Bay 12 Games Forum

Other Projects => Curses => Topic started by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 09, 2008, 07:08:32 am

Title: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 09, 2008, 07:08:32 am
I was thinking about merging shotgun, pistol, smg, and assault rifle skills into one skill called guns. Also sword and knife into one skill called blades. The reasoning is this:

(a) Some skills just suck. For example, knife. Merging them with better skills would reduce the skill spam required to support the diversity of items the game models.
(b) The gun skills in particular have more in common than they have different. It's strange to have an expert in assault rifles be reverted to a zero skill amateur when they pick up a submachine gun.
(c) It would make characters randomly starting with weapon skills less common in peaceful jobs, while still letting gang members and police officers start with good skills.
(d) There is little gameplay reason to split the different weapons into different categories, it serves more to limit the player's options without an obvious reason to do so. Merging the gun skills especially would make both coding and playing slightly easier, without removing any of the core difficulty of the game.
(e) The change would fit well with the theme established by some of the other skills already in LCS, like science and security, that are very broad.
(f) This would enable adding new guns that aren't clearly in one category or another without creating a plethora of small skills. For example, hunting rifles for the redneck mobs.

Requesting your comments.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: ChemicalVengence on November 09, 2008, 09:56:22 am
This is a good idea, since I've always kinda found it odd that I might have a guy who can use rifles and shotguns great, but cant use a pistol to save his life (literally). Also, I hope if you decide to put this into action, we could get a few more guns in, such as a few new SMGs, since right now it's only the MP5, it might as well be the "MP5 skill." Perhaps like a Tec-9 or an MP32, or some kind of cheaper SMG, thus making the MP5 the better of them, but also more expensive. It always sucks to start off a new game and have like 6 ppl willing to join, but with all of them having SMG skills and you cant rly use them since you cant afford those guns yet, but of course that won't matter if the gun skill is combined anyways, either way, great idea.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Twerty on November 09, 2008, 10:08:46 am
Although I certainly can agree very much with the logic behind this suggestion, I'm a bit hesitant to agree with /one/ skill for guns. Yes, it doesn't make sense that a guy can pick up a shotgun and handle it like a five-year-old when he's already gotten more than his fair share of headshots with an M16, but it seems a bit questionable to say a guy can handle a .22 peashooter as well as he can handle a fully automatic assault rifle.

Maybe 'small arms(pistols/SMG?)' and 'long arms (assault rifles/rifles/shotguns)' or something similar? Although I definitely agree that a merging of sorts is necessary and required, merging ALL guns into ONE catagory seems, a bit, well, too easy. But perhaps that's just my opinion. >.>

(P.S. Happy birthday Johnathan!)
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Jetman123 on November 09, 2008, 10:12:08 am
I would agree. Except I don't agree on the nomenclature. "Small arms" means rifles, pistols - anything that fires small bullets intended to be used on "soft" targets like soldiers. :)

I would have to say "Handheld guns" and "long guns".
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Twerty on November 09, 2008, 10:18:50 am
:S I apologise for my sporradic categorization, I totally just gave vague examples to illustrate the idea. Though I'm glad someone else agrees with it. :P
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Neonivek on November 09, 2008, 11:36:21 am
How about this John (Since really... Even an expert in swordmanship would SUCK with knives... and some just SEEM related because people tend to train with both such as rifles and pistols... While some benefit from the basics of the weapon such as all guns)

There is a Gun and Blade skill that rises at a rate slower then the other weapon skills

The game will always use the highest between the general and specific skill.

Thus if someone masters quite a few weapons they may end up being a generalist who can switch back and forth between the weaponry with no penelty

"a) Some skills just suck. For example, knife. Merging them with better skills would reduce the skill spam required to support the diversity of items the game models."
-This is mostly to me because the game wasn't made to reflect the many advantages knives have. Such as them being an easily concealed weapon that doesn't make noise that is untracable and can be easily thrown away or removed.

(b) The gun skills in particular have more in common than they have different. It's strange to have an expert in assault rifles be reverted to a zero skill amateur when they pick up a submachine gun.
-In these cases definately

(c) It would make characters randomly starting with weapon skills less common in peaceful jobs, while still letting gang members and police officers start with good skills.
-I really don't see a co-relation

(d) There is little gameplay reason to split the different weapons into different categories, it serves more to limit the player's options without an obvious reason to do so. Merging the gun skills especially would make both coding and playing slightly easier, without removing any of the core difficulty of the game.
-This is kinda sad to me that we can't just make all the weapons have their own advantages and disadvantages. Though I guess it is because of the way the game is... Sure you can sneak weapons into a location, but if you were actually planning on using them you were better off blazing in with guns out.

