EuchreJack is monarchist scum. Ask me how I know.How do you know, Jim the Grudgeful King?
wait the scum team doesn't have a kill and don't know each other
lmao alright
EuchreJack is monarchist scum. Ask me how I know.How do you know, Jim the Grudgeful King?
wait the scum team doesn't have a kill and don't know each other
lmao alright
So, are we as Town the Good Guys or the Bad Guys?
Eh, I just want to win. Screw the Grudgeful King and his lackeys!
How did Jim become king anyway, and did it involve watery tarts?
With 7 players and THREE MAFIA that means we can't mislynch a single time or the traitors win. On the other hand there's a lot of mafia to hit and if we hit the King we just win on the spot. Also the Guards could very easily vote each other without knowing and commit some friendly fire. Same for the King voting their own Guards. Don't think I've ever seen that come up before but who can say.
With 7 players and THREE MAFIA that means we can't mislynch a single time or the traitors win. On the other hand there's a lot of mafia to hit and if we hit the King we just win on the spot. Also the Guards could very easily vote each other without knowing and commit some friendly fire. Same for the King voting their own Guards. Don't think I've ever seen that come up before but who can say.
The scum can't win just by tying, so even at 3v3 or other tie situations they still have to play for it, so while even one mislynch is bad the game doesn't immediately end for the town if that happens.
How did Jim become king anyway, and did it involve watery tarts?
So, are we as Town the Good Guys or the Bad Guys?EuchreJack is mafia, I can feel it in my bones. I want to let him post a bit more first so I can confirm it, but he has a certain tone whenever he isn't town-aligned. Like a fusion of being nervous and informed that he doesn't know how to turn off.
Eh, I just want to win. Screw the Grudgeful King and his lackeys!
Uh, I don't actually know anything, but gonna assume this is a mafia push on me, so RodenSo, are we as Town the Good Guys or the Bad Guys?EuchreJack is mafia, I can feel it in my bones. I want to let him post a bit more first so I can confirm it, but he has a certain tone whenever he isn't town-aligned. Like a fusion of being nervous and informed that he doesn't know how to turn off.
Eh, I just want to win. Screw the Grudgeful King and his lackeys!
4 to Hammer. Day ends on April 13, 2022 at 20:00 CDT (-428 hours and -45 minutes remaining.)
Day 1 has begun! The Day will end on Wednesday April 4th, in 72+ hours.
So, are we as Town the Good Guys or the Bad Guys?EuchreJack is mafia, I can feel it in my bones. I want to let him post a bit more first so I can confirm it, but he has a certain tone whenever he isn't town-aligned. Like a fusion of being nervous and informed that he doesn't know how to turn off.
Eh, I just want to win. Screw the Grudgeful King and his lackeys!
EuchreJack
Also: Did I seriously do such a Good Job last game that I need to be hounded like this Day 1?Were you in the last game? I don't remember that.
The scum can't win just by tying, so even at 3v3 or other tie situations they still have to play for it, so while even one mislynch is bad the game doesn't immediately end for the town if that happens.I see that a rule change has come into place. This is probably for the best in terms of fairness.
Dang. Why are we voting jack?The real question is why aren't you voting Jack?
ToonyMan's also probably a traitor.I assume this to be doublespeak, wherein Web IS a traitor and is signaling who IS NOT a traitor.
If only there were a way to vote out two people.
Two highest votes will be Lynched.:o :o :o
No, I said it because I can 100% prove I'm Town by allowing us to have two executions. :)
@Max: Whom are you thinking of voting?This was not intended as a response, as I wrote it all before you posted, except for this bit.
Certainly, without question, a double elimination is anti-town at this juncture, and may reasonably be considered anti-town in this game in general.
I actually disagree. Town can win by lynching the King, so having two shots to do so could be arguably pro-town.You realize that's less likely than blowing them both on town, and losing, right?
In fact, lynching two people is the most likely way that Town will actually get to lynch one person of their majority's choosing, as otherwise all town players would have to agree to vote the King.I'd buy this if I thought there was any chance that a majority of people in this forum would ever agree on the right target. :P
You're pinning me as the bad guy, again. This was sort of accurate last game, however I was also not the Distant Third. I feel like that's part of the reason my own King killed me.That's some shit reasoning and you know it.
I think I have good reason to vote you in this game. I think there's a good chance you're a Guard and know that Jack isn't the King which is why you eagerly voted them here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179780.msg8371154#msg8371154). I believe a King!Webadict would be more hesitant with their vote as they don't want to vote off their own loyal minions. You don't get to put yourself above the law as this impenetrable wall of steel.
Since Tric thinks a dual lynch is totally fine now Webadict wants to vote off both me and Jack together, which I think has a high chance of straight up having the Traitors outnumber us for an instant loss.
I realize I'm voting someone I believe is a Guard and not a King, but the King is harder to find and a Guard still moves us towards winning.
Certainly, without question, a double elimination is anti-town at this juncture, and may reasonably be considered anti-town in this game in general. I also see no reason not to accept webadict's claim that he caused this with a power. However, hubris is NAI for webadict. The question for me, then, is whether TricMagic knew this was an anti-town power, such that he would have given it to an anti-town player, or not.That's some shittier reasoning and you know it.
Neither ToonyMan nor EuchreJack look good to me right now, but petty grumbling may also be NAI for all involved parties.@Max: Whom are you thinking of voting?This was not intended as a response, as I wrote it all before you posted, except for this bit.
I realize I'm voting someone I believe is a Guard and not a King, but the King is harder to find and a Guard still moves us towards winning.There's two eliminations. If you believe I'm a Guard, then you're not using your brain, so here's a thought that you can chew on: Why not use that second elimination to find the King or a (real) Guard? Y'all got time to start talking, get to it. I'm not sure how you could possible think I'm a Guard, but I think that's mostly not your real thought, and that instead your goal is to convince the non-Traitors that I'm a Traitor because, let's face it, that's kind of your shtick, and you can always bank on EuchreJack or TricMagic to believe everything you say at face value because I'm clearly the only one with an agenda. I assume that everyone else is submitting posts through their local mail carrier, or have we invented telephones yet?
Webadict looks suspicious, mostly for the reasons Toonyman said.Classic.
You're pinning me as the bad guy, again. This was sort of accurate last game, however I was also not the Distant Third. I feel like that's part of the reason my own King killed me.I'm pinning you as the bad guy? How? Please reference the ways I'm doing that. Are you, perhaps, a bad guy? I apologize, I'd like to make an adendum to why I think you're anti-Town then:
Y'ALL WANT MORE?!
There is much talk of executing EuchreJack, but among the voices another rises. Two! Lynch Both! Two! Where it came from is unknown, but it resonates among the Dwarves as they are kicked into a frenzy of blood rage. This is not a standard game.@Tric: Is this correct? Is Web a double voter, or is this a misprint?
Forsooth, the bloody haze has dropped over their eyes.
EuchreJack - 3 - Jim Groovester, Rode, Webadict
Roden - 1 - EuchreJack
Jim Groovester - 0 -
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
ToonyMan - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
Not Voting - 4 - Knightwing64, Maximum Spin, ToonyMan, webadict,
Two highest votes will be Lynched.
Day ends on May 4, 2022 at 1:00 PM, GMT-5
I don’t think u can be a double voter
- One, you would assume, at worst, NAI on me using this ability. You would absolutely believe that I'd use this as Town, and you'd assume that I might use it even as scum.I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you mean Tric allowing double lynches? Why is that alignment determinate?
