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Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: cauaule fantasy writing on October 05, 2020, 12:48:30 am

Title: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: cauaule fantasy writing on October 05, 2020, 12:48:30 am
Dear Toady/Dwarf fortress community,

Hi ya! How ya doing? I have been playing DF and loving it. I have loved this community for a long time but have finally gotten into playing Fortress mode! But as I bisexual man I just wanted to now if Lgbtqia+ releationships would ever be added to the game? I would really liked to be able to have some gay dwarfs and some trans or non binary dwarfs if you could? I jsut really love this game and to me adding that would add some much to the relationship meqanic! Please consider it!

Sincerely,
Causale Fantasy Writing




Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Bumber on October 05, 2020, 03:37:50 am
Orientation's been in the game since 2014.

Gender's planned for whenever Toady decides to do more with souls or body transformations. So, possibly in the Magic development arc, if there's time.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: cauaule fantasy writing on October 05, 2020, 05:32:02 am
Oh thanks for the heads up!
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Fikilili on October 05, 2020, 01:47:35 pm
I can feel a storm coming on.

Yeah, orientations have been in the game for quite a while, and there's a chance that your fortress will be the home of a homosexual couple.
As of anything about transexuality or somethin', I'm not sure. I only seen Tarn mention it in a quick tweet in response to someone who played the game (or not, probably stopped by now), but it was like a quick response.
I dunno how transitions would be handled.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Nordlicht on October 05, 2020, 02:08:33 pm
With the 1400 cut-off I'd guess it's mostly choice of clothes.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Pillbo on October 05, 2020, 02:32:11 pm
With Dwarf Therapist it's pretty easy to see who in your fort is gay, straight, bi or asexual. Orientation applies to animals too.

With the 1400 cut-off I'd guess it's mostly choice of clothes.

Right now it doesn't seem that clothes are gendered in DF either, it anyone will wear dresses or skirts if they are around. I would guess it would only affect romantic relationships- unless there is some polymorphism magic in the world then I suppose anyone can appear how they want to.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 05, 2020, 04:18:29 pm
With the 1400 cut-off I'd guess it's mostly choice of clothes.
True. But moon snail people didn't exist in medieval Europe so there are gender issues (the pronoun issue Tarn mentioned in his tweet for example) to consider even without looking at what "real" humans/dwarves were doing back then.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Iä! RIAKTOR! on October 05, 2020, 04:26:20 pm
With Dwarf Therapist it's pretty easy to see who in your fort is gay, straight, bi or asexual. Orientation applies to animals too.

With the 1400 cut-off I'd guess it's mostly choice of clothes.

Right now it doesn't seem that clothes are gendered in DF either, it anyone will wear dresses or skirts if they are around. I would guess it would only affect romantic relationships- unless there is some polymorphism magic in the world then I suppose anyone can appear how they want to.
This is just male skirts and male dresses. All clothes exist as male version, except bust-halter.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Pillbo on October 05, 2020, 07:19:01 pm
This is just male skirts and male dresses. All clothes exist as male version, except bust-halter.

Where did you hear that? I can't find any mention of male or female clothing on wiki and I've never even seen a 'bust-halter'.  Googling "Dwarf fortress bust halter" brings up no results.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 05, 2020, 08:21:28 pm
This is just male skirts and male dresses. All clothes exist as male version, except bust-halter.

Where did you hear that? I can't find any mention of male or female clothing on wiki and I've never even seen a 'bust-halter'.  Googling "Dwarf fortress bust halter" brings up no results.
He means, "skirt" is an item worn by men in pre-1400 times (who weren't trying to dress like women), as is "dress".
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Pillbo on October 06, 2020, 11:02:23 am
He means, "skirt" is an item worn by men in pre-1400 times (who weren't trying to dress like women), as is "dress".

