Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Topic started by: RoseHeart on February 09, 2021, 03:22:27 pm

Title: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 09, 2021, 03:22:27 pm
Quote from: Man of Paper
If this really bugs you so much, make a new thread with a new title for the same premise. 227 pages of a now-dead thread might be intimidating the few who might use it into not doing so (plus as you said, it references something most of us here don't have on our radar, so that doesn't help the matter), and if that gets good activity, then maybe we should revisit the idea.
So be it.

This thread is for:
- Discussing proposed game setups and mechanics
- Sharing game ideas you don't plan to make yourself to inspire others

Also forum game suggestions are allowed. Basically just post a game you'd like to play:
-rehost request
-new game suggestion
-idea you don't want to host yourself

Some tips for setup design:
- Consider copying one of the basic games to get some practice if you are a beginner. Otherwise, consider making a small game that wont last long and see how you handle it, before trying something more ambitious or unique. (RTD (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=19.0) are very easy to get started with)
- Keep your instructions simple, especially if it is a new type of game. Make it easy for your new players to understand what they need to do, and get to playing.
- Players who sign up may drop out, consider making your game flexible in the event that 1/4th to 1/3rd don't show up, so that when a player doesn't post in too long you can drop them and move on.
- If you burnout easily, schedule days off from constant updates, your players will understand if you give them notice and set their expectations. If you tend to abandon games be honest about it. A rule that says that the GM gives players consent to vote to replace an absent GM after a week is pretty good to save the game in an orderly fashion.

Spoiler: Setup Definitions (click to show/hide)

Old thread: Gaming Block (Game Discussion Thread) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=110287.0)
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: a1s on February 12, 2021, 03:17:35 pm
So here's a hypothetical game I refuse to run because I will get burnt out before it gets interesting:

Space Senate

The basics: players are powerful lords in a space empire of sorts. They get presented with problems and have to vote on solutions (and anything else they want to vote on). How many votes they have depends on how many planets they personally hold.

Planets fall into several categories:

Various Imperial projects may require food, ore, machines, armies, fleets or money and it's up to the players to figure out how to supply them. Planets may also be communally held (by the senate or a faction of players.)

Colonization: This is a 2 step process. The controller of a fleet may send it away on a mission of exploration (thus preventing it from combat use.) One fleet will find one potential colony per turn (that only the fleet controllers know of.) Each colony is of a particular kind (see planets) and costs 10 machines to settle. Fleets which are not supplied can not explore.

Conquest: Armies are assigned to a planet each turn by PM. It takes an army to take over a planet. if there are several armies present, they may fight until no disagreement about who the planet belongs to exists.
Fleets are also assigned to a planet (or exploration) each turn by PM. A fleet stationed above a planet may prevent any armies (except the planet controller's which are already there) from landing there. Of course if there are several fleets stationed above a planet they may also fight until no disagreement about which armies can land exists.
(So to recap: fleets beat armies, but only armies can take planets)

Combat: Works like in Risk. When fleets or armies fight, they roll a six sided die for each army/fleet.  The highest die on each side is compared and whichever side has the lower number loses 1 fleet/army (in case of ties no one loses) then the next highest die and so on. Fleets which are not supplied roll with a -2 disadvantage. If after a round of combat units remain on both sides, another round is automatically run, until only one side remains.

Starting conditions: Each player starts with 5 planets of their choice and 1000 Million Imperial Florins. Imperial Florins may be used for trade between players as well as spent/gained in some Imperial decisions. But are not directly produced or consumed by players.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: RoseHeart on February 12, 2021, 07:45:35 pm
So here's a hypothetical game I refuse to run because I will get burnt out before it gets interesting:

Nice work. I'll leave feedback to people that know large army games, but it looks cool.

Edit: Though I will say if currency every becomes difficult to manage, one idea is to copy those clicker-mobile games and have their be graduating types of currency. Like 1000A = 1B, and so on. Perhaps unit types could also do this, like so many ships = 1 fleet. With limits to the number of separate groups per player.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: ConscriptFive on February 12, 2021, 08:35:23 pm
So here's a hypothetical game I refuse to run because I will get burnt out before it gets interesting:

Space Senate

...

So is it a political worldbuilder or a sci-fi 4X?

The title and premise suggests a PvE political worldbuilder, but literally everything after that is 4X mechanics, with zero discussion of the political bits.  Either you need to flesh that out or just go straight PvP 4X.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: a1s on February 15, 2021, 09:27:14 am
I guess I could go pure PvP 4X. That would also have the benefit of a having a more defined ending (last player standing.)
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Sketchykeeps on February 16, 2021, 07:38:08 pm
So has anyone done a civilian arms race game? Like I saw Armories of Valwhatever but it seemed to fade by the time I finally got on the forum and it was still weapons based.

The idea would be the two teams take over a motor company circa 1912 and develop automobiles (probably the bread and butter), aircraft, heavy machinery, and maybe boats for the civilian market.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: a1s on June 28, 2021, 10:38:06 am
I want to run the following game, can anyone see any obvious flaws in its design?

Global Thermo-nuclear war.

Each player starts with 10 cities. Each must have a unique name.
Cities produce weapons, defense systems, and research adding up to 1 Billion Dollars ($1B) per turn each.
You may stockpile weapons and defenses, but all income must be spent every turn.
Players may post their turn in-thread, or send it by PM to Game Master (me.) in case of conflict, PM will be considered primary.
Players are allowed to have any sort of dirty dealings by PM (or e-mail, discord etc.)
Players are allowed to share technologies and send each other weapons and production (but they will, naturally, only recieve those next turn.)
If a player loses all their cities they are eliminated from the game.
The goal is to remain the only player standing.
The following technologies are available to research:
- The Bomb - free: allows construction of regular warheads.
- Bomber - $5B: allows construction of Bombers
- ICBM - $10B: allows construction of missiles
- SSL - $20B: allows construction of nuclear submarines
- Air Cover - free: allows deployment of Air Cover
- ABM - $20B: allows deployment of missile defense
- Anti-submarine opearations - $10B allows deployment of destroyers.
- Fighter Escorts - $10B - Makes Bombers cost an extra $1B, but reduces enemy Air Cover effectiveness to 50%
- MIRV - $20B - Makes missiles cost an extra $1B, but reduces enemy missile defense effectiveness to 50%
- SDI - $100B - design and build a network of sattelites allowing the use of SDI.
- Thermo-nuclear device - $10B: bombs no longer miss 10% of the time.

Weapons are:
Warhead $1B : may be dropped on enemy cities, destroying them 90% of the time.
Bombers $5B : Drop bombs on enemy cities. Are lost if they encounter air cover.
Missiles $2B : Drop bombs on enemy cities. Always lost.
Nuclear submarines $10: Drop bombs on enemy cities. Are lost if they encounter Destroyers.

Defenses are:
Air Cover 5B: protects one specific city from 1 flight of bombers per turn. may be redeployed to another city.
Missile Defenses $5B: protects one specific city from all missiles. can not be redeployed.
Destroyers: $5B destroy submarines, after they bomb one specific city. May be redeployed to another city.
SDI $1B/turn: protects all cities from everything, 50% of the time for one turn. (each warhead checked separately)
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Nirur Torir on July 27, 2021, 12:59:37 pm
I have the basics of an idea for a magic system. I might run a dungeon delve RTD with it.

Wizards have three resource pools they cast from. They can design any spell they want at the time of casting, using as many or as few points as desired. Every point used as a 50% chance to be depleted until the end of the floor, or a 50% chance to be refunded and remain usable.

The mana resource pools are Power, Control/Targeting, and Effect/Duration.

Power adds another damage roll to the spell, or makes other effects stronger. It also makes the spell harder to aim. I'm considering adding half a damage die to every spell, allowing players to spam Power 0 attack cantrips.

Control/Targeting affects spells relative to Power. If they're equal, a direct attack spell always hits, explosions can be somewhat controlled unless the party is scattered in with a group of enemies, summons will be stable and safe, and buffs/heals won't have unintended side-effects. Higher Control/Targeting might allow trick shots that bounce between targets to duplicate the damage, strangely-shaped explosions that won't hit friendlies, smarter minions, or buffs that have charges instead of a duration.

Effect/Duration can be used to add interesting effects to spells, or make them last longer. Napalm that damages a target or area over time, enchanting a sword, a temporary bridge, or being able to share senses with a minion.

I think I'd want summons and buffs to be allowed with Effect/Duration 0, but they'll only last for 1 turn. This might allow amusing combos like everyone channeling 0/0/0 spells to an ally who's going to cast chain lightning, duplicating the damage.
I don't know how long I'd like various duration to last for. Maybe 1 battle/2 battles/4 battles/until dispelled or end of floor, at 4 Effect/Duration points spent?
I don't like the names for the last two, any suggestions to improve them?

If I run this, I think I'd start wizards with 6 points and combat/caster hybrids with 3, all spread however the player chooses. Players would pick a class, use that to flavor their effects, and likely get penalized if they try weird things like casting a giant heal spell from pyromancy.
At the end of a floor, wizards get +1, with the option to immediately respec 2 points for free. Hybrids get +1 every second floor, with 1 free respec every floor.

I expect the system to give interesting choices like casting light/medium spells every battle, saving everything for the boss at the risk of not getting to re-use refunded mana, or starting the floor with long duration buffs and summons.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Strongpoint on July 27, 2021, 04:23:40 pm
I would love playing something like Wiki Wars but... with random MTG cards for determining characters' abilities instead of random Wikipedia articles. Scryfall even has a convenient way to do it, just going there - https://scryfall.com/random will do the trick
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on August 02, 2021, 01:55:09 am
I have the basics of an idea for a magic system. I might run a dungeon delve RTD with it.

Wizards have three resource pools they cast from. They can design any spell they want at the time of casting, using as many or as few points as desired. Every point used as a 50% chance to be depleted until the end of the floor, or a 50% chance to be refunded and remain usable.

The mana resource pools are Power, Control/Targeting, and Effect/Duration.

Power adds another damage roll to the spell, or makes other effects stronger. It also makes the spell harder to aim. I'm considering adding half a damage die to every spell, allowing players to spam Power 0 attack cantrips.

