Why you not just add edible_raw to leaf template? But this need regenerate world.
One of my adventurers lived on melons he found for a few weeks. But that might have been in a rainforest. :-\
Wow, very fortunate spot, one of those should handle a Adventurer for at least a week—if they do not consume the entire thing in one sitting. Hmm, my Elven Adventurer started in a "Lush Forest", and it seems peach trees are the most common delicacies in her surroundings that have not grown peaches, yet.
Is your Adventurer able to eat Watermelon Leaves and any of the leaves I listed above?
No. I never tried eating any of the leaves. My Dwarf adventurers normally just grab fruit and, when near a coast, go hunt for crab meat.
Huh, I see. I will have to make sure to start near a coast next time. What season—or month—was it when you found the watermelons for the first time?
(E: Added what is in italics.)
Remember the leaves of some of these otherwise yummy fruits/vegetables are poisonous in real life (like rhubarb). So, yes, I agreee it should be addressed with some more thought as to what should be edible and what shouldn't. And by whom. Should an animal person be able to eat stuff its animal form can eat, or would it's human stomach be an issue?
Ignore people who tell you to mod in suggestions. The fact that many people mod them in is actually a better reason to make a suggestion for it to be standard behaviour in the game.
I gather no one's compiled a list because most characters tend to be omnivores. They either hunt or they eat what's in bags located in civ sites.
You could compile a list by combing through the 5 possible categories in the raws...…looking for EDIBLE_RAW token, then sifting based on time of year/biome. But that requires learning to sort through the raws.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's also easier to use DF wiki: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Watermelon — all vegetation can be referenced there.
Ethics are supposed to define some things which characters can/can't eat (like sapient beings). However it's broken right now and regardless of ethics you can't eat your friends and enemies.
Very interesting if edible_raw is broken in the same way. Maybe test a vanilla adventurer and see what happens.
I note that there was a bug in which edible_raw seeds were not edible in Adventurer, it was fixed, but I wonder if it got broken again, or if leaves were just overlooked.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7911
Leeks are available year-round, right?
I think they are, but I can't confirm that, since I'm playing Fort Mode right now. Maybe if you find one, and check if they're indeed edible?Leeks are available year-round, right?
I have yet to find a leek, but I can add it to the "Evergreen" list if they are confirmed to be edible in Adventure Mode.
I think they are, but I can't confirm that, since I'm playing Fort Mode right now. Maybe if you find one, and check if they're indeed edible?
Hmm, I have mostly focused on hunting for food, but spinach is one that I'm sure of. And bloated tuber. And the obvious ones, such as strawberry/blueberry/bilberry, and apricots, plums. And I could've sworn there is an edible flower, but I can't recall its name!I think they are, but I can't confirm that, since I'm playing Fort Mode right now. Maybe if you find one, and check if they're indeed edible?
If I stumble across one while I am checking other vegetables, sure.
Do you know of any other vegetables you have actually confirmed to be edible in Adventure Mode when you last played it?
Hmm, I have mostly focused on hunting for food, but spinach is one that I'm sure of. And bloated tuber. And the obvious ones, such as strawberry/blueberry/bilberry, and apricots, plums. And I could've sworn there is an edible flower, but I can't recall its name!
You lick the tomato leaf.
You lick the buckwheat leaf.
You lick the peanut leaf.
I decided to gen a world and an elf adventurer to search for a purple amaranth and its supposedly edible leaves. Unfortunately, I forgot to turn off bogeymen. I didn't find any new edible plants for your list before my head was kicked in. I did find three inedible ones, though. I may pick up the quest again later.Code: [Select]You lick the tomato leaf.
You lick the buckwheat leaf.
You lick the peanut leaf.
Bogeymen have been nerfed for the next version by being banished to evil and new "nightmare demon" biomes (but have been given new powers, so be careful). As Toady says, it "puts an end to that little years-long experiment in annoying people."I decided to gen a world and an elf adventurer to search for a purple amaranth and its supposedly edible leaves. Unfortunately, I forgot to turn off bogeymen. I didn't find any new edible plants for your list before my head was kicked in. I did find three inedible ones, though. I may pick up the quest again later.Code: [Select]You lick the tomato leaf.
You lick the buckwheat leaf.
You lick the peanut leaf.
Added them to the list, and thanks a ton for helping out. ❦
I have been seeing some bad things in these forums about Boogeymen being a nuisance rather than an immersive experience which made me somewhat regret not disabling them before generating my current world, but I think I may be okay since I have two companions tagging along with me on my adventure.
I have been seeing some bad things in these forums about Boogeymen being a nuisance rather than an immersive experience which made me somewhat regret not disabling them
If I viewed the correct file for Adventure Mode, it seems as though my raws for each leaf my Elven Adventurer tried to consume already possess the keywords [EDIBLE_RAW] under each of them.
This is what was in my 'plant_crops.txt' for the Purple Amaranth:Spoiler (click to show/hide)Remember the leaves of some of these otherwise yummy fruits/vegetables are poisonous in real life (like rhubarb). So, yes, I agreee it should be addressed with some more thought as to what should be edible and what shouldn't. And by whom. Should an animal person be able to eat stuff its animal form can eat, or would it's human stomach be an issue?
