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Other Projects => Curses => Topic started by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 20, 2008, 04:20:42 am

Title: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 20, 2008, 04:20:42 am
I elected not to clear old saves, however, I do reccomend backing up your save file, because the elimination of survival skills from the game may will have unfortunate consequences. (When I first wrote this warning, and decided to make old saves loadable, I half-forgot that a list of all skills are stored in saves. By changing the number of skills in the game, it will maul the save file. So if it does load for you, you'll be able to see very clearly why the game usually just deletes your old saves for situations like these. ;))

Windows Download:
http://www.jonathansfox.com/lcs/lcs_win32_3.17.0.zip

Major Features:
* You can now see two steps away in the sitemode minimap
* Heavily revised character creation
* Added footchases when you're to be arrested during activations, so that your people can defend themselves or flee
* You can now disband and come back -- this is still largely an incomplete feature, but you can still do it

Other changes:
* Fixed crash bug related to people selling art
* Removed survival skill
* Increased the effect of Intelligence on you ability to shut down the nuclear reactor by 50%
* Fixed most of the text writing over the map display bugs, where it persists between messages even as the blank area is erased; due to some awkwardness with lockpicking, whenever you try to pick locks it won't overwrite the map for a bit, but otherwise most of this should be gone
* Banging, smashing, or using a crowbar against doors will now tend to quickly create suspicion
* Disbanding will now require a keypress to advance between months
* Simplified disbanding screen, elections will no longer be shown when disbanding
* Made recruiting a touch easier, emphasized charisma more
* Made interrogation chats a bit harder when the victim is tied up
* Made high infiltration sleepers more slow to lose infiltration when spreading liberalism than low infiltration sleepers
* Made it so that sleepers and others not based at the homeless shelter don't get reported to be "slinking back to the homeless shelter"
* Made it so that people don't return home if their base is under siege
* Failed repair rolls will no longer permanently degrade clothing, instead just failing to repair the clothing today
* Made tanks much more resistant to non-fire damage
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Khlor on November 20, 2008, 04:35:45 am
It looks like the new expanded minimap doesn't affect known areas no the site map (<m> key). You still need to move adjanced to a wall to see it on the site map.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 20, 2008, 05:06:49 am
Yeah, that was... slightly intentional. There are some subtle issues that would come up if I were to expand the range that you can memorize. It's not ideal, but it's not a huge drawback either. I may revise it in the future if I get inspired to.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Jools on November 20, 2008, 07:48:58 am
I just got a crash in a car chase - one police car chasing me, and my recently-recruited Professional Thief gets hit in the head by a shotgun. The car spun out crushing the (only, and already dead) occupant of the car into a cube, I pressed C to reflect on my Conservative ineptitude, and got a couple of errors (sorry, don't remember what they were) - I ignored both, but then crimesquad.exe stopped working. Running the day again didn't recreate the problem as this time my thief escaped without being chased by the police.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 20, 2008, 12:31:16 pm
Well, it doesn't appear to be caused by any case where you have a solo member killed in a car chase -- I tried with my founder, and nothing went wrong (besides losing the game). I'm not sure what to test next to find it. Let me know if it happens again.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2008, 12:44:11 pm
How hard would it be to add back in an option to permanently disband in the old manner in a blatant display of Liberal Arrogance? (So as to avoid having to hold down "w" until the country flips.)
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 20, 2008, 12:50:45 pm
Not too hard if I just prompt you when you disband to determine which you want.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2008, 12:59:51 pm
If any of your people have flamethrower skills, that may break the game, or may just effectively lose that skill outright.

Oh, my, yes. That was an impressive break; my founder found herself missing a leg, all her juice, most of her base stats, and near death; all her actives evaporated; and all her sleepers were renamed and extremely dead. It hurts to lose that game, which was a nicely-progressed true-pacifist run (where I'd stumbled onto a random teenager with Leadership 3, no less)... but it'll be worth it to get rid of that wretched, awful Art bug... :P
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 20, 2008, 01:19:04 pm
As a further consolation prize, sleeper-based runs should be easier in this version due to the change in how infiltration is decremented when you're spreading liberalism. The more you build up their infiltration, the less it hurts them to spread liberalism now.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2008, 02:32:15 pm
Wow. This version looks to have made it incredibly hard to learn Street Sense. I've been out tagging and instead of gradually developing it, have only gotten 0.2 skill each of the two times I was busted. That'll change things more than a little...

(On the other hand, it's making developing Law skill incredibly easy, as my balanced Int-Cha founder keeps getting busted for single counts of vandalism, which is pretty much free Law practice...)
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 20, 2008, 02:43:21 pm
This is because you now have to run away yourself when spotted spraying graffiti. Of course, it's much more dangerous to run now, because now you'll get shot at, but that's an area that should be changed. Police shouldn't be trying to gun you down for graffiti.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Neonivek on November 20, 2008, 02:48:12 pm
This is because you now have to run away yourself when spotted spraying graffiti. Of course, it's much more dangerous to run now, because now you'll get shot at, but that's an area that should be changed. Police shouldn't be trying to gun you down for graffiti.

How about for Resisting arrest? Suspected Terrorist? or Treason?

Not to mention that the cop could just say your armed and plant a weapon on you.

Wow, maybe the game should have a corruption rating...

Anyhow perhaps if the Conservatives win enough they could make Graffiti punishable by death.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2008, 02:59:35 pm
It's been said before, but this game needs tasers, with how "liberally" they're resorted to based on police regulation (by the time you get to C they'd be instantly and automatically used against someone like a fleeing tagger (at C+ they just pull their sidearm, naturally)).

Oh, and if you try to make graffiti without spraypaint equipped, you get the vector crash. The option is greyed out if you don't have one, but you can still manually select it, select it as your default Liberal activism, or pick it then unequip the paint.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 20, 2008, 03:01:22 pm
Depends on police regulation. Police gang units should be much more trigger happy (LA Rampart); not quite as much as now, but somebody giving them trouble, or suspected terrorists? No question. They'd plant guns on the body if they have to in order to explain their actions. Death squads should utterly disregard any of what would be regulations against them. Resisting arrest in itself shouldn't get normal police to shoot at you, since that includes fleeing. If resisting arrest involved attacking police with a weapon, that's different. If you're even just carrying a visible gun, or a sword or other serious weapon, that would get shots fired as well.

I thought I'd fixed the graffiti crash, but apparently not. It should be easy to fix. Again. :P
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Neonivek on November 20, 2008, 03:06:02 pm
Tasers shouldn't work like magic though... Just like in real life the Police should, due to improper training caused by its perception as perfect, use it very liberally and often cause pernament damage or even death.

