Bay 12 Games Forum
Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Mafia => Topic started by: Mephansteras on July 27, 2009, 04:38:15 pm
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There was some talk about a beginners mafia game being useful. How much interest is there in one? I think I could run a small, simple no-roles mafia game along with the Paranormal Mafia if there is enough interest.
Of course, that requires us having 8 or so people who'd like to play who don't have much experience with Mafias yet.
Since I have at least some interest, I'll start official sign-ups. I'm only taking players that are generally new to Mafia games. You can have played one or two previous games, but the point of this is for people who feel inexperienced to play and get a feel for things.
For an overview of Mafia games in general, please read chaoticjosh's Tutorial (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=39338.0)
Player List:
- Jim Groovester
- dakarian
- Org
- ToonyMan
- eduren
- BloodBeard
- Vector
- Free Beer
- webadict
Rules:
This will be a Basic Mafia game. I can use some sort of flavor if people would like (Doppelgangers, Werewolves, whatever), the inclusion of Power Roles is up for debate. If I include any, there will only be a few basic power roles.
Roles:
Townsperson: The basic town role. Your goal is to help the town lynch all of the mafia players. You win as long as the town wins.
Mafia: The basic antagonist role. You and the other Mafia players work together to kill off the townspeople. During the day, you pretend to be normal townspeople and voting on who is to be lynched. During the night, you get to kill one other player. You win once you have greater then or equal to the number of town aligned players.
Mafia Godfather: Leader of the Mafia. He cannot be detected by the Cop's ability.
Cop: An honest cop, he may choose one player each night to investigate. He will then learn if that player is Mafia or Town.
Doctor: The doctor may choose one player each night to protect from the mafia's night kill.
General Rules:
Rule on PMs: Private Messages will not be allowed except to me, or amongst the Mafia members. All communication by townsfolk must be done in the thread.
Nights will last for 24 hours or until I've gotten the night kill order from the mafia team, whichever comes first. During the Night phase the topic will be locked and no public communication will occur except for messages from me. Private communication is still allowed, however.
Days will last for 48 hours or until everyone has voted (if there is a long period of inactivity after everyone votes I'll end the day to keep things moving).
In order for a lynch to occur, over half of the players must have voted. The player with the most votes against them will be lynched. In the event of a tie no one will be lynched.
All votes should be colored red to make it easy for me to spot them.
Dead players may not post in the thread until the game is over, and may not PM any living players about the game.
The Mafia team will have a chat area on http://www.quicktopic.com. I will PM the appropriate link to you at the start of the game. This chat area will let them talk freely without filling up their PM boxes.
Please, feel free to ask any questions you have about the rules.
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*Cough*
I'd join. :P
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Im in.
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*sigh*
Ok, how about people who haven't been in all the Paranormal Mafia's speak up?
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I... may join. Just to see what the hell is so great about these forum games.
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That's kind of the point. It'd be a simple introductory Mafia game to let people learn how the game is played without worrying about weird rules and special power roles. By keeping it limited to newer players, it keeps the game from being dominated by experienced mafia players.
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I've been studying the rules of a few more popular mafias, but I haven't actually played one. I'd like to have a go, please.
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I would at least recommend a few basic power roles. Cop, doctor, roleblocker, maybe a godfather all seem ok. Much more than that is pushing it.
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Well, for this one I'll go no power roles. Later beginner mafias could have the basic roles, I suppose, but really it's best to start playing games without roles. Roles tend to hamper regular playing and especially scumhunting, since they encourage role-less players to rely on the role players too much.
One thing all Mafia players need to learn is that they are important, even without a role. Our more experienced players, like Webadict and chaoticjosh, understand that. Even if they're a regular townsperson they'll play the game to the hilt, and quite often are key to winning. I'd like our less experienced players to learn what that is like and get a feel for how you scum-hunt without any powers to back you up.
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The problem with that is that most players, experienced and beginners, find mountainous boring.
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Wait. I am not in.
Why?
I am not that experienced.
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I think that an intro to how to interact with power roles is good, though, m'self.
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Hmmm...true...
Ok, I'll leave it up to the players. Basic power roles or no roles at all? If you haven't signed up and want to, you can add your vote with your sign-up.
@Org: Ok, I'll let you join. You've been in quite a few mafias, but I don't think you're too likely to dominate the game, so I'll let you in anyway.
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I suppose I'm not allowed in?
Also, I suggest that it be only Sane Cops and normal Doctors.
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Arr? I'll join if possible.
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On Power Roles: I agree with Pandar. Doctors and Town-Cops only. No Power Roles for Mafia.
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I'll co-mod this one if meph doesn't mind... Helping with votecounts and mafia-related info.
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Sounds fine to me. Although we need more then 3 players...
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I suggest randomly choosing between this 4 setups:
* 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies.
* 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies.
* 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies.
* 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies.
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I suggest randomly choosing between this 4 setups:
* 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies.
* 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies.
* 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies.
* 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies.
My assessments, in order:
1) Too many roles for a newblet game
2) Why- what... that doesn't.... that's just Mountainous!
3) Acceptable
4) Perhaps the best - can't have newbies use the Cop as a crutch but they learn to interact with their power roles.
I think it should be 3 or 4 without saying which.
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I suggest randomly choosing between this 4 setups:
* 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies.
* 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies.
* 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies.
* 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies.
My assessments, in order:
1) Too many roles for a newblet game
2) Why- what... that doesn't.... that's just Mountainous!
3) Acceptable
4) Perhaps the best - can't have newbies use the Cop as a crutch but they learn to interact with their power roles.
I think it should be 3 or 4 without saying which.
2)Why is there a role blocker if there arent any power roles.
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2)Why is there a role blocker if there arent any power roles.
So that the mafia can't deduce the existence of cop + doctor from the existence of a roleblocker. Three is there so that the cop can't deduce the existence of a doctor and a roleblocker from his own existence, and 4 is there so that the doctor can't deduce the existence of a cop and a roleblocker from his existence. Makes sense to me.
I'm not sure if throwing power roles in is a good idea. I think I'd add a 2 goons/7 town possibility to create the possibility that there are no power roles to go to.
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How about a chance of a doc, an independent chance of a cop, and chances for a RB on BOTH sides. Those are the only PR.
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I'll probably just use my program from Paranormal with a limited role set and let it pick. That gives us a balanced game without any guarantees of what we'll see.
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I'll probably just use my program from Paranormal with a limited role set and let it pick. That gives us a balanced game without any guarantees of what we'll see.
Agree.
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Are doctors like Guardians from para?
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Yep.
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Ok, that could work.
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Ok, im in. Ive played this game in RL but not on here before. Id also vote for a few power roles.
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I'll probably just use my program from Paranormal with a limited role set and let it pick. That gives us a balanced game without any guarantees of what we'll see.
Agree.
Or that.
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Bloodbeard is burdened with many DF community things, Bloodbeard's movement has been slowed, but Bloodbeard has been intrigued by Chaoticjosh's tutorial and can't resist signing up for newb mafia.
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Meph... this game needs to be non pm-free...
You should only be able to talk about it in the thread...
or it will be too complicated and wifomy.
Let them grasp the mafia mechanics before you bring them into bay12's usual Gossip mafia.
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Hmmm...probably a good idea. Ok, I'll change the rule on PMs.
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What happens when the lynching is tied?
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On a tie, no one is lynched.
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Meph, if you need someone to fill a gap in the ranks I don't mind.
I will fully understand if you think I shouldn't play though.
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I think it would be good if some experienced people play. They could act as an example of good and bad ways to play, not good and bad as in effective and ineffective but good and bad as in the spirit of play.
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Not a bad idea, but I'd like make it mostly newer players if possible. But, yeah, if we go for a while without more sign-ups I'll probably let some of the more experienced players join in too.
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You could probably put up a post in General Discussion looking for newbies.
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Hmmm...not a bad idea. I'll do that.
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You could also add this to the replacements thread, if you haven't already.
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Do you need an Inexperience Challenged? I'd be willing to help the game progress through the first Day, if you need it. I'll go through the procedures and help them along, teach them a thing or two.
Also, you should do the simple setup:
2 Mafiosos, 6 Townies, with a 50% chance of a Cop and 50% chance of a Doctor.
It's the easiest setup ever, and it's a good one with which to teach.
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Maybe have me, Web, Alexhans, and Josh each create a day-by-day analysis that we put after the game ends, so each person can see what uninformed, experienced non-players thought of how everyone played and how the game as a whole went? It could be a good learning experience for them.
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Maybe have me, Web, Alexhans, and Josh each create a day-by-day analysis that we put after the game ends, so each person can see what uninformed, experienced non-players thought of how everyone played and how the game as a whole went? It could be a good learning experience for them.
That sounds like an excellent idea!
We still need more inexperienced players, though.
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Quick question: What does WIFOM mean?
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Handy link (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Wine_in_Front_of_Me).
To sum up: It's a situation where the possibility of someone doing something to make you think something is high.
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Like if I said right before being lynched that I was the cop or doctor.
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Quick question: What does WIFOM mean?
Read the beginner's Mafia thread. I put some common terms at the bottom to help newbies.
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Ah, cool. I was trying to fit "Finger of" and "Wanted" onto it.
Like if I said right before being lynched that I was the cop or doctor.
That would smack of scum desperation, to me. I mean, it wouldn't help a towny much (the mafia would probably night kill him anyway).
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Ah, cool. I was trying to fit "Finger of" and "Wanted" onto it.
Like if I said right before being lynched that I was the cop or doctor.
That would smack of scum desperation, to me. I mean, it wouldn't help a towny much (the mafia would probably night kill him anyway).
True, but then it's a buffer, isn't it?
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Also, if that person's claim is genuine, the Mafia may let him live to cast suspicion on him - another WIFOM.
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Also, if that person's claim is genuine, the Mafia may let him live to cast suspicion on him - another WIFOM.
Dun dun DUUUUUN!
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Mafia is basically just one huge WIFOM.
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True in a way, since, y'know, everyone is trying to make someone else think they're something they aren't.
Also, webadict, I'm sure you're familiar with that trick from Paranormal 1.
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True in a way, since, y'know, everyone is trying to make someone else think they're something they aren't.
Also, webadict, I'm sure you're familiar with that trick from Paranormal 1.
My first successful game of mafia!
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Well, you guys made a good call, recruiting the Survivor.
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Yeah, in paranormal almost everyone claims to be town, which obviously can't be the case as games often only have one or two actually townies...
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not really...
it says that it can be just normal dopps and townies if you read the rules...
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I know that, but usually there are quite a lot of roles. In round 6 there was one towny.
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yes, that's why I strongly suggested the mod to give more townies per game and allow 2 roles in the same team...
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All right. Sign me up, please.
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I just registered for the express purpose of signing up.
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Now that's a first. Nifty!
Ok, we now have 8 people. I'll work on getting things set up sometime over the weekend. We'll start on Monday, I think.
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Hello Free Beer!
must resist temptation
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I just registered for the express purpose of signing up.
and you found out, how?
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Who cares! FREE BEER! ;D
*rips open shirt and starts running around
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Do people want a flavor of some sort (like doppelgangers or werewolves) or just basic mafia roles? (mafia goon, cop, doc, etc)
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We're beginners, we don't know ;D
Since pming isn't allowed, would basic roles make things harder to identify the scum?
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Basic mafia roles
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We're beginners, we don't know ;D
Since pming isn't allowed, would basic roles make things harder to identify the scum?
It depends. You guys may find the game difficult, since it's based on finding scum through suspicious posting if there are few roles, and that is rather difficult as a beginner. That's why I figured having an experienced player to guide them along would be recommended.
I think non-complicated roles are what they should start with. Mafia Goons, Townies, Cops, Doctors, Roleblockers, Vigilantes and Godfathers should be fine. Nothing more complicated, and indeed it might be better with a set (random) roles. Something like 25-50% of having a RB, Vig, Cop, or Doc (Separated instances), and a 50% chance of a Godfather, or some such nonsense. Maybe a 25-50% chance of a Mafia RB too...
I, personally, believe that a small game should have only the Mafiosos, Townies, Doc and Cop. Maybe a Godfather. That's it. Any bigger might be bad.
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In mafiascum they put 2 IC's in every newbie game... 9 players total... 7 newbs 2 ICs to guide them... they ICs may still be scum but should try to help the players as much as possible...
web: mafia MUST have a Roleblocker to prevent a cop claim...
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Analyzing and reading people is one of my strong points actually and is why this interests me. I'd jump right into a paranormal game but I would end up putting off all my other B12 commitments to try and master it, being the perfectionist that I am. Something nice and small like this is just fine at this point in time.
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Hey, Web, Alexhans, Josh, do you like my idea of us making day-by-day statements to release at the end of the game?
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Hey, Web, Alexhans, Josh, do you like my idea of us making day-by-day statements to release at the end of the game?
Yeah, that's a good idea. But, like Alex said, there should be two ICs in a small game. Eh?
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I'm thinking maybe vets who are familiar with the principles but less inclined towards lengthy analysis (Inaluct, for example) might be better for the people who are an actual part of it.
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In mafiascum they put 2 IC's in every newbie game... 9 players total... 7 newbs 2 ICs to guide them... they ICs may still be scum but should try to help the players as much as possible...
web: mafia MUST have a Roleblocker to prevent a cop claim...
Wouldn't the night kill and the fact that you could be trying to trick the doctor into protecting the mafia be enough? Although yeah, I agree, there should be a mafia RB.
By the way, I'll be away from Tuesday - Friday, so I may not be able to play this round.
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Hey, Web, Alexhans, Josh, do you like my idea of us making day-by-day statements to release at the end of the game?
ok....
I'm thinking maybe vets who are familiar with the principles but less inclined towards lengthy analysis (Inaluct, for example) might be better for the people who are an actual part of it.
You've got to be kidding me... ::) Inaluct lurks and has never shown much inclination to scumhunt...
Wouldn't the night kill and the fact that you could be trying to trick the doctor into protecting the mafia be enough? Although yeah, I agree, there should be a mafia RB.
No. If there's a cop that claims and no one counter claims (knowing there is a doc) then the claimed cop is town and will be protected. If mafia counter claims, all they can do is trade a mafioso for the cop (unless the mafioso gets lynched, and scum is screwed).
In any way. If there's no threat to the cop's claim it's in town's best interest to make him claim and then get protected.
Mafia can't trade 1 for 1.
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Not inaluct.
And good call Alex. I seem to have forgotten that.
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I'll join in. Been years since I played any form of mafia and reading the entire set of Para matches got me interested again. It's also a good way to get intros out of the way as well *newbie waves*.
Meanwhile, if you are looking to keep it purely simple, I'd say 1 doc would be enough to get the players used to power roles (town wondering who is out there, mafia having a direct target, and doc fearful for their life) without a chance at breaking the game. Newbies tend to hang on to the cop roles to save the town more than anything else: leaving them out is enough to keep the focus off power roles.
Other roles can be used easily, like the roleblocker and even a vig. Once the cop or other investigative role comes in, the game needs to be more complicated to cancel them. Nothing wrong with a nice healthy set of power roles though, imo (i.e. Para 1 without the Aliens).
Of course making sure no one knows what the game will have beyond the # of mafia is enough to curb ALL issues: you could even do a 1 doc/1cop since we won't know that's how it's set up (note mafiascum had to change that because they kept running the same roles over and over, so everyone knew what was comming..you won't have the same problem here).
*that'll be a trip: seeing the role list from Para 4 but it ends up being 1 cop 2 mafia and rest townies :P*
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Hey, Web, Alexhans, Josh, do you like my idea of us making day-by-day statements to release at the end of the game?
Sure Pandar, I'd be up to do this!
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Awesome, all of us are on-board for that, then.
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Ok, since Leafsnail will be out for a good chunk of the week dakarian can have his spot.
I'll update the first post with the possible roles I'll be allowing (cop, doctor, godfather), and I'll get the game set up and running sometime today.
I think I'll let Webadict be in the game as a coach (just be nice to the newbies, Web ;) ).
Web, Panda, Josh, and Alex (if he likes), can all do day-by-day summaries once the game is over to help everyone see how they did. Should be very useful for everyone. And remember, it's constructive criticism, so don't feel too bad if missed stuff or made mistakes. Everyone does, even veteran players.
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Ok, since Leafsnail will be out for a good chunk of the week dakarian can have his spot.
I'll update the first post with the possible roles I'll be allowing (cop, doctor, godfather), and I'll get the game set up and running sometime today.
I think I'll let Webadict be in the game as a coach (just be nice to the newbies, Web ;) ).
Web, Panda, Josh, and Alex (if he likes), can all do day-by-day summaries once the game is over to help everyone see how they did. Should be very useful for everyone. And remember, it's constructive criticism, so don't feel too bad if missed stuff or made mistakes. Everyone does, even veteran players.
Don't worry. I'll be nice, and I won't yell at them even if they make a really big mistake. But if they make a really huge mistake, I might have to give 'em a good talkin' to. And no pming, or what?
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Correct, no PMing unless you're mafia. And then only to each other.
I'm going to be a bit busy tonight, so I'll get the game started tomorrow morning. Probably around 10am Pacific.
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Correct, no PMing unless you're mafia. And then only to each other.
I'm going to be a bit busy tonight, so I'll get the game started tomorrow morning. Probably around 10am Pacific.
Sounds good. What's the setup?
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7 Townsfolk, 2 Mafia. Possible roles are Cop and Doctor for town and Godfather for Mafia. There will be 0-1 of any given power role in the game. So, pretty much your standard beginner set-up.
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There has always been a mafia presence in this town, but until now it was quiet. Something to be tolerated, if you couldn't get rid of it easily. Now, though, now they've crossed the line. The Mayor and the Chief of Police have been found dead, and the town is in a panic. You 9 have decided to do something about it. The only catch is, you're sure that 2 of you are the mafia members behind all of this. Therefore, each day you'll vote to lynch the person you think most likely to be mafia. If you choose wisely, the town will be saved. If you choose poorly, the mafia will be able to take complete control of the town.
Ok, Day 1 has started. This day will go until ~10am Pacific Thursday. Good luck, and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions about the rules.
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Let the hunt begin. I Inny minny miny mo'd my lynch in Vector. What's your story?
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Scratch that, Unvote. Vector hasn't been on in 3 days and i'd like a response sooner rather then later. Next on the list is Free Beer who also hasn't been on in 3 days. Next is webadict and I don't think Meph would make the experienced person here a mafia so back to the top of the list with Jim Groovester. What's your story?
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For reference: All mafia game moderators distribute roles randomly... Using Excel spreadsheets, random.org or some other tool so that everyone has the exact same chances of getting each role.
If you ever mod a game. You should do this. It's only fair and it will avoid having players trying to outguess the mod instead of scumhunting.
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I've read Mephansteras saying before that he would manually change up roles if it made the game better, that's where I based my thoughts on webadict.
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That's usually for role balance in Paranormal, and has more to do with roles and less to do with the people. (No Agent Seeker with an Agent, for example). And I do that less now that my script has gotten smarter.
In any case, never base your voting logic on what you think I might have done. Most of the time, I just let my scripts run and take the results. Which is what I did here, so you shouldn't be so quick to rule out webadict as scum. It's all up to the RNG. :)
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Scratch that, Unvote. Vector hasn't been on in 3 days and i'd like a response sooner rather then later. Next on the list is Free Beer who also hasn't been on in 3 days. Next is webadict and I don't think Meph would make the experienced person here a mafia so back to the top of the list with Jim Groovester. What's your story?
You can NEVER exempt anyone from Mafia, unless there's a 100% chance that it's impossible. As the case may be, it is certainly possible for me to be scum, and you can't stop suspecting me. As Sherlock Holmes would say, "Improbable does not mean impossible."
And what's with these people not being on? They haven't been on in 3 days, and I highly doubt they'll be back afterward.
But, I'd rather question Org. Tell me Org, what color comes to mind first?
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I'll give you that, just a little misunderstanding with what Meph meant in a post from before. I haven't ruled you out but there are other reasons to not to ask you questions this early. For one beginners would be easier to read.
I'm worried about Vector, not only has he not been on in 3 days but in the months that he has been a member of this forum he only has 3 posts.
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Rule 1 of a mafia game: NEVER outguess the Mod.
I tried that a long time ago in a set of games where everyone had a power role and someone claimed Timmie the Townie. Turned out the mod slipped in that exact role.
As such, I'll maintain a Fos of webadict if only because when I read through the Para matches I ALWAYS get worried when he gets active. Besides, what else do I have to go on ;P
As for the vote, I was about to vote Org but web beat me to it. A few others havn't been around a few days and it might be best to get the active folks talking first. As such I'll start on eduren.
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Wait, so theyres a lynching on the first day?
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OK I'M JUST POSTING BECAUSE I JUST SAW THIS THREAD OK?
;D
Vote BloodBeard.
You don't like me do you?
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Wait, so theyres a lynching on the first day?
Ah, right, I forgot that there are variants of mafia that start at night. Yes, we start at day 1 with a lynch, rather then at night. Mostly because I think it's lame that a player can be killed before ever getting to do anything. At least this way the town gets information based on voting patterns and everyone gets to at least play the first round.
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Hmm... how about BloodBeard
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I promise I'm actually here and not dead. I'm just a heavy-duty lurker.
Anyway, I do not actually know how this first-day business actually works. It appears that we're asking each other random questions... ? Is there any particular process one uses to determine proper vs. improper questions?
Additionally, I'm confused about why someone would ask my what my story is, given that in the game there is no story to give. Would the answer not always be some permutation of "I am just a simple townsperson, trying not to get killed by the Mafia"?
Honestly, I'm quite confused. Thanks for the help, and sorry for the wandering all over the place.
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Hey, Web, Alexhans, Josh, do you like my idea of us making day-by-day statements to release at the end of the game?
Yeah, that's a good idea. But, like Alex said, there should be two ICs in a small game. Eh?
At the time the above quoted post was made, Meph had clearly indicated that he was closing signups and that the game would begin after the weekend.
The fact that you are given a special status as a coach opens the potential for abuse of that status, and the post in question opens the possibility that you are aware of and intend to exploit that fact.
So, webadict, would you care to explain yourself? Why were you so eager to get in, that you would attempt to persuade the GM even after he has ruled?
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Yay, you two aren't inactive.
OK I'M JUST POSTING BECAUSE I JUST SAW THIS THREAD OK?
;D
Vote BloodBeard.
You don't like me do you?
That's for Rysith not beating Fireheart isn't it? ;D
I can forgive Toony because he is a hyper little...something, but eduren's lynch with no added comments look a little bandwagony to me. I request a more detailed explanation please.
Vector: Right now it's the only thing we can do. Depending on how you answer questions you might reveal more then you intended.
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Hmm... how about BloodBeard
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....are you scum?! SCUM SCUM SCUM.
Unvote.
Yes you got me BloodBeard, it was that.
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Blue.
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Well Im a bandwagonny type of guy. I kinda just wanted to get this first lynch out of the way. My vote still stands though.
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Well Im a bandwagonny type of guy. I kinda just wanted to get this first lynch out of the way. My vote still stands though.
Gotcha.
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Question to eduren: What is your favorite book, and why?
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Stranger in a Strange Land. Mostly because when i first read it i was a sexually frustrated little ball of hormones.
Well Im a bandwagonny type of guy. I kinda just wanted to get this first lynch out of the way. My vote still stands though.
Gotcha.
Is that a Gotcha as in "OK". Or a "We got the scum now!"?
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*twilight music plays*
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I think a good first step is determining who and who has not responded in this thread. The people who haven't, the lurkers as you call them, aren't contributing to the discussion of who to lynch or are trying to avoid drawing suspicion by not talking in the thread. Since one is scum and the other isn't contributing, we can lynch them to bide time. In other words, we lose nothing, and we might gain something. So a list of people who've posted in the thread so far is in order: Erg, dammit.
That leaves Org as the only person who hasn't responded yet. If he doesn't respond within a reasonable amount of time, I say we lynch 'im.
If he does respond, well, we're going to have to adopt a different voting strategy. Erg, dammit, nevermind. Missed his post a little bit back.
I still say Org.
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Dude, he posted on the last page.
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back to the top of the list with Jim Groovester. What's your story?
Answer the question Jim! If that is your real name...
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I'm curious.
Jim Groovester, why are you persisting Org with no evidence that he/she/it is scum?
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I'm curious.
Jim Groovester, why are you persisting Org with no evidence that he/she/it is scum?
Unvote before you vote again.
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Eduren, I'll jump in from out of game to answer that for you. Basically, you just random vote somebody, see how they respond, then vote somebody else. At some point, decide on who you think is scum and vote for them. See who does and doesn't defend that person. Ask questions (Why did you vote for PERSON1 but not PERSON2? Who do you think is scum? ect.)
At the moment, you're just trying to gather data. Well, and not get lynched, I guess.
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It's a strategy dudes. To get scum.
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I understood that, just not used to starting in daytime. The times Ive played this game IRL it started with one night round.
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It's fine. Day 1 lynches usually aren't scum anyway. Unless the scum does something obvious.
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Like jump on a bandwagon?
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I'm curious.
Jim Groovester, why are you persisting Org with no evidence that he/she/it is scum?
Because he's not doing anything. If he's not doing anything, it's no big loss if he goes.
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Quick note for everyone: Please do not edit your posts. If you need to correct something, or add something, just go ahead and double-post. While that may be poor form in other parts of the forum, it's the accepted practice in mafia games. Mostly because edited posts make it look like you're scum trying to hide something.
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Blorgh. Sorry about that--I had no intention to vote for anyone. I thought the red text could be used to get the attention of the person you were questioning.
In that case: Unvote.
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I'm curious.
Jim Groovester, why are you persisting Org with no evidence that he/she/it is scum?
Because he's not doing anything. If he's not doing anything, it's no big loss if he goes.
I JUST GOT BACK FROM SCHOOL. JESUS GIVE ME A BREAK BECAUSE I HAVE HOMEWORK.
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Unvote, then. I guess that explains the inactivity during the day.
back to the top of the list with Jim Groovester. What's your story?
Answer the question Jim! If that is your real name...
I'm trying to gather information and trying to make an informed decision about who to lynch on the first day.
That's my story, BloodBeard. What's yours?
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Soo...
2 for bloodbeard
1 for org
and 1 for webadict?
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Hey, Web, Alexhans, Josh, do you like my idea of us making day-by-day statements to release at the end of the game?
Yeah, that's a good idea. But, like Alex said, there should be two ICs in a small game. Eh?
At the time the above quoted post was made, Meph had clearly indicated that he was closing signups and that the game would begin after the weekend.
The fact that you are given a special status as a coach opens the potential for abuse of that status, and the post in question opens the possibility that you are aware of and intend to exploit that fact.
So, webadict, would you care to explain yourself? Why were you so eager to get in, that you would attempt to persuade the GM even after he has ruled?
Simply put, I feel that you all needed someone with some experience in mafias to show you how to play, instead of starting from scratch. Sometimes, it'll be easier and I can answer certain questions, or I can show you why an analysis is or is not correct.
I promise I'm actually here and not dead. I'm just a heavy-duty lurker.
Anyway, I do not actually know how this first-day business actually works. It appears that we're asking each other random questions... ? Is there any particular process one uses to determine proper vs. improper questions?
Additionally, I'm confused about why someone would ask my what my story is, given that in the game there is no story to give. Would the answer not always be some permutation of "I am just a simple townsperson, trying not to get killed by the Mafia"?
Honestly, I'm quite confused. Thanks for the help, and sorry for the wandering all over the place.
Well, we normally start with the Random Voting Phase, where you randomly vote someone, post your suspicions, etc. You should not lurk, as that is not helpful as town, and very suspicious as scum. No matter which team you are, you should never lurk.
Blue.
Good man. Blue is a very calm and secure color.
I'm curious.
Jim Groovester, why are you persisting Org with no evidence that he/she/it is scum?
Because he's not doing anything. If he's not doing anything, it's no big loss if he goes.
I JUST GOT BACK FROM SCHOOL. JESUS GIVE ME A BREAK BECAUSE I HAVE HOMEWORK.
Well, you don't need to yell. Just answer the questions when you can...
Blorgh. Sorry about that--I had no intention to vote for anyone. I thought the red text could be used to get the attention of the person you were questioning.
In that case: Unvote.
I'm going to have to vote you, Vector. You seem to not be voting someone right now. Why is that? Do you find no one suspicious? Or do you think nobody else IS suspicious because you are, in fact, scum?
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Ok
2 for Bloodbeard
1 for Webadict
1 for jim
and one for vector
Is that it so far?
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I'd just let Meph do it personally.
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The Whiteboard
BloodBeard: Jim Groovester, eduren
Jim Groovester: BloodBeard
Vector: webadict
eduren: dakarian
webadict: Free Beer
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Well. I was just mad. Geez, give me some time.
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Well. I was just mad. Geez, give me some time.
Or are you scum? Ready to kill again...?
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Little off topic but has always bugged me: How long ago was the whole penguin avatar thing?
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Little off topic but has always bugged me: How long ago was the whole penguin avatar thing?
It was a couple of months ago. But, maybe you should start helping out and stop actively lurking. You proceed to ask lots of questions without participating in the game. Why is that?
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He's new?
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Well when i did accuse, i was turned upon pretty quickly. Trying to avoid that.
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Well when i did accuse, i was turned upon pretty quickly. Trying to avoid that.
The point is to measure people's reactions. Are they good or bad? Do you think that it was forced or natural? What do you think of the person that said it?
The point is to find scum and you can't find any scum by doing nothing.
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Sure, there are people who seem to be acting oddly nervous. It's pretty early in the day, though, so I don't see a real point to voting--though I'm guessing that it's mostly to raise paranoia and hope that scum take false steps?
I'll put it this way: I haven't really figured out what I'm doing yet, and I don't feel like getting on any bandwagons (given that the day ends on Thursday). Right now, I'm trying to figure out how this game is played. I suppose part of that is random voting.
Cast suspicions on eduren (nervousness, lack of analysis/questioning), vote dakarian. He/she/it is being very quiet.
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Hmm... Org could be using his homework as an excuse to lurk. What class is the homework for?
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Unvote, then. I guess that explains the inactivity during the day.
back to the top of the list with Jim Groovester. What's your story?
Answer the question Jim! If that is your real name...
I'm trying to gather information and trying to make an informed decision about who to lynch on the first day.
That's my story, BloodBeard. What's yours?
A simple townsperson scumhunting.
Unvote
Vote eduren. Bandwagon votes me and jokes it off by admitting to be a bandwagoner. Just seems too laid back for my liking.
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Well I guess i just dont like alliteration.
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BloodBeard is telling the truth. I FEEL IT.
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Sure, there are people who seem to be acting oddly nervous. It's pretty early in the day, though, so I don't see a real point to voting--though I'm guessing that it's mostly to raise paranoia and hope that scum take false steps?
I'll put it this way: I haven't really figured out what I'm doing yet, and I don't feel like getting on any bandwagons (given that the day ends on Thursday). Right now, I'm trying to figure out how this game is played. I suppose part of that is random voting.
Cast suspicions on eduren (nervousness, lack of analysis/questioning), vote dakarian. He/she/it is being very quiet.
Well, why are you voting for dakarian and not eduren? And you shouldn't be casting suspicions on people. You should be finding suspicious people.
Also, when you want to say someone is suspicious, you say FoS. Like, I FoS eduren for being very lurky. His last response also did not actively look for scum. It was trying to show someone as suspicious:
Hmm... Org could be using his homework as an excuse to lurk. What class is the homework for?
That's very suspicious. Scum is like that. They're cautious. They don't want to be too bold or they'll make a spectacle of themselves.
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FoS ToonyMan. Just because you don't act like a townsperson or mafia and it makes people pass you off as being silly and not consider you as a suspect.
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I think Vector was talking about dakarian "FoS"ing me. Suggesting an overzealous fingerpointing.
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Hmm... Org could be using his homework as an excuse to lurk. What class is the homework for?
Honors Lit/Comp
Spanish 3
Hmm... Org could be using his homework as an excuse to lurk. What class is the homework for?
That's very suspicious. Scum is like that. They're cautious. They don't want to be too bold or they'll make a spectacle of themselves.
Or I am doing this so I wont seem not like mafia
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FoS ToonyMan. Just because you don't act like a townsperson or mafia and it makes people pass you off as being silly and not consider you as a suspect.
Same could be said for you....maybe.......yeah.........yeah........*shakes head up and down*.......yeahhh
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Or I am doing this so I wont seem not like mafia
Did you mean the double negative?
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Or I am doing this so I wont seem not like mafia
Did you mean the double negative?
Or didnt I not mean the double negative?
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Spanish 3
Donde es la biblioteca?
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1. I'm voting for dakarian because eduren doesn't look that dangerous. Dakarian is lurking. Eduren is currently bumbling around. He is acting either like scum or like he doesn't know what he's doing. For example, it seems that the ideal questions are psychological ones (like the color one). He is asking questions that do not increase paranoia in the suspect, so at the moment I am considering him less dangerous.
Then, he's also running scared already. His posts have a frightened tone and he's not behaving like he's in control anymore. I figured I would FoS him (sorry, that's what I meant by casting suspicions) instead of using up my vote, because I want dakarian to feel like he/she/it has something serious to address and votes seem to outweigh FoS-ing. Essentially, the goal is to induce a similar degree of panic in dakarian to that in eduren.
2. Why would I vote dakarian for FoS-ing you, at the same time as I FoS'd you? The fingerpointing is not overzealous, in my point of view. Eduren, you are acting very odd.
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Spanish 3
Donde es la biblioteca?
El biblioteca es en la ciudad.
1. I'm voting for dakarian because eduren doesn't look that dangerous. Dakarian is lurking. Eduren is currently bumbling around. He is acting either like scum or like he doesn't know what he's doing. For example, it seems that the ideal questions are psychological ones (like the color one). He is asking questions that do not increase paranoia in the suspect, so at the moment I am considering him less dangerous.
Then, he's also running scared already. His posts have a frightened tone and he's not behaving like he's in control anymore. I figured I would FoS him (sorry, that's what I meant by casting suspicions) instead of using up my vote, because I want dakarian to feel like he/she/it has something serious to address and votes seem to outweigh FoS-ing. Essentially, the goal is to induce a similar degree of panic in dakarian to that in eduren.
2. Why would I vote dakarian for FoS-ing you, at the same time as I FoS'd you? The fingerpointing is not overzealous, in my point of view. Eduren, you are acting very odd.
Contestas en roja
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Or I am doing this so I wont seem not like mafia
Did you mean the double negative?
Or didnt I not mean the double negative?
That's lynchable. You've basically said you're mafia and that you meant the double negative.
1. I'm voting for dakarian because eduren doesn't look that dangerous. Dakarian is lurking. Eduren is currently bumbling around. He is acting either like scum or like he doesn't know what he's doing. For example, it seems that the ideal questions are psychological ones (like the color one). He is asking questions that do not increase paranoia in the suspect, so at the moment I am considering him less dangerous.
Then, he's also running scared already. His posts have a frightened tone and he's not behaving like he's in control anymore. I figured I would FoS him (sorry, that's what I meant by casting suspicions) instead of using up my vote, because I want dakarian to feel like he/she/it has something serious to address and votes seem to outweigh FoS-ing. Essentially, the goal is to induce a similar degree of panic in dakarian to that in eduren.
2. Why would I vote dakarian for FoS-ing you, at the same time as I FoS'd you? The fingerpointing is not overzealous, in my point of view. Eduren, you are acting very odd.
So, the reason you think dakarian is more dangerous is because he's not posting, but eduren is posting, just nothing with substance?
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2. Why would I vote dakarian for FoS-ing you, at the same time as I FoS'd you? The fingerpointing is not overzealous, in my point of view. Eduren, you are acting very odd.
I was clearing up webadicts confusion about who you were FoSing. I said that you were voting for dakarian because of his fingerpointing.
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Or I am doing this so I wont seem not like mafia
Did you mean the double negative?
Or didnt I not not mean the double negative?
That's lynchable. You've basically said you're mafia and that you meant the double negative.
1. I'm voting for dakarian because eduren doesn't look that dangerous. Dakarian is lurking. Eduren is currently bumbling around. He is acting either like scum or like he doesn't know what he's doing. For example, it seems that the ideal questions are psychological ones (like the color one). He is asking questions that do not increase paranoia in the suspect, so at the moment I am considering him less dangerous.
Then, he's also running scared already. His posts have a frightened tone and he's not behaving like he's in control anymore. I figured I would FoS him (sorry, that's what I meant by casting suspicions) instead of using up my vote, because I want dakarian to feel like he/she/it has something serious to address and votes seem to outweigh FoS-ing. Essentially, the goal is to induce a similar degree of panic in dakarian to that in eduren.
2. Why would I vote dakarian for FoS-ing you, at the same time as I FoS'd you? The fingerpointing is not overzealous, in my point of view. Eduren, you are acting very odd.
So, the reason you think dakarian is more dangerous is because he's not posting, but eduren is posting, just nothing with substance?
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1. I'm not trying to vote eduren yet, so there are no contestas right now.
2. dakarian is an unknown quality. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but eduren seems like a fool. I will probably end up voting for him when it actually comes to lynching, but right now I think it's more important to get dakarian out here and talking.
It's not that I think dakarian is dangerous. It's that eduren seems not-that-dangerous, mostly silly. My guess is that he's going to get lynched, which would be good; however, before the end of the first day, I would really like more information from people like dakarian and whatever other lurkers I've forgotten about.
3. Org, I don't understand your post. Can you explain what you're trying to say?
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I forgot a not.
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Ah, sorry about that. Thanks for the clarification.
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No harm Vector, just remember
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity
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Free Beer: Post some of your thoughts. You're on and you've only posted once.
dakarian hasn't been on the forums since his one post, personally that doesn't seem very suspicous for a newbie.
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Hey, Web, Alexhans, Josh, do you like my idea of us making day-by-day statements to release at the end of the game?
Yeah, that's a good idea. But, like Alex said, there should be two ICs in a small game. Eh?
At the time the above quoted post was made, Meph had clearly indicated that he was closing signups and that the game would begin after the weekend.
The fact that you are given a special status as a coach opens the potential for abuse of that status, and the post in question opens the possibility that you are aware of and intend to exploit that fact.
So, webadict, would you care to explain yourself? Why were you so eager to get in, that you would attempt to persuade the GM even after he has ruled?
Simply put, I feel that you all needed someone with some experience in mafias to show you how to play, instead of starting from scratch. Sometimes, it'll be easier and I can answer certain questions, or I can show you why an analysis is or is not correct.
[remainder of post clipped for space]
Fair enough. Be aware that I have read the Mafia Wiki that gets linked here often (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Being_a_good_IC) and will be keeping an eye on you, for the greater good of the game.
I'll unvote and vote for ToonyMan, as he has yet to face any serious pressure. Could you explain the previous grudge that led you to vote for Bloodbeard (and then quickly about face when called on it)? Also, why are you currently abstaining? And why are you simply dismissing any inquiries into your suspicious behavior? You might like the insanity of the mafia that you are currently running, but I consider this a serious game. No doubt others feel the same.
Free Beer: Post some of your thoughts. You're on and you've only posted once.
dakarian hasn't been on the forums since his one post, personally that doesn't seem very suspicous for a newbie.
As for my lack of posting, first I was waiting for webadict's reply, and then I have been attempting to post for the last half hour or so, but people keep preempting me.
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This is serious. I counter with unabstainess!
Vote well....I don't know right now. Hee hee. Day 1's are blarg.
How about Org? I'll change it later or something if something something.
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I'll unvote and vote for ToonyMan, as he has yet to face any serious pressure. Could you explain the previous grudge that led you to vote for Bloodbeard (and then quickly about face when called on it)?
That was just silliness from a thing going on in my community fortress, although whether he was serious about voting me for that reason I don't know.
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This is serious. I counter with unabstainess!
Vote well....I don't know right now. Hee hee. Day 1's are blarg.
How about Org? I'll change it later or something if something something.
Hmmm...
That's very suspicious. Scum is like that. They're cautious. They don't want to be too bold or they'll make a spectacle of themselves.
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This is serious. I counter with unabstainess!
Vote well....I don't know right now. Hee hee. Day 1's are blarg.
How about Org? I'll change it later or something if something something.
You still haven't answered any of my questions. What are you hiding? Are you scum?
I'll unvote and vote for ToonyMan, as he has yet to face any serious pressure. Could you explain the previous grudge that led you to vote for Bloodbeard (and then quickly about face when called on it)?
That was just silliness from a thing going on in my community fortress, although whether he was serious about voting me for that reason I don't know.
I'd appreciate it if you let him answer for himself.
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I'M BOLD.
I'M NOT SCUM. HAHAHAHH.
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Hey, Web, Alexhans, Josh, do you like my idea of us making day-by-day statements to release at the end of the game?
Yeah, that's a good idea. But, like Alex said, there should be two ICs in a small game. Eh?
At the time the above quoted post was made, Meph had clearly indicated that he was closing signups and that the game would begin after the weekend.
The fact that you are given a special status as a coach opens the potential for abuse of that status, and the post in question opens the possibility that you are aware of and intend to exploit that fact.
So, webadict, would you care to explain yourself? Why were you so eager to get in, that you would attempt to persuade the GM even after he has ruled?
Simply put, I feel that you all needed someone with some experience in mafias to show you how to play, instead of starting from scratch. Sometimes, it'll be easier and I can answer certain questions, or I can show you why an analysis is or is not correct.
[remainder of post clipped for space]
Fair enough. Be aware that I have read the Mafia Wiki that gets linked here often (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Being_a_good_IC) and will be keeping an eye on you, for the greater good of the game.
I'll unvote and vote for ToonyMan, as he has yet to face any serious pressure. Could you explain the previous grudge that led you to vote for Bloodbeard (and then quickly about face when called on it)? Also, why are you currently abstaining? And why are you simply dismissing any inquiries into your suspicious behavior? You might like the insanity of the mafia that you are currently running, but I consider this a serious game. No doubt others feel the same.
Free Beer: Post some of your thoughts. You're on and you've only posted once.
dakarian hasn't been on the forums since his one post, personally that doesn't seem very suspicous for a newbie.
As for my lack of posting, first I was waiting for webadict's reply, and then I have been attempting to post for the last half hour or so, but people keep preempting me.
Good. One should never trust someone on what they post or how they post it. Sometimes it is very difficult to figure if someone is scum or not, because they have yet to be read. Newbies can be very difficult, as I have never played a game with them and therefore have no previous information on them.This is serious. I counter with unabstainess!
Vote well....I don't know right now. Hee hee. Day 1's are blarg.
How about Org? I'll change it later or something if something something.
Hmmm...
That's very suspicious. Scum is like that. They're cautious. They don't want to be too bold or they'll make a spectacle of themselves.
What exactly are you trying to say here, ToonyMan?
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I'm not scum? I don't know.
If you mean the quote, well eduren told me to say something so I did.
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I'm not scum? I don't know.
If you mean the quote, well eduren told me to say something so I did.
Are you saying you're not sure if you're not scum?
And that's not very helpful, if you're only posting because someone told you to.
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Unvote BloodBeard. He seems like a good guy, at least for right now.
ToonyMan is acting silly, but that's not out of character for ToonyMan. He's always trying to be funny and usually failing. This doesn't necessarily clear him of suspicion, if he's acting... too silly.
I'm suspecting dakarian, because he's lurking.
eduren and Org are both acting suspiciously, but we need to get dakarian out here and talking.
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ToonyMan is acting silly, but that's not out of character for ToonyMan. He's always trying to be funny and usually failing. This doesn't necessarily clear him of suspicion, if he's acting... too silly.
I'm going to say this right now:
Don't ever let anyone be silly at the town's expense. If he's not participating, he's not helpful, and he should be lynched.
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I'm not scum? I don't know.
If you mean the quote, well eduren told me to say something so I did.
You're still being pretty scummy. Unvote. Toonyman.
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The Whiteboard
Org: ToonyMan
ToonyMan: Free Beer, eduren
Vector: webadict
dakarian: Jim Groovester, Vector
eduren: BloodBeard, dakarian
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Ok. The pain burns. Hee hee. Funny. You do the same thing every mafia webadict. I'm guessing you're scum. Not to sure about eduren though.
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Ok. The pain burns. Hee hee. Funny. You do the same thing every mafia webadict. I'm guessing you're scum. Not to sure about eduren though.
If I do the same thing every mafia, how does that make me scum? And why aren't you voting me if you think I'm scum. Aren't you only random voting right now? Seems pretty odd to do that, doesn't it?
