Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: ayy1337 on December 20, 2022, 09:35:00 pm
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I regret purchasing the steam edition of dwarf fortress, not because the game is bad or the interface still needs some work or even the fact my framerate drops to 5 when looking at a busy section of fort - as the game as fantastic, and the little issues will be worked out over time. No, I regret my purchase because the publisher, Kitfox as a policy is banning people from their discord for posting a cartoon frog over an imagined association with the alt right.
It's all well and good to be leery of political discussion in a gaming community, as frankly it's off topic and not why anyone is there, however pepe the frog is neither inherently political or uniquely associated with any group. There's a million different pepe emojis drawn doing different things and they're used all over the internet in discord, twitch and other gaming communities.
If they want to take this particular stance and make some political statement I guess that's their prerogative, but I have to voice my opposition and disappointment that they are connected with this game that I love. If I could refund my purchase and donate to Toady directly for his work instead that is what I would do and I will encourage my friends to do so instead as well.
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Donating without a purchase might make you feel better. Steam selling millions ensures that Tarn and Zach can continue developing the game in the way they want to develop the game forever more.
The downside is commercialism and all that that entails.
I would focus on the positive. Valve also took a cut of your money and I'm sure you can dig up past instances of diabolical behaviour on their part if you look hard enough.
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Does Itch.io also have political agendas?
I don't know, but that's where I bought it.
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Does Itch.io also have political agendas?
I don't know, but that's where I bought it.
Kitfox get exactly the same cut from the game being sold at Itch, so kind of irrelevant to the OP's post?
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Oops, I shouldn't post when half asleep, lol.
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May I suggest you post this to Kitfox? Their forums or customer support might be a more effective place to air your grievances.
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Not to speak for the Adamses but I'm reasonably sure they share this stance on Pepe and partnered with Kitfox because they share ideals, and Tarn was already known to work with the founder of Kitfox on several panels, articles, etc.
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Bay12 is quite open to discussion of political topics, just look at the general forums where a lot of political ideas are discussed. I can imagine however that when trying to run forums, or anything social media related it is hard to weed out the trolls, and to be fair, pepe has become a symbol for trolling, not even always related to the right. The meaning of a symbol or character can change when certain groups run away with it, just look at the swastika. I know the original creator of Pepe the Frog is quite upset about the whole situation. Anyhow, it's come to a point where using a Pepe emoi is a statement whether you want it or not.
I'm just happy I don't have to deal with forum moderation, just visiting the steam forums has made me remember how anoying that must be, though it looks like they are getting on top of the issues now. Moderation rules will (and should) always be a source of discussion, and the trolls will find new stuff to cling to when you plug one hole, but that does not mean you have to give up and not try to set some rules, I don't know if banning Pepe's is a sensible rule, but I understand it.
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and Tarn was already known to work with the founder of Kitfox on several panels, articles, etc.
They published 2 books together. Procedural Generation in Game Design (https://a.co/jfg1YAM) & Procedural Storytelling in Game Design (https://a.co/e5jlos1)
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i don't agree with the rule, I also think current day pepe users are generally uncreative people who should move on from a 2010's meme from 420chan (I would know, i was there when it was created . . . before the great nazification and polarization of the chans, 420chan was a fairly leftist place),
but I don't think this thread is going to reach anyone who might make a change to that policy, and will simply attract a certain style of discussion that (inevitably) forces a cameo from the Great Toad himself, who will not read your post but simply lock the thread because who tf has time for that??
tl;dr you are persecuting yourself, just like the rest of the alt right
[nobump] if I could
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i don't agree with the rule, I also think current day pepe users are generally uncreative people who should move on from a 2010's meme from 420chan (I would know, i was there when it was created . . . before the great nazification and polarization of the chans, 420chan was a fairly leftist place),
but I don't think this thread is going to reach anyone who might make a change to that policy, and will simply attract a certain style of discussion that (inevitably) forces a cameo from the Great Toad himself, who will not read your post but simply lock the thread because who tf has time for that??
tl;dr you are persecuting yourself, just like the rest of the alt right
[nobump] if I could
"Persecuting yourself." "Just like the rest.." Hmm.
It always bewilders me how people get so righteous, especially over the magical frog. There's plenty of communities that aren't alt right communities where people just enjoy the meme aspect of Pepe. Equating your artistic opinion of the meme quality of Pepe with some sort of political truth about someone is a bit disingenuous, but so is banning him in the first place.
But I agree Toady probably would side with Kitfox here. Not that I agree, as I probably disagree on many fronts politically with the Toad, but that that's not why I'm here, because he's made a great game and I'd support him either way. I think people generally have this same sentiment though, and are just stirred up about it a bit more now since Kitfox isn't the Toad and is a bit of an outsider and perhaps more active on the political front than the Toad is.
May I suggest you post this to Kitfox? Their forums or customer support might be a more effective place to air your grievances.
In my anecdotal experience, the sorts of people who go out of their way to ban things like meme formats such as Pepe are generally quite entrenched in their beliefs for doing so, and aren't interested in hearing any dissenting arguments.
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I regret purchasing the steam edition of dwarf fortress, not because the game is bad or the interface still needs some work or even the fact my framerate drops to 5 when looking at a busy section of fort - as the game as fantastic, and the little issues will be worked out over time. No, I regret my purchase because the publisher, Kitfox as a policy is banning people from their discord for posting a cartoon frog over an imagined association with the alt right.
It's all well and good to be leery of political discussion in a gaming community, as frankly it's off topic and not why anyone is there, however pepe the frog is neither inherently political or uniquely associated with any group. There's a million different pepe emojis drawn doing different things and they're used all over the internet in discord, twitch and other gaming communities.
If they want to take this particular stance and make some political statement I guess that's their prerogative, but I have to voice my opposition and disappointment that they are connected with this game that I love. If I could refund my purchase and donate to Toady directly for his work instead that is what I would do and I will encourage my friends to do so instead as well.
I think that, if a Discord-moderation decision is a step too far for you, you simply aren't going to be buying much from game-studios, which... You know, fairs dos, Dwarf Fortress isn't the kind of game most game studios make, but I don't think Kitfox's aim to make a political statement so much as to have an official Discord that isn't full of unsavory people like alt-rightists, and banning Pepe the frog is now a much more reliable heuristic to that end than it was pre-2016. Obviously it's not perfect, but the folks at Kitfox are not chiefly in the business of managing an online community, and so the occasional false positive isn't going to trouble them too much. I guarantee that you are giving this far more thought than they ever have, and I think you will be a much happier person if you resign yourself to buying things from people who disagree with you, so long as they aren't, say, employing slave-labor
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It always bewilders me how people get so righteous, especially over the magical frog. [..]
Everyone, even people not from the usa, knows what it is associated with and what it is a dog whistle for, lets not pretend otherwise.
I have no idea what Kitfox policy is or what actually transpired in that instance. There seem to be one or more users (maybe the same person) with an axe to grind about getting banned at kitfox discord, and people here using the opportunity to talk politics.
The OP have other communities they can participate in like here, steam, reddit etc.. And other avenues to support the game as noted in very first reply.
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Everyone, even people not from the usa, knows what its associated with and what is is a dog whistle for, lets not pretend otherwise.
Someone should tell the protesters in Hong Kong, or basically every twitch channel and discord server where it's just an emoji.
I think you will be a much happier person if you resign yourself to buying things from people who disagree with you, so long as they aren't, say, employing slave-labor
It's not that I mind buying things from people who disagree with me, because I don't care what they believe. I'm taking issue that they are 1) assuming my beliefs from a popular emoji of a cartoon frog, and 2) care enough about my assumed beliefs to ban me for that.
