurer all the time. It's not like this happens in every encounter.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 02, 2018, 01:26:39 pm
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller on November 02, 2018, 01:06:55 pm
I get attacked and fight things in Adventurer all the time. It's not like this happens in every encounter.

In last version?

Well, i'm not speaking about encounters. To the truth, in last version i didn't try 'em as i tried in 30+ versions and 42+. There were real fights with big bands of random attackers in 30+ ones - and couple of random and peaceful adventurers in 40+.

Can you try to attack dwellers or leaders of any random settlement and look at how many of them will fight with aggressor? Probably your mods helps you?

P.S. Also i heard that if the adventurer is experienced enough - i don't know how many monsters or men should he beat for that, but guess that the thing is in reputation with faction, so it needs to have quite bad one with quite good fame - civilization becomes complete enemy of adventurer and its members fight with him instantly. But the thing is in numbers - and in very big numbers. And i am bored to kill helpless people instead of interesting strategic fighting (as new update of moving speed made fights very interesting.. but it's hard to enjoy true fight, not racing the runner).
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Cathar on November 02, 2018, 02:28:43 pm
In the last version, I had brutal fights against civilian goblins as I tried to sneak through their fortress and received perma injuries in the process. Are you playing as a hero/demigod? Or as an elephant man demi god with all skill point in fight related skills? Are you savescumming?

Franckly this game has been a endless mine of challenge for me.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 02, 2018, 02:31:26 pm
Quote from: Cathar on November 02, 2018, 02:28:43 pm
In the last version, I had brutal fights against civilian goblins as I tried to sneak through their fortress and received perma injuries in the process. Are you playing as a hero/demigod? Or as an elephant man demi god with all skill point in fight related skills? Are you savescumming?

Franckly this game has been a endless mine of challenge for me.

Never savescum, always villager-human, lasher or spearman with skil in throwing if playing last version as in old ones AI can't throw and i don't wanna cheat. First training in wild nature - swimming, hunting. Then trying to attack people.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Cathar on November 02, 2018, 02:41:22 pm
That's extremely strange... I have met people who didn't want to fight, but never experienced a situation where people would just run away from me by default. I get regularly attacked by wildlife, and goblins just run at me screaming.

That's really wierd
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Sver on November 02, 2018, 02:46:13 pm
Do you have [NATURAL_SKILL:DISCIPLINE:1] modded in for civilized creatures? If not, I highly recommend to add it, so as to avoid at least some of the morale screwiness, both for the adventure and the fortress. Add the same or stronger discipline to other creatures, and you can get some braver trolls, dogs etc. - as war animals, they can be insufferable cowards too.
This does not address the hostility bug itself - which no doubt exists, but seems to only affect encounters or situations where the 'loyalty system' is at conflict - but it certainly smoothes the gameplay.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 02, 2018, 02:52:11 pm
Quote from: Sver on November 02, 2018, 02:46:13 pm
Do you have [NATURAL_SKILL:DISCIPLINE:1] modded in for civilized creatures? If not, I highly recommend to add it, so as to avoid at least some of the morale screwiness, both for the adventure and the fortress. Add the same or stronger discipline to other creatures, and you can get some braver trolls, dogs etc. - as war animals, they can be insufferable cowards too.
This does not address the hostility bug itself - which no doubt exists, but seems to only affect encounters or situations where the 'loyalty system' is at conflict - but it certainly smoothes the gameplay.

No, i am speaking about fresh, just downloaded DF without any mods and plays with raws.

I'll try to use this token, thanks you a lot. I am interesting in fight with civilized creatures in 40+, especially in attacking cities with army of creatures belonging to another faction. Mount&Bladelike wish, i know)

Can i modify another tokens? I mean, do you know another ones except bravery, which can help to fix this situation a bit?
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Sver on November 02, 2018, 03:17:07 pm
"Bravery", as in the personality token, does not seem to affect much, although, very high values are rumored to increase the chance of a civilian joining a fight, so, yeah, you can try that. The effect of the Discipline skill should be more noticeable though, I think.

If you're looking for a challenge specifically, I would recommend adding some more natural skills to your potential opponents, because the skill difference between combatants in DF is times more important than the numbers advantage. Here's what I use personally:
Spoiler: for humans and goblins (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for elves (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for kobolds (click to show/hide)
You can play with the numbers here to your liking - just take note that the value of 15 is max (Legendary). Natural skills do not affect adventurers, so you'll still have to train as usual.
Edit, for context:: 5 = Proficient; 9 = Professional; 10 = Accomplished.

You can also get some combat mod to top it off - mine (in the sig) or Grimlocke's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146737.0), for instance. The game itself has a lot of loose ends in terms of combat, and it is yet uncertain when the development returns to it again. For now, such mods offer fixes and improvements to combat wherever possible.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 02, 2018, 03:22:56 pm
Quote from: Sver on November 02, 2018, 03:17:07 pm
"Bravery", as in the personality token, does not seem to affect much, although, very high values are rumored to increase the chance of a civilian joining a fight, so, yeah, you can try that. The effect of the Discipline skill should be more noticeable though, I think.

If you're looking for a challenge specifically, I would recommend adding some more natural skills to your potential opponents, because the skill difference between combatants in DF is times more important than the numbers advantage. Here's what I use personally:
Spoiler: for humans and goblins (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for elves (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for kobolds (click to show/hide)
You can play with the numbers here to your liking - just take note that the value of 15 is max (Legendary). Natural skills do not affect adventurers, so you'll still have to train as usual.