(e) The change would fit well with the theme established by some of the other skills already in LCS, like science and security, that are very broad.
-Yeah but Science and Security arn't too useful anyhow, especially science which is only useful during interogations and thus CAN be vague because it doesn't represent actual science knowledge but rather the terminology that is consistant in all science... (Security is modern lock-picking skills)
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: E. Albright on November 09, 2008, 11:52:01 am
If we're going the "general" skill route, would it be better to have an explicit all-encompassing skill ("Guns", "Blades"), or rather a default pseudoskill derived from the existing skill levels? I.e., "Guns" = avg(Pistol, Shotgun, SMG, Assault Rifle)?

(As to the hicks' aught-sixes, I'd probably lump them in with shotguns... but that's still a generalization, and in any case wouldn't help with the general problem.)

[e] I'm keenly aware that the pseudoskill route is less desirable from a coding maintenance and UI perspective... and I just realized I've not expressed a preference. I'm fine with abstracting it down to category skills. I'd hesitantly suggest we go further than what is suggested here, and break it down to "Guns",
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
"Melee", "Throwing", "Hand to Hand", "Improvised Weapons". This gives the same sense of overbroad generalizing with clubs, swords, and axes that we see with guns. Improvised I'd keep because it has some idiosyncratic stuff in it. Throwing would be Mollies, the possible grenades that have been suggested from time to time, and
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: E. Albright on November 09, 2008, 11:59:49 am
(c) It would make characters randomly starting with weapon skills less common in peaceful jobs, while still letting gang members and police officers start with good skills.
-I really don't see a co-relation

Less combat skills = less chance to get one randomly assigned to a character. If there's 4 gun skills, there's 4x the chance of a Random Hippy starting with some firearms training than if there's just Guns.

Quote
-This is kinda sad to me that we can't just make all the weapons have their own advantages and disadvantages. Though I guess it is because of the way the game is... Sure you can sneak weapons into a location, but if you were actually planning on using them you were better off blazing in with guns out.

One point about this is focus of the game. Is it meant to be primarily a combat game? Then an extremely high level of detail for combat an weapons is desirable. If it's not, abstraction has definite advantages.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Neonivek on November 09, 2008, 12:05:15 pm
"Is it meant to be primarily a combat game?"

Ohh this game is DEFINATELY a combat game.

The only time you shouldn't be mass killing people is when your collecting sleepers (Who have a limit to WHO and HOW MANY are useful)

In fact MOST of the suggestion for the way to win involve combat.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: E. Albright on November 09, 2008, 12:19:00 pm
Not "is it a combat game", but is the focus to be primarily on combat? Does the game's STRUCTURE primarily revolve around combat? E.g., Civilization is a game in which combat features very heavily and a reliance on combat therein makes certain styles of gameplay much easier, but it abstracts away a great many details because combat is not its primary focus.

(And I'd even argue against the "is it a combat game" question... one can cleanly win w/o ever engaging in combat.)
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: penguinofhonor on November 09, 2008, 12:50:06 pm
I would like a "melee weapons" and a "guns" skill, which rise more slowly than the specific skills, but add to them a little. Someone with level 6 pistols and level 4 guns should have as much skill as someone with 8 pistol skill, and he should be able to pick up any gun he wants and fire it with the skill of someone with 2 in that specific skill. I agree that someone skilled with a shotgun shouldn't be a total novice with an AK47, but they shouldn't be an expert either.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Neonivek on November 09, 2008, 01:09:07 pm
Quote
Does the game's STRUCTURE primarily revolve around combat?

The only way around combat in this game is to collect sleepers and that is all. Should be noted HOWEVER that a common speculation for the "Win the game scenario" involves the Conservatives claiming martial law and you needing to kill them all. So you very well may not be able to get around it anyhow... In fact you could lose because you didn't train up your characters.

Also: Penguin of Honor that works too
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Fieari on November 09, 2008, 05:50:02 pm
I like the pseudo-skill route.  Take the average of shotgun, pistol, smg, and assault rifle and make that you GUNS skill.

So, say you have SG=10, P=0, S=0, and AR=2.  Your GUN skill would be 3.  When wielding a pistol, smg, or assault rifle, your skill would be 3, but all experience would go to the gun you're using... which WOULD raise your average, but slowly.  So now you have pistol=1, your gun skill is 3.25, and so on.

If you wanted to make it easier to switch weapons, you could always weight your highest skill higher, like 1.5.  With 10,0,0,2, you'd get 3.78 instead of just 3 for the gun skill.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 09, 2008, 06:18:03 pm
Let me explain a little more about why I proposed merging the weapons into such high level abstractions.

One of the principles I have for weapon skills is that it's important to ensure the skill names are very clear and descriptive. When you pick up a pistol, does it use your pistol skill, or your guns skill? If you pick up a TEC-9, is it a pistol or an SMG? The US Government classifies it as a handgun, but it was originally designed to be a cheap military submachine gun. Does it switch categories depending on whether it's an automatic weapon or not? Then you have a problem with a person who is ace with an automatic TEC-9 sucks with one that only shoots once per trigger pull, and that doesn't make much sense. If SMG is merged with assault rifles, but not with pistols, it makes the problem even more significant.