I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you mean Tric allowing double lynches? Why is that alignment determinate?Incorrect. I literally used an ability to do that.
I can understand the mod changing the rules mid-game, especially with Tric. But there's no one with abilities in this game.
There is much talk of executing EuchreJack, but among the voices another rises. Two! Lynch Both! Two! Where it came from is unknown, but it resonates among the Dwarves as they are kicked into a frenzy of blood rage. This is not a standard game.@Tric: Is this correct? Is Web a double voter, or is this a misprint?
Forsooth, the bloody haze has dropped over their eyes.
EuchreJack - 3 - Jim Groovester, Roden, Webadict
Roden - 1 - EuchreJack
Jim Groovester - 0 -
Knightwing64 - 0 -
Maximum Spin - 0 -
ToonyMan - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
Not Voting - 3 - Knightwing64, Maximum Spin, ToonyMan,
Two highest votes will be Lynched.
Day ends on May 4, 2022 at 1:00 PM, GMT-5
Don't have much time to post right now. I wasn't really expecting powers in this set up, but with how swingy that makes the game I think it implies that both alignments have a hidden ability of some kind. Otherwise, Web is effectively an Innocent Child for balance reasons, as a mafia member could force a double lynch at EoD without anyone being able to do anything about it.
And yeah, it's the result of an Ability.What the fuck.
Actually, thinking back, I'm confident enough in that to place a vote.I agree.
Knightwing
@Everyone: Who ELSE do you think is scum rather than whom you are voting?I don't know. I'm just going to agree with Roden and assume Webadict is town because they have an OP ability and not care about it.
IF NOT VOTING, WHY?
I am strongly agreeing with this take...And yeah, it's the result of an Ability.What the fuck.
I didn't sign up for an unknown rules bastard game.
Max I don't know, big surprise.Buuut, you agree with me about Knightwing, why would I out him if I was on his team? I guess, in this setup, you could think that he's scum but I wrongly think he really isn't, but that's kind of dumb, frankly. If you agree with me about Knightwing then you should trust me for pointing it out.
So, we have THREE traitors in a SEVEN person game.
This means the traitors can L-1 a Town Dwarf. Or, with the assistance of a naive Town Dwarf, outright Lynch a Town Dwarf.
*EJ looks at players voting him* :o
Yup, that explains it.
The real question is whether I've caught all the traitors voting me, or if some Town Dwarf got caught up in that mess.
I am not a traitor, no sireee. I am a normal, law abiding dworf who loves killing puny long ears.
Dang. Why are we voting jack?
I don’t think u can be a double voter
Actually, thinking back, I'm confident enough in that to place a vote.I agree.
Knightwing
Knightwing
It is pointless to believe anything other than I used an ability to do that because I definitely did.
Don't have much time to post right now. I wasn't really expecting powers in this set up, but with how swingy that makes the game I think it implies that both alignments have a hidden ability of some kind. Otherwise, Web is effectively an Innocent Child for balance reasons, as a mafia member could force a double lynch at EoD without anyone being able to do anything about it.
webadict using his power
Jim is weird.
You didn't have to announce that you used this ability, right?I did not. I chose to because it was weird that I was given the ability at all. I was about 50:50 on using it at all, but I kinda shrugged my shoulders and just went for it because why not make it more interesting?
I'm fine with dying if we can agree on a top hit alongside me. It would remove me as a suspect and we only instant lose if the other player is also town. This should prove I'm not the King at least. It also means I won't have to play in this game anymore.If you are on the chopping block as wrongly-accused town, shouldn't your view of the game be better than ours?
It's a good vote, but I feel like this might actually point towards the King being one of Jim Groovester or... Possibly Maximum Spin?
So...probably Knightwing is NOT the King.
. . .
...you can do better than Knightwing
I was at schollllllllll.Vote Jim!
What can I do to convince you guys that I’m not the king? I really don’t want to y’all to waste a vote.
This sentence is fine, but insubstantial. It's NAI, but it's also fluff. It doesn't really push forward a Town agenda.So, we have THREE traitors in a SEVEN person game.
This means the traitors can L-1 a Town Dwarf. Or, with the assistance of a naive Town Dwarf, outright Lynch a Town Dwarf.
*EJ looks at players voting him* :o
Yup, that explains it.
The real question is whether I've caught all the traitors voting me, or if some Town Dwarf got caught up in that mess.
There are no hammers and the day lasts 72 hours + whenever TricMagic ends it. Quickhammers or last minute vote gaming will not work in this game.
This makes voting on substance a bit of a viable defense for my actions, but that's me proactively defending myself when that doesn't matter. Instead, I'd argue that this pushes forward a traitor agenda, since it indicates that nothing Knightwing64 could post would be substantive enough to unvote them. It's a very non-Town argument, and one I dislike because it pushes the target further into a corner. This feels wolfy to me, but probably only slightly. If anything, it feels like fluff.I am not a traitor, no sireee. I am a normal, law abiding dworf who loves killing puny long ears.Dang. Why are we voting jack?I don’t think u can be a double voter
I think a compelling argument could be made to lynch you because you will never post anything of sufficient substance to indicate your alignment one way or the other.
I think this is a tough sell to use against Jim. It sounds like he's non-committal, which clashes a bit with his "do it" mentality, which kinda gives me a bit of whiplash, BUT it's actually his most Town-sounding so far, in spite of that. I dislike his defense of the vote, though, because it doesn't appear to have a purpose related to finding Town or scum.Actually, thinking back, I'm confident enough in that to place a vote.I agree.
Knightwing
Knightwing
I'm game mostly just to see if anybody screeches about it though.
Knightwing64.
You think it means anything that Knightwing64 spent 33% of his contributions to the game so far wondering why people were voting EuchreJack?
This is just fluff as well, which is, again, just NAI, but a bit insubstantial.Don't have much time to post right now. I wasn't really expecting powers in this set up, but with how swingy that makes the game I think it implies that both alignments have a hidden ability of some kind. Otherwise, Web is effectively an Innocent Child for balance reasons, as a mafia member could force a double lynch at EoD without anyone being able to do anything about it.
I wouldn't go that far but it's certainly a very strong point in his favor.Quotewebadict using his power
I've skimmed over this discussion and absorbed maybe half of it but I'm going to agree with webadict and his decision to use the power and announce it over holding it in reserve for some potentially more opportune time. (I haven't really thought it through but I think Day 1 is probably the most opportune time to use it anyway.)
There's additional value in using it at this point when the town has a numeric advantage over the scum team in that there's double the opportunity to cause screeching and gnashing of teeth.
Feeling okay about Roden, Maximum Spin, and webadict atypically enough. Not feeling okay about EuchreJack or ToonyMan or Knightwing64.Dislike that he's still going after EuchreJack without what I feel is a good reason. I'd say the same for ToonyMan, but this feels like the first time he's admitted to disliking ToonyMan. Knightwing64 is already justified, so whatever, but I'm interested in what he finds off about ToonyMan. Anything in particular?
Hm, I am OK with voting Knightwing.I think I would be okay with Knightwing or Jim. Although I note your extreme hesitance to vote Knightwing along with Webadict. I would find this more compelling to pursue if I didn't think you were town. If we lose to mafia!Jack here then you deserve to win again.
Web is OK with voting Knightwing.
Max, Toonyman, & Jim ARE voting Knightwing.
So...probably Knightwing is NOT the King.