You can also get some combat mod to top it off - mine (in the sig) or Grimlocke's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146737.0), for instance. The game itself has a lot of loose ends in terms of combat, and it is yet uncertain when the development returns to it again. For now, such mods offer fixes and improvements to combat wherever possible.

Thank you! I will try this. You light a spark of hope in my soul)
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Sver on November 02, 2018, 04:00:15 pm
You're welcome :)

Just keep in mind that natural skills, if added, will be given to absolutely everyone of said race, including the lowly peasants; the adventurer is the sole exception. I suppose this is something you'd want, though, because neither villages nor towns in DF have any sort of large standing military - usually there's a small garrison of guards and that's about it.

You can further amplify the challenge presented by adventure mode civilians through giving their civs a couple more sharp tools to play with; in vanilla, their options are limited to kitchen knives and forks, which are as threatening as they sound really. For that, there is a vanilla-friendly "optional tools" file in my mod (point 8 under "Installation" on how to add them), as well as this standalone mod by Liber celi (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=144493.0). These plus natural skills should suffice to create the feel of some ragtag militia being raised against you at the sign of attack.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Robsoie on November 11, 2018, 08:15:26 pm
I've reported this some years ago as unfortunately i ran into the same problem when i moved out of 34.11 adventure mode to higher versions.

In 40.x to 42.x adventure mode was all about how your opponents or enemies were always running away from you, or never attacking you or simply being overly passive despite being your enemy and even after you killed their best friends or even stabbed them repeatedly they were doing nothing.

basically it was nowhere near close to the epic battles and challenge of 34.11 , many people (i also did too) reported those kind of problems on the mantis bug tracker since years.

Now in current version i must say there have been some improvement regarding this heavy problem, as "sometime" (there's still a lot of running away) your enemies actually fight back but overly passive -enemies- (or even neutral or allies that do not fight their own obvious enemies or stay passive in front of their friend getting assaulted) can still be found.
And it's a big problem to several situations in adventure mode.

By example remember in  34.11 the time of exposing a vampire , leading into some epic battle because the vampire being exposed is trying to silence you (and they were damned strong) while the people and guards around you join you in the fight against the terrible creature of the night as soon as they realise who he truly is ?

In recent version, most of the time the vampire does not care or is still oddly passive and none of the people around will even care despite the vampire murder them everytime he's needing blood. And if you fight him most of the time the vampire will be an easy kill , and everyone in the town will hate you and spit at you for killing the guy that was murdering them, basically it's a mess.

Along with the suggestion from Sver, there's fortunately 2 more alternatives :
- never play as a demigod or hero adventurer, only play as a peasant.
The reason is that a lot less enemies will run away from you at first sight.
 
- keep 34.11 along with the current version, as you can play both without having to remove the other.
Still it's sad that despite all the new features 44.xx npc are still lacking what made the epic of 34.11 battles

We can only hope Toady will one day wants to play adventure mode and notice the problem.
 
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on November 11, 2018, 10:15:09 pm
Quote
We can only hope Toady will one day wants to play adventure mode and notice the problem.

I assume with all the extras he's put into adventurer for the next release (parties, mounts, assassins, strategic party combat, etc)  he's played at least once...
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 12, 2018, 01:55:04 pm
Quote from: Robsoie on November 11, 2018, 08:15:26 pm
Along with the suggestion from Sver, there's fortunately 2 more alternatives :
- never play as a demigod or hero adventurer, only play as a peasant.
The reason is that a lot less enemies will run away from you at first sight.
 
- keep 34.11 along with the current version, as you can play both without having to remove the other.
Still it's sad that despite all the new features 44.xx npc are still lacking what made the epic of 34.11 battles

We can only hope Toady will one day wants to play adventure mode and notice the problem.

I'm doing both. But for the naked eye it looks like i'm just playing v.34 without any hope to see magic in next DF)

Still advice of Sver works quite good. But morale still can be problem for experienced adventurer.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Robsoie on November 13, 2018, 02:18:47 pm
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller on November 11, 2018, 10:15:09 pm
I assume with all the extras he's put into adventurer for the next release (parties, mounts, assassins, strategic party combat, etc)  he's played at least once...

I really hope it will be so, i miss the "epic" i felt when i had even with simple adventures in 34.11 like that :
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=132314.msg4704807#msg4704807
That ingame just made me "feel" my character was truly a part of it

Because in 4x.xx i had an adventurer getting through a lot of the spoilery DF adventure mode "endgame" content as you can see in those adventure reports
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=51245.msg5714855#msg5714855
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=51245.msg5714508#msg5714508
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=51245.msg5715303#msg5715303
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=51245.msg5716027#msg5716027

But despite what happens is in the text rather of epic proportion, the thing is that i never really felt my character was part of that adventure, because mostly no npc really reacted on a believable manner, friends/families not caring about whatever happens to their beloved in their sight, non-undead/spoilery monsters that mostly run away from you constantly , no faction is ever sending people after you for revenge for you massacring their brethen, enemies going with "it's a pleasure to talk to you" while you just stabbed their pals ... etc...

