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Dwarf Fortress => DF Adventure Mode Discussion => Topic started by: therahedwig on December 13, 2019, 09:18:11 am

Title: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on December 13, 2019, 09:18:11 am
So, recently nopenope asked toady how reputation works, leading to the types of reputation entry here: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Reputation#Types_of_reputation

And I was looking at the dfhack structures, turns out we sort of know what those 32 types are, it seems Quiestus found them a while back...

[snipped, just check the wiki page]

But what I am wondering now is, how does one attain these reputations. Some of these I know, some of them I can guess, but some are completely opaque to me, so I was hoping other people here may know?

As well, do we know if reputation has any effect in fort mode? Say, you bring your adventurer to a fort you're running?
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Fleeting Frames on December 13, 2019, 10:37:41 am
If you're looking for equivalents in fort mode, the 2. Buddy is marked as "Friend" in relationship screen, 3. is "Bonded" and 8. is "Friendly Terms". Never seen others (outside of grudge/lover/familial relation) appear outside of memory editing (though the name doesn't necessarily correspond one-to-one either, i.e. 7. is "Good for Business").
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on December 13, 2019, 10:44:18 am
Yeah, I think we can change the names on the wiki as well to represent the actual in game terms being used, these names from the memory editing are just a good starting point.

Ah, so the reputations do work on a per-dwarf basis then? So dwarves in fort mode will hold reputation within the fort even though it is invisible?

Makes me wonder if a dwarf with a great reputation is going to be recognized by your adventurer (assuming said adventurer was started in the fort)...
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Fleeting Frames on December 13, 2019, 11:03:00 am
In fort mode relationships screen, it shows the "strongest" option, provided there isn't something overriding it. I haven't tried retiring an adventurer after getting someone in fort to consider them nonstandard things and looking at the relationship screen of that someone (don't really use adv mode, but this seems like a test someone could do).

here's my notes from relations-indicator:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Kloker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169329.0) dev noticed that and went further with it, if you're looking for history of tracking down these things.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Untrustedlife on December 13, 2019, 04:30:03 pm
Yeah, I think we can change the names on the wiki as well to represent the actual in game terms being used, these names from the memory editing are just a good starting point.

Ah, so the reputations do work on a per-dwarf basis then? So dwarves in fort mode will hold reputation within the fort even though it is invisible?

Makes me wonder if a dwarf with a great reputation is going to be recognized by your adventurer (assuming said adventurer was started in the fort)...

Treasure hunter is for retrieving an artifact someone wants for them. I have done that many times.


Information source is what a spy thinks of someone who they use for getting details on things and usually the victom thinks they are friends.


Brigand is for demanding items from people when you walk up to them and choose to "exchange or take items" then demand an item . That gets you labeled a brigand (and gets labeled as a robbery in the rumors)

Hunter is when you slay a hist fig animal or megabeast.

Comrade is when you are both hearth people of teh same lord or they are your lord.

Protector of the weak is slaying bandits

I dont think anyone has ever called me a thief in game but potentially thats stealing an artifact? I will have to try

You can get a monster reputation if you make an animal able to be played as an outsider adventurer and kill folks.

And megabeasts that can talk consider you a "dangerous animal" if you ask them about yourself no matter what race you are

I have seen adventurers get labeled an enemy fighter post retirement if you are . a hearth who attacks the hearths of another lord.

Friendly fighter is a mystery to me

Intruder is a mystery to me

Phsycho is a mystery to me

Hero i'm not sure about, i know i have been called a "legendary hero" after getting big megabeast kills but im not sure exactly how that is figured out.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on December 13, 2019, 07:39:56 pm
In fort mode relationships screen, it shows the "strongest" option, provided there isn't something overriding it. I haven't tried retiring an adventurer after getting someone in fort to consider them nonstandard things and looking at the relationship screen of that someone (don't really use adv mode, but this seems like a test someone could do).
Ah, so the reputation system is basically how DF tracks non-familial relationships?

I've been playing a bit just now, and got hero rep for bringing down a nighttroll. As Toady's quote suggested, different histfigs have different reactions to a given event. Nighttrolls seem to be universally bad, so I got 'You are very brave', 'you are a hero', 'you are a great hero', 'you are a legendary hero' together with 'killer' for killing the sentient nighttroll. Presumably these are all different levels of the same hero table, but then it makes murderer and psycho even more peculiar.

