Bay 12 Games Forum
Finally... => Life Advice => Topic started by: kcwong on January 22, 2009, 08:02:07 am
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Would you recommend reading "The Hobbits" before "The Lord of the Rings" (the three books)?
Would you recommend the other books edited from Tolkien's notes?
I also have just bought the 4th book of the Halo series, Ghost of Onyx. I finished the first three books last year.
The next series I have in mind is Douglas Adams' "The Hitchhiker's Guide to Galaxy"... and maybe all the books in Earthsea.
I'm trying to catch up... being a Hong Kong Chinese, while I've read many Chinese novels, I think I heard too much but read too little of these English classics and masterpieces. I already read many of H.P. Lovecraft's work on WikiSource.
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Wait.
The Halo novels are read by people who read things other than the Halo novels?
wat
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Well, there is some inconsitensyes of The Hobbit when put side to side (I mean read at once) with TLoR. But it's okay, since TLoR is more canon than The Hobbit.
And, The Hobbit is essentially for children, so it's much lighter in tone than TLoR...
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Frankly, I found The Hobbit to be a much better book than LoTR. Don't even bother with Silmarillion - it's practically unreadable.
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Or the children of hurin or any other Tolkien. Even LOTR can be a pain to read... Reading The Hobbit first explains a lot of references in LOTR though, you should read that one first.
Hitchhiker's guide is definitely canon, and should be compulsory for the world population. Read it.
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Frankly, I found The Hobbit to be a much better book than LoTR. Don't even bother with Silmarillion - it's practically unreadable.
I've got to agree with DJ. I've read the hobbit a couple times and enjoyed it thoroughly. I had to plow through my one reading of the LotR trilogy, and that was just to say I read it and didn't enjoy it to shut a couple people up.
Tolkien had a very vivid imagination, and a great ability to create worlds, but he wasn't a very good writer.
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Wait.
The Halo novels are read by people who read things other than the Halo novels?
wat
Well... :P
One day last year I had to go to a client for some on-site support. I investigated about some issues they've been having there, and didn't finish when it was lunch hour. They guys there needed to lock the office, so I had to leave as well, even when I only needed a few more minutes.
They told me to go for lunch... on my own. I was not invited to go with them. And they won't be back for two hours.
I walked slowly to a nearby shopping mall, ate in food court, and still got more than an hour left. Without anything to do, I went into a book shop.
And that's how I picked up the Halo books. I think I read about ten chapters of the first book, thought it was interesting, and they had a neat 3-book package which cost HKD40 less when compared to buying the three separately.
I don't even have an X-box, and I've never played Halo... but I thought I could use more reading so I bought them. :P
Today I went to another bookshop for "The Hobbit" after work, and I saw the fourth book right next to Tolkien's books. Even though the character I liked the most is already dead (Captain Keyes), I've already read the first three and I hate to leave the plot hanging... I'll have to see it through.
I hope you can rest peacefully tonight now that I've explained it to you. ;D
Edit:
Yeah, I've read online that Silmarillion is pretty bad. What about "Unfinished Tales"?
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I own the first of the LotR series. Yeah, go ahead, read it, but be prepared to read just humongous, overly excessive amounts of detail on every. little. thing.
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Don't get Earthsea...the first book is kind of cool and then they just suck. Especially "Tehanu" is terrible.
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Another person telling you to run the opposite way if you see the Silmarillion. Seriously, I only read maybe half a chapter, and even that little bit was a struggle.
The appendices are nice, though.
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Would you recommend reading "The Hobbits" before "The Lord of the Rings" (the three books)?
Yep. Like others have said, the LoTR series is actually a bit met. Tolkien could imagine pretty nifty stuff but was a rather dry writer.
Would you recommend the other books edited from Tolkien's notes?
The Silmarillion is ONLY for diehard Middle Earth fanatics. I don't think I even got halfway. Imagine the bible if you took out any reference to the jews and replaced it with elves. That's basically it. Very dense, not terribly enjoyable as literature.
The next series I have in mind is Douglas Adams' "The Hitchhiker's Guide to Galaxy"... and maybe all the books in Earthsea.
The first three books are good. The fourth is pretty good, but feels superfluous. The fifth is, oy, Adams himself said he was going through a rough time when he wrote it, and it shows. The fifth book is depressing. YOu might want to look into "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency" and "The Long Dark Teatime of the Soul". Both are also by Douglas Adams, and are enjoyable, if not exceptional, books.
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Uh, I liked Silmarilion. It's great if after reading the Hobbit and LOTR you're hungry for more information about Tolkien's world. It's sort of a compilation of said world's mythology(kind of what 'Poetic Edda' is for Norse world).
If you have to read just one story from it, go for the one about Turin Turumbar(hope I didn't mess up that name). I do agree that most of it is way to dense for it's own good.
Also, in my opinion, one can read either the Hobbit or LOTR first. Neither one requires knowledge of the other.
I need to ask you this, though: being Chinese, what did you read until now that you'd recommend for westerners? I know 'the Three Kingdoms' already, but there must be much more.
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I guess I'll leave Silmarilion alone for now... after I've finished the four books, if I still want more Middle Earth lore, I'll buy Silmarilion and Unfinished Tales during a sale.
