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Other Projects => Curses => Topic started by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 18, 2008, 05:29:00 pm

Title: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 18, 2008, 05:29:00 pm
By request, this thread is specifically devoted to future development, speculation, etc. for Liberal Crime Squad, modeled after the Future of the Fortress threads for Dwarf Fortress.

Here's where we stand now.

The current primary emphasis of my own efforts are in rewriting a lot of the code to make it more object-oriented and maintainable. This is a big project and won't see a lot of payoff to the player, so the next release is likely to be a bit further off without a lot of proportional reward. That's temporary though. The good side of this is that it'll make the game easier for new developers to work on, will make future development faster and easier for me with less propensity for bugs, and will lay the foundations for being able to make the game moddable using text files to define weapons and such in the future.

Puzzlemaker is also on the project and is working on a separate set of features LCS, but I'll let him talk about it if he'd like to. ^_^

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Torak on May 18, 2008, 06:16:00 pm
The JSF versions of LCS need to be put into the downloads section of LCS.


Edit: A separate forum would be swell, too.

[ May 18, 2008: Message edited by: Torak ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: JT on May 18, 2008, 06:20:00 pm
It might be nice to include visible genders in all of the people you interact with (possibly when moving from structs to classes).  Successfully seducing a person of the same sex would be a crime in an Ultra-Conservative state, and/or would make a political statement towards allowing same sex rights and privileges.  Mixed-sex encounters should have no effect (I'd be wary of making mixed-sex seductions force a shift towards Conservatism, since it's merely status quo, not undermining the fabric of gay marriage).

Visible genders would also allow more prudish players a choice in the gender of their love slaves.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 18, 2008, 06:24:00 pm
Will there be any way to kill tanks?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 18, 2008, 06:36:00 pm
Download section of LCS -- I asked Toady last night if he'd put a link to the Curses forum with mention of future development going on, and he was kind enough to agree to do that. The link should be added to the LCS page in the next day or so.

Character Gender -- I am willing to add character gender if you can go into their profile and change it manually from Male to Female to This Liberal Needs No Conservative Gender. Although perhaps adding a hidden unchangable variable as well would govern how Conservatives, and in darker times, moderates, would respond, regardless of your setting. Liberals would always respect your choice.

Tanks -- Yes, eventually. Someday. When molotovs are added. They keep getting pushed back, but never canceled. The addition will probably come after creatures are overhauled, as I'm planning on splitting armor and clothing, and perhaps giving a secondary weapon, which could be a throwable or perhaps a melee weapon for when you're out of ammo. However, I have to note, you aren't really supposed to be able to win the high end sieges, and you can expect to see other difficult to handle issues, like soldiers throwing grenades at the start of combat and helicopter strikes on your compound.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: BishopX on May 18, 2008, 06:48:00 pm
I would really like that, at the moment sieges aren't really a concern if you have more than 18 armed members in the same location, most of the time they never even get a shot off. Some sort of mechanism that would let them get the first shot in (maybe stub grenades or some use of the tactics skill?) would really help balance that out.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 18, 2008, 07:23:00 pm
Yes, I was thinking that SWAT teams will use stun grenades to steal initiative, while soldiers would go ahead and lob frag grenades that would do fairly major damage to the whole party. Both of these could be mitigated with tactics skill, which would enable your squad to move more carefully, take cover, and perhaps ambush them and prevent them from getting their opening move off. But you can't learn tactics except when fighting tactically skilled enemies, so there's a bit of a catch-22 there...
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: BishopX on May 18, 2008, 10:31:00 pm
You can always just recruit a soldier or an agent, that's generally how I start my combat wing.

What sort of creatures should be added?

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: JT on May 19, 2008, 01:01:00 am
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan S. Fox:
<STRONG>Character Gender -- I am willing to add character gender if you can go into their profile and change it manually from Male to Female to This Liberal Needs No Conservative Gender. Although perhaps adding a hidden unchangable variable as well would govern how Conservatives, and in darker times, moderates, would respond, regardless of your setting. Liberals would always respect your choice.</STRONG>

Free sex changes?

I was actually referring more to the idea that when you see:

code:
Radio Personality  Corporate Manager
Teenager           Security Guard

 You would instead see:
code:
♂ Radio Personality  ♀ Corporate Manager
♀ Teenager           ♀ Security Guard

Also, you could possibly choose to play as either a male or female upon commencement of the game, since that's a classic roguelikeism (something which is based on something which is based on something).

What's the rationale behind allowing changing between one, the other, or none?

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: BishopX on May 19, 2008, 01:10:00 am
It's more liberal :P

[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: BishopX ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 19, 2008, 01:30:00 am
It'll probably just have a mention of M/F/NA for everyone when you go into try to drop a pickup line. (The gender symbols are not in the ASCII table, and LCS does not use Unicode for display, so they aren't really an option.) Not really important otherwise -- the LCS doesn't concern itself with identifying people by race or gender.  ;)

Allowing you to change is because, as BishopX says, it's more Liberal. Thematically, the game currently ignores gender entirely, not for simple oversight but because it's more Liberal to do so. If we're going to change that, I want to at least make the implementation of gender done in a very Liberal fashion. It's not a "free sex change", just that your Liberals need not adhere to Conservative Ideas about gender and identity. Of course, if you're dropping pick up lines on Conservatives, said Conservative dates might disagree with this, but that's their problem...

[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on May 19, 2008, 05:15:00 am
hm... It's kind of interesting to think that your liberal male seducer would  seduce straight female conservatives while pretending to be a female lesbian . It's that much more interesting from their perspective too.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on May 19, 2008, 10:41:00 am
Make it so that the 5% of the population that's gay will stay liberal no matter how conservative the country becomes.  God made us liberal, there's no use resisting it.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 19, 2008, 01:14:00 pm
Oh, there's plenty of gay Conservatives and moderates. Log cabin Republicans, closeted GOP politicians, ex-gay ministries, etc. etc.. It is the position of the Liberal Crime Squad that these people have merely been polluted by Wrong Conservative Thought, and that with the right prodding they could awaken to their True Liberal Nature. But then, that's the Liberal Crime Squad's position on everyone they don't decide to shoot, so...
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Twerty on May 19, 2008, 04:44:00 pm
You guys are taking this issue way too seriously, gender shouldn't have any real impact on the game except ornamental and perhaps a very minor effect in seduction. Gay people don't get 'supar liberal powurz' as mainiac suggested. Let's take a step back here.

Liberal Crime Squad is a game that doesn't make sense. It's not supposed to make sense. It just happens to coincide with most conservative perceptions. This is a game where you seduce people and convince them to fight off the national guard. Where Janitors start out with experience in medieval weapons. Where Soldiers walk around in apartments with their Army Bodyarmour on and M16 in hand. Where playing a guitar will cause people to try to kill you, or, if you happen to be good, will cause people to kill others.

This is a game where you can vastly change an entire nation through mass slaughtering and other felonies.

Gender doesn't matter. This isn't a dating sim, for fark's sake, it's the world through the eyes of a lunatic. Though the eyes of a lunatic, doing 'liberal-oriented crimes' will cause you to become smarter, stronger, better, faster, more charming, and more confident. (juice) And through the eyes of a lunatic, gender doesn't matter.

[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: Twerty ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 19, 2008, 05:08:00 pm
Except if your a lunatic rapist.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 19, 2008, 05:14:00 pm
Hey, take it easy. I don't think anyone is trying to make the game into a dating sim, and mainiac wasn't saying gay people should have Liberal superpowers, just pointing out that it's pretty rare to see people take a position they perceive to be in favor of discrimination against their own group.

Personally, if gender is implemented, given that it's currently not in place intentionally, I'd like to see it be done in a light and entertaining way that enables cool situations, possibly sets up some humorous exchanges, and is very "Liberal". But I'd like to be able to discuss this and get people's opinions about it, including contrary ones, without having it become a heated argument.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Twerty on May 19, 2008, 05:38:00 pm
Wasn't literally saying that the game's trying to be made into a dating sim or anything, and I'm not trying to start a fevered argument or seem to not be 'taking this easy'. =|

Just trying to explain why gender probably wasn't there in the first place. That's just my two bits. Didn't mean to lash out or anything.

Also, Little, I stand corrected. xD Then again, it's not like lunatic rapists have normal 'tastes' if you know what I'm saying. >.>

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 19, 2008, 05:52:00 pm
No problem -- I probably interpreted it to be a little more inflammatory than you meant it to be.

Gender isn't in the game in the first place because it's Liberal to ignore it.    ;) But it's also something that, like getting arrested for selling 'brownies', is frequently asked about. People want a way to check people's gender before asking them out, as they might find it weird that their male alter ego is suddenly dating a Richard when they are not gay themselves. When told gender isn't even tracked by the game, more than one person has suggested it.

There's certainly nothing broken about the game not tracking gender, it's a very intentional design decision to fit with the theme of the game. But since it's brought up occasionally as a recurring question, I'm open to adding it; I'd just want to make sure it's implemented in a way that's similarly keeping with the theme and serves to open up new possibilities, like hilarity from Conservatives in the Gentleman's Club getting creeped out by your crossdressing founder asking them out.

[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 19, 2008, 05:59:00 pm
So, got any new ideas from the Toady Discussion?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 19, 2008, 06:18:00 pm
Oh yes, I have been reticent about it because there's a lot of little things that will be more awesome if you stumble into them (eg, Hidden Fun Stuff material). But here's MOST of the ideas he gave me from the plans before departing LCS, minus a few of those gems I want to just add silently:

- [???]

- Change location names and do more with business fronts.

- Add some more clubs, add bouncers.

- Make dating more interesting.

- Add more information about prisoners, at least stop them from being called prisoners once they join up.

- Allow you to give up when you are at a site (even to non-police, but might get some... special treatment, depending on who given up to).

- [???]

- Have people on site become witnesses in the trial, they can be specific about what they witnessed by recording the combat actions and injuries they saw, the victims can cry about how they got their faces mutilated etc..

- [???]

- Try to lump lcs actions in to sprees that can be reported on in the newspaper as such, keep track of achievements in this record and improve the narrative in steps, car chases need news repercussions.

- Hospital condition and procedures described in much greater detail.

- Need more things to publish, and more groups to offend (he he he,
that's vague isn't it...)

- More robust list of issues and laws, it doesn't even cover all of the
ones listed on the ACLU's website.

- Ability to make LCS official uniform and symbol.

- Ability to drag already-taken hostages along to sites for various reasons.

- Ability to grab a person and put a gun to their head to affect the flow of a (potential) firefight, funny conversation stuff to go with that.

- [???]

- Ability to pistol-whip hostages (and have associated reasons for that).

- Mental illnesses from the more fucked up indoctrinations and also as an affect of CIA interrogation/sieges.

- Add age and age effects.

- Police lockers with riot gear, gas masks, gas during sieges, if times are really fucked up and conservative they could use mustard gas during sieges.

- Protests and riots.

- Opera houses, universities, construction sites, hotels (with associated valet lcs actions/uniforms), stadiums, fucked up basements in conservative houses, varied building sizes, elevators, hidden doors in places where it would make sense.

- [???]

- Being about to post bail to get squad people (and random people) out of jail, jumping bail, having court dates that you can go to or not, various associated media stuff surrounding trials that can make it profitable to leave members in custody until the bitter end, but a downside would be having fucked up things happen in jail.

- Keep track of surveys and do graphs.

- Conventions, protests of these (WTO etc.), turnout can be based on public opinion in part.

- Lots of evil constitutional amendments and an ability to view the current state of the constitution, conservatives can clarify portions of the bill of rights.

- [???]

- Ability to file law suits, possibly have law suits filed against you

- Effects of being caught with bloody/damaged clothes.

- Sleeper cops giving more information about raids, get updates on
investigations from them, investigations relating specifically to your
front business.

- Make getting a wheelchair more exciting.

There were more writeups and ideas on paper, but he doesn't have the rest of those.   :( Regardless, there's a lot of great material to work with here, much of which wouldn't take much effort but would contribute to making the game that much cooler.

[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 19, 2008, 06:26:00 pm
.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 19, 2008, 06:30:00 pm
- Add age and age effects.
- Protests and riots.
- Ability to make LCS official uniform and symbol.
- Hospital condition and procedures described in much greater detail.
- Make dating more interesting.
- Police lockers with riot gear, gas masks, gas during sieges, if times are really fucked up and conservative they could use mustard gas during sieges.
- Ability to file law suits, possibly have law suits filed against you

Sounds awesome, although I wonder how the interface could handle it. Divide your LCS into diffrent branches that can run automatically or manually?

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 19, 2008, 06:30:00 pm
Speculation and ideas on how to make getting a wheelchair more exciting are encouraged, because I'm a bit excited about that one too.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 19, 2008, 06:40:00 pm
:D

Honestly, I'd just like the ability to divide my LCS into diffent parts. You know, a Combat Branch, a Recruiting Branch, a Legal/Illegal Fundraising Branch(es, a Law Branch if nessecary.

It'd clear up alot of clutter in the 'A'ctivate menu and Squad Formation menus.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 19, 2008, 06:56:00 pm
Like to add stuff I am working on...

A more dynamic system for organizations, and organization interaction.  AKA you can piss off all individual organizations, and they can ask for help from each other, etc.

Also config files.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 19, 2008, 07:12:00 pm
Are you adding in more organizations?

