Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Ihtomyt on June 13, 2021, 11:51:58 am

Title: World Gen Both Good and Evil Ocean?
Post by: Ihtomyt on June 13, 2021, 11:51:58 am
Is there a way to get both good and evil ocean tiles with advanced world generation? I am not well-versed in this feature, but I have been able to get a variety of good/evil/neither areas of the map on land, but not the ocean. No matter what I fiddle with, it seems like the entire ocean is either good, evil, or neither. Does anyone have any tips for making the ocean have varied regions for this aspect of things?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: World Gen Both Good and Evil Ocean?
Post by: Urist mcbayblade on June 13, 2021, 02:17:16 pm
Changing the desired number of good/evil tiles in large regions to a high value should get you what you want.
Title: Re: World Gen Both Good and Evil Ocean?
Post by: vjek on June 13, 2021, 03:11:06 pm
I may be mistaken, but unless it's a different region, I don't believe you can have a mix of good & evil biomes (in one procedurally generated region).
Note the difference between Region and Embark, in this context.  :)
So, to get what you want, Ihtomyt, I think you'll need to have two separate oceans.
As an example:
Spoiler: good-evil-oceans (click to show/hide)
This demonstrates many oceans/seas in one world, each one either good or evil.
Title: Re: World Gen Both Good and Evil Ocean?
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 13, 2021, 04:26:00 pm
You need separate ocean biomes, yes, but I'm fairly sure I've seen such ocean biomes sit next to each other. However, Physically separating them works.
If you use PSV worlds you can have some crude control over the Evilness of regions by setting the parameters for large/medium/small regions, with the best results gotten by trying to get everything of a given size have the same Evilness (so e.g. Large regions are Evil, Medium are Good, and Small are Neutral).

You can also get small patches of ocean turned evil of a locus of spreading evil happens to spread out over some ocean tiles.
Title: Re: World Gen Both Good and Evil Ocean?
Post by: Ihtomyt on June 13, 2021, 05:51:52 pm
I am not familiar with the acronym "PSV" and searching for it combined with Dwarf Fortress only finds a very sparse selection of examples of it being used as the acronym "PSV" without explanation. "Perfect World" utility was also mentioned in this thread, so does it have to do with that? I haven't used it before. Does that mean that without mods/utilities it is not possible to have multiple good/evil regions in a world? I tried adding the "PS" segments from what vjek posted above to the end of my example, but it tried to create ocean only, and failed to create a world.
Title: Re: World Gen Both Good and Evil Ocean?
Post by: vjek on June 13, 2021, 06:03:09 pm
You'll need to paste the entire worldgen (within the code quote) text, from my example, to have it work.  Just paste it all into the file, it's normal and expected both for DF to generate and parse.

PSV means Pre Set Value, but that's not the right phrase, exactly.  It's what has been used, but it's actually "Set Preset Field Values" (the letter 'p') interface in advanced worldgen.
In any case, there are 6 of them that can be set. (ELEV,RAIN,TEMP,DRAIN,SAV,VOLC) 
Within the Advanced Worldgen | Set Preset Field Values interface, you can set those six values to be hardcoded, rather than procedurally generated.
This allows for a more guided generation of the world.  It's still random in many ways, but within some limits you define.

Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133425.msg4856710#msg4856710) is a short Preset Field Values tutorial I wrote up a few years ago.  It may be of some value.
Title: Re: World Gen Both Good and Evil Ocean?
Post by: Ihtomyt on June 13, 2021, 08:23:39 pm
Thanks for working on that info. I am not at all familiar with this process, so it would take me quite some time to digest what you've put there. I wanted to adjust other things besides just the ocean biome evilness, so I'd have to understand it better to thread those other things back in.

