| weapon | mean | stdev | confidence_level | margin_of_error | lower_bound | upper_bound |
|---------------------|-------|-------|------------------|-----------------|-------------|-------------|
| platinum war hammer | 16.80 | 9.81 | 0.95 | 0.86 | 15.94 | 17.66 |
| steel war hammer | 17.19 | 9.53 | 0.95 | 0.84 | 16.35 | 18.02 |
| copper war hammer | 18.14 | 10.18 | 0.95 | 0.89 | 17.25 | 19.03 |
| lead war hammer | 18.37 | 9.90 | 0.95 | 0.87 | 17.50 | 19.24 |
| silver war hammer | 18.39 | 9.53 | 0.95 | 0.84 | 17.55 | 19.22 || weapon | mean | stdev | confidence_level | margin_of_error | lower_bound | upper_bound |
|---------------------|-------|-------|------------------|-----------------|-------------|-------------|
| steel war hammer | 12.66 | 7.64 | 0.95 | 1.50 | 11.16 | 14.16 |
| platinum war hammer | 13.13 | 8.16 | 0.95 | 1.61 | 11.52 | 14.74 |
| lead war hammer | 13.76 | 7.43 | 0.95 | 1.46 | 12.30 | 15.22 |
| copper war hammer | 14.58 | 8.04 | 0.95 | 1.58 | 13.00 | 16.16 |
| silver war hammer | 15.53 | 7.18 | 0.95 | 1.41 | 14.12 | 16.94 |
| weapon | mean | stdev | confidence_level | margin_of_error | lower_bound | upper_bound |
|---------------------|-------|-------|------------------|-----------------|-------------|-------------|
| silver war hammer | 13.97 | 7.75 | 0.95 | 1.39 | 12.58 | 15.35 |
| platinum war hammer | 14.76 | 8.35 | 0.95 | 1.49 | 13.26 | 16.25 |
| copper war hammer | 15.07 | 8.49 | 0.95 | 1.52 | 13.55 | 16.59 |
| lead war hammer | 15.13 | 8.11 | 0.95 | 1.45 | 13.67 | 16.58 |
| steel war hammer | 16.07 | 7.78 | 0.95 | 1.39 | 14.67 | 17.46 |
| weapon | mean | stdev | confidence_level | margin_of_error | lower_bound | upper_bound |
|---------------------|-------|-------|------------------|-----------------|-------------|-------------|
| steel war hammer | 84.52 | 45.58 | 0.95 | 8.93 | 75.59 | 93.45 |
| silver war hammer | 91.08 | 48.84 | 0.95 | 9.57 | 81.51 | 100.65 |
| platinum war hammer | 92.22 | 51.91 | 0.95 | 10.17 | 82.05 | 102.39 |
| lead war hammer | 93.33 | 44.34 | 0.95 | 8.69 | 84.64 | 102.02 |
| copper war hammer | 97.26 | 42.78 | 0.95 | 8.38 | 88.88 | 105.64 |
| Weapon | mean | stdev | 95% CI |
|----------|------|-------|-------------|
| Steel | 1.05 | 0.95 | [0.63,1.47] |
| Lead | 1.25 | 1.08 | [0.78,1.72] |
| Silver | 1.37 | 1.26 | [0.82,1.92] |
| Copper | 1.4 | 1.35 | [0.81,1.99] |
| Platinum | 1.56 | 1.27 | [1.00,2.12] |
Thanks Panando!
I found it a little surprising that copper did as well as it did.
Honestly, bothering to test adamantine again for some hard numbers, likely wouldn't be a bad idea either. You know, just to verify theres at least one metal you shouldn't want to forge your warhammers out of.
| weapon | mean | stdev | confidence_level | margin_of_error | lower_bound | upper_bound |
|--------------------------|-------|-------|------------------|-----------------|-------------|-------------|
| silver war hammer | 14.07 | 8.57 | 0.95 | 1.72 | 12.36 | 15.79 |
| shining metal war hammer | 16.29 | 8.17 | 0.95 | 1.64 | 14.66 | 17.93 |
| wagon wooden war hammer | 21.92 | 9.57 | 0.95 | 1.91 | 20.00 | 23.83 |
| adamantine war hammer | 38.94 | 14.90 | 0.95 | 2.98 | 35.96 | 41.92 |
Another excellent thread. It's funny how many truisms over the years that have been build around DF are dubious at best, if not flat out wrong.