This could be cool. What if I pissed off the Cable News by killing a few News Anchors and shooting up the station, and they agreed to help the CIA by shutting down Hippie News, Indepdent News, and Underground News, therefore causing a complete blackout.

I think it'd be intresting if cover-ups only worked with the Conservative station and the indepdent ones would have to be shut down? If you could work with them, offering them protection?

Edit: We might get moddable text files for weapons? Sweet!

[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: Little ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 19, 2008, 07:25:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Little:
<STRONG> :D

Honestly, I'd just like the ability to divide my LCS into diffent parts. You know, a Combat Branch, a Recruiting Branch, a Legal/Illegal Fundraising Branch(es, a Law Branch if nessecary.

It'd clear up alot of clutter in the 'A'ctivate menu and Squad Formation menus.</STRONG>


One of the things that Puzzlemaker is working on is allowing the LCS to form subsidiary organizations, not just having external ones. This may be able to support your idea and the automation of certain tasks, at least in some form.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 19, 2008, 07:27:00 pm
Well, plan is, for example, if you shoot up a genetics factory, you piss of cable news.  They then might agree to help out another organization that hates you, AKA if you shoot up a research lab.  Then you might find yourself in a situation where when you attack the research lab again, the cable news launches a huge media blitz defending them.

Etc, etc.

Also:  Do Not get your hopes up about the config files.  Config files are hard.

Edit:  Yeah, I forgot to mention sub-organizations you can start and stuff.

[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: Puzzlemaker ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 19, 2008, 07:48:00 pm
Why would cable news be pissed at a genetics factory being shot up?

It sounds awesome though. What would my interior organizations be able to do?

Would it be possible for a part of my sprawling organization cut all ties with me then strike out on it's own as another Liberal Crime Squad?

Then you could choose to basically ignore them and let them go around(like a liberal, weakened version of the CCS?), ally with them or kill them off(if this was discovered, very negative coverage?).

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: beorn080 on May 19, 2008, 07:56:00 pm
Well for the acquiring a wheelchair currently we have people with their necks broken and unable to move anything but their eyes going out and I guess purchasing wheelchairs.  Could make them either go out and steal the chairs directly from conservative cripples or maybe raid a genetics lab or other place that may have them and steal them and wear them instead of clothes. Perhaps steal them during a police benefit for police killed oppressing the peoples right to make holes in police officers and have a low speed getaway with a wheelchair chase.
  Also I can see the fucked up basement and the make dating more interesting go together.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 19, 2008, 08:54:00 pm
Attack a para-palgic covention?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 19, 2008, 09:19:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Little:
<STRONG>Why would cable news be pissed at a genetics factory being shot up?

It sounds awesome though. What would my interior organizations be able to do?

Would it be possible for a part of my sprawling organization cut all ties with me then strike out on it's own as another Liberal Crime Squad?

Then you could choose to basically ignore them and let them go around(like a liberal, weakened version of the CCS?), ally with them or kill them off(if this was discovered, very negative coverage?).</STRONG>


No, I meant the cable news would defend the genetics factory viciously.

As for the rest of the questions; I have no idea.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 19, 2008, 09:32:00 pm
What will my interior organizations be able to automate, or is it just to cut down on the clutter in menus?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 19, 2008, 11:19:00 pm
I can imagine some amusing scenarios involving a legless Liberal sitting outside the safehouse trying to verbally coerce some passer by into giving her a lift to a police retirement benefit and help her steal an electric scooter.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: JT on May 20, 2008, 08:37:00 pm
Popping back in a little late to bring up the gender issue again, I'm firmly in the boat that the game should try to mimic reality.

1) Not implemented at all, or
2) Implemented realistically.

The whole "Liberal Gender" thing isn't really as funny as I think you think it is.  I steered clear of saying it the first time, since I wanted to give you a chance to defend it, but I think it sounded like a really stupid idea. ;-)

Gender inequality (particularly wage disparity) would also be an excellent subject for the game.  E.g.:

Arch-Conservative: Women are considered chattel and are not allowed to vote or own property.
Conservative: Women have suffrage, but are still considered inferior to men.
Moderate: Women are legally equal to men, but still draw poor wages.
Liberal: Women are mostly equal to men, with slightly dissimilar incomes.
Elite Liberal: Women are considered perfectly equal to men.

There would be plenty of opportunities for jabs at fierce right-wingers like the Bountiful, B.C. enclave (a Mormon-ish cult where women are considered property and receive arranged marriage) and/or the Islamic terrorist-fundamentalists which require women to hide their faces in public and whatnot.

Gender symbols aren't part of the 32-127 ASCII range, but are part of the 0-127 range.  I used the Unicode symbols for the convenience of the internet, not for the convenience of the game.  Unless pdcurses interprets the symbols as control characters, the VT and FF characters (ASCII 0xB and ASCII 0xC) are printed as male and female gender symbols in codepage 437.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on May 20, 2008, 08:54:00 pm
as an alternative you can use ▲ and ▼ to describe gender (like they do on toilet rooms).
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 20, 2008, 09:02:00 pm
I agree with most of those points; but I don't really want to touch the Islamic part of it.  Mostly because it's a stereotypical thing to assume; in a lot of Muslim countries, woman have a lot of rights.  I mean, they have had a hell of a lot more woman leaders then America has.  Plus, I think it might just be the flip side of how things are done in America.  I mean, you want something sold, put a half naked woman on it.  That seems a little more sexist, in different ways, then making them cover themselves up.

Also, unless I am mistaken, the Koran gives them the right to vote, or something like that.

And no, I am not Muslim, if you where wondering.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on May 20, 2008, 09:22:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzlemaker:
<STRONG>the Koran gives them the right to vote</STRONG>

I'm pretty sure that Quran doesn't give anyone the right to vote. in fact I will bet you a pair of clean socks that it says something along the lines of "to each his own. To the rulers-rulerish things, to the peasants- peasantish things."

and before you accuse me of anti-islamism, note that the Christian Bible also says stuff like that.

[ May 20, 2008: Message edited by: a1s ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 20, 2008, 09:55:00 pm
.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on May 20, 2008, 10:21:00 pm
nah, a wheelchair can be quite the chariot of death if you give it a nice push and an AK-47.  ;)

that being said, a wheelchair-bound person should still get hit every time they are fired at- it doesn't take an Olympic crackshot to hit an object that is stationary or moving at a constant velocity.
in a getaway however they should have the effective agility of [top liberal in the group]-5 (it's on wheels, if you push it- it moves on it's own!)

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 21, 2008, 03:59:00 am
JT on gender--

I think it's very funny, but more than that, I think it's very realistic. As I mentioned before, it's not a magical sex change option, it's a matter of a different paradigm on gender and identity. This may not line up with yours, but it's one that's held by many people in the real world, and it's one the LCS would support.

It is actually an important but often overlooked part of the gay rights movement that many people are transsexual and identify as a different gender than the anatomy they were born with. They do, for the most part, have their decisions respected by those around them, but it has been a difficult part of the gay rights movement to even get legislation protecting the right of these people to equal employment opportunity in anti-discrimination laws, and gay rights groups have pulled out of support for otherwise highly favorable legislation because they perceive it as pulling the latter up behind them, and they support GLBT rights, not just GLB and throw the last group under the bus.

The Liberal Crime Squad pushes for these Liberal ideals, the absolute Elite Liberal Agenda, not a more moderate half-way that some would prefer, but the far left wing. That means they have full support of the gay rights movement, including support for the recognition, respect, and equality for transsexuality and transsexual people. It is not simply a matter of humor and a joke, but that this is a fact of life for some people and recognition of people having the right to make decisions about their own gender identity and have others respect that is part of the ideological stance of the LCS.

I have personally known former men who now identify as women, former women who now identify as men, even people who don't identify as either gender, but something different or neither, and have new and different pronouns for their identification which they specifically request others to use in reference to them. Like it or not, changing gender and even defying it completely is a canon part of the LCS's stated ideology and worldview, and I'm not going to take that out because it seems unrealistic to some. The idea that it's just a joke to enable people to make a choice like that and is unrealistic is in fact one of the Conservative ideas that the LCS fights to end. In another time people would have said the same thing about implementing gender realistically to the suggestion of letting people flip a switch in their profile setting sexual orientation.

The fact is, not everyone in this world agrees on everything. You're not going to agree with everything that the LCS believes, and you're not expected to. But for many people this sort of thing is an aspect of life for them, and the LCS fights to represent those people. When I say that I would be okay with adding gender if you could change it in your profile, and that there might be a secret variable tracking your original gender and Conservatives might refuse to acknowledge your new one while Liberals would, I am proposing a more realistic system for gender, and one that adheres more closely to the world as it is seen by the sort of people you play as in this game. You may personally perceive it to be unrealistic that people would have the right to choose their gender identity, but that doesn't mean it's unrealistic for the sort of people you are playing as.

---

Representing M/F--

This may seem stodgy and Conservative, but I don't want to get into putting non-printing characters in text in hopes that they will be printed and not treated as control characters, when that is completely out of my hands as a programmer to enforce. Dwarf Fortress has the luxury of displaying using its own defined character set in OpenGL, but LCS is totally at the mercy of the console it lives in. The Linux and Mac ports don't use the same library and don't use the same console, and as a result, both butcher a lot of the ASCII LCS already uses. They rely on horribly ugly hacks to do things like represent the US Flag as a bunch of tildes and underscores, and that's just so you can understand what you're looking at. When I put a M or an F on the screen I know that it's going to be an M or an F no matter what console, library, and operating system is being used. Given that LCS already suffers from portability issues in its display, I like the security of knowing that what I'm programming is both standard and consistently implemented.

---

Wheelchair--

The game already implements wheelchairs in a pretty reasonable fashion. It's not exciting to get one, that's just a one-line thing that is a real snoozer (you activate->find a wheelchair (replaces steal cars for legless/lower body paralyzed liberals), and the game tells you if they succeeded), but once you have one the game handles it pretty gracefully. How it's implemented now:

1) Wheelchair is currently neither weapon nor armor. It's a special item with its own slot and it's only used if you need it. You need one if you can't walk, but once you have one you can travel in site actions and move around and fight as normal with a squad. Of course, if you don't have command of your arms either, you'll just sit there and look on with authority as others battle far you, but that's another matter.

2) Wheelchair doesn't affect combat, but you'll be sitting on a permanent and juice-immune 1 agility if you are fully body paralyzed. If you can move your upper body but can't move your lower body, or you have no legs, your agility will not be nuked completely, but it'll still be quartered (including juice bonuses), making them easy targets to hit, and attacks will do much more damage as they'll get nice, clean shots in on your wheelchair-bound Liberal to boot.

[ May 21, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

[ May 21, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Deon on May 21, 2008, 10:41:00 am
Is there a way to find the gender of a person for now? I mean, when you talk to them I want to know their gender before I tyr to "pick up" them.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 21, 2008, 11:12:00 am
Characters in the game don't currently have gender.

(Any appearance otherwise is just because the name generator picks from both male and female names.)

[ May 21, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 21, 2008, 01:13:00 pm
I've added a door guard to the gentleman's club. He'll let you in if you adhere to the dress code and look presentable (not underage, not covered in blood, not wearing second-rate clothing, not holding an AK-47, not smelling funny because you're a Stinking Liberal, etc..) -- otherwise he'll bar it and stare at you until you leave.

If you start screwing around with the door he'll see you immediately since he's standing there and kick your butt. Or more likely you'll waste him and smash the door in, but either way you're not going to be picking up those pretty CCS Vigilantes hanging out inside without getting shot unless you get by him peacefully.

Right now the gentleman's club allows anyone who looks presentable in, but if you shoot the place up and it goes high security it will be converted to invitation only and he'll always reject you no matter what. You can't bribe the guy just yet but that'll be later.

Also, this system supports future clubs with bouncers at the door, including ones more friendly; it can spawn moderate bouncers that turn conservative if you make trouble or try to force your way into the entrance.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: JT on May 21, 2008, 04:50:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzlemaker:
<STRONG>I agree with most of those points; but I don't really want to touch the Islamic part of it.  Mostly because it's a stereotypical thing to assume; in a lot of Muslim countries, woman have a lot of rights.</STRONG>

Hence why I specifically said "terrorist-fundamentalists" -- not Muslims in general, but Muslims who are both terrorists and fundamentalists.  Ironically, the fundamentalists are more radical than the people who interpret the Qu'ran literally.  Muslim people on a whole are probably the nicest and most generally level people I've ever met.  If I recall, the Qu'ran even considers it culturally reproachable to insult someone -- even calling someone a "kafir" ("unfaithful") is almost as distasteful as a disbelief in Allah itself.

The terrorists who blow up buildings in the name of Islam, on the other hand... anything goes with them.

[edit] I should mention that I was specifically thinking of The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood when I brought up the equality issue.  In THT, women are abrogated as property by the United States, which had descended into an arch-conservative religious society and been renamed Gilead after an unnamed dystopian disaster.  Women had no legal power, and due to the alarming increase in sterility, fertile women were forced to become breeders through a wild interpretation of a Biblical passage where Rachel asks her handmaiden to be impregnated by her husband, with the handmaiden literally (but probably not really) being impregnated upon the wife's knees, and then takes the baby for herself.