I've been fiddling quite a bit and I got some worlds that are basically almost exactly what I was looking for with this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It would be cool if the same contiguous ocean could have different regions of good and evil like it appears dry land does (though I think I'm starting to understand that that's because dry land is composed of different regions in a totally different way than oceans). However, I am also completely ok with it not being. In practical application, as in during actually playing the game, you can't really be in multiple regions at once anyway, and in adventure mode, if you can survive a long trek, you are still only in one region at a time too. As fun as it is to look at the map, I really just want the option to play multiple fortresses and heroes in the same world with all options and high frequency of "magic" available. The above parameters got me what I was looking for eventually, in terms of that there are inland seas of good and evil. The results are wildly varied, sometimes with a huge evil ocean or huge good ocean and little neutral oceans, but there's really all variations that occur. The latest one I ran has almost a kind of nice "symmetry" where there's a small evil ocean, a small good ocean, and each are embedded in surrounding matching good/evil regions of land, and the main ocean is neutral, while the southern continent is mostly neutral. Very interesting.

Anyway, I'm just poking at it until it does things, and I'm still not sure if I've set the savagery to my liking because I'm just guessing. Pretty fun stuff.
Title: Re: World Gen Both Good and Evil Ocean?
Post by: PatrikLundell on June 14, 2021, 02:34:22 am
You CAN have embarks that span different regions (and, in fact, vanilla DF doesn't allow you to embark fully in an ocean: at least one tile of the embark rectangle has to be "real" land). If your embark rectangle covers more than one region DF will display "F1 F2 ..." at the bottom of the screen to change which of the biomes DF describes, with the number of "F" keys matching the number of different biomes within the rectangle.

The important Savagery ranges are Calm, Normal, and Savage, with Savage being the one where you can get giant versions of animals, highwood trees, and longland grass (if I remember the Savage exclusive herb correctly). Savage embarks also allows two groups of critters on the map at the same time (per layer, with surface being one and each cavern being one each, plus the magma sea and the underworld beneath that). I keep forgetting exactly where the boundaries are, but the lowest third is Calm, the middle one is Normal, and the top one is Savage. Also note that nearby settlements can reduce Savagery over time.

Amusingly, vjek's "a few years ago" is actually over 9 years according to the timestamp. Tempus fugit!
Title: Re: World Gen Both Good and Evil Ocean?
Post by: Ihtomyt on June 14, 2021, 07:34:08 am
I knew someone was going to point out that you can be in more than one region... technically yes, even I know that without being an expert, but you are just on the boundary of the region. What I meant was, you can't really be in two totally separate parts of the globe at once, so you can't really be on one ocean and also on another ocean... unless they were next to one another you could be on the boundary I guess, but it is VERY unlikely for a good ocean and an evil ocean being adjacent to one another with a viable land to embark on, at least certainly without a very large embark. I mean, you experts at world gen might be able to create worlds where it can happen, but in most worlds, even ones that do have both evil and good oceans, it's almost impossible to happen in one embark with random generation. I didn't mean that you can't be on two "regions" in world gen terms, but more that you can be across the globe, your fort is where it is and not two places in one save file. I'm not trying for an embark that has both, just a world that has all options. I think I'm figuring it out.

Is savagery set by savagery mesh size? For savagery, what would approximate the "easy" worldgen params of "high" (but not "very high") setting? I wish you could export the standard create new world params as advance worldgen settings. Can you?
Title: Re: World Gen Both Good and Evil Ocean?
Post by: vjek on June 14, 2021, 09:56:03 am
Quote from: Ihtomyt on June 14, 2021, 07:34:08 am
... I wish you could export the standard create new world params as advance worldgen settings. Can you?
Yes.  Generate any world.  Start in Legends mode, then press 'p'.  It will export the worldgen parameters as a file.
As far as having a good and evil ocean in the same Embark, it seems likely this is possible.  To find a suitable embark would just mean determining the conditions for distinct ocean generation, then replicating that as often as possible.

In the worldgen I posted above, without even intentionally trying to, there is both a Serene ocean "The Seas of Courtesy" along with a Sinister ocean "The Oceans of Dung" in a 1x5 embark, here (https://i.postimg.cc/8zQ4C3Y9/image.png).  Stonesense:
(https://i.postimg.cc/N2fmBTxH/image.png) (https://postimg.cc/N2fmBTxH)
EDIT:

Similarly, in this world/embark:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You can get two good/evil oceans, with waves incoming in both oceans to shore, in a 3x4..
(https://i.postimg.cc/18xPX7Mc/screenshot1.png) (https://postimg.cc/18xPX7Mc)