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Lynch me if you think so. It's simple. I'm not scum though. Easy.
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Hes trying really hard not to FoS anyone.
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OoOooOooo....I'm so bad.
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Hes trying really hard not to FoS anyone.
And you're trying really hard to make basic analyses. Perhaps a bit more data would help substantiate your claim.
OoOooOooo....I'm so bad.
Seriously, you're not helping anyone right now.
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webadict and eduren are scum. Easy.
Unvote.
Vote eduren.
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Toonyman,
I asked you a few very innocent questions about your actions approximately one hour ago. Since then, you have replied seven times. In these replies, you have:
-changed your vote
-stated that you are not scum
-accused webadict and eduren of being scum
-not answered any of the original questions
What you are doing is extremely suspicious. It looks to me like you are attempting to set up a smoke screen of misdirection instead of seriously defending yourself. I think you should be lynched. My vote remains on you.
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What were the questions again? I'm sorry.
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Hes trying really hard not to FoS anyone.
And you're trying really hard to make basic analyses. Perhaps a bit more data would help substantiate your claim.
Well he was pretty quick to agree with people about me but all he said was "I agree!". Then he throws out his Org vote hoping to steer conversation away from himself.
Plus this is beginners mafia, get used to basic analysis.
Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
No comment.
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Haha, you scum dog you.
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Im sorry but once again, you are throwing out votes without backing them up.
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Rules question: Can a lynching happen in the middle of the day, or do we have the rest of it to change votes around?
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Blah blah blah. Nobody has proof on day 1.
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So... a question to eduren. Why are you bringing up the post-reviewing warning? Bringing that up in and of itself constitutes a comment--an incomprehensible one.
Also, fake-edit: that's not a vote. That's casting aspersions on your character, which at this point looks pretty muddy. I'm sorry, but you seem to be trying way too hard. If you aren't scum, then what are you, and what are you attempting to protect?
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What were the questions again? I'm sorry.
The post is right there, on page 11:
Could you explain the previous grudge that led you to vote for Bloodbeard (and then quickly about face when called on it)? Also, why are you currently abstaining? And why are you simply dismissing any inquiries into your suspicious behavior? You might like the insanity of the mafia that you are currently running, but I consider this a serious game. No doubt others feel the same.
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Rules question: Can a lynching happen in the middle of the day, or do we have the rest of it to change votes around?
You have until the end of the day to switch around votes all you want. The only time I'll end a day early is if everyone has voted and it seems very unlikely that anyone is going to change.
I'm not sure I've ever done that, actually, but I reserve the right to.
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I believe Toonyman's actions constitute scum.
Oh and i was just pointing out that my post was already written by the time Toonyman voted for me. I had some good points and wanted people to understand that i saw Toonys vote before i posted it. The warning itself wasn't a comment rather a clarification.
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Hes trying really hard not to FoS anyone.
And you're trying really hard to make basic analyses. Perhaps a bit more data would help substantiate your claim.
Well he was pretty quick to agree with people about me but all he said was "I agree!". Then he throws out his Org vote hoping to steer conversation away from himself.
Plus this is beginners mafia, get used to basic analysis.
Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
No comment.
That was a well thought-out analysis. It doesn't have to be long, but it has to be more than, "I see you dislike voting."
The difference between this one, and your last one is that you actually tied two ideas together. And I will not get used to basic analysis. Perhaps you should get used to advanced analysis.
However, you forgot a piece.
webadict and eduren are scum. Easy.
Unvote.
Vote eduren.
He's going for the "easy" lynch. It's a scum tactic to lynch either a lurky or unhelpful townie that is obviously suspicious, instead of the harder to prove, but more likely suspects. Obviously, he can't bother to drag up information on me, and if he does, I will be able to defend myself much easier. He also chooses not to use any information in his post, and simply states an opinion without any relevant premises.
Yes, I think eduren is very suspicious, but what about the others that choose not to post too often like Org, dakarian, Bloodbeard, or Jim Groovester? Have we forgotten them because they were silent?
Blah blah blah. Nobody has proof on day 1.
We try to find proof. We don't do nothing.
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100% guaranteed now. webadict and eduren are scum. I don't care if you vote for me, they are scum.
What were the questions again? I'm sorry.
The post is right there, on page 11:
Could you explain the previous grudge that led you to vote for Bloodbeard (and then quickly about face when called on it)? Also, why are you currently abstaining? And why are you simply dismissing any inquiries into your suspicious behavior? You might like the insanity of the mafia that you are currently running, but I consider this a serious game. No doubt others feel the same.
BloodBeard has a tournament thing and I lost. :'( Alot. I'm town. This is serious.
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Herm. eduren makes several good points about ToonyMan, and they are both still acting suspicious. My vote for dakarian remains unchanged, however, for the reasons I stated in the last post. There's still time to make a more official decision about them later.
Yes, I think eduren is very suspicious, but what about the others that choose not to post too often like Org, dakarian, Bloodbeard, or Jim Groovester? Have we forgotten them because they were silent?
I would say I'm posting frequently enough to say I haven't been silent. Not everybody likes posting when they don't have anything to announce or anything constructive to add to the dialogue.
The way you frequently highlight suspicion over everyone.... I can't decide if you're a townie trying to be genuinely helpful or scum trying to throw us all into chaos with your experience.
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I don't know anyone here so I can't weigh in on webadicts motivations however Toonymans behavior has gone from jokingly nonchalant to panicked and desperate.
He cannot provide evidence of his claims against I nor Web and unless he can, i believe him to be scum.
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100% guaranteed now. webadict and eduren are scum. I don't care if you vote for me, they are scum.
What were the questions again? I'm sorry.
The post is right there, on page 11:
Could you explain the previous grudge that led you to vote for Bloodbeard (and then quickly about face when called on it)? Also, why are you currently abstaining? And why are you simply dismissing any inquiries into your suspicious behavior? You might like the insanity of the mafia that you are currently running, but I consider this a serious game. No doubt others feel the same.
BloodBeard has a tournament thing and I lost. :'( Alot. I'm town. This is serious.
Good. We're making progress. Can you please tell us all what you were trying to do before, ignoring or dismissing anyone who questioned or suspected you? I'm pretty sure it confused the heck out of everyone else in the thread.
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I'm assuming "he" for the rest of this, unless I have some reason to think you're a girl or a robot. Writing out he/she/it is a pain in the ass, so if anyone is offended I extend my apologies.
1. Eduren: shore yourself up, man. You're dropping punctuation and capitalization. Either you're running off for a hot date and you can't be bothered with the shift bar and apostrophes, or you're seriously worried.
Also, please answer my question.
2. As far as those of us who aren't talking:
As I've said previously, I really want to hear dakarian say something. He may be a total noob, but the extreme lack of information seems weird. It's not like dakarian forgot--posting did occur earlier today. He might have been busy. At this point, I'm thinking he's suspicious.
More than lurkiness, Org seems too emotionally reactive. I'm giving him time because he says he has homework, but if he doesn't start talking pretty soon things are going to seem rather weird.
Don't know about BloodBeard or Jim Groovester. Opinions?
3. Jim Groovester, I think you may be mistakenly suspecting webadict due to his role as an IC. He's reminding us we need to be careful and playing a pedagogical game. Of course, that could all be a smoke screen.
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I don't understand any of you. You're all crazies.
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Crazy like a fox!
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1. Eduren: shore yourself up, man. You're dropping punctuation and capitalization. Either you're running off for a hot date and you can't be bothered with the shift bar and apostrophes, or you're seriously worried.
Sorry, Im not exactly a neat typer. If it bugs you you can look at some of my posts before the game, you'll probably see alot of the same mistakes.
Also; I wish.
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Maybe if I make nonsense you'll all understand me? ZVARRI!
HAHAHAHAHAHAH.
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3. Jim Groovester, I think you may be mistakenly suspecting webadict due to his role as an IC. He's reminding us we need to be careful and playing a pedagogical game. Of course, that could all be a smoke screen.
I know, but the way webadict is acting is making me suspicious nonetheless.
Maybe if I make nonsense you'll all understand me? ZVARRI!
HAHAHAHAHAHAH.
Way to not help your cause at all.
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You think I care if you lynch me? If you do I just proved webadict and eduren are scum. Does that mean anything?
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Ah. As far as my statement about your punctuation goes, I mean that you are making more errors than usual. In my experience, it's a reasonably good tell for someone feeling frightened/guilty.
And again: how about that question I asked you? You are acting suspicious in the same way ToonyMan was previously. Your reputation is tarnished further. Attempts to make yourself sympathetic due to lack of hot dates will also not work.
Also, to ToonyMan: if you are a townie, perhaps you should be more helpful. Screwing around with eduren != helpful. We already know he's scummish. The fact that webadict and eduren want to lynch you doesn't mean they're scum, either. It means they think you're scum. Your logic is fallacious.
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What do you want me to do then, leader? I got this figured out man. And my logic is not fartacious.
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You mean this one?
So... a question to eduren. Why are you bringing up the post-reviewing warning? Bringing that up in and of itself constitutes a comment--an incomprehensible one.
Also, fake-edit: that's not a vote. That's casting aspersions on your character, which at this point looks pretty muddy. I'm sorry, but you seem to be trying way too hard. If you aren't scum, then what are you, and what are you attempting to protect?
My answer was here...
I believe Toonyman's actions constitute scum.
Oh and i was just pointing out that my post was already written by the time Toonyman voted for me. I had some good points and wanted people to understand that i saw Toonys vote before i posted it. The warning itself wasn't a comment rather a clarification.
If you need more then let me just say that I believe Toony to be scum and im just trying to get him to slip up even more than he already has.
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Ah, okay. Apologies to eduren, then.
More apologies to ToonyMan, as well. If you feel I'm being overbearing, then I am sorry.
My behavior, however, does not excuse your bad logic.
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BloodBeard asked for Free Beer's thoughts, so I'm going to ask BloodBeard for his thoughts.
BloodBeard, what are your opinions on this whole ToonyMan/eduren/webadict affair?
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BloodBeard asked for Free Beer's thoughts, so I'm going to ask BloodBeard for his thoughts.
BloodBeard, what are your opinions on this whole ToonyMan/eduren/webadict affair?
Since my FoS of Toonyman his responses have gotten even more strange and useless. I'm torn between having my lynch be for him or eduren. Toonyman isn't contributing much of anything but i'm pretty sure that aduren is scum. I don't really have an opinion on webadict yet.
Unlynch
This likely won't be my final lynch, I just want dakarian to get talking when he comes on. I don't think he's lurking, just not online.
Btw webadict, untill I went offline a couple hours ago (we can't be on all the time) I was one of the highest posters, above you even. Not that it means anything but I don't see why I was grouped with them.
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Mind if I ask why you are still certain of my scumminess.
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Mind if I ask why you are still certain of my scumminess.
Your questionable first posts are still stuck with me a little. Your recent postings have changed for the better but something still doesn't feel right.
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We also need to hear from Org about what's been going on so far.
Mind if I ask why you are still certain of my scumminess.
Because in your last three posts you've stated that you believe ToonyMan to be scum without providing any compelling evidence aside from citing ToonyMan's behavior. ToonyMan's not helping his case at all, but the way you're repeating yourself tells me that you're trying to divert suspicion away from yourself, and ToonyMan provided a convenient avenue for that diversion.
I'm thinking you're probably scum.
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The Whiteboard
ToonyMan: (2) - Free Beer, eduren
Vector: (1) - webadict
dakarian: (3) - Jim Groovester, Vector, BloodBeard
eduren: (2) - dakarian, ToonyMan
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Seeing as my evidence was in previous posts i did not want to list it again. If you insist on more then here it is...
Toony has, in trying to defend himself, accused both myself and webadict of being scum. His only evidence so far being that we are out to get him. He, instead of giving a reasonable defence, has tried to further split the vote.
I have already admitted that my early behavior was scummy and attributed it to a lack of experience. I was surprised by the backlash and mistakenly tried turn conversation away from myself. Afterwards, in my opinion, i acted sufficiently "townie" and did my part in investigating suspicious behavior.
I do not know Toony, and have no idea if his behavior is normal, but from what I have seen, my vote still stands. If people would like to speak on his behalf, i would like to hear it.
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The Whiteboard
Org: (1) - ToonyMan
ToonyMan: (2) - Free Beer, eduren
Vector: (1) - webadict
dakarian: (3) - Jim Groovester, Vector, BloodBeard
eduren: (2) - dakarian, ToonyMan
[emphasis mine]
Does ToonyMan have a role which allows him to vote twice?
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Well of course. I'm like awesome that way. ;D
No actually, my votes on eduren right now.
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You've got double vote... :D
sorry about that.... Fixed... (I forgot to erase org's line)
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Seeing as my evidence was in previous posts i did not want to list it again. If you insist on more then here it is...
Toony has, in trying to defend himself, accused both myself and webadict of being scum. His only evidence so far being that we are out to get him. He, instead of giving a reasonable defence, has tried to further split the vote.
I have already admitted that my early behavior was scummy and attributed it to a lack of experience. I was surprised by the backlash and mistakenly tried turn conversation away from myself. Afterwards, in my opinion, i acted sufficiently "townie" and did my part in investigating suspicious behavior.
I do not know Toony, and have no idea if his behavior is normal, but from what I have seen, my vote still stands. If people would like to speak on his behalf, i would like to hear it.
Most people don't act. You kinda either are or are not.
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I was just pointing out that my actions became more in line with what I am once I got over the initial experience.
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I was just pointing out that my actions became more in line with what I am once I got over the initial experience.
Yes, I suppose that is true. Seems a little pushing went a long way.
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If you look at Paranormal Round 7, this is pretty much what Toony was like there. He was found to be a regular townsperson, so he could either be acting the same to make people think he's a townsperson again or he's acting the same to try and tell us that he is a townsperson again. WIFOM.
Either way we might get more information from his death then when he's alive. That's probably how we should do the first lynch if we can't decide, whose death would we be able to draw the most conclusions from?
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If you look at Paranormal Round 7, this is pretty much what Toony was like there. He was found to be a regular townsperson, so he could either be acting the same to make people think he's a townsperson again or he's acting the same to try and tell us that he is a townsperson again. WIFOM.
Either way we might get more information from his death then when he's alive. That's probably how we should do the first lynch if we can't decide, whose death would we be able to draw the most conclusions from?
Exactly what information are we gleaning from ToonyMan's death? I think we are merely benefiting from his lack of helping the town. His death won't prove anything other than whether he is or is not mafia.
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eduren is pretty hell bent on his lynching so it might point to him if Toony was found to be a townie. I didn't say we would draw alot of info but that would be more then we're getting from him now. I'm sure there are better candadites.
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eduren is pretty hell bent on his lynching so it might point to him if Toony was found to be a townie. I didn't say we would draw alot of info but that would be more then we're getting from him now. I'm sure there are better candadites.
Who's a better candidate?
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I'm not sure, that's why I asked.
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1. I was gone for most of the day. I have a 2nd shift job and it JUST left me go home. I slipped in that one post early on to show everyone that I WILL be around and to help the random vote spree. Seemed to work well so for now UnVote till I read back and see what you guys were talking about.
As such I was NOT lurking and dislike people marking me scum for it, but fussing about 1st round voting is silly anyway.
Now to go back and look through the blitzkrieg of posts. Replies in a bit.
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I think lynching ToonyMan would be a mistake. He's bumbling and incompetent and incapable of defending himself, but he still seems innocent to me. And if he were guilty, would he suddenly throw up this post (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=34294.msg689766#msg689766), which seems like genuine frustration, just to throw us off? That would be uncharacteristically competent of him.
Anyways, eduren and webadict, along with Free Beer, are the people most suspicious of ToonyMan. In Free Beer's case, I get the impression that he's doing genuine scum hunting. In eduren's case, he voted to lynch ToonyMan immediately after webadict began pointing out flaws in ToonyMan's behavior. This leads me to suspect that both webadict and eduren are scum, and that eduren is taking cues from the more experienced player. Furthermore, eduren stated three times his belief in ToonyMan's guiltiness, which seems two times too many, and his explanation of ToonyMan's guiltiness has not convinced me.
Then we come to webadict. I'm not completely certain webadict is scum, because he's giving me mixed impressions. He could be either a townie trying to help or scum trying to disperse suspicion. I still haven't decided.
Thus, my conclusions are that, unless others decide to remain suspiciously silent, we should lynch eduren.
I can see why people play this game, and why it's so popular. This is really damn fun.
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Im sorry if I seem hell bent on Toonyman, but the reason I have stated it multiple times is because I have been asked multiple times.
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Oh and if you look at the record, I was the first to suspect Toonyman.
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I'm keeping with dakarian until he finishes getting the same grilling the rest of us had to go through, but otherwise Jim Groovester's proposal seems reasonable enough.
And to ToonyMan, I was wondering if you could explain precisely which behaviors are making you think the rest of us are crazy.
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Well, with much of the discussion happening already, I'm left to analyze what everyone has said so far. At this point, everyone has chimed into the game.
To be true, there's a lot of messy actions going on. Toony, as others have noted, is being VERY silly and attracting a lot of attention. Something tells me, though, that I'd want to focus on others, though. I'll be blunt: Toony doesn't seem blend in well, which makes him a poor towny but an even worse mafia.
Thus my attention turns to Eduren.
Eduren, after this post I'm going to go over the early posts again but if I'm reading this right, you are wrong in that you were the first to suspect Toony. Blood was the first to FOS toony due to his odd actions while Free Beer was the first to Vote. You came in afterwards. In fact, ALL of your accusations came AFTER someone did it first (first to bandwagon Blood, Threw suspicion on Org AFTER org said he was doing homework, which was after he was voted on, then turned to Toony).
You've played this game before (enough to be shocked that we didn't have Night first: many games do a Night first, but not this forum) yet you perform a VERY 'scummish' move of bandwagoning instead of hitting someone random (I had to change my choice twice to keep my first vote random myself :P). You know enough to know that's scummish but not enough to know to avoid doing it? After that, you proceed to jump in when the town focuses on each person? You're playing VERY defensively and it bugs me.
As such, while my vote on you early on was just random fun, mind if I do a true FoS on you and ask this question? If you believe Toonyman is scum, just like the town, who do you best suspect is the OTHER scum? Who's the one that the town hasn't spotted yet, according to your opinion, and why?
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I'm keeping with dakarian until he finishes getting the same grilling the rest of us had to go through, but otherwise Jim Groovester's proposal seems reasonable enough.
And to ToonyMan, I was wondering if you could explain precisely which behaviors are making you think the rest of us are crazy.
Probably the best I can do for now is to get myself active while I have the time to do it. I can prove myself by helping the town and letting my actions show my innocence. After that, you'll either believe me, have questions for me to answer, or find something wrong that will need to be grilled.
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I'm satisfied by what you've posted, dakarian. There's still the possibility you're some super duper awesome mafioso who knows exactly how to conceal his deceit, but that seems a bit absurd. And it would be irrelevant for the first lynch anyway, since we need to focus on the most obvious suspects.
Unvote dakarian.
Org, homework or not, you need to speak up. You can start with your thoughts on the webadict/eduren/ToonyMan affair.
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As such, while my vote on you early on was just random fun, mind if I do a true FoS on you and ask this question? If you believe Toonyman is scum, just like the town, who do you best suspect is the OTHER scum? Who's the one that the town hasn't spotted yet, according to your opinion, and why?
I would have to say one of the people that have been questioning people, but not making their intentions clear. So that could mean possibly FreeBeer, webadict, Vector, or Jim Groovester. "Random scumhunting" could be an effective way too participate yet not reveal anything about yourself.
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You do know you dont have to vote me if you are like:
ZOMG ORG IS ACTING ALL SUZPISCUS. I DOUBT ITS BECAUSE HE IS SLEEPING.
You can fos.
Meh, TOonyman is all suspicious because he plays for teh lulz.
He probably is mafia. Maybe eduren too.
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The Whiteboard
Org: (1): Jim Groovester
ToonyMan: (2) - Free Beer, eduren
Vector: (1) - webadict
dakarian: (2) - Vector, BloodBeard
eduren: (1) - ToonyMan
Not Voting (2) - Org, dakarian.
------------------------------
Rules question: Can a lynching happen in the middle of the day, or do we have the rest of it to change votes around?
Usually (in mafiascum and other sites) you'll find that once you reach the lynching limit (where the last vote is called a hammer) the day abruptly ends allowing no further discussion.
Here, it's a bit different as Meph explained.
Also, next time you ask the mod a question you should start with MOD: so he can easyly notice it.
My color from now on, will be blue so you can easyly identify me.
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As such, while my vote on you early on was just random fun, mind if I do a true FoS on you and ask this question? If you believe Toonyman is scum, just like the town, who do you best suspect is the OTHER scum? Who's the one that the town hasn't spotted yet, according to your opinion, and why?
I would have to say one of the people that have been questioning people, but not making their intentions clear. So that could mean possibly FreeBeer, webadict, Vector, or Jim Groovester. "Random scumhunting" could be an effective way too participate yet not reveal anything about yourself.
FREE BEER!? Random scumhunting!?
Free Beer did exactly two major moves so far: a randomvote on Web at the very start and, once web posted, started on Toony. That's about as UNrandom as they come. What's more, my question assumed that you are right in saying that Toony was mafia. if that's true, Free Beer would be bussing Toony.
But WHY would Free Beer START the bus on Toony? The only person who noticed he was alive was Blood and he was just FoSing while focusing on you. The town was looking at mostly at me and org for being silent and you for being awkward. Yes, Toony started acting VERY off by that time so it might be a "OMG he's going to get caught" then pre-empting things, but that's a VERY crazy gambit to play there. However, you didn't think of "Bussing to look pro-town", you thought "Randomness".
Webadict: Random voted for Org for the lulz, then focused on Vector. He's STILL focused on Vector via Vote. Beyond that, he's basically been hunting for scumtells or slip up in logic but not making any declarations.
Vector: He's been on me since almost day 1: one of the first, if I get it right, to dislike my not posting and is putting pressure on me now since no one else is. He didn't even randomvote!
..yes I realize I'm defending the person that's the most aimed at trying to lynch me. ???
Jim: This one wasn't a bad choice: Anti-lurker vote for Org, but kept vote in once org posted and didn't explain why at first. OMGUSed voted Blood, then anti-lurker voted me though after Vector started up on it.
So those are the 4 people you are suspicious of for randomness, even though you've been more random than three of them, one would have to be doing a VERY crazy gambit on first day to be involved, and the last is about as varied as you are. Meanwhile, you're not interested in Org or me who havn't voted and kept mostly silent. You're also not interested in Blood, though he's been more 'random' (randomvote by going through the list for actives, leading to voting for Jim, then switch to you later, then FoSed Toony, then poked at FreeBeer) than most of the ones you've mentioned.
Toony bugs me since he's NOT being helpful at ALL and I wouldn't cry if we lynched him, but my gut said it was Too Easy and to check out the others. Now I see why. So far, you've been doing nothing but jumping on other people's arguments, slipping little comments here or there, and defending yourself at any bit of suspicion. In fact, your
Oh and if you look at the record, I was the first to suspect Toonyman.
Means you either missed a good bit of the conversation, or you are Lying (http://"http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Lynch_All_Liars").
You're defensive, you're hypocritical, and you're either not doing your research or your lying. You bandwagon, and you claim inexperience yet know a good bit of how the game works. You also was bothered that there was no Night start even though night starts are better for mafia than town (mafia gets one free kill that the town can't really use for analysis). I'm done looking for suspicious activity from you and would really want a reason why I'm wrong for Voting Eduren
Too Long Didn't Read Version:
-You're more random than your 'these people are random and might be scum' choices
-Toony bugs me, but you look like scum
-Vote Eduren
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Btw, sorry for the wall of text. When I get going, I end up doing essays. I'll try to be calm about them or, at least, plop a summary :P
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Btw, sorry for the wall of text. When I get going, I end up doing essays. I'll try to be calm about them or, at least, plop a summary :P
No, I rather enjoy long walls of text. I did them for a while, but they get rather lengthy, so I try to avoid them.
However, while I think eduren may be scum, I'm leading more for Jim Groovester, as I'll point out why:
I'm satisfied by what you've posted, dakarian. There's still the possibility you're some super duper awesome mafioso who knows exactly how to conceal his deceit, but that seems a bit absurd. And it would be irrelevant for the first lynch anyway, since we need to focus on the most obvious suspects.
Unvote dakarian.
Org, homework or not, you need to speak up. You can start with your thoughts on the webadict/eduren/ToonyMan affair.
He thinks mafiosos are super duper awesome. More importantly though, there isn't really a webadict/eduren/ToonyMan affair, but he's making it seem like there is.
I think lynching ToonyMan would be a mistake. He's bumbling and incompetent and incapable of defending himself, but he still seems innocent to me. And if he were guilty, would he suddenly throw up this post (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=34294.msg689766#msg689766), which seems like genuine frustration, just to throw us off? That would be uncharacteristically competent of him.
Anyways, eduren and webadict, along with Free Beer, are the people most suspicious of ToonyMan. In Free Beer's case, I get the impression that he's doing genuine scum hunting. In eduren's case, he voted to lynch ToonyMan immediately after webadict began pointing out flaws in ToonyMan's behavior. This leads me to suspect that both webadict and eduren are scum, and that eduren is taking cues from the more experienced player. Furthermore, eduren stated three times his belief in ToonyMan's guiltiness, which seems two times too many, and his explanation of ToonyMan's guiltiness has not convinced me.
Then we come to webadict. I'm not completely certain webadict is scum, because he's giving me mixed impressions. He could be either a townie trying to help or scum trying to disperse suspicion. I still haven't decided.
Thus, my conclusions are that, unless others decide to remain suspiciously silent, we should lynch eduren.
I can see why people play this game, and why it's so popular. This is really damn fun.
So, first eduren is taking cues from me, but then again I'm only 50/50 mafia? Doesn't make much sense to me, unless you're going with the piggyback argument that eduren is following whoever he can. That'd make more sense.
You know what Jim? How about this: If you think I am scum, try voting for me, and giving reasons. If you think anyone is partners with me, I will recommend voting for me, as wouldn't I be the most logical choice? I would be more experienced, would I not? Until that point actually happens, I will vote Jim Groovester. You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
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1. Very glad someone likes my walls. I havn't been able to stop them for years now so avoidance won't help.
2. Jim...is a lurker hunter. He went for me when I was silent. He's after Org now because he's been silent. I get the impression that he wants people to talk and hates the quiet ones. He's suspicious of you because.. good &W*(# I plopped a FoS on you and I havn't dropped that. Anyone that's read Para would be deadly afraid of you.
So I guess I'm flipped from you: Jim COULD be scum, but Eduren IS scum, and the more he talks the worse it gets. I'm tempted to say that Jim, Org, and Toony are matters for Day 2 unless Eduren can explain away my accusations. Easylurk hunting, lurking, and craziness isn't as bad as bandwagoning/lying/randomness in one lovely package.
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Before it's said, the reason why I, and probably others, havn't Voted for Web but keep fussing about him is because the evidence is purely on Metagaming: he played VERY well in the Para matches and he's the 'expert among the newbies'. I watch him for a mistake because there will probably be only ONE mistake he'll make the whole game if he's scum, and if it's missed it's over.
Sidenote: I'll be going to work soon, so it'll probably left to the rest of you to see how Eduren responds to me. I do suggest, though, that if he can't respond properly to what I brought up that we lynch him today and attend the others later.
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I highly doubt dakarian is scum now. No scum would post so much after being called out for lurking. I also agree with him, mostly because he's basically talking for me. What he has said about eduren is what I think is true. eduren should flip up scum. I'm pretty sure. My vote stays, even if it's a nonsensical OMGUS.
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The Whiteboard
Jim Groovester: webadict
Org: Jim Groovester
ToonyMan: Free Beer, eduren
dakarian: BloodBeard, Vector
eduren: ToonyMan, dakarian
Quick reminder: Day 1 ends ~10am Pacific Thursday
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Toonyman,
Currently there is a three way tie between you, eduren, and dakarian. Both of the people who are currently on dakarian have the fact that he was lurking as their reason for voting for him. When they get on, they will no doubt shift their votes elsewhere, probably resolving the tie. If you are town as you claim to be, this is your chance to acquit yourself. It is in your best interest to explain your previous actions. I think everyone here knows that what you did was extremely suspicious. I personally think you are trying to hide something, and that what you are trying to hide is the fact that you are scum. If you can give us a good reason for what you are doing, you will seem much less suspicious.
Please answer with something other than just "I'm not scum!!! :-[ :-[ :-["
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If I was scum I wouldn't draw attention to myself like a stupid idiot.
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If I was scum I wouldn't draw attention to myself like a stupid idiot.
So you are saying that you intentionally drew suspicion on yourself in order to convince everyone that you are not scum?
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No, so I can get the scum to try to bandwagon me. I think it worked sortof well.
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No, so I can get the scum to try to bandwagon me. I think it worked sortof well.
So then what were you trying to hide? Was it just the fact that you were acting as bait?
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I never thought I was hiding anything. I started the game rather silly like, but in turn I was able to get my suspicions straight.
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I never thought I was hiding anything. I started the game rather silly like, but in turn I was able to get my suspicions straight.
Alright, I feel much better about you now that you have explained your motivations. Unvote. However, be advised that Mafia is a team game - you confused pretty much everyone except you, and that was not very helpful to everyone else. While you may have your suspicions straight now, we don't.
BloodBeard, you've been fairly indecisive of late. What's going through your mind?
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I don't have time to read through everything and respond right now, but I did get skim through dakarian's big post and I unvote. I'll be back
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Read through everything since yesterday and i'm satisfied with dakarian's responses to not suspect him, yet.
Freebeer: I've voiced my concerns for Toony but i've always held that eduren is my prime suspect. Jim however is starting to draw my attention by posting multiple times about a eduren-toonyman-webadict row, which would be true in eduren and toonyman but i'm not sure why webadict is included there.
He seems overly suspicous about webadict without any of what i'd consider reasonable evidence. If webadict wasn't scum then he would most likely be a target for the scum considering his experience.
My concerns for Toony have been lightening as of late and I don't think he should be lynched. My primary concern before was that he was acting too strange for the town to get any information but he seems better now.
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Unvote, post-wall-of-text. Thinking...
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Org: Name one person you think is scum and one person you think is town, explanations for both please.
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Alright, time to answer questions.
However, while I think eduren may be scum, I'm leading more for Jim Groovester, as I'll point out why:
I'm satisfied by what you've posted, dakarian. There's still the possibility you're some super duper awesome mafioso who knows exactly how to conceal his deceit, but that seems a bit absurd.
He thinks mafiosos are super duper awesome. More importantly though, there isn't really a webadict/eduren/ToonyMan affair, but he's making it seem like there is.
When I said super duper awesome, I was referring to skill level. A more appropriate way to put would have been 'incredibly skillful' or 'masterfully deceitful' or what have you. I wasn't saying that I think mafiosos are 'cool' or 'wicked awesome'.
My reasoning
So, first eduren is taking cues from me, but then again I'm only 50/50 mafia? Doesn't make much sense to me, unless you're going with the piggyback argument that eduren is following whoever he can. That'd make more sense.
Yeah, that's essentially what I was getting at. eduren is piggybacking on other people's arguments. The timing of his criticisms of ToonyMan and yours yesterday made me think that the two of you may have been working together, and it generally seemed like the two of you were ToonyMan's most fervent accusers, which is why I referred to the tussle yesterday between the three of you as the webadict/eduren/ToonyMan affair. However, I'm now getting the impression that eduren was acting independently, and you were just doing an excellent job of highlighting suspicious behavior.
You know what Jim? How about this: If you think I am scum, try voting for me, and giving reasons. If you think anyone is partners with me, I will recommend voting for me, as wouldn't I be the most logical choice? I would be more experienced, would I not? Until that point actually happens, I will vote Jim Groovester. You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
Ehh, I'm not ready to do that yet. Besides, the more you talk the less suspicious I get, and the more Org doesn't talk the more suspicious I get of him. He's yet to answer anything, aside from posting suspicious comments yesterday and generally being defiant and uncooperative.
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Lurkers. I'm currently satisfied with dakarian's logic-blocks, as he has (in my mind, at least) undone his lurking. I find it difficult to believe that Org has absolutely zero time to do anything but defend himself, however. At the moment, I'd mark him as the member who has contributed the least to the town's efforts. Eduren seems quite scummy, but at least we know something about him. Even data on his incompetence is better than no data whatsoever.
So, Org for now, with the hope of pressuring him into some analytical contributions.
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Lurkers. I'm currently satisfied with dakarian's logic-blocks, as he has (in my mind, at least) undone his lurking. I find it difficult to believe that Org has absolutely zero time to do anything but defend himself, however. At the moment, I'd mark him as the member who has contributed the least to the town's efforts. Eduren seems quite scummy, but at least we know something about him. Even data on his incompetence is better than no data whatsoever.
So, Org for now, with the hope of pressuring him into some analytical contributions.
Wat.
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The great Org hath spoken!
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Is there some problem?
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Read through everything since yesterday and i'm satisfied with dakarian's responses to not suspect him, yet.
Freebeer: I've voiced my concerns for Toony but i've always held that eduren is my prime suspect. Jim however is starting to draw my attention by posting multiple times about a eduren-toonyman-webadict row, which would be true in eduren and toonyman but i'm not sure why webadict is included there.
He seems overly suspicous about webadict without any of what i'd consider reasonable evidence. If webadict wasn't scum then he would most likely be a target for the scum considering his experience.
My concerns for Toony have been lightening as of late and I don't think he should be lynched. My primary concern before was that he was acting too strange for the town to get any information but he seems better now.
You state that you suspect ToonyMan less because he is better now, but eduren is your prime suspect mainly because of his previous behavior, even though he is better now. In your mind, what is the difference between the two?
Also, is there a reason why you don't suspect webadict?
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Ughhh. Just get it over with. Nothing i can say now.
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Is there some problem?
Yes. The reason I have to defend myself is because people keep accusing me.
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The Whiteboard
BloodBeard: Free Beer
Jim Groovester: webadict
Org: Jim Groovester, Vector
ToonyMan: eduren
eduren: BloodBeard, ToonyMan, dakarian
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Read through everything since yesterday and i'm satisfied with dakarian's responses to not suspect him, yet.
Freebeer: I've voiced my concerns for Toony but i've always held that eduren is my prime suspect. Jim however is starting to draw my attention by posting multiple times about a eduren-toonyman-webadict row, which would be true in eduren and toonyman but i'm not sure why webadict is included there.
He seems overly suspicous about webadict without any of what i'd consider reasonable evidence. If webadict wasn't scum then he would most likely be a target for the scum considering his experience.
My concerns for Toony have been lightening as of late and I don't think he should be lynched. My primary concern before was that he was acting too strange for the town to get any information but he seems better now.
You state that you suspect ToonyMan less because he is better now, but eduren is your prime suspect mainly because of his previous behavior, even though he is better now. In your mind, what is the difference between the two?
Also, is there a reason why you don't suspect webadict?
The difference is that eduren has showed scummy behaviour, admitted to showing scummy behaviour and Toony has just been weird and confusing. As I said I've been concerned about whether he will be useful to the town but he hasn't done anything specifically scummy.
Is there a reason why I should suspect webadict? (actual question)
Org:
Org: Name one person you think is scum and one person you think is town, explanations for both please.
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So Org, the problem that I see here is that you are playing a solely defensive game. Take dakarian as an example, if you like: he had stuff to do, and then proved his usefulness to the town via a wall of text. You've only attempted to assert your own innocence and deflect attacks. That behavior is not exactly helpful (and cautiousness is also a scum-tell), which is why I'm voting for you at the moment.
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Read through everything since yesterday and i'm satisfied with dakarian's responses to not suspect him, yet.
Freebeer: I've voiced my concerns for Toony but i've always held that eduren is my prime suspect. Jim however is starting to draw my attention by posting multiple times about a eduren-toonyman-webadict row, which would be true in eduren and toonyman but i'm not sure why webadict is included there.
He seems overly suspicous about webadict without any of what i'd consider reasonable evidence. If webadict wasn't scum then he would most likely be a target for the scum considering his experience.
My concerns for Toony have been lightening as of late and I don't think he should be lynched. My primary concern before was that he was acting too strange for the town to get any information but he seems better now.
You state that you suspect ToonyMan less because he is better now, but eduren is your prime suspect mainly because of his previous behavior, even though he is better now. In your mind, what is the difference between the two?
Also, is there a reason why you don't suspect webadict?
The difference is that eduren has showed scummy behaviour, admitted to showing scummy behaviour and Toony has just been weird and confusing. As I said I've been concerned about whether he will be useful to the town but he hasn't done anything specifically scummy.
Is there a reason why I should suspect webadict? (actual question)
[remainder of post clipped for space]
So when ToonyMan OMGUS'd eduren and accused webadict, that was not scummy behavior to you? If it is not, then why do you suspect Jim, who is doing much the same thing at this point?
Not suspecting someone on day one suggests that you have more information than you should - something that only a scum player should have.
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So Org, the problem that I see here is that you are playing a solely defensive game. Take dakarian as an example, if you like: he had stuff to do, and then proved his usefulness to the town via a wall of text. You've only attempted to assert your own innocence and deflect attacks. That behavior is not exactly helpful (and cautiousness is also a scum-tell), which is why I'm voting for you at the moment.
Well, your scum hunt isnt working.
And I think that Vector is either deflecting attention to someone else or is trying to scumhunt or something.
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Defiance, lack of cooperation, failure to explain himself, failure to do anything helpful. Org isn't playing with the town, he's playing on his own. If he's not going to try and be even remotely helpful, I say we lynch him.
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Well, maybe. It seems that instead of the three lynch targets we had before (ToonyMan, dakarian, eduren), we're down to eduren and Org.
So, you two: why should we lynch the other one? If you think the other person is not lynch-worthy, please bring up a third person you want to see dead and explain why you wouldn't attack your counterpart.
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Well, maybe I havent been helpful. Kinda hard when you are all accusing me with meh reasons. Good thing you guys arent Spanish Inquisitors. *chuckles*
Although they were just accusing people and rigging trials. Eh. Mafia is basically the same then.
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Well, maybe. It seems that instead of the three lynch targets we had before (ToonyMan, dakarian, eduren), we're down to eduren and Org.
Why is Toonyman no longer on the table? Multiple people have voiced opinions that Toony could be lynched on his unhelpfulness alone.
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Ah, okay. It looked to me like suspicion had turned away from ToonyMan for the moment as votes rotated towards you, but upon more careful consideration I suppose you're right. If you would like to convince everyone else that ToonyMan needs to be lynched today, though, I'll put him back on the list.
I'll ask ToonyMan as well, then, and change the question a little.
To ToonyMan, Org, and eduren:
Out of the three people we seem to have up for serious lynch consideration, which should we pick? Additionally, why do you think the other two (e.g. probably yourself and one other person) should be passed over for today?
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Ah, okay. It looked to me like suspicion had turned away from ToonyMan for the moment as votes rotated towards you, but upon more careful consideration I suppose you're right. If you would like to convince everyone else that ToonyMan needs to be lynched today, though, I'll put him back on the list.
I'll ask ToonyMan as well, then, and change the question a little.
To ToonyMan, Org, and eduren:
Out of the three people we seem to have up for serious lynch consideration, which should we pick? Additionally, why do you think the other two (e.g. probably yourself and one other person) should be passed over for today?
I want Vector and Org gone. It's them. They're the mafia.
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Proof, for either or both of us?
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Ah, okay. It looked to me like suspicion had turned away from ToonyMan for the moment as votes rotated towards you, but upon more careful consideration I suppose you're right. If you would like to convince everyone else that ToonyMan needs to be lynched today, though, I'll put him back on the list.
I'll ask ToonyMan as well, then, and change the question a little.
To ToonyMan, Org, and eduren:
Out of the three people we seem to have up for serious lynch consideration, which should we pick? Additionally, why do you think the other two (e.g. probably yourself and one other person) should be passed over for today?
I want Vector and Org gone. It's them. They're the mafia.
What.
No, I am not mafia.
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To ToonyMan, Org, and eduren:
Out of the three people we seem to have up for serious lynch consideration, which should we pick? Additionally, why do you think the other two (e.g. probably yourself and one other person) should be passed over for today?
To lynch:
Toonyman: His silliness and lack of coherent defense other than "OMG they're out to get me" is not only scummy, but if he is indeed townie, it is not a very team oriented type of play
To keep around for now:
Org: His general absenteeism is not really damning, especially on the first day.
Eduren: I have demonstrated a willingness to explain my views and votes and I have campaigned against Toonyman, at the cost of my credibility. If i were scum, wouldn't I be more concerned with my own skin rather than that of Toonyman?
Answer some general questions about me:
Experience?: Some people are confused about my level of experience in this game and I would like to clear up some misunderstandings. I have played the game of mafia on many occasions, for years. The biggest difference was that those games were live. They were merely a way to pass the time and get a few kicks. There was no deep analysis and games lasted less than an hour. Most of the time was spent making wild accusations and laughing our asses off. The most anyone really did to defend themselves was to say "Really, me?!? Why me?" This may be the source of some of my weird behavior in the beginning and i have since become more reserved and thoughtful.
Night first: It wasn't a big deal to me, just came as a surprise. I didn't expect that part of the rules to change because it had never changed for me.
First to suspect Toonyman: Im sorry if i stated that wrong, but what i meant by it was related to the supposed piggybacking on web. I had pointed out suspicious activity of Toonyman before webadict had. Thats all that i meant by it.
Anything else?
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Proof, for either or both of us?
I want something from you first: Prove to me that you are NOT mafia. Do it. Right now.
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I would but then I would be mod-killed.
Really that is the only way I can prove it. I could be lying if I said anything else.
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I would but then I would be mod-killed.
Really that is the only way I can prove it. I could be lying if I said anything else.
So, you're not even going to try to defend yourself?
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How about a reason not to then?
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I would but then I would be mod-killed.
Really that is the only way I can prove it. I could be lying if I said anything else.
So, you're not even going to try to defend yourself?
No defense is the best defense.
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I would but then I would be mod-killed.
Really that is the only way I can prove it. I could be lying if I said anything else.
So, you're not even going to try to defend yourself?
No defense is the best defense.
That's a lie. An attempted defense is the best defense.
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I would but then I would be mod-killed.
Really that is the only way I can prove it. I could be lying if I said anything else.
So, you're not even going to try to defend yourself?
No defense is the best defense.
That's a lie. An attempted defense is the best defense.
Did you read what I had first posted in this pyramid.
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I want Vector and Org gone. It's them. They're the mafia.
Proof, for either or both of us?
I want something from you first: Prove to me that you are NOT mafia. Do it. Right now.
The suddenness of this accusation and the suddenly confrontational attitude is alarming. Tell us why you think Vector is mafia.
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To ToonyMan, Org, and eduren:
Out of the three people we seem to have up for serious lynch consideration, which should we pick? Additionally, why do you think the other two (e.g. probably yourself and one other person) should be passed over for today?
You should pick eduren. Org is being his usually self (although he does this both mafia and town) so we can talk about him later. I should not be lynched because I found scum. Aha!
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I would but then I would be mod-killed.
Really that is the only way I can prove it. I could be lying if I said anything else.
So, you're not even going to try to defend yourself?
No defense is the best defense.
That's a lie. An attempted defense is the best defense.
Did you read what I had first posted in this pyramid.
I did. So, you think that you are not able to be defended against?
I want Vector and Org gone. It's them. They're the mafia.
Proof, for either or both of us?
I want something from you first: Prove to me that you are NOT mafia. Do it. Right now.
The suddenness of this accusation and the suddenly confrontational attitude is alarming. Tell us why you think Vector is mafia.
Why simply Vector? Why not Org as well? Are we leaving him out of this?
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Org, have you even voted? Do something of significance or I will cast the deciding vote against you.
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Why simply Vector? Why not Org as well? Are we leaving him out of this?
Because Org's a punk and I don't care if he gets offed.
Will you now answer the question? Once again, why do you suspect Vector is mafia, and how are you so certain?
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So when ToonyMan OMGUS'd eduren and accused webadict, that was not scummy behavior to you? If it is not, then why do you suspect Jim, who is doing much the same thing at this point?
Not suspecting someone on day one suggests that you have more information than you should - something that only a scum player should have.
Not suspecting someone on day one suggests that I don't find them to be suspicious over other people. I thought I implied that in my question, sorry if I didn't make that obvious.
Considering that that is typical behaviour of Toony looking back at paranormal 7, no, it didn't seem scummy to me and I don't think anyone else took it seriously.
