Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Topic started by: FallacyofUrist on February 11, 2024, 02:18:57 am

Title: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 11, 2024, 02:18:57 am
The red-colored Entity was displeased. It took only moments to make their decision. They would simply have to teach the blue Entity the error of their ways, in the only way they could understand.

They called up their advisors, fragments of self that nonetheless possessed individual names, personalities, identities.

They began their creation. Though they had power to destroy or shape a thousand worlds, it would be wrong to use that to directly strike the other Entity. There was no need to escalate things beyond the total conquest of this battlefield.


Core Thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=182402.new#new).


Spoiler: Current Designs (click to show/hide)


It is the first Shift Phase. What would you like to change about the game? I'll recommend that you use a vote box to keep track of the votes.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Rockeater on February 11, 2024, 06:07:27 am
PTW
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 11, 2024, 09:36:30 am
Shift: Shifting Battlefield
At the end of each Battle Phase, the terrain of the entire battlefield changes randomly.
Eg, changing from flat granite to dense woodland one turn, then changing to scattered islands the next, and so on.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Man of Paper on February 11, 2024, 11:44:19 am
Shift: Disintegrating Battlefield for Discerning Badasses

At the end of each Battle Phase, the terrain of the entire battlefield changes randomly.
Eg, changing from flat granite to dense woodland one turn, then changing to scattered islands the next, and so on.

However, as each battle progresses, the battlefield falls apart and fades back into the featureless grey expanse. This comes about both through a natural slow erosion as the rules maintaining the battlefield fade as well as erosion and destruction caused by marauding armies. This inevitably results in a final clash between opposing forces in the aetheric fading and destroyed environments blended with the default state of the universe.

———

I take your idea and add to it.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 11, 2024, 12:59:48 pm
Quote from: Man of Paper on February 11, 2024, 11:44:19 am
Shift: Disintegrating Battlefield for Discerning Badasses
Okay, so. This is a more interesting concept. But, I would argue it is a less appealing Shift. I have two main problems with it:
1: As the battle progresses, the battlefield gets less interesting. That seems undesirable.
2: Mechanically, how would this work? For both players and GM. For players, what design changes would be made? Other than "if we turtle long enough we can always fight in the same environment", which again, not very interesting. For the GM, more importantly, they have to now consider the duration of a battle and constantly adjust how strong each side is in the terrain present. How granular are they supposed to get with that? This would make writing BRs considerably more taxing, for a result that is at best not a lot more interesting, and at worst less interesting.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Man of Paper on February 11, 2024, 01:51:30 pm
I don't expect the battlefield rules to go unmodified for more than a turn, so having a neat concept play out once or twice doesn't seem like that big of a deal. If both sides get to change the rules once a turn, we're going to roll through options pretty quickly if both sides shift everything but the map. And if it doesn't work?

Quote
If you don't like how something works, go ahead and Shift it.

The first point is entirely reliant on the writer anyways. The battlefield might become plain, but that isn't the battle.
The second point isn't our concern as stated in the OP. I think Fal has made it pretty clear that anything we toss into the blender will be(rightfully) picked over with a comb.

Yeah, I get that those are concerns. Entirely valid. But I do they look more like concerns from a gm's own experience and player blurring the lines they should be thinking along a little bit. Fal might not see things through often (not like many of us do), but I do at least think what they have done shows an ability to keep things interesting. There was the one discord-run one back in the old days that had some halfcocked movement mechanic for the bases, but it was still interesting.


tl;dr I think you're putting too much stock in the longevity and reach of Shifts, and my opinion is we should focus more on the temporary, short term fun stuff. We're not setting rules in stone, so we aren't defining the entire game. We should take this opportunity to fiddle with an arms race like this, I think, since it's not like we get this ruleset often (or Arms Races often, either).
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Kashyyk on February 11, 2024, 03:53:56 pm
Shifting Battle Royale
At the end of each Battle Phase, the terrain of the entire battlefield changes randomly.
Eg, changing from flat granite to dense woodland one turn, then changing to scattered islands the next, and so on.

However, as each battle progresses, the battlefield falls apart, with these s falling into the endless void. This comes about as a slow erosion along the battlefield edges, plus any terrain damage caused by combatants.


