(http://makeitgreataga.in/tsen/dfforum/all-dogs-go-somewhere.jpg)You've responded loud and clear. Welcome aboard pupper.
INA dog named Kat woof. Your human has an odd naming sense. Welcome to the pack.Spoiler: Doggie! (click to show/hide)
IN!You smell weird. What does your owner eat?Spoiler: D.O.G. - Dynamic_Omni-functional_Gadget (click to show/hide)
Well I got the ideal avatar to disguise my true cat identity.Come on in out of the dark, and be welcome.
In
Sure:Nice to see some representation from our colder climate cousins.
(https://i.imgur.com/BzCkFFG.jpg) (https://i.natgeofe.com/n/548467d8-c5f1-4551-9f58-6817a8d2c45e/NationalGeographic_2572187_square.jpg?w=136&h=136)
Been forever!That's some long fur you have on your face. sniffs with his stuffy nose. You smell dog enough though, so welcome. Floppy ears too.Spoiler: There's surely at least some canine in my ancestry... (click to show/hide)
In, please 8)
In, but only becauseDogs don't judge, welcome you three? Right, that's enough to go hunting, time to sniff out the Strays! Together we shall bring down the cats and show our owners who the best boys and girls are!Spoiler: someone has to reference the greatest dog in the underworld (click to show/hide)
So what's everyone's playstyle?Haven't really developed one yet, though it's, for the most part, simply getting through the first few days and then using all of the knowledge accumulated thus far to scum-hunt (I'm not proficient at getting into people's craniums and pulling on their nerve fibers on the very first day, unlike some of you).
So what's everyone's playstyle?
Don't really know for me
Maybe do stupid stuff and be lucky?
You do have an unfortunate name for this game, but no dog names itself, and if your owner called you cat, well, that's on your owner more than you. Any idea why/how doing 'stupid' stuff might help your side? I can see how being lucky might.
I mainly rely on night action analysis because I can't pick up scumtells.So what's everyone's playstyle?
I've been gone so long, not even sure if I have one anymore. Great to be back though, excitement through the woof. Umm, I do think a lot, but that's most of us, right?
What's your playstyle, Crys?
I mainly rely on night action analysis because I can't pick up scumtells.
I consider night action analysis to include nightkills so what I'm saying is that I rely on what information is gained through the night phase whether or not I do anything in the night phaseI mainly rely on night action analysis because I can't pick up scumtells.
It's been a while since I played.
Night action analysis, does that mean you're saying you're a role that does stuff at night, not one of the vanilla dogs, or what else do you mean?
I consider night action analysis to include nightkills so what I'm saying is that I rely on what information is gained through the night phase whether or not I do anything in the night phase
My playstyle is WINNING.The irony is that you might be the only one among us who does have a clearly developed playstyle, and it involves more than "WINNING".
Totally believe you that you're here to win, but win slow? And already voting on a lynch?Uh spindog wasn't voting yet, but what is wrong with voting early? It doesn't end the day unless three more dogs vote the same and hammer. Sniffs you suspiciously.
I propose we lynch either Imp or TCk to test whether the images actually mattered.
The value of daytime discussion is to see who the dead player thought was scum the day before they diedI consider night action analysis to include nightkills so what I'm saying is that I rely on what information is gained through the night phase whether or not I do anything in the night phase
Gotcha. Based on what you've said, I am curious what value do you see daytime discussions as having.
It's really interesting to me because you opened our play with your first question, and it's a decent one, in my opinion. But it makes me wonder why you asked it. What are you willing to tell us about that, and the value of daytime discussions in your eyes?
or night they diedThe value of daytime discussion is to see who the dead player thought was scum the day before they diedI consider night action analysis to include nightkills so what I'm saying is that I rely on what information is gained through the night phase whether or not I do anything in the night phase
Gotcha. Based on what you've said, I am curious what value do you see daytime discussions as having.
It's really interesting to me because you opened our play with your first question, and it's a decent one, in my opinion. But it makes me wonder why you asked it. What are you willing to tell us about that, and the value of daytime discussions in your eyes?
Uh spindog wasn't voting yet, but what is wrong with voting early? It doesn't end the day unless three more dogs vote the same and hammer. Sniffs you suspiciously.
Quick mechanical observation: Imp joined the discord relatively recently, despite being active prior to that at the start of the day. This means that Tric overlooked requiring their presence there, which would've been rather difficult to do if Imp was assigned a role with a secret chat of some sort. We most likely only have 2 hidden chats based on the fact that Tric publicly requested that Meph create "Dog Heaven" (deadchat) and "Catlandia" (mafiachat!), thus Imp is not scum!!
In a subtle way, it sets up the idea that 'hey, maybe both these less-doggy image folks are both cats'. However, for most humans, and perhaps especially those less trained in logic, that helps set up the bias that if one is found to be a dog, that can feel like 'reason to believe the other is also a dog'.
Just a general question: how much scum is present in a 7 player game? I know that in a 9 player game there is usually 2 scum in play, but what about with less people?
how much scum is present in a 7 player game?
This game is comprised of a Doctor, A Cop, a Godfather, and a Henchmen. And 3 Vanilla dogs. Post your In with a cute dog image, and sniff out the Strays.
Yes, this is a silly vanilla game.
I also wanna point out that you seem like a really experienced player, even after all these years, for perceiving the above as potential manipulation, Imp!
I expect we have 2 scum.
Anyways, the cop should probably roleclaim on the first day since we know that there's a doctor in this game.
Pros: The Cop would at least get one investigation before they dieAnyways, the cop should probably roleclaim on the first day since we know that there's a doctor in this game.
What are the pros/cons of doing this? Open question, to Crys, but to all as well.
Anyways, the cop should probably roleclaim on the first day since we know that there's a doctor in this game.
What are the pros/cons of doing this? Open question, to Crys, but to all as well.
What are the pros/cons of doing this?Pros: A strategy that involves the doctor healing the cop every night until the former is killed by pure chance may be effective.
@The Canadian kitten: What are your thoughts so far about participation levels for everyone? And when do you plan to get some of that 'stupid stuff' going?very basic cuz too hungry to think too much
@Crystalizedmire: If you were cop this game, at this point, who would you investigate and why?Maximum Spin because they seem to be the hardest to read according to experienced players.
Question to Imp: Why, do you think, would Crystal specifically want the cop to role-claim so early on?
I feel like I've already said a fair amount, and already plan to discuss specifically that before day's end, even if nobody else answers me.
@Quarque: I missed you answering Crystalizedmire's opening question - is that part of your playstyle, or what are you willing to tell us about it?That was the question about playing style? I haven't developed one really, but tend to trust gut feelings and psychological factors more than logic.
I played 2 games with a lurker who turned out to be town all along.
My playstyle is WINNING.
Anyways, the cop should probably roleclaim on the first day since we know that there's a doctor in this game.
@TricMagic: Silly me needs a rules clarification, please. Does this game have a hammer? If so, is it at 4 votes with the 7 of us currently alive? Reading general Mafia rules makes me think not all games have hammers.No hammers this game.
Just for the record, I'm not the Dog in the Know.
TricMagic, definitely.Just for the record, I'm not the Dog in the Know.
Maximum, out of everyone here, who do you see as most likely town, besides yourself, that is?
@Crystal: Hey, Max's done a bit more than lurk. What's your evaluation of Max's play so far, Have you seen any scumhunting or other attempts to assist in or prepare for a town win yet? If so, can you help me see it too?Maximum Spin seems to be Maximum Spin but less talkative and he has a mafia game to set up so I think it is reasonable that he's mostly joking. Although, in a previous game his scum partner did make a (false) theory that the scum team consists of a veteran and a newbie so it wouldn't be unlikely that Maximum Spin would set up the idea that the scum team isn't random.
And what's your thought on a D1 no-lynch, do you think that could possibly be helpful for either side?
My point is that lurking doesn't automatically mean scum though it probably helps scum more.I played 2 games with a lurker who turned out to be town all along.
Is this, by any chance, about Snow? If so, I think that was more of an anomaly than a legitimate playstyle choice. In fact, Snow was deliberately trying to get lynched that one time; that's the opposite of Max's (alleged) strategy!!My playstyle is WINNING.
Ehhh, I don't feel like talking much, it's the weekend and I'm sleepy.
I guess at this point it's technically optimal to vote out a1s, but we have a lot of time left to make that decision. A couple players are definitely giving me bad vibes. Anyone else care to confirm that you're absolutely not In the Know?
