Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Trolldefender99 on February 25, 2019, 08:27:54 pm

Title: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Trolldefender99 on February 25, 2019, 08:27:54 pm
So, activision laid off 100s of employees for cost saving measures (despite them having an INCREASE in yearly revenue)

https://kotaku.com/activision-blizzard-begins-massive-layoffs-1832571288

Now Arenanet (makers of Guild Wars 1 and 2) laid off over 100 employees, some which are senior developers that got laid off

https://massivelyop.com/2019/02/25/guild-wars-2s-layoffs-has-begun-as-arenanet-devs-tweet-their-departures-and-fans-express-loveforarenanet/

Not looking like a good year for game companies, starting off bad in 2019. But even if they are making money (like activision), they are still mass firing people.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: nenjin on February 25, 2019, 08:56:55 pm
Arenanet is, I think, a slightly different case. They've been doing games as a service for a while, and their products are old as balls comparatively speaking. Even WoW is experiencing a declining player base and earnings. GW and WoW are kind of the last of the major full service MMOs out there. (Man I remember when GW2 was billed as a "lite MMO.") So when I read Arenanet started letting people go, the only thing that surprised me was that it took this long.

The rest though is typical AAA publisher bullshit though. Have developers make you a game, so you can report earnings to investors, then fire said developers, so you can pad out those quarterly earnings by another mil or so (on top of the cool couple billion they earn in MTX in a year.) Remember, these are the people who think $500 million in a couple weeks is a disappointing return.

It's like they expect to shove out a half baked, bland content-ridden piece of shit to capitalize on market trends, and that players will just fire money immediately at them for MTX when their fucking games are barely playable for the first two weeks. "What? Players aren't buying $20 skins and/or loot crates because they can't connect to our servers or got bored before they even finished the campaign? What a disappointment."

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Anthem is the last nail in Bioware's coffin. With the current climate of things, I'm not sure all the Mass Effect 1, 2 and maybe 3 goodwill and a possible 'nother installment of Dragon Age can save them from the EA chopping block.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrWiggles on February 25, 2019, 09:08:14 pm
Its disenginious to talk about the Activision Blizzard layoff without also adding they didnt meet their yearly projection and their stock price, like all video game produces and developers have taken a major loss. Except for Epic and after Apex, EA has recovered a bit. So even though Activision did in a way make a good deal of money, they lost money overall. There is also the fact tht Activision just lost Destiny. Blizzard just shut down its HOTS pro league. Its major franchises have been doing worse year to year. It doesnt have anything new lined up in the next few years.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: nenjin on February 25, 2019, 09:24:11 pm
Yeah but profit expectations have been driven through the roof because of MTX. Literally billions of dollars a year, and valuation shooting up to the stars in just a few years because of it. It's an unsustainable level of growth, and the games have gotten quicker and shallower to try and keep up with that perceived demand.  And so players look at what's being offered and decide they don't want it. So these MTX vehicles undersell then under-deliver because no one is playing it and pumping their dollars in to MTX.

It had to come crashing down, and as usual, it's the workers who can't unionize who pay the ultimate price. Meanwhile executives get 8 figure hiring bonuses and stock options even when they're underperforming on the system they built.

Shit is broke.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrWiggles on February 25, 2019, 10:49:29 pm
Activision mostly let go adminstrative and manager positions. Its doubling down on devolopers and hiring ore of them this year. And yea, Activision valuation was based on an infalated base and this is the year that it was correct. Activision was bigger then it should have been. Its shit that folks lost their jobs. But its not as simple, 'They made a lot of money and shitcan folks'. Its not the full story.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 25, 2019, 10:52:53 pm
we live in a society quarterly profit margin
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrWiggles on February 25, 2019, 10:53:58 pm
https://kotaku.com/facing-financial-pressures-gog-quietly-lays-off-at-lea-1832879826
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Trolldefender99 on February 25, 2019, 11:01:40 pm
https://kotaku.com/facing-financial-pressures-gog-quietly-lays-off-at-lea-1832879826

Yeah I saw that one, and thought of posting it as well. But, its kinda not the same to me. I saw it on reddit and people were making a big deal of it, but then one comment pointed out...

"they said. “We have been rearranging certain teams since October 2018, effecting in closing around a dozen of positions last week. At the same time, since the process started we have welcomed nearly twice as many new team members, and currently hold 20 open positions.”"

So while people were fired which is terrible, they also hired more people than they actually fired. Sucks for people who were fired though. I'm not sure why they fired the people they did. But as of now, they didn't reveal if it was temporary positions, unneeded positions or what. Or if the people even knew about it that were let go. But if it was about money, its strange they'd hire MORE people than they actually let go.