 

quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan S. Fox:
<STRONG>The Liberal Crime Squad pushes for these Liberal ideals, the absolute Elite Liberal Agenda, not a more moderate half-way that some would prefer, but the far left wing.</STRONG>

The majority of that post was well conceived, but I still think it's pretty strange.  The GLBT rights fall under the homosexuality issue which is already represented; the wage disparity and other aspects are more generally relevant to the MF gender, as there is no such disparity for transgendered/bisexual/homosexual people that I'm aware of (although I'm (for lack of a better word) not intimately aware of the details of that sort of thing).  Regardless of how someone views their gender, they do have a physical sex which is almost always easily defined -- a sliding scale from male to female anatomy, with an inverse Gaussian distribution.

If a woman identifies as male, she is technically incorrect: she can identify with the male gender, but will always have female anatomy until she changes it (and even then will still have female genes and be incapable of reproducing).  If you want to implement "gender" versus "sex", you've made a good enough argument that I would accept it, but I think it's important to have both.

Never expected a simple request like that to go so far off track...

[ May 21, 2008: Message edited by: JT ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: BishopX on May 21, 2008, 06:35:00 pm
First off, gender and race would make excellent issues to be added to the game. There are clear levels of civil rights for both, and both are often considered 'liberal' issues.

Jt, is regards to wage disparities and the like, most transsexuals experience bias in the same way GLB folks do, as outright discrimination rather than the more subtle misogyny which is a problem for women and as such should probably fall under the gay rights category rather than any sort of gender-equity category becuase the nature of the issues they are dealing with. A prime example of this is  the man in Oregon who got pregnant, virtually every Ob/Gyn he talked to refused to take his case.

If LCS is going to take on sex/gender and the like as a issues or mechaincs, I would urge whoever is doing it to treat it to ignore sex and focus exclusively on gender. This fits the atmosphere much better, and give the player greater tactical freedom.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 21, 2008, 08:36:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by JT:
<STRONG>If a woman identifies as male, she is technically incorrect: she can identify with the male gender, but will always have female anatomy until she changes it (and even then will still have female genes and be incapable of reproducing).  If you want to implement "gender" versus "sex", you've made a good enough argument that I would accept it, but I think it's important to have both.</STRONG>

 

quote:
Originally posted by BishopX:
<STRONG>If LCS is going to take on sex/gender and the like as a issues or mechaincs, I would urge whoever is doing it to treat it to ignore sex and focus exclusively on gender. This fits the atmosphere much better, and give the player greater tactical freedom.</STRONG>

What I would like to do is have it to so both are tracked, but with very different functionality. Sex itself not on their character sheet, but when you want to change someone's gender identity, it has a note about what Unflexible Conservative Society believes their gender to be. Then, when you go out into the gentleman's club and start hitting on Conservatives, they respond according to both your set gender and sex (that is, if they aren't the same, they probably respond negatively, and if they are the same, they respond accordingly) -- unless your disguise skill is high enough, in which case you might get your face clubbed in on your first date when they finally figure it out.

[ May 21, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on May 21, 2008, 10:28:00 pm
If it's not too hard programming-wise, I'd think that "mis-aligning" sex and gender in public should arouse conservative suspicion (and/or add another crime to your rap sheet) if the political climate is bad enough. Same would go for hitting on same-sex/gender targets in the company of conservatives (or perhaps moderates too if the climate was really sour).
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 22, 2008, 06:27:00 pm
Nope, that wouldn't be a problem to program. Sounds like a good idea.

I added age and aging today. Currently shows birthdate, age in profile. Age affects stats. Your birthdate is based on your character creation choices (your "class" too, now, you're not just a transient). You can also die of old age, though I'm not sure how well that works, as I haven't been able to test it yet. What would you to see in age and aging?

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 22, 2008, 06:34:00 pm
Where can I find this version?

Also, I'd like Supreme Court people to age.

[ May 22, 2008: Message edited by: Little ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 22, 2008, 06:50:00 pm
It's currently on SVN, I haven't put a download up yet. If you just want an exe you can run, you can wait for a download release, OR go with the little known secret method of grabbing the latest windows test build off of SVN. This has the coolness of being extremely up to date, but the badness of being probable to be even more buggy than usual:

Go here, find the latest revision, click download. Save it in an existing LCS install directory, over another exe. Delete your save unless you want the game to crash, and then run as usual.

Re: Supreme court, GOOD CALL. I forgot about that. Definitely a must-have.

[ May 22, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 22, 2008, 08:04:00 pm
Warning:  Latest SVN commit may be unstable/wont compile.  Use caution.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 22, 2008, 08:34:00 pm
Just checked to make sure, and the latest commit didn't involve submitting a new exe. So it's okay. ^_^'
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on May 23, 2008, 01:33:00 am
Recruiting props are listing as "dating" expenses currently on the monthly report.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 23, 2008, 02:36:00 am
Yeah, was the closest entry for it. I couldn't be bothered to make another entry. At least yet. :P

Also, prostitution income is (or was until recently, don't remember) under the vague label "hustling".

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Skeeblix on May 23, 2008, 02:53:00 am
I step away from the forums for a couple days and come back to find this thread overflowing with awesome ideas and new/possible features.

All of you are incredible! There's few independent open-source games that get this kind of attention, and it's great to see the community pulling together to keep the wheel of progress turning.

Extra props go to you codemonkeys who make all our hairbrained, half-thought-out ideas into workable game mechanics.

I <3 you all.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on May 23, 2008, 05:45:00 am
I do like the new recruitment process, but I think it may be making it a bit too easy to train persuasion, and to make matters worse, by training up persuasion, the new recruitment process allows you to have a single slick huckster of a donation collector finance, well, all your operations. As of now, you can just go and string along 5-30 recruits at once (or 4-8 lawyers/socialites), make them come back for a day or two, and then burn them all for a pile of cash. With fairly low effort, a single "collector" can be pulling in well over $1000/day, and to the best of my knowledge, this is "safe" income.

I'm not sure this is entirely bad (it's like we get our very own Liberal Televangelist), but it does seem a bit out of whack.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on May 23, 2008, 05:47:00 am
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan S. Fox:
<STRONG>What would you to see in age and aging?</STRONG>

in addition to dieing of old age, it's reasonable to expect stat decrease, or possibly even wisdom gains (in accord with the saying "one who isn't a socialist at 20 has no heart, one who is at 50 has no brain"). as for how much, Agility should be affected most (like 10 points difference between 20 and The End), health and strength moderately, intelligence mildly (2-3 points), while heart and charisma not at all (or maybe Charisma goes down just for women, but they gain bonuses at early age?).
Also you'd expect teenagers to actually gain stats as they grow up and become Transients.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 23, 2008, 05:59:00 am
I'm glad your concerns with the new system are balance issues. Those are easy to fix. I'll take another look at it later. (tis 4am now)

Added basic hostage negotiations that you can trigger by talking to alarmed Conservatives while holding hostages and threatening to execute the hostagaes. Right now it's not based on persuasion or anything, just some choices and the enemies you're facing. Mildly fun, but the whole hostage execution thing is generally bad business for your juice.

You can also yell your Liberal Slogan at Conservatives in hope of this fazing them, though if you're the type that never changes your slogan, the default "We need a slogan!" might be embarrassing to utter in public. This has one current purpose and will later have more. Currently, it can scare people off if you have a very high juice Liberal and the LCS is feared. Later, once not everything you do is guaranteed to be reported as political activism, it will ensure that if any of the people who hear you survive, your site action will be connected to the LCS in the news. Spraying graffiti when you're on site will be another way to "sign" your misdeeds and guarantee that people know it was you.

Edit: For aging, my rough draft that I made earlier today had strength, agility, health, and heart dropping off at old age, while charisma, intelligence, and wisdom increase with age (charisma not for physical beauty, but for social influence and experience). The heart and wisdom effects are fairly small -- a swing of 4 points between them by the time they're 70+. And teenagers do generally get better stats when they turn into adults -- though their class becomes "Political Activist" since they're growing up as LCS Members. (High school dropouts and some fast food workers are also spawned as teenagers and go through the same process.)

Having a problem fitting the age into the profile screen. You can see it there, but it's actually sitting where damage is displayed if the Liberal is injured. I'll also have to fit gender in there and anything else that ends up being added.

[ May 23, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

[ May 23, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Rob Allen on May 23, 2008, 09:14:00 am
On behalf of the Anonymous community, I'd like to request the addition of a Guy Fawkes mask.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: McWaffle on May 23, 2008, 03:39:00 pm
quick and probably pansy suggestion: volunteering for liberal candidates in election years.  Get Out The Vote as a legal activity, for example.  Boosts the odds of liberal candidates getting elected, depending on the skill and number of LCS members working for the campaigns.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 23, 2008, 03:45:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by McWaffle:
<STRONG>quick and probably pansy suggestion: volunteering for liberal candidates in election years.  Get Out The Vote as a legal activity, for example.  Boosts the odds of liberal candidates getting elected, depending on the skill and number of LCS members working for the campaigns.</STRONG>

This can potentially be tied into the organization system... Eventually I would like for temporary organizations to be created for elections.  Also, being able to get people to volunteer for other organizations, and donate money, etc.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Kagus on May 23, 2008, 04:29:00 pm
All this talk about how it's more liberal to overlook someone's gender in favor of how they would rather see themselves reminds me of "Life of Brian".

As an aside, does anyone know how to edit the Firefox dictionary?  I just accidentally added the word "Liveral" to it, and I don't think that really needs to be part of my vocabulary (digitabulary?).

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Rob Allen on May 23, 2008, 05:54:00 pm
Haven't you ever heard of Teh Liveral Creme Squid?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 23, 2008, 06:05:00 pm
When your founder dies, and there are people suitable to replace him/her, it dosen't happen and it disbands.

Also, are temporary leaders possible? Like, if mty founder goes to prision for three years, can the next in line get the group to stay together?

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 23, 2008, 06:32:00 pm
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Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 23, 2008, 06:56:00 pm
Oh yeah that's my bad.  Config file stuff.

Edit:  Yeah, the correct stuff was overwritten?  I think?  Anyway, it's fixed now.

[ May 23, 2008: Message edited by: Puzzlemaker ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 23, 2008, 07:08:00 pm
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Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 23, 2008, 08:06:00 pm
If you can't get the absolute latest things to work, try 202. I'm pretty certain it works. (And note that any time we say "the latest build" or whatever, it's possible that will be out of date within hours when a new one comes up.  :o )
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on May 23, 2008, 08:17:00 pm
Penguin: you need to get a copy of configfile.txt. With that in place, the most recent executable (from the above link) works fine.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 23, 2008, 09:04:00 pm
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Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 23, 2008, 11:40:00 pm
I had an idea!  I'll just spout it out without any sort of development or anything.

How about a Daily Show analogue?  You know, the Daily Show is really REALLY popular and actually affects the way some Americans think.  Satire is a powerful tool.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 24, 2008, 07:09:00 am
I like that idea about having a satire/parallel of the Daily Show, but I'm not sure how it would be implemented. One thought would be to have a popular LCS be able to get an interview or something, or an unpopular LCS getting lampooned for your insanity and ruining the word Liberal for everyone else in society who would actually like to use it for things that don't involve killing people.

Changes in the last day:

- Liberal Guardian special editions no longer award Juice to everyone. I tested just toning down the juice award, but ended up going with removing the award entirely. They're still a powerful influential force in the media, but they won't supercharge your entire organization.

- Minor site actions no longer get reported in the media. The cutoff point and the amount that different crimes contribute to this are all variable easily, so I'm happy to hear feedback on how it feels. This allows you to do minor site actions to steal goods for money and increase juice without them being reported as political. Right now that isn't really useful, but at some point the public and media will likely get a lot of more judgmental about wanton criminal activities.

- I think I've fixed the dispersal bug where the founder was not replaced correctly and/or random subordinates dying triggered the death of the entire LCS.

- Being in prison will no longer induce loss of contact. History and/or fiction is ripe with tales of ringleaders still giving orders through codes and proxies to their old group via visitations. This will make prison less dangerous, but executions are still a looming risk, and it'll allow you to mount daring raids to save the founder. Should be fun.

- Massive Conservative Response "ENEMY" units once again cause enemies to spawn on you. This was taken out awhile back in favor of making the raid units instead spawn randomly, so that you didn't have to be by the door to be under threat. I think I just never finished this refinement, since I didn't take the units out, just made them not spawn enemies. Well, now both systems are in place: you not only get a high random spawn rate for the raiders, you also get large groups in roving units. Truly, the forces of Conservatism are mighty.

- "ENEMY" units in site mode will no longer bumble around blindly until they run into you, at least not when you're close. They now look around and move to attack the LCS if you move next to them or onto them. This means running between two ENEMY units will, predictably, result in both groups closing in and attacking at once. It also means you can't dash past them in hallways anymore.

- Conservatives can now get Notoriety, which is basically Juice for Conservatives. Moderates get Fame. People like Police and CCS Members can start with a pretty sizable amount of Notoriety, making them tough. Notoriety is not usually converted into Juice if they're turned Liberal; they lose all Notoriety and start from zero Juice. The exception to this is if they're in the negative -- then they'll end up starting with negative Juice too. Eventually I'd like to make it so that in interrogations and seductions and such one of the big things you're doing is reducing their Notoriety to drop their stats to a manageable level.