Day 1 has begun. It will end in 120 Hours.
When you feel like talking, would you please explain how anyone answering your question of "Anyone else care to confirm that you're absolutely not In the Know?" helps your team?Pretty simple. Someone knows for sure that another player is town. That means both that that player is cleared, and that that player can clear another. However, that player isn't allowed to say so. But if only one player isn't willing to categorically deny it, then that player's opinions about other players are suddenly much more interesting. And if only, let's say, two or three players aren't willing to categorically deny it, then we should be suspicious of those players since mafia would reasonably want to disrupt the process of identification. Town have no reason not to just deny it. And, after all, since the Dog in the No [sic] has no special powers, once the information is out there, that player isn't any more valuable a kill target than anyone else, so it doesn't benefit the mafia any.
My point is that lurking doesn't automatically mean scum though it probably helps scum more.
Pretty simple. Someone knows for sure that another player is town. That means both that that player is cleared, and that that player can clear another. However, that player isn't allowed to say so. But if only one player isn't willing to categorically deny it, then that player's opinions about other players are suddenly much more interesting. And if only, let's say, two or three players aren't willing to categorically deny it, then we should be suspicious of those players since mafia would reasonably want to disrupt the process of identification. Town have no reason not to just deny it. And, after all, since the Dog in the No [sic] has no special powers, once the information is out there, that player isn't any more valuable a kill target than anyone else, so it doesn't benefit the mafia any.
Such an individual might, while choosing not to deny being such, give, say, a list of all the (five) players that player doesn't feel confident about. For example.
Just for the record, I'm not the Dog in the Know. In fact, I'm just a boring regular dog, unfortunately.
For whoever is: just don't specifically say that you aren't.
I'm not so sure now that I realize the cop isn't guaranteed to have a correct investigation report.My point is that lurking doesn't automatically mean scum though it probably helps scum more.
Crystal: Well, you're definitely one of the least-lurky of us, you were first post even!
Given what you've told us about your ability, or inability, to pick up scum tells, how do you want us to evaluate your stance on the players you've spoken up in evaluation of?
"Anyways, the cop should probably roleclaim on the first day since we know that there's a doctor in this game."
"Pros: The Cop would at least get one investigation before they die"
So, the cop can investigate. There's 6 people the cop could investigate, and only 1 would give a definite read, the henchmen[sic, cause that's plural] All the other 5 would read as town, including the one godfather mafia.
How valuable do you believe the cop's role is in this game, with the defined rules?
I'm not so sure now that I realize the cop isn't guaranteed to have a correct investigation report.
Everything about your reasoning is fundamentally screwed up. We're talking about the possibility of having two confirmed town players. Except to the extent that confirmed town players are always a target, the Dog in the Know is simply not "a role to go for" to the mafia, because it has no particular features other than being confirmed town. Once the actual information of the player that player is in the know about is out, there's no mechanical difference between the Dog in the Know and anyone else. So your whole thesis is wrong and frankly rather scummy.
Simply put, having two confirmed town forces the mafia to let us go into day 2 with at least one confirmed town, which is a strong benefit; and the doctor can protect one, forcing at least a 50/50 shot of having two confirmed town on day 2. That's a big deal given the existence of only two mafia. To make matters "worse"... by your own acknowledgement, the cop is of limited value in this setup as a cop. On the other hand, the cop is of greater value as a definite town role. In the event that the cop is neither the Dog in the Know nor the target of that knowledge, that would mean three confirmed town if the cop claims. Four if the doctor is also neither of them - so best case scenario the mafia is narrowed down to two out of three. Now, this obviously forces the mafia to counterclaim, but even then, that can only involve up to two players, which means, in many of the possible arrangements, the game is still already solved.
For all intents and purposes, the only role that's a significant target to the mafia in and of itself is the doctor. The cop is fairly weak under the circumstances, having to hit the henchman round 1 to have any real impact. Certainly, if either the Dog in the Know or his knowledge-target is also the doctor, I would recommend keeping the doctor part secret and quietly protecting the other of the two. If both of those players are vanilla town, then a full claim will confine the mafia nearly completely. It's also possible that they are exactly the doctor and cop, which would be the least useful of the outcomes for town, because mafia can simply choose not to counter-claim, and are then only restricted to being 2/5... but that's still pretty good compared to 2/7. It also obviously follows that a doctor or cop who isn't the Dog in the Know should also want the Dog in the Know to be revealed: it guarantees that the actual power role will live longer.
Or basically, in short, another way to think about it is: the mafia will always know they're killing a town player at night. The information that a specific player is town, then, doesn't benefit them in any way. The only value that the Dog in the Know role has over others is exactly that information, so revealing it is better for town.
How about you go back through the thread, and answer the questions that have already been asked of you that you have not so far answered?I don't answer questions unless I feel like it. It's one of my rules.
I don't answer questions unless I feel like it. It's one of my rules.
1. I'm not in favour anymore since the results may not be reliable and because it may be better in the long run for the cop to claim on the second day so that the doctor can protect themselves on the first day
Do you still recommend the cop reveal?
What you were saying before, "Regarding Nolynching: Nolynching on the first day brings us to MeLo on the second day so unless we're sure that we know who the scum is on the second day we would have to nolynch again. This could backfire on us if Tricmagic doesn't allow us to nolynch twice in a row or the scum nokills leading to the endless loop of both party doing nothing." I don't understand, are you recommending we no-lynch today, or what is your recommendation otherwise?
And I missed your answering my other question, which I tried to helpfully bold for you before, and try again now:
Given what you've told us about your ability, or inability, to pick up scum tells, how do you want us to evaluate your stance on the players you've spoken up in evaluation of?
the mafia will always know they're killing a town player at night. The information that a specific player is town, then, doesn't benefit them in any way. The only value that the Dog in the Know role has over others is exactly that information, so revealing it is better for town.
I will kick off the bidding at 1 prestige.
Crystalizedmire So, trying to get town power roles to reveal is a typical scum tell. Discussed in many places, one the OP "Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells" in this thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.0, "Rolefishing: Trying to find powerroles (cop and doc in vanilla Mafia), often via questioning." Also moving to defend Maximum Spin, and also a1s. While clearly there can't be 3 scum in this game, presuming Cry and Max are scum, a1s is currently the townie least dangerous to scum, since a1s hasn't even spoken yet.First of all: I was aware of what a godfather is. I only remembered one of the variants where the godfather performs the mafia kill and forgot about the fact that godfathers read as innocent to cops.
Additionally, Cry suggested that the cop should inspect Max (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=182139.msg8509512#msg8509512). If Max is godfather on a Cry/Max scum team, this is the most useful for scum possible inspection to have happen, as it may cause town to believe that the godfather is town for sure. Now, this presumes that Cry/Max is the scum team; Cry may be a townie and a new mafia player entirely, with just 2 finished Bay 12 forums Mafia games ever, and possibly genuinely didn't know or research any assumption they may have had about how cops and godfather roles work. Failing that... a Cry/Max team could have Max, supposedly a very strong player, advising and guiding Cry. I can't be sure of this, but what I see looks consistent so far that this is possible and may actually be likely.
3. Only consider my evaluations once I'm dead or when I'm really certain that one player is not scum
I was just sure that a1s is town.Unless you deny it, I'm going to take this accordingly.
I love how much you're talking, Max the said was sleepy and don't wanna talk one!
I'll think over what you said soon.
However, you really do appear willing and able to talk when it pleases you.
How about you go back through the thread, and answer the questions that have already been asked of you that you have not so far answered?
Crystalizedmire So, trying to get town power roles to reveal is a typical scum tell. Discussed in many places, one the OP "Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells" in this thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.0, "Rolefishing: Trying to find powerroles (cop and doc in vanilla Mafia), often via questioning." Also moving to defend Maximum Spin, and also a1s.
I am of the opinion that we should lynch a1s, which bears no explanation, though I am less sure of my initial judgement with every post I read.I'm not voting a1s until Cryre responds to what I said, or someone else states that it's wrong.
As much as I still don't consider you scum, completely ignoring Spin's reasoning and accusing him for actively participating in the game we're playing is the least town thing EVER!
completely ignoring Spin's reasoning and accusing him for actively participating in the game
Additionally, Crystal defended neither Max nor a1s, besides that statement about lurking not necessarily equaling mafia behavior.
