Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Gameplay Questions => Topic started by: Ihtomyt on July 09, 2020, 10:16:09 pm

Title: Ocean Drownings
Post by: Ihtomyt on July 09, 2020, 10:16:09 pm
I've had the second dwarf die from drowning in the ocean now. It seems totally impossible for them to get out of the water. I am trying to train swimming with a "swimming pool" that is in between the dwarves and various tasks, and the populace is slowly gaining swimmer skill, but no one has gotten to 2 yet, just 1 so far. In any case, it just seems like there is no way to climb out once in, is this right? I'm now starting the very tedious task of digging staircases down into the blocks next to the ocean... is this the right way to deal with this (other than avoiding the edge, because a military dwarf jumped straight into the ocean this time...). I haven't said this about anything else in the game (I don't think, can't remember) but I'd even be willing to cheat this one... it doesn't make sense that all oceans are surrounded every square foot by walls instead of ramps of sand...

Edit: The below are (crude) side views.

Am I reading the map right? What it looks like to me is this:

X77
X^7

But is it actually this where the ^ is filled to 7?:

X^
XX

If it is the latter, why can't the dwarf climb out? There was no current this time caused by my errors with pumps.

In short, what is the deal with ocean beaches, and how best to deal with it?
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 10, 2020, 03:36:57 am
Ramps get covered by 7/7 water in water tiles, so that's perfectly normal. Ramps also allow creatures to get out of the water, but 7/7 water is always a danger. The waves sloshing about in oceans cause trouble as well.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: anewaname on July 10, 2020, 03:56:08 am
Building a full or partial wall is one way to stop them from getting too close to the edge. The wall does not need to be adjacent to the water's edge, just the ends of it.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: Ihtomyt on July 10, 2020, 05:34:45 am
Ok, so from your responses, it sounds like a strong swimmer should be able to get out and the latter diagram is correct. That's a lot of walls to protect the whole coastline! And I guess no ocean fishing allowed... I'll have to make a fish farm with pumps or something if I can manage it. Now how to get shells...
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: Ihtomyt on July 10, 2020, 06:39:43 am
Ok, well, I have a whole new problem now. I am getting cancellation spam trying to build near the ocean saying job item lost or destroyed. I assume this is because the ocean waves are producing mist? Is there a way to solve this? Nothing is really being destroyed, I'm almost completely certain, it just cancels the job every time there's a wave.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 10, 2020, 07:34:50 am
It's not the mist that causes problems, but if items are on the ground and hit by waves they're pushed around, which means they get "lost" because they're no longer in the location they were at when the job was taken (it was a big mistake to dismantle the embark wagon standing in the surf on an ocean embark many years ago...).
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: Garfunkel on July 10, 2020, 08:32:09 am
Also, you can't build wave breakers. DF ocean waves are eternal and unchanging. See where they go at embark and that is exactly how far they will FOREVER keep going. They will go through floors and walls, whether made out of stone or wood.

Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: knutor on July 10, 2020, 06:00:41 pm
Been awhile, I never liked the lag I got from waves, so I maybe out of touch, more than normal.

Why did Ihtomyt say, "no ocean fishing allowed"?

Can the player no longer build piers and fishing activity zones, off the end of them? I get surf/coastal problems, but we can still build out over that.

Have you run across any waterbreathing Hunters visiting in your tavern? Maybe a temple to a sea god, would attract them. Best of luck. Hope you get your Narwhal farm going.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: anewaname on July 11, 2020, 01:35:50 am
The waves will be blocked by the combination of walls and roofs. I always build "fisherdwarf cabins" at the ocean edge if the ocean is not dead. Walls, a door, and a ramp on the outside so the roof can be built; then water can only get in while the door is open. Or, give the cabin a tunnel into the fort.

The waves can move lighter things around (usually not dwarfs or ore, but I think logs will move and raw fish do move). I usually 'd'ump the stuff that is already moving in the waves, and use building materials from further off-beach.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: Ihtomyt on July 11, 2020, 05:23:15 am
Quote from: knutor on July 10, 2020, 06:00:41 pm
Been awhile, I never liked the lag I got from waves, so I maybe out of touch, more than normal.

Why did Ihtomyt say, "no ocean fishing allowed"?

Can the player no longer build piers and fishing activity zones, off the end of them? I get surf/coastal problems, but we can still build out over that.

Have you run across any waterbreathing Hunters visiting in your tavern? Maybe a temple to a sea god, would attract them. Best of luck. Hope you get your Narwhal farm going.