(edit:

Then again, they might have hired cheaper employees to save on money costs, if GOG is indeed having issues. So that be the one thing if they hired a bunch of cheaper employees and fired the more expensive one

My take since apparently their Gwent card game isn't a success, it could have been those that were working on Gwent.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: George_Chickens on February 25, 2019, 11:11:14 pm
we live in a society quarterly profit margin
Bottom profit margin
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 25, 2019, 11:18:55 pm
Its disenginious to talk about the Activision Blizzard layoff without also adding they didnt meet their yearly projection and their stock price, like all video game produces and developers have taken a major loss. Except for Epic and after Apex, EA has recovered a bit. So even though Activision did in a way make a good deal of money, they lost money overall. There is also the fact tht Activision just lost Destiny. Blizzard just shut down its HOTS pro league. Its major franchises have been doing worse year to year. It doesnt have anything new lined up in the next few years.

But A/B had record sales for 2018. (https://www.polygon.com/2019/2/12/18222096/blizzard-layoffs-february-2019)  If they make more revenue than ever before and yet turn around and say they didn't exceed expectations, the expectations are what's wrong, not the company's performance.  Employees literally never done better but they get punished anyway.

I think that's ultimatly the real issue here, not just games but a lot of the economy these days.  Investors who know nothing of the industries they invest in constantly demand a cancerous level of unending growth.  So companies have to weasel out every corner they can cut.  Less quality, less labor, less morale.

Like, you could make the perfect video game and sell a copy to every living man on earth.  Then tomorrow get an email from your investors asking when Perfect 2 is gonna hit the market and sell two copies to every living man on earth, because to hell with realism my bank account is my high score.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrWiggles on February 25, 2019, 11:54:55 pm
It had record sales, but it also lost more value in stock price. Revnue while important isnt the only thing that matters. Their lack of new games, the lagging proformance of their current franchises also matter.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 26, 2019, 12:08:04 am
It had record sales, but it also lost more value in stock price. Revnue while important isnt the only thing that matters. Their lack of new games, the lagging proformance of their current franchises also matter.

But stocks are more derived from 'expectations' salespeople than actual reality.  Their stock wouldn't be shit if they weren't forced to drum up hype for sales expectations no one could possibly meet.

Not to mention they just happened to have 15 mil lying around to donate to their latest executive.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Reelya on February 26, 2019, 01:03:48 am

Not to mention they just happened to have 15 mil lying around to donate to their latest executive.

No they didn't. Stock options, mate. Any time anyone says this you can pretty much guarantee the bulk of that wasn't in fact in cash, but shares. Most of the thing was shares, and most of the rest was in bonuses, not base pay. They pay the guys they hire as CEOs so much because they're worth it. If they could get the same results from a guy on a $50000 wage, they would just do that. but of course they don't because even slightly mismanaging a company of that scale loses billions of dollars, so they hire the best people going for that, and that costs money - his total pay packet including shares comes to just 0.05% of the company's $30 billion value, so even if he gains the company on average 0.06% extra value, he is actually worth more than his paycheck.

It's as accurate to say they had that "lying around" and they could have "saved" the money by not paying him any bonuses as it was when Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said that because she scared Amazon away from New York (losing the city an estimated $27 billion in tax revenue) the city of New York "saved" $3 billion in tax credits that could then be spent on teachers and hospitals.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Rolan7 on February 26, 2019, 01:44:16 am
Why does it matter that it was in shares?  I know stock options are a bit more complicated than a bag of cash with a giant $$$ on it, but it's not free for the company.  They're still transferring all that value to him.  Maybe he's *worth* a $15 million bonus during layoffs, but that's a different argument.

And welcoming businesses like Amazon into your marketplace does have effects other than pure tax revenue.  Think Wal-Mart ruining local businesses.  In that cost-benefit analysis, the tax incentive Amazon expected is a perfectly relevant point.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Reelya on February 26, 2019, 01:51:10 am
Why does it matter that it was in shares?  I know stock options are a bit more complicated than a bag of cash with a giant $$$ on it, but it's not free for the company.  They're still transferring all that value to him.  Maybe he's *worth* a $15 million bonus during layoffs, but that's a different argument.

And welcoming businesses like Amazon into your marketplace does have effects other than pure tax revenue.  Think Wal-Mart ruining local businesses.  In that cost-benefit analysis, the tax incentive Amazon expected is a perfectly relevant point.

it is a transfer of value - but from the other shareholders and not the company. Those are entirely different things.

Say I own a company that makes $1 million in profit per year. I hire you to help run it, and give you 50% of the shares. From now on, you get $500K of the profit, and I get $500K of the profit. The "company" wasn't out a single cent. And if the other shareholders are giving away part of their stake in the company, then you can bet it's going to be to someone who's going to grow the company by more than the value that they gave away.

They do this precisely so that they can hire a better CEO than the company could afford if they had to pay that in wages: which would reduce profits and therefore company value anyway. So, instead of paying him out of company profits, the shareholders pay the guy by giving up some of their ownership.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrWiggles on February 26, 2019, 02:43:53 am
As in, they couldnt even if they wanted to use that money to retain the workforce they let go. Also, the workforce letgo was managers, and adminstrators. Which probably means that 15m in cash wouldnt be enough to secure all those positions. Assuming all those positions still exist, when they dont have to support Destying.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Iduno on February 26, 2019, 01:12:28 pm
Yeah but profit expectations have been driven through the roof because of MTX. Literally billions of dollars a year, and valuation shooting up to the stars in just a few years because of it. It's an unsustainable level of growth, and the games have gotten quicker and shallower to try and keep up with that perceived demand.  And so players look at what's being offered and decide they don't want it. So these MTX vehicles undersell then under-deliver because no one is playing it and pumping their dollars in to MTX.