Control/Targeting affects spells relative to Power. If they're equal, a direct attack spell always hits, explosions can be somewhat controlled unless the party is scattered in with a group of enemies, summons will be stable and safe, and buffs/heals won't have unintended side-effects. Higher Control/Targeting might allow trick shots that bounce between targets to duplicate the damage, strangely-shaped explosions that won't hit friendlies, smarter minions, or buffs that have charges instead of a duration.

Effect/Duration can be used to add interesting effects to spells, or make them last longer. Napalm that damages a target or area over time, enchanting a sword, a temporary bridge, or being able to share senses with a minion.

I think I'd want summons and buffs to be allowed with Effect/Duration 0, but they'll only last for 1 turn. This might allow amusing combos like everyone channeling 0/0/0 spells to an ally who's going to cast chain lightning, duplicating the damage.
I don't know how long I'd like various duration to last for. Maybe 1 battle/2 battles/4 battles/until dispelled or end of floor, at 4 Effect/Duration points spent?
I don't like the names for the last two, any suggestions to improve them?

If I run this, I think I'd start wizards with 6 points and combat/caster hybrids with 3, all spread however the player chooses. Players would pick a class, use that to flavor their effects, and likely get penalized if they try weird things like casting a giant heal spell from pyromancy.
At the end of a floor, wizards get +1, with the option to immediately respec 2 points for free. Hybrids get +1 every second floor, with 1 free respec every floor.

I expect the system to give interesting choices like casting light/medium spells every battle, saving everything for the boss at the risk of not getting to re-use refunded mana, or starting the floor with long duration buffs and summons.
i like this. The ga,e sounds fun, if you’d like, I can help you run it and/or come up with monster ideas

I would love playing something like Wiki Wars but... with random MTG cards for determining characters' abilities instead of random Wikipedia articles. Scryfall even has a convenient way to do it, just going there - https://scryfall.com/random will do the trick
this seems cool too, how will you determine how many abilities characters start with?
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Strongpoint on August 02, 2021, 03:46:57 am
this seems cool too, how will you determine how many abilities characters start with?

5 starting cards, 1 ability per card is a nice starting point. What is hard in this kind of game is to choose a system of interpretation for stuff like card type (land, creature, artifact, instant, etc), what to do with mana, what to do with common abilities and mechanics.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Unraveller on August 02, 2021, 10:28:44 am
I suppose you could either set it in a MtG-like reality where players might require different colored mana as a resource for ceetain actions/spells, and tie basic lands to granting them that mana reserve, or a point thereof. Though this would be an extremely literal interpretation.

Otherwise it could affect specific traits/stats. Ie. Forests make your character more hardy, islands more wise etc.

As a side note, you could potentially tier cards off, like making legendary cards non accessible from the get-go and cost more to specifically acquire. Another note, some creatures would likely need o give abilities based on their general appearance/thematic vibe, (especially ones without abilities) otherwise you may end up with every character having flying and scrying and so on. Lots of duplicate keywords, just because that's the way of the game. Regardless, it could be neat.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Strongpoint on August 02, 2021, 06:05:33 pm
I suppose you could either set it in a MtG-like reality where players might require different colored mana as a resource for ceetain actions/spells, and tie basic lands to granting them that mana reserve, or a point thereof. Though this would be an extremely literal interpretation.

Scryfall has
61,583 cards
6,863 lands
28,669 creatures
4,347 non-creature artifacts
5,879 non-creature enchantments
6,857 sorceries
7,200 instants
882 planeswalkers

There is a good chance of not hitting land with 5 random rolls, giving everyone some default lands may be necessary if we make any land-based system.


Quote
otherwise you may end up with every character having flying and scrying and so on.

You overestimate how common keywords are. There are only 5 623 cards with flying keyword, which means NOT hitting a single flying in 5 random rolls is around 60% and something like scry (613) or lifelink (417) will be quite rare when you pull 5 out of 61 583
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on August 02, 2021, 06:29:04 pm
The comma is below k
61,583
Unless I misinterpreted something
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: BlackPaladin99 on August 02, 2021, 07:13:59 pm
I have the basics of an idea for a magic system. I might run a dungeon delve RTD with it.

Wizards have three resource pools they cast from. They can design any spell they want at the time of casting, using as many or as few points as desired. Every point used as a 50% chance to be depleted until the end of the floor, or a 50% chance to be refunded and remain usable.

The mana resource pools are Power, Control/Targeting, and Effect/Duration.

Power adds another damage roll to the spell, or makes other effects stronger. It also makes the spell harder to aim. I'm considering adding half a damage die to every spell, allowing players to spam Power 0 attack cantrips.

Control/Targeting affects spells relative to Power. If they're equal, a direct attack spell always hits, explosions can be somewhat controlled unless the party is scattered in with a group of enemies, summons will be stable and safe, and buffs/heals won't have unintended side-effects. Higher Control/Targeting might allow trick shots that bounce between targets to duplicate the damage, strangely-shaped explosions that won't hit friendlies, smarter minions, or buffs that have charges instead of a duration.

Effect/Duration can be used to add interesting effects to spells, or make them last longer. Napalm that damages a target or area over time, enchanting a sword, a temporary bridge, or being able to share senses with a minion.

I think I'd want summons and buffs to be allowed with Effect/Duration 0, but they'll only last for 1 turn. This might allow amusing combos like everyone channeling 0/0/0 spells to an ally who's going to cast chain lightning, duplicating the damage.
I don't know how long I'd like various duration to last for. Maybe 1 battle/2 battles/4 battles/until dispelled or end of floor, at 4 Effect/Duration points spent?
I don't like the names for the last two, any suggestions to improve them?

If I run this, I think I'd start wizards with 6 points and combat/caster hybrids with 3, all spread however the player chooses. Players would pick a class, use that to flavor their effects, and likely get penalized if they try weird things like casting a giant heal spell from pyromancy.
At the end of a floor, wizards get +1, with the option to immediately respec 2 points for free. Hybrids get +1 every second floor, with 1 free respec every floor.

I expect the system to give interesting choices like casting light/medium spells every battle, saving everything for the boss at the risk of not getting to re-use refunded mana, or starting the floor with long duration buffs and summons.
If you make this, I’d love to play.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Naturegirl1999 on August 02, 2021, 09:09:27 pm
I have the basics of an idea for a magic system. I might run a dungeon delve RTD with it.

Wizards have three resource pools they cast from. They can design any spell they want at the time of casting, using as many or as few points as desired. Every point used as a 50% chance to be depleted until the end of the floor, or a 50% chance to be refunded and remain usable.

The mana resource pools are Power, Control/Targeting, and Effect/Duration.

Power adds another damage roll to the spell, or makes other effects stronger. It also makes the spell harder to aim. I'm considering adding half a damage die to every spell, allowing players to spam Power 0 attack cantrips.

Control/Targeting affects spells relative to Power. If they're equal, a direct attack spell always hits, explosions can be somewhat controlled unless the party is scattered in with a group of enemies, summons will be stable and safe, and buffs/heals won't have unintended side-effects. Higher Control/Targeting might allow trick shots that bounce between targets to duplicate the damage, strangely-shaped explosions that won't hit friendlies, smarter minions, or buffs that have charges instead of a duration.

Effect/Duration can be used to add interesting effects to spells, or make them last longer. Napalm that damages a target or area over time, enchanting a sword, a temporary bridge, or being able to share senses with a minion.

I think I'd want summons and buffs to be allowed with Effect/Duration 0, but they'll only last for 1 turn. This might allow amusing combos like everyone channeling 0/0/0 spells to an ally who's going to cast chain lightning, duplicating the damage.
I don't know how long I'd like various duration to last for. Maybe 1 battle/2 battles/4 battles/until dispelled or end of floor, at 4 Effect/Duration points spent?
I don't like the names for the last two, any suggestions to improve them?

If I run this, I think I'd start wizards with 6 points and combat/caster hybrids with 3, all spread however the player chooses. Players would pick a class, use that to flavor their effects, and likely get penalized if they try weird things like casting a giant heal spell from pyromancy.
At the end of a floor, wizards get +1, with the option to immediately respec 2 points for free. Hybrids get +1 every second floor, with 1 free respec every floor.

I expect the system to give interesting choices like casting light/medium spells every battle, saving everything for the boss at the risk of not getting to re-use refunded mana, or starting the floor with long duration buffs and summons.
If you make this, I’d love to play.
Ditto (https://assets.pokemon.com/assets/cms2/img/pokedex/full/132.png)
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Funk on September 18, 2021, 09:35:19 pm
So i'm thinking of doing a Chapter Master Urist again, in short it's you are a space marine chapter master.
And we have space fantasy kitchen sink throw at the plot.

You're by the SG a Space Marine Chapter Master, head of a warhammer 40k space marine chapter an by the kitchen sink of SF, have hit a blender.
Yoda and Pilot argue, Han Solo and Jenna Stannis run the spice routes, Ka D'Argo arm wrestles Wolf...
Amd the the madness ypuare a lost 40k  Chapter Master.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: ConscriptFive on September 18, 2021, 10:16:56 pm
So i'm thinking of doing a Chapter Master Urist again, in short it's you are a space marine chapter master.
And we have space fantasy kitchen sink throw at the plot.

You're by the SG a Space Marine Chapter Master, head of a warhammer 40k space marine chapter an by the kitchen sink of SF, have hit a blender.
Yoda and Pilot argue, Han Solo and Jenna Stannis run the spice routes, Ka D'Argo arm wrestles Wolf...
Amd the the madness ypuare a lost 40k  Chapter Master.

Did you have a stroke?
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Man of Paper on September 18, 2021, 11:11:58 pm
I think I can translate:
An everything scifi fanfic with a focus on 40k space marines

Should still probably head to a doctor though, fam.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Funk on September 18, 2021, 11:24:41 pm
I think I can translate:
An everything scifi fanfic with a focus on 40k space marines

Should still probably head to a doctor though, fam.

Well bar the things i haven't got thou yet!
Star gates still on episode 3... and don't get me started on babylon 5, that's not been touched... yet...

No i have ideas! Mad under-spellczech ideas.!! 
(AKA pissed idea's)

What you want  a spellchecker? well that's getting ignored, red lines get one click after there once thou.