I don't know about or care about Toady's political beliefs and I don't think he cares about mine, but if he started banning people from the forums because he was assuming their personal beliefs based on their posting style I would have misgivings about that too.
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So, which actually happened?
1) You posted a frog and were banned. Later to discover that said frog was against Kitfox's Discord rules.
Or
2) You knew the rules, posted anyway. Were warned that they have a blanket ban on frog memes, so you posted again and were banned?
Because none of the above assumes anything about your beliefs, except that 2 implies you don't care about their rules. So obviously you're going to end up banned.
Toady has rules and warnings and bannings too you know. No different to anywhere else.
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It always bewilders me how people get so righteous, especially over the magical frog. [..]
Everyone, even people not from the usa, knows what it is associated with and what it is a dog whistle for, lets not pretend otherwise.
Being from the USA does not make someone more knowledgeable about net culture than people from other countries.
OP;
Just let them sterotype people into a group they don't like based on assumptions they make so they can exclude them and move on. It's fine.
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So, which actually happened?
1) You posted a frog and were banned. Later to discover that said frog was against Kitfox's Discord rules.
Or
2) You knew the rules, posted anyway. Were warned that they have a blanket ban on frog memes, so you posted again and were banned?
Because none of the above assumes anything about your beliefs, except that 2 implies you don't care about their rules. So obviously you're going to end up banned.
Toady has rules and warnings and bannings too you know. No different to anywhere else.
Indeed.
Being from the USA does not make someone more knowledgeable about net culture than people from other countries.
It does when we are talking about the "anglosphere" side of the net e.g. there are billion Chinese whose net culture would look very foreign to someone from the USA.
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It always bewilders me how people get so righteous, especially over the magical frog. [..]
Everyone, even people not from the usa, knows what it is associated with and what it is a dog whistle for, lets not pretend otherwise.
I have no idea what Kitfox policy is or what actually transpired in that instance. There seem to be one or more users (maybe the same person) with an axe to grind about getting banned at kitfox discord, and people here using the opportunity to talk politics.
The OP have other communities they can participate in like here, steam, reddit etc.. And other avenues to support the game as noted in very first reply.
Nah, it's literally just an emote. Pepe is an icon of meme culture. Maybe not so much in the most whitewashed and squeaky clean boards of the net, and maybe used more by people in my camp who are further away from "politically correct", but far from alt-right. Making blanket statements like that is silly and possibly just as harmful as people actually spreading alt-right stuff around. Which is to say both aforementioned groups are largely ignored outside of alarmist circles so both are fairly harmless.
Like jeez, internet is just full of ideological puritans these days crusading against other ideological puritans.
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I am very loathe to get into discussions like this. But I genuinely feel the need to chime in at this point. The assumptions being made here, by a lot of people in this thread, are outright absurd. For example, here's one of the things I dislike immensely, among more than one in this thread.
Several, in this thread, apparently assume that if you're from the US, or the "anglosphere", or anything else you want to call this place where some of us live, that the following premise I'm about to point out is true. If I'm incorrect in this, or I've misinterpreted some of your rather specific posts (or so they seem to me), then I apologize in advance. Before I state this example, here's a reminder of my situation, should you choose to believe it (and it is 100% true, though you have only my word for it). I frequent the internet, and gaming sites especially, quite a bit.
Now, I'm sure some will want to refute this as not being truthful, but it may shock you to know that, until this very moment, I've never even HEARD of this pepe the frog thing. Not once.
This is just an example of how dangerous (and frankly, potentially offensive), some of your assumptions are about others. I see some of you (not all of course) just throwing these assumptions around willy-nilly. You think you know others whom you've never even met. You think you can pigeon-hole them into certain categories. I suggest that perhaps you should examine your own house first, before lobbing holier-than-thou accusations at folks you don't know.
Some might even say that thats the very thing I'm doing by posting this. I want to say that, in my estimation for whatever that's worth, the difference is, I'm making no assumptions about who you are as an individual, or what you believe, or where you come down on some arbitrary political spectrum, or anything else. I am simply speaking about the very specific posting behavior being made here, in posts in this thread, and that alone. It's that very specific behavior, in and of itself, that I am calling out as itself being extremely narrow-minded, and quite potentially rising to the level of antagonistic, hostile, and offensive.
Again, we don't know each other. I'm willing to bet that, in real life, we all have a great many dreams and fears in common, and all love gaming especially. Maybe that common ground alone is enough for us to respect each other, be kind, and not just throw around what amounts to nasty stereotypes.
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The frog is kind of funny sometimes but in basically 100% of conversations I've seen like this it eventually turns out the guy complaining about overzealous moderation was being way worse than he wants people to think.
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The assumptions being made here, by a lot of people in this thread, are outright absurd.
You mean like taking the OP story at face value? With people following the provided framing with their political biases.
it may shock you to know that, until this very moment, I've never even HEARD of this pepe the frog thing. Not once.
Not sure how you being an exception to the rule is relevant to the tone deafness comment, unless you are still arguing about whether the OP was handled sensibly, in which case I encourage to read Shonai_Dweller comment about rules, otherwise I think that floating it here is pointless.
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The frog is kind of funny sometimes but in basically 100% of conversations I've seen like this it eventually turns out the guy complaining about overzealous moderation was being way worse than he wants people to think.
The full scenario was I commented about my dwarves doing something silly and posted an angry pepe - actually fairly sure it was my first post in the DF discussion channel as I just went there to report a bug earlier - then some mod DM'd me a warning you can't post pepes in the server, I said I couldn't see anything in the rules about pepe, but he pointed it out under the heading "personal attacks and harassment" that I skimmed because, like, why would it be there lol. And so I found it is in fact against the rules, as they state because it's associated with hate groups. I told him what I thought of such a rule and that I wouldn't follow it and if that's a problem he should just ban me now. Is that me being way worse than I wanted people to think?
Toady has rules and warnings and bannings too you know. No different to anywhere else.
There's rules and there's rules. Obviously I'm not against rules in general, but that doesn't mean I have to accept every rule. Toady's rules are reasonable, most people make reasonable rules. As I said in the OP even a rule like "please don't discuss politics here as it's off topic" would make sense and be perfectly fine, but this isn't that.
Because none of the above assumes anything about your beliefs
It does because the reason given for it being against the rules is about its association with and use by "hate groups". I even wouldn't complain about a rule saying no pepe because it's stale and cringe, but the implication that by using it I must be a member of a hate group is infuriating.
Hope you all have a merry christmas anyway I probably won't be back until after then.
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So when faced with a request not to do a thing, rather than simply... not doing the thing. Which would really be the easiest thing to do and thousands of people don't do the thing every day, you decided instead that this is a crusade that you need to fight, that it infringes on your rights as a human being that you aren't being allowed to post something on a company's discord server that they don't want on there.
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I, for one, am tired of [the meme frog.] I don't think he's terribly funny, except maybe in an ironic "so unfunny you can't help but laugh at its expense" way. There is an undeniable obsession with it shown by grifters, groypers, and other generally unpleasant individuals on the right. There's a reason they use it. I reckon it's kind of like that saying about whiskey and bourbon. Not all whiskey is bourbon, but all bourbon is whiskey. Not everyone who posts [the funny meme frog] is fash, but basically every fash ever is going to post them at some point.
At the end of the day, man, it's just one corner of the internet you can't post frogs on. You can already do that basically everywhere else. If it's with the goal of providing a safer, more inclusive space for everyone, can't you find it in your heart to just move on?
