Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => Life Advice => Topic started by: Aqizzar on February 22, 2009, 03:00:55 am

Title: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Aqizzar on February 22, 2009, 03:00:55 am
This came up in Strife's thread, but I wound up typing a big provocative reply that would probably make it's own discussion.  This being the new Life section of the forum, I'll just break it off into it's own thread.  These are some violent communist observations, born out of thinking too much while at work.

Aqizzar, you should write a book about your life working for UPS. You can get some awesome title like "Riding the Clock: The Story of My Life Carrying Other People's Crap," but better and more relevant.

I am a devout marketeer and always will be, but working for UPS, I can figure out where early communists got their ideas, and I sometimes wonder why violent populist revolutions aren't springing up every day.  When you all day toting crates of plasma TVs, hundred dollar shoes, and inflatable barbecues, busting ass for 9 dollars an hour, it's hard for me not to fantasize about leading my fellow Epsilons into a violent seizure and toppling of the wealthy ruling class.  That's jest really, but I do sometimes write broken dissertations in my head on the societal danger of excessive wealth.

I get by fine, because I normally only work part-time hours, the pay's not bad for what it is, and I've got plans about where to go once I get my degree.  But I can't help but feel some bizarre, likely misplace pity for many of my coworkers.  My main man is this guy Nusret.  He left Bosnia for America in 1996, when everything went to shit for him.  He wound up in Dallas of all places, got some nightschool English, and has been working for UPS basically since he got his greencard.  And for a dozen years, he's been working full time hours at the exact same job I got hired to nine months ago.  My other go to guy is a little Mexican dude a year younger than me.  He's already a divorced father, and works a full time job in addition to the part-time night shift with me, and involuntarily hides any time the on-station police officer walks by because he's got active warrants.

They're two stories among many.  There's hundreds of people I work with who I have to wonder if they even think about their future, let alone have any particular hopes for it.  I've always insisted that we are not defined by what you do for a living.  A chosen profession or career sure, but not a job to pay the bills.  But a lot of these guys, especially in light of the long depression we're entering, are completely fucked in terms of long-term financial security.  And working as small lot shipping handlers, you get other people's compulsive consumerism and tenuous grasp of reality rubbed in your face every night.  These aren't coherent, rational criticisms of market capitalism or anything like that, just ticked-off inspirations to do some raw plundering on the people who can obviously afford it, by the people who exhaust their lives making modern luxury possible in the first place.

It's more a reflection on me getting wrapped up in my thoughts to not think about work, but I've got to be on to something.  Surely there's something beyond self-preservation that keeps 40% of the population from turning all Liberal Crime Squad on greater society at any given time.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Kagus on February 22, 2009, 08:11:18 am
Join FedEx, I hear they have a maximum tolerable package integrity of 80%.  If it's over that, then it's time to bring out the big boots.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: JoshuaFH on February 22, 2009, 04:18:13 pm
I had a good friend that was indeed a communist. He believed in the communist ideals and studied the manifesto. Great guy, but no one would ever take him seriously because he was such a bad speaker and debater.

I have no idea why I wrote that, but I felt it was relevant.

You talk about how bad your job is Aqizzar, but surely it must have it's good points?
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Ignoro on February 22, 2009, 06:40:59 pm
Sounds like a Steven King book.

A delivery boy for a package delivery company keeps the addresses of the houses of families that come off as too rich, and he comes back later in the night to kidnap with his van and eat them. Police reports describe a man of sturdy build and heavy jaw with squinty eyes.

Quote
Surely there's something beyond self-preservation that keeps 40% of the population from turning all Liberal Crime Squad on greater society at any given time.
Find out why people go "postal" and compare it to anyone else who's simply disgruntled. They're missing something.

Have you ever actually seen someone "postal"?
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Aqizzar on February 22, 2009, 07:26:11 pm
Sounds like a Steven King book.

A delivery boy for a package delivery company keeps the addresses of the houses of families that come off as too rich, and he comes back later in the night to kidnap with his van and eat them. Police reports describe a man of sturdy build and heavy jaw with squinty eyes.

The more I think about it, the more frighteningly plausible the whole scenario becomes.  A pissed off package handling savant with a photographic memory and grudge against the world inspires his coworkers and blue-collar brethren to violent uprising with promises of plunder and social justice.

And then I realize that I basically rewrote the thesis to Fight Club.  I wonder how long it'll be before I start giving myself chemical burns at night.


Find out why people go "postal" and compare it to anyone else who's simply disgruntled. They're missing something.

Have you ever actually seen someone "postal"?

Not personally, but it has happened.  I think the last time was a couple years ago when a guy went apeshit on the floor manager.  Also, being UPS we call it 'going parcel', yuk yuk yuk.


You talk about how bad your job is Aqizzar, but surely it must have it's good points?

Relatively good salary for a part-time job that requires essentially nothing besides being awake.  Plus, full health and dental insurance and a tuition reimbursement program.  Apparently some people really hate this job, because they absolutely throw benefits at new hires, and we still have a nearly 60% first-year turnover rate.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Willfor on February 22, 2009, 07:44:30 pm
Luckily I don't have to worry, because (while you're not delivering to me personally) while I accept things from deliverymen that could be worth hundreds of dollars, it's because I have to turn around and put it into inventory and sell it to customers.

... for less money than you make.

And the job requires much more than simply being awake. :(

The one thing I have learned (among many) is that some people honestly have no idea how to pack a box. Ideally, you pack it so that NOTHING moves around inside, and you make sure that it will survive the shipping process. Accidents do happen in shipping, but 7 times out of 10, damaged product is the fault of the person who packed it. >:(
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: JoshuaFH on February 22, 2009, 07:46:10 pm
So you own a business Willfor?
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Willfor on February 22, 2009, 07:51:12 pm
Nope! I am the shipping/receiving person for a small christian bookstore. And double as a cashier. ... and a janitor. There aren't really jobs that you don't do when you work at a small store.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Aqizzar on February 22, 2009, 07:51:52 pm
The one thing I have learned (among many) is that some people honestly have no idea how to pack a box. Ideally, you pack it so that NOTHING moves around inside, and you make sure that it will survive the shipping process. Accidents do happen in shipping, but 7 times out of 10, damaged product is the fault of the person who packed it. >:(

OH. MY. GOD.

The only thing that makes my job problematic is the end result of exactly that kind of idiocy.  It's not fucking hard - don't ship loose bolts and electric motors in banker's boxes, put some damn newspapers in there, and quit being a cheap bastard and get some proper containers.