Hits MoP's vibe whilst addressing Nuke's concerns I think.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Man of Paper on February 11, 2024, 05:07:44 pm
What if we XBox 180

Shift: Natural Feature Creep

At the end of each Battle Phase, the terrain of the entire battlefield changes randomly (Eg, changing from flat granite to dense woodland one turn, then changing to scattered islands the next, and so on). However, each battlefield starts off as a very small individual feature that makes up the terrain. As the battles progress, the field around them expands and transforms to "reveal" more of the landscape while the number of forces on the field naturally grows to match (obviously the same ratios are maintained).
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Crystalizedmire on February 11, 2024, 05:56:11 pm
Fallacy: If we use a shift to cause the battle terrain to change randomly, but we haven't created any terrains, what would happen?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 11, 2024, 06:06:15 pm
I'd fill in the blanks by defining a short list of generic, bland-ish, terrains. Examples would be 'Forest', 'Desert', 'Plains', 'Wetlands'.

A later Shift could redefine those terrains, of course, or you could try to do it all at once, at higher risk of running into the 'scope' and 'complexity' limits.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Crystalizedmire on February 11, 2024, 06:14:00 pm
Quote from: NUKE9.13 on February 11, 2024, 09:36:30 am
Shift: Shifting Battlefield
At the end of each Battle Phase, the terrain of the entire battlefield changes randomly.
Eg, changing from flat granite to dense woodland one turn, then changing to scattered islands the next, and so on.
+1
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: SamSpeeds on February 12, 2024, 05:36:50 am
Quote from: NUKE9.13 on February 11, 2024, 09:36:30 am
Shift: Shifting Battlefield
At the end of each Battle Phase, the terrain of the entire battlefield changes randomly.
Eg, changing from flat granite to dense woodland one turn, then changing to scattered islands the next, and so on.

+1


Quote from: Votebox

Shifting Battlefield: Crystalizedmire, SamSpeeds
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 12, 2024, 07:47:50 am
Quote from: Votebox
Shifting Battlefield: (3) Crystalizedmire, SamSpeeds, NUKE9.13
I stand by my original proposal.


E: Thinking forward to other potential Shifts we could employ.
-Tech/Theme Shifts, such as "Gunpowder weapons exist now", or "Rune magic exists now". There are a lot of options in this category, and I would like to do one next turn (if Blue doesn't already do one this turn), though I have no real preference for what.
-Non-Combat Shifts, such as "Revision phase exists now", or "Designs cost [N] Dice to perform. You get [N+X] Dice per turn. You can spend extra dice on a design to make it easier, or save up to perform two designs in one turn"
-Combat Shifts, such as "There is now an aerial theatre that can be contested", or "Players are required to describe the tactics their forces employ"
-Les Buggereurs Risible Shifts, such as "All design proposals must be in haiku format", or "Several players from each team are put into a secret third team whose goals are determined by the GM"
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Crystalizedmire on February 13, 2024, 04:18:52 pm
Is mostly everyone happy with the shift?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Kashyyk on February 13, 2024, 05:13:46 pm
Quote from: Votebox
Shifting Battlefield: (4) Crystalizedmire, SamSpeeds, NUKE9.13, Kashyyk

Sure. It's less likely to be an overreach than my version.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Man of Paper on February 14, 2024, 09:33:06 pm
Bishop

The Bishop is a humanoid construct made of durable metacrystal. It moves at a brisk walk, and can communicate out to moderate distances. It has a complex intelligence allowing it to identify where it should best position itself. May direct other constructs and share information. Emits an aura that repairs and maintains like-colored constructs.

Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 15, 2024, 04:00:59 am
I was going to propose an almost identical Bishop unit myself.
Well, I don't want to do a Queen or King unit. And while there are dozens of alternative chess pieces, I think it would be safe to branch out into other board games.

Tophat
A construct designed to construct, the Tophat consists of a small horizontal circle with four legs and two arms. It can extrude blocks of metacrystal, which it can either feed into a Gate to speed up the generation of other units, or assemble into simple fortifications (or other simple structures). It has no offensive capabilities.


Edit: So, since Blue didn't do a theme Shift, I wrote one we could do next turn. It's sort of a reference to an Arms Race that Andrea ran a long time ago.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Kashyyk on February 15, 2024, 12:46:43 pm
Diamond
A construct in it's entity's color, made from thin sheets of hardened metacrystal with a floor reminiscent of (and thus causing the name) Diamond. It also has four low walls, enough to protect a standing occupant whilst allowing them to reach out and over as it hovers a foot or two in the air. Up to two Pawn/Knight sized constructs may ride a Diamond, with one commanding its movements.  This mobile and protected platform can be used to rapidly move passengers, or more likely, crush enemy constructs beneath it.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Man of Paper on February 15, 2024, 01:01:13 pm
Pawn Upgrade: En Passant A basic skill-based upgrade for the Pawns that slightly increases speed and emphasizes flanking and breakthrough actions without the need for direct input from a Rook.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 15, 2024, 01:05:54 pm
See, I'd rather do more utility-focused units, cos I figure we can Shift in a theme that allows for much more effective combat units next turn. I mean, I guess we could technically also shift into a supportive theme, but... shut up, your face is a supportive theme.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Kashyyk on February 15, 2024, 01:32:12 pm
The Tophat is probably the best design at the moment, as it lets us out scale them in production.

