Alright! Hammered out a few examples, here are the stats and some descriptions.
Base: What Aquizzar posted. Here for completeness.
#-2 M-3 F-5 R-5 Z-5 W-1 S-5 A-5 T-5 I-5 B-5 L-5
Bigguy: Stereotypical "Big guy" build:
#-2 M-3 F-8 R-2 Z-7 W-1 S-7 A-3 T-7 I-3 B-5 L-3
Skinnyguy: Stereotypical "Skinny guy" build:
#-2 M-3 F-3 R-8 Z-3 W-1 S-2 A-10 T-2 I-7 B-3 L-7
Sniper: Stereotypical gun 'em from far, far away build.
#-2 M-3 F-1 R-10 Z-5 W-1 S-3 A-7 T-4 I-3 B-2 L-10
Brawler: Stereotypical rush in and smash someone build
#-2 M-3 F-10 R-1 Z-7 W-1 S-7 A-4 T-4 I-2 B-8 L-2
Linesman: Stereotypical stand there and don't die build
#-2 M-2 F-6 R-6 Z-6 W-1 S-7 A-7 T-8 I-2 B-1 L-3
Scout: Stereotypical run real fast build
#-2 M-5 F-2 R-8 Z-4 W-1 S-3 A-10 T-2 I-8 B-1 L-5
Rambo: An attempt at a hero or leader character's base stats. Focus was on attacking. Note that the above builds sum to 51 in stats; Rambo sums to 55, as he's goddamn Rambo.
#-2 M-3 F-7 R-7 Z-5 W-2 S-4 A-3 T-3 I-7 B-8 L-4
I'm not too confident with these results. The only heartening thing is that I had trouble fitting within my goals and the limiting equations that I had. I'll post the equations if requested, but there are some... inconsitencies, let's say? Definitely not as well thought out as I'd like.
Also! I tried to keep most of these normalized on a 10 pt. scale, with 10 or so as the limit of human ability. Z, M, #, and W were notable exceptions.
Asheron:EVERYTHING could be Op.
Which reminds me, Aqizzar, what would normal weapon range be? 18? Because the problem is People move slowly and if its like 48 you could kill them so fast.
Edit:
Dwarf Marksman
#-2
M-3
F-4
R-5
Z-1
W-1
S-5
A-4
T-6
I-4
B-5
L-5
Weapons
Knife
Options
Crossbow
or
Dwarf One Shot Rifle
or
Dwarf Machine Gun
Iron Armor
Ogre Brew
or
Hero's Brew
or
Titan's Brew
Elite Marksman
#-2
M-3
F-5
R-6
Z-1
W-1
S-5
A-4
T-6
I-4
B-6
L-5
Weapons
Knife
Options
Crossbow
or
Dwarf One Shot Rife
or
Dwarf Machine Gun
or
Dwarf Mini Cannon
Iron Armor
Ogre Brew
or
Hero's Brew
or
Titan's Brew
Aqizzar:
I see how this would work. I have some hope that there would be some actions that take higher stats.
For example, a unit with a really high B might be able to charge through enemy lines, provided it has a good F stat, too, possibly wounding a unit or causing a unit to panic. This would only become viable with a B of ~9,10. Of course, this would only tactically work with other units to help clean up the mess, as the unit with high B would now (probably) be surrounded. This would solve the diminishing returns problem, while still making a unit with one very high stat not overpowering.
In any case, I'll take the following scale: 1-3 is neglectful, 4-7 is normal, 8-9 is devoted, and 10 represents lifelong training. Heroes could have things higher than 10.
E: Ran through some more examples, using some retooled min/max equations, and the squares of the stats as costs. Here they are:
Base: What Aquizzar posted. Here for completeness.