I've consider proposing a new program to my manager.  When we have to round up material and tape a box back together, we could slap a sticker on it saying "alert your purchasee to their inadequate packing".  At the very least, we should send notices to shippers whose packages get so obliterated that we can't even deliver them.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Torak on February 23, 2009, 12:23:05 am
To cut down on any essay writing I may have wanted to do tonight, I'll keep it short: What you describe (the "Little Man" rebellion) will happen, eventually, and it'll more than likely spark other, much worse crises across the world. Sure hope I'm not alive when it happens or if not that I'm the leader, because I don't want to see what happens to the obscenely rich. I'm talking crucifications en masse.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: JoshuaFH on February 23, 2009, 12:25:56 am
That sounds ridiculous Torak.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: inaluct on February 23, 2009, 12:28:02 am
I don't want to see what happens to the obscenely rich. I'm talking crucifications en masse.

There aren't enough of them for it to be en masse.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Torak on February 23, 2009, 12:58:36 am
That sounds ridiculous Torak.

You obviously don't do work that involves making/transporting/maintaining expensive crap for rich people.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on February 23, 2009, 01:39:02 am
I'm too much of a pansy to be a revolutionary.  So my plan is to become rich but not be an asshole.  If I leave a money behind when I die, and enough people do the same, we can save up and buy a revolution without all the nasty burning and pillaging and whatnot.

But if you ever do get the LCS up and running, make sure to let me know so I can come casually chat with you at a homeless shelter, after which I'll give you 948 dollars or become a secret advocate for your cause.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: JoshuaFH on February 23, 2009, 01:59:55 am
Don't you think your animosity towards the wealthy is misplaced? The wealthy aren't inherently bad, and it is the wealthy people that pay your salary.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Torak on February 23, 2009, 02:02:51 am
Don't you think your animosity towards the wealthy is misplaced? The wealthy aren't inherently bad, and it is the wealthy people that pay your salary.

No, it's business owners who pay you. I have worked for hard-working men who had to climb their way to where they are, people who buy gold plated dolphin statues and fish in the Caribbean with kitten bait. I have not worked for any 'bad' wealthy people, because I have not worked for wealthy people at all.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: puke on February 23, 2009, 02:09:34 am
Truth, my pinko friends, is stranger than fiction.  Never underestimate the depths to which the average human is willing to dive:

"Nov 1 1994
A group of South Korean cannibals known as the Chijon Family are sentenced to death for murdering and eating five people. The group was founded in 1993 by ex-convict Kim Ki Hwan and several other prisoners, in solidarity against the wealthy. Eat the rich."
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on February 23, 2009, 02:22:45 am
it is the wealthy people that pay your salary.
No, it's business owners who pay you.

Looks to me like there's some disagreement on what constitutes wealthy.  I think Torak is right in that there's lots of small business owners out there who are scraping by.  On the other hand, while the small operators are more numerous, the typical person is more likely to be employed by someone who's doing more then scraping by.

Also, I'd like to express confusion with the notion that the wealthy paying people rationalizes the existence of wealth.  The wealthy pay the working slobs, but without the working slobs, how wealthy would they be?
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Gunner-Chan on February 23, 2009, 12:14:07 pm
You know, I read this topic as "Eat the Reich, I have their mammarys" and I was going to ask what the hell that was supposed to mean...

I sure feel stupid.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: PTTG?? on February 23, 2009, 01:39:39 pm
Speaking of revolutions:

Quote
The Revolution WILL be televised.... and probably made into at least a
 half dozen reality shows.... "Dancing with the Militiamen"  "Survivor
 Detroit"  "Big Brother form San Quentin" "Trading Wives....for ammo
 and food".

Sometimes there are good things in the Google Financial Chat.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on February 23, 2009, 01:44:33 pm
Sigh looks like TV is still gonna be run by the corporate oligarchy...
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Duke 2.0 on February 23, 2009, 03:46:39 pm

 I'm generally opposed to this stuff because a good number of those people did something amazing and worked hard. It would be a stupidly horrendous crime to steal from them so people not as smart or as hard-working could get the results of their work.

 Of course, the key here is the people who deserved it. I'm sure most people don't deserve their riches as they were just handed money for being lucky enough to be born to rich parents. A full scale arson war on Hollywood is not outside my sensibilities.

 Of course, we can't force a government to be made based around how much work has been done. No, don't look at me like that with those ideas. I'm staying over here with my friend Capitalism. However, some aspects do need to be tweaked. What those are is iffy, only because even small issues cause massive riots by extreme people with extreme opinions. Normally we would ignore the idiots and that would be that, but those idiots hold enough power to cause difficulties with the law of whatever land they live in.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Cthulhu on February 23, 2009, 04:39:58 pm
Haven't there been enough examples of Communist systems in the past to make us realize that mankind will never allow themselves to be put under it?  The carrot is a better motivator than the stick.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Duke 2.0 on February 23, 2009, 04:55:54 pm
Haven't there been enough examples of Communist systems in the past to make us realize that mankind will never allow themselves to be put under it?  The carrot is a better motivator than the stick.
Start with a democracy and slowly take away their rights 'till they might as well be under a Communist system?
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: DJ on February 23, 2009, 06:03:02 pm
It's all a matter of perspective. I'm sure that Nusret thanks God each and every day for this great job.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: puke on February 23, 2009, 06:15:53 pm
what does an egalitarian economic system have to do with motivating people with sticks?  historically, people are in the business of throwing off monarchies in favor of communism.  which is really the ultimate expression of democracy, when you think about it.

but im glad were not sacrificing idealism in exchange for tawdry things like education.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on February 23, 2009, 06:53:00 pm
Haven't there been enough examples of Communist systems in the past to make us realize that mankind will never allow themselves to be put under it?  The carrot is a better motivator than the stick.

Modern communism has only ever been tried in well, rather backwards situations.  For example the Soviet Union was a shithole, but so was the Russian Empire that preceded it.  There are numerous examples of communities in less dire situations which adopted communist attitudes.  For instance, in early Christianity, many communist towns were formed.  Numerous American communes experimented with communism in the early 1800's.  There's the intriguing example of Catalonia in 1936.

Personally, I don't want to see communism anytime soon.  But the notion that soviet style revolutionary communism is the only type possible seems rather silly to me.  Communes survive much better when they're voluntary.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Electronic Phantom on February 23, 2009, 07:07:57 pm
Communes survive much better when they're voluntary.

And I read this as "Communes survive much better when they're volatile.

>.>

That being said, I don't want to see communism anytime soon either, but I'm afraid that closing my eyes to what is going on is a rather stupid course to achieve that end.

-(e)EP
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on February 23, 2009, 07:29:46 pm
Communes survive much better when they're voluntary.