Ignore people who tell you to mod in suggestions. The fact that many people mod them in is actually a better reason to make a suggestion for it to be standard behaviour in the game.
Oh wow, really? I never knew rhubarb leaves are actually poisonous. TIL.
You made me very thankful for my Adventurer's inability to eat the rhubarb leaf when I made her try it even though... I think licking it may be just as bad. I am really hoping more people come by to share what they know about the vegetation in Adventure Mode, and you are right, if we have to mod quality of life features into a game, they most certainly should be standard if they are not "game-breaking".
I think they are, but I can't confirm that, since I'm playing Fort Mode right now. Maybe if you find one, and check if they're indeed edible?
If I stumble across one while I am checking other vegetables, sure.
Do you know of any other vegetables you have actually confirmed to be edible in Adventure Mode when you last played it?
Bogeymen have been nerfed for the next version by being banished to evil and new "nightmare demon" biomes (but have been given new powers, so be careful). As Toady says, it "puts an end to that little years-long experiment in annoying people."
They can be deadly even if you aren't dawdling about as an oblivious peasant elf with a wooden spear and no shield or armor. This time I countered them with a drunk so all's good, although the purple amaranths remain elusive. If I wasn't specifically seeking them I'd probably trip over them constantly. From this short play it's becoming clear that a phyllophagous adventurer will have a harder time with meal variance.Spoiler: additional leaf data (click to show/hide)
I never thought to compile a list but i do like wandering around in adventure mode picking fruit and leaves and such and trying them. I play more as a hunter-gatherer i wander around picking what I can, killing things and eating them.
Leeks are defintely edible
It is safe to make tea out of strawberry leaves (and to eat, but they don't taste that good), so they should be edible in DF, but aren't.Hmm, I have mostly focused on hunting for food, but spinach is one that I'm sure of. And bloated tuber. And the obvious ones, such as strawberry/blueberry/bilberry, and apricots, plums. And I could've sworn there is an edible flower, but I can't recall its name!
I will add them to the list. :)
Huh, so bilberries themselves are edible but not its leaves. I suppose that makes sense since we cannot eat rhubarb leaves nor do we eat the leaves of... strawberries, but I wonder if some of those fruits and veggies' leaves are actually edible in reality despite us picking them off and tossing them away before we eat the fruits and veggies themselves.
Oh, and is this just regular spinach or one of the colored ones? (I added it as regular spinach just in case.)
It is safe to make tea out of strawberry leaves (and to eat, but they don't taste that good), so they should be edible in DF, but aren't.
Sorry I forgot to add, I meant regular spinach!
Many people think alike:It is safe to make tea out of strawberry leaves (and to eat, but they don't taste that good), so they should be edible in DF, but aren't.
Sorry I forgot to add, I meant regular spinach!
Ohh, then are Dwarves in Fortress Mode able to make tea out of strawberry leaves? If not, I think that should be suggested. I love how there is knowledge of real life recipes, alongside the toxicity of certain leaves from edible fruits and vegetables, to learn from all of this.
Thank you. Added them to the list. ❦
Really? I heard that they can spawn upon a sleeping Adventurer even while accompanied by Companions because the latter will wander about despite being told to wait. Now I am very thankful they are getting banished to a specific evil biome with some buffs to compensate because I am way too much of a novice to know how to handle being surrounded. (I probably picked a very poor weapon choice as well—Archery.)
I am actually surprised we cannot eat cabbage! Someone must have really hated their veggies as a kid. So far, this seems intentional for Adventure Mode—which makes me very happy about my raws not being defective—because there are so few veggies we can eat that does make a commitment to a phyllophagous diet difficult like you said, and I assume it is this way to ensure we are cannot easily satiate ourselves to keep us on the hunt for sustenance. If only we could find some actual fruits and whole vegetables during early spring!
I agree! It would be awesome to see more variety in cooking. Different leaf teas and coffee for dwarves and humans, meat/bone teas for knife-ears, and such.It is safe to make tea out of strawberry leaves (and to eat, but they don't taste that good), so they should be edible in DF, but aren't.
Sorry I forgot to add, I meant regular spinach!
Ohh, then are Dwarves in Fortress Mode able to make tea out of strawberry leaves? If not, I think that should be suggested. I love how there is knowledge of real life recipes, alongside the toxicity of certain leaves from edible fruits and vegetables, to learn from all of this. If we are able to eat bitter melon leaves, I think we should be able to consume strawberry leaves—at least in Fortress Mode.
Also, I managed to find a tree with an overabundance of almonds, apricots, and walnuts! I can confirm that apricots are indeed edible.
There is a thread for that? Nice!Many people think alike:It is safe to make tea out of strawberry leaves (and to eat, but they don't taste that good), so they should be edible in DF, but aren't.
Sorry I forgot to add, I meant regular spinach!