- The successive hit penalty for SMGs has been reduced by over 40%, making them much more accurate. Since SMGs start with a high base accuracy, this should help make them a much more viable weapon.

- The amount of heat needed to generate police sieges has been reduced by 60%, making police much more likely to attack your safehouses. Note that this is based on the new system, where police are very slow to warm up to attack anyway, and moving around frequently doesn't help much.

I also have some ideas to float:

- Provide only one, or even no abandoned warehouses to the player as safehouses to start with. As safehouses can be captured from the CCS, allow these to function as upgradable safehouses the way warehouses do. Apartments can still be rented as usual. The CCS would have "business fronts" on their safehouses -- eg, the Desert Eagle Bar & Grill would just be their business front name, and it would revert to something much less legitimate sounding and much less heat-dispersing when the LCS takes it, at least until you upgrade it.

- Make business fronts and fortifications mutually exclusive, forcing you to specialize in either avoiding or fighting sieges at a location, but not both. You would start out with two (mutually exclusive) installation options: Establish a business front, or fortify for a siege. The business front would enable more "legitimate" things, like setting up a public clinic or printing presses, for example. The siege fortifications would unlock your usual options of buying emergency food provisions, security cameras, secret stuff hiding caches, etc., to enhance your fortified safehouse. You would not be able to do both.

- Link the likelihood of sieges and the ability of a safehouse to disperse heat to the number of Liberals at a location. Every six liberals would reduce the quality of the safehouse by one point. It would probably use six to eleven liberals as the baseline, and have less than six give you a one point bonus, with twelve to seventeen being the first level of penalty. Note that the way it works now, a single point less safehouse quality doubles the effective heat at the location, while a single point more quality halves the effective heat. Combined with the first suggestion here about reducing your free safehouses to the homeless shelter and maybe one warehouse, this would give pressure to spread out your operations more, rent apartments, etc..

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 24, 2008, 10:59:00 am
Sounds good.

You get the save I sent you?

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 24, 2008, 11:05:00 am
quote:
Originally posted by penguinofhonor:
<STRONG>

It refuses to run, giving this error:
 (http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2678/errorzb6.png) </STRONG>


I have this problem....

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 24, 2008, 12:09:00 pm
you need configfile.txt
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 24, 2008, 01:39:00 pm
How do you download it?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 24, 2008, 02:21:00 pm
E. Albright posted the link last page: Here
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 24, 2008, 02:25:00 pm
When I hit download all that happens is this comes up:

# This is a test comment

OBJECT ORGANIZATION
NAME CCS
ALIGNMENT -1
SWAYABLE 0
ATKPOWER 50

OBJECT ORGANIZATION
NAME LCS
ALIGNMENT -1
SWAYABLE 0
ATKPOWER 50

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 24, 2008, 02:26:00 pm
Yeah; sorry about that, I will put in more checks to make sure things work the way they should if you don't have it.  Making some big changes to the code, so things might be a bit unstable for awhile; I apologize in advance, and hopefully Jonathan can resist killing me before I finish.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 24, 2008, 02:30:00 pm
So, I can't get the config file to play the new version?

DAMN!

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 24, 2008, 02:32:00 pm
You can. Just right click -> save as (or however it works in your browser). Put it in the same directory as your save file.

EDIT: Little, I just fixed the bug that caused your crash. Good news: Your save isn't damaged. If you want to load it, just use it with the new version. Committing a new exe right now.

[ May 24, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 24, 2008, 03:03:00 pm
I already deleted that save, damn.

Could you send it back to me?

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 24, 2008, 03:04:00 pm
Hehe; I just fixed it too.  Oh well.  We should prolly start locking files we are working on so we don't end up overwriting each others stuff.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 24, 2008, 05:42:00 pm
Just found and fixed the bug where the death of any squad results in the death of the founder.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 24, 2008, 06:41:00 pm
With all the options for violence it seems rather strange that there aren't more options to use sex to your advantage.  I always thought Conservatives love violence and act like they hate sex, while Liberals are the other way around?

What about hiring prostitutes and strippers to help bring in income, seduce conservatives, and train as assassins/bodyguards!?  Or is that already in the game?

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 24, 2008, 07:08:00 pm
You can:

1) Recruit prostitutes.

2) Order your people to engage in prostitution for money.

3) Seduce both Liberals and Conservatives as a form of recruitment. They act as full members in almost every capacity, but will be loyal specifically to their lover, rather than the organization in general, and so cannot be promoted.

4) Seduce armed Conservatives in order to gain the opportunity to kidnap them later when they're not capable of defending themselves.

You can not currently:

1) Rob, assassinate, or otherwise take advantage of seduced people other than recruiting them.

2) Turn seduced people into sleepers.

3) Use seduction to get access to restricted areas and steal or sabotage things.

4) Have/use strippers for anything.

[ May 24, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 24, 2008, 07:34:00 pm
I know you can use seduction to get new members but I was thinking more along the lines of sending individual members out to seduce big wigs and get information or whatever.  Didn't know you could get money from a prostitution racket.

It'd be cool to be able to designate a character as a bodyguard, who would maybe would get bonuses in combat and learn faster or something.  Of course you could only give body guards to important members and they couldn't be changed often,  You could only designate a small number per person depending on importance, maybe the founder could have three or four and most other important members could have one.

Does that sound cool?

[ May 24, 2008: Message edited by: Ioric Kittencuddler ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 24, 2008, 07:59:00 pm
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Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Hanure on May 24, 2008, 08:55:00 pm
ok, just a few ideas that have been bouncing around in the back of my head, as "Dude, wouldn't that be cool"

1: Not knowing who people are in encounters.

What I was thinking is people like agents, probably shouldn't show up as agents in some situations, so perhaps people should show up as, "Person" or maybe as, "Person?" showing that you don't know by glancing at them what thier job is. In continued thinking about this, I came up with this next idea.

2: New Encounter Action: Look at

Perhaps everyone shows up as just a person, maybe with thier name in grey, until you look at them, and then you would know some more about them, such as job and political views. The downside of this is that staring at people might attract attention from that person, assuming they notice, another use for the stealth skill perhaps? Of course this got me thinking about a third idea, all things come in threes you know.

3: New Skill: Perception

A skill that would allow you to notice more about someone when you, "look at" them, also I was thinking that a skill like this could fit in with the idea of not knowing the stats of new recruits right away. For more fun, maybe perception could be what allows you to know when the conservatives are suspicious, as well as when a massive responce is coming. I just liked the idea of someone wandering around not knowing of the impending doom about to befall them.

4: Organizational Help

I'd like to be able to change the order of my liberals on the activate page. It would just be a nice option, so I can group them by task, or place.

5: Suggestion for the multiple safehouse upgrade paths

I think after getting a buisiness front I ought to be able to upgrade it further, aka, buy more buildings, and make it a chain, or some other odds and ends to make my squad that much more invisible.

6: Site Suggestion

More sites than just the appartments should have more than one floor, also could upper floors have fire escape ladders, or even just windows to jump out of to avoid the mindless automatons on the floors below.

ok, I'm done for now. back to shedding some liberal light on those kept in the dark by evil conservatives. By shed some light I mean bust some heads, I'm one year in and have over 500 kills.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 24, 2008, 10:04:00 pm
With the appropriate option of jumping out of a fourth-story window. I think Conservatives in public places(apartments, for example) should try to capture you somehow.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 25, 2008, 04:44:00 am
You know, I just started up a new game with the latest version and saw something quite out of place when I pressed "L".  The President, VP, and Attorney General all had female names.  Something that obviously would not happen in a strongly conservative society like the game starts in.  I sure hope we get to fight sexual discrimination as well when sexes are added to the game.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Alexhans on May 25, 2008, 02:42:00 pm
quote:
 I think after getting a buisiness front I ought to be able to upgrade it further, aka, buy more buildings, and make it a chain....

If it is a business front, the objective is to hide the Ilegal actions you perform behind that front... Not start an capitalist enterprise...

 

quote:
Organizational Help  I'd like to be able to change the order of my liberals on the activate page. It would just be a nice option, so I can group them by task, or place.

We are all wishing some kind of way to organize this or at least be able to divide activists in groups to easyly assign tasks in bulk... but I think Johnathan's  view about this (and probably correct) is that if you could easyly have hundreds of activists making money like that the game would loose the escense of having squads changing the world by performing numerous acts of bravery   ;)  Nevertheless... Some kind of organization would be nice.

Some notes I made while playing the lcs_win32_3.12.1 just ideas & commentaries.
What about not being able to run anymore... Tired, broken leg, etc. So you have to either fight or give up.  
Someone Mentioned bribing? Bribe a police officer to let you go? (if it is a minor crime, of course, cant expect him to let me go if I just killed his partner)
Or spliting up while escaping so the officer only has to chase one person... and you can maybe save your founder if being chased.

by the way, Great addition to the text in chases.  I love the fence-climbing and other stuff.

Css should be able to imprison your activists and you should have to rescue them as when  imprisoned.

the decimal numbers in the skills is an excellent addition, as small as it may seem, it makes level gaining a much funnier experience.

Why dont you choose anymore the topic of conversation? to make it faster?

[ May 25, 2008: Message edited by: Alexhans ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 25, 2008, 03:18:00 pm
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Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 25, 2008, 03:22:00 pm
We can't have hundreds of activists anymore.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: BishopX on May 25, 2008, 05:20:00 pm
you can, it's just harder...
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Hanure on May 25, 2008, 06:49:00 pm
Here are some ideas to keep your guys organized.

My way that saved some time was giving people lame code names, like, "Kidnap 1", "Spray 5", "Hacker 3", even doing this I spend quite a while re-doing my squads, especially when I am moving people not doing site actions, and I want them to continue non-site actions, since this works when people are not in squads, and I use the option to re-locate people.

My latest idea is to recruit people in the order in which I will be having them do tasks. We'll see how that goes.

Also I didn't want a capitalist organization, I wanted to be able to buy new safe-houses.

EDIT: Sorry for the original ranting tone of this.

[ May 25, 2008: Message edited by: Hanure ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 25, 2008, 06:56:00 pm
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Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: BishopX on May 25, 2008, 08:00:00 pm
If you get enough police sleepers you'll always have warnings on police sieges.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 26, 2008, 01:17:00 pm
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Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on May 26, 2008, 03:02:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by penguinofhonor:
<STRONG>people aren't literally invisible to the police due to their 162 sleepers.</STRONG>

If you convert a whole department of detectives, I don't have a problem with you being "invisible"...
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Wooty on May 26, 2008, 03:09:00 pm
162 sleepers in the police is more than enough work to have the reward of nearly invisible safehouses in my opinion =/

But there should always be that small, small chance that you'll be raided.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on May 26, 2008, 04:11:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Ioric Kittencuddler:
<STRONG>You know, I just started up a new game with the latest version and saw something quite out of place when I pressed "L".  The President, VP, and Attorney General all had female names.  Something that obviously would not happen in a strongly conservative society like the game starts in.</STRONG>

Two words: Margret Thatcher. Though in general I'd agree.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on May 26, 2008, 04:36:00 pm
Regarding safehouse heat dispersal, I'd be against making the "fortification" and "front" tracks totally exclusive. Maybe make the initial choice between the two exclusive, but then allow some mixing of the two with watered-down results. Example: I take a front. Now I can't add tank traps, but I could throw in security cameras. Might raise a few eyebrows, though. "Why does the Unwashed Masses Soup Kitchen have security cameras in every room? I mean, I can understand them having that back room piled to the ceiling with rations, but ultra-modern security cameras everywhere? Hmm..." Basically, it seems like some of the options might be compatible with either, but it would degrade the effectiveness of one function or the other (though as I imply in the quote, I'm not sure Rations should necessarily do so).

Though as currently defined, it's hard to degrade fortification-style upgrading; it's all or nothing. What most quickly springs to my mind isn't feasible with the current system, but it seems intriguing: a fort, having high security and in its purest form, no contact with the outside world, should be very hard to infiltrate. I.e., the police manage to send 3 undercover agents into your soup kitchen and grab your founder (to fight their way out with as a meatshield) before anyone's the wiser. Or they covertly map the place so that when the Air Force joins them in a siege they know where to bomb. Or the CIA sneaks in and plants a packet or two of C4. Or the CCS strike team initiates a raid from the middle of the hideout with zero warning and non-squaded members spread out all over the map, scrambling to join the organized ones before they get gunned down. Or a smaller-scale CCS assassin team that either gets spotted at the door; or freely roams the base 'til they find a LCS Terrorist Leader; or gets halfway in before they catch whiff of Liberal Caution, depending on how guarded/open the safehouse is. Increased fortification elements could add to the difficulty progressively, and a fully isolated fortress would make infiltration nigh impossible (e.g., guards at the doors communicating with a central control, cameras everywhere, etc). If you wanted to set up a little printing press or clinic in the front room to add a small veneer of legitimacy, you have to make it easier for people to get in (whether covertly, or behind a battering ram).

Basically, more tradeoffs. Though for now, I'd just suggest having fronts able to have some security measures, at the cost of less heat dispersal. I'm not sure we could currently add more "functionality" to forts under the current system.