I need to ask you this, though: being Chinese, what did you read until now that you'd recommend for westerners? I know 'the Three Kingdoms' already, but there must be much more.
Definitely Jin Yong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Yong#Novels). His 14 books are masterpieces, top of the genre.
Naturally I read the original, in Chinese. I've read a bit of the 14th book, The Deer and the Cauldron, on Amazon... it felt weird to me. Since his books have a great deal about martial arts, the translation might hurt your brain. But I'd say Jin Yong's books are worth learning Chinese for. ;D
For Three Kingdoms, there are two versions:
Records of Three Kingdoms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_Three_Kingdoms) is closer to true history (with lots of errors).
Romance of the Three Kingdoms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms) is fiction based on history. It is also what the games are based on usually, and what people talk about. Countless games were made about the Three Kingdoms, but I'd recommend above all KOEI's DOS game "英傑傳" (Legends of Heroes - my translation). It's a turn-based tactical combat game similar to Fire Emblem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Emblem_(video_game)). You play as Liu Bei, and you have options to follow the history (and die in the end as one of the possible endings), or change the course of history and unite ancient China under your flag.
Water Margin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Margin#Translations) is another classic. KOEI has a DOS game based on this noval, called "Bandit Kings of Ancient China".
Journey to the West (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West) is another classic. This is where DragonBall stole the idea of a monkey-boy from (and that's the only thing in common with DragonBall).
Nearly everyone grown up in a Chinese culture would have heard of the above books... and like Tolkien's, the Chinese-speaking population is divided into two: Those who have already read the above books, and those who are going to. ;D
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kcwong, have you read Brave New World? It's pretty entertaining.
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Frankly, I found The Hobbit to be a much better book than LoTR. Don't even bother with Silmarillion - it's practically unreadable.
I've got to agree with DJ. I've read the hobbit a couple times and enjoyed it thoroughly. I had to plow through my one reading of the LotR trilogy, and that was just to say I read it and didn't enjoy it to shut a couple people up.
Tolkien had a very vivid imagination, and a great ability to create worlds, but he wasn't a very good writer.
It wasn't that he was a bad writer. It's just that he got very long winded, which tends to lead to boredom for the reader.
There was a similar discussion on another forum recently about great fantasy novels. The people there pretty much concluded that while LotR established the fantasy genre as a serious, honest-to-God, this-is-not-just-a-fairy-tale genre in the public view, it's not a very interesting reading nowadays (for most people =)).
Of course, I'm butchering the words, as I am incredibly tired, and I probably don't make any sense. Oh well.
[EDIT:] Oh, and to answer (one of) the topic's question(s) (what I should have done in the first place <.<), I would say read the Hobbit before LotR. And then try LotR, and if it starts boring you, switch to another book, as it doesn't really get much more entertaining. It's one of those series of books that you either love or really could do without.
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kcwong, have you read Brave New World? It's pretty entertaining.
No, but I've heard about it. Thanks for reminding me about it!
Added "Brave New World" to my list, and "A Clockwork Orange" too.
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Wow, so glad to see others that think Tolken is retardedly long winded.
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kcwong, have you read Brave New World? It's pretty entertaining.
No, but I've heard about it. Thanks for reminding me about it!
Added "Brave New World" to my list, and "A Clockwork Orange" too.
As long as we're talking dystopias, you should give 1984 a read. If you haven't, that is. I'm guessing this book is pretty darn popular all around the world, so chances are you've read it already.
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Added "Brave New World" to my list, and "A Clockwork Orange" too.
As long as we're talking dystopias, you should give 1984 a read. If you haven't, that is. I'm guessing this book is pretty darn popular all around the world, so chances are you've read it already.
Nope... now you have an idea of how much catching up I need to do. ;)
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I would recommend Terry Pratchet's Diskworld books, which can be read out of order, although they tend to alude to some of the famous things that people in the West know about, but it shouldn't be too much of a problem. (I really haven't met anyone from Hong Kong, so I wouldn't know much about their knowledge on Western history, ideology, movies etc.)
There is also Robert Jordan's Wheel of time series, which is more serious than Sir Pratchet's work, and he didn't finish the last book before he passed away, so they have a ghost writer on that.
For more literature literature, there is Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart, and Catch-22.
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Wow, so glad to see others that have ADD.
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Three page descriptions of things can only be enjoyed by people who can only pay too much attention Fisher.
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Wow, so glad to see others that have ADD.
I fully believe you can respect something for it's artistic creativity and understand it's historical significance, while still saying it wasn't very well written or paced, or even that good of a read.
Kcwong- Depending on your stomach for violence and if you don't mind things that are written in a more modernistic or experimental fashion, try reading American Psycho. It's fascinating.
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Not Robert Jordan! Aigh!
People complain about Tolien goin onandonandon...
Robert Jordan has like a 1000 page book which spans one month of story time. They all move from point a to point b. Book Ends. I don't read the next one.
I'm seconding the Hitchiker's Guide. But the best stuff by Douglas Adams is his two-book Dirk Gently series. A "holistic detective". ;D
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I would recommend the Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin, but parts of it are fairly dry. I don't know what made me keep reading, but it's pretty good.
I don't know what kind of person you are, so read at your own discretion. It contains pretty much any bad thing you could do - incest, murdering family, gluttony, greed, etc.