Ohh, then are Dwarves in Fortress Mode able to make tea out of strawberry leaves? If not, I think that should be suggested. I love how there is knowledge of real life recipes, alongside the toxicity of certain leaves from edible fruits and vegetables, to learn from all of this.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171498.msg7814163#msg7814163
Many people think alike:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171498.msg7814163#msg7814163
You're welcome. :)
I've personally never had problems with bogeys appearing if I have a companion but I don't doubt that it happens. You're right about handling bogeys being something outside of novice scope. What I liked to do was roll up a dwarf peasant adventurer, focus on shield and dodge, make sure they spawned with some decent armor and then wander into the wilderness and save before nightfall and a bogeyman ambush. Save-scum until the bogey ambush triggered a martial trance in my dwarf (absolutely required) and then with luck, a lot of dodging and judiciously opportunistic hacking of bogey legs to slow them down, I've power-leveled my peasant. Even with a martial trance you're more likely to die than not at that skill level. I haven't done any serious adventuring since before the speed split changes to combat so I don't know if it's still a workableexploitstrategy. As far as whether or not bows are a good choice, just play what you find fun or think fits the adventurer. Roleplay reasons will always give you a better play than min-max reasons (says a person who has done a far bit of min-maxing).
Regarding cabbage leaf in adventure mode, it actually makes sense with the current implementation. The cabbage leaf is modelling the outer green leaves of the head that we all throw away. The problem is that herbalism hasn't been implemented in adventure mode yet. For instance, your adventurer can come across a fisherberry and not be able to do anything more than set it on fire. In fortmode a herbalist can pick the berry and have an edible raw food item as easily as that. Once herbalism is folded into adventure mode you'll be able to pick the cabbage, throw away the inedible outer leaves that are the "cabbage leaf" and eat the deliciously crunchy cabbage head. Until then a vegetarian adventurer needs to make do with things that are completely edible and so don't require herbalism to "pick" the good bits, like lettuce and garden cress etc. That's why I've searched for the purple amaranth to corroborate your findings and see whats up with the leaves. Maybe the fact that you can mill them makes their otherwise edible leaves inaccessible to the adventurer (my current working theory based on nothing).
I agree! It would be awesome to see more variety in cooking. Different leaf teas and coffee for dwarves and humans, meat/bone teas for knife-ears, and such.
Also poisonous plants would be FUN! You know, having your adventurer with low skill accidentally misidentify edible berries with poisonous ones, and get a syndrome, which could range from mildly irritating, to permanently crippling, to lethal. That could depend on the plant, and the dose. The lowest dose being licking. And adventurers, that are starving, or have a greedy trait, would automatically/more likely consume a larger dose.
Kind of funny that apricots are edible with their stone included!
Thanks, I'm glad that you like them! Yeah, lick could be used to give some idea of the plant, without being dangerous (unless it's a stingy plant, such as poison ivy). Like, a menu where you choose whether you lick, or nibble, or bite, or eat whole. Also, that could be set automatically, to spare time with certainly edible plants. Last option could have some risk of asphyxiation, in addition to it being a large dose. And those parts which don't provide nutrition when eaten, simply won't remove hunger.I agree! It would be awesome to see more variety in cooking. Different leaf teas and coffee for dwarves and humans, meat/bone teas for knife-ears, and such.
Also poisonous plants would be FUN! You know, having your adventurer with low skill accidentally misidentify edible berries with poisonous ones, and get a syndrome, which could range from mildly irritating, to permanently crippling, to lethal. That could depend on the plant, and the dose. The lowest dose being licking. And adventurers, that are starving, or have a greedy trait, would automatically/more likely consume a larger dose.
Kind of funny that apricots are edible with their stone included!
Right?! I would love to see those missing recipes be added to Fortress and Adventurer Mode to provide more versatility to certain leaves, fruits, and vegetables. You're getting me hyped up with all of these brilliant ideas. ❦
Poisonous plants would stop us from carelessly picking and trying every vegetable we find, and I really like that idea. They could change the whole "lick" thing to an option we can use to test objects based on taste, and as DG mentioned (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175019.msg8055310#msg8055310), we are missing Herbalism in Adventure Mode, and I believe that could help Adventurers and Dwarves identify what is and is not poisonous based on "l"ooking at their descriptions before picking them (Herbalism will provide more information about vegetables when picked and checked within inventories). Licking the vegetables—or any poisoned item—would have a chance to convey the slightest of their poisonous effects as well as a high chance to resist them, since it is slight dosage after all from merely a lick, and would provide a more detailed description about the item when inspected after being licked.
Oh, and I did see something called an "apricot pit" in the tree, I think, so I believe they are automatically spat out onto the ground when the Adventurer or NPC finishes consuming the edible parts of the apricot; although, I would not put it pass characters in Dwarf Fortress eating the whole thing then potentially dying to asphyxiation due to the pit since deaths seem to be silly in this game, lol.
Yes, dwarves are the only creatures that will trance in vanilla because they have [TRANCES] in their raws. If you have a dwarven adventurer they are more likely to enter a trance when they encounter multiple enemies (like being swarmed by bogeymen) and it can really swing an otherwise impossible fight. The boost to resisting combat fatigue alone is very powerful.