Another excellent thread. It's funny how many truisms over the years that have been build around DF are dubious at best, if not flat out wrong.
There was a significant boost to larger creatures' ability to absorb blunt force relatively early on in 4X.XX. I don't remember which specific update that was, but it was in the notes somewhere.Spoiler: Slightly off topic: (click to show/hide)
On topic:
Looking at the results of the quick tests, there seem to be a drop in warhammer effectiveness against bigger targets. Would it be possible to test:
1) Whether that is true or just a result of a small sample size
2) If it is true, how does the effectiveness change in relation to target's size. Idealy target size should range from smaller than a dwarf (say a kobold) to way larger (forgotten beast/titan).
3) If target size affect warhammer effectiveness, does it also affect other weapons' effectiveness?
Thanks Panando!Could a dwarf even pick up one made of slade? I'm pretty sure short of modding that this would have to be an artifact.
I found it a little surprising that copper did as well as it did.
Divine metal could also be tested, but it probably comes out being the same as any other metal.
Honestly, bothering to test adamantine again for some hard numbers, likely wouldn't be a bad idea either. You know, just to verify theres at least one metal you shouldn't want to forge your warhammers out of.
Generally popular wisdom is broadly correct. Like while you get some people who will insist that silver is the best material for war hammers, you also get the prevailing viewpoint that material doesn't really matter."Best" is pretty situational. Except in the most terrifying of biomes you are rarely showing up immediately facing an existential threat. So "best" may just mean you have nothing but silver. Generally even the resource-sparse embarks have stuff like tetrahedrite lying around.
There's only one very wrong truism I've uncovered: and that is the best weapon vs undead. Masterwork steel edged weapons (pick, battle axe and short sword - not the spear) strike down and mangle undead dramatically faster than blunt weapons, and although they produce more parts that get renaimated, those parts are trivial to strike down (basically if the limb could be slashed off, it can also be mangled in one hit, since the requirement for both is basically "do catastrophic damage to every layer"). Striking down a zombie in 5 hits, then striking down the 3 appendages which got cut off in 1 hit per piece, is much faster than taking 30 hits with a war hammer to mangle the zombie in one piece. So blunt weapons theorycraft well vs undead, but their performance is just so abysmal that the theorycrafting doesn't stand up to testing.
Without going to any more effort, what is your opinion on bronze? I usually use it for (at least mediocre) early game furniture, weapons, and mostly picks and axes, reserving the dross metals for blunt force weapons like hammers (which appears to have marginal advantages to using more valuable metals in as I suspected).
Bronze is basically iron for most intents and purposes. It's perfectly effective for armor against goblin/human/elf weapons just as iron is, steel is slightly better but it's way more important to at least have iron/bronze armor and steel is just a slight upgrade except in the rare cases of steel weapons (some cavern dwellers, enemy dwarves). In contrast, just like iron, bronze is severely sub-optimal for any edged weapons precisely because edged weapons have trouble cutting through same material armor. It is highly optimal to make edged weapons out of steel, and basically to only use edged weapons made of steel since they severely outperform blunt weapons against nearly everything unless you have modded steel clad enemies.Good point and I do generally try to sell off the early bronze weapons (especially the seriously sub-optimal bronze edged weapons). The absolute worst is when your starting military squads get attached to crappy weapons. I try just not to have them on the map, or at the very least, not in military stockpiles. About the only thing worse is if you aren't paying attention and they get attached to one of those miserable wooden training swords the elves always bring.
Bronze is basically iron for most intents and purposes. It's perfectly effective for armor against goblin/human/elf weapons just as iron is, steel is slightly better but it's way more important to at least have iron/bronze armor and steel is just a slight upgrade except in the rare cases of steel weapons (some cavern dwellers, enemy dwarves). In contrast, just like iron, bronze is severely sub-optimal for any edged weapons precisely because edged weapons have trouble cutting through same material armor. It is highly optimal to make edged weapons out of steel, and basically to only use edged weapons made of steel since they severely outperform blunt weapons against nearly everything unless you have modded steel clad enemies.Good point and I do generally try to sell off the early bronze weapons (especially the seriously sub-optimal bronze edged weapons). The absolute worst is when your starting military squads get attached to crappy weapons. I try just not to have them on the map, or at the very least, not in military stockpiles. About the only thing worse is if you aren't paying attention and they get attached to one of those miserable wooden training swords the elves always bring.