I tried doing some lua printing of the reps, which seems to reveal that certain types of rep are tracked in different places, so the relationships rep is about friendliness, quarrelling, good for doing bussiness with, but bard and hero are only to be found at the entity level. Which is weird because I get feedback about being a bard or a hero before the cooldown period turns it into proper government wide rep that dfhack can see. Maybe there's another place where rep is temporarily stored, like the site reports??? EDIT: Nope, in unit (https://github.com/DFHack/df-structures/blob/ff790ff50ddc26cc90fd184cbd7c10964fa9b7df/df.units.xml#L414) somewhere...

I got 10 and 20 in hero and 1 in killer with different site govs for killing two nighttrolls, and 60/62 in bard for performing music several times in front of entity members. The cooldown seems to be about 1 or 2 days for a told rumour to be converted to government entity rep.

Untrusted, thanks! It seems that silverwing already updated the wiki there.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Superdorf on December 13, 2019, 08:12:17 pm
"Psycho" could maybe be this one:

(https://imgur.com/YL1OVGY.png)

Obtained by escalating an unprovoked fight with a civilian to No Quarter.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on December 13, 2019, 08:37:56 pm
Ah! Good job!

Meanwhile, I couldn't help myself and unretired my fort where I had too spread the rumours of my nighttroll slaying:

(https://i.imgur.com/D6LnIhU.png)

The selected entry is my bard adventurer.

So, yes, this does prove that there's an inherent connection between relationships and reputation. But this also shows how much the current relationship system in fort mode is so flakey, we should've seen 'considers quarreller' and the like much more commonly?
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on December 16, 2019, 10:41:35 am
So, we've gotten quite a bit further on the reputation page, with some searches through the dfhack github repo letting us know what hated and respected group are, and bonded is really only for animal training partners... After testing a lot, some reputations might be bugged (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=11193).

Missing still:

- Brawler, I suspect that this is what happens when you start a conflict without reason at brawl level.
- Psychotic needs to be verified.
- Enemy fighter and friendly fighter will according to the dfhack research (https://github.com/DFHack/df-structures/pull/200) results in 'enemy fighter' and 'on my side'
- Monster needs to be verified.
- Bully, I did get once, and I suspect this is what happens when you make people yield, this will be how they feel about you. My situation was that my hearthperson handled a bandit gang by brawling with them and telling them to yield constantly.
- Thief. someone needs to steal something, I guess?
- Intruder, still totally unknown.

I am currently 'cleaning' out my test fort(aka trying to get rid of all the visitors without killing them), so I can't check this stuff right now.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Superdorf on December 16, 2019, 11:52:47 am
This is what I get for starting a random brawl with someone.

(https://imgur.com/qEH14rx.png)

Notably, you only get this if whoever-it-is knows your name. Otherwise, you'll just get an "I don't know you".
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on December 16, 2019, 04:29:00 pm
Yes, histfigs just don't know what to do when they don't know your name right now.

I've added it to the wiki page, removing the verify. I think that proves that the other one was very likely psycho. Thanks! I think it'll help a lot as well when the next version comes out and we'll be puzzling out how interrogation works.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Rumrusher on December 17, 2019, 09:52:23 am
Yes, histfigs just don't know what to do when they don't know your name right now.

I've added it to the wiki page, removing the verify. I think that proves that the other one was very likely psycho. Thanks! I think it'll help a lot as well when the next version comes out and we'll be puzzling out how interrogation works.
yeah histfigs need a greeting to get a bare grasp of understanding you, and then you kinda need to tell them events that would alter their opinions of you which leads into rep/relationships.

though this is going into the idea of historical figure assign units and not the ones that don't have historical figures(which I call inhabitants, a named pick up from poking around dfhack and noticing they are tied to how the site spawns in new peasants to the site that seem to have no historical figure id tied to them) that end up getting one when you start a conversation with them which gives them a fresh historical figure that has nothing for memory including the relationships and reputation of others.

intruder is tied to the sites that has ethics ask for hostility to neutral or enemies which ends up if you botch the ask for identity check. it's the rep you get for the event of failing to give an correct identity and marks you down for hostile for the entire civ.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on December 17, 2019, 11:43:55 am
intruder is tied to the sites that has ethics ask for hostility to neutral or enemies which ends up if you botch the ask for identity check. it's the rep you get for the event of failing to give an correct identity and marks you down for hostile for the entire civ.