Of course any combat or support shift we do has to at least appear neutral, by dint of the "you can't target one side" rule.

Edit: A Shift to seed the Battlefield with "Resource Nodes" that we then immediately design something to harvest and use would be a fun way to play that, and add a strategic angle to the Battle Phase beyond "who can get more stabby first".
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 15, 2024, 02:06:43 pm
Quote from: Kashyyk on February 15, 2024, 01:32:12 pm
Of course any combat or support shift we do has to at least appear neutral, by dint of the "you can't target one side" rule.
To be clear, I meant a Shift that introduces more potential design space, as suggested in the core thread:
Quote
The bad news is, this makes Designs using materials that aren't metacrystal a bit difficult.

The good news is, you can Shift the game. If you want more things to work with than metacrystal, all you have to do is Shift that.
Such theme Shifts wouldn't favour one side, as both sides would be able to design units in the newly unlocked theme.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Quarque on February 16, 2024, 04:04:53 am
Adding a bishop to the arsenal is an obvious but classy move, I want it.
I do think the description needs "Colored according to the color of the faction it belongs to." because every piece so far has it. And something about damage. Being a healer is cool and all but a Bishop should also have some means of applying brute force. How about:

Quote
Bishop v2

The Bishop is a humanoid construct made of durable metacrystal. Colored according to the color of the faction it belongs to. It moves at a brisk walk, and can communicate out to moderate distances. It has a complex intelligence allowing it to identify where it should best position itself. May direct other constructs and share information. Wields a metacrystal giant wrench that it can use to deal moderate damage or repair like-colored constructs.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 16, 2024, 11:56:51 am
I don't think a Bishop should have offensive capabilities. Better to specialise in healing- not only because that makes it more likely to be a good healer, but also because ideally it won't ever be in combat, making combat strength a waste of Metacrystal.

Anyway, votebox time. As mentioned, I prefer doing support units this turn, and more combat-focused units next turn in a newly unlocked theme, thus my votes for the two pure-support proposals.
Quote from: Votebox
Bishop: (1) NUKE9.13
Tophat: (1) NUKE9.13
Diamond:
En-Passant:
Bishop v2:
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Kashyyk on February 16, 2024, 01:09:56 pm
Ah yes, I forgot about the early game extra designs. I fully support the Tophat, because something-something Logistics. However, I do want an offensive unit too, hence the Diamond. A Shock unit like that should be very effective on this flat and empty plane, and of the other terrains available, it'll still serve in some capacity. This should be a good way to steal some early Score Percentage.

Quote from: Votebox
Bishop: (1) NUKE9.13
Tophat: (2) NUKE9.13, Kashyyk
Diamond: (1) Kashyyk
En-Passant:
Bishop v2:
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Quarque on February 16, 2024, 01:58:42 pm
Spoiler: counterargument (click to show/hide)

Quote from: NUKE9.13 on February 16, 2024, 11:56:51 am
but also because ideally it won't ever be in combat, making combat strength a waste of Metacrystal.
The notion of a healer staying out of combat is idealistic, in my opinion.

Healers without self-defense mechanisms often become strategic liabilities. Such units must navigate the frontline to provide support, risking exposure to enemy attacks. That almost requires a special ability like flight or invisibility for evasion to work well. The consequence of losing a valuable healer to say, a stray pawn is a significant setback.

On the other hand, a healer equipped to handle skirmishes enhances its survivability and operational flexibility.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Man of Paper on February 16, 2024, 02:23:05 pm
Quote from: Votebox
Bishop: (2) NUKE9.13, MoP
Tophat: (3) NUKE9.13, Kashyyk, MoP
Diamond: (1) Kashyyk
En-Passant:
Bishop v2:


Counter-counter-counterpoint, or something:

We have a mob, flanker dps, and dps tank(?). We should get a healing main before we start doing any other cross-class stuff. Get the Medic before the Engineer (although in this case I'm voting to get both). A "split class" also has to deal with split attention - to continue the team-based fps analogies, giving average players Mercy in Overwatch vs Moira (when I played five years ago). All other things being equal, the mercy is going to provide more healing output so that the focused dps and tanks can do their things, while Moira is going to be looking at the enemy team as much as her own.