Skirts and dresses have been an item of clothing worn by men and women under various names for thousands of years, as it still is today. These are cultural distinctions not technological.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Nordlicht on October 06, 2020, 12:24:58 pm
I think the DF way would be to randomly decide for each culture in game which clothes are considered appropriate for men / women / children. Which are formal / informal and so on.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Azerty on October 06, 2020, 03:08:50 pm
I think the DF way would be to randomly decide for each culture in game which clothes are considered appropriate for men / women / children. Which are formal / informal and so on.

Semi-randomly, to avoid folks wearing only loincloths and freezing to death.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 06, 2020, 03:15:58 pm
I think the DF way would be to randomly decide for each culture in game which clothes are considered appropriate for men / women / children. Which are formal / informal and so on.

Semi-randomly, to avoid folks wearing only loincloths and freezing to death.

Procedurally. ;p
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Nordlicht on October 06, 2020, 03:54:38 pm
I think the DF way would be to randomly decide for each culture in game which clothes are considered appropriate for men / women / children. Which are formal / informal and so on.

Semi-randomly, to avoid folks wearing only loincloths and freezing to death.


Toady being Toady I would bet Clothes get a lot of values like isolation and what not, so they may choose fitting ones.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Urist McUristUrist on October 07, 2020, 07:52:14 am
Dear Toady/Dwarf fortress community,

Hi ya! How ya doing? I have been playing DF and loving it. I have loved this community for a long time but have finally gotten into playing Fortress mode! But as I bisexual man I just wanted to now if Lgbtqia+ releationships would ever be added to the game? I would really liked to be able to have some gay dwarfs and some trans or non binary dwarfs if you could? I jsut really love this game and to me adding that would add some much to the relationship meqanic! Please consider it!

Sincerely,
Causale Fantasy Writing

What is "ia"? Did I miss an acronym update or is this just a bait thread?
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Starver on October 07, 2020, 08:12:41 am
"..., Intersex, Asexual, ..." often. And/or "Allied" (*waves*?), but that's usually a second A or assumed to be in the +.


I can feel a storm coming on.
I remember the 'storm' from the whole partner-preference addition. Storm in a teacup, albeit a notable tempest at the time, and I presume all those who significantly cared (in a negative way) just went away or shut up about it.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: cauaule fantasy writing on October 07, 2020, 09:24:35 am
Hey everbody! New idea. It could be cool in adventure mode if you could be able to control your dwarfs pronouns.


   
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: cauaule fantasy writing on October 07, 2020, 09:25:19 am
New idea i think in adveture mode you should be able to control your pronouns.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Starver on October 07, 2020, 10:00:56 am
(We heard you the first time. ;) )

I think if you go the whole hog with the full suggestion from your opening post, that'd be a given. Set upon CharGen, at least. Dynamically during the game would perhaps be based upon the standard identity/personation elements that are being introduced (more for Reputation/Infamy reasons) with appropriate Caste support if you needed non-binary neologisms.And perhaps the odd 'magical' interaction when we get a full range of possible -mancing that isn't just necro-.


But remember that this is a world-generator/simulator, with a progressive nod to LGBTetc, rather than a sexuality-generator/simulator. (Toady isn't Fenoxo. Though has anyone ever seen them both in the same room?) There's at least as much reason to consider a good economic update (to satisfy the marginalised Luxuries/Gold/Barter/Taxation/Investment/Arbitrage/+ community) as a higher priority.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: delphonso on October 07, 2020, 10:11:05 am
(to satisfy the marginalised Luxuries/Gold/Barter/Taxation/Investment/Arbitrage/+ community) as a higher priority.

You forgot "Quotations"

I overall agree - I'm happy that homosexuality and asexuality are in the game, though my dwarves are all worked to death and never form relationships at all.