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Kcwong- Depending on your stomach for violence and if you don't mind things that are written in a more modernistic or experimental fashion, try reading American Psycho. It's fascinating.
I hated that book I couldn't eat for hours after reading it
The only reason I finished it is because I'm obsessive compulsive about books, I HAVE to finish a book if I start it, no matter what. There's only been 2 or 3 exceptions where the boredom of reading the book outweighed the nagging feeling of not finishing it.
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I fully believe you can respect something for it's artistic creativity and understand it's historical significance, while still saying it wasn't very well written or paced, or even that good of a read.
Yeah, exactly how I feel. He paints a good picture but it's not exactly good reading. Just because something is not your taste doesn't meant you can't appreciate it.
Wow, so glad to see others that have ADD.
And that was uncalled for, how exactly can ANYONE here have ADD given we all play Dwarf Fortress? :P
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This guy claims to have both ADD and OCD. (http://www.depressionforums.org/forums/OCD-and-ADD-t2891.html)
But yeah, you're probably right on that one...
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This guy claims to have both ADD and OCD. (http://www.depressionforums.org/forums/OCD-and-ADD-t2891.html)
But yeah, you're probably right on that one...
I usually enjoy your antics Fisher, but THAT was going too far.
I used to frequent depressionforums.com, and it is a great supportive place filled with kind, patient people. I resent any and all attempts to make fun of someone their, seeing as how thats a community where people seek help and support for their problems.
In short, it's not funny.
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I'm going to go ahead and join the "Tolkien is way too long-winded, but his books are still enjoyable" club. I actually read the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings trilogy, Silmarllion, and The Children Of Hurin, and enjoyed them all.
I'm going to second the Discworld novels; I only read the first one thus far, but it was immensely enjoyable and the rest are supposed to be good, too.
The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy is a great series. The last book is a bit of a downer ending, but I see it as him saying, "Fuck this, I'm done," which I would be too after writing four completely nonsensical books about the same character.
Now, for my own advice...
You should definitely check out some of Raymond E. Feist's stuff if you're into fantasy. I really like his writing style, and his characters are great. Start with the two Magician books, Apprentice and Master.
Another book I read, which may not fit with the rest of this thread as it isn't Sci-Fi or Fantasy, is City of Thieves. It's a great book. Really well written and such. It's a historical novel set in Russia during WWII. My step-father suggested it to me, and it's really an amazing book.
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The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy is a great series. The last book is a bit of a downer ending, but I see it as him saying, "Fuck this, I'm done," which I would be too after writing four completely nonsensical books about the same character.
Oh, I've been meaning to get back to those... Although I hear that the downer ending was somewhat unintentional as I think he meant to get back to it but he died before that... So it's like... A double downer ending.
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A big list of books to check out... I don't think I can get bored (except from bad writing ;)) all the way to 2010! ;D
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The Running Man by Richard Bachman
Farenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury
Odd Thomas by Dean Koontz
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I second Odd Thomas, but it can get pretty dark at times.
Right now, I have a laundry list of Discworld novels and a few other miscellaneous ones I plan on getting through.
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The best American novels of this century are Tom Wolfe's "Bonfire of the Vanities", "A Man in Full," and "I Am Charlotte Simmons." Hands down. Read them or fail in life.
I'm also quite partial to Gore Vidal's historical novels (not the ones about robot transsexuals or whatever). Julian, Lincoln and Creation are all great especially Julian, although that just might be because I'm named after him.
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A book series I've fallen in love with is The Dresden Files
Just stay away from the horrible T.V series based on it
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Fight Club by Chuck Palanuik.
His name was Robert Paulson ;)
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Wait... it was a book? I had no idea, and it made a good movie too. Thats like a paradox or something.
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Odd Thomas was alright, but Dean Koontz can't do monsters worth crap. He's terrible at making up supernatural stuff. Rather unfortunate that he insists on doing it all the time.
The sequels should not be touched with a ten-foot pole, unless you are a devout Christian who just wants to read about how great God is. Bible-Lite.
As for long-winded descriptions throwing people off, I'd like to point towards a relatively well-known writer named STEPHEN KING.
The guy can go on for pages describing the space of a few minutes. But you know what? You're begging for every word. It's not the long-windedness of something that degrades it, it's just how good you are at pulling it off. It's not like a shorter summary is better, it's just that some people are better at writing long descriptions than others. Same goes for shorter descriptions, really. Or anything else for that matter.
Oh, speaking of which, Richard Bachman is Stephen King.
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As for long-winded descriptions throwing people off, I'd like to point towards a relatively well-known writer named STEPHEN KING.
As a kid I watched the movie version of Stephen King's "It"... I never did like clowns, and I started hating them after that. :P
But Stephen King has so many books... which one would you recommend?
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As for long-winded descriptions throwing people off, I'd like to point towards a relatively well-known writer named STEPHEN KING.
As a kid I watched the movie version of Stephen King's "It"... I never did like clowns, and I started hating them after that. :P
But Stephen King has so many books... which one would you recommend?
The Stand. Hands down the best book he wrote. I'd recommend picking up a couple others as well, like The Tommyknockers, IT, and one of my personal favorites Needful Things.
