Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: Sergius on April 27, 2008, 11:04:00 pm

Title: Better scrolling
Post by: Sergius on April 27, 2008, 11:04:00 pm
Probably not a really big change, but I'd love if we got rid of that 10-tile fixed scrolling that just gets messed at the edges. How about some kind of acceleration, start with one tile and accelerate as you keep the arrow keys pressed?

I know some think it's superficial, but most of my fortress layouts are very rigidly based on a 10x10 grid, I'd like to be able to get rid of that and make more "organic" looking fortresses and if I could center my viewport at any tile I want and not just multiples of 10.

Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Align on April 28, 2008, 11:08:00 am
Stop holding shift?
Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Derakon on April 28, 2008, 12:21:00 pm
With shift on, scrolling is more than ten squares per scroll. There's no way to do less than ten squares per.
Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Basilisk on April 28, 2008, 01:05:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Align:
<STRONG>Stop holding shift?</STRONG>

That won't affect how far it scrolls, only how far the cursor moves.

Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: umiman on April 28, 2008, 03:14:00 pm
You make the mistake of assuming that because it doesn't work for you, therefore it doesn't work for everyone else.

Even with acceleration, this wouldn't satisfy anyone. Scrolling in this game is such a subjective thing, as you kindly pointed out, because everyone designs their fortresses differently. Suppose we implemented the scrolling acceleration, then what? I hate acceleration. I'd make a big fuss about it. Then someone might suggest, slow down acceleration. Someone else will complain that if you're going to put in acceleration, at least make it accelerate at a proper rate.

Etc. etc. etc.

This is a subjective thing. There's no way to satisfy everyone and everyone is going to get annoyed at it at one time or another but for completely different reasons. Do what everyone else has done, learn to live with it.

Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Derakon on April 28, 2008, 04:27:00 pm
While you have some valid points, there's no need to knock the idea entirely. Acceleration might not be needed (I suspect that being able to scroll a page at a time is plenty fast for most people), but finer control would be helpful. How often do you find that the center of your fortress, which was chosen based on the surrounding terrain, does not center nicely in your screen? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to nudge the screen over one or two squares for your hotkeys?
Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Sergius on April 28, 2008, 08:15:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by umiman:
<STRONG>You make the mistake of assuming that because it doesn't work for you, therefore it doesn't work for everyone else.</STRONG>

I apologize, I didn't want to suggest everyone how to play their own game. Now I understand that 100% of the players here love the scrolling as it is, without the possibility whatsoever to change it.

quote:
<STRONG>Even with acceleration, this wouldn't satisfy anyone. Scrolling in this game is such a subjective thing, as you kindly pointed out, because everyone designs their fortresses differently.</STRONG>

Yes, I know. It's not like we could invent a file called init.txt, where we can enable and disable the options that we like or dislike. I mean, that would be insane! Everyone setting up options like [INTRO:OFF] or [VARIED_GROUND_TILES:NO]... or heavens forbid, [SCROLLING_ACCEL:ON], it would be chaos!

quote:
<STRONG>"Suppose we implemented the scrolling acceleration, then what? I hate acceleration. I'd make a big fuss about it."</STRONG>

I agree wholeheartedly. I apologize, I understand that I must respect your right to not let anyone else play the way they want. That would be very intolerant of us.

quote:
<STRONG>Then someone might suggest, slow down acceleration. Someone else will complain that if you're going to put in acceleration, at least make it accelerate at a proper rate.</STRONG>

Yes, it would be mayhem, the end of the world as we know it. Cats and dogs living together. It's absolutely impossible, that someone could change a flag in the fictional, product of my own deranged mind, *cough*init.txt*cough* file, such as [MIN_ACCEL:1], or [MAX_ACCEL:10] or [ACCEL:OFF], or [SHIFT_SCROLL_MULTIPLIER:3].

quote:
<STRONG>This is a subjective thing. There's no way to satisfy everyone and everyone is going to get annoyed at it at one time or another but for completely different reasons. Do what everyone else has done, learn to live with it.</STRONG>

You're completely right. In fact, I propose a new suggestion, a "final solution" if you want: remove the Suggestions forum altogether. That way, we all will learn to live with it. It's a good thing that Toady didn't program a way to, for example, turn off temperature or cave-ins. And that we all have to use the build in Curses ASCII font... implementing something like a custom tileset would be unthinkable. I might have missed it, but if Toady did code such a mechanism, I vote that we all pressure him immediately to get rid of it, as it is an abomination in the eyes of the Blood God.

Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Sergius on April 28, 2008, 08:25:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Align:
<STRONG>Stop holding shift?</STRONG>

WHAT DO YOU MEAN////

Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Turgid Bolk on April 28, 2008, 09:04:00 pm
I'd like to second/third/whatever the idea of a single-tile scroll button. Doesn't even have to go in the init. Just make it ctrl-arrow, similiar to shift-arrow for fast scrolling. That way it doesn't get in anybody's way if they dislike it.

Sometimes I want to get a certain view of a feature on the map, and this would help greatly. I don't care for the acceleration part of it, but that could be part of the new command to. Tapping it moves one tile, holding it begins to accelerate.

As Sergius says, there's ways of satisfying everyone. We're not all tied to one way of using the interface, or one way of playing the game.

Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: umiman on April 28, 2008, 11:49:00 pm
Derakon: Hmmm, to be fair I didn't consider other options concerning variable settings and the ability to turn it off, but again, such things are quite redundant in the big picture. Perhaps, when in the future, our dear developers have nothing left to do (no bugs to fix, no wars to code, no HFS to create, no rambling whiners to sate), then it would be a good time to work on implementing something as virtually minor as this (and I wouldn't doubt it to, it being in the interface arc).

However, the problem you have in your post is easily rectified, as I understand it, by setting a new position for the gate hotkey. You can also place new "jump points" all over the map. I think the key is [h]... maybe...

Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Derakon on April 29, 2008, 12:38:00 am
The problem with setting hotkeys is that you can only set them to a position that you can scroll to, and as noted, scrolling is a pretty coarse matter currently.

And there's no sense in dismissing a suggestion just because it might be covered in a future development arc. At the very least, we can bring up subtleties that Toady might not think of on his own, like how some people would want to be able to control/turn off acceleration.

Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: umiman on April 29, 2008, 01:16:00 am
Ahh, I have no problem with that though. However, if you notice, my problem was with the way the OP wanted the complete removal and rehaul of the system because it didn't suit his playing style. At that point, nothing was said about control or turning it off, just complete overhaul, hence my initial reply.
Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Krash on April 29, 2008, 01:45:00 am
quote:
However, if you notice, my problem was with the way the OP wanted the complete removal and rehaul of the system because it didn't suit his playing style. At that point, nothing was said about control or turning it off, just complete overhaul, hence my initial reply.

That still doesnt justify your unnecessary kneejerk response, you know.  


I think this scrolling problem might be solved with a new key that moves the screen one tile, say Alt Gr + movement key.

Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Align on April 29, 2008, 08:48:00 am
I don't understand. When I use the arrow or numpad keys, I scroll a single square, and only when I hold shift does it move ten squares at a time.
Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Derakon on April 29, 2008, 09:37:00 am
That's when you're scrolling the cursor, not the view.
Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Align on April 29, 2008, 01:15:00 pm
Suddenly everything makes sense.
A ctrl+scrollbuttan 'careful scroll' would be nice.
Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Fedor on April 30, 2008, 06:59:00 am
I also support more flexible scrolling, for the reasons the OP gave.
Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: apache1990 on April 30, 2008, 09:11:00 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Align:
<STRONG>Suddenly everything makes sense.
A ctrl+scroll-button 'careful scroll' would be nice.</STRONG>

I'd say that's the best solution.

So then we'd have:
Scroll
Scroll much
Scroll little

:D

Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: Sergius on May 01, 2008, 10:57:00 am
Just so you know, since I'm the Original Poster of this thread, I'm gonna take credit for all your ideas.
Title: Re: Better scrolling
Post by: PTTG?? on May 01, 2008, 11:26:00 am
Yes, I think Turgiridgedlidg Bolt has a great point. I also agree with the OP's idea, this would be very useful, although Acceleration might take some time to get used to and I would prefer Ctrl-Arrow = 1 tile. Might I add that Ctrl+Shift+Arrow = Move 100 tiles? Of course, this all probably goes under the Presentation Arc, so it could be a while for Toady One to get to it.

[ May 01, 2008: Message edited by: PTTG?? ]