Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: Spey on December 07, 2008, 01:24:46 am
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OK heres an idea
Miners currently need a tool to do their job, as do woodcutters. Soldiers use weapons, shields, or armour to do theirs. But everyone else just seems to make do with their bare hands.
I think each job should really require some form of tool or implement, or perhaps some kind of protective wear.
- Butchers and fishery workers might need a knife or some kind of Cleaver and perhaps have preference to wear some kind of cloth apron.
- Carpenters might use a variety of saws, axes, planes etc and wear a leather apron or somesuch. but maybe woodcutters would use a different type of axe more suited to felling a tree.
- Furnace operators might require a suit of protective leather such as gloves a smock and a mask to ward off being singed. Blacksmiths might also wear something similar (or a leather apron at least) and use a hammer and tongs.
The list really could go on and on as most jobs need some kind of implement. As for whether the equipment should be carried by the worker (as with miners and woodcutters) or required as part of the construction of a workshop (as with an alchemist's laboratory) would probably depend on the type of job. Different quality levels of tool could also affect the quality level or speed of the work.
This would also tie in with adventurers starting to use skills, you would need to carry a fishing rod to fish or some kind of knife to use for skinning and butchering an animal you have killed.
Clothing also might wear more quickly doing lots of labour tasks, so wearing leather items (which should be more hard wearing) means you wear your clothing out less rapidly.
What are your thoughts?
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I know it's been said a million times before, but it's generally assumed that the tools come with the workshop. Fishing, however, and some other outdoor skills (Herbalism with bags/backpacks, perhaps?) would be entirely appropriate for tool use, however.
As for having the tools be a requirement to build the workshop, it's an interesting possibility, but it hampers your ability to build severely - your fort might starve because you don't have metal for a knife for the butcher's shop. Some things are better kept abstracted.
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Ooorr . . . just embark with one!
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As for having the tools be a requirement to build the workshop, it's an interesting possibility, but it hampers your ability to build severely - your fort might starve because you don't have metal for a knife for the butcher's shop. Some things are better kept abstracted.
That's the point of building an outpost - to bring civilization to the wilderness. Tools always were very important for settlers. Of course there should be possible workarounds, like using stone knives or bone fishing hooks. A good preparation is part of the game.
A few items should be essential for a workshop, while others could enhance the speed or quality of the work. That way it's possible to gradually upgrade the quality of the workshops.
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I think ya'll are underestimating the effect this will have on the aproachability of the game.
That said, what's wrong with a generic 'tools' that is assumed to contain everything a dwarf needs (knife and hammer and nails, etc).
Dwarfs being dwarfs, it'd be a special thing made by the parents when their little one was brewing. (Cause you KNOW the dwarf phrase is 'got one in the still'.) It would be presented to the dwarf when he reached the age of 12 (which is would open up a whole new set of labours for them at that age).
eh?
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I think it's part of the charm of the game that you need blocks, mechanisms, a bucket and a rope or chain to build a well.. instead of building it from generic "raw materials". I don't think it makes the game more difficult unless there would be a dozen of arcane and obscure tools required to even start a carpenter's workshop. Instead just require a saw, and your carpenter can get started. He'll state that he could use a workbench (aka table), hammer, file, etc. later on in a "needs of the fortress" report.
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Currently the tools that are key to starting a for are Pick, Ax and Anvil. If you fail to bring these with you your in trouble, fortunately the default embark profile will give them to you.
If more tools are added and they are equally necessary I would recommended that the embark screen be upgraded with a 'recommended stuff' check list. Anyone who remembers Oregon Trail will remember the useful recommendations provided at its equivalent embark screen. A checklist is passive so it dose not limit or encumber experienced players and it is a boon to the noob. A simple list of items that can be scrolled through and an accompanying written description and recomendataion, for example a brief recommendation for picks would look like..
"Picks are used by Miners to excavate rock and soil along with valuable metal ores and gems, Picks can only be made of metal and thus a pick is necessary to obtain the metal ore to make more picks. A pick will be used as a weapon if a miner is in combat but it is weaker then a real weapon. It can be hard for a new settlement to create its own picks thus it is recomended that two picks be brought incase one is lost or destroyed"
The recommendation list would have a few more general categories like 'Seeds' and 'Drink' if the item/s is lacking its name appears red in the list, if partial yellow and if sufficient to meet the recommendation its green, perhaps even another color for excess.
