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Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: Jisaan on December 03, 2008, 08:25:43 pm

Title: Shovels
Post by: Jisaan on December 03, 2008, 08:25:43 pm
I know they've been suggested before, but it seems like it's always in response to a different suggestion, so I figured I'd give it a topic of its own. Also, I did see Req539, but it doesn't specify whether it means digging without tools, or digging with a tool other than a shovel. I'll come back to this later.

So, basic idea. They could dig through soil layers, but not through rock. They could probably be made of wood, most likely metal, and might be small enough for use by creatures such as kobolds, allowing them to dig their own caves, up to a point.

A few reasons I make the suggestion... First is that it would allow you to build a real fort even if you embarked without a pick, axe, or the ability to make either, while still creating a challenge. The downside is that it means you have to intentionally ignore a feature if you want the current challenge of embarking without tools, but I think that's better than having to arbitrarily forbid your dwarves from digging out stone even though they have picks.

Also, it's rather odd that dwarves currently dig through soil with picks, when they're obviously not well suited for the job. But then, I'm not sure if having shovels would justify removing that capability from picks, since it would be rather irritating to require that miners carry both picks and shovels, or to have two professions needed for digging out a fortress. I suppose that wouldn't be a problem if there's a cliffside nearby, however, which seems fitting enough. Either way would work I suppose.

Shovels might also be useful for tasks other than digging, which actually is mostly why I bring them up. First thing that comes to mind is the suggestion that this entire topic was originally a response to, being the ability to dig up boulders. Other possibilities include filling in holes, which I believe was mentioned recently, and collecting sand or clay. No doubt there are others, but none come immediately to mind, and some of them are probably beyond the foreseeable future.

Now, as promised, back to Req539. Assuming that it did include shovels as a not-very-dwarven digging method that might be allowed, I suppose my only argument is that the other races would probably benefit from it, even if the dwarves don't, allowing modders to use them without sacrificing the current playstyle in the vanilla game. Would also add some diversity to the other races, and I imagine it would be a simply enough matter to make it too large for dwarves... Got to feel sorry for the kobolds though.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: dizzyelk on December 03, 2008, 11:10:57 pm
Could be used for burying treasure in adventurer mode? Farmers might need shovels for planting, or even for that soil moving thread I saw, but am too lazy to search for. The only problems I see with shovels is that they don't seem to add enough to justify their inclusion.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Pilsu on December 04, 2008, 01:19:07 am
The game has several different types of underwear, I don't think things need to be important to be included  :P
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Granite26 on December 04, 2008, 11:22:51 am
Item tag for only item that only digs in dirt?  Would be handy.  (I like framing suggestions in terms of additions to raws)
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: profit on December 04, 2008, 04:14:12 pm
The farming idea seems solid, Perhaps add 25% to the yield or something if a farmer has a shovel or increase planting time 100% if they don't.

* Side note a farmer should be able to carry a bag of seeds with them So they do not have to plant a mushroom.... walk back to the store room.... Plant another mushroom... Ect.. but thats just minor details....
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: BradB on December 05, 2008, 03:33:11 am
Perhaps make picks dig slow through soil (peasant rock mining speed), and shovels dig normal speed through it, but cannot dig through rock. (or very very slowly through rock [1/4 peasant rock mining speed?])
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: zagibu on December 05, 2008, 05:06:02 am
I'd like it if picks didn't work for soil and shovels didn't work for stone at all.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Tormy on December 05, 2008, 09:08:26 am
Quote from: zagibu on December 05, 2008, 05:06:02 am
I'd like it if picks didn't work for soil and shovels didn't work for stone at all.

This..it would be realistic.  :)
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Granite26 on December 05, 2008, 09:24:31 am
Quote from: zagibu on December 05, 2008, 05:06:02 am
I'd like it if there were separate tags for [able to dig in dirt] and [able to dig in stone]

fix'd
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: ogion on December 05, 2008, 10:40:18 am
Quote from: Jisaan on December 03, 2008, 08:25:43 pm

A few reasons I make the suggestion... First is that it would allow you to build a real fort even if you embarked without a pick, axe, or the ability to make either, while still creating a challenge. The downside is that it means you have to intentionally ignore a feature if you want the current challenge of embarking without tools, but I think that's better than having to arbitrarily forbid your dwarves from digging out stone even though they have picks.