What was happening shortly before Max suggested Knightwing?I'm fine with dying if we can agree on a top hit alongside me. It would remove me as a suspect and we only instant lose if the other player is also town. This should prove I'm not the King at least. It also means I won't have to play in this game anymore.If you are on the chopping block as wrongly-accused town, shouldn't your view of the game be better than ours?
Which player(s) do you think deserve the honor of dying with you? By your POV, you have a 50/50 chance.
...you can do better than Knightwing
I was at schollllllllll.Well maybe you can vote someone.
What can I do to convince you guys that I’m not the king? I really don’t want to y’all to waste a vote.
Roden is also highly suspect. Would consider eliminating him.Why?
Personally, my reasoning is that Jim Groovester doesn't appear to be attempting to solve the game. The immediate counter to this is that it's Day 1, but... You know, this is a pretty important Day 1, and saying that I'm not impressed with his solving so far is kinda meh, but I feel it has some merits, so I'll instead point out my issues:
Overall, it just feels like Jim is a bit more on the ball as Town and a bit more pushy, as well. That's one of my biggest concerns here. I'm like 99% sure Knightwing isn't the King, so I want to see if Knightwing is willing to commit to this vote or if he wants to vote someone else.
I think I would be okay with Knightwing or Jim. Although I note your extreme hesitance to vote Knightwing along with Webadict. I would find this more compelling to pursue if I didn't think you were town. If we lose to mafia!Jack here then you deserve to win again.
So, you think EuchreJack, Max, and Roden are Town, which infers that you think Jim, Knightwing and I are scum?I don't know. I'm just assuming you're town because of bullshit powers even though I don't really like your posts. I'm voting Knightwing because I believe Jim more than Knightwing. If Jim is town there's a very strong possibility that Jack and Knightwing are both mafia. So voting Knightwing makes the most amount of sense here. If we vote off both Jim and Knightwing today with the double lynch I think at least one will be a hit. There's no way both are town.
If that's the case, why would I be okay with voting Knightwing and Jim? I feel like that implies you think I'm the Traitor King, which is fair if you think being the Traitor King gave me an ability, or it might be a setup to swap the vote to me, but this makes it feel like you think Jim is a Traitor?
Seems a little confusing to me.
Fine, maybe I will vote you Jim, if you want it to be that way.Good there's a vote, now why is Jim scum?
Jim Groovester
I think I would be okay with Knightwing or Jim. Although I note your extreme hesitance to vote Knightwing along with Webadict. I would find this more compelling to pursue if I didn't think you were town. If we lose to mafia!Jack here then you deserve to win again.
Man remember in Lords of Mafia when EuchreJack scumslipped about the remaining team composition and revealed he didn't actually know what team he was supposed to pretend to be on and notquitethere pointed it out and everybody (particularly me) ignored him?
This reminds me of that.
That was all.
Thanks for reading.
AND I WON!!!!
Primarily because NQT's logic got buried. So we can't let that happen here.
Voting Toonyman. Who else can vote Toonyman?
AND I WON!!!!
Primarily because NQT's logic got buried. So we can't let that happen here.
Voting Toonyman. Who else can vote Toonyman?
Maybe I wasn't clear but the point I was trying to make to ToonyMan is that he shouldn't be brushing his misgivings about you away so easily.
So, you think EuchreJack, Max, and Roden are Town, which infers that you think Jim, Knightwing and I are scum?I don't know. I'm just assuming you're town because of bullshit powers even though I don't really like your posts. I'm voting Knightwing because I believe Jim more than Knightwing. If Jim is town there's a very strong possibility that Jack and Knightwing are both mafia. So voting Knightwing makes the most amount of sense here. If we vote off both Jim and Knightwing today with the double lynch I think at least one will be a hit. There's no way both are town.
If that's the case, why would I be okay with voting Knightwing and Jim? I feel like that implies you think I'm the Traitor King, which is fair if you think being the Traitor King gave me an ability, or it might be a setup to swap the vote to me, but this makes it feel like you think Jim is a Traitor?
Seems a little confusing to me.
Why is Roden scummy?
Dunno, something he said just rubbed me the wrong wayWow. Great.
Yeah I see that, it's just that voting Knightwing seems better than Jack here if it's the case I can believe you.AND I WON!!!!Maybe I wasn't clear but the point I was trying to make to ToonyMan is that he shouldn't be brushing his misgivings about you away so easily.
Primarily because NQT's logic got buried. So we can't let that happen here.
Voting Toonyman. Who else can vote Toonyman?
So Jim & Toony are a team. InterestingIt's possible we're both town, yes.
My vote's in the right place. I don't vote if I don't mean it.Conviction, I like it.
I'm switching back to Jim Groovester, but note with concern how many people seem unable to vote Toonyman.You mean like you jumping back off me? If people don't want to vote me then that's on them and means I'm doing a good job, sadly.
I'm trying to help the Town, and I'd prefer that you help do that. I do not mind if you'd like to pick the secondary vote. I think that's actually a completely workable idea, if you honestly believe that Knightwing is at the very least a Traitor. I'd prefer that you vote for someone that you think is the King, though, since this is the best chance to do that.Personally, my reasoning is that Jim Groovester doesn't appear to be attempting to solve the game. The immediate counter to this is that it's Day 1, but... You know, this is a pretty important Day 1, and saying that I'm not impressed with his solving so far is kinda meh, but I feel it has some merits, so I'll instead point out my issues:
This is bullshit but I don't feel like spending that much time arguing about it.
I wonder how town should hunt in this game if the scum team doesn't know each other except for the two guards knowing the King. Do you think pressing people to see who gets nervous about it might be one way to go about it?
Nah that'd never work.Overall, it just feels like Jim is a bit more on the ball as Town and a bit more pushy, as well. That's one of my biggest concerns here. I'm like 99% sure Knightwing isn't the King, so I want to see if Knightwing is willing to commit to this vote or if he wants to vote someone else.
Yeah okay, me watching EuchreJack's activity for half an hour to make sure he was online and saw me call him out on Knightwing64 and triple posting telling him to vote somebody he says he's okay with voting isn't being pushy, alright.
Anyways webadict you can lynch me if you want but I'm going to keep my vote on Knightwing64 just to spite you and EuchreJack who both agree that Knightwing64 is definitely not the King, and thanks to your double lynching ability that's something you're going to have to work around.I think I would be okay with Knightwing or Jim. Although I note your extreme hesitance to vote Knightwing along with Webadict. I would find this more compelling to pursue if I didn't think you were town. If we lose to mafia!Jack here then you deserve to win again.
Man remember in Lords of Mafia when EuchreJack scumslipped about the remaining team composition and revealed he didn't actually know what team he was supposed to pretend to be on and notquitethere pointed it out and everybody (particularly me) ignored him?
This reminds me of that.
That was all.
Thanks for reading.
Okay, I'll copy Jack then.That seems reductionist. Do you think that Jack is copying me? Personally, I've found me copying Jack more, so that's not a fair assessment unless you only looked at the votes.
Who do I vote for Webadict? Who's the King if it's not Jim?
Okay, I'll copy Jack then.
Who do I vote for Webadict? Who's the King if it's not Jim?
I'm trying to help the Town, and I'd prefer that you help do that. I do not mind if you'd like to pick the secondary vote. I think that's actually a completely workable idea, if you honestly believe that Knightwing is at the very least a Traitor. I'd prefer that you vote for someone that you think is the King, though, since this is the best chance to do that.
I'm still fine with voting Knightwing. I just do not believe that Knightwing is the King. I think that you are a very likely candidate because I feel that you are at the very least a Traitor, and at the worst, the King. If anything, I think Knightwing accidentally spilled Town, but that's personal preference at this point. If you take that as me protecting him, then that's silly.