You can sit there and come up with reasonable answers to these questions, but you shouldn't have to. You should never have to ask which skill is used for a particular weapon. For this reason I'm very reluctant to make the weapon skills MORE complicated by adding general skills that are coexistant with specific skills, or doing partial merges to create classes of weapons that are kind of nebulous. You could argue for an automatic weapons skill, but what about the semi-automatic AR-15 rifle, which is essentially an M16 without burst? Why should that be a totally separate skill from the M16? The more weapons I've added, the more these issues have come up.

I would suggest that the key question here is really whether distinction between kinds of combat builds is a focus of the game, rather than combat itself. Abstracting guns into a single skill wouldn't change the core mechanics of combat at all -- this is an issue of skill building and recruiting. And in this area, when I think about a liberal radical group, it makes sense to me to have people more coarsely cut into gun experts, rather than shotgun experts, assault rifle experts, pistol experts, etc.. That feels more suiting of a sort of mercenary game than one based on left-wing radicals, and one of the core aspects of LCS is that feel.

LCS is gritty, and think it's valuable to the feel of the game that you can grab various real-world weapons to do things with, but I'm not sure that the current skills for combat are as useful. "Guns" is much more a liberal buzzword than "shotguns" and "pistols" and "assault rifles" are, and so it can be more fundamentally striking from the perspective of a liberal group that you're training people up with "guns", while breaking it down into "shotguns" and "pistols" and "submachine guns", while grittier, seems to be so much so that it loses the liberal perspective on things.

Still, here's an alternate idea, mainly being a couple things I was planning on trying out anyway:

One approach to solve some of the issues (though not all) could be to keep high distinctions between combat skills, but heavily penalize using a skill when you have a skill level of 0. For example, there's a sword skill, but if you don't have any skill with swords, you effectively have a skill of -5 or -10 rather than 0. Perhaps something clever like [-15 + agility] or 0, whichever is lower, or -10 + improvised weapons. Once you hit skill 1, you are back rolling with a skill of 1. In this way, it becomes much more important to assign the correct weapon to the correct person, or train people first. Perhaps accidentally hitting people is much more likely with no skill as well.

To avoid the explosion of hippies with weapon skills, certain skills would either be very rarely or never given out randomly -- so submachine guns would not be a thing that you could expect to find in the repertoire of skills possessed by fast food workers. This way, if you want to move into using SMGs, you'll want to specifically seek out and recruit someone who can train your people in them, as otherwise they'll be starting out extremely inept with the weapons and likely to get hurt or killed before learning to use them well. Generally speaking, combat skills in character creation get more useful as well -- which is probably a good thing, as they're currently pretty lame.

PS: Thanks, Twerty. I'm surprised anyone on here knows it's my birthday. ;D
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Cosmonot on November 09, 2008, 10:12:17 pm
Let me explain a little more about why I proposed merging the weapons into such high level abstractions.

One of the principles I have for weapon skills is that it's important to ensure the skill names are very clear and descriptive. When you pick up a pistol, does it use your pistol skill, or your guns skill? If you pick up a TEC-9, is it a pistol or an SMG? The US Government classifies it as a handgun, but it was originally designed to be a cheap military submachine gun. Does it switch categories depending on whether it's an automatic weapon or not? Then you have a problem with a person who is ace with an automatic TEC-9 sucks with one that only shoots once per trigger pull, and that doesn't make much sense. If SMG is merged with assault rifles, but not with pistols, it makes the problem even more significant.

You can sit there and come up with reasonable answers to these questions, but you shouldn't have to. You should never have to ask which skill is used for a particular weapon. For this reason I'm very reluctant to make the weapon skills MORE complicated by adding general skills that are coexistant with specific skills, or doing partial merges to create classes of weapons that are kind of nebulous. You could argue for an automatic weapons skill, but what about the semi-automatic AR-15 rifle, which is essentially an M16 without burst? Why should that be a totally separate skill from the M16? The more weapons I've added, the more these issues have come up.

I'm in favor of lumping guns together into "automatics" and "everything else," and I don't think this would be a big problem in practice, if properly implemented. Usually in this game there's no reason not to take a burst shot if you can, even if you'd take an accuracy penalty. If it really bothers you, there are a bunch of ways you could have the auto skill override the other one when it's higher.

I would suggest that the key question here is really whether distinction between kinds of combat builds is a focus of the game, rather than combat itself. Abstracting guns into a single skill wouldn't change the core mechanics of combat at all -- this is an issue of skill building and recruiting. And in this area, when I think about a liberal radical group, it makes sense to me to have people more coarsely cut into gun experts, rather than shotgun experts, assault rifle experts, pistol experts, etc.. That feels more suiting of a sort of mercenary game than one based on left-wing radicals, and one of the core aspects of LCS is that feel.

LCS is gritty, and think it's valuable to the feel of the game that you can grab various real-world weapons to do things with, but I'm not sure that the current skills for combat are as useful. "Guns" is much more a liberal buzzword than "shotguns" and "pistols" and "assault rifles" are, and so it can be more fundamentally striking from the perspective of a liberal group that you're training people up with "guns", while breaking it down into "shotguns" and "pistols" and "submachine guns", while grittier, seems to be so much so that it loses the liberal perspective on things.