Really I'm dyslexia with spelling so its not going to be that great a level of accuracy.

But with the space fantasy kitchen sink thrown at the plot so level of accuracy are in the gutter, were not dealing with the how can the Millennium Falcon fight X but the fun of getting thing.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Magmacube_tr on September 19, 2021, 12:06:52 am
The competitive evolution game. But harsher and harder.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: a1s on September 20, 2021, 09:15:32 am
I'd like to do a Risky Ventures type game, set in space and involving procedural exploration of space, as new tech allows further journeys. But I'm afraid it might be too much for players (and for the GM...) What are your thoughts?

Quote
Risky Ventures: Final Frontier
a.k.a. Risky Ventures In Space

For generations space exploration had been the prerogative of big national agencies. The Outer Space Treaty explicitly prohibits any nation from claiming a piece of space, however it does not deny such rights to private citizens. Welcome to the private sector, astronauts!



This games is based loosely on Kashyyk's Risky Ventures (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176282.msg8135222) and evictedSaint's  Interstellar Mercantilism (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177258) but different from both of them.
A short summary of the rules:
Anyone can join. You will possess 500 credits (^).
You may bid on ships and enterprises.
Ships can be sent on journeys to a location of choice. They may do one or more missions there and conduct trade.
Ships may experience disasters of various severity during a voyage.
Resources can be bought and sold at the market. Prices fluctuate.
New locations and other actions will be unlocked as the game progresses.

I will (try to) update the thread regularly with news of returning ships, changing market prices, and other events. Each update corresponds to a year of in-game time.

Anyone may join at any time. Players are expected to keep track of their own resources, as follows:

Quote from: Example
NUKLEAR SHIPPING AND SONS INC(TM)
Assets:
^500
small warehouse (0/10)
Expertise: Navigation

Quote from: EXAMPLE2
NUKLEAR SHIPPING AND SONS INC(TM)
Assets:
^321
2 shares of the ship "Number one"
1 share of the Shipyard "getcher ships here"
2 units of helium-3
small warehouse (2/10)
Favor with UN: 1
Expertise: Manufacturing


Rules

Lazy Fair
I expect everyone to keep track of their own assets. That includes posting your Company Details at least once per turn (think of it as an annual report to the shareholders.)
Bounties may be given out to people who find a lot of errors in other people's assets calculations. Demerits may be given to particularly careless (or malicious) players.

Actions
Anything you do to the game-state (such as buying or selling on the market, accepting missions, bidding in auctions, etc.) must be prefaced by the string "ACTACTACT" or it doesn't happen.
Things that don't change it (such as negotiating, signing player-to-player contracts, and general shit posting) should not have the words actactact (even in lower case.)

Joining the Game
We are still open to new sign ups. When you join, you will start with 500 credits, an area of expertise and a small warehouse. You can use the following format for your company details:

Code: (Company Details) [Select]
[spoiler=<Company Name>]
Funds: ^500
Expertise: Extraction
[/spoiler]

Expertise
All companies have one thing they are better at, such as:
  • Extraction: amount of goods extracted is increased by 10%  (rounded to the nearest integer)
  • Investing: Any leftover credits bring in a 1% interest per turn (rounded to the nearest integer)
  • Navigation: reduce the probability of a disaster during flight by 50%
  • Manufacturing: ship production costs are reduced by 10% (rounded to the nearest integer)
  • Research: research costs are reduced by 25%  (rounded to the nearest integer)
  • Something else: pitch it to me and I will try to add it in a balanced way


Making Money
To start your journey towards owning a solid gold mansion, you need to find a revenue stream. The most traditional is to own one or more shares in a ship, which flies off into space and either completes missions or delivers cargo to Earth. You can also own shares in productive enterprises or offer financial services, such as loans and insurance.

Buying a Ship
At the beginning of the game, ships can be bough at auction. Players owning shipyards may also produce ships for sale or personal use.

Favours
Every time you do something for the benefit of the planet rather than yourself (such as sponsoring exploration, donating to the treasury and populace, etc) you will gain Favour. This is a very free form currency, that you can use to get the UN to do stuff for you. If you've got an idea for it, make the suggestion and see what the UN says.

Bankruptcy
Players may go bankrupt in two different ways.
Voluntary:  A player either no longer wishes to play or is aware of their impending involuntary bankruptcy, and declares their only action that turn as "I declare bankruptcy".
Involuntary:  Either a player owes a debt they cannot pay to the Home Market (the GM), owes a debt they cannot pay to another player and cannot reconcile their agreement, or has gone afk for more than 3 turns.

In the event of a player going Bankrupt, all of their remaining assets are seized and Auctioned off to the remaining players the following turn (see: Auctions).  The funds generated from the Auction are then used to pay off as much of their remaining debt as possible, divided equally among any and all debtors and paying out to a maximum of the amount owed to each.

Kingmaking
"Kingmaking" is the process by which a losing player throws their support to another player, thus giving them an advantage over their opponents.  Players attempting to "give away" their assets before declaring Bankruptcy in order to avoid paying their debts will be caught by the Securities and Exchange Commission, have those transactions rendered null, and go through standard Bankruptcy and Auction normally.  There's no hard-and-fast rule for triggering the Kingmaking rule: it's obvious when Kingmaking is happening, so I’ll be quite unhappy if you give me more work to do.

Auctions
In order to participate in an Auction, players will post the AMOUNT they are willing to purchase and the PRICE they will pay per each unit.  The HIGHEST PRICE posted in an unedited post will receive first pass at the available shares, followed by the NEXT HIGHEST and so on.  EDITED POSTS are INVALID for posting bids.  In the event of two equally priced bids, priority will go to whoever posted the bid earlier.  Players may only ever have 1 active bid on a specific auction item at a time, which will always be their highest priced bid – with secondary priority on the share amount. Players may have multiple bids on different items at once.

Missions
Missions are exactly what it says on the tin: tasks you can do to earn some credits. Usually this will require you to deliver cargo/people to places. Missions operate like reverse auctions- whoever offers to do the mission for the least money will get the job. Be aware that some missions are time sensitive or involve unique cargo- failing them may incur a penalty (stated in the mission brief.)

Contracts
Players may enter into contracts with one another.  These contracts may stipulate shares of a ship, executive powers, transfer of credits, or anything else players are capable of conceiving.  Players are trusted to honor contracts between themselves, but should the need arise the GM may be asked to arbitrate and enforce contractual obligations.

In order for a contract to be valid (from a GM’s perspective), it must have:
  • A unique title.
  • Some action or agreement.
  • The signature of all parties involved.

Ships stats
Ships have:
  • Upkeep: the sum of money that must be paid each turn to keep the ship running, even if it's chilling on Earth.
  • Tonnage: the weight of the ship. This is informational, for the next stat,
  • Fuel use by destination: ships expend varying amounts of fuel per ton to reach destinations in the solar system. This is expressed in credits and includes cargo tonnage + ship tonnage.
  • Flight time by destination: This is expressed in turns (years).
  • Max. Fuel: the maximum amount of fuel you can put in a ship (effectively cargo capacity)
  • Max. Life support: how many crew/passengers a ship can carry

Ship Building
Ships are built in Shipyards. Each shipyard has a maximum tonnage of ships it can build. Shipyards cost ^100*tonnage to construct and ^100*new tonnage - 90*old tonnage to upgrade (in other words you need to pay the difference plus an additional ^10 per old tonnage).
Ships cost a combination of goods (raw materials) and credits (salaries) to build. You can only build ships if you have the blueprints for them, which leads us to:

Ship Research
Ship research is carried out in the following way:
Players either choose to create a new design or refine an old one.
When creating a new design set a budget and pick 3 traits to focus on :
Either variable :
  • Upkeep: grows with ship complexity, but can be lowered.
  • Tonnage: grows with ship complexity but can be lowered.
  • Fuel Efficiency: how much fuel per ton it takes to reach a destination.
  • Fuel Capacity: how much fuel a ship can carry
  • Life support: how many people a ship can carry
  • Safety: reduces the probability of a disaster. Hidden, but can be improved.
  • Speed: reduces the amount of time the flight takes (note: flights take a whole number of turns and can’t be faster than 1 turn)
  • Production Cost: reduces the (fixed) amount of credits it takes to build a ship
  • Production Materials (specify): either reduces the amount of exotic good needed (possibly to zero) or increases the amount of  specific good (reducing the need for more exotic ones)
Or special (always succeed, but might increase upkeep/tonnage):
  • Single use: reduces tonnage at the expense of always being destroyed at the end of a flight
  • Exploratory: can scan other planets to know what can be mined there
  • Other: Want your ship to be e.g. habitable by crabs? Ask the GM!

When upgrading an old design, pick 1 trait to improve (or add in case of specials) the budget increases as a fibonacci sequence (you know, 1x initial budget, 2x initial budget, 3x initial budget, 5x initial budget, and so on.) This means generally diminishing returns, however other traits will not get worse, so there’s that.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: BlackPaladin99 on December 29, 2021, 12:51:10 pm
The competitive evolution game. But harsher and harder.
With magic.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review
Post by: Iris on January 16, 2022, 10:59:40 pm
Since my suggestion game  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179422.0)isn't moving quickly enough to occupy all my time, I've been thinking of additional creative projects to focus on. Unfortunately, I've been having trouble focusing on a single one or refining them past the "It would be cool if..." stage. I'm putting them here to figure out which one to do and refine mechanics, or, failing either of those, inspire someone else when I inevitably decide none of them are worth pursuing.

The first would be centred around a system for building spaceships. I'm not sure of the specific system yet, or what the ships would be used for - although it would probably end up as a space combat game, I'm open to considering different ideas. At first, I thought of adapting the Battleships Lite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=176838.0) or Battleships IN SPACE (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177039.0) rules for the task, but later I also started looking at the rules in GURPS Spaceships and the ship creation rules of 2300 AD's Star Cruiser.