A butterfly monster sounds like you encountered a demon. Those are meant to be a challenge even to experienced and well-equipped adventurers, not least of all because of their massive size. The game doesn't do a great job of highlighting size differences. From memory, the problem with bows and xbows in adventure mode is that once you fire it, you automatically reload and in that time your enemies are free to close on you which can be bad news. There isn't yet (unless it was changed without me noticing) anyway to fire and drop your bow to ready yourself for their charge. That's why throwing is generally regarded as superior. It's very quick, you don't have to worry about specific ammo and the damage can be laughably broken. The speed changes I mentioned was the implementation of quick and heavy strikes and the different run speeds and anything else that came with and after that. So take my musings with a grain of salt, they're not based on current mechanics. Kisat Dur is a good read in regards to becoming a better combat adventurer. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148015.495
No herbalism in adventure mode isn't so much an oversight as it is one of the myriad things jostling for the dev time required to be implemented. It'll go in sooner or (much more likely) later.
Thanks, I'm glad that you like them! Yeah, lick could be used to give some idea of the plant, without being dangerous (unless it's a stingy plant, such as poison ivy). Like, a menu where you choose whether you lick, or nibble, or bite, or eat whole. Also, that could be set automatically, to spare time with certainly edible plants. Last option could have some risk of asphyxiation, in addition to it being a large dose. And those parts which don't provide nutrition when eaten, simply won't remove hunger.
Don't hesitate to make a Suggestion forum post or add it to someone else's related suggestion. People have come up with many good ideas but have failed to put them in writing where the brothers will read it and potentially take note. This thread inspired a suggestion of my own so I've taken my own advice. ;)
They seem to be very nomadic based on how much my Elven Adventurer picks up their scent when sleeping.If the scent is death, bug innards, etc. then it's a night troll.
About Archery... I can confirm that firing an arrow from my bow does cause time to pass while I am reloading, and that is so disadvantageous and unwieldy. The time it takes to reload an arrow should share the same amount of time it takes for an arrow to soar to its destination the millisecond it leaves the Archer's fingertips. If the arrow reaches its destination before the Archer can reload, that is when they can be at a risk of too much time passing. Does Archery or Bowman decrease the time it takes to reload the bow as the Adventurer becomes more skilled with either combat skill? Archery does seem to state as much in the wiki, and Bowman does not have its own page nor a description beyond "allows characters to use bows more effectively".
Is close-ranged combat the only efficient way to fight in Dwarf Fortress? I am a bit disappointed about Archery being so inefficient due to how terrible reloading is...For many players, the reload time and the seeming randomness of volume damage = death via a thousand cuts discourages play as archer. There are interesting ways to play archer, but these require different expectations than those from other rogue-likes involving ranged combat where your character can William Tell your opponent.
Stuff about grappling.If a larger sized creature grabs your character, you will only get free when they let go. Legendary wrestler versus a much much bigger NPC who has maybe even dabbling wrestler = perpetual struggle to break grip. To avoid avoid being grabbed, you must (once you see the NPC has opted to grab attempt you) choose a single action behavior: to manually dodge away. Whether the combat message is they miss (roll to grab failure) or they do indeed make the grab!, the end result is that you will have dodged away, leaving one tile of separation between you and the NPC, thus grip breaking. This is only way.
If the scent is death, bug innards, etc. then it's a night troll.
Spoiler: Here's a rough guess of bow/xbow reload time (click to show/hide)
For many players, the reload time and the seeming randomness of volume damage = death via a thousand cuts discourages play as archer. There are interesting ways to play archer, but these require different expectations than those from other rogue-likes involving ranged combat where your character can William Tell your opponent.
If you want to run a archer character, regardless of reload time, you have to play a distance management oriented-game that revolves around NPC view range (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Creature_token#VIEWRANGE) which is a distance of 20 tiles. Hostile NPCs happen to be oblivious to anything in the 21-25 tile safety pocket. It's from this pocket that you volume/volley arrows/bolts at the tile they stand on.
Unfortunately dwarf is the optimal choice for archer as they see the full 25 tiles whether day or night allowing them to make the best use of cover gained through visual stealth. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163191.0)
If a larger sized creature grabs your character, you will only get free when they let go. Legendary wrestler versus a much much bigger NPC who has maybe even dabbling wrestler = perpetual struggle to break grip. To avoid avoid being grabbed, you must (once you see the NPC has opted to grab attempt you) choose a single action behavior: to manually dodge away. Whether the combat message is they miss (roll to grab failure) or they do indeed make the grab!, the end result is that you will have dodged away, leaving one tile of separation between you and the NPC, thus grip breaking. This is only way.
Thematically it's definitely all technique driven Dwarf Fortress judo.
Dwarves are pretty cool, true. They have trances, strange moods, good vision, damage resistance, big livers, steel. Elves are immortal, at peace with wildlife (maybe that's why the butterfly monster let you go? :P probably not), don't kill grass when walking on it...Umm...More hair colour options? But dwarves have been worked on from the start for over a decade. The other races are still playing catch up with features or waiting for them to be properly implemented (like the elven proclivity to waste-not/want-not eat their enemies as noted in legends mode).