Choosing pronouns would be a cool addition and I don't see it being overly difficult.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 07, 2020, 11:43:57 am
I'm not sure I see the value in adding gendered pronouns or culturally mandated sex roles. It seems unilaterally better for everyone if it's just not something anyone cares about, ie, not implemented, rather than making some characters feel oppressed for the sake of letting them have an oppression story, doesn't it? There's no particular reason why it needs to matter what clothing items people are choosing, for example.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: GOTOTOTOE on October 07, 2020, 12:35:45 pm
im trans but considering that transness is a pretty recent thing all things considered i would rather just make the very concept of gender procedurally generated, with a general trend towards binary cultures but differing in where they draw the line, just like it is in real cultures. i saw a pretty great paper about this but i forgot the name
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: PetGreySquirrel on October 07, 2020, 02:52:55 pm
Honestly, I'm pretty fond of gender being almost a non-factor in DF, and I'm not really sure I want my dwarves developing cultural gender norms. I do find the idea of my dwarves becoming depressive or tantrum-ey from dysphoria kind of interesting, but, I'm not sure that's worth the trade-off of gender-based norms and expectations being included in the game (even if they're procedurally generated per civilization.)

It wouldn't be too anachronistic to include, not just because of magic and snail people and such, but, there are some known examples of people from... basically all points of history, that nowdays are generally considered trans (there is some murkyness regarding applying modern terms to ancient people, but, comparable and as close as can be found looking through a historical lens, like St. Marinos and such.) but, as far as that goes... a dwarf of whatever orientation and physical characteristics can already wear whatever, and fill whatever role in society, and there isn't much in the way of gendered language to start with... so I don't feel like it's really lacking at the moment.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 07, 2020, 03:02:02 pm
It wouldn't be too anachronistic to include, not just because of magic and snail people and such, but, there are some known examples of people from... basically all points of history, that nowdays are generally considered trans (there is some murkyness regarding applying modern terms to ancient people, but, comparable and as close as can be found looking through a historical lens, like St. Marinos and such.)
Pretty much all the historical examples can only be made to fit modern moulds by intentional misunderstanding of the context. For example, Marina, if she even existed at all (which is highly doubtful, as essentially all saints of the time period are likely to be works of historical fiction), is said to have lived as a monk, an office only available to men, because of her great piety; unless we had reason to believe she desired to be a man, instead of merely dressing as one as a means to an end, she's no more transsexual than Mulan. Making any such comparisons across history is patently absurd: the past is a foreign country; they do things differently there, and you can't trust the water.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: cauaule fantasy writing on October 08, 2020, 05:48:18 am
what if in adventure mode you should be able to choose your dwarfs Pronouns and sexuality. ( Is romance a thing yet in Adventuer mode? Been a while since I hoped into and done some advetureing)

Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: cauaule fantasy writing on October 08, 2020, 05:53:19 am
Dang it mistake thought I did not post my oringanl thing mistake sorry everyone( P.S how do delete messages sorry to bother)
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: delphonso on October 08, 2020, 06:06:25 am
No way to delete posts. You can edit posts and just put [deleted] or something.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Putnam on October 08, 2020, 06:49:17 am
im trans but considering that transness is a pretty recent thing all things considered i would rather just make the very concept of gender procedurally generated, with a general trend towards binary cultures but differing in where they draw the line, just like it is in real cultures. i saw a pretty great paper about this but i forgot the name

Yeah, I kinda feel that if there's gonna be gender there ought to be gender, i.e. a set of societal norms that tends to be but is not necessarily correlated with sex, involving differing expectations of decorum, clothing and so on.

