Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: Entropy on February 07, 2007, 03:01:00 pm

Title: Cement for rewalling
Post by: Entropy on February 07, 2007, 03:01:00 pm
Bloat229 mentions quicklime - essentially burn limestone in the kiln, mix with sand and water, and you have cement.  Perhaps making cement would be a new job at a mason's workshop.

You get three things of cement for one unit of each quicklime, sand, and water.  These will go 'rotten' like food if not used - they will harden into a stone.  Of course this means any job using cement would have to be a priority job.

Cement and a block makes a smooth wall.  It could be treated like a statue for a season (not load bearing and destroyable until it properly hardens) but will then just be like any other smooth wall.

Title: Re: Cement for rewalling
Post by: qwip on February 08, 2007, 11:38:00 am
hmm... I like the 1-yr curing concept. It removes the possible abuse of quick-walling during a seige.
In another thread, I had suggested a high material requirement (5 blocks) and a long completion time to prevent additional siege unbalances.
I suspect that many would argue that the unbreakable raised bridge already makes sieges too easy to block and that the re-walling concept would be more likely to be used to beautify rooms that can't be smoothed because of ore or gem locations.

We'll have to wait until this request falls in Toady's short list.

Title: Re: Cement for rewalling
Post by: Entropy on February 08, 2007, 03:50:00 pm
I think using 5 blocks and a long construction time is unreasonable.  That is a lot of stone for one piece of wall and you will have a lot of problems with dwarfs giving up to go get food or drink or sleep before completion.

The cement will take time and effort: uses up a thing of limestone, needs a kiln job, needs sand, needs a trip to a well with a bucket, and a mason job.  Then you have limited time to use it so you can’t stockpile cement for mass building.  Plus it makes logical sense to use cement as a mortar to stick stone back together to form a solid wall.

I think people will mostly use rewalling to replace areas where they mined out minerals or gems as well as to make a support that isn’t going to be destroyed by a tantrum, potentially causing mass death and destruction.  Not to mention repairing the damage done by the (hopefully) soon to be implemented mining units of invaders.

The long cure period is both realistic (primitive cements take a long time to harden fully) and keeping people from abusing it in some way.  Perhaps one year is too long, but 2 full seasons would be good - way too long for quick siege defense but reasonable for repairing damage done by a siege, to tidy up oddly shaped rooms, or provide a surface for an engraver to work on.

Edit:  Since you might need a lot to repair siege damage it might be nice if you could then buy quicklime from the human caravan or something.

[ February 08, 2007: Message edited by: Entropy ]

Title: Re: Cement for rewalling
Post by: Mechanoid on February 08, 2007, 04:42:00 pm
Great idea.

Now all we need are metal plates for walls to slow those damn seige miners and we're set...

Title: Re: Cement for rewalling
Post by: Sowelu on February 09, 2007, 03:45:00 am
As an intermediate between just stone, and actual metal plates:  Rebar.  >.>  Seriously, rebar is all awesome.  Maybe it's higher tech-level than the dwarves should have...but I wouldn't want to be the goblin that has to dig through a cement and rebar wall.
Title: Re: Cement for rewalling
Post by: Gauteamus on February 09, 2007, 07:28:00 am
Rebar would be awesome :-)
Or dwarves could even use Pycrete for rewalling (in frozen maps only). The Project Habbakkuk makes me laugh every time!
Title: Re: Cement for rewalling
Post by: Momaw on February 11, 2007, 03:35:00 am
Pycrete was a clever idea, but you'd not use it for indoor construction. The ambient temperature underground is above freezing, and I don't think dwarves have figured out refrigeration yet.

Having re-walling efforts take a lot of material (5 blocks) doesn't really make a lot of sense. When a dwarf is mining, there's only a /chance/ of getting /a/ stone from each tile of mining. I believe the implication is that the removal of small loose material is abstracted, and all that remains is larger, sound stones.

Requiring cement to build walls would only serve to emphasize the fact that it is NOT required to build other things that would logically require it, like bridges.

A different approach would be that you could make blocks from cement. These cement blocks would be made several at a time, and require time to cure, after which they are treated like regular "gray" stone blocks.

Title: Re: Cement for rewalling
Post by: rylen on February 12, 2007, 09:46:00 am
Another way to make rewalling difficult but fair is to require the Alchemy building.  It makes some sense, the concrete must be properly blended and keeps rewalling from happening early on.  It's also a reward for a building that currently isn't doing much.

Rylen

Title: Re: Cement for rewalling
Post by: Capntastic on February 12, 2007, 06:19:00 pm
Honestly, I think rewalling should require nothing more than a stone and a dwarf to build it.  If a 3x3 workshop can be made from a single stone, surely a 1x1 wall can be.

Reinforcements should take a metal bar and a rock.   Nothing too complicated; bear in mind you'll probably have to rewall huge areas.

Title: Re: Cement for rewalling
Post by: JT on February 12, 2007, 06:35:00 pm
Yeah, rewalling will probably only be used in limited circumstances where players have made accidents when mining.  You can do this with floodgates, but using a floodgate as a wall is like taking apart a chair to repair a hole in a door: you're using a complicated object when a simple one should do (in the chair case, you should just use a piece of wood).

When rewalling rolls around, I hope Toady goes for the full deal, including filling in channels and reclaiming land from the river.

If you reclaim land all the way across the river, he could even make it deadly.  Damming the river would trigger an overflow event -- like a normal flood, but head-high instead of waist high, and any doors and floodgates the floodwaters touched would be destroyed.  Ouch.

Walling across the river would need some sort of additional functionality to help water breach the walls, however...

[ February 12, 2007: Message edited by: JT ]

Title: Re: Cement for rewalling
Post by: Gakidou on February 13, 2007, 12:19:00 am
I just hope that rewalling allows us to  expand the mountain out. Nothing says overly complicated Dwarven engineering schemes like building a rock dome over the Elven forests in order to protect their trees from the Sun's deadly rays. Hey, what are all those Elves doing coming at us with Bows; are they throwing an archery tournament in order to thank us?