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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Erendir on July 25, 2021, 01:32:37 pm

Title: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: Erendir on July 25, 2021, 01:32:37 pm
This is probably stupid, but I can't make the linked stockpiles work as I want. And I already googled for hours.

The goal is to train a Gem Setter using cheap cut gems or even cut stone and a single finished good, scepters in my case. For learning purposes.

I'm following the following suggestion (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Decoration) from wiki:
Quote
...set up a stockpile exclusively containing the type of item you want to decorate, set up another stockpile with the decorations you want used, and set both stockpiles to give to the related workshop. [...] Using a linked stockpile in which the desired items contained in bins, causes the craftsdwarf to also decorate the bins. While it is being decorated, other dwarves may replace the bin, repeating this unwanted process. You can probably work around this, by using an in-between-stockpile, taking from the bin-stockpile and giving to the craftshop, but without bins enabled.

So, we should have a workshop, two direct feeder stockpiles (for gems and for furniture) with no bins enabled, and two indirect feeders respectively with bins enabled.

The problem is, those indirect feeders don't feed, and the direct feeder just stay empty - because IIRC dwarves prefer storing in container with similar items.

So, is the *probably* in "You can *probably* work around this" a trap or is there some trick I didn't discover yet? Please help.
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 25, 2021, 02:46:08 pm
The advice is incorrect. For whatever reason (probably a bug), DF does not feed from binned stockpiles to bin-less ones (it works the other way, though).
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: Moeteru on July 26, 2021, 07:10:18 am
Yeah, dwarves won't take items out of a bin to move them to another stockpile. Once the items are in a bin they can only be stored in stockpiles which accept bins.
This is just one of the bugs which makes me avoid bins like the plague.

My advice is to set up two quantum stockpiles as your feeder piles, with bins disabled of course. You can remove the items which are already in bins by batch dumping (d-b-d) everything from the existing bins-enabled stockpiles. Set the dump zone nearby and then unforbid everything once the bins have been emptied.

Technically I think it might be possible to build an automated system to move items from a bins-enabled stockpile to one without bins, but it would be needlessly complex and extremely dangerous. According to this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=109460.msg3340230#msg3340230) cages launched via a minecart shotgun will also eject their contents when they hit a wall. The same is probably true of bins and other storage items, so you just need to build a minecart shotgun between your bins-enabled stockpile and your direct feeder stockpile.
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: Erendir on July 26, 2021, 12:28:52 pm
I'm trying to avoid stuff that feels too hacky (like quantum stockpiles) for RP reasons. On the other hand, I will use dfhack, just maybe not to the extent some would (f.e. since work orders can have conditions now, I don't use workflow). With all that said, I think the solution is something like

1. direct feeder stockpiles with bins allowed (with at least 2 bins to reduce cancellation probability);
1.a. indirect feeder without bins set to give to direct feeders, direct feeders accept from links-only to maybe further reduce cancellation probability.
2. work order for this specific workshop "Encrust finished goods with diorite" and quantity 0, add more ordera for other cheap materials... This will get messy fast, yes.
3. direct taker stockpile for finished goods with bins allowed, giving to a general stockpile

A possible problem I see is an item looping back from the general stockpile -- hopefully, this won't happen because of bins everywhere :)

Also, quite possibly a better alternative to the 2nd step is a repeating order, altered using gui/workshop-job (Alt-A) to use cut gems of any material and set on repeat. With workflow enabled, the job won't disappear once everything is processed. What I don't know yet is if workflow will also automatically resume the job once the input items are there again.