In a turn or two, when we have greater thematic flexibility from shifts and have the very basics covered, I'd be more than happy to do more functionally complex units. Strategically though, I feel like we're better served to make these basic crystal idiots, well, basic, until we get some support for "alternative development". Paladins or Clerics would be great if we pulled DnD or fantasy something, or hell, even to pull back to overwatch, an Ana-like sniper with smart bullets what heal friends and hurt enemies.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Quarque on February 16, 2024, 02:26:54 pm
Quote from: Man of Paper on February 16, 2024, 02:23:05 pm
basic crystal idiots
have a vote for making me laugh

Quote from: Votebox
Bishop: (3) NUKE9.13, MoP, Quarque
Tophat: (4) NUKE9.13, Kashyyk, MoP, Quarque
Diamond: (1) Kashyyk
En-Passant:
Bishop v2:
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Crystalizedmire on February 16, 2024, 03:24:58 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I want our most plentiful piece to have an improvement.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Quarque on February 16, 2024, 03:34:37 pm
actually agree, plus removing spoiler tags
Quote
Bishop: (4) NUKE9.13, MoP, Quarque, Crystalizedmire
Tophat: (3) NUKE9.13, Kashyyk, MoP
Diamond: (1) Kashyyk
En-Passant:(2) Crystalizedmire, Quarque
Bishop v2:
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 17, 2024, 03:50:00 pm
For reference, I'm not a fan of improving the pawns for two related reasons. The first being the previously mentioned 'would rather do combat stuff next turn, using a theme'. The second being that I don't think Pawns need to be more than cannon fodder- they're the boring starting generic units, not intended to be very effective. No matter our strategy, I don't see Pawns as being really important going forward.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 18, 2024, 10:37:08 pm
Design Phase 0000:


Quote from: Man of Paper on February 14, 2024, 09:33:06 pm
Bishop

The Bishop is a humanoid construct made of durable metacrystal. It moves at a brisk walk, and can communicate out to moderate distances. It has a complex intelligence allowing it to identify where it should best position itself. May direct other constructs and share information. Emits an aura that repairs and maintains like-colored constructs.

Bishop:
(3, 4) + 1 - 2 = 6

Your first red-colored Bishop emerges from your Gates, and greets your group of Rooks. It quickly becomes clear that it's the superior leader compared to your Rooks - while its movement, communication, and command capabilities are equal to that of the Rook, the Bishop actually augments the force it is stationed with. The Bishop's red glow of repair isn't all that long-ranged, nor is it fast, but it affects every one of your constructs within its radius, and damaged constructs may now be repaired instead of the damage they receive being permanent.

While one Bishop cannot self-repair, if two Bishops are in close proximity, they'll repair each other. Though it seems that multiple auras being layered atop each other provides no more benefit than a single aura does.

Sadly, its durable metacrystal form and the complexity of its repair aura generation do mean that it will remain at Low Usage.


Quote from: NUKE9.13 on February 15, 2024, 04:00:59 am
Tophat
A construct designed to construct, the Tophat consists of a small horizontal circle with four legs and two arms. It can extrude blocks of metacrystal, which it can either feed into a Gate to speed up the generation of other units, or assemble into simple fortifications (or other simple structures). It has no offensive capabilities.

Tophat:
(5, 4) = 9

The disk-like, red-colored Tophat isn't the most impressive thing physically. Even a Pawn could swiftly destroy one. Of course, it was never meant to be a combat construct. Under direction of one of your new Bishops, a set of Tophats extrude bricks of metacrystal. Construction metacrystal. The new substance is too heavy to use as armor or such, but it has more durability than fragile metacrystal - though not nearly as much as durable metacrystal.

The dull grey bricks allow you to create one of the simplest and yet most advantageous structures... Walls. Also, simple towers accessible via brick staircase, but those aren't the most useful when the only ranged construct you have is the Rook, and there's no complex terrain to obstruct vision. Of course, giving a leader a higher view of the battle is fairly effective.

The Tophat can also create bricks of fragile metacrystal and feed them into a Gate, but since the Gate isn't actually made to accept outside metacrystal sources, this isn't the most useful functionality, for now.

At the very least they're easy to produce. Full Usage.


Reversal Die: 2.

The force of chaos that is the Reversal Die does not strike this Design Phase.


Spoiler: Current Designs (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Man of Paper on February 20, 2024, 09:36:34 pm
Shift: Uno Reverse
The Reversal Die's roll pool is changed as follows: On a 1, the following combat phase will swap the initiative of Attacker/Defender. For example, a team besieging a fortress would find themselves defending the walls.

---

Kinda want to turn that one roll into a whole fun thing, but I get doing something to change the units/battlefield is probably more desirable.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Quarque on February 20, 2024, 10:32:42 pm
Shift: choking gates.