Because in the end that's the problem to me, 34.11 had obviously much less things to do, but the npc reactions made it working so well you felt relatively immersed in it, an adventure felt epic.
4x.xx feels more like a game in which nothing matter much because the npc do not react really according to what happens, breaking the believability.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: JesterHell696 on November 14, 2018, 01:40:02 am
My issue is with the ideal behind this topic because honestly it was something that turned me off adventure mode in older versions was that everyone one seemed to be both psychic and willing to fight to the death, DF is a fantasy world simulator and the old system where attacking one guy could turn an entire town against you in a fight to the death was broken, NPC's should act according to their personality and not just attack and fight to the death because it would be a more challenging game.

Now the current system is also broken but if given the choice between broken suicidal peasants and broken coward peasants I choose the cowards, mostly because I can more readily believe that most people would try to keep themselves alive by running away and an entire town fighting to the death seems nonsensical to me.

Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
Quote from: JesterHell696 on November 14, 2018, 01:40:02 am
Now the current system is also broken but if given the choice between broken suicidal peasants and broken coward peasants I choose the cowards, mostly because I can more readily believe that most people would try to keep themselves alive by running away and an entire town fighting to the death seems nonsensical to me.

Not in medieval ages, mate. If we will read some historic books, we can understand that male villagers defended their own houses and families even versus outnumbered opponents. Village have no police, no militia, no garrison to let people walk unarmed. I agree that some villages can and should run, but - children, women and rarely seen cowards. Men should unite versus psychopath attacker. If you are attacking friend of villagers, you should predict that his friend will aid him.

And, for more realism, some domestic animals should run away or take part in fight to defend their owners.

But now it's lost adventurer mode, man. I really can not understand where are you finding fun to play it in recent versions. No fight, much useless talking, racing... Hardcore is always an option. Roguelike is a hardcore genre so it must be hardcore. To the truth, quests of killing bandits are quite easy in DF, and only assaulting goblins is interesting alongside encounters in 31 and 34, when your party can be surrounded by large and well-armed squad. And when bandits can not even defend themselves, it leave me (and not me only) completely out of feeling what's going on.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Cathar on November 14, 2018, 06:17:33 am
Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
Quote from: JesterHell696 on November 14, 2018, 01:40:02 am
Now the current system is also broken but if given the choice between broken suicidal peasants and broken coward peasants I choose the cowards, mostly because I can more readily believe that most people would try to keep themselves alive by running away and an entire town fighting to the death seems nonsensical to me.

Not in medieval ages, mate. If we will read some historic books, we can understand that male villagers defended their own houses and families even versus outnumbered opponents. Village have no police, no militia, no garrison to let people walk unarmed. I agree that some villages can and should run, but - children, women and rarely seen cowards. Men should unite versus psychopath attacker. If you are attacking friend of villagers, you should predict that his friend will aid him.

Neither is "realistic". No, peasants will never unite to fight head on a troop of professional mercenaries, because they are not dumb. However in times of ar, were you had bands of marauding bandits made of professionals without a contract, they would often hide their ressources and pretend they have nothing when bandits come and tax them. French and english mercenaries had a specific torture method ("la chauffe") to get to know where the stash is hidden, so basically the rule of the game is to keep it shut, to grind your teeth and to wait until they are gone, not to reenact 300 the movie.

In the side of the bandits, it's the same thing. Most of the time they don't want to raze the village, because they want to eat, most and foremost, and they don't want to annoy the local noble to the point he sends his own mercenaries to deal with the problem. Neither side will push the WMD button, because both understand they live in an ecosystem with de facto rules and in the end they all want to live.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 10:27:26 am
Quote from: Cathar on November 14, 2018, 06:17:33 am
Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
Quote from: JesterHell696 on November 14, 2018, 01:40:02 am
Now the current system is also broken but if given the choice between broken suicidal peasants and broken coward peasants I choose the cowards, mostly because I can more readily believe that most people would try to keep themselves alive by running away and an entire town fighting to the death seems nonsensical to me.

Not in medieval ages, mate. If we will read some historic books, we can understand that male villagers defended their own houses and families even versus outnumbered opponents. Village have no police, no militia, no garrison to let people walk unarmed. I agree that some villages can and should run, but - children, women and rarely seen cowards. Men should unite versus psychopath attacker. If you are attacking friend of villagers, you should predict that his friend will aid him.

Neither is "realistic". No, peasants will never unite to fight head on a troop of professional mercenaries, because they are not dumb. However in times of ar, were you had bands of marauding bandits made of professionals without a contract, they would often hide their ressources and pretend they have nothing when bandits come and tax them. French and english mercenaries had a specific torture method ("la chauffe") to get to know where the stash is hidden, so basically the rule of the game is to keep it shut, to grind your teeth and to wait until they are gone, not to reenact 300 the movie.

In the side of the bandits, it's the same thing. Most of the time they don't want to raze the village, because they want to eat, most and foremost, and they don't want to annoy the local noble to the point he sends his own mercenaries to deal with the problem. Neither side will push the WMD button, because both understand they live in an ecosystem with de facto rules and in the end they all want to live.

Agree, but now we're not speaking about professionals(or i was not clear enough).

Player and band of his followers are always much smaller in numbers than village 'garrison'. I often attacked villagers as single adventurer, so 'realistic' would be to unite vs such psychopath as i was.

And for bandits - they are different. Professional mercenaries is one side, another is hungry villagers from plundered site or from another reason to rise as bandits. I spoke more about attack or single player and bands of badly armed and low skilled bandits than about professionals.