And this is the reason why I'm working on a 3rd solution: work orders with gui/workshop-job functionality and also an addition of trait editing menu because then it could look like this.
(https://i.imgur.com/vZgzUX0.png)
And the worst that should happen in this setup is those bins encrusted once.
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: anewaname on July 30, 2021, 01:28:31 pm
The problem with a stockpile's bins being encrusted may be gone.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you are using an older DF version where bins can be encrusted, another option to control what type of furniture is encrusted is to rely on relative distance. The encrusting job has the dwarf put the cut gem inside the workshop then the dwarf finds the closest encrustable furniture item in relation to the workshop's location, so if your linked furniture stockpile is closer to the workshop than the binned stockpile, the dwarf should will look in that stockpile first (but, shortest distance might mean 1 z-level down is 1 tile distance).

I attempt to avoid the "too hacky" stuff also, but I do use QSP for some item types because it works for the situation and the more-RP-method does not.
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: Salmeuk on July 30, 2021, 03:34:39 pm
This is not helpful in any way, but merely a comment on stockpiles.

To me, QSPs make RP sense when you imagine them as piles of goods. The fact we cannot make vanilla item piles is. .  silly. Practically an oversight with little to say in its defense, beyond the notion of game balance being tied to stockpiles taking up large amounts of space, which is also a silly, silly notion.

That being said, I like to only use them for smaller items like food and gems and whatnot.
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: A_Curious_Cat on July 31, 2021, 12:10:53 am
I thought the best way to train a gem setter was to have a glassmaker make raw green glass, then have a gem cutter cut it, and finally have the gem setter encrust stuff with it.
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: Mobbstar on July 31, 2021, 05:48:28 am
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat on July 31, 2021, 12:10:53 am
I thought the best way to train a gem setter was to have a glassmaker make raw green glass, then have a gem cutter cut it, and finally have the gem setter encrust stuff with it.

There are four options, and each have benefits and drawbacks to my knowledge:
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 31, 2021, 06:45:05 am
Quote from: A_Curious_Cat on July 31, 2021, 12:10:53 am
I thought the best way to train a gem setter was to have a glassmaker make raw green glass, then have a gem cutter cut it, and finally have the gem setter encrust stuff with it.

Glass is renewable in that sand doesnt deplete, to a point if you can leverage the distance it requires to travel to reach fuel-less magma or the engineering required in order to bring the magma to a more convenient place its enough with a force of labor to make enough limitless glass material to work your encrusters forever. Green-glass doesnt need pearlash and can be made on the spot and crystal glass needs particular rock crystal boulders.

Overall a profitable silk/plant thread/yarn industry is always industrially advantageous for having high quality bags for sand or anything else around, and fufilling a few needs for your dwarves in having quality fashionwear, which you could also cover in encrusted glass too to raise its value.

Quote from: Mobbstar on July 31, 2021, 05:48:28 am
There are four options, and each have benefits and drawbacks to my knowledge:
  • actual gemstone has the highest value results, but is in limited supply, and rarely produces a craft or large gem the setters cannot use
  • stone is a common and ubiquitous byproduct, but may require long hauling routes

Dont forget that you can make perfect gem goods out of metal and other objects on demand in order to quickly satisfy one need or cross over the favorite textures and forms of a dwarf that can't naturally be achieved (though actually using the metal bars to decorate creates studded items)

And that by simply turning economic stones off in your stone preferences, you can make valuable gems out of stones you may not be interested in smelting for above their natural price or high value alloy. Quick, chart off the wiki states.
Spoiler: "economic stones" (click to show/hide)

Obsidian would be pretty good as a mundane or manufactured stone if you were in a suffciently complex obisdian casting station.

By comparison
Spoiler: "glass and misc" (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: Erendir on July 31, 2021, 11:26:28 am
Quote from: anewaname on July 30, 2021, 01:28:31 pm
The problem with a stockpile's bins being encrusted may be gone.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you are using an older DF version where bins can be encrusted, another option to control what type of furniture is encrusted is to rely on relative distance. The encrusting job has the dwarf put the cut gem inside the workshop then the dwarf finds the closest encrustable furniture item in relation to the workshop's location, so if your linked furniture stockpile is closer to the workshop than the binned stockpile, the dwarf should will look in that stockpile first (but, shortest distance might mean 1 z-level down is 1 tile distance).