I would not mind it if dwarves didn't have a concept of gender at all, if only because that's actually a rather common feature in dwarves in fantasy. Plus, I kinda find the idea of only finding "girl dwarves" or "boy dwarves" as opposed to just "dwarves" in human civilization kinda neat.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Egan_BW on October 08, 2020, 09:09:31 am
That would be a neat place to put default dwarves, I agree. Would do something to show how they're different from just being smoll diggy humans. It would probably vary a little bit more in less-default worlds, though.
The idea of procedurally generated gender roles seems cool, and also a little terrifying. To me, anyways.
I suppose this stuff is for the laws and customs arc, if Toady feels like tackling it.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: GOTOTOTOE on October 08, 2020, 11:51:19 am
im trans but considering that transness is a pretty recent thing all things considered i would rather just make the very concept of gender procedurally generated, with a general trend towards binary cultures but differing in where they draw the line, just like it is in real cultures. i saw a pretty great paper about this but i forgot the name
ooh yea
Yeah, I kinda feel that if there's gonna be gender there ought to be gender, i.e. a set of societal norms that tends to be but is not necessarily correlated with sex, involving differing expectations of decorum, clothing and so on.

I would not mind it if dwarves didn't have a concept of gender at all, if only because that's actually a rather common feature in dwarves in fantasy. Plus, I kinda find the idea of only finding "girl dwarves" or "boy dwarves" as opposed to just "dwarves" in human civilization kinda neat.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: ChaosPotato on October 10, 2020, 12:50:57 pm
No. Dwarf Fortress is based on medieval times, which happened WAY before gender became confusing.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Nordlicht on October 10, 2020, 05:37:25 pm
Do you not believe that men live contrary to Nature who exchange the fashion of their attire with women?

                                                                                                                       -Seneca, yesterday probably
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Eric Blank on October 10, 2020, 06:33:02 pm
The only society in vanilla DF that actually has any suggestion of gender roles are elves, with explicitly female-only queens and princesses.

It doesn't come up much, and the only reason I can think of dwarves or other races would want gender specific clothing for is bras for women, and that aspect of life is glossed over/ignored right now, one can just assume women in DF have things sorted out already.

Pronoun choosing would be easy to implement. But subverting gender norms means adding gender norms which is basically creating a social problem in order to implement a solution.

The only other plus to implementing gender/caste specific clothing I can think of is for modding, like, telling the game that serpent men in dwarf mode they don't have to worry about wearing pants/shoes, because right now they do and get bad thoughts for not being able to wear them, even though, you know, no ass/feet to cover up. So you could tell the game "castes with no stance body part or a stance part that is a tail category don't need to feel bad because they can't wear  shoes, creatures that use the humanoid_legless_neck body plan can ignore the need for pants or wear this fancy snake-skirt we provide exclusively for them, now quit bitching."
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: ChaosPotato on October 10, 2020, 09:01:36 pm
Do you not believe that men live contrary to Nature who exchange the fashion of their attire with women?

                                                                                                                       -Seneca, yesterday probably
haha no

                                                                                                                       -The entirety of Scotland.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: GOTOTOTOE on October 11, 2020, 07:44:50 am
No. Dwarf Fortress is based on medieval times, which happened WAY before gender became confusing.
gender has always manifested itself in different ways though, especially back then. gender changes
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on October 11, 2020, 08:09:21 am
Do you not believe that men live contrary to Nature who exchange the fashion of their attire with women?

                                                                                                                       -Seneca, yesterday probably

Are you sure Seneca really said that?  If so, which Seneca?

I'm asking because I looked in lists of quotes from both Seneca the elder and Seneca the younger, and couldn't find that quote.

It doesn't come up much, and the only reason I can think of dwarves or other races would want gender specific clothing for is bras for women, and that aspect of life is glossed over/ignored right now, one can just assume women in DF have things sorted out already.

From what I can tell, it looks like bras come in after the 1400 cut-off.  I think corsets might  too.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Starver on October 11, 2020, 09:19:01 am
ISTR (and am resisting the call to Wiki it), bras were invented at about the time that Rational Dress was coming into fuller acceptance, i.e. the earlier parts of the 1900s, and were originally two handkerchiefs and some connecting material in order to avoid the whalebone corsets and other restrictive bodice-like 'foundation garments'.