The second idea is much more tentative, if such a thing is possible. I've been thinking of a game (or, perhaps, a story) set in an original High Middle Ages-inspired setting with very strictly-controlled magic and a focus on grand works. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to worldbuild very effectively and the setting fails to be compelling, and I am unsure what kind of game to run.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 08:09:07 am
I don't usually play forum games and just host them. My question is for those that lean far more towards making than playing, what games will you actually make an effort to play?
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: MeimieFan88 on February 04, 2022, 08:40:33 am
I don't usually play forum games and just host them. My question is for those that lean far more towards making than playing, what games will you actually make an effort to play?
I'm more of a maker/host myself too (or at least have been) but I'm almost always up to play RTD-esque games that don't require too much reading of rules. I also like guessing games like Who Am I. Some games like suggestion games I would be into but require a lot of pre-reading to do, which makes it hard to jump into especially if they have been ongoing for a while. If there were suggestion games where you could just jump in without needing to know what was going on, I'd definitely be interested. So yeah basically I like a lot of things but stuff where you need to backread a lot or have a ton of rules are hard to get into.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 08:49:55 am
I don't usually play forum games and just host them. My question is for those that lean far more towards making than playing, what games will you actually make an effort to play?
I'm more of a maker/host myself too (or at least have been) but I'm almost always up to play RTD-esque games that don't require too much reading of rules. I also like guessing games like Who Am I. Some games like suggestion games I would be into but require a lot of pre-reading to do, which makes it hard to jump into especially if they have been ongoing for a while. If there were suggestion games where you could just jump in without needing to know what was going on, I'd definitely be interested. So yeah basically I like a lot of things but stuff where you need to backread a lot or have a ton of rules are hard to get into.
Note to self: Notify new players of Gladiator Manager that you don't need to read the story at all to hop in and fight.

For me, games I had to play were often things simple, they have to be for me as I need to understand how things work to enjoy them, at least on a basic level. If the GM has a 'magic formula' that happens behind the scene for odds I don't mind. But I guess other than that, I am just a pollen collector, trying this or that, once I got a solid grasp on it I would rather host something using what I learned (and apply other things I liked to it) than find more of the same.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: MeimieFan88 on February 04, 2022, 09:07:51 am
Yeah tbh backreading is the biggest deterrent for me, I don't want to have to read through a bunch of pages before being able to play. I definitely agree with you on simpler games having more appeal. Games with complex/large rulesets make it difficult to know what the game is about - kinda similar to having to backread, I don't want to spend a bunch of time trying to figure out how to play the game before being able to play. Imagine sitting there reading rules for 20 minutes and then deciding that the game isn't for me. I don't have the time/patience for that! I want to be able to understand how to play hopefully within minutes or even seconds of looking at the thread. So I try to do the same with games I host (though I've been kind of MIA from GMing lately) which is to make them easy to understand what to do / how to play and not require much reading of rules / previous updates in order to join in. I should mention that I'm not trying to tear down games that do these things, these are just my personal preferences so I apologize if I sound overly opinionated. I'm just not much of a reader and large amounts of it drain me pretty quickly (yes I know, the irony of it after writing a wall of text like this).
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 09:18:55 am
Quote
Imagine sitting there reading rules for 20 minutes and then deciding that the game isn't for me. I don't have the time/patience for that!
This made me lol, considering what game forum we're on ;p

My tactic is to sneak the rules in over time. Well not really a tactic cus those are improvised games and half of those decisions are a direct response to the players.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: MeimieFan88 on February 04, 2022, 09:32:09 am
My tactic is to sneak the rules in over time. Well not really a tactic cus those are improvised games and half of those decisions are a direct response to the players.
Yeah that's totally fine and different because that's taking place as the game is progressing and a result of the gameplay going on. It's kind of a part of the current update and relevant to game play that's already happening. It's when you have to read a bunch of set rules / past updates before joining that deters me.

Also I wanted to say that it would be extremely helpful if games did mention somewhere that new players didn't need to read previous updates in order to join in, or otherwise some simple set of instructions in guiding new players to join - because it is sometimes hard to tell whether that is the case and I will likely just skip joining if it looked dubious to me whether catching up was required.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 09:37:11 am
Yeah, otherwise it becomes hard to warm up new players to the rest of the group. There's the opposite issue, where a game can be too shallow, and lose its' appeal too quickly.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: MeimieFan88 on February 04, 2022, 09:48:30 am
I feel like in a forum game you don't need complex rules to keep things interesting. The beauty of forum games is the wide open creativity that players and GMs can bring. If it was a video game it'd be different. I actually like really complex video games / card games / board games. But with forum games I just want to do dumb stuff and see what happens. But of course you could also run a card / board game on a forum. I'm mostly talking about a specific type of forum game I guess, where players could do ''whatever they want'. If we're talking about strategy / card / board game design that's run on a forum it's a whole entire other thing and my points would not really be valid at all.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 09:58:01 am
Ah yes, 'do whatever ya want' forum games, those are explosive for the game host.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: MeimieFan88 on February 04, 2022, 10:06:08 am
Yeah those are some of my favorites to both host and play. And as a player, the easier it is to jump in, the more likely I will. Simple RTDs really hit the spot for me. SGs/ISGs would be great if they didn't require backreading, which isn't very typical for such games unfortunately.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 10:10:26 am
Focus and Level of Detail. Focus is what the game will even let you do. LoD is what the GM will bother to track. Of course there's the option to make it a limited game that ends before it becomes too much. Or some combination of these, and perhaps other methods.

Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 10:21:17 am
Then there's games that don't end. I've tried a few times on here to make a medieval mmo for instance. There's extremely simple 'play by post's that only need the initial setup, and there are a few other methods FallacyofUrist were discussing a few years ago.

Eh, but I'll never be taken seriously on these forums. Not until I complete more games (I've been doing better) and get rid of my Patreon or any intentions of monetization (a whole conversation in and of itself). I also can be emotional. But as far as not completing games, sometimes I look too far ahead, and I feel more interesting existing mentally in the future than doing the work in the present. If I take this too far I get to a point of satisfaction where the actual seeing it through is no longer interesting, like a puzzle I've already finished in my mind.

What's brought me back to the real world is to remember the saying "no plan survives the battle" so it's worth seeing if I was right.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: MeimieFan88 on February 04, 2022, 11:09:15 am
I tend to like a medium amount of focus. It's fun to roleplay as a character and do things that are somewhat within reason. Too wide of a focus and things get a little too abstract. Too narrow and it can feel too limiting. LoD I'm not picky about - it's nice to have some toys from the GM to play with but ultimately as a player I'm sort of keeping my own track as well.

Seems like the general case that most RTDs / SGs end without an official ending. I actually tried a game where I had a set amount of turns before the game would forcibly end (it was supposed to last 13 turns I believe) but interest was lost even before it got there lol. I think it can be an interesting idea to try to force a conclusion though, not enough of these things reach an official end!

On the topic of monetization, I wish it were possible for forum games to be a viable business haha. I'm not sure if it can be atm. But if it did happen, I think the best way is for players and GMs to both be getting credit, ideally by a paying audience. I feel that players can put in an amazing amount into a game, so the idea of players paying a GM seems unbalanced to me. Just the two cents I've thought about on this topic. If the game is interesting enough for people to want to spectate in some way, I think such a thing is possible. Forum games have incredible potential to create stories and games beyond what other mediums can offer, I would love to see it grow as a potential industry.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 11:27:44 am
It would be interesting to have players compete for a cash prize!

Makes me think of old Nickelodian game shows I watched as a kid. Patreon at least is targeted at the audience. When I first joined these forums as GameBoyBlue, I had presented a game that had a small cent fee. Really it was a bad idea in every reason possible. Even if it succeeded, it would have been less than $10 for up to 3 months off effort, I was thinking phone app store game prices. I was attracted to an entry fee in relation to an escape room admission cost; or the StarWars 2-day hotel as a contemporary comparison. I think if it's really going to work though, it does have to be aimed at the audience and I think the best model is the highly successful Webcomics and their Patreons.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 11:33:21 am
LoD I'm not picky about - it's nice to have some toys from the GM to play with but ultimately as a player I'm sort of keeping my own track as well.
This gives me shivers. The boards I came from were more familiar with RP like that, preferring the clockwork machinery of a defined game, I made clear my efforts were not just RP, but RPG, a game with rules. Though I came to appreciate that even the 'lawless' RP had some traces of them, with terms like 'godmoding', and...well godmoding.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: MeimieFan88 on February 04, 2022, 11:49:15 am
Yeah I think something like webcomics is the way to go for forum games. It can't really be a zero-sum game where the revenue is generated by the participants. I mean it can be but I don't think that's the way to go for a lot of types of games. You can do it with a pure strategy game, but it would end up being kind of like a poker tournament or something. Much better if the 'prize pool' is generated by the audience rather than the participants. It kind of depends on what people like to watch. But then we are getting into the realm of game shows and video game tournaments, which isn't exactly the forte of forum games imo. Anyway I have no idea how it may be doable but I do think forum games have something special to offer. Maybe a web comic is exactly the way to go... the crazy ideas you see in forum games you don't really see anywhere else lol.

LoD I'm not picky about - it's nice to have some toys from the GM to play with but ultimately as a player I'm sort of keeping my own track as well.
This gives me shivers. The boards I came from were more familiar with RP like that, preferring the clockwork machinery of a defined game, I made clear my efforts were not just RP, but RPG, a game with rules. Though I came to appreciate that even the 'lawless' RP had some traces of them, with terms like 'godmoding', and...well godmoding.
Well, I just meant that if the GM wasn't taking certain details into consideration, I might still keep track of it myself, for RP purposes mostly, and refer to it even if it's just a 'flavor text' type of reference. I don't mean forcing my will on the status of my character or anything like that, unless the game allowed for it of course.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: Iris on February 04, 2022, 11:50:42 am
I'd like to put my own two cents on the situation. I am not particularly picky on which forum games I play: I love roleplaying, more basebuildly/simulationist/strategy-type games (like Risky Ventures, Arms Races, or perhaps that alchemy game Robo did some time ago (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179403.msg8341466#msg8341466), though this isn't an all-inclusive list) and SGs and SPAMS, especially those that are written well. What I struggle with are RTDs and godgames - without a clear goal in mind, I tend to... flail.