Cutting down on the number of skills involved is a good idea, but I think the distinction between automatic guns and single-shot guns is useful, because automatic guns are by and large the best weapons in the game. I think it's currently too easy to train up rifle skill by buying a bunch of econo-priced AR-15s and use those until you can afford/loot some automatic rifles. It also allows you to create a distinction where anyone can have some amount of general firearms experience, but make it rare or impossible to get people with auto weapons skill unless they're soldiers or conservative gun-nuts, which makes auto weapons skill a more valuable resource.

Still, here's an alternate idea, mainly being a couple things I was planning on trying out anyway:

One approach to solve some of the issues (though not all) could be to keep high distinctions between combat skills, but heavily penalize using a skill when you have a skill level of 0. For example, there's a sword skill, but if you don't have any skill with swords, you effectively have a skill of -5 or -10 rather than 0. Perhaps something clever like [-15 + agility] or 0, whichever is lower, or -10 + improvised weapons. Once you hit skill 1, you are back rolling with a skill of 1. In this way, it becomes much more important to assign the correct weapon to the correct person, or train people first. Perhaps accidentally hitting people is much more likely with no skill as well.

This is an absolutely awful idea as written. As I understand it, you're suggesting that you keep pistol/smg/rifle/shotgun skills separate, but add cripplingly huge penalties if you don't have the appropriate skill? In what way is that intuitive, realistic, or fun? Bear in mind that a -10, for a character who already has no skill, basically means that the character will almost never hit. If you condense the skills, it's still a terrible idea unless you drastically reduce the skill penalty to something manageable like -2. I still wouldn't like it, because a lot of the fun of LCS is taking random civilians, giving them guns, and sending them out to cause trouble. Penalizing unskilled shooters would make it much harder to do this without training first, which in my opinion is against the spirit of the game - it should be okay to send out squads of martyrs and hope they'll do well, rather than demand serious training and planning before you get into a fight with rent-a-cops.
[/quote]

To avoid the explosion of hippies with weapon skills, certain skills would either be very rarely or never given out randomly -- so submachine guns would not be a thing that you could expect to find in the repertoire of skills possessed by fast food workers. This way, if you want to move into using SMGs, you'll want to specifically seek out and recruit someone who can train your people in them, as otherwise they'll be starting out extremely inept with the weapons and likely to get hurt or killed before learning to use them well. Generally speaking, combat skills in character creation get more useful as well -- which is probably a good thing, as they're currently pretty lame.

This is all a good idea, but combat skills in character creation wouldn't be any good unless it's possible to pump them up high. Starting with 1 or 2 points in the assault rifle skill isn't worth much.

As far as melee weapons go, they could be condensed into a couple generic skills: one for swords, fire axes, warhammers, and other real or effective weapons, and one for improvised melee + unarmed combat called brawling or similar. Splitting them up like this could allow the introduction of rare SCA-types who start with a random medieval weapon, mithril mail, and the appropriate weapon skill. The only thing to do is give the skill a suitable name.

As a vaguely related note, it seems like the AK47 is underrepresented. I think that mercenaries and CCS guys should have AKs either instead of or in addition to M16s, partially for flavor and also because AK47s are less useful since you can't run around with one in an army uniform.

Also, happy birthday.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Jetman123 on November 09, 2008, 11:06:24 pm
Dividing them into short and long arms solves that problem. An SMG is a long arm. A tec-9 is a short arm. Long arms and short arms are totally independent of automatic/semiautomatic capability - how fast they fire is irrelevant. Firing three shots with an M16 takes as much skill as firing one shot - all it does is lower accuracy.

If you don't like that, here's an idea:

Weapon Familiarity.

We'd have a general skill for firearms. Then we'd have a percentage value for how familiar someone is with how to shoot a shotgun, SMG, short automatic, rifle, or pistol.

The percentage value starts at 0% and goes up in an (in terms of difficulty to increase) increasing "curve". As in, it's really easy to get that percentage up to 10%, and almost impossible to get it up to 100%.

Using a pistol increases all your "pistol familiarities", but at a slower rate than the pistol you're actively using.

For example, I shoot a .44 magnum and get my weapon familiarity up to 30% with said .44 magnum. If I suddenly start using a 9mm autoloader, instead, my weapon familiarity is 20%. If I switch back to the .44, weapon familiarity goes back up to 30%. Familiarity values are stored independently, but go up whenever you shoot a gun that's in the same type. So firing a pistol should raise all pistol familiarity SOMEWHAT, and raise it regularily for the pistol type you're actually firing.

The same thing goes for rifles and the like. If I've been shooting a .44 pistol all this time, and switch over to an M16, well, obviously I'm not going to be used to firing an M16. However, somewhat below half of my pistol familiarity goes into my rifle familiarity. I have an idea how to use iron sights, how to balance myself and control breathing, I'm just not used to firing a rifle instead of a pistol.