Org: Maybe people wouldn't be accusing you of things if you helped out and gave your opinions. I've asked you twice now to name someone you think is scum and someone you think is town if you've ignored both. I wasn't accusing you of lurking or anything and just wanted to know what you think but you still never responded.
This whole Vector Org Webadict thing is really confusing me. Org hasn't been active enough to give me much of an opinion of him (although thats a but scummy in itself) and Vectors call-out to ToonyMan, Org, and eduren suggest that he could be scum trying to mask his accomplice among 2 other names to try and form a power group or something. Webadict sudden accusation seems a little weird, too wierd which suggest that he might just be trying to get a reaction out of the others.
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God I hate not being able to edit. I always type in a rush and make alot of spelling mistakes.
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This whole Vector Org Webadict thing is really confusing me. Org hasn't been active enough to give me much of an opinion of him (although thats a but scummy in itself) and Vectors call-out to ToonyMan, Org, and eduren suggest that he could be scum trying to mask his accomplice among 2 other names to try and form a power group or something. Webadict sudden accusation seems a little weird, too wierd which suggest that he might just be trying to get a reaction out of the others.
I didn't see what Vector did quite the same way you did. I think he was trying to give the three primary suspects, based on what we all had said and concluded about them, a chance to talk before we make a final decision about one of them. I don't think he was trying to mask himself or his accomplice behind an accusation. Still though, he hasn't responded since webadict accused him of being mafia, so that's still a little suspicious, but I'm willing to give Vector a chance.
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Why is it when there's a "thing," it's always something to do with me?
Anyhow
Why simply Vector? Why not Org as well? Are we leaving him out of this?
Because Org's a punk and I don't care if he gets offed.
Will you now answer the question? Once again, why do you suspect Vector is mafia, and how are you so certain?
I suspect Vector is mafia because he IS mafia. That's pretty obvious. I need him to tell you why he's not mafia. I can't do that, considering I'm not him, nor am I able to defend him.
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Not suspecting someone on day one suggests that I don't find them to be suspicious over other people. I thought I implied that in my question, sorry if I didn't make that obvious.
Considering that that is typical behaviour of Toony looking back at paranormal 7, no, it didn't seem scummy to me and I don't think anyone else took it seriously.
Org: Maybe people wouldn't be accusing you of things if you helped out and gave your opinions. I've asked you twice now to name someone you think is scum and someone you think is town if you've ignored both. I wasn't accusing you of lurking or anything and just wanted to know what you think but you still never responded.
This whole Vector Org Webadict thing is really confusing me. Org hasn't been active enough to give me much of an opinion of him (although thats a but scummy in itself) and Vectors call-out to ToonyMan, Org, and eduren suggest that he could be scum trying to mask his accomplice among 2 other names to try and form a power group or something. Webadict sudden accusation seems a little weird, too wierd which suggest that he might just be trying to get a reaction out of the others.
If ToonyMan's behavior was not scummy to you, why do you suspect Jim? You said previously that you suspected him on grounds that he accused both eduren and webadict, which is exactly what Toonyman did.
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I suspect Vector is mafia because he IS mafia. That's pretty obvious. I need him to tell you why he's not mafia. I can't do that, considering I'm not him, nor am I able to defend him.
That is by far the weakest argument for the strongest accusation in this game yet.
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I suspect Vector is mafia because he IS mafia. That's pretty obvious. I need him to tell you why he's not mafia. I can't do that, considering I'm not him, nor am I able to defend him.
That is by far the weakest argument for the strongest accusation in this game yet.
Oiu, Monsieur Obvious. But, I'm afraid I'll need to let Vector explain.
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Beer: As I said that is typical behaviour for Toony looking at his past. I didn't think anything of it as opposed to Jim because it came from someone who was posting any random shit, if it came from someone else then i'd be suspicious. You've been on me for a while and I think i've been pretty patient, i'd like to hear your opinion on something else for a change, namely this recent insanity.
Webadict: Vector hasn't been on in 2 hours and may not come on again being late. If you're serious about your accusations (you're not even voting for vector) I too would like a better explaination.
I'm suspicious of so many people I don't know what to think anymore. My gut tells me to stick with eduren so that's what i'm doing for now.
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Is it just me or does this not feel like a beginners game at all? ;D
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Is it just me or does this not feel like a beginners game at all? ;D
Yeah, we got a real talented bunch apparently.
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I can't tell if you're being sarcastic :P
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*Sigh* wall-o-text failed me!!
Aka: Eduren's explanations do make sense (I've also done live games and, yah, it is just random sillies all the time). For now I'll Unvote
Now note, it's late, and I'm rushing to get this in before bed so I can't do a full analysis. I CAN say one thing though and I can leave it at that for now:
From Webadict:
"I suspect Vector is mafia because he IS mafia. That's pretty obvious. I need him to tell you why he's not mafia. I can't do that, considering I'm not him, nor am I able to defend him.
Web, that's Burden of Proof and I can't see how you don't know it. You're making prove that he's NOT scum without showing why he IS scum? You were doing well against Org, then suddenly jump on Vector like this. I TOLD you that I won't let any mistake slide.
So stop tying to let Vector save you (i.e Vector panicing and saing something off, then you go "SEE!? That's it!!!"). YOU explain your actions, and don't play cute:. Eduren could do it, and he had far worse on him.
Vote Webadict
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Beer: As I said that is typical behaviour for Toony looking at his past. I didn't think anything of it as opposed to Jim because it came from someone who was posting any random shit, if it came from someone else then i'd be suspicious. You've been on me for a while and I think i've been pretty patient, i'd like to hear your opinion on something else for a change, namely this recent insanity.
[remainder clipped for space]
My opinion on the recent insanity:
Ah, okay. It looked to me like suspicion had turned away from ToonyMan for the moment as votes rotated towards you, but upon more careful consideration I suppose you're right. If you would like to convince everyone else that ToonyMan needs to be lynched today, though, I'll put him back on the list.
I'll ask ToonyMan as well, then, and change the question a little.
To ToonyMan, Org, and eduren:
Out of the three people we seem to have up for serious lynch consideration, which should we pick? Additionally, why do you think the other two (e.g. probably yourself and one other person) should be passed over for today?
I want Vector and Org gone. It's them. They're the mafia.
webadict has been extremely unclear about his intentions. The only thing even close to an explanation that we have received is the above post. Why did he quote that specific post of Vector's?
If I were going to accuse Vector and Org, I would have used something more, like this:
I'm curious.
Jim Groovester, why are you persisting Org with no evidence that he/she/it is scum?
Lurkers. I'm currently satisfied with dakarian's logic-blocks, as he has (in my mind, at least) undone his lurking. I find it difficult to believe that Org has absolutely zero time to do anything but defend himself, however. At the moment, I'd mark him as the member who has contributed the least to the town's efforts. Eduren seems quite scummy, but at least we know something about him. Even data on his incompetence is better than no data whatsoever.
So, Org for now, with the hope of pressuring him into some analytical contributions.
Ah, okay. It looked to me like suspicion had turned away from ToonyMan for the moment as votes rotated towards you, but upon more careful consideration I suppose you're right. If you would like to convince everyone else that ToonyMan needs to be lynched today, though, I'll put him back on the list.
I'll ask ToonyMan as well, then, and change the question a little.
To ToonyMan, Org, and eduren:
Out of the three people we seem to have up for serious lynch consideration, which should we pick? Additionally, why do you think the other two (e.g. probably yourself and one other person) should be passed over for today?
Using my argument, Vector first defended Org against Jim Groovester (who voted Org due to non-participation), and then voted Org for the same reason as Jim Groovester. Later, Vector had no qualms about including ToonyMan into the list of suspects, even though we have no reason to suspect more than two people at a time.
webadict's previous accusation against Jim Groovester shows that webadict is more than capable of coming up with such an argument. So, why the discrepancy?
His further posts show more of his intent:
I suspect Vector is mafia because he IS mafia. That's pretty obvious. I need him to tell you why he's not mafia. I can't do that, considering I'm not him, nor am I able to defend him.
That is by far the weakest argument for the strongest accusation in this game yet.
Oiu, Monsieur Obvious. But, I'm afraid I'll need to let Vector explain.
I would but then I would be mod-killed.
Really that is the only way I can prove it. I could be lying if I said anything else.
So, you're not even going to try to defend yourself?
No defense is the best defense.
That's a lie. An attempted defense is the best defense.
Did you read what I had first posted in this pyramid.
I did. So, you think that you are not able to be defended against?
I want Vector and Org gone. It's them. They're the mafia.
Proof, for either or both of us?
I want something from you first: Prove to me that you are NOT mafia. Do it. Right now.
The suddenness of this accusation and the suddenly confrontational attitude is alarming. Tell us why you think Vector is mafia.
Why simply Vector? Why not Org as well? Are we leaving him out of this?
Regardless of webadict's alignment, I am thinking webadict tried to make a big splash near the end of the day in order to shift the votes around. The difference would be in motivation. If webadict is town, he is doing it to see who jumps. If webadict is scum, he is doing it because one of the two people in the tie is also scum. Under the scum theory, I am not sure which of the two others would be scum: he could have voted Org in order to make eduren survive, or he could have voted Org in order to bus Org.
I may as well also detail why I suspect you, since you don't seem to like answering my questions:
First, you are the other party in ToonyMan's half-hearted vote right at the beginning. That was the major reason why I went after ToonyMan in the first place. ToonyMan's story checks out, but his excuse is still really lame. If ToonyMan is scum, you would be the most likely other scum. I want to see if you give.
Second, even from the very start you have been attempting to get on webadict's good side. You crossed him off the list when nobody had any information to go on. You suspected Jim for no real reason other than the fact that Jim had accused webadict. You've also been attempting to rationalize his recent actions. Why do you look up to him so much? You have no real reason to do so if you're town (webadict himself said as much), but if you're scum you have the obvious motivation of trying to pass under his radar.
Third, you are one of the three players that went after people due to inactivity. Vector and Jim also did so, but you were the only one who tried to make it seem like you weren't, with your comment "This likely won't be my final lynch..."
You should notice that all of my questions were directly related to the second point, as that is by far your most suspicious trait. If you answered well, I would have gone to suspecting someone else, and basically have publicly confirmed either you or ToonyMan as town. You didn't answer well.
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I may as well also detail why I suspect you, since you don't seem to like answering my questions:
Just to clarify, who do you mean by 'you'? It's a little ambiguous.
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I may as well also detail why I suspect you, since you don't seem to like answering my questions:
Just to clarify, who do you mean by 'you'? It's a little ambiguous.
My post, in its entirety, was a reply to a post made by BloodBeard. By 'you,' I was referring to him.
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Wow, I just managed to write a post and Firefox crashes for no apparent reason.
Anyhow,
*Sigh* wall-o-text failed me!!
Aka: Eduren's explanations do make sense (I've also done live games and, yah, it is just random sillies all the time). For now I'll Unvote
Now note, it's late, and I'm rushing to get this in before bed so I can't do a full analysis. I CAN say one thing though and I can leave it at that for now:
From Webadict:
"I suspect Vector is mafia because he IS mafia. That's pretty obvious. I need him to tell you why he's not mafia. I can't do that, considering I'm not him, nor am I able to defend him.
Web, that's Burden of Proof and I can't see how you don't know it. You're making prove that he's NOT scum without showing why he IS scum? You were doing well against Org, then suddenly jump on Vector like this. I TOLD you that I won't let any mistake slide.
So stop tying to let Vector save you (i.e Vector panicing and saing something off, then you go "SEE!? That's it!!!"). YOU explain your actions, and don't play cute:. Eduren could do it, and he had far worse on him.
Vote Webadict
Are you really more focused on Vector, as opposed to my vote for Org? Vector was more of an FoS, whereas Org was a full-on vote.
First, Org has shown his infamous Org Tell of Paranormal Round 5. Instead of announcing his innocence immediately upon being accused, he says, "nope im town," instead of, "wut" That's why he's my suspicion.
Secondly, it's better to see people's reactions without being told that their reaction is being monitored. That was indeed what I was doing, before people were told I was gauging him. The one thing I can tell you, though, is that he was on for a good 30 minutes after I accused him without so much as a "No." You have to notice more than just what is said.
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Sorry for the long wait--I was at a friend's house.
At this point, I don't really see any reason to go off and defend myself against webadict (though I am still willing to). To Free Beer's argument, however, I will state that my previous defense of Org was time-related. At that point, I thought his inactivity was reasonable. Now it is not. If there are any other questions in relation to Free Beer or webadict's statements, I'll be glad to answer them.
In any case, we have answers from ToonyMan and eduren, though Org is suspiciously silent. We also seem to have no defined person to lynch. Opinions?
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Sorry for the long wait--I was at a friend's house.
At this point, I don't really see any reason to go off and defend myself against webadict (though I am still willing to). To Free Beer's argument, however, I will state that my previous defense of Org was time-related. At that point, I thought his inactivity was reasonable. Now it is not. If there are any other questions in relation to Free Beer or webadict's statements, I'll be glad to answer them.
In any case, we have answers from ToonyMan and eduren, though Org is suspiciously silent. We also seem to have no defined person to lynch. Opinions?
You don't see a reason to prove you're not mafia? Or you don't see a reason to that you should have to because no one has brought up proof to counter such claims?
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Thank you. That's what I was looking for. Unvote Now it's gone from Burden of Proof to a true accusation.
It does leave me with little to do though. Org seems the next one to go for since he hasn't really put much of anything up (again, noting that I havn't analyzed the latest stuff yet) and Free beer seems to have a good set of points on Blood. It's mostly waiting for those two to talk now. I'll wait till I can look a bit deeper and/or hear some more from those two before I plop a vote.
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Wait no.. no it doesn't really... well, I get your reasoning now but it's still a touch of BoP and it's just trying to pressure for pressure's sake. Vector gave a reason towards the only thing he's accused of. Unless there's more to use against him, best to let him be for now. We have others that are more suspicious to turn on him just yet.
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The Whiteboard
BloodBeard: Free Beer
Org: Jim Groovester, Vector, webadict
ToonyMan: eduren
eduren: BloodBeard, ToonyMan
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I think it's about time we start casting our final votes. We've discussed who's suspicious at length, but the day ends at 10:00 AM Pacific time tomorrow, and unless you plan on waking up before that time (I'm a college student, I certainly don't plan on it), the votes we cast before bed will probably be our last. I think we should reach some sort of consensus before that time, so that we don't waste an opportunity to get some actual information about somebody.
My vote on Org remains unchanged. If he's scum, he sucks at being scum. If he's town, he sucks at being town, too. He hasn't really satisfied anybody's suspicions, and has generally been uncooperative and defiant.
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Wait no.. no it doesn't really... well, I get your reasoning now but it's still a touch of BoP and it's just trying to pressure for pressure's sake. Vector gave a reason towards the only thing he's accused of. Unless there's more to use against him, best to let him be for now. We have others that are more suspicious to turn on him just yet.
Well, the thing is that there is a lot to bring up against him. The only problem is that plenty of it could be considered circumstantial at this point. His reaction at this point would have been useful, had it actually been gauged. It has not, however, and is essential useless.
Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies. I will, however, say that the only people I can see as being scum at this point are Org, Vector, eduren, or Jim Groovester, from greatest to least.
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So can I suppose a vote for Toonyman would be wasted?
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Blargh, sorry for failing to properly explain myself. What I mean is this:
1. You didn't seem to have any legitimate claims on me. It looked like a bluff-attack, so I wasn't strongly concerned about it.
2. Various people have jumped up and made my arguments for me while I was out. Why repeat what they've said? If you have further questions, question me and I'd be happy to answer. I simply felt that that particular accusation had been answered in full.
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Wall-o-text
Half-hearted vote? Half the people here and even eduren himself admitted he showed scummy behaviour, I also voted him before Toony. That's all I have to say on that part.
You crossed him off the list when nobody had any information to go on
Was rectified.
You suspected Jim for no real reason other than the fact that Jim had accused webadict
I never said he accused webadict, I said that I was suspicious that he would repeatedly bring up eduren, toonyman and webadict as a group and that I wondered why webadict was included since he wasn't really a part of toonyman and aduren's arguing.
You've also been attempting to rationalize his recent actions
I suggested a explanation for him doing it, you also gave the same explanation in him trying to see "who jumps".
Third, you are one of the three players that went after people due to inactivity. Vector and Jim also did so, but you were the only one who tried to make it seem like you weren't, with your comment "This likely won't be my final lynch..."
I added that comment to let eduren know that I was coming back to him if dakarian didn't respond well.
I've been under the impression that aduren is still the number 1 suspect and that at least 3 other people would vote with me. I really have no idea what's going to go down now that Org has become another suspect. This will be the last time i'm on until night 1, so i'm sticking with eduren under the impression that Toony isn't changing his vote and will wait to see what happens.
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So can I suppose a vote for Toonyman would be wasted?
Depends on wasted. If you maintain a line against him for a few days and he ends up flipping scum, you'll probably be absolved (because it would be kind of weird for scum to bus scum on the first day). If you maintain a line on him and he flips town, you are going to look pretty stupid/scummish. The optimization is up to you.
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NONE of the arguments put up are wasted. We've put up a ton of discussion up on the boards that will come into play later on. Many of the people that were accused have NOT been confirmed town (in fact, no one has yet) so they will become focused on later on.
In fact, that's a reason why I disrupted your pressure, web. You already have someone worse to focus on (Org) and you're touching on logical fallacies by your push for Vector. You might end up making people forget Org to go watch another duel or, worse, cause people to focus on YOU instead of either of them. I think a new day will help bring your suspicions to proper view.
That goes for all of us. We've poked, prodded, and had our arguments countered. Lets take what we have and see if there's someone that's obviously suspicious.
As for that, I'll make a quick dive into the posts and make my decision.
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I would but then I would be mod-killed.
Really that is the only way I can prove it. I could be lying if I said anything else.
So, you're not even going to try to defend yourself?
No defense is the best defense.
That's a lie. An attempted defense is the best defense.
Did you read what I had first posted in this pyramid.
I did. So, you think that you are not able to be defended against?
I want Vector and Org gone. It's them. They're the mafia.
Proof, for either or both of us?
I want something from you first: Prove to me that you are NOT mafia. Do it. Right now.
The suddenness of this accusation and the suddenly confrontational attitude is alarming. Tell us why you think Vector is mafia.
Why simply Vector? Why not Org as well? Are we leaving him out of this?
NO I AM SAYING THAT I COULD BE LYING AND OBVIOUSLY LYING ISNT A GOOD OFFENSE GEEZ READ FOR ONCE NO I AM NOT SCUM
I think it's about time we start casting our final votes. We've discussed who's suspicious at length, but the day ends at 10:00 AM Pacific time tomorrow, and unless you plan on waking up before that time (I'm a college student, I certainly don't plan on it), the votes we cast before bed will probably be our last. I think we should reach some sort of consensus before that time, so that we don't waste an opportunity to get some actual information about somebody.
My vote on Org remains unchanged. If he's scum, he sucks at being scum. If he's town, he sucks at being town, too. He hasn't really satisfied anybody's suspicions, and has generally been uncooperative and defiant.
IF I SUCK AS TOWN THEN EVERYONE ELSE SUCKS AT ACCUSING PEOPLE OF BEING SCUM!
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Org, you said earlier that you are remaining cautious because you don't want to look suspicious.
The problem with that thinking: That's EXACTLY how the mafia thinks. The town is bent on accusing one another, pushed by the fact that time is their enemy. The mafia is concerned with one thing really: living. The longer they live, the more nights occur which let them do their kills. If they live long enough, they win. Each one of us townies could survive to the end game and STILL lose or die at day 1 and win.
Thus the town is bent towards the scum hunt. If you're more focused on living than lynching then it makes you look like the mafia, which is doing EXACTLY that.
Also, you did have a point in saying that no defense =best defense in a way. The problem is that, since you aren't doing any offense, you don't have anything to do in your posts. Thus, why your latest one is defensive. In fact, although you were one of the first to be focused on, the town stepped away from you to give you the benefit of the doubt and went after many of the rest of the people. Where's your opinion on the Toonyman issue? How did you feel about my Wall-o-text about Eduren? How do YOU feel about Webadict being the 'pro' in a sea of 'newbies'? What about Vector's WoT against Blood?
There's a MASS of different accusations and threads here, with serious discussions all around and almost everyone threatened at one point. You havn't been afk ALL this time. Do you not have ANY opinion on ANY of them!? Is the only thing you have on your mind whether people are voting on you or not? Don't fling the "They've been after me all game" mess. They went after me too at the same time for the same reason. People were defending you left and right saying "He's away" or "That's just how Org acts". About 3 people have been inches away from death LONG before the town as a whole really started aiming at you. ALL you needed to do was discuss the situation. Jeesh, you were asked "Who do you think is scummy?" and you STILL havn't answered.
#&%(*#&% YOU STILL HAVEN'T VOTED FOR ANYONE!!!
I had a nice list of folks that I thought was scummier than you. Every one of them defended themselves, either with explanations (Eduren, Webadict) or just physical evidence (Toony). You were under my radar overall. Others threw small prods at you just to get you talking. You decided to hide and defend yourself, then call us all crazy when we call you out on it.
For all that text, what I'm doing is still bandwagoning, since nothing I bring up is really different from what others have said. However, I don't have a reason NOT to vote for Org and don't have anyone else that's a bigger threat, so it'll have to do.
Vote Org
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Org, writing in all caps isn't a good thing.
So can I suppose a vote for Toonyman would be wasted?
Depends on wasted. If you maintain a line against him for a few days and he ends up flipping scum, you'll probably be absolved (because it would be kind of weird for scum to bus scum on the first day). If you maintain a line on him and he flips town, you are going to look pretty stupid/scummish. The optimization is up to you.
That's not how it works really. It depends on how or why he votes for him and not the fact that he voted for him. I could vote for you with no reason and you could flip up scum and people shouldn't be saying, "Oh, webadict is clear for sure." I could even come up with a rather bland reason. You can't go off the voting record without some rather extensive reasonings on why people voted for them.
I'll give an example:
Pretend there is a 7-player game. 2 are scum. The players are A, B, C, D, E, F and, obviously, G.
First day votes end with A voting for B; B, C voting for D; D, E, F, G voting for C.
C is lynched and comes up town.
D is killed Night 1.
A continues to push B, and succeeds. A, E, F, G vote B; B votes A.
B is lynched and comes up mafia.
E is killed Night 2.
So, A, F, G are left. F and G both agree A is town. They vote each other.
A and G votes for F. F votes for G.
F is lynched and comes up town.
A is mafia. Mafia win.
If someone really wanted to try that, it's very doable. Not only can you scumhunt, you can use your partner as being shown you're right. It's rather problematic for town, as you can't trust if their mafia or town, but rather you knew it's a possibility than I be killed at night and not know.
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The Whiteboard
BloodBeard: Free Beer
Org: Jim Groovester, Vector, dakarian, webadict
ToonyMan: eduren
eduren: BloodBeard, ToonyMan
Day 1 ends in 1 hour. You have until then to make any changes to your votes.
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A-through-G analysis
Ah, okay. That makes sense, now that you explain it. Thanks for the help, webadict.
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Target me mafia if you dare.
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The Whiteboard
BloodBeard: Free Beer
Org: Jim Groovester, Vector, dakarian, webadict
ToonyMan: eduren
eduren: BloodBeard, ToonyMan
You grab a protesting Org and drag him over to the noose. Ignoring his cries of innocence you string him up.
Once his body stops twitching, you search the corpse. No sign of mafia allegiance. Looks like he was a normal townsperson.
Ok, Day 1 is over. Night 1 will go until ~10am Pacific Friday , or until I have all of the night actions.
The thread will be locked during the night to prevent any communication between townsfolk until the next day. Night roles, send me your actions in a PM.
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You gather again to search for these scum. Today, however, you notice that BloodBeard is missing. Looks like the Mafia didn't like him much. You'll have to move fast if you don't want the same fate to happen to you.
[Clarification: BloodBeard was a normal townsperson.]
Ok, Day 2 has started. It will go until ~10am Pacific Tuesday to account for the weekend.
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So BloodBeard was a townie?
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Correct. There are no non-mafia night kills this game, so anyone who dies at night is town.
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FoS Jim Groovester, Vector, dakarian, and webadict for voting Org. You basically bandwagoned the poor fellow. Although I admit he wasn't helping us much.
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Vector, could you please tell us why you kept hunting lurkers on the last day?
And could you tell us who you suspect is mafia, and why?
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Sorry, but I'm going to be AFK for at least a few hours--just warning you, in case you were going to decide my lack of reply was weird and I Needed to be Hunted. I'll reply to those and any other queries when I return.
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Jim Groovester
dakarian
Org - Townie
ToonyMan
eduren
BloodBeard - Townie
Vector
Free Beer
webadict
I need to collect my thoughts.
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Vector, could you please tell us why you kept hunting lurkers on the last day?
And could you tell us who you suspect is mafia, and why?
So, why are you voting Vector now? And what exactly is wrong with hunting lurkers?
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Why'd the mafia pick BloodBeard? BloodBeard was most suspicious of eduren, and it bears noting that he was also suspicious of me.
I have more thoughts about what went down late yesterday and last night, but let's get this started. eduren, you didn't make the decision to kill BloodBeard in a vacuum, did you? Explain yourself.
Anyways, webadict, you said this yesterday:
Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.
You were speaking about Vector, so I'm curious about what sort of proof you have on him.
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Why'd the mafia pick BloodBeard? BloodBeard was most suspicious of eduren, and it bears noting that he was also suspicious of me.
I have more thoughts about what went down late yesterday and last night, but let's get this started. eduren, you didn't make the decision to kill BloodBeard in a vacuum, did you? Explain yourself.
Anyways, webadict, you said this yesterday:
Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.
You were speaking about Vector, so I'm curious about what sort of proof you have on him.
Fool! We have TWO confirmed townies to go off of. That's what we have. We can use everything they said yesterday, since it is proven they are town.
And everything you just is incredibly suspicious. You're voting for eduren because Bloodbeard was suspicious of him and of you? Or what? Are you saying we should lynch eduren because Bloodbeard was RIGHT about you?
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Vector, could you please tell us why you kept hunting lurkers on the last day?
And could you tell us who you suspect is mafia, and why?
So, why are you voting Vector now? And what exactly is wrong with hunting lurkers?
I tried being transparent with BloodBeard on day one, but it didn't work. He was pretty forthcoming until I started telling him my motives for questioning him. Then he suddenly got defensive. He had no motivation for getting defensive if he were town, and so I was pretty sure he was scum. And then it turned out he was town. I don't want the same thing to happen again. I want to find the mafia. I want people to answer my questions.
Therefore, please understand when I say I don't want to explain my motives for questioning Vector at this time. If you ask me again later, after I have questioned Vector some more, I'll be more willing to be open.
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Vector, could you please tell us why you kept hunting lurkers on the last day?
And could you tell us who you suspect is mafia, and why?
So, why are you voting Vector now? And what exactly is wrong with hunting lurkers?
Quite fine. I believe that is certainly acceptable.
I tried being transparent with BloodBeard on day one, but it didn't work. He was pretty forthcoming until I started telling him my motives for questioning him. Then he suddenly got defensive. He had no motivation for getting defensive if he were town, and so I was pretty sure he was scum. And then it turned out he was town. I don't want the same thing to happen again. I want to find the mafia. I want people to answer my questions.
Therefore, please understand when I say I don't want to explain my motives for questioning Vector at this time. If you ask me again later, after I have questioned Vector some more, I'll be more willing to be open.
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Fool! We have TWO confirmed townies to go off of. That's what we have. We can use everything they said yesterday, since it is proven they are town.
And everything you just is incredibly suspicious. You're voting for eduren because Bloodbeard was suspicious of him and of you? Or what? Are you saying we should lynch eduren because Bloodbeard was RIGHT about you?
eduren was the most suspicious person immediately after Org. BloodBeard voted for him, and we all would have voted for him if Org hadn't turned out to be a total tool and forced our hand. We may have been on to something, so I think a little pressure is appropriate.
BloodBeard was killed during the night, and I figured that it would be worth mentioning all of BloodBeard's suspicions in order to try and understand why he was killed, and understand the implications that they would lead to. Unfortunately for me, BloodBeard suspected me.
Though, if you suspect me, look at my brilliant mafia plan. BloodBeard begins suspecting me, so me and my mafia buddy decide to kill him. Then, the next day, everyone looks at BloodBeard's suspicions and they point back directly at me. Genius, no?
Anyways, you haven't answered my question about your proof about Vector.
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Fool! We have TWO confirmed townies to go off of. That's what we have. We can use everything they said yesterday, since it is proven they are town.
And everything you just is incredibly suspicious. You're voting for eduren because Bloodbeard was suspicious of him and of you? Or what? Are you saying we should lynch eduren because Bloodbeard was RIGHT about you?
eduren was the most suspicious person immediately after Org. BloodBeard voted for him, and we all would have voted for him if Org hadn't turned out to be a total tool and forced our hand. We may have been on to something, so I think a little pressure is appropriate.
BloodBeard was killed during the night, and I figured that it would be worth mentioning all of BloodBeard's suspicions in order to try and understand why he was killed, and understand the implications that they would lead to. Unfortunately for me, BloodBeard suspected me.
Though, if you suspect me, look at my brilliant mafia plan. BloodBeard begins suspecting me, so me and my mafia buddy decide to kill him. Then, the next day, everyone looks at BloodBeard's suspicions and they point back directly at me. Genius, no?
Anyways, you haven't answered my question about your proof about Vector.
Just because it's a bad plan, doesn't mean it's impossible.
And no, I have, in fact, NOT answered your question. But, I'm waiting for Vector's response as well.
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Why'd the mafia pick BloodBeard? BloodBeard was most suspicious of eduren, and it bears noting that he was also suspicious of me.
I have more thoughts about what went down late yesterday and last night, but let's get this started. eduren, you didn't make the decision to kill BloodBeard in a vacuum, did you? Explain yourself.
Do you really think Im stupid enough to have NKed Bloodbeard? I was already under intense scrutiny and if I was mafia I probably would have picked someone less conspicuous.
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Why'd the mafia pick BloodBeard? BloodBeard was most suspicious of eduren, and it bears noting that he was also suspicious of me.
I have more thoughts about what went down late yesterday and last night, but let's get this started. eduren, you didn't make the decision to kill BloodBeard in a vacuum, did you? Explain yourself.
Anyways, webadict, you said this yesterday:
Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.
You were speaking about Vector, so I'm curious about what sort of proof you have on him.
Fool! We have TWO confirmed townies to go off of. That's what we have. We can use everything they said yesterday, since it is proven they are town.
And everything you just is incredibly suspicious. You're voting for eduren because Bloodbeard was suspicious of him and of you? Or what? Are you saying we should lynch eduren because Bloodbeard was RIGHT about you?
Wait, I don't think anybody is saying that Bloodbeard was right, just that he wasn't acting on behalf of the scum. While, yes, his points have become more valid, being proven townie does not automatically make you psychic (unless the cop is involved but he couldn't have used his power anytime in the first day).
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No one says that he was right, it's just that his points are not biased toward the mafia.
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At long last, some answers to your queries.
1. I spent most of yesterday hunting lurkers because they're either worthless or dangerous. Either they're sitting around without stating any of their suspicions whatsoever (thus hurting the town's efforts to identify scum), or they're scum sitting back and watching us try to murder each other. Neither case is good. So, I tried to get them to prove their allegiances.
2. At the moment, I'm vaguely worried about eduren and webadict, though I think the latter is much less likely than the former. The latter isn't an OMGUS FoS so much as wondering about what happened with Org, because it seems almost like we were leveraged by his superior knowledge of previous games of mafia to kill one of our own. Org's behavior definitely didn't help at all, but I think the eduren lynch would have gone through if not for webadict's accusation. I can't fully say that he's suspicious. He looks and smells town. However, I believe that the range of his experience would allow him to masquerade as such quite readily, while we trust his direction like blind sheep.
As far as eduren goes, my reasoning stands from yesterday--that is, lack of helpfulness, bandwagoning, etc. It also helps that BloodBeard was strongly suspicious of him and he fell for ToonyMan's scum-trap. I also feel like I'm waiting for him to show some better reasons as to why he should live, if no one else starts emanating scum tells.
I'll admit, though, that I don't really know what to think at the moment. I'm quite confused and hoping that today's progressions will clear a lot up.
3. eduren: Less conspicuous like whom? In other words, can you think of someone less conspicuous than BloodBeard?
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I'll back off webadict for now. I think he's town. Not so much for eduren though. I'll wait for him to say something though before voting. As in why we should not lynch him.
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Thank you Vector, for proving that once again, scum love the easy lynch. eduren is, in fact, not scum, and very much not so.
So Org, the problem that I see here is that you are playing a solely defensive game. Take dakarian as an example, if you like: he had stuff to do, and then proved his usefulness to the town via a wall of text. You've only attempted to assert your own innocence and deflect attacks. That behavior is not exactly helpful (and cautiousness is also a scum-tell), which is why I'm voting for you at the moment.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize eduren was okay until Org was dead... Oh wait...
And just what you said, cautiousness is a scum tell. You're being cautious by NOT going after me.
Also, a note to Free Beer, eduren, and dakarian: Who do you think is scum?
A note to Jim Groovester, Vector, and ToonyMan: Who do you think is town?
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At long last, some answers to your queries.
1. I spent most of yesterday hunting lurkers because they're either worthless or dangerous. Either they're sitting around without stating any of their suspicions whatsoever (thus hurting the town's efforts to identify scum), or they're scum sitting back and watching us try to murder each other. Neither case is good. So, I tried to get them to prove their allegiances.
2. At the moment, I'm vaguely worried about eduren and webadict, though I think the latter is much less likely than the former. The latter isn't an OMGUS FoS so much as wondering about what happened with Org, because it seems almost like we were leveraged by his superior knowledge of previous games of mafia to kill one of our own. Org's behavior definitely didn't help at all, but I think the eduren lynch would have gone through if not for webadict's accusation. I can't fully say that he's suspicious. He looks and smells town. However, I believe that the range of his experience would allow him to masquerade as such quite readily, while we trust his direction like blind sheep.
As far as eduren goes, my reasoning stands from yesterday--that is, lack of helpfulness, bandwagoning, etc. It also helps that BloodBeard was strongly suspicious of him and he fell for ToonyMan's scum-trap. I also feel like I'm waiting for him to show some better reasons as to why he should live, if no one else starts emanating scum tells.
I'll admit, though, that I don't really know what to think at the moment. I'm quite confused and hoping that today's progressions will clear a lot up.
3. eduren: Less conspicuous like whom? In other words, can you think of someone less conspicuous than BloodBeard?
Ill get back to you on the better reasons, I have to do a little bit of reviewing the record. I can so far say that my pusuit of Toonyman at the loss of my credibility was genuine. I believed Toonyman's response to my accusations to betray either bad townsmanship or scummy behavior.
3. If I were mafia, I would have gone for webadict. I have had no quarrel with web and it would have no immediate link to myself. Furthermore it would have dispelled some of the early "master and apprentice" theories.
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The Whiteboard
Vector: Free Beer, webadict
eduren: Jim Groovester
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A note to Jim Groovester, Vector, and ToonyMan: Who do you think is town?
* Jim Groovester
* dakarian
* Org
* ToonyMan
* eduren
* BloodBeard
* Vector
* Free Beer
* webadict
I added mafia for the hell of it. It would of happened anyway.
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The Whiteboard
Vector: Free Beer, webadict
eduren: Jim Groovester
Vector is voting for eduren too.
A note to Jim Groovester, Vector, and ToonyMan: Who do you think is town?
* Jim Groovester
* dakarian
* Org
* ToonyMan
* eduren
* BloodBeard
* Vector
* Free Beer
* webadict
I added mafia for the hell of it. It would of happened anyway.
Why do you think that is the setup?
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I believe eduren and Vector are scum. Thus leaving the rest town.
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The Whiteboard
Vector: Free Beer, webadict
eduren: Jim Groovester, Vector
Thanks, missed that somehow
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Also, a note to Free Beer, eduren, and dakarian: Who do you think is scum?
Just because its a new day does not mean that my feelings about Toonyman have changed. So Toony, can you elaborate your thoughts on Org's lynch and Blood's NK?
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I believe eduren and Vector are scum. Thus leaving the rest town.
That's the opposite of what I wanted you to answer...
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For Org, I didn't know if he was scum or town, but he was doing the usual "lolwut" stuff so I didn't really do anything about it. He was town though. :-\
For BloodBeard, nothing I found of him was suspicious so I didn't vote for him. The first vote I made was just a joke about the Phoenix Arena thing. I was going to unvote when he posted, like I did.
I believe eduren and Vector are scum. Thus leaving the rest town.
That's the opposite of what I wanted you to answer...
So you want me to tell you why I think everybody else is town? That'll take about 10 or 20 minutes. If you want.
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I believe eduren and Vector are scum. Thus leaving the rest town.
I understand your beliefs on me as an individual, and Vector as well. But can you find evidence of a partnership?
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I believe eduren and Vector are scum. Thus leaving the rest town.
I understand your beliefs on me as an individual, and Vector as well. But can you find evidence of a partnership?
Hah, that's scummy. Mafia try to stay apart when they play during the day.
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Thank you Vector, for proving that once again, scum love the easy lynch. eduren is, in fact, not scum, and very much not so.
So Org, the problem that I see here is that you are playing a solely defensive game. Take dakarian as an example, if you like: he had stuff to do, and then proved his usefulness to the town via a wall of text. You've only attempted to assert your own innocence and deflect attacks. That behavior is not exactly helpful (and cautiousness is also a scum-tell), which is why I'm voting for you at the moment.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize eduren was okay until Org was dead... Oh wait...
And just what you said, cautiousness is a scum tell. You're being cautious by NOT going after me.
Also, a note to Free Beer, eduren, and dakarian: Who do you think is scum?
A note to Jim Groovester, Vector, and ToonyMan: Who do you think is town?
First off, what makes you so certain that eduren isn't scum? Also, how is it that you know eduren isn't scum because Org wasn't? I actually can't understand your train of thought here. Based on your use of ellipses, I'm guessing you're being sarcastic, but I don't know what you're actually trying to say. Sorry for the confusion.
A lot of data has been spewed all over the place, and I can't really figure out what's happening right now--so I'm defaulting back to eduren until I can get my head on straight. You're right. His big block-o-text was pretty convincing. I can believe that he hadn't figured things out at first. As I said, however, until someone else does something suspicious, I am going to stick with eduren for now.
To webadict: if I were scum, why would I kill BloodBeard?
Mod: Unfortunately, I will be unable to get to a computer from the beginning of day 3 or so (I signed up for this not knowing how much time a standard game takes). If it's not too much trouble, do you think you could find a replacement for me after that time?
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I believe eduren and Vector are scum. Thus leaving the rest town.
I understand your beliefs on me as an individual, and Vector as well. But can you find evidence of a partnership?
Hah, that's scummy. Mafia try to stay apart when they play during the day.
That's your evidence? That there is none?
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I believe eduren and Vector are scum. Thus leaving the rest town.
I understand your beliefs on me as an individual, and Vector as well. But can you find evidence of a partnership?
Hah, that's scummy. Mafia try to stay apart when they play during the day.
That's your evidence? That there is none?
That's what you want.
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Mod: Unfortunately, I will be unable to get to a computer from the beginning of day 3 or so (I signed up for this not knowing how much time a standard game takes). If it's not too much trouble, do you think you could find a replacement for me after that time?
Unfortunate, but sure. I'll put up a post in the replacements thread. (What date will you be gone from? The 12th?)
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Yeah, I'm really sorry about that. I think it'll be from the 11th at noon or so. Thanks a lot for the help.
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Curses, I forgot to answer the question about who I think is town.
Dakarian and ToonyMan.
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I can't get over something.
webadict has gone after Vector since yesterday. It was unprovoked, and he failed to provide any compelling evidence yesterday, citing instead that he will have proof today. This trend continues today, deferring my questions instead to Vector's response, and again failing to provide any compelling evidence. Vector has yet to flinch against webadict, and is only rousing suspicion for webadict himself.
Furthermore, there's this:
Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.
This made me think that webadict was going to do something in the night that would prove that Vector was scum, namely, investigate Vector as the cop. Quite frankly, I'm surprised webadict is still alive after giving such a tell like this. I would think the mafia would've seized up on something like that.
The above, combined with the way webadict is going after Vector, lead me to believe that webadict is scum.
Unvote eduren. I haven't decided on him yet. webadict, however, is too dangerous to keep in this game.
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At long last, some answers to your queries.
1. I spent most of yesterday hunting lurkers because they're either worthless or dangerous. Either they're sitting around without stating any of their suspicions whatsoever (thus hurting the town's efforts to identify scum), or they're scum sitting back and watching us try to murder each other. Neither case is good. So, I tried to get them to prove their allegiances.
2. At the moment, I'm vaguely worried about eduren and webadict, though I think the latter is much less likely than the former. The latter isn't an OMGUS FoS so much as wondering about what happened with Org, because it seems almost like we were leveraged by his superior knowledge of previous games of mafia to kill one of our own. Org's behavior definitely didn't help at all, but I think the eduren lynch would have gone through if not for webadict's accusation. I can't fully say that he's suspicious. He looks and smells town. However, I believe that the range of his experience would allow him to masquerade as such quite readily, while we trust his direction like blind sheep.
As far as eduren goes, my reasoning stands from yesterday--that is, lack of helpfulness, bandwagoning, etc. It also helps that BloodBeard was strongly suspicious of him and he fell for ToonyMan's scum-trap. I also feel like I'm waiting for him to show some better reasons as to why he should live, if no one else starts emanating scum tells.
I'll admit, though, that I don't really know what to think at the moment. I'm quite confused and hoping that today's progressions will clear a lot up.
3. eduren: Less conspicuous like whom? In other words, can you think of someone less conspicuous than BloodBeard?
So why did you keep your vote on Org? After he began posting in his defense, was he still either worthless or dangerous? As you indicate, you've been suspicious of eduren for a while now. Why didn't you vote for him instead?
If you think eduren is scum, who do you think is the other scum? Do you think a webadict/eduren pairing is the most likely, or are you suspicious of others?
You didn't mention ToonyMan, and in fact used his "scum-trap" in part of your reasoning. Does this mean that you think he is town? If so, why?
You used the fact that BloodBeard suspected eduren as part of your reasoning. What motives do you think the mafia had in going after him?
Also, a note to Free Beer, eduren, and dakarian: Who do you think is scum?
I think at least one of the people who voted Org is scum. Quite frankly, I am disappointed in how lightly you, webadict, touched upon Jim and Vector on the previous day. If you kept the pressure up, particularly against Jim, I wouldn't feel the desire to question them today.
I suspect you, webadict, the most, because your vote for Org tied the vote. dakarian changed over to Org later, but you had no way of knowing that. Why did you tie the vote? It could have been to save eduren, or it could have been to give the mafia a head start with their kills. I can think of no other reason. I also think your reasoning for voting for Org was shoddy: you claim that he was not giving his characteristic tell (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=36305.120), and that's it. Even if he wasn't giving the tell, given the length of time between that game and this game, it is quite plausible that Org had a chance to refine his playstyle.
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Argh, guests just arrived. I will answer you later...
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I can't get over something.
webadict has gone after Vector since yesterday. It was unprovoked, and he failed to provide any compelling evidence yesterday, citing instead that he will have proof today. This trend continues today, deferring my questions instead to Vector's response, and again failing to provide any compelling evidence. Vector has yet to flinch against webadict, and is only rousing suspicion for webadict himself.
Furthermore, there's this:
Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.
This made me think that webadict was going to do something in the night that would prove that Vector was scum, namely, investigate Vector as the cop. Quite frankly, I'm surprised webadict is still alive after giving such a tell like this. I would think the mafia would've seized up on something like that.
The above, combined with the way webadict is going after Vector, lead me to believe that webadict is scum.
Unvote eduren. I haven't decided on him yet. webadict, however, is too dangerous to keep in this game.
I'm scum because I'm going after Vector?
Perhaps you're not thinking clearly:
Why would I die this past night? Wouldn't I be the likely choice for Doctor protection? If anything, I would kill dakarian for his analytical posts. He wouldn't have doctor protection and there'd be no reason for him to have it unless I was doctor.
You're saying I'm mafia because I lack evidence for someone being mafia? Isn't that itself lacking real evidence?
There's evidence galore. He's going for the easy lynch. Second on the bandwagons. He says that everyone that lynched Org is suspicious and there was no reason to, despite the fact he did, and then he went for eduren!