It had to come crashing down, and as usual, it's the workers who can't unionize who pay the ultimate price. Meanwhile executives get 8 figure hiring bonuses and stock options even when they're underperforming on the system they built.

Shit is broke.

Try my new game: Guillotine Builder.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Trolldefender99 on February 26, 2019, 03:17:09 pm
https://kotaku.com/facing-financial-pressures-gog-quietly-lays-off-at-lea-1832879826

It looks like the situation at GOG is worse than I thought

https://www.pcgamer.com/gog-is-ending-its-fair-price-package-so-it-can-give-devs-a-larger-cut/

For them to do that, I imagine means they are in pretty dire straits.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Kagus on February 27, 2019, 05:10:58 am
Thanks, Obama Epic.


I mean, on the flip side, devs are at least getting a larger share of the proceeds. But it's still sad to see that program go.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Reelya on February 27, 2019, 06:21:38 am
However, we need to take into account the fact that pricing is dynamic, not static.

If GOG takes a smaller cut, then devs will find it more profitable to drop their prices, since there is elastic demand for games and competition among games. The equilibrium pricing point will therefore be lower if platforms take a smaller percentage, and more total units will be sold. This will (partially) offset GOG's lost revenue, since they'll end up selling more total games.

As for the fair-price mechanism, that was subsidizing some regional player's purchases at the expense of making the overall game's base price higher. Removing the subsidy and handing that money back to the devs should have an overall downward pressure on the price of affected games.

There's really no reason to think Epic's low 12% platform fee is going to destroy the digital download market any more than the frequent insanely discounted sales and Humble Bundle already are. We live in the age of market disruptors. The services like Steam and GOG were disruptors themselves of bricks-and-mortar businesses, who have lost big. Think of all the lost retail jobs due to services such as GOG, not just the lost GOG jobs. Sure, GOG sells different games to retail game stores, however all games stores are competing for the limited time and attention of players. Sure, GOG is great, but it got where it is by being on the side of disrupting previously existing jobs. We can't really whine about another even lower-cost store coming along and challenging Steam and GOG.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrRoboto75 on February 27, 2019, 12:16:25 pm
its cheaper but is it better
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: wierd on February 27, 2019, 12:43:09 pm
Indeed. I am willing to pay extra for the "Never DRM" nature of the offering. 

DRM technologies are buggy, are notorious for doing very bad things to computers they touch, are very difficult to remove once they infest, they break single player gameplay with absurd demands for online verification 100% of the time, and a whole host of other bads.

A little extra on the price is well worth not dealing with that.  If the market is going to try and push in a "Look! It's cheaper! [but with assloads of DRM!]" direction, that's what promotes piracy. (because the pirate offer is a superior offering, at the superior price of free.)

With any market intersection, there is a finite number of ideal pricepoints for offers, and currently I think GOG hits very close to that.  The issue is that many buyers do not consider the bads involved with lower prices. (as seen by all the Freemium and Pay to Win shit out there.)


Cheaper may not mean better, and at this point, I am very skeptical that the new offering will be as steadfast in the "Never DRM" stance as GoG.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrWiggles on March 01, 2019, 06:50:51 am
I'm pretty sure, its more simple then this. gog is popular, so when they let go poeple its sad. Activision is hated, so whatever they do is bad. Like Steam. Steam hasnt really gotten worse. Its just gotten less popular. So now its fine, to call out steam and Valve for its shit.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Bumber on March 01, 2019, 04:24:13 pm
I'm pretty sure, its more simple then this. gog is popular, so when they let go poeple its sad. Activision is hated, so whatever they do is bad. Like Steam. Steam hasnt really gotten worse. Its just gotten less popular. So now its fine, to call out steam and Valve for its shit.
But what determines popularity, if not their decisions?
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Reelya on March 01, 2019, 09:59:29 pm
Well, everyone is hating on the Epic Store apparently mainly because they're competition for the stores they like. That reeks more of the type of tribalism that defines these sorts of commercial "rivalries" than it does for any specific decision or difference that the stores are doing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As for the whole MTX debacle, that wasn't really something that the big 3-4 publishers had much choice about. They're in an AAA arms-race with each other. Games gotta look good to get sold. Additionally, many of the big games where we're complaining about MTX are now hybrid-type games which are high-budget PC games, but with after-market online play support.

Developing a game is one cost, and the box price should cover that. However, it's not fair on people who just want to play the game single-player or on a LAN, or self-hosted, to have to cover server-costs for people who want to play the game online with the ease of the company's game-matching system. The people who want that experience of online play should pay for it via a separate cost to the base development. People like me, who buy action games only for the campaign/story, and have no interest in online PvP play should have to subsidize the server-time of other people. The choice is either optional MTX, or a subscription. Cramming a one-size-fits-all "server costs fee" into the box price isn't a good or fair option.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 01, 2019, 10:36:52 pm
Well, everyone is hating on the Epic Store apparently mainly because they're competition for the stores they like. That reeks more of the type of tribalism that defines these sorts of commercial "rivalries" than it does for any specific decision or difference that the stores are doing.