All gun skills go up when you fire a gun - they just go up more slowly than if you were actually using said gun.

I realize that's not very clear, so let's put it this way: Firing a .44 gives you an idea how to fire an M16 and vice versa, meaning that firing a .44 raises M16 skill. However, it raises .44 skill MUCH more than M16 skill. It also somewhat raises .22, 9mm, .45 and other pistol familiarity, but again, not as much as the .44.

This would mean that characters are realistically flexible in their skill with using firearms in general as well as specific firearms. They'll just be really good with the weapon they've always used, somewhat good with weapons of the same type that they've always used, medicore in weapon types they haven't used.

One more example.

I'm going to categorize guns into "types". We'll have (just for clarity's sake) SMGs, rifles, and pistols.
SMGs: MP5
Rifles: M16, M4, AK47, shotgun
Pistols: .44, .45, 9mm, .22

Firing an M16 raises M16 familiarity at 100% of the normal rate.
At the same time, firing an M16 raises Rifle familiarity (for the M4, shotgun and AK47) at 75% or so of the normal rate.
Again at the same time, firing an M16 raises Pistol (.44, .45, 9mm, .22) and SMG (MP5) familiarity at 50% of the normal rate.

In summary:
Firing a gun raises that gun's INDIVIDUAL familiarity at 100%.
Firing a gun raises that gun's TYPE familiarity at 75%.
Firing a gun raises OUTSIDE OF THAT GUN'S TYPE familiarity at 50%.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: E. Albright on November 09, 2008, 11:58:54 pm
We'd have a general skill for firearms. Then we'd have a percentage value for how familiar someone is with how to shoot a shotgun, SMG, short automatic, rifle, or pistol.

Not bad if we want to make LCS into more of a military/para-military game, but I don't think we should be moving in that direction. We already have tons of weapon skills, and "familiarity" is "skill" by another name. What you propose looks like it'd work well enough, but I don't think we should be adding more weapon skills... in this case many, many more.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: E. Albright on November 10, 2008, 12:01:58 am
PS: Thanks, Twerty. I'm surprised anyone on here knows it's my birthday. ;D

It was listed on the Calendar at the bottom of the forum page as an "upcoming event".  ;)
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: penguinofhonor on November 10, 2008, 12:20:18 am
I really like Jetman's idea.

Johnathan, I don't really like the idea of generalizing the weapon skills too much. Because then it takes some of the individuality out of the liberals. Now, we have this guy being a master with the sword and that guy is pretty kick ass with pistols, and that guy over there knows how to shoot a shotgun while that teenage girl learned how to use the rifles we picked up off the CCS guys. Under your proposed system (not the second one with the penalties, that one's just awful) then I'd be reduced to having a sword guy and a bunch of gun people. I don't have to care for them and make sure that my favorite liberals had enough ammo, I'd just give them whatever I had and tell them to shoot people with it.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Cosmonot on November 10, 2008, 02:14:08 am
Dividing them into short and long arms solves that problem. An SMG is a long arm. A tec-9 is a short arm. Long arms and short arms are totally independent of automatic/semiautomatic capability - how fast they fire is irrelevant. Firing three shots with an M16 takes as much skill as firing one shot - all it does is lower accuracy.

The point of splitting automatics and single shot guns is that automatic guns are generally the best in the game, and single-shot guns are generally what you get when you're incapable of getting automatic guns somehow. Splitting the skills up like that, and making automatic skill rare, is both vaguely realistic and more importantly makes it important for the player to somehow convince a conservative gun nut to teach his guys how to shoot effectively, or start with the kind of badass founder who can do it himself.

Weapon Familiarity.

<snip>

Thoughts?

This is way too complicated for what it does.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Khlor on November 10, 2008, 03:16:56 am
In my experience, the main difference in handling a gun is how you hold it, so gun skills realistically should be divided at Pistols and Long Guns (SMGs, rifles, shotguns). As to what Penguinofhonor said, maybe we should emphazise gun differences in other ways, for example, making the ability to carry a gun concealed more valuable, or making people in fully military armor and with M16's strolling around civilian locations raise suspicion slowly?
Regarding Jetman's idea, it's not so complicated. Using a skill gives experience to that skill as it is, what Jetman suggests is usage of  a skill giving some experience to certain other skills too. It doesn't require introducing any new stats.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 10, 2008, 08:08:07 am
I don't have a strong objection to splitting guns into pistols/handguns and other guns, but I'm unsure of what the clearest naming conventions would be for the skills. Another similar option (like the example in Jetman's post) would be to go with three categories, pistols, rifles, and SMGs -- shotguns would fall under the "rifle" skill, as they did in earlier (Toady!) versions of LCS. That category could still be renamed. I also hear Cosmonot's point about the merits of splitting skills in one way or another into weaker guns and stronger guns.