But there were apparent precursors in prior ages (not obviously inspiring the above emergence) including solid evidence for breast-banding (for less pain during active pursuits, rather than for 'drag king' binding down of awkward lumps'n'bumps of femininity) amongst Roman women. Essentially a minimalist 'boob-tube' worn (together with nether garments) in stark contrast to the stari naked Greek men of sport.

There might well be a number of classes of female-UB clothing practical to include. Some, though surely not all, of bustiers, bodices, kirtles, dirndls (had to check that spelling!) and various forms of (proto-?)corsetry. Being no real expert in clothing terminology, and vaguer yet about female garb (to protest only about the right amount, not too much) I wouldn't know the difference between half of them anyway.

But the "two hankies" thing I'm sure I heard of in the '70s (may be fashionably wrong, as of the time, and debunked since). The question to ask is whether dwarven mammary tissue is (outside of such scant evidence gleaned from the Raws) as prominent and sometimes precipitous as we expect to see in Earthly hu(wo)mans, or not. Other than bearing the children, sex and gender issues tend not to be obviously important in their lives. Perhaps this extends to upper-torso (or whatever domain applies) physiology.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: IndigoFenix on October 11, 2020, 12:25:46 pm
Realism aside, exploring different gender norms is a popular trope in fantasy stories.  One of my favorites (which seems like it could be right out of a potential future Dwarf Fortress) is the Stormlight Archives, where in the main culture of the stories, only men use weapons, but only women read and write.  There are individuals who break these rules but they are seen as strange at best or social outcasts at worst, except the clergy who are considered culturally androgynous and have their own social norms.  Also, women cover one of their hands, with various social implications of the manner in which they cover it (a long, closed sleeve is modest and conservative, a regular glove is suggestive, and a fingerless glove is raunchy).

I think procgen gender systems (or better yet, caste systems to handle modded species) per culture could be an interesting fit for DF, with varying levels of tolerance for people who bend or break these norms.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Pillbo on October 11, 2020, 12:53:05 pm
From what I can tell, it looks like bras come in after the 1400 cut-off.  I think corsets might  too.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_bras
Women throughout history have used a variety of garments and devices to support, cover, restrain, reveal, or modify the appearance of their breasts. Bra- or bikini-like garments are depicted in art of female athletes of the Minoan civilization, ca. 14th century BC[1] and there is some evidence to suggest that even from the Greco-Roman period women had developed specialized bra-like garments used for the purpose of supporting the breast. By the 14th century AD the proto-bra was in development in Europe and from approximately the 16th century AD onward, the undergarments of wealthier women in the Western world were dominated by the corset, which supported the breasts by transferring their weight to the rib cage[citation needed].

I also like that there are not gender norms right now, but I can see why people would like them. With procgen I can imagine people getting pretty peeved to learn that their dwarven civ's norms say women aren't allowed to craft/work/haul/fight making management of labors much more annoying. Even just needing to manage two different sets of clothes because men and women won't wear the same shoes would be pretty annoying.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Starver on October 11, 2020, 01:18:58 pm
...their dwarven civ's norms say women aren't allowed to craft/work/haul/fight...
Or must.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Putnam on October 16, 2020, 07:07:35 pm
The player-confusion issue is the most compelling reason not to give dwarves gender norms, yeah. The fact that this is a common trope in fantasy anyway is serendipity.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Fikilili on October 17, 2020, 08:37:33 am
Damn I wish my threads were that popular. Does homosexuality really brings that much debate among the community?
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: cauaule fantasy writing on October 20, 2020, 09:23:44 am
I think that having gender oppression mequaincs honestly is not a good idea. I think no matter the case putting gender norms as featuer of DF I think raises a lot problematic possibility's*. , I believe there could be mequaincs for Trans dwarves and non binary dwarves(I think as a cis person I don't have a right to talk on what specific mequaincs trans and non binary dwarves should have but I think that it should be talked about in future updates epically with the myth update on the horizon and all the entity's who could have fluid gender Identity's like fey,gods,angels, Etc. As well I think it would be good to reach out to those members of are comunnity) by maybe the same way that Gay and Ace Dwarves are generated? Then again I will always referee to the Trans and Nonbinary folks of the DF community for what they would see as the best way to do this or even if they should do this.
 