Maximum and a1sdog3god's behaviour doesn't seem suspicious to me
Maximum Spin seems to be Maximum Spin but less talkative and he has a mafia game to set up so I think it is reasonable that he's mostly joking
I was just sure that a1s is town.
What's most concerning is that, while we're here waging canine warfare, TCk only posted 4 times and Quarque thrice; both of those numbers are, of course, infinitely better than 0. I am of the opinion that we should lynch a1s, which bears no explanation, though I am less sure of my initial judgement with every post I read.
And day 1 is the least useful and interesting day for that person to be revealed; to me that's only town-useful in case we wanna have the doctor considering if they wanna protect that knowing role, and that's seriously marginalized in every case I can think of playing out.
[snip]
Folks, is there error you see in my reasoning?
By the way,Yes, I'm sure that a1s is not scum3. Only consider my evaluations once I'm dead or when I'm really certain that one player is not scumI was just sure that a1s is town.Unless you deny it, I'm going to take this accordingly.
Ok so this part of your reasoning I couldn't follow. Why is it not more than marginally useful for the doctor to know what dog they should protect?
God, what an incredibly stupid argument.
I'm really just going to respond to two points right now.
1) Yes, I've always, since the beginning of my play here, refused to answer questions based on my own personal whims. I even got lynched for it a couple times! But eventually everyone was forced to accept it and, indeed, people have come to regard me as a strong player... and over time, the obsession with asking questions has faded away as players came to realize that it doesn't really work. You have to accept that the world has moved on from that playstyle, and rightly so.
2) I said I didn't feel like talking much at one time, and then, at a later time, was more in the mood to talk and explain. Once I have declared one mental state, am I obligated to stay in it forever? Time passed, things change.
Incessant harping on weird made-up "scumtells" without any regard to the player's normal behavior or actual motives is something I consider a major scumtell for competent players. Especially when it also involves treating jokes as "slips". It puts me in the mind of, say, notquitethere in webadict's Supernatural, trying hard to find a reason to get one particular other player out. So I guess my vote has found its home for the day.
Going to say, flying all over my head due to self dumassery butDenying it means you say you aren't the dog in the know. The mafia can do this, but... then the only one who wouldn't deny it would be the actual dog in the know, so we have at least two confirmed town (the dog, and the one the dog says is town). Confirmed town can be incredibly strong. Of course, there's a small chance that the mafia could fakeclaim it and then the real dog in the know doesn't say anything... but since the real dog is town, this would just be moronic. It's willfully kneecapping your own team.
Really stupid question: what's stopping the Mafia from denying it as well for the dog in the know? Or at least any way for mafia to somehow subvert this?
Cop reveal d1 dumb I consider since that paints a target on the cop back, and dogtor have to choose between either protect themselves or protect the cop because if cop role claims, then mafia would kill someone else if they think the dogtor will protect the cop.Ehhhh, in this particular game, there's only exactly one player, the henchman, who the cop can actually catch. This means that the value of the cop is actually limited. If I were mafia, and a cop claimed d1, I'd be more interested in thinking about who that player will actually investigate before deciding whether he's worth killing right away.
Mostly because of the meta around role reveals. It's very useful for the mafia to know specifics about town, but that doesn't necessarily confirm who they are striking that night. That predictive dance is complex and can have other factors.First of all, it won't because being the Dog in the Know isn't a priority target for the mafia in any way. From the mafia's position, the Dog in the Know is barely different from any other townie.
Like, if cop does decide to reveal then does mafia night target the cop, or presume that doctor protects the cop, so the mafia has 4 unprotected targets to kill if they are right about the presumption?
The same thing can happen with our Know.
The mafia can also attempt to appear to be the Know, since they also know for their own reasons, and they could have one of the mafia reveal they know one of the town, but not others.I am honestly fairly confident that the real Dog in the Know didn't receive any more information about what that means than Tric told us in the thread, because A) this is supposed to be an open setup anyway, and B) you just don't know Tric like I do. The Dog in the Know was a mistake to begin with, so it's crazy to assume there are special rules. However, regardless, what the real Dog in the Know can and cannot do is irrelevant if the rest of town agrees to use their own freedom of action to narrow it down. I guarantee you that Tric is not obligating the real Dog in the Know to say something specific in order to deny being so, just not affirm being so.
If a mafia claims cop or doctor role, the real cop or doctor can choose to role reveal, and then we know to kill one of the two then the other if needed.
If a mafia claims to be the Know, we all were told the real Know can't reveal it, but the real Know also surely got a private message from Tric about it, with contents that the rest of us may not fully know. That one dog knows what they cannot say, exactly, and the mafia can only guess, and the rest of us can only guess. But the mafia could attempt to use individual town decisions to influence, and their 'fake know' could actually be doing stuff that only Tric and the real Know can recognize as not even following the rules that the real Know has to follow. Thus the fake mafia know might even claim a bit more boldly than the real Know can, because the real Know has rules that forbid exactly what the fake know is doing, since the fake know only knows what we were publicly told.
So, experienced townie. Explain to us how with your posts you are and have been scumhunting and progressing town goals, instead of wasting time. You know, doing town's job.I am not obligated to explain anything to you. In the event that you're actually town, your fixation is completely nonproductive.
Given how discussion has started centering around, do you think I should just reroll everything and restart the game? Thought it would work out, but apparently not. Mafia motivation is low. Granted, given a1s hasn't even posted..
Or I could modkill Crys for letting it be so blatant. Cause that's multiple people who have fingered them.Sighs in twitchy fingers. Sorry for the double post.
Probably should have rerolled in the first place.
Note of Game Restart. Please post IN in discord to make sure everyone is actually in there too?
Link is https://discord.gg/fapFXJ6QQ (https://discord.gg/fapFXJ6QQ)
well I was scum for the third time out of three games played lolGreat, I was right.
Competing with Fallacy for title of eternal scum
Quarque appears to be the next Fallacy soooooWatches Cry, so glad that one ined again not pushing hard yet, but clearly, eagerly hoping to see more when that one's ready.
Quarque
Too easy. You're wrong this time. I'm a dogly dog now. How about you?Still a good dog.
Qua, what about some scum hunting while you figure out what to do? That earned you some attention last game, the lack.Right. Are you scum? Imp
Qua, what about some scum hunting while you figure out what to do? That earned you some attention last game, the lack.Right. Are you scum? Imp
... I forgot someone. TCk! Wow. How can you be somewhat forgettable?
What might we expect from you?Let's talk about you first. How do I know you're not scum? I haven't seen scum Imp play, what does scum Imp look like?
What might we expect from you?Let's talk about you first. How do I know you're not scum? I haven't seen scum Imp play, what does scum Imp look like?
Alright, you two. The people you guys replaced were about 5 seconds from being lynched. My decision on that has yet to change.
4maskwolf and Imp:
What are your initial thoughts from Makeinu's flip as scum?
What are your reads on everybody thus far?
Who do you find most suspicious right now? Why?
a1s, how do you usually respond to pressure?With barks and growling.
All right, I'm town again.
I'm also the doctor, and due to another GM error I know all the town players, so mafia had better be sure to kill me first. No slacking off!
That means you, sofanthiel.
Why thou art vaguely poet-like?All right, I'm town again.
I'm also the doctor, and due to another GM error I know all the town players, so mafia had better be sure to kill me first. No slacking off!
That means you, sofanthiel.
Perfect.
Tell all, since you're already telling. Since you're a likely dead before D2 target, little reason to hide anything.
I'll mention I detest this playstyle, and that colors how I speak to you.
Why thou art vaguely poet-like?All right, I'm town again.
I'm also the doctor, and due to another GM error I know all the town players, so mafia had better be sure to kill me first. No slacking off!
That means you, sofanthiel.
Perfect.
Tell all, since you're already telling. Since you're a likely dead before D2 target, little reason to hide anything.
I'll mention I detest this playstyle, and that colors how I speak to you.
a1s, how do you usually respond to pressure?With barks and growling.
Thanks for the link. I think I learned something about you, but there is plenty of time left in the day to check my theory. Not changing my vote.What might we expect from you?Let's talk about you first. How do I know you're not scum? I haven't seen scum Imp play, what does scum Imp look like?
Sure! You're going to have to figure out for yourself if I'm scum or not, and watching how you do that is part of how I and others are going to figure out if we think you're scum or not. However, here's my first post as scum
How do you attempt to resolve strong players that usually play strongly as town or scum?I try to figure them out.