No one knows why the gates exist or how they work. Even more mysterious is why they suddenly start malfunctioning, as if something is choking the extradimensional source from where they were gating. Gates on both sides stop producing units and start vomiting purple goo instead.

(this should favor us because we have a way to prolong the life of existing units through healing and a non-gate source of metacrystal)
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 20, 2024, 11:17:46 pm
Shift: Open the Menagerie
There are cracks in reality. Sometimes, an animal will fall through. Sapient beings will too, but as far as the Zookeepers are concerned they can sort themselves out. Zookeepers are interdimensional beings who can sense animals falling into cracks in reality. They rescue these helpless beasts, and bring them to the Menagerie dimension; an entire dimension that acts as a wildlife sanctuary.
...which is getting full. So any Entity that can produce the necessary food (or set aside enough Pawns to produce it) to feed them can now purchase animals from the Menagerie. Whether you want faithful warhounds, dashing cavalry, or voltaic whales, the Menagerie has it all. So long as it isn't sapient, any species in the multiverse can be found there, from the mundane to the mystical.


Some big beastie to crash through their lines and bowl over their Bulwarks, perhaps? Not quite as useful at tearing down walls (although not inherently favouring either side).
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Man of Paper on February 20, 2024, 11:19:16 pm
Ooh, I'd like to build up to pushing that shift (Quarque's, I got ninjaposted) in a couple turns, do enough to hold our ground while building up infrastructure and then hit em with a turn of oopsiedoodles. I think it'd be doubly good to hold off on that one since there isn't gonna be any ground actually changing hands for another combat phase, and that's a big one-turn slap.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Kashyyk on February 21, 2024, 02:31:41 am
Hmm... whilst I'm still happy with our designs last turn, I think we would've lost Progress. We'll need a way to deal with those Wizards.

Shift: Split Attentions
During the design phase, instead of doing a singular (Major) Design, an Entity can choose to do two Lesser Designs. Smaller in scope, and with penalties attached for making "new" things, Lesser Designs are ideal for editing an already existing unit.

Shift: Raw Crystal
With the shifting of Terrain, small nodes of Raw Metacrystal can be found in clusters scattered across the battlefield. With time and effort it can be extracted, processed and moulded into units.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Man of Paper on February 21, 2024, 02:40:38 am
Raw Crystal and some sort of farming unit could be fun, and would play into setting up for the nasty gate turn if we go that route.

Make em Raw Crystal Blossoms and we could have the “farming” unit be crystal bees. Crystals are seeded just like plants, so it makes perfect sense!
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Quarque on February 21, 2024, 03:18:32 am
Quote from: Man of Paper on February 20, 2024, 11:19:16 pm
Ooh, I'd like to build up to pushing that shift (Quarque's, I got ninjaposted) in a couple turns, do enough to hold our ground while building up infrastructure and then hit em with a turn of oopsiedoodles. I think it'd be doubly good to hold off on that one since there isn't gonna be any ground actually changing hands for another combat phase, and that's a big one-turn slap.
:D

I think both Raw Crystal and the menagerie could be used to build up to it. Bonus points for menagerie because random cows falling from the sky is funny as hell.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Kashyyk on February 21, 2024, 03:37:51 am
Obviously it's improved if we do Raw Crystal, but I'd like to do the following design this turn (alongside a combat one to deal with the Wizards). Although I really don't like that Reversal Shift, so I'm tempted to write a Shift to cancel it.

Design: Cauldron
A large hollow creation of Dark Red, the Cauldron is unintelligent but can be directed to amble slowly on three stubby legs. When stationary, allied Units can cast any available Metacrystal pieces into the Cauldron (be it Raw, neutral Grey, Red, or even captured Blue), and then activate the Primary Function, bringing the gathered Metacrystal into a mouldable state, and colouring it Red. Finally, this Crystal can be extruded into whatever form the controller desires just like a Gate.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Quarque on February 21, 2024, 03:56:12 am
Quote from: Kashyyk on February 21, 2024, 02:31:41 am
Hmm... whilst I'm still happy with our designs last turn, I think we would've lost Progress. We'll need a way to deal with those Wizards.
I would like to spend one design in the next phase on a heavy duty combat unit. To counter the wizards / bulwarks and the units they design this turn at least somewhat.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: NUKE9.13 on February 21, 2024, 04:49:02 am
Quote from: Quarque on February 21, 2024, 03:56:12 am
Quote from: Kashyyk on February 21, 2024, 02:31:41 am
Hmm... whilst I'm still happy with our designs last turn, I think we would've lost Progress. We'll need a way to deal with those Wizards.
I would like to spend one design in the next phase on a heavy duty combat unit. To counter the wizards / bulwarks and the units they design this turn at least somewhat.
My Menagerie suggestion is intended to lead into that. I don't want to do an artillery-esque design if we can help it, cos if there's a switcheroo, they'd be able to destroy our walls with it. I mean, they can still design artillery by themselves, and it's only a 1/6 chance... but still, I'd prefer a solution that only works for us. I figure heavy cavalry (in whatever format) is suitable for breaking through to Wizards, but not suitable for breaking down walls.