And I read this as "Communes survive much better when they're volatile.

>.>

That being said, I don't want to see communism anytime soon either, but I'm afraid that closing my eyes to what is going on is a rather stupid course to achieve that end.

-(e)EP

Well, I recommend closing your eyes briefly about once every two seconds.  But that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Boksi on February 23, 2009, 08:09:32 pm
I'm a social democrat. In my opinion, instead of having a bunch of poor people and some middle-class people supporting the wealthy elite, we should have a glom of middle-class people with some wealthy people that actually put in some extra effort.

Or were just born into a rich family, the bastards. C'est la vie, isn't it?

Basically, everyone should be able to get by, but only just so. If you want some quality of life, work harder. But it always gets harder as you go up.

But no people starving. No people denied education. Not a perfect system, of course, but better than the current system, constantly driving a bigger wedge between the rich and the poor.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Cthulhu on February 24, 2009, 06:01:30 pm
A small, low-tech, agrarian community could probably successfully implement Communism, assuming there were no parasites.

We're not a small, low-tech, agrarian society though.  This is the age of superpowers, and the bureaucracy that would be needed to ensure everyone got what they needed and no one was getting a free ride would be staggeringly large, and when there are no incentives to work hard(Only punishments, which is where my statement about carrots and sticks comes in), how would this work?  There would need to be a bureau for every good and service, and these bureaus would have to communicate and cooperate quickly and efficiently, or the entire system falls apart.  Without the knowledge that quality work will bring benefits, people will do the bare minimum required to get what everyone else gets.

Or, we can do it the Capitalist way.  Instead of being told by the government, "Hey punk, make this or get out", you're told "Hey punks, we need this, and whoever does the best job gets mad bank"  Ideally, things move smoothly as people compete to get business, leading to the highest quality goods possible for the lowest reasonable prices.  Of course, people can screw things up, which is why there needs to be some government control to maintain a fair and balanced economy. 

So, yes, Communism works, as long as it's a small, morally upright, agricultural society(An example you mentioned is in the book of Acts, the early Christians had a communist system, and it worked for them), but I'm not one for farming.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: qwertyuiopas on February 24, 2009, 06:30:26 pm
Here in canada, people who can't work for some reason or another go on government funded welfare.

The issue is that any money they earn is deducted from that they recieve, encouraging a work hard or don't work at all attitude.

The best choice then would be a mathematical curve where people who work for less than the total welfare get less from the welfare but more total money combined so that working harder ALWAYS means more money.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Cthulhu on February 24, 2009, 08:38:13 pm
I'm not at all against welfare for people who need it to get back on their feet, or people who are physically or mentally unable to work.

Like you said though, once you're on, it's extremely difficult to get off, because if you start making more money, they start cutting stuff.  You have to quit cold turkey, and that can be hard to do.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on February 24, 2009, 08:48:23 pm
There would need to be a bureau for every good and service, and these bureaus would have to communicate and cooperate quickly and efficiently, or the entire system falls apart.  Without the knowledge that quality work will bring benefits, people will do the bare minimum required to get what everyone else gets.

Quality work doesn't bring benefits for 90% of the population.  And most people know how to do their jobs without a bureaucrat looking over their shoulder.  The vague threat of getting fired might compel people to work, but is that all that motivates them?  And does that motivate them to work in the way that most helps society?

Communism certainly has it's share of problems with motivation (and revolutionary communism many, many more), but you gotta keep a sense of perspective here.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Aqizzar on February 24, 2009, 08:57:12 pm
It's an extremely broad cultural thing.  In oriental countries, it's common pride for people to work extra hard to improve their company's bottom line, partly out of a communal workethic, but also as a conscious appreciation that it keeps the company around to employ them.

Doing quality work anywhere does tend to get people promoted or earn raises, benefits, and respect.  At least in non-entry level jobs.  In that case, yes, the threat of losing the job is pretty much all that motivates most people, because most people only take entry level jobs for the paycheck.

Bureaucracy is crippling in a top-down planned economy because of information lag, human error, and the simple fact that centuries of economic study still doesn't give us all the answers we need to predict macro-level shifts in needs and supplies.  Market economies can respond quickly to changes - but what they gain in adaptability is a lack of guarantee, especially to individual workers.  Every society draws a line somewhere between efficiency and compassion.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: The Moonlit Knight on February 27, 2009, 02:36:13 am
There's sort of an old joke that goes around here and there, something like:

COMMUNIST: "The economic freedom of Capitalism leads to corruption, greed, and inequality! The State must own all industry! No economic hierarchy!"
CAPITALIST: "Ridiculous! The State will take away all our freedoms! We need absolutely unrestricted businesses! No governmental hierarchy!"
ANARCHIST: "...Why not just give all people equal rights and get rid of our artificial scarcity economy and therefore abolish all hierarchies?"
COMMUNIST and CAPITALIST: "...RIDICULOUS!"
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on February 27, 2009, 02:38:37 am
We need a punch line!
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Captain Hat on February 27, 2009, 10:17:05 pm
Now then, we can look at the rich in two different ways.

The people who actually worked hard to get where they are, and are not pricks with their money

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And the jerks who flaunt their wealth and make stupid decisions with their money, life, and their children.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on February 28, 2009, 01:28:44 am
As I see it, Warren Buffet is like Robin Hood in a suit.  If you want to rebel against society in the most effective way, imitate him to the best of your ability.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: JoshuaFH on February 28, 2009, 01:40:54 am
As I see it, Warren Buffet is like Robin Hood in a suit.  If you want to rebel against society in the most effective way, imitate him to the best of your ability.

But I'd much rather imitate Teddy Roosevelt, America's most manly president ever!
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Groveller on February 28, 2009, 02:12:56 am
The solution is clear - we need to create a new working class, of circuits and steel. Many people lose their jobs to these newcomers, but a heavy tax on the corporations "employing" them goes towards ensuring that those who lose their jobs don't need them anyway.

Everyone knows the robotic uprising is coming. If I'm going to be murdered in my sleep by androids, I want to be sure I've earned it, first. Now if you'll excuse me, and I still need to make oatmeal for my Roomba to collect. Once he's done with the hair, glass and motor oil, that is. Next week I'll see it it can clean up fire.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on February 28, 2009, 04:00:53 am
So, corporations are taxed, to give people money to buy from corporations...
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: IndonesiaWarMinister on March 01, 2009, 05:49:02 am
Hmm...

I guess I need to research into magic again?
We need a suitable opponent for our Metallic Overlords
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: filiusenox on March 01, 2009, 10:43:25 am
Huh...I need to read up on robotics....

We need a government that's based on agriculture.It provides food for workers.If you don't work to help raise food you starve.