I have to go for a bit, but I'll be back with more!
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Warning: Enormous Wall of Text
Alright, webadict, let me be thorough, just for you.
You began your accusation of Vector with this:
I want Vector and Org gone. It's them. They're the mafia.
This came out of nowhere. I was thoroughly alarmed by this statement, because of how sudden and certain it was, so I asked you about it. You deflected, as follows.
The suddenness of this accusation and the suddenly confrontational attitude is alarming. Tell us why you think Vector is mafia.
Why simply Vector? Why not Org as well? Are we leaving him out of this?
I answer in kind. Then you answer the question:
Why simply Vector? Why not Org as well? Are we leaving him out of this?
Because Org's a punk and I don't care if he gets offed.
Will you now answer the question? Once again, why do you suspect Vector is mafia, and how are you so certain?
I suspect Vector is mafia because he IS mafia. That's pretty obvious. I need him to tell you why he's not mafia. I can't do that, considering I'm not him, nor am I able to defend him.
Your claims of the obviousness of Vector's guilt disturbed me, because if it was obvious, it would be apparent to more people than just you. You defer your evidence to Vector's response, and that disturbed me as well. Not ready to accuse you quite yet, I respond with the following.
That is by far the weakest argument for the strongest accusation in this game yet.
Oiu, Monsieur Obvious. But, I'm afraid I'll need to let Vector explain.
Another deferral. People start getting suspicious.
Webadict: Vector hasn't been on in 2 hours and may not come on again being late. If you're serious about your accusations (you're not even voting for vector) I too would like a better explaination.
From Webadict:
"I suspect Vector is mafia because he IS mafia. That's pretty obvious. I need him to tell you why he's not mafia. I can't do that, considering I'm not him, nor am I able to defend him.
Web, that's Burden of Proof and I can't see how you don't know it. You're making prove that he's NOT scum without showing why he IS scum? You were doing well against Org, then suddenly jump on Vector like this. I TOLD you that I won't let any mistake slide.
Nothing comes out of it, because we decide to lynch Org. Aside from an explanatory note, you end the day with the following:
Well, the thing is that there is a lot to bring up against him. The only problem is that plenty of it could be considered circumstantial at this point. His reaction at this point would have been useful, had it actually been gauged. It has not, however, and is essential useless.
Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies. I will, however, say that the only people I can see as being scum at this point are Org, Vector, eduren, or Jim Groovester, from greatest to least.
I was intrigued by your claim of proof, to say the least. As I said in my previous post, this post made me think that you were the cop, in which case, I could legitimately expect the results of your investigation, provided you didn't die in the night. A tell like that should've painted a giant target on your back, and you're right in that you would be the logical choice for doctor protection.
Anyways, Org is lynched, and the day ends. Night happens, you don't die and BloodBeard is killed. So the first thing I do is bring up your claim of proof:
Anyways, webadict, you said this yesterday:
Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.
You were speaking about Vector, so I'm curious about what sort of proof you have on him.
And you respond with this:
Fool! We have TWO confirmed townies to go off of. That's what we have. We can use everything they said yesterday, since it is proven they are town.
And everything you just is incredibly suspicious. You're voting for eduren because Bloodbeard was suspicious of him and of you? Or what? Are you saying we should lynch eduren because Bloodbeard was RIGHT about you?
Which is, again, another deflection. You just don't like answering my questions directly, do you? So I respond to your suspicions, ask again, and then you respond:
And no, I have, in fact, NOT answered your question. But, I'm waiting for Vector's response as well.
A deliberate refusal to answer a legitimate question, and another deferral to Vector's response. He's already responded several times by this point, but he defends himself once again:
At long last, some answers to your queries.
[Vector's responses]
Nothing seems out of the ordinary. The only person Vector's posts seem to bug is you:
Thank you Vector, for proving that once again, scum love the easy lynch. eduren is, in fact, not scum, and very much not so.
Once again, no proof whatsoever. Only flimsy accusations of cautiousness or going for the easy lynch. Vector has yet to flinch against your scrutiny. So I flat out accuse you, because you said you had proof, rather than mere accusations. The suddenness of your original accusation, the certainty of it, your lack of proof concerning Vector, and that you delivered an enormous tell that the mafia didn't act on convinced me that you were a member of the mafia.
So that is why I accused you.
And now others are wondering why you are so certain that eduren isn't scum, and they are beginning to ponder that your accusation of Org as well as your claim of his tell was to deflect suspicion away from eduren, who was likely going to be the target of the lynch. Convenient that Org just so happened to be an uncooperative town member just at that time, huh?
One more thing, though:
Oiu, Monsieur Obvious.
Fool!
Perhaps you're not thinking clearly:
Do you always patronize the people who are on to you?
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Yes, accusations come from nowhere. That's why people accuse with them. I don't hold a gun to your head and shoot immediately. That's irresponsible.
And I see you conveniently left out the last post I posted, which explains exactly what he's done. Nope, I don't see it anywhere in that posts of yours. Must've gotten left out, considering you quoted portions of it...
Oh, and remember how I was waiting for Vector's response? Yeah, it happened. Big whoop. I posted. You want quotes of all those posts? I can do that. I'm lazy and don't want to but I can.
And yes, I feel that a couple of insults help others learn faster. And you can't be "on to me" if there's nothing to be on to.
And do you honestly think I care if I have a target painted on me?
You know what the funny thing is though? You've made a big lapse in judgment, and something about your logic has taken a big turn. You say you're looking for my inspection, and you somehow discount me saying eduren isn't scum as me "protecting my partner." Huh? Weird how he assumes that I wouldn't inspect Vector.
This means two things are wrong with your story, doesn't it?
I was intrigued by your claim of proof, to say the least. As I said in my previous post, this post made me think that you were the cop, in which case, I could legitimately expect the results of your investigation, provided you didn't die in the night. A tell like that should've painted a giant target on your back, and you're right in that you would be the logical choice for doctor protection.
And now others are wondering why you are so certain that eduren isn't scum, and they are beginning to ponder that your accusation of Org as well as your claim of his tell was to deflect suspicion away from eduren, who was likely going to be the target of the lynch. Convenient that Org just so happened to be an uncooperative town member just at that time, huh?
This is what we call "rolefishing." You're looking for the Cop role, and you're voting me in order to find out if I am indeed the Cop. You're coming up with bogus allegations in order to pressure me into roleclaiming. If I do not roleclaim Cop, you lynch me with whatever you can. I'm just another person that might be the Doctor. If I do, you let me live and I get killed tonight (Or protected). That's a nice try, if I do say so myself.
My guess is that you're scum, looking for any investigations made by the Cop and, by association, the Cop himself. Especially since you know A through Z and your times tables, but conveniently forget 2 + 2.
Once again, no proof whatsoever. Only flimsy accusations of cautiousness or going for the easy lynch. Vector has yet to flinch against your scrutiny. So I flat out accuse you, because you said you had proof, rather than mere accusations. The suddenness of your original accusation, the certainty of it, your lack of proof concerning Vector, and that you delivered an enormous tell that the mafia didn't act on convinced me that you were a member of the mafia.
So that is why I accused you.
Are you saying you're accusing me with no proof?
And I'm certain Vector is in the mafia. Whatever you think is what you think, but I know what I know. I can feel it.
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Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.
Can you explain what you meant by this? Is this a hint at a role or a deferment until further developments? If the latter, why were you so sure of your proof coming up the next day?
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Also, can you please answer this Toony?
Also, a note to Free Beer, eduren, and dakarian: Who do you think is scum?
Just because its a new day does not mean that my feelings about Toonyman have changed. So Toony, can you elaborate your thoughts on Org's lynch and Blood's NK?
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Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.
Can you explain what you meant by this? Is this a hint at a role or a deferment until further developments? If the latter, why were you so sure of your proof coming up the next day?
What part about rolefishing did you not understand?
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Tomorrow, I will have plenty of proof on him. Today, however, I will not have much to go off of until somebody dies.
Can you explain what you meant by this? Is this a hint at a role or a deferment until further developments? If the latter, why were you so sure of your proof coming up the next day?
What part about rolefishing did you not understand?
Ummm... what is it?
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incoherence condescension arrogance defensiveness insults
Wow, you really turned it up a notch with that post. If I didn't know any better, I'd thought I'd hit a nerve.
There's so much to pick apart about your post. Accusations come from nowhere? I thought they came after you gathered evidence against somebody. Do you care whether you have a target on your back? No, I suppose you wouldn't. Mafia don't target their own. You know what you know, and you can feel it, huh? If only we could read your (obviously) brilliant mind.
I've made my reasons for accusing you abundantly clear. I will not repeat myself to you, especially after that little tantrum.
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Also, can you please answer this Toony?
Also, a note to Free Beer, eduren, and dakarian: Who do you think is scum?
Just because its a new day does not mean that my feelings about Toonyman have changed. So Toony, can you elaborate your thoughts on Org's lynch and Blood's NK?
For Org, I didn't know if he was scum or town, but he was doing the usual "lolwut" stuff so I didn't really do anything about it. He was town though. :-\
For BloodBeard, nothing I found of him was suspicious so I didn't vote for him. The first vote I made was just a joke about the Phoenix Arena thing. I was going to unvote when he posted, like I did.
I believe eduren and Vector are scum. Thus leaving the rest town.
That's the opposite of what I wanted you to answer...
So you want me to tell you why I think everybody else is town? That'll take about 10 or 20 minutes. If you want.
;D Funny, you posted almost right after I posted this.
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incoherence condescension arrogance defensiveness insults
Wow, you really turned it up a notch with that post. If I didn't know any better, I'd thought I'd hit a nerve.
There's so much to pick apart about your post. Accusations come from nowhere? I thought they came after you gathered evidence against somebody. Do you care whether you have a target on your back? No, I suppose you wouldn't. Mafia don't target their own. You know what you know, and you can feel it, huh? If only we could read your (obviously) brilliant mind.
I've made my reasons for accusing you abundantly clear. I will not repeat myself to you, especially after that little tantrum.
I think you added a certain voice to my posts that wasn't there.
You see, if I have a target on me, big whoop. I'd rather have it on me than someone else, because it's much harder for a newbie to defend against this. Seeing as how paper thin your evidence is, and certainly circumstantial.
Tantrum? That was a clear explanation that you purposely left out information critical to any defense I had. Are you saying everything I said was now a lie? Or that it's contrary to your accusation?
And yes. It's called intuition. I can feel there's something very wrong about his posts. There's nothing wrong with that, but I can list specific parts of his posts that aren't right:
1. I'm voting for dakarian because eduren doesn't look that dangerous. Dakarian is lurking. Eduren is currently bumbling around. He is acting either like scum or like he doesn't know what he's doing. For example, it seems that the ideal questions are psychological ones (like the color one). He is asking questions that do not increase paranoia in the suspect, so at the moment I am considering him less dangerous.
Then, he's also running scared already. His posts have a frightened tone and he's not behaving like he's in control anymore. I figured I would FoS him (sorry, that's what I meant by casting suspicions) instead of using up my vote, because I want dakarian to feel like he/she/it has something serious to address and votes seem to outweigh FoS-ing. Essentially, the goal is to induce a similar degree of panic in dakarian to that in eduren.
2. Why would I vote dakarian for FoS-ing you, at the same time as I FoS'd you? The fingerpointing is not overzealous, in my point of view. Eduren, you are acting very odd.
Here he's being really cautious. He's voting for dakarian, who hasn't posted yet, yet also FoSing eduren. Honestly, I think dakarian is the other scum, but that's also a feeling, but it goes with the First Day scumtell.
He's trying to continue the random voting to appear as scumhunting without having to actually analyze posts. The easiest way is to vote people who have posted little.
I'm keeping with dakarian until he finishes getting the same grilling the rest of us had to go through, but otherwise Jim Groovester's proposal seems reasonable enough.
And to ToonyMan, I was wondering if you could explain precisely which behaviors are making you think the rest of us are crazy.
Again, he's not going with picking one person until dakarian was "grilled." And of course, we all know who he goes after...
Lurkers. I'm currently satisfied with dakarian's logic-blocks, as he has (in my mind, at least) undone his lurking. I find it difficult to believe that Org has absolutely zero time to do anything but defend himself, however. At the moment, I'd mark him as the member who has contributed the least to the town's efforts. Eduren seems quite scummy, but at least we know something about him. Even data on his incompetence is better than no data whatsoever.
So, Org for now, with the hope of pressuring him into some analytical contributions.
He explains that he's only voting him because he hasn't explained his reasoning. He's pressuring him because he's STILL "scumhunting," and not focusing on people. It makes him appear active while information is not forthcoming. He's actively lurking.
Well, maybe. It seems that instead of the three lynch targets we had before (ToonyMan, dakarian, eduren), we're down to eduren and Org.
So, you two: why should we lynch the other one? If you think the other person is not lynch-worthy, please bring up a third person you want to see dead and explain why you wouldn't attack your counterpart.
This is the same. It's just a bad thing in general to ask. And then he generalizes the question. He's still NOT focusing. He's being as broad as he possibly can to avoid suspicion.
Ah, okay. It looked to me like suspicion had turned away from ToonyMan for the moment as votes rotated towards you, but upon more careful consideration I suppose you're right. If you would like to convince everyone else that ToonyMan needs to be lynched today, though, I'll put him back on the list.
I'll ask ToonyMan as well, then, and change the question a little.
To ToonyMan, Org, and eduren:
Out of the three people we seem to have up for serious lynch consideration, which should we pick? Additionally, why do you think the other two (e.g. probably yourself and one other person) should be passed over for today?
It's a very broad question AND he's doesn't have to do anything besides agree. He's NOT scumhunting, and never has.
Sorry for the long wait--I was at a friend's house.
At this point, I don't really see any reason to go off and defend myself against webadict (though I am still willing to). To Free Beer's argument, however, I will state that my previous defense of Org was time-related. At that point, I thought his inactivity was reasonable. Now it is not. If there are any other questions in relation to Free Beer or webadict's statements, I'll be glad to answer them.
In any case, we have answers from ToonyMan and eduren, though Org is suspiciously silent. We also seem to have no defined person to lynch. Opinions?
This is very silly. Why not post in what way you've contributed to the conversation or some such? Or does everyone else have to prove their not mafia and not you? He says there's no point but he's willing to? I've even asked him to, and he hasn't, so it's not that he's willing to. It's that he wants to appear as though he's willing to and avoid further scrutiny.
And look how he actively chooses NOT to specify anyone! He's trying to actively lurk, avoiding suspicion as best as he can. ("It wasn't MY idea to lynch Org. I just went along with it")
Blargh, sorry for failing to properly explain myself. What I mean is this:
1. You didn't seem to have any legitimate claims on me. It looked like a bluff-attack, so I wasn't strongly concerned about it.
2. Various people have jumped up and made my arguments for me while I was out. Why repeat what they've said? If you have further questions, question me and I'd be happy to answer. I simply felt that that particular accusation had been answered in full.
You have to defend yourself. You can't let others do it for you, because they do not know what you meant or why you did things. All accusations are serious.
I'm telling you, he's mafia.
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First off, answers to Free Beer.
1. I kept my vote on Org because even with his defensive posts, he was still not providing useful information for the town. Though he managed to put up a mild shield, he did not answer any of the questions posed to him, and he defended himself only when it was easy and required no analysis.
Also, my thought was that webadict was a strong proponent of the Org lynch, while ToonyMan was going for eduren. Given that I considered ToonyMan town at the time (after his varied frustrated posts), I was more interested on getting information about webadict. Therefore, Org seemed like a better choice.
2. To be honest, I'm starting to draw away from eduren. He seems like a confused newb who doesn't really know what he's doing, and his behavior has greatly changed after complaints. Of course, that could be a mafia ploy... So, my suspicion is turning more strongly towards webadict, but I would not be at all surprised if he were working with eduren. I'll explain more about that later.
3. I am currently inclined to think that ToonyMan is town, mostly due to reading more posts of his in other threads. First of all, he seems to be acting normally for him; secondly, he has engaged in no behavior I can fully consider suspicious; third, he never reacted with panic or anger, but only frustration and a kind of weariness. Perhaps his emotional cloaking is better than I imagine, but at this point his reaction seemed far more fitting of town than scum.
4. BloodBeard seems like someone one would kill because he's in the middle. He isn't spewing detailed posts like ToonyMan, dakarian, or webadict, but he also isn't doing stupid things right and left that would get him lynched. Also, he tended towards lurkerdom, so he had very few damning connections to other people.
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Meph, what's the vote count? I need to see it.
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First off: finally the weekend, so I can post more regularly.
Second: i did a quick scan of what happened, and what I can pull:
UGG for Org being town. Usefull or not, any mislynch is a step toward a mafia win. It's also why I don't go right after lurkers unless they show something other than just lurking.
As for why Blood and not me: I'm tempted to think that they think I can be manipulated and am not around enough to be proactive enough. Simply put, GIGO. I have to make sure I'm not being fed what the mafia WANTS me to think. I'm bothered that I went towards Org there and don't want it to happen again.
As for who I think is scum: mind if I do a scan first? There HAS to be enough info to find someone manipulating things. For now everyone is on the table.
Be back with the results.
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And now, to webadict.
I may be going for easy lynches, but so are you. In fact, I'm the easiest lynch of the game. I have played half a game of mafia, in person, and that was it. Why do you think my posts sound so damnably confused? I am confused. I can't figure out what's going on, and I have people trying to kill me and defend me right, left, and center. What we have here is the strongest player of the game attacking the weakest player, without taking into consideration that the learning curve of forum mafia is particularly steep.
Why are you not going for more difficult people? ToonyMan, dakarian, and Free Beer are going to be far more challenging than myself, and you haven't even really nudged them. You may say that is because they have done nothing suspicious, but a more experienced player is going to be dropping fewer clues. Everyone in this game is spewing information. Surely somewhere in all that mess you can see something, even if I'm entirely blind to it.
Don't assume doctors, because they might not exist. You might certainly die, because you're a pain in the neck to deal with and kind of scary with your tendency to "instructive insults." Though you are saying dakarian is the most logical choice due to his analytical posts, that doesn't really make sense. You already stated that you were prone to walls of text as well, but other people don't like them. This means that you are capable of the same analytical spewage as dakarian, but you are hiding it from everyone with this flimsy excuse of PR. However, it is evident that you don't care that much about what other people think of you, given your predilection for personal attacks on other people. Your excuse is gone, and you're simply hiding behind a purported care for others' sentiments.
I was not the one who said everyone who lynched Org was suspicious and that there was no reason to. Do not conflate me with ToonyMan. I have even explicitly said that I trust dakarian--so again, we have the situation where you are either lying or can't remember what was said two pages ago. Given your memory of other events, I am forced to think that you are lying.
This is the most half-assed "going for eduren" I can imagine, in fact. I said this explicitly: "I am voting for eduren while I get myself combobulated." Currently, I am gunning for you. I am certain you can see the difference.
Next, you have a tendency to ignore people's questions. You don't get called on it, because you're Fortress Webadict, the Man of Crazy Tells. Well, perhaps you should answer them. There are several instances of this, and I don't see why you should be exempt from answering others' queries when everyone else is constantly forced to step up to yours.
I will also submit here that ToonyMan is getting away with FoS'ing four people simultaneously, where you are blaming me for voting one and FoS'ing another. Interesting--so the behavior is fine in Toony, but not in me? Furthermore, now you're accusing three people of being scum: myself, Jim Groovester, and dakarian. Would you mind picking and choosing some, rather than randomly flailing all over the place?
Then, you are accusing me of "trying to appear like I am scumhunting." No. I am trying to scumhunt. I pressured Org not because Org hadn't explained his reasoning, but because Org had not contributed anything to the dialogue--as I keep on saying. If I were attacking Org for failing to explain his reasoning, I would have tried to do the same to ToonyMan. You may note, however, that I didn't do so. Yes, I lurker-hunted. So did Jim Groovester, and yet for some reason you aren't jumping all over him and trying to eat him.
"This is the same. It's just a bad thing in general to ask. And then he generalizes the question. He's still NOT focusing. He's being as broad as he possibly can to avoid suspicion."
--Referring, of course, to my question to eduren and Org. I actually don't understand why this is a bad thing to ask. If you don't like the question, then perhaps you should have answered my query at the very beginning of the game--that being "How do I know the difference between a good question and a bad question?" No one answered, so of course I'm asking questions you think are dumb.
That three-way question was a final attempt to get more information out of the three potential lynchees. Pitting them against each other seemed like a good thing to do, though I suppose that in your book it isn't. Also, it makes sense that I added ToonyMan to the table, no? If I didn't add him and he ended up being scum, you would have tried to ream me for letting him slip by. Now you're trying to attack me because I added him. It seems that I would be attacked either way; once again you're probing me with yesterday's question, just wrapped up with a bow this time around.
No, the point is not that everyone else has to prove they're not mafia. The point is that I was going to say you had provided me with an unprovable conundrum (which I know know is called Burden of Proof), and then various other people showed up and said that you were being unreasonable. If I made a similar statement, you would be able to attack me for failing to come up with original material. If I said "I am scum-hunting and forcing people to actually show up for the game with useful information," you will tell me I am going for the easy targets. Someone has to do it. Everyone needs to be attacked at some point, and no one wants to be left with the burden of having "gone for the easy lynches." If I get lynched for attacking lurkers but you manage to find the scum there, it will have been worth it.
I didn't say I "just went along with lynching Org." What I said was that "Org was suspiciously silent." If you need me to blatantly say "I suspect Org, the silent one," then I can do that. I thought my voting was enough to say that I wanted him lynched and effectively express my opinion. If that's not enough, than what is? No, I didn't push that hard for Org. Surprisingly, I actually care about what other people think, and value their judgments. I'm playing this game to learn, and I can't do that if I'm trying to bowl everyone else over. So, I will say it even more explicitly: I wanted Org lynched. I made a mistake in my judgment and opinion, and probably should have listened to ToonyMan. Instead, I stuck to my guns. I was incorrect about him, and that's unfortunate.
Is that enough defense and attack for you, or do you require even more?
Unvote. Webadict.
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One of you is scum. I say double lynch! Hah! Just need a vote count...
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By the way, I'm sorry about any incoherency on my part. I'm still trying to figure out the insert quote function, so if any points need to be clarified I'll be glad to do so.
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One of you is scum. I say double lynch! Hah! Just need a vote count...
I think it's:
webadict - Jim Groovester, Vector
Vector - Free Beer, webadict
ToonyMan - eduren
abstain - dakarian, ToonyMan
but don't quote me on that.
First off, answers to Free Beer.
1. I kept my vote on Org because even with his defensive posts, he was still not providing useful information for the town. Though he managed to put up a mild shield, he did not answer any of the questions posed to him, and he defended himself only when it was easy and required no analysis.
Also, my thought was that webadict was a strong proponent of the Org lynch, while ToonyMan was going for eduren. Given that I considered ToonyMan town at the time (after his varied frustrated posts), I was more interested on getting information about webadict. Therefore, Org seemed like a better choice.
2. To be honest, I'm starting to draw away from eduren. He seems like a confused newb who doesn't really know what he's doing, and his behavior has greatly changed after complaints. Of course, that could be a mafia ploy... So, my suspicion is turning more strongly towards webadict, but I would not be at all surprised if he were working with eduren. I'll explain more about that later.
3. I am currently inclined to think that ToonyMan is town, mostly due to reading more posts of his in other threads. First of all, he seems to be acting normally for him; secondly, he has engaged in no behavior I can fully consider suspicious; third, he never reacted with panic or anger, but only frustration and a kind of weariness. Perhaps his emotional cloaking is better than I imagine, but at this point his reaction seemed far more fitting of town than scum.
4. BloodBeard seems like someone one would kill because he's in the middle. He isn't spewing detailed posts like ToonyMan, dakarian, or webadict, but he also isn't doing stupid things right and left that would get him lynched. Also, he tended towards lurkerdom, so he had very few damning connections to other people.
You just voted webadict. What do you think of Jim Groovester? Does his argument persuade you? Or are you voting webadict primarily on your own suspicions?
Also, what do you think of Jim Groovester's actions on Day One? How do you think they compare to your own actions in the same time frame?
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I'm going to hold my vote back right now then if it's even.
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I'm going to hold my vote back right now then if it's even.
Whoa, hold up. Why? Shouldn't you be judging it based on merit, rather than going with the majority?
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Ok. Fine. I'll vote webadict right now. I would like a double lynch.
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Ah, I was thinking that he wanted things to be more tense so that both of us had equal heat and were equally as likely to screw up.
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Ok. Fine. I'll vote webadict right now. I would like a double lynch.
Oh. That's what you were going for.
In order for a lynch to occur, over half of the players must have voted. The player with the most votes against them will be lynched. In the event of a tie no one will be lynched.
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Oh, I forgot about that. Great. There goes my game-breaking strategy dudes.
I'll keep my vote on webadict.
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The Whiteboard
ToonyMan: eduren
Vector: Free Beer, webadict
webadict: Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, Vector
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You just voted webadict. What do you think of Jim Groovester? Does his argument persuade you? Or are you voting webadict primarily on your own suspicions?
Also, what do you think of Jim Groovester's actions on Day One? How do you think they compare to your own actions in the same time frame?
Hurray, quote function vaguely figured out.
1. Jim Groovester's argument has little bearing on my own. Though I am of course thankful for him defending me, I can see situations in which webadict's sudden attacks on me could be valid. The rest of the dodging and weaving (and especially the lying), however, appears quite suspect.
2. I will admit that my actions were fairly similar to Jim Groovester's on the first day, but (from my end, at least), they were essentially independent. His reasoning seemed fine to me, and I don't have any strong suspicion of him (though some behavior did look vaguely like bandwagoning. It seems pointless, though, to suspect every second-voter). If I were to throw out a situation in which he might be scum, however, I'd go with a link between him and ToonyMan, with Toony providing the frustrated post and Jim pointing it out here.
Of course, I don't believe that. I'm just throwing it out there as one of many far-fetched possibilities.
I also find this post by webadict interesting:
Yes, I think eduren is very suspicious, but what about the others that choose not to post too often like Org, dakarian, Bloodbeard, or Jim Groovester? Have we forgotten them because they were silent?
To me, that sounds like someone who's trying to start a lurker-hunt.
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New developments are interesting and confusing. Ill Unvote for now. Some opinions when I get back.
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Alright, let's see
Warning: written during my scan.. so it starts off a little broken then rolls from there.
Vector
Random vote jim
Voted me (lurking). Felt Eduren was "a fool"
1. I'm not trying to vote eduren yet, so there are no contestas right now.
2. dakarian is an unknown quality. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but eduren seems like a fool. I will probably end up voting for him when it actually comes to lynching, but right now I think it's more important to get dakarian out here and talking.
It's not that I think dakarian is dangerous. It's that eduren seems not-that-dangerous, mostly silly. My guess is that he's going to get lynched, which would be good; however, before the end of the first day, I would really like more information from people like dakarian and whatever other lurkers I've forgotten about.
Now, it can make sense to go after me since I hadn't spoken yet, but you seem a little wish wash on Eduren. He's not dangerous, but he's going to be lynched.
Also, to ToonyMan: if you are a townie, perhaps you should be more helpful. Screwing around with eduren != helpful. We already know he's scummish. The fact that webadict and eduren want to lynch you doesn't mean they're scum, either. It means they think you're scum. Your logic is fallacious.
This has led me to be even more confused. You know he's scummish, but the fact that he wants to lynch toony may not mean he's scum? Do you think he's scum or do you not?
Apperently not, since after I softened your suspicions you aim for Org instead.
Sidenote: I also notice this:
So can I suppose a vote for Toonyman would be wasted?
Depends on wasted. If you maintain a line against him for a few days and he ends up flipping scum, you'll probably be absolved (because it would be kind of weird for scum to bus scum on the first day). If you maintain a line on him and he flips town, you are going to look pretty stupid/scummish. The optimization is up to you.
Given that you were the first to go after Org and, although casted lots of suspicion on Eduren, ended up being the first vote for Org during the final casting. By your own judgement, you don't look well.
Now that Org died:
2. At the moment, I'm vaguely worried about eduren and webadict, though I think the latter is much less likely than the former. The latter isn't an OMGUS FoS so much as wondering about what happened with Org, because it seems almost like we were leveraged by his superior knowledge of previous games of mafia to kill one of our own. Org's behavior definitely didn't help at all, but I think the eduren lynch would have gone through if not for webadict's accusation. I can't fully say that he's suspicious. He looks and smells town. However, I believe that the range of his experience would allow him to masquerade as such quite readily, while we trust his direction like blind sheep.
But you voted before Web. If Web is guilty of pushing for Org's death, what does it show of you who spearheaded the vote?
Then Jim defended you, leading to Web's logical falacy which had me jump at him. Then Jim says:
I think it's about time we start casting our final votes. We've discussed who's suspicious at length, but the day ends at 10:00 AM Pacific time tomorrow, and unless you plan on waking up before that time (I'm a college student, I certainly don't plan on it), the votes we cast before bed will probably be our last. I think we should reach some sort of consensus before that time, so that we don't waste an opportunity to get some actual information about somebody.
My vote on Org remains unchanged. If he's scum, he sucks at being scum. If he's town, he sucks at being town, too. He hasn't really satisfied anybody's suspicions, and has generally been uncooperative and defiant.
Now note, Vector wasn't the first to vote for Org... Jim was the first to vote for Org in a nonrandom way.
So.. Jim was the first to vote for org, though pulls away to OMGUS Blood (don't read too much there, it ended quickly), and later goes for Org again. Vector eventually votes for Org as well, no matter how 'scummy' eduren looks. Jim defends Vector against Web, then pushes to end the vote.
Now that the day is over, Web was 'pushing the vote for org' and Eduren is suspect, but STILL not voted on, and the two are STILL in sync.
The Whiteboard
ToonyMan: eduren
Vector: Free Beer, webadict
webadict: Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, Vector
Sidenote: Day 1's ending...
The Whiteboard
BloodBeard: Free Beer
Org: Jim Groovester, Vector, dakarian, webadict
ToonyMan: eduren
eduren: BloodBeard, ToonyMan
There, I answered the question of who I think is scum. Vote Jim, Vector tomarrow, unless you two could defend yourselves as Eduren did.
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Wow, that was VERY broken. 'Spearheaded' comment was due to me thinking Vector was the first vote. I had to look back to find that Jim was the first vote: Voted due to lurkingness, then turned to blood for a second, then turned to me for lurking, then BACK to Org.
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dakarian, I'm gathering from your post that anybody who could be convinced to vote for somebody could potentially be in league with each other. You voted for Org the last, so what does that say about you? Are you an accomplice to somebody? To Vector? To webadict? Or were you convinced to vote for him based on our claims against him? You didn't make the decision in a vacuum, that's for sure. So, what was it? Accomplice or evidence?
You're focusing on a potential connection between me and Vector today, because we both decided to vote for webadict. May I remind you that my suspicions for webadict began yesterday, way back when I suspected that he and eduren were working together, and my suspicions continue today. But I'm not the only one who suspected webadict. BloodBeard voiced his suspicions before he was killed yesterday, noting that webadict's claim of proof against Vector was odd, and Free Beer voiced his suspicions today, stating that he suspected webadict could be using his experience to throw all of us into chaos.
You also missed that ToonyMan voted for him. That's five people suspicious of webadict, at some level or another. Does voting on our suspicions somehow make us automatically in league?
Anyways, it's awfully interesting you don't find webadict suspicious in the least at all. And it is awfully interesting you decide to cast a net of suspicion over the people who most strongly suspect webadict. dakarian, you've earned an official finger of suspicion.
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Random vote jim
Blorgh. Sorry about that--I had no intention to vote for anyone. I thought the red text could be used to get the attention of the person you were questioning.
In that case: Unvote.
That was not a random vote for Jim. As previously stated, I had no intention of voting for him and did not in fact understand the practice of random voting.
Voted me (lurking). Felt Eduren was "a fool"
Also defended an array of people and gave them second chances, in hopes of finding actual scum and not going off randomly. You were one of those people. If I'm scum, why would I give you a second chance? You're clever. Do you think that if Jim and I were working in concert, we'd go for BloodBeard instead of webadict or you, given that both of you are running circles around the rest of us and BloodBeard was hardly saying anything?
Besides, if you're going to call me for being insulting and thinking eduren is being stupid, I think you should look at other people's behavior. Various people have called ToonyMan silly, and webadict has admitted to having a thing for insulting others.
1. I'm not trying to vote eduren yet, so there are no contestas right now.
2. dakarian is an unknown quality. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but eduren seems like a fool. I will probably end up voting for him when it actually comes to lynching, but right now I think it's more important to get dakarian out here and talking.
It's not that I think dakarian is dangerous. It's that eduren seems not-that-dangerous, mostly silly. My guess is that he's going to get lynched, which would be good; however, before the end of the first day, I would really like more information from people like dakarian and whatever other lurkers I've forgotten about.
Now, it can make sense to go after me since I hadn't spoken yet, but you seem a little wish wash on Eduren. He's not dangerous, but he's going to be lynched.
I considered him scum, but not dangerous scum. Dangerous scum is scum that can hide perfectly within the town. I thought of him more like pond scum, really. You can see it there and you can decide what you're going to do with it, rather than needing to take care of it ASAP and kill it. Besides, it might not even be scum, but something entirely different. Does that make sense to you, or would you like me to explain my thinking process further?
As previously stated, I'm willing to give people time to change their tune. The first day is about feeling people out. I do that by attacking and backing away, though apparently my particular style gets me tagged "wishy-washy." Why is it, then, that others are allowed to back off and send out general FoS's?
Also, to ToonyMan: if you are a townie, perhaps you should be more helpful. Screwing around with eduren != helpful. We already know he's scummish. The fact that webadict and eduren want to lynch you doesn't mean they're scum, either. It means they think you're scum. Your logic is fallacious.
This has led me to be even more confused. You know he's scummish, but the fact that he wants to lynch toony may not mean he's scum? Do you think he's scum or do you not?
I'm talking about mathematical logic here, not my emotions and suspicions. Eduren behaved scummishly. This does not mean he is scum. Obviously, this was true of Org--so it also may apply to eduren. Then, just because eduren wants Toony lynched very badly and Toony flips town does not mean that eduren is scum. I took exception to Toony's absolute statements, where it sounded like he was using deductive logic to arrive at faulty conclusions.
If you think I was being pedantic and taking things too literally... why, yes I was. I happen to like my logic clean and free of misuse.
Sidenote: I also notice this:
So can I suppose a vote for Toonyman would be wasted?
Depends on wasted. If you maintain a line against him for a few days and he ends up flipping scum, you'll probably be absolved (because it would be kind of weird for scum to bus scum on the first day). If you maintain a line on him and he flips town, you are going to look pretty stupid/scummish. The optimization is up to you.
Given that you were the first to go after Org and, although casted lots of suspicion on Eduren, ended up being the first vote for Org during the final casting. By your own judgement, you don't look well.
As you noticed, I wasn't the first vote on Org. I was also thinking in terms of the "lone holdout, who slowly gathers evidence on the same man for several days and then triumphantly leads a lynch on him" in my statement to eduren.
Additionally, It seems kind of odd that some people are complaining because I was too tough on Org and some are complaining because I was too wishy-washy, and both groups think I'm scum. Would you guys mind picking a story and sticking with it?
The same thing goes for my many suspected accomplices. If I were scum, you'd think I wouldn't be working with some five people in concert simultaneously. As far as I know, the town teams up and scum try to spread chaos among them.
Now that Org died:
2. At the moment, I'm vaguely worried about eduren and webadict, though I think the latter is much less likely than the former. The latter isn't an OMGUS FoS so much as wondering about what happened with Org, because it seems almost like we were leveraged by his superior knowledge of previous games of mafia to kill one of our own. Org's behavior definitely didn't help at all, but I think the eduren lynch would have gone through if not for webadict's accusation. I can't fully say that he's suspicious. He looks and smells town. However, I believe that the range of his experience would allow him to masquerade as such quite readily, while we trust his direction like blind sheep.
But you voted before Web. If Web is guilty of pushing for Org's death, what does it show of you who spearheaded the vote?
I said "Maybe Org is scum. He looks more scummy than eduren. Let us lynch him and find out."
Webadict said "Org is scum! Vector is scum! Both of them must prove they are town right this instant or die!"
I consider the latter pushing and the former non-pushing, mostly by looking at the level of violence/aggression in each. You may take that as you will.
So.. Jim was the first to vote for org, though pulls away to OMGUS Blood (don't read too much there, it ended quickly), and later goes for Org again. Vector eventually votes for Org as well, no matter how 'scummy' eduren looks. Jim defends Vector against Web, then pushes to end the vote.
Now that the day is over, Web was 'pushing the vote for org' and Eduren is suspect, but STILL not voted on, and the two are STILL in sync.
I keep on saying this, and it seems that no one is actually listening or reading my posts. If eduren's scum value was a 5, then Org was a 6. I considered Org's connections more valuable than eduren's. Let's say that Org's connections were worth two points and eduren's were worth .5. Then you take the larger to-lynch value--that is, 6 + 2 > 5 + .5--and I went for Org. How difficult is this to understand? There isn't any kind of ulterior motive here. I plugged in the data and took what seemed to be the logical choice. Dakarian, if you look at my posts this should be evident. I didn't do it with numbers before, but the statements line up with time.
Also, I think it's odd that people are trying to kill me for making informed decisions and changing my mind. The logic was outlined at all steps of the process, and should have been perfectly clear.
Blargh. I'd ask someone a question, but I'm pretty tired.
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dakarian, I'm gathering from your post that anybody who could be convinced to vote for somebody could potentially be in league with each other. You voted for Org the last, so what does that say about you? Are you an accomplice to somebody? To Vector? To webadict? Or were you convinced to vote for him based on our claims against him? You didn't make the decision in a vacuum, that's for sure. So, what was it? Accomplice or evidence?
Deja vu:
Unvote, then. I guess that explains the inactivity during the day.
back to the top of the list with Jim Groovester. What's your story?
Answer the question Jim! If that is your real name...
I'm trying to gather information and trying to make an informed decision about who to lynch on the first day.
That's my story, BloodBeard. What's yours?
Throwing the accusation back only works when you ANSWER IT FIRST. Failing to answer is similar to OMGUS voting without the vote trail.
To answer your question, it has been said that EVERYONE that voted for Org is suspect: Me, Web, You, and Vector. As such, it makes sense to be wary of me. One problem.. I provided posted evidence and analysis of why I linked you and Vector. Were's YOUR evidence of me and..who ARE you linking me with? EVERYONE? That's rather vague.
You're focusing on a potential connection between me and Vector today, because we both decided to vote for webadict. May I remind you that my suspicions for webadict began yesterday, way back when I suspected that he and eduren were working together, and my suspicions continue today. But I'm not the only one who suspected webadict. BloodBeard voiced his suspicions before he was killed yesterday, noting that webadict's claim of proof against Vector was odd, and Free Beer voiced his suspicions today, stating that he suspected webadict could be using his experience to throw all of us into chaos.
Not the whole story. If it was just you and vector vs web, I wouldn't have went after you. It was only when I saw that you two did the SAME THING to Org's lynch and then tried to link Web to it based on his experience. That, along with your heavy defense of Vector and quick finishing off of Org is why I wrote what I wrote.
So, explain why both you and Vector were the first to push Org's lynch and the ones to push finishing him off and yet are NOT suspect?
You also missed that ToonyMan voted for him. That's five people suspicious of webadict, at some level or another. Does voting on our suspicions somehow make us automatically in league?
We've been over ToonyMan before, though. He's a Jester without actually recieving the role :P. That's why the bandwagon on him died. Also note, he didn't vote for Org. You two are voting for web and Org.
In fact, 3/4ths through your post and you have NOT mentioned any defense on what you did to Org. Funny, since that's the majority of my argument.
Anyways, it's awfully interesting you don't find webadict suspicious in the least at all. And it is awfully interesting you decide to cast a net of suspicion over the people who most strongly suspect webadict. dakarian, you've earned an official finger of suspicion.
End of the post. Make note everyone:
My accusation post of you and vector was on how both you and vector started, ended, and heavily aimed to kill off Org, even when you had other ideas and even when others stepped up. I only finished off by talking about how you are trying to link the mess to webadict, and I don't NEED that to pin you two together. Meanwhile your reply tries NOT to accuse me for being scum, but tries to throw random information in my face OMGUS style, and a bit of random pointing at others over Web.
That's NOT good enough. I WoTed Eduren with a threat of LynchAllLiers. Did he try the "I know you are but what am I?" argument? No. He ANSWERED my threats with reasons and explanations. He spilled his guts and told what he could of himself. I dropped suspicions afterwards. I did the same to Web and he replied explaining likewise..not the BEST explanation but it was something. I left FoS on him but dropped vote.
I do the same to you and expect explanations, reasoned arguments, and a reason for me to turn from you two and aim at web and perhaps Toony again.
Summary for everyone else:
Jim votes Org first over silence, then keeps the vote when Org talks "because he's useless". He then drops the vote only to go after Blood via OMGUS, then me for MY silence. After I talk, he goes after Org again.
Vector votes Org over lurkiness after voting for me due to Silence. He was the second vote.
Web threatens Vector and Jim goes heavy to defend Vector against Web's threat. When Vector is no longer at risk Jim declares we end voting and lynch Org.
Day 2 comes and now Jim and Vector vote for Web, with a threat that he's masterminding the situation that led to the Org vote.
I'm a reasonable person. I'll listen to evidence why I'm wrong and own up to it. Guys, if you have a reason to believe that what I'm writing is wrong, even if it's 'gut instinct' then write up. However, if it sounds like what I'm writing is right then Vote Jim (forgot to color it last time) and let's end this nightmare.
Meanwhile Vector, I see your reply.. give me a second while I read it.
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The Whiteboard
Jim Groovester: dakarian
Vector: Free Beer, webadict
webadict: Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, Vector
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That was not a random vote for Jim. As previously stated, I had no intention of voting for him and did not in fact understand the practice of random voting.
I believe you're right (without looking at the thread. I do remember something about that).
Also defended an array of people and gave them second chances, in hopes of finding actual scum and not going off randomly. You were one of those people. If I'm scum, why would I give you a second chance? You're clever. Do you think that if Jim and I were working in concert, we'd go for BloodBeard instead of webadict or you, given that both of you are running circles around the rest of us and BloodBeard was hardly saying anything?
Unless I missed some posts, the only person you second chanced was me once I finally came here. Untill then, you were accusing me of lurking...
Wait a second:
The Whiteboard
ToonyMan: (2) - Free Beer, eduren
Vector: (1) - webadict
dakarian: (3) - Jim Groovester, Vector, BloodBeard
eduren: (2) - dakarian, ToonyMan
YOU TWO AGAIN!!! BOTH of you. DON'T bring up Bloodbeard: he voted but said I was innocent and wasn't there. You two were saying I was lurking.
So you two both voted for me thinking I was lurking, and when I stopped, you both dropped me afterwards and lynched org. Now you're both voting for web.
Besides, if you're going to call me for being insulting and thinking eduren is being stupid, I think you should look at other people's behavior. Various people have called ToonyMan silly, and webadict has admitted to having a thing for insulting others.
That was just a note of why you didn't vote for Eduren. It wasn't saying that it was scummy behavior. Basically keeping track of the whys.. not just the votes. Note that the argument was more about how you kept wishy washying Eduren's scummyness/unscummyness
I considered him scum, but not dangerous scum. Dangerous scum is scum that can hide perfectly within the town. I thought of him more like pond scum, really. You can see it there and you can decide what you're going to do with it, rather than needing to take care of it ASAP and kill it. Besides, it might not even be scum, but something entirely different. Does that make sense to you, or would you like me to explain my thinking process further?
As previously stated, I'm willing to give people time to change their tune. The first day is about feeling people out. I do that by attacking and backing away, though apparently my particular style gets me tagged "wishy-washy." Why is it, then, that others are allowed to back off and send out general FoS's?
Because most threaten, let the other defend themselves, then pull back. Again, I point to Eduren. Blah, I point to you right now. I threaten you, you defend, and if the defense works then I pull back.
You threatened and pulled back in the same post. That's not a true threat on Eduren. It's especially not when you leave your vote OFF him.
Contrast, I accuse you, I VOTE for you causing you to reply. THAT is accusation. If I pull my vote now, it'll because you've proven yourself to me and showed evidence.