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If someone told me "hey, man, posting that frog makes you look like an asshole" I for one would simply choose to not post the frog that makes me look like an asshole
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Sounds like good moderation from Kitfox's side.
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The frog is kind of funny sometimes but in basically 100% of conversations I've seen like this it eventually turns out the guy complaining about overzealous moderation was being way worse than he wants people to think.
The full scenario was I commented about my dwarves doing something silly and posted an angry pepe - actually fairly sure it was my first post in the DF discussion channel as I just went there to report a bug earlier - then some mod DM'd me a warning you can't post pepes in the server, I said I couldn't see anything in the rules about pepe, but he pointed it out under the heading "personal attacks and harassment" that I skimmed because, like, why would it be there lol. And so I found it is in fact against the rules, as they state because it's associated with hate groups. I told him what I thought of such a rule and that I wouldn't follow it and if that's a problem he should just ban me now. Is that me being way worse than I wanted people to think?
Badness aside, you literally told her to ban you, so why are you here crying about it.
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The frog is kind of funny sometimes but in basically 100% of conversations I've seen like this it eventually turns out the guy complaining about overzealous moderation was being way worse than he wants people to think.
The full scenario was I commented about my dwarves doing something silly and posted an angry pepe - actually fairly sure it was my first post in the DF discussion channel as I just went there to report a bug earlier - then some mod DM'd me a warning you can't post pepes in the server, I said I couldn't see anything in the rules about pepe, but he pointed it out under the heading "personal attacks and harassment" that I skimmed because, like, why would it be there lol. And so I found it is in fact against the rules, as they state because it's associated with hate groups. I told him what I thought of such a rule and that I wouldn't follow it and if that's a problem he should just ban me now. Is that me being way worse than I wanted people to think?
Badness aside, you literally told him to ban you, so why are you here crying about it.
Her, but yes. (It was me. I swung the hammer)
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I regret purchasing the steam edition of dwarf fortress, not because the game is bad or the interface still needs some work or even the fact my framerate drops to 5 when looking at a busy section of fort - as the game as fantastic, and the little issues will be worked out over time. No, I regret my purchase because the publisher, Kitfox as a policy is banning people from their discord for posting a cartoon frog over an imagined association with the alt right.
It's all well and good to be leery of political discussion in a gaming community, as frankly it's off topic and not why anyone is there, however pepe the frog is neither inherently political or uniquely associated with any group. There's a million different pepe emojis drawn doing different things and they're used all over the internet in discord, twitch and other gaming communities.
If they want to take this particular stance and make some political statement I guess that's their prerogative, but I have to voice my opposition and disappointment that they are connected with this game that I love. If I could refund my purchase and donate to Toady directly for his work instead that is what I would do and I will encourage my friends to do so instead as well.
Like it or not pepe is part of the alt-right much like Hitler seized pagan symbols, so generally companies tend to stay away from that.
Discords can and will be shut down for racism, and while it might not matter for small discord servers, bigger ones where the spotlight is brighter have to be careful.
That being said, companies have the freedom to enforce whatever rules they want, and I don't really see the problem, there are plenty of other places to post pepe pictures, so why hang your flag on one server?
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I want to preface this with my opinions that I don't think pepe is a hategroup only meme, and that I think making things like that taboo only strengthen it's usage and association with hategroups. I put this disclaimer here in hope of you understanding that the following does not hinge on it being an image with a bad reputation.
That said, this is hardly an unreasonable request. If a chat server had a simple rule they ask you to follow then you either follow it or go somewhere else. In the case of a banned motif, it doesn't matter if it's pictures of pepe or, I dunno, wine -- even if you're some kind of fine wine aficionado or wine meme connoisseur you still refrain from posting pictures of wine while in that space. It's basic level politeness. Nobody is asking you to start hating pepes. Nobody is asking you to never post a pepe meme anywhere ever again. They are simply asking you not to in their space, for the short period of time you are there. So why wouldn't you? Do you also talk loudly in the library and skateboard through the mall, just to show that you "don't do what they tell you"?
The frog is kind of funny sometimes but in basically 100% of conversations I've seen like this it eventually turns out the guy complaining about overzealous moderation was being way worse than he wants people to think.
The full scenario was I commented about my dwarves doing something silly and posted an angry pepe - actually fairly sure it was my first post in the DF discussion channel as I just went there to report a bug earlier - then some mod DM'd me a warning you can't post pepes in the server, I said I couldn't see anything in the rules about pepe, but he pointed it out under the heading "personal attacks and harassment" that I skimmed because, like, why would it be there lol. And so I found it is in fact against the rules, as they state because it's associated with hate groups. I told him what I thought of such a rule and that I wouldn't follow it and if that's a problem he should just ban me now. Is that me being way worse than I wanted people to think?
Badness aside, you literally told her to ban you, so why are you here crying about it.
And yeah, this. What did you expect would happen if you say "I won't follow your rules"? The kitfox channel explicitely asks you to agree to their rules to even let you post at all. What you did is no different from going back to that page and unclicking the agree reaction. You reneged on the agreement. They took back your ability to post.
And when you said "I won't follow your rules, kick me if you don't like it" directly to the moderation team, what else can they do? You posted the ultimatum. If they hadn't drawn the line then they might as well told you don't have to follow their rules. Let's go over the scenario again together, as per your own words:
1) You post a banned image
2) Rose (assuming you are correct here and that it was you, Rose) tells you that you can't post that here. She doesn't immediately ban you without a word, instead informs you about the rule and where it says no such images.
3) You tell her you won't follow that rule, and that the mods should ban you if they have a problem with you not following the rule.
4) She bans you.
Do you see how, even though you broke a rule you'd already explicitly agreed to follow when you joined, the moderator at 2) approached you with the prospect that you simply might have missed it, or the expectation that you could at least correctly behave yourself in the future? This is, in my opinion, a good approach to moderation.
Do you understand how at 3), you are the one who escalates this simple correction to a conflict?
Finally, I'm just going to say that you're not going to find much support here on Bay12 either. There are very few things that will get you banned from here, and Toady is very patient as a moderator himself, but one thing that repeatedly comes to mind as getting people banned is what he calls "mod sassing". Ie, challenging the mods over their moderation in a sassy manner. Which, it appears to me, is exactly what you did on the kitfox server.
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This conversation is kinda pointless, but not as pointless as it is to ban someone over posting a picture of a frog. I feel left out of the pointlessness so I wanted to post.
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I want to preface this with my opinions that I don't think pepe is a hategroup only meme
Naturally. You can say the same about swastika originally being a relatively harmless symbol which still have a religious and cultural significance around the world. However, one have to be tone deaf to ignore its political use and stigmatization since the nazi appropriation.
What did you expect would happen if you say "I won't follow your rules"?
Indeed. There is a time and place for everything and flaunting modding decision is generally not a good way to have a productive conversation about community rules. Decision has been made now he should own up to them.
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If someone told me "hey, man, posting that frog makes you look like an asshole" I for one would simply choose to not post the frog that makes me look like an asshole
Hy mn sng vwls mks y lk lk n sshle.
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I want to preface this with my opinions that I don't think pepe is a hategroup only meme
Naturally. You can say the same about swastika originally being a relatively harmless symbol which still have a religious and cultural significance around the world. However, one have to be tone deaf to ignore its political use and stigmatization since the nazi appropriation.