#-2 M-3 F-5 R-5 Z-5 W-1 S-5 A-5 T-5 I-5 B-5 L-5 $-215
Bigguy: Stereotypical "Big guy" build:
#-2 M-3 F-6 R-2 Z-1 W-2 S-7 A-3 T-7 I-4 B-5 L-3 $-215
Skinnyguy: Stereotypical "Skinny guy" build:
#-2 M-3 F-2 R-6 Z-1 W-1 S-4 A-6 T-4 I-6 B-3 L-7 $-217
Gunner: Stereotypical gun 'em from far away build
#-2 M-3 F-2 R-8 Z-1 W-1 S-2 A-5 T-3 I-5 B-2 L-8 $-214
Brawler: Stereotypical rush in and smash someone build
#-2 M-3 F-7 R-1 Z-1 W-1 S-6 A-4 T-6 I-4 B-6 L-3 $-214
Linesman: Stereotypical stand there and don't die build
#-2 M-2 F-4 R-4 Z-1 W-2 S-4 A-6 T-7 I-3 B-7 L-3 $-213
Scout: Stereotypical run real fast build
#-2 M-4 F-3 R-3 Z-1 W-1 S-3 A-6 T-4 I-7 B-4 L-7 $-215
Rambo: An attempt at a hero or leader character's base stats. Focus was on a general hero character.
#-2 M-3 F-6 R-6 Z-1 W-2 S-7 A-5 T-6 I-6 B-7 L-4 $-301
I think that this is better, in terms of unit balance, but I'm disheartened by how increasing the lower stats seemed to come "for free," considering the overall cost. That said, the retooled equations are looking better and better. But maybe that's just the cold talking.
Aqizzar, you might be heartened to know that the # is one of the stats that I left up to unit type. The other one is Z.
Big Post Ahoy! Answers some questions. I've been writing this on-and-off all day, so it might meander a little...
Preliminary Army Design and Components
Statline
Exactly that. All the base stats - Actions, Movement, Fighting Skill, Ranged Skill, Size, Wounds, Strength, Agility, Toughness, Initiative, Logic, Bravery.
Model Type
This is reflection of the model's basic construction, and mostly interacts with the Targeting Type of Attacks (see Elaborations below). This is different from elements and such, below. There's three types (so far)-
Critical - Living creatures mostly. Essentially any being with organs or critical parts (hence the name) which, however tough, could still be laid low by a lucky hit. This is the default type, cheapest, and the attack system assumes this type before being modified by anything.
Solid - Robots, zombies, snarling beasts, and any other creature that still has distinct parts, but is single minded enough to keep fighting despite grievous injury. For instance, if a human loses an arm, he might not die but he'll certainly be out of the fight. This refers to creatures that needs to be hacked apart to go down. This doesn't confer any particular durability - the classic flimsy skeleton would be a Solid Model with low toughness.
Amorphous - Slimes, ghosts, swarms of insects, anything that not only doesn't have vulnerable organs, but doesn't even have enough structure to hit properly. Amorphous Models are largely immune to things like bullets or sword swings, but are extra susceptible to explosions and other broad area effects.
Model Nature
This is where elements, origins, resistances and vulnerabilities and so forth go. Typically, this effects the size of the model's Toughness roll. Rather than distinct sets, strengths and weaknesses to attack effects will probably be set individually, with the default being leaving the attack unmodified.
Base Use Type
What the Attack actually is, especially whether it's a Close Combat or Ranged attack. More could probably be done with this, but I haven't thought of much yet. A few types I can think of-
Basic Hand to Hand - Most weapons used in model on model brawls, whatever the other factors. Requires engaging the target in the same hex and therefore being open to counter attack and other attendencies.
Long Hand to Hand - Really long weapons like spears and pikes, used to attack targets in other hexes or up on walls. Generally, attacks that use the Fighting Skill but don't lead to a full on melee.
Basic Ranged - Shootin' stuff. Needs no explanation.
Indirect Ranged - Not sure if this should count. Ignoring Terrain might work better as a separate effect, but this does at least cover weapons that can't be used for called shots on specific models.
Target Effect
This describes the general effect of the attack, rather than it's specific nature. (see Elaborations below)
Focused - Bullets, lasers, arrows, spears, knives, anything that puts all it's damage in a small spot.
Area - Most melee weapons, shotguns, ballistas, catapults, stuff that damages over a broad location.
Explosive - Just what it says. It's hard to think of a close combat explosive, but the option is there.
Flowing - Gas, flamethrowers, engulfing, more than Area damage, actually spreading over the target.
Damage Nature
Ditto for all the elemental stuff from models. They won't actually be the same, but so long as they're all referenced on a table together it doesn't matter.