Cheers! I've added it.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Scruiser on December 17, 2019, 11:48:33 am
PTW.

I ran into these sorts of questions recently while trying to play adventure mode after around 4 years since I last played it... So I am interested in the answers to these questions and updating the wiki to make them more easily findable and useable.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on December 17, 2019, 08:14:07 pm
Erm... Stealing doesn't work anymore (https://bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6391), so not sure how to get thief now... That was... anti-climactic.

I did discover how poetry forms are learned(just listen) and that the monks you see passing in hamlets by are basically window dressing.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Rumrusher on December 18, 2019, 01:50:32 am
Erm... Stealing doesn't work anymore (https://bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6391), so not sure how to get thief now... That was... anti-climactic.

I did discover how poetry forms are learned(just listen) and that the monks you see passing in hamlets by are basically window dressing.
you might still get this by picking up an artifact... which includes books(but not copies).
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 19, 2019, 12:10:39 pm
It would seem that hated group, bandits and quest generated occupiers all have reputation tags, but they don't work because of the maladies of broken quests (a group that can never be routed from a site, unable to prove the bandit is dead without bringing its corpse directly to the quest giver and civilians reacting violently to killing bandits like they were also civilians)

It should probably be the case that hostile nations for reasons like babysnatching should also carry reputations as diplomats will spit at your own fortress members on visiting, but there's not much further way to validate whether it needs a response to invaders from dwarves in return. If you play as a goblin civ nation adventurer and walk into a dwarf town in peacetime, they'll always describe your race's worst assets like being consumed by hate so maybe the effective change is not present in fortress mode.

I havent actually tried trying to buy dwarven equipment though from a goblin adventurer's perspective, and whether the reputation system experienced by discounts to famous heroes is the same or whether dwarves mark up/make goods inacessible.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Untrustedlife on December 19, 2019, 12:44:52 pm
It would seem that hated group, bandits and quest generated occupiers all have reputation tags, but they don't work because of the maladies of broken quests (a group that can never be routed from a site, unable to prove the bandit is dead without bringing its corpse directly to the quest giver and civilians reacting violently to killing bandits like they were also civilians)

I havent seen number 2, i have always gotten the reputation from killing bandits.

However, Criminals (which are different from bandits ) do get impacted by number 3, they always think you are a murderer when you do that in a city and that bug has really impacted my enjoyment of cities.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on December 19, 2019, 12:57:33 pm
I think in the case of criminals you really need to force them to yield? (So, that means brawling, disarming, punching them in the stomach and K-shouting 'YIELD!' in combat) I've been able to get rid of criminals harassing people in a hamlet this way...
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Rumrusher on December 19, 2019, 05:19:02 pm
It would seem that hated group, bandits and quest generated occupiers all have reputation tags, but they don't work because of the maladies of broken quests (a group that can never be routed from a site, unable to prove the bandit is dead without bringing its corpse directly to the quest giver and civilians reacting violently to killing bandits like they were also civilians)

I havent seen number 2, i have always gotten the reputation from killing bandits.

However, Criminals (which are different from bandits ) do get impacted by number 3, they always think you are a murderer when you do that in a city and that bug has really impacted my enjoyment of cities.
well I figure that's because cities have ethics that react differently to events like those. and bringing a dead body straight to them with no context of the body would bring the worst logic into it.

like the way folks remember stuff the rep system isn't going to instantly give a reminder to folks of what you did each time you greet them, so to look like a hero you kinda need to bring up dirt on your kills, which means getting the adventurer to learn of the events the bandits did and telling those events to others to justify their death, like most folks in cities are close off from the outside world including the rumors they give out, they don't even know of the events they tell you or what creature the folks in the rumor are. so with my studies I mostly see the rep system as the relationship system and you need to butter up npcs and npcs tend to only know what is in front of them or know nothing at all.

like completing these rumors you're basically banking on if the person you tell this news to gets a grim satisfaction on someone's demise, which usually happens if said person is an enemy of their civ and or the person being told knows about the rep of the dead person before being told they died.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on December 19, 2019, 06:31:43 pm
BTW, Rumrusher, do you have any idea whether it is possible to use dfhack's lua api to find the relationship and knowledge about people and sites and events? Or have you been bodyswapping to find find this info?