Sure! You're going to have to figure out for yourself if I'm scum or not, and watching how you do that is part of how I and others are going to figure out if we think you're scum or not. However, here's my first post as scumThanks for the link. I think I learned something about you, but there is plenty of time left in the day to check my theory. Not changing my vote.QuoteHow do you attempt to resolve strong players that usually play strongly as town or scum?I try to figure them out.
I dislike how emotionally heated discussions can get.Why thou art vaguely poet-like?All right, I'm town again.
I'm also the doctor, and due to another GM error I know all the town players, so mafia had better be sure to kill me first. No slacking off!
That means you, sofanthiel.
Perfect.
Tell all, since you're already telling. Since you're a likely dead before D2 target, little reason to hide anything.
I'll mention I detest this playstyle, and that colors how I speak to you.
I'm all kinds of things. It's my style, always been my style. If I ever say something that's hard to understand, please do ask for clarification.
What do you like best about playing Mafia, Cry, and what do you dislike that can happen in most games? (I hope that excludes GM errors - I'm trying to ask about outside of that).
Too easy. You're wrong this time. I'm a dogly dog now.
due to another GM error I know all the town players, so mafia had better be sure to kill me first. No slacking off!
That means you, sofanthiel.
On account of you not stating who my supposed partner is, I feel like this is just an attempt to get into my head and make me confess in case I'm a baddie (there wouldn't be a single reason for scum to ever risk fake-claiming doc in order to lynch a single townie), but if you actually are telling the truth, the game might restart again soon; we'll see."Patterns indicate two-dimensional thinking, Captain."
Just a general question to ask: Am I somewhat forgettable because of myawesome disguise that you foolish dogs will never see throughlack of participation generally?
Sof, I liked how you started last game, but it felt very buddy to me - not that I was ready to explore that openly before that game ended. Is that friendly style typical of how you play? What benefit did you see that having for your team that last game?
Due to another GM error, I'm actually reading your scumchat with Quarque right now. Both of you are currently talking about how I'm the coolest and best player in the game and you both wish I were on your team instead.
No, I just think he's trollingDue to another GM error, I'm actually reading your scumchat with Quarque right now. Both of you are currently talking about how I'm the coolest and best player in the game and you both wish I were on your team instead.
Aha! Now I know that you're just trying to trick me and coerce a false confession, for I haven't checked the discord once since this game began!
MaxSpin: Who do you think is the best doggie other than you?I heard that a1s is definitely a good dog. Can't argue with that logic.
Cry: Assuming you didn't just voted Quarque for the presumably funni, Who else at the start of this game would you have voted for?I did vote Quarque for the funni and because I have to get the conversation rolling. Other than that, I would have probably voted for Maximum Spin who's hard to read according to experienced players.
Unfortunately, my 1/2 brain cell does not allow me to process the information I gathered from whatever general scum-hunting tips and tricks effectively so this may just be a long and painful process for meI feel your pain. Max's play style gets me there too. I'm trying to endure and even learn to enjoy it - if it helps reveal scum (be that Max or any other) it has value. Even if I'd rather we all used any other way to find scum if we could.
Imp: If you were a cop, who would you investigate on n1? If it is the same as your currently voted person, then who would you investigate other than that?
Sofa: Why are you so friendly to the point its been giving bad feelings about it?
Unfortunately, my 1/2 brain cell does not allow me to process the information I gathered from whatever general scum-hunting tips and tricks effectively so this may just be a long and painful process for me
Quarque: As so many things went over my head during the last iteration of this game. Why were you considered a demoralized scum?Because of a brief post-game analysis I had with Imp. I was demoralized the moment the GM error escalated, anyway let's kindly not keep dregging that up. What are your top two scum reads?
Did you ever play with webadict?You didn't direct this question. I can't remember if I played with wuba or not. I last played nearly a decade ago. I've read so much, and have a decent memory (that doesn't really focus on names much, more info in general)
@Imp: no I'm not going to hound you all day, especially because your latest post did move my scum-o-meter into town direction. If the trend persists I will explain why later.
If you suspect a player, what do you think is best? Barking about it immediately in the first 24 hours or waiting for them to provide more evidence before presenting your case?
What are your top two scum reads?
I have no single answer to that, nearly everything to me is specific and context-based.Just what I was thinking. I need to sleep on this.
You didn't direct this question. I can't remember if I played with wuba or not. I last played nearly a decade ago. I've read so much, and have a decent memory (that doesn't really focus on names much, more info in general)I did mean you, but fair enough. I continue to be curious about exactly what playstyle it is that you detest so much.
I'm begging you please not to rehash every little bad joke other players make in your analysis though. :-X
I heard that a1s is definitely a good dog.I know you're making fun of me, but that just portrays me as a non-threatening goof.
a1s: Who sent in the best doggie photo?Max did. That's not an endorsement for him being town, though.
I wouldn't call it making fun of you, exactly. Just referencing you as an opportunity to defer a question I particularly dislike answering.I heard that a1s is definitely a good dog.I know you're making fun of me, but that just portrays me as a non-threatening goof.
I'm begging you please not to rehash every little bad joke other players make in your analysis though.
I want to hear more from Canuck, sofa, and Crymea River right now. You give off the impression of not having much of a clue what's going on.
1) Max is town and doctor, nobody counterclaims because no other town sees any advantage in lying about it, and scum doesn't want to go down that rabbit hole either.I feel like 2 and 3 are the most plausible because a doctor claiming is a death sentence because scum will target them
2) Max is town, but not doctor. Nobody counterclaims because the real doctor is still thinking about what to do, maybe even wondering if Max is town trying to protect the real doc or scum trying to protect scum. That could get really interesting if scum decide to claim doc, and the real doc now knows there's 2 'not docs, but claiming doc' out there.
3) Max is scum. Nobody counterclaims because the real doctor is still thinking about what to do, maybe even wondering if Max is town trying to protect the real doc or scum trying to protect scum.
All right. I want to hear more from Canuck, sofa, and Crymea River right now. You give off the impression of not having much of a clue what's going on.Yes, we do not have a clue of what's going on, this is day 1 after all. Also, I'm terrible at reading people so I'm just going to pressure vote a1s.
I feel like 2 and 3 are the most plausible because a doctor claiming is a death sentence because scum will target them
All right. I want to hear more from Canuck, sofa, and Crymea River right now. You give off the impression of not having much of a clue what's going on.Same as Sofa, I don't have a clue on what is even happening currently, other than the dogtor claim stuff
I actually didn't think of that. Maximum SpinI feel like 2 and 3 are the most plausible because a doctor claiming is a death sentence because scum will target them
It's also plausible that it was an attempt to bait the real doctor into counter-claiming, which would've prompted Spin to respond by pretending that he was just messing around. Long story short, we wouldn't have a doctor upon waking up the next morning!
Counts Everyone but Qua has responded since my question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=182139.msg8510065#msg8510065) about Max's doctor claim.
I'm also the doctor, and due to another GM error I know all the town players, so mafia had better be sure to kill me first. No slacking off!"due to another GM error I know all the town players".. I mean
Since everyone else has voted, I guess I should too: Maximum Spin
More reads after I drink some coffee.I'm afraid to ask how much "some" coffee is, but I would've expected even the most dedicated and toughest dogs in the world to have dropped from an overdose like 10 hours ago; cats, on the other hand...
sof: You finally take a stance to become the 3rd vote on Max's wagon.
sof was actually second on it, it really was not a wagon when sof changed their vote.
I'm honestly surprised that nobody except, apparently, Imp understood the purpose of the action.
Ehh, whatever, this seems to be the tribulation I have to go through every game.
TCk: Congrats. You are giving me a weak town read. You started a case on Max yesterday. However, what are your thoughts on the chance that Max could be town, and how much hunting should we do before we lynch him, to find his partner if nothing else? You didn't ask Max (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=182139.msg8509933#msg8509933) about his dogtor claim once you started questioning folks, you asked about his image choice even though he'd already dogtor claimed. Why'd you ask such a neutral question then, what were your thoughts and reasons? What made you decide to focus on that claim later, and why'd it take so long?Correction: I asked a1s about the dog image choice, I asked Max about who is the best doggie here
It's not trolling, it's a legitimate game tactic.and I figured that I probably won't get more answers about that since MaxSpin already stated that they wont answer questions unless they feel like it.