P.S. Professional mercenary infantry with long polearms such as halberd was the strongest enemy of mounted knights before arriving of firearms. It would be dumb to say that voluntary village militia can stand (and will wanna stand) versus them, you're right.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Cathar on November 14, 2018, 10:37:07 am
I mean, what the game needs are professionals garissons as a WMD so to speak. Really that what it lacks. In the medieval ecosystem, it's the "painful problem solver". Villagers don't want the nobles meddling in their affairs, they don't want to see mercenaries trampling their fields, and usually the further the noble and his henchmen are, the better. They have their own justice system, for example, not to have the lord hamfisting things and hang people at random when the peasants can solve the matter themselves (as in "yeah, the blacksmith's son murdered his siblings and his mother in an access of autistic rage, the plaintiffs are dead, no need to call the men-at-arm). It works because everyone knows that if the lord is summoned, he will fuck shit up and nobody wants that.

But shall we have, let's say, a group of armed and trained adventurer murderhobos come into town and kill people for no reason and not leave, the villagers should have an option to go to the local castle and get the garrisson to their village.

But yeah I kind of don't want peasants to go all lemmings on armored troopers. That's not realistic, and certainly not epic
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: therahedwig on November 14, 2018, 11:30:18 am
Is then not the issue that npcs are not able to construe a notion of 'fight in self-defence'? Like, if you have someone come in and attack you, you'd want to at the least kick them away, ideally disarm the opponent, but keeping them occupied for a few seconds while you run the fuck away.

Though, having a chat in the middle of a fight might indicate that npcs aren't just have morale issues, but also issues with the conflict levels. And reputations. At the very least someone who is attacking you without any precedence should get the reputation of 'utter scum'.

Also, for what it is worth, the bug report about morale is requesting saves with screwy morale (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7161)?
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 02:20:00 pm
Quote from: Cathar on November 14, 2018, 10:37:07 am

But shall we have, let's say, a group of armed and trained adventurer murderhobos come into town and kill people for no reason and not leave, the villagers should have an option to go to the local castle and get the garrisson to their village.


Wonderful idea. May Toady will hear you)

But a single adventurer shouldn't be the one from which they all run before at least dozen of kills. I think so.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 02:23:13 pm
Quote from: therahedwig on November 14, 2018, 11:30:18 am
Is then not the issue that npcs are not able to construe a notion of 'fight in self-defence'? Like, if you have someone come in and attack you, you'd want to at the least kick them away, ideally disarm the opponent, but keeping them occupied for a few seconds while you run the fuck away.

Though, having a chat in the middle of a fight might indicate that npcs aren't just have morale issues, but also issues with the conflict levels. And reputations. At the very least someone who is attacking you without any precedence should get the reputation of 'utter scum'.

Also, for what it is worth, the bug report about morale is requesting saves with screwy morale (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7161)?

Yes, that's really looks like deep problem. Well, we can understand site dwellers and their coward behavior - but castle garrison, which runs from fresh peasant, looks so dumb.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Khorinis on November 14, 2018, 07:44:35 pm
Quote from: Cathar on November 02, 2018, 02:41:22 pm
That's extremely strange... I have met people who didn't want to fight, but never experienced a situation where people would just run away from me by default. I get regularly attacked by wildlife, and goblins just run at me screaming.

That's really wierd

I have the same problem as the thread creator, I can kill dozens of civilians in a human village for example and the other villagers don't care at all and do absolutely nothing. They are not even mad at me and will still join me if I ask them to join me on my adventures. Is there a way to fix this or a mod that repairs this?  :-X
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 15, 2018, 12:31:19 am
Quote from: Khorinis on November 14, 2018, 07:44:35 pm
Quote from: Cathar on November 02, 2018, 02:41:22 pm
That's extremely strange... I have met people who didn't want to fight, but never experienced a situation where people would just run away from me by default. I get regularly attacked by wildlife, and goblins just run at me screaming.

That's really wierd

I have the same problem as the thread creator, I can kill dozens of civilians in a human village for example and the other villagers don't care at all and do absolutely nothing. They are not even mad at me and will still join me if I ask them to join me on my adventures. Is there a way to fix this or a mod that repairs this?  :-X

Quote from: Sver on November 02, 2018, 03:17:07 pm
"Bravery", as in the personality token, does not seem to affect much, although, very high values are rumored to increase the chance of a civilian joining a fight, so, yeah, you can try that. The effect of the Discipline skill should be more noticeable though, I think.

If you're looking for a challenge specifically, I would recommend adding some more natural skills to your potential opponents, because the skill difference between combatants in DF is times more important than the numbers advantage. Here's what I use personally:
Spoiler: for humans and goblins (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for elves (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for kobolds (click to show/hide)
You can play with the numbers here to your liking - just take note that the value of 15 is max (Legendary). Natural skills do not affect adventurers, so you'll still have to train as usual.
Edit, for context:: 5 = Proficient; 9 = Professional; 10 = Accomplished.

You can also get some combat mod to top it off - mine (in the sig) or Grimlocke's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=146737.0), for instance. The game itself has a lot of loose ends in terms of combat, and it is yet uncertain when the development returns to it again. For now, such mods offer fixes and improvements to combat wherever possible.

This advice works quite good. Still you can meet very stupid situation, but enemies at least fight with us)
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: JesterHell696 on November 15, 2018, 05:27:03 am
Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
Not in medieval ages, mate.