Oh and Groveller can you send me a picture of your Roomba cleaning up fire?
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: popers on March 01, 2009, 05:32:38 pm
I too understand how the poor can get pissed off at the rich.

I worked for 2 months in a 5-star, luxurious hotel situated in central London. As a housekeeper, which means an awful lot of hard and sometimes disgusting work. I sudy linguistics and figured out that working in London might be a good way to enhance my linguistic potential (I'm not a native English speaker).

This was a fucking nightmare, I kid you not. After a hard days work I was so flushed out the only thing that made me chill out was a mix of 3 pints of lager and about 10 cigarettes. And I wasn't desperate - I didn't do it for money, so I could walk away at any time. My co-workers - now that was a different matter. Underpaid, Overburdened with tasks and no appreciation. Maids, for example, had to clean feces from toilets, take care of used needles wrapped in linen some guests left (yeah, thats a true story, one girl stung herself) and all the sick stuff for minimum wage. I didn't quit only because I knew I'd be going back home in a couple of weeks but I'd rather not be in position of someone who came to the country and has to perform such a hard work for minimum wage, without any real perspectives for change while being trated as rubbish.

What made it worse was the fact that we had to witness how the rich guests of the hotel treated us. Often spoilt kids who won't have to work in their lifetime just because they had a wealthy daddy and not even a spark of intelligence in their eyes etc.  ...

How many times I wanted to smack them in the face - you have noooo idea. And the experience made me appreciate all the "difficult" jobs. It's a sad world out there...  :-\
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: JoshuaFH on March 01, 2009, 06:31:32 pm
My Aunt is always saying something along the lines of "Be appreciative of the lower people that do all the hard work" like waiters, cleaners, etc. It took me a while to understand why growing up, but it's much more visible now that I'm older.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Yanlin on March 02, 2009, 11:15:47 am
There's a little saying. The harder the job, the less it pays.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on March 02, 2009, 01:40:11 pm
There's a little saying. The harder the job, the less it pays.

Eh... I disagree.  Most well paying jobs do require hard work.  Well paying jobs and crap paying jobs are just hard in different ways.  Of course, doing nothing but milking the system from a cushy position at the top barely requires you to work at all.  But most of what are well paying jobs IMHO aren't like that.

Just look at the investment bankers who ruined our economy, that's a competitive field.  Rising to the top in that environment means you have to be willing to bring 110% every day, not even batting an eye at the prospect of spending 12 hours in the office minimum.  Otherwise you'll never produce the volume needed to stay employed, let alone get promoted.  Even then, you have to spend every waking minute kissing ass and finding scapegoats for those that huge volume of stupid investments you've been making.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: codezero on March 09, 2009, 09:53:46 am
^^^^^^^ agree
At the end of the day you're probably better off lifting boxes than in an office stall. Everyone needs some exertion, and either you do it working or you have to find some recreational activity. And golf may sound a lot better than lifting shit but being forced to stay in an office for 8 hours isn't.

What I really wanted to say though was, I think it's just a sign of ambition to be wealthy yourself to resent the rich, when you don't actually need money to survive. (before you refute that on technicalities, I've done it in the city(homeless) and in the bush(restless))

I think the best way to rise up is to reduce your dependency on it. (Though that's quite hypocritical of me in my current situation, at least I've accused another of hypocrisy)
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Bromor Neckbeard on March 10, 2009, 01:56:30 pm
Quote from: Yanlin
There's a little saying. The harder the job, the less it pays.

I agree with this.  Sure, work in a competitive office environment can be stressful, but stressful work is not necessarily the same as hard work.  As competitive as investment banking or advertising can be, at the end of the day, those guys are still working in an air-conditioned environment where the worst thing that can happen to you is a paper cut or maybe an ulcer.  Even if they make a series of horrible mistake, the worst possible consequence they will have to suffer is finding another job.

Contrast that with construction or agricultural work.  If you're sandblasting the underside of a water tower, if you fuck up (say, by accidentally hitting your safety harness tether with the blast), you WILL either kill somebody else, kill yourself, or at the very least break half the bones in your body and spend the rest of your life paralyzed.  Yet the average pay for this job is ten dollars an hour.  A strawberry picker only has to worry about wasp stings and ant bites, but it's hard, hot, dirty, back-breaking labor that (in many cases) pays LESS than minimum wage.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2009, 06:52:03 pm
What's your definition of hard here?

I'm not saying sandblasting is easy.  But an engineer or lawyer or doctor could be taught to sandblast in a pretty short span of times.  It takes years to learn to do one of their jobs.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Bromor Neckbeard on March 10, 2009, 07:08:35 pm
Well, the definition I was using, and the definition Yanlin's saying was using, was "physically difficult, requiring a substantial amount of effort".  Learning the job in the first place didn't come into the discussion at all.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2009, 07:09:49 pm
Well that I can agree with.  Physical labor mostly pays crap.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Hawkfrost on March 10, 2009, 09:28:53 pm
What do we need more, labourers or lawyers.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on March 10, 2009, 09:42:17 pm
A world without lawyers would be a world of arbitrary law.  Lawyers help keep things civil.  They're essentially a part of government (which really has me wondering why you are encouraged to buy their favoritism.)
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: popers on March 11, 2009, 12:11:08 am
we need more bankers. Those folks seems to know what they're doing !
 ;D
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: qwertyuiopas on March 12, 2009, 07:05:23 am
Wouldn't it be great if anyone making over X each year had to be tested for political corruption? With a risk of losing their jobs?

Or at the very least, corperations found to be producing harmful products and faking studies that say they are harmless and then selling them to the general public for profit that they don't really need because they are RICH but want more money anyway, those should be fined all of their money and their executives forced to work in their own sweatshops for a few weeks.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Groveller on March 12, 2009, 07:31:50 am
(Incidentally, the Roomba did fine. No footage or pics, sorry - RoboMop hocked my camera to buy a Wii.)
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Yanlin on March 12, 2009, 07:51:53 am
Wouldn't it be great if anyone making over X each year had to be tested for political corruption? With a risk of losing their jobs?

Or at the very least, corperations found to be producing harmful products and faking studies that say they are harmless and then selling them to the general public for profit that they don't really need because they are RICH but want more money anyway, those should be fined all of their money and their executives forced to work in their own sweatshops for a few weeks.

I'd rather stick em in prison. Hypocritical justice is just as bad as no justice.

But it should have nothing to do with already having money. They poisoned tons of people. They deserve punishment. I'd support the death sentence here.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Vactor on March 26, 2009, 06:18:31 pm
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves the much higher compensation."