Epic is giving away a ton of free games and they're dropping the cut the store takes, which developers are obviously going to be happy with. Which would almost certainly be seen as positive things if they were announced by stores people already had a connection with. Steam gets bashed for being greedy and evil because they take a too-high cut. Now, a rival store does the exact opposite, and people are online calling them greedy and evil for doing that.

No one wants 8 storefronts on their computer because A B C and D are exclusive to stores W X Y and Z.  Its another program that takes up hard drive space, runs in the background on your RAM, takes up bandwidth for its own automated updates, yada yada yada.  Its a waste of time for no benefit to the customer at all.  My comp used to have just one storefront.  It was called my bookshelf full of CDs.

Furthermore that drop in cut, customers will never see that, only the developers.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Reelya on March 01, 2019, 10:43:28 pm
If there are enough digital stores then perhaps we can eventually have a manager program that interfaces with multiple stores. That would give smaller publisher-owned storefronts a chance to get a foot in the door. I have some purchases which were directly from the game developer's site so it would be nice if I could have a game-manager that recognized that and stored my keys for me, but also recognized my GOG collection and Steam collection.

The solution is not to disallow competing online stores, it's to break the (entirely unnecessary) connection between Steam the online store, and Steam the all-engrossing downloaded app. Steam won't have any incentive to do that: we need rival stores to drive the consumer to want that. One way it would be possible to get what I'm talking about is if a few smaller stores got together and created an open standard for talking between the stores and an app. e.g. if there was an app that allowed you to get stuff from both GOG and Itch.io, that would be a great start. Grow that enough, and Steam might eventually be forced, reluctantly, to come on board, too.

The argument you've given about centralizing could also be used to justify using Facebook as your Auth for literally everything, too.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: itisnotlogical on March 01, 2019, 11:07:09 pm
If Steam is the only place to buy your games from...

1. If Steam wants to screw over developers in any way they totally can, and devs can't do anything because there's no other stores.

2. If Steam wants to screw over customers in any way they totally can, and you can't do anything because there's no other stores.

Just because they haven't done these things yet doesn't mean they won't, and when (not if) they do these things, would you prefer there be no competition or alternatives? If the tiny performance hit from having another storefront in the background is really your only reason for not liking the idea, just kill the program when you're done with it like any sane person does with any other program.

Besides, with Steam having no competition there's no reason for Steam to ever upgrade or get better or do anything besides exist and absorb the near-100% market share it's been enjoying for decades now.


My comp used to have just one storefront.  It was called my bookshelf full of CDs.

And where did those CDs come from? Unless you pirated everything and then for some reason burned it, chances are you didn't buy them all from one brick-and-mortar store. If store A didn't have a game, I would to go store B, C, etc. until I found it. That's how a free market works, sans monopolies like Steam.

Furthermore that drop in cut, customers will never see that, only the developers.

And developers actually earning money = bad? Not every developer is EA or Blizzard or Epic, most indie studios live or die with every game they put out.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 01, 2019, 11:49:07 pm
There still isn't an alternative.  The game's exclusive to one store anyway.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Reelya on March 02, 2019, 01:10:11 am
"OMG I can't have every game that literally ever existed unless I have accounts at more stores" is really a pretty poor complaint compared to "there's only one store to shop at, period".

Virtually everything is "Steam exclusive" already, so I think that argument is weak that if other stores exist, they'll get "exclusives" too, so people who only want to use Steam will be butthurt, so we shouldn't encourage there to be more shops. Cry me a river.

Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Jopax on March 02, 2019, 07:14:19 am
I never really got the whole "running in the background" thing, do you just run all the launchers at start-up and leave them running? Why, just fire them up when you want to play a specific game and shut it off when you're done.

Also some of the hate Epic gets is a bit deserved imo. They kinda poached certain titles (the whole Metro mess) thus forcing people to use an inferior platform (and right now it is vastly inferior to all the others, despite any issues they might have). Imo, the correct approach would've been to entice folks with a better deal or some perks, you build customer goodwill with carrots, not sticks.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrWiggles on March 02, 2019, 07:18:16 am
You build customers with content. How Metro parent company handle it exit of Steam, was their own fault not Epic. I very much doubt Epic was like, 'So, make sure when you're leaving Steam to shit the bed really good. If you dont do that, then this deal is a no go. Its gotta be handled just super bad. Or no deal. Now dont go overboard, dont go NordicTHQ bad.'
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: wierd on March 02, 2019, 07:37:11 am
I never really got the whole "running in the background" thing, do you just run all the launchers at start-up and leave them running? Why, just fire them up when you want to play a specific game and shut it off when you're done.

Also some of the hate Epic gets is a bit deserved imo. They kinda poached certain titles (the whole Metro mess) thus forcing people to use an inferior platform (and right now it is vastly inferior to all the others, despite any issues they might have). Imo, the correct approach would've been to entice folks with a better deal or some perks, you build customer goodwill with carrots, not sticks.