Edit: Votebox.
Quote
Uno Reverse:
choking gates:
Open the Menagerie: (1) NUKE9.13
Split Attentions:
Raw Crystal:
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Quarque on March 05, 2024, 05:35:55 pm
Quote from: votebox
Uno Reverse:
choking gates:
Open the Menagerie: (1) NUKE9.13
Split Attentions:
Raw Crystal: (1) Quarque
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: NUKE9.13 on March 06, 2024, 02:19:07 pm
Bear in mind that if neither of us do a shift that enables more interesting units, we're gonna have to design two generic units next phase.
...also bear in mind, people other than Quarque, that this game needs active participants.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Kashyyk on March 06, 2024, 05:26:25 pm
Quote from: votebox
Uno Reverse:
choking gates:
Open the Menagerie: (2) NUKE9.13, Kashyyk
Split Attentions:
Raw Crystal: (1) Quarque

Getting back into the swing of things. I'm still fond of the idea for Raw Crystal Nodes, but the Menagerie does sound fun.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: NUKE9.13 on March 08, 2024, 02:12:33 am
Okay so I misunderstood what Fallacy was going for with this game, rendering the Menagerie borderline useless for now. Whoops.

Fortunately Blue also did a Shift that lets us design more interesting things. We should probably do one logistical design and one that makes use of the new elements. We probably shouldn’t even bother to ask for mercenaries this turn.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Quarque on March 08, 2024, 02:26:37 am
Quote from: NUKE9.13 on March 08, 2024, 02:12:33 am
Okay so I misunderstood what Fallacy was going for with this game, rendering the Menagerie borderline useless for now. Whoops.
Less useful in the short term, but better in the long term.

I think a queen could serve as both a heavy combat unit as well as a complex intelligent negotiator?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Quarque on March 08, 2024, 06:47:54 am
Quote from: NUKE9.13 on March 08, 2024, 02:12:33 am
Okay so I misunderstood what Fallacy was going for with this game, rendering the Menagerie borderline useless for now. Whoops.
After rereading the rules for the Menagerie I think that it could start to pay off pretty quickly, because it seems we're allowed to do an additional design on top of the two designs we normally get:
Quote
Mechanically, each faction may make one Mercenary Request per Design Phase to one Mercenary faction, of which there is currently only the Menagerie.

Quote from: NUKE9.13 on March 08, 2024, 02:12:33 am
Fortunately Blue also did a Shift that lets us design more interesting things. We should probably do one logistical design and one that makes use of the new elements. We probably shouldn’t even bother to ask for mercenaries this turn.
I am not convinced that any design using the new elements necessarily yields better results for us. It will increase the difficulty of the roll in return for uncertain gains, see the new rules for designs:

Quote
(NEW) Designs may also incorporate one or more of the Core Elements - Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Electricity, and Natura. Designs utilizing the Core Elements tend to be more complex and difficult to create than metacrystal-only designs, and while the creation of lifeforms using Natura is entirely possible, such lifeforms will need sustenance. Natura also resists the other Core Elements being used in the same Design as it, though it will tolerate metacrystal.
It will be extremely difficult to create an animate construct utilizing the Core Elements that is not either wholly biological using Natura, or possessing of a metacrystal core.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Quarque on March 08, 2024, 07:10:44 am
King
The King is a humanoid construct made of durable metacrystal. Colored according to the color of the faction it belongs to. It moves at a slow walk, and can communicate out to the entire battlefield. It has a very complex intelligence allowing it to coordinate high level strategy with other intelligent constructs and share information among them, usually delegating the coordination of local tactics to them. It is specialized in negotiating with extradimensional beings.
Only one King exists at a time. It always attempts to stay far away from the frontlines and is extremely resistant to ranged attacks and magic.