  --  Abraham Lincoln,  State of the Union message, 1861


While i'm not much of a socialist, I think that it is entirely workable with government providing all service industries, while private enterprise is left to manufacturing, agriculture and resource production with well organized and protected labor. 

As people have said wealth can only be grown, mined, or manufactured, anything else is spreading it around.  (not that this is a bad thing)

just an example of for profit service sector lunacy:  If you are diagnosed with a medical problem, you will no longer be able to buy medical insurance.  (not a matter of price, you will be outright denied enrollment)  This creates a problem, as now because of that medical problem you will be unable to be insured for if you fall and break your arm completely unrelated to that original medical problem.  Modern private insurance is more of an unwinnable lottery than anything.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: umiman on March 27, 2009, 03:19:05 am
No offence to the dead, but Abraham Lincoln lived in a time before iPods and the internet. I can assure you that nowadays, you can have capital without any labour. In fact, it's probably easier to use capital to produce labour (or labour incentives) than to use labour to produce capital.

Neanderthals would disagree, but they obviously have not been in contact with banking systems or the stock market in general.

Simple proof: today's economy. Everyone got screwed over not because we're a labour-focused economy, but rather a capital-based one. Incidentally, countries that support a large labour force suffered the least from the economic downturn but countries that support a large labour force also don't have basic amneties like say... clean water.

I'm not saying one system is better than the other, but the simple fact is that anything more than (generally speaking) basic government intervention in this day and age is impossible from every perspective. As I am talking about governments, it should be worth noting that several billion dollars is still considered "basic". "Advanced" government intervention would be something like them allocating specific jobs to specific people or closure of private healthcare.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on March 27, 2009, 10:39:53 am
Simple proof: today's economy. Everyone got screwed over not because we're a labour-focused economy, but rather a capital-based one. Incidentally, countries that support a large labour force suffered the least from the economic downturn but countries that support a large labour force also don't have basic amneties like say... clean water.

Needs Citation/Elaboration.

Keep in mind that developing economies tend to be very dependent on the export of low value resources (mineral extraction/agriculture/fossil fuels.)  Currency instability and reduced imports by developed economies thus can have a devastating economic effect.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: umiman on March 27, 2009, 12:14:02 pm
Sigh... *grumble* why must I keep proving to everyone that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the economy *grumble* 3 years of formal business training *grumble* ignorant masses... *grumble* actual experience managing labour markets instead of just talking jack shit over the internet...

Quote
Adam Arvidsson. . "The ethical economy: Towards a post-capitalist theory of value. " Capital & Class  97 (2009): 13-29,179.

Abstract: Social production has risen on the agenda of the social sciences. Yet most observers have been reluctant to confront the question of the value of these practices. Instead they have mostly been characterised as 'free', 'common' or beyond value. This article argues that far from being free, social production abides to a particular value logic, an 'ethical economy' where value is related not to the input of labour time, but to the ability to give productive organisation to a diffuse connectivity or, which is the same thing, to transform weak ties into affectively significant strong ones. The article concludes that progressive politics should work with this new emerging value logic.

David H Autor. . "Explaining trends in wages, work, and occupations. " Chicago Fed Letter  1 Apr. 2009: 1-4.

Abstract: It is widely recognized that inequality of labor market earnings in the US has increased dramatically in recent decades. Over the course of more than three decades, wage growth was weak to nonexistent at the bottom of the distribution, strong at the top of the distribution, and modest in the middle. While real hourly earnings of workers within the bottom 30% of the earnings distribution rose by no more than 10 percentage points between 1973 and 2005, earnings of workers at the 90th percentile rose by more than 40 percentage points. Thus, the periods of 1973-1989 and 1989-2005 represent two distinct periods of rising inequality: the first one of diverging wages throughout the distribution and the second of polarizing wage growth. Employment polarization presents both challenges and opportunities for the US, as well as other industrialized economies. The rising productivity of highly educated workers is good news. But the growing importance of manual and service tasks presents a challenge.

Liu Heguang, Minoru Tada, Sun Dongsheng. "Changing patterns in comparative advantage for agricultural trade in East Asian countries. " China Agricultural Economic Review  1.2 (2009): 227-238.

Abstract: Economies in East Asia are at different development stages. Economic development has an impact on factor endowments and the intensities, then on the mode of agricultural trade. To examine the trade modes of these seven East Asian countries' agricultural products will give us some hints to understand the question how economic development impacts the changing patterns in comparative advantage (CA) of agricultural products. Therefore, this paper aims to test the question by using a four-quadrant method. Trade specialization coefficient is used to analyze the agricultural CA among aggregated agricultural products and two typical kinds of products: labor- and land-intensive agricultural products. Then a four-quadrant method is applied in this study, where trade specialization of agricultural products consists of 2D: labor-intensive and land-intensive. The study intends to test the changing routes of CA of agricultural products under the background of economic development and changing situation of factor endowments. The analysis result supports that economic development has impact on the trade mode of agricultural products. The four-quadrant method is firstly applied to analyze the changing pattern of agricultural products in East Asian countries. This study shows that the changing routes of CA of agricultural products will not limit to only one mode as found by current studies.

Nguyen Khanh Doanh, Yoon Heo. "Impacts of Trade Liberalisation Commitments on the Vietnamese Economy: A CGE Approach. " The World Economy  32.4 (2009): 606.

Abstract: This article quantifies the economic effects of tariff reduction following Vietnam's WTO accession. It differs from previous studies in several aspects. First, the model incorporates non-standard features of the Vietnamese economy (e.g. changes in the domestic tax system). Second, the model divides Vietnamese households into 10 groups, allowing for the assessment of household welfare and income distribution. Third, the model has been run employing the most up-to-date database available. The major findings are summarised as follows. First, Vietnam as a whole would benefit from trade liberalisation. Second, the overall gain would be accompanied by a redistribution of income and a moderate increase in inequality between the rich and the poor. Third, concerning sectoral output, export-oriented sectors, sectors with large shares of input in total imports, and those with increased domestic demands are likely to expand, whereas, in contrast, domestic-oriented sectors are likely to contract. Measures to increase labour mobility, target disadvantaged groups and areas, and further liberalise service sectors are recommended as the recipe for effective utilisation of integration, as well as a more equitable pattern of growth.

"World News: World Watch. " Wall Street Journal  [New York, N.Y.] 28  Feb. 2009, Eastern edition: A.6.

Abstract: Newspaper article.

"Lithuania. " Oxford Economic Country Briefings  : Lithuania 11 Feb. 2009: 1-5.

Abstract: Demographics. Example country of what I'm talking about.