In any age there are going to be a number of coward, and it should always be based upon factors like NPC personality and player rep/appearance, player has no armour and a knife? sure the villagers gang up and fight back, player has full body armour, a long sword and shield? a couple of brave should hold the line while most run for their lives.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
If we will read some historic books, we can understand that male villagers defended their own houses and families even versus outnumbered opponents. Village have no police, no militia, no garrison to let people walk unarmed. I agree that some villages can and should run, but - children, women and rarely seen cowards. Men should unite versus psychopath attacker. If you are attacking friend of villagers, you should predict that his friend will aid him.

All the time? in every situation? I have doubts about that.

I think its more likely that the stories of the "heroic" last stand where just remembered more fondly and told more often then the stories of "cowards" fleeing for their lives rather then the last stand actually being more common.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
And, for more realism, some domestic animals should run away or take part in fight to defend their owners.

Some bonded animals? sure, as some horses can be vicious when defending their herd but all the non-bonded farm animal out in the paddock? no thanks.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
But now it's lost adventurer mode, man. I really can not understand where are you finding fun to play it in recent versions. No fight, much useless talking, racing... Hardcore is always an option. Roguelike is a hardcore genre so it must be hardcore.

Because I'm not concerned with a challenge, I want to be able to play as a character in a world that seems reasonable and exists independent of player desires (once in game/post world gen), not have everyone be a brave fighter just so that there is a challenge to be had.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
To the truth, quests of killing bandits are quite easy in DF, and only assaulting goblins is interesting alongside encounters in 31 and 34, when your party can be surrounded by large and well-armed squad. And when bandits can not even defend themselves, it leave me (and not me only) completely out of feeling what's going on.

Bandits, guards, militia and other adventurers should be braver and more combat ready then peasants on average, but even then there should still be some people whom run the moment it seem like they themselves might die.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 15, 2018, 10:07:20 am
Quote from: JesterHell696 on November 15, 2018, 05:27:03 am

Every situation after Toady's look at the problem will be better than now. We can have different opinions about ideal one - your is a bit casual, mine is a bit hardcore, but both looks satisfying for me. And current situation is not.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Khorinis on November 15, 2018, 10:54:07 am
Quote from: JesterHell696 on November 15, 2018, 05:27:03 am
Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
Not in medieval ages, mate.

In any age there are going to be a number of coward, and it should always be based upon factors like NPC personality and player rep/appearance, player has no armour and a knife? sure the villagers gang up and fight back, player has full body armour, a long sword and shield? a couple of brave should hold the line while most run for their lives.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
If we will read some historic books, we can understand that male villagers defended their own houses and families even versus outnumbered opponents. Village have no police, no militia, no garrison to let people walk unarmed. I agree that some villages can and should run, but - children, women and rarely seen cowards. Men should unite versus psychopath attacker. If you are attacking friend of villagers, you should predict that his friend will aid him.

All the time? in every situation? I have doubts about that.

I think its more likely that the stories of the "heroic" last stand where just remembered more fondly and told more often then the stories of "cowards" fleeing for their lives rather then the last stand actually being more common.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
And, for more realism, some domestic animals should run away or take part in fight to defend their owners.

Some bonded animals? sure, as some horses can be vicious when defending their herd but all the non-bonded farm animal out in the paddock? no thanks.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
But now it's lost adventurer mode, man. I really can not understand where are you finding fun to play it in recent versions. No fight, much useless talking, racing... Hardcore is always an option. Roguelike is a hardcore genre so it must be hardcore.

Because I'm not concerned with a challenge, I want to be able to play as a character in a world that seems reasonable and exists independent of player desires (once in game/post world gen), not have everyone be a brave fighter just so that there is a challenge to be had.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
To the truth, quests of killing bandits are quite easy in DF, and only assaulting goblins is interesting alongside encounters in 31 and 34, when your party can be surrounded by large and well-armed squad. And when bandits can not even defend themselves, it leave me (and not me only) completely out of feeling what's going on.

Bandits, guards, militia and other adventurers should be braver and more combat ready then peasants on average, but even then there should still be some people whom run the moment it seem like they themselves might die.


I get what you mean about a moral system being more realistic but this really is not the issue here. The problem is that villagers don't react at all when you kill their mates right in front of them and even say stuff like "good to see you", let alone fight back. Maybe the old system wasn't realistic but certainly more realistic then the buggy one we got now and it was certainly a lot more engaging when you had to actually deal with consequences for killing or attacking someone.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 15, 2018, 12:22:24 pm
Quote from: Khorinis on November 15, 2018, 10:54:07 am
Quote from: JesterHell696 on November 15, 2018, 05:27:03 am
Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
Not in medieval ages, mate.

In any age there are going to be a number of coward, and it should always be based upon factors like NPC personality and player rep/appearance, player has no armour and a knife? sure the villagers gang up and fight back, player has full body armour, a long sword and shield? a couple of brave should hold the line while most run for their lives.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
If we will read some historic books, we can understand that male villagers defended their own houses and families even versus outnumbered opponents. Village have no police, no militia, no garrison to let people walk unarmed. I agree that some villages can and should run, but - children, women and rarely seen cowards. Men should unite versus psychopath attacker. If you are attacking friend of villagers, you should predict that his friend will aid him.

All the time? in every situation? I have doubts about that.

I think its more likely that the stories of the "heroic" last stand where just remembered more fondly and told more often then the stories of "cowards" fleeing for their lives rather then the last stand actually being more common.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
And, for more realism, some domestic animals should run away or take part in fight to defend their owners.