Continuing to do this absurdist comparison of Pepe to the Swastika is just reinforcing the absurdist nature of banning Pepe in the first place. One is far more associated with the right than the other. To be honest, I kinda forgot about the "Pepe is alt-right" meme, I thought that died in 2016. Like, that whole think was basically a troll from 4chan. A troll that's still kinda amusingly reaping dividends, nontheless. I just counted through my discord servers, and I'm in like.... at least 5 that have a liberal usage of Pepe emotes. None of them are even remotely close to being alt right. One of them is a game many Bay12 users may be familiar with themselves, the Aurora 4x server.
I kinda like this thread though, since I think there's merit to both arguments here. This thread seems like, in summary, a combination of "why bother banning Pepe", which is something in itself could be called "tone deaf", and also "why not just obey the rules of a specific Discord server out of politeness", which I also agree with. Biggest issue here, in my opinion, is continuing to equate Pepe to some sort of alt-right symbol. Which, is just silly, given that in all of the servers I'm in that allow Pepe, you'd probably be immediately banned in for posting a swastika. I agree with the poster talking about people making assumptions: association of symbols can be very subjective, and from what I can see, that association of Pepe with the alt-right is a very subjective one that not every gaming group agrees with. But I also don't think Kitfox is really doing that, just that one other poster here.
Take my 2 cents and go buy bacon or something. Merry Christmas and here's to a happy New Year's.
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Here's my own two cents for what they worth (two cents) :
First cent :
• Banning or having as a rule to ban something that ceased to be edgy in 2017 is facially absurd.
• Pepe the frog is not an alt right meme. It's internet culture, a slight connection to 4chan is the edgiest it gets nowaday.
• The very concept of discord kids moderating bay12 oldbeards make me extremely uncomfortable.
Second cent :
• "A company shouldn't ban a paying customer etc." : as someone who have to deal with customers as part of my job, I always found this line of reasoning to be absurd and entitled. You agree to the rules when you enter the shop, if you don't follow them, of course you'll get removed, paying or not.
I'm very sure that the problem is not you posted pepe the frog, a stale meme nobody cares about, but the fact you undermined their authority by doing something that you were specifically asked not to do, hence diminishing their capacity to control the collective behavior of their userbase. The $20 you paid will never worth weeks of effort for the moderation to reassess their authority and cutting you off is a defensible behavior.
• Somehow that situation feel expected, as it is the necessary consequence of the massification of DF. It was inevitable.
I hope that kind of drama will not come settle in bay12 as the number of player rises.
• When you swim with the normies you better not make waves
(https://gaminglight.com/forums/uploads/monthly_2018_11/Santa-PEPE.jpg.eed470717c93c5ab7736401d2f92ce11.jpg)
Mery christmas and happy new year frens
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So after being warned by a moderator, you tell them you have no intention of following the rules and they should ban you if they have a problem with it.
They then do.
You then come here to whine about being banned.
...What were you expecting, exactly?
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This.
If you're a guest in someone else's house, you respect their rules even if you disagree with them, unless you have a particular love of being kicked out on your behind. Same applies to servers.
To continue the metaphor, telling the homeowners after they tell you to stop crapping on their rug that you will continue to do so is probably a quick way to exit. Same applies to servers.
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It sounds like you fucked around and were shocked when you found out. I agree with the whole pepe = alt right thing but you sorta. Told a mod you had no intent to listen. Of course you got removed?
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It really went in here, hum.
Before the current spread in many media areas (as noted before), the context of pepe in 2016ish was in a really toxic environment//in favorable or common use by hate groups/4chan--commonly using reductivity, dismissiveness, and bad faith to spread tones from bigotry to worse. Didn't help that many depictions were worsened from where they were taken to make fun of others espefiallt marginalized people or mis/disrepresent their arguments. The artist who made the character had to kill the character off and such, seeing the impact and common use of their work. Excusing any of this as "any symbol can be used for hate" can literally miss...that it was already done and has impacted tons of people; people don't just do this. That was all before Twitch and other platforms got immersed with it by cultural drift, commonly from the same people who would spread it as if innocuous later on and would notably somehow cling to or insist upon its use over others. My badly done notes at 5am having only mediocre experience tracking symbols here. But it doesn't even matter if people remember that time--what matters is that there was something important mentioned.
If innocuous, the best idea to work with is going "Why" and then having detail on why, and then moving with that. If it's so common as plainly washed in the OP, then realizing "perhaps there's a reason why there's this manner of action", like any good faith approach would bring to any reasonable person, much less someone in the position of a public discord moderator. That stuff is stressful and nobody in experience becomes one effectively considering Dwarf Fortress' publisher, gauging their own mental health.
The issue isn't with Kitfox but the persistence to stand upon this as if it matters when... there's Literally Any Other Art present and absolutely no restriction to choosing otherwise espefially when notified about it. It's even mentioned how many times in the server itself--initially the admin folks thought it wasn't as needed to uphold but then it became a wonderful unintentional litmus test as people who worked with decency and genuineness would generally go "oh" after asking "why" and basically Not Do The Thing when it becomes known it factually affects people negatively, and in a server like that, community-building is a focus. As anyone would detail IN GOOD FAITH: People don't need to even bring up the swastika (or non-eurocentric ones) to realize, actually, hate continues on today and perhaps being an international (or even local) context still perhaps has people affected. That there is a significant intensity to it is in the very least important to recognize, unless one's sense of "I'm not affected" is somehow more important than...others' concerns.
So basically it all depends on how much you care about other people vs "you bothering about it". Pretty annoyed that contextual details keep getting washed away by omission, but that's the power of time and memory and repeating something else rather than be accountable and learn. You can do better; there's a lot of space for it. There's more than "regret" there.
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Anybody frogposting in 2022 should be banned without a warning. You're either /pol/ diaspora shitting up the blue boards or you think frogposting is funny. Either way you should not be tolerated anywhere.
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This.
If you're a guest in someone else's house, you respect their rules even if you disagree with them, unless you have a particular love of being kicked out on your behind. Same applies to servers.
To continue the metaphor, telling the homeowners after they tell you to stop crapping on their rug that you will continue to do so is probably a quick way to exit. Same applies to servers.
Just picking a random one of these to respond to because so many people seem to think I'm complaining about being banned, even though I specifically said they should ban me lol. The thing I'm complaining about is not being banned per se, but the stupid rule.
Idk how I can make it clear, maybe imagine instead of pepe they said no posting pictures of burgers, because burgers are American and we don't like Americans.
I don't care about being banned as such on the basis of this rule, because I wouldn't want to be a member of a community which seriously believes this rule - I'm annoyed I've given them money.
I'm very sure that the problem is not you posted pepe the frog, a stale meme nobody cares about, but the fact you undermined their authority by doing something that you were specifically asked not to do, hence diminishing their capacity to control the collective behavior of their userbase. The $20 you paid will never worth weeks of effort for the moderation to reassess their authority and cutting you off is a defensible behavior.
(https://gaminglight.com/forums/uploads/monthly_2018_11/Santa-PEPE.jpg.eed470717c93c5ab7736401d2f92ce11.jpg)
Mery christmas and happy new year frens
You'd think it's just a stale meme nobody cares about but they care about it enough to single it out in the rules as verboten.
Happy new year to you as well fren.
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You complained that them having a rule was a personal attack on your values. It was pointed out to you that them having a rule and you breaking it deliberately and asking to be banned simply shows that you don't care about their rules and they were right to ban you regardless of whether you're a neo-nazi or not.
Rule is right, wrong, who knows? Prove that it hasn't been an alt-right meme in any country in the world since 2015 and they may listen to you. Throw a tantrum and you're just another rule-ignoring nobody that they don't need spamming their discord.