Though the same has been done with Nightsticks (but they do differ in that nightsticks have a recognised risk and leave easily traced injuries. Your not going to wake up the next day and suffer heart failure because a police officer beat you with a night stick)

Then again I think in this game Tasers ARE Nightsticks... they just switch names when you get to a certain time period (which is odd because I don't think Tasers phased out nightsticks)

Today Tasers are starting to become a hot issue and thus many places that want or have tasers are starting to change their policy on Tasers... For example the Police now have to report use of the taser and the number of times they used it... As well as informing the person (and possibly the hospital) of that information.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2008, 03:18:49 pm
Oh, I'm keenly aware of these things, Neonivek. That's one of the reasons I think it'd be good to include; it's a visible mechanic that would fairly blatantly shift in response to police regulation. The fact that it's billed as "non-lethal" means the police lack the same compunctions about using it as they do "lethal" weapons, even though it's not really non-lethal. There've been solid studies contesting the assertion often put forth by police advocates that tasers will reduce use of lethal force; I'm wanting to say there was one in Toronto where the number of times lethal force was applied per year was exactly the same before and after tasers were deployed, but after there were 300 or so tasings on top of that (can't remember if there were any taser casualties during the period the study surveyed).

(This entirely ignores the instances where police use it not to protect themselves but rather just to enforce obedience, or more or less torture people without leaving lots of bruises and such. Yet more reason it'd make a nice addition in terms of visible effects of shifts in police regulations.)
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Neonivek on November 20, 2008, 03:27:29 pm
Quote
Oh, I'm keenly aware of these things, Neonivek

No accusations I just want Fox to be aware that I don't think magic tasers should be in the game.

The more frieghtening aspects of using Tasers to make people compliant is that they (the police) will repeatingly use it even past the point of safety on people who actually cannot become compliant such as people who have drug overdoses or are suffering from sevear mental distress.

Torono had a case where someone who I THINK was drunk was tasered 9 times and had to be emmited to the hospital the next day. It was only because of an investigation that he learned he was tasered so much.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: beorn080 on November 20, 2008, 04:16:49 pm
Officially, Tasers and other "non-lethal" weaponry is referred to as less then lethal. The non-lethal part of it is the police justifying the use of those weapons. There is no non-lethal weapon in existence right now.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Servant Corps on November 20, 2008, 04:27:28 pm
So in a L+ society, likely no tasers...meaning...er...what?

How can a L+ police officer can effectivley counter anybody, if they can't even use a taser to stop a person from running? You aren't going to tell me that the Police Officers will just have to run and scream slogans to try and convince people to surrender (unless those slogans can convert people to Conservatism)? Any good ideas...unless we really want to go follow the "Fat Police Officer" line?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 20, 2008, 04:31:40 pm
The GTA III San Andreas San Francisco police social worker approach? Lob verbal attacks at you as they whop you with their billy club to convert you to an NPC?

That always worked on me in San Andreas, I kept thinking "YES! Please! Let's stop and talk. Officer, I so have got problems. I'm a psycho criminal that kills people all the time. Oh man, I feel so beyond help, you've got to listen so I have a way to exercise all the difficulty of my situation without resorting to more violence."
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: beorn080 on November 20, 2008, 04:34:20 pm
Yes. In a true liberal state the police should really have any power at all beyond talking a person down. That is the true liberal mindset.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Rezan on November 20, 2008, 04:44:15 pm
I seem to be having trouble upping the Disguise on the head of my Covert Operations' squad. It's stuck at 1, regardless of what I do (beyond having someone TEACH it). Am I not allowed to have a high Stealth while training Disguise? It's at 9 right now.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Servant Corps on November 20, 2008, 04:54:24 pm
The game uses whatever skill is higher. You got a high disguise, so the game uses that instead of Stealth.

EDIT: While I could see how an L+ Society might be...er...funny, it might let criminals goes free, making the LCS' job easier, making the game too easy.

Though I guess it could be countered by having all other criminals be more powerful too...
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: beorn080 on November 20, 2008, 05:15:59 pm
If stealth is higher then disguise, then disguise will be incredibly hard to train. The only possible way I can see to train disguise would either be extremely good bluffing during raids since I don't think stealth applies there, or extremely good disguises against high perception conservatives. Or have someone with an extremely high disguise teach him until it balances out.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2008, 05:59:05 pm
So in a L+ society, likely no tasers...meaning...er...what?

How can a L+ police officer can effectivley counter anybody, if they can't even use a taser to stop a person from running?

I'd say in L+ the police would only be able to chase, tackle, and bodily restrain unarmed perps. If the perp pulls improvised or small melee weapons (nightsticks, knives), or tries to attack with their bare hands, out comes the taser. If they pull any weapon heavier than that, out comes a gun.

The idea isn't that L or L+ societies want to cripple the police, it's that they don't want police to abuse their authority or use "unreasonable" force (i.e., force out of proportion with the threat facing the police; the police may not use force to eliminate vanishingly small risk to themselves by transferring that risk to citizens). Incidentally, this is related to the idea behind police elections with immediate recall; if the police DO abuse their power, they can be immediately be stripped of it. They're held accountable directly by the people they ostensibly serve rather than to the government.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2008, 06:08:31 pm
It might be nice to add a "Sleepers" count to the score summary. I just finished a true pacifist game (no crimes reported or otherwise except vandalism, resisting arrest (from running), and the two computer charges you can get from harassing websites). My score listed 10 recruits and 2 martyrs, but I won with over 3 pages of sleepers. I'm pretty sure the "Recruits" count included the 4 or 5 sleepers I directly recruited, but all the rest came from extending sleeper networks and thus were unlisted.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: mainiac on November 20, 2008, 08:33:50 pm
What do you need to do to extend a sleeper network?  I've never had the option available.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 20, 2008, 08:41:10 pm
Your sleeper needs Leadership or 50 juice. I.e., they need to be able to recruit a Liberal.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: mainiac on November 20, 2008, 08:45:31 pm
How do they gain juice?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 20, 2008, 08:56:29 pm
I overlooked keeping track of sleepers recruiting sleepers for the score screen, that will be fixed for next release.

Sleepers get juice doing anything productive. That means spreading liberalism, stealing, embezzling, etc.. If you assign them to act conservative, this will strip their juice away, but not push it below zero.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: FunkyBomb on November 20, 2008, 09:17:05 pm
L+ police could resort to special verbal attacks that have a chance of causing the target to stop resisting arrest/shooting/whatever.

For extra silliness, police and SWAT members who are recruited during L or L+ police law could have more charisma and possibly a few persuasion points, from all the sensitivity training and lessons in how to talk down a perp.  :P
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: The Moonlit Knight on November 20, 2008, 09:29:58 pm
L+ police could resort to special verbal attacks that have a chance of causing the target to stop resisting arrest/shooting/whatever.

For extra silliness, police and SWAT members who are recruited during L or L+ police law could have more charisma and possibly a few persuasion points, from all the sensitivity training and lessons in how to talk down a perp.  :P
I like this idea.

Honestly, a lot of the L+ ideals are almost more anarchist than liberal; the little + sign there seems to denote a transition from American moderate liberalism to radical leftism. So I think it would make sense for police in an L+ society to really just be more like trained mediators.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: beorn080 on November 20, 2008, 09:46:18 pm
I always thought that the little + sign next to liberal or conservative meant it went past realms of normalcy. For example the animal rights issue, Liberal+ would be animals would be equal in status to humans completely while Conservative+ would require everyone to kick 10 dogs a day and only endangered species would be served as food.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Squeegy on November 20, 2008, 10:39:35 pm
Also, you don't get newspaper articles about kidnappings anymore.