Do you think that what I'm doing is anti-Town? Or, do you believe that I do not have the Town's best interests in mind? If you do, feel free to say it so that I may help correct that impression.
I guess... Part of why I think it's you is intuition, which is a bad reason, for sure. Part of it is that ToonyMan called you the king. The second is that Roden jumped onto your initial vote. If you were the King, you'd be able to vote anyone and be able to signal your Guards who they were. That's actually why I immediately jumped onto your EuchreJack vote. I mean, EuchreJack didn't particularly strike me as Town at that point, but he wasn't particularly scummy either. I figured that if there was a bandwagon starting, if I jumped onto it, I'd look like a Traitor to the King, so the King might trust me, as it felt likely it was a King or Traitor start.
A lot of that is circumstantial, but it feels correct, and if it's not, I feel like we can work that out shortly.
But, I'd be interested in why you don't think it's Max, Roden, or ToonyMan, since they're a bit content to let you be voted out if you're not a Traitor.
EuchreJack cannot be a Traitor from my perspective because he's willing to change his vote as needed. He's... a bit too eager to follow me, but I'm Town, and I don't think he's a Traitor, so I'm gonna let it slide for the entire game.
Okay, I'll copy Jack then.
Who do I vote for Webadict? Who's the King if it's not Jim?
Also I'm perfectly happy with being lynched today if a Traitor is also lynched today (an attitude that the King cannot have) because that would provide a tremendous amount of information for Day 2. Absolutely worth it.
Max, Roden, and ToonyMan seem interested in finding the King and killing them and don't seem interested in the survival of any particular player. This matches the attitude I feel a Rebel should have.
But then again, maybe it is Maximum Spin.If I'm King, I'd like to think my team would be clever enough to keep off the bandwagon I started. In other words, if I'm King, you and webadict are my most likely guards. Therefore, if you wish to insure against this possibility, feel free to vote for yourself.
Hey Max, what have you contributed? Why are you NOT the King?
So obviously the plan here is to figure out which two players don't want to vote their King.
The King will have as much knowledge as the Rebels so they'll have an easier time blending in than the Guards, but it should still be deducible.
With 7 players and THREE MAFIA that means we can't mislynch a single time or the traitors win. On the other hand there's a lot of mafia to hit and if we hit the King we just win on the spot. Also the Guards could very easily vote each other without knowing and commit some friendly fire. Same for the King voting their own Guards. Don't think I've ever seen that come up before but who can say.
But then again, maybe it is Maximum Spin.If I'm King, I'd like to think my team would be clever enough to keep off the bandwagon I started. In other words, if I'm King, you and webadict are my most likely guards. Therefore, if you wish to insure against this possibility, feel free to vote for yourself.
Hey Max, what have you contributed? Why are you NOT the King?
What about Knightwing's play makes you believe he is town? Be specific.
Also I'm perfectly happy with being lynched today if a Traitor is also lynched today (an attitude that the King cannot have) because that would provide a tremendous amount of information for Day 2. Absolutely worth it.
You seem to forget that it is entirely possible for two town players to get lynched.
Any hesitancy on my part to lynch Knightwing is due to my honest belief he is one (1) of the only four (4) town players.
You and Toonyman don't seem to care that the game might be lost immediately after the Day 1 vote. Which makes you both highly suspicious.
I will admit, the odds of Jim being the king are less since it appears Jim is in fact going to be lynched.
But let's watch to see if anyone tries to unwedge Jim from being lynched.
Max, Roden, and ToonyMan seem interested in finding the King and killing them and don't seem interested in the survival of any particular player. This matches the attitude I feel a Rebel should have.
Also, what is this populist crap?
You're clearly pandering to Max, Roden, and ToonyMan to get them NOT to lynch you.
Fuck this shit
Voting Jim Groovester, even though I was hoping to investigate more people before end of day.
What about Knightwing's play makes you believe he is scum? Be specific.Will do. Scum knightwing lurks, but tries to create the illusion of activity through jokey nervous-sounding one-liners and shitposts which don't contribute anything. It's been a pretty dead giveaway so far.
You know Jack you shouldn't vote me because while I might have expressed the opposite multiple times I actually think you're the most intelligent (and handsome) player on this board.Rude.
I am not a traitor, no sireee. I am a normal, law abiding dworf who loves killing puny long ears.
Dang. Why are we voting jack?
I don’t think u can be a double voter
I was at schollllllllll.
What can I do to convince you guys that I’m not the king? I really don’t want to y’all to waste a vote.
Fine, maybe I will vote you Jim, if you want it to be that way.
Jim Groovester
Dunno, something he said just rubbed me the wrong way
I think the expression is Luckyowl'd. This clueless banter sounds like town!knightwing. As the webadict, Knightwing had more of a clue as to what was going on.What game were you playing? At least compare it to the opening part of the last webadict game, the one with all the weird ball flavor. Clueless banter is exactly what scum Knightwing hides behind. Town knightwing gives off a distinct air of actually trying. KWN might even be a less good comparison since his webadictness was an open secret - but he still used clueless banter as chaff.
I think the expression is Luckyowl'd. This clueless banter sounds like town!knightwing. As the webadict, Knightwing had more of a clue as to what was going on.What game were you playing? At least compare it to the opening part of the last webadict game, the one with all the weird ball flavor. Clueless banter is exactly what scum Knightwing hides behind. Town knightwing gives off a distinct air of actually trying. KWN might even be a less good comparison since his webadictness was an open secret - but he still used clueless banter as chaff.
Look, I'm trying to be modestly diffident about this but you are really making me feel like the scum team is just knightwing/Jack/webadict. If you're town and don't want to lose the game, you need to do better than to just say something that is obviously the opposite of reality.
Okay, there's a problem with that, and that's that we have two eliminations, and I'm willing to bet everything on Knightwing64 not being scum.I think the expression is Luckyowl'd. This clueless banter sounds like town!knightwing. As the webadict, Knightwing had more of a clue as to what was going on.What game were you playing? At least compare it to the opening part of the last webadict game, the one with all the weird ball flavor. Clueless banter is exactly what scum Knightwing hides behind. Town knightwing gives off a distinct air of actually trying. KWN might even be a less good comparison since his webadictness was an open secret - but he still used clueless banter as chaff.
Look, I'm trying to be modestly diffident about this but you are really making me feel like the scum team is just knightwing/Jack/webadict. If you're town and don't want to lose the game, you need to do better than to just say something that is obviously the opposite of reality.
Picking a vote and sticking to it might be a great idea, since all this hopping around makes it look like you're scum trying to obscure the identity of the king by pretending you're willing to vote anyone.^ This is not a Town mentality.
I fundamentally disagree with this take which is why EuchreJack is indirectly making you look suspicious as well. Jumping from vote to vote as if to get his friends free cable does not progress any case, because it's obvious that it lacks conviction behind it, so nobody even needs to take it seriously; and on top of that it means that OTHER PEOPLE can't make use of him to, as ToonyMan said, figure out for whom two players won't vote, because his vote becomes meaningless as soon as he moves it.Picking a vote and sticking to it might be a great idea, since all this hopping around makes it look like you're scum trying to obscure the identity of the king by pretending you're willing to vote anyone.^ This is not a Town mentality.
EuchreJack is trying to solve the game. If that involves changing suspicions, then he's progressing cases.