Peasant-cretin covered the mechanics well, all I'll add is that there are heaps and heaps of suggestions for fixes to ranged combat. The reload wait in adventure mode and the machinegun xbow rate in dwarf mode are the most common concerns. Dwarves (and human or goblins or elves etc) can use any weapon they are big enough for. They will even use bows in Fort mode if you buy one from a caravan, it's just a "cultural" restriction that they don't make them for themselves. I usually copy the human weapon raws to the dwarven raws because I figure they should be able to make any weapon they want, even if they prefer to use certain types. Also, dwarves of a certain outstanding size are meant to be able to wield very large weapons like two-handed swords in fortmode but there is a bug hanging around that causes the check to not be made (last time I looked).
Edit: Oh, and Tarn has confirmed (and reiterated to convince people over the years) that at least the first post of every suggestion is read. You won't get a reply because that would take too much time, but you can be confident that it will at least be read by them.
I may have to kill some of them for food and crafting materials.You could find a cave that connects to the underground and hunt some of the more unnatural creatures down there if you want to keep the "at peace with the (surface) wilderness" vibe. It's a long way to go to butcher something to eat. Less unreasonable to go there for crafting materials, maybe. It's also a great way to die to a giant spider or simply get lost and never see the sun again.
Out of curiosity, why do certain skills have their names changed to include "dwarf" in it such as... 'Marksdwarf'?It's just to reflect that dwarves wouldn't think of or refer to themselves with a human mindset. So any man-compound word is changed to dwarf, or elf or goblin. The effect is a little diluted by the animal peoples being called badgerman or whatever. That's all in the raws, too. You can easily make it so that a marksdwarf is called a marksbeard or something if you wished. Or just change every race to use the same terms for fighters and crafters.
Hm, is he the only developer of the game? I did see someone in the credits that shares a last name with him, so I am unsure.It's just him (Toady One/Tarn) and his brother (Threetoe/Zach). Tarn does the programming but they more or less collaborate on everything else like the planning, brainstorming and design. Kitfox Games will handle the steam release and they have a couple of guys working on the steam version tileset and some steam version music is already finished. But it's only the two brothers driving the game proper forward.
I might be overthinking this a little, but the first post being the part of the thread that the OP creates for the Devs and everyone else to share their thoughts about through sharing their own comments below it?Yeah. So if this was a suggestion forum thread, your first post where you have the plant list would definitely be read by either Tarn or Zach or both. I assume that if the suggestion is interesting and good conversation continues in the thread they might read the replies, too. If it's one of the many repeat suggestions I would expect them to simply move on.
You could find a cave that connects to the underground and hunt some of the more unnatural creatures down there if you want to keep the "at peace with the (surface) wilderness" vibe. It's a long way to go to butcher something to eat. Less unreasonable to go there for crafting materials, maybe. It's also a great way to die to a giant spider or simply get lost and never see the sun again.
It's just to reflect that dwarves wouldn't think of or refer to themselves with a human mindset. So any man-compound word is changed to dwarf, or elf or goblin. The effect is a little diluted by the animal peoples being called badgerman or whatever. That's all in the raws, too. You can easily make it so that a marksdwarf is called a marksbeard or something if you wished. Or just change every race to use the same terms for fighters and crafters.
It's just him (Toady One/Tarn) and his brother (Threetoe/Zach). Tarn does the programming but they more or less collaborate on everything else like the planning, brainstorming and design. Kitfox Games will handle the steam release and they have a couple of guys working on the steam version tileset and some steam version music is already finished. But it's only the two brothers driving the game proper forward.
Yeah. So if this was a suggestion forum thread, your first post where you have the plant list would definitely be read by either Tarn or Zach or both. I assume that if the suggestion is interesting and good conversation continues in the thread they might read the replies, too. If it's one of the many repeat suggestions I would expect them to simply move on.
It showed up as "Butterfly Monster" next to "Strongest Odor" at the top left of Dwarf Fortress's client.Based on the DF client info, yeah that Butterfly Monster looks to be a demon. Night trolls have a "now you fear the night" at the end of their descriptions, while demons (and a few other creatures) always have a special attack. In this case, a deadly spittle.
From what I understood of those statistics, reload speed for bows is still detrimental at Grandmaster Archery and Bowman . . . That may be what I will have to do—keeping my distance and sneaking around—to stick to Archery because I really do not want to be funneled into a melee build to succeed in Dwarf Fortress . . . I am starting to wonder what else (dwarf) they have over every other race that will make my preferred race feel sub-optimal.Reload time is a non-issue when you fire from 21-25 tiles out (preferably 23-25, to have a 2 tile margin of error). When I first started DF (v34.11), as someone who came from Angband, I somewhat randomly ended up playing ranger using the distance format, positioning at 25 tiles out. There's more to this, but if you muck around with archery I think you'll find it more rewarding than other rogue-likes. Instead of the classic hit point attrition-to-zero-first arrow hits NPC game, DF gives you a fire at tile cluster within 3 dimensions, with varying damage scales approach.