Edit: In fact, you don't get newspapers at all.
Edit2: Except on violent things.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: EuchreJack on November 20, 2008, 11:34:10 pm
Law skill is now capped by the Wisdom stat.  Kinda bad for creating Hippie Lawyers.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: John Hopoate on November 20, 2008, 11:37:00 pm
What do the black GNG spraypaint tags on the walls mean?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: beorn080 on November 20, 2008, 11:38:30 pm
Gang.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 21, 2008, 12:01:54 am
Law skill is now capped by the Wisdom stat.  Kinda bad for creating Hippie Lawyers.

Law isn't capped by Wisdom. At the end of my last game, my founder had her Law skill at 4 or 5, while her Wisdom was still at 1.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: EuchreJack on November 21, 2008, 12:08:25 am
You're right, I started playing the save file again, and the Law skill turned from +0.99 to 1.00, so it was just a minor glitch, nothing to worry about.  Sorry.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Squeegy on November 21, 2008, 12:09:53 am
Guessing Law is capped by int?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: John Hopoate on November 21, 2008, 12:14:29 am
I have the option of making "bunker gear" clothing, it's expensive ($500) and difficult to make, what exactly is it?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Squeegy on November 21, 2008, 12:15:37 am
Firefighter gear.

EDIT: Also, sleepers can become leaders.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 21, 2008, 12:57:43 am
EDIT: Also, sleepers can become leaders.

Does this cause any problems in the game? I might leave it in as an unintended feature.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 21, 2008, 01:01:46 am
Also, you don't get newspaper articles about kidnappings anymore.

Edit: In fact, you don't get newspapers at all.
Edit2: Except on violent things.

Except stories involving murders, to be precise. An unfortunate side effect of me trying to be clever but forgetting that news story types are not stored as a bit field. Thanks for pointing this out.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: mainiac on November 21, 2008, 01:02:59 am
L+ police could resort to special verbal attacks that have a chance of causing the target to stop resisting arrest/shooting/whatever.

For extra silliness, police and SWAT members who are recruited during L or L+ police law could have more charisma and possibly a few persuasion points, from all the sensitivity training and lessons in how to talk down a perp.  :P

This would go nicely with replacing prisons with rehabilitation centers which would rehabilitate your liberals into peaceful members of society.  While an L+ society is less dangerous for your life, it's actually more dangerous for the cause since it's more effective at eliminating LCS members.  These cops should be liberal btw, so that attacking them would alienate everyone ("You shot him!  You fucking shot him!  He was offering you a hug and a teddy bear and you shot him right in the fucking leg!"  And now I have an image of a burly southern cop offering a perp a teddy bear...)  A juice loss would also make sense for shooting liberal cops.

Speaking of making the end game harder.  If gun laws are L+, then gun related violence should make people more conservative on guns rather then liberal, since they realized all of a sudden that only the criminals have guns.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Squeegy on November 21, 2008, 01:06:36 am
EDIT: Also, sleepers can become leaders.

Does this cause any problems in the game? I might leave it in as an unintended feature.

No, but if all my active liberals are arrested and executed I lose.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 21, 2008, 01:28:03 am
You're right, I started playing the save file again, and the Law skill turned from +0.99 to 1.00, so it was just a minor glitch, nothing to worry about.  Sorry.

Oh, that's just what happens when you have enough experience in a skill to go up a level. It stops at X.99 and doesn't go up to X+1 until the next day.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 21, 2008, 01:48:11 am
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/jonathansfox/Picture5-2.png)
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: beorn080 on November 21, 2008, 01:49:50 am
It would appear that by giving up when the police raid, you can avoid being taken to jail. I was just raided for the second time and the police didn't arrest anyone.

Does that mean that cops can use conversion attacks when unarmed soon?

Edit: Newspapers are disabled. I just brainwashed a corporate manager from the news studio and I couldn't make him a sleeper, so I am assuming he was reported kidnapped and no newspaper was displayed.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 21, 2008, 01:53:58 am
Not in general, in this case. Just Liberal cops not in your party. Their powers against you come from representing Liberal society, not inherent knowledge or ability.
EDIT: Also, sleepers can become leaders.

Does this cause any problems in the game? I might leave it in as an unintended feature.

No, but if all my active liberals are arrested and executed I lose.

What causes you to lose, specifically? Does it give you a message explaining the reason for defeat?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: E. Albright on November 21, 2008, 02:51:45 am
It would appear that by giving up when the police raid, you can avoid being taken to jail. I was just raided for the second time and the police didn't arrest anyone.

They'll only arrest those individuals with outstanding criminal records. If no one there is wanted for anything, they'll arrest no one if you give up. If only some of your people have committed crimes, they'll only arrest them.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 21, 2008, 03:07:27 am
General query: how much hair-tearing-out am I likely to incur and/or inflict if I try grabbing the current source and seeing about maybe actually finally looking at trying to refactor things? I'm kinda wary of trying right now as you seem to be doing moderately active development, but I wouldn't mind at least trying to take a stab at it (assuming, ha ha, that I can find the time).
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: beorn080 on November 21, 2008, 03:09:25 am
There should have been a couple of kidnapping charges. I was recruiting sleepers with the quick try to convert no restraints method and they escaped. Later my leader got beaten on a date with a cop I tried to kidnap and was charged with 2 counts of kidnapping which would have been the two escapees.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: mainiac on November 21, 2008, 06:31:44 am
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/jonathansfox/Picture5-2.png)

My day is made!
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Jetman123 on November 21, 2008, 06:47:15 am
Don't forget pepper spray. The police even use unarmed combat sometime. I think a worthwhile upgrade to this would be to use my secondary weapon idea, as I stated in another thread.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Little on November 21, 2008, 06:00:11 pm
I've seen a newspaper article on someone being kidnapped, the standard one about them being gone for 7-8 days.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 21, 2008, 06:54:06 pm
I don't know the exact circumstances, but there was a bug in 3.17.0 that makes it high probability that any story that does not involve a murder will be suppressed. This is already fixed for the next release.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Karlito on November 21, 2008, 07:16:29 pm
Ah, I was wondering why my brainwashed conservatives were going straight to joining the liberal ranks. 
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Squeegy on November 21, 2008, 07:43:57 pm
Not in general, in this case. Just Liberal cops not in your party. Their powers against you come from representing Liberal society, not inherent knowledge or ability.
EDIT: Also, sleepers can become leaders.

Does this cause any problems in the game? I might leave it in as an unintended feature.

No, but if all my active liberals are arrested and executed I lose.

What causes you to lose, specifically? Does it give you a message explaining the reason for defeat?

Just says the LCS was executed.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: EuchreJack on November 22, 2008, 03:35:39 am
When I disbanded the LCS, my sleeper was in the hospital, due out in one week.

She's been there a year, and I don't think she's coming out anytime soon.

Now, how to exploit this bug:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Squeegy on November 22, 2008, 05:36:29 am
Some suggestions:

Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 22, 2008, 01:00:32 pm
  • An Elite Liberal (1,000 juice) can be "rehabilitated and freed" if you give up during a siege. Fix this?