Johnathan, I don't really like the idea of generalizing the weapon skills too much. Because then it takes some of the individuality out of the liberals. Now, we have this guy being a master with the sword and that guy is pretty kick ass with pistols, and that guy over there knows how to shoot a shotgun while that teenage girl learned how to use the rifles we picked up off the CCS guys. Under your proposed system (not the second one with the penalties, that one's just awful) then I'd be reduced to having a sword guy and a bunch of gun people. I don't have to care for them and make sure that my favorite liberals had enough ammo, I'd just give them whatever I had and tell them to shoot people with it.

That's an interesting point, and it breaks against my assumption that most people go about their weapon choices the other way around -- they decide what weapons they want people to use, then ensure their people have the appropriate skills. I'd be interesting in hearing how others combine their weapons and skills, whether it's picking guns based on the people you have access to, or picking guns you want and then finding people who can use them, or just picking guns you want and then giving them to anything warm and breathing. I changes thing somewhat depending on which choice you make.

As a vaguely related note, it seems like the AK47 is underrepresented. I think that mercenaries and CCS guys should have AKs either instead of or in addition to M16s, partially for flavor and also because AK47s are less useful since you can't run around with one in an army uniform.

I think mercenaries usually have AR-15s, but the reason CCS guys use M16s is just based on the idea that AK47 is associated with communist revolutionaries, while the M16 is associated with capitalist armies. I'll come back to your point on M16s and uniforms below.

This is kinda sad to me that we can't just make all the weapons have their own advantages and disadvantages. Though I guess it is because of the way the game is... Sure you can sneak weapons into a location, but if you were actually planning on using them you were better off blazing in with guns out.

An idea to throw out on one possible way to change this:

The more gruesome and violent your actions are in a site action, the more it damages LCS popularity. If the LCS is unpopular, it can't affect public opinion with site actions, and needs to resurrect its public image. You don't actually negatively affect public opinion on the issues by taking actions while unpopular, the way a rampage does, you just stop positively affecting it, or it could even be really benign and just be a penalty, like half power at 0% popularity.

You can still shoot a place up to make a point, and it will have a positive effect on that issue, it will just reduce the LCS's credibility for future raids. Eventually just shooting things will stop impressing people when everybody hates you. Freeing bunnies, smashing polluting equipment, releasing political activists from prison, uncovering evil secrets of various organizations, and many sleepers would promote your popularity.

Thus, you might separate weapons into different categories.

Big, impossible to conceal weapons, like assault rifles and swords, would cause almost immediate alarm, and would be the most powerful and deadly, but would tend to create ugly situations quickly and indirectly damage your credibility by starting fights all the time. They would be useful for defending in sieges, or attacking CCS safehouses, where your popularity wouldn't be diminished by killing people. Uniforms wouldn't help a lot here unless it's a place where a heavily armed person with that disguise would normally be -- for example, walking into the police station with an M16 and an army uniform would still set off an alarm, while walking into an army base with the same getup wouldn't.

Pistols and knives would be easy to conceal, but less powerful. They would be useful because you could take them along as protection while doing something more subtle. They'd go with uniforms of all sorts, concealed under clothing. You could sneak into anywhere with these.

Submachine guns or something like that would be the middle of the road in both power and concealability. You could hide them under a trenchcoat, but not with a good uniform for infiltrating places. Thus, it wouldn't immediately cause alarm, but is too big to be part of a proper stealthy mission -- it would be fairly specialized for, as an example, busting into the police station to release prisoners, where you anticipate a fight and want to pack insurance so that you win it, but still want to delay the hostilities as long as possible by not carrying your weapons openly.

One thing this would necessitate would be NOT allowing you to hide your weapons in the equipment screen. One option here would be to simply remove the equipment screen from site actions (other than defending in sieges) entirely. This would prevent equipping guns enemies drop though, which might not be good, and there are other issues with it, like not allowing you to switch to a secondary weapon. Another option would be not allow guns bigger than pistols to be held in the inventory of a squad during site actions. This would create an issue where you can't loot big guns, but it would allow secondary/backup weapons -- but only knives and pistols, not swords and rifles. This actually makes a lot of sense. The looting problem could perhaps be circumvented by adding a prompt whenever you're about to pick up a weapon you can't fit into your bag, letting you select a person to hold the new weapon or choose to leave the Conservative weapon behind -- the selected person will either stash it in the bag, or add a new prompt for what to do with the old equipped weapon, depending on the size.

Weapon Familiarity

This type of thing may end up being the most "realistic" way to handle weapon skills, and it can be implemented such that it's easy for the player to understand, but it's pretty complicated on the back end.

In particular, I (or somebody else) would need to add a lot of new weapon familiarity skills (one for every weapon in the game that this system is used for), probably creating a completely new weapon familiarity skill type separate from the existing skill list, have structures for the high and middle tier categories of weapons so that the game knows which familiarities to update by how much (eg, guns and rifles), handle how new characters spawn with weapon familiarities to ensure they follow the same rules that living characters do in getting their skills distributed properly, add a new interface screen to support the new weapon familiarity information so that players can see what's going on, change how combat experience is gained to work this way, and goodness knows what else to make everything work smoothly...