Locked in.Then you're dumb. No other way to put it. I know I'm town, so you have forfeited any ability to convince me that you are. If you are 100% convinced that I am scum, then you are an idiot. Of course in reality I think it's just as likely that you're lying, but even then it's still pretty dumb because you might have tricked me instead.
It's Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, and Maximum Spin. I'm unwilling to see any other combination.
After diving down the rabbit hole Max left for me, I tend to agree with Web.I guess I just don't see how you don't see it. It's exactly the same class of behavior. I mean, I couldn't have asked for a better list of examples.
Knightwing (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337967#msg8337967) in (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337859#msg8337859) Kill (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337868#msg8337868) Webadict (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337873#msg8337873) Now (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337897#msg8337897) acted (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337907#msg8337907) NOTHING (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337953#msg8337953) like (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337960#msg8337960) Knightwing in this game. Perhaps you were thinking of another game?
Then you're dumb. No other way to put it. I know I'm town, so you have forfeited any ability to convince me that you are. If you are 100% convinced that I am scum, then you are an idiot. Of course in reality I think it's just as likely that you're lying, but even then it's still pretty dumb because you might have tricked me instead.Then take the bet.
I mean...After diving down the rabbit hole Max left for me, I tend to agree with Web.I guess I just don't see how you don't see it. It's exactly the same class of behavior. I mean, I couldn't have asked for a better list of examples.
Knightwing (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337967#msg8337967) in (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337859#msg8337859) Kill (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337868#msg8337868) Webadict (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337873#msg8337873) Now (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337897#msg8337897) acted (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337907#msg8337907) NOTHING (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337953#msg8337953) like (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179304.msg8337960#msg8337960) Knightwing in this game. Perhaps you were thinking of another game?
The three Figments hold up their single hands and make flagging motions. It appears there was an error in the start. Our bad, they cry!
Jim Groovester, your Class President, is Anti-Webadict.
Whaaaaattttttttt
D R A M A
These three posts are the same post.Dang. Why are we voting jack?
I'm just not a betting man.Then you're dumb. No other way to put it. I know I'm town, so you have forfeited any ability to convince me that you are. If you are 100% convinced that I am scum, then you are an idiot. Of course in reality I think it's just as likely that you're lying, but even then it's still pretty dumb because you might have tricked me instead.Then take the bet.
Obviously, if I'm scum, that's a win for you, isn't it? Or do you not believe Knightwing is scum? If you think Knightwing isn't scum, then you're Town and you'll vote Jim Groovester. If you think Knightwing is scum, then you can keep your vote there, and we'll vote out Jim Groovester and Knightwing.
I've bet more on less information.
You know what, I'll double down.No, because this would mean I already know I need to vote you out now, and I don't really want to change my vote. I guess if Jim and ToonyMan all agree to do it, sure, we'll collectively vote you out now. I know I just said I wasn't changing my vote, but you know I hate to disappoint when you ask nicely.
If Jim Groovester AND ToonyMan AND Maximum Spin aren't ALL scum, I'll be the first one voted out. Sound fair to you guys?
We'll even go in that order. Jim Groovester -> ToonyMan -> Maximum Spin.
Does that sound fair to you guys?
I frankly don't believe you can be Town if you don't think EuchreJack is Town. You, Toony, and Jim should all know better.If I didn't think he was town, would I keep trying to explain the Knightwing thing to him?
The bet is that, if Jim Groovester flips scum, you get to die! It's that simple.Why would I want that? I think it's entirely possible that he is. Did I stumble into a parallel universe where alt-me defended Jim ever? Lynch Jim all you like.
This is a no lose situation for me. And potentially you.I said I'm not a betting man. I'm not agreeing to this regardless of whether you believe it is optimal. There are some things I just won't do.
The only way I can know that Jim Groovester is scum is if they're my King, which is an automatic win for Town. So, I have to scumread Jim, regardless of my alignment, OR I lose immediately.
If my King is Knightwing, then I lose if you stay on Knightwing. If you're Town, that's a win for you to take the bet.
If I'm the King, then I lose unless you think the scumteam is exactly Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, and me, OR Roden, EuchreJack, or me.
If I'm Town, then you have to acknowledge that I'm scumreading Jim Groovester. If you're Town, you'd take the bet or reconsider that I'm Town, which is a win for me.
Also, Max, you're not the King.Okay, then you have to believe I am town, because I am 100% willing to let you lynch either or both of them. Seriously, try it, see if I do anything to stop you.
Jim is the most likely to be King, and ToonyMan is the second most likely.
But, it's prooooobably Jim.
I mean... Thing is, if Jim Groovester flips Traitor, we're still voting ToonyMan, and if ToonyMan flips Traitor, we're still voting you."What do you mean we, white man?"
I was really just letting it be a bit more official so that I could be held accountable.
I just hate to see someone be so smugly wrong.Roden.
How about this. If I'm not scum, who do you think is the next most likely?
*reads three pages of nonsense*This is exactly what I expected. A last minute shift when called out. Classic. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=179207.msg8333948#msg8333948)
Bite me, Webadict.
You have an absolute stubbornness and arrogance in logic. Your "holier than thou" attitude disways other players from disagreeing with you (whether through timidness or exhaustion) and tricks more sheepy players to nod their head and accept your crooked reasoning.
Your congo line of death involving myself and Jim/Max is purely to fuel your ego and gloat if it resolves.
This ability you've claimed has driven me mad up the wall. I want to believe you're just boldly claiming something that Tric bestowed the King, as behaviorally I strongly believe you're scum even if the OP ability mechanically clashes with it. I just wouldn't put it past Tric.
...To hell with it, I should have done this earlier. Webadict. Let's throw down. As Max put it I'm sick of your smugness and think you deserve a smack to the face. I think it's possible your behavior about Knightwing has been staged and Jack has been playing along. In other words in this scenario: you're King and Jack is one of the guards. Your plan would grant an autowin if you could lynch two Rebels today, which is likely to happen with you in control.
*reads three pages of nonsense*I don't trust ToonyMan in this game, but every part of this that describes webadict's attitude is completely right.
Bite me, Webadict.
You have an absolute stubbornness and arrogance in logic. Your "holier than thou" attitude disways other players from disagreeing with you (whether through timidness or exhaustion) and tricks more sheepy players to nod their head and accept your crooked reasoning.
Your congo line of death involving myself and Jim/Max is purely to fuel your ego and gloat if it resolves.
This ability you've claimed has driven me mad up the wall. I want to believe you're just boldly claiming something that Tric bestowed the King, as behaviorally I strongly believe you're scum even if the OP ability mechanically clashes with it. I just wouldn't put it past Tric.
...To hell with it, I should have done this earlier. Webadict. Let's throw down. As Max put it I'm sick of your smugness and think you deserve a smack to the face. I think it's possible your behavior about Knightwing has been staged and Jack has been playing along. In other words in this scenario: you're King and Jack is one of the guards. Your plan would grant an autowin if you could lynch two Rebels today, which is likely to happen with you in control.
Your "holier than thou" attitude disways other players from disagreeing with you (whether through timidness or exhaustion) and tricks more sheepy players to nod their head and accept your crooked reasoning.and are dissuaded (sorry, ToonyMan, had to do it) from agreeing with someone who's being pushy and obnoxious about it.
@Max: I can't believe you're Town unless you accept EuchreJack is Town, though.Why should I think EuchreJack is town? Is he behaving as if he is town, and not a good enough player to fake it? I'm serious, I want you to explain this. Give me the reason, don't just tell me I have to accept it. I don't accept anything I'm told I have to accept, on principle.