Juice or no juice, the brainwashed are always vulnerable to being rehabilitated. This just means you can't ever have your B/W'd surrender. I'd hope this doesn't change.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: mainiac on November 22, 2008, 01:51:25 pm
I believe you're supposed to have an opportunity to rescue the brainwashed before they are rehabilitated.

Maybe there should be a scale of how your treated which could be linked to societies view of sentencing as shown by the death penalty law.  At elite liberal, everyone is rehabilitated because the prison is a rehabilitation center.  At liberal, low juice and brainwashed are rehabilitated but anyone with more then 100 juice can resist.  At moderate just the brainwashed are rehabilitated.  In conservative societies though, they don't believe that stupid brainwashing excuse and treat you like anyone else.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Rezan on November 22, 2008, 02:26:01 pm
To me, logically, a high "heart" stat would be good for counteracting rehabilitation (and obviously an Elite Liberal would have less of a chance being rehabilitated than an activist) considering what you are trying to do is give the person more heart and less wisdom. Rehabilitation would do the opposite - break down heart and build up wisdom.

If the person has interrogation skill, wouldn't they be better at coping with the rehabilitation as well?

What I propose is that rather than having people instantly be rehabilitated, a new location is made. An actual "rehabilitation centre", in which your brainwash-ees are placed after being "liberated". The more time they spend in there, the higher their wisdom becomes, and the lower their heart. When their wisdom/heart difference is at a certain point, the person is rehabilitated and cannot be "re-liberated" by the Liberal Freedom Fighters.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: mainiac on November 22, 2008, 03:21:06 pm
Linking rehabilitation to heart and wisdom seems wrong for me.  Firstly, it's bleeding heart liberals who argue for rehabilitation and pessimistically wise conservatives who say it won't work.  Secondly, I don't see why being wise (or conservatively inclined) makes a person easier to rehabilitate.  What matters more is the strength of the rehabilitatee's convictions and that's better judged by juice/noteriety.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Rezan on November 22, 2008, 03:43:22 pm
I'm just relating this to the interrogation. Personally I don't think "heart" or "wisdom" should have anything to do with your political alignment what so ever. In interrogation; your goal is to remove wisdom and add heart, and so I thought rehabilitation of this (for the conservatives) would be the opposite.

A better term for conservative rehabilitation would be "re-education" I guess.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: mainiac on November 22, 2008, 04:03:55 pm
Maybe there could be two different systems?  Under conservatism, they try to brainwash sleepers back to conservatism, so it's the same as liberal interrogation but in reverse.  Under liberalism they try to psycho-analyze everyone's criminal tendencies and treat them with psychiatry and medication.  So juice, wisdom and social skills all allow you to resist treatment under liberal rehabilitation while persuasion (and thus heart) and interrogation allow you to hinder the diagnosis, meaning they won't rehabilitate you as effectively or they might even think you're cured and set you free.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: penguinofhonor on November 22, 2008, 04:29:36 pm
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it yet (though I may have skipped over it) but the exits of buildings have walls around them.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: The Moonlit Knight on November 22, 2008, 04:33:42 pm
Make it so that when being raided, you can wear the correct clothes and walk past the bastards. Need to roll disguise check?
I thought this was already implemented? A while ago, I always wore Police Uniforms during raids and they never noticed me walking out the front door. I don't think this has been changed but then again I haven't had the opportunity to test it recently.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 22, 2008, 05:34:01 pm
As far as "re-rehabilitating" the brainwashed, I will continue to advocate their automatically succumbing. It's not breaking them back to conservatism, it's re-establishing their original identity as a normal (albeit Conservative) member of society. That's a sight easier achieve than turning a normal (albeit Conservative) person into an unflinching violent terrorist (moreso if it's acting against their political ideology). It's not "we're going to beat you and drug you and crush your id", it's "hey, you were brainwashed by those evil (Liberal) bastard, but we rescued you from that, understand, and won't hold it against you... so you can go back to your old life (with a slap on the wrist or less)". Remember, these people didn't join LCS because they wanted to or believed in its ideals, they joined because their id was crushed and they were convinced it was what they should do (possibly ALL they could do).

Entirely setting rationalizations aside for a moment, auto-de-brainwashing is not without merit purely in terms of gameplay. It serves as some small balance for the fact that brainwashed members are "free" in terms of Leadership slots.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 22, 2008, 05:49:15 pm
Some suggestions:

  • Make it so that when being raided, you can wear the correct clothes and walk past the bastards. Need to roll disguise check?

You have to Talk and then Bluff, but you -can- walk out of sieges. It's best to have someone with some high wisdom and disguise... I think I might detatch wisdom from bluffing and replace it charisma or persuasion or something.

Maybe there could be two different systems?  Under conservatism, they try to brainwash sleepers back to conservatism, so it's the same as liberal interrogation but in reverse.  Under liberalism they try to psycho-analyze everyone's criminal tendencies and treat them with psychiatry and medication.  So juice, wisdom and social skills all allow you to resist treatment under liberal rehabilitation while persuasion (and thus heart) and interrogation allow you to hinder the diagnosis, meaning they won't rehabilitate you as effectively or they might even think you're cured and set you free.

For rehabilitation, I like this basic idea. There's already a re-education camp for C+ society, we could make it function as a proper brainwashing camp, and have the prison also work for rehabilitation in Liberal society. I'm hesitant to add a second location, simply because for practical purposes, violent criminals would be sentenced to rehabilitation in prison. For abolition of prisons we could just rename that location to be a rehabilitation center.

Note that even if you have time to rescue brainwashed people before they're rehabilitated, I would still want to have them rehabilitated very quickly, regardless of juice level. They may be heroes for your cause, but their entire reasoning for fighting for you based on an illusion, and once they're out of your hands, that illusion can be quickly broken. I might just give you a month or so to bail them out of the police station, like people who are getting deported.

On the topic of Liberals converting your people, the new Elite Liberal police officers currently use Wisdom attacks to convert your people (first decreasing Juice, then increasing Wisdom, then converting you entirely). They don't turn Conservative, of course, they just abandon you still as Liberals, but the basic attack is identical. From my playing with it, this is pretty fair as gameplay goes -- but I figured I'd put that up for discussion since there's some objection to Liberals converting LCS members through Wisdom.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: The Moonlit Knight on November 22, 2008, 07:10:45 pm
I think I might detatch wisdom from bluffing and replace it charisma or persuasion or something.
Please do? Charisma or Persuasion would make so much more sense. Having Wisdom add some kind of BONUS to it might be reasonable (easier to play yourself off as Conservative when you understand their opinions, yeah?), but having that as the main stat completely debilitates the skill.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: mainiac on November 22, 2008, 08:54:00 pm
I don't like the idea of liberal cops giving you wisdom but it does seem kinda necessary.  Maybe liberal cops could just strip away your juice, and when it's all gone you surrender and are taken to the rehabilitation center.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Servant Corps on November 22, 2008, 09:05:02 pm
Well, I like the idea of liberal cops giving wisdom. According to the LCS, their position is the only LIBERAL position out there, and everyone who manages to deviate a little bit is CONSERVATIVE scum that must be ENLIGHTENED or brutally DEALT WITH. The game's mechanics are reflecting society within the eyes of the LCS, so it is better for "Wisdom" to represent any sort of devation from LCS' conception of right and wrong, and the Liberal Police obivously having lots of Wisdom because of the Police's refusal to 'teach' their Conservative brethen.

