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Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Topic started by: FallacyofUrist on February 11, 2024, 02:20:52 am

Title: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 11, 2024, 02:20:52 am
The blue-colored Entity pondered, a thousand threads of thought coalescing into a single conclusion in an instant. They would simply have to teach the red-colored Entity the true meaning of the Arms Race.

They split, personality-fragments teeming around them, whispering to them. What to Shift. What to Design.

They decided that they would be victorious, and the red Entity would see the error of their ways.

They began their creation, metacrystal taking shape and form and gaining purpose. They would have no need to directly strike the other Entity, since they would conquer this battlefield.



Core Thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=182402.new#new).



Spoiler: Current Designs (click to show/hide)



It is the first Shift Phase. What would you like to change about the game? I'll recommend that you use a vote box to keep track of the votes.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 11, 2024, 03:04:53 am
Shift: Every team will have a certain proportion of saboteurs chosen by the mod. Saboteurs get points and prestige when their respective teams perform poorly. The rest of a team gets a bonus if a saboteur is correctly identified, at which point that player becomes a normal player and someone else becomes a saboteur. Of course, if a saboteur admits to being a saboteur, the bonus is forfeit, so players can't just surrender immediately for bonuses.

There, now it's mafia.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 11, 2024, 10:51:56 am
Blue da be do~ Magic for you blue da be do~ Magic for you~

The Effectiveness of Designs is boosted by how closely they adhere to the Entity's viewpoint. Going against the grain will result in the opposite effect. Exciting Magic for Blue, boring world war Tech for Red.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Jerick on February 11, 2024, 03:52:26 pm
Quote from: from the existing rules
Shifts that discriminate between teams, are too complex by the moderator's standards, or are too grand in scale or scope, will be altered beyond what was intended. This will be focused on making them more reasonable.
Sorry Tric but I don't think that shift will fly. It'll need to affect both teams the same.

My proposal for a chaos inducing, salt producing shift;
Quote from: Shift
At the end of the design phase the moderator will roll a d6. On a 6 both teams receive the designs the other team designed instead of their own.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 11, 2024, 03:58:54 pm
Quote from: from the existing rules
Shifts that discriminate between teams, are too complex by the moderator's standards, or are too grand in scale or scope, will be altered beyond what was intended. This will be focused on making them more reasonable.
Sorry Tric but I don't think that shift will fly. It'll need to affect both teams the same.

My proposal for a chaos inducing, salt producing shift;
Quote from: Shift
At the end of the design phase the moderator will roll a d6. On a 6 both teams receive the designs the other team designed instead of their own.
It does though. If we do Tech stuff, it suffers. If we do Magic stuff, it's better.
 If they do Tech stuff, it's better, but if they do Magic stuff, it suffers. Prevents traitorous Magitech.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 11, 2024, 04:01:24 pm
I think we should be more ambitious.

Things like...
Shift: There's a third faction controlled by the moderator (go ahead and find some players somewhere else if you want to make it more authentic) which may randomly interact with either main faction in unpredictable ways.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 11, 2024, 04:08:12 pm

Quote from: Shiftbox
Reverse 6: TricMagic
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Thanatos Russ on February 13, 2024, 12:31:07 pm
We should do something cool.

Quote
Named Heroes: these are Unique and powerful units that can be improved by designs added to them. They get stronger as they fight

Quote from: vote box

Named heroes: Thanatos Russ (1)


Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Jerick on February 13, 2024, 03:39:45 pm
Quote from: votebox
Named heroes:(1) Thanatos Russ
Reverse 6:(2) Tric Magic, Jerick
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 13, 2024, 04:17:11 pm
Quote from: votebox
Named heroes:(2) Thanatos Russ, Failbird
Reverse 6:(2) Tric Magic, Jerick

Not particularly against the Reverse 6, I think it could honestly lead to more creativity, just like the idea of Named Heroes. If the votes haven't swung one way or the other by Wednesday I'll probably shift(heh) my vote.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 13, 2024, 04:52:48 pm
I don't really get the impression that named heroes aren't already something we could Design. Maybe we should ask Fallacy first?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Thanatos Russ on February 13, 2024, 06:09:48 pm
Named heroes basically mechanically makes a unique unit that is automatically stronk.
It also does not need more effort or players and I don't like sabotage
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 13, 2024, 06:39:49 pm
Hm, think about it this way. Designs exist within the space of the mechanics. That's not to say every design needs a unique mechanical foundation, because designing itself is a mechanic.

So sure, you can design a named hero individual unit without a Named Heroes mechanic. The results might be lacking in comparison to such a design that has a specific special mechanic bolstering it, though.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 13, 2024, 08:37:30 pm
Hey so, since the two teams have no way of knowing what the other team is Shifting, what do you plan on doing if the two teams Shift mechanics that are either
1. Incredibly similar if not the same, or
2. So contradictory as to be practically mutually exclusive?