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Again, you entered their house, you agreed to their rules. You don't like it, get out and you did. You may not agree with that rule, but changing it is not up to you. If you think it's a stupid rule, you're welcome to, free internet. But damn, move on. It's one Discord on the wide Internet, you'll find one that'll let you post a poorly drawn frog somewhere.
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It's not that I mind buying things from people who disagree with me, because I don't care what they believe. I'm taking issue that they are 1) assuming my beliefs from a popular emoji of a cartoon frog, and 2) care enough about my assumed beliefs to ban me for that.
Here is your misunderstanding. A rule that bans Pepe for its ASSOCIATION with hate groups DOES NOT mean they are claiming YOU are a member of a hate group for using it.
Memes have different meanings to different people. Pepe might come across negative and hateful to enough people that it warranted a ban on it, EVEN WITH THE UNDERSTANDING that it can often be used as a totally inert meme.
It's simply a statement that it may come across to enough people as ambiguous or hateful that it is has been decided to be banned.
I don't know where you live, but In Canada and US the "V" hand-sign means "peace" and is often used authentically as a positive symbol, but did you know the "V" hand-sign is considered offensive in the UK/Ireland/Autralia/Newzealand? Lets imagine a discord (with some population of people from all these countries) decides to ban the V hand symbol because IT IS OFTEN ASSOCIATED with hate, because a lot of people in that discord are from a culture where it is IN FACT a hateful symbol. You post it, NOT intending to be hateful, but instead mean it as a legitimate Peace sign. The moderators contention is that it's ambiguous, and that some people interpret the V sign as an insult, and probably isn't the best symbol to use in their server with many UK/etc people. They ask you nicely to stop using it. They are not actually claiming that YOU are using it in a hateful way, only that it can be (and in fact, WILL BE) interpreted as hateful to many people in that discord.
Instead of saying "Sure! Not posting the V hand sign emoji in this one server is a pretty small deal"
You say: "I wont follow that rule and if that's a problem you should just ban me now."
EDIT: Grammar
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Funnily enough kids from Japan on their first trip abroad to Hawaii have to be warned that posing for a photo with a peace sign (as all Japanese do) at Pearl Harbour will be interpreted as a V for Victory sign (something completely unknown in Japan) by certain local folk prone to becoming enraged about historical events.
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You wouldn't want to be part of a community that is that touchy anyway.
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The community doesn't want these types of people either.
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The artist who created Pepe has been on a mission to reclaim Pepe from the neo-fascists. It's being quite successful so far so Pepe shouldn't be automatically assumed to be hate symbol. However, posting a Pepe should be considered a red flag that bears closer inspection.
Daft to boycott DF because KF bans Pepe though. If you should be angry at anyone it's the fash you should be angry at and if you're not, you're probably a fash.
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Anybody frogposting in 2022 should be banned without a warning. You're either /pol/ diaspora shitting up the blue boards or you think frogposting is funny. Either way you should not be tolerated anywhere.
Such hatred and intolerance based on your own personal bigotry over humor. You really should be ashamed but I bet you feel righteous. This is why I say to let the idealogues have their hatred they revel in so much. They have built up an entire ethos to allow themselves to label and hate freely without societal recourse. Shame to waste all that work over morals.
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While I generally agree with the fourfold sentiment of
a) Pepe isn't a hate symbol and anyone who believes as much needs their head checked because they're falling for bait that's almost seven years old.
b) Pepe is fucking stale.
c) Trying to engage with ideologues who hold goofy notions like a) on ground where they have moderation powers is a pointless fight.
d) Deliberately rulebreaking anywhere and being surprised when you get banned is unproductive at best.
Toady has rules and warnings and bannings too you know. No different to anywhere else.
this right here is a really bad take. Toady is easily the most reasonable and levelheaded moderator I have ever seen. B12 averages <10 permabans a year, often <5, in a population with at least several thousand active users. B12 is absolutely different even from other (usually overmoderated) forums, never mind corrupt subreddits that shadowdelete comments they don't like and discords run by powertripping manchildren one step away from being gmod rp server admins.
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I regret purchasing the steam edition of dwarf fortress, not because the game is bad or the interface still needs some work or even the fact my framerate drops to 5 when looking at a busy section of fort - as the game as fantastic, and the little issues will be worked out over time. No, I regret my purchase because the publisher, Kitfox as a policy is banning people from their discord for posting a cartoon frog over an imagined association with the alt right.
It's all well and good to be leery of political discussion in a gaming community, as frankly it's off topic and not why anyone is there, however pepe the frog is neither inherently political or uniquely associated with any group. There's a million different pepe emojis drawn doing different things and they're used all over the internet in discord, twitch and other gaming communities.
If they want to take this particular stance and make some political statement I guess that's their prerogative, but I have to voice my opposition and disappointment that they are connected with this game that I love. If I could refund my purchase and donate to Toady directly for his work instead that is what I would do and I will encourage my friends to do so instead as well.
I think that, if a Discord-moderation decision is a step too far for you, you simply aren't going to be buying much from game-studios, which... You know, fairs dos, Dwarf Fortress isn't the kind of game most game studios make, but I don't think Kitfox's aim to make a political statement so much as to have an official Discord that isn't full of unsavory people like alt-rightists, and banning Pepe the frog is now a much more reliable heuristic to that end than it was pre-2016. Obviously it's not perfect, but the folks at Kitfox are not chiefly in the business of managing an online community, and so the occasional false positive isn't going to trouble them too much. I guarantee that you are giving this far more thought than they ever have, and I think you will be a much happier person if you resign yourself to buying things from people who disagree with you, so long as they aren't, say, employing slave-labor
The far right has a weird persecution complex.
"Pepe the frog is now a much more reliable heuristic to that end than it was pre-2016"
Agreed
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You complained that them having a rule was a personal attack on your values. It was pointed out to you that them having a rule and you breaking it deliberately and asking to be banned simply shows that you don't care about their rules and they were right to ban you regardless of whether you're a neo-nazi or not.
Rule is right, wrong, who knows? Prove that it hasn't been an alt-right meme in any country in the world since 2015 and they may listen to you. Throw a tantrum and you're just another rule-ignoring nobody that they don't need spamming their discord.
As someone who has been on this forum for many many years. I believe this thread is just some absurd ragebait.
Also, to the creator of this thread pepe is overused. Get some new material.
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Does Itch.io also have political agendas?
I don't know, but that's where I bought it.
As an indie dev i can say that Itch.io gives creators a much larger cut then steam does, if you can buy a game on itch instead of steam and want to support a creator , do it instead every time.
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The frog is kind of funny sometimes but in basically 100% of conversations I've seen like this it eventually turns out the guy complaining about overzealous moderation was being way worse than he wants people to think.
The full scenario was I commented about my dwarves doing something silly and posted an angry pepe - actually fairly sure it was my first post in the DF discussion channel as I just went there to report a bug earlier - then some mod DM'd me a warning you can't post pepes in the server, I said I couldn't see anything in the rules about pepe, but he pointed it out under the heading "personal attacks and harassment" that I skimmed because, like, why would it be there lol. And so I found it is in fact against the rules, as they state because it's associated with hate groups. I told him what I thought of such a rule and that I wouldn't follow it and if that's a problem he should just ban me now. Is that me being way worse than I wanted people to think?
Badness aside, you literally told him to ban you, so why are you here crying about it.