Monetization of games is a complex topic. I know there is a large proportion of people that strongly believe that all forum games should be free, and I feel like it is a hot-button issue that is best left untouched. I, however, do agree with several of the points that Meimie brought up. I enjoy writing and playing games because they are a collaborative experience between each player and the GM, and this element just isn't present in other forms of entertainment. It is this part of it that keeps drawing me back to them.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 11:52:55 am
the crazy ideas you see in forum games you don't really see anywhere else lol.
sigged.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: MeimieFan88 on February 04, 2022, 11:57:19 am
XD
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 12:04:07 pm
I enjoy writing and playing games because they are a collaborative experience between each player and the GM, and this element just isn't present in other forms of entertainment. It is this part of it that keeps drawing me back to them.
here, here

I used to want to design video games, but I realized I didn't have the discipline to take my coding past a surface level. Sooper easy to use tools let me get a little further: Game Maker, RPG Maker, map and scenario editing tools in games, Little Big Planet, (PlayStation Dreams looks cool) so of course forum games and that zero wall to get to players that was appealing, the maintanance of actually hosting is a whole new effort, though like you said Iris it can have its' own rewards.

I really admire forum game host whores (said with love and respect) like Piecewise. Mastery comes from hours spent on a craft, and they. are. just. always. at it.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 04, 2022, 12:07:53 pm
I didn't have any background with D&D or any serious storydriven tabletop RPG, so respect for the role of GM was not obvious to me.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 10, 2022, 06:14:57 am
I feel that players can put in an amazing amount into a game, so the idea of players paying a GM seems unbalanced to me.

Hmm, that feels like if someone plans a surprise birthday party for you, by showing up and enjoying it you "helped". I guess by being someone they knew might enjoy it or something, but overall I can't agree less.

There's certainly players that make the experience better for everyone else with their enthusiasm. There's even players that make suggestions that effect a game. But usually in a forum game if things do change at all from the start (and many are locked in and don't change) it is usually the talent of the host to cultivate an experience more to those players' liking.

I'm not trying to argue that business model makes sense, outside of real life experiences like Escape Rooms and Haunted Houses and so forth. But I also don't feel people who go to those real life experiences are experiencing an imbalance for paying for their tickets, nor do a feel a forum game host is contributing less creativity to its' players than the designers of those real life experiences.

I would argue that forum games can often be just as mentally stimulating and often more interactive and responsive. But you need the forum game host to do the responding, and I feel that is underappreciated. I've hosted the same forum game on multiple forums, with entirely different groups of players, and I definitely feel they are consumers of entertainment and I am the provider of it.

I feel the difference between a lot of these forum and real life experiences are semantics, like the difference between the creative teams of animated and live action entertainment. Like how the writers of Batman: The Animated Series and Justice League were not consulted for developing the DCEU, as it is seen as less. But with Dave Filoni making the best StarWars content right now with Mandalorian, far better than the recent films, we see when talent is valued at face value and not the semantics of him being from the StarWars animated team originally, well that appreciation positively influences those creative mediums, tenfold.

I totally expect some finger waggling about this post, but I also do not a cerebral counter point.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: EuchreJack on February 10, 2022, 06:30:11 am
On the topic of monetization, I wish it were possible for forum games to be a viable business haha. I'm not sure if it can be atm. But if it did happen, I think the best way is for players and GMs to both be getting credit, ideally by a paying audience. I feel that players can put in an amazing amount into a game, so the idea of players paying a GM seems unbalanced to me. Just the two cents I've thought about on this topic. If the game is interesting enough for people to want to spectate in some way, I think such a thing is possible. Forum games have incredible potential to create stories and games beyond what other mediums can offer, I would love to see it grow as a potential industry.

If you can get someone to pay you for something, more power to you.

As for the how, this very forum and Something Awful pretty much show you the two business models you could follow in creating your For Pay forum games.
You either set up a forum with a subscription fee and charge the folks to post
OR
You set up a forum with a nice Donate button somewhere and hope for the best.

In the first few (months, years) the profits probably wouldn't pay server costs, and you'd make more money for less work by working minimum wage.  But hopefully, it would snowball into something where you could collect more profit for less work.  How to actually set up that sort of thing is beyond my expertise.

....
Speaking of forum games, I had an idea for something like the above as a forum game.  Forum Wars or something like that.  Each player is a forum, and they are rated by forum statistics.  More statistics, more resources.  The cool part is that the players can interact with each other in interesting ways.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 10, 2022, 06:57:31 am
I think a better analogy than anything I presented in my last post, is an Author. You pay to read a book (unless you check it out from a library, but the author is still payed in that instance by the library).

Now what if that book also changed based on what you wanted the protagonist to do? That's like a fricken magic book.

I think of buying a suit versus tailor made.



It costs $10 to buy a Stephan King novel. It costs $50 to sit with him for less than a minute and get him to sign something. What would it cost to hire Stephan King to write a full fanfiction with your own mary sue, meet with you on a weekly bases, what would would that cost?

I'm not really gunning for you at all Meimei, I'm just a little jaded on this particular topic. There's not going to be a paywall on my game you signed up for tomorrow, and while I have had many delightful players that in the end have not changed my views, I am open to the possibility that you'll be the one so wonderful I see the errors of my petty ways. I'm just thinking with a microphone, any action to change things will also likely need to fall upon me.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: Man of Paper on February 10, 2022, 07:11:04 am
I don’t know why you’d ever touch forum game monetization with a twenty foot pole. Just don’t bring it up. It’s not a great topic and I think only one person here actually supports the idea in any degree (spoiler alert - it’s you). And before you say it, no, some things don’t need to be discussed. Wanting, expecting, or demanding pay for running a forum game is so absurd it’s hard to know where to start.

First your analogy is crap. The gm is more like a party host and the players the unsuspecting guests. Should the partygoers pay the planner for throwing a party? No. They should be expected to throw a bangin’ party and the partiers expected only to enjoy it.

Second your reference to a “business model” is absurd. There is and should never be a “business model” for running forum games. There should be a desire to run a game for some internet friends, an idea, and a keyboard and monitor. Nothing else.

Third it doesn’t matter how mentally stimulating a forum game can be, and your statement about the gm being required is one I could make for players too - you need them to have a game people play. If you don’t have the players then you don’t have a game. How much of a cut should they get? How about a forum admin for housing fg&rp? Your ISP for letting you run the game through their tubes?

The difference between the forum and fuckin hollywood creatives that you invoke here also is, uh, that’s certainly a thing, and it’s not just semantics that separates them (I’m also not entirely sure you’re using the word right). In Hollywood you have education and experience, teams of people within and without poring over details and fine tuning everything (for better or worse). On a forum you have one person tapping away at keys so that other people can tap away at their keys. The most important part here? The forum game is not a 5-to-9. It’s not a job. It’s not a career. It’s something you do voluntarily because you have an idea and want to have fun and share it with likeminded people.

If you find yourself thinking you should actually be paid for your effort then you’re losing sight of the whole purpose of forum games (fun with friends). If you think you should be compensated for your efforts then maybe you need to find an actual job that utilizes your skillset instead. If a friend wants to throw you a few dinars for your effort and time then that’s great, but it shouldn’t move beyond that.

Finally, if you ever bring this topic up again I sure hope you run more than a fuckin hurt and heal or other absolutely minimal effort game to run when you’re using your own experience as a point of reference. There are very few people I’d consider worth giving money to for their efforts, and I hate seeing someone far less worthy championing a cause that that person should have no right associating themselves with.

I have a lot I’d like to say, but some of it could be taken as rude, and I have more important things demanding my attention right now.

Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 10, 2022, 07:29:38 am
If you think of running a forum game as work- something you do for players to enjoy, that you yourself receive no benefits from- then you should not be running forum games. For that matter, if you think of hosting a party for your friends as work, you shouldn't be hosting parties for your friends.

Also, if you think the amount of work that goes into running your forum games is even comparable to writing a Stephen King length novel, you need to stick a wrench in your ear and realign your brain.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 10, 2022, 07:32:44 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ x ] Shaming
[ x ] Personal Attacks
[ x ] Ignoring multiple other users have a Patreon account or other form of donations
[ x ] Attacking analogies with hyperboly rather than the underlying comparison

*Yawn*
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: MeimieFan88 on February 10, 2022, 07:37:28 am
I feel that players can put in an amazing amount into a game, so the idea of players paying a GM seems unbalanced to me.

Hmm, that feels like if someone plans a surprise birthday party for you, by showing up and enjoying it you "helped". I guess by being someone they knew might enjoy it or something, but overall I can't agree less.

There's certainly players that make the experience better for everyone else with their enthusiasm. There's even players that make suggestions that effect a game. But usually in a forum game if things do change at all from the start (and many are locked in and don't change) it is usually the talent of the host to cultivate an experience more to those players' liking.

I'm not trying to argue that business model makes sense, outside of real life experiences like Escape Rooms and Haunted Houses and so forth. But I also don't feel people who go to those real life experiences are experiencing an imbalance for paying for their tickets, nor do a feel a forum game host is contributing less creativity to its' players than the designers of those real life experiences.

I would argue that forum games can often be just as mentally stimulating and often more interactive and responsive. But you need the forum game host to do the responding, and I feel that is underappreciated. I've hosted the same forum game on multiple forums, with entirely different groups of players, and I definitely feel they are consumers of entertainment and I am the provider of it.

I feel the difference between a lot of these forum and real life experiences are semantics, like the difference between the creative teams of animated and live action entertainment. Like how the writers of Batman: The Animated Series and Justice League were not consulted for developing the DCEU, as it is seen as less. But with Dave Filoni making the best StarWars content right now with Mandalorian, far better than the recent films, we see when talent is valued at face value and not the semantics of him being from the StarWars animated team originally, well that appreciation positively influences those creative mediums, tenfold.

I totally expect some finger waggling about this post, but I also do not a cerebral counter point.

I think it really depends on what kind of forum game it is. Some games, definitely the host does mostly everything and is moreso the "provider" of entertainment rather than the "consumer". But for some games I've hosted I've felt very much a consumer myself, being the host. It feels like by posting/playing/offering ideas players are allowing me to have a good time with my updates. I wouldn't equate it to me throwing a birthday party for player(s), but rather, me making a movie and players signing up to be actors and co-writers. It's much more a collaborative process than a provider-consumer relationship. But again it very much depends on the game.