Like, say, if we were to make a Shift that says there is only one combat theater, but the Red team was to make a Shift that says there are three lanes of three combat theaters? Or if both teams were to Shift in resource mechanics with the same resources?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 13, 2024, 08:40:48 pm
At that point I would jumble the mechanics together and see what comes out on the other end. You'd probably get some kind of 'compromise' mechanic that melds the two.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 13, 2024, 08:50:48 pm
Also I kinda like how we're really just hoping that Red Team Shifts in some form of actual battlefield to fight in. Because I don't quite know how to envision the first turn if no such thing is done.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Thanatos Russ on February 14, 2024, 06:13:57 pm
Battlefields are too vanilla
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 14, 2024, 08:28:26 pm
Just a reminder that the soft deadline for the first Shift Phase is in 30 minutes, and making a selection before the soft deadline awards a +1 bonus to your first Design.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 14, 2024, 08:47:09 pm
Hmmm...
Quote from: votebox
Named heroes:(1) Thanatos Russ,
Reverse 6:(3) Tric Magic, Jerick, Failbird
Worst case scenario, it does a funny on turn one and either us or the Red Team Shift it away the very next turn. I figure it's worth that minor risk to get a +1

I wouldn't quite say the vote is decided since it's a 2 vote lead and we have two members who haven't voted, but one hasn't posted at all and the other hasn't given a vote for the entire span of the box so I guess it works?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 14, 2024, 09:38:00 pm
And so it begins.

Rook to Bishop
A humanoid construct made of energized metacrystal. Colored a deep version of the faction it belongs to.  Moves at a brisk walk, and may communicate at moderate to long distances. Complex intelligence, may direct other constructs and share information. Emits long-ranged energy beams that deal minor damage, over a wide area, and can provide quick supporting fire.
Armies are balanced between their parts. Where one may need walls of soldiers, or simple numbers, there still needs to be an answer to problems in battle,. A Bishop's magical ai can provide a perfect counter to numbers.

Fairy Gate
A wide ring of metacrystals placed upon the ground, energy jumping between the crystals. Colored a very deep version of the color of the faction it belongs to. May be controlled by other constructs. Allows teleportation between all other Gate-types.. Can be assembled quickly, but fragile. Disassembly is impossible without breaking it.
The Fairy Gates are said to lead to Underhill, where time is a suggestion, and the Fey rule. They use them to travel between their world and ours.


Fairy Gates for the bonus, Bishops totake avantage of the open area. Speed is no issue when you can appear suddenly.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 14, 2024, 10:03:48 pm
Quote from: Reaver
A large(about twice the height of a pawn upright), inhuman construct made of durable metacrystal, colored according to the faction it belongs to. Moves at a slow walk when upright, or a sprint on all fours. Moderate Intelligence, can follow moderately advanced directions, but cannot move in formation due to feral mind. Its forelimbs end in metacrystal scythes that deal moderate damage in broad sweeping slashes.
A solid crowd-clearing shock troop, sprints ahead of the army and then gets up and starts cleaving gashes into the front line when it reaches them. Will serve to massively soften the enemy force before our army proper even engages.

Quote from: Bulwark
A large humanoid construct made of durable metacrystal, colored according to the faction it belongs to. Moves at a brisk walk and in solid formations. Complex intelligence, may follow complex directions and move in complex formations. Wields a pair of metacrystal tower shields that deal minor damage but have a high likelihood of blocking attacks, especially in proper formation.
A living wall. In theory while the Reavers are charging in and opening holes in the enemies lines, the Bulwarks would be marching in front and guarding our front lines from Rook beams or whatever other ranged weapons the enemy potentially develop.


Best case scenario with the Shift: our rolls fuck up and theirs are great, then the reversal rolls a 6. Worst case scenario is the inverse; we succeed, they fail, and the 6 is rolled.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 15, 2024, 08:42:49 am
Honestly too melee focused. Where is the psuedomagic?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 15, 2024, 09:57:05 am
I'm primarily taking things easy this turn to do some difficulty gauging. Once I know about how difficult something like the Reaver, which has so many features compared to our starter forces, would be, I'll be more confident going for more advanced stuff.

Also, I think I'd prefer we get a dedicated builder unit before making any additional static structures.

I also think the straight upgrade from Rook to Bishop is rather obvious and somewhat boring. I'd prefer to do something more unique with the name Bishop than just upgrade the Rook, if we do anything with the name.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 15, 2024, 11:23:20 am
Fair, but simple is a good thing on the first design. Easy bonuses, can get a lead on a foe.

I'm also looking at the battlefield. It's flat. No cover besides what you make. Fairy Gates can allow troops to transport far faster to the front/midline while Gates are set up in the back to produce the troops.