Range Index
Only applicable to Ranged attacks obviously. The vagaries of weapons being what they are, a simple Distance/Hit modifier isn't enough. Stealing a page from Inquisitor, there will be several different tables of distance vs accuracy types to choose from. For instance, a sniper rifle is unwieldy at close range but accurate at long range, while a throwing axe is accurate (enough) but just drops to the ground after some distance.
Accuracy Bonus
Rolling to hit is already covered by the model's two hitting stats, but it's conceivable that some weapons would be harder or easier to hit with. I'm not committed to keeping this, maybe rolling it into the Index.
Base Strength and Bonus Die
The all important die roll that gets added when attacking. Base Strength is taken if a weapon is supposed to cause the same damaged regardless of who's holding it (like most Ranged Weapons), as opposed to Model Strength. Each prorates it's cost differently depending on the Strength of the model it's given to.
I haven't entirely decided how Defenses should work, but I think this is a good starting point.
Basic Level Defenses
This is the Defense a model uses against all Attacks, regardless of other factors. Units must assign every model one and only one Basic Level Defense, be it a battlesuit, a magic cape, or bare skin.
Toughness and Agility Bonuses
Basic Defenses must have bonus dice for each of these. Optimally, the point cost would be based on the total, encouraging a balance. Low or high scores in both is possible, being very low or very high priced respectively.
Defense Nature
Same as above. Typically, this effects the size of an attacker's Strength bonus die.
Extra Level Defenses
These are appended on top of the Basic Level, if the form of extra bonuses that are only used in certain circumstances. For example, a heavy shield could add a Toughness bonus in Close Combat, and a cloaking field could add an Agility bonus against Ranged attacks. (see Elaborations below)
As the name implies, this is where you define anything that doesn't fit elsewhere, which causes a model or unit to behave differently from the expected default. Probably endless, but I can think of a few typical Special Rules.
Leadership Status
As I described before, this will be appended to a unit, or more often a specific model (or models), which reduces the size of the Logic or Bravery die to roll under the unit/model's base stat. Logic and Bravery are separate bonuses, but for extra cost could be rolled into one model upgrade.
Model Mind
By default, the game assumes every model is a mentally competent and coherent enough being to make it's own decisions, however well or poorly, in the interests of the army at large without someone to watch over it. There will of course be exceptions like riding mounts, war beasts, golems, recalcitrant slaves, and any number of other creeps that must be accompanied or instructed in some way in order to act in concert with the army, and who will go off on some kind of tangent if left alone.
Different Deployment
By default, when the game begins, the Game Master says what areas the players can set up their armies in. These rules would afford the player more options. Many different ways of handling this.
Different Movement
By default, the game assumes that every model is slogging it's way along the ground on the functional equivalent of feet. Plenty of other methods exist, flying, hopping, swimming, whatever.
Some of that stuff doesn't make much sense on it's own. Here's some explanations of how all the different Types and Natures should interact.
Model and Target Types
As said, the Types have more to do with physics than origin. Effects-
Critical models take the normal damage dice from all types, being the assumed default.
Solid models resist damage from Focused and Flowing attacks, lacking weak points to minute strikes
Focused and Area weapons usually pass right through Amorphous targets, but they are more susceptible to Explosive and Flowing damage.
Natures and Contests
The typical contest between an Attack and it's target involves the Model and Target Types, the three different natures of the Attack, Defense, and Model, and the four different bonus dice. Extra Level Defense Natures might even complicate things more, but I haven't settled that yet. Typical combat plays out like this-
First, the aggressor has to make a "To Hit" Contest roll, his hitting skill, modified by Range Index (if applicable), against the opponent's Agility, with it's bonus stat from it's Defense, and modified by terrain (if applicable).
Then comes the chunky part, comparing Natures for the "To Wound" Contest roll. The opponent's Basic Level Defense modifies the aggressor's Strength bonus (not sure what to do with Extra Levels yet). The opponent's Model Nature modifies it's own Toughness roll. Both are determined by the Nature of the aggressor's weapon.