A simple 'hard' recommendation set (one which always recommends the same equipment for all situations) would be enough to prevent noobs from wandering into the wilderness totally unprepared and without important tools. But a system that actually considered the embark area (stone types, vegetation, climate, hostile neighbors) and could alter its recommendations based on that data would be even more useful and would be useful to intermediate level players who are exploring a wider variety of starting locations.
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Just limit it to large tools that could be used as weapons. Butchers get cleavers, farmers get pitchforks, miners get their picks, etc.
How about make it so that the tools aren't actually required for a job, they just speed it up by a couple factors? A dwarf can dig and plant stuff with a flat chunk of wood or their bare hands, it just goes way slower than with a shovel.
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Just limit it to large tools that could be used as weapons.
You know, this is so simple and elegant and perfect for this problem. I really think this would set the bar for 'should this be added in, or abstracted.'
Individual nails: Abstracted
A railroad spike: Put that sucker in. Into someone's eye.
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How about make it so that the tools aren't actually required for a job, they just speed it up by a couple factors? A dwarf can dig and plant stuff with a flat chunk of wood or their bare hands, it just goes way slower than with a shovel.
Hmm. Digging through bedrock, no. Carpentry, no. But fish cleaning or butchering? Maybe. It's worth considering.
If more tools are added and they are equally necessary I would recommended that the embark screen be upgraded with a 'recommended stuff' check list. Anyone who remembers Oregon Trail will remember the useful recommendations provided at its equivalent embark screen. A checklist is passive so it dose not limit or encumber experienced players and it is a boon to the noob. A simple list of items that can be scrolled through and an accompanying written description and recomendataion, for example a brief recommendation for picks would look like..
The list could also be handled on a profession-specific basis, so it could look at what skills your dwarves have and tell you what tools are needed to make use of those skills. Or perhaps some of these could be treated as "free" items, like how Ambushers get a free crossbow.
Anyway, here's an updated list of possible tools. I think they all pass Skid's sensible "usable as a weapon" standard.
- Utility knives (for leatherworking, fish cleaning, butchering, exceptionally minced plump helmet, etc.)
- Chisels (for all stoneworkers)
- Hammers (for smiths and stoneworkers)
- Saws (for carpenters, woodcrafters, and bone carvers)
- Shovels (for farmers)
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Ooorr . . . just embark with one!
So if I forget to embark with one the advice I'm given is "don't be a moron"?
Small tools are best left abstracted.
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Anyway, here's an updated list of possible tools. I think they all pass Skid's sensible "usable as a weapon" standard.
- Utility knives (for leatherworking, fish cleaning, butchering, exceptionally minced plump helmet, etc.)
- Chisels (for all stoneworkers)
- Hammers (for smiths and stoneworkers)
- Saws (for carpenters, woodcrafters, and bone carvers)
- Shovels (for farmers)
Saws don't usually make very good weapons.
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Saws don't usually make very good weapons.
The point is that it's big enough to use as a weapon (and therefore worth tracking as a discrete item), not that it's a good weapon. You can use pants as a weapon if you want, too.
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I REALLY think we should abstract out utility knives, unless we get the ability to make them 3 for an ore and all dwarves carry them regardless of jobs.
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I REALLY think we should abstract out utility knives, unless we get the ability to make them 3 for an ore and all dwarves carry them regardless of jobs.
Which makes sense.
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The point is that it's big enough to use as a weapon (and therefore worth tracking as a discrete item), not that it's a good weapon. You can use pants as a weapon if you want, too.
Oh. Right :-[
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All the Kobolds that enter my fort have daggers which would be the equivalent of a knife, just assign the various fish-cleaning, butchering and crafting abilities to that weapon. Same goes with Hammer its already in the game. All that really needs to be added are chisels, saws and shovels, hardly a bewildering amount of complexity.
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Ooorr . . . just embark with one!
So if I forget to embark with one the advice I'm given is "don't be a moron"?
Yes. This is why the default embark setup includes picks and axes. It should include a full complement of tools, whatever that ends up being. (Possibly fisherdwarves should bring their own spears, the way hunters bring crossbows. Or maybe they should all bring appropriate tools? I remember Jagged Alliance giving you the option, when you hired someone, to pay a little extra for them to bring their own gear.)
How about make it so that the tools aren't actually required for a job, they just speed it up by a couple factors? A dwarf can dig and plant stuff with a flat chunk of wood or their bare hands, it just goes way slower than with a shovel.