I can't explain it to you, though, or it wouldn't work. So you'll just have to trust me.
a1s: you didn't even mention Max's Dogtor claim for over 24 hours, now you vote on it, with the statement "Since everyone else has voted, I guess I should too" as your sole reason. You've done nothing before that point besides defend yourself. Explain yourself, you look like scum right now to an amazing degree. If you're town, you really must do better, because you make it too easy for scum to hide.I did mention it, actually. And I vote in self-preservation: at the time of my vote it was my understanding that me and max were tied for being lynched at 3 votes, so I made sure the crosshairs were off of me.
Cry: Your play's reasonably town to me. I want to ask though, yesterday, you even quoted me quoting Max's dogtor claim, but you didn't address any questions to Max, you asked me about my somewhat poeticness. Why'd you let a day pass without a reaction to Max's claim? What did you think initially? You've told us you didn't realize it could be part of an attempt to make the doctor reveal, Max to reveal 'jokester/liar/townie don't lynch me please I was trying to help' - okay. But what were you thinking, and why'd you let it pass without challenge?I was focused on your reaction because I thought it was a bit poetic. I thought nothing of Max's claim other than 'Maximum Spin is joking' and I let it pass without a challenge because of that.
I am wondering if your playstyle's to look at least somewhat scummy every game, regardless of if you are town or scum.Not intentionally, but it tends to work out that way. My playstyle has two core parts. One is to take bold brash actions and control the game evolution, forcing others into a reactive position. The other part is to just do whatever I feel like doing at any given moment, because life's too short to overanalyze things. My unpredictable YOLO style makes me dangerous and weird, which keeps everyone guessing. Then I eat the other players' brains and learn their alignments.
What are you doing, Max, and how does it help town?I actually had a whole analysis in my head back when you asked me not to post until last - I actually was going to do what you asked, it was a reasonable enough request, you know - but I'm just not feeling it now. The moment passed, but I'll see what I can salvage.
Also, Max - please share what you choose to say of your current read on everyone?Sure. I feel like couch, cryer, and kitteh all basically seem like noobs with no idea, so they're probably not scum. You, Quarque, and steak sauce are my logical POE. Still, I know from that previous game with Snowkiller that some of the noobs do have balls, so - particularly if you really are town - I wouldn't rule them out completely.
"couch, cryer, and kitteh all basically seem like noobs with no idea, so they're probably not scum"Well, the scum might be noobs, but they always have an idea, because they know they're the scum. Of course the scum can try and hide that way, I would hope we all know that. I'm just banking on my ability to tell the difference, like in any game. In other words, I'm giving you my impressions as they are, not as they could hypothetically be, and you have to judge based on your impression of my discernment, too.
looks up mafia POE, ahh, process of elimination
Why can't scum seem like noobs with no idea, or why is that rare? For that matter, is that an unlikely way for a scum to try and hide?
"Snowkiller" - which one of us is that?Nobody. I guess I can't fault you for this because I often call people by weird names. Snowkiller was an actual player in a recent game. Let me look it up... http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=181688.0 is the one I meant, where, as you can see, many of the players here were there.
Are you aware that your currently provided reads are really short, not really town-useful, and pretty low effort?It's early on day 1 and we've barely gotten anywhere. I don't even really have "reads" yet, I just have thoughts, and I don't like sharing them. Even when under threat of lynching, it's hard for me to want to commit to something this early. Besides, any thoughts I have are probably useless if I die because they'd need to be updated as the game progresses.
What are your thoughts about how each player has played, if any of them seem townlike, scumlike, and why?I... just answered that...? I think we have very different worldviews. I can pack a lot of meaning into just a sentence or two, so it's important to be able to fully understand what I mean. Let me explain. Sofanthiel, The Canadian kitten, and Crystalizedmire are all playing like people who don't have any information and are scrambling to figure out what's real and what isn't, or, in other words, like town. At a minimum, I know TCk can fake it, though, and I wouldn't be surprised if the other two can too. Quarque, well, I originally thought was playing like someone who is trying to find somewhere to park a vote which other players will accept, ie, scummy, but, like I said, I don't think that push on me is within the Quarque scum meta, so I'm willing to set that aside for now. a1s seems to be playing like someone who would rather be doing anything else, which is fully consistent with previous scum meta, hence my vote. And you play like you want to control the game too, but with point-by-point dogmatic analysis, which is something I tend to strongly scumread, but is probably NAI. Kind of reminds me of Lenglon a little.
Max, also. About your analysis, you don't even seem to consider how the rest of town might react to the doctor claim. You seem to predict that if you're claiming doctor while actually not being doctor, you're setting up for the doctor to protect you in the night. [...] You don't even seem to think it possible that the town might consider lynching you, on the possibility or likelihood that you may be a super audacious scum claiming doctor, with or without the concerns some stated as they placed votes. What was your consideration about that, if any? You don't even mention it now, when it's what's potentially about to happen.I mean, of course I considered it, but YOLO. It's mafia, sometimes I get lynched for being weird and dangerous, not a big deal. It's happened to me a few times. I think I have a better track record of talking my way out of lynches as mafia. Obviously, I did think about the possibility that I might have to, like now, justify the reasoning which would tend to make my original gambit fail, but it didn't stop me from wanting to do it. Like I said in the last half, during the whole claim thing... I'm not big on planning to fail. Everything always comes with the possibility of going wrong. Plan to succeed, and then make it happen.
You currently sit with 5 votes on you. Are you the sort of player who, as town, allows the town suffer for the way they read your behavior?Ohhhh god yes. When I've been lynched as town, I think, oh well, your funeral, now I can do something else. I won't pretend that isn't a little selfish, but it's not that I'm actually "allowing the town to suffer", it's that I can only be responsible for myself. I don't control the actions and reactions of others. I want to do the best thing I can with my actions while I have the chance, and if I expect to be killed by the mafia (as I do) I want to leave town set up the best way I can, but once I'm out, that's it. Unless there's ghost stuff, but that's not present here. I'm not even likely to hang around in deadchat. For me, the game's over when I'm dead, because I can no longer influence anything. What other players do is up to them.
To me, right now, you read as more likely to be scum than town. I don't see scum hunting, I don't see you trying to prepare your town for victory regardless of when you might die, be it D1, N1, later, or never.That's fine for you.
I'm willing to call your audacious claims as 'null'. But I believe that you work toward your team's wincon, and I don't see you currently working towards a town win.
I also don't know you really well. Some people don't work well towards their team wincon. It's an art, to read someone as a player with whatever strengths and flaws and correctly identify them as having 'X quirk' but using it towards a Town win or towards a Mafia win. I'm also not highly accurate in actually reading town vs scum. 'Scummy' is easy to read. But I've previously helped lynch my own team because of their difficult to read, or even poor, play.I just don't agree that there's anything wrong with my play. I have made what I consider to be a series of perfectly reasonable moves under the circumstances. I continue to do so now. If I do, in fact, not get lynched, then my position will seem awfully vindicated. But I might not, and I do accept that as part of the cost of doing business.
So, I just wanna ask, and encourage, play to your team's wincon, whatever that is. In case we're on the same team, I'd really, really appreciate that. If you die town I'm going to be pretty disappointed in you, because I don't see you working hard for a town win, and I expect that of everyone, and want to encourage that from everyone. That said, if you are scum, you're doing great.
Just thinking about it, if Maxspin is truly either Mafia or a non-dogtor town role, the actual Dogtor would have spoken up, especially since the majority of us are newbs that would spend less time and just assume that you are scum for claiming.
I could see holes in my line of thinking now, too bad I can't patch it up in a decent way instead of drafting a new line of thinking.
Same question for everyoneDoes that include me? Serious question, to me it seems like you can assume my answers but maybe you really want to know.
Same question for everyoneDoes that include me? Serious question, to me it seems like you can assume my answers but maybe you really want to know.
Man, the silence is getting to me. Silence during the day rarely helps town, unless we agree we think we know who the last scum to get rid of is and we just need to see the roleflip - and I'm not there at all.Well I'm there and have been a few days. We found two really likely scum candidates and we don't have to look for a third one.
Well I'm there and have been a few days. We found two really likely scum candidates and we don't have to look for a third one.
I felt that a1s and Max were trying to create an impression of mildly sussing each other with a barely suppressed undertone of being best buds from the start. On top of that they've both been as suspicious in my eye as they get individually. I already told you in painful detail what makes me suspect Max and I'm sorry a1s, but if it looks like a cat it might be a cat.