In fact some of the private single-player GM'ed roleplays I've been running, players' word count per post has often exceeded my own (these games are bordering on more 'formal' roleplays, but with a GM and perhaps utilizing a system like D&D). That's probably not the type of forum game that is often played on these forums in particular, but it's a decent example of where players can input a ton of material. I do really feel that I am enjoying the game as much as they are, and in different ways than them (on a side note I also really enjoy being a player of GM'ed RPs - it's a different experience and I get to RP a bit more than worldbuild).

I feel like if it becomes a client-business relationship then I won't enjoy it as much because I'll feel like I need to be providing them a service, rather than enjoying a mutually engaging collaborative experience. And honestly as a player I wouldn't feel comfortable paying someone to GM for me (not only because I'm poor AF) because it would feel too "business-like" and I'll start telling myself stuff like "this had better be fun!" rather than creating the fun myself, which would actually detract from the fun. And likewise as a GM being paid I might start trying too hard to "do my job" and in the process not be enjoying the game myself, which again would hurt the overall fun of the game. I really think that the most fun games are created in environments where everyone is having fun, with no "obligations" to have/create/uphold said fun. It's kind of like a catch-22 - trying to have fun actually detracts from having fun.

When it comes to the business side I'm pretty clueless. I feel like forum games are a good collaborative medium to create a piece of "art", which in itself can be a product. I don't think I am very receptive to the idea of paid GMing though, or at least I wouldn't want to participate in it, either as a player or a GM, for the above mentioned reasons (I don't think it would be very fun for either side). I mean I would love to get money for GMing, but not from my players - because players need money too! I want everyone involved to be able to get money in this situation. Otherwise it doesn't feel as fun. But yeah these are just my subjective viewpoints.

I think a better analogy than anything I presented in my last post, is an Author. You pay to read a book (unless you check it out from a library, but the author is still payed in that instance by the library).

Now what if that book also changed based on what you wanted the protagonist to do? That's like a fricken magic book.

I think of buying a suit versus tailor made.



It costs $10 to buy a Stephan King novel. It costs $50 to sit with him for less than a minute and get him to sign something. What would it cost to hire Stephan King to write a full fanfiction with your own mary sue, meet with you on a weekly bases, what would would that cost?

I'm not really gunning for you at all Meimei, I'm just a little jaded on this particular topic. There's not going to be a paywall on my game you signed up for tomorrow, and while I have had many delightful players that in the end have not changed my views, I am open to the possibility that you'll be the one so wonderful I see the errors of my petty ways. I'm just thinking with a microphone, any action to change things will also likely need to fall upon me.

It depends on the game but I would say that players are more like co-writers of a book than people reading the book. Even if it's a magical book. They are part of the magic.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: Man of Paper on February 10, 2022, 07:40:04 am
You’re just mad cuz I’m right roseheart, and you can’t stand it. If you wanna ignore all the legitimate points I made because it hurt your feels that’s fine, it just helps highlight how wrong you are about the subject. gg though, love

Also meimie has got it right
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 10, 2022, 07:41:35 am
It depends on the game but I would say that players are more like co-writers of a book than people reading the book. Even if it's a magical book. They are part of the magic.

I'm not entirely in disagreement. In fact I think about Twitch streamers that help a video game to thrive, and that's not even effecting the game itself.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 10, 2022, 07:46:12 am
You’re just mad cuz I’m right roseheart, and you can’t stand it. If you wanna ignore all the legitimate points I made because it hurt your feels that’s fine, it just helps highlight how wrong you are about the subject.
I reeaally wish that was true. I am desperate for it.

But also have supported (with $) established creatives like Piecewise and MadMonkey, so I see this issue holistically. Not just as a creator. I felt good about doing it to.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 10, 2022, 07:51:55 am
Is there a difference between voluntarily giving someone a tip and pay-to-play?
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: MeimieFan88 on February 10, 2022, 07:54:17 am
I think patreon / donation services are perfectly fine and good, it's any kind of mandatory payment where I start to feel like it's not a good model.

Is there a difference between voluntarily giving someone a tip and pay-to-play?
Absolutely. The biggest difference, imo.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 10, 2022, 07:55:26 am
Quote
I think it really depends on what kind of forum game it is. Some games, definitely the host does mostly everything and is moreso the "provider" of entertainment rather than the "consumer". But for some games I've hosted I've felt very much a consumer myself, being the host. It feels like by posting/playing/offering ideas players are allowing me to have a good time with my updates. I wouldn't equate it to me throwing a birthday party for player(s), but rather, me making a movie and players signing up to be actors and co-writers. It's much more a collaborative process than a provider-consumer relationship. But again it very much depends on the game.
Yeah. That's definitely the case sometimes.

When I hosted Voyage: Space Odyssey (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177842.0) and my Iron Gladiator games, I definitely felt like I was the director on an improv show, with actors.

That's definitely the strongest counter argument.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 10, 2022, 07:56:09 am
Is there a difference between voluntarily giving someone a tip and pay-to-play?
Absolutely. The biggest difference, imo.
(That was a rhetorical question, to be clear)
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: Iris on February 10, 2022, 08:00:21 am
I'm sorry, I noticed this popping up in my unread replies and couldn't resist adding my thoughts. I may have gone a little overboard, but I was typing from the heart. Apologies if I came off as too harsh.

Hmm, that feels like if someone plans a surprise birthday party for you, by showing up and enjoying it you "helped". I guess by being someone they knew might enjoy it or something, but overall I can't agree less.

This is a terrible analogy. The experience is a collaboration between the players and the GM. If you wanted everything to happen the way you planned it, you would go write a book. The players, by adding their choice, add a layer of richness and depth through spontaneity. This is true in suggestion games, but is especially true in character RPs - the mere notion that a player, by playing their character, is not responsible for the quality of the experience is not only absurd but offensive. I, by joining your game, agree to spend my time coming up with a character for your game and play her faithfully; and because of this, the game is just as much my work as yours. Arguing otherwise would be to say that my character is not my creative work, which is an illogical and indefensible position - any contribution by others, no matter how slight, needs to be acknowledged.

I would argue that forum games can often be just as mentally stimulating and often more interactive and responsive. But you need the forum game host to do the responding, and I feel that is underappreciated. I've hosted the same forum game on multiple forums, with entirely different groups of players, and I definitely feel they are consumers of entertainment and I am the provider of it.

This is, again, a farcical position. The players do not only react to the world that you, as Game Master, create: they also interact with each other. Just as the GM creates a world for the players, the players create interaction for each other, and they create interaction with the GM. It would be completely erroneous to imply that only the Game Master's input matters, and is the only input is worthy of payment. The collaborative experience of the forum game does not easily translate to a paid experience. The GM and Players are cocreators in the final game, and both must be treated as such. Why would I pay someone for the privilege to contribute to their game? The GM needs players as much as the players need a GM. To act otherwise is folly. A paid artist-client relationship is inherently imbalanced and disrupts this mutual need.

I feel the difference between a lot of these forum and real life experiences are semantics, like the difference between the creative teams of animated and live action entertainment. Like how the writers of Batman: The Animated Series and Justice League were not consulted for developing the DCEU, as it is seen as less. But with Dave Filoni making the best StarWars content right now with Mandalorian, far better than the recent films, we see when talent is valued at face value and not the semantics of him being from the StarWars animated team originally, well that appreciation positively influences those creative mediums, tenfold.

I totally expect some finger waggling about this post, but I also do not a cerebral counter point.

I'm not sure what the point you are trying to make here is. Your post is difficult to understand. Are you trying to argue about the necessity of talent? If so, then I agree; however, one person's talent is not the determiner of the work's quality. To use The Mandalorian as an example, Dave Filoni is just one of many team members responsible for the final work's quality - a cursory Google search shows that there are several other executive producers working on the show - to say nothing of the writers, editors, cameramen, set decorators...

One man is never responsible for a creative work. Books need an author and an editor. Video games need artists and programmers. Forum games are no different.

-snip-

Pre-post edit: Meimie's post is too long to react to quote-by-quote, but I agree with many of their positions, and they have said many of the same things I have said in this post more eloquently (and, perhaps, with less vitrol). If I were to take money for my GMing - which is a tall order - I would much rather my players be compensated as well. They had as much say in the final result as I did.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: MeimieFan88 on February 10, 2022, 08:20:57 am
(^Really well said. That's pretty much my exact position on this as well)
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: IamanElfCollaborator on February 10, 2022, 08:58:52 am
To be quite blunt, y'all (and by y'all I mean Roseheart) taking GMing way too seriously. It's something done inherently for the fun of it. GMing forum games is done for the fun of telling a story that just so happens to be you and your buddies doing dumb things.

If people want to pay me for running FEFs (for instance), they're free to but I'm not doing it to get paid, I'm doing it to piss around with my friends. Anything else is entirely and utterly secondary, as it should be.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: EuchreJack on February 10, 2022, 10:25:24 am
My heartiest congratulations to Roseheart for managing to derail his own thread with this useless conversation about GM monetization.

Now, perhaps this thread isn't the greatest place to discuss this?

I'm reminded of Adam West.  If Adam West is the GM for your game, you're probably paying him to do it.  If Adam West is a player for your game, you're probably paying him to do it.  So the question of whether a GM is allowed to receive financial compensation is stupid.

More seriously, this is the Forum Games and Roleplaying section of the boards.  If this discussion continues, then this very topic which is actually useful for setting up Forum Games and Roleplaying needs to be in General Discussion, which would be a waste of an otherwise valuable topic.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: ConscriptFive on February 10, 2022, 11:12:17 am
My heartiest congratulations to Roseheart for managing to derail his own thread with this useless conversation about GM monetization.

Now, perhaps this thread isn't the greatest place to discuss this?
...

The joke's on you.  This is clearly a Sun Tzu 4D chess move to get himself appointed as forum mod.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 10, 2022, 12:22:41 pm
More seriously, this is the Forum Games and Roleplaying section of the boards.  If this discussion continues, then this very topic which is actually useful for setting up Forum Games and Roleplaying needs to be in General Discussion, which would be a waste of an otherwise valuable topic.
While I agree that it's a stupid discussion that shouldn't be happening, if it has to happen, FGRP is probably the right place.