Advance Sprite
A fae-like being being made out of metacrystal, it's capable of swift movement and is capable of complex operations, able to store and build immobile structures from parts via attached floating carts shaped like flower buds. They are capable of working together in courts, and serve as the backbone of our armies supporting structures. (Need Fairy Gate)
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 16, 2024, 02:19:52 pm
Should we agree to roll the dice, or can we come to a voite?

Quote from: Voicebox
Bishop ():
Fairy Gate ():
-Primary?: TricMagic
Reaver ():
-Primary?: TricMagic
Bulwark ():
-Primary?:
Roll the Dice, let them fall where they may ():
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 16, 2024, 02:29:36 pm
I would personally have liked to stick with the vaguely chessy theme, but I'm not sure that interpretation of a bishop is really worth it.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 16, 2024, 02:31:56 pm
I'm open to alternate Bishop suggestions.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 16, 2024, 08:35:44 pm
So here's the thing, I do like the idea of going for Chess themes, but I feel like when they've already been handed to both teams like this I'm not a fan.

Because you see, it's too obvious. If we get to the next turn and Red team doesn't have their own Bishop design, then I'd be up for doing more Chess stuff, but I just worry that it's going to get real annoying for us to discuss and Fallacy to write battles for when both teams have a completely different unit with the exact same name.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 16, 2024, 10:15:18 pm
Fear is the mindkiller. Though It'd be silly to be caught with the Wizard chess piece when they have a Bishop.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 16, 2024, 11:38:42 pm
Fear is the mindkiller. Though It'd be silly to be caught with the Wizard chess piece when they have a Bishop.
On the contrary I'd much rather have THE WIZARD
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Jerick on February 17, 2024, 06:03:43 am
If we're not doing chessy stuff this is my proposal;
Quote from: Swarmer
Swarmers are small, fast, skittering, six-legged assemblies of metacrystal. They have a pincer on their front and their rear is a device used to make other swarmers. Swarmers can only make swarmers (or other very similar swarmer vairents we design in the future) but do so rather rapidly allowing for quick, exponential growth of their numbers. When approaching an enemy they will attempt to either burrow into or latch onto them. Once secured they'll begin to vibrate and resonate quickly detonating in an explosion of crystal shards and released energy


Quote from: Voicebox
Bishop ():
Fairy Gate ():
-Primary?: TricMagic
Reaver ():
-Primary?: TricMagic
Bulwark (1): Jerick
-Primary?:
Swarmer (1): Jerick
Roll the Dice, let them fall where they may ():
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 17, 2024, 11:17:56 am
Fear is the mindkiller. Though It'd be silly to be caught with the Wizard chess piece when they have a Bishop.
On the contrary I'd much rather have THE WIZARD
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Wizard
A purple clothed crystal being specialized in metamagical flow. The cloth acts as conductor for magical energy, allowing the piece to build up a large amount of energy into a compressed sphere before lobbing it at foes. Like most compressed energy when containment fails, it explodes. Violently. Comes with a cool staff topped in a cyan blue crystal filled with the compression spell formula. Fights from the mid/backlines ordering others to protect it. Low Usage.

Quote from: Voicebox
Bishop ():
Fairy Gate ():
-Primary?:
Reaver ():
-Primary?:
Bulwark (2): Jerick, TricMagic
-Primary?:
Swarmer (1): Jerick
The Wizard (1): TricMagic
-Primary?: TricMagic
Roll the Dice, let them fall where they may ():
One Wizard for your wizarding needs.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 17, 2024, 03:26:17 pm
I like the thought of the Wizard + Bulwark combo. Though I don't know if we actually have cloth, squishy high-damage Caster hiding behind a big tank is a tried and true combo. I'll still vote for the Reaver(will vote when I get home) but I'll switch to Wizard if nobody has sided with me when the soft deadline starts to close in.

Also a concept I want to
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 17, 2024, 03:46:55 pm
Deign phase is usually when you design things. Given the lack of a revision phase. (In which you revise stuff you already have.)
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 17, 2024, 05:06:36 pm
Didn't realize I didn't finish what I was saying last time before posting, guess I got caught up in something and just hit post. I was gonna say that a concept I want to Shift next turn is the addition of some typical fantasy 'elements' for magic+monster purposes.

Also, Fallacy did explicitly say that designs made using non-metacrystal materials(and presumably more complex 'magic' than "throw energy at it") are more difficult unless you Shift those materials/concepts into being.


Edit: remembered to vote
Quote from: Voicebox
Bishop ():
Fairy Gate ():
-Primary?:
Reaver (1): Failbird
-Primary?: Failbird
Bulwark (3): Jerick, TricMagic, Failbird
-Primary?:
Swarmer (1): Jerick
The Wizard (1): TricMagic
-Primary?: TricMagic
Roll the Dice, let them fall where they may ():
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 17, 2024, 06:40:59 pm
Fair. Will change back to just explosions then, cut the beam. Cause when you stuff enough into something, it tends to explode. And AoE is a good tool to have.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 17, 2024, 07:16:55 pm
Also, another unit idea I really want to try to do something with.

Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Thanatos Russ on February 18, 2024, 02:23:46 am
Supporting tric may as well gib majority
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 18, 2024, 09:50:23 am
Supporting tric may as well gib majority
Quote from: Voicebox
Bishop ():
Fairy Gate ():
-Primary?:
Reaver (1): Failbird
-Primary?: Failbird
Bulwark (4): Jerick, TricMagic, Failbird, Thanatos Russ
-Primary?:
Swarmer (1): Jerick
The Wizard (2): TricMagic, Thanatos Russ
-Primary?: TricMagic
Roll the Dice, let them fall where they may ():
Thank ye for thy contribution to magical might and walls.
As a side note, don't need to put your full name in votebox. Russ or Thanatos would do.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 18, 2024, 12:13:44 pm
Okay I've got 3 more hours until I get home, I'll swap my votes then

Edit:
Quote from: Voicebox
Bishop ():
Fairy Gate ():
-Primary?:
Reaver ():
-Primary?:
Bulwark (4): Jerick, TricMagic, Failbird, Thanatos Russ
-Primary?:
Swarmer (1): Jerick
The Wizard (3): TricMagic, Thanatos Russ, Failbird
-Primary?: TricMagic, Failbird
Roll the Dice, let them fall where they may ():
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: FallacyofUrist on February 18, 2024, 10:37:33 pm
Design Phase 0000:



Quote from: Bulwark
A large humanoid construct made of durable metacrystal, colored according to the faction it belongs to. Moves at a brisk walk and in solid formations. Complex intelligence, may follow complex directions and move in complex formations. Wields a pair of metacrystal tower shields that deal minor damage but have a high likelihood of blocking attacks, especially in proper formation.

Bulwark:
(5, 2) = 7

The Bulwark stands among your Rooks, its metacrystal shining blue. Much like your other units, it has a humanoid form. Its legs are optimized enough to allow it to move at a brisk walk, despite its relative bulk. The fact that it's fully made from durable-pattern metacrystal does mean that it's not exactly the easiest thing to produce, though. It does not communicate, but it does listen, and the three Bulwarks you've produced as a test easily align themselves into a shieldwall. They have no manipulation digits at the ends of their arms, instead they carry a pair of shields.

Two things are very apparent. The Bulwark will be very difficult to destroy (at least without innovation in destructive methods), and it can't be produced in great enough numbers to make up any sort of bulk force. Low Usage.



The Wizard
A purple clothed crystal being specialized in metamagical flow. The cloth acts as conductor for magical energy, allowing the piece to build up a large amount of energy into a compressed sphere before lobbing it at foes. Like most compressed energy when containment fails, it explodes. Violently. Comes with a cool staff topped in a cyan blue crystal filled with the compression spell formula. Fights from the mid/backlines ordering others to protect it. Low Usage.

Wizard:
(6, 3) + 1 - 2 = 8

While metacrystal is malleable enough to form energy-channeling cloth, it's not exactly the simplest process. Your new Wizard stands humanoid, shining blue underneath the purple crystal-cloth you've opted to armor him in. It's not exactly programmed to move in formation, nor to cooperate with your other units. Instead, it specializes in one thing and one thing only. The Wizard specializes in destruction. When it lifts its stave tool and fully charges a destruction orb, it can leave behind a small crater in the blank granite of the base battlefield, leaving a few sacrificial Pawns in fragments. It seems likely that Knights and Rooks will fare better, though.

Considering the volatility of the energy it channels and compresses, it is likely that striking it while it is charging an attack will not end well. Your Rooks will ensure that it is well guarded - perhaps even by your new Bulwarks.

While it is not made of durable metacrystal, and thus its form is easier to produce, the complexity of the channeling cloth ensures that it will nonetheless be fairly costly to produce. Low Usage.



Reversal Die: 2.

The force of chaos that is the Reversal Die does not strike this Design Phase.



Spoiler: Current Designs (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Battle Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on February 19, 2024, 11:13:49 am
Cloth Shroud should at least make it simple to form alts. Also got an idea to use the stuff to form golems with a central core, using it as a conductor. Overall a very productive turn.

Bulwarks can have a lesser version. Keep the shield, standard metacrystal durability. Perhaps we should shift a Revision Phase into being?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Battle Phase, 0000
Post by: Failbird105 on February 19, 2024, 07:07:25 pm
Cloth Shroud should at least make it simple to form alts. Also got an idea to use the stuff to form golems with a central core, using it as a conductor. Overall a very productive turn.

Bulwarks can have a lesser version. Keep the shield, standard metacrystal durability. Perhaps we should shift a Revision Phase into being?