Why would you embark with a shovel instead of a pick? Doesn't make sense....

Quote from: Jisaan on December 03, 2008, 08:25:43 pm
Also, it's rather odd that dwarves currently dig through soil with picks, when they're obviously not well suited for the job.

Oh but they are! How many ditches have you dug? I personally have a few miles of ditches behind me...

Quote from: Jisaan on December 03, 2008, 08:25:43 pm
Shovels might also be useful for tasks other than digging, which actually is mostly why I bring them up. First thing that comes to mind is the suggestion that this entire topic was originally a response to, being the ability to dig up boulders.

This I agree on though. It's a valid point. Why sending out engravers in the middle of the forest to smooth a rock for the wagons to pass, rater than having a miner or a woodcutter just dig it out and move it aside? Would also help make arable soilpatches in say ryolite areas etc.


I think you need some real experience with shovles and picks beofre making assumptions as to their area of use.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: DJ on December 05, 2008, 01:13:12 pm
Quote from: Tormy on December 05, 2008, 09:08:26 am
Quote from: zagibu on December 05, 2008, 05:06:02 am
I'd like it if picks didn't work for soil and shovels didn't work for stone at all.

This..it would be realistic.  :)
I dug soil with a pick just a couple of days ago, and it worked great. Much better than a shovel, which is mainly useful for throwing the dug soil out of the ditch. Shovels are nearly useless against clay that hasn't been broken into pieces with a pick.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Pickerel on December 05, 2008, 06:00:17 pm
I can confirm.  Picks work great in soil.  Not the best at hauling soil, but MUCH better at breaking it up then a shovel, and much easier to use, especially in rocky soils where every tiny rock stops a shovel (***curses my garden soil in all it's malice***)
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Idiom on December 05, 2008, 07:37:59 pm
Seconded. Digging channels in soil with a pick ever made any sense.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Jisaan on December 05, 2008, 07:52:07 pm
All right, guess I was mistaken about picks... I've never used anything but shovels myself, so I had to guess a bit there. Even so, it seems to be more or less agreed that they are useful for actually removing the dirt after the pick has broken it up, so if anything it would probably make sense to use both...

Of course, that's a bit too strict as a requirement, so I think the best way to do it would be to have either tool work for soil, but without either of them working as well as both carried by the same miner... Which would naturally require shovels to use mining. Not sure how difficult that would be to implement, but short of the ideal, simply having one tool or the other function about the same in dirt would work fine.

As for embarking with a shovel instead of a pick, it's the same reason some people embark with nothing but peasants, or on an evil glacier... A challenge which is somewhat unrealistic, but at least explainable. Though actually, it's not so much embarking with a shovel as it is embarking without any supplies whatsoever, and building a shovel once you've arrived, using the wood from the wagon. Of course, you can embark without supplies now for an even greater challenge, but it's rather boring.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Granite26 on December 06, 2008, 11:21:45 am
give shovels the dig_dirt tag and picks the dig_dirt and dig_stone tags?
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Spey on December 07, 2008, 12:51:34 am
Quote from: BradB on December 05, 2008, 03:33:11 am
Perhaps make picks dig slow through soil (peasant rock mining speed), and shovels dig normal speed through it, but cannot dig through rock. (or very very slowly through rock [1/4 peasant rock mining speed?])

a pick might not be the most ideal tool to move earth, but I think you underestimate how long it would take to manually excavate the same amount of rock with a pick.