In fact, why did "I" have to prove myself by posting before getting the vote off me while someone you truely felt was scum gets off with just a FoS? Once I proved myself, the vote should've went to Eduren, especially since Eduren's threats were fading away and Org wasn't exactly hiding well.
I'm talking about mathematical logic here, not my emotions and suspicions. Eduren behaved scummishly. This does not mean he is scum. Obviously, this was true of Org--so it also may apply to eduren. Then, just because eduren wants Toony lynched very badly and Toony flips town does not mean that eduren is scum. I took exception to Toony's absolute statements, where it sounded like he was using deductive logic to arrive at faulty conclusions.
If you think I was being pedantic and taking things too literally... why, yes I was. I happen to like my logic clean and free of misuse.
But it sounds too jumpy, not just literal. You accuse at the same time that you defend. Now if we add in what you just said now, you actually believed that he WAS scum and was just after the second one...so WHY defend him? Why not just say "He's scum, but not dangerous?" Why sound like you have doubts if, as you say now, you were sure?
If you weren't sure, why tell me now that: "I considered him scum, but not dangerous scum. " That sounds definite while your posts sound wishy washy. If you had said "I thought he could be scum but wasn't sure" it would make sense.. you say you felt he WAS... yet still wish washed.
Note, second chance =! wish wash. I'm GIVING you your second chance now and I voted to KILL YOU. I give you that chance but I show just how much I believe you're scum.
Passiveness is a mafia tell.
As you noticed, I wasn't the first vote on Org. I was also thinking in terms of the "lone holdout, who slowly gathers evidence on the same man for several days and then triumphantly leads a lynch on him" in my statement to eduren.
It actually tends to be the reverse then: fast accusation + town lynch = scum. Slow push + lots of evidence + town lynch = bold but mistaken townie.
But we're talking game theory :P. Your point is that you were thinking of a certain way and I can see that.
Additionally, It seems kind of odd that some people are complaining because I was too tough on Org and some are complaining because I was too wishy-washy, and both groups think I'm scum. Would you guys mind picking a story and sticking with it?
My story: You worked with Vector to remove Org and the wishywashy with Eduren + voting on me is being used for cover now (you might've meant to kill me off until I WoTed, which removed the chance of saying I'm not helpful). Eduren threatened you and jim defended you so you couldn't kill him. I didn't even LOOK at either of you and went after Eduren and Web so I was safe but too big to kill. Blood was an easy target..just like the 'silent ones' were.
Ignore the other stories.
The same thing goes for my many suspected accomplices. If I were scum, you'd think I wouldn't be working with some five people in concert simultaneously. As far as I know, the town teams up and scum try to spread chaos among them.
Note that 'grouping' is a scum tell, NOT a townie tell. Townsfolk try to work together like sheep..going their own way while trying to go in the same direction. A traditional scum tell is more like fish: in lock step with each other, with small bits of 'infighting' perhaps to throw off the trail.
I said "Maybe Org is scum. He looks more scummy than eduren. Let us lynch him and find out."
Webadict said "Org is scum! Vector is scum! Both of them must prove they are town right this instant or die!"
I consider the latter pushing and the former non-pushing, mostly by looking at the level of violence/aggression in each. You may take that as you will.
By the time Webadict made the threat, Org already had two votes against him. Note that my vote came AFTER Jim's call to lynch Org so I was more propelled by Jim than Web. All Web really did was put attention towards you by linking you with Org. Then Jim defended you until you were safe (note that I was less about defending you and more about telling Web that he wasn't using good reasoning AND getting derailed. He could've dropped Org's vote, aimed it at you and I would've pulled back to watch).
So again, you two started the bandwagon (two man bandwagon, BIG scum tell), one of you defended the other, then pushed to finish the lynch. Web SOUNDED more agressive, but it was you two that got Org killed. Nonagressive, but destructive. Perfect Mafia activity.
I mean, jeesh, I had to spend HOURS over the posts of Day 1 just to see how you two were connected with Org's kill. The way you two sound, Web did it all with the entire town in toe.
I keep on saying this, and it seems that no one is actually listening or reading my posts. If eduren's scum value was a 5, then Org was a 6. I considered Org's connections more valuable than eduren's. Let's say that Org's connections were worth two points and eduren's were worth .5. Then you take the larger to-lynch value--that is, 6 + 2 > 5 + .5--and I went for Org. How difficult is this to understand? There isn't any kind of ulterior motive here. I plugged in the data and took what seemed to be the logical choice. Dakarian, if you look at my posts this should be evident. I didn't do it with numbers before, but the statements line up with time.
Also, I think it's odd that people are trying to kill me for making informed decisions and changing my mind. The logic was outlined at all steps of the process, and should have been perfectly clear.
Blargh. I'd ask someone a question, but I'm pretty tired.
That MIGHT be why I voted for Jim instead of you first.
Well, to everyone:
Jim is clearly scumm.. I'm sure.. dead sure now. Vector has decent reasons and the biggest reason why I suspect him is because him and Jim were so lock step. Vector, you're still my top suspect, but I'm willing to read more and see if I can find more reasons to doubt. It's clear, though, the one beside you must die.
Thus, definatly vote Jim. Vector, you stated reasons why you aren't scum. Unless you have great reasons why JIM isn't scum, I'd advise you join us. Tomarrow, we'll talk more.
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I disagree. I still believe Vector is more scummy over Jim. Sure, Jim Groovester is suspicious, but I would rather lynch Vector.
I think having similar voting records isn't enough to pin them together. I think that one is merely following the other. Which one do you believe is doing the following?
I'm pretty sure Vector has, each time. I say that following is MORE of a scumtell than the straight-out accusing that Jim did. Sure, I think he's wrong, but that's a bold mafia member that would do that. I'm not saying it's impossible, merely improbable.
I dislike the way Jim jumps to Vector's rescue though. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Can this man not defend himself? However, it's less likely that scum jump to someone's rescue, as that would bring attention to themselves, as you've proven. That's why I am sure Vector is more likely scum. He's following and cautious.
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I understand, but that's assuming they would be too tricky to make that mistake.
I believe they DID make that mistake. I believe they didn't mean to work together, but both decided to go lurk hunting to cover themselves. Since ANY lurk hunter would start on me then turn on Org, it became natural for them to follow suit. The town turned away from that since townies tend to get affected by group think, and the 'group' was focused on Toony, either for or against him. Note they kept lurk hunting all through Day 1.
To be exact, though, it's Jim that made the mistake of grouping tendency when he started and ended the push for Org, defended Vector against you, then led the charge against you afterwards. He's bold and ready to accuse, as you can tell by his reply to me: the only one that attempted to attack my credibility rather than defend his case. Org looked scum.. scum enough to make it seem like a mistake, especially since the 'Big talkers' were a part of it. I think Jim got too eager in killing him and hoping to hide behind us while making sure Vector wasn't noticed at all.
Sidenote: you ARE the only one that really pushed for Vector's death. Otherwise, we would've forgotten they were there.
I'll put it another way: you believe Vector's guilty, and I can't and wont' defend him. I belive Jim is guilty. Can you really stand up and defend him and, very important, find someone else that's a better scum?
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No, I can't honestly think of a better lynch than either Vector OR Jim Groovester, if those were our only choices. Well, except maybe you, but that's a whole 'nother matter.
And I figured that I'd at least come up with sensible reasons why Vector should be lynched over Jim, but these are my opinions. These opinions are based on the facts that if we lynch Jim Groovester today, it may turn out he's town, in which case people may forget Vector, the mafia. If Jim turns out to be town, then I can only think that the scum team is Vector and dakarian, or in some very small chance ToonyMan and Vector.
The reason I want Vector gone is because, though he may be certainly the least dangerous scum, I am certain he is scum, as opposed to the others.
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We're just about in a flip exactly then. Except you seem less sure about Jim than I am about Vector.
And I just noticed something deeper: It's Mislynch and lose. It's 4 vs 2 now. If the next person that dies is town, after night kill it's 2 v 2: game over.
If we had time, I might've been content to go after Vector now to get things going fast then end it with jim. I can't be content with that. I KNOW Jim's wrong and, to apologize for the "assume I'm town" bit but, since the only person you really believe is mafia over Jim is me, I can be content in believing that there's no one else BUT Jim. The problem is simple: do you honestly believe I could be mafia over Jim, who's defended the person you sware is mafia from step 1?
You did do a few mistakes, but to assume Jim isn't mafia is to look at you as mafia, and I'm not willing to bet the game on you bussing Vector. As for proof of me... all I needed to do was join the bandwagon now and wipe you out in a lynch to win: Jim wants you dead, Vector would side with Jim over you, Toony probably wouldn't change since I helped save his life, and that's 4 to lynch. Instead I defended and struck at your accusers. If that's not enough proof, what is?
So I choose to see you as town since I believe Jim is THAT guilty. There's not much choice for you BUT to see me as town, no matter who else is scum.
I'm willing to risk the entire game on Jim's death. If you go with me and Jim flips town, it's over. I know that. I WILL risk it. Are you sure enough to bet the ENTIRE game on Vector and Toonyman?
As to why side with me over me side with you? There's NO chance of me being mafia now. I'm confirmed. If Free posts but doesn't vote, he's confirmed too. You have both scum on your vote list and, from your view, it's Vector and Jim or Vector and Toonyman. To me, you havn't QUITE been confirmed yet so there's a shadow of a sliver of a chance.
Thus I stay with Jim. You can either find a way to confirm yourself or find some evidence that proves Toonyman's guilt. Meanwhile, TOONYMAN PLEASE UNVOTE NOW!
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You're wrong. There's 7 people alive...
It's not mislynch or lose.
And yes. I've seen plenty of crazy things in mafia games. It's possible. I'm not assuming he's not mafia. I'm just assuming you ARE. And as that involves lynching Jim and not Vector, because Vector is your partner, then that's a possibility.
And just because you defend me doesn't mean you're town. The very face can be explained with Jim. Just because he protects scum doesn't mean he's scum.
And you agree that Vector should be lynched, because he's always the teammate. Therefore, I'm going for the obvious scum than the maybe scum.
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You're wrong. There's 7 people alive...
It's not mislynch or lose.
1 * Jim Groovester
2 * dakarian
3 * ToonyMan
4 * eduren
5 * Vector
6 * Free Beer
7 * webadict
Of course, that requires us having 8 or so people who'd like to play who don't have much experience with Mafias yet.
MOTHER#@($#@%* I thought there was 8 at start, and I forgot about Eduren!!!
Well, that changes things. Vector can go. Then all I need to do is prove that I'm less scummy than Jim.
Unvote. Vote Vector
We'll settle this tomarrow then, once either the two on the sidelines/afk votes with us or else Toony gets off of you.
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dakarian, your post is full of inaccuracies, and you didn't really answer my questions to you. Instead, deflections, webadict style.
Deja vu:
Unvote, then. I guess that explains the inactivity during the day.
[BloodBeard and my quote edited out]
Throwing the accusation back only works when you ANSWER IT FIRST. Failing to answer is similar to OMGUS voting without the vote trail.
You're going way back to the beginning of Day 1? That was before you had even talked at all. You were still a complete unknown, and I wanted to hear what you had to say, and I wasn't the only one. Then, when you spoke, I backed off because I was satisfied by your explanation.
And then, you come on here today, and begin linking people together because of that? Let's examine your post:
Wait a second:
The Whiteboard
ToonyMan: (2) - Free Beer, eduren
Vector: (1) - webadict
dakarian: (3) - Jim Groovester, Vector, BloodBeard
eduren: (2) - dakarian, ToonyMan
YOU TWO AGAIN!!! BOTH of you. DON'T bring up Bloodbeard: he voted but said I was innocent and wasn't there. You two were saying I was lurking.
Is that BloodBeard I see in there, voting for you as well? If you're going to link everybody who ever voted for you together as scum, I couldn't think of better company to keep than our confirmed innocent townie, BloodBeard.
And why not bring up BloodBeard? Our actions in regard to our early vote against you were identical. You spoke, and all the votes disappeared in their entirety, did they not? So why is BloodBeard innocent here, but Vector and me are not?
In fact, 3/4ths through your post and you have NOT mentioned any defense on what you did to Org. Funny, since that's the majority of my argument.
I voted Org initially to get him to talk, much in the same way I voted against you. Org proved to be defiant and unhelpful, even deliberately so. Frustrated by his continued refusals, I let my vote against him stand. Later in the day, webadict delivered Org's famous tell, and then Org being the mafia became certain in my eye. That's why I voted Org.
I can't defend my reason to vote for Org further than what I stated when I cast my vote.
Not the whole story. If it was just you and vector vs web, I wouldn't have went after you. It was only when I saw that you two did the SAME THING to Org's lynch and then tried to link Web to it based on his experience. That, along with your heavy defense of Vector and quick finishing off of Org is why I wrote what I wrote.
So, explain why both you and Vector were the first to push Org's lynch and the ones to push finishing him off and yet are NOT suspect?
First things first, I'm not the one who suggested that webadict was the one who sealed Org's lynching by leveraging webadict's greater experience, that was Free Beer. I'm flattered that you would attribute this to me, but you are mistaken on that point.
Second, I didn't finish off Org. It wasn't Vector either. Take a look at the record. The votes on Org proceeded with me being the first, Vector second, webadict third, and you fourth. webadict's vote pushed Org's lynching into majority, and it was your vote that sealed his fate. So I didn't finish off Org, it was you and webadict that did.
So why did you and webadict decide to cast your votes against Org? You answered my question towards you with this:
To answer your question, it has been said that EVERYONE that voted for Org is suspect: Me, Web, You, and Vector. As such, it makes sense to be wary of me. One problem.. I provided posted evidence and analysis of why I linked you and Vector. Were's YOUR evidence of me and..who ARE you linking me with? EVERYONE? That's rather vague.
That's hardly an answer at all. I asked you a direct question about your motivations to lynch Org, and instead, you respond with some vague statement about everyone's guilt in lynching Org. A simple, "I voted to lynch Org because he seemed to be the most guilty at the time," would have been a good answer. Instead, you beat around the bush. I mean, you could've stuck to your original reasoning you made when you voted for Org, but you didn't.
That's pretty suspicious.
End of the post. Make note everyone:
My accusation post of you and vector was on how both you and vector started, ended, and heavily aimed to kill off Org, even when you had other ideas and even when others stepped up. I only finished off by talking about how you are trying to link the mess to webadict, and I don't NEED that to pin you two together. Meanwhile your reply tries NOT to accuse me for being scum, but tries to throw random information in my face OMGUS style, and a bit of random pointing at others over Web.
Other ideas? What other ideas? I listed my suspicions several times. Should I have acted on those other suspicions instead of my suspicions on Org? This flat out doesn't make any sense. I should be flailing about and accusing other people with no evidence, going solely off of my suspicions, instead of focusing in on the target that was acting most suspiciously? But why?
As I said above, the suggestion that webadict was involved in Org's death as a mastermind was Free Beer's idea. I highlighted it in my accusation towards webadict, but that was not my primary evidence.
And about me not accusing you: I can only formally accuse one person at a time. You and webadict are working together, that I'm certain of, but I voted webadict first, and I am not letting go. The random information you speak of isn't random. They were suggestions, that's for sure, based on your behavior when you accused me. But with the way you're coming after me now, it's quickly becoming certainty.
That's NOT good enough. I WoTed Eduren with a threat of LynchAllLiers. Did he try the "I know you are but what am I?" argument? No. He ANSWERED my threats with reasons and explanations. He spilled his guts and told what he could of himself. I dropped suspicions afterwards. I did the same to Web and he replied explaining likewise..not the BEST explanation but it was something. I left FoS on him but dropped vote.
I don't know what the hell you're talking about because I don't know any mafia jargon and I don't hide behind it like you.
I see you left a little room for suspicion for webadict. Don't want it to be too obvious the two of you are working together.
I do the same to you and expect explanations, reasoned arguments, and a reason for me to turn from you two and aim at web and perhaps Toony again.
ToonyMan?? Why would I want to convince you to go after ToonyMan? I defended the guy yesterday! Why would you mention some other target that you want to be convinced to go after, and a target I defended, no less? Goodness gracious, why don't you get a brand labeled "AIFAM" and stamp it on your forehead. This is an enormous tell, and a foolish and careless one, too.
Summary for everyone else:
Yes, a summary, so that everyone will ignore what you've said and instead focus on your conclusions that aren't even accurate anyway.
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...
Either dakarian and webadict are a really good scum team or Jim and Vector are scum.
Unvote.
Vote Vector.
If Vector comes up...
Scum, then we know who the other scum is and will most likely win.
Town, then webadict and dakarian are the scum and we're screwed.
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I still don't trust webadict. He's alive Day 2.
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Unvote.
Vote Vector.
Well, that puts four votes for Vector, which is an unbeatable majority with the seven of us.
ToonyMan, it's exactly as you describe, but the situation is exactly the same if webadict gets lynched as it is if Vector gets lynched. If he's scum, we know who the scum is. If he's town, we still know who the scum is, but the town is in a worse position.
If you don't trust webadict, why did you change your vote from him to Vector? That's a gamble that works in favor of the guy you don't trust.
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*grumble grumble*
Let me try to simulate this.
We lynch Vector...
* Jim Groovester
* dakarian
* Org - TOWN
* ToonyMan
* eduren
* BloodBeard - TOWN
* Vector - TOWN
* Free Beer
* webadict
Oh noes he's town!!! Night goes by...
* Jim Groovester
* dakarian
* Org - TOWN
* ToonyMan
* eduren
* BloodBeard - TOWN
* Vector - TOWN
* Free Beer - TOWN
* webadict
Free Beer is dead! We would have 5 total people and 2 mafia. We lynch webadict because by this point he's scum.
* Jim Groovester
* dakarian
* Org - TOWN
* ToonyMan
* eduren
* BloodBeard - TOWN
* Vector - TOWN
* Free Beer - TOWN
* webadict - MAFIA
Yah! Next night goes by.
* Jim Groovester
* dakarian
* Org - TOWN
* ToonyMan
* eduren - TOWN
* BloodBeard - TOWN
* Vector - TOWN
* Free Beer - TOWN
* webadict - MAFIA
It's just us three! Seeing that webadict was scum we vote dakarian and....
* Jim Groovester
* dakarian - MAFIA
* Org - TOWN
* ToonyMan
* eduren - TOWN
* BloodBeard - TOWN
* Vector - TOWN
* Free Beer - TOWN
* webadict - MAFIA
We win. 2 town left.
So....
That means if we lynch Vector and he is town. We would still win if webadict and dakarian are scum. Because THEY WOULD BE.
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I'm glad there's a winning scenario.
By why start with Vector? Why not start with the guy you don't trust?
Or do you not trust Vector, either?
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The Whiteboard
Vector: Free Beer, ToonyMan, dakarian, webadict
webadict: Jim Groovester, Vector
Reminder: Day 2 ends ~10am Tuesday
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I don't trust anybody. We need to get the scum. If Vector turns up town we should be ok anyway.
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I still don't trust webadict. He's alive Day 2.
That's Day 3. I always die Day 3.
But, I'm not mafia. I can tell you that. And I'm sure Vector is mafia. But don't group the scum like that. I'm telling you, that it may just as well be dakarian and Vector as it is Jim Groovester and Vector. Just because Vector jumped onto Jim's accusation does NOT make Jim scum. Don't confuse that. I'm not saying Jim is definitely town. I'm merely saying that you shouldn't count him out as an obvious scumteam.
And, please don't leave out eduren. He's around here somewhere. He may very well be lurking. He's not the most suspicious, but he's there, certainly.
And if the Doctor's smart, he'll protect Free Beer. :)
Also, Cop, investigate me or dakarian.
Also also, I'm going away for two days or so. I'll be back eventually!
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I was planning to do another WoT to reply to Jim.. if you still want it jim I'll post it.
However, I think Toony said it best: Vector's scumminess will kill you Jim while his Towniness will kill me and web. It's a gamble we'll just have to accept.
Btw, Jim.. why AREN'T you accepting it? You already see that we'll still win if Vector flips town. Why are you STILL defending him? Why do you trust him so much?
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And, please don't leave out eduren. He's around here somewhere. He may very well be lurking. He's not the most suspicious, but he's there, certainly.
Been sort of intimidated by the Walls of text. I can say thought that i agree with dakarian, Jim has continued to defend Vector in the face of the majority, something a Townie wouldn't do.
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I was planning to do another WoT to reply to Jim.. if you still want it jim I'll post it.
However, I think Toony said it best: Vector's scumminess will kill you Jim while his Towniness will kill me and web. It's a gamble we'll just have to accept.
Btw, Jim.. why AREN'T you accepting it? You already see that we'll still win if Vector flips town. Why are you STILL defending him? Why do you trust him so much?
So I just have to accept that you two scum are going to lynch an innocent townie, just because there's a win in there either way? No, I can't accept that. It doesn't concern me that Vector's lynch would inevitably prove that I am town, I don't want him lynched because he's innocent. It would be another wasted lynch, just like Org.
And you can keep your wall of text. I don't need to see another poorly thought piece full of suspicious mafia tells that everybody just ignores anyway.
Been sort of intimidated by the Walls of text. I can say thought that i agree with dakarian, Jim has continued to defend Vector in the face of the majority, something a Townie wouldn't do.
Wait, why wouldn't a townie want to defend somebody against the suspicious 'majority'? I don't follow.
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Wait, why wouldn't a townie want to defend somebody against the suspicious 'majority'? I don't follow.
Because townies shouldn't trust people. By defending him, you trust his claims of innocence (because if that defense turns out to be wrong, you are extremely suspicious).
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Wait, why wouldn't a townie want to defend somebody against the suspicious 'majority'? I don't follow.
Because townies shouldn't trust people. By defending him, you trust his claims of innocence (because if that defense turns out to be wrong, you are extremely suspicious).
I guess scum should trust each other then, right? dakarian trusts everything webadict says.
I don't so much trust Vector's claims of innocence as I do distrust claims of his guilt. Do I need to repeat why I accused webadict? It was not because I believed Vector, it was because webadict's accusations were empty. I suppose if attacking the empty accusations amounts to defending Vector, I guess I am.
If his claims of innocence are proven to be correct, then I was right to defend him, and I am additionally proven to be innocent. That's a fair gamble to make in my favor, but I would rather be lynching scum to win this game sooner than lynching innocents to prove that I am innocent.
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All right. I can see that you want to lynch me, and that's fine. I wish you wouldn't, and it's kind of stupid, but if that's how it's going to go then I understand. First of all, however, I have some questions to ask you. I have a few more posts after this, but I'm going to break them up this time--hopefully you'll actually read them this time.
Though I understand that people take suspected scum with a grain of salt, it seems downright inconsiderate to not even read/respond to what I have to say.
1. To dakarian, ToonyMan, and Free Beer: Why does it not worry you that webadict never answers any of the questions posed to him, and did not respond to my defense?
2. Dakarian, you seem very frightened. Why are you so scared, if you're town? It shouldn't bother you to have webadict suspect you, other than the fact that townies around him tend to die. You're suddenly making grammatical and spelling mistakes all over the place. You're also yelling.
3. Dakarian, if you think we should lynch all liars, why does Webadict's lie not bother you? He accused me of doing something ToonyMan had done, and then refused to answer my allegations. Is he fine because you're in league with him?
4. Webadict: why aren't you answering any of my questions or responding to me?
5. Webadict: why do you trust Free Beer, and why do you think the scum will NK him?
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We'll lynch webadict the next day if you're town. Isn't that right webadict?
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I disagree. I still believe Vector is more scummy over Jim. Sure, Jim Groovester is suspicious, but I would rather lynch Vector.
I think having similar voting records isn't enough to pin them together. I think that one is merely following the other. Which one do you believe is doing the following?
I'm pretty sure Vector has, each time. I say that following is MORE of a scumtell than the straight-out accusing that Jim did. Sure, I think he's wrong, but that's a bold mafia member that would do that. I'm not saying it's impossible, merely improbable.
I dislike the way Jim jumps to Vector's rescue though. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Can this man not defend himself? However, it's less likely that scum jump to someone's rescue, as that would bring attention to themselves, as you've proven. That's why I am sure Vector is more likely scum. He's following and cautious.
I didn't follow on dakarian. I provided my reasons for attacking you, which you still haven't addressed.
Also, I can defend myself. I just had a couple of busy days in there. If you read my defenses, you would know that I was capable of self-defense.
Please also read the note I am about to post to dakarian. It explains some of the reasons behind "following and cautious."
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Also defended an array of people and gave them second chances, in hopes of finding actual scum and not going off randomly. You were one of those people. If I'm scum, why would I give you a second chance? You're clever. Do you think that if Jim and I were working in concert, we'd go for BloodBeard instead of webadict or you, given that both of you are running circles around the rest of us and BloodBeard was hardly saying anything?
Unless I missed some posts, the only person you second chanced was me once I finally came here. Untill then, you were accusing me of lurking...
I second-chanced Org in the beginning, when Jim wanted to lynch him. I second-chanced eduren. I second-chanced you. I kept things open for webadict when he was attacking me, on the off chance that he was just being extremely careful. I also defended webadict from ToonyMan's allegations.
You said you were going to wait until he slipped. I have documented an array of slips. You have ignored them. I accused him of lying. You ignored that, too.
You requested that I defend myself. You have ignored my defenses. You're panicking and getting excited because you're going to be able to take me down before webadict destroys you--is that it? If you're so afraid of webadict, maybe you should go after the hard lynch instead of, say, lynching townies.
That's NOT good enough. I WoTed Eduren with a threat of LynchAllLiers. Did he try the "I know you are but what am I?" argument? No. He ANSWERED my threats with reasons and explanations. He spilled his guts and told what he could of himself. I dropped suspicions afterwards. I did the same to Web and he replied explaining likewise..not the BEST explanation but it was something. I left FoS on him but dropped vote.
I do the same to you and expect explanations, reasoned arguments, and a reason for me to turn from you two and aim at web and perhaps Toony again.
I've given my explanations and reasoned arguments. I will post them again in a more concise format, if I have to. Please just listen to me, because it seems like no one else is.
I considered him scum, but not dangerous scum. Dangerous scum is scum that can hide perfectly within the town. I thought of him more like pond scum, really. You can see it there and you can decide what you're going to do with it, rather than needing to take care of it ASAP and kill it. Besides, it might not even be scum, but something entirely different. Does that make sense to you, or would you like me to explain my thinking process further?
As previously stated, I'm willing to give people time to change their tune. The first day is about feeling people out. I do that by attacking and backing away, though apparently my particular style gets me tagged "wishy-washy." Why is it, then, that others are allowed to back off and send out general FoS's?
Because most threaten, let the other defend themselves, then pull back. Again, I point to Eduren. Blah, I point to you right now. I threaten you, you defend, and if the defense works then I pull back.
You threatened and pulled back in the same post. That's not a true threat on Eduren. It's especially not when you leave your vote OFF him.
Contrast, I accuse you, I VOTE for you causing you to reply. THAT is accusation. If I pull my vote now, it'll because you've proven yourself to me and showed evidence.
In fact, why did "I" have to prove myself by posting before getting the vote off me while someone you truely felt was scum gets off with just a FoS? Once I proved myself, the vote should've went to Eduren, especially since Eduren's threats were fading away and Org wasn't exactly hiding well.
I've already explained this, but I will explain it one more time. Eduren might have been scum, but I didn't know. I didn't have enough information yet. You proved yourself, and then the vote went to Org because he looked more suspicious than eduren. Why lynch eduren if Org looked worse? It seemed pointless. So, I didn't go for the eduren-lynch. I don't want to answer this question again.
I'm talking about mathematical logic here, not my emotions and suspicions. Eduren behaved scummishly. This does not mean he is scum. Obviously, this was true of Org--so it also may apply to eduren. Then, just because eduren wants Toony lynched very badly and Toony flips town does not mean that eduren is scum. I took exception to Toony's absolute statements, where it sounded like he was using deductive logic to arrive at faulty conclusions.
If you think I was being pedantic and taking things too literally... why, yes I was. I happen to like my logic clean and free of misuse.
But it sounds too jumpy, not just literal. You accuse at the same time that you defend. Now if we add in what you just said now, you actually believed that he WAS scum and was just after the second one...so WHY defend him? Why not just say "He's scum, but not dangerous?" Why sound like you have doubts if, as you say now, you were sure?
If you weren't sure, why tell me now that: "I considered him scum, but not dangerous scum. " That sounds definite while your posts sound wishy washy. If you had said "I thought he could be scum but wasn't sure" it would make sense.. you say you felt he WAS... yet still wish washed.
Note, second chance =! wish wash. I'm GIVING you your second chance now and I voted to KILL YOU. I give you that chance but I show just how much I believe you're scum.
Passiveness is a mafia tell.
I accused ToonyMan of bad logic (possibly unintentional, though possibly scummy) and defended both eduren and webadict. I didn't defend myself. If you think my posts are jumpy... well, okay. I guess you're entitled to your opinions. I will submit here, however, that I'm not the one spewing exclamation points and blocks of capitalization.
Yeah, I jumped on someone for using bad logic. What do you expect? I'm a math major. I plan on spending the rest of my life looking for logical fallacies and improper deductions. Bad logic literally makes me feel sick.
Why defend eduren? Because I didn't know if he was scum or not. I thought he was scum, but there was space for other interpretations, as there always are. I didn't know. I'm willing to defend anyone, because the truth is worth more than my life.
And again: I considered him scum. It is definite that I considered him scum. It is not definite that he is scum. Therefore, if you asked me "Is eduren scum or not," I would say "Well, maybe. Probably. Dunno." If you asked me "Do you think eduren is scum," I would say "Yeah, I think he's scum, though there is a high degree of uncertainty." These are two different interpretations. I use the word "consider" as a much weaker variant of "think" or "believe."
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm weaseling out. I tend to think very literally, and flexibility with language is not my forte.
Passiveness is not only a mafia tell. It's also a character trait. Take a look at the passiveness, in combination with the niceness--the tendency to defend everyone, even my enemies. The tendency to apologize to people before I insult them. The tendency to give second chances. My desire to not feel rude by evading questions, thus answering anything that comes up to the best of my ability. Doesn't that all go together pretty well?
It also fits with the sort of person who is part of a forum for six months and then only posts three times. Don't mistake scum passiveness for genuine introversion, shyness, and uncertainty.
Is this not gut-spilling enough for you? I'm already telling you that I have trouble using language flexibly and that in real life I'm a doormat. I also told everyone that this is essentially my first experience with mafia. Of course I'm making lots of mistakes. Of course my posts aren't that analytical, and of course I seem to be behaving kind of oddly. It's surprising that you didn't lynch me on day one.
If there are further questions, I will answer them to the best of my ability.
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Trying HARD not to WoT this one.
Vector, apologies if you've written about it several times before but, you said that you have evidence of Webadict's slips. Mind putting them all down in a post. It'll be easier to see them if they are all spilled out in a row. I said I do listen, and, even at the 11th hour, I'm listening now.
That's the most important part of my reply, so I'm posting just that now. I'll post on the rest afterwards.
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Not exactly the 11th hour. We have until Tuesday.
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I think he means "I'm about to die, and they're pretty sure of themselves."
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And to dakarian:
The first WoT on page 26 is where I confronted webadict with some of his errors. If you want me to document the many, many questions webadict has ignored, I can do that. It will take a while, though.
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Now, for the rest, though there's not much to say. You asked if that was gut-spilling enough. I say that was VERY MUCH a gut-spill, and helpful in answering to a lot of the accusations.
A thing about my fear: To me, this is the game maker. Whatever we set up here will determine how the rest of the game will flow. There won't be much discussion tomorrow, just a quick sum up of today with a quick lynch. I honestly believe that if we lynch a scum today, we'll win, even if we lynch town tomorrow.
Want to know something weird that may derail all this? I could set the motions of the game very easily I think..by choosing two people, then demanding everyone to lynch me. I swear, the two I pick will die. It's just the smallest doubt that I may pick wrong that holds me, since two town lynches is our loss.
Your words about web hit that doubt square on. That's why I want your evidence of him. I'm not going to listen to Jim anymore.. he's distracting and screwy, and OMGUSing. Why did I listen to Web and go for you then? I thought "Vector will flip scum, then I just have to beat Web in a debate to get Jim killed over me.. or at least make sure the town goes for Jim over Web if I can't beat Web". If I'm afraid, Jim's in a panic over seeing you die, even if it leads to his victory.
That's the one thing that just keeps nagging at me, and, if you noticed, I keep coming back to it: the idea of you and Jim being linked. It's been the elephant in the room as far as your posts have been, but it's been a major point of my argument. As of now it's just about the only thing left not discussed enough. The others seem to have picked up on it as well.
I'll be blunt, you two are acting like masons. For all that Jim says he's not truly marking you town, he's willing to bet the game on your innocence. You don't mention him much but you've never put to post "Perhaps he is scum". Web WANTS me dead. I stop my aggression to listen when you say you have proof on Web. We're not friends. You two clearly are.
I'm giving you some credit over all of your arguments (thus why I'm not dealing with them directly at the moment). This is the only point you have NOT brought up. It's the point that's putting the noose on your head.
So, why WON'T you even consider the idea of Jim being mafia?
Answer that, and provide that info on web, and..well.. we'll see.
Fake edit: Just read you last reply Vector. I'll head back to P26 and read. Write up if there's anything else.
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1. Jim Groovester's argument has little bearing on my own. Though I am of course thankful for him defending me, I can see situations in which webadict's sudden attacks on me could be valid. The rest of the dodging and weaving (and especially the lying), however, appears quite suspect.
2. I will admit that my actions were fairly similar to Jim Groovester's on the first day, but (from my end, at least), they were essentially independent. His reasoning seemed fine to me, and I don't have any strong suspicion of him (though some behavior did look vaguely like bandwagoning. It seems pointless, though, to suspect every second-voter). If I were to throw out a situation in which he might be scum, however, I'd go with a link between him and ToonyMan, with Toony providing the frustrated post and Jim pointing it out here.
Of course, I don't believe that. I'm just throwing it out there as one of many far-fetched possibilities.
You mentioned that you are thankful for Jim's defense of you, and in fact have not defended yourself on at least one occasion due to this fact. Why do you think he is defending you?
And could you elaborate on your opinion of Jim's argument against webadict; especially the part where he implicitly claimed Cop but has yet to deliver the goods?
If you are wrong, and webadict is town, what role do you think he has? Townsperson, Cop, or Doctor?
And what do you think of ToonyMan's planned scenario for the game?
1. To dakarian, ToonyMan, and Free Beer: Why does it not worry you that webadict never answers any of the questions posed to him, and did not respond to my defense?
webadict's posts, especially his response to my initial attack in the beginning of Day One, give me the distinct impression that webadict intends to reveal as little information about himself as possible. He's putting on his best poker face, insofar as a poker face can be put on over the internet. I'm not worried about the fact that he isn't responding to your defense, because I already know that even if he did, he would not be giving any useful information anyway.
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I've stated that webadict and dakarian were working together, so I might as well highlight the suspicious exchange they had. I can deliver a wall of text for my evidence, if you'd like.
First, webadict is not giving dakarian the same level of scrutiny as he did towards me and Vector, although 'scrutiny' is a relative term here. webadict, who stated that he suspected dakarian during their conversation, is not seizing immediately upon dakarian's suspect tells as he's done in the past for other people. He is also amicable instead of confrontational, which is atypical for him for when he's talking to someone he suspects.
Second, dakarian has delivered several suspect tells that everybody seems to be ignoring. First, he stated that he's open to listen to other evidence in regards to webadict or ToonyMan. I find it extraordinarily suspicious that he would even mention other targets that he would be willing to go after. He also mentioned webadict as a potential target, which is inconsistent with the position he adopted during their conversation, where he tried to prove himself as town to webadict. So, according to dakarian, he's open to evidence against webadict, but webadict is town, and feels it's necessary to get webadict to admit this. Inconsistent, to say the least. Besides, there's plenty of reason to suspect webadict, so dakarian is deliberately ignoring that evidence.
Third, I find it suspicious that dakarian separated himself from the town during their conversation, and grouped himself with webadict. Like he forgot that he was supposed to be masquerading as a townie.
Fourthly, dakarian was certain that I was scum, so he voted for me, but during the course of the conversation, he changed his vote to Vector. He is definitely pliable to suggestion from webadict.
Finally, the timing of their exchange is suspect. I openly suspect that webadict and dakarian were working together, and then they have this staged exchange where webadict deliberately distances himself from dakarian.
And that was all from their most recent exchange. We can go farther back, to where I first accused webadict, and he stated that he would have killed dakarian in the night for his analytical responses. And then there was dakarian's accusation of webadict near the end of Day 1, where dakarian boldly stated that he wouldn't let webadict's mistakes slide, and dakarian certainly followed through with that.
Indeed, dakarian and webadict are both targeting the same people, dakarian rushes to attack webadict's accusers in webadict's defense, and they only give token suspicion towards each other. They are working together. They might've gotten away with it, but dakarian is giving themselves away.
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Sidenote: Anyone notice by now that I write these replies as I read them, instead of just reading the whole thing at once? I do go back and change things but that's how it first comes out. :P
And now, to webadict.
I may be going for easy lynches, but so are you. In fact, I'm the easiest lynch of the game. I have played half a game of mafia, in person, and that was it. Why do you think my posts sound so damnably confused? I am confused. I can't figure out what's going on, and I have people trying to kill me and defend me right, left, and center. What we have here is the strongest player of the game attacking the weakest player, without taking into consideration that the learning curve of forum mafia is particularly steep.
Sadly enough, that can add to Web's suspicion. Confusion is actually a Mafia tell. The idea is that the Mafia would be too frightened to make any direct statements in case they are wrong, so they play 'confused'. It's a similar mentality to why I fussed about Wishy Washyness.
Why are you not going for more difficult people? ToonyMan, dakarian, and Free Beer are going to be far more challenging than myself, and you haven't even really nudged them. You may say that is because they have done nothing suspicious, but a more experienced player is going to be dropping fewer clues. Everyone in this game is spewing information. Surely somewhere in all that mess you can see something, even if I'm entirely blind to it.
He answered that. Toony's behavior makes him look scum even when he isn't. If I remember it right, Web and his town was burned when they lynched Toony for the same issue in a past game. I read through that game before playing here and I also thought Toony was scum till rollflip.
Sidenote: Apologies Toony.
Me.. he not only suspects me but WILL aim to kill me once he takes you down first.
Free Beer.. he's flown under the radar. NO ONE suspected him so far. I tried to find something and can't find anything. Web's probably in the same position. You seem to be in it too.
Don't assume doctors, because they might not exist. You might certainly die, because you're a pain in the neck to deal with and kind of scary with your tendency to "instructive insults." Though you are saying dakarian is the most logical choice due to his analytical posts, that doesn't really make sense. You already stated that you were prone to walls of text as well, but other people don't like them. This means that you are capable of the same analytical spewage as dakarian, but you are hiding it from everyone with this flimsy excuse of PR. However, it is evident that you don't care that much about what other people think of you, given your predilection for personal attacks on other people. Your excuse is gone, and you're simply hiding behind a purported care for others' sentiments.
If I'm getting it right, you're basically saying that Web should've died last night, being the biggest threat. Web used me as an excuse, but that's not really enough to prove it.
Another person said it best: Blood was a 'safe kill'. He had no enemies, no threats. Web had threatened you. Killing Web would mark you scum. If you aren't mafia, the real one wanted you and him to debate it. If you are mafia, you'd rather not bring attention to yourself.
I'll admit, though, it does give suspicion that Web's still alive, even after all I said.
I was not the one who said everyone who lynched Org was suspicious and that there was no reason to. Do not conflate me with ToonyMan. I have even explicitly said that I trust dakarian--so again, we have the situation where you are either lying or can't remember what was said two pages ago. Given your memory of other events, I am forced to think that you are lying.
Similar to what I hit Jim with just earlier. Note that I got burned by that by Eduren who, I believe now, was more of a slip up than a lie. Nice catch either way.
This is the most half-assed "going for eduren" I can imagine, in fact. I said this explicitly: "I am voting for eduren while I get myself combobulated." Currently, I am gunning for you. I am certain you can see the difference.
Next, you have a tendency to ignore people's questions. You don't get called on it, because you're Fortress Webadict, the Man of Crazy Tells. Well, perhaps you should answer them. There are several instances of this, and I don't see why you should be exempt from answering others' queries when everyone else is constantly forced to step up to yours.
I'll need to back to find those questions
I will also submit here that ToonyMan is getting away with FoS'ing four people simultaneously, where you are blaming me for voting one and FoS'ing another. Interesting--so the behavior is fine in Toony, but not in me? Furthermore, now you're accusing three people of being scum: myself, Jim Groovester, and dakarian. Would you mind picking and choosing some, rather than randomly flailing all over the place?
He answered that. Vector and me are scum to him. Jim's odd but town.
The rest was mostly a matter of defense, and this isn't about your defense at the moment, but your offense on Web. Most of it is useful, but not deadly, except the talk of questions. For that, I'll have to go diving.
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Jim. Vector's post inavertedly made me think of something. I wrote about it two replies ago. Be sure to read it.
You're still bent.. BENT on defending Vector and going after me. I still have the small bits of doubt but if I have to gamble I will. So..let's gamble.
Jim, if you're SURE me and web are scum.. make the bet with your life. Vote me. If anyone else even has a feeling that Jim might be correct, join him. Lynch me.
WHEN I flip town, you die, Jim.
Right now, I'm still pointing the second finger on Vector. I need to go back on his posts though. He swears Web ignored his questions. I'm giving him THAT much. If I see enough.. perhaps.. PERHAPS, I'll turn to Web instead. Don't bother arguing for Web's death, though. It doesn't matter WHAT happens now. You Will Be Lynched. I'll listen to Vector, Web, and all of the spectators watching for the rest of this day over whether Web or Vector are scum. It'll take a LOT to make me turn away from Vector.. but I will listen.
But the game goes only two ways. If you trust me, go after Vector today unless I say otherwise. If you don't trust me completely, Lynch me today, then lynch who I tell you to lynch tomorrow and the day after.
So Jim. Willing to take that bet? Remember.. Townies are bold and willing to die for their cause. Mafias bluff and fold when the chips come down. My soul is prepared. How's yours?
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To say it plain so people don't play dumb.
Everyone!
I'm going to do a final test on Vector's claim. Until then, do THIS.
If you trust me, Vote Vector today and Jim tomorrow.
If you DON'T trust me, Lynch ME. When I turn Town, Kill Jim THEN Vector.
NO ONE ELSE! Kill me or Vector. Don't worry about looking scum for killing me: I TOLD you to do it and it would confirm EVERYTHING I say. For the good of the town, choose ME or him.
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For now, Im convinced. Vector
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Don't let a doubt slip in. If you doubt me at all, or if you even question that Vector is town, I'd rather you kill me now, while there's time, than kill me later in Lynch or Lose.
I don't even want the "Well, he bluffed that KNOWING that people would trust him" argument. You fling that, you are scum. Simply put. If you think you'll say that, Vote me.
There's the smallest chance Vector is town: the reason why I'm going over his questioning of Webadict. Wishy washy? #&$#)% yah it is. I can lay my cards down now. It might be Jim and Webadict, with Jim pinning Vector and Web playing smart. If Vector DOES turn town, and you turn on me THEN, we'll lose. If you think that has a CHANCE of happening, Vote me.
If you're using Vector to prove whether me and web are innocent, use me instead. Vote me.
Jim. Doesn't matter what you do. You'll die either way.
Vector, either declare to all that I am confirmed as a Townie in your eyes, or kill me while proving Web's guilt. Your only chance to survive if you're town is to convince me, then kill me or join me.
Toony, you sound like you're flexing.. you might as well vote for me. Again, I TOLD you to do it, so don't let people pin you scum for lynching me.
This isn't a bluff or a "Prove I'm town by being an insane Kook". I'm the &#*($ Ghost of this game now! Either side, 100% with me or kill me then follow my words. The only way you'll lose is if I'm wrong.
..which is why I'm trembling now. Oh well.
So.. am I your confirmed townie, or am I your ghost?
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To say it plain so people don't play dumb.
Everyone!
I'm going to do a final test on Vector's claim. Until then, do THIS.
If you trust me, Vote Vector today and Jim tomorrow.
If you DON'T trust me, Lynch ME. When I turn Town, Kill Jim THEN Vector.
NO ONE ELSE! Kill me or Vector. Don't worry about looking scum for killing me: I TOLD you to do it and it would confirm EVERYTHING I say. For the good of the town, choose ME or him.
Your plan hinges on the fact that Jim is scum and you are town. Vector/anyone but Jim or you and we've lost.