Go read them. Furthermore, I said "suffer the least", not "don't suffer". What this means is that of course there will be an impact from global economic crisises but it won't have as bad a relative effect as it would have on major countries.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on March 27, 2009, 01:19:23 pm
I'm sorry, but those abstracts don't seem to be particularly relevant to this discussion.  The impression I draw from the abstracts is that these papers discuss the growth of emerging economies and the effect on economies that were already strong.  However, we are discussing contraction, when those factors aren't working...

And I really doubt I have the technical background to understand such discussions anyway.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: umiman on March 27, 2009, 03:18:19 pm
Exactly, you don't have the technical background to understand the discussion.

...

 :D That was a joke. Sorry, was being a bit mean.

The abstracts give you an idea of the opinion. The opinion is formed from a conclusion drawn from multiple research sites. If you're familiar with university, then you should understand it. It's like writing a paper. IF you had the capacity to read the books and articles I linked, then you should be able to understand what I'm coming from. Considering that you probably don't have access to these kind of things, it bring about another stunning conclusion which I segway-ed in.

There's no point in me citing my sources because you guys couldn't access them.

I can elaborate like this:

"The ethical economy" discusses how we are moving from a labour intensive market, which would add weight to my assertion that we are moving away from a labour intensive market.

"Explaining trends in wages, etc." adds on to that by adding wage disparity among service industries and basic labour markets particularly due to lower demand for the product in these regions. It emphasizes a labour shift to capital assets.

"Changing patterns in comparative advantage" discusses the opposite, wherein Asian developing countries have a heavy emphasis on labour and manual work instead of capital assets.

"Impacts of trade liberalization" then talks about how economic disasters have relatively minor effects on the economies of these growing nations.

The other two provide real world examples of the discourse.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Vactor on March 27, 2009, 10:15:59 pm
the current economic crisis is exactly the reason why labor is superior to capital.  Thinking that you can sustain a system where one country makes its money of its money, and buys its goods from another leads you to a hollowed out economy that...as it turns out.. is just a house of cards. The country that is exporting goods has nothing to cash its money in for from the first, other than making money off their newly gained money.

In this scenario who ends up with the money that is making money?
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on March 28, 2009, 12:27:41 am
uniman, so basically, you want me to take it on faith that these sources mean what you say they mean and should be trusted?  can't you give a general gist at how the sharp decline in exports scenario I outlined is unlikely?
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: umiman on March 28, 2009, 02:51:40 am
I can say the exact same thing for you. You keep asking me to prove and prove but I've yet to see you do anything of the sort beyond just saying things and asking other people to hold the onus.

I don't expect you to have faith on anything. You asked for sources, I gave you sources. Credible, legitimate sources that actually exist on a format other than a webpage written by award winning authors, mediums with readerships of millions, and sources trusted by multinational conglomerates like PepsiCo and Exxon. I can't be blamed if you, AFTER asking me for them, refuse to check the sources and just simply assume they can't be trusted.

It's unfair that you just keep piling on condition after condition. I gain nothing by convincing you of reality, only some level of appeasement. Seriously, why should I bother to go any further if you are completely convinced of your "rightness" and refuse to take any action on your own behalf to actually see if you can be wrong? Am I going to get money for it? I don't care if you don't believe the truth. It won't affect me in the least. You're obviously no leader of any real power in this world and as such, you thinking the way you do will have zero effect on the world itself as well.

I stand to gain nothing from attempting to appease you nor will I lose anything. Simply put, if you refuse to take steps to at least understand the case, then I won't bother attempting to dissuade your either.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: vitaoma on March 29, 2009, 08:53:54 pm
I think a big revolution/war is happening in the next 10-20 years and you'll agree with me if you take a look at the economical crisis, uneven wealth distribution and global warming problems. People just can't see that we don't need that much stuff and we'll have to live a simpler life. Either that or many, many people are dying.

About the communist thing, I don't think it's so far away or unreal. I'm in (at?) the first year in highschool, in São Paulo, Brazil. Even though my family is not poor and I am in one of the best schools, I have many friends that agree that things aren't going the right way and a revolution is going to happen. I have like 6 friends that are communist, and I am a little bit too. Two of them even have meetings with another communists in the metro, every week.

People should look outside and see that their lives are so incredibly ridiculous and small in the world, stop being so selfish and start thinking about the others.
I agree with most of you: USRR (is this how you say in English?) and Cuba didn't go quite well. I tell you, it's because of selfish and violent people (e.g. Fidel and Stalin). And even with the superhigh corruption, you will have to agree that those countries have/had an optimal rate of education and technology. Also think about the people who were living miserably, dying of hunger and cold in First World War: USRR was a great thing for them.

Communist/Socialist ideas are great, but people aren't, unfortunatelly.

In any way I think my ideas are definite and I'll gladly discuss about this with anyone.

Sorry for bad English.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on March 30, 2009, 01:08:21 am
I stand to gain nothing from attempting to appease you nor will I lose anything. Simply put, if you refuse to take steps to at least understand the case, then I won't bother attempting to dissuade your either.

I'm sorry.  Have I sounded particularly close minded here?  To clarify, I think you are probably right here.  After all, it's you who is the expert.  But I would appreciate some sort of cause and effect relationship.  To sumerize our arguments right now as I understand them:

Mine:  Make some falsifiable observations about developing economies and make a falsifiable claim that these observed properties leave them vulnerable to economic downturns.

Yours:  You are wrong because these people, who's works you have no access to say so.

I'm not saying that my argument is right because it can be understood.  But I'd appreciate it if you made a general effort to explain your argument without resorting to an appeal to authority.  Can't you give me a general, cause and effect explanation?  Because a completely blackbox argument convinces no one.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Aqizzar on March 30, 2009, 01:35:51 am
Needs Citation/Elaboration.

A citation is not an appeal to authority.  (For reference, an appeal to authority would be the Lincoln quote Vactor posted as if it were an inarguable certificate of rightness.)  Inability to understand an answer does not mean the answer is wrong.  Being unable to argue with other peoples' works does not make them wrong.

What umiman was chastising you about was citing your own demand for further explanation as a problem with his answers without any specific criticism.  Refusing an answer by way of demanding a better one, especially without offering an alternative answer of your own, is an argument only by frame - it's certainly not a good one.  Now, if you were to instead just ask for an explanation, without the implication that the answer somehow has to pass your muster to be correct, you'd all be getting along better.

I really wish I could comment more on the subject of political outcomes of recessions and unequal wealth, but my field is argument not economics.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on March 30, 2009, 03:42:57 am
But I'm not saying he's wrong!  I'm saying I feel left out!  This is an interesting topic for me, but he's hiding his points behind a curtain.   :'(

If he feels there's a point in telling me what the right point of view is, why can't he tell me anything about that point of view?