I await the ushering in of dwarven alchemy to speed up rock mining.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: zagibu on December 07, 2008, 03:02:02 pm
I don't agree that picks work great for soil. They work great to loosen up the soil, but you still have to use a shovel to remove it. I think it would make sense on the abstraction level of a game, if picks, which can be used to mine granite, wouldn't work for soil at all. Picks for stone, shovels for soil. Not everything has to be completely realistic
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Wang Commander on December 07, 2008, 10:35:55 pm
Picks are for digging soil, shovels are for throwing it away.  You can go just as fast with a big hoe and a bucket or your arms and a basket as you can with a shovel and a bucket, if you're somewhere (like underground) where you can't just throw the dirt out over the side!
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: zagibu on December 08, 2008, 01:15:55 pm
I'd like to see how you dig granite with your hoe. There are different kinds of picks, and granite picks are bad for soil.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: DJ on December 08, 2008, 01:33:01 pm
It all depends on the soil, really. You can easily dig through clay with just a pick because it stays in big chunks which you can throw out with your hands. Digging through sand without a shovel is a whole different ballgame.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: zagibu on December 08, 2008, 03:34:33 pm
So, you are proposing special tags for each type of rock/soil that determine how fast it can be mined with either tool? Why not...
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Silverionmox on December 09, 2008, 09:08:36 am
Picks are used to break up hard soil materials in order to make it shovelable. Since most soils are soft and can easily be cut with a shovel, there's no need for a pick. Clearing away mining debris should require one, though. Which brings us back to the realistic mining discussion, which was put into the freezer until hauling was fixed.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: BradB on December 11, 2008, 09:14:54 pm
Hoes also work as great digging tools. After digging a hole with a shovel or spade, and then one with a hoe. You will pick the hoe every time afterward. They are much easier and less tiresome to use, dirt doesn't slide back down the hole, rocks can easily be levered out, hard clay can easily be penetrated with a good swing and then levered out.
The only problem is you cannot directly get soil into a wheelbarrow with one. But other than that, they kick ass.
I can't imagine they'd be very good for tunneling though, thed probably be best suited for channeling.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Guy Montag on December 17, 2008, 01:10:37 am
well, the soil types in the game also include types of clay, dense loam and other hard, dense materials like frozen dirt.

I don't know if you have ever handled and shovel in your life or not, but you really cannot dig through clay or frozen dirt with just a shovel. you'd need a pick to break it up.

The game can be abstracted enough to assume there is something that can be used for a shovel if the player imagines that the dwarf could maybe use one.

There are plenty of tools in the workshops that are never seen in game but are presumed to be there. tracking thousands of different tools needed for every sector of the economy would be a massive headache and would accomplish nothing.

remember guys... this is supposed to be a FUN game.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Skynet 2.0 on December 17, 2008, 02:43:36 am
I don't want my miners to all have to carry around shovels just in case they come upon some dirt. Also:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Belteshazzar on December 17, 2008, 02:34:19 pm
Better yet use an entrenching tool. It's a pick/shovel/mattock/spike all in one. I have one in my car, just in case of zombies or muggers... or something.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Deon on December 17, 2008, 02:57:53 pm
I'd still like to have a separate "digger" type items for soil and rock. You can have both on your pick but it would be great for modding to prevent some minor races like kobolds from high-scale mining but to allow them to dig in dirt still.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Skynet 2.0 on December 17, 2008, 08:37:18 pm
It would work if it was just for kobolds/humans to have some minor digging abilities, but I don't want to have my dwarves carry around 2 tools, or have a whole new profession for digging in soil. This way, you could give the humans the ability to add basements and such to their houses, and just assume the dwarves are smart enough to flatten one end of their pickaxes.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: G-Flex on December 18, 2008, 03:31:40 am
Why wouldn't humans be able to dig through rock? Did they suddenly turn into idiots or something?
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Silverionmox on December 18, 2008, 05:24:09 am
They might, but at the level of a novice dwarven miner at best, making it hard enough to avoid it if possible. We don't want all races to act the same, do we? Let the humans have their strenghts as cavalry and sailors.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: IndonesiaWarMinister on December 18, 2008, 06:31:27 am
Quote from: Silverionmox on December 18, 2008, 05:24:09 am
They might, but at the level of a novice dwarven miner at best, making it hard enough to avoid it if possible. We don't want all races to act the same, do we? Let the humans have their strenghts as cavalry and sailors.

I agree!
Humans may be able to outspeed Elves when they have horse [Arabic] horse. Now those are fast!
And out-tough Dwarves using Knight-in-Metal variation.

Using rafts to trade using rivers, hmm...
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: SirHoneyBadger on December 18, 2008, 07:18:33 am
I'll second the mattock. I have one that I use extensively in my garden, and it's probably the handiest thing you can use for actually breaking soil, and digging small ditches. Puts shovels entirely to shame, except for actually scooping out the dirt. It's nearly as good as a hoe, infact, and better for some tasks a hoe can perform well. Indeed, another name for them is the "grub-hoe". A strong back is recommended, though, as the mattock is a *bit* more labour-intensive, and slightly more dangerous, than a shovel.