I find it hard to believe that you're all so casual about Jim Groovester being voted out, which is why I think he's the King.Why do you find this hard to believe? Have I done anything that suggests I care?
then I will change my vote to the player of your choice who isn't already one of the two top lynch choices (I do not actually know who is at the moment).In fact, lynching two people is the most likely way that Town will actually get to lynch one person of their majority's choosing, as otherwise all town players would have to agree to vote the King.I'd buy this if I thought there was any chance that a majority of people in this forum would ever agree on the right target. :P
I would like to propose a trade, which you know I like to do. If EuchreJack and webadict admit that, by your own arguments, I was completely correct when I said this:then I will change my vote to the player of your choice who isn't already one of the two top lynch choices (I do not actually know who is at the moment).In fact, lynching two people is the most likely way that Town will actually get to lynch one person of their majority's choosing, as otherwise all town players would have to agree to vote the King.I'd buy this if I thought there was any chance that a majority of people in this forum would ever agree on the right target. :P
Your congo line of death involving myself and Jim/Max is purely to fuel your ego and gloat if it resolves.Btw, Toony scumslipped here.
I refuse to believe you're this dumb.Really? I am usually dumber than most people think. That's how I use the element of surprise.
I would like to propose a trade, which you know I like to do. If EuchreJack and webadict admit that, by your own arguments, I was completely correct when I said this:Max was completely correct, and I wish to correct Jim's slanderous speech by saying that Max is indeed the most intelligent (and handsome) player on this board.then I will change my vote to the player of your choice who isn't already one of the two top lynch choices (I do not actually know who is at the moment).In fact, lynching two people is the most likely way that Town will actually get to lynch one person of their majority's choosing, as otherwise all town players would have to agree to vote the King.I'd buy this if I thought there was any chance that a majority of people in this forum would ever agree on the right target. :P
Any bets on when Jim Groovester and Maximum Spin switch to me? Anyone?
If you could not vote me, that also would be great.
Lies
@Max: I think if you think Jim is Town, you should absolutely defend him. I am doing exactly that with Euchre and Knightwing, so I can't use it against you. The goal is to find the truth. Am I right? Maybe, maybe not. But the reason I still post is because the Day isn't done, and a decision hasn't been made. Change my mind! Save Jim if I'm wrong!I don't have an opinion on Jim! I am perfectly willing to let you vote him out! I don't know why you don't seem to understand being neutral on someone. :P
<3I would like to propose a trade, which you know I like to do. If EuchreJack and webadict admit that, by your own arguments, I was completely correct when I said this:Max was completely correct, and I wish to correct Jim's slanderous speech by saying that Max is indeed the most intelligent (and handsome) player on this board.then I will change my vote to the player of your choice who isn't already one of the two top lynch choices (I do not actually know who is at the moment).In fact, lynching two people is the most likely way that Town will actually get to lynch one person of their majority's choosing, as otherwise all town players would have to agree to vote the King.I'd buy this if I thought there was any chance that a majority of people in this forum would ever agree on the right target. :P
My end of the deal delivered as requested.
WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR SURVIVAL EUCHREJACKSurvival is implicitly part of every win condition, because I cannot gloat if I am dead, and what good is victory without gloating?
SURVIVAL IS NOT PART OF THE TOWN WIN CONDITION EUCHREJACK
Honestly, I’m at a loss here, what would you have me do to convince you?Vote Webadict.
Also, Toonyman, you seem pretty grumpy, are u okay?This game is hopeless and unfair.
@Tric the Mod: What happens if either 3 candidates are tied for highest vote, or 2 candidates are tied for the second highest?Generally the Grudgeful King would pick who get's lynched.
Examples: A & B & C candidates with 2 votes, or A candidate with 3 votes and B & C Candidates with 2 votes.
I blame poor planning on my part. Not checking what the numbers for a proper game would be.Also, Toonyman, you seem pretty grumpy, are u okay?This game is hopeless and unfair.
I would like to propose a trade, which you know I like to do. If EuchreJack and webadict admit that, by your own arguments, I was completely correct when I said this:I can't accept that deal. Not because you aren't correct, but because moving your vote would create a tie. Though, if you'd like to move it and not care about the tie, you may feel free to move your vote to ToonyMan because we should absolutely vote out two people. I can't ensure two people are voted out unless you keep your vote there.then I will change my vote to the player of your choice who isn't already one of the two top lynch choices (I do not actually know who is at the moment).In fact, lynching two people is the most likely way that Town will actually get to lynch one person of their majority's choosing, as otherwise all town players would have to agree to vote the King.I'd buy this if I thought there was any chance that a majority of people in this forum would ever agree on the right target. :P
Hey man, that's a completely fair take. You can totally blame me for changing the game, but that doesn't make me a Traitor.Also, Toonyman, you seem pretty grumpy, are u okay?This game is hopeless and unfair.
Inadvisable for Knightwing to unvote, as that creates ways to let Jim Groovester to live. If you'd like to do that, I could convince Maximum Spin to vote me instead. That seems fair.Honestly, I’m at a loss here, what would you have me do to convince you?Vote Webadict.
You don't have the same attitude as me and certainly not the attitude I would expect about being voted so there is no way we could both be town.Uh, Roden has done even less than Knightwing, so getting him to unvote would be a good idea. I would enjoy Roden voting for Jim or Knightwing, so that we avoid ties.
Like, I feel bad because this isn't really the game you signed up for. But I have to point out that this is more or less a scum claim.Also, Toonyman, you seem pretty grumpy, are u okay?This game is hopeless and unfair.
That wasn't a scumslip. This game is hopeless for town because King Webadict is propping himself as confirmed town with their double lynch ability which you and Jack are simply supporting unabashedly.What's the solve otherwise?
It's Roden, Jack, and Web.
But, if that's true, why would Euchre and I be your top suspects? Why not Jim and Max?I don't see who could possibly be the third scum if Jim and Max are. It's not Knightwing. It's not Jack. It's not you. It would have to be Roden which I don't believe.
You always do this as mafia. You always act like you're untouchable and power control the game. You're fine with Jim and Knightwing dying because it just wins you the game. I am not fine with this.I actually do this as any alignment, but you usually equate it with whatever alignment you need to fit your version of events at the time you say it.
But what if I voted webadict with only three hours left in the day?This is not unexpected. However, by this point, I see it won't matter where Maximum Spin votes if you can get Knightwing to unvote, since that allows a three way tie where the King picks someone other than Townies, which doesn't seem particularly concerning to you guys because you, again, don't really care who gets voted out.
This is a terrible post.
Okay, but why would Jim and Max vote for Knightwing if they didn't think he was scum? Why didn't they pursue the truth of Knightwing's alignment? Why didn't they pursue Roden? Or each other?But, if that's true, why would Euchre and I be your top suspects? Why not Jim and Max?I don't see who could possibly be the third scum if Jim and Max are. It's not Knightwing. It's not Jack. It's not you. It would have to be Roden which I don't believe.
I lay my life down for Jim Groovester, true heir to the throne.
May we find victory in our election...no...our conquest.
Three cheers to Jim the King!And the fact that Jim isn't jumping on you for being blantantly scummy would indicate that ToonyMan is a good secondary candidate for King, which is why I'm okay with the order I purported.
Hip hip, hooray!
Hip hip, hooray!
Hip hip, hooray!
Not much I can really do here now...That wasn't the deal, now was it?
EuchreJack I guess.
You didn't accept it. I guess EuchreJack did, though, and he asked me not to vote for him, so even though I said I'd only do it it both of you agreed, I'll be nice. webadict. There, just like you wanted.Not much I can really do here now...That wasn't the deal, now was it?