I am a newb myself, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but in my limited experience in this fortress, I am getting a stupid amount of cancellation of jobs trying to build near the sea. I was finally able to build a single structure, a windmill powered pump with simple walls and floors, but it required me to build a temporary structure around and above it first because the walls are hard, but the windmill was impossible, to build with the waves. It took half my fortress being on construction duty an entire season to build this 3x3x7 building with a windmill on top and constantly having to redesignate construction elements. That's why I was saying I'd honestly not mind being able to turn off whatever it is that causes this, even if it is cheating, because this seems totally broken. It probably isn't possible, part of the core game engine I'd imagine. I don't understand what was being lost trying to build a 1 block section of wall or floor... nothing has to be designed and set aside separate from the dwarf arriving with the block and placing it as far as I know, and no dwarf was near the structure on most occasions when the job item was "lost or destroyed". It's just a pain is all, and it makes securing the coast against dwarfs jumping in to their death because of giant monkeys and lizards a problem.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 11, 2020, 07:33:37 am
It takes a certain amount of time for a dorf to build something, and I imagine the block can get moved during that time. You have a corresponding situation with penetration of heavy aquifers, where building the protective walls result in frequent cancellations. In that situation, however, cancellation comes from there being too much water on the tile, but all work performed up to that point is preserved, so each tick actually spent building brings it closer to completion, while a a block that's moved while under construction results in "lost or destroyed", which means the work will have to start from scratch, so all the required ticks of building have to be consecutive.
The partially built "lost or destroyed" situation I'm most familiar with is when a troll topples a partially built wall in the caverns (because the dorfs were recalled to safety when/just before the troll showed up, leaving the construction partially finished).
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: Ihtomyt on July 11, 2020, 08:05:27 am
Well, now it's just complaining from me rather than gameplay "questions" but I still don't understand what is being "lost or destroyed". You are all saying the block is being lost or destroyed, but the block is not being stored in the area the waves crash through. Only the designation is in the wave. I don't get job cancellation building a wall somewhere that there is no wave. That is, unless pathing gets lost, but that's a suspension, not a "lost or destroyed" cancellation, which is not the same thing. I've never got a "lost or destroyed" and job just straight up cancelled message anywhere other than next to the ocean, no matter how long the wall sits there waiting to be built. To just say again, the block is not being moved or lost, at least not in the wave... only the designation is in the wave. And, I don't understand how sometimes they do succeed at building it if other times they fail. Very odd.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 11, 2020, 11:30:35 am
You get that message when it's "lost", i.e. not in the exact location where the dorf looks for it. You also get the message when the item actually is destroyed (fire, atom smashing, ...). You also get it when it's forbidden and then unforbidden, even if the job was suspended the whole time (but you get the notification of the dropped job only when trying to complete it).

I don't know how waves cause the block to move when it doesn't. I know, though, that miners carrying babies and working in sloshing 1-3/7 water tend to drop the babies a lot (with no harm done, as far as I can see), so they might actually drop the block and then consider it to be lost, but that's a guess.

I'm not defending the functionality, just trying to explain what I think the game is doing. The occasional success probably comes from occasional cases where waves "failed" to cause the block loss, so the building completed.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: anewaname on July 11, 2020, 11:36:20 am
In the announcements log, what is the message you are seeing for these job cancellations in the announcements log? "Item lost or destroyed", "Item inaccessible", "building submerged", or something like that.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: knutor on July 11, 2020, 01:48:10 pm
There is that shark effect, that scares people from the water, prolly even 1/7 deep. Does that have an announcement? Could check in u, for a Great White. Doubt thats it.

Blocks seem to get built faster than logs/stones.

My educated guess is it is orders, o menu. All dorfs doing stuff tends to swamp the player in announcements. Maybe turn off all hauling, on stone and log.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: Ihtomyt on July 11, 2020, 01:59:08 pm
The message is "job item lost or destroyed" and automatically the job is cancelled and the designation removed. I'm building lots of other structures simultaneously, putting up walls, stairs/scaffolding, etc. building workshops, etc. but the only jobs this is happening to are at the ocean where waves appear. I just actually watched it happen once, and there was no item or dwarf anywhere nearby. Then, I redid the job, and I also watched, and in the exact same spot, a dwarf came and built the thing (eventually) without issue.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: anewaname on July 11, 2020, 06:48:55 pm
That is the type of problem that waves cause. I'm saying this with the certainty of having seen it dozens of times in different forms.

When you are building things a distance from your mason's shop, and you 'b' 'C' 'w' to build a section of wall and are given the choice of building materials, if there is an item of the type you want that is less than 10 tiles away, something is wrong, and if you use that item in the construction, you should assume there will be a problem.

Note that waves will visually hide items for long periods of time.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: Ihtomyt on July 12, 2020, 04:30:53 am
That makes more sense for items that are nearby, so it is the item chosen to create the element of wall or what have you that is being moved or covered that is the problem. That I was able to fix by forbidding items or moving them away. Mostly that was happening with logs. However, it is also happening with blocks for stone which are not being kept anywhere near the waves. Why would a block of stone that is not anywhere near the wave become lost in the wave?
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: Leonidas on July 12, 2020, 09:09:49 am
Quote from: Ihtomyt on July 12, 2020, 04:30:53 am
That makes more sense for items that are nearby, so it is the item chosen to create the element of wall or what have you that is being moved or covered that is the problem. That I was able to fix by forbidding items or moving them away. Mostly that was happening with logs. However, it is also happening with blocks for stone which are not being kept anywhere near the waves. Why would a block of stone that is not anywhere near the wave become lost in the wave?
Are the blocks in bins? There's an old bug where a dwarf who wants something from a bin claims the whole bin, and then nobody else can use those blocks until the first dwarf gets what he wants.
Title: Re: Ocean Drownings
Post by: anewaname on July 12, 2020, 11:49:43 am
The bin problem causes the "job cancelled: item inaccessible" message, and it happens when dwarfs are adding items to the bins. Taking objects from bins does not lock the bin, only adding does.