I wouldn't mind if the pick were the all-purpose tool of choice, but adding spades for soil, and then sledge-hammers plus long metal spikes/chisels for very hard rock. Picks could then retain their popularity and necessity, but you could give a certain number of your miner dwarfs spades and increase their soil-digging speed (or, minus a pick, just give them the ability to dig soil), and then issue sledges and spikes for tunneling through hard stone.

In both cases, a pick would still be a handy thing to have, but you could perform each activity, more slowly, with *just* a spade/shovel, or *just* a sledge and a spike.

That would give you the option of faster productivity (or cheaper, in the case of just issuing spades, sans picks.), at the price of a greater expense of resources.



Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Guy Montag on December 18, 2008, 08:01:20 am
Well humans would have to have some sort of way to mine out ore. Its not like they didn't know how to mine through rock historically.

Just make some racial modifers to change their style of play. Giving them unhappy thoughts for not seeing the sun or prolonged periods and potential reverse-sun sickness. IRL people don't like living in caves or hanging out in the pitch black, which Dwarves are implied to enjoy. Could attach it to a personality trait. A human with the tag "terrified of the dark" would be pretty miserable living in a dwarf-style fortress.

Give humans some bonus to constructing outdoor structures or to masonry carpentry.


Or make them dig slower. Halve their default dig speed or something. Could do something like that for Kolbolds. If the material quality of picks was a factor in dig speed then Kolbolds with their copper-only technology and Humies with their Iron technology could put they at a disadvantage to dwarves, sorta.

I'm really trying to figure out what possible fun playing as the elves could ever me... They don't seem to mine or build ANYTHING, and the one sole material they seem to like using is a cultural taboo to harvest. These guys would be extincted pretty quickly unless they have something decent to compensate with.

I hate to draw game-mechanic differences between races like some sorta crappy RTS, but the way it stands now all the races are pretty much alike and you can use them in any style you like all to roughly equal results.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Erom on December 18, 2008, 09:09:23 am
Once the cave-in code is improved, that would make more sense to be a limit on human mining.

Dwarves can mine out 6x6 areas without them collapsing.
Other mining races (Humans, Goblins, ect.) can mine out 4x4 areas without them collapsing.
Primitive or non-mining races (Kobolds, Elves, ect.) can mine out 3x3 areas without them collapsing.

Or something. You get the gist. Maybe most races need to build wooden supports throughout their tunnels like in real life, and dwarves don't have too because they're _so awesome_.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Silverionmox on December 18, 2008, 09:15:03 am
Dwarves are smaller, that helps. The problem: then we'll have to distinguish dwarvish and non-dwarvish tunnels, which might prove overly complicated when there are several races digging on the same map.
A combination of small physical advantages (cave adaptation) and large cultural preferences will probably suffice to push everyone in the right direction, and it doesn't exclude the possibility to get a human civ that lives like dwarves from time to time.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: nordo on December 18, 2008, 10:36:38 pm
In addition to shovels, how about a special tiny pick that is only for digging gems.  Also, war picks.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: dwarfed one on August 15, 2010, 01:24:58 am
We still want shovels! To dig soils, furrow the ground, clean the mud and goo, collect sand faster, move the stone dumps (if realistic mining would be introduced), and beat enemies with it!
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: ungulateman on August 15, 2010, 01:35:46 am
Dude, 18-month old thread. Don't necro it please.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 15, 2010, 01:43:15 am
Quote from: ungulateman on August 15, 2010, 01:35:46 am
Dude, 18-month old thread. Don't necro it please.
If he had started a new thread about it, someone would have yelled at him to use the existing old one.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: ungulateman on August 15, 2010, 04:36:47 am
It's a trap, yes. Posting a new thread would still be a better idea.

As a rule of thumb, don't necro threads more than 6 months old, unless it's something classic like Cacame's thread.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: NRN_R_Sumo1 on August 15, 2010, 05:28:57 am
It seems sort of pointless to me to start a new thread rather than necro unless you wanted a clean slate to build on.
by necroing old ideas and thoughts come back to the surface.

I agree with 90% of this thread, except for the tiny pick to dig gems with, that would just be a waste of time.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: NW_Kohaku on August 15, 2010, 09:48:47 am
We want to encourage the necroing of old threads in the Suggestion Forum - why would the thoughts of someone from six months before no longer matter, excepting if Toady specifically addressed the problem they were suggeting a solution to? 