King also references other books within his books, so a character from Needful Things might show up in Cujo, for example, or an event in IT is mentioned in The Regulators. The more you read, the more you notice.
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Or "the better you look, the more you see". - Ellis
I recommend you read as much fantasy as you can first, because you won't go back to it. IMO.
Two I enjoyed that won't get mentioned otherwise are Threshold and The Iron Dragons Daughter.
Then I suggest: (really an excuse to list my favourites)
Money - Martin Amis
American Psycho - Bret Easton Ellis , or if you prefer your sex scenes without violence then : The Rules of Attraction (contains more homosexuality tho, might be a good one for you)
Paul et Virginie (french, but translated)
1984 - George Orwell
Robinson Crusoe - Daniel DeFoe
The Princess Bride - I forget who, or watch the movie.
Moby Dick - Herman Melville (fiction, history and philosophy in one)
Some good B graders are Tarzan, Eddie Shoestring and The Lost World (Arthur Conan Doyle). And a Sci-fi about a man who goes to sleep in some cave and wakes up on mars, he can jump real high and fight real well (gravity reasons) and ends up practically saving the world.. anyone know what it is??
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As Stephen King was brought up, I would recommend The Dark Tower series. I found the one where he picks up the schizophrenic wheelchair-bound lady to be kind of dull, but the other ones were good. It's probably because the whole series is ACTION ACTION ACTION pick up Suzannah ACTION ACTION ACTION
Also, this series is probably where all of the dead baby jokes originate.
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Listen to the Dark Tower audio book. Frank Muller does some absolutely incredible readings, but is then replaced by George Guidall when he crashes his bike and turns into a vegetable.
Also, it's just funny knowing that you're listening to over 24 hours of someone reading to you.
Now, as for Stephen King recommendations... Sadly, I haven't actually read that many. But I can recommend all the ones I've read (except for Desperation... Started out fine, then went flat. If you're highly Christian it might work for you).
I would like to recommend Rose Madder and The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, however. Rose Madder is a bit of an oddball book, but I liked it. A rather unusual blend of fantasy and realism. TGWLTG is just another one of King's wonderful mind-warpers.
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American Psycho - Bret Easton Ellis , or if you prefer your sex scenes without violence then : The
Lunar Park doesn't have sex (IIRC) or violence, just references to being bisexual.
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If you like sci-fi of any kind, then read Frank Herbert's Dune. I'm halfway into the series, and I love all of it.
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Foundation trilogy by Isaac Asimov (i know there's more but those 3 are good to start)
Any book by Robert Heinlein (Starship Troopers, Double star, Future history),Theodore Sturgeon, Isaac Asimov...
And theres so many others... Alfred Bester, Lester del Rey...
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American Psycho - Bret Easton Ellis , or if you prefer your sex scenes without violence then : The
Lunar Park doesn't have sex (IIRC) or violence, just references to being bisexual.
Yeh but it's not worth reading IMO. It's one of those novels where the only thing that redeems it is the end. Like House of Meetings (Amis) and Diary (Palahniuk).
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Well, it's better than American Psycho, I didn't think that had ANY redeeming qualities.
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Well, it's better than American Psycho, I didn't think that had ANY redeeming qualities.
Really? American Psycho is one of my all-time favorite novels. I thought it was hysterically funny, and a really critical look at the gluttony and excess and materialism of the 80's.
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Okay, I really have to recomend Lords and Ladies by terry pratchet.
"There are many recipies for [dwarven bread], but the common aim of all of them is to make a field ration that is long lasting, easily packed, and can disembowl the enemy if skimmed through the air hard enough."
Also, near the end there is a lot of iron and elficide.
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Right now I'm really enjoying Terry Pratchet's "Discworld" series. I second the recommendation for Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy and another outstanding trilogy is CS Friedman's "Coldfire" books. I liked Lord of The Rings a lot more than The Hobbit. Really liked the Silmarillion too, seems people either love or hate it.
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Okay, I really have to recomend Lords and Ladies by terry pratchet.
"There are many recipies for [dwarven bread], but the common aim of all of them is to make a field ration that is long lasting, easily packed, and can disembowl the enemy if skimmed through the air hard enough."
Also, near the end there is a lot of iron and elficide.
It seems like our dwarves and those dwarves have a lot in common.
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I found a blog... the owner posted his thoughts on some translated Chinese novels he had read, and links to free fan-translations (some Jin Yong books and Romance of the Three Kingdoms).
http://jdiscar.blogspot.com/2006/11/jin-yongs-wuxia.html (http://jdiscar.blogspot.com/2006/11/jin-yongs-wuxia.html)
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Okay, I really have to recomend Lords and Ladies by terry pratchet.
"There are many recipies for [dwarven bread], but the common aim of all of them is to make a field ration that is long lasting, easily packed, and can disembowl the enemy if skimmed through the air hard enough."
Also, near the end there is a lot of iron and elficide.
It seems like our dwarves and those dwarves have a lot in common.
Certain important ones, like the Scone of Throne, have also been stored for centuries... sound familiar?
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The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy is a great series. The last book is a bit of a downer ending, but I see it as him saying, "Fuck this, I'm done," which I would be too after writing four completely nonsensical books about the same character.