If you truly are town, your plan will only succeed in forcing us into a "lynch or lose" situation. We would be better off voting Jim now instead.
I'm not buying into your plan, not because I doubt you, but because your plan is just plain stupid.
I'm ready to announce my final vote, but will wait for Vector's reply to my last questions.
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Yes.. more posts. Completing my search on Webadict.
Web, first off.. you might as well vote for me. You're after me, you want me dead. You're sure I'm scum. I know you're more stubborn and if you hold back now you'll STILL be suspicious of me. Let's not play games. Just lynch me.
Then it becomes a matter of making sure you don't die with me.
I looked back.. you HAVE been rather nonanswering of questions. You ask.. a lot of questions, but don't answer them well. Time for you to answer some.
1. Why have you been after Vector since Day 1? You keep saying "he'll prove it". I didn't like it. I DON'T like it. It's time you end it. Please answer that question.
No.. don't JUST use Day 2's evidence. That's useful, but you accused him on day 1. No, don't say "I said it before". If you did, quote the post. I want it all NOW, from Day 1 to now, why you SWARE he's guilty.
2. To webadict: if I were scum, why would I kill BloodBeard?
In fact, let's just go all out. For now, let's just pretend I'm NOT scum to you. You can pick out any other person to be with Vector, except me. You'll need this logic tomorrow anyway so just play along.
Now, please, tell me why BloodBeard would be killed. In fact, as best you can, if Vector and someone else is scum, what are their plans. Why are they doing what they doing in the day and why did they kill BloodBeard at night?
Please don't play the "I don't have to answer.. you're scum" line. This post will be used as evidence tomorrow. These are the questions you did NOT answer so far. If you want Vector dead and not yourself, please answer them. I gave Eduren, Jim, and Vector this chance. Eduren proved himself. Vector gave himself this shot via you. Jim failed, miserably. If you fail, you die. If you defend yourself, Vector dies.
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@ Free Beer
Yes, this is insane, I know. However much I'm afraid of a Lynch of Lose messing up, I'm MORE fearful of this:
Townie dies Day 2. Mafia kills someone else.
Day 3, I'm lynched due to looking scummy. I'm Town.. mafia wins.
I guess there is a third option. I already declared Jim dead. He'll die no matter what. Why wait? If he dies, I can still hunt for the last mafia, and still use this threat to confirm myself. I mean, if you use KISS.. I'm debating over Vector or Web, but marked Jim for death.. so why am "I" not voting like that?
Very well. UnVote Vote Jim
And no.. I stopped being rational a few posts ago. At least I'm not WoTing so much.
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Jim, if you're SURE me and web are scum.. make the bet with your life. Vote me. If anyone else even has a feeling that Jim might be correct, join him. Lynch me.
Ha ha, no. Would you be making this 'gamble' if there was even a snowball's chance of hell in you being lynched today? I doubt it. You claim to be desperate, but you're perfectly safe.
If you already had a few votes, then maybe this gamble might be credible, but right now you're just bluffing. Bluffing, bluffing, bluffing, bluffing, bluffing.
I think you're seriously overestimating the impact you have on our discussion, and this game.
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Note.. he's not voting for me.
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And curse the lack of edits.
Things change now. Vote me or Jim. Same story though.. if I die, Jim dies tomorrow.
Jim.. why are not NOT voting for me to 'call my bluff'? If I'm scum and you're town, then voting for me is enough to confirm you. Who'd argue against you if I'm scum?
Only reason why you won't call my bluff is if you think I'm NOT bluffing.
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Is your gamble conditional on me voting for you?
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Should I mention that dakarian just started to scrutinize webadict's posts, because I just said that he and webadict were only giving token suspicion towards each other?
Yes, I suppose I should.
Keep flailing about, dakarian. Not only is it entertaining, it's illuminating, too.
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Not really. It's conditional of everyone else voting for you OR me. You can vote for whoever you want. By not voting for me, though, you cement your scumminess. You're willing to accuse me left and right and swear I'm scum, but are unwilling to put the vote to the test. Nevermind the 'Web looks worse' bit. If I'm scum and die, you can easily get web killed and win the game, AND protect Vector. No one else dies but scum.
So what, you DON'T want me dead now? Am I town to you now? Am I scum but still worth keeping alive? Are you unsure what to do?
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Again, I'll put it plain.
If I'm scum, VOTE FOR ME, Jim. DO IT! What's stopping you?
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*sigh*
I'm tired of being baited by you.
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Baited? Funny that. I'm tempting you to vote for me, and that's BAD for you to do. Why is that?
Why is it 'baiting' for "scum" to get you to lynch them? The only way to 'vote bait' is for a townie to get scum to vote for them. When the townie flips, the scum gets voted dead.
Well, there's also the "pretend to request a self lynch but don't get lynched" but that's beaten by LYNCHING the person. So..what other ways are there to 'bait' someone into voting for them?
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Sigh... Jim, he has a point. Can you explain why your vote stays on Web?
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Eduren, I want your opinion on a few things. You may be intimidated by the long posts, but I'm sure you have some thoughts of your own. At the moment, you seem to just be following dakarian's directions.
So:
1. What do you think of the sudden fight that has broken out between dakarian and Jim? Which one is scum, and who is his partner?
2. What do you think of my allegations vs. webadict?
3. Do you still suspect ToonyMan? If not, please write out the list of people you find most suspicious, in order, with your reasoning. Please also explain why your opinion of ToonyMan has either changed or remained the same.
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That's the one thing that just keeps nagging at me, and, if you noticed, I keep coming back to it: the idea of you and Jim being linked. [...]
You don't mention him much but you've never put to post "Perhaps he is scum". [...]
So, why WON'T you even consider the idea of Jim being mafia?
Answer that, and provide that info on web, and..well.. we'll see.
I don't know if you missed the post where I thought about Joe being mafia, but here is some of what I said:
I don't have any strong suspicion of him (though some behavior did look vaguely like bandwagoning. It seems pointless, though, to suspect every second-voter). If I were to throw out a situation in which he might be scum, however, I'd go with a link between him and ToonyMan, with Toony providing the frustrated post and Jim pointing it out here.
To summarize: "Jim could be scum. I could conceive of Toony being his partner, in that case." In other words, I am not completely certain that Jim is town. I happen to think he is, however. I considered the idea of him being mafia, and then I threw it out. Unfortunately, not every piece of my thought process is available to you.
Both Jim and I are raw newbies. As far as I know, neither of us has really played the game before. Therefore, we are both surprisingly open to suggestion. Both of us are going to be playing pastiche-games--in other words, we're going to take our strategies from other people. We're going to be following. We learn just like everyone else: first we copy, and then we create our own material.
To be honest, I think the reason why he is "defending" me so much is because I've been both away from the computer and under suspicion. I don't have a chance to say anything, but others think they should step in. I'm sure you understand--you've defended me twice, after all.
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Sigh... Jim, he has a point. Can you explain why your vote stays on Web?
Because I will not lend credibility to dakarian's plan by voting for him. He directly challenged me, and I refused. So he challenged me even more, and I still refused. So I got the feeling that this brilliant plan of his requires my vote to lend it legitimacy. So I refused.
What else would you like? His gamble is idiotic. He's trying to portray himself as some sort of martyr, as a savior to the town, but he's under absolutely zero threat to be lynched today. He's trying to define the terms of the discussion as a binary choice between either Vector or himself, and he broke those terms by voting for me. His whole gamble seems like a knee-jerk reaction to me detailing webadict and dakarian's suspect relationship.
webadict and dakarian are working together. webadict is the smart one, and dakarian will continue to make mistakes. So my vote stays on webadict. Since he's better at concealing his guilt, he's the more dangerous scum. dakarian, on the other hand, will likely make several more mistakes, and nobody will forget this brilliant plan of his come tomorrow. He can be dealt with later.
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Eduren, I want your opinion on a few things. You may be intimidated by the long posts, but I'm sure you have some thoughts of your own. At the moment, you seem to just be following dakarian's directions.
So:
1. What do you think of the sudden fight that has broken out between dakarian and Jim? Which one is scum, and who is his partner?
2. What do you think of my allegations vs. webadict?
3. Do you still suspect ToonyMan? If not, please write out the list of people you find most suspicious, in order, with your reasoning. Please also explain why your opinion of ToonyMan has either changed or remained the same.
1. I admit that I am finding myself agreeing with dakarian. But not in his entirety.
For now, Im convinced. Vector
That post originally read
For now, Im convinced. Jim Groovester
Because Jim has acted alot scummier than you have. Then i see my old friend, the "someone-posted-already" warning. Its dakarians "Everybody listen up" post. His "Good of the town" spiel had me convinced and so i switched my vote to you. I believed you to be acting scummier than dakarian and thought that his plea was reasonable.
I still believe Jim to be acting scummier than you and plan to re-evaluate my vote when Jim explains himself further. As for his partner, I would place it as either you or Toonyman.
2. Ill have to ask you for a summary of them other than "he's not answering questions". While yes his evasiveness is worrying, it may just be a dismissive and condescending attitude that is causing it.
3. Yes i still suspect him, however the Day 2 drama has caused me to focus my attention elsewhere. I know that unless he weighs in on the recent matters and somehow slips up, it will be impossible to lead an angry mob in his direction. Therefore i have set myself to either hunt down his accomplice, or in the face of overwhelming evidence, admit my mistake. But i would really like to hear from him some more, if only just a vote.
Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Dammit, gimme a sec.
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Sigh... Jim, he has a point. Can you explain why your vote stays on Web?
Because I will not lend credibility to dakarian's plan by voting for him. He directly challenged me, and I refused. So he challenged me even more, and I still refused. So I got the feeling that this brilliant plan of his requires my vote to lend it legitimacy. So I refused.
What else would you like? His gamble is idiotic. He's trying to portray himself as some sort of martyr, as a savior to the town, but he's under absolutely zero threat to be lynched today. He's trying to define the terms of the discussion as a binary choice between either Vector or himself, and he broke those terms by voting for me. His whole gamble seems like a knee-jerk reaction to me detailing webadict and dakarian's suspect relationship.
webadict and dakarian are working together. webadict is the smart one, and dakarian will continue to make mistakes. So my vote stays on webadict. Since he's better at concealing his guilt, he's the more dangerous scum. dakarian, on the other hand, will likely make several more mistakes, and nobody will forget this brilliant plan of his come tomorrow. He can be dealt with later.
He's not the only one that can make wild gambles...
I propose that we call his "bluff". According to him it won't matter if he is lynched so i propose that we do just that. The only reason you haven't jumped on it is because it is not certain that you will get the necessary votes.
If You vote for dakarian, then i will do likewise. (I assume that Vector will do so also).
If dakarian is scum, as you claim, then this offer will be impossible to turn down.
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Alright, eduren. I agree to your proposal. If I will vote for dakarian, then you will vote for him as well.
That makes two of us. But before I change my vote, I want to hear from Vector, ToonyMan and Free Beer about it. If we're going to call him on his bluff, we might as well make certain about it.
So, Vector, ToonyMan, and Free Beer, what will it be? Will you help eduren and me call dakarian's bluff?
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Like I don't know dood, but I simulated this thing dakarian. If we lynch a town by accident we can still win easily.
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Toony, your analysis is a reason why I felt good about this idea. I noticed that everyone seems to be looking at me bad, but are willing to just bearly trust me.. for now. Some are just after others at the moment, while others are judging on whether I hit properly. I'll have to shake that off for three days to keep alive and if we guess wrong day 2 or 3, the mafia will try to make me the last lynch. I'm a liability now.
Meanwhile, if I can solve the puzzle NOW, post everything here, then confirm it as town, we'll match your "oh no, we hit town' theory. I'd rather gamble on that.
Call the bluff, Toony. Vote me. That'll force Jim and eduren to vote. That'll give me 3 votes in majority.
Btw, Vector, a question: assuming I'm town, who would you think are the two mafias? Your vote is still on web so I'm guessing you still think it's web+me. Without me, though, who else?
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Meanwhile:
Don't think I forgot you Web. There's a post I have directed at you a few replies back. I suggest you read it and answer.
Because right now, I'm thinking of declaring that you die after Jim, not Vector.
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The Whiteboard
Jim Groovester: dakarian
Vector: Free Beer, ToonyMan, eduren, webadict
webadict: Jim Groovester, Vector
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Unvote.
Vote dakarian.
I got this.
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Btw, Vector, a question: assuming I'm town, who would you think are the two mafias? Your vote is still on web so I'm guessing you still think it's web+me. Without me, though, who else?
As I've previously stated a few times, I consider you town. Your "masterminding" behavior is rather suspect--why are you trying so hard to control the entire course of the game if you're not scum?--but I still consider you far less suspicious than webadict.
Webadict's partner is... I'm not sure, actually. I could believe that eduren is scum that got away, as he continues to bandwagon and play foolish with impunity. As far as I can see, his forgiven status of Day One has allowed him to get away with a lot of lurking and bandwagoning. I think it will be extremely unfortunate if he's scum and manages to get past us just because we went after Org. It also seems odd that webadict jumped in and accused Org, another easy-lynch, just after eduren was about to be offed. The votes on Org prior to that were (stated to be) instigated due to lurking and general unhelpfulness, with the promise that they would move back to eduren if Org provided some information. Webadict's was the first flat-out accusation, and moved the group's attention over to Org. I can certainly see webadict doing this to help out eduren.
If I had to pick a pair, then, it would be webadict/eduren, though I could conceive of it being webadict/someone generally disconnected from him. I don't see webadict working with you or with Jim, though his insults and derision directed towards the latter might serve as an attempted distancer.
So, in summary: if I had to pick one, I'd go with webadict/eduren. The latter part of the pairing is more of a guess than anything else, so don't get too excited about it. Webadict is still the one I'm really worried about.
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So, Vector, ToonyMan, and Free Beer, what will it be? Will you help eduren and me call dakarian's bluff?
Maybe. I trust both of you, and this situation seems kind of outrageous. For the moment, I'm sticking to my guns. If it comes to a no-lynch vs. dakarian lynch, though, I will definitely join you.
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I still believe Jim to be acting scummier than you and plan to re-evaluate my vote when Jim explains himself further. As for his partner, I would place it as either you or Toonyman.
Ill have to ask you for a summary of them other than "he's not answering questions". While yes his evasiveness is worrying, it may just be a dismissive and condescending attitude that is causing it.
All right, fair enough. Another question, sorry.
What makes you think Jim is working with ToonyMan, other than that you suspect them both? Have you seen any signs of them working together?
And as for your summary, here it is:
1. Webadict is going for easy lynches.
2. If he were town, you'd think he would have died on the first night. He may be the natural person for doctor protection, but that assumes that doctors exist.
3. He doesn't provide information to others, and continually runs away from questions he doesn't like.
4. I caught him lying.
5. He directed the newbies to start a lurker hunt (in a pedagogical tone), and then proceeded to attack them for it--even though he signed up to lead us through the first day. I personally thought that meant we were supposed to listen to him and take his instruction. Apparently not.
To Everyone:
If anyone else is considering eduren for webadict's partner, you should note that this lurker-hunt webadict seems to have touched off started in response to attacks on eduren.
Dakarian suggested a lynch for one slip-up. Here are five. Hopefully, I will be able to gather even more.
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... Quadruple-post? What the heck... anyway, here's your response, Free Beer.
You mentioned that you are thankful for Jim's defense of you, and in fact have not defended yourself on at least one occasion due to this fact. Why do you think he is defending you?
As previously stated, I think he is defending me for several reasons. First off, he believes me to be town, and valuable enough to put his life on the line for. Second of all, we seem to think similarly--defense of group beliefs. Third, he has ended up defending me while I was away from the computer and unable to respond. The last reason is probably the key. I would have written up a defense, but I was busy due to other things occurring in my life. Then, given my long absence, he decided to step in.
And could you elaborate on your opinion of Jim's argument against webadict; especially the part where he implicitly claimed Cop but has yet to deliver the goods?
I am assuming that here, "he" refers to Jim Groovester, and that you're talking about the argument from day one? Would you mind clarifying the question? I'm not sure if there's some specific post you're alluding to.
If you are wrong, and webadict is town, what role do you think he has? Townsperson, Cop, or Doctor?
If he's town, I'm guessing he's a townsperson--though I don't really have any strong suspicions either way. We don't even know if a cop or doctor exists, and I don't trust his claim of being a cop. He said he'd have more information after the night--implying that he was going to investigate--but instead he seems to have been bluffing/lying again. I don't see any reason to think he would be the doctor. To be honest, he's being a bit too nonchalant about his life (though that may be intentional).
So, in short: he looks like scum to me. If he's town, I'd guess he's a run-of-the-mill townsperson.
And what do you think of ToonyMan's planned scenario for the game?
It makes me a feel a bit more secure about another town lynch, but I would be surprised if everything turned out so well. Essentially, he's trying for a game where two townies die, and then we manage to get two scum in a row. If we mislynch for either of the last two, though, we're dead. To be honest, I envy his self-confidence.
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And could you elaborate on your opinion of Jim's argument against webadict; especially the part where he implicitly claimed Cop but has yet to deliver the goods?
I am assuming that here, "he" refers to Jim Groovester, and that you're talking about the argument from day one? Would you mind clarifying the question? I'm not sure if there's some specific post you're alluding to.
Jim Groovester's argument against webadict at the beginning of Day Two was that webadict implicitly claimed Cop at the end of Day One (proof etc), but has yet to actually come out and say it. That is the part of Jim Groovester's argument against webadict that I am most interested in hearing your opinion on.
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Jim Groovester's argument against webadict at the beginning of Day Two was that webadict implicitly claimed Cop at the end of Day One (proof etc), but has yet to actually come out and say it. That is the part of Jim Groovester's argument against webadict that I am most interested in hearing your opinion on.
I think I've already addressed this in a couple of other posts, but I'll summarize.
1. Webadict vaguely claimed both cop and doctor, and has failed to deliver the goods. This looks suspicious to me, so I figure that he is none of the above and is, at the very most, town.
2. I have a fairly large number of reasons why I suspect webadict, which I have outlined. Only one of those has anything to do with Jim's arguments.
3. Because I do not really know how to rolefish, I can't tell if Jim is rolefishing or not. I do think, however, that if rolefishing is occurring, then webadict invited it with his false claim and is now trying to attack Jim for addressing bait. Perhaps Jim is rolefishing. Perhaps webadict is lily-innocent. For now, I'm sticking with my story.
4. I also find it suspect that webadict was not even willing to answer eduren's question on what rolefishing is (middle of page 25). This is not someone who is trying very hard to help the newbies.
That's the answer to all questions that have been posed to me, I think. If I missed anything, please let me know.
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Call the bluff, Toony. Vote me. That'll force Jim and eduren to vote. That'll give me 3 votes in majority.
Not necessarily. Three votes is not enough to make a majority when there's seven of us. With your vote on me and the rest on Vector, it would be a tie, and nobody gets lynched.
Anyways, ToonyMan is a definitely on the dakarian bluff call, and eduren and I are definitely on it if there's at least one other person who's a definitely. Vector said he'd definitely do it if there was no lynch situation today, so he's a maybe. Free Beer hasn't given his opinion on it yet. I'll avoid changing my vote, because I think there might be some motion against webadict today. He'd be the more important lynch today, rather than giving dakarian what he wants.
Vector, Free Beer, what do you think of my evidence on dakarian and webadict's suspect relationship? It looked like it may have been lost in the middle of dakarian's reckless gamble.
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Alright, dakarian. I'll bite.
I suspect two people more than I suspect Jim, but dakarian is not one of them. Jim's recent actions aren't exactly helping his case, either.
Unvote. Vote Jim Groovester.
Alright, eduren. I agree to your proposal. If I will vote for dakarian, then you will vote for him as well.
That makes two of us. But before I change my vote, I want to hear from Vector, ToonyMan and Free Beer about it. If we're going to call him on his bluff, we might as well make certain about it.
So, Vector, ToonyMan, and Free Beer, what will it be? Will you help eduren and me call dakarian's bluff?
Not necessarily. Three votes is not enough to make a majority when there's seven of us. With your vote on me and the rest on Vector, it would be a tie, and nobody gets lynched.
Let me get this straight, Jim: you want to vote dakarian, but you won't vote dakarian unless everybody else does too? That's like bandwagoning, only worse. You aren't acting with the town's interests at heart. You only care about reducing the amount of suspicion that heads your way. You're acting like scum.
Vector, Free Beer, what do you think of my evidence on dakarian and webadict's suspect relationship? It looked like it may have been lost in the middle of dakarian's reckless gamble.
I don't think your evidence is any more convincing than the evidence I have of webadict's suspect relationship with you. He voted you only very briefly and accused you once more, and you led a rather ineffectual campaign against him today. Meanwhile, halfway through Day Two, webadict switched gears and started defending you from the people who tried to group you with his intended target for the day, Vector. I consider that about equally as suspicious as his interactions with dakarian. I'd question you if I had more time, but I don't. I'll just accuse you instead and see how badly your story cracks under the pressure.
My full list of suspicions against you, Jim Groovester:
-You marked Org for death even from the beginning of Day One. You claimed Org was lurking at the beginning, but kept your vote on him anyway when you noticed he still posted. You occasionally got sidetracked with other lurkers, but you still came back to Org.
-You were very jumpy during Day One. You asked that I clarify the context of a post that was addressed to BloodBeard. Why? Obviously you must have thought it was addressed to you. Paranoid about being suspected, are you?
-You defended Vector on multiple occasions. Defending other people does not help the town. If someone is being accused or questioned, the intent is to determine that person's guilt. If someone were interested in your guilt, they'd question you instead.
-As previously noted, I suspect webadict heavily. His above described suspect behavior regarding you, combined with the obvious lack of relationship between Vector and webadict, leads me to believe you are probably webadict's partner in scum.
-On the off-chance that Vector, my other main suspect, is scum, the strong connection between the two of you leads me to believe that you would also be his partner in scum.
-dakarian is willing to risk the fate of the entire game on your scumminess. Something has to be up with that. I'd expect a scum ploy like this if it were lynch or lose, but we've still got at least one, probably two more days left.
-You're trying to organize a bandwagon on dakarian without actually taking the risk of voting for him. It's been repeated numerous times in this game: caution is a scum tell.
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All right. I can see that you want to lynch me, and that's fine. I wish you wouldn't, and it's kind of stupid, but if that's how it's going to go then I understand. First of all, however, I have some questions to ask you. I have a few more posts after this, but I'm going to break them up this time--hopefully you'll actually read them this time.
Though I understand that people take suspected scum with a grain of salt, it seems downright inconsiderate to not even read/respond to what I have to say.
1. To dakarian, ToonyMan, and Free Beer: Why does it not worry you that webadict never answers any of the questions posed to him, and did not respond to my defense?
2. Dakarian, you seem very frightened. Why are you so scared, if you're town? It shouldn't bother you to have webadict suspect you, other than the fact that townies around him tend to die. You're suddenly making grammatical and spelling mistakes all over the place. You're also yelling.
3. Dakarian, if you think we should lynch all liars, why does Webadict's lie not bother you? He accused me of doing something ToonyMan had done, and then refused to answer my allegations. Is he fine because you're in league with him?
4. Webadict: why aren't you answering any of my questions or responding to me?
5. Webadict: why do you trust Free Beer, and why do you think the scum will NK him?
4. I am answering all questions as I am aware of them, except those I have explicitly stated not answering, for reasons either publicly declared or privately held and later publicly declared. If I miss some of them, it is because I tend to skip over posts while I read sometimes.
5. If I were scum, I would kill someone with either no suspicions on them, or someone I KNOW would never get protected. Hence why I would've killed dakarian, since I'd obviously believe I have the doctor protection, and he wouldn't. I'd also believe that I would be getting the Cop's action as well, and I'd probably be looking for him first Day.
Yes.. more posts. Completing my search on Webadict.
Web, first off.. you might as well vote for me. You're after me, you want me dead. You're sure I'm scum. I know you're more stubborn and if you hold back now you'll STILL be suspicious of me. Let's not play games. Just lynch me.
Then it becomes a matter of making sure you don't die with me.
I looked back.. you HAVE been rather nonanswering of questions. You ask.. a lot of questions, but don't answer them well. Time for you to answer some.
1. Why have you been after Vector since Day 1? You keep saying "he'll prove it". I didn't like it. I DON'T like it. It's time you end it. Please answer that question.
No.. don't JUST use Day 2's evidence. That's useful, but you accused him on day 1. No, don't say "I said it before". If you did, quote the post. I want it all NOW, from Day 1 to now, why you SWARE he's guilty.
2. To webadict: if I were scum, why would I kill BloodBeard?
In fact, let's just go all out. For now, let's just pretend I'm NOT scum to you. You can pick out any other person to be with Vector, except me. You'll need this logic tomorrow anyway so just play along.
Now, please, tell me why BloodBeard would be killed. In fact, as best you can, if Vector and someone else is scum, what are their plans. Why are they doing what they doing in the day and why did they kill BloodBeard at night?
Please don't play the "I don't have to answer.. you're scum" line. This post will be used as evidence tomorrow. These are the questions you did NOT answer so far. If you want Vector dead and not yourself, please answer them. I gave Eduren, Jim, and Vector this chance. Eduren proved himself. Vector gave himself this shot via you. Jim failed, miserably. If you fail, you die. If you defend yourself, Vector dies.
I don't have to answer, scum!
Psh. Why would I ever say that?
1. I had a feeling it was him, due to his nature. Though recent events have led me to believe something odd is happening...
2. Well, I explained right above the post actually. Free Beer is the least likely to get Doctor protection. Well, not really anymore.
2b. If I were to assume you weren't scum, then (before these recent posts) I'd probably pair Vector and... eduren? ToonyMan? I simply have no idea. However, I'll explain post my thinkings:
What if we're all being really stupid about this?
Let's think about this logically: There are two teams of us arguing over who's guilty.
dakarian/webadict vs. Vector/Jim Groovester
Each team thinks one or both of the others is scum. We each call for the lynching of the other. Now, let's assume Vector loses.
"Vector is lynched. Vector is town!"
I say a major, "Oh crap." I proceed to wish scum kills me in order to save the game. However, something like this happens:
"Jim Groovester is found dead. Jim Groovester is town!"
Either dakarian or I are lynched and we lose the game, simply because of one key element:
There are three teams.
We forgot ToonyMan/eduren/Free Beer. They are the bystanders, watching us kill each other, especially given the lack of effort on ToonyMan's or eduren's part. Free Beer certainly has been asking questions...
Maybe I'm being crazy, but I thought I had nailed Vector as scum... But, then I read this:
For now, Im convinced. Vector
Followed by this:
Sigh... Jim, he has a point. Can you explain why your vote stays on Web?
Because I will not lend credibility to dakarian's plan by voting for him. He directly challenged me, and I refused. So he challenged me even more, and I still refused. So I got the feeling that this brilliant plan of his requires my vote to lend it legitimacy. So I refused.
What else would you like? His gamble is idiotic. He's trying to portray himself as some sort of martyr, as a savior to the town, but he's under absolutely zero threat to be lynched today. He's trying to define the terms of the discussion as a binary choice between either Vector or himself, and he broke those terms by voting for me. His whole gamble seems like a knee-jerk reaction to me detailing webadict and dakarian's suspect relationship.
webadict and dakarian are working together. webadict is the smart one, and dakarian will continue to make mistakes. So my vote stays on webadict. Since he's better at concealing his guilt, he's the more dangerous scum. dakarian, on the other hand, will likely make several more mistakes, and nobody will forget this brilliant plan of his come tomorrow. He can be dealt with later.
He's not the only one that can make wild gambles...
I propose that we call his "bluff". According to him it won't matter if he is lynched so i propose that we do just that. The only reason you haven't jumped on it is because it is not certain that you will get the necessary votes.
If You vote for dakarian, then i will do likewise. (I assume that Vector will do so also).
If dakarian is scum, as you claim, then this offer will be impossible to turn down.
And I saw several other posts made by Vector that said that maybe I should reconsider. I'm afraid I am sorry for pressuring you so much. You did seem very scummy at the time and I thought about it and then I realized: eduren was posting just fine when we pressured him, but suddenly disregards everything now that the heat's off. He is EXPLICITLY saying he's going to follow someone. That's dumb and suddenly counterproductive.
I'm afraid I'm not willing to gamble your lives. I'm not willing to gamble anyone's life but my own. I can't say that we lynch Jim and if he's town we lynch dakarian. Because that's how games end up losing very fast. Townies thinking the other is scum and getting everyone to lynch one and then the other.
No, I'm not doing that. I can't even vote Vector any longer, because I know we'll be going after one of us: me, dakarian, or Jim Groovester, and losing hardcore.
So, let's turn our attention to eduren, ToonyMan, or Free Beer for a second. Does anyone agree to that?
I'll quote Mr.Person for my apology Vector:
You're overanalyzing, webadict.
Unvote.
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I still believe Jim to be acting scummier than you and plan to re-evaluate my vote when Jim explains himself further. As for his partner, I would place it as either you or Toonyman.
Ill have to ask you for a summary of them other than "he's not answering questions". While yes his evasiveness is worrying, it may just be a dismissive and condescending attitude that is causing it.
All right, fair enough. Another question, sorry.
What makes you think Jim is working with ToonyMan, other than that you suspect them both? Have you seen any signs of them working together?
I have not seen signs of them working together. I understand that that makes my case really weak and that is why I have yet to condemn either of them.
And as for your summary, here it is:
1. Webadict is going for easy lynches.
2. If he were town, you'd think he would have died on the first night. He may be the natural person for doctor protection, but that assumes that doctors exist.
3. He doesn't provide information to others, and continually runs away from questions he doesn't like.
4. I caught him lying.
5. He directed the newbies to start a lurker hunt (in a pedagogical tone), and then proceeded to attack them for it--even though he signed up to lead us through the first day. I personally thought that meant we were supposed to listen to him and take his instruction. Apparently not.
1. Fair enough. Org turned out to be an easy lynch, and I guess you might have seemed to be just as easy. Then when you defended yourself and others gave resistance he has backed down.
2. Why would he be a NK target? Because of his experience?
3. Ill give you that, he has been sketchy under questioning. So Webadict, why so reluctant to work with us?
4. Can you explain? Quotes if you can spare them.
5. If I were to defend him i guess that I would say that was his plan. See who would follow him in order to blend in? But Im not defending him and would like to apologize for dismissing him.
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We forgot ToonyMan/eduren/Free Beer. They are the bystanders, watching us kill each other, especially given the lack of effort on ToonyMan's or eduren's part. Free Beer certainly has been asking questions...
Which of the three is most scummy?
Can one of them be working with someone from your "two teams"? If so, who seems likely?
You didn't really ask any of us questions, all you did was say "Look over here!"
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We forgot ToonyMan/eduren/Free Beer. They are the bystanders, watching us kill each other, especially given the lack of effort on ToonyMan's or eduren's part. Free Beer certainly has been asking questions...
Which of the three is most scummy?
Can one of them be working with someone from your "two teams"? If so, who seems likely?
You didn't really ask any of us questions, all you did was say "Look over here!"
Am I supposed to be asking lots of questions? I'm merely explaining a possible fallacy in our groupthink.
And you are indeed the most scummy. Hence why I quoted you. And yes, I suppose someone from those two teams could be working with one of them. I have no idea who's the most likely. It could, essentially, be anyone. Who do you think is most likely?
Let's ask some question then:
eduren, explain why you thought Vector was a good choice to lynch today?
If you thought he was a good lynch, then why were you willing to vote dakarian if Jim voted dakarian?
Doesn't that seem to be scummy?
Why is it that you contribute nothing to the conversation, except to say, "Hmm, that's interesting. Why this, this and this?"
Who do you think is scum?
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Woah. webadict, I think for certain you're scum now.
Unvote.
Vote webadict. You don't want to get lynched tomorrow because you know Vector is town.
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Woah. webadict, I think for certain you're scum now.
Unvote.
Vote webadict. You don't want to get lynched tomorrow because you know Vector is town.
So, have you decided to finally show up too, ToonyMan?
And yes, if I got lynched tomorrow because Vector was indeed town, we would, in fact, lose the game. I feel that two town lynches are bad. Do you agree, or do you think that my analysis is flawed in some way? Please, feel free to improve upon my thinking.
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YOU SCUM. :V
You didn't respond to what I said. You know that Vector is town, because you're mafia. If Vector comes up town then you would be lynched. The only problem is I'm not sure of your partner right now. But once I do. Town will win.
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eduren, explain why you thought Vector was a good choice to lynch today?
As I already explained, dakarians plea seemed reasonable. I already had suspicions about him and so I went with someone i suspected rather than dakarian.
If you thought he was a good lynch, then why were you willing to vote dakarian if Jim voted dakarian?
At that point i thought Jim to be the scummiest (still do) and thought that if we both called dakarian on his bluff then we might have a better standing tomorrow to take him down.
Why is it that you contribute nothing to the conversation, except to say, "Hmm, that's interesting. Why this, this and this?"
Im pretty sure that that contributes to conversation. I voice my opinion, ask a few followup questions and update people on my suspicions.
Who do you think is scum?
Jim and Toony OR Jim and Vector.
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eduren, explain why you thought Vector was a good choice to lynch today?
As I already explained, dakarians plea seemed reasonable. I already had suspicions about him and so I went with someone i suspected rather than dakarian.
If you thought he was a good lynch, then why were you willing to vote dakarian if Jim voted dakarian?
At that point i thought Jim to be the scummiest (still do) and thought that if we both called dakarian on his bluff then we might have a better standing tomorrow to take him down.
Wait, what? dakarian's plea was OK when Vector was the target, but when dakarian decided to first target Jim, the person you feel to be most scummy, the plea is suddenly not OK?
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eduren, explain why you thought Vector was a good choice to lynch today?
As I already explained, dakarians plea seemed reasonable. I already had suspicions about him and so I went with someone i suspected rather than dakarian.
If you thought he was a good lynch, then why were you willing to vote dakarian if Jim voted dakarian?
At that point i thought Jim to be the scummiest (still do) and thought that if we both called dakarian on his bluff then we might have a better standing tomorrow to take him down.
Why is it that you contribute nothing to the conversation, except to say, "Hmm, that's interesting. Why this, this and this?"
Im pretty sure that that contributes to conversation. I voice my opinion, ask a few followup questions and update people on my suspicions.
Who do you think is scum?
Jim and Toony OR Jim and Vector.
None of what you just said added up. Free Beer has beaten me to the punch, but you're saying that it MIGHT be Vector, but you'll gladly lynch dakarian so that Jim dies tomorrow, instead of voting Jim today and saving a townie?
Also, you said we instead of town. We who? I hope you're not referring to anyone out here, because nobody is a we in this game. There is simply a town and a mafia. You are part of one, but you do not speak for either.
YOU SCUM. :V
You didn't respond to what I said. You know that Vector is town, because you're mafia. If Vector comes up town then you would be lynched. The only problem is I'm not sure of your partner right now. But once I do. Town will win.
Really? Once you find my partner? Are you for real? I can give you two situations. I'll give you a hint, though, that the first one is correct and the second one is hypothetical.
One) I'm town, and don't have a partner. Anybody you could possibly find for my "partner" is indeed not my partner.
Now, here's your thinking of situation two, which is very much false:
Two) If I were scum, would I really betray my partner like that? Hence, wouldn't I want you to think someone else was my partner other than who actually was my partner? I think not. By that reasoning, wouldn't my partner be... (Drum roll, please): Vector, the person I've been trying to lynch since Day 1, including giving my analysis of the A-G situation.
And, I did answer your question. I THINK that Vector is town because he gave rather compelling arguments, which I thought were heartfelt and true. Perhaps I was a little over-reactive to him alone, since I felt very adamant about his guilt.
Oh, and ToonyMan: If I were mafia, who do you think would be my partner?
Also, where were you before this whole conversation, and why weren't you helping like you usually do?
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webadict, I find that your appeal and proposal is fairly convincing, but I need to do my due diligence just to be sure.
You're starting a lurker hunt with this proposal. It could be said that this is a mafia ploy on your part to divert suspicion towards the least active players. What are your thoughts on this?
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webadict, I find that your appeal and proposal is fairly convincing, but I need to do my due diligence just to be sure.
You're starting a lurker hunt with this proposal. It could be said that this is a mafia ploy on your part to divert suspicion towards the least active players. What are your thoughts on this?
Honestly, it sounds like something I might consider as mafia. But, I just had a feeling I was horribly wrong and that we'd lose if we continued the way we were.
I realize it looks bad, but I suppose that I was safe the way I was, was I not? I mean, would anyone try to lynch me after all that? No, you two would simply lynch each other and I win. I can keep trying to tell everyone Vector is scum, while their off lynching you and dakarian. I could easily keep that going.
I thought some better perspective would be better, and I feel like eduren might be scum (Which also looks bad for me, after I had previously stated I thought he was town with a fakewagon on him.)
And if I were mafia and I caught a scum, I'd also be stupid, because why would I lynch my own teammate? I'd have him lynch me! I'm obviously suspicious, and it would help their credibility.
I guess I had a bad feeling about what I was doing and so I figured I'd explore alternative explanations. There simply had to be a better way to explain than two people vs. two people; wow we caught our scum!
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Alright, that's basically what I was looking for. I already thought up a few reasons for why you wouldn't be scum, and you mostly addressed them directly.
Unvote webadict. All my accusations and evidence are still lingering up in my head, but your recent actions have gone a long way towards satisfying them. You'll have to forgive me if I hold onto my vanishing doubts for a little while longer.
Moving on:
eduren, ToonyMan, and Free Beer have pretty much skated by through all of today while we all beat the hell out of each other. During Day 1, both eduren and ToonyMan faced scrutiny for being scum, and they even voted for each other at the end of Day 1. However, Free Beer has had pretty much a free ride.
Free Beer, I won't answer your suspicions, not yet anyway, because I've already done that a bazillion times today from pretty much everybody. You can answer mine, instead. Somebody could accuse you of lurking, and they would be right. You only pop in to ask questions, you don't interject into any discussions unless somebody asks you, and the only other time you participate is to deliver an accusation.
Is there any particular reason why you're trying to stay out of the fray?
Goodness gracious, I can't believe nobody asked this sooner. Free Beer, you voted for BloodBeard at the end of Day 1, and he shows up dead at the beginning of Day 2. What's behind that?
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First off.. I guess this means the end of people looking at me as scum. There we go then.
Sidenote: the idea is still on the table.
However, something is VERY wrong here and I'm not liking it. Not liking it at all.
A question, Web: Why DO you feel that Jim is town? You're among the first to believe that you should trust no one automatically. Jim's been acting VERY anti-town for a good while now and had a horrible excuse for not accepting my bet (You're scum, but I STILL won't vote for you!) You didn't even QUESTION it. You've now accused everyone BUT Jim. Why? Up to now, he's the ONLY one to have failed my attacks against him, and I threw some GOOD ones against Vector and Eduren.
Now that I don't have to keep getting the "I believe YOU are scum, not him" thrown at my face (otherwise, you would've just 'called the bluff' and voted for me).. WHY is Jim innocent?
I haven't forgotten the others. No one, to my eyes, is truly confirmed town yet: just less or more suspect. However, just reminding me of them and seeing Jim try to wiggle out of my attacks to go after someone else is NOT enough to make him look good all of a sudden.
So, you can forget my gamble, or keep it in play.. but if you want me to hedge away from killing Jim you're going to need a GOOD reason why you keep defending him. You don't want a double town lynch. I don't either: so much so that I'm willing to kill myself to avoid it.
Right now, you're telling me to skip over who I wholeheartedly believe is scum to take a gamble even BIGGER than what I propose.
No. That's not enough.
I'm listening to your statements Web, but you actually have a harder job than the others now. You not only have to defend Jim, who can't defend himself, but do so in a way that doesn't make you look bad.
For now. Vote stays on Jim. As for my request to everyone, it says: If you don't plan on voting me, then get Jim. I'll add this: Vote jim or explain why Jim is acting like the biggest scum in all of Mafia.
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Unofficial whiteboard:
Jim Groovester: dakarian, Free Beer
Vector: eduren,
webadict: Vector, ToonyMan
A theory. If the bet continued, I would die, then Jim would die. If Jim flipped town, Web, who is the only one really defending him, would be heavily suspect since Vector defended himself so well.
The Mafia would LOVE to see me bomb a townie on myself. The mafia, however, would HATE if I took a mafiamate with me, especially when the partner already has some suspicion on them... especially if the mafia was planning to bus the OTHER person and 'clear' the first one.
Aka:
Jim Busses Web, using Vector as 'townie bait'. Web dies mafia. Jim is a hero. Jim then aims to kill another, perhaps me, perhaps someone else.
However, Jim Busses web, putting lots of suspicion on him. I derail it and attack Jim. Web and Jim jump me, casting me in suspicion and try to tempt me towards Vector rather than Jim. Vector would flip town, I would be lynched next and that's game over.
HOWEVER, A helpful post causes me to aim back at jim and put him in an unwinnable situation. Jim CAN'T kill me since that would kill him when it was Web that was meant to die. Vector defends himself, removing suspicion from himself. All that's left is Jim and Web. They try to discredit me, but I prove insane enough to go with it. They try to make excuses but the others call them out on it.
So they try to derail. OH LOOK, MORE PEOPLE. LOOK AT THEM!!!
I was thinking while I was working on my job (you guys notice I'm always gone between 1pm-2am EST?)..the only way to stop what I did is to 1. stop attacking me and/or 2. make someone else suspect. Mafia CAN go and bus but only if everyone has remained hidden. If both foes are in the spotlight, it's WAY too risky.
That isn't my direct statemnet of how I think it happened. It's just an idea on HOW a web/jim alliance would work.
So Web.. why IS Jim oh so innocent? You already know I HATE unexplained defending: that's HOW Jim got into this mess. You're making too many slips. We're also almost out of time and tied votes = no lynch which we can't accept..
Unvote Vote Web
Note, while everything said earlier does make you look bad, my vote is due to your defense of Jim. Don't stray to other topics, like how other people look bad or how "I" look bad, or whatever. You're defending the person I most wish to die.
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Curses the lack of editing.
"A theory. If the bet continued, I would die, then Jim would die. If Jim flipped town, Web, who is the only one really defending him, would be heavily suspect since Vector defended himself so well."
I meant if Jim flipped Mafia. Wouldn't make sense otherwise :P.
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dakarian, if I were scum, why didn't I go after Vector today? At any time after webadict and Free Beer voted for him, he was the easy lynch, and as we all know from webadict, scum love the easy lynch. Instead, I went after webadict, who could be considered the most difficult target to go after because of his experience and skill with the game. If you say, "Because Vector is your partner," you would have to suspect Vector again of being mafia, by relation to me, and you already cleared him. I only needed to post a detailed analysis of Vector's behavior listing why I thought he was scum, and then I could have voted with him along with webadict and Free Beer.
That's all it would've took to go after the easy lynch. What gives?
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All right... first response to the stuff that's happened while I was away.
Vector, Free Beer, what do you think of my evidence on dakarian and webadict's suspect relationship? It looked like it may have been lost in the middle of dakarian's reckless gamble.
To be honest, I can't find very much on this... in fact, you've said very little. What you've mostly said is that dakarian is following web and listening to his ideas. What I think you've missed is that dakarian picks two or three people he considers suspicious, throws himself at them bodily, and seems to implicitly trust everyone else. When he suspected eduren (following our lead), he defended the four people eduren attacked. He has a very rigid mentality, which flips after a certain amount of proof has been supplied.
My problem is that I'm too passive. Dakarian's problem is that he trusts too much. I don't think he's scum; I think he's town, with a bad habit for flamboyancy and even arrogance. Previously, he trusted webadict. Now he doesn't, so he's following the people he trusts (ToonyMan and myself, apparently) to wheel about and turn on webadict again.
If you have more evidence than "dakarian is a copier and is trying/tried to kill both of us," however, I would be more than happy to take a look at it.
What do you think, dakarian? Have I judged you correctly?
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1. Fair enough. Org turned out to be an easy lynch, and I guess you might have seemed to be just as easy. Then when you defended yourself and others gave resistance he has backed down.
2. Why would he be a NK target? Because of his experience?
3. Ill give you that, he has been sketchy under questioning. So Webadict, why so reluctant to work with us?
4. Can you explain? Quotes if you can spare them.
5. If I were to defend him i guess that I would say that was his plan. See who would follow him in order to blend in? But Im not defending him and would like to apologize for dismissing him.