Oh, and put me down for "semi-instant-rehabilition". If it can take me 10 days to convert a guy, it should take them 10 days to cure it. Of course, in my view of the LCS setting, "rehabilition" is just another name for cult deprogramming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprogramming), so meh.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 22, 2008, 09:22:14 pm
Wisdom attacks already strip away juice before affecting Wisdom, so if L+ Police went to being just damaging juice and conversion at 0, it would make them super powerful.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Hague on November 22, 2008, 11:26:31 pm
Personally, I believe that there shouldn't be any liberal police. However, when society is liberal the police will begrudgingly accept moderates into their ranks. These moderates can do what the liberal police do and mediate. When they overcome their target the target becomes moderate and gives up their fight.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: EuchreJack on November 23, 2008, 12:08:04 am
The main problem with the idea of only keeping the brainwashed in the police station is the same that exists with only keeping the illegals in the police station:

What if they are captured by the cops at the end of the month?  Suddenly, your elite liberal soldier is gone, sometimes in a single day.

I propose both groups get sent to prison after the police station, for simplicity sake. 

After all, illegal aliens usually take a while to process before being sent out of the country.  Also, even though the deprogramming of the brainwashed citizens probably is swift, it's gonna take a while before the conservatives trust them enough to re-admit them to society, plus all the paperwork due to their crimes needs to be cleared up.  Finally, both groups are going to be pressured to provide as much information on LCS activities as they can, which takes time.

What might be more accurate is send the Brainwashed to the Genetic Labs for deprogramming and study, and sending the illegals to the Army Base for holding and brutal interrogations on LCS activities.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: mainiac on November 23, 2008, 12:11:38 am
Wisdom attacks already strip away juice before affecting Wisdom, so if L+ Police went to being just damaging juice and conversion at 0, it would make them super powerful.

You'd still be able to rescue them from the rehabilitation center, whereas typically they'd be gone unless you converted them back on the spot.  Or you could make their attacks slightly easier to resist.  But also, don't we want the endgame to be harder?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 23, 2008, 01:17:09 am
Actually, what I'd like to see Liberal (or Moderate) cops in L+ society do is damage juice until it hits zero, at which point the target doesn't convert, they surrender. The problem is, since this is in a firefight, the LCS might very well kill all the police, so it would be bad if the surrendered LCS members vanished immediately to jail. It'd be more programming to implement, but if they could be be "stunned" either until combat ends (i.e., they're restrained upon surrendering) or for X rounds (after which time, should the fight still be going, they figure the cops are losing, so sweet talking mediator or no, they're going to start fighting back again (until and unless the mediator "restrains" them once more)). Or I suppose the mediator who "talked them down" could vanish out of combat with them, much as tackling cops do in a footchase.

(People with 0 Juice should surrender to L+ police upon being politely asked to, as they haven't been instilled with enough Liberal revolutionary values to buck the L+ social norms. This whole discussion makes me think of the scene in Demolition Man where the futuristic police first attempt to recapture Wesley Snipes' character...)
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: AlBorland on November 23, 2008, 11:10:56 am
Kind of an obscure bug I'm running into.  I'm unable to activate my lawyer with a broken neck.

In case it matters, I recruited him by meeting him at a site as a conservative, breaking his neck with a kick in the head, kidnapped him, converted him to a sleeper, and called him into the active squad and stole him a wheelchair.  Now having him do any actions from the (a) menu crash the game.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Skeeblix on November 23, 2008, 11:14:21 am
That's definitely an amusing one.  :D
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Little on November 23, 2008, 06:11:38 pm
I think there's a few bugs connected to Graffiti.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 23, 2008, 06:23:10 pm
Could you be more specific about the graffiti bugs? That's a little too vague for me to do anything about. :P
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 24, 2008, 10:41:59 am
I'm struggling to start out in this version.  Even with a pure E character, it takes easily a week to recruit a hippie, I can't find any safe way to juice up (the best I've found is stealing from garment makers, yielding a mere 1 juice per item), and I've been gunned down twice for minor infractions.

On a side note, why does theft raise suspicion but not get you shot by random armed tenants, while trying to break down a door (when nobody's around to see it) will get you shot by everyone you meet?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: mainiac on November 24, 2008, 10:50:23 am
What version were you playing last?  Recruitment taking a week is not surprising.  Only ultra persuasive characters can insta-recruit.

Safe and slow ways to gain juice include activism and community service which can get you up to 20 juice without risk of life or limb.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Tanase on November 24, 2008, 10:59:22 am
I found a quick run around the park and other such venues with a can of spray paint in hand bolsters my juice like no other. Quick, easy, and repeatable for the most part.

That aside, I'm terrible at this game. I wish there was a way to remove unwanted members from the LCS, but that's only because I'm picky and don't want my ranks filled with drug addicts, hippies, and converted kidnappings that took too long to become sleepers.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: mainiac on November 24, 2008, 11:28:06 am
I set my extra's to fundraising myself but I hear naked attacks on the police are popular as a means of disposal.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Think0028 on November 24, 2008, 01:17:14 pm
For unwanted members, I just set them all to writing to newspapers. Mainly because then they don't get arrested if I forget to put clothes on them.

As for my early game strategy, I just cruise in the apartments and try to get as many people as I can to talk about the issues. Once I've built up about 10 or so by luck and chance, I sit still for a week or so and just keep talking to them. Huge Persuasion buildup.

For juice, I build up Disguise next and raid the jury room in the courthouse repeatedly.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: penguinofhonor on November 24, 2008, 01:25:49 pm
So teenagers aren't allowed in the Gentleman's Club. That makes sense.

The problem is that the bouncer says that they're violating the dress code, even when they're wearing an expensive suit.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Neonivek on November 24, 2008, 01:47:11 pm
So teenagers aren't allowed in the Gentleman's Club. That makes sense.

The problem is that the bouncer says that they're violating the dress code, even when they're wearing an expensive suit.

Simple you forgot your horned hat!
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 25, 2008, 12:47:54 am
I currently have a save where my interrogator didn't quit Tending a Hostage after I successfully turned them into a sleeper.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Squeegy on November 25, 2008, 01:02:37 am
Common bug. Not game-breaking in any way.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 25, 2008, 03:42:59 pm
I see you still haven't fixed an ancient mostly-harmless-but-certainly-annoying bug:  If you send a squad to raid the Homeless Shelter, pressing any key (not just 's') will pass a turn.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 25, 2008, 04:10:34 pm
Wow, that must be truly ancient. I never even knew that bug existed.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 25, 2008, 05:43:59 pm
Aye, I didn't find the hostage-tending bug to be critical, but as I'd never seen it or even seen it mentioned...