Oh, I've been meaning to get back to those... Although I hear that the downer ending was somewhat unintentional as I think he meant to get back to it but he died before that... So it's like... A double downer ending.
Not likely IMO.
1977 Douglas Adams has Simon Brett sign the contract for his radio series "Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
1978 The HHGTTG radio series broadcast for the first time
1979-1982 The radio series is heavily adapted and released as a book trilogy; all the material co-written for radio with John Lloyd was removed.
1984 After the three previous books became bestsellers, he added "So long and thanks for all the fish" which iirc is mostly a love novel.
1991 Doug Adams marries Jane Belson
1992 After the four previous books had become bestsellers he added the fifth book "Mostly harmless". By this time he was into environmentalism more than scifi.
1994 daughter Jane Adams born
1999 Adams moves to California to support the movie, which iirc fails at the box offices
2001 Douglas Adams dies
IMO the first three parts of Hitchhiker are one "thematic block", he later wrote a good addon to make money (So long and thanks for all the fish), and then another botched addon because he needed money (Mostly Harmless sucks).
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Echoing Tahin earlier in the thread, Feist's first 3 books (the riftwar saga, and I count the two magician books as one, as that's the only way I've ever found 'em) are brilliant. His rest is pretty damn good too.
Also, Robin Hobb. She's a brilliant author, just read her Assassin, Ship, and Tawny Man series (in that order).
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I've read a few books by Dean Koontz. Odd Thomas was decent, but I preferred his book "From the corner of his eye". Although I find that sometimes Dean Koontz tries too hard to be funny, either that or we have a very different sense of humour.
If I were to recommend an author it would have to be Neil Gaiman. I love his work, Anansi Boys is probably my favourite book. I've enjoyed every book of his that I have read. I often get tired of authors after several books, but I haven't had that problem with Gaiman. I even enjoy reading his children's books.
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I loathe Koontz. From what I've read of his, it seems that he's pathologically incapable of writing a character whose morality differs from Koontz's own without making the character a pathetic hypocritical strawman. But, oh well, that just means that you'll have less competition at the bookstore.
I read a lot of crime novels. The Parker series by Donald Westlake writing as Richard Stark is consistently good. Shane Stevens's Dead City is probably my favorite crime novel of all time. Elmore Leonard's Swag is also pretty good.
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All of Terry Pratchett's books.
All of Robert Rankin's books
Ian. M. Banks is a damn good author as well. Oh, and buy Dune as well.
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I liked the Silmarillion, too, but yeah that's not the first time I've heard someone compare it to the Bible.
I'll second that Terry Pratchet, Neil Gaiman, and Frank Herbert are three of the very best fantasy/scifi writers out there.
I'll also highly recommend Gene Wolfe. Easily, and consistently, one of the best writers (of fantasy, or otherwise) of this century.
John Crowley's 'Little, Big' is one of the best books, ever. The Solitudes isn't bad, either, but I'm having trouble getting through it. That's likely more me, and less Crowley, though.
Azimov is...ok, but I can live without him.
Heinlein's not bad, entertainment-wise, but he had a lot of agendas going on.
Ray Bradbury is excellent. One of my absolute favorites for sci-fi.
Robert Jordan's writing is just awful. Always has been.
Raymond E. Feist: Stick to 'Faerie Tale', 'Magician', 'Silverthorn' (it's not very good, but it's in the middle of two good books), and 'Darkness at Sethanon', as well as the 'Empire' collaboration with Janny Wurtz (who's quite a good writer, herself, by the way--I recommend 'Master of Whitestorm'.). Anything Feist wrote after those gets steadily more awful.
George R R Martin's 'Song of Ice and Fire' started out great (the first two books and the short stories), but the writing quality's really getting ugly.
David Gemmell isn't bad. Maybe not consistently great, but good for passing the time. I'm surprised noone mentioned him.
If you want to try something really interesting and out there, sci-fi wise, I suggest George Alec Effinger, particularly his 'Marid' series.
I also recommend Steven Brust's 'Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill'. I like his Dragaera series, but I wouldn't call them his best work.
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A good number of the books already suggested I would have to second, 1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four) and Brave New World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_new_world) for instance are very interesting, I found the plots slightly dull however but the ideas and points they raise are very interesting and thought provoking. I also enjoyed The Dark Tower series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Tower_(series)) by Stephen King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_King).
I recently finished Doors of Perception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doors_of_Perception) and Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_(novel)) each by Aldous Huxley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldous_Huxley) the author of Brave New World, the former two being an account of his use of mescaline administered by a Doctor and the later almost a sequel to Brave New World, get them if you enjoy Brave New World but skip Doors of Perception if you like, although its short and it relates to Island.
One other book I found amusing was Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Loathing_in_Las_Vegas) by Hunter S. Thomson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_S._Thompson). If you have seen the film and you enjoyed it then get this, its very funny and I just love his writing style. If you enjoy this one you'll want to check out his other works.
I know a lot of people who really like The Mote in God's Eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_in_God%27s_Eye) by Larry Niven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Niven) & Jerry Pournelle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle), its Sci-Fi about first contact but not quite what you might be expecting. I enjoyed it a fair amount although I haven't read nearly enough Sci-Fi for comparison.
One thing to consider is that all the books I've mentioned, excluding The Dark Tower and The Mote in God's Eye, are fairly short, 200 - 300 pages but are well regarded books with good content.