I mean, suppose I was explaining natural selection.  I wouldn't need to start off by explaining how fraternal bonds act as an evolutionary device.  That's more dept then is needed.  But I could say:

You've got random changes and variations in the gene pool.  These differences in genetic makeup result in different traits in organisms of the same species.  These traits affect the odds of an organism surviving and reproducing.  Genes are only passed on by creatures that reproduce.  Thus over time, the genetic makeup of a population is going to be influenced by "selective" pressures.

Isn't that a much more interesting thing to say then something like:

Look, natural selection happens.  You don't know what you are talking about.  But this was explained by:
The origin of species (Darwin explains evolution)
The monk in the garden (a description of Mendel's work on hereditary factors)
The selfish gene (Dawkins explains natural selection)

The second kind of argument makes for a really boring discussion.  It has it's place if someone is being obtuse.  But I don't think it's obtuse to ask for an explanation that's actually comprehensible.  I still have no clue what uniman's argument is.  And that makes me sad because it's probably a really interesting argument.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: codezero on April 05, 2009, 11:04:45 pm
Keep in mind that developing economies tend to be very dependent on the export of low value resources (mineral extraction/agriculture/fossil fuels.)  Currency instability and reduced imports by developed economies thus can have a devastating economic effect.

Just want to dispute this point. Which workers are laid off in economic instability, farmers or secretarys? Miners or bankers? And what can we more do without, food or ipods? Houses or movies?

Also note that Australia is a first world nation, and as far as I know our 2 main exports are in the agricultural and mining sectors. I'd guess China's main exports to be in the manufacturing sector.

Developed economies may reduce their import of resources, but developing countries will still win* out economically if they are producing the more nessesary goods and services, and that's labour assets, not capital speculation.

*Relatively, developed nation's will lose more than developing nations, thus developing nations will actually have more of the worlds money.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: yggiz on April 06, 2009, 11:53:52 am
Everyone knows labor strikes. It's worse when capital goes on strike.

Suffering in America is nothing like suffering under the Tsar, or some Generalissimo, or anything like that. Whine about the Patriot act, but no one is going to send you and your family to prison for posting or commenting in this thread. Get some perspective.

It is easy to use "the rich" as whipping boys for the ills in society, and in our lives. It does not make it true. Envy of a bunch of trust fund baby airheads, and ANYONE with a show on E! or MTV is understandable. If someone is a jerk to me, I get angry. I draw the line at contemplating revolution. Revolution is for Important Things. Not because of 300 dollar haircuts and gold dolphin fountain statues. More like the state imprisoning you for 25 years because your neighbor denounced you to the secret police. That way he could take your stereo. And even revolution for Important Things can lead to very undesirable results.

Read Mao: The Unknown Story, by Jung Chang and John Halliday, to see this particular fellow's rise to power from very humble peasant family beginnings. And then the ruthlessness he treats people, not just class enemies or masses of unnamed peasants, but his own ideological allies. Even if you are a dedicated Maoist waving your little red book and murdering your teachers, you ought to read about the conflicts Chiang Kai-Shek was dealing with. Die hard ideologues will never be changed by this book of course( I'm sure that the BBC correspondent I heard bragging about waving the little red book around in England during their youth will never consider reading this obvious rightist propaganda. Maybe Mao's meeting with Nixon and Kissinger hurt his popularity more than the Cultural Revolution).

Read The Gulag Archipelago, by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. Read all three volumes, no abridgements. I cannot stress it enough. Although long, it is a very quick read, with a lot of personal anecdotes about secret police arrests and interrogations, the brutal nature of the forced labor camps (Solzhenitsyn and other testimonies attest that forced-death was the real goal for political prisoners (nicknamed 5-8's in honor to the article of the criminal code that enabled their imprisonment), and personal stories about cowardice and bravery among all the "zeks". Make sure to read about the differences in the way Criminal Offenders were treated as opposed to Political Offenders. I'd become a burglar just for the better treatment than the poor fellow who wrote a limerick about Lenin. Or looked like he was going to write it.

And the stories are true!

Read Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand, for a rationale that wealth in and of itself is not evil, but many of the pursuits of it are. Read about how producing something is good, and that it is also the goal of those capitalists that the real world loves to hate. Read about how picking yourself up, and DOING something with your live is way more moral than forcing others to support those who won't support themselves, through ignorance, greed, or whatever. I am no Objectivist, but the most important part, in my honest opinion, is the explanation that money is not evil. If you can read just one part, read that one. And maybe about how faith and force the the biggest sticks to beat honest producers over the head with. Surprising how many communists and anarchists would agree with that last sentence, eh?

But this one is a very difficult read for me. Rand suffers from verbal diarrhea. I get it, oppressive nationalization of other peoples' creations is akin to human sacrifice (ahem, "eat the rich"), you don't need to write another 20-page essay on it!

If you want classless greed pick up a newspaper. Read about robberies and gang shootings and all that. As much as an excuse for class warfare that the AIG guys or Paris Hilton is, they aren't leaving anyone bleeding to death in a gutter.

Revolution is not idle talk. Crazy extremists call for it in the developed nations, sure. Crazy Facists, Anarchists, and Communists. Crazy will be crazy no matter who is in charge. The Left gets into a tizzy claiming the Right in America is sewing the seeds of it with all their gun talk and criticism of Obama. They think that Rush Limbaugh, Fred Phelps, the KKK, the Vatican, Fox News, any church without gay or women ministers and believe in the devil, anything that espouses personal responsibility, limited government, and things that scare Europeans are all the same beast. Just because they believe it, doesn't make it true. I am no racist, I do not murder gays, I won't force quadriplegics to go to work. Just like not all Left wingers favor nationalization of industries, disabling the military or police, or abortion-on-demand. Glenn Beck, right wing radio guy, believes that disenfranchisement of citizenry of all types, Left, Right, Bi, and Non Partisan will lead to revolution. He's just a glass half empty sort of guy about this subject.

You want to see a real nut who I would love to see his civil rights get trampled on over and over again. Google Alex Jones, Google FEMA Camps, check out prisonplanet.com. I am not worried about this 9/11 Truther starting the revolution, he's too busy making money off of the racket. I am worried about the posters to his websites, and the callers whenever he is featured on Coast-to-Coast AM, the late night conspiracy theory radio program. I don't think the Left or the Right would be glad for enough of these guys to get together with stuff that explodes.