These four elements (Models, Attacks, Defenses, Specials) constitute the Army Catalog, and the building blocks of units. Units are made up of at least one Model, one basic Defense, and one close combat Attack. That's just to avoid any weird situations like a model that can't fight - while perfectly applicable to vehicles and the like, that sort of thing is Way In The Future, behind making sure the damn game works at all. The actual Unit creation rules will be a full chapter in themselves, and not really necessary until after I test things out with my example armies. The Army List is all the completed Units, and any special non-unit-dependent army-wide rules, but I haven't decided if I want that, and it's WITF anyway. Then of course the Army is whatever the player decides to field from the list.
That's where I stand. Now I need some tables of Attack and Model/Defense Natures, more tables for Bravery and Logic rolls, decide what to do with Extra Level Defenses, make Range Indexes, some simple terrain rules... Then just throw some placeholder numbers into my experimental example armies, and a playable V0.01 will be go. Not playable in any meaningful sense, but enough to make sure the combat system actually works.
It's obvious the time has come to stop kicking around theoretically and make some working examples. I already sketched out some example armies, designed to use a lot of different mechanics, and I've so far been building ideas around what I think I need to make the examples work. Then I just turn that around into a more general system. However, I haven't assigned any hard numbers to things yet, so I'm making this up as I type it.
Let's start with a Dwarven Gunner. First, he needs a statline, a model, and a model nature.
Model Name: Dwarven Gunner
#-2 M-2 F-4 R-5 Z-1 W-1 S-5 A-4 T-6 I-4 B-6 L-4
Model Type: Critical
Model Nature: Mortal, Flesh
I just pulled "Mortal" and "Flesh" off the top of my head, signifying him as a living dude with all that implies. Next, he needs at least one Close Combat attack, so if stuck in melee he can fight and not fuck up the system.
Attack Name: "Fists"
Use Type: Basic H2H
Target Effect: Area
Damage Nature: Blunt
Range Index: N/A
Strength: Base + 1d3
# of Hits: 2
I forgot to mention in the other post that Attacks should have some number of hits per use, probably with point cost rising geometrically. Anyway, that's a basic attack, but as a Gunner, we'll make a ranged attack.
Attack Name: Magbow
Use Type: Basic Ranged
Target Effect: Focused
Damage Nature: Piercing
Range Index: Rifle
Strength: 5 + 1d6
# of Hits: 1
Where "Rifle" is some predefined set of range/accuracy modifiers reflecting a rifle-like weapon. I'll need to type those up too. The listings for "Strength" reflect whether the weapon uses the model's own strength (most H2H attacks) or if it's strength is independent of the model using it (most Ranged attacks). Now, a Defense.
Defense Name: Chainmail
Type: Basic Level
Defense Nature: Metal, Open
Toughness Bonus: +1d4
Agility Bonus: +1d4
Simple enough. Defenses probably shouldn't confer a base stat in themselves, like Attacks can. Just for the sake of example, let's throw in an Extra Level.
Defense Name: Antimagnet Field
Type: Extra Level, Only VS Ranged
Defense Nature: Field, Energy
Toughness Bonus: N/A
Agility Bonus: +1d4
Extra Level Defenses don't have to have a Toughness and Agility bonus, and should never work against all kinds of Attacks or else it'd be Basic Level. Anyway, that's everything that Dwarven Gunners really need. But that doesn't show off all the stuff that needs explaining, so I'll make some back-up.
Model Name: War Crocodile
#-2 M-2 F-5 R-0 Z-1 W-2 S-6 A-3 T-7 I-3 B-8 L-1
Model Type: Solid
Model Nature: Mortal
Attack Name: "Croc Jaws"
Use Type: Basic H2H
Target Effect: Area
Damage Nature: Gore
Range Index: N/A
Strength: Base + 1d8
# of Hits: 1
Defense Name: "Croc Hide"
Type: Basic Level
Defense Nature: Hard Flesh
Toughness Bonus: +1d6
Agility Bonus: +1d4
Fuck War Dogs, we're going to the big leagues. This is most of why I didn't want Attacks and Defenses to represent some kind of equipment/inventory system, because there's plenty of ways Attacks and Defenses can represent something a model can't pick up or drop. At any rate, the War Croc isn't finished, because it needs to think like a crocodile. One asspull later-
Special Name: "War Animal Mind"
Special Type: Activity Limit
Condition: must be in Unit with other Default Minds
Consequence: Normal Activity
Null Consequence: Random Movement, Engage All Units
Bit of mental pseudocode meaning "keep models with non-war animal minds in the same unit, or the crocs go berserk on their own". Speaking of Specials, those Dwarven Gunners will want a squad leader, so let's make that too.\
Special Name: Squad Leader
Special Type: Leadership Bonus (Bravery/Logic), One Model Designation
Condition: Designated Model must be in Unit, Only Taken Once
Consequence: Reduce Bravery/Logic Rolls 1 die size
Null Consequence: Inapplicable
Here, if the Special is taken for the Unit, one model must be distinguished as the Squad Leader. So long as he's alive and in the squad, any time the squad has to pass a Bravery or Logic Check roll (example: roll a 1d10 under the Unit's most common Bravery stat), the dice rolled will be knocked down a size (same example: roll a 1d8 instead of 1d10).