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This would be under the fantasy section, right?
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Neil Gaiman is awesome.
The Dark Tower series PISSED ME OFF! >:(
I READ SEVEN FUCKING NOVELS AND THE ENDING IS INCONCLUSIVE! >:(
GAH!
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Little I do know what you mean but it didn't bother me really as I enjoyed the journey in the book. With most films I know how they will likely end with "happily ever after" or something similar but it doesn't stop the film being enjoyable and even keep you guessing at times.
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Never ever read Michael Moorcock. I slogged all the way through the Elric books because I was OCD about finishing, and it was not worth it AT ALL. The only books where anything interesting happens is in the first and last ones...the other ones are just him wandering around trying to get random McGuffins for contrived reasons. Terrible.
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Would you recommend reading "The Hobbits" before "The Lord of the Rings" (the three books)?
Would you recommend the other books edited from Tolkien's notes?
I also have just bought the 4th book of the Halo series, Ghost of Onyx. I finished the first three books last year.
The next series I have in mind is Douglas Adams' "The Hitchhiker's Guide to Galaxy"... and maybe all the books in Earthsea.
I'm trying to catch up... being a Hong Kong Chinese, while I've read many Chinese novels, I think I heard too much but read too little of these English classics and masterpieces. I already read many of H.P. Lovecraft's work on WikiSource.
Read Hobbit first
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Little I do know what you mean but it didn't bother me really as I enjoyed the journey in the book. With most films I know how they will likely end with "happily ever after" or something similar but it doesn't stop the film being enjoyable and even keep you guessing at times.
I know, I just wanted more conclusion then that. When you grow to love a character, you want an ending, even if it's a bad one.
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Yeah, I was fairly (okay, extremely) unhappy with that ending. Am I alone in thinking that King got his muse knocked out of him when he got hit by that van?
Because I grew up reading the Dark Tower series. In his forewords he talks about how he doesn't "create" the stories so much as excavate them from his subconscious, and they're lurking down there fully formed. So back when he was writing about Roland's father knocking him across the bed in the whorehouse, he knew the series was going to end with the Fellowship of the Tower visiting Stephen King and reading some of the other books he wrote, and then after that it was gonna turn out that the story that we read (and paid hundreds of dollars for, in some cases) wasn't even the real story and didn't count? Bullshit.
To add insult to injury, he goes and retcons the earlier books so that they match up to the later books. There's an entire generation of kids growing up today that don't know about how "to speak of The Beast is to speak of the ruination of one's own soul." Or apparently nowadays it's to speak of a crazy old coot who wouldn't even make it as a boss in a Metal Gear Solid game, much less the guardian of the Tower.
For that matter, what ever happened to Thomas and Dennis?
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It sounds like Stephen King came down with a bad case of George Lucas.
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A Song of Ice and Fire FTW!
They're as thick as LotR but actually enjoyable to read :D
Be warned, they're very very dark in tone. While it is appropriate in context, the author doesn't gloss over the dark parts of medieval society. Let's just say they don't call it Raping & Pillaging for nothing.
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They're as thick as LotR but actually not as imaginative and without any point :D
Be warned, the writer is very very fond of incest and cruelty. While it is appropriate in context, the author doesn't gloss over any part that contains torture or brutalities. Let's just say they call it epic fantasy for nothing.
I suppose it's okay if you want to read big amounts of text.
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If you find a story you really like and a writer who has a style you can't help but love, there's really no maximum amount of text you can chew through.
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I notice that creating the maximum amount of text is his speciality.
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What, he's worse than Jordan or Tolkien in that regard? This I gotta see.
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I don't think anybody can be worse than Jordan.
What's funny is that Pratchett has probably written more than anyone else named in this thread, but nobody accuses him of wasting words.
Anybody here read Gene Wolfe? He really is the best writer out there. Not the most popular, by any means, but amazing.
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What, he's worse than Jordan or Tolkien in that regard? This I gotta see.
Nah, nowhere close. But after a book or two he's just circling around attempting to delay the ending.
The beginning was good because there was little to no magic, but soon enough he ruined it. I don't really have anything against magic itself, but the execution of it was pretty bland and uninteresting.
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What's funny is that Pratchett has probably written more than anyone else named in this thread, but nobody accuses him of wasting words.
To be fair, the least amount of time I spent on a Jordan novel was a week, wheras a Pratchet novel can be finished in 24 hours.
Jordan tends to go all out in details, to the point where I backtrack more often than I usually do, while Pratchet leaves your imagination to fill in the gaps (for example, there was a part in which he describes a barbarian hoard in the Light Fantastic simply by telling you that they wear leather if you want them to).
By virtue of being a comedy, you tend to pay more attention to what Pratchet has to say, because you want to laugh, while Jordan's style is basically an epic or a long story with a person (or people) who embodies the values of his author's culture, so it's mostly dry with a sprinkle of comic relief here and there.
That's about it in a nutshell.
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I agree, and you've summed their two styles up commendably well. 8)
Terry Pratchett, I think, has a desire to open up his audience to new ideas, and the way he accomplishes that is through humor, by way of fantasy writing.