I also have a save with some fun vector subscript crashes that appeared to arise from mixing pedestrians with passengers in the same squad when leaving a site... but this was extra-fun because the save didn't appear to, um, stay the same when I reloaded it. I reproduced the crash once; tried a third time and got a crash when going to the site instead; backed up the save; tried a fourth time and found that the passengers then all listed as pedestrians but it'd still crash on leaving the site. The same holds true for the backed-up save.

(I got around it by re-assigning everyone to another vehicle, and continued as if nothing untoward had happened.)
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Rafal99 on November 25, 2008, 10:52:49 pm
Quote from: LCS
The Education of Angel Takayoshi: Day 5

The Automaton is tied hands and feet to a metal chair
in the middle of a back room.

Rafal tries to expose the true Liberal side of Angel Takayoshi.
Angel Takayoshi wonders what mental disease has possessed Rafal.

LOL!  :D

Edit: Sorry for off-topic. I found it very funny and had to post it somewhere... ;)
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Squeegy on November 25, 2008, 11:05:49 pm
Yeeaaaahhh... that's completely off-topic and a totally pointless post.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Think0028 on November 26, 2008, 11:21:37 am
I'm not even sure what's supposed to be funny. That's just a standard response for high-Science conservatives, right?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: penguinofhonor on November 26, 2008, 12:06:24 pm
I just realized something about paraplegic liberals. Being capped at 1 agility means that they can't be useful in combat in the one way you would expect them to be: using guns.
I suggest that the game keeps track of how much agility a wheelchair-ridden liberal would have and caps their gun skill at that with a small penalty to show that they wouldn't be able to aim as well if they wouldn't be able to move their entire body around.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 26, 2008, 03:02:21 pm
If Liberal Crime Squad were being commercially developed by a multi-million dollar development house, it would have structured play testing where people would come in off the street, sign non-disclosure agreements, and be video taped as they played the game. Designers would not only note laughs, but every smile, analyzing the players' reactions to determine what works and what doesn't. Afterwards, the play tester would fill out paperwork describing their experience, what they found particularly fun as well what they thought could be improved.

In game development, knowledge of what people find enjoyable is of no less importance to a designer than knowing what is broken or buggy. So I feel kind of bad for Rafal99 being told that his post is off-topic or pointless. I mean, hey, this is the thread about the latest release of the game. We can post what we don't like in this thread, but not what we do like?

I guess I can understand why people could see it that way, but from my point of view, it isn't just meaningful feedback but actually personally rewarding in that it makes me feel good about all the energy, thought, and time I've put into the game. So I don't wish to tell anyone what they should think, but I hope that Rafel99 does not feel too chagrined for posting that.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Guy Montag on November 26, 2008, 03:26:41 pm
I think the interrogation mini-game is the most hilarious thing in the game.

Anyways, I don't think Police should ever be Liberals. They should always remain conservatives even if the society is Elite-Liberal. I mean, you still have recruitable hippies even in an a hellish Arch-conservative society, there should always be Conservative reactionaries running around.

I think if you wanted to have social-worker cops, just make a new type of Police character that shows up in Elite-liberal societies like the Death Squad guys show up in Arch-conservative societies.

"Peace Officer" would be an suitibly Liberal thing to call them. I can picture them being like the Spandex-wearing bicycle cops or the guys driving Smart Cars and wearing those bright-colored yellow uniforms designed to not intimidate people.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: E. Albright on November 26, 2008, 04:02:51 pm
Police Mediator might work for a moniker as well.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Rafal99 on November 26, 2008, 04:27:06 pm
I'm not even sure what's supposed to be funny. That's just a standard response for high-Science conservatives, right?
Yes, he was Eminent Scientist.
It is my first time interrogating such an important Conservative. I expected something usual like "Holds firm." or "Quietly considers LCS ideas.", then I saw this and laughted hard. ;)

I think the interrogation mini-game is the most hilarious thing in the game.
I just found that yesterday. Generally all ingame conversations with Conservatives are really funny. I also love how Conservative and Liberal newspapers describe the same event in a totally different ways. I always laugh when I read them. ;)

(...) I hope that Rafal99 does not feel too chagrined for posting that.
I don't. We are in the Internet after all, you cannot care too much. ;)
There was also a fault on my side. There are more intelligent ways to describe that something is funny than "<quote> LOL!" ...
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Rezan on November 26, 2008, 04:54:45 pm
Rafal wins.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Squeegy on November 26, 2008, 05:46:13 pm
There was also a fault on my side. There are more intelligent ways to describe that something is funny than "<quote> LOL!" ...

The lol in all capitals plus the numbers in your name led me to believe you were, shall we say, a noob.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 26, 2008, 06:39:43 pm
Let it ring from hill to dale that the current source fails to compile.  It's still plagued with errors in the manager, organization, and serializer files.

So I borrowed some working versions from an old revision 216 directory, and they worked...  kinda.  Ultimately, g++ craps out with a linker error (which did not happen with said earlier version) that seems to be related to those files.

Clearly you've gotten it to compile (downloadable binary and all), so you must have files that aren't horribly broken.  Do you mind putting those on sourceforge?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Cosmonot on November 26, 2008, 07:57:12 pm
The last time the subject was brought up, Fox said he hasn't been updating the makefile, just the visual c++ project file. I'd bet that he hasn't had time to do it yet.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: penguinofhonor on November 27, 2008, 08:04:26 pm
I have several bugs to report, and I'll get pictures for them later when I get to my normal computer.

1. I have a teenager that was born on the 14th of " ". There isn't a month where there usually is, just an extra blank space.
2. I have two sleepers (both kidnapped and brainwashed) that are at 50 juice but can't recruit any liberals. My sleeper that I recruited normally can have a follower but won't get one no matter how long I have him on "Expand Sleeper Network".
3. I had a wheelchair-ridden liberal that had over 100 juice but somehow was capped at 0 followers.
4. My sleepers aren't gaining any juice past 50. This might not be a bug.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Servant Corps on November 27, 2008, 08:07:19 pm
Quote
2. I have two sleepers (both kidnapped and brainwashed) that are at 50 juice but can't recruit any liberals.

That would explain it. Brainwashed sleepers can never recruit. Partly a game balanced mechanism since conversion is easy, and partly because a brainwashed loon isn't really going to be good at trying to convice others to join.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: penguinofhonor on November 27, 2008, 08:14:44 pm
Wait, if no brainwashed liberals can recruit then it would explain how the wheelchair-ridden liberal couldn't recruit. She was a cop that I brainwashed.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Servant Corps on November 27, 2008, 08:20:33 pm
In a previous version of LCS I played (not sure if this was changed), brainwashed people were still able to seduce, so you could still find some way to put that police officer to use. The amount of seduced liberals per person usually is capped at 6 though...
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: a1s on November 28, 2008, 09:13:48 pm
The amount of seduced liberals per person usually is capped at 6 though...
as far as I know it's capped by you seduction skill (I think it's (seduction/2)+1)

also, if brainwashed people can't recruit, why even have the "expand sleeper network" command?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 28, 2008, 09:22:39 pm
The amount of seduced liberals per person usually is capped at 6 though...
as far as I know it's capped by you seduction skill (I think it's (seduction/2)+1)

also, if brainwashed people can't recruit, why even have the "expand sleeper network" command?