EuchreJack I guess.
unvoteBeing all stubborn, eh? If I'm willing to trade Jim for me, why aren't you?
Because I'm the King, obviously.unvoteBeing all stubborn, eh? If I'm willing to trade Jim for me, why aren't you?
Ah, are you going to answer Euchre and I? That'd be funny, what with you not wanting to vote ToonyMan to tie the votes, nor to pile on Jim Groovester. That'd be a better gambit.Why would I vote him? He's already in the lead. Jim Groovester if it makes you -- damn it, missed by seconds anyway. Well, we'll suck it up.
I assume you can't vote Jim Groovester because he's your real King?
Those dirty Ellif are still playing their games. But you aren't that easy to kill. Having set a trap for those lured by their false promises, you've snuck in disguised as an ordinary dwarf to help find and execute those traitors. Naturally, as the one True King and elected President of these dwarves, you shall find and eliminate them yourself.
Ability - Democratic Rule(1-Shot): You can demand an additional player be Lynched by PMing at least 24 hours before the end of the Day. However at the end of the day if you failed to lynch a Traitor, you will be killed by the Grudgeful King. If the Grudgeful King is lynched while this ability is active and a Traitor isn't, Town's Win Condition becomes Lynching all Traitors. Using this power will reveal this is not a standard game. I'll put up the Notice in thread as soon as possible.
Win Condition: Lynch the Grudgeful King.
Lose Condition: The Grudgeful King and his Traitors Outnumber The True Dwarves. (For this condition you count as a True Dwarf by definition. Your being lynched does not lose the game for town, though does mean Fortree is going to need a new president after this.)
Hidden Condition: If the Grudgeful King and 1 True Dwarf are the only ones remaining, the rest of Town votes. (Others do not know this.)
Fuck me.I'm baffled that you thought that EuchreJack was scum, but I'm floored that you thought ToonyMan wasn't scum. I don't care if you thought I was scum, but it shouldn't matter if you think I'm scum if I'm trying to get discussion going.
Yeeeeep, that's exactly what I figured.Okay, but you didn't really try to push the vote or discussion in a direction that would help.
Way to go.
Knightwing was the King. I couldn't tell if Jack or Roden was the other Guard. I had to play a little dirty given the situation, sorry. I 100% thought Jack was the other Guard halfway in so I was wrong about that. Their complete silence when Jim told them to vote Knightwing made me really confident, but I guess that was incorrect.Eh. It's hard playing a 7 player game with 5 people.
I'm never playing with Roden or Knightwing in a game that requires attendance to play. It's not fun playing with lurkers.I don't disagree, but I don't see how you didn't realize they were both scum when you should know this is what both of them do as scum.
Okay, but you didn't really try to push the vote or discussion in a direction that would help.I got in here only shortly before my first post today, after everyone had already moved from obvscum knightwing to you (who I was pretty sure was town), and I didn't have much time to say anything even then. In the gaps between my posts today I was mostly not even here. Besides, I clearly didn't have the power to convince you. So I pretty much figured, welp, guess town's losing, might as well find something else to do.
Also, I had to use the double elimination ability: The mafia got to choose the target in the case of a tie, which means that a miselimination on Day 1 means game over.At that point the game would have become one of chameleon, where town has to hide they are town. Which is it's own fun idea.
Fuck me.I'm baffled that you thought that EuchreJack was scum, but I'm floored that you thought ToonyMan wasn't scum. I don't care if you thought I was scum, but it shouldn't matter if you think I'm scum if I'm trying to get discussion going.
I got in here only shortly before my first post today, after everyone had already moved from obvscum knightwing to you (who I was pretty sure was town), and I didn't have much time to say anything even then. In the gaps between my posts today I was mostly not even here. Besides, I clearly didn't have the power to convince you. So I pretty much figured, welp, guess town's losing, might as well find something else to do.I didn't really care if Knightwing was the king. It actually didn't matter. Using the ability automatically made it so that the elimination of the King didn't end the game:
Before that, I seem to recall that I was pushing the vote in the direction of Knightwing being obviously scum. I can't quite remember if that was right or not, would you remind me?
Look, man, a little humility would be nice. You were so goddamn sure of yourself, even I wanted to switch my vote to you even though I thought you were town. Is it any surprise that Jim did? Now you're just pettily grumbling again, accusing Roden, Knightwing, Jim, and me of all screwing it up for you in different ways as if that changes your own mistake; it's like something my mom would do, I swear. Obviously, town loses as a team and there is blame to go around, but you don't need to point out everyone else's.
I'm not trying to be harsh, this is a pattern for you and it'd be a good idea to remember it the next time you feel 100% certain you've single-handedly figured out the scum team, before you start high-handedly choreographing all of town's future votes.
Tell me, seriously, because I want to understand this, why were you so sure that Knightwing couldn't be the king? I don't mean to harp on this, I'm just utterly baffled and I really do want to know what your reasoning was. I need this information for the future.
However at the end of the day if you failed to lynch a Traitor, you will be killed by the Grudgeful King. If the Grudgeful King is lynched while this ability is active and a Traitor isn't, Town's Win Condition becomes Lynching all Traitors.I just didn't tell you the downsides to using the power because it wasn't relevant, since we lost if we didn't vote correctly anyway. I tend not to disclose things like that because I lie, like, 150% of the time.
I didn't really care if Knightwing was the king. It actually didn't matter. Using the ability automatically made it so that the elimination of the King didn't end the game:No, that's not what I mean, I mean that you specifically said that Knightwing wasn't the king, in those words. For example, here:
I just do not believe that Knightwing is the King. [...] If anything, I think Knightwing accidentally spilled Town, but that's personal preference at this point.It's not a matter of not caring, it's that you said he wasn't, and I want to know on what basis, because I could not see him as anything else.
Very good, very fun. These wins just keep getting dumber and I'm here for it.I dunno, I think EuchreJack's win was dumber than this one. This was more like a coordinated town farce where scum just had to let it happen, while in that one he actually shot the wrong two people and won by default.
Really? Winning by trying your best seems a bit less dumb than winning by accepting defeat.I guess that's fair, but they won because ToonyMan didn't accept defeat, and changed off of Knightwing. :P
I didn't really care if Knightwing was the king. It actually didn't matter. Using the ability automatically made it so that the elimination of the King didn't end the game:No, that's not what I mean, I mean that you specifically said that Knightwing wasn't the king, in those words. For example, here:I just do not believe that Knightwing is the King. [...] If anything, I think Knightwing accidentally spilled Town, but that's personal preference at this point.It's not a matter of not caring, it's that you said he wasn't, and I want to know on what basis, because I could not see him as anything else.
Now, I didn't think Knightwing was scum because we had obvtown EuchreJack being attacked by three people for very silly reasons, of which did NOT contain Knightwing. EuchreJack is just an easily read player by me, and that, in itself, is a very identifiable pattern. That's how I work and have always worked, and I'm consistently right about it, even when I'm scum, if you can believe it.I'm laying out the point right there, seems pretty cut and dry to me. Are you perhaps confused by something there?
as well as saying that swapping votes makes people scummier, which is inherently not true from a statistical perspectiveI didn't say that... I very specifically complained about EuchreJack's voting in this particular game setup; don't try to draw any broader generalization from it.