[ May 26, 2008: Message edited by: E. Albright ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on May 26, 2008, 05:05:00 pm
It also seems like varied fronts would be a good place to get some more usage out of "secondary" skills; the highest skill present adding/subtracting from the efficiency/cost/profit of a front. E.g.,

Food Co-Op: Business
Community Paper: Writing
Soup Kitchen: Cooking
Free Clinic: First Aid
Unitarian Church: Religion
Community Center: Teaching

(Or possibly throw Business onto all of these for the cost/profit part, and have the other as just its "effectiveness" in terms of propaganda and cover.)

The other thing with this is it could open up an action option for LCS members stationed there to actively support whatever activity is ostensibly being performed by non-member staff/volunteers, which would allow them to practice the operative skill instead of actively working for the LCS that day.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 26, 2008, 06:54:00 pm
Alright, hold on everyone.  All of these are great ideas.  But before any of them can truly be implemented, the code really needs to move into a more Object Oriented style.  Right now everything uses Enums and switches, so that makes it really hard to add new things.

For those of you who don't code, think of it like this:  It's the different between a gigantic stack of paper, and a shelf filled with labeled binders.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 26, 2008, 07:41:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by E. Albright:
<STRONG>

Two words: Margret Thatcher. Though in general I'd agree.</STRONG>


Um... the Prime Minister of England?  Believe it or not, America and England have not been the same country for hundreds of years.   ;)

I've got another idea once we add sexes.

In a super conservative society the sexes of people in certain professions would be heavily slanted with only females in degrading jobs like prostitutes and strippers and whatnot, and only men in 'respectable' jobs like corporate managers.  As you convert the country to a more liberal way of thinking things will start to even out.

[ May 27, 2008: Message edited by: Ioric Kittencuddler ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 27, 2008, 05:18:00 am
Alright I've been trying again, this time with a character that has 5 seduction and 4 interrogation I kidnapped a doctor with 11 wisdom and started out with everything in the book, then gradually wound it down but the bastard was announced missing on day nine, two days after his wisdom had had reached one.  Finally, he converted on day 18.

The next guy I got was a socialite whom with 8 wisdom whom I converted in 6 days and he became a sleeper.

It seems totally random.  The only thing that seems consistent is that if you don't succeed after nine days then they announce the person missing.

EDIT: Nevermind, that isn't even consistent.

[ May 27, 2008: Message edited by: Ioric Kittencuddler ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on May 27, 2008, 06:50:00 am
quote:
Ioric Kittencuddler on M. Thatcher:
<STRONG>Um... the Prime Minister of England?</STRONG>

I believe the idea here is that she was the head of the most conservative English government of the whole century, and yet she was a woman.
Ergo: conservative president can be a woman too. it's unlikely, but it can happen.
then again you guys never had a female president in your 200+ year history.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 27, 2008, 07:41:00 am
Exactly.  The US is not part of Britain anymore, and we're actually quite different.  We can't seem to escape our Puritan history no matter what.  Violence is A-OK, but Sex is a horrible, evil, traumatizing thing that no one should ever be exposed to.  Unless they don't tell anyone about it.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: JT on May 27, 2008, 11:21:00 am
"Sex is a horrible, evil, traumatizing thing that no one should ever be exposed to. Unless they don't tell anyone about it." --Ioric Kittencuddler, severely out of context


Canada also had a female Prime Minister once -- Kim Campbell -- who was also a conservative.  However, she wasn't anything special, and only lasted a few months due to a minority government.

In general, I'd suggest that the United States of Liberal Crime Squad play into gender stereotypes and sexuality stereotypes as much as possible.  Something along these lines:
* Arch-Conservative: 100% male, 0% female, 0% other
* Conservative: 90% male, 10% female, 0% other
* Moderate: 75% male, 20% female, 5% other
* Liberal: 45% male, 45% female, 10% other
* Elite Liberal: 33% male, 33% female, 33% other

[edit]Joke: for the last 1% of Elite Liberal, perhaps the president could be an animal.

[ May 27, 2008: Message edited by: JT ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: BishopX on May 27, 2008, 11:48:00 am
Ioric,

You only need to get their heart above their wisdom, you don't need to drop their wisdom to one.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on May 27, 2008, 12:58:00 pm
Conservative female leaders make a lot of sense actually.  It's an insidious plot by the conservatives to try and steal liberal votes.  Hence all the excitement over people like Alan Keyes and Colin Powell, who are, scientifically speaking, less black then wonderbread.  For a liberal party, nominating a minority or a woman is a liability most of the time.  That's what's so great about this next American election, there's no way we can lose, so we're swinging for the fences.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Alexhans on May 27, 2008, 01:04:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Ioric Kittencuddler:
<STRONG>Alright I've been trying again, this time with a character that has 5 seduction and 4 interrogation I kidnapped a doctor with 11 wisdom and started out with everything in the book, then gradually wound it down but the bastard was announced missing on day nine, two days after his wisdom had had reached one.  Finally, he converted on day 18.

[ May 27, 2008: Message edited by: Ioric Kittencuddler ]</STRONG>


The thing is that you have to build both persuasion (brownies is good) and interrogation stats (tend to someone without converting him for long time), have high heart, and if the Kidnapped is a Big Character (CEO, Eminent scientist, etc) Youll have to have the skills that he knows to impress him... (Business, Science, etc).  I also use many people on the conversions (thought Im not sure it changes anything.)  In 1 or 2 days ANY hostage I take has 1 wisdom, beating... hehe.

Note that I'm saying all this out of experience... I didn't look at the code.  But I can usually get the sleepers I need with work & planiffication.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 27, 2008, 04:09:00 pm
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Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 27, 2008, 05:11:00 pm
Organization sieges?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 27, 2008, 05:56:00 pm
Yeah; re-doing... a... lot.

Don't use the latest revisions, MASSIVE code overhauls.  Massive.

Yeah, you need a sitemaps.txt for it, it should be somewhere.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on May 27, 2008, 06:30:00 pm
Man, what features are ya planning?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on May 27, 2008, 09:19:00 pm
By the sounds of it, code architecture refactoring; i.e., nothing the end user will directly experience, and will only indirectly later when the updating and bugfixing is prompter, cleaner, and more consistent.

Which is good.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 27, 2008, 09:48:00 pm
Hey, I just realized something.  Where are the chop shops for stolen cars?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on May 28, 2008, 09:54:00 am
quote:
Originally posted by E. Albright:
<STRONG>By the sounds of it, code architecture refactoring; i.e., nothing the end user will directly experience, and will only indirectly later when the updating and bugfixing is prompter, cleaner, and more consistent.

Which is good.</STRONG>


Pretty much, yeah.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Skeeblix on May 28, 2008, 10:05:00 am
quote:
Originally posted by Ioric Kittencuddler:
<STRONG>Hey, I just realized something.  Where are the chop shops for stolen cars?</STRONG>

Something to come soon enough, says Jonathan.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on May 28, 2008, 10:26:00 pm
Grand Theft Liberal!
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: infested corpse on May 29, 2008, 02:21:00 am
Hello!
First of all, thanks for the great game! ^_^ Now, a few suggestions:
1) Make more choices. For example, make an opportunity to kill the hostage right in place, and not only when negotiating with Consies. More choices - more fun!  :)
2) Is it possible to advance combat system, so you can choose targets for you squad? Because I don't want to attack Engineers and Programmers, while there is a Soldier, shooting M-16 at me  :)
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 31, 2008, 04:14:00 am
I had another idea about sexual inequality (When sexes are added) that could make a the late game harder and the early game easier.  What if men in a more strongly conservative society were less likely to consider women a threat?  They could be much more likely to believe bluffs, and if they were caught in a place they obviously weren't supposed to be they would be thrown out rather than jailed if they gave up and the enemy would be slow to respond if they attacked, most likely trying to use fists or something instead of pulling out a gun.

I dunno, does this sound like I really stupid idea?  I'm just trying to think of all the angles.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 31, 2008, 07:44:00 am
quote:
Originally posted by BishopX:
<STRONG>Ioric,

You only need to get their heart above their wisdom, you don't need to drop their wisdom to one.</STRONG>


This just in.  I beat up a security guard at the Sweat Shop and took them hostage.  I then completely forgot about them for three days.  On the fourth day I accidentally pressed 2 instead of 6 and realized I still had them, and they were heavily wounded.  I then tried to convert them with restraints food, water, and lights on.  On the seventh day I got their heart to eleven while their wisdom was at ten.  on the eighth day they were announced missing.  On the ninth or tenth day, I can't exactly remember, they were converted.

So no, not even making their heart become higher than their wisdom is enough.   :(

[ May 31, 2008: Message edited by: Ioric Kittencuddler ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 31, 2008, 08:33:00 am
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Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 31, 2008, 11:51:00 am
quote:
Originally posted by penguinofhonor:
<STRONG>

I'm pretty sure that getting their heart above their wisdom is a requirement, and the more their heart is above their wisdom, the higher the chance of you converting them is. Though it's still chance.</STRONG>


No one ever said anything about chance.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Wooty on May 31, 2008, 04:28:00 pm
I've never had it work with heart lower than wisdom..99% of my conversions are when I lower wisdom to 1-2 and raise heart just over that.

I'd love to see more uses for having lots of money. Hiring mercenaries to harrass the CCS or jailbreak your guys, buying a car, more upgrades to safehouses, bribing judges and cops to make them partial sleepers...

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 31, 2008, 09:58:00 pm
Interrogations certainly aren't totally random. In fact, all of the turning points are totally fixed and predictable. There are three ways to do it, two of them similar to one another, but getting wisdom to one definitely isn't one of them. In fact, there is benefit to not taking that approach, if you can help it, though it certainly helps to drop wisdom as far as possible if you want a fast conversion, which is why I recommend it, as most people want sleepers -- the biggest danger is that you'll wipe their heart out in the process, and that sabotages the entire process, since as others have said, it's about the relationship between heart and wisdom, not their absolute values.

The trick where you get benefit for not wiping their heart is this: Though you can't turn people into sleepers, you CAN convince the police that no kidnapping took place and they abandoned their old life to join you of their own accord if their final wisdom is three or more and their final heart is eight or more. This is difficult to do, especially because wisdom will tend to drop of its own accord when they're being persuaded, and can easily go below three. You'll get a special message in this case.

With or without that trick, getting heart above wisdom is necessary for one of the mechanisms to convert them, but it's not the conversion point itself. The conversion point is heart five above wisdom. Yes, that is quite difficult to achieve before the media reports their kidnapping. You will have at least 4 and no more than 17 days before it's publicized as a kidnapping. This is on a probability curve somewhat weighted toward the lower end.

The other two mechanisms are both related to the degree to which the character likes you; there's two levels of like needed, and which one you have to beat depends on how effective your talking is. Once they are getting "clingy", a successful talk about the issues will instantly convert them. It takes a few more tries to get it if your talks are unsuccessful., it will take a few more unsuccessful talks that result in them breaking down, since the amount of like needed to convert them when they're unhappy is a bit higher. Both are very similar triggers, they just have different like thresholds.

Regardless of the details of how it works now, interrogation does need continued revision. It needs to be more communicative, for one. A couple of bars on the bottom of the screen giving a visual feedback on the state of the interrogation would be a godsend -- things like how close they are to conversion by alignment shift, and a visual depiction of how much they like or hate the interrogator. Feedback like that helps the game feel less random, and more under the control of the player. In games, as in life, a feeling of lack of control is just frustrating. As LCS is largely a strategy game, knowing what effect everything you do has on the game is crucial. Not every number and formula has to be exposed -- eg, the die roll for whether a skill check succeeds or not doesn't have to be shown -- but everything that isn't shown must be noncritical to decision making. Sacrificing clarity for immersion doesn't work, since it simply makes the game less fun.

Additionally, the balance and options need work. Most of the options are just fun toys that in practice do very similar things to one another. Having options be more consciously strategic and have more clear and direct effect, for example adding options back in that cost money, will also help.

[ May 31, 2008: Message edited by: Jonathan S. Fox ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on May 31, 2008, 11:40:00 pm
Ah, thanks for explaining that.  I guess I'm just gonna need to work at it.

What did you think about my post at the top of the page?

Is it too stupid?

[ June 01, 2008: Message edited by: Ioric Kittencuddler ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on June 01, 2008, 10:13:00 am
quote:
Originally posted by Ioric Kittencuddler:
<STRONG>Ah, thanks for explaining that.  I guess I'm just gonna need to work at it.

What did you think about my post at the top of the page?

Is it too stupid?

[ June 01, 2008: Message edited by: Ioric Kittencuddler ]</STRONG>


I would think it would make them more likely to jail for longer periods of time, honestly.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on June 01, 2008, 01:11:00 pm
So that's how I have 7 wis, 2 heart sleepers.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 01, 2008, 04:45:00 pm
I don't think it's stupid, but I think it would vary. Perhaps in an office building you could get passed off as "just some secretary" and not very threatening, but women would be MORE suspicious in a factory or the gentleman's club where it's all men (in the latter case, it'd be men only as a rule) under highly segregated conditions. Your point about the amount of force varying is interesting; I'd actually take it further and make it so that the more dangerous the LCS is believed to be, the more viciously they'd respond in general. So in that aspect, it's not based on gender, but that same dynamic where response is more violent and more swift could still be there.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on June 01, 2008, 05:43:00 pm
Oh yeah, well I took women not being allowed in places as a given, but it generally seems more conservative to treat men and women differently.  To me at least.  I was also trying to think of a way that you could make the conservative nightmare a little easier compared to the end game liberal paradise, or whatever it's called

The idea of making response stronger based on perceived threat would work great with this, see, women would just be perceived as less of a threat in conservative society.  Most of the time at least.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: beorn080 on June 01, 2008, 06:46:00 pm
Alright while working today I had several ideas for making the endgame harder.