Agreed, it'll be gone next release, replaced with something more informative about the character being unable to recruit. Same when you just need juice to unlock the command -- it'll say so.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 29, 2008, 02:34:03 am
As an amendment my source code woes above, I'd like to add that apparently daily/shopsnstuff.cpp has been broken at least as far back as revision 220 (says "enum Weapon" where it should say "enum Weapons").  I suspect there may be several such holes in the source posted on SF.

Regardless, I'm trying to pinpoint the revision that introduced the linker error(s) (undefined references all over the place relating to serializer and such, though the object files compiled just fine).  It's possible there's an issue that your dev environment automagically handles that mine (an uninspiring Cygwin setup) does not.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: penguinofhonor on November 29, 2008, 02:39:15 am
A quick note: There's no place to buy axes. I'm thinking that the current axe should be renamed "Fire Axe" and there should be a battle axe for sale in the Oubliette, though the Oubliette's weapons menu is full. Not sure what to do about that.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 02:46:56 am
The main thing is to find the file that contains the list of files to compile and add all source files created since that file was last updated. I will try to do so before too long. Notwithstanding my Windows-centric development pattern, I'm actually doing all this emulated on a mac, so I am very sympathetic to the cross-platform issue.

It's odd and somewhat disturbing that the VC++ compiled the enum Weapon errors without complaint for all these versions. It's not a hole in the commit, it's just seriously been like that the whole time, and I didn't know because my compiler didn't complain. :-[

Eventually I'd like to switch to using something like the black market interface for all shops, which will resolve the Oubliette issue.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 29, 2008, 02:58:15 am
I assume then that the following files work for you like a charm as well:
manager/manager.h
organization/orghandler.cpp
configfile.h

I forget how to fix those (several errors, incl. syntax), as template nonsense is beyond me.  I've been using corrected ones (somebody posted a fix some months back IIRC).  If I can relearn diff I should be able to post the required fixes here if you like.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 03:12:27 am
Template nonsense is never easy, but I can take a look at it if you show me the errors. The diff would be easier though.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 29, 2008, 03:36:07 am
Code: [Select]
diff -I --text --recursive FIXED/configfile.h BROKEN/configfile.h
62c62
< template <> class configContainer<std::vector<int> > : public configContainerBase
---
> template <> class configContainer<std::vector<int>> : public configContainerBase
diff -I --text --recursive FIXED/manager/manager.h BROKEN/manager/manager.h
22c22
< */
---
> */
28d27
< #include <stdexcept>
80c79
<
---

88c87
<    typename vector<T>::iterator iter; // Iterator to step through my object list
---
>    vector<T>::iterator iter; // Iterator to step through my object list
104c103
<    throw std::invalid_argument(error);
---
>    throw invalid_argument(error);
110c109
<    typename vector<T>::iterator iter; // Iterator to step through my object list
---
>    vector<T>::iterator iter; // Iterator to step through my object list
137c136
< typename vector<T>::iterator iter; // Iterator to step through the object list
---
> vector<object>::iterator iter; // Iterator to step through the object list
146c145
< objects.erase(iter);
---
> objects.erase(iter1);
151c150
< else iter->deleteOrgRecord(obj.ID);
---
> else iter1->deleteOrgRecord(obj.ID);
165c164
< this->nextID = 0;
---
> nextID = 0;
169,173c168,172
< copyClass* getInstance(int baseID)
< {
< copyClass* instance = new copyClass;
< initialize(*instance, baseID);
< return instance;
---
> copyClass* getInstance(int baseID)
> {
> copyClass* instance = new copyClass;
> initialize(*instance, baseID);
> return instance;
176,179c175,178
< void initialize(copyClass &instance, int ID)
< {
< /* find the correct object */
< this->getObj(ID).initializeInstance(instance);
---
> void initialize(copyClass &instance, int ID)
> {
> /* find the correct object */
> getObj(ID).initializeInstance(instance);
188c187
< #endif
---
> #endif
\ No newline at end of file
diff -I --text --recursive FIXED/organization/orghandler.cpp BROKEN/organization/orghandler.cpp
26,27d25
< #include <list>
< #include "orghandler.h"
114d111
<

The broken files were taken from r220 (the most recent of the ones I've looked at thus far), but SF says none of those have changed since r213.  Does that help at all?

Now that I think about it, there may have been an associated fix to another file (god only knows what) that would fix this linker error.  Guess I need to find that damn post somewhere around here...

I think it came from here, especially since either r216 or r217 was the last one I toyed with:

I'm working on getting 31104branch r216 to compile and run on Linux. http://omploader.org/vbXAx/linux-compile-fixes.patch handles the former, but the game segfaults after the opening questions still... I'm looking into that at the moment. (considering the obvious typos in this revision that would have prevented it from building on any compiler, I'm afraid it was not buildtested, and so obviously not playtested either)

(incidentally, please remind me that the next time I go around looking for answers to obscure linker errors (http://gcc.gnu.org/faq.html#vtables)... I check if all the project files even get compiled first)
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 04:10:10 am
Found the file I needed to update, changed according to the diff you provided. Some of that was only working on this end because Visual Studio was culling it due to nothing calling it -- it would never have actually compiled. :P I'm about to start trying to build on my mac. If it will build for OSX, it should build for Linux, and I'll commit.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 05:20:00 am
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/jonathansfox/Picture3-2.png)

:D Try revision 240 (latest as of this writing) to compile for Linux and let me know how it goes.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Bien on November 29, 2008, 06:29:34 am
Just a very minor problem. Okay, so my founder has a crapload of skills, and some of them I can't see directly, but I can see the effects. Like the First Aid skill, although I can't see it. I can still see my founder try to heal other Liberals. So why not have a scrolling stats and skills screen, like the up arrow key to move up a line and so on? I'm pretty sure it would only take a short time of coding. Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 06:34:19 am
Already working on it for the next release. It's more work than you'd expect (and more work than I expected when I started). :-X

Plus I'm restructuring the profile page a bit -- it was getting extremely crowded.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: BishopX on November 29, 2008, 10:45:32 am
Jonathan, do you have any idea about an estimate for the next release date?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: mainiac on November 29, 2008, 12:47:43 pm
Mr Fox has a thankless mission.  As soon as he releases again, we'll start pestering anew.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Neonivek on November 29, 2008, 12:50:57 pm
I don't remember... Do students become other classes by attending school?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Rezan on November 29, 2008, 01:07:45 pm
Students? Classes? What? Did something just fly straight over my head?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 29, 2008, 01:50:31 pm
Try revision 240 (latest as of this writing) to compile for Linux and let me know how it goes.

While it's compiling, I'll post something I dug up last night.  Apparently there was a more complete patch than what I posted, and most the files it affects had not changed between revisions 216 and 239.  It may be useful.  Then again, maybe not.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'll update this shortly...

UPDATE:  240 compiles with nary a glitch (unless you count all those harmless, ancient "no newline at end of file" warnings).  You win a cookie (http://internetcookie.ytmnd.com (http://internetcookie.ytmnd.com)).
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Aqizzar on November 29, 2008, 07:04:33 pm
Just got a crash with this version.