Her, but yes. (It was me. I swung the hammer)
Hey there! :)
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b) Pepe is fucking stale.
sadfrog.jpg
The far right has a weird persecution complex.
"Pepe the frog is now a much more reliable heuristic to that end than it was pre-2016"
Agreed
The right have a weird persecution complex, btw I think we should ban anyone who likes this meme used by them 6 years ago >:(
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(troll removed)
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Really strange seeing this moving out of proportion by focusing only on very specific things and extrapolating that to mischaracterize people v: especially in depiction of Kitfox/"what it means for me" when, as stated by tons of people around and posts unquoted, what was done was very reasonable and appending further malice onto them...because of not being as connected or inferring by this thread (which looks a ton like not being accountable for one's own actions/feelings/introspection) isn't going to be helpful, though that's one intended effect of downplaying others' integrity and the reductivity/omission that can be an integral part of it.
Kitfox built its community upon works and cultural writing from folks like Victoria Tran (author of the article, "designing communities for kindness") and how many more people still continuing it today. That other people's experiences matter while never diminishing others in turn, etc etc etc. The review process for selecting Discord Moderators is very thorough and people are chosen--not that I actually know but based on my experience--on continuous and genuine depth and character. There will always be more to say because of people who understand the impact of what's up, but not when mischaracterization is focused on instead.
Continuing the complaint as if still justified despite having been notified/told about what happened, instead of moving forward in goodwill/growth...doesn't help anyone. Folks have already covered the issue in full in just less than 5 forum pages; this isn't any conundrum or any moral failing--understanding context matters and people have given that in full.
Especially given the fact that...this is all on an emoticon, and there are tons more available that don't have such connotations. If it's Really, Sincerely, Genuinely about the "rule", that's been thoroughly covered already, especially when being told about details behind it. The question could even move to "are you satisfied with this now that you may know more?" All this effort to reinforce something like spitting at someone who told you in good faith not to so something is really needless (metaphor notwithstanding); it doesn't do more or add to what's going on. I mean, maybe it's a cultural issue seeing the effort into this complaint but passive aggressiveness doesn't go well as a whole, across cultures.
If you'll raise complaints, put as much effort into receiving feedback as you would in turn.
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1. The host may not always be right, but he's still the host.
2. See #1.
3. It's a lousy graphic of a frog. If the host doesn't like lousy frog graphics, so be it. Pretty much anyone else, "Lighten up, Francis."
BTW, @The_RyujinLP (and someone on page 1 or so) is correct that this was originally a leftist meme, specifically, a fascist one. Fascist in it's real meaning, not the silly caricature people have of fascists. With the exception of the pot legalization group, the original memes had no problems with authoritarianism, at least when the boot was applied to the right. I have not seen any recent use of it in any fascist context, left or ersatz right.
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1. The host may not always be right, but he's still the host.
2. See #1.
3. It's a lousy graphic of a frog. If the host doesn't like lousy frog graphics, so be it. Pretty much anyone else, "Lighten up, Francis."
BTW, @The_RyujinLP (and someone on page 1 or so) is correct that this was originally a leftist meme, specifically, a fascist one. Fascist in it's real meaning, not the silly caricature people have of fascists. With the exception of the pot legalization group, the original memes had no problems with authoritarianism, at least when the boot was applied to the right. I have not seen any recent use of it in any fascist context, left or ersatz right.
I learned that today... I always thought it was just an ugly frog :D
The only "animated animal" that i were aware was banned is Winnie the bear. But as I grow up with it I am against of its shaming.
As personally learned today it had rightist association, and I am active on the net since the 90's I genuinely belive some person might not know it.
Is it an officialy banned image (as sawitzka) in a country tough?
As if not then it should be so at least people can refer to something official for knowing what is allowed publicly
EDIT my aim was to advocate about clear communication, as i think it is more important than passing trends, but it seems that it is in their rules on discord:
"including Pepe The Frog." so as it is somewhat clear it ain't that bad. (even if i would prefer official lists established legally about what is allowed and what is not, as at the moment those rules are often "arbitrary")
still should be clear with a history to know "since when" it is offensive for them (as if they blamed someone then added the rule, then it is not ok, if they first put in the rule, and the offendant posted after wards that is more on him)
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BTW, @The_RyujinLP (and someone on page 1 or so) is correct that this was originally a leftist meme, specifically, a fascist one. Fascist in it's real meaning, not the silly caricature people have of fascists. With the exception of the pot legalization group, the original memes had no problems with authoritarianism, at least when the boot was applied to the right. I have not seen any recent use of it in any fascist context, left or ersatz right.
What is the real meaning of fascists that puts them to the left?
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Anybody frogposting in 2022 should be banned without a warning. You're either /pol/ diaspora shitting up the blue boards or you think frogposting is funny. Either way you should not be tolerated anywhere.
Such hatred and intolerance based on your own personal bigotry over humor. You really should be ashamed but I bet you feel righteous. This is why I say to let the idealogues have their hatred they revel in so much. They have built up an entire ethos to allow themselves to label and hate freely without societal recourse. Shame to waste all that work over morals.
Huh, wow, this thread is really going places, huh. Kinda curious where it progresses, but this isn't really the place I go to for high-octane political debate, even if I am pleasantly surprised at the diversity of opinion in this community.
While this thread has people's attention I will drop, however, one of my favorite writings on the topic. This isn't Reddit so it satisfies the request of the creator, and it's titled "I can tolerate anyone but the outgroup" (https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/) and it describes in a real good way a different sort of "intolerance paradox" that stands in contrast to the buzzword material people spread nowadays online about how we really need to censor everyone guys because otherwise the spooky intolerant bigots hiding in the woodworks will suddenly take everything over. Even if people genuinely have good intentions with creating more "tolerant" communities as some have described here, this is just me, but I've always been starkly against censorship of any type and believe the best way to fight that is in the open, and to resolve our differences in a way that brings everyone together rather than breeding more antagonism and hate. You have to remember bigoted people have different ideological mindsets than non bigoted people. Simply banning them and saying "we fixed it, we stopped bigotry!" is kinda silly, since you're just radicalizing these types and reinforcing the notion that polite civil society is out to get them and justify their intolerance.
To be clear I'm getting far far higher up in the clouds than funny dorf discord bans the funny frog, and don't think swastikas all over the df discord will solve bigotry, this is just my opinion on the general societal trend we have nowadays on the subject.
That being said, if you don't have your reading glasses (it's rather long) here's my favorite part of the essay,
The Emperor summons before him Bodhidharma and asks: “Master, I have been tolerant of innumerable gays, lesbians, bisexuals, asexuals, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, transgender people, and Jews. How many Virtue Points have I earned for my meritorious deeds?”
Bodhidharma answers: “None at all”.
The Emperor, somewhat put out, demands to know why.
Bodhidharma asks: “Well, what do you think of gay people?”
The Emperor answers: “What do you think I am, some kind of homophobic bigot? Of course I have nothing against gay people!”
And Bodhidharma answers: “Thus do you gain no merit by tolerating them!”
In reference to this, specifically:
Anybody frogposting in 2022 should be banned without a warning. You're either /pol/ diaspora shitting up the blue boards or you think frogposting is funny. Either way you should not be tolerated anywhere.
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Simply banning them and saying "we fixed it, we stopped bigotry!" is kinda silly, since you're just radicalizing these types and reinforcing the notion that polite civil society is out to get them and justify their intolerance.
I don't think anyone really thinks that banning bigots stops them or makes them go away. It's more of denying them a platform to spread their hate and to make those platforms places where the targets of bigots can feel safe (or at least not have to deal with their bullshit).