Further evidence, even though CK / Sof / Crystal said little, all three of them seem to play their town metas. For CK and Sof that means being relatively chill and not tense. For Crystal it means being a cute little puppy.
I've stayed silent because you seem hellbent on making things needlessly complicated here. I do not believe that adding more words is always necessarily good for Town. Have you seen this game? http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=182017.0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=182017.0)
If we dig into the endless discussions you enjoy so much, chances are we might get distracted and chase some red herring.
By the way Imp, the fact that you're telling people what to do is what convinced me that you're likely town. That is the one thing I noticed you not doing in the game you linked me where you were scum. Of course that game was long ago, so I could be wrong, it could be that your style evolved. But given the above, I'll chance it.
I'd be willing to bet that, if the first half of the game had gone into n1, sofanthiel and Quarque would have killed me.
I think you'll have to admit that the motives are clearly weaker for scum. It's drawing a lot of attention for minimal benefit.
Other question would beIt means that A) real Doctor is smart enough to know that counter-claiming to 360 spin's counterclaim is a bad idea.
Cry: What do you think about the lack of people counter-claiming dogtor?
How do you feel about this probability? How sure are you that Max is scum? How sure are you that his roleflip will help you play the rest of this game, no matter how he flips? Are you prepared for the possibility that we lynch doctor D1, or why do you think this isn't going to happen when we lynch Max, if that is done? Have you prepared yourself for the mental and emotional costs that often come with a D1 lynch of a claimed doctor, as well as the mental and emotional rewards that often come with a D1 lynch of scum that made an outrageous not-counterclaimed doctor claim?To be honest, I'm not sure at all if he is scum or not. Maximum Spin is unlikely to survive the first night in my opinion. If Maximum Spin flips town then Imp would probably be killed on night 1(if they're not mafia) and we're forced into elo. If Maximum Spin is town and doctor, we would be at a disadvantage for the rest of the game. If Maximum Spin is mafia then we would be afforded one miselmination.
Do you see any use or benefit to town in keeping Max alive past D1, compared to the value of his roleflip or outright removal from play at the close of D1?
You know, when I list out the possibilities like that, No elimination seems like a better option.
I've stayed silent because you seem hellbent on making things needlessly complicated here. I do not believe that adding more words is always necessarily good for Town.
You know, when I list out the possibilities like that, No elimination seems like a better option.
Well, that's something we can both agree on, haha! It would be much simpler if town was honest and serious about any and all mechanical assertions: Max claims, X counter-claims--Boom! Good game, everyone! I'm also increasingly more worried about a1s's coffee intake (and involvement with the cats), so they're definitely my second choice, but I just don't see the two as a pair; what's the actual connection?
I heard that a1s is definitely a good dog.I know you're making fun of me, but that just portrays me as a non-threatening goof.
This exchange gave me the vibe.I heard that a1s is definitely a good dog.I know you're making fun of me, but that just portrays me as a non-threatening goof.
I'm only partially joking, by the way.Hey, you're not even in what you quoted.
Hey, you're not even in what you quoted.
What exactly are you 'partially joking about'?
Well, that's something we can both agree on, haha! It would be much simpler if town was honest and serious about any and all mechanical assertions: Max claims, X counter-claims--Boom! Good game, everyone! I'm also increasingly more worried about a1s's coffee intake (and involvement with the cats), so they're definitely my second choice, but I just don't see the two as a pair; what's the actual connection?
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=180591.msg8429924#msg8429924I think that was the only game where I was scum recently (in the last ~5 years.) I rather liked that one, because I had a bit of help with my otherwise inadequate play. I'm clearly not getting that help in this thread, so I'm probably town.
More importantly, I really do think that lynching me could lose the game for town... not out of an overly-inflated sense of my own worth, although I do have that, but because you'd be left at MYLO, and I know how these things usually go when town's confused after a big mistake: the tallest poppies get the knife.
Lynching any town would lead to that. If Max is town he's not working hard to try and prevent any other townie's D1 lynch. I presume he's also suggesting I should protect him to protect myself, with that 'tall poppy' comment. Nah, bro, drink your own whine, I don't want any more.... what? I don't think we speak the same language.
Qua is showing decent play. Nearly a null read for me, but I wonder at the choice to tell me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=182139.msg8510268#msg8510268) why I read likely town to them.Did that because it is something others probably didn't notice and they might want to take it into account. And as I said, I could be mistaken, because I'm basing this on an old game and your style might have changed. You're hard to read for me otherwise.
A1s Null read for meI will take this as a compliment. I know we're all trying to project "town", but if people can tell when you're town, they can tell when you're scum and (in my book) you're playing sub-optimally.
and (in my book) you're playing sub-optimally.
Based on my IRL experience there isn't much for town to do on D1, except identify who the top detective in the group is, and make sure they are not lynched. This clearly carries over to forum mafia, since you've been projecting this like crazy, and it's not to impress PotOS (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThereAreNoGirlsOnTheInternet). Interestingly (well not that interestingly, since I already said your play should not depend on whether you're scum or town) this is also the goal of scum- they'll want to kill off the top detective at night. Unless he's one of them (then they're lynched D2.)and (in my book) you're playing sub-optimally.
Beams Gonna discuss that book, a1s? I already asked for how you think we should play.... sorry. How town should play D1.
I guess I don't like Forum mafia as much as I thought I would.That's what I discovered this game as well. I find it a psychological form of mild torture to be honest. As town it channels my inner asshole and I don't like it. And if I were to play again and roll scum one more time I'd need years of therapy, lol.
Let me expand on this.Lynching any town would lead to that. If Max is town he's not working hard to try and prevent any other townie's D1 lynch. I presume he's also suggesting I should protect him to protect myself, with that 'tall poppy' comment. Nah, bro, drink your own whine, I don't want any more.... what? I don't think we speak the same language.
Oh, and, Quarque, you know, you can test your utterly bizarre "a1s and Spin team" theory either way. At least give me a chance?Damn I shouldn't fall for an appeal to emotion.
Oh, and, Quarque, you know, you can test your utterly bizarre "a1s and Spin team" theory either way. At least give me a chance?Damn I shouldn't fall for an appeal to emotion.
Not sure how I'm supposed to test, but we'll see. Pretty confident this is a safe vote.
a1s
Not sure how I'm supposed to test, but we'll see. Pretty confident this is a safe vote.I just mean that if it really is the two of us... and I guess I've bussed a partner that hard before, honestly... then you'll get a positive hit either way.
1. Who is CTK? Canadian the Kitten?
2. What do you even mean by from a1s to max to no vote? This is crys voting record. I just went from max to a1s, are you going to say it's still hard for me to have opinions?
Cry switched from Qua to a1s to Max to No Lynch
TCk switched from Max (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=182139.msg8510113#msg8510113) to unvote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=182139.msg8510169#msg8510169)to a1s (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=182139.msg8510298#msg8510298)
I do feel that a1s should have doctor claimed/counterclaimed earlier, because it was largely the fact no one else counter claimed, or hinted that they were doctor that made me unsure.What, no. That's the last thing a1s should have done. That just gets you killed in the night. Some better play or attempt at defense might have been nice, but keeping quiet about being the doctor was the right thing to do, or otherwise my whole plan would've gone to waste. Which, well, it did, but at least that's on me instead.
Well Maximum Spin, I gave you a chance and that was almost certainly a blunder. But go ahead and use your chance. Maybe you could explain yourself? Like, one of the things you said was that you hadn't made any jokes? So when you said that you knew who all of the town players are, that was serious? And that insane doctor claim was somehow not an evil plot? I'm all ears.I didn't make any jokes. Everything I said was for a reason. That doesn't mean it was true. Obviously I didn't know everyone's roles and there weren't any GM errors this time as far as I know. I said I didn't make any jokes, though, because nothing I said was just to be funny. Everything was part of the gambit. The point of the silly, obviously fake parts of the claim were there to bolster the doctor claim by making the mafia wonder if it's all a joke or some parts are true.
Quarque: Why did you switch your vote to a1s?Yes, it does make me look scummy doesn't it. I was slightly more certain about a1s. They've made no attempt to scumhunt whatsoever so I thought it was the safer bet.
That tied the votes, thus forcing another player to switch votes, and imp also commented that the action makes you look like scum.
The point of the silly, obviously fake parts of the claim were there to bolster the doctor claim by making the mafia wonder if it's all a joke or some parts are true.What parts, in particular? And how would that have helped town?