Take for instance, the blizzard store/launcher.

You CANNOT launch any game obtained through that horrendous bit of unholy software without it being open, and it bitches mightily if it cannot communicate with the mothership.  This is one of those always-on things I mentioned earlier that I am willing to pay extra to avoid forever, and which makes pirate offers superior ones.

Steam is the same way.

Now, Say for a moment you sit down from having a horribly shitty day at work dealing with horribly shitty people, and your patience is already negative.  You just want to grab your control method of choice, and blow some shit up.

But no. You have to open the god-damn store app, wait for it to load all its bullshit internet widgets (or in the case of STEAM, Download and install *YET ANOTHER* 200+ MB update and then install it) THEN load your game.  You have to keep track of which damned store goes with what game, when it COULD be as simple as "Pick from start menu-- DONE!" like it USED to be back in the glory days of PC gaming.  Then there is also the issue of "OH, OUR STORE IS SO FUCKING AWESOME, WE *KNOW* you *WANT* it to autostart every time you start your computer! Howe ELSE will you get all that "Friend and contact" integration!?" (like STEAM, and blizzard stores do). Fuck that. FUck it with treble hooks on a gaffing stick.

This is the thing. At least for me anyway.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Jopax on March 02, 2019, 08:05:04 am
You do realise you can turn off the launch-on-startup thing, right?

As for the rest, stick to GoG if you don't need any of the extra stuff most launchers offer these days, won't get a number of new releases that way, but most of them are integrated with such stuff anyways :S
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: scourge728 on March 02, 2019, 11:33:08 am
Either I'm not receiving these updates steam supposedly has, or they are going so fast I'm just not noticing them happen
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: itisnotlogical on March 02, 2019, 11:37:54 am
The majority of updates to anything on any hardware I own happen in the background while I'm at work. The only time I've noticed an update in the past several months is when my Internet was briefly off, interrupting any updates in progress.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: wierd on March 02, 2019, 12:01:42 pm
Suppose the following:

You have shit-unstable internet because you live in the USA. (I would normally say BFE here, but let's face it, the ISP bullshit in the USA is endemic everywhere, especially in dense urban settings. See also, how shit bad comcast cable is in a place like san Francisco.) Because of this, your modem/router loses the channel and drops off until you physically reboot it. (because the channel is grossly oversubscribed, and people hog the thing during the day, making you drop off)

In addition to the above, you also dont like having services running that you dont need running, because doing so increases the power consumption of the system at nominal "idle", and you aren't made of freaking money.  To add to that, you use several different store fronts, and *ALL* of them want to run at the same damn time, because none of them want to compromise on their vision of being your ONE AND ONLY online game community platform, and they dont want to work together *AT ALL*, so you disable the "start at startup" bullshit, and only start one when you want to play a game from one.

It takes you awhile to come back to a title that is hosted by a different store, because you have to lose interest in the one you are currently enamored with.

And now---

We come to the situation I opened with above---  You are bitchy, angry, and in dire need of de-stressing.  You *JUST* want to blow some shit up.

You turn on your computer; The internet is broken-- A --FUCKING -GAIN .  You go downstairs, reboot the modem, wait for signal to be restored.  you go back upstairs. You are now even more angry than before.

You start steam.  It's been awhile since you played a steam game; Say you have been clobbering starcraft II again for a nostalgia kick, but now you want some FPS action.  You've spent the past week or so using the blizzard launcher, and kept steam off.

"OH! We updated our client *AGAIN* for no fucking reason! You cant play your FPS title without online verification, because you could be a FILTHY PIRATE--- And we cant let you do that on an OUTDATED CLIENT now CAN WE!? OH NO NO NO!!  200mb download or no games for you! What!? Start in OFFLINE mode? BUT I DETECT INTERNET! HERESY!"

Your eye twitches a little as you notice the boring steam update window progress...
(https://i.imgur.com/PBqK3pL.png)

Again, you have shit internet, and or-- the steam back-end is being raped by something or maybe you pissed of jesus-- who knows. But that 200mb download takes AGES...  Then it finally installs.  You decide that you need to get a sandwich or something while you wait.

Finally it finishes, and you start your game... NOPE! GAME UPDATE!  You can't play an outdated patch-level! YOU HEATHEN, HOW COULD YOU!? 500mb to 1gb download! GO SUCK IT.


enraged, you throw the keyboard angry german kid style, and just turn on your xbox.

"A CONSOLE UPDATE IS AVAILABLE! Do you want to install it now?"

FUCK NO.

You pop in a game disc.

"A title update is available! Do you want to update now!?"

NO. JUST NO. NO UPDATES. SHOOTY.. **NAAOOW**

Game starts.

Finally, you shoot some things. You do this for awhile, until you once again remember why you prefer PC games, and that is that you get to use mods and have more freedom; you come back to your PC, and notice it has *FINALLY* updated its shit.  Steam pops up its "news" page which is really just a bunch of adverts.  You close it.