First is non lethal weapons at more liberal levels of weapon control. I know its been bandied about but the idea is that things like tasers are more effective at stopping a person cold then a gun with one hit.  Either they could do massive amounts of subdual damage(DnD term for non lethal) or give the person a special state that clears when they leave the site. Either way the person hit would be effectively dead for at least a couple of turns up to leaving the site. If you can't haul the person off the site then they don't die but get captured by the police. Not sure how using it as a weapon of the LCS would work but there that is.

Stupid lack of sleep cant remember my second idea.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on June 01, 2008, 07:27:00 pm
Actually as of 3.5 the D&D term for Non-Lethal is Non-Lethal.  :D

Cool idea though.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Wooty on June 01, 2008, 08:48:00 pm
As long as the endgame takes decades of holding W, we shouldn't be upping the difficulty.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Hanure on June 01, 2008, 09:10:00 pm
Actually, making the endgame increasingly more difficult, would cause me to be quite happy to play through the whole thing, rather than just trying to figure out how many sleepers I need to win. Also since conservatives now have a form of juice, can some liberals start out with some juice?

As a side note, I really like the way that sex is not tracked at all.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: beorn080 on June 01, 2008, 09:14:00 pm
Sorry bout that. Last time I played was 3.0 and non lethal was subdual damage. Not sure why. Last DM kicked me out cause of too much power at level 10. Decanter of endless water + summoned fire elemental + wall of force sphere mode = steam bomb that levels towns. But I digress.

The reason why it takes so long is because of the way the system works and not the fault of hard endgame. Maybe randomize when congress and supreme court acts on legislation. Maybe make every day have a .01% chance for one of the branches to act on one piece of legislation. Perhaps a wait till end of month button. But dont talk about the endgame as just holding down W. Though unfortunatly that is all it ends up being at times.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 01, 2008, 10:00:00 pm
The purpose of reversing the difficulty scale so that it's actually interesting, rather than a hold down W game. Of course, sleepers will have to be altered so they aren't the one great solution to the game, but there's no point in doing that while there isn't anything to take their place.

Having a wait one week button or a wait one month button isn't a bad idea if it'll tick off the days visually (very quickly) and interrupt if anything important happens. In fact, I think it would be very good for the game. Though it's not meant to be a game about long waiting periods, it still happens, especially due to the time scale of political movement in the game. Just letting the player press less buttons would be a blessing here.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on June 01, 2008, 10:21:00 pm
Why don't we have a wait X days button?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on June 02, 2008, 09:20:00 am
Or a go into hiding command.  As the LCS leader, I know we're really only needed once an election cycle.  I can therefore safetly tell my people to disperse for 20 months at a time and head up into the mountains to practice buddhism and basket weaving.

Also, is it possible to cancel your lease on an appartment?

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 02, 2008, 11:31:00 am
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Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on June 02, 2008, 04:42:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by mainiac:
<STRONG>Or a go into hiding command.  As the LCS leader, I know we're really only needed once an election cycle.  I can therefore safetly tell my people to disperse for 20 months at a time and head up into the mountains to practice buddhism and basket weaving.</STRONG>

I would LOVE to eventually see a "go underground X long" command. There should probably be a risk that less juicy/passionate members would sell out and not come back, with a separate chance of said selling out resulting in betrayal to authorities (versus them just taking a 9-5 and trying to forget their "follies of youthful indiscretion (and/or criminal liability)". Selling out should probably be a factor of not just juice but profession; an inactive, non-brainwashed office worker/programmer/college student/teenager would be much more vulnerable to "sensibility" when not actively engaged than, say, a hippie, transient, or gang member. Age would also count for something; if you joined the LCS at 49, you're less likely to repent and try to settle down than someone who joined at 17/21/25...

[ June 02, 2008: Message edited by: E. Albright ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on June 02, 2008, 07:58:00 pm
I think that the middle-aged to old would be more likely to settle down again.

However, if that Collage Student just got out of collage after he resumed his education, and he couldn't find a 9-5 career, I'd say he'd be likely to join back up(if only to get a roof over his head).

It'd be intresting if stats like Intelligence, Wisdom and Heart played into it. Like, if I have a smart Collage student and I disband for three years,, he'd be more likely to pick up a 9-5 job than the one with lower intelligence.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Elmyr on June 10, 2008, 03:49:00 am
My apologies if either of these have been brought up. I'm usually a fairly regular lurker, but it's been over a month and this thread has been busy.

1) A wheelchair issue (I'm still playing the "new interrogation" version...alpha8 is it? And haven't d/l'ed the latest yet)...if the country is predominantly conservative still, few if any locations should be wheelchair accessible.

2) I think one thing LCS really needs, I haven't noticed much recent discussion of it, besides aging justices, is more direct political activism. It doesn't even require politicians to become more than just a name. Assassinations, bribes, and any other interaction is just an event.

3) I could really use an improved interface on view active liberals. Being able to reorder the list would be helpful, as would searching or sorting by attributes/skills. When I do the stupid little projects I like to do, like maxing the rifle skill of all my 25 agi liberals, which currently numbers ~15. It's really tedious to first scroll through them from the stat view, note the name, and then find the guy again on 30 pages full of Diwakers.

4) I know a rigid hierarchy is too conservative, but the ability to appoint a few officers would be nice, e.g. a lieutenant who could easily step in as interim or replacement leader without everyone losing touch if the leader is arrested or killed.

5) Has anything been done to differentiate disguise from stealth? They both only seem to be used when entering a location and not when leaving. It would make more sense if you used disguise on the way to, say, the AM radio station studio, and stealth to avoid encounters on the way out. (assuming you're afraid of pitchforks...speaking of which, I live in Texas and know a lot of rednecks... every single one has at least a few guns and no pitchfork).


And one question...does the wheelchair thing mean limbs are getting blown off again? I used to love having lots of maimed liberals running around, but in the version I'm currently still playing, all of the 500+ LCS members in my current game have all of their limbs, though a very large number have had noses blown off, and several have had their faces blown off, including my poor leader, Mao.

[ June 10, 2008: Message edited by: Elmyr ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ruttiger on June 10, 2008, 03:08:00 pm
I've been playing again and I love the new stuff, particularly the CCS being added.  A few things come to mind as being problematic.  

One is control.  There should definitely be a way to reorder your list of liberals, or maybe the list should automatically sort based on the location of your liberals.  Also, and this would change how enjoyable the game is greatly, there should be an option you can set for every single liberal as to what their default option instead of just idling would be.  That way you can set your active squads do various things, be it repairing clothing, spraying graffiti, or writing for the liberal guardian, without having to retask them every single time they have to go out and cause trouble.  

I also think it should be reams harder to change public opinion.  As is, I can shift opinion 20% in a day.  Because of this I can build a squad of heavy hitters in my first year two months before election day and have an elite liberal president right away.  Also, and I may be wrong about this, but I think the number of conservatives that appear are tied directly to public opinion.  While this makes sense in a way, it makes the game less fun, as it's actually difficult to keep yourself in a situation where there's a decent number of targets.  Everyone who doesn't absolutely have to be conservative for their profession isn't, so in the end you only fight cops and scientists and corporate managers.  I know this is intentional, that the game starts hard and gets easier as public opinion shifts in your favor, but it's not as fun later on when you aren't going to be swarmed by people of every profession.  

Also, you should keep adding in new things you can do in the game.  New locations are nice, but what's really nice is new things at old locations.  Maybe the corporate HQ should also have a computer you can crash, and maybe the police station should have an evidence room (which of course would always be guarded) that you can retrieve some of your lost equipment from, or maybe just raid to steal whatever from.  I've mentioned metal detectors would be nice (go through one, and it doesn't matter if your weapons are concealed or put away entirely, but a good bluff should still be able to get you through.) More stuff to spend money on would be nice too.  Maybe hire a PR firm for a small popularity boost.  Maybe bring in non LCS members to teach them at an inflated price.  How about a basement you can dig beneath safe house, that could then be expanded into a shelter, which would protect your liberals from airstrikes (there are still airstrikes during long sieges, right?). Also, maybe allow for expanded business fronts (they would cost money on a daily or monthly basis, since your would have to make things look more legit, but they would also work
much better.)  

I love the CCS, and think you should also add more of that sort of thing in.  Other factions wouldn't even need to be violent, you could make a non violent groups for each degree of political leaning (one for elite conservative, one for regular conservatives, one for centrists, one for liberals, and one for elite liberals.)  This would also add a difficult choice, as you would eventually want to off the liberal and centrist faction when you are past their level liberalness, but there would be some major popularity hits involved with attacking people who by all rights should be your allies, or at least neutral to you.

Oh, and please do not add gender to the game.  It's a great joke that gender is ignored, very liberal indeed.  It also makes me feel fine giving liberals code names that imply both gender and profession (guess what I call my prostitutes?).

Anyway, enough of what I'd like.  Your doing great work on this game.  Keep it up.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: JT on June 12, 2008, 01:40:00 am
quote:
Originally posted by Elmyr:
<STRONG>1) A wheelchair issue (I'm still playing the "new interrogation" version...alpha8 is it? And haven't d/l'ed the latest yet)...if the country is predominantly conservative still, few if any locations should be wheelchair accessible.
[snip]
And one question...does the wheelchair thing mean limbs are getting blown off again? I used to love having lots of maimed liberals running around, but in the version I'm currently still playing, all of the 500+ LCS members in my current game have all of their limbs, though a very large number have had noses blown off, and several have had their faces blown off, including my poor leader, Mao.</STRONG>

I've seen limbs blown off, but it's usually fatal.  However, wheelchairs are indeed needed for missing legs and/or spinal injuries.


To flesh out finding a wheelchair a little more, I'd like to see a couple more possibilities for getting one.

1) Steal a wheelchair from a hospital during a site action.  This is alienating, however, because it says you think you deserve a wheelchair more than anyone else who is injured!
2) Apply to a charity to get a wheelchair.  It's free, but can take anywhere from a day to a couple of months.
3) Buy a wheelchair.  $350.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on June 12, 2008, 09:59:00 am
I think the squad shouldn't alienate people doing things that are right in it's MO.  For instance, you go to a factory and bust up some equipment in front of moderates.  Yeah, it's a crime, but you are the crime squad, it's all just getting your message out.  Besides, after you spray graffitti and leave the site, it won't take them too long to figure out who the criminals are.  I say crimes in front of moderates should trigger conservative alarm but not alienation.  Murder should still be able to alienate people, but with other crimes it don't make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Wiles on June 12, 2008, 11:26:00 am
I find it's sometimes hard to find/raise certain skills. I was thinking that maybe  it would be interesting if there was a library in the game where you could liberally liberate some books to learn from. Learning through experience would still be quicker. Perhaps book learning should also have a low skill cap. Maybe some books would only be available if country is more liberal. Different books would raise different skills, you could have books like: Jim-bob's guide to bear huntin' (rifle skill), Kama Sutra (seduction), How to win friends and influence people (persuasion) etc...

Reading some conservative books might have a small chance of raising your wisdom, but you could couteract that by reading something like Turkey soup for the liberal soul.

[ June 12, 2008: Message edited by: Wiles ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Brendan on June 13, 2008, 11:19:00 am
I dunno if it's been suggested before, but maybe you could include some kind of bombing feature. For example, if you managed to smuggle in a bomb and placed it anywhere it would detonate after you leave the area and be in the news, causing damage and casualties. To balance it out, you could have searches for bombs in high security areas...sneaking a dirty bomb into Intelligence HQ would naturally be much more difficult than leaving a satchel charge by a bench in the park. Perhaps there could also be 'targetted' bombing, for example, planting a bomb at a critical point in the nuclear power plant to cause a meltdown, or impeding the intelligence agency's efforts by blowing up their supercomputer.

To slip bombs past guards and security checkpoints you could use sleepers...that'd be interesting and it'd give you a reason to turn security guards and other rank-and-file conservatives, as opposed to the usual PR kidnappings where you make sleeper news anchors, CEOs, radio personalities, judges etcetera.

The impact of the targetted bombing could be different depending on the public's opinions. If everyone fears and loathes the intelligence service, blowing up their supercomputer would seem heroic rather than treasonous. Causing a nuclear power plant meltdown or killing random people in the park would probably be seen with a rather dim view by the general public. Other actions like blowing up corporate accounting departments could be seen as neutral if people don't hate the corps, and heroic if they do.