But yeah, it doesn't solve the underlying issues that cause bigotry.
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While this thread has people's attention I will drop, however, one of my favorite writings on the topic.
That was an excellent article. Thanks for bringing it up.
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BTW, @The_RyujinLP (and someone on page 1 or so) is correct that this was originally a leftist meme, specifically, a fascist one. Fascist in it's real meaning, not the silly caricature people have of fascists. With the exception of the pot legalization group, the original memes had no problems with authoritarianism, at least when the boot was applied to the right. I have not seen any recent use of it in any fascist context, left or ersatz right.
What is the real meaning of fascists that puts them to the left?
Proto-fascism predated Mussolini, some people place it in the late 1800s, but the "official" start was Mussolini, who formalized its description in his book from 1919, I think. He also suggested the use of the term "corporatism", since only Italians could understand the symbolism of the Roman fasces. "Everything for the State, everything within the State, and nothing against the State."
It's an ideology where there is a state-corporate "marriage", but with the state the dominant partner. So long as the industrialists do what the state wants done, industrialists retain nominal title to the factories, but if they balk, never flinch from confiscating the property and giving it to more compliant owners. But it was also more local -- this state supremacy also took the form of the hyper-regulatory state, where citizens are told both what they may not do and what they must do. And this was generally overseen by the businesses, as they saw their employees 6 days a week, and knew who the agitators and subversives were. Doesn't take too much reflection to see the parallels in the modern world, on any number of topics -- climate change, covid, surveillance, environmentalism, censorship, gun control, rent control, wokeness, etc.
Upshot is that fascism is inherently a big government ideology, which aligns closely with modern (American) leftism, and with global neoconservatism, and especially with the radical globalism of actors like the WEF. It does not have much in common with the limited government conservatism of Reagan or Thatcher.
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The frog is kind of funny sometimes but in basically 100% of conversations I've seen like this it eventually turns out the guy complaining about overzealous moderation was being way worse than he wants people to think.
The full scenario was I commented about my dwarves doing something silly and posted an angry pepe - actually fairly sure it was my first post in the DF discussion channel as I just went there to report a bug earlier - then some mod DM'd me a warning you can't post pepes in the server, I said I couldn't see anything in the rules about pepe, but he pointed it out under the heading "personal attacks and harassment" that I skimmed because, like, why would it be there lol. And so I found it is in fact against the rules, as they state because it's associated with hate groups. I told him what I thought of such a rule and that I wouldn't follow it and if that's a problem he should just ban me now. Is that me being way worse than I wanted people to think?
Badness aside, you literally told him to ban you, so why are you here crying about it.
Her, but yes. (It was me. I swung the hammer)
We agree that it was explicitly stated in the rules "before" he posted? (and not added afterwards)
in that case it is fair game. (even if i would prefere if the "banned thing list" would be something legally decided as it would make it clearer to everyone where to look up and what list to refere to to know if / what is allowed)
Is "winnie the pooh" banned too, or is he allowed? (i ask as i've already heard of him being banned)
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Proto-fascism predated Mussolini, some people place it in the late 1800s, but the "official" start was Mussolini, who formalized its description in his book from 1919, I think. He also suggested the use of the term "corporatism", since only Italians could understand the symbolism of the Roman fasces. "Everything for the State, everything within the State, and nothing against the State."
It's an ideology where there is a state-corporate "marriage", but with the state the dominant partner. So long as the industrialists do what the state wants done, industrialists retain nominal title to the factories, but if they balk, never flinch from confiscating the property and giving it to more compliant owners. But it was also more local -- this state supremacy also took the form of the hyper-regulatory state, where citizens are told both what they may not do and what they must do. And this was generally overseen by the businesses, as they saw their employees 6 days a week, and knew who the agitators and subversives were. Doesn't take too much reflection to see the parallels in the modern world, on any number of topics -- climate change, covid, surveillance, environmentalism, censorship, gun control, rent control, wokeness, etc.
Upshot is that fascism is inherently a big government ideology, which aligns closely with modern (American) leftism, and with global neoconservatism, and especially with the radical globalism of actors like the WEF. It does not have much in common with the limited government conservatism of Reagan or Thatcher.
If I get your description correctly socialism, communism and anarchism would be right ideologies.
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Proto-fascism predated Mussolini, some people place it in the late 1800s, but the "official" start was Mussolini, who formalized its description in his book from 1919, I think. He also suggested the use of the term "corporatism", since only Italians could understand the symbolism of the Roman fasces. "Everything for the State, everything within the State, and nothing against the State."
It's an ideology where there is a state-corporate "marriage", but with the state the dominant partner. So long as the industrialists do what the state wants done, industrialists retain nominal title to the factories, but if they balk, never flinch from confiscating the property and giving it to more compliant owners. But it was also more local -- this state supremacy also took the form of the hyper-regulatory state, where citizens are told both what they may not do and what they must do. And this was generally overseen by the businesses, as they saw their employees 6 days a week, and knew who the agitators and subversives were. Doesn't take too much reflection to see the parallels in the modern world, on any number of topics -- climate change, covid, surveillance, environmentalism, censorship, gun control, rent control, wokeness, etc.
Upshot is that fascism is inherently a big government ideology, which aligns closely with modern (American) leftism, and with global neoconservatism, and especially with the radical globalism of actors like the WEF. It does not have much in common with the limited government conservatism of Reagan or Thatcher.
If I get your description correctly socialism, communism and anarchism would be right ideologies.
why do we even bother with left and right seems superflous now days.
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why do we even bother with left and right seems superflous now days.
I am not sure what rock your living under! The world seems divided up into left and right like it was before to me.
Proto-fascism predated Mussolini, some people place it in the late 1800s, but the "official" start was Mussolini, who formalized its description in his book from 1919, I think. He also suggested the use of the term "corporatism", since only Italians could understand the symbolism of the Roman fasces. "Everything for the State, everything within the State, and nothing against the State."
It's an ideology where there is a state-corporate "marriage", but with the state the dominant partner. So long as the industrialists do what the state wants done, industrialists retain nominal title to the factories, but if they balk, never flinch from confiscating the property and giving it to more compliant owners. But it was also more local -- this state supremacy also took the form of the hyper-regulatory state, where citizens are told both what they may not do and what they must do. And this was generally overseen by the businesses, as they saw their employees 6 days a week, and knew who the agitators and subversives were. Doesn't take too much reflection to see the parallels in the modern world, on any number of topics -- climate change, covid, surveillance, environmentalism, censorship, gun control, rent control, wokeness, etc.
Upshot is that fascism is inherently a big government ideology, which aligns closely with modern (American) leftism, and with global neoconservatism, and especially with the radical globalism of actors like the WEF. It does not have much in common with the limited government conservatism of Reagan or Thatcher.
Socialism and Leftism isn't solely about government doing stuff.
Fascism has enough right-wing characteristics that that the 'leftist' stuff can be consider 'outweighed'.
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Leftism is ultimatly about cooperation and the dissolving of governments, nation, class and hierachies.
I don't say that they are a uniform group, but I would say they have a common theme song.
I really can't see leftist ideology here.
As per Wikipedia:
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultra-nationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
The limited government conservatives like Reagan or Thatcher wanted has the the goal of concentrating power to a few on the top, and destroy social / safety / health and environmental regulations that don't serve them.
It seems there is a common theme on the right side too.
So imho it makes sense distinguish the groups.
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Leftism is ultimatly about cooperation and the dissolving of governments, nation, class and hierachies.
The first word in that list is questionable...............