So I'm hoping it won't come to the point of doing such a dramatic overhaul of the way weapon skills work. ;)

It was listed on the Calendar at the bottom of the forum page as an "upcoming event".  ;)

Huh, didn't know they had that feature on the new forums. o.o

As a side note on birthday, I got Fallout 3 from a friend today, and it reminded me of this discussion we're having because Fallout 3 (like its predecessors in the series) has only five weapon skills, despite being extremely gruesome and combat-oriented. It makes an interesting comparison. They are:

- Unarmed (Including brass knuckles and similar)
- Melee Weapons (From switchblades to sledgehammers)
- Small Guns (From revolvers to pea shooters to assault rifles)
- Big Guns (Miniguns, flamethrowers, rocket launchers, etc.)
- Energy Weapons (Laser or other energy weapons, regardless of size)

I notice that they:

- Have no problem lumping pretty much all the guns that LCS has into one skill.
- Have other 'guns' bigger than that as well, however, and also include an energy weapons category -- so they are splitting up their own (larger) guns list into two or three (very broad) groups.
- Split the weapons roughly by power level and game stage, as per some of Cosmonot's thoughts -- small guns are useful immediately, big guns come later, and have more massive damage but rarer and more expensive ammo, while energy weapons are later game high technology equipment.

LCS doesn't have to do what Fallout does, of course, but it's interesting to see what Black Isle (the developers that created the Fallout system) did about this very issue, as the Fallout games are a fairly well-regarded franchise.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Sergius on November 10, 2008, 09:19:36 am
I've always been a fan of gun "behaviors" rather than gun "types". It makes more sense to me to have a general "guns'" skill, then a separate "burst" skill and maybe a "snipe" skill. Even if we had other non-gun ranged weapons (let's say a scoped crossbow), we could use the same snipe skill in conjunction with a xbow skill, averaging the two or something. We'd also average "guns+burst" for using machineguns and assault rifles, etc. I think there's more cross-over skills, as you said, between using a submachinegun in full auto mode and an assault rifle in full auto mode, than between using a pistol vs a rifle.

If anything, a "two handed" gun vs a "one handed" gun might have some added difficulty, but I'd say the actual "technical" knowledge skill is shared (don't close your eyes when you pull the trigger, how to brace for recoil, and so on), so between different guns it's more about familiarity than anything else.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: E. Albright on November 10, 2008, 10:19:39 am
I've always been a fan of gun "behaviors" rather than gun "types".

I concur. I' be happy to see one firearm skill (as you point out, the basic knowledge overlaps), and then one or two firearm "technique" skills. If you want to learn about automatic fire or sniping, you'll need to get specialist training, but you can get the basics from a cop, hick, or whoever.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: E. Albright on November 10, 2008, 10:29:26 am
I'd be interesting in hearing how others combine their weapons and skills, whether it's picking guns based on the people you have access to, or picking guns you want and then finding people who can use them, or just picking guns you want and then giving them to anything warm and breathing.

I do "warm and breathing". I usually let my combat squad gradually learn how to use their pistols by shooting their way out of alarmed conservative sites, and repeat the process once they get new toys needing learned. The only time I go cruising for a skill is if I want someone to teach it... and then I'm going to sit them down in a safehouse with as many liberals as possible and teach them all. That's pretty much the opposite of "individuality", I suppose.

Also, in re: Fallout, I had that in mind when I suggested the 5 skills I did upthread. And to that effect, I'll note that Fallout 1 & 2 also has throwing, though FO3 axed it.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Sergius on November 10, 2008, 01:38:50 pm
Also, in re: Fallout, I had that in mind when I suggested the 5 skills I did upthread. And to that effect, I'll note that Fallout 1 & 2 also has throwing, though FO3 axed it.

FO3 merged throwing and explosives. One skill for throwing grenades, and the same skill for setting/disarming mines. You can't really set a timed charge to blow a door in FO3 like you did in the previous ones, and mines are awkward (but fun sometimes) so lobbing grenades is pretty much the only real use for explosives skill anyway.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: penguinofhonor on November 10, 2008, 06:19:03 pm
You want to know how I handle my liberals' weapons? I give them one type of weapon in the beginning and I stick with it forever. Some may get a melee skill and a gun skill, but that's it. Tommy over there can kill anything with a katana, Joe can beat you with a hammer, and Sam can gut you with a knife or blow your face off with a shotgun.

Like I said before, they lose some of their individuality when the the pistol guy and the shotgun guy become interchangeable. I find the three-skill option tolerable, though I would still like a slow-raising, small-bonus guns skill because even if you don't know how to fire a shotgun, if you've been training with a pistol real well then you're not going to completely suck.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Cosmonot on November 10, 2008, 07:32:48 pm
You want to know how I handle my liberals' weapons? I give them one type of weapon in the beginning and I stick with it forever. Some may get a melee skill and a gun skill, but that's it. Tommy over there can kill anything with a katana, Joe can beat you with a hammer, and Sam can gut you with a knife or blow your face off with a shotgun.