I really dislike this. The tool restriction adds some badly-needed structure. It shouldn't be possible to get around it by just waiting longer for everything.
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... unless we get the ability to make them 3 for an ore and all dwarves carry them regardless of jobs.
That sounds like a great way of handling it. 3 per bar for chisels too.
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How about make it so that the tools aren't actually required for a job, they just speed it up by a couple factors? A dwarf can dig and plant stuff with a flat chunk of wood or their bare hands, it just goes way slower than with a shovel.
Hmm. Digging through bedrock, no. Carpentry, no. But fish cleaning or butchering? Maybe. It's worth considering.
If more tools are added and they are equally necessary I would recommended that the embark screen be upgraded with a 'recommended stuff' check list. Anyone who remembers Oregon Trail will remember the useful recommendations provided at its equivalent embark screen. A checklist is passive so it dose not limit or encumber experienced players and it is a boon to the noob. A simple list of items that can be scrolled through and an accompanying written description and recomendataion, for example a brief recommendation for picks would look like..
The list could also be handled on a profession-specific basis, so it could look at what skills your dwarves have and tell you what tools are needed to make use of those skills. Or perhaps some of these could be treated as "free" items, like how Ambushers get a free crossbow.
Anyway, here's an updated list of possible tools. I think they all pass Skid's sensible "usable as a weapon" standard.
- Utility knives (for leatherworking, fish cleaning, butchering, exceptionally minced plump helmet, etc.)
- Chisels (for all stoneworkers)
- Hammers (for smiths and stoneworkers)
- Saws (for carpenters, woodcrafters, and bone carvers)
- Shovels (for farmers)
I'm also against utility knives; it'd be something you leave at the workshop. Ditto for forging hammers and saws.
Hammer-chisel sets for stoneworkers (read: engravers) is a great example, however, as it's a "portable" profession most of the time. Likewise, hammers alone could be required for constructing non-block walls (giving blocks an added benefit), and a generalized farming tool (A hoe or rake?) would make sense for farmers to have on their person.
...and now we need rake weapon traps. +1 to nose-breaking.
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I'm also against utility knives; it'd be something you leave at the workshop. Ditto for forging hammers and saws.
In that case, they should be workshop components, like the anvil.
(IIRC the idea with utility knives was that they're required for so many different jobs that every dwarf should carry one all the time. Unfortunately this doesn't address what happens if you don't have enough knives--do some dwarves randomly lose the ability to do half of the jobs? Do new knives appear out of nowhere?)
Hammer-chisel sets for stoneworkers (read: engravers) is a great example, however, as it's a "portable" profession most of the time. Likewise, hammers alone could be required for constructing non-block walls (giving blocks an added benefit), and a generalized farming tool (A hoe or rake?) would make sense for farmers to have on their person.
I'm in favor of all walls having to be made of blocks. And the generalized farming tool should be a shovel, which could also be used to dig through soil (not sure about this, it might make it hard to equip miners).
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I'm in favor of all walls having to be made of blocks. And the generalized farming tool should be a shovel, which could also be used to dig through soil (not sure about this, it might make it hard to equip miners).
(http://www.lawnproducts.com/stoneusa/wallstone/select%20wall%20stone%201.jpg)
Blocks
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/25/44651308_808ff6813d_t.jpg)
I think utility knives should be like socks. Everyone shoes up at the fort with them, they'll carry them if they don't have one, and replace the old worn out ones by leaving them in the hallway.
Not blocks
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In that case, they should be workshop components, like the anvil.
OK, if you need a forging hammer to make an anvil-based workshop, and only an anvil-based workshop requires a forging hammer...then why not just leave it abstract? Just say that "where it says 'anvil' it means 'anvil and other related objects like a forging hammer'".
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In that case, they should be workshop components, like the anvil.
OK, if you need a forging hammer to make an anvil-based workshop, and only an anvil-based workshop requires a forging hammer...then why not just leave it abstract? Just say that "where it says 'anvil' it means 'anvil and other related objects like a forging hammer'".
It wouldn't just be the forge that requires a hammer though. You would use the same hammer with a chisel for engraving.
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Indeed, I see no reason that tools can't be both 'owned and carried' like the pick and ax and also serve as components in a workshop. A masons workshop and an Engraver are really using the same tools (chisel and hammer) but one is in a workshop and the other is roaming the halls.