Queen
The Queen is a humanoid construct made of extremely durable metacrystal. Colored according to the color of the faction it belongs to. It moves at great speed and may communicate at short to moderate distances. Complex intelligence, may direct other constructs and share information. Armed with a metacrystal great spear that deals a thundering shock with every blow, which will stun even the mightiest foes. Less mighty foes will be slain outright.
A pawn that has shown great valor in combat may be rebuilt to become a queen.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: NUKE9.13 on March 08, 2024, 09:40:04 am
Quote from: Quarque on March 08, 2024, 06:47:54 am
Quote from: NUKE9.13 on March 08, 2024, 02:12:33 am
Okay so I misunderstood what Fallacy was going for with this game, rendering the Menagerie borderline useless for now. Whoops.
After rereading the rules for the Menagerie I think that it could start to pay off pretty quickly, because it seems we're allowed to do an additional design on top of the two designs we normally get:
Quote
Mechanically, each faction may make one Mercenary Request per Design Phase to one Mercenary faction, of which there is currently only the Menagerie.
Yeah, but if we botch negotiations we get blacklisted for a while. So it might be best to wait until we have a negotiator on hand before trying.

Anyway. I wrote a thing, although I'm not totally happy with it. I don't know if it's viable, but even if it is it seems rather bland. I was aiming for a production facility that can be secured behind our walls, so that we build up resources as a battle drags out... but this isn't it, I think. Still gonna share it, both to ask Fallacy if it is viable, and to maybe inspire someone else.

Modular Multifarm
The Modular Multifarm consists of a metacrystal silo with a number of crop fields around it. It requires an overseer with at least Complex intelligence, and a number of Pawns to work the fields.
The silo serves three main functions:
-It modifies a Pawn's spear into a farming tool (useless for combat, necessary for farming). For reasons unknown it also produces straw hats, which serve absolutely no purpose but make the Pawns working there look different. 
-It stores harvested crops, and processes them- usually into food, although crops could potentially be grown that have other uses.
-It generates seeds, fertiliser, and water. To do so, it must be provided with blocks of raw Natura, Earth, and... Water produced by an Elemental Gate.
The fields are empowered so as to accelerate the whole growth process, so that crops may be planted, grow, and be harvested in a single battle.
The Modular Multifarm can produce several different seed types. For now, Mushrooms are the only viable option- they will happily grow without light, although in more barren environments a layer of fertiliser must be laid down before planting. Programming a new seed type is relatively simple, and should be bundled in with designs that require the crop in question.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Man of Paper on March 08, 2024, 05:08:29 pm
The Red Dwarf

An extremely powerful red metacrystal artifact attuned to FIRE that emits immense levels of light and heat, enough to provide for life anyways. The Red Dwarf is a unique “unit” that can be deployed to one region at a time, should reality decide to divide the battlefield into multiple separate fronts for some reason.

While passively capable of acting as a sun (or second+ sun should another be present), The Red Dwarf is also capable of focusing light into beam attacks that are inaccurate (it’s so far away) but devastating (the sun is a deadly lazer)

Not actually a fan of curry.

——

Cannibal Crystals

Red humanoid metacrystal that really, really hates blue metacrystal. When these entities defeat a foe in battle they voraciously devour their bodies. Cannibal Crystals can “process” raw materials when used domestically, as their body will attempt to separate, for example, stone from ore should those be things we’d need.

The only material they cannot process is blue metacrystal. Instead of passing the blue crystal, Cannibal Crystals begin to turn a purple hue and fly into a blue-directed rage. A raging Cannibal Crystal will continue to rip and tear and devour until it reaches a 50/50 perfect purple split, wherein they will promptly explode.

Cannibal Crystals can target individual units, but they are equally content raging against anything made of blue metacrystal until they explode.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 08, 2024, 10:45:42 pm
Quote from: NUKE9.13 on March 08, 2024, 09:40:04 am
Still gonna share it, both to ask Fallacy if it is viable, and to maybe inspire someone else.

Viable as a Design, yes, but maybe impractical in some ways.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Kashyyk on March 09, 2024, 05:25:20 am
How long are these battle phases normally? Do things get decided in a single pitched combat with whatever units our side start with, or does it play out more like a RTS game?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 09, 2024, 08:18:33 am
It's fairly longer-scale. While quantifying time when there is no day-night cycle or whatnot is kinda difficult to do, the closest comparison I have to our own timeframe is 'a week', incorporating skirmishes, clashes, pushes, sieges, and so on. I'll describe slices of that in each Battle Phase.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: NUKE9.13 on March 09, 2024, 11:50:00 am
Oh. That’s not what I assumed. I was thinking typical AR timeframes of between a month and a year.
Okay so production/logistics designs are out. At least until we Shift to a longer timeframe.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 10, 2024, 04:20:12 pm
Got any votes in mind? Deadline is in a few hours.