. . . does Strength influence the chances of breaking free from a larger creature's grasp? If so, I have a feeling it may not if the smaller creature's Strength is lesser than the larger creature's Strength.Roughly: an average-sized, average strength human = a large-sized, average-to-abv-avg strength elf/dwarf/goblin. So there will be instances where your superelven strength elf will be able to break a larger creature's grasp the "traditional" way as opposed to the "meta" single-action, manual dodge method. This will include humans and some night trolls, but nothing of larger variety.
I am also wondering if dodging is my only way to keep my distance from a creature that is faster than me and is capable of charging me.The first priority in melee combat is to negotiate a creature's charge attack = damage their ability to stand, to deprive them of this very charge attack. If you get rundown by charge, you could incur a -50% stat debuff. From the min-max optimal POV, this means use a multi-action attack (quick attack + dodge away) to ground them.
Based on the DF client info, yeah that Butterfly Monster looks to be a demon. Night trolls have a "now you fear the night" at the end of their descriptions, while demons (and a few other creatures) always have a special attack. In this case, a deadly spittle.
Reload time is a non-issue when you fire from 21-25 tiles out (preferably 23-25, to have a 2 tile margin of error). When I first started DF (v34.11), as someone who came from Angband, I somewhat randomly ended up playing ranger using the distance format, positioning at 25 tiles out. There's more to this, but if you muck around with archery I think you'll find it more rewarding than other rogue-likes. Instead of the classic hit point attrition-to-zero-first arrow hits NPC game, DF gives you a fire at tile cluster within 3 dimensions, with varying damage scales approach.
Running a Legalas "shoot from an adjacent tile" combat is possible, but the gulf between your Dodger/Shield user skills and the opponent's attack skill would need to be exceedingly high. I've done this, but it just isn't narratively sound and has always felt wildly exploitive, mechanically.
If you favor elf/human as a ranged player, you'll need to work within the constraints of being a pure daylight/aboveground archer. Yes, many elves, half-elves, humans and dúnedain frown.
Roughly: an average-sized, average strength human = a large-sized, average-to-abv-avg strength elf/dwarf/goblin. So there will be instances where your superelven strength elf will be able to break a larger creature's grasp the "traditional" way as opposed to the "meta" single-action, manual dodge method. This will include humans and some night trolls, but nothing of larger variety.
The first priority in melee combat is to negotiate a creature's charge attack = damage their ability to stand, to deprive them of this very charge attack. If you get rundown by charge, you could incur a -50% stat debuff. From the min-max optimal POV, this means use a multi-action attack (quick attack + dodge away) to ground them.
*Snip* (sorry, editing on a phone is a pain).Worth pointing out that Adventurer isn't something that was added on later. It was there from the first release. The world has always been the main point and Adventurer was a way to explore it. As development progresses the border between the two modes should become more and more flexible.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
You've filled up the world with plotting villains, zombie apocalypses and monasteries while updating the interface with org charts to help people to find their way around while giving them pets, companions and strategic combat to keep them distracted. Do you think Adventure Mode is now close to Fortress Mode's level of "being somewhat like an actual game" now? Relatively speaking of course, I know there's tons more to add which will enhance both modes.
Ha ha, I dunno - it still feels like it needs more structure, tied in to the societies and individuals. Due to its relative microscope nature vs. fortress mode, it might be hard to shake that feeling. I'm not done with the investigations though. That was supposed to be an important rafter holding something like a game up. But it feels like we still need some more basic above-board political structuring that'll let the world change, so it feels like you have a properly reactive story, rather than something on-the-balance destructive or oblivious. Dwarf mode has these problems as well, but it can escape the feeling of them by having the whole fort there bustling and providing more fluidly creative options.
It's fine! I cannot see myself editing comments on mobile in the way I respond to others, unless they change the language and how commenting works to mimic Reddit's, so I always respond to others here on desktop.*Snip* (sorry, editing on a phone is a pain).Worth pointing out that Adventurer isn't something that was added on later. It was there from the first release. The world has always been the main point and Adventurer was a way to explore it. As development progresses the border between the two modes should become more and more flexible.
It is, of course, rather undeveloped still compared to fortress and even with this 18 month+ update that's basically all Adventurer plus some cool fortress stuff thrown in, it's not there yet (as far as fortress mode is "there") with Toady mentioning what's missing in fotf recently.
So, um, --push train back onto tracks-- the more Adventurer suggestions the better really, but it'll still be without a coherent point for quite a while yet.
Toady in fotf on the state of Adventurer:QuoteQuote from: Shonai_Dweller
You've filled up the world with plotting villains, zombie apocalypses and monasteries while updating the interface with org charts to help people to find their way around while giving them pets, companions and strategic combat to keep them distracted. Do you think Adventure Mode is now close to Fortress Mode's level of "being somewhat like an actual game" now? Relatively speaking of course, I know there's tons more to add which will enhance both modes.