I had my founder and another liberal stealing cars.  First the founder died, then it played the other liberal, who also died.  When I pressed C to reflect on my lack of skill, I got this-

Debug Assertion Failed!

Program: ...
File C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 8\VC\include\vector
Line: 756

Expression: vector subscript out of range.

For information blah blah see your docs blah blah retry?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 07:22:25 pm
I've tried to do the same thing (founder and another liberal steal cars, founder dies, then other liberal dies), but it didn't trigger a crash. Do you have a save, or any other information?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Aqizzar on November 29, 2008, 07:25:35 pm
Yes, actually.  Since the game didn't close properly, the save file is still there, on the day of the crash.  Do I e-mail to you?

I can't make it reproduce though, given the circumstances.  I'm sure you have your own method.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 07:37:41 pm
Emailing me works fine. But even with the save, it won't reproduce? I won't be able to make it work, if that's the case. The key for me having the save is that I need to be running the game in the debugger when the crash occurs -- I don't actually have any methods to induce the crash other than the description of what caused it the first time.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: Aqizzar on November 29, 2008, 07:41:11 pm
Well, I can't get it to reproduce because I can't rig the game to kill my founder and keep playing another liberal like what made the crash.  You can probably do that with a debugger, I just can't make the RNG set up the scenario again.

Also, your profile doesn't have an address, just the forum thing which doesn't do attachments.  If you can, just send a mail to my profile address, and I'll reply with the file.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 08:10:52 pm
That's true, I could rig the police to always show up and always hit for massive damage. My method for getting them to show up before was just to have the founder and other person break a window look around for the keys like fools until the police stumbled by, then play "punch the cop". Yes, my Liberals are very smart.  ???

I didn't realize my email address wasn't displayed in my profile. I don't see an option to toggle display of it, just an option to allow people to email me though. In any case, it's not meant to be a secret. ;)

floppysocks@hevanet.com

Is this the 3.17.0 release, or the 240 revision off of SVN? They aren't save compatible, so I need to know which version to revert the code to.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 29, 2008, 08:18:08 pm
RE politics

I still occasionally (seemingly with no rhyme or reason, though it may be aggravated by holding down 'w' to pass time really quickly) freeze up during political things (court decisions, legislation, but AFAIK not elections).  When it does freeze, it does so after the very first vote is cast.  I really have no idea why it happens, though.  The game should probably autosave on the last day of each month (functioning as though the player saved before 'w'aiting).  I keep having to manually save every few months to avoid having to roll back several months.

Also, the Presidential election is not very awe-inspiring as is.  It'd be nice if it were more realistic, with electoral votes and candidates winning individual states and whatnot.  It's not terribly important, but it'd certainly help polish the game.

My method for getting them to show up before was just to have the founder and other person break a window look around for the keys like fools until the police stumbled by, then play "punch the cop".

Heh.  That recently became my preferred method of lame Liberal disposal, actually.  I use it when I'm finished with someone I temporarily recruited to teach everyone else a rare skill (Landlords with Business 7, etc).
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 08:23:59 pm
It should be autosaving daily. Is it not for you?  ???

Edit: Okay, yeah, saving isn't working properly for Mac, so it's probably busted for Linux too. How are you manually saving?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 29, 2008, 08:26:40 pm
I don't see any autosave file, and the save itself doesn't seem to update unless I manually save/quit.

Edit: Okay, yeah, saving isn't working properly for Mac, so it's probably busted for Linux too. How are you manually saving?

Woops.  Forgot to mention I implemented the lcsio.cpp, lcsio.h, and saveload.cpp changes in that patch I found.  Check the spoiler in one of my posts on the last page.  I had a few mysteriously broken saves (8 byte file = fail), but for the most part things are working great for me now.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 08:30:49 pm
Saving and loading is really junked up when I'm testing on Mac -- I now have the game unable to start due to corrupted save file. I'll check out the saveload.cpp diffs you posted earlier and see how that goes.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Aqizzar on November 29, 2008, 08:35:31 pm
Saving and loading is really junked up when I'm testing on Mac -- I now have the game unable to start due to corrupted save file. I'll check out the saveload.cpp diffs you posted earlier and see how that goes.

Um, is that with the one just emailed to you from fugitiveblue?  Because that's me.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 08:39:27 pm
That would make sense, but no, that's with a save created five seconds earlier on the same computer by exiting the game, which is a really bad thing, because it means the game can't load its own save. :(
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 08:54:57 pm
Well, I can't get it to reproduce because I can't rig the game to kill my founder and keep playing another liberal like what made the crash.  You can probably do that with a debugger, I just can't make the RNG set up the scenario again.

Good news: Fixed the crash
Bad news: Now that it's fixed, you game over due to founder death instead :'(
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 29, 2008, 09:07:38 pm
FYI:  You left #define AUTOENLIGHTEN active when you submitted revision 240.  :P
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 29, 2008, 09:14:55 pm
Thanks, totally forgot I had that on. ;)
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Squeegy on November 29, 2008, 09:33:47 pm
Good news: Fixed the crash
Bad news: Now that it's fixed, you game over due to founder death instead :'(

That's not a fix. That's a prevention.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 30, 2008, 12:26:32 am
I'm running into juice weirdisms.  My founder seems to drop to 50 juice whenever he hacks, no matter how high he was before hacking.  I see no relevant errors in the activity code (activities.cpp) or the addjuice function (commonactions.cpp) that would cause this.

Scratch that.  On closer inspection, this is broken if cr.juice already exceeds the cap:
Code: [Select]
   if(cr.juice+juice>cap)juice=cap-cr.juice;
This ought to fix it:
Code: [Select]
if (juice<0 || cap<cr.juice) // to avoid erroneous and excessive juice drops
cap=cr.juice; //
cr.juice=MIN(cap,cr.juice+juice);
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 30, 2008, 12:48:25 am
Good catch. The line should actually just be removed -- it is an attempt at enforcing a hard cap, which is deprecated behavior in favor of the soft cap you see a couple lines above (if you're at or above the cap, divide juice gain by ten).
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: beorn080 on November 30, 2008, 01:18:48 am
Does that mean that hackers will be able to exceed 50 juice just by hacking?
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creation
Post by: BishopX on November 30, 2008, 01:21:01 am
There seems to a bug with the new hostage setup. When you get the line about the convert being so convincing they fool the police, it doesn't give the option of using them as sleepers.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on November 30, 2008, 01:23:35 am
That was always intended, but it was a borderline case. Now that sleepers are much easier to get in general, it should be probably be permitted.
Title: Re: 3.17.0 Release - Minimap Expansion, Resisting Arrest, and Revised Char Creat
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 30, 2008, 02:37:00 am
When you musically convert Club Security at the club (I haven't met an off-duty one anywhere else, so I assume they're only found there), they instantly become Conservative and continue fighting.  This is quite irritating.

Also, similarly converted police (possibly all types, but certainly Police Officers) seem to continue attacking the LCS.  You can't fight back because they're Liberal.  This is also irritating.