Some bonded animals? sure, as some horses can be vicious when defending their herd but all the non-bonded farm animal out in the paddock? no thanks.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
But now it's lost adventurer mode, man. I really can not understand where are you finding fun to play it in recent versions. No fight, much useless talking, racing... Hardcore is always an option. Roguelike is a hardcore genre so it must be hardcore.

Because I'm not concerned with a challenge, I want to be able to play as a character in a world that seems reasonable and exists independent of player desires (once in game/post world gen), not have everyone be a brave fighter just so that there is a challenge to be had.

Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 14, 2018, 03:49:36 am
To the truth, quests of killing bandits are quite easy in DF, and only assaulting goblins is interesting alongside encounters in 31 and 34, when your party can be surrounded by large and well-armed squad. And when bandits can not even defend themselves, it leave me (and not me only) completely out of feeling what's going on.

Bandits, guards, militia and other adventurers should be braver and more combat ready then peasants on average, but even then there should still be some people whom run the moment it seem like they themselves might die.


I get what you mean about a moral system being more realistic but this really is not the issue here. The problem is that villagers don't react at all when you kill their mates right in front of them and even say stuff like "good to see you", let alone fight back. Maybe the old system wasn't realistic but certainly more realistic then the buggy one we got now and it was certainly a lot more engaging when you had to actually deal with consequences for killing or attacking someone.

Even Grandmaster Yoda couldn't say better)
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: Robsoie on November 15, 2018, 01:31:25 pm
Yes, that's what breaks the fun of making the world believable, sure 34.11 wasn't perfect but indeed most NPC had much more believable reactions.

As said apparently since 40.xx NPC are aware of your level of skills even when you start the game (despite there's no rumour about your actions), and they compare the difference with their very low skills , meaning it is very likely playing a big role in the lack of believable reaction to being attacked (walking in a castle murdering a lord in front of everyone and no guard gives a care because your single guy have a higher skill than each guard individually, despite the bunch of guard together would just butcher you ?)

In 34.11 when you faced by example a bandit leader, you knew you were in for the fight of your life even with high skill, but since 40.xx bandit leaders are all push over. The same you don't meet anymore gobs or etc that are weapon masters.

I wonder if that apparent huge "nerf" to their skills isn't reflecting too on their followers "morale", explaining why you walk in a bandit hidden camp in complete impunity , murder each of them individually without a problem or a reaction, while it felt like a most epic adventure to enter in a bandit hideout in 34.11

Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Rumrusher on November 15, 2018, 03:59:16 pm
Probably a mix of the citizens aren't really historically known so their names aren't remembered which make any actions done to them is a minor tidbit gossip like a bar fight gone horribly wrong.
hell they don't really have families outside of a few nobles and wandering groups so any ties or relationships given from any the peasants getting slaughter isn't a pip.
so basically it seems like df has loads of layered mechanics but due to toady trying to fill out a large town with out killing folks pcs with legend mode bloat we ended up with historically null fodder peasants that shuffle around and twiddle their thumbs until they get historically known enough to care about the well being of one another.

there also a chance one could shuffle around the human town ethics and laws to make murder a serious matter and outright attack folks... or just give them the attack neutral groups ethics and just constantly be hounded and attacked when you enter the town.

my personal opinion on this is : man I am Not that bloodthirsty so advmode seem decent but the major problem I have with it is you can't just scatter peasants to different lands like the old (even older) days where at least now pillaging is kinda stuck to Fort mode until someone dfhacks it in to advmode or toady adds an option to just raze a town for adventurers.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: Robsoie on November 15, 2018, 07:54:04 pm
Another alternative is turning up everyone craziness dial in a DF world to eleven with a mini mod like this one
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152661.0

That make people (and animals too because without that it wouldn't be up to eleven) extremely "specist" and truly hate to violent death anything and anyone belonging to a different specie, regardless if they're on the same faction or if they're much more powerful than themselves.

A good way to re-enact the battle at the Cave of Caerbannog against its monstrous beast :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9aSjlyIBAk

Of course a mini mod for adventurers that seek more insanity than immersion.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 16, 2018, 01:08:14 am
Quote from: Robsoie on November 15, 2018, 07:54:04 pm
Another alternative is turning up everyone craziness dial in a DF world to eleven with a mini mod like this one
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152661.0

That make people (and animals too because without that it wouldn't be up to eleven) extremely "specist" and truly hate to violent death anything and anyone belonging to a different specie, regardless if they're on the same faction or if they're much more powerful than themselves.

A good way to re-enact the battle at the Cave of Caerbannog against its monstrous beast :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9aSjlyIBAk

Of course a mini mod for adventurers that seek more insanity than immersion.

Thanks) I am always using such MODs, especially in TES game series. That feeling of instant fight is wonderful!)

P. S. I consider this as just a substitute of complete system of in-game interactions. If we're lacking realistic fight, let's set this world in fire of endless fight.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 16, 2018, 01:23:18 am
Quote from: Rumrusher on November 15, 2018, 03:59:16 pm
Probably a mix of the citizens aren't really historically known so their names aren't remembered which make any actions done to them is a minor tidbit gossip like a bar fight gone horribly wrong.
hell they don't really have families outside of a few nobles and wandering groups so any ties or relationships given from any the peasants getting slaughter isn't a pip.
so basically it seems like df has loads of layered mechanics but due to toady trying to fill out a large town with out killing folks pcs with legend mode bloat we ended up with historically null fodder peasants that shuffle around and twiddle their thumbs until they get historically known enough to care about the well being of one another.

there also a chance one could shuffle around the human town ethics and laws to make murder a serious matter and outright attack folks... or just give them the attack neutral groups ethics and just constantly be hounded and attacked when you enter the town.

my personal opinion on this is : man I am Not that bloodthirsty so advmode seem decent but the major problem I have with it is you can't just scatter peasants to different lands like the old (even older) days where at least now pillaging is kinda stuck to Fort mode until someone dfhacks it in to advmode or toady adds an option to just raze a town for adventurers.