[ June 13, 2008: Message edited by: Brendan ]

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on June 13, 2008, 12:12:00 pm
I was actually thinking about that.  Bombing is a definite must; it will be added at some point.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on June 13, 2008, 05:50:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Brendan:
<STRONG>Causing a nuclear power plant meltdown or killing random people in the park would probably be seen with a rather dim view by the general public.</STRONG>

For the power plant, that would depend on whether 1) the bombing was detected as such (i.e., bombing or dangerous negligence as the cause of the meltdown?) and 2) if the power company/police were credible enough to be believed upon said detection.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Brendan on June 13, 2008, 06:22:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by E. Albright:
<STRONG>

For the power plant, that would depend on whether 1) the bombing was detected as such (i.e., bombing or dangerous negligence as the cause of the meltdown?) and 2) if the power company/police were credible enough to be believed upon said detection.</STRONG>


Those are really good points, actually. I think that if you had a well-made bomb, it would completely destroy itself upon detonating leaving behind no incriminating evidence, and if it wasn't so well-made (maybe bombs themselves would come from setting up a bomb production operation in one of your safehouses, and the science skill of the liberals making the bombs would be taken into account) it would leave behind components of the bomb so that the conservatives would be able to figure out it was a bombing and not an accidental meltdown.

Although I suppose if you had a complete meltdown the conservatives would never be able to tell the difference, considering it wouldn't exactly be ideal crime scene investigation conditions. So maybe the strength of the bomb could also be taken into account here, and if the bomb was not catastrophic enough to destroy all of the cooling systems or the control rods or however nuclear reactors work, you would end up with a power cut and a sort of 'state of emergency' at the power plant. You would garner some support for the banning of nuclear power anyway, but it would be traceable and people wouldn't treat it with as much as a knee-jerk; maybe it would put public interest in the issue of nuclear power to high, but not through the roof like an actual meltdown would.

Also, the second idea would give everyone another really good incentive to completely discredit the individual organizations.

Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on June 13, 2008, 07:45:00 pm
um... if the meltdown was indeed complete, that would be the end of Little Rock, AR. or wherever your LCS is. (well not really, but it would suddenly be a good idea to take a 50 year vacation)
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on June 13, 2008, 08:29:00 pm
Maybe when the option comes, we can switch to another city, meltdown or no meltdown?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Brendan on June 15, 2008, 10:28:29 am
That would be interesting; especially with there probably being a nuclear powerplant in every city in an arch-conservative society (presumably, an elite liberal society would dismantle them over time). Destroy conservatives through nuclear holocaust! :D
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on June 15, 2008, 12:11:37 pm
I think it'd be cool to set up a LCS that would run independently in each city, while you and your core group of Liberals go around spreading the message.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on June 15, 2008, 12:23:45 pm
Destroy conservatives through nuclear holocaust! :D
Fallout Crime Squad!
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b84/a1s/FCS.jpg)
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ioric Kittencuddler on June 15, 2008, 12:27:18 pm
At least Ian won't shoot you in the back.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Nonanonymous on June 23, 2008, 07:19:14 pm
So, how about some more masks that fit the theme of a Halloween store better than just Satan and politicians?  My human leader of a squad of purple gorillas is going to feel out of place without an ape mask.  Also, maybe a different slot would be possible for the masks, so that you don't get shot up as bad when people can't see your face?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Skeeblix on June 24, 2008, 05:17:40 am
In this same vein of adding the mask's own equip slot, maybe make them actually useful. Wearing them on a site action lowers heat on those Liberals by x% or something more complex if you can come up with something better. It would only make sense, considering you would be harder to identify with a mask on.

All I can think of is that one movie where the bank robbers are all wearing president masks, though I can't remember the title. And I mean, what could be more fun than a squad of Nixons shooting up the police station?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Nonanonymous on June 24, 2008, 03:07:51 pm
A squad of JFK's shooting up a CCS hideout?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Gantolandon on June 24, 2008, 04:06:06 pm
Better... a squad of Reagans shooting up a CSS hideout. ;D
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Lord Nightmare on June 26, 2008, 08:03:37 pm
...(The gender symbols are not in the ASCII table, and LCS does not use Unicode for display, so they aren't really an option.)...

Um, yes they are. they're ASCII CodePage437 symbols 0x0B (male) and 0x0C (female). Alternate gender symbols are also available in codepage437: 0xA6 and 0xA7 (the underlined a and o, which mean feminine and masculine respectively I believe. Unicode calls them the FEMININE ORDINAL INDICATOR and MASCULINE... respectively)

LN
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Sergius on June 27, 2008, 03:40:23 pm
...(The gender symbols are not in the ASCII table, and LCS does not use Unicode for display, so they aren't really an option.)...

Um, yes they are. they're ASCII CodePage437 symbols 0x0B (male) and 0x0C (female). Alternate gender symbols are also available in codepage437: 0xA6 and 0xA7 (the underlined a and o, which mean feminine and masculine respectively I believe. Unicode calls them the FEMININE ORDINAL INDICATOR and MASCULINE... respectively)

LN
The first 16 characters in the ASCII table are reserved (I think the female char means "line break" or something), I'm there's a way to print them but I don't know if ncurses can do it (I suppose it can, since a lot of roguelikes use curses).

About the ordinals, they don't mean "female" or "male" by themselves like the first symbols. They're called ordinals because they're used for abbreviations like 4° or 8ª (I don't think english uses them tho).
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 27, 2008, 09:54:52 pm
When I say "the ASCII table" I'm not referring to any old table that emulates ASCII, nor even code page 437 specifically, which is the particular extension that the Windows version of LCS uses. I'm referring to ye olde standard 7-bit ASCII table with 94 boring printable characters in the range 0x20 to 0x7E, because that is what I draw on when working on LCS. The reason for this is because unlike ASCII and Unicode, various ASCII-like extensions are character set dependent and don't port consistently.

If you play the Linux or OS X ports of the game, you'll see a lot of places where the game is substantially uglier than in the Windows port because the port has to substitute similar-looking standard ASCII for code page 437 characters that were built into the Windows version because they looked fancy, but didn't display correctly when moved to a new platform. The newspaper, site mode, and the pictures and movies are all plagued by this problem.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on June 30, 2008, 12:03:42 am
There's a Mac port of the game?

I don't think a well placed bomb should be able to look like an accident.  Even if you made it out of flammable materials there'd still be an obvious epicenter to the explosion.  Disguising the causes would require an elaborate set up probably with several bombs at stress locations and would be closer to sabotage then simple bombing really.

Elaborate sabotage could be cool though.  You step out of a factory as the cops pull up.  Then the factory suddenly collapses behind you and you escape in the cloud of smoke.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: beorn080 on June 30, 2008, 06:01:42 pm
I think by bomb they are talking about a high temperature incinderary device. A pound of thermite with a remote detonator doesnt explode but burns at an incredible temperature until the thermite has been consumed.  Even works underwater and could eat through steel.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on June 30, 2008, 08:57:26 pm
Yeah, but steel that's been melted by thermite wouldn't look too much like steel that's given out do to repeated stress.  It would be apparent at the macroscopic level and unmistakable at the microscopic.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on July 01, 2008, 10:26:44 am
Again, one very major point is that such a portrayal would rely upon an undermining of police/corporate credibility: "the pigs are lyin' again, man" and/or "the suits are sayin' there was a bomb to hide their incompetence/planted a bomb to further their agenda". If the populace has faith in police and corporate credibility, it wouldn't matter if it was stressed metal, so long as the police announced they'd found signs of a bomb, and no amount of eyewitness reports by Union Workers would change their minds.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Ruttiger on July 02, 2008, 02:16:00 pm
Converting people to liberals by way of speech or guitar should give the same juice bonuses killing them would.  It would allow teams of scientists and judges to be viable from the get go. 
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: JT on July 05, 2008, 07:58:28 pm
"the suits are sayin' there was a bomb to hide their incompetence/planted a bomb to further their agenda"

...'Cept it was the hippies claiming that there were bombs, and the suits claiming that there weren't.

Oh, wait, that's the WTC.  Never mind. =)
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on July 08, 2008, 10:43:56 am
I don't think faith in the police would make people ignore the truth or refuse to believe it.  While in our current vaguely balanced political environment, there is a 20-30% of the population on either side who will blindly follow their leader's words in spite of the facts, 40-60% of the population will still be swayed by obvious fact when presented to them.  It's the heart and souls of those people that the LCS fights for anyway.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on July 08, 2008, 12:02:29 pm
Converting people to liberals by way of speech or guitar should give the same juice bonuses killing them would.
the juice gain from kills is balanced by the great heat gain from it, while the most you guitarists can be chraged with is disturbing the peace...
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on July 12, 2008, 12:15:42 pm
Is there any juice gain at all?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on July 12, 2008, 01:53:50 pm
the gain is twofold.
during combat they will fight for you. and after combat you can recruit/date them (like normal liberals). (this is how you can date all the giant mosquitoes and tanks)
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Eita on July 13, 2008, 01:23:12 am
Wow. You must have gods of rock in your liberal ranks.

Anyway, I think I have a bug here. When I tell a liberal to teach a class, I hit 'w', and... nothing happens.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Reign on your Parade on July 13, 2008, 03:55:02 pm
Just a simple thing here... I was mildly surprised there wasn't a Guy Fawkes mask available in that large list of masks.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on July 13, 2008, 07:03:52 pm
the game is pre-V. (the movie, not the novel)
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Reign on your Parade on July 13, 2008, 07:14:17 pm
Yeah, I know, but I was more surprised that it hadn't been suggested and implemented since then.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on July 14, 2008, 03:30:37 am
it has been suggested, and it's really easy to implement too. maybe once the migrating to OO structure is done someone can do it. ::)
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Fieari on July 20, 2008, 08:13:08 pm
How is the OO code coming along anyway?  I might like to try my hand at tinkering with the code, but I wouldn't want to do something and then have it be reverted due to OO.  OO would be easier to work with too.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Puzzlemaker on July 20, 2008, 09:58:06 pm
How is the OO code coming along anyway?  I might like to try my hand at tinkering with the code, but I wouldn't want to do something and then have it be reverted due to OO.  OO would be easier to work with too.

Framework is all in.  If you want to take a look at it, feel free!  All that needs to get done with it is moving the old stuff to the new OO framework.  Which is time consuming and annoying to do.  I did a little, so you can look at it and see how it was done.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Earthquake Damage on July 27, 2008, 05:26:52 pm
I just realized a location we sorely need:  a bank.  No armed robbery is complete without a fat sack of cash with a green $ on it.  Knocking off armored cars is another potential source of fun and profit for the squad.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: a1s on July 27, 2008, 05:35:05 pm
yes. SLA did that all the time, so LCS should too.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Earthquake Damage on July 28, 2008, 10:00:50 am
While it's on my mind, I'd like to second the Guy Fawkes mask proposal and suggest a gas mask while I'm at it.  Why?  Because it'd be fun.  You could also throw in Ninja Turtle and Batman masks while you're at it.  :P

Also, bug report:  I just now found goods underneath an apartment door.  Literally.  I opened the door and goods appeared on the same tile.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Alexhans on August 13, 2008, 10:56:18 am
mmmm playing LCs.12.2  and looking throught the code a little I've noticed that the aren't any kind of Tazers or other ways to take you out.... No Unconsciousness in fights... You take a punch and you die from the wounds or you survive but never get knocked out? Am i wrong? 
  Wouldn't it be fun to have people pass out in certain circumstances... It would also make battles in the later part of the game where youre really strong a little more fun (gun control).  Passing out could be momentary, and in 3 or 4 turns the could come back to their senses.  But if they were facing police, could be inmediatly arrested... or giving your squad the option to hauling them as if they were save from jail... or even leaving them behind...
  Wich brings me to another idea... Isn't it annoying that if you want one guy who happens to be near death (in your six men squad) to give up in order to survive you have to give up the whole squad... Maybe give us the possibility of having one caught and the others keep on.

Well, enough of brainstorming... I gotta go...

                  Farewell

EDIT: getting up to date in the curses forums I found out that Fox did allready think about of implementing tasers (or with a z, I'm not really sure how to spell it...) so I'll just patiently wait... because so far... he's never let me down.  :)
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: rylen on August 17, 2008, 09:50:03 am
First game-play post.  A friend mentioned the SA thread and got me hooked.  I’ve noticed some suggestions being considered and wanted to add a few. 

  • Bookkeeper:  The person doing this activity helps you understand what the organization is doing.  At low skill levels he (or she) breaks down the monthly budgets, so you know how much is being raised by your musicians and so forth.  At medium skill levels, she (or he) can give daily info by person.  And at high, actually boost how much they make.  Sadly, this uses and trains Business skill; and, since conservatives are EVIL, once he passes an unknown point, he starts skimming off the top.

The next two are substantial.
  • Organizations:  I recently read Rick Perlstein’s “Before the Storm” about the Goldwater presidential campaign.  If anyone wants a good story about a semi-secret cabal plotting to take over an organization and drive their agenda, read his account of how the conservative Republicans seized control of the GOP .  In an early chapter, he discusses the tactics they used at meetings which they learned from one member, a former US communist.  For instance going to meetings and fanning out so when they speak out and agree with each other, it sounds like much of the room is taking part.  And, after seizing the chairmanship, scheduling meetings in small rooms they can pack with members.

    The LCS can also try to take over and manipulate organizations.  Organizations meet at regular intervals and have their own agendas.  Some, like Unions, the ACLU, and Greenpeace are already pretty liberal and a source for funding and manpower.  Others, like the Chamber of Commerce, the Fraternal Order of Police, and the Federalist Society are solidly conservative; but getting influence can strongly help the liberal agenda.  And many groups are moderate, like the PTA, Rotary, and the Masons.  Or neutral like gangs.
  • Conversation:  Current conversations are strictly one on one and repetitive.  A conversation mini-game might slow things down a bit, but it would bring variety.  Each member of the your group would have some conversational skills and a role based on the tactics you choose.  You might try to get you best talker to speak directly with a single person, while the rest of the group occupies the others.  Or you could debate with all of them.  The more conservatives present, the harder the audience, so you could try to make those sourpusses leave.