* Basically I think it would just hamper gameplay and add a mequaincs that if not imputed in a way that is extremely detailed and has some abillty to generate  systemic oppression in a really fine tuned way could just end up feeling very out of place and I am going to be honest just kind uncomfortable if not executed in a smart way. Not saying could not happen but it needs  to be done in a  very intricate fashion. Systemic oppression is not simple and while I do find having a Ewoyen vs the Witch king type moments a cool idea (or any interesting stories when it comes to gender oppression) I don't how those type of moment's would be reflected in game proper.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Fikilili on October 20, 2020, 09:38:49 am
This thread is just going to go on forever, will it?
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Nordlicht on October 20, 2020, 11:20:41 am
I asked your government, they allowed you  not to read it or post in it for the next ten years.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 20, 2020, 10:56:55 pm
This thread is just going to go on forever, will it?
Any reason why it shouldn't?

Toady's already remarked on gender roles, historical trends in discrimination and how much he wants to reflect that in the game, pronouns and of course already added gay dwarves years before anyone thought it was a necessity. Why should fans not be allowed to talk about this?
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 20, 2020, 11:17:54 pm
Toady's already remarked on gender roles, historical trends in discrimination and how much he wants to reflect that in the game, pronouns and of course already added gay dwarves years before anyone thought it was a necessity. Why should fans not be allowed to talk about this?
If anything, that seems like a reason why they *shouldn't*. What's the point of talking about it at the point when everything has been covered?
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 21, 2020, 01:08:49 am
Toady's already remarked on gender roles, historical trends in discrimination and how much he wants to reflect that in the game, pronouns and of course already added gay dwarves years before anyone thought it was a necessity. Why should fans not be allowed to talk about this?
If anything, that seems like a reason why they *shouldn't*. What's the point of talking about it at the point when everything has been covered?
Best shut down the Suggestions forum then, Toady already has plans for the next 30 years and doesn't need any input at all. Oh, wait, that isn't true...

--
In case anyone goes looking for this info, Toady's never made any definitive statements about anything in the game, including this topic. He has commented on it. Fans should too if they want to, else what's the point in the forum at all?
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: cauaule fantasy writing on October 21, 2020, 01:39:31 am
Well I personal feel like we should have the thread open just as space for Lgbtqia+ discussion when it comes to Df. It always good to have Queer spaces in any Community. Furthermore having discussion's about how queer Identity being represent in any media platform is extremely important and one of the great things about the forum is it's a platform for us to disscus these issues and allow queer mebers of the community to talk about these issues. (but it also dose't have to be issues as well it could be funny stories of Lgbtqia dwarfs or  anything relate to LGBTQIA+ DF). We may have resolved this issue but that doesn't mean that all issue are resolved.
i n short: Having a chat talking about LGBTQIA+ stuff is important in any community and having a thread open for it will only do good.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: delphonso on October 21, 2020, 03:30:59 am
Well I personal feel like we should have the thread open just as space for Lgbtqia+ discussion when it comes to Df. It always good to have Queer spaces in any Community.

Well said, this is a good point.
As it stands in the game, DF is in a pretty good place - gender is basically irrelevant, as most of us don't know if our favorite dwarf is male or female anyway because it doesn't matter. Homosexual relationships happen and are normal by dwarven standards. Marriage is blocked, but as I understand it, marriage is connected to childbirth, so not a big deal there, but could be changed, potentially. Asexual dwarves live happy lives among the rest.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Urist McUristUrist on October 21, 2020, 04:39:00 am
I have an idea for implementation of dwarf transgenderism that might be stupid. Applies to the current situation where beards are specific to males.