The only downside is that it can be tricky to actually get tools out of the hands of roaming dwarfs that have them, you have to find and de-task the desired dwarf to make them drop the tool which can be cumbersome. It might also raise issue if dwarf are ever allowed to 'own' their tools outright.
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That raises another point: if more jobs require their own tools, that adds to the list of mutually exclusive jobs. If masons require hammers, a miner/mason will be about as useful as a miner/woodcutter is now. And so on.
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That raises another point: if more jobs require their own tools, that adds to the list of mutually exclusive jobs. If masons require hammers, a miner/mason will be about as useful as a miner/woodcutter is now. And so on.
Personal opinion: never get a miner/mason, because your mason is needed to process all the rock you're mining.
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Ooorr . . . just embark with one!
So if I forget to embark with one the advice I'm given is "don't be a moron"?
Yeah. Same as if you don't embark with tools you need now (yeah, you can get by without a pick and/or axe, or without an anvil, but good luck getting by with _none_ of those, or with no metal bars to make what you didn't bring, or no stone to make a furnace if you didn't bring enough fuel.)
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I think the point is that the more complicated the production trees, the harder it will be for new(ish) players to determine a feasible starting loadout. Right now, all you need is 2 things and your fort can survive indefinitely from what's on site, and make every possible item (I'm thinking pick and anvil here, with the three wood from the wagon).
As it stands, if you don't bring an anvil, the only way to get one is trading. What happens when there's 3-4 things like that, or certain sets.
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I'm not sure it's desirable to only need two items to make a giant fortress. It's definitely a pain to need to bring or trade for an anvil, but that's pretty much the only thing that makes deciding how to embark difficult. Personally, I'd like early forts to be more dependent on the caravans, not less.
I think the solution for new players is to make the Play Now! more viable; as it is, it's far from what an experienced player would embark with. Also, when you embark it initializes your list you with a bunch of stuff like food, picks, and an anvil. Presumably any new tools would go in there and you'd have to intentionally remove them from the list in order to embark without them.
Maybe there could be a "Toolset" embark item that turns into some hammers and chisels, etc. when you get to the site? Or maybe it should be automatically included, like the wagon and pack animals? Maybe dwarves that embark with a sufficient level in a given skill would come with the necessary tools?
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Maybe dwarves that embark with a sufficient level in a given skill would come with the necessary tools?
IIRC, ambushers of standard level or higher come with a crossbow and leather armor. I could definitely see this being expanded upon, engravers with chisels, fisherdwarves with poles, etc.
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Maybe dwarves that embark with a sufficient level in a given skill would come with the necessary tools?
I like this approach, but the game needs to let you know those tools are already being brought. When I first started playing, I wasted a bunch of money buying a crossbow for my hunter, because I didn't know he was bringing his own.
Of course, it's way too easy to get free stuff that way. So maybe the game should display a "Recommended items" list on the items page based on the professions you've selected, plus a "Buy recommended" key.
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In my mind, DF has never really been about abstraction that much, we dont have generic "food", there are countless types of rock that dont really do anything, and dwarves are dressed down to the individual sock (with its own individual level of wear).
Ideally what I'd like to have in DF is much more complexity with regards to equipment. most of what DF is, is dwarves doing jobs, but the mechanics of these jobs are quite generic right now, bring raw materials to workshop, ?, job magically complete.
Certain jobs are done in the field, and only some of these currently have tools.
- Mining - Pick
- Woodcutting - Axe
- Engraving - nothing
- Mason (building things) - nothing
- Hunting - any weapon
- Architect - nothing
- Fisherdwarf - nothing
- Planter - nothing
- Herbalist - nothing
- Mechanic (assembling traps in the field) - nothing
These professions could easily use the same mechanic that makes a miner grab and use a pick, only they are grabbing a hammer and chisel, or a scythe, or a wrench instead.
The rest of the professions do all of their work at some kind of workshop (though some of these could probably be done in the field as an adventurer, like skinning or fish cleaning). However, the workshops they use for the most part seem to be just a stack of blocks or some loose rock. Dwarves hardly ever use any kind of item that directly relates to the job they are doing (exeptions seem to be anvils and glass vials).