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Very lucky that I read this thread before giving these garbage slimeballs a single cent of my money.
I am finished with Dwarf Fortress for good, and it makes me very, very sad.
Hey Toady - you sold your soul to the devil. Good job.
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Is "winnie the pooh" banned too, or is he allowed? (i ask as i've already heard of him being banned)
Interesting. If they're banning Winnie the Pooh, it's a direct service for Xi and the CCP.
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If I get your description correctly socialism, communism and anarchism would be right ideologies.
Theoretical communism is anarchism, at least to the leftist, who use "anarchist" as Proudhon or Bakunin used the term. Anarchist means something a little different, depending on who you talk to. Communism as practiced (as opposed to "real" communism) at any scale above a tribe is always and everywhere massive state authoritarianism, aspiring to totalitarianism. Definitely American Left.
In theory, socialism is supposed to be an intermediate in the progressive withering away of the state into communism/anarchism. In practice, it does so through becoming an authoritarian and ultimately totalitarian mega-state, with no means or evidence of those holding that power ever releasing their grasp. Again, American Left.
European Left, where it still has at least some ties to liberty and opposition to ancien regime is a little different.
It's not particularly surprising that neoconservatism has so much in common with the American Left -- Strauss, it's "founder" was a die-hard communist trying to find a way to make the ideology palatable to anti-communist America.
No, Reagan and Thatcher conservatism was not about concentrating power at the top. They were both outspoken advocates of decentralization, and to a fair extent, managed to rein in at least some aspects of the state, the major exception being the military.
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Shouldn't this discussion be somewhere else? It's gone way beyond complaining about being booted off Discord.
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Shouldn't this discussion be somewhere else? It's gone way beyond complaining about being booted off Discord.
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Generally the politics forum is General Discussion and not DF General Discussion.
If I get your description correctly socialism, communism and anarchism would be right ideologies.
Theoretical communism is anarchism, at least to the leftist, who use "anarchist" as Proudhon or Bakunin used the term. Anarchist means something a little different, depending on who you talk to. Communism as practiced (as opposed to "real" communism) at any scale above a tribe is always and everywhere massive state authoritarianism, aspiring to totalitarianism. Definitely American Left.
In theory, socialism is supposed to be an intermediate in the progressive withering away of the state into communism/anarchism. In practice, it does so through becoming an authoritarian and ultimately totalitarian mega-state, with no means or evidence of those holding that power ever releasing their grasp. Again, American Left.
European Left, where it still has at least some ties to liberty and opposition to ancien regime is a little different.
It's not particularly surprising that neoconservatism has so much in common with the American Left -- Strauss, it's "founder" was a die-hard communist trying to find a way to make the ideology palatable to anti-communist America.
No, Reagan and Thatcher conservatism was not about concentrating power at the top. They were both outspoken advocates of decentralization, and to a fair extent, managed to rein in at least some aspects of the state, the major exception being the military.
A lot of this I find confused. You seem to be focusing on the exact details of what the groups believe in rather than the nature of what said groups advocate.
I advocate putting toes to the fire but I do not believe in burned toes. I thus believe that because I don't believe in burnt toes, I am not to be held to be in favour of burnt toes when I advocate toes to the fire.
The authoritarian and ultimately totalitarian mega-state
is the burnt toes here. There is no reason then to say that the American Left is any different from the European Left, aside from the fact that the former is less delusional than the other.
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why do we even bother with left and right seems superflous now days.
I am not sure what rock your living under! The world seems divided up into left and right like it was before to me.
actually not under rocks, that would be inappropriate in our socities, I live in a democratic country (in Europe) where whoever you elect (left or right) they will pursue the same agenda without any real difference between their actions. (oh the rhetoric changes, but the acts, are the same) Without any power as an elector to change whatever, the world represent itself as divided in left end right to give us the illusion of choice. but all and every politician is after only his personal agenda of power. Without any consideration of the wellbeing of future (or even current) generation.
Also if we take the demagogie at face value, left and right does not mean the same thing in europe and usa, that is why so many people disagree in the discussion.
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You seem to be focusing on the exact details of what the groups believe in rather than the nature of what said groups advocate.
I advocate putting toes to the fire but I do not believe in burned toes.
Right. That's what an ideology is, a body of ideas. I'm separating the ideology itself from its "unintended" consequences. In your simplified example, anyone who does not know that literally holding feet to the fire will result in burned toes is a moron, and anyone who just ignores the obvious consequence is a psychopath. Neither is a political ideology.
But there are more complicated causality issues, like supplying foreign aid. When people can get something for free, to that extent you destroy the producers within that society. For example, sending free food to Africa wipes out African farmers. Was the intent to create a permanent underclass in a society that can never feed itself ever again? Probably not, so I'll leave that out of the political ideology, and attribute it to "unintended" consequences, even if it is both foreseeable and has been the outcome every time its tried. "This time it will be different" and all that.
"Left" is an odd duck. In continental Europe, some still Left from the French 1800s to mean the liberals (lovers of liberty) like Bastiat. Left in Germany is a different thing, in that their division dates to the Weimar Republic. Look up the major parties on the internet. Pretty much all of them had "sozial" (obvious) or "arbeit" (work) or volk (~People's or Popular in this context) or "demokratische" (again, obvious) in their name, and even generally in their politics. Even those that named themselves "Konservativ-" (obvious) or "Freiheit-" (freedom) were championing recognizably socialist policies. You could have bombed the Reichstag and killed no more than a dozen non-socialists. Whether you were a unionist, a churchman, an industrialist, a militarist, a populist or pretty much any other politics, you were a socialist. The right/left split was over nationalism/internationalism. That's why the Nazis were considered right-wing -- they were national socialists.
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The frog is kind of funny sometimes but in basically 100% of conversations I've seen like this it eventually turns out the guy complaining about overzealous moderation was being way worse than he wants people to think.
The full scenario was I commented about my dwarves doing something silly and posted an angry pepe - actually fairly sure it was my first post in the DF discussion channel as I just went there to report a bug earlier - then some mod DM'd me a warning you can't post pepes in the server, I said I couldn't see anything in the rules about pepe, but he pointed it out under the heading "personal attacks and harassment" that I skimmed because, like, why would it be there lol. And so I found it is in fact against the rules, as they state because it's associated with hate groups. I told him what I thought of such a rule and that I wouldn't follow it and if that's a problem he should just ban me now. Is that me being way worse than I wanted people to think?
Badness aside, you literally told him to ban you, so why are you here crying about it.
Her, but yes. (It was me. I swung the hammer)
We agree that it was explicitly stated in the rules "before" he posted? (and not added afterwards)
in that case it is fair game. (even if i would prefere if the "banned thing list" would be something legally decided as it would make it clearer to everyone where to look up and what list to refere to to know if / what is allowed)
Is "winnie the pooh" banned too, or is he allowed? (i ask as i've already heard of him being banned)
It's been explicitly stated in the rules for a long time now, yes.
Also nobody is banned without warning unless they're steam scammers.
Which is funny, because I one had a guyact very huffy when I asked him to stop some behavior that wa going against the spirit of the rules, even if that very specific situation wasn't written out, and they were going on and on about "Where is it written in the rules that I can't do this thing? I have no possible way of knowing that I can't do this thing" despite me telling them right there that they can't do this thing.
At the end of the day, the ban on Pepe the frog is just one of the ways that we use to make sure that the server remains free of bigots and chuds and other similar nasties, and I have seen many people comment on how nice it is that they feel safe to be there, which tells me that it's working.