I might've maybe been persuaded with enough evidence to vote for Roden if Jim or Maximum Spin had suggested it, but that'd probably involve them engaging in ways they didn't want to, since they were still treating me like I was a Traitor.No, I didn't think you were a traitor, but I wasn't going to push Roden when Roden was my second target after Knightwing, until either Knightwing was out or other voters made it clear that Knightwing wasn't a viable target and Roden was. My push on Knightwing had adequate support until the very end of day when everything fell apart; before that, I wasn't even trying to convince you to vote for him, since you had the 2×lynch which meant it was better for you to vote for your own top choice. I guess I could have tried to convince you to vote Roden, but: first, my main motivation, given the risks, it seemed better that different people with different theories control each lynch, instead of betting it all on one theory being right; second, I wasn't really going to argue "this Roden just looks indescribably like scum Roden" after I was already arguing "this Knightwing just looks indescribably like scum Knightwing" because I don't expect to get that much credit all in one go; and third and maybe most importantly, I'm just not the kind of guy who usually tries to convince others to vote for someone for whom I'm not voting. I prefer to treat my vote as pretty serious.
My scumhunting style works best when all players are active, and while executing every lurker is a great method, and would've worked in theory, using a lurker execution mentality in this game could've also lead to an instant loss. There was no way to actually test out lurkers, and using the ability before I knew there was lurkers to begin with only made it an extremely high-risk gambit without enough evidence backing it up at all. This is mostly why it was unfun to lose, since there wasn't anything being done on anyone's part except ToonyMan, who did play well, since he was absolutely incriminating Jim Groovester the entire time. To me, lurking is simultaneously the worst way to win and the worst way to lose because it requires the least amount of effort.The thing is, blaming the lurking is a little unavailing to me because, when Knightwing and Roden DID talk, they both looked scummy. I wasn't asking you to lynch Knightwing for being a lurker, I was asking you to lynch him for being his obvious scumself. Sure, I get that you didn't see it, somehow ToonyMan and I were the only ones to see it and ToonyMan had the benefit of already knowing; clearly, it's not as obvious to everyone, and I'm not currently arguing that it should have been – but making it all about the lurking is "missing something crucial".
If I didn't think he was town, would I keep trying to explain the Knightwing thing to him?— and I was doing the same to you so it applies both times. I think you took what I said here too seriously —
Look, I'm trying to be modestly diffident about this but you are really making me feel like the scum team is just knightwing/Jack/webadict. If you're town and don't want to lose the game, you need to do better than to just say something that is obviously the opposite of reality.— but you need to understand that, if I thought that was the most likely team, I wouldn't have said it, since I would not want to give you the opportunity to convince me otherwise. In this case I was explicitly giving you the opportunity to convince me otherwise.
Max said earlier that I'm emotional as scum, but I think I'm just as emotional as town.It's a little more complicated than that. As scum, you believe you are more emotional as town than you actually are, or maybe just not quite in the same way. It leaves a mark. On the other hand, it's a mark that was missing in, say, the last game of the ticking Fallacy marathon, possibly because webadict was on your team so you weren't arguing with him; I remember thinking you seemed a little like your scumself in the first round, then doubting that after all that went on, so that I ended up trusting you by the end (which was obviously the wrong decision). So it's not something that's always there, but when you do start to get/act angry, there's something hard to describe that shows through.
I wasn't going to engage with logic explaining why someone was scum when I'm already using logic and intuition on why they aren't scum[...]My scumhunting style works best when all players are active[...]Does that help explain my mindset, Max?Look, I get it. I was using intuition too, as always. I understand the value of it. The harsh truth of the problem is just this: I can't recall having ever seen your intuition, scumhunting style, or mindset actually win a game. Certainly not without making a lot of mistakes along the way (and usually specifically turning on me for some reason). That's not even that bad, everyone makes mistakes, but it seems to me that, every time you feel 100% convinced and unwilling to consider alternatives about the wrong thing, that should be a big deal that changes how you think about things going forward; but you seem content to say, oh well, I'm just a stubborn and arrogant guy, guess them's the breaks. At the end of the day I don't even care that much, I'm not your mom and you can play how you like – it's just staggering to me that you don't see this as a problem the way I would.
I can't recall having ever seen your intuition, scumhunting style, or mindset actually win a game. Certainly not without making a lot of mistakes along the way (and usually specifically turning on me for some reason).Totem Mafia was won by me, unless you think pressing TricMagic was too big of a mistake, or something else of that manner. But, winning a game is winning a game. Calculated risks are a part of that.
Totem Mafia was won by me, unless you think pressing TricMagic was too big of a mistake, or something else of that manner. But, winning a game is winning a game. Calculated risks are a part of that.No, it's actually just that I don't remember Totem Mafia at all, so I couldn't include it among games that I recall. I only remember that I was a pangolin and got killed really quickly. For anything else, I'll take your word for it. I'm sure you do win, rather the point I was making is this: you seem to expect me to trust your instincts, since you shouted at me a lot for not being willing to say EuchreJack was locktown, but you need to actually build that trust first. How can you expect me to accept your idea of your insight into EuchreJack when in the same breath you said that I was definitely scum this game? You can say, well, you're good at one thing and not the other, but I can only judge your intuition as a whole. Since you express such confidence about things I know are definitely wrong, your confidence is inherently not something I can count on. You can't go back and tell me you took a calculated risk when you said you were certain. I mean, you can, but you can't then expect me to believe you when you say you're certain the next time.
The point is that it's not never, and I think that what you said is from a place of emotion rather than logic.
I think you are putting words and motivations in my mouth, though. It's not that I am unwilling to change. The truth is more in the middle: It is not any more my responsibility to change than it is yours. I gave you the rationale behind my actions so that you would understand, and what you choose to do with that information is up to you. I made the moves that I thought would be most beneficial, and if you think I should change how I play, then why should I listen when you refuse to acquiesce the same?Look, I think I'm not expressing what I want very well here. I know that I have a tendency to argue "all over the place" because I keep trying to follow up on stray thoughts and account for everything the other party might possibly say. I wrote out a long paragraph here, but I have deleted it to replace with this one (that will probably end up being just as long), and simply say: I don't want you to change how you play. I just want us, next time, to work less at cross-purposes and not waste so much energy arguing over something that didn't even matter because neither of us even wanted the other to change his vote. All that accomplished was giving ToonyMan a good enough reason to change his vote that Jim was convinced to follow along. Sure, we can say, Jim was wrong to do it, but it shouldn't have been that easy. I always think everyone should go with his gut in this game, but you seem to have - said that you did - scumread me for not going with your gut. Everything I have been saying is just to say "this is why I'm not willing to trust your word completely, so please don't think I'm scum just because I don't trust your word completely". This has the unfortunate effect of making it sound like I think you're a bad player because I'm complaining about your instincts not being good enough, but the thing is, I'm only saying that they're not good enough for me to be perfectly confident in them. That's not really that bad, because it's an infinitely high bar. So, I don't want you to get sidetracked by thinking that I'm telling you you need to change your strategy... I just hope you'll be more understanding that other people (in this case, me and Jim) don't always follow your intuition as faithfully. I mean, even then — jeez, this might end up longer than the one I deleted now — even if you do scumread people for that, that's one thing, but I think the lengthy argument over nothing between us was unnecessary and I don't want to repeat that every game because it just makes it easier for the mafia. I think I can leave it at that for now, hopefully that was clear enough.
I'd say that if you happen to encounter a problem like this again, and Euchre isn't around to fix it, a short post recommending a different course of action may be more persuasive than any longer post. I figure that's a good compromise, since it allows a reset period.I'll do my best. I tend to be either too terse or too prolix, never in between.