I dont see the logic as to why we need things like cups or antivenom or toys or soap or instruments or any of the countless items that currently do nothing in the game whatsoever, when at the same time people dont want to see items like hammers, chisels, knives or any of the items that would be used, both as an adventurer (carrying a knife in order to survive via skinning, butchering or cleaning fish etc) and in fortress mode (tools carried by workers in the case of field jobs or used in construction of workshops).
Sure you would have to plan your embark items a little more carefully, but who isnt doing this already? also once you have embarked, why not give that lowly metal crafter or blacksmith something to do once in a while and have him be a toolmaker, or maybe if you dont have any metal, you should be able to craft an axe or other primitive tools out of rock (as per history).
As a closing statement I'd like to draw peoples attention to the way tools are handled in The Unreal World (http://www.jmp.fi/~smaarane/urw.html) and I think if DF adventure mode worked anything like this (if its Toadys intention to have skills working in adventure mode), then it would only enhance the game.
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Dwarves could own the (hand) tools of their trade and keep them in their own rooms, taking them to work as needed. It seems dwarvish for them to take their work personally. On the other hand, that would potentially require a lot of trips for dwarves with multiple jobs enabled. That would then encourage players to think about job combinations though, and suddenly it makes sense to have masons and engravers in the same group.
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Dwarves could own the (hand) tools of their trade and keep them in their own rooms, taking them to work as needed. It seems dwarvish for them to take their work personally. On the other hand, that would potentially require a lot of trips for dwarves with multiple jobs enabled. That would then encourage players to think about job combinations though, and suddenly it makes sense to have masons and engravers in the same group.
Add a "toolbelt" to the leather making jobs, that could hold a few hand tools. That way your mechanic/carpenter/mason (very useful for water wheels and such) could have his hammer and wrench or whatever.
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Add a "toolbelt" to the leather making jobs, that could hold a few hand tools. That way your mechanic/carpenter/mason (very useful for water wheels and such) could have his hammer and wrench or whatever.
I think this is the only way I could support this suggestion.
I don't want mutually exclusive jobs where ever possible.
If farming needs a scyth and it takes up a hand my woodcutter/farmers won't exist anymore, etc.
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Mutually exclusive jobs would be annoying... perhaps dwarves could throw all the tools for their enabled tool-using labors in a backpack? Carrying an axe or pick in a backpack is a little implausible, though.
Frankly, dwarves shouldn't be carrying an axe and scythe at the same time. Mutually exclusive jobs are fine as long as they don't result in incessant "drop this tool, pick up that one."
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Not to mention that not all crops are good for a scythe. About the only way I can see Wild Strawberries being harvested with a scythe is if the farmer builds a super-complicated mechanical scythe that runs on lava and the screams of impaled kittens. :P
Back in the general direction of the topic, it's not that abstraction is a good thing or that non-abstraction is a bad thing. It's not that having more jobs need tools is a bad thing. It's just that DF is also supposed to be a game. As such, by definition there comes a point where the details start to get in the way of playing. Hell, most of the really cool and fun stuff you can do in the game, like megaprojects and drowning chambers, stop being possible if the simulation goes too far.
In my mind, DF has never really been about abstraction that much, we dont have generic "food", there are countless types of rock that dont really do anything, and dwarves are dressed down to the individual sock (with its own individual level of wear).
In large part, we really do more or less have generic food. Of the 21 crops:
7 grow year round and can be eaten raw, brewed, or cooked
3 grow year round and can only be milled into dye
2 grow year round and can be brewed or milled into cooking ingredients
On top of that,
2 can be brewed and turned into thread
A third crop can be brewed or milled into cooking ingredients, and another can be brewed and milled or processed into cooking ingredients
So really, we're basically down to just 9 truly different crops.
Having countless types of rock that don't do anything goes against your point. We don't have to worry about which one makes the most stable walls or which one will erode more quickly: rock is rock is rock.
Cups, toys, and instruments are like crops: they do pretty much the same thing, no matter what they're called.
Dwarves are dressed down to the individual sock, but how much difference does it really make what kind of sock they're wearing?
These are all things that might as well still be abstracted because we don't have to worry about the nitty-gritty details. If you want to plant something that can be milled or brewed, you just pick one of the three (or four, if you count sweet pods). You don't have to worry about whether Longland Beer is more nutritious than Whip Wine, or whether Dwarven Flour will go bad sooner than Longland Flour, you just plant one.
Ideally what I'd like to have in DF is much more complexity with regards to equipment. most of what DF is, is dwarves doing jobs, but the mechanics of these jobs are quite generic right now, bring raw materials to workshop, ?, job magically complete.