I attempt to avoid the "too hacky" stuff also, but I do use QSP for some item types because it works for the situation and the more-RP-method does not.

I'm using the newest DF, mostly because about once a year I get that itch to play (which is usually replaced by an itch to write yet another dfhack script). And, well, I'm sad the wiki is misleading to such a degree. Could you maybe edit the page (https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Decoration)?

Quote from: Salmeuk on July 30, 2021, 03:34:39 pm
This is not helpful in any way, but merely a comment on stockpiles.

To me, QSPs make RP sense when you imagine them as piles of goods. The fact we cannot make vanilla item piles is. .  silly. Practically an oversight with little to say in its defense, beyond the notion of game balance being tied to stockpiles taking up large amounts of space, which is also a silly, silly notion.

That being said, I like to only use them for smaller items like food and gems and whatnot.
My reasoning is, you wouldn't just drop gems on the floor, would you? You'd rather put them in a boxchest, actually. But what is a chest if not a fancy box? A fancy box that's nailed to the floor so even if some stupid dwarf would think about moving it to put a tiny gem half a map away in it, he wouldn't be able to; and then, maybe, just maybe, they would finally learn to do it the other way around!

Quote from: A_Curious_Cat on July 31, 2021, 12:10:53 am
I thought the best way to train a gem setter was to have a glassmaker make raw green glass, then have a gem cutter cut it, and finally have the gem setter encrust stuff with it.
I'm trying a "shallow" fort, without magma access, but with coal/lignite. Fuel suddenly becomes a concern...
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: Moeteru on July 31, 2021, 12:11:53 pm
Quote from: Erendir on July 31, 2021, 11:26:28 am
My reasoning is, you wouldn't just drop gems on the floor, would you? You'd rather put them in a boxchest, actually. But what is a chest if not a fancy box? A fancy box that's nailed to the floor so even if some stupid dwarf would think about moving it to put a tiny gem half a map away in it, he wouldn't be able to; and then, maybe, just maybe, they would finally learn to do it the other way around!
Personally I'm happy to use exploits when they let me do something which should realistically be possible but which either isn't allowed by DF or causes other problems, even if I have to pretend that my quantum stockpile is actually a bunch of gems neatly arranged on a table or sorted into compartments in a chest.
A good example is my typical design for an underground waterwheel power station. Realistically I should be able to generate a lot of power by draining water from a river, aquifer, or flooded cavern down into a deeper cavern layer, but trying to actually use such a system would cause severe lag. Instead I exploit a side effect of map-edge drains and build a physically impossible machine which generates power from waterwheels constructed over a stationary pool of water. The build complexity is similar but it's massively better for my FPS.
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: Fleeting Frames on August 02, 2021, 06:14:52 am
FWIW, workflow doesn't check input materials at all. It'll periodically resume the job when you're below the threshold for enough products, regardless of how many you have (though it'll get resuspended once dwarf sees you lack mats). 

As for the problem of "train up legendary gem setter", I guess I'd use clay gather zone right on top of profiled Jeweler, and for the encrust goods I'd use something very plentiful like old clothes, controlling the inputs with burrow restriction. Could make earthenware crafts at adjacent magma kiln but that's an extra step. No mess with input stockpiles, though it'll get cluttered on the road to L+5 so probably some outputs next to depot.  Need 250 encrust jobs for this, so I guess 5 stacks of 50 (so there's not a moment there's 0 jobs in shop) would do it.

I'm not sure what the "nearby" trait even does outside of butchery, tbh. Might want to test that it works.
Title: Re: How to train your Gem Setter, or yet another question about stockpile settings
Post by: ldog on August 16, 2021, 11:01:33 pm
2. Jeweler Encrusting Industry
https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/2n9p3u/mechanixms_guide_to_better_stockpiling_part_3/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/2n9p3u/mechanixms_guide_to_better_stockpiling_part_3/)
Go bin-less or go home!