However, we're still not done. Models, Attacks, Defenses, and Specials don't do anything floating about in the ether, they need to be combined into a Unit, and this isn't as simple as just saying who gets what (though it can be for a one-model unit). Unit construction is by no means settled, and point values even less so, but a Unit card might look like this-
Unit Name: Gunner Squad
Members:
Dwarven Gunner w/ "Fists", Magbow, Chainmail
War Crocodile w/ "Croc Jaws", "Croc Hide", "War Animal Mind"
Numbers: 5-10 Dwarven Gunners, 0-10 War Crocodiles
Costs: +10 Points per Dwarven Gunner, +12 Points per War Crocodile
Options:
Squad Leader: +10 Points, Dwarven Gunner only
Antimagnet Field: +5 Points per Model
And that's everything I can think of for how to design and lay out all the constituent parts of Units and then combine them into something resembling a coherent squad of dudes. Of course, there's much more to be done.
Holy crap. Well, I hope that at least starts to clear up how I'm approaching this. And the last (first) question-
Just a note: You've neglected to mention any drawbacks to being a solid-type character. It seems to me that there should be some--pain exists for a reason. Perhaps a general penalty in defensive rolls?
The drawback is that Solid models cost more, because they're harder to kill. Point Value is where everything will eventually have to balance out, but the only way to really gauge that is to throw some example armies at each other, and doling out approximate values after I see what works and what doesn't.
I said several weeks ago that I'd come back to this in a week. Obviously I didn't, but I haven't been idle either. With all this talk lately of game design and documentation, I'm trying to kick this back into gear. Where my schedule allows of course, but whatever. Enough excuses, I want my game to actually work.
One problem is that this thread is the closest I have to a design document. I need to consolidate stuff somewhere other than inside my head, or at least gather some hyperlinks to index everything. The problem is, I write notes best when I'm describing stuff like a conversation, so I have to inflict my half-baked ideas on other people. Or I just feel weird writing notes to myself. Ergo, here's where I think I stand-
Core Elements
Stat breakdown itself, the dice used, the stat comparison model, the turn-by-turn activities, the various actions (like moving and fighting) units can perform, probably the morale and target selection charts, and all the other little things that make up the basic game engine. These can be altered as the Game Master and players wish, but gameplay will then be fundamentally different.
Required Additional Elements
Army element Nature chart, terrain types, characteristics for Specials, the pointcost algorithm, the weapon range/accuracy table, and other crunchy bits that should be swapped around and altered to reflect the style of the game. In other words, everything that can be changed as the players wish without much trouble, but which are necessary for the game to be playable.
Optional Flavor Elements
External rules and complications that make the game play differently, but are not necessary to playing it at all. For example, wounding effects, "campaign" effects, an extra bitset describing Unit elements as items that can be gained and lost, "magic" actions too esoteric to be covered by basic Unit creation, greater rules for single-model units to make the game more RPG-like, etc.
First thing's first, I want to differentiate my game from Games Workshop's products, and cut out some redundancy. To that end, the Fighting and Ranged Skills are gone. I'm not completely settled with this new setup, since it wraps a lot of activity into fewer measures, but I figure it's better to start simple and expand if necessary instead of adding encumbrance first. For clarity, the Statline works like this-
# M Z W S T A I L B
Actions (#) are the number of things (moving, shooting, attacking, whatever) that a Model can perform in one turn.