I think Revisions would be helpful. Especially because it'll allow us to adjust or fix things that the Reverse 6 might hand us.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Failbird105 on February 20, 2024, 09:28:12 pm
Alright, I don't have much time for idea-making right now, but I'm gonna say it before it potentially happens:

It will be hilarious if we design a structure-breaking unit, they design a structure-repairing unit, and we roll the 6.

We, with no Structures to repair, now get a repair unit and motivation to design structures next turn, while they, with no enemy structures to break, get just a basic artillery unit.

It'd be a worse deal for us overall, but still funny.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Jerick on February 21, 2024, 10:17:09 am
Well before designs we need to come up with a shift. How do people feel about inventing more resources?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on February 21, 2024, 10:39:53 am
Nanomachine bishops.

Shift: Revision Phase: A phase where alterations/improvements/fixes can be made to existing units. Max 2 revisions per phase on standard rolls.

As for ideas.

Vanguard: An upgraded pawn wielding an improved shield and spear based upon the Bulwark. The first line of defense.
Supporters: Units capable of providing buffs to aid allies.
Reavers: A good idea to boost offensive presence.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 21, 2024, 10:55:21 am
I'm just going to keep coming up with weird ideas.

Shift: Unvision Phase: In this phase, which takes place immediately after the battle phase, each team has the chance to choose a known enemy design to erase from existence. Choosing not to exercise this right applies a bonus to the possible progress gained by the team in the next battle phase.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Jerick on February 21, 2024, 01:28:22 pm
I'm a fan of weird ideas in general but Unvision phase seems like it'll result in a very unfun game. Both teams would be stuck with the most middling and crappy designs and when either side gets a good/useful design it'll be guaranteed to go poof.

How about this instead;
Quote from: Shift; Market Fluctuations
After the battle phase each team will choose a design (either their own or the enemy's) to either make one step cheaper or one step more expensive
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on February 21, 2024, 01:43:15 pm
Either of these results in pawns disappearing from exitance as threats.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Failbird105 on February 21, 2024, 01:47:02 pm
I'd say Pawns should be made exempt from either potential handicap, just so the two teams always at least have a basic fighting force.

I personally either want revisions, or a resource Shift. I'll make one of the latter when I get home in a couple hours.

Update:

Quote from: Shift: Elemental Foundations
Six Core elements, magical fundamentals from which to be built upon. Fire, Water(yes that includes ice), Earth(Everything from metal to soil), Air, Electricity, Natura(Biological matter and Life). All in balance around the elementally neutral base that is Metacrystal.

With their formation, the creation of non-Metacrystal things becomes dramatically simplified, provided they are reasonably within the bounds of the elements. However the elements are not unlimited. To create a fully animate construct will require one of two things:

1. A basis in the biology from Natura, which are capable of higher speed and thought with less difficulty, but resist large scale integration of other elements and can be killed with things such as blood loss or destruction of vital organs.(Theoretically starvation is also an issue, but it's not hard to just produce lumps of plant/meat matter to be fed on)
or
2. A Metacrystal core, providing far more elemental flexibility and possessing no biological failings, but causing greater limitations in mental and physiological complexity.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Jerick on February 21, 2024, 07:26:58 pm
Quote from: votey box
Revision Phase ()
Unvision Phase ()
Market Fluctuations ()
Elemental Foundations (1); Jerick
Voting for more complex materials for making more complex units.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Failbird105 on February 21, 2024, 09:44:53 pm
Quote from: votey box
Revision Phase ()
Unvision Phase ()
Market Fluctuations ()
Elemental Foundations (2); Jerick, Failbird
Yeah. I'll go for Revision Phase if we mostly-but-not-quite flub a design this turn and/or get handed one by the 6.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Maximum Spin on February 21, 2024, 10:09:47 pm
I would prefer something like:
Shift: Materia and Scavenge Phase
Teams now have access to materia which can be spent to improve designs. During the new scavenge phase, which takes place after the battle phase, teams gain materia based on the scavenging ability of each team's designs. Materia can come in as many types as the GM imagines; materia gained during a scavenge phase is themed after both the battlefield as it exists at that time, and the pieces that have fallen or any other effects which may have occurred during the preceding battle phase.

So now it's a whole minigame to get resources, and the random battlefield shift naturally ties into this.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on March 05, 2024, 02:23:20 pm
Quote from: Return da box
Revision Phase ()
Unvision Phase ()
Market Fluctuations ()
Elemental Foundations (2); Jerick, Failbird, TricMagic
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Shift Phase, 0001
Post by: Failbird105 on March 05, 2024, 11:25:44 pm
Well, now that the forum is back, I wanted to pitch a unit design idea for this Shift:

Stymphalian's. Large birds(Natura base) with powerful wing muscles, beaks sharpened to a spear-point, and both beak and bone alike reinforced with metal(Earth), though the bones have it in more trace amounts than the beak. They'd fight enemies by dive-bombing in coordinated strikes like a volley of arrows.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Jerick on March 08, 2024, 05:31:12 am
Those Stymphalian things are exactly the kind of thing we could be requesting from the Menagerie. So the question is do we make a negotiator or something to care and feed animals this turn at the risk of losing progress on the battlefront? Or do we ignore making that kind of infrastructure design, ignore future long run benefits to hit them harder now? I feel there's a good chance they'll make something to support animals this turn. Otherwise what's the point of making that shift?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Failbird105 on March 08, 2024, 06:19:28 am
Those Stymphalian things are exactly the kind of thing we could be requesting from the Menagerie. So the question is do we make a negotiator or something to care and feed animals this turn at the risk of losing progress on the battlefront? Or do we ignore making that kind of infrastructure design, ignore future long run benefits to hit them harder now? I feel there's a good chance they'll make something to support animals this turn. Otherwise what's the point of making that shift?
Yes but here's the thing: this world is currently not made to support the existence of long-term life like the Menagerie would want. We can feed them and give water, sure, but the lack of sunlight is going to be a big problem for most creatures. And the Stymphalian's in particular are the kind of creature where their main function is inherently sacrificial, they basically use themselves as living arrows and that means anything they're exposing themselves to anything they don't kill. If we design a creature we can at least be sure we'll have unrestricted use of it and that it can have metacrystal eyes for sunless sight.

We do still have two designs this turn IIRC, so we can make a negotiator and a combat unit anyway, but getting something from the Menagerie on this particular turn will be hard unless we do legitimately have a fairly good set-up.

Anyway this is all to say: we should prioritize getting creatures that don't care for sunlight from the Menagerie this turn(if any) until someone bothers to Shift in a Sun. Not ones who are repelled by Sunlight, but things like cave dwelling monsters that have no need for sunlight to navigate and hunt.

Honestly, making a sun(or facsimile of one) so as to improve the viability of living creatures without the need for metacrystal feels like it'll be an important Shift to make for almost ANY Mercenary group we might want to hire.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 09, 2024, 05:13:52 pm
Might want to propose and vote for some Designs, the soft deadline is tonight and the hard deadline is tomorrow.

In the future I might make the deadlines contain a bit more time, especially when it's a weekend.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0000
Post by: TricMagic on March 09, 2024, 05:31:46 pm
Quote from: Army Swarmer
Swarmers are fast, skittering, and winged six-legged insects of quarter a meter in length. They have compound eyes, a pincer on their front, and emits pheromones to work in concert with other insects. When approaching an enemy they will attempt to either burrow into or latch onto them. Once secured they'll begin to to tear into and burrow into the target. They are capable of self-detonation through a chemical reaction to break holes in tougher prey. Their complexity is directly offset by their ability to be created in large numbers due to their small size.

Quote from: Shieldbearers
Pawns given a durable metacrystal shield based upon the bulwarks and a sharp obsidian/crystal lance, they interlink into a shield wall with allies. The use of earth-aspect mana is imbued into their bodies, making them foes of surprising resilience. They travel the ground, linked to the earth, but can climb walls as if it were floor and have a solid stance hen supporting each other.

Make a request to the Menagerie for forces capable of supporting units.

Quote from: Flame Reaper
A large inhuman fire elemental made of flames, colored according to the faction it belongs to. Moves at a slow float on the ground when upright, or a formless flight. While formless, it's core is exposed to attack, but it can spread freely to cause chaos and appear at any point those touch. Minor Intelligence, can follow simple directions, but cannot move in formation due to it's nature. Its forelimbs end in razer-hot scythes tipped in white flames. It uses these to slash through the armor as it spreads fire and panic. Given enough time, it's body can become giant by absorbing more of it's element, feeding off the fallen.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Failbird105 on March 09, 2024, 05:51:31 pm
Shoot, I have to admit I've kinda had some of the wind sucked from my sails, especially because this has been a really bad week for me that I'm not going to be through with until the hard deadline is basically over. The concept of the Stymphalian is something I had come up with literally the exact same day the forums first went down, so any proper write-up for them vanished from my brain long before I was able to propose them. I'm kinda just drawing a blank on ideas in general right now.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on March 09, 2024, 05:55:39 pm
The birds would likely be an Air/Nature/metal mix?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Jerick on March 09, 2024, 06:13:35 pm
We have the bulwark so I don't see the need for the shieldbearers right now. I do like the army swarmer though. I'm a sucker for small, fast, expendable things but I'm currently thinking something more like;
Quote from: The Messengers
The messengers are floating assemblies of stable metacrystal that hover just a little ways off the ground. They cannot fly any higher, are rather slow and have no offensive or defensive abilities. However they can read the minds of any nearby creature or entity capable of something resembling thought and they can transmit their own thoughts and ideas directly to anything it can read. Cognitively simple minds can be overwhelmed by the thoughts and ideas the messenger sends them allowing the messenger to convert them to the blue entity's cause. They are however able to send messages between messengers and far greater distance allowing instant transmission of information. The messengers are very cognitively complex and are capable of high level strategic thinking and coordination and serve as officers for the blue entitiy's forces. These traits also make them excellent negotiators

Quote from: Votey Boxy
Main design
Army Swarmer ()
Shieldbears ()
Messengers (1) Jerick

Mercenary Recruit

Flame Reaper ()

Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on March 09, 2024, 06:18:54 pm
Pretty sure we can't do merc designs, just ask for something instead. The current mercs are critters, so don't think elementals fall into them.