Probably through menu of claiming, I agree. Claiming the attempt to enslave will probably a reason to unite and rejoin in fight for helpless site dwellers.

Blood is precious. Feel this smell and join bloodbath's chorus!)
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: Rumrusher on November 16, 2018, 10:21:40 am
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder6/well-the-system-works.png)
so messing around with the human site's ethics to make everything required lead to wandering into this scene where everyone fighting each other.
like to note these humans also consume anything and anyone if they die in worldgen so loads of dead livestock then a small bout of sapient consumption if you read legends.


Code: [Select]
[ETHIC:KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:KILL_ANIMAL:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:KILL_PLANT:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:TORTURE_ANIMALS:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:TREASON:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:OATH_BREAKING:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:LYING:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:VANDALISM:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:TRESPASSING:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:THEFT:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:ASSAULT:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:SLAVERY:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_KILL:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAME_RACE:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_SAPIENT:REQUIRED]
[ETHIC:MAKE_TROPHY_ANIMAL:REQUIRED]
so far if you want a world where military folks slaughter their own peasants and towns are ransacked on start go for it.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 16, 2018, 11:08:58 am
Quote from: Rumrusher on November 16, 2018, 10:21:40 am
so far if you want a world where military folks slaughter their own peasants and towns are ransacked on start go for it.

Updated the main topic, thanks. Very interesting decision. Rude and straight... I like it)
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 16, 2018, 11:44:06 am
My experience with adventure mode in the latest release has been more-or-less a middle ground. I'd agree that there is a definite lack of immersion currently and numerous bugs that need to be addressed, but I don't find the NPCs to be completely passive robots either. Of course many of you are veterans compared to me, so whaddo I know? Maybe I just have nothing to compare the current battle system to since I started playing with 43.05. :P
 
Anyway, considering how much the next release is focusing on adventure mode I'm feeling optimistic that some of these issues might be addressed sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 16, 2018, 12:33:37 pm
Quote from: PlumpHelmetMan on November 16, 2018, 11:44:06 am
My experience with adventure mode in the latest release has been more-or-less a middle ground. I'd agree that there is a definite lack of immersion currently and numerous bugs that need to be addressed, but I don't find the NPCs to be completely passive robots either. Of course many of you are veterans compared to me, so whaddo I know? Maybe I just have nothing to compare the current battle system to since I started playing with 43.05. :P
 
Anyway, considering how much the next release is focusing on adventure mode I'm feeling optimistic that some of these issues might be addressed sooner rather than later.

NPC can speak as not a robots, and trying to move under complex algorithms, but their fight is a very small piece compared to what it was.

Just try to download last version of 34, generate small world, take quest on killing bandits and go to the camp on your map. It will take only about 5 minutes of your time to die in this fight (with downloading and worldgen ;) ) and understand, how fight must be:)
Trust me, it will be one of the hardest quests you ever chosen if you will attack bandit camp in 34 without armor and companions.

P.S. That's why we're seeking another opportunities. New AI can bring some comfort to player... But its unrealistic and casual look is alien for us.

P.P.S. Yes, we can be optimistic. And now we got (and still are getting) some pieces of code which will allow us to repair even badly moraled version through raws, even if Toady will miss this problem. For everyone's taste - from little repair to endless fight through some intermediate stages.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: PlumpHelmetMan on November 16, 2018, 12:48:02 pm
I'll check .34 out, thanks for the info. Certainly curious to see how the battle system's changed.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 17, 2018, 03:21:13 am
I've checked recent variants and updated main topic. All the ways we need variant of Sver so i marked this as Basic Way.

Summary:

Undead tags. Nice, but need to choose, which nation should take undead tags, wisely. Especially funny in Fortress mode, in adventure one fun depends on how site generator will make mixed settlements. To make not evil factions ready to fight, we need to modify them by way 4 or way 1.

Ethic. Plays with ethic allows to set started conflicts on the most lethal level, giving a bit chance for opponent to not run from you, but creatures around often don't join fight. If you got enough bad reputation (couple or dozen of kills) skilled warriors (lord guards etc) sometimes will attack you when another guys will run so we need to improve their skills to variant 1 before creating fight.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 17, 2018, 08:26:52 am
I got wonderful idea, guys.

What about making species for each nation, which is undead and have 1:2 ratio? Then cities will be really filled with fights. If these civs will dash through worldgen.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: Cathar on November 17, 2018, 08:45:28 am
You could technically make a full mod about sentient species having discovered the secret of reanimating the dead and using it for labor and warfare. That'd be pretty badass and solve your problem all in one
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on November 17, 2018, 09:08:42 am
Quote from: Cathar on November 17, 2018, 08:45:28 am
You could technically make a full mod about sentient species having discovered the secret of reanimating the dead and using it for labor and warfare. That'd be pretty badass and solve your problem all in one

Yes, i did some experiments about that. Species skilled in necromancy creates undead and they destroy everyone, even allies of summoner^)
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: JesterHell696 on November 24, 2018, 07:10:29 am
Quote from: High_priest_of_Ru on November 15, 2018, 10:07:20 am
Every situation after Toady's look at the problem will be better than now. We can have different opinions about ideal one - your is a bit casual, mine is a bit hardcore, but both looks satisfying for me. And current situation is not.