Movement (M) is the number of map Hexes a Model can cover with one Action.
Size (Z) is physical scale, used for determining how many Models can fit in one Hex. Also imposes high and low boundaries on Wounds, Strength, Toughness, and Agility.
Wounds (W, and the name should probably be changed) is just how many times a model can lose a Defense roll and still fight. Expanded rules can cover whether partially wounded Models will behave any differently.
Strength (S) governs base hitting power with some attacks, especially in melee. Will have other uses in expanded systems, like extricating from rough terrain or carrying equipment.
Toughness (T) governs the Model's base ability to shrug off damage. Simple enough.
Agility (A) is the base for both landing and avoiding melee attacks (mostly), along with expanded rules like rough terrain or hidden movement (maybe).
Initiative (I) serves two big purposes - determining the order that Units move each turn, and the base for landing and avoiding (most) ranged Attacks. The idea being that shooting over a distance, or not being shot, is more a matter of awareness than raw dexterity, but I'm not totally committed to this.
Logic (L) mostly determines how a Model will react to the actions of other Units, such as opportunity fire, acting outside of orders when necessary, and filling other holes in the game's own logic, as well as altering other actions like target selection and panicking.
Bravery (B) also covers actions and reactions, especially launching and absorbing melee attacks. Naturally, also governs when and how a Unit panics, which will probably be encompassed in a phase outside of normal activity.
For more clarity, here again is the Statline the stat comparison, morale rules, and so forth will assume as "normal"-
#-2 M-2 Z-1 W-2 S-5 T-5 A-5 I-5 L-5 B-5
This is still subject to change, especially the W-2 which assumes that the game will be played with some kind of wounded-models extra rule as "standard". If not, W-1 would be more sensible.
Dice, breakfast of champions. The game uses all of the following dice-
D2, D3, D4, D5, D6, D8, D10, D12
Each of these sizes are referred to as Die Steps, because the die an action (like an Attack or Defense) rolls can be Stepped "Up" or "Down". Up is always bigger, Down is always smaller, regardless of whether a bigger or smaller die is a good or bad thing (as will be evident later).
Because it's possible for the combination of base stats and bonus dice to wind up making success or failure guaranteed, this necessitates an expanding-dice rule. Namely, 1's and maxes. If a Bonus Die turns up a 1, the action (whatever it is) automatically fails, even if the base+1 result would be successful anyway. If the die turns up it's highest number (i.e. 8 on a D8) the die is rolled again and added to the result. So a 4+D2 could still beat a 6+D6, provided you roll a whole buch of 2's. The "1's are automatic failures" rule does not apply in this case, only on the first roll.
Obviously, that's a lot of freaking dice to keep track of in a wargame, and is one of many areas that computer assistance will be hugely important.
This area still needs some hammering out, and panicking units are completely untouched. Way back in June (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=36470.msg599760#msg599760) I made a list of checks for charging, picking targets, and other activities, but I want to replace check-numbers with rolling a die under the relevant stat (i.e. different size dice representing the difficulty). Bear in mind that these Check Dice are different from the Bonus Dice described above, and are not affected by the rules for 1's and maxes.
What I'm thinking is, at the end of each turn, every Unit must test (against Bravery) whether it panics (with the chance such that an undamaged Unit would never fail). At the beginning of the next turn, the controlling player would have to give them some panic-relevant action, be it running away or recovering and reforming. The farther away from running away screaming the action is, the harder the test against Logic to pull it off (moar tables).
For that matter, a lot of other stuff does too, namely melee combat rules. Which I have none of. Obviously, there should be some kind of effect from charging, normally an advantage of extra fighting impetus, including Attacks with special charging rules. The defender should get some effect as well from special effects like terrain and defenses. Also, rules regarding how the models interact over hexes, like piling into a space, and whether there's enough room for everybody and so forth.
In other words, I'm a lot farther from a playable game than I thought I'd be, but I think I can get there soon. At that point, I need to start consolidating all of this into a single Preliminary Rulebook of some kind, and I'll probably start a new thread for Version 0.1 and player testing. There's a lot more stuff I should be covering right now that I can't think of, but I want to post this now while I have time.
At any rate, the Ængine is back in business. Commentary is always welcome.