I haven't really gone after thief yet, but did notice my adventurer took some books(I... forgot about them, honestly), and while this was in an overcrowded library and legends say the items were 'stolen', there is no associated entity rep. I have also seen a different histfig 'stealing' artifacts, but only being known as a legendary treasure hunter, despite never handing the artifacts over. I am going to try this with an adv and see if it makes me a treasure hunter or a thief... (It was a goblin civ, so it might be goblin ethics just mean there's no thief rep associated with these kinds of things)
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Rumrusher on December 20, 2019, 03:33:05 am
BTW, Rumrusher, do you have any idea whether it is possible to use dfhack's lua api to find the relationship and knowledge about people and sites and events? Or have you been bodyswapping to find find this info?

I haven't really gone after thief yet, but did notice my adventurer took some books(I... forgot about them, honestly), and while this was in an overcrowded library and legends say the items were 'stolen', there is no associated entity rep. I have also seen a different histfig 'stealing' artifacts, but only being known as a legendary treasure hunter, despite never handing the artifacts over. I am going to try this with an adv and see if it makes me a treasure hunter or a thief... (It was a goblin civ, so it might be goblin ethics just mean there's no thief rep associated with these kinds of things)

I only used body swapping once to confirm if there any differences between historical figure's bestiaries which surprisingly their are.
the rest was mostly from talking to folks to get an understanding on how they felt about the adventurer and checking their unit and historical figure data. I think Max went further into modifying it. the rep system seems to be an person to person thing and connected to fort mode relationship menu and not universally tied. that said having seen a werebeast become enemy of a bunch of sites I guess it's possible to end up getting a title like that for a site vs getting a rep for a person you just talk to.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on December 21, 2019, 11:37:07 am
Hm, yeah, that was my experience too. Pity, I had wanted to do a bit more book science in regards to whether a chronicle actually teaches the events, or only about the entity and it would've been nice if I didn't have to generate an outsider for that.

Anyway, I've tried stealing artifacts, books, and $items$ , and none of them gave my adventurers thief rep. Looking at the legends mode, prolific kobolds also don't seem to end up with thief rep... So my conclusion is that it's just not possible to really steal stuff in the current release... (Though, if you have an artifact, you might get shadowed by questers/guards while you walk off with it.)

I've added our best guesses at the remaining entries as 'needs verification' so that at the very least people have an idea where to begin testing.

BTW, you get protector of the defenseless(which I guess is low protector of the weak?) from people if you brawl with a bandit and completely fail to do anything about them, but get out alive. So it doesn't actually require killing anyone...
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: FantasticDorf on December 21, 2019, 01:27:20 pm
Quote
Anyway, I've tried stealing artifacts, books, and $items$ , and none of them gave my adventurers thief rep. Looking at the legends mode, prolific kobolds also don't seem to end up with thief rep... So my conclusion is that it's just not possible to really steal stuff in the current release... (Though, if you have an artifact, you might get shadowed by questers/guards while you walk off with it.)

Goblins do regard stealing as personal matters and therefore some sort of minimal or situational crime, but they aren't so much anybody's property for the piles of armor they have lying around that you can just walk off with and wear there and then instead of being caught with a trinket in hand by the right reputational antagonist to the theif reputation you've just gained.
So yeah it seems like it'd be unimportant even if it was implemented correctly. Could be relevant in the future for players who often reserve objects in retired fortresses for adventurers to pick up later, which doesn't alert the guards or make the citizens go hostile or report you to the authorities.

If you spawn in a unlaggy site that's mostly profitable (additionally helped by behind the scenes modding to give them some economy with caravans via using beak dogs or other creatures for trade) these piles are common between the lower statue rooms. The gear is kind of tacky but has a lot of cool personalised goblin art over it, so i recommend cherrypicking anything with expensive decorations in silver and gold, or that'll protect you at least from bandits. (probably your fellow goblins)
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: Superdorf on December 27, 2019, 05:47:49 pm
Spoiler: Intruder (click to show/hide)

Obtained (apparently) by "identifying yourself" to a hostile group.
Title: Re: Improving the Reputation Wiki page.
Post by: therahedwig on February 03, 2020, 10:03:37 am
Resurrecting this: I found that failing to flatter someone repeatedly got me the 'you're a flatterer' reputation. I also got 'preacher' style reputation from doing sermons. I wonder if comedian and pacifier also get rep-types?