So considering the platinum is like twice the weight for little to no gain I'm going to consider it a bad choice and remove it from my work orders (probably not in DFHack just my own, I may suggest it to Myk, but I'll leave it up to him how he wants to handle it).I rarely use platinum for weapons because I think it is one of the best (and rarest) metals for increasing room value, so when I become the Mountainhomes, stuff made of platinum is how I build royal-quality rooms. That and aluminum.
aluminum is so lightweight, it makes for great cages and other things dwarves will frequently haulSo considering the platinum is like twice the weight for little to no gain I'm going to consider it a bad choice and remove it from my work orders (probably not in DFHack just my own, I may suggest it to Myk, but I'll leave it up to him how he wants to handle it).I rarely use platinum for weapons because I think it is one of the best (and rarest) metals for increasing room value, so when I become the Mountainhomes, stuff made of platinum is how I build royal-quality rooms. That and aluminum.
I make exceptions for when there are specific Legendary dwarves who could make great use of a masterwork-quality weapon.
Bronze is basically iron for most intents and purposes. It's perfectly effective for armor against goblin/human/elf weapons just as iron is, steel is slightly better but it's way more important to at least have iron/bronze armor and steel is just a slight upgrade except in the rare cases of steel weapons (some cavern dwellers, enemy dwarves). In contrast, just like iron, bronze is severely sub-optimal for any edged weapons precisely because edged weapons have trouble cutting through same material armor. It is highly optimal to make edged weapons out of steel, and basically to only use edged weapons made of steel since they severely outperform blunt weapons against nearly everything unless you have modded steel clad enemies.Good point and I do generally try to sell off the early bronze weapons (especially the seriously sub-optimal bronze edged weapons). The absolute worst is when your starting military squads get attached to crappy weapons. I try just not to have them on the map, or at the very least, not in military stockpiles. About the only thing worse is if you aren't paying attention and they get attached to one of those miserable wooden training swords the elves always bring.
I used to let that bug the shit out of me too, but then life is full of disappointment, why should the dwarves be exempt. They can suck it up and deal with it when I take their crappy stuff away to give them masterwork steel. I haven't had a tantrum spiral from it or really anything other than bugs in many versions so as long as you go to reasonable lengths to keep order you should be good(other than what amounted to a civil war that I gave up trying to figure out WTF happened)
So considering the platinum is like twice the weight for little to no gain I'm going to consider it a bad choice and remove it from my work orders (probably not in DFHack just my own, I may suggest it to Myk, but I'll leave it up to him how he wants to handle it). The silver all things considered is still not an awful choice I guess. We're talking war hammers, maces and crossbows only of course. What do all y'all think? I mean you generally have steel or you don't have steel so it isn't like there's a need to conserve it usually. Maybe I will drop the silver down below steel, which the numbers above support (right now the upgrade path goes copper>bronze>bismuth bronze>iron>steel>silver>platinum and the work orders are chained to choose based on what you have to work with) So it'd still make sense to use silver if you don't have steel.
Worth testing. I just did a quick test (96 samples) with various materials, peak physical highly skilled dwarves:Code: [Select]| weapon | mean | stdev | confidence_level | margin_of_error | lower_bound | upper_bound |
|--------------------------|-------|-------|------------------|-----------------|-------------|-------------|
| silver war hammer | 14.07 | 8.57 | 0.95 | 1.72 | 12.36 | 15.79 |
| shining metal war hammer | 16.29 | 8.17 | 0.95 | 1.64 | 14.66 | 17.93 |
| wagon wooden war hammer | 21.92 | 9.57 | 0.95 | 1.91 | 20.00 | 23.83 |
| adamantine war hammer | 38.94 | 14.90 | 0.95 | 2.98 | 35.96 | 41.92 |
Relevant: I just encountered some people the other day who have yet to see accurate data pertaining to a silver vs. iron comparison, and so their default assumption in the absence of any evidence the specifically proves otherwise, is that silver is a categorically superior material for blunt weapons, obviously.
Steel is still the safest choice vs normal enemies I guess?The differences between platinum, steel and silver are so tiny that it really doesn't matter. As a rule-of-thumb, just make all your weapons from steel if you can and you're good to go.