If nothing else, we want to discourage flooding the forum with new suggestions that nobody wants to bother reading or putting thought into that occurs when we encourage people to throw down their every stream-of-consciousness thought on the game down willy-nilly.

Regardless, a shovel as a low-grade alternative for a pick seems a little silly.  For 1 metal, you can just make the pick in the first place, anyway.

If we do something where we actually need to move large amounts of soil, however, like when we get wheelbarrows, maybe the shovel could be a part of that.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: zagibu on August 15, 2010, 11:56:35 am
Quote from: NRN_R_Sumo1 on August 15, 2010, 05:28:57 am
I agree with 90% of this thread, except for the tiny pick to dig gems with, that would just be a waste of time.

Maybe not if you shifted the job from miner to gem cutter. Let's face it, miners rock the rock, they can't extract gems without destroying half of them.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: Pilsu on August 15, 2010, 01:05:43 pm
Extracting stuff from the ground is kind of the entire point of mining.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 15, 2010, 05:34:09 pm
Doesn't modern gem mining involve dumping hundreds of tons of rock through crushers and then sifting out the gems?

Anyway, as far as the 'how large can an area be without collapsing' idea, I think it should be the same for all races for a bare stone chamber. 6x6 max, any larger will collapse without support. You can leave natural stone pillars, build supports, etc.

There should also be an option to reinforce or brace an area with metal or wood, like the wooden bracing you see in real mining tunnels.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: FallingWhale on August 15, 2010, 08:53:38 pm
The only use for shovels I can think of is sapping, non dwarfs shouldn't be able to know how to make magic picks, magic shovels are okay; it keeps a stone deep forts safe.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: TheyTarget on August 15, 2010, 10:39:21 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on August 15, 2010, 05:34:09 pm
Doesn't modern gem mining involve dumping hundreds of tons of rock through crushers and then sifting out the gems?

Anyway, as far as the 'how large can an area be without collapsing' idea, I think it should be the same for all races for a bare stone chamber. 6x6 max, any larger will collapse without support. You can leave natural stone pillars, build supports, etc.

There should also be an option to reinforce or brace an area with metal or wood, like the wooden bracing you see in real mining tunnels.

Yes thats how gems are extracted in modern day. Its why gems are always small, and you only get massive gems that are really really old and extracted by hand long ago. Theres a size limit, and its something like a marble.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 16, 2010, 11:25:55 am
Quote from: TheyTarget on August 15, 2010, 10:39:21 pm
Yes thats how gems are extracted in modern day. Its why gems are always small, and you only get massive gems that are really really old and extracted by hand long ago. Theres a size limit, and its something like a marble.
Interesting. I had no idea, so was taking a wild guess.

Or maybe I saw some discovery channel show on it years ago and it was floating around in my subconscious.

Anyway... now I want to make a custom workshop that destroys stone and gets gems. I bet someone already has.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: TheyTarget on August 16, 2010, 04:09:32 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on August 16, 2010, 11:25:55 am
Quote from: TheyTarget on August 15, 2010, 10:39:21 pm
Yes thats how gems are extracted in modern day. Its why gems are always small, and you only get massive gems that are really really old and extracted by hand long ago. Theres a size limit, and its something like a marble.
Interesting. I had no idea, so was taking a wild guess.

Or maybe I saw some discovery channel show on it years ago and it was floating around in my subconscious.

Anyway... now I want to make a custom workshop that destroys stone and gets gems. I bet someone already has.

Discovery did do a few shows on it over a few years ago. It was probably there.
Title: Re: Shovels
Post by: SirHoneyBadger on September 01, 2010, 06:45:22 am
There still are many small-scale miners who go out and dig up gems by hand. That's where you'd get the beautiful crystal formations you see in rock&gem specialty stores.

I've got a section of a geode with amethyst crystals on it, some of which are the size of a nectarine. There was also recently an emerald cluster discovered, roughly the size of a lounge-chair.

And yes, please do Necro threads as much as possible. It cuts down on clutter, saves everyone's time, and keeps ideas from getting lost.

By the way, if anyone's looking to purchase a garden tool (it's a little late this year, but garden and flower beds should still be turned over before winter), I *highly recommend* you invest in one of those yellow plastic shatterproof handles. I've never regretted owning any tool with one of them, whether it was a shovel, or my mattock.

If we ever get breakable tools, the guy who sells handles is gonna be one rich bastard.