You look at the clock.  you realize you really dont have any more time to play tonight because you have to work with shit people being shitty AGAIN early tomorrow.

You curse the always online world for its dickery one more time, and swear fatwa against whoever it was who decided this was a perfectly good idea for everything game related, then go to bed.



Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 02, 2019, 01:01:08 pm
Its worse on PS4.  Not only do you need to update the console and the games, but every game needs to be installed PC-style.  The hard drive can hold maybe 5 games, and installation can take an hour for one game.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Bumber on March 02, 2019, 07:29:11 pm
You turn on your computer; The internet is broken-- A --FUCKING -GAIN .  You go downstairs, reboot the modem, wait for signal to be restored.

[...]

What!? Start in OFFLINE mode? BUT I DETECT INTERNET! HERESY!"
Hmm... I feel there might be a simple solution here.

I mean, at least Steam has an offline mode. Avoiding the terrible DRM of the era was one of Steam's main selling points.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Kagus on March 03, 2019, 06:17:55 am
Durr? (https://www.pcgamesinsider.biz/job-news/68624/activision-blizzard-says-job-cuts-could-have-possible-negative-impact-on-financial-performance/)
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on March 03, 2019, 02:45:59 pm
Steam is easy as hell to use and incredibly convenient without being intrusive. Honestly, I do not understand how people have so much trouble with it. It had SOME problems back in what? 2009??? A decade later I much prefer using Steam to anything else, including going buying games at Best Buy or Gamestop.

Also for the record there are multiple ways to avoid updating games on Steam. You could revert to earlier patches or simply turn off wi-fi for a bit.

EDIT: and imo, if a 200mb update takes you all night that's not Steam's fault.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: thompson on March 03, 2019, 05:06:41 pm
Suppose the following:

You have shit-unstable internet because you live in the USA. (I would normally say BFE here, but let's face it, the ISP bullshit in the USA is endemic everywhere, especially in dense urban settings. See also, how shit bad comcast cable is in a place like san Francisco.) Because of this, your modem/router loses the channel and drops off until you physically reboot it. (because the channel is grossly oversubscribed, and people hog the thing during the day, making you drop off)

In addition to the above, you also dont like having services running that you dont need running, because doing so increases the power consumption of the system at nominal "idle", and you aren't made of freaking money.  To add to that, you use several different store fronts, and *ALL* of them want to run at the same damn time, because none of them want to compromise on their vision of being your ONE AND ONLY online game community platform, and they dont want to work together *AT ALL*, so you disable the "start at startup" bullshit, and only start one when you want to play a game from one.

It takes you awhile to come back to a title that is hosted by a different store, because you have to lose interest in the one you are currently enamored with.

And now---

We come to the situation I opened with above---  You are bitchy, angry, and in dire need of de-stressing.  You *JUST* want to blow some shit up.

You turn on your computer; The internet is broken-- A --FUCKING -GAIN .  You go downstairs, reboot the modem, wait for signal to be restored.  you go back upstairs. You are now even more angry than before.

You start steam.  It's been awhile since you played a steam game; Say you have been clobbering starcraft II again for a nostalgia kick, but now you want some FPS action.  You've spent the past week or so using the blizzard launcher, and kept steam off.

"OH! We updated our client *AGAIN* for no fucking reason! You cant play your FPS title without online verification, because you could be a FILTHY PIRATE--- And we cant let you do that on an OUTDATED CLIENT now CAN WE!? OH NO NO NO!!  200mb download or no games for you! What!? Start in OFFLINE mode? BUT I DETECT INTERNET! HERESY!"

Your eye twitches a little as you notice the boring steam update window progress...
(https://i.imgur.com/PBqK3pL.png)

Again, you have shit internet, and or-- the steam back-end is being raped by something or maybe you pissed of jesus-- who knows. But that 200mb download takes AGES...  Then it finally installs.  You decide that you need to get a sandwich or something while you wait.

Finally it finishes, and you start your game... NOPE! GAME UPDATE!  You can't play an outdated patch-level! YOU HEATHEN, HOW COULD YOU!? 500mb to 1gb download! GO SUCK IT.


enraged, you throw the keyboard angry german kid style, and just turn on your xbox.

"A CONSOLE UPDATE IS AVAILABLE! Do you want to install it now?"

FUCK NO.

You pop in a game disc.

"A title update is available! Do you want to update now!?"

NO. JUST NO. NO UPDATES. SHOOTY.. **NAAOOW**

Game starts.

Finally, you shoot some things. You do this for awhile, until you once again remember why you prefer PC games, and that is that you get to use mods and have more freedom; you come back to your PC, and notice it has *FINALLY* updated its shit.  Steam pops up its "news" page which is really just a bunch of adverts.  You close it.

You look at the clock.  you realize you really dont have any more time to play tonight because you have to work with shit people being shitty AGAIN early tomorrow.

You curse the always online world for its dickery one more time, and swear fatwa against whoever it was who decided this was a perfectly good idea for everything game related, then go to bed.