Anyway, last word on the subject from me: This discussion is pointless for many reasons, not least of which is... it's a free internet. If you want to set up a pay-to-play forum game, we can't stop you. What we can do is point and laugh when nobody joins it, and mock you for trying. And then copy your game and run it for free, if it looked remotely interesting.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: Iris on February 10, 2022, 12:45:13 pm
I can't stop you, and if my own strong disapproval is not enough to stop you, then I can't do anything - certainly not from behind a screen.

In any case, to put this thread back on topic:



I had two ideas recently, that I would probably be unable to pursue since I'm already doing two fairly high-effort games. I like sharing them here, if only to inspire others.

The first game would be, tentatively titled, "Scrapyard Wars". The idea is that multiple teams of players would each find a dilapidated warship in a scrap field, and by their own ingenuity and cannibalizing other ships in the field, they would improve and restore the warships into good enough condition to fight the other teams. They would start small and weak at first, but over time, the ships would each become very powerful.

The second idea, also tentatively titled, is "You are a Medieval Alchemist". The idea would be that you would control an independent alchemist that practices producing goods for the populace - while, simultaneously, uncovering the secrets of your art. The alchemy system would be based on something similar to Runes Race, with each ingredient being made up of a limited number of noun-verb combinations that could each be added, subtracted, or manipulated in certain ways. Experimentation to find what does what would be heavily encouraged. This would, however, require a fair bit of preparation on the GM's part.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 10, 2022, 02:38:48 pm
I'm shocked that I'm saying this but I think you guys are being a little too hard on roseheart. Like, he hasn't tried to do that again. Yes it was a stupid, terrible idea, but, he hasn't tried to do it again, so I think he learned this important fact.

So hey, some discussion on discord made me realize that I might possibly enjoy running an AR, while I had already been working on an exploration/business game. (And two other concepts, but one of them is on indefinite hold while I'm doing a D&D because of being too similar, and the other I'm just not that into right now.) So I'm curious if there is enough interest in another AR that would be fairly simple and straightforward, with the setting of gladiatorial combat between the Blues and the Greens. Instead of conquering territory, the win condition would be conquering the hearts and minds of the Emperor and the civitas Romanus. Anyone interested?
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: BlackPaladin99 on February 10, 2022, 02:41:03 pm
I can't stop you, and if my own strong disapproval is not enough to stop you, then I can't do anything - certainly not from behind a screen.

In any case, to put this thread back on topic:



I had two ideas recently, that I would probably be unable to pursue since I'm already doing two fairly high-effort games. I like sharing them here, if only to inspire others.

The first game would be, tentatively titled, "Scrapyard Wars". The idea is that multiple teams of players would each find a dilapidated warship in a scrap field, and by their own ingenuity and cannibalizing other ships in the field, they would improve and restore the warships into good enough condition to fight the other teams. They would start small and weak at first, but over time, the ships would each become very powerful.

The second idea, also tentatively titled, is "You are a Medieval Alchemist". The idea would be that you would control an independent alchemist that practices producing goods for the populace - while, simultaneously, uncovering the secrets of your art. The alchemy system would be based on something similar to Runes Race, with each ingredient being made up of a limited number of noun-verb combinations that could each be added, subtracted, or manipulated in certain ways. Experimentation to find what does what would be heavily encouraged. This would, however, require a fair bit of preparation on the GM's part.
I like both of these ideas.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: BlackPaladin99 on February 10, 2022, 02:42:51 pm
I’d also like to see something like this game: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175519.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175519.0)
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: ConscriptFive on February 10, 2022, 03:59:26 pm
I'm shocked that I'm saying this but I think you guys are being a little too hard on roseheart. Like, he hasn't tried to do that again. Yes it was a stupid, terrible idea, but, he hasn't tried to do it again, so I think he learned this important fact.

So hey, some discussion on discord made me realize that I might possibly enjoy running an AR, while I had already been working on an exploration/business game. (And two other concepts, but one of them is on indefinite hold while I'm doing a D&D because of being too similar, and the other I'm just not that into right now.) So I'm curious if there is enough interest in another AR that would be fairly simple and straightforward, with the setting of gladiatorial combat between the Blues and the Greens. Instead of conquering territory, the win condition would be conquering the hearts and minds of the Emperor and the civitas Romanus. Anyone interested?

Blood and Sand was pretty popular.  No one has figured out the right mechanics, combat, and tech progression for that kinda theme though?  If you do go full realism, you have a really narrow set of designs to chase and you can't plot armor champions against permadeath.  Also, the game and esp batreps could get really stale unless GM you dictate novel match rules each turn.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: EuchreJack on February 10, 2022, 05:58:04 pm
Dictating Novel Match Rules would be authentic.  It was how the Gladiator games stayed exciting historically.
Insert obligatory slave revolt scene for good measure.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 11, 2022, 12:20:47 am
Finally, if you ever bring this topic up again I sure hope you run more than a fuckin hurt and heal or other absolutely minimal effort game to run when you’re using your own experience as a point of reference. There are very few people I’d consider worth giving money to for their efforts, and I hate seeing someone far less worthy championing a cause that that person should have no right associating themselves with.
There's no reason it has to be 'my' cause, there's plenty of room. *pats seat*
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: Man of Paper on February 11, 2022, 01:08:47 am
I like the part where everyone moved on then roseheart didn’t and told everyone to move on
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 11, 2022, 01:10:19 am
My heartiest congratulations to Roseheart for managing to derail his own thread with this useless conversation about GM monetization.
Yes, I knew I was inviting the discord clown car by bringing it up, but you and Meimie did show it is possible to have a dispassionate convo on the topic, even if I was getting myself worked up before they came.

Quote
Speaking of forum games, I had an idea for something like the above as a forum game.  Forum Wars or something like that.  Each player is a forum, and they are rated by forum statistics.  More statistics, more resources.  The cool part is that the players can interact with each other in interesting ways.
Hmm, I don't think I understand, I guess there's been times I've thought of tying them in small ways. In Pandemic, the person who goes first is the last one to get sick. I've thought of similar things for like most posts or oldest account if it fit the theme.



The first game would be, tentatively titled, "Scrapyard Wars". The idea is that multiple teams of players would each find a dilapidated warship in a scrap field, and by their own ingenuity and cannibalizing other ships in the field, they would improve and restore the warships into good enough condition to fight the other teams. They would start small and weak at first, but over time, the ships would each become very powerful.
Sounds like it would make a good Arms Race.



So hey, some discussion on discord made me realize that I might possibly enjoy running an AR, while I had already been working on an exploration/business game. (And two other concepts, but one of them is on indefinite hold while I'm doing a D&D because of being too similar, and the other I'm just not that into right now.) So I'm curious if there is enough interest in another AR that would be fairly simple and straightforward, with the setting of gladiatorial combat between the Blues and the Greens. Instead of conquering territory, the win condition would be conquering the hearts and minds of the Emperor and the civitas Romanus. Anyone interested?
Blood and Sand was pretty popular.
I'm actually running a gladiator themed RTD, with some systems from MOP's game. Gladiator Manager. Random: This was a good YouTube documentary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn4ZDPTmZnI)

I like the part where everyone moved on then roseheart didn’t and told everyone to move on
Ooh, good one.

MOP do you just host your Arms Races narratively, or do you have a method for resolving battles to keep things competive and fair?


Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 11, 2022, 01:40:04 am
Blood and Sand was pretty popular.  No one has figured out the right mechanics, combat, and tech progression for that kinda theme though?  If you do go full realism, you have a really narrow set of designs to chase and you can't plot armor champions against permadeath.  Also, the game and esp batreps could get really stale unless GM you dictate novel match rules each turn.
Even in fantastical arena fighters, I've found that a challenge. But I did try some audience interference in my ArenaCraft (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177809.0). And in this case it was actual forum users who were able to save up for various bombs and monsters to throw into the fight. It was spectacle gore, but might not work for a competitive serious game.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: piratejoe on February 11, 2022, 09:48:00 pm
Wow...This became a complete trashfire.

Alright, so, just going to put this up here and frank. If you think running a game is too hard, just get a co gm/qm/dm/whatevertwoletteranachronymyouwanttouse. Hell, depending on what kind of game it is, and how many people are running it you can have a rotating schedule sort of thing where GM 1 runs for 2 turns, GM 2 for 2 turns after, and then GM3 for 2 turns before it goes back to the first guy, and have the GM's play when they aren't running the game. In a system like that, it is the only time I think a GMPC can work. Though I suppose this is a bit off topic.

If you think running a forum game deserves to be paid, I think it's safe to say you likely won't get much in the way of traction by putting a ticket booth before the ride as it were. Realistically the only time I think it would work and be justifiable is if it's just as donations to the person running it and if it's a very high quality SG. But even then, that's just donations, not direct pay to play. It gives the choice for people who really like the writing if it's high enough quality, like the story of a cheesemaker on this very forum, that they can support the guy running it. Even then running a game is a hobby. Not a job. If it was a job this wouldn't really be up for debate and plenty of people would already be successfully lending out their services for small forum games. The only other thing that might work in what you wrote is essentially having a pay in for a chance to win a cash prize made up of everyone's entre fee but that feels more like gambling than anything else.

I run games because they are fun. Just as a player is wonders what their enemies are doing or what the GM is planning, I love thinking what the players have and love when they express those plans out in their team channel or with me. I like crafting a bunch of strings and seeing which ones the players pull and follow, watching as they become proper intricate paths. It's fine to have general points on a map that eventually will be reached but the route there is something that should always be free and flexible because what's the fun in having players if you just want to write a fanfiction or book instead? When it comes down to it, be it a heavily fluff RPG or a proper crunch filled game, you run it because it's fun, because you want to. Not because you have to. If you really want to be paid for writing or similar, try making a book or make a number of fanfictions and try and get people to pay you to write stories within their parameters. Otherwise, keep it as what it really should be. A fun hobby.



Anyway, I had a sort of idea based on something I saw from another game on a very different forum. It'd have a similar squadron mechanic to KOTS/TWD, but it'd be less a PVE arms race and more squadron and pilot management. I have had the thought in the back of my mind for about two weeks now, and though I've not written anything down I'm curios if anyone thinks that'd be a good idea or not. I'd probably not run it here though, or anytime soon. Especially as I have a fair bit already on my plate. But still, I just want a few thoughts about it.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: ConscriptFive on February 11, 2022, 10:49:24 pm
If you think running a game is too hard, just get a co gm/qm/dm/whatevertwoletteranachronymyouwanttouse.