In the future, I'll probably make the deadlines a bit longer, especially when it's a weekend, but we're working with this for now.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Man of Paper on March 10, 2024, 04:41:39 pm
Quote from: bREaDbox
The Red Dwarf: (1) MoP
Cannibal Crystals: (1) MoP

Voting for myself until anyone makes an argument in favor of anything else.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Quarque on March 10, 2024, 05:21:44 pm
At least one design needs to be a badass combat unit. This could be either the Red Dwarf or the queen.

Now, does the Red Dwarf contain a metacrystal core? The design doesn't mention it. But Fallacy said that designs using the new elemental rules pretty much don't work without one (unless nature).
So I really think it should be mentioned in the design that the dwarf has one. Even then, I am not sure the extra complexity from having a metacrystal core unit will be worth it. That said, if no one else votes for the queen I'll support the Dwarf.

About the King, I really would like to gain menagerie units from next turn onward. If we go dwarf/queen plus cannibal, we can't really do that (and in fact they might be the only ones getting menagerie units).

Quote from: bREaDbox
The Red Dwarf: (1) MoP
Cannibal Crystals: (1) MoP
King: (1) Quarque
Queen: (1) Quarque
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 11, 2024, 06:10:26 am
Quote from: Quarque on March 10, 2024, 05:21:44 pm
Now, does the Red Dwarf contain a metacrystal core? The design doesn't mention it. But Fallacy said that designs using the new elemental rules pretty much don't work without one (unless nature).

The exact wording is pretty important here.

Quote
It will be extremely difficult to create an animate construct utilizing the Core Elements that is not either wholly biological using Natura, or possessing of a metacrystal core.

The limitation specifically applies to animate constructs. You aren't limited to Designing animate constructs.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Quarque on March 11, 2024, 06:52:42 am
oh, I see

After rereading the red dwarf design more carefully, I fear it is too inaccurate to hit wizards, but perfect for them to destroy buildings if it ever switches hands?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: NUKE9.13 on March 11, 2024, 08:11:26 am
Quote from: Quarque on March 11, 2024, 06:52:42 am
After rereading the red dwarf design more carefully, I fear it is too inaccurate to hit wizards, but perfect for them to destroy buildings if it ever switches hands?
Agreed. I think it would be better to design something with an area-of-effect attack; not great for busting fortifications, quite suitable for wiping out fragile enemies.

Maybe something like
Quote
Flame Tower
A tower (made from construction metacrystal), topped with a large Fire Crystal. Lobs fireballs at enemies from medium range, which have little impact damage, but cover the surroundings in flames capable of burning through fragile metacrystal. Tower is not autonomous, so must be controlled by a friendly intelligence. Not mobile, must be assembled from prefabbed pieces, similar to a Gate. Passively provides modest illumination to surroundings, for what that's worth.

Obviously synergises with fortifications. Uses the Fire element for better area-of-effect damage-over-time impact.

Quote from: bREaDbox
The Red Dwarf: (1) MoP
Cannibal Crystals: (1) MoP
King: (2) Quarque, NUKE9.13
Queen: (1) Quarque
Flame Tower: (1) NUKE9.13
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Quarque on March 11, 2024, 11:43:38 am
Quote from: bREaDbox
The Red Dwarf: (1) MoP
Cannibal Crystals: (1) MoP
King: (2) Quarque, NUKE9.13
Queen: (0)
Flame Tower: (2) NUKE9.13, Quarque
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Crystalizedmire on March 11, 2024, 12:03:59 pm
Quote from: bREaDbox
The Red Dwarf: (1) MoP
Cannibal Crystals: (2) MoP, Crystalizedmire
King: (2) Quarque, NUKE9.13
Queen: (0)
Flame Tower: (3) NUKE9.13, Quarque, Crystalizedmire
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: NUKE9.13 on March 12, 2024, 03:43:35 pm
I'm gonna point out that missing out on mercenaries is bad action economy. And that we aren't able to gain or lose territory yet, so there's no reason to prioritise combat-focused units.
Not that the King would be useless in combat. A high-level commander will probably have a substantial impact. Whilst also letting us request mercenaries effectively.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Kashyyk on March 14, 2024, 01:03:56 pm
Is it possible to use the King for a Mercenary Action on the turn we design it? Even if not, Bishops and Knights are of Complex Intelligence, so we're not taking a big malus to our attempt.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Red Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: NUKE9.13 on March 14, 2024, 02:15:26 pm
Quote from: Kashyyk on March 14, 2024, 01:03:56 pm
Is it possible to use the King for a Mercenary Action on the turn we design it? Even if not, Bishops and Knights are of Complex Intelligence, so we're not taking a big malus to our attempt.
We need a "(very complex) or (specialized complex)" intelligence unit to negotiate at the +2 level.