Hope some of these are interesting,
R
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: EuchreJack on August 17, 2008, 11:37:37 pm
Speaking of assemblies, what if the recruiter had the option of making the first contact with potential recruits (after inviting them to talk later, of course) be a large meeting instead of one-on-one.  Then, after sorting through the recruits a little bit, the meeting could take the one-on-one perspective they currently have.  What would be really cool is if we could specify one or two attributes and skills to look for in the new recruit, and focus mostly on them.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: cowofdoom78963 on August 20, 2008, 08:21:04 am

Im not sure if this has been suggested but, has anyone noticed that if your character gets caught by the police prostituting, selling drugs, spraying graffiti or whatever else they get arrested automaticaly?

Even if their a heavily armed elite liberal thats killed more cops then he can count, they will just give up!

I think that if the police catch you doing something against the law, it should be treated like when a liberal steals a car and gets caught rather then just go to a automatic surrender.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: eliteliberal2008 on October 05, 2008, 08:28:30 pm
I think we should add more issues:

-Marijuana or even drug policy in general could be a political issue. If the position on the issue is elite liberal marijuana could be legal and then you wouldn't be able to get arrested for "selling brownies".  Conversely you could get life in prison for it in an archconservative society (or death if the death penalty is allowed).
-Same for prostitution.
-Race Issues. In an elite liberal society the government is giving out reparations.  In an arch-conservative society Jim Crow Laws are back.
-Immigration. In an elite liberal society immigration quotas are repealed and all illegal immigrants are granted amnesty. In that case sweatshop workers would be replaced with union and nonunion workers, since sweatshop owners wouldn't be able to hold deportation over the heads of their workers in order to keep them working.  In an archconservative society illegal immigrants are executed. So in that scenario if a member who was arrested is an illegal immigrant rather than being deported he would be brought to court and sent to death row if convicted.
-Religion. Religion is a big issue in our society and one of the major dividing lines between liberal and conservative so it should be an issue. In an elite liberal society religion is removed from all public property and everyone is allowed to practice any belief elsewhere. In an archconservative society everyone must adhere to the evangelical Protestant Christianity.

I also have some other Ideas:
-You could have the option to "Forge Citizenship Documents" in the game. Allows illegal immigrants to pretend to be citizens and won't be treated as illegals if arrested unless the police discover that the documents are fake. Would require a high writing skill.
-Add a Church building, and a Pastor character who you can turn into a "Liberal Pastor" through interrogation and give you influence in the church and change the public's mind particularly about Religion.
-Assassinations and bombings would also make the game more interesting.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on October 06, 2008, 11:56:42 pm
If there is a church is should be one of those mega-church televangelist temples to greed.  It's the perfect target for the LCS and the most humorous and least offensive religious target.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Gantolandon on October 07, 2008, 06:05:50 pm
Avoiding being offensive in LCS?  ???

If someone doesn't want to get wet, he shouldn't go to a swimming pool.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Anticheese on October 07, 2008, 06:19:29 pm
And a very good point that is.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: IndonesiaWarMinister on October 07, 2008, 08:22:06 pm
If you get church, then in other cities there MUST be another religion's temple. Oh, and they all are fighting against each other. So, you can choose to ally / subordinate to one of them, and you must sabotage others. Or you can conquer them all (recruit the high religionmen).

My two Z$
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on October 07, 2008, 10:42:21 pm
Avoiding being offensive in LCS?  ???

If someone doesn't want to get wet, he shouldn't go to a swimming pool.

LCS pushes the envelope, it doesn't burn it and piss on the ashes.  Being offensive is easy.  LCS tries to be funny and subversive.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Cosmonot on October 08, 2008, 12:27:47 am
If you get church, then in other cities there MUST be another religion's temple. Oh, and they all are fighting against each other. So, you can choose to ally / subordinate to one of them, and you must sabotage others. Or you can conquer them all (recruit the high religionmen).

My two Z$

It doesn't make any sense for the radical/liberal LCS, which presumably supports the separation of church and state, to support a religious organization.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: IndonesiaWarMinister on October 08, 2008, 07:33:41 am
IF you want it to be. Of course, then you be Pope Crime Squad / Dalai Lama Squad / Bin Ladin Suicide Bomber against Nuclear Installation or whatever.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Cosmonot on October 08, 2008, 08:58:39 pm
IF you want it to be. Of course, then you be Pope Crime Squad / Dalai Lama Squad / Bin Ladin Suicide Bomber against Nuclear Installation or whatever.

The entire game is written as a satire of US politics. Making the LCS a religious faction on a whim undermines that.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: eliteliberal2008 on October 08, 2008, 10:44:46 pm
A few things I noticed...

1. People crack under pressure and rat you out just as easily when you have 4 sleeper judges than when you don't. Shouldn't they be less likely to crack knowing that any judge they get is going to be on their side?
2. People will return from the free clinic to the same place even if there's a raid going on there and somehow get inside without getting caught. This doesn't make sense.  If your compound is getting raided and you just got out of the hospital you'd have to be an idiot to go back to that compound.
3. People will sometimes try to convert their enemies while fighting even though they are armed with a gun. I can't figure out why this is and it has been really annoying.  I'd prefer my person to shoot, but they keep lecturing the police on free speech.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on October 08, 2008, 10:53:02 pm
IIRC later two are known but the first is an interesting idea.  Personally, I don't think they would even know about your sleepers unless they're high juice for the very reason that they might crack under questioning.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Karlito on October 09, 2008, 03:18:04 am
The police are torturing and trying to convert the guys that they take into custody in a similar way to how you interrogate hostages.  That's why you get "X has been tortured recently" messages when you perform breakouts.  It also explains why characters with low heart are more likely to rat you out.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Guy Montag on October 10, 2008, 03:46:32 am
Just a thought: Seiges are too easy to defeat, even with soldiers and tanks everywhere, if you have about 60 armed guys in your safehouse, you can easily massacre the entire seige without any conservative firing a single shot back at you.

So I was thinking any of your liberals that are not in the 6-man squad can have a chance to not beable to fire. Realistically, you can't really focus the fire of a 60 man mob very well, so I think only a random number of guys not in the 6 man squad could fire in a round.

So instead of firing they would be scrambling for cover, looking for an open shot, pulling rear security, ect. It could even display it in the combat spam like "David Hendrix dives for cover!" "Jim Sterns moves to flank the enemy!"

While having no effect, it would simulate the chaos of the situation. Also, the Tactics skill could somehow be used to lower the chances a liberal would be unable to fire in a round.

This would help make seiges a little more realistic and challenging.

Also, unrelated, maybe make a City Hall location. Left-wing groups are always kidnapping and assassinating mayors and local gov't officials IRL, just seems like its something missing from the game. Could have some government workers and officials to kidnap and stuff.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Neonivek on October 10, 2008, 07:18:51 pm
Well Seiges are a mixed challenge.

For people who don't know what they are doing, such as myself, they are a wave of death that your lucky to get out of alive!

For people who do know what they are doing... Yeah they can often be pathetic.

Do you think there is a way to bridge these gaps? Such as a stronger role for Base design?
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on October 10, 2008, 09:56:40 pm
I almost added a random chance for people not in the front to fire. And I may have, actually, I don't remember; if so, it's done silently, no alternate message for what they're doing if they don't shoot. But the problem with that is that it just means you need to grind more recruits to get the same amount of siege-breaking firepower. I've also thought about simply having a hard limit on how many people can fire at any given time, so maybe the front six plus another six to twelve max, but the problem with that is that you may want your elite agents with M16s to fire first, and the game may pick some hippies with .22 pistols instead, preventing your big guns from firing. Having tactics play a factor would be interesting -- could make it so tactics allows you to attack from the back ranks during a siege as one of its abilities. Would need to ensure it has other goodies for people in the front though too. At the moment, the plan (on indefinite hold while I work on college, at least as far as me implementing it is concerned) is to have siege units throw grenades, whether stunning or damaging, and allowing tactics skill rolls to defend. A high tactics on the part of the Conservatives could give them first strike too, by ambushing your group ("Police SWAT came out of nowhere! Police SWAT shoots at Joe Bob with the SMG and hits three times!") -- while a high tactics on your part would help prevent that.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on October 11, 2008, 11:22:08 am
One possibility would be to have the number of Liberals able to fire derived from the average Tactics score, so untrained Hippie spam would make things worse, not better. As to which ones fire, a priority queue could be set up with rank therein assigned to each Liberal based on their statistics, skill, and armament. Then once we have that ranking, the individual Tactics score could modify its accuracy as a tactical judgment factor; if you have  high Tactics and a .38, you know to let the brainwashed CCS Boss with Kalashnikov take the better firing position... but if you're a Hippie with 0 Tactics and a potato gun, you're probably totally convinced that you will turn back the Conservative tide with one well-placed shot...

Basically, have average Tactics abstractly determine how well you organize as a group, and thus how many of you can line up shots... and individual Tactics abstractly determine intangibles like discipline and judgment (or bravado and a tendency to block lines of fire), and thus how well-chosen your shooters are.

Hmm... I'm half-tempted to try to take a shot at coding up a rough version of this... and yes, I know, I too had promised refactoring, not development. But it's possibly moot anyway because I'm also harried and distracted by academics (plus that wretched eRepublik timesink... curse you, a1s and beorn! I hold you lot personally responsible, as prior to your persuasion I was wondering what that was all about, and after I was ready to fight for the eLiberal cause...)
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: beorn080 on October 11, 2008, 04:24:22 pm
The only problem is if you snag someone with like an 8 tactics, you can just sit down and teach everyone high level tactics and achieve the same end. The enemy going first is a decent answer but the problem there is that it just turns into who dies randomly and doesn't add any real difficulty to it. Perhaps a new body armor Riot Shield which is essentially a tank body with only head shots doing damage. Would need to allow higher skills to hit the head at a higher percentage but that would favor high skill shooters in the front ranks and make the back ranks less important.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: E. Albright on October 11, 2008, 04:37:31 pm
Well, if you have to train everyone in tactics, that at least counts for something... and if they're just random mules, they may not have the juice for a high Tactics skill. While it wouldn't perforce suddenly make sieges little slices of Hell, they'd at least make the old "grab 40 untrained Hippies with .38s and become invincible" trick infeasible.

I'm less bothered by a squad that's trained and drilled defeating sieges than one that has no preparation or organization doing the same.

Also, we can make Tactics a bit scarcer, and ensure you'll never find any random person with more than 1 or 2 under most circumstances... so the only way to end up with someone  with an 8 or so to train yourself a Hippie hedgehog would be to weather multiple sieges. And at that point, you'd have earned it, if ya ask me.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Guy Montag on October 11, 2008, 05:04:42 pm
Maybe make a new Arch-Conservative unit. a General or something. He would have high leadership and tactics and could be brainwashed into training your hippies to defeat police seiges. HE could also attack your liberals by giving rousing speeches on patriotism and explaining the importance of national security.

Maybe you could scale the % that an individual in the back could fire by the number of guys you have. You would have a result of diminishing returns the more hippies you have in the back firing. With say, 10, almost all would be firing. With 100, almost nobody would be able to fire in the confusion.

Not that more people in the safehouse would be WORST, but higher numbers would end up being less useful.

The seigers ambushing you and firing first should be implimented as well.

Also was thinking of somehow replicating attacks against your guys from long-distance. A sniper shooting your squad, or a tank firing its main gun or coax at you from two blocks away. Helicopters could attack your squad with nigh-impunity.

Maybe the tactics skill could mitigate the chances these "free" hits could damage your squad. Better grasp of tactics would have your guy moving in cover and manuvering in ways that makes it difficult for a sniper or helicopter to get a clear shot on your sqaud.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on October 12, 2008, 02:14:52 am
The tactics could contain a tradeoff between the effectiveness of extra fighters and the amount of indirect fire recieved.  In a nutshell: v. loose formation, only your six member squad fires but you don't loose any members to random shelling, airstrikes, snipers, etc.  v. tight formation (human wave) tons of liberals get to fire but casualties from more distant enemies skyrocket.  Then have a few levels in between.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Little on October 12, 2008, 10:45:59 pm
The tactics could contain a tradeoff between the effectiveness of extra fighters and the amount of indirect fire recieved.  In a nutshell: v. loose formation, only your six member squad fires but you don't loose any members to random shelling, airstrikes, snipers, etc.  v. tight formation (human wave) tons of liberals get to fire but casualties from more distant enemies skyrocket.  Then have a few levels in between.

I'm Little, and I approve of this message.  8)
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: mainiac on October 13, 2008, 12:10:50 am
I'm Little, and I approve of this message.  8)

Y'know, they can fix that. :D

(http://softduit.com/images/Blog_Folders/article_images/BloggingAboutSomethingNegativeNotMyBagBa_120CE/austin_powers_Swedish_Penis_Pump.jpg)

...sorry, I can't resist a cheap shot.
Title: Re: Future of the Crime Squad
Post by: Deadmeat1471 on October 18, 2008, 12:38:52 pm
Been wanting LCS continued for ages! win! ;D