Ha ha, I dunno - it still feels like it needs more structure, tied in to the societies and individuals. Due to its relative microscope nature vs. fortress mode, it might be hard to shake that feeling. I'm not done with the investigations though. That was supposed to be an important rafter holding something like a game up. But it feels like we still need some more basic above-board political structuring that'll let the world change, so it feels like you have a properly reactive story, rather than something on-the-balance destructive or oblivious. Dwarf mode has these problems as well, but it can escape the feeling of them by having the whole fort there bustling and providing more fluidly creative options.
Things just work out that way sometimes. Dwarf Fortress was a side project to Slaves of Armok which was rubbish. They realised this and polished up Dwarf Fortress released it and became an overnight (modest, cult, Indie) success. The big picture to them is the same as it was since they were kids. Procgen RPG with emerging storytelling.
Did you see the video from a couple of days ago? He talks a bit about that there.
--edit
There you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=farAaxCEkv8
(Recorded from livestream, doesn't start until around 10 minute mark).
Everything is hidden. I think they like it that way.
What you can start with are Threetoe's Stories. This was an exercise in writing short generic fantasy stories and then analyzing them and asking just what kind of systems would be needed to achieve the various elements. They're very interesting.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_story.html
Then take a look at the Mythgen prototype demo video. That's a taste of what the future holds (keeps getting put off due to distractions like Steam and Villains taking a year longer than expected, but it really is coming someday).
https://youtu.be/49b7fUI7AEI
Despite every race's vision being limited to twenty squares (excluding Dwarves), I would not mind a Sentinel's play-style since it is yet another realistic feature of Archery regardless of its crippling reload times.In daylight all player characters can see 25 tiles. NPCs for some reason have been restricted to an active viewrange (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Creature_token#VIEWRANGE) of 20.
Ah, okay, so I need to quickly attack them and dodge through multi-attacks until I manage to cripple them? That seems doable as an Archer as long as I have decent Dodging, and once I do cripple them, I assume I will be able to create space between us to finish them off with arrows, or is it advised to continue to finish them off with melee attacks? Finishing them off via melee would probably be a smarter idea if they have ranged attacks of their own that may come from their mouths.Yes. In regard to melee, the priorities of greatest urgency are: (1.) ground the enemy, and if they are unarmed (2.) manually dodge their grabbing attack. Ground kills their charge attack, and the manual dodge will grip break a successful grab. Once grounding is done, you will finish them with melee. You won't be able to get 25 tiles between you and the injured enemy to freely use arrows.
Oh, and about that Shield User thing you were talking about, are creatures able to wield a shield or strap one to their forearms if they are wielding a bow at the same time? I am not sure how to train Dodger and Shield User to Grandmaster or Legendary without getting into fights and that seems to be the only way which... is not bad, I suppose.In game it is mechanically possible to fire a bow and use a shield. My characters avoid this as it's narratively jarring. YMMV.
In daylight all player characters can see 25 tiles. NPCs for some reason have been restricted to an active viewrange (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Creature_token#VIEWRANGE) of 20.
So player elves/humans needn't worry.
Yes. In regard to melee, the priorities of greatest urgency are: (1.) ground the enemy, and if they are unarmed (2.) manually dodge their grabbing attack. Ground kills their charge attack, and the manual dodge will grip break a successful grab. Once grounding is done, you will finish them with melee. You won't be able to get 25 tiles between you and the injured enemy to freely use arrows.
In game it is mechanically possible to fire a bow and use a shield. My characters avoid this as it's narratively jarring. YMMV.
Yes, dodger and shield-user train best and most consistently through melee. I wouldn't think about late game skill tiers. You only want to think about having enough dodger/shield user to manage the next combat you find yourself in.
If you want singularity of approach, as in you are shooty and never stabby, then you'll need to know the encounters for what they are and skip the situationally melee encounters. This means you can only run combats where your elf can guarantee themself 25 tile distance. It will be somewhat restrictive.
Narratively jarring?
He means it doesn't make sense to him to be able to use a bow well while simultaneously holding a shield, so he avoids it.
I imagine the combat reports where a critter blocks a crossbow bolt with his shield and follows up by firing his longbow instantly afterwards might seem jarring.He means it doesn't make sense to him to be able to use a bow well while simultaneously holding a shield, so he avoids it.
If the shield can be strapped to the forearm, I do not see why not.
I imagine the combat reports where a critter blocks a crossbow bolt with his shield and follows up by firing his longbow instantly afterwards might seem jarring.
I imagine the combat reports where a critter blocks a crossbow bolt with his shield and follows up by firing his longbow instantly afterwards might seem jarring.
After visualizing in my head, it seems realistic to me—maybe not the swift reaction of firing an arrow back at the target after blocking since that takes time and focus similarly to trying to channel and cast a spell after blocking an attack if we want to base this on absolute realism.
The entity has a shield that is no larger than a kite shield strapped to their left forearm, and they are wielding their bow with their left hand which they use their right hand to pull an arrow from the quiver on their back to load and attempt shooting the bow whilst aiming the bow with their left hand.