Also, Shield bears take advantage of already having the shields. They're an upgrade to the basic pawn. And if they go well there is an easy revision to make Bulrocks cheaper. (Using hard rocks instead of just durable metacrystal.)
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Failbird105 on March 09, 2024, 06:58:55 pm
The birds would likely be an Air/Nature/metal mix?
I mean, I'm no scientist but I'm pretty sure Birds don't need wind magic to fly. These are pretty much just reinforced birds of above-average size. Think like a shoebill with a spear for a beak.


Also, two things:
1. We get two designs this turn, same with the next. Y'all don't need to vote for just one thing
2. We don't get to design the Merc units ourselves. As far as I can tell the idea is that we write up a request in a manner of "we want something/someone that can do these general things, plus a few additional notes." and it's Fallacy who comes up with the actual design if our Request rolls well. Also, Merc units don't really fall under the limitations of our own personal units.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Jerick on March 09, 2024, 07:05:32 pm
Quote from: Votey Boxy
Main design
Army Swarmer (1) Jerick
Shieldbears ()
Flame Reaper ()
Messengers (1) Jerick

Mercenary Recruit

Support Unit ()
No requests yet(1) Jerick
My bad I though you were submitting the flame reaper as something from the menagerie. My brain has been scrambled lately. Hence me missing the fact that we get two designs this turn. (It has been quite the week for me too). That said I'm not sold on making a request just yet. If we fail we'll be locked out of making a request for a number of turns or we could get the vague GM promises of other consequences. I'd rather get a negotiator to improve our odds of not screwing up our merc rolls. I'd be much more comfortable rolling every chance we got then.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Failbird105 on March 09, 2024, 07:30:21 pm
Personally, I feel like the Army Swarmers complexity isn't going to be quite as offset as one might think. Really I think the biggest reason to make a Revision phase is just so we can work on improving the output speed of the Gates. Though we could also use a different Shift to create something that can be used to create Gate alternatives instead.

Other Shift ideas:
A fucking sun and moon(or an emulation of them) for day/night cycles, we're going to be pretty limited on what we can get from the Menagerie if we don't have those. I'd personally say it should be that the first half of a Battle Phase takes place under daylight, while the second half takes place under moonlight.
A way to create a persistent shelter for creatures we bring from the Menagerie, since we can't do that when the battlefield shifts every week. I'd recommend creating a decently sized "home base" for each faction, which remains consistent between battlefield shifts and would steadily change whenever a design that can theoretically contribute to it arrives.


Oh on the topic of the Messengers though: brilliant idea. Honestly, they even make it more viable to use non-sapient creatures in armies, since they can bypass the communication barrier with direct mind-to-mind instruction. I'm not sure on anything else though. Keep in mind Tric: I added the Elements, but there's not really any system of magic yet, nor is there necessarily any "elemental mana" or energy. I feel like we need to keep our applications of the elements more material in the short term.

Quote from: Votey Boxy
Main design
Army Swarmer: (1) Jerick
Shieldbearers: ()
Flame Reaper: ()
Messengers: (1) Jerick

Mercenary Recruit
Support Unit ()
No requests yet (2): Jerick, Failbird
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on March 09, 2024, 08:20:43 pm
Question, does  it actually cost us anything to hire mercs?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 09, 2024, 08:24:27 pm
Question, does  it actually cost us anything to hire mercs?

That depends on the faction you're hiring from. The Menagerie requires sustenance upkeep - food, water, and the like. Currently the Elemental Gate Design both teams received provides 2 / 2 sustenance upkeep.

Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on March 09, 2024, 08:31:31 pm
Can we cut a contract?
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Failbird105 on March 10, 2024, 03:36:17 pm
Quote from: Votey Boxy
Main design
Army Swarmer: (1) Jerick
+1 : ()
Shieldbearers: ()
Flame Reaper: ()
Messengers: (2) Jerick, Failbird
 +1: (1) Failbird

Mercenary Recruit
Support Unit ()
No requests yet (2): Jerick, Failbird

I remembered that we did managed to meet the soft deadline for the Shift, so we have a +1. I figure that, while the Swarmers will probably be more difficult, the Messengers are far more important to make sure we get right.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on March 10, 2024, 03:44:01 pm
Quote from: Votey Boxy
Main design
Army Swarmer: (2) Jerick, TricMagic
+1 : (1) TricMagic
Shieldbearers: (1) TricMagic
Flame Reaper: ()
Messengers: (2) Jerick, Failbird,
 +1: (1) Failbird