It may not sound like it, but I'm all for more complexity. That's half the point of the game. Much of the potential complexity isn't even implemented in stuff that already exists (such as the crops I mentioned), and I would like to see such things as there being a real difference between Wild Strawberries and Rat Weed.
I'm just worried about the other half of the game's point: the fact that it's a game. By definition, the fact that it's a game means that at some point, nitty-gritty details will get in the way of gameplay.
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...not all crops are good for a scythe...
Ah I think when I wrote scythe I was really thinking more of a sickle.
...Back in the general direction of the topic, it's not that abstraction is a good thing or that non-abstraction is a bad thing. It's not that having more jobs need tools is a bad thing. It's just that DF is also supposed to be a game. As such, by definition there comes a point where the details start to get in the way of playing. Hell, most of the really cool and fun stuff you can do in the game, like megaprojects and drowning chambers, stop being possible if the simulation goes too far...
Well yes this is true, but I'm not looking to bury the gameplay in minutae, I just think a little more complexity in this part of the game couldnt hurt. Nobody finds woodcutters or miners overly complex, same deal with building a forge or an alchemists laboratory. having all jobs on that level would just be more immersive imo.
Something like how the original 'Settlers' worked is what I was kind of aiming for. In that game, you had a few different tools, hammers, pliers, saws, shovels, picks etc. and each type of profession was typically a combination of settler and tool(s). You also had a toolmaker and a toolmakers workshop where you would combine iron and wood to make the various tools.
...In large part, we really do more or less have generic food...
Well I can kinda see what you are saying, but I think its toadys intention to expand on this part of the game, and also with things like certain crops not growing in different seasons or biomes, and different dwarves having a preference for different plants or plant derived consumables, there is a bit of variety here still.
...Having countless types of rock that don't do anything goes against your point. We don't have to worry about which one makes the most stable walls or which one will erode more quickly: rock is rock is rock...
Fair point here too, perhaps my example would work better with metal ores, the game could technically function with one generic "metal", but I think its much more interesting to have the current setup of ores being smelted into various metals with varying uses and values
...Dwarves are dressed down to the individual sock, but how much difference does it really make what kind of sock they're wearing?...
Well I was thinking more on the lines of, do we really need to know that urist mc example is wearing a left sock but not a right, and his Xxkitten leather capxX will need replacing soon? This is the sort of thing that could be completely abstracted away as "dwarves wear clothes, dont worry about it". However while the system isnt perfect right now (curse those armok damned dwarves for littering my fortress with XXclothingXX) I think the game is richer for having this level of detail.
...These are all things that might as well still be abstracted because we don't have to worry about the nitty-gritty details...
...I'm just worried about the other half of the game's point: the fact that it's a game. By definition, the fact that it's a game means that at some point, nitty-gritty details will get in the way of gameplay...
I think you hit the nail on the head, pretty much most of DF could be abstracted away, but I think the attraction of DF is its level of detail. The idea of having tools for jobs just doesnt seem like its entirely more complex than any other part of DF, at least not to me.
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So you're saying we'll soon have tool belt wearing, fanny-pack sporting, backpack wielding encumbered of emo-death and suffering?
Ya, that's a brilliant idea, make sure all the freaking emo-dwarves have knives.
I could see it now... Hospital setup... Filled to max capacity... No emo-medics to assist in helping the recovering slit-wrist dwarves.
I know we all like the suffering, but do you really want that many fell moods and tantrums resulting quite possibly in catastrophic dwarf-failure?
The idea to speed up workshops with assisting items is good. Fishers could start de-boning fishies. Filleting. Loosing fingers... Impaled feet from bored-fisherdwarf (wrong side o' spear dummy) I think the Wunder Boner should be implemented! (It's a real product for deboning fish fyi...... you sick people you.)
There is a lot of complexity to be had. I know it's a Toady game, but wouldn't a little help go a long way in speeding up process?
From what I remember there is a ton of useless items. In future to have added purpose... but currently just stockpile junk and trader goop.
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I know we all like the suffering, but do you really want that many fell moods and tantrums resulting quite possibly in catastrophic dwarf-failure?
Hey we need something to make use of the new wounds system right?
and besides who WOULDNT sprinkle a tantrum spiral with knives and blunt instruments? it would be the dwarven thing to do.