(https://c.tenor.com/s1wnF2DiWA0AAAAC/skeptical-futurama.gif)
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: Man of Paper on February 11, 2022, 11:12:06 pm
I've never seen more cooks in the kitchen work out. When you're dealing with something that's "alive", like a game, it's better to have a singular mind to filter things through as you go. Collaboration works best when the goal is a specific end product (like a movie script), not when the product is the journey.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: piratejoe on February 12, 2022, 12:57:23 am
It has worked out before, actually. It was a fucking mess at the start, where I was originally a player and came in to replace one guy who ditched last minute before it started, and one of the other guys dropped after two weeks and fucking things up, but after that rocky start and they were replaced with someone who stuck around things went smooth sailing as far as GM stuff worked out. Really it depends on the game and it's size TBH.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 12, 2022, 02:06:59 am
I see the conversation was moved here, I'm probably not going to have much to say for awhile as I am busy, but I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: TamerVirus on February 12, 2022, 10:45:20 am
I'll just PTW for now
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 12, 2022, 01:54:50 pm
I've heard a lot of talk of "friends" repeated.

I host games on multiple forums sometimes, with groups I've never seen, I'd say those games can be successful. So friendship is not some integral part of hosting and playing forum games in my experience.

The dynamic of "master of the universe" and "participant" is inherantly imbalanced, so more often than not, I'd say forum games are more geared towards fostering friendship among participants. Participants that have become my friends are for meta reasons, like joining games just because I am the host and engaging with me outside of the scope of games. So long as friendship doesn't interfere with our gaming dynamic. Nothing worse than a GM that plays favorites, or a player that expects special treatment!

To me though, I'm not sure I 'believe' in online friends. Not really. A friend would babysit your daughter, or lend you a hand with moving. A friend is actually there for you, and even longtime online friendships are really casual when it comes down to it. But forum games do help you to improve yourself, with challenging stories, or just to fight apathy.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 12, 2022, 02:07:21 pm
At this point, I can only assume you enjoy getting dunked on. There's folks trying to discuss the actual topic of the thread, and you insist on dragging the conversation back to this nonsense.

Mate, just give it a rest. Play forum games, run forum games, have some fun. Don't create drama.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 12, 2022, 03:44:16 pm

Speaking of forum games, I had an idea for something like the above as a forum game.  Forum Wars or something like that.  Each player is a forum, and they are rated by forum statistics.  More statistics, more resources.  The cool part is that the players can interact with each other in interesting ways.
Hmm, I don't think I understand, I guess there's been times I've thought of tying them in small ways. In Pandemic, the person who goes first is the last one to get sick. I've thought of similar things for like most posts or oldest account if it fit the theme.

I see, so not the actual forum statistics, just a game with pretend forum statistics. Sounds fine. I really like the tokens as resources in arms race. The more power you can squeeze into a smaller number the more potent, and I just think that's neat.

But, maybe HUGE numbers can be part of the lulz factor. Forums don't usually interact though, so what would the players do?

(A user can also be a member of multiple forums.)

At this point, I can only assume you enjoy getting dunked on. There's folks trying to discuss the actual topic of the thread, and you insist on dragging the conversation back to this nonsense.

Mate, just give it a rest. Play forum games, run forum games, have some fun. Don't create drama.

hmm

While I agree that it's a stupid discussion that shouldn't be happening, if it has to happen, FGRP is probably the right place.

this was you?

The 'topic at hand' is anything that relates to forum games. There's complete dispassion and detachment from anything even near drama in my post, so if you interpret it as such it's only what you are bringing to it Nuke. I am a little slow to collect my thoughts on things. I'm sure for you, always being so quick to shoot a rebuttal it must seem very slow. With some things I am quick, but others I like to take my time.

Also: I am autistic, and I have a common trait for not really picking up on authority-based subtext(I sit comfortably with kings and paupers alike), and being more focused on collecting and dispersing truth than other considerations. So consider my "dramatic" stuff is really coming from a more mundane, or at worse, playful---place. It's mostly is just me being oblivious to taboos, and not really caring when I find out about them, as they usually are stupid.

More seriously, this is the Forum Games and Roleplaying section of the boards.  If this discussion continues, then this very topic which is actually useful for setting up Forum Games and Roleplaying needs to be in General Discussion, which would be a waste of an otherwise valuable topic.

The thread could possibly be broken into a FG General Discussion and FG Setup Discussion separately. It seems there's only spikes in the former though, but maybe it would be good. I don't know.

Even though I am some dramatic figure or whatever, it seems people don't mind taking advantage of the resources I create like this thread, so maybe I will.



On the topic of improv cohosting, I actually have a recent success/fail story. Mephansteras hosted Bastard Paranormal 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=177519.0) and I worked with him to provide art for the whole experience. The players were too clever though, and saw through Meph's ruse for them to all be Exterminators(armed serial killers). Meph is a very chill guy, unlike me, so it really was something to watch him go on an improvised RPG-esk adventure with the players. There were clear boundaries in our partnership in terms of what I would do, I set a limit of 15 pictures, and he steered it to meet that goal more or less. It is kinda like a ship in a storm, and anyone closest runs to patch the nearest leak. I created a map since I was already doing art, and he fleshed out the details of the rooms. There was no map originally. The game was a success, so what was the failure? Well we had planned and advertised an epilogue, it ended up being too complex so that was an unfulfilled promise. He was the story teller and I was the artist, but that project would be much more involved for both of us than a normal update. I feel bad about it, but he and the players seem to think well of the experience, and that makes me feel better. I was the one that was pushing hardest to do it though, so that's on me.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 12, 2022, 04:14:25 pm
Also: I am autistic, and I have a common trait for not really picking up on authority-based subtext(I sit comfortably with kings and paupers alike), and being more focused on collecting and dispersing truth than other considerations. So consider my "dramatic" stuff is really coming from a more mundane, or at worse, playful---place. It's mostly is just me being oblivious to taboos, and not really caring when I find out about them, as they usually are stupid.
I'm not going to respond to the rest of the post, but this part annoys me. Do not use autism as an excuse/cudgel. Just don't. Hey, guess what- I've been diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum myself. I have a bunch of mental-health issues that are related to that. But you wanna know whose problem that is? MINE.
It's fine to be autistic. It's fine to have troubles with things as a result. But for the love of your choice of gods, don't act like being autistic makes those problems not be problems. I'm allowed to be annoyed by you if you are annoying.
You being autistic is perhaps an explanation for your actions, but it is not an excuse. It doesn't make them acceptable. You should be trying to mitigate the effects, not relishing them.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 12, 2022, 04:18:53 pm
What do I have to excuse, pick one thing. We can talk about it in PM or wherever, since you want to explore a thread like that.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 12, 2022, 04:28:59 pm
What do I have to excuse, pick one thing.
Waiting six days to triple post, just to bring up a topic that you know- that you say yourself in the actual post- will cause drama.
Quote
We can talk about it in PM or wherever, since you want to explore a thread like that.
I really don't. I'm really trying to avoid this thread entirely. I wasn't going to reply at all- your posts are self-evidently wrong, I don't need to point out the mistakes. But you using autism as an excuse pissed me off. Having now said my piece regarding the subject, and having responded to this question directed specifically at me to elaborate on a prior post, I will again try to avoid getting drawn into your drama.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: Man of Paper on February 12, 2022, 04:36:37 pm
I like the part where people moved on but roseheart didn’t and then said we should move on, and people did, but he didn’t multiple times.

Hi dead Alex, I’ll take “I actually want to start drama and I have a need to play the victim” for 500.

And finally let me just say that nuke tends to be my voice of reason. If he’s tired of your shit that tells me you’re full of said shit. Protip roseheart: you’ve done exactly nothing these past few days except successfully build more animosity toward yourself. As someone who is also a state-certified autist might I suggest a course of action I’ve taken when I realize I’m being a dickhead?

Log off. A couple days, maybe a week, perhaps a month. Just don’t keep circling the drain around here, bro. You’ve been nothing but argumentative and petty, and if your brand of autism somehow prevents you from seeing it then you need to take some time to reflect on why people are calling you out for being a shitter instead of going “nah I’m just autistic”.
Title: Re: Game Design Discussion and Review (Also Ideas Dump)
Post by: RoseHeart on February 12, 2022, 05:23:01 pm
I read your Cthuluian SG Nuke, I never looked down on you. And paper, I'm using systems you created in one of my current games, I respect you guys as game designers, even though you make it so clear, even without the talk of monetization or donations, you think I am a trash forum game host. And you know what? I am, but I am better than I was last year, and the year before that. And I bet you wern't born at your current level. Which makes it really surprising you then turn around and constantly peg my hosting abilities every time you can, I'm surprised it didn't happen here.

Nuke, I don't think for a second you feel I meant my autistic confession that way. I think you don't misinterpret my words so liberally for any other reason that to frame my words as you see fit in the court of public opinion, because you don't see me as fit. For what, I don't know. I'm not trying to be a mod, I just try to make some helpful forum game resources now and then, and share opinions about forum games, which I have strong ones on. You have no reason to feel soo daamn threated by me, that you and Paper gotta tag-team me to try to make one point.

I'm shocked that I'm saying this but I think you guys are being a little too hard on roseheart.

Maybe I will take a break.



Hey, petty builshit snipe edit, since I'm gunna be gone for awhile anyway.


Quote from: Nuke
But you using autism as an excuse pissed me off.

Quote from: Paper
And finally let me just say that nuke tends to be my voice of reason. If he's tired of your shit that tells me you're full of said shit.


It does seem relevant, when the majority of your posts are about "Hey guys, look how socially awkward THAT guy is!"


That's like, your script. You are 1 note.


Meanwhile, with Nuke it's "look at this mundane thing THAT guy said! Watch me convince you it is PROOF he is a DEMON!!"


1 note. But at least you both form a 2 part harmony.


Quote from: Paper
And finally let me just say that nuke tends to be my voice of reason.

Explains a lot.



New Thread(General):http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179550.0
New Thread(Game Design):http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179549.0