MTF dwarves need to have no beard to be happy and automatically shave.
FTM dwarves need a beard to be happy and will wear proesthetic beards, which have to be made out of wool thread by a clothier.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Fikilili on October 21, 2020, 04:41:30 am
I almost made a suggestion that could've justified a ban.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Urist McUristUrist on October 21, 2020, 04:43:39 am
I almost made a suggestion that could've justified a ban.
Then why are you posting about it?
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Fikilili on October 21, 2020, 04:50:18 am
I almost made a suggestion that could've justified a ban.
Then why are you posting about it?
Im scared and I need my mommy
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Nordlicht on October 21, 2020, 07:57:28 am
We all do.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Cathar on October 21, 2020, 09:20:06 am
Okay so a bit of correction :

Homosexual marriage is not blocked. Hell, a couple can be homosexually married because they don't want children while being in a heterosexual affair. It is exeedingly rare but it happens in game. Marriage is the only way to have children currently, but as far as I know it is temporary and out of wedlock kids are part of the plans.

As for homosexuality in the middle ages
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As for "church approved marriage" : it doesn't exist in the middle age. Marriage is a contract between two noble families and has abslutely no need to be sanctified. Adding a priest to a wedding ceremony is a modern fancy. The word of god, you see, was never really an absolute thing nor something that really enters into consideration when taking actual decisions that affect reality - and was certainly not an open door for clergymen to put their nose in a political contract between noblemen.

As for robes, they were male garments for most civilizations until the development of equitation. They remained gender neutral until recently. Clergymen still wear robes to this day. Robes are easier to make, maintain and replace than pants - with the caveat that they cannot be used on horse - so it makes sense that lowtech civilizations that use horsecarts instead of riding them would use robes instead of pants as a gender neutral garment.

As for transdwarves... I just don't understand how they would fit. Like, DF's dwarves are free to love and marry whoever they want. I'd go as far as to say, within the context of a developped magic system, I would not be opposed to gender-swapping options, but without that context, with no genderlocked garments and no gender roles, transitionning look like a bit without object....Or am I wrong somewhere?
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Pillbo on October 21, 2020, 11:38:43 am
FTM dwarves need a beard to be happy and will wear proesthetic beards, which have to be made out of wool thread by a clothier.

Bring on the wig industry and fun words like perruquier! And less fun like getting a bunch of perruquiers in the migrant waves.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on October 21, 2020, 04:56:57 pm
Out of wedlock kids was introduced in the Villains update.
(Although in player fortresses they're still adhering to the old ways. Presumably to be fixed once Villains is completed).
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: Putnam on October 22, 2020, 11:50:24 pm
Homosexual marriage is not blocked. Hell, a couple can be homosexually married because they don't want children while being in a heterosexual affair. It is exeedingly rare but it happens in game. Marriage is the only way to have children currently, but as far as I know it is temporary and out of wedlock kids are part of the plans.

out-of-wedlock children have been possible since 0.47.01 and the only reason any dwarf can get into a homosexual marriage is if they are, in fact, marry-attracted to the same sex.
Title: Re: Dwarf fortress Lgbtqia+.
Post by: TheBeardyMan on October 29, 2020, 12:38:48 pm
I have an idea for implementation of dwarf transgenderism that might be stupid. Applies to the current situation where beards are specific to males.

MTF dwarves need to have no beard to be happy and automatically shave.
FTM dwarves need a beard to be happy and will wear proesthetic beards, which have to be made out of wool thread by a clothier.

Female dwarves not having beards is moddable - the settings for giving them beards are even already in the .raw files, just commented out and left as an exercise for your first foray into modding. So not every player will be generating worlds where female dwarves don't have beards, and how transgenderism interacts with beards will need to be procedurally generated - it'll need to look at whether beards are a way in which the sexes of a race differ.