Mercenary Recruit
Support Unit (1) TricMagic
No requests yet (2): Jerick, Failbird

I really don't see a reason not to make the request. Support units are generic enough to have a low threshold.
Shieldbearers make wizards very difficult to actually get to, since they can and will get in the way, and having a better base unit means their lines will crumple. Swamers meanwhile, exist to cause trouble. (Though messengers to direct forces is also a good strategy.)
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Jerick on March 10, 2024, 04:10:24 pm
Quote from: Votey Boxy
Main design
Army Swarmer: (2) Jerick, TricMagic
+1 : (1) TricMagic
Shieldbearers: (1) TricMagic
Flame Reaper: ()
Messengers: (2) Jerick, Failbird,
 +1: (2) Failbird, Jerick

Mercenary Recruit
Support Unit (1) TricMagic
No requests yet (2): Jerick, Failbird
That's purely an assumption. The truth is we don't know what kind of threshold we're dealing with for the requests. Something as generic as 'support' won't be the highest but we're currently rolling with a minus two. If the messengers are even just alright we go from -2, to +2 on those rolls. A single turn of patience means our odds go way up (unless the reverse dice kicks in). I don't want to be sitting here having pissed off the menagerie with an excellent negotiator unit not able to negotiate just because we couldn't wait a turn. We can't support too much right now anyway.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on March 10, 2024, 04:24:53 pm
Fallacy never answered if we could cut contracts. Cause what happens when the creater of them, Red, gets an extra unit to help make up for shortcoming? Like some sort of focus fire type.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 11, 2024, 06:07:46 am
Fallacy never answered if we could cut contracts.

Okay, please explain what you mean exactly by 'cut contract'. I'm happy to answer reasonable questions.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on March 11, 2024, 10:42:47 am
Fallacy never answered if we could cut contracts.

Okay, please explain what you mean exactly by 'cut contract'. I'm happy to answer reasonable questions.
If we've contracted a mercenary design, we have to feed it. I'm asking if, if we want another design but it would put us over the amount we can pay, can we cut loose a design we received.

Basically, the other two are worried that if we receive a merc design, we will be unable to get another one later. Because they are apparently permanent in their eyes and we have to pay for all of them? Always.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: Jerick on March 11, 2024, 12:00:31 pm
No that's not the worry. We can always make a design to make us able to support more mercs. That's not a problem. Capacity is not the issue. The issue is that bad rolls on the negotiation rolls are stated to be something that can piss off the menagerie keepers.
Quote from: from the rules
Failure may aggravate the relevant Mercenary faction, making Mercenary Requests to them temporarily impossible, or having far worse consequences.
What we're worried is about flubbing the roll and making them not want to deal with us for several turns (or possibly attack us if we roll really poorly). We don't want to anger the zoo keepers.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on March 11, 2024, 12:03:34 pm
No that's not the worry. We can always make a design to make us able to support more mercs. That's not a problem. Capacity is not the issue. The issue is that bad rolls on the negotiation rolls are stated to be something that can piss off the menagerie keepers.
Quote from: from the rules
Failure may aggravate the relevant Mercenary faction, making Mercenary Requests to them temporarily impossible, or having far worse consequences.
What we're worried is about flubbing the roll and making them not want to deal with us for several turns (or possibly attack us if we roll really poorly). We don't want to anger the zoo keepers.
If we anger them, we can just shift in a new merc group. And I went for something fairly generic for a reason.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: TricMagic on March 11, 2024, 06:25:41 pm
I'll also point out it's extremely likely red faction has no qualms, so we'd be going in with one less unit to our name.
Title: Re: Generic Arms Race, Blue Faction - Design Phase, 0001
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 11, 2024, 09:56:03 pm
Fallacy never answered if we could cut contracts.

Okay, please explain what you mean exactly by 'cut contract'. I'm happy to answer reasonable questions.
If we've contracted a mercenary design, we have to feed it. I'm asking if, if we want another design but it would put us over the amount we can pay, can we cut loose a design we received.

At least for the Menagerie, once you've acquired a contract for a given creature, you do have to keep it. This may differ for other Mercenaries.

Exceptions:
-You can always Shift the Mercenary rules.
-Typically with a Single Deployment Usage, you can replace the creation of the Design if it is destroyed. A Single Deployment Menagerie mercenary would be a one-of-a-kind creature. You're not getting that back, so if it were to be killed, you would get the upkeep back. Of course, killing that one-of-a-kind creature deliberately or through negligence would probably piss the Menagerie off.
-It would be doable to command a diplomat construct to negotiate with the Menagerie in order to return creatures in your possession, ideally with some kind of incentive given in exchange.