You silly, silly man. I always set steam to automatically run in offline mode. If I want it to go online I explicitly tell it to. No downloads that way.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrWiggles on March 04, 2019, 06:37:35 am
Also the fualt of your shit internet isn't the fualt of digital stores or updates. Your complaining about free after purchase support.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: wierd on March 04, 2019, 06:53:08 am
The POLITE way to handle it:

"Do you want to update? Y/N"

Rather than "OMG! A patch level behind! AUTOPATCH NAAOOW!"

along with "You know, it's only been A WEEK since we updated the client. Let's not roll out a new client quite so fast, M'kay?"  Realy, you do not need to update the client to sell some new feature of the webstore. that is done with the web backend, not necessarily the client.  They really should try to minimize disruption through bullshit updates with paper-thin reasons for being pushed. "We mispelled a word!! Gotta push a 200mb download!" is bullshit yo. You can do that with a 12k patch program, if you absolutely MUST fix it.


The real issue here, is that the service provider here is not considering the user base's actual needs, or that they have finite time.  (https://www.midiaresearch.com/blog/major-games-publishers-are-feeling-the-impact-of-peaking-attention/) Forcing people to NOT PLAY when they want to, by mandating updates for spurious and obtuse reasons, is contributing to how they are going out of business now, because people cannot magic more time out of nothing to play their games.

People play video games for two basic reasons:  Enjoyment (which would include social interaction things), and stress relief/catharsis.  For the latter category, horking another 2gb download because you added a temporary holiday whizzbang that is totally optional and meaningless to single player play-- is toxic as fuck.

These annoyances could be solved through the simple act of ASKING the player if they want to install it, and not mandating its installation.  end of story.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrWiggles on March 04, 2019, 07:19:24 am
Oh right. You are the only golden  arbiter of what is silly an obtuse and have maximum intimate knowledge how these update schemes work behind scence and knows how they can be structured to suit your standards. If you can't see their use they cannot have any. And they could never wver be part of a greator whole.  There can't ever be server stability  or sychonization , load order issues or collusion issues. The  article listed while interesting isn't about a singular person time to enjoy but the market in arggarate on how the time which could be spent playing isn't being spent playing. They are choosing other means to engage. That time watching esports could be spent playing.  But since your all of us the one golden arbiter on how these update works what makes them worthwhile. It definitely doesn't say it's because of digital marketing places or after market support patches.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: wierd on March 04, 2019, 07:25:39 am
as the customer who's time is being wasted, YES, I AM. Regardless of any actual reality, my perception of it is what drives MY behavior, and as a seller, seeking to obtain my tiny slice of time, you need to recognize and appreciate that.

When you fail to, and somebody else does, you lose that small drop of market.  That happens enough times, you go out of business.


But let me spell it out for you simply:

I start out wanting to play X, but when I start it, I am greeted with yet another update.  Due to issues beyond my control (because the US just fucking LOVES local franchise monopolies on ISP in regions, meaning you have MAYBE a single other choice in one, and so cannot vote with your wallet on the matter), you have shit internet, and this will take  FIVE FUCKING HOURS to complete, because instead of using a modular data format, your company decided that a monolithic data blob was the way to go. Bully for fucking you.

Guess what, instead of wating 5 hours to play, out of their limited time they have available before they have to sleep, they are gonna watch a movie instead.

OH-- there went your attention slice. POOF.




Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrWiggles on March 04, 2019, 08:02:21 am
The article doesn't support that conclusion. So do you get over burden with having such vast knowledge on how all these games work flow, management and data structure or do can you actively pick and choose which software you are aware of?
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 04, 2019, 08:11:16 am
as the customer who's time is being wasted, YES, I AM. Regardless of any actual reality, my perception of it is what drives MY behavior, and as a seller, seeking to obtain my tiny slice of time, you need to recognize and appreciate that.

When you fail to, and somebody else does, you lose that small drop of market.  That happens enough times, you go out of business.


But let me spell it out for you simply:

I start out wanting to play X, but when I start it, I am greeted with yet another update.  Due to issues beyond my control (because the US just fucking LOVES local franchise monopolies on ISP in regions, meaning you have MAYBE a single other choice in one, and so cannot vote with your wallet on the matter), you have shit internet, and this will take  FIVE FUCKING HOURS to complete, because instead of using a modular data format, your company decided that a monolithic data blob was the way to go. Bully for fucking you.

Guess what, instead of wating 5 hours to play, out of their limited time they have available before they have to sleep, they are gonna watch a movie instead.

OH-- there went your attention slice. POOF.

What are you even talking about? Just use offline mode and you dont get updates or have to deal with any sort of internet-related bullshit. Unless your complaint is that steam is shit because you can't play multiplayer games without those games being updated?

(Also if you dont want to go offline and notice you have a game which frequently has large updates but you dont often play, you can tell that game to only update when you tell it to )
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: wierd on March 04, 2019, 08:14:00 am
Look,  A monolithic data blob is used for a certain number of reasons:

1) Compression is maximized through max potential consolidation of entropy.  (You have a smaller install footprint)
2) Data is loaded in a consistent order from the blob. (where smaller modules can possibly be loaded out of order if a user renames one, for instance.)
3) It is easier to keep version control over a single file than many small ones.