Surely you cannot possibly think that the doctor claim would be an evil plot. There's no way I draw that much attention as mafia. I mean, you look what it almost got me d1 and what it's currently getting me now... do you think I'm that bad at this game? Okay, maybe after my performance this time that's a bad question, but still.No, I think you are good enough at the game to do something like this as a gambit because you can then make precisely this claim afterward.
That means you, sofanthiel.Your first pick was on Sof.. that could help to figure out the puzzle.
I would have to say, what the hell.The only thing we can gleam from Imp's death is that scum thought they were a bigger threat than anyone else. This doesn't necessarily mean that Maximum Spin is scum, although scum may have left them alive because they're scummier than Imp, though I'm still fairly convinced that Maximum is scum.
Maximum Spin
Clearly didn't die n1, and claims doctor and then we lynched the real doctor.
Honestly, I reread the game earlier and I do have a theory now. I'm not sure anyone will listen to me, and I don't blame you. But I sure did notice that TCk and Quarque looked awfully buddy-buddy. Notably, now that I know that both me and a1s were town, either lynch option should have been okay to them... especially at the point where it already looked like I'd be an easy d2 target.If they're partners, why would Quarque switch votes if they're fine with both options? Though Quarque does claim it is because of appeal to emotion so maybe that is the reason?
Reading the older posts now, Maximum Spin voted against a1s after they found Maximum's doctor claim suspicious. Since we know that a1s is doctor, could that mean Maximum realized a1s is doctor?I appreciate the vote of confidence, but no, I didn't find that particular suspicion any different from anyone else's. I'm not that good a mind reader.
So, is there a living cop left? If so, now would be the time to speak up. I am not a cop, I am a regular old dog. I don't even really know what the role does, so if you could please explain it, thank you.
Honestly, I reread the game earlier and I do have a theory now. I'm not sure anyone will listen to me, and I don't blame you. But I sure did notice that TCk and Quarque looked awfully buddy-buddy. Notably, now that I know that both me and a1s were town, either lynch option should have been okay to them... especially at the point where it already looked like I'd be an easy d2 target.Can you clarify which part seemed buddy-buddy, because I can't see it and Canadian Kitten has roleclaimed cop now.
Can you clarify which part seemed buddy-buddy, because I can't see it and Canadian Kitten has roleclaimed cop now.Well, that theory's basically blown now anyway, so maybe it was just my imagination. If you still care I'll reread the thread again when I feel like it.
Sofanthiel must be scum or Maximum Spin and Quarque were bussing each other.
Oh, and, Quarque, you know, you can test your utterly bizarre "a1s and Spin team" theory either way. At least give me a chance?
Also, from my perspective, assuming that the Canadian Kitten is indeed telling the truth, then Sofanthiel must be scum or Maximum Spin and Quarque were bussing each other.Wait what am I saying. Crystalizedmire alread said it here.
Crystalizedmire. Come to old Quarque and look me in the eye. Tell me pup, this is important. I want you to imagine being a cat for a moment. Relax, I know cats upset you, this is just a bad dream. What would you do?I'd probably get voted out on the first day.
I'd probably get voted out on the first day.Why do you think so? How would people figure you out?
I did so badly as being the dog in the know that if I knew more than that I'd probably be even worse at hiding it.I'd probably get voted out on the first day.Why do you think so? How would people figure you out?
To be fair, I was busy writing a story.Sometime Tuesday over here. Or 3 days, take 2 hours less.
Also, how much time do we have left?
That's the best I can do without help. Passing the microphone. TCK, curious about your thoughts especially because as the known cop you're a likely next nightkill.
Have to say, weird method of questioning.Well from my experience in earlier games I know how uncomfortable it can be having to lie and I thought that playing on a guilty conscience could work to an extent. Plus I liked doing a little roleplay, it fits in the theme the GM was setting. (Have you seen Bladerunner? I love the tortoise scene.)
To be fair, I was busy writing a story.Hmm. You did have time to post on the forum and leave again while I was waiting for a response for hours.
can you just quickly explain just the thought process of you going from "CM wants no elim, therefore probs town" to "CM wanting no elim, fits into them being scum"?At first I thought: they'd never do this if part of a scum team.
I'm a lot more divided on CM to be honest. I feel really hard to form opinion actually so I will check back and return with some researchMax and CM are both a little hard to get a grasp on. I can list the hints I found, but maybe you prefer to do your own research first so you do it with the most open mind possible? We've got some days left.
I just find the idea of CM trying to go for a no lynch, after having done a game where everyone basically explained why it's terrible for a no lynch during the first day odd.What happened is that I knew that I wouldn't be able to do anything on thursday because I had school and piano class that day. But I realized I was just voting Maximum Spin because everyone else was voting Maximum Spin and I didn't read them as scum. So I voted no Elim because I knew that not voting would be worse.
Sofanthiel was also against no elim:To be fair, I was busy writing a story.Hmm. You did have time to post on the forum and leave again while I was waiting for a response for hours.can you just quickly explain just the thought process of you going from "CM wants no elim, therefore probs town" to "CM wanting no elim, fits into them being scum"?At first I thought: they'd never do this if part of a scum team.
Then I thought about it again and refined that a little. If part of a noobish scum team with limited guidance, I can see it happen. They'd never do this when part of a scum team, if being coached by an experienced player. This is the main reason why I don't believe the scum team can be Crystal + Max.
Not a completely waterproof argument - it could be that Max is bad at coaching or something. But it adds to the pile of incriminating evidence against Sofanthiel.
Anyway that was part one of the thought process. I could write a whole lot more about how I started to see it as an argument in favor of Crystal being scum and at the same time still an argument against them being on a scum team with Max, but maybe I shouldn't do that yet, see below.
You know, when I list out the possibilities like that, No elimination seems like a better option.
Crystal, if we don't eliminate, scum can shoot at completely random, landing us right back to day 1, except now there's 4 town and 2 mafia. The only upside for dogs that I can perceive to opt to not lynch is if:
A) The cop knows who to investigate at night, and
B) The doctor knows to defend the cop.
Forgot to respond to this, I was procrastinating from posting in this game by procrastinating from writing my story.To be fair, I was busy writing a story.Hmm. You did have time to post on the forum and leave again while I was waiting for a response for hours.
A question for Maximum Spin. Early on your first vote was for Sofanthiel. Why?Sofanthiel was the last player not to have spoken. I wanted to pick someone who hadn't already been in a conversation to do a vibe check on, so he seemed like the best choice. Also, as a bonus, it let me make the comment about the teams being the same, which I found funny since I had the same role again, which I was hoping to subtly hint at.
Oh, and, Quarque, you know, you can test your utterly bizarre "a1s and Spin team" theory either way. At least give me a chance?Did you expect that I would change my mind about you after finding out that my theory was wrong, by the way?
Wait, the doctor is dead, The Canadian Kitten(?) already claimed cop with no one challenging them, and it isn't unlikely that someone would be vanilla twice in a row. What do you mean by the teams being the same?A question for Maximum Spin. Early on your first vote was for Sofanthiel. Why?Sofanthiel was the last player not to have spoken. I wanted to pick someone who hadn't already been in a conversation to do a vibe check on, so he seemed like the best choice. Also, as a bonus, it let me make the comment about the teams being the same, which I found funny since I had the same role again, which I was hoping to subtly hint at.
Wait, the doctor is dead, The Canadian Kitten(?) already claimed cop with no one challenging them, and it isn't unlikely that someone would be vanilla twice in a row. What do you mean by the teams being the same?I mean that I accused sofanthiel and Quarque of being the mafia again, somewhere in my first few posts. I didn't really think it was likely, although it's technically possible - I doubt that Tric would change it if it happened to roll out that way. I was just using it as a springboard for my opening.
Did you expect that I would change my mind about you after finding out that my theory was wrong, by the way?No, although I kinda hoped that, if you're town, you might at least reevaluate.
Yes. Indeed, I am trying my best to avoid confirmation bias and reevaluate objectively. I asked because it is a little odd that you expected me to discover my theory to be wrong.Did you expect that I would change my mind about you after finding out that my theory was wrong, by the way?No, although I kinda hoped that, if you're town, you might at least reevaluate.
All right, I'm town again.Unless the emphasized bit here was
I'm also the doctor, and due to another GM error I know all the town players, so mafia had better be sure to kill me first. No slacking off!