What should probably happen is while they are aiming, their focus should be interrupted if they manage to block (or dodge) an attack since they have to readjust their forearm that has the hand being used to wield the bow to intercept the attack. Since this is a Fantasy-based game with attributes that can be improved, Focus could shorten the amount of time the entity needs to do calculations for the force and angles needed to hit their mark, Agility alongside Strength could improve the speed at which the entity draws the bowstring, Kinesthetic Sense (Proprioception or Kinesthesia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception)) and Strength could have some effect on blocking and the poise of the entity blocking an attack alongside a minor positive effect towards Archery, and Spatial Sense would probably help with calculations in relation to Archery and more efficient ways to block attacks in conjunction with Kinesthetic Sense.
Of course, those attributes do not function that way in-game, so they are merely hypothetical proposals for making blocking with a shield whilst wielding a bow make sense for roleplay purposes. Agility, Focus, Kinesthetic Sense, and Spatial Sense have been listed to affect Archery/Bowman, but I am not knowledgeable to how it affects those two skills.
Quick note, an Entity in dwarf fortress refers to a collection of hist figs all working towards the same purpose and is a structure that represents that rather than an individual (a civilization is an entity and so is a bandit gang for example, and if you become a lord and hir ehearthpeople you will have created an entity, but an individual is not referred to as an entity in this game) so instead of entity the term that i would use is creature/critter. Sorry for my minor nitpic. But im referring to what toady actually calls them in code. Creatures in dwarf fortress are actually represented as templated vectors rather than any kind of actual "entity" object. Which is why they can have multiple "soul" objects (which represent your attributes), but only one is marked as active at time)
About attack interruptions that exists currently in hand to hand combat if you actively grab the hand of someone in the process of swinging a sword at you the game says "The Attack is interrupted" i imagine it would work similarly for your bowman example if he does that. (and im not sure if that is already a thing as it may be, since firing bows does take more time in df then other things)
Quick note, an Entity in dwarf fortress refers to a collection of hist figs all working towards the same purpose and is a structure that represents that rather than an individual (a civilization is an entity and so is a bandit gang for example, and if you become a lord and hir ehearthpeople you will have created an entity, but an individual is not referred to as an entity in this game) so instead of entity the term that i would use is creature/critter. Sorry for my minor nitpic. But im referring to what toady actually calls them in code. Creatures in dwarf fortress are actually represented as templated vectors rather than any kind of actual "entity" object. Which is why they can have multiple "soul" objects (which represent your attributes), but only one is marked as active at time)
Neat, TIL, and you are fine.
I refer to anything of reference (player characters [Adventurers], NPCs [Dwarves, Elves, Goblins, Kobolds, a wolf, or any other living creature], a building, an organization, a rock, and so on) as an "entity"—anything that exists as a separate being—across all subjects and games since the word means "existence" and "being" after all, so it is going to take some time for me to shift from my earthen English vocabulary to adjust to Dwarf Fortress's lingo for everything within its domain.About attack interruptions that exists currently in hand to hand combat if you actively grab the hand of someone in the process of swinging a sword at you the game says "The Attack is interrupted" i imagine it would work similarly for your bowman example if he does that. (and im not sure if that is already a thing as it may be, since firing bows does take more time in df then other things)
Hm, interesting, I have yet to be interrupted, so I did not know that until now.
Can Archers be interrupted when they block an attack or when they are grabbed before they release an arrow from their bowstring? From what I have seen, it seems that they send their arrows flying almost immediately and what is being calculated in moments is the reload speed and possibly the travel time of the arrow soaring towards its target.
I have no idea how to check this, so I could be wrong.
You can test it by doing it to a bandit or something, if you have high observer it will say "x is swinging their sword at you" or "x is attacking you" etc when you hit the attack key.
Also about entities, its all good. But now you will know what toady means when he says entity in a dev log or when someone says it here :) .
I was primarily concerned about every race not having the full 25 tile viewrange the Dwarves seem to have received as a blessing that helps with stealth and prowling about during the night—y'know, the things you mentioned to me about what made Dwarves the more optimal choice for Archery.In a world that was genned with bogeymen, you wouldn't be doing any night archery. I never did any until 2017(?) when I began genning worlds with bogeymen set to off. Rangers should be able to travel solo and sleep under the stars.
About training Dodging and Shield User, I heard something about other players using crabs to train those two skills because... they are weak or slow? I might try that out if I can find a shield and a beach with crabs.Some players will grind (using macros) skills versus crabs or other small critters as this is a shortcut to a statistically powerful character. As an experiment it is definitely worth doing.
Combat report spam can be overlooked.I imagine the combat reports where a critter blocks a crossbow bolt with his shield and follows up by firing his longbow instantly afterwards might seem jarring.He means it doesn't make sense to him to be able to use a bow well while simultaneously holding a shield, so he avoids it.
If the shield can be strapped to the forearm, I do not see why not.
In a world that was genned with bogeymen, you wouldn't be doing any night archery. I never did any until 2017(?) when I began genning worlds with bogeymen set to off. Rangers should be able to travel solo and sleep under the stars.
Some players will grind (using macros) skills versus crabs or other small critters as this is a shortcut to a statistically powerful character. As an experiment it is definitely worth doing.