Neil Gaiman claims that Pratchett is really a Science Fiction writer, and I think that's right (Infact, he's written some very good science fiction.).
He asks a lot of questions that start with "What would happen if...?" and manages to allow his readers to come to their own conclusions, while he provides the tools. I think fantasy just lets him have more freedom than science fiction, which is why he ultimately moved away from it.
As a writer myself, I can completely sympathise with how terribly hard it can be not to answer the questions that my writing asks. It's really very tempting to just say "and that's because Lord So-and-so, in the year 1000AZ, came to the conclusion that such-and-such was the right and proper, only Thing to do." Giving up control over your innermost expression is a frustrating thing to have to learn, and I'm still trying to learn it.
It's so much easier than casting your creative efforts out into the wind, in hopes of drawing somebody in, from where they were, to where they want to be--inside *your* head.
Personally, I think Pratchett's a philosopher, a gentle, humorous sortof semi-modern Socrates.
Robert Jordan can't be faulted for wanting to write, or for writing. His biggest flaw is only that he wrote what he wanted to write, without taking is readers' perspective into consideration.
There's creativity-and skill-and a lot of experience present in his works (and I *have* read atleast 9 of his books), but ultimately, it's an act of literary masturbation--pleasurable and satisfying for the performer-and with perhaps a certain thrill for the voyeur-but no real audience interaction, and less and less real storytelling craft, due to it's increasing insularity.
The fact that it's a performance masks the other things it lacks, somewhat.
If I had to sum there styles up as concisely as I'm capable of, I'd say that other people relate to Jordan, while Pratchett relates to other people.
That's the difference, for me.
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Has anyone read The City of The Singing Flame? (http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/26)
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im just gonna reccomends a book series. the shannara series, written by Terry Brooks(a guy).
i think there are like..................10 books in all. 6 books contianing their own group of peoples adventures, and 4 book at the end having one huge story. and yes all the books are connected.
very nice read, dont need to adapt to its wrters style like i need to do wth others
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Terry Brooks isn't too bad, except that his books become progressively more convoluted, even labyrinthly baroque, to the point where I can't imagine reading one of his new books without rereading everything else he's ever written again (possibly twice).
After doing all that, and with extensive notes, and a couple of good fan websites in hand, I might pick one up again (but I learned my lesson last time I did, unprepaired.).
Not that they're not enjoyable, just that I never quite get what the fuck's going on in them, anymore...
His Landover series is along the same vein--and worse--than Piers Anthony's 'Xanth' novels, though.
Has anyone recommended the Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever series? Those are fairly easy to get into, I thought, and-aside from a generally depressing and masochistic mindset-not bad writing.
Lots of original, useful concepts, if you can get past the desire for one of the other characters to kick Thomas's ass and steal his damn ring.
I'm guessing nobody's read Gene Wolfe? That's a goddam shame, and I don't mean that lightly.
A couple of other series that are older (and supposedly intended for young adults), but well worth reading, include The Chronicles of Prydain, by Lloyd Alexander, and The Dark is Rising series, by Susan Cooper.
Both concern Welsh mythology, and are accessible, extremely well-written, and very informative.
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I've read the Chronicles of Prydain a couple hundred times. I don't think I've picked them up in a decade or so, but I grew up on them. I also had the "Black Cauldron" game for the IIc.
Has anyone read The City of The Singing Flame? (http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/26)
Dammit, I was doing... something... Well, I'm apparently about to.
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Me too, they're great books.
Growing up, I read those, the Dark is Rising books, Madeline L'engle's stuff, the Narnia books, the Hobbit, little bits and pieces of the Lord of the Rings, Robin McKinley's 'The Hero and the Crown' (great book, as is The Blue Sword), pretty much everything by Piers Anthony (especially the Adept series), Tom Deitz's books (which are great), the Dragonlance books, and the Stainless Steel Rat books.
I've probably also read Raymond E Feist's 'Faerie Tale' atleast 5 times, too. It's by far my favorite by him.
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Does anyone else like epic poems?
I really enjoyed "The Song of Roland", I read it twice. It's about Roland, the nephew of Charlemagne, and how he shoves Christianity down everyone's throat, but then he gets betrayed and dies in the most epic battle ever. He also had Durandel, which was supposedly a holy sword that could never break, or something. It's really awesome, understanding the old english can be pain sometimes though.
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Have His Dark Materials and the Mortal Engines series been mentioned yet? And for anyone into sci fi that has a few months/years to spare I can advise the books by Peter F hamilton (Thicker than some bricks.) or the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanly Robinson (thicker than your average human foot, near the ankle.) Both are great but devour any free time and/or ability to sleep.
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I have read the Dark Materials trilogy, and I have enjoyed it, but it feels really child oriented in retrospect. I'll read anything good, but I'm not too sure about others and their take on that.
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I like Kim Stanley Robinson. I've got his 'Years of Rice and Salt' book around here, somewhere...maybe...and somebody actually stole another of his books I had.
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I have read the Dark Materials trilogy, and I have enjoyed it, but it feels really child oriented in retrospect. I'll read anything good, but I'm not too sure about others and their take on that.
Really? I thought it was one of those series that focused on ages dynamicly, the older you are, the more you think about it, the more you get it, it's self correcting. Up to a certain point, granted, but it's pretty damn well written.