That means you, sofanthiel.
You get the point, though? a1s looked very scum and you'd voted for them too. I would think you had expected them to flip scum.I... did, yes. I can't say I get your point.
I asked because it is a little odd that you expected me to discover my theory to be wrong.No, I expected you to reevaluate after we discovered your theory was wrong. Before that, I expected to have to convince you that I would have picked literally anyone but my partner to try to convince you to vote for in place of me if we really had been a team.
Canadian, any updates on your research yet?
Evidence #1, with TCK cleared, the only alternative is that the scum team is Crystal + Max and that is something I find really hard to believe.1. From your perspective, yes; nothing to really argue there.
Evidence #2, you actually didn't say much at all except when you really needed to. It didn't catch my attention as much during day 1 but now it is striking.
Evidence #3, you were oh so eager to announce the deadline. Exciting isn't it, a deadline when you are scum? Only a few more minutes and you've made it through the questioning.
Evidence #4, we have been a scum team before. Your hysterical throwing of accusations is something I can easily see your scum self do. Weird how little effort you were putting into investigating the situation, or your usual casual chatter.
So, process of elimination. If a1s was not the other scum, who is? Crystalizedmire came up with the brilliant idea of a nolynch last turn and that means they're almost certainly town. No one else among us would think it is a good idea and a scum partner could have made them many things, but surely not this.Crystal, I wanna point out how Quarque's unfounded exclusion of you from the list of potential suspects seems like a subtle way to get inside your head and buddy up, subconsciously influencing your subsequent vote, which worked by merely going unnoticed. Of course, Qua didn't know that TCk was a cop, but if you go through all the possibilities, it makes sense how choosing a person to put on a pedestal of townliness universally helps in that situation at that point in time. Logically, how does promoting a nolynch, especially after we've already had a relatively lengthy discussion about nolyches being harmful to town in this game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=181909), guarantee one's dog alignment?
The last thing Sofanthiel did before apparently giving up and going AWOLI recognize that I should've informed you guys, but come on! There's a reason Tric gave us 120 hours instead of the usual 72, so I thought there'd be no issue with a 2-day departure. That's a matter of out-of-game circumstances, and a LOT of what you've been discussing while I was away is that very thing!
Also, from my perspective, assuming that the Canadian Kitten is indeed telling the truth, then Sofanthiel must be scum or Maximum Spin and Quarque were bussing each other.
Please pay attention, Tric. This is the more recent vote.The perils of manual votecounting I suppose. Fixed.Also, from my perspective, assuming that the Canadian Kitten is indeed telling the truth, then Sofanthiel must be scum or Maximum Spin and Quarque were bussing each other.
Responding to the cats is a waste of time now that I know who is whoGreat excuse to completely ignore the answers to all the questions you've asked me!
None of that would have made any sense if the scum team had been Sofanthiel + Crystalizedmire. My first instinct was right after all.If you're so convinced you know who the cats are, why not shoot Max, the primary reason we eliminated the doctor, the person we've been suspecting throughout the entire game, and the one Imp tried cracking down on, first? For anyone genuinely thinking it's the two of us, in what world would it make sense to lynch me on day 2? At the start, it was Max and a1s; now it's Max and I, but it's never "let's just get one of the cats out by voting Max". Why is that? Oh, maybe because you're a team and, as long as you don't plainly side with him, there's no way you could have some kind of symbiotic relationship. You're the reason he's in the game, and it seems the reason he's making it to day 3. Provided you really believe that your initial instinct was right after all, vote Max (which I was sure I did earlier, but no matter) with me.
My playstyle is WINNING....Unless you're only pretending to not care, of course, but why would anyone ever do that, hmm?
Yeah, this is too much of a "shoot the other guy" choice here for meHonestly, it seems like it's past time for that... any analysis I could give would be tainted by the fact that, from your position, it's a 50% chance whether I'm trying to help or snow you. I think you just have to trust yourself, and I just have to trust you.
Maxspin: like any analysis? For this entire game, you were pretty out of it.
Yeah no, I don't think i can grab much more from rereading this thread, and just have to guess/trust my gutWhy would I bus my partner on ELo then? Also, why would I kill the townie that believes that I'm town? It would make way more sense for me to not be scum. Also, despite sofanthiel stating that they believe scum team is Maximum Spin and Quarque, sofanthiel didn't vote Maximum Spin until the day was almost over. And Maximum Spin's response to the sofanthiel bandwagon was this:
Time to disappoint Quarque and the rest of town!
Crystalizedmire
Honestly, high chance of being wrong (more like 50/50) but, I rather not go more insane than I already am from these Mafia games.
If Max is scum, GG because this was just screwing my brain around.
Oh, everyone's voting for sofanthiel? I thought people were still voting me.Max was also the last one to vote sofanthiel so I think that these two are the scum team.
I waited to vote because I knew some people still suspected me, and I didn't want to mess it up for town by making everyone second-guess themselves.Oh, everyone's voting for sofanthiel? I thought people were still voting me.Max was also the last one to vote sofanthiel so I think that these two are the scum team.
First of all, Canadian Kitten already claimed cop with no one challenging them. That is why I voted Sofanthiel. Once I narrowed down the possible scum combinations to Maximum + Sofanthiel, Quarque + Sofanthiel, and Quarque + Maximum; I decided that Quarque and you can't be the scum duo because they've been at each others throat for pretty much the entire game leaving only combinations that include sofanthiel.I waited to vote because I knew some people still suspected me, and I didn't want to mess it up for town by making everyone second-guess themselves.Oh, everyone's voting for sofanthiel? I thought people were still voting me.Max was also the last one to vote sofanthiel so I think that these two are the scum team.
As for why you'd bus your partner, I can think of a few reasons, like that you were afraid Quarque or I would turn out to be the cop and TCk was obviously completely townie and un-voteable, or you might have panicked that the cop could have checked him and wanted to get out ahead of it. But I don't really know what went through your mind. You certainly weren't getting anyone else out yesterday. You may not have even intended to bus, if you didn't expect to set off such a big wagon and just wanted to distance, then got stuck with it.
As for why you'd bus your partner, I can think of a few reasons, like that you were afraid Quarque or I would turn out to be the cop and TCk was obviously completely townie and un-voteableWait, why would of you guys turn out to be a cop worry me? The game was at ELo at that point so regardless of what role you guys had, a miseliminate would end the game.
you might have panicked that the cop could have checked him and wanted to get out ahead of it.Here's the post where The Canadian Kitten claims cop and states they checked Imp:
This just further proves I need to massively chill out, much more than here at least.Here's my post where I voted sofanthiel:
I might just be playing this game as town with the mindset of scum sorry
also unvote because i did it in a fit of anger.So, is there a living cop left? If so, now would be the time to speak up. I am not a cop, I am a regular old dog. I don't even really know what the role does, so if you could please explain it, thank you.
I am the cop, I investigate players and find out whether they are suspicious or not. The problem comes from the fact I investigated Imp, and whaddya know? Imp dies.
Also, from my perspective, assuming that the Canadian Kitten is indeed telling the truth, then Sofanthiel must be scum or Maximum Spin and Quarque were bussing each other.As you can see by the time displayed, I posted my vote after TCK claimed cop and claimed to have investigated Imp. So your theory that I panicked because I was afraid of the cop checking them is incorrect as I already knew who the cop checked. And the reason why you couldn't make up a convincing reason for why I threw my partner under the bus is because you are scum and knew that I was a townie trying to vote out scum.
I should've stuck with my vote on Maximum Spin.So should I in day 1.
I should've stuck with my vote on Maximum Spin.So should I in day 1.
Was really surprised you voted Crystal day 3, Canadian. During day 2 I wanted to eliminate all doubt that Crystal really had to be the other dog, but paradoxically this might have made you doubt. :( Would it have helped if I had left a better explanation at the end of day 2?
The Jack Playstyle. In LYLO, flip a coin to decide.I should've stuck with my vote on Maximum Spin.So should I in day 1.
Was really surprised you voted Crystal day 3, Canadian. During day 2 I wanted to eliminate all doubt that Crystal really had to be the other dog, but paradoxically this might have made you doubt. :( Would it have helped if I had left a better explanation at the end of day 2?
Yeah, that would have been helpful
I might as well live with the fact I threw this game by just being too indecisive for mafia
It was a really hard choice between Max and CM that I flipped a coin to help decide, and look where that got me
sorry :(