BUT-

It has a significant problem:

When you update it, you cannot easily "in place" patch it, because it is a compressed archive. Depending on the archival tech used, this could completely hose the archive if you try.  This leads to "whoop! Time to download 4gb of data because we added a single new holiday unit!"  Which is bullshit.

Many developers consider the benefits to vastly outweigh the detraction.  that is, until peak attention starts really roosting.  Suddenly, not having your players wait 5 hours before they can play has significant benefits.


Your counter argument "that article does not support that", is very facile.  The article indeed does not go through a laborious breakdown of how much of what market demographics get impacted by what common market practices, which would include "abusive updates."

However, that does not make your implied statement correct either (eg, the implied "Therefor not important, or not applicable!")

See also, the almost droning refrain from the internet of "We are NOT your QA department!"

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/5gjxcp/what_exactly_is_the_problem_with_day_one_patches/

Just read it a bit.  You will find the "Wait to play" thing is not just me being a bitch.  it's a real complaint from your market, and will have real aggregate impacts.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: wierd on March 04, 2019, 08:25:17 am
as the customer who's time is being wasted, YES, I AM. Regardless of any actual reality, my perception of it is what drives MY behavior, and as a seller, seeking to obtain my tiny slice of time, you need to recognize and appreciate that.

When you fail to, and somebody else does, you lose that small drop of market.  That happens enough times, you go out of business.


But let me spell it out for you simply:

I start out wanting to play X, but when I start it, I am greeted with yet another update.  Due to issues beyond my control (because the US just fucking LOVES local franchise monopolies on ISP in regions, meaning you have MAYBE a single other choice in one, and so cannot vote with your wallet on the matter), you have shit internet, and this will take  FIVE FUCKING HOURS to complete, because instead of using a modular data format, your company decided that a monolithic data blob was the way to go. Bully for fucking you.

Guess what, instead of wating 5 hours to play, out of their limited time they have available before they have to sleep, they are gonna watch a movie instead.

OH-- there went your attention slice. POOF.

What are you even talking about? Just use offline mode and you dont get updates or have to deal with any sort of internet-related bullshit. Unless your complaint is that steam is shit because you can't play multiplayer games without those games being updated?

(Also if you dont want to go offline and notice you have a game which frequently has large updates but you dont often play, you can tell that game to only update when you tell it to )

More

"I dont make use of the multiplayer aspects of this multiplayer capable game; I prefer solo play. I really do not give even a single shit about your new holiday encounter thing you added. The fact that you require always on verification, and couple that with your version control methods, mean I cannot play unless I am online, and when you push yet another thing I really dont care about, and never will, I have to spend hours downloading it before I can play. I don't like that."

Services like Steam just facilitate that. They are kinda the middle man that gets stuck with the blame, even though they are not really the problem child. It's vendors like EA, Ubi, and pals that demand the "always on + version control == our wet dream experience" that are the villains.)
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: ggamer on March 04, 2019, 05:25:09 pm
the only way this makes business sense is if you see it as activision-blizzard (and every other publisher that pulls bonkers shit like this) attempting to keep prolific devs from budding off into their own companies (like bungie). It'd also explain why they're pushing profit projections into the dang stratosphere off of little to no analysis or factual backing to the projections.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: Reelya on March 05, 2019, 06:12:09 am
How does laying off large amounts of staff at the same time prevent them budding off to form their own companies? I'd say it would foster the exact opposite.

Big game publishers are also not at all scared of upstart game studios. All the start-ups get to take the risks, most will fail, a few will survive, and then Activision & Co can snap up those new properties for a good price. The losses are therefore spread out to the investors in the independent game studios, not Activision. It's the same reason that TV networks continue to use external production studios instead of doing everything in-house. If it's all in-house you have to absorb the costs of all the failures, instead of only profiting off the successes.

Actually, this move makes perfect sense for a games company the size of Activision. Activision are too large by far. Downsizing makes sense. Once you get to the scale of a company like this, many managers ad admin staff spend a significant amount of time just coordinating management-tasks between themselves rather than managing projects. Removing one middle-manager removes the need to coordinate communication with that person from possibly dozens of other people to keep them informed about everything that could involve them. Sure, the value of their work is lost, but so is the cost of all make-work needed to maintain their role as a functioning component of the system.

Not every franchise is created equal. Some are wildly more profitable per hour invested than others are. So, you close down things that are only marginally profitable, and switch all your AAA-grade developers to working on the really profitable stuff. Additionally, since there's a finite cap on the amount of attention/time consumers have, if you get as big as Activision, some of your titles end up competing with other titles you own. Reducing the number of titles therefore makes it easier for your other titles to be profitable. Sure, some of that freed-up attention will go to rival studio's games, but you do reduce the pressure on your remaining titles too.
Title: Re: Video game company layoffs
Post by: MrRoboto75 on March 17, 2019, 10:20:22 pm
Turns out, Epic's store spies on your steam (https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-03-15-epic-responds-to-accusations-its-launcher-accesses-steam-data-without-permission) activity (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/epic-promises-to-fix-game-launcher-after-privacy-concerns/)