I don't see myself as casual gamer but as a hardcore simulationist (GNS Theory), as a simulationist I prioritise the integrity of the simulation over "arcadey" challenges but I would still enjoy DF having challenges and I would love for the game to respond to my characters action to the point that if I go around slaughtering whole villagers that they eventually send the army after me, at first a squad or two but up to hundred's of men if my reputation/threat warrants it.

I'm fine with the game giving me an outright/literally unwinnable scenario if that scenario emerges from the games simulation but would hate such a scenario as "just" a survive as long as you can DF Hardcore/Rouge-like challenge mode thing, players can already set that up with modding and world gen options without altering the background simulation at all.

I see you as a hardcore gamist (GNS Theory), you seem too (IMHO) view DF's simulationist nature as a means to and ends (challenging gameplay) I see the simulation as the ends in and of itself, plus I really want to be able to play as just a farmer, building my house, raising my live stock... basically star dew valley but with more simulation and the chance to be eaten by wolves or a dragon, or as a human blacksmith who searching for the secret of dwarven steel, a combat oriented adventure is the least interesting long term possibility IMHO.


Note: I think Toady One is approaching DF from a Narrativist perspective given his focus on allowing engaging stories.


Quote from: Khorinis on November 15, 2018, 10:54:07 am
I get what you mean about a moral system being more realistic but this really is not the issue here. The problem is that villagers don't react at all when you kill their mates right in front of them and even say stuff like "good to see you", let alone fight back. Maybe the old system wasn't realistic but certainly more realistic then the buggy one we got now and it was certainly a lot more engaging when you had to actually deal with consequences for killing or attacking someone.

I agree that the current situation is not ideal but I see it as a stepping stone on the road too the future and I would rather tolerate what is the new normal then regress back to what was just so that combat  in/with villages is more engaging, I definitely think this is something to be fixed before the next big wait.

I would suggest that Toady use the artefact hunters ability to track the player and the new villain groups together so that they can work as a reaction to the player, the "villainous" plot is to kill the PC and involves convincing the king/law maker that the PC is a threat worthy of dispatching the army, at which point the army tracks the player and now you have to deal with a hundred soldiers hunting you down as a consequence of going on a murder spree, I think this would be a lot better quick fix then simply reinstating the previous system.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: sketchesofpayne on November 25, 2018, 04:25:26 am
'Travelers' I come across are more likely to attack me or fight back.  Sometimes they will be passive unless you follow them for a while.  Animals are still willing to fight most of the time.

I went on a massacre to test some things.  The inhabitants of the hillock I was in reacted in proportion to the importance of the person I killed.

Killed several peasants/workers and got little reaction (verbal fear but no physical response).
Killed an administrator and a few ran away and one attacked me.
Killed the mayor and more ran away and a couple came running and attacked me.
Killed the baroness consort and the whole crowd around me ran and several came running to attack me.

Often some people would spit at me but wouldn't attack me until I tried to move through their tile.

Does anyone know what it takes to become an 'enemy' of a site or civilization?  I usually play lawful adventurers so I've never had it happen.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: Cathar on November 25, 2018, 07:50:02 am
Quote from: JesterHell696 on November 24, 2018, 07:10:29 am
Note: I think Toady One is approaching DF from a Narrativist perspective given his focus on allowing engaging stories.

Yes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-7TtPX5uhg)
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: Rumrusher on November 25, 2018, 08:46:55 am
hmm accidentally took too long to identifying my character and ended up being swarmed by merchants pulling out knives and claim my character is an intruder.
it seems the system works if you make everyone have an murder neutral and civilians an enemies ethics. I think I saw a guard person asking for identification for a kobold near the temples.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on December 14, 2018, 10:49:54 am
Quote from: JesterHell696 on November 24, 2018, 07:10:29 am
I would suggest that Toady use the artefact hunters ability to track the player and the new villain groups together so that they can work as a reaction to the player, the "villainous" plot is to kill the PC and involves convincing the king/law maker that the PC is a threat worthy of dispatching the army, at which point the army tracks the player and now you have to deal with a hundred soldiers hunting you down as a consequence of going on a murder spree, I think this would be a lot better quick fix then simply reinstating the previous system.

I'll get you some piece of magic, mate.

This looks like 0.31 version had situation when the player with enough good reputation awakens when surrounded by squad of well armored creatures. Pushhhh!

This WERE the same way you awaits in distant future. And now it's not. I can't even imagine, what you're doing in adventure mode right now. There is no tasks to perform. Building home and growing plant? I can buy cannabis seeds and growing tools to enjoy this experience.

P.S. To the truth, i know, what people do. They are hunting and making angel/demon charges. I mean, people interact with THOSE creatures, which were not changed by last updates.
Title: Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.
Post by: High_priest_of_Ru on December 14, 2018, 10:52:44 am
Quote from: sketchesofpayne on November 25, 2018, 04:25:26 am
Does anyone know what it takes to become an 'enemy' of a site or civilization?  I usually play lawful adventurers so I've never had it happen.

It takes looking at the top post and made what is inscribed there and then do punishable actions.))) Because real battle in impossible with current morale.