Like I said before, they lose some of their individuality when the the pistol guy and the shotgun guy become interchangeable. I find the three-skill option tolerable, though I would still like a slow-raising, small-bonus guns skill because even if you don't know how to fire a shotgun, if you've been training with a pistol real well then you're not going to completely suck.

A consolidated skill system would not affect you at all. There's nothing that obligates you to change your pistol guy to a shotgun guy regardless of whether or not the mechanics support the idea; that's like saying you can't have traditional marriages if gay people are getting hitched too. And for people who aren't so keen on hyper-specialized liberals who are only good with one specific weapon, changing the system would give everyone with a weapon skill a variety of options and make the game more interesting.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: penguinofhonor on November 10, 2008, 08:46:18 pm
I just see this idea:
"Bob is great with pistols."
As far more appealing than this idea:
"Bob is great with guns and I give him pistols for some arbitrary reason."
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: mainiac on November 10, 2008, 09:18:03 pm
I'm sorry, penguin, but Cosmonot's argument is liberal, so he is right.

After lots of sitting on the fence, I've decided to favor consolidating the skills because it makes the game less complicated at the start.  Another layer can always be added in later to make it worthwhile to give your liberals different guns.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Rezan on November 11, 2008, 02:21:58 am
I think consolidating the weapon skills is a great idea, and as was mentioned previously - anyone keen on "individualizing" people will not a problem. In any case; YOU were the person who gave them a weapon arbitrarily in the beginning, right? Why is that less silly? I make sure every single one of my soldiers are trained in EVERYTHING, then I give them selective tasks. If one dies, his position is either temporarily reinstated (if he is important enough) by one of his squadmates, or I find another person to train.

Personally I never saw much use in having to train every weapon skill individually; but I did like the idea of practising "sniping" and so forth. I'd rather have it called "Long Range Combat" and "Close Quarters Combat" than burst and snipe though; as that would allow for a broader spectrum of possibilities (for example; the further back in your squad you are, the less effective a person with high "close quarters" skill would get, whereas a "long range" squadmember with poor "close quarters" would find it difficult to hit anything from the front. Perhaps a damage bonus/multiplier should be in place if you are at the very tip or the very back of your squad, depending on your skill?

Obviously the squadmember would use whichever skill he would be most efficient with in his position (but perhaps there could be a roll on tactical [I found a use for tactical! Woo!] and intelligence?).

Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Jetman123 on November 11, 2008, 09:13:06 am
I like that idea, too.

Longer rifles (M16, AR-15, M4) should give a bonus to sniping. Shorter (or more effective at a close range) weapons (shotgun, AK-47, pistols, SMGs) would be better for CQB. Of course you can easily use a pistol for sniping. You just get a bonus if you're using a weapon for the job, on top of what you already get for the skill you have.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 11, 2008, 10:41:39 am
As it stands, the only sniping is when police snipers pick off your people during sieges. I can't really see how this would be changed, unless it's a completely new feature. For normal combat, bear in mind these guys can just as easily hit each other with knives and bats as they can shoot back and forth. You could say the person at the back of the squad is sniping, but that really doesn't make much sense if you think about it.

Combat in LCS is almost universally short range, room to room indoor urban combat; this is why accuracy bonuses and penalties on guns are based more on how light and maneuverable they are than how accurate the guns are at range. While LCS does use the same kind of space abstraction that leads to seven elephants crawling over one another in the same space that earlier was only large enough to fit one dwarf, I still can't see LCS combat taking place at ranges of more than ten meters, tops.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: Rezan on November 11, 2008, 05:11:59 pm
Then perhaps the skills would be best suited as "semi-automatic" and "burst-fire" as previously suggested (I think?); but I still vote for consolidation of the weapons. It's just so much less hassle.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: beorn080 on November 12, 2008, 02:57:22 am
Perhaps three sets of skills: Small arms, which would be all the pistols, Rifles, which would be any single shot weapon not concealable under normal clothing, and Automatics, which would be any weapon with burst fire. In addition, a general Firearms skill that has a ceiling of straight agility as opposed to the more specific categories 2x agility and gets 1/8 of the skill gains every time a weapon is fired. Weapons use whichever category is higher.

Personally, I keep a low profile until I have a decent stock of money and have obtained an Agent or similar with a decent set of weapons scores. I then purchase AR-15's if they are still legal or M4's if gun control is moderate for as many liberals as I can. I then let the sieges break on my wall of lead as my men train rifle skills and eventually start going on raids.
Title: Re: Guns Skill Suggestion
Post by: E. Albright on November 13, 2008, 11:16:05 am
Perhaps three sets of skills: Small arms, which would be all the pistols,

Getting in before the rush: call it sidearms, if you want to go this route. Less confusing and ambiguous.

(Still in favor of "Guns" myself, with the possibility of an additional "Assault" or somesuch skill added for automatics.)