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Has anyone read The City of The Singing Flame? (http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/26)
Wow, Clark Ashton Smith? I'm impressed, inaluct! 8)
http://www.eldritchdark.com/ <---great site, where inaluct's link comes from.
If you like Smith, here are a few other links:
Here's H.P. Lovecraft on the internet:
http://www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft/
Here's Robert E Howard:
http://www.thecimmerian.com/?p=166
And William Hope Hodgeson (another favorite of mine from the same time period)
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/h/hodgson/william_hope/
And last but not least, Lord Dunsany:
http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/d#a2685
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i like books with tons of fantasy and a better if it has a large army fight where i can picture the war in great detail.
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Then forget the Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander and skip straight to his really good stuff - the Westmark Trilogy. It's basically about a - musket & cannon level - civil war. It's Fantasy insomuch and the places never existed. No magic, at least none overtly.
Much as I like Prydain, Lloyd Alexander has even better stuff out there, and they just reprinted them a while back.
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(erudite reading matter)
I'm glad to see that someone else here likes that type of literature. I'll have to check out William H. Hodgeson; a lot of the stories listed on that link look interesting. :)
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He's really one of my favorites.
Some of it's a little like Gormenghast, a little like Moorcock's Eternal Warrior, and a little like Jack Vance's Dying Earth, with a lot of Lovecraft thrown into the mix--as written by a weird combination of Robert E Howard and Lord Byron.
I've never heard of anything quite like some of the things he came up with, though.
It's a tragedy he died so young and unnecessarily--he was wounded in WW1, while serving in the Royal Artillery, and sent home, but returned to the front lines while still on sick leave, and died there. Quite brave, and ofcourse crazy.
He was also an avid weightlifter, unusual for the time, and a photographer.
Reminds me a bit of Bromor, actually.
Those links are nice, because they'll also link to other authors/subjects that might be interesting. I was quite happy to find them.
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I have read the Dark Materials trilogy, and I have enjoyed it, but it feels really child oriented in retrospect. I'll read anything good, but I'm not too sure about others and their take on that.
Ohhh... did you cry in the end?
I would be lying if I said I didn't. Crying is not unmanly, mind you.
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In the vein of SHB's contributions, here's a site with links to links to online versions of thousands of authors whose copyright has run out, as well as piles of other goodies:
http://www.litgothic.com/index_fl.html
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I read this book not so long ago, and I've found it pretty interesting:
Chopper (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopper-Mark-Brandon-Read/dp/1904034144). This book tells the story of Mark Brandon Read, an Australian criminal.
PS..
[The 2000 film Chopper, starring Eric Bana as Read, was based on stories from Read's books and independent research.]
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Anything by Haruki Murakami.
Have read a few of his english translations, and they really are very good, if you ask me.
A bit more away from 'high fantasy' (sorry for lazy definition) as seems to be favoured by a lot in here, but very much in the realms of fantasy. The dream-like worlds he evokes in his writing are long lasting in there effect.
Try Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the end of the World or Kafka on the Shore also The Elephant Vanishes for some truly entertaining short stories (i think thats what they are called ...)
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I have read the Dark Materials trilogy, and I have enjoyed it, but it feels really child oriented in retrospect. I'll read anything good, but I'm not too sure about others and their take on that.
Ohhh... did you cry in the end?
I would be lying if I said I didn't. Crying is not unmanly, mind you.
I... did...
Well, I (am) was a kid. So it didn't matter... much, I think.
Seriously, you people here are really good at suggesting books. I think I'll have my (few) freetimes eaten by the books..
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I have to second the earlier recommendation of Gene Wolfe, fantastic stuff.
I have really burnt out on fantasy now mostly, except for foe Stephen Erickson's Tales of the Malazan. That stuff is unbelievable, probably from him being a RL archeologist/anthropologist in the Med/Middle East for 30 plus years.
Now I am deep into Sci-Fi mostly Space Opera, which of course, David Weber rules. I think the Honor Harrington series is the best reading i have done in many years. If your a fan of Horatio Hornblower or of the series that produced "Master and Commander" (i cant remember the authors name, i think its O'brien tho) then you will love the Honor Harrington series.
Other pulp fiction is fun, like the Starfist books etc.
Oh, if you love combat, any kind, read John Ringo. That dude rocks. Eat anti-matter Posleen Boy!
I could prolly list books forever.
Last notion: The Silmarillion was by far my favorite Tolkien book, so take that into account with my recomendations. Also, any book less than 500 pages really isnt worth reading IMHO.
GMcG
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"I have to second the earlier recommendation of Gene Wolfe, fantastic stuff."
Hooray!
I like John Ringo. I really do. Absolute crap writer, honestly, if you're talking technical aspects (enough so that it can at times make his books physically painful to read), but he's creative, he's got decent style, and his writing can be quite entertaining, in short bursts, if you can get past the Larry Sue, and the frequent, broad forays into psychopathic adolescence and kink.
In other words, the guy needs to be chained to an extremely competent editor, 24 hours a day, but the same can be said of a lot of best-selling authors.
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Damn, my sister has those books. We are a family of book worms aren't we :P
As for world literature, Welcome To The NHK was an entertaining novel, and even if you read the manga and saw the anime it is so much more different from the both of them.