2. Webadict would be an NK target because of his experience, and also because he implicitly claimed that he was the cop: that is, he said he would have absolute proof on me on the dawn of day two, which implies that he was going to check me over during the night.
4. Here are the relevant quotes:
FoS Jim Groovester, Vector, dakarian, and webadict for voting Org. You basically bandwagoned the poor fellow. Although I admit he wasn't helping us much.
[Vector] says that everyone that lynched Org is suspicious and there was no reason to, despite the fact he did [...] !
He's saying I made ToonyMan's statement, essentially.
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eduren, explain why you thought Vector was a good choice to lynch today?
As I already explained, dakarians plea seemed reasonable. I already had suspicions about him and so I went with someone i suspected rather than dakarian.
I actually cannot believe that you said this. I thought you were foolish before, but this takes both the cake and the entire fishing rod. Webadict and dakarian have already explained why this is dumb, so I'll let their words stand rather than repeat them. However, I don't understand why you didn't take the standard approach: why not convince the rest of us to off Jim first? We all know you're capable of your own walls of text--in your own defense, anyway.
Worse, it seems that you're getting credit for trying "hard lynches" by letting everyone else soften up the potential scum while you lurk about and occasionally vote. Please explain this behavior.
Because this seems like an unimaginably stupid and scummy thing to say, I'm going to give you space to backpedal and rethink your words before I vote you. Be warned: I think you've just signed your own death warrant, especially if you don't reply in a timely manner.
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4. I am answering all questions as I am aware of them, except those I have explicitly stated not answering, for reasons either publicly declared or privately held and later publicly declared. If I miss some of them, it is because I tend to skip over posts while I read sometimes.
Fair enough. I can certainly believe that, and in the future I'll try to extract the questions from my walls of text so you won't get nailed for something you didn't see.
So, let's turn our attention to eduren, ToonyMan, or Free Beer for a second. Does anyone agree to that?
I'll go with this for now, as well. Your logical analysis seems very astute.
I'll quote Mr.Person for my apology Vector:
You're overanalyzing, webadict.
Unvote.
Thank you, and apology accepted. For now, unvote. Things have gotten hideously confusing, and it seems like it's time to back off and get our heads together.
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"Easy Lynch" is what we use to call out scum that aren't good at being scum. Poor scum go for the 'easy' then wonder why the town jumps them. It's good to watch for, but saying you aren't doing it isn't enough to defend yourself. Let's face it, most of us are newbies to the forum but NOT newbies to the game.
Btw, you're about a few pages old in your discussion. I started pulling back on Vector around the time I started voting on you. By then, the only thing I had on him was that you and him were linked. Although he didn't mean it, he helped break that by showing me that other, stronger links exist.
"I" am saying that you are BUSSING Web, and had been bussing him since day 1. You bus him, you hide under 'hero' status. Web makes sure he focuses on Vector and NOT you so that if we trust Web, we kill Vector, Vect flips town, we kill Web, you become a hero. If we don't trust web, we kill him, you're still a hero.
Why Web? I helped with that with my "I'm watching you!" bit. Then he goes and does a Burden of Proof, making me jump him. He doesn't answer the questions well so that we DO suspect him.
Vector is your barganing chip. He's town, accused by 'the pro' and heavily defended by 'the newbie'. Any attempt to go near you guys ends up with either siding with you against web or siding with web against Vector. I start on Vector, and BOTH OF YOU make me look bad. Funny that. If I push harder and kill Vector, he flips town, I die. I push on you and Web goes all out to tempt me with Vector or else risk my death. Note, had I died that way, Web would die..but you go free.
@ Vector.. remove the 'trust' and you got my style. I pick ONE person, perhaps two I worry about, then go ALL OUT on them. I keep it up until they crack. If things work right: Townies crack by gut spilling and explaining what they do. Mafia crack by either making me look scum or trying to distract me.
I don't trust you, Vector. I just have no evidence to use to lynch you. Same with most everyone else. I had my evidence: you killed it off. Now I have none. Going after you with no evidence makes NO sense so I back off on you. However has the most evidence gets attacked. I attack till they kill my evidence, then I move on. If you don't provide that evidence, I attack till you die. THat's how I work. Also note, this mafia turned out very....unique. I wouldn't be so bold if things didn't go the way they did.
Fake edit: At this point, I'm content with removing Web or Jim. I just don't want a tie or some random person lynched. Thus, Unvote Vote Jim.
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To update: Jim I want for many reasons, including that poor excuse for accepting the bet, being hyper defensive of others, failing to explain himself well enough, and generally showing off more scumminess than anyone else.
Web, I am after so long as I believe him linked with Jim. Web has been assaulted badly by Jim and yet Jim is the only one he defends when someone goes after him.
Mix in the theory that's crazy enough to be true and thus why I aim at both of them currently. Since I don't want a tie, my vote is currently on Jim.
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For now. Vote stays on Jim. As for my request to everyone, it says: If you don't plan on voting me, then get Jim. I'll add this: Vote jim or explain why Jim is acting like the biggest scum in all of Mafia.
Jim has defended himself, and I don't particularly care to defend him right now. I can't explain his actions. What I can say is that webadict has made undeniable slips (most of which I am forgiving at this point) and eduren is acting fantastically scummy. At the moment, I don't actually think Jim is that bad. Not everyone who follows is scum, as I have shown.
A theory. If the bet continued, I would die, then Jim would die. If Jim flipped town, Web, who is the only one really defending him, would be heavily suspect since Vector defended himself so well.
You know, they say that townies always take gambles. Some gambles are too risky to take even for town, and I still think it's not really worth taking this unless it's a no-lynch vs. suspected townie lynch scenario. We've still got time, so let's look around a little. Sure, maybe Jim will pop up incredibly suspicious--but we shouldn't do anything dumb just because we're running out of time. There will still be time to lynch Jim in nine hours, if everyone decides that's the best course of action.
Then, a few questions.
1. If you don't trust, then why on earth do you take cues from other players?
2. In the post just before your most recent one, who are you talking to?
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Also, Mod: Would you mind putting up the whiteboard when you have a chance? This is getting pretty confusing.
Additionally, if you end up being unable to get anyone to replace me by the end of Tuesday, I was hoping we could work something out so I could stay in and come back (provided I am not lynched or killed by the mafia) on day 4 (provided, again, that we do not lose). I will be gone for all of day three, but will return at some point on Saturday.
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Then, a few questions.
1. If you don't trust, then why on earth do you take cues from other players?
2. In the post just before your most recent one, who are you talking to?
1. Even the baby-eating bum biting his foot in the middle of the interstate can have a good idea. Just because I can't trust you're 100% town doesn't mean that I have to treat you as scum. Even when I thought you were scum, I STILL listened to you talk about Web. I am listening to Jim and Web now, and half ready to hear something that will make me stop gunning for them. Perhaps I missed part of Jim's post, but he hasn't dispelled much of the suspicion I had of him. Many, when faced with my Bet, said "A townie kill isn't worth it". Even Web suggested as much.
Jim? "You're scum but I won't be 'baited' into voting for you".
WTF does THAT mean!?
Web, I guess, hasn't FAILED my attack yet since he's yet to post. Jim, though.. I can't even think of a REASON why a townie would act that way... and neither can you or anyone else. What's left? He's "Too scummy?" Toonyman is our resident "very odd acting person" and even he could at least make a proper vote. Perhaps you are right on Web and that I should give him more time.
Jim's had plenty of time in my eyes. You said as much: I pull away when I have enough proof to my accusations. "Someone else looks odd" just makes me think "Jim might be with someone else and not Web".
One good thing.. going after Jim means I can relax a bit and use Day 3 to look into Web and this new thing with Eduren.
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I actually cannot believe that you said this. I thought you were foolish before, but this takes both the cake and the entire fishing rod. Webadict and dakarian have already explained why this is dumb, so I'll let their words stand rather than repeat them. However, I don't understand why you didn't take the standard approach: why not convince the rest of us to off Jim first? We all know you're capable of your own walls of text--in your own defense, anyway.
You kidding? The last time I actively pursued someone I thought scum, I lost all credibility! To be honest I wasn't reading as closely as I should've. I ended up going with the flow and believing the mafia pros!
Once again the only thing Im guilty of is bad townsmanship!
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Mix in the theory that's crazy enough to be true and thus why I aim at both of them currently. Since I don't want a tie, my vote is currently on Jim.
That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Things crazy enough to just might work only exist in movie land.
Anyways, your post doesn't make any sense. If I am scum, I've been scum the whole game. My behavior is not consistent with being scum, especially with whom you've laid out to be my partner.
If my, and implicitly webadict's, plan were for me to go after webadict so that I would look innocent, why didn't I accuse him on Day 1? I had several opportunities to do so. One was when webadict challenged me. Another was when I asked him about his certainty on Vector and Org. Another was when you accused him. Why did I wait until Day 2?
Why did I kill BloodBeard during the night when he was suspicious of me? Why would I want to naturally lead the investigation in my direction?
Why did I spend all that time and effort going after webadict, and why did webadict spend all that time going after me when we were working together? Why did we both insult each other and accuse each other of fallacious logic? Why did we treat each other like such enemies if we were partners?
What good is it for me to go after my partner like that anyway? What if I'm successful in my attacks? There's strength in numbers, even for Mafia. Provided everything works perfectly for me, having a partner lets me end the game at the beginning of Day 4, while being by myself I can only win at the end of Day 4. That's a long stretch of the game where I could slip up. No, too dangerous, by far. Better to have a partner, and do what I can to keep him around.
No, your suspicions are incorrect, because the plan you accuse me of having is stupid. My behavior is inconsistent with being mafia.
Let's face it, most of us are newbies to the forum but NOT newbies to the game.
This is the first time I've ever played a game of mafia. Surprised?
Further, I've explained my reasons for refusing your challenge. I explained it to you when you first challenged me, and I explained it to eduren when he asked: I refused to lend credence to your idiotic gamble by following it. It's like the kid on the playground trying to get you to punch him so that the teacher will see you do it, and you'll get punished. Better to outright refuse, and maybe he'll punch you while everybody's watching. And you did. You accused me when it was supposed to be a false dichotomy between you and Vector. Yet somehow, in a twist of fate, I'm in the wrong for not accusing you, and you're in the right for accusing me.
Besides, when you challenged me, webadict was a bigger threat. Now that webadict has been adequately cleared in my mind, eduren is behaving suspiciously. Three people have pointed it, one of whom suspected me and still may, one of whom accuses me now.
You... you're stupid, but I think you're town, just like Org. It's still suspicious of you, but only an arrogant braggart with a messiah complex would start such a stupid gamble.
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As best as I can tell, this is the white board:
Jim Groovester: Free Beer, dakarian
Vector: eduren
webadict: ToonyMan
webadict, Vector, and I have rescinded our votes against each other. ToonyMan has changed his vote wildly, from Vector to dakarian to webadict. Free Beer changed his vote from Vector to me. dakarian is changing his vote wildly as well, from Vector to me to webadict and then back to me.
So that's where everybody stands.
I can't decide on who to vote. I suppose I'll have to wake up in time and decide.
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Crap, forgot i was still voting. Unvote. Ill decide in the morning.
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Seeing that dakarian is trying to separate himself from webadict now, I'm guessing dakarian is the other scum. Don't lynch Jim. :V Lynch webadict and then dakarian.
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Don't you DARE lynch Web over me. If you think I'm scum, lynch me FIRST. If you can't lynch me now, then don't bother later.
The only reason why you would NOT lynch me first is if you feel that I'm town THAT strongly. If you believe that I'm scum then kill me off. Seeing as I've derailed this thread over and over, even if my Bet didn't exist, "I" would be the most dangerous scum. If I'm not lynched now and a townie dies today, I'll easily mark you as "see? That person's mafia after all! They KNEW not to hit me now because it would prove me right. Now they want the final town lynch".
If we kill a scum, then, and ONLY then, am I willing to be offed.. it would still confirm me and give the town time to save themselves later. I just refuse to be the second town lynch.
Btw, a good reason why I keep on Jim/Web is because just about every other argument has always been Me/Someoneelse. It's also silly that, no matter what, I seem to be the one to kill 'afterwards'.
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Free Beer, I won't answer your suspicions, not yet anyway, because I've already done that a bazillion times today from pretty much everybody. You can answer mine, instead. Somebody could accuse you of lurking, and they would be right. You only pop in to ask questions, you don't interject into any discussions unless somebody asks you, and the only other time you participate is to deliver an accusation.
Is there any particular reason why you're trying to stay out of the fray?
Goodness gracious, I can't believe nobody asked this sooner. Free Beer, you voted for BloodBeard at the end of Day 1, and he shows up dead at the beginning of Day 2. What's behind that?
Since when was I lurking? Refer to my interrogation of Vector. I was trying to determine if he was scum and trying to get him to out his parter. That much should be obvious from the content of my posts with my having to explain it. It was certainly more effective than what you were doing with webadict.
As for BloodBeard, as I explained previously, I voted him because I thought we was scum. Refer to my original post accusing him for why I thought so.
Unless and until you explain your behavior, and answer my suspicions of you, my vote will stay on you. The longer you delay, the worse you're going to look. And believe me when I say that you don't look like town right now.
Your reasoning for not voting dakarian is void, since you tried to start a bandwagon on him anyway. If you look at webadict's immediate reaction to eduren at that start of Day Two, you'll see a motive for you killing BloodBeard: it would not raise suspicion of you, but would rather clear you. Incidentally, the only other person aside from BloodBeard who suspected you at the time was webadict, and he's not dead, despite him being a better target if he were town.
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Fine, have it your way.
-You marked Org for death even from the beginning of Day One. You claimed Org was lurking at the beginning, but kept your vote on him anyway when you noticed he still posted. You occasionally got sidetracked with other lurkers, but you still came back to Org.
I explained why I voted for Org to dakarian. I voted him to get him to talk. He proved uncooperative and defiant. I retained my voted. webadict talked about Org's tell. I was convinced. As I said to dakarian, I can't defend my vote beyond my original reasoning.
-You were very jumpy during Day One. You asked that I clarify the context of a post that was addressed to BloodBeard. Why? Obviously you must have thought it was addressed to you. Paranoid about being suspected, are you?
I was legitimately confused about whom you were referring to. I figured it was BloodBeard, since you quoted him, but you posted after dakarian, and referred to 'you' without clarifying. It's important to get people's suspicions straight.
-You defended Vector on multiple occasions. Defending other people does not help the town. If someone is being accused or questioned, the intent is to determine that person's guilt. If someone were interested in your guilt, they'd question you instead.
That's crap. If I can defend somebody when I think they're town, I do it successfully, and they later prove to be town, I saved the town from an unnecessary lynch. Ta da! I helped the town.
If I defend somebody, it's because I think the arguments don't stack up against them. I defended ToonyMan, because I thought his behavior was in line with the way he normally acts, and he seemed genuinely frustrated that people were going to lynch him. I defended Vector, because I thought webadict's accusations were far overblown, and he gave me no reason to suspect him. I was going to defend eduren from Vector's suspicion of a webadict/eduren pair, but then eduren started to act suspiciously again.
-As previously noted, I suspect webadict heavily. His above described suspect behavior regarding you, combined with the obvious lack of relationship between Vector and webadict, leads me to believe you are probably webadict's partner in scum.
-On the off-chance that Vector, my other main suspect, is scum, the strong connection between the two of you leads me to believe that you would also be his partner in scum.
I seem to be two people at once with you, but either way, I'm scum, huh? I can't defend myself if you're willing to believe all possibilities of my guilt at the same time.
If my campaign against webadict was ineffectual, then that means that I must suck at argumentation, rather than some scheme to only give webadict a decent, not token, amount of suspicion. I truly meant everything I said about him, and I can safely say that even as my suspicions about him begin vanishing.
Any attempts by webadict or Vector to defend me, or them just stating their reduced suspicions, were completely unsolicited by me, much in the same way me defending Vector or stating my reduced suspicions about webadict were unsolicited by them.
-dakarian is willing to risk the fate of the entire game on your scumminess. Something has to be up with that. I'd expect a scum ploy like this if it were lynch or lose, but we've still got at least one, probably two more days left.
And he's risking it foolishly. I think you're giving his gamble more credit than it deserves.
I'm not naive enough to believe that if I were to pull some crazy gamble, that you'd be willing to believe me. But that's your suggestion, anyway, that there's truth in whatever somebody's gamble is, if he's willing to gamble something big with it, despite how idiotic the gamble may be.
dakarian can choose to vote for me without deciding to drag the rest of the town with him or force it into a false dichotomy. I think it's stupid for him to try to do so, and very suspicious on its own.
-You're trying to organize a bandwagon on dakarian without actually taking the risk of voting for him. It's been repeated numerous times in this game: caution is a scum tell.
eduren proposed he and I call dakarian's bluff. It turns out he was trying to lure me out, or something. eduren's reasoning isn't very clear on this issue.
But I fell for it. The only way to call dakarian's bluff was to get a guaranteed lynch on him, since he was and currently is within no danger to be lynched. Then maybe he would start changing his tune once the votes started piling on him, or he would keep up his spiel. If the former, a scum tell, if the latter, a town tell.
So yes, I called for other people to help me and eduren call his bluff. If there weren't enough people, then the whole exercise would be a wasted effort, and we might as well not even bother trying.
Did I answer your suspicions?
Now, more grilling.
If I accuse you of lurking it's because you seem uninvolved most of the time. You only pop in to ask questions about other people, and you only express your opinions when asked. You never volunteer them on your own. That's caution, and as we all know, caution is a scum tell. If you were interested in the discussion as opposed to the final lynch, you'd be somewhat more willing to give your opinions about what's going on, I think. However, giving people your opinions can lead people to suspecting you, after all, so you hold them tightly to your chest.
The only person that you've questioned that doesn't meet this pattern is ToonyMan. Instead you gave him the benefit of the doubt, and you even cleared him. The selective nature of this is suspect.
Your behavior today constitutes bandwagoning. You voted for Vector after webadict did. Once suspicion on him began winding down, you voted for me. You don't seem to take initiative and accuse people on your own, only after somebody else does. Again, caution.
But in Day 1, you accused BloodBeard. I looked over your posts, and your accusations seemed pretty trumped up, especially for the kinds of activity that went on during Day 1. Then, during the night, BloodBeard was killed, and you voted for him. I guess you decided to finish the job, then, figuring correctly that BloodBeard's suspicions were far more likely to be discussed than BloodBeard's accusers.
Free Beer, you're the scum. Am I certain of it? I'm hardly certain of anything anymore. But you've skated by completely without suspicion, for mostly suspicious reasons, and it's time somebody start grilling you.
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Sigh... Jim, he has a point. Can you explain why your vote stays on Web?
Because I will not lend credibility to dakarian's plan by voting for him. He directly challenged me, and I refused. So he challenged me even more, and I still refused. So I got the feeling that this brilliant plan of his requires my vote to lend it legitimacy. So I refused.
What else would you like? His gamble is idiotic. He's trying to portray himself as some sort of martyr, as a savior to the town, but he's under absolutely zero threat to be lynched today. He's trying to define the terms of the discussion as a binary choice between either Vector or himself, and he broke those terms by voting for me. His whole gamble seems like a knee-jerk reaction to me detailing webadict and dakarian's suspect relationship.
webadict and dakarian are working together. webadict is the smart one, and dakarian will continue to make mistakes. So my vote stays on webadict. Since he's better at concealing his guilt, he's the more dangerous scum. dakarian, on the other hand, will likely make several more mistakes, and nobody will forget this brilliant plan of his come tomorrow. He can be dealt with later.
He's not the only one that can make wild gambles...
I propose that we call his "bluff". According to him it won't matter if he is lynched so i propose that we do just that. The only reason you haven't jumped on it is because it is not certain that you will get the necessary votes.
If You vote for dakarian, then i will do likewise. (I assume that Vector will do so also).
If dakarian is scum, as you claim, then this offer will be impossible to turn down.
After you agreed, Toonyman voted for me. If you voted then, Eduren would join you. That would've been three. At that point, I would have the most votes on me.
What the Whiteboard would be
Jim Groovester: dakarian
Vector: Free Beer, webadict
webadict: Vector
Dakarian: ToonyMan, Jim Groovester, eduren,
Unless Free beer, web (who is defending you), and vector (who also defends you) dogpiled you, I would be dead.
You don't need 4 people to lynch. You need most votes when the day is over.
I don't like that you keep swearing that I'm scum enough to be lynched...tomorrow. If I died scum, it would mark you credible, destroy all of my alligations (which are the biggest thing blocking you at the moment), and be more than enough to finish off web. "I" am accusing Web.
You scream bluff, yet make every excuse in the book to avoid voting for me. Now that Toony's off of me and everyone has their own suspicions again, you can safely keep saying I'm bluffing and leave it at that.
I keep saying: If I'm scum, vote for me. If I'm town, stop criminalising me. Vector and Web chose the latter. Toony, the former till he got distracted by Web. You're voting like I'm town but talking like I'm scum. That's confusing and waffling. Confusion is very scummy.
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Realized the "I am accuse web" is rather random. By that I mean this:
I am accusing web, along with you. If web dies scum, it'll still leave the both of us in this mess. Yes, you COULD kill a scum THEN try my Bet. I'm not sure you're THAT sure of web's guilt to risk that though. The easier solution to test your theory is me first, THEN web.
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I thought I said I thought you were town while I was in the middle of insulting you?
You... you're stupid, but I think you're town, just like Org. It's still suspicious of you, but only an arrogant braggart with a messiah complex would start such a stupid gamble.
That hasn't changed during my accusation of Free Beer.
And I shouldn't be insulting. I can answer your suspicions without being a jackass about them. But your persistence, and that you've basically said the exact same thing twenty times in a row, were angering me.
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I am going to be AFK for a little while (packing and getting the house ready), though hopefully I will be able to come back before the end of the voting.
If I am not able to, however, conditionally vote for whoever has the most votes. I'd like to make sure that there's at least a lynch.
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The Whiteboard
Free Beer: Jim Groovester
Jim Groovester: Free Beer, dakarian
webadict: ToonyMan
Vector, there is no conditional voting in this mafia, so you'll have to pick someone.
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I don't know about Meph but I DONT ALLOW conditional votes.
That's not mafia.
Why? in brief, it doesn't attach a responsability that a vote should have. Multiple conditioned votes can form paradoxes. You can't know when there's gonna be a hammer or what. The terms are ambiguous. Its unfair in deadline, etc, etc. I dont have much time. Bye.
EDIT: ninja'd by Meph. I'm glad.
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Apologies for the anger, first off.
It's not so bad to be a little rough. A major point of this game is to shake people like a tree until their emotions spill out. Once they lose their control, they'll better show their true colors.
Thus a big reason why I'm confrontational. I want to push my accuser until they break. I'll be honest, the whole "Doesn't matter what you say, you're dead" was less me being egotistical and more trying to panic you. :P
That said..the vote stays on you. I'm glad you've declared me town now. However, you did it after I said, and repeated, and repeated that it was the way others have protected themselves. That was NOT your argument when we started this merry-go-bomb. I'll be honest, had your 'insulting' post come first before everything else, I would've at least held back the Bet and turned to plain old WoTish grilling. Rather blah that you fling that out NOW of all things.
I have about one hour left before I go to work. I'll go back and read things out a bit (no time for a full scan though). Best I can give at this point.
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I explained why I voted for Org to dakarian. I voted him to get him to talk. He proved uncooperative and defiant. I retained my voted. webadict talked about Org's tell. I was convinced. As I said to dakarian, I can't defend my vote beyond my original reasoning.
Why not? We know Org is town now. Are you not willing to take responsibility for your prior actions? It would certainly be consistent with your behavior now.
I was legitimately confused about whom you were referring to. I figured it was BloodBeard, since you quoted him, but you posted after dakarian, and referred to 'you' without clarifying. It's important to get people's suspicions straight.
Then why did you bother to jump in? You would have no reason to do so unless you thought you were involved. If my post was unclear to one of the people I was addressing, they would have called me on it.
That's crap. If I can defend somebody when I think they're town, I do it successfully, and they later prove to be town, I saved the town from an unnecessary lynch. Ta da! I helped the town.
If I defend somebody, it's because I think the arguments don't stack up against them. I defended ToonyMan, because I thought his behavior was in line with the way he normally acts, and he seemed genuinely frustrated that people were going to lynch him. I defended Vector, because I thought webadict's accusations were far overblown, and he gave me no reason to suspect him. I was going to defend eduren from Vector's suspicion of a webadict/eduren pair, but then eduren started to act suspiciously again.
It's not crap, it's buddying (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Buddying_Up), which is another scum tell. You'll notice that buddying figured prominently in my accusation of BloodBeard as well.
I seem to be two people at once with you, but either way, I'm scum, huh? I can't defend myself if you're willing to believe all possibilities of my guilt at the same time.
If my campaign against webadict was ineffectual, then that means that I must suck at argumentation, rather than some scheme to only give webadict a decent, not token, amount of suspicion. I truly meant everything I said about him, and I can safely say that even as my suspicions about him begin vanishing.
Any attempts by webadict or Vector to defend me, or them just stating their reduced suspicions, were completely unsolicited by me, much in the same way me defending Vector or stating my reduced suspicions about webadict were unsolicited by them.
You're related to both webadict and Vector, at the same time, whether you like it or not. You aren't two different people. My logic is very simple:
If webadict is scum, I'm 60% sure you're the other scum.
If Vector is scum, I'm 90% sure you're the other scum.
If Vector is scum, I'm 90% sure webadict is not scum.
If webadict is scum, I'm 90% sure Vector is not scum.
All of the above can be discerned immediately from my questioning of Vector. The evidence is all there.
All of these together push you to the top of my suspect list.
Can you explain why webadict is defending you? Can you explain why he only came down on you lightly, while he came down on Vector hardcore? If you're both scum there is an obvious reason why.
Can you explain why you are defending Vector and he is accepting the defense? If you're both scum then there is an obvious reason why.
And he's risking it foolishly. I think you're giving his gamble more credit than it deserves.
I'm not naive enough to believe that if I were to pull some crazy gamble, that you'd be willing to believe me. But that's your suggestion, anyway, that there's truth in whatever somebody's gamble is, if he's willing to gamble something big with it, despite how idiotic the gamble may be.
dakarian can choose to vote for me without deciding to drag the rest of the town with him or force it into a false dichotomy. I think it's stupid for him to try to do so, and very suspicious on its own.
Yes, it's stupid. That's why I am not buying into the "lynch dakrian now to prove he's town!" plan. But he would have no reason to do it if he were scum, and if he were town then that means he has some reason for wanting you dead so badly.
eduren proposed he and I call dakarian's bluff. It turns out he was trying to lure me out, or something. eduren's reasoning isn't very clear on this issue.
But I fell for it. The only way to call dakarian's bluff was to get a guaranteed lynch on him, since he was and currently is within no danger to be lynched. Then maybe he would start changing his tune once the votes started piling on him, or he would keep up his spiel. If the former, a scum tell, if the latter, a town tell.
So yes, I called for other people to help me and eduren call his bluff. If there weren't enough people, then the whole exercise would be a wasted effort, and we might as well not even bother trying.
The only way to call dakarian if he is bluffing is to LYNCH HIM, not try to get everyone else to lynch him while you sit back safe in your little cubbyhole. Grow a pair already.
If I accuse you of lurking it's because you seem uninvolved most of the time. You only pop in to ask questions about other people, and you only express your opinions when asked. You never volunteer them on your own. That's caution, and as we all know, caution is a scum tell. If you were interested in the discussion as opposed to the final lynch, you'd be somewhat more willing to give your opinions about what's going on, I think. However, giving people your opinions can lead people to suspecting you, after all, so you hold them tightly to your chest.
The only person that you've questioned that doesn't meet this pattern is ToonyMan. Instead you gave him the benefit of the doubt, and you even cleared him. The selective nature of this is suspect.
I already explained why I am hesitant to give my opinions at the beginning of Day Two. It causes people to clam up and OMGUS me instead of continuing to explain themselves. I want people to explain themselves. As previously noted, I was giving my opinions on Day One.
Your behavior today constitutes bandwagoning. You voted for Vector after webadict did. Once suspicion on him began winding down, you voted for me. You don't seem to take initiative and accuse people on your own, only after somebody else does. Again, caution.
I was first on Vector, thank you very much. I was also first and only on BloodBeard, and first on ToonyMan.
At the time I left Vector to attack you, Vector had three people on him while you only had one. That's, like, the opposite of bandwagoning. And webadict jumped off Vector at approximately the same time that I did. Are you even paying attention?
But in Day 1, you accused BloodBeard. I looked over your posts, and your accusations seemed pretty trumped up, especially for the kinds of activity that went on during Day 1. Then, during the night, BloodBeard was killed, and you voted for him. I guess you decided to finish the job, then, figuring correctly that BloodBeard's suspicions were far more likely to be discussed than BloodBeard's accusers.
If I were scum and webadict were not scum, I'd kill webadict. His credibility was completely shot after he led the town on an Org lynch, and there was zero chance he'd be protected by the Doctor. He'd also be a huge threat to the mafia if he were town, doubly so if he were the Cop.
If I both I and webadict were scum, I'd kill ToonyMan or eduren. As previously noted, mafia often choose people based on who they suspect, so I'd go after someone who suspects webadict as a WIFOM.
Free Beer, you're the scum. Am I certain of it? I'm hardly certain of anything anymore. But you've skated by completely without suspicion, for mostly suspicious reasons, and it's time somebody start grilling you.
So you're saying you're confused and you're just going to OMGUS (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Omgus) me? How quaint. Wasn't that what got us all on Vector in the first place?
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Don't you DARE lynch Web over me. If you think I'm scum, lynch me FIRST. If you can't lynch me now, then don't bother later.
The only reason why you would NOT lynch me first is if you feel that I'm town THAT strongly. If you believe that I'm scum then kill me off. Seeing as I've derailed this thread over and over, even if my Bet didn't exist, "I" would be the most dangerous scum. If I'm not lynched now and a townie dies today, I'll easily mark you as "see? That person's mafia after all! They KNEW not to hit me now because it would prove me right. Now they want the final town lynch".
If we kill a scum, then, and ONLY then, am I willing to be offed.. it would still confirm me and give the town time to save themselves later. I just refuse to be the second town lynch.
Btw, a good reason why I keep on Jim/Web is because just about every other argument has always been Me/Someoneelse. It's also silly that, no matter what, I seem to be the one to kill 'afterwards'.
How about, instead of lynching a townie, we try lynching a suspected scum? I'd much rather try that, and I'm just going to say this now: I think it's eduren and ToonyMan right now. Maybe I'm crazy or wrong, but I'm taking a guess.
eduren, explain why you thought Vector was a good choice to lynch today?
As I already explained, dakarians plea seemed reasonable. I already had suspicions about him and so I went with someone i suspected rather than dakarian.
I actually cannot believe that you said this. I thought you were foolish before, but this takes both the cake and the entire fishing rod. Webadict and dakarian have already explained why this is dumb, so I'll let their words stand rather than repeat them. However, I don't understand why you didn't take the standard approach: why not convince the rest of us to off Jim first? We all know you're capable of your own walls of text--in your own defense, anyway.
Worse, it seems that you're getting credit for trying "hard lynches" by letting everyone else soften up the potential scum while you lurk about and occasionally vote. Please explain this behavior.
Because this seems like an unimaginably stupid and scummy thing to say, I'm going to give you space to backpedal and rethink your words before I vote you. Be warned: I think you've just signed your own death warrant, especially if you don't reply in a timely manner.
I agree.
eduren, explain why you thought Vector was a good choice to lynch today?
As I already explained, dakarians plea seemed reasonable. I already had suspicions about him and so I went with someone i suspected rather than dakarian.
If you thought he was a good lynch, then why were you willing to vote dakarian if Jim voted dakarian?
At that point i thought Jim to be the scummiest (still do) and thought that if we both called dakarian on his bluff then we might have a better standing tomorrow to take him down.
Why is it that you contribute nothing to the conversation, except to say, "Hmm, that's interesting. Why this, this and this?"
Im pretty sure that that contributes to conversation. I voice my opinion, ask a few followup questions and update people on my suspicions.
Who do you think is scum?
Jim and Toony OR Jim and Vector.
ToonyMan came out of NOWHERE there. I also disagree, because you don't contribute to the actual conversation that's happening. You're sitting back.
I actually cannot believe that you said this. I thought you were foolish before, but this takes both the cake and the entire fishing rod. Webadict and dakarian have already explained why this is dumb, so I'll let their words stand rather than repeat them. However, I don't understand why you didn't take the standard approach: why not convince the rest of us to off Jim first? We all know you're capable of your own walls of text--in your own defense, anyway.
You kidding? The last time I actively pursued someone I thought scum, I lost all credibility! To be honest I wasn't reading as closely as I should've. I ended up going with the flow and believing the mafia pros!
Once again the only thing Im guilty of is bad townsmanship!
No one is guilty of bad townsmanship unless they are scum, or they are not contributing. Anything you say can be helpful and if you lose your credibility, oh well. You regain it. You can't sit back and follow.
I am going to vote you, eduren, for your acknoledgements of poor gameplay, and your unhelpfulness.
However, I'm not sure whether or not we should lynch ToonyMan, since his gameplay is terribly hard to read. Look at Time Travel Mafia/Vote Mafia 1 and see if it's the same.
Apologies for the anger, first off.
It's not so bad to be a little rough. A major point of this game is to shake people like a tree until their emotions spill out. Once they lose their control, they'll better show their true colors.
Thus a big reason why I'm confrontational. I want to push my accuser until they break. I'll be honest, the whole "Doesn't matter what you say, you're dead" was less me being egotistical and more trying to panic you. :P
That said..the vote stays on you. I'm glad you've declared me town now. However, you did it after I said, and repeated, and repeated that it was the way others have protected themselves. That was NOT your argument when we started this merry-go-bomb. I'll be honest, had your 'insulting' post come first before everything else, I would've at least held back the Bet and turned to plain old WoTish grilling. Rather blah that you fling that out NOW of all things.
I have about one hour left before I go to work. I'll go back and read things out a bit (no time for a full scan though). Best I can give at this point.
I think we're misdirecting our attentions. It doesn't make sense that TWO people would defend someone and that they'd be teammates with him, considering that he could only have one teammate. If anything, those two people would be more suspicious.
I'm just thinking, but I'd rather we lynch either ToonyMan or eduren.
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Free Beer's wall of text
What? No word on your selective defense of ToonyMan?
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Free Beer's wall of text
What? No word on your selective defense of ToonyMan?
I never defended ToonyMan, and he is far from cleared.
Are you going to defend yourself or not?
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MOD: How much time do we have left? If it's less than an hour, can we get an extension? Almost half of the players haven't voted and have said they would return to vote.
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@ web: refering to Vector and you defending Jim?
Theory:
Vector had no prior reason to suspect Jim. That, along with the defense against your attack would cause Vector to feel better about Jim.
Remember, the theory I threw was that Jim would Bus Web, causing Jim to be the hero. Risky, but had I not jumped in, it would've been VERY effective, especially with Townie Vector vouching for it all. We were suspecting Web long before anything else showed up. Had Vector been lynched, it would've been a win for mafia, since it would fully 'certify' Jim. Why would a scum defend a townie after all?
Eduren seems willing to follow the flow for the most part. Why would he go after me instead of Jim when he was willing to go after Vector? Because Jim kept swearing "there wasn't enough votes". Eduren was calling JIM's bluff. As such, I don't see it as enough to mark him, especially compared to others.
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I'll accept an extension as well.
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The exchange begins here (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=39457.msg690897#msg690897).
You've only said, "I feel better about you now," to ToonyMan, and ToonyMan alone. Everyone else you've either questioned or accused.
And I don't really feel like getting into a giant wall of text war right now, when there's so little time in the day. I feel it's pointless anyway to try and convince you that I'm not guilty. You seem dead set on it. If I posted another giant wall of text, you would just post another one, and then declare, "Why won't you defend yourself?"
Do you disagree, Free Beer?
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The Whiteboard
Free Beer: Jim Groovester
Jim Groovester: Free Beer, dakarian
eduren: webadict
webadict: ToonyMan
Currently, the day ends in about half an hour. If we can get another vote for an extension, though, I'll push it to 5pm Pacific.
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The exchange begins here (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=39457.msg690897#msg690897).
You've only said, "I feel better about you now," to ToonyMan, and ToonyMan alone. Everyone else you've either questioned or accused.
And I don't really feel like getting into a giant wall of text war right now, when there's so little time in the day. I feel it's pointless anyway to try and convince you that I'm not guilty. You seem dead set on it. If I posted another giant wall of text, you would just post another one, and then declare, "Why won't you defend yourself?"
Do you disagree, Free Beer?
I said that to ToonyMan after he answered my questions and explained his actions sufficiently. I was backing down from having formally accused him and calling for his lynching.
If I accused Vector and he explained himself to the point where I was satisfied, I'd have done the same thing. It never got to that point.
Thanks to the extension, we've got another seven hours. I'm waiting. If you can conjure a consistent story that explains your actions and motives in a way that makes you seem town, I'll back off just like how I backed off of ToonyMan. I am willing to bet that you can't.
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This mafia keeps twisting and turning. One second we're lynching someone and then all of a sudden we're lynching someone else.
I vote an extension.
I'm thinking about unvoting webadict. I'm not sure what he is playing now. Yeah, let me do this.
Unvote.
Vote eduren. eduren doesn't seem to be getting pressured this day.
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Ok, since we got 3 votes for a day extension, the day will now end ~5pm Pacific tonight.
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All right. I really have to go now, and am going to be unable to be here for the rest of the day.
So, for reasons that should be obvious by now, I'm voting eduren. I suspected him on Day One, and I still suspect him today. And, for anyone who is going to try to get me lynched while I'm gone: I'm not climbing on a bandwagon, I just have no time. So yes, I'm going for the "obvious" lynch. This is because I have no time left to question anyone, so am voting like the day is about to end.
I actually cannot believe that you said this. I thought you were foolish before, but this takes both the cake and the entire fishing rod. Webadict and dakarian have already explained why this is dumb, so I'll let their words stand rather than repeat them. However, I don't understand why you didn't take the standard approach: why not convince the rest of us to off Jim first? We all know you're capable of your own walls of text--in your own defense, anyway.
You kidding? The last time I actively pursued someone I thought scum, I lost all credibility! To be honest I wasn't reading as closely as I should've. I ended up going with the flow and believing the mafia pros!
Once again the only thing Im guilty of is bad townsmanship!
You didn't lose all credibility because of that. You lost credibility because after your Heel Face Turn (check TVTropes if you don't understand), you went back to your old ferrety ways.
Vector, there is no conditional voting in this mafia, so you'll have to pick someone.
I'm sorry about that--I heard otherwise from someone else.
Anyway, if I'm allowed back in the game, I'll return on Saturday. Otherwise, Happy Mafia to everyone!
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We need sub.
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Comparing the last few WoTs with Toonyman:
Free declared his argument against Toonyman. Toony agreed that it was sillly but provided a reason why he did what he did.
You're dismissing some of the arguments in your current defense.
You hint that it was Web that got you convinced over Org instead of just saying you believed him guilty.
You don't see why Defending others is problematic, even though we keep talking about "who is this person with"
The whole thing I keep bringing up with you and the Bet came up again.
And then you OMGUS him. Attacking your accuser doesn't look well.
Every time you defend one point, you do something to make yourself look worse. That's why the spotlight hasn't left you yet. So far, everyone else who defends you just keeps saying "Look at that pereson over there". Web hasn't filled in the gaps well enough and Vector's given up on explaining your actions.
Fake edit: Well, good to see the extension, but my hour is up. I'm off to work now and I won't be back till 2am EST (11pm Pacific). That means my vote won't be able to change from here. Given what I've seen so far, I have no reason to do so. I can understand pressuring others, but don't forget about Jim. As for Eduren, the argument seems to be on his he handled my Bet. I stated my reasons why I can see Townie Eduren doing it.
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@ web: refering to Vector and you defending Jim?
Theory:
Vector had no prior reason to suspect Jim. That, along with the defense against your attack would cause Vector to feel better about Jim.
Remember, the theory I threw was that Jim would Bus Web, causing Jim to be the hero. Risky, but had I not jumped in, it would've been VERY effective, especially with Townie Vector vouching for it all. We were suspecting Web long before anything else showed up. Had Vector been lynched, it would've been a win for mafia, since it would fully 'certify' Jim. Why would a scum defend a townie after all?
Eduren seems willing to follow the flow for the most part. Why would he go after me instead of Jim when he was willing to go after Vector? Because Jim kept swearing "there wasn't enough votes". Eduren was calling JIM's bluff. As such, I don't see it as enough to mark him, especially compared to others.
To pretend to be a Townie? That's what scum try to do. Blend in.
Comparing the last few WoTs with Toonyman:
Free declared his argument against Toonyman. Toony agreed that it was sillly but provided a reason why he did what he did.
You're dismissing some of the arguments in your current defense.
You hint that it was Web that got you convinced over Org instead of just saying you believed him guilty.
You don't see why Defending others is problematic, even though we keep talking about "who is this person with"
The whole thing I keep bringing up with you and the Bet came up again.
And then you OMGUS him. Attacking your accuser doesn't look well.
Every time you defend one point, you do something to make yourself look worse. That's why the spotlight hasn't left you yet. So far, everyone else who defends you just keeps saying "Look at that pereson over there". Web hasn't filled in the gaps well enough and Vector's given up on explaining your actions.
Fake edit: Well, good to see the extension, but my hour is up. I'm off to work now and I won't be back till 2am EST (11pm Pacific). That means my vote won't be able to change from here. Given what I've seen so far, I have no reason to do so. I can understand pressuring others, but don't forget about Jim. As for Eduren, the argument seems to be on his he handled my Bet. I stated my reasons why I can see Townie Eduren doing it.
eduren has excuses, but none of them add up to anything.
No, I'm afraid I can't vote eduren anymore, since I really have to vote ToonyMan now. I can't let him live.
This mafia keeps twisting and turning. One second we're lynching someone and then all of a sudden we're lynching someone else.
I vote an extension.
I'm thinking about unvoting webadict. I'm not sure what he is playing now. Yeah, let me do this.
Unvote.
Vote eduren. eduren doesn't seem to be getting pressured this day.
...He's been pressured quite a bit by me and a few others today... I'm just sick of your anti-towniness. You're NEVER HELPFUL and I feel like you're acting like Time Travel Mafia.
I wouldn't feel so bad about lynching you if you were, you know, helpful. Or contributing. Or explaining. OR DOING SOMETHING!
Explain how you've helped the Town today?
Also, I'll be back in about two hours.
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Haha. You post more garbage than me webadict. You were the one to vote eduren first and then you vote me for voting him? Odd. I'm thinking you're scum again. I should stick to it too. But I cannot because of some sort of OMGUS rule or someother.
Unvote.
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As for helping town, if I can get a lynch on you that's one less scum. That's good right?
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Kashyyk will be taking over for Vector until he gets back. Thanks Kashyyk!
(I hope you've been reading along, because there is a TON of stuff to go through)
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Why not? We know Org is town now. Are you not willing to take responsibility for your prior actions? It would certainly be consistent with your behavior now.
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. Obviously lynching Org was a mistake, because he was innocent after all, but I can't lie about the steps I took to voting for him. Blatant dishonesty would be an even bigger scum tell than everything else you accuse me of.
Then why did you bother to jump in? You would have no reason to do so unless you thought you were involved. If my post was unclear to one of the people I was addressing, they would have called me on it.
Are you seriously jumping down my throat because I asked you to clarify something? Why would I have been remotely worried about you suspecting me at that point? You didn't voice any suspicions towards me.
You said I was very jumpy during Day 1. If I was jumpy, wouldn't I have flipped out when BloodBeard voted me at the beginning? Why would I jump at that particular ambiguous comment instead of BloodBeard's accusation?
It's not crap, it's buddying (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Buddying_Up), which is another scum tell. You'll notice that buddying figured prominently in my accusation of BloodBeard as well.
And you'll notice that BloodBeard was innocent. Are you proud of this? You were obviously wrong about him. Are you sure you're not wrong here? Maybe buddying isn't a scum tell, especially if you're dealing with newbies who haven't read the mafia wiki front to back.
You're related to both webadict and Vector, at the same time, whether you like it or not. You aren't two different people. My logic is very simple:
If webadict is scum, I'm 60% sure you're the other scum.
If Vector is scum, I'm 90% sure you're the other scum.
If Vector is scum, I'm 90% sure webadict is not scum.
If webadict is scum, I'm 90% sure Vector is not scum.
All of the above can be discerned immediately from my questioning of Vector. The evidence is all there.
All of these together push you to the top of my suspect list.
Can you explain why webadict is defending you? Can you explain why he only came down on you lightly, while he came down on Vector hardcore? If you're both scum there is an obvious reason why.
Can you explain why you are defending Vector and he is accepting the defense? If you're both scum then there is an obvious reason why.
I thought I just answered all of this? If you're going to repeat yourself, we're not going to get anywhere.
I don't know why webadict is defending me. From what I can tell, he's not. The most he said about me was that I might not be scum.
And I already told you why I defended Vector. I think he's innocent. He accepted my defense because any defense is welcome reprieve from the hammering he was getting.
Yes, it's stupid. That's why I am not buying into the "lynch dakrian now to prove he's town!" plan. But he would have no reason to do it if he were scum, and if he were town then that means he has some reason for wanting you dead so badly.
Maybe he's stupid. You said his plan is stupid, why not extend it to the person who suggested the plan?
In this game, there's always somebody who wants somebody else dead, so why are you willing to believe dakarian for this reason?
The only way to call dakarian if he is bluffing is to LYNCH HIM, not try to get everyone else to lynch him while you sit back safe in your little cubbyhole. Grow a pair already.
Indeed, the only way to call his bluff was to lynch him. Not just vote for him. I needed other votes to do that.
I already explained why I am hesitant to give my opinions at the beginning of Day Two. It causes people to clam up and OMGUS me instead of continuing to explain themselves. I want people to explain themselves. As previously noted, I was giving my opinions on Day One.
Caution. Is it still a scum tell even if you're trying to gather information? I think it is. You're being sneaky, and deliberately avoiding suspicion by deliberately withholding your suspicions. You're trying to fly under the radar, and that's scummy.
It's pretty funny that you accuse me of being a coward while you've admitted to deliberately hiding.
I was first on Vector, thank you very much. I was also first and only on BloodBeard, and first on ToonyMan.
At the time I left Vector to attack you, Vector had three people on him while you only had one. That's, like, the opposite of bandwagoning. And webadict jumped off Vector at approximately the same time that I did. Are you even paying attention?
So you were. Was your vote to get Vector talking, like mine on eduren was? That's what I figured it was. Did you change your mind after webadict accused Vector? I figure that's what you did.
Congratulations on being the one and only person to openly accuse our dear innocent BloodBeard! I don't know why you're touting this as an accomplishment.
You changed your vote after dakarian made his vote against me. Still bandwagony. You leapt off the Vector train after you saw that it was losing steam.
If I were scum and webadict were not scum, I'd kill webadict. His credibility was completely shot after he led the town on an Org lynch, and there was zero chance he'd be protected by the Doctor. He'd also be a huge threat to the mafia if he were town, doubly so if he were the Cop.
If I both I and webadict were scum, I'd kill ToonyMan or eduren. As previously noted, mafia often choose people based on who they suspect, so I'd go after someone who suspects webadict as a WIFOM.
Hold on, if webadict were the Cop, wouldn't that make him the obvious choice for Doctor protection? And if he is such a huge threat, wouldn't that still make him a pretty good choice for Doctor protection? He made that implicit tell of his. Are you mad you didn't pick up on it?
And why would you kill ToonyMan or eduren if you want their deaths to lead to webadict? ToonyMan suspected the both of them as scum, so that makes some sense. But why eduren? He voted for ToonyMan, and his death would lead directly back to ToonyMan. Aren't there better targets to cause suspicion on webadict, like dakarian, who openly accused him, even though he withdrew his accusation, or myself, because I was starting to suspect him at that point, too?
So you're saying you're confused and you're just going to OMGUS (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Omgus) me? How quaint. Wasn't that what got us all on Vector in the first place?
I won't let you marginalize my argument by saying that it's only a reaction to your accusation of me. Not all OMGUSes are wild backlashes. You've skated by unscrutinized. That's reason enough to accuse you.
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I'm going to go to sleep for an hour or two. This game kept me up all night, I was thinking so much about it.
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Heh, don't worry Meph, I'm fairly good at speed-reading.
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I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. Obviously lynching Org was a mistake, because he was innocent after all, but I can't lie about the steps I took to voting for him. Blatant dishonesty would be an even bigger scum tell than everything else you accuse me of.
What I'm getting at:
-You voted Org at the start, accusing him of lurking even though he posted. You kept your vote on him anyway after you realized this mistake.
-You went lurker hunting briefly, switched back to Org claiming he was lurking again, and then kept your vote on him claiming he was unhelpful.
-Clearly, you had marked Org, whom we now know to be town, for death right at the start.
Are you seriously jumping down my throat because I asked you to clarify something? Why would I have been remotely worried about you suspecting me at that point? You didn't voice any suspicions towards me.
That's the point. Why did you ask me to clarify something if I didn't voice any suspicions toward you? The only logical explanation for that behavior was that you thought I might have voiced a suspicion toward you.
You said I was very jumpy during Day 1. If I was jumpy, wouldn't I have flipped out when BloodBeard voted me at the beginning? Why would I jump at that particular ambiguous comment instead of BloodBeard's accusation?
You did jump. You ignored him and then when he pressured you further you OMGUS'd him, remember?
And you'll notice that BloodBeard was innocent. Are you proud of this? You were obviously wrong about him. Are you sure you're not wrong here? Maybe buddying isn't a scum tell, especially if you're dealing with newbies who haven't read the mafia wiki front to back.
Actually, if I'm dealing with people who haven't read the mafia wiki front to back, the theory presented there would be more valid, and not less.
I don't know why webadict is defending me. From what I can tell, he's not. The most he said about me was that I might not be scum.
After a few people lumped you in with Vector, webadict tried to separate the two of you. Why would he do that? If you don't know, then think for yourself and come up with a plausible reason that doesn't involve the two of you being scum-buddies. Vector could do it when I asked him about other people's motives, why can't you?
And I already told you why I defended Vector. I think he's innocent. He accepted my defense because any defense is welcome reprieve from the hammering he was getting.
If you think he's innocent, why do you think he's innocent? Is it because you're both scum and you're covering for him?
Maybe he's stupid. You said his plan is stupid, why not extend it to the person who suggested the plan?
In this game, there's always somebody who wants somebody else dead, so why are you willing to believe dakarian for this reason?
dakarian is willing to bet the fate of the entire game on your scumminess. He wants us to lynch him to prove he's town and then lynch you when we're in lynch or lose on the next day. It's a plan that would fail if he were scum. I'm thinking he has something on you that we don't know about. If you flip town after you die, I fully intend to call him on it.
Indeed, the only way to call his bluff was to lynch him. Not just vote for him. I needed other votes to do that.
So then why didn't you vote him? If you want to organize a bandwagon, at least show the courage to vote for the guy you want dead. dakarian did. Why can't you?
Caution. Is it still a scum tell even if you're trying to gather information? I think it is. You're being sneaky, and deliberately avoiding suspicion by deliberately withholding your suspicions. You're trying to fly under the radar, and that's scummy.
It's pretty funny that you accuse me of being a coward while you've admitted to deliberately hiding.
I stated explicitly that I was not willing to discuss my motivations while I was in the process of questioning Vector. I had very specific and understandable reasons for doing so. I'm not hiding. I've finished questioning Vector, and since then I have stated my motives for questioning him already.
I've also been quite plain about all of my suspicions that did not directly involve Vector, and I've been plain about my suspicions on Day One. Both of these are facts that you seem to ignore. Why do you try to twist the truth?
So you were. Was your vote to get Vector talking, like mine on eduren was? That's what I figured it was. Did you change your mind after webadict accused Vector? I figure that's what you did.
Congratulations on being the one and only person to openly accuse our dear innocent BloodBeard! I don't know why you're touting this as an accomplishment.
You changed your vote after dakarian made his vote against me. Still bandwagony. You leapt off the Vector train after you saw that it was losing steam.
You're claiming I'm bandwagoning. I gave very specific and explicit reasons why I am not. And I didn't leap off the Vector train when it lost steam - my leaving the Vector train was the Vector train losing steam. Immediately prior to my jumping, Vector had three votes - he would have gotten lynched if the votes stayed that way. Again, why are you trying to twist the truth?
My vote to Vector was not to get him talking, it was for enforcement - if he didn't answer my questions, there was the very real and present threat that my vote would stay on him. Vector is still my #2 suspect by merit (although that is quickly beginning to shift toward you), and I would probably have kept my vote on him anyway if I had not noticed that you are guilty by association to both my main suspects.
Hold on, if webadict were the Cop, wouldn't that make him the obvious choice for Doctor protection? And if he is such a huge threat, wouldn't that still make him a pretty good choice for Doctor protection? He made that implicit tell of his. Are you mad you didn't pick up on it?
The Doctor would have had no way of knowing whether webadict is the Cop. The only information that the Doctor had on Night One was that webadict just led the town on a bad Org lynch. Ergo, webadict was not protected on Night One. You seem to have trouble understanding this fact. Did you have more information at the beginning of Night One than what the rest of the town had? Are you scum?
And why would you kill ToonyMan or eduren if you want their deaths to lead to webadict? ToonyMan suspected the both of them as scum, so that makes some sense. But why eduren? He voted for ToonyMan, and his death would lead directly back to ToonyMan. Aren't there better targets to cause suspicion on webadict, like dakarian, who openly accused him, even though he withdrew his accusation, or myself, because I was starting to suspect him at that point, too?
Unlike the rest of your post, you do have a good point here. If I and webadict were both scum, I'd have killed ToonyMan, you, or eduren. ToonyMan and you for the stated reason of leading to webadict and therefore clearing him. eduren would also be for clearing webadict: recall that webadict's vote for Org saved eduren. Killing eduren would have cleared webadict as his bad lynch of Org would have 'saved' eduren.
I won't let you marginalize my argument by saying that it's only a reaction to your accusation of me. Not all OMGUSes are wild backlashes. You've skated by unscrutinized. That's reason enough to accuse you.
What IS your argument against me, anyway? All I see is that you're trying to build something out of nothing. I maintain that you're just OMGUS'ing.
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Okay, I have absolutely no idea what Vector was doing back there, so please don't judge me on what he said.
I'm going to start from the top and put my suspicions on the table.
dakarian: You seem suspicious to me, but only in that 'I have a hunch' kind of way. You seemed quite adamant about a Vector lynch but that looked understandable.
Webadict: I always suspect you. You are webadict. More often than not you are mafia. Period.
Jim Groovester & Free Beer: I reckon you two are both Townies who have just managed to spark each other off.
Fake edit: Actually, I don't remember seeing Eduren post at all recently, but I have been speed reading so I might have missed him.
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Fake edit: Actually, I don't remember seeing Eduren post at all recently, but I have been speed reading so I might have missed him.
Sorry, Ive been collecting my thoughts.
At this moment, Jim still looks the most suspicious. He was unwilling to call dakarians bluff because he was content with letting everyone duke it out. When I explicitly gave him the opportunity to do so, he still stalled by saying that he wanted more votes. He was scared to lynch someone he new to be mafia, something a townie wouldn't do. He was acting in his own interest, for his own skin.
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Damn, forgot Jim Groovester
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The Whiteboard
Free Beer: Jim Groovester
Jim Groovester: Free Beer, dakarian, eduren
ToonyMan: webadict
eduren: Vector
Reminder, you have 3 more hours before I end the day.
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Meph, could you change Vector to Kashyyk please?
Actually, i'll just unvote
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If Jim comes up town then the scum played you all.
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If Jim comes up town then the scum played you all.
Says the guy who isn't even voting, thereby allowing the scum to have more control of who gets lynched.
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lol
I can't vote webadict because then he'll pull OMGUS.
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lol
I can't vote webadict because then he'll pull OMGUS.
lol. Like you even care? That's a first. I really want you gone now. It's so unlike you to be so cautious...
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Vote webadict.
SCUM SUMC SUCM SUCMMMMMMMM
I CARE ALOT ABOUT GETTING SCUM DOOD.
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Double vote webadict. No.....QUADRUPLE vote webadict.
He must be lynched today.
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The Whiteboard
Free Beer: Jim Groovester
Jim Groovester: Free Beer, dakarian, eduren
ToonyMan: webadict
webadict: ToonyMan
One hour left.
You still only get one vote, Toony.
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I doubt I'm going to get killed this night seeing as webadict wants to put suspicion on me, I bet he's going to try to lynch me the next day while killing another town this night. If Jim flips town, I know exactly what is going to happen. If he flips scum......I have no clue. Hmmm.
See you all the next day.
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Sorry, Free Beer. Two walls of text in my defense is my cut off point. At that point it's hopeless. You've basically repeated yourself all over again, and I don't want to throw out a huge wall of text, if you're just going to go on like a broken record about the same things I keep answering.
Unvote Free Beer. Am I satisfied by his explanations? Not really. Does it bug me that he's openly admitted to hiding? It does.
I can't get over his selective interaction with ToonyMan. It's too odd that he would say that he felt better solely about ToonyMan, and then claim that he felt everybody else he accused failed to satisfy his suspicions.
I think ToonyMan is his partner.
I may as well touch on this if I'm going to be lynched.
Hold on, if webadict were the Cop, wouldn't that make him the obvious choice for Doctor protection? And if he is such a huge threat, wouldn't that still make him a pretty good choice for Doctor protection? He made that implicit tell of his. Are you mad you didn't pick up on it?
The Doctor would have had no way of knowing whether webadict is the Cop. The only information that the Doctor had on Night One was that webadict just led the town on a bad Org lynch. Ergo, webadict was not protected on Night One. You seem to have trouble understanding this fact. Did you have more information at the beginning of Night One than what the rest of the town had? Are you scum?
You know why I picked up on webadict's implicit tell? Because I am the Doctor.
Think about it. I was the first to mention anything about any power roles, right at the beginning of Day 2, because as the Doctor, I have to worry about things like that. I protected webadict during Night 1 because his implicit tell made me think that he was the cop, in which case, he would be the obvious choice for Doctor protection. That he didn't need my protection figured prominently in my accusation.
I still suspected webadict at this point, you realize. But if he was going to have proof... I couldn't pass up in the case that he really were the Cop.
Who would I have protected tonight? I have no idea. There are so many people gunning after me that I wouldn't care if all of them got night killed.
This is my final card. I have nothing else on the table, since I seem to be unable to defend myself against dakarian's and Free Beer's attacks.
Since you will lynch me and I will turn out to be the Doctor, I want hell to be made over Free Beer's accusations. Punk can't get a free pass.
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Sorry, Free Beer. Two walls of text in my defense is my cut off point. At that point it's hopeless. You've basically repeated yourself all over again, and I don't want to throw out a huge wall of text, if you're just going to go on like a broken record about the same things I keep answering.
And you lynched Org because he was being defensive and unhelpful.
I'll make a deal with you, Jim: pick two points I've made in my last post. Any two points. Make me go back on what I've said on those points, and I'll switch my vote to ToonyMan, thereby saving your life and lynching the person you suspect to be my partner.
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Sorry, Free Beer. Two walls of text in my defense is my cut off point. At that point it's hopeless. You've basically repeated yourself all over again, and I don't want to throw out a huge wall of text, if you're just going to go on like a broken record about the same things I keep answering.
And you lynched Org because he was being defensive and unhelpful.
I'll make a deal with you, Jim: pick two points I've made in my last post. Any two points. Make me go back on what I've said on those points, and I'll switch my vote to ToonyMan, thereby saving your life and lynching the person you suspect to be my partner.
There's not a lot of time. Would I be able to convince you anyway? Is this you being willing to reconsider?
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Sorry, Free Beer. Two walls of text in my defense is my cut off point. At that point it's hopeless. You've basically repeated yourself all over again, and I don't want to throw out a huge wall of text, if you're just going to go on like a broken record about the same things I keep answering.
And you lynched Org because he was being defensive and unhelpful.
I'll make a deal with you, Jim: pick two points I've made in my last post. Any two points. Make me go back on what I've said on those points, and I'll switch my vote to ToonyMan, thereby saving your life and lynching the person you suspect to be my partner.
There's not a lot of time. Would I be able to convince you anyway? Is this you being willing to reconsider?
You will have to make be back down on those two points. I'm not going to make it easy for you. But if you do it, I will keep my word.
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You will have to make be back down on those two points. I'm not going to make it easy for you. But if you do it, I will keep my word.
You're asking a lot of me. To make you back down on two points when you seem dead set against me, and in only twenty minutes. I'm not sure I'll be able.
But I can't pass up an opportunity like this. I'll do my best.
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Jim, there IS no Cop. Anyone that claims it tomorrow is lying. Believe me.
Oh, and Jim, protect Vector for me, will ya? I'd much rather I died then Vector or you do, but if you don't die tonight then Vector is a premium target.
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MOD: Any chance for a thirty minute extension? I want to give Jim a chance. He will probably back me up on this.
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Sure, I'm pretty busy at work right now anyway, so another 30 minutes works out for me too.
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Alright. You've got an hour, Jim. And you can pick the points. Don't waste it.
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Twenty minutes.
If I you don't reply soon, I won't have time to respond to your post.
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Jim, there IS no Cop. Anyone that claims it tomorrow is lying. Believe me.
Oh, and Jim, protect Vector for me, will ya? I'd much rather I died then Vector or you do, but if you don't die tonight then Vector is a premium target.
That's pretty much what I concluded after I protected you. If I don't get lynched right now, I'll protect Vector, or Kashyyk now. You two are about the only ones I'd be willing to protect anyway.
Gosh, this game is crazy. If you asked me earlier today whether I would protect webadict during the night, I would've said, hell no, not for that scum. How things change.
Are you seriously jumping down my throat because I asked you to clarify something? Why would I have been remotely worried about you suspecting me at that point? You didn't voice any suspicions towards me.
That's the point. Why did you ask me to clarify something if I didn't voice any suspicions toward you? The only logical explanation for that behavior was that you thought I might have voiced a suspicion toward you.
No, that's not the only logical explanation. Take a brief step back and assume I'm briefly innocent. If I'm innocent, then I was just trying to clarify your post. I wanted to be clear, and there's nothing wrong with that. You've done much the same to clarify other people's points, but theirs weren't so innocent as to ask you who you directed your post at.
You're making a giant mountain out of a tiny molehill. It's just another piece of funny behavior that you're latching onto because you assume I'm guilty. There's positively nothing behind it if you think I'm innocent.
Sorry, Free Beer. Two walls of text in my defense is my cut off point. At that point it's hopeless. You've basically repeated yourself all over again, and I don't want to throw out a huge wall of text, if you're just going to go on like a broken record about the same things I keep answering.
And you lynched Org because he was being defensive and unhelpful.
Org never threw up walls of text in his defense. If he had, I might've been less suspicious about him, and maybe the three people who voted for him as well would've been less so, too. That's basically what people were asking for him to do, wasn't it? So don't compare me with Org, please.
You're putting me in a Catch 22 with this. If I don't defend myself, I'm unwilling to defend myself, and therefore guilty. If I do defend myself, I'm being defensive, and I am therefore guilty.
I'm in an unwinnable situation, and the only way I can escape from it is if you let me.
Maybe he's stupid. You said his plan is stupid, why not extend it to the person who suggested the plan?
In this game, there's always somebody who wants somebody else dead, so why are you willing to believe dakarian for this reason?
dakarian is willing to bet the fate of the entire game on your scumminess. He wants us to lynch him to prove he's town and then lynch you when we're in lynch or lose on the next day. It's a plan that would fail if he were scum. I'm thinking he has something on you that we don't know about. If you flip town after you die, I fully intend to call him on it.
It's also a plan that will fail if we're both town. When I flip town, because I will flip town, dakarian will be strung up because he's bet his life that I'm scum. I'm reasonably, not entirely, certain that he's town. So, just like that, you've launched headlong into a lynch and lose situation, and you lost.
It's as webadict said: There's the possibility we're all being really stupid about this, with the way we seem to be dividing into teams without even knowing it. Vector pulled back after webadict said that, and I did as well. At least one of the three of us is not scum, according to you, so there's at least one townie, out there who's willing to pull back his suspicions and reconsider that we're heading for disaster with all of this.
dakarian didn't pull back his suspicions. Neither did you. I think you're deliberately unwilling to consider that the course of action you're taking is beyond flawed.
There, I tried. You got three, because I felt like it. It's up to you, Free Beer.
-
Are you seriously jumping down my throat because I asked you to clarify something? Why would I have been remotely worried about you suspecting me at that point? You didn't voice any suspicions towards me.
That's the point. Why did you ask me to clarify something if I didn't voice any suspicions toward you? The only logical explanation for that behavior was that you thought I might have voiced a suspicion toward you.
No, that's not the only logical explanation. Take a brief step back and assume I'm briefly innocent. If I'm innocent, then I was just trying to clarify your post. I wanted to be clear, and there's nothing wrong with that. You've done much the same to clarify other people's points, but theirs weren't so innocent as to ask you who you directed your post at.
You're making a giant mountain out of a tiny molehill. It's just another piece of funny behavior that you're latching onto because you assume I'm guilty. There's positively nothing behind it if you think I'm innocent.
I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here. A better argument would be "I'm the Doctor, so obviously I am going to be jumpy. Give me a break!"
Maybe he's stupid. You said his plan is stupid, why not extend it to the person who suggested the plan?
In this game, there's always somebody who wants somebody else dead, so why are you willing to believe dakarian for this reason?
dakarian is willing to bet the fate of the entire game on your scumminess. He wants us to lynch him to prove he's town and then lynch you when we're in lynch or lose on the next day. It's a plan that would fail if he were scum. I'm thinking he has something on you that we don't know about. If you flip town after you die, I fully intend to call him on it.
It's also a plan that will fail if we're both town. When I flip town, because I will flip town, dakarian will be strung up because he's bet his life that I'm scum. I'm reasonably, not entirely, certain that he's town. So, just like that, you've launched headlong into a lynch and lose situation, and you lost.
It's as webadict said: There's the possibility we're all being really stupid about this, with the way we seem to be dividing into teams without even knowing it. Vector pulled back after webadict said that, and I did as well. At least one of the three of us is not scum, according to you, so there's at least one townie, out there who's willing to pull back his suspicions and reconsider that we're heading for disaster with all of this.
dakarian didn't pull back his suspicions. Neither did you. I think you're deliberately unwilling to consider that the course of action you're taking is beyond flawed.
I'm not entirely convinced here. If we had more time, I'd throw something back at you. But we don't. At least you made a coherent point.
This is a very tough decision, Jim.
Unvote. Vote ToonyMan.
-
The Whiteboard
Jim Groovester: dakarian, eduren
ToonyMan: Free Beer, Jim Groovester, webadict
webadict: ToonyMan
You wrangle with the decision of who to lynch long into the night. Many pots of coffee are drank, and by the end you're all very tired. But, at long last, a decision has been made. ToonyMan is dragged outside and hung. You search his body once he is done twitching, and decide that you made the wrong choice. It seems he was a normal townsperson after all.
Though most of you are distressed by this, two of you hide glee behind your troubled faces. This town is very nearly in the mafia's power.
And so ends day 2. Night roles, send me your actions! You have until ~5pm Pacific Wednesday to get them to me. If you get them to me before that I'll try to shorten the night phase so we can get on with the game (no promises, though, I can get pretty busy).
-
You gather at the courthouse once again. Today, however, it is Jim Groovester who is missing. You head over to his house, and discover his body slumped down on his doorstep. At his side was a doctor's bag. A blow to the community, to be sure. You'll have to work harder to find these mafia if you want to stop them from taking over!
Ok, Day 3 has started! It will go until ~5pm Pacific Friday.
-
I HATE YOU ALL.
*falls back into the ground, but then reappears.
Why Jim, why? I was protecting you!
*falls into the dirt again
-
... I hate you ToonyMan.
So, we've got webadict, dakarian, Vector, eduren, and Free Beer.
That means two of you are scum and we're at lylo. I'm getting really bad at reading these people, so I'm going to ask Vector something:
Who's scum? I've obviously been wrong every time I've decided on someone, and the only person I can think who'd be scum is eduren, but I'd rather ask who you think is scum.
-
Crap. By Vector, I mean Kashyyk.
Anyhow, anyone alive, or are we going to do this in some weird let's not play way?
-
...
I was after the doctor?!
*sigh* ok.. I.. have NO idea where to go from here. Before I even ask anything, I'm going to have to do a run through the ugly mess that was yesterday. That scan might have to wait for tomorrow though. 2 am.. just came from work. Just found out that the situation is even WORSE than I imagined it would be AND that just about everything I knew was wrong.
-
...
I was after the doctor?!
*sigh* ok.. I.. have NO idea where to go from here. Before I even ask anything, I'm going to have to do a run through the ugly mess that was yesterday. That scan might have to wait for tomorrow though. 2 am.. just came from work. Just found out that the situation is even WORSE than I imagined it would be AND that just about everything I knew was wrong.
I'm not gonna say I told you so... but, well, I did. I'm guessing it was two groups of townies against each other. The problem is that I don't know if you, dakarian, are scum or not. And if you aren't scum then the team is Free Beer and eduren, who I keep passing up because I stop making him a threat...
-
What the hell happened with Toonyman?
webadict, why did you vote for Toonyman when you previously seemed determined on my scumminess? If its because of his foolishness why was it particularly damning on Day 2 rather than on Day 1?
Free beer, you gave the deciding vote to lynch Toony only 5 minutes before the end. Why did you vote Toonyman instead of Jim? Why did you provide almost no reasons for you vote?
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What the hell happened with Toonyman?
webadict, why did you vote for Toonyman when you previously seemed determined on my scumminess? If its because of his foolishness why was it particularly damning on Day 2 rather than on Day 1?
Free beer, you gave the deciding vote to lynch Toony only 5 minutes before the end. Why did you vote Toonyman instead of Jim? Why did you provide almost no reasons for you vote?
Because I couldn't risk ToonyMan. He's simply unreadable and that's bad... I regret that he was town, but not that he was lynched, because he's the most anti-town townie ever.
Also, you're scum, right?
-
...
I was after the doctor?!
*sigh* ok.. I.. have NO idea where to go from here. Before I even ask anything, I'm going to have to do a run through the ugly mess that was yesterday. That scan might have to wait for tomorrow though. 2 am.. just came from work. Just found out that the situation is even WORSE than I imagined it would be AND that just about everything I knew was wrong.
I'm not gonna say I told you so... but, well, I did. I'm guessing it was two groups of townies against each other. The problem is that I don't know if you, dakarian, are scum or not. And if you aren't scum then the team is Free Beer and eduren, who I keep passing up because I stop making him a threat...
I'm not sure if you are scum or not either, but I think we're just mirroring each other: something we've been doing a good bit of lately.
If there's ONE thing good out of this, though, it's that the Jim nightkill finally unlocks me from him. I was deadset to keep on him for Day 3.
As another would put it, btw, we stand a good chance of hitting scum today, if only at random. I'm wondering if it'll be easier to figure out who is least likely to be scum or else most likely.
Well, we can start with answering your question Web. Again, I havn't done my scan, so this is shooting from the hip (given my track record, might be best). Free Beer and Vector. Free Beer because of the vote switch. Vector because....because
#%%$ I don't know. I don't have any good targets yet so I guess it's almost a random choice. Still, if the question needs to be answered there you go.
Eduren seems to dislike Web and Free Beer.
So that leaves Vector and Free Beer to comment. Hey you guys, who do you think are our two culprits?
Sidenote: I dislike lynching 'anti town townies'. We've been lynching people who havn't been townie helpful like crazy (Org was silent and defensive. Toony was crazy and hard to read.) and we're about to lose the game. It's pretty clear that our mafias have been acting "very helpful" to the town and using the others as bait.
Another sidenote; From my gut instict: Vote Free Beer
My mind is saying " Idon't know what to do". My gut says "Hey Free Beer.. what's up?"
-
From day 2.
Jim, there IS no Cop. Anyone that claims it tomorrow is lying. Believe me.
Oh, and Jim, protect Vector for me, will ya? I'd much rather I died then Vector or you do, but if you don't die tonight then Vector is a premium target.
lolwat?
-
From day 2.
Jim, there IS no Cop. Anyone that claims it tomorrow is lying. Believe me.
Oh, and Jim, protect Vector for me, will ya? I'd much rather I died then Vector or you do, but if you don't die tonight then Vector is a premium target.
lolwat?
I feel like Vector is town now.
-
When did we find out Jim was Doctor?
-
I think I am going to question dakarian. I know you have a limited time online, so I am going to ask lots of questions at once. Although I would appreciate it if you answered them all, if you're on a serious time crunch it would be okay with me if you only answered a few of them. If you only answer a few of them, please answer the ones at the top of the list first.
- Could you tell us why you were so DEAD SET that Jim was scum? What evidence did you have?
- And could you tell us who you think is town? Be aware that there are still three townies present. What evidence makes you think that they are town?
- What do you think of webadict's "the four people who were at each other's throats yesterday were all town" theory?
- Could you elaborate on what you think of me? What do you think of my actions this game? What stands out?
- What did you think of ToonyMan's "eduren and webadict were out to get me on Day One so they MUST be scum" theory?
- What did you think of Jim Groovester's "webadict, dakarian, and Free Beer were out to get me on Day Two so they MUST be scum" theory?
When did we find out Jim was Doctor?
Jim claimed he was the Doctor about an hour before the scheduled end of Day Two.
Free beer, you gave the deciding vote to lynch Toony only 5 minutes before the end. Why did you vote Toonyman instead of Jim? Why did you provide almost no reasons for you vote?
I changed my vote to ToonyMan on the principle that if Jim were really the doctor, the mafia would go after him that night. If we simply lynched him, the mafia would go after whoever they wanted. Better to let the town decide who dies than the mafia, right?
The only issue then would be to determine whether Jim was the doctor. I had no way of knowing whether he was or was not the doctor, so I decided to work out if he was worth keeping alive at all. Hence, the deal that I proposed to him. If he could come up with any sort of decent argument that used logic and evidence, then I'd keep him alive and question him on Day Three. He scored 1.5 out of 2.
There were two reasons for me to specifically vote ToonyMan:
1. It was still plausible for him to be mafia. His only redeeming trait was his gambit at the beginning of Day One. Since he was crazy enough to do it in the first place and he chickened out at the halfway mark, it could have been possible that he did it as a WIFOM. Everything else he did (swing voting, lurking, lack of explanations) marked him as scum. His position on my list of suspects by merit was between Jim Groovester and dakarian.
2. If I voted anyone else, it would have tied the vote. Doing so would have saved ToonyMan, but it would also have meant that nobody died on Day Two. We would still have been in lynch-or-lose on Day Three regardless, so it would have been better to risk losing an extra townsperson. The potential gain (possible mafia lynch, easier to ID mafia on Day Three) was worth it.
Oh, and it was two minutes before the end, not five.
-
From day 2.
Jim, there IS no Cop. Anyone that claims it tomorrow is lying. Believe me.
Oh, and Jim, protect Vector for me, will ya? I'd much rather I died then Vector or you do, but if you don't die tonight then Vector is a premium target.
lolwat?
I feel like Vector is town now.
Not about Vector, silly, the part that I bolded. You flat out said "Jim, protect Vector". How did you know that Jim was the Doctor?
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1. this is a bit of OMGUSing I see :P
That said.
I think I am going to question dakarian. I know you have a limited time online, so I am going to ask lots of questions at once. Although I would appreciate it if you answered them all, if you're on a serious time crunch it would be okay with me if you only answered a few of them. If you only answer a few of them, please answer the ones at the top of the list first.
- Could you tell us why you were so DEAD SET that Jim was scum? What evidence did you have?
Day 1 I had no problems with him. It started with Day 2. I came in and realized I had no targets to aim at (a bad thing) so I decided to do a look through of all of the players. I started with Jim just because he was on the top of my list of players and planned to keep going. I noticed through my scan that Jim was pretty protective of Vector for some reason. I planned to move on, but my gut said to 'keep looking'.
So then I noticed the voting link between Jim and Vector: that they kept voting for the same person, even when that person changed. Now they seem to be charging on Web. I then looked up vector and noticed he accused Web of masterminding the Org lynch. However, I saw that Jim and Vector had their votes on Org long before and that Jim was the one to declare that we should aim for our 'final votes' and that Org was his target (right after Vector stopped showing as a threat). Web grilled org a good bit but as far as influence he didn't do much at all.
So I aimed for both of them, focusing on Vector. When I attack, I lay my accusations out and wait for the response. I expect answers, explanations, and reasonings. Jim gave me OMGUS and strawmen. I kept on him. Vector's response, along with dealing with Web led me to start my Bet, aimed at Vector. However, another person said "if you dislike Jim so much why not vote for him". It made sense, since Vector was defending himself pretty well and Jim no so much, so I switched.
When I made that bet, I expected either people would call me a crazy townie and don't vote on me or a bluffing scum and vote. Jim called me scum BUT didn't vote. That's silly to me: if I'm scum then lynch me. He claimed I was baiting him (STILL don't understand that). He claimed "I'll never get the votes to die" yet when enough people pledged to vote with him in order to bring a majority he STILL didn't vote...and STILL kept saying I'm a bluffing scum.
Eventually, he started defending himself, but it seemed like just picking options..any options to get out of the radar. Given how fast everyone else was looking at other people, I didn't want to let go: not while he still looked bad to me. If he had not died last night, I would've started the day with a vote on him, though I'd give him another shot at clearing himself.
That's my reasonings.
- And could you tell us who you think is town? Be aware that there are still three townies present. What evidence makes you think that they are town?
Blah. My picks of you and Vector for scum are really out of thin air. Even the 'reason' I gave for yours is BLAH. I just dislike the "I don't know what to do so I'll do nothing" mess.
Thus, if I'm unsure who is scum, I'm unsure who is town. I can give my picks on 'town' but be warned that it would be just as random. Since the scum pick would be Free and Vector, the town would be Web and Eduren.
IF I can do a scan today (late start today. Thank goodness for 48 hour Daytimes) I'll have Good picks with Good reasons.
- What do you think of webadict's "the four people who were at each other's throats yesterday were all town" theory?
Given Jim's death and that I'm one of the four, it's pretty darn accurate and very sad. Mafia chat must be full of laughter watching the town self destruct.
- Could you elaborate on what you think of me? What do you think of my actions this game? What stands out?
Note this is pre-scan, and my memory STINKS (I messed up how many players there are during Day 2, with ugly results).
Can't remember what you did Day 1. Day 2, a few things come to mind. Note that this isn't a "Why you are suspect" list so much as a "I remember this" list.
1. You were one of the Spectators, along with Toony and Eduren, watching Day 2's battle but only joining in at the end.
2. You took my offer but voted for Jim with an accusation post.
3. You switched at the last minute to Toonyman, based on Jim's post. After Toony was lynched, Jim was nightkilled.
4. You trusted me enough not to vote for me last day, but now you're willing to grill and vote for me now. Note I said "If you don't trust me then off me NOW. Don't avoid voting for me now and come after me later".
Again, that's not a "this is why you're scum" list. I need to actually do my scan to make one of those.
- What did you think of ToonyMan's "eduren and webadict were out to get me on Day One so they MUST be scum" theory?
Toony being Toony. He's a Kook without being given the roll. Thus, expect OMGUSing, among other things. It's a mark of interest that people were after him, but it was easy to be worried by his actions, so it's hard to mark people scum for acting on those worries.
- What did you think of Jim Groovester's "webadict, dakarian, and Free Beer were out to get me on Day Two so they MUST be scum" theory?
Jim ended up trusting me as town. Thus not even Jim supports that theory (don't remember him making that link, in fact).
When did we find out Jim was Doctor?
Jim claimed he was the Doctor about an hour before the scheduled end of Day Two.
#^(%#@YTYT$H I MISSED THAT!
My head hurts.
Moot point I guess though. Even if I spotted it and even IF I didn't take it for a "Mafia loves to claim doctor", it was Toony that got lynched. Blah.
Free beer, you gave the deciding vote to lynch Toony only 5 minutes before the end. Why did you vote Toonyman instead of Jim? Why did you provide almost no reasons for you vote?
I changed my vote to ToonyMan on the principle that if Jim were really the doctor, the mafia would go after him that night. If we simply lynched him, the mafia would go after whoever they wanted. Better to let the town decide who dies than the mafia, right?
The only issue then would be to determine whether Jim was the doctor. I had no way of knowing whether he was or was not the doctor, so I decided to work out if he was worth keeping alive at all. Hence, the deal that I proposed to him. If he could come up with any sort of decent argument that used logic and evidence, then I'd keep him alive and question him on Day Three. He scored 1.5 out of 2.
There were two reasons for me to specifically vote ToonyMan:
1. It was still plausible for him to be mafia. His only redeeming trait was his gambit at the beginning of Day One. Since he was crazy enough to do it in the first place and he chickened out at the halfway mark, it could have been possible that he did it as a WIFOM. Everything else he did (swing voting, lurking, lack of explanations) marked him as scum. His position on my list of suspects by merit was between Jim Groovester and dakarian.
2. If I voted anyone else, it would have tied the vote. Doing so would have saved ToonyMan, but it would also have meant that nobody died on Day Two. We would still have been in lynch-or-lose on Day Three regardless, so it would have been better to risk losing an extra townsperson. The potential gain (possible mafia lynch, easier to ID mafia on Day Three) was worth it.
Oh, and it was two minutes before the end, not five.
Strong reasonable argument so far. Unvote
Vote Eduren
Again, all this is prescan.
-
I'm satisfied with your answer to the first question, and I've got a couple of followups. Could you answer the rest post-scan? The amended list:
- And could you tell us who you think is town? Be aware that there are still three townies present. What evidence makes you think that they are town?
- What do you think of webadict's "the four people who were at each other's throats yesterday were all town" theory? In particular, how do you feel about webadict and Vector (now Kashyyk) being among those four?
- Could you elaborate on what you think of me? What do you think of my actions this game? What stands out? Are the actions scummy? Is my reasoning good or bad? Are the actions I made actions that you would reasonably take?
- If you think ToonyMan's theory was par for the course, what did you think about his continued insistence that webadict is scum?
- What did you think of Jim Groovester's "webadict and dakarian were out to get me on Day Two so they MUST be scum" theory? What did you think of his change to me after I accused him?
-
The Whiteboard
dakarian: Free Beer
eduren: dakarian, webadict
-
Post scan won't come till tomorrow. Stinks, but I'm completely spent (3 hour bus ride+ 2nd shift job = ugg). Might come at 2am though.
I'll throw in one last thought anyway fo the lulz and answer them again later.
Also realized that I'm WIFOM myself. I keep thinking up theories of why a person is town, then saying "That's what they want you to think". Bad enough self WIFOM when you waffle. It's a big red flag when you're literally QUOTING Princess Bride.
I keep thinking that it'll be easier to find who's town than who's scum. I'm hoping my scan will discover a player/combo of players who's actions would make NO sense if they are scum. For example, there are a few ways that Day 2 could've ended with near instant win for scum (no, I don't know them.. it's the Gut talking), rather than the ugly but possible chance we have now.
A player that had that game breaking chance but didn't take it would be a very good canidate for Confirmed Townie. I think if I can just find ONE person.. just ONE that fits that, the rest would fall into place.
For now, the best thing to do is hear from Vector and you , Free Beer: answer Web's question: Who do you think are the two scum? And why?
-
Post scan won't come till tomorrow. Stinks, but I'm completely spent (3 hour bus ride+ 2nd shift job = ugg). Might come at 2am though.
Print out the thread and read it on the bus :).
For now, the best thing to do is hear from Vector and you , Free Beer: answer Web's question: Who do you think are the two scum? And why?
There are 10 possible scum combos. I'm not scum, so that's -4. I'm not going to discuss the combos involving dakarian for reasons previously explained. On the remaining 3 combos:
Kashyyk/webadict is extremely unlikely, given Vector's behavior on Day Two.
Kashyyk/eduren is unlikely but possible, again given Vector's behavior on Day Two.
webadict/eduren was suggested on Day One. There is some evidence to support it, but not enough to make a strong, informed decision.
-
Post scan won't come till tomorrow. Stinks, but I'm completely spent (3 hour bus ride+ 2nd shift job = ugg). Might come at 2am though.
Print out the thread and read it on the bus :).
For now, the best thing to do is hear from Vector and you , Free Beer: answer Web's question: Who do you think are the two scum? And why?
There are 10 possible scum combos. I'm not scum, so that's -4. I'm not going to discuss the combos involving dakarian for reasons previously explained. On the remaining 3 combos:
Kashyyk/webadict is extremely unlikely, given Vector's behavior on Day Two.
Kashyyk/eduren is unlikely but possible, again given Vector's behavior on Day Two.
webadict/eduren was suggested on Day One. There is some evidence to support it, but not enough to make a strong, informed decision.
So, you're just going to remove dakarian from the list? That's a bunch of crap.
If we're going to do that, that's NOT informed AT ALL. Here's a list of ALL possible teams (Yes, I'll include me. Some of us aren't naive enough to think no one suspects them. You can't leave people off for no reason. You can however, remove them after you explain):
eduren/Vector
eduren/Free Beer
eduren/dakarian
eduren/webadict
Vector/Free Beer
Vector/dakarian
Vector/webadict
Free Beer/dakarian
Free Beer/webadict
dakarian/webadict
These are are physically possible combinations. Now, obviously, I know I'm not scum, so I can eliminate them from my suspicions.
eduren/Vector
eduren/Free Beer
eduren/dakarian
Vector/Free Beer
Vector/dakarian
Free Beer/dakarian
That leaves these six combinations. For some reason, I feel like Vector is town, so I'll eliminate him from my suspicions list, which leaves:
eduren/Free Beer
eduren/dakarian
Free Beer/dakarian
These three. See, the problem with me is that I'm can't read any of you three, because most of you are new. My gut says eduren is definitely one of the scum, but I like to second guess myself. I really really wish Kashyyk wasn't the replacement for Vector, because Kashyyk NEVER EVER SAYS ANYTHING! I want a Day Extension or replacement or something because I know Kashyyk will never come back...
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So, you're just going to remove dakarian from the list? That's a bunch of crap.
I didn't say that. I said "I'm not going to discuss them." If you're that interested, ask me again after I've questioned dakarian further. There's a good chance I'll report the results anyway after I've finished.
For the record, your reaction did not do much to help clear the webadict/dakarian combo.
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So, you're just going to remove dakarian from the list? That's a bunch of crap.
I didn't say that. I said "I'm not going to discuss them." If you're that interested, ask me again after I've questioned dakarian further. There's a good chance I'll report the results anyway after I've finished.
For the record, your reaction did not do much to help clear the webadict/dakarian combo.
I don't care about clearing any combo. Only that you AREN'T clearing dakarian. I'm more interested in clearing myself, thank you, because the only thing I'm aware of is that I'm town. Everything else is only a guess. I'm guessing Vector is town. I'm guessing eduren is scum. I'm not here to prove myself to you alone. I'm here to help the town.
Oh and just so you know, you didn't do much to clear the dakarian/Free Beer combo.[/sarcasm]
The fact is, combos cannot be cleared. You can only assume that so-and-so is not mafia because of this-and-this. Please don't assume your combo list is all important, because it's just a list, and a list doesn't tell you who's mafia. You make inferences, observations, and, if it comes to it, you make informed guesses. The mafia themselves are sure of everything because they know who is town and who is scum. I can't honestly say I know who is scum. I just know that I am not.
-
Sorry guys ill be gone 'till tonight. For now, Im going to say that web looks fishy but it really could be anyone.
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Sorry guys ill be gone 'till tonight. For now, Im going to say that web looks fishy but it really could be anyone.
If you think I'm fishy, why aren't you voting for me? What about me is fishy? Please feel free to be as vague as possible, because that's going to get us somewhere. You're not the least bit concerned that you're up for lynch, so I'd rather you did something, because not doing anything doesn't help either team, no matter which side you're on.
-
The Whiteboard
dakarian: Free Beer
eduren: dakarian, webadict
Reminder: Day 3 ends ~5pm Pacific Friday. However, I may have to extend that a bit as I might have to go to work at 3am tomorrow, and that'll mess up my whole schedule. I won't end the day before 5, though.
-
Don't be surprised if we are screaming "EXTEND" well before that :P
Yes yes, I'm scanning now.
-
Alright. Did a scan of Day 2, focusing on how people struck at each other.
First off, those possible combos again:
eduren/Vector
eduren/Free Beer
eduren/dakarian
eduren/webadict
Vector/Free Beer
Vector/dakarian
Vector/webadict
Free Beer/dakarian
Free Beer/webadict