Great Thread
Full disclosure: I am a social conservative, believe in the free market. I am a Kounter-Revolutionary 4 life after reading about the Archipelago. I'll be going to the camps eventually, lol
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on April 06, 2009, 02:14:38 pm
Just want to dispute this point. Which workers are laid off in economic instability, farmers or secretarys? Miners or bankers? And what can we more do without, food or ipods? Houses or movies?
It's not that people stop eating.  It's that the price farmers get for food goes down due to changes in the exchange rate, even as consumers pay the same price.

Read Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand, for a rationale that wealth in and of itself is not evil, but many of the pursuits of it are. Read about how producing something is good, and that it is also the goal of those capitalists that the real world loves to hate. Read about how picking yourself up, and DOING something with your live is way more moral than forcing others to support those who won't support themselves, through ignorance, greed, or whatever. I am no Objectivist, but the most important part, in my honest opinion, is the explanation that money is not evil. If you can read just one part, read that one. And maybe about how faith and force the the biggest sticks to beat honest producers over the head with. Surprising how many communists and anarchists would agree with that last sentence, eh?

But this one is a very difficult read for me. Rand suffers from verbal diarrhea. I get it, oppressive nationalization of other peoples' creations is akin to human sacrifice (ahem, "eat the rich"), you don't need to write another 20-page essay on it!

Reading Ayn Rand made me want to slit my wrists.  The character she cast as heroic struck me as a shallow egoist whom I was much more afraid of then the villains.

IMHO, her entire premise is a load of shit because the world doesn't boil down to a simple producers vs. oppressors like she portrays.  If it did then we would all be, ironically enough, communists.
Title: plus there's only two characters in any Rand book, Rand and Generic Strawman
Post by: Bromor Neckbeard on April 06, 2009, 06:38:41 pm
The whole "rape is just peachy, as long as the rapist is rich, tall, rich, handsome, and rich" aspect to both The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, as well as the insularity of the Objectivist movement ("great literature is exactly what is on the approved list and nothing else"), has pretty much turned me entirely off anything Objectivist-affiliated, and brings me no end of trouble with fellow small-L libertarians.

Rather than reading Rand, if you want something along those lines that's not utterly psychologically repulsive, you're really better off reading Nietzsche.  He's where Rand got most of her ideas in the first place.  He's too dense for me, personally, but he's far less toxic than Rand.

I can second The Gulag Archipelago and Mao:  The Unknown Story, though.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: Little on April 07, 2009, 12:57:09 am
As yggiz said, revolution is for extreme situations, not for being jealous of others who happen to be born into a better family. The day when the government openly carts people they don't like off in black vans will be the day I start drinking whiskey and saving the bottles. Just because people are rich doesn't mean you have to depose them out of envy.

Besides, another good point raised by yggiz, revolutions tend to go horribly wrong somehow. You have to be in it for something that is relatively pure of hate, because bringing hate together with revolution ideas and winning is running down the road of something worse then what you were freeing the people from.

Look at the Reign of Terror(1794) in France. That started out decently.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: mainiac on April 07, 2009, 09:40:58 pm
Is it nothing but jealously to object to the injustice?

Don't get me wrong, I think capitalism is worthwhile in the balance.  But labeling it's opponents as purely driven by emotion is exactly the sort of pejorative logic that creates the ideologies of permanent revolution and counter revolution.  Once we eschew understanding those we disagree with, there's nothing left but to beat each other with sticks.
Title: Re: "Eat The Rich, I Have Their Mailing Addresses"
Post by: beorn080 on April 08, 2009, 12:52:52 am

If you want classless greed pick up a newspaper. Read about robberies and gang shootings and all that. As much as an excuse for class warfare that the AIG guys or Paris Hilton is, they aren't leaving anyone bleeding to death in a gutter.

Revolution is not idle talk. Crazy extremists call for it in the developed nations, sure. Crazy Facists, Anarchists, and Communists. Crazy will be crazy no matter who is in charge. The Left gets into a tizzy claiming the Right in America is sewing the seeds of it with all their gun talk and criticism of Obama. They think that Rush Limbaugh, Fred Phelps, the KKK, the Vatican, Fox News, any church without gay or women ministers and believe in the devil, anything that espouses personal responsibility, limited government, and things that scare Europeans are all the same beast. Just because they believe it, doesn't make it true. I am no racist, I do not murder gays, I won't force quadriplegics to go to work. Just like not all Left wingers favor nationalization of industries, disabling the military or police, or abortion-on-demand. Glenn Beck, right wing radio guy, believes that disenfranchisement of citizenry of all types, Left, Right, Bi, and Non Partisan will lead to revolution. He's just a glass half empty sort of guy about this subject.

You want to see a real nut who I would love to see his civil rights get trampled on over and over again. Google Alex Jones, Google FEMA Camps, check out prisonplanet.com. I am not worried about this 9/11 Truther starting the revolution, he's too busy making money off of the racket. I am worried about the posters to his websites, and the callers whenever he is featured on Coast-to-Coast AM, the late night conspiracy theory radio program. I don't think the Left or the Right would be glad for enough of these guys to get together with stuff that explodes.

Great Thread
Full disclosure: I am a social conservative, believe in the free market. I am a Kounter-Revolutionary 4 life after reading about the Archipelago. I'll be going to the camps eventually, lol
No, AIG and Fannie and Freddie Mac and all the other corrupt banks and other money movers don't directly kill people. They merely destroy people's mortgage's, causing people to lose their homes, wipe out savings and retirement funds, causing those people to work harder to earn back their hard earned money, while the executives who ruined the companies get bonuses paid with MY tax dollars.

I don't have a problem with stupid rich people specifically. If I had Hilton money or some other trust fund type deal, I probably would purchase stupid stuff and forget to wear underwear whilst clubbing in a kilt. They are relatively harmless simply because they are too stupid to use their money destructively, and thats ok.

My problem is with rich people who deliberately run the system into the ground while using the newly gained assets to leverage their own money in unsustainable ways, then get out when they know the market can't deal with it anymore. That goes for the gas companies that "slowly" went from 1.10 in 2002 for a gallon of gas, up to 4.00 a gallon in 08, back down to 1.50 in under 4 months into 09, to the mortgage companies that gave incredibly stupid mortgages out and ruined the value of ALL real estate, to the bankers who lie about their bottom lines, to congressmen who let bonuses get paid and use the outrage to cover up their other schemes, to anyone else who uses other people's money to make their own money and leave everyone else broke. Those people deserve to have all their assets seized and handed a card board box in Anchorage, AL.

To recap, stupid rich celebrities = funny and relatively harmless.
Smart rich executives who get greedy = evil bastard and potential homeless guy in the frozen armpit of America. (As opposed to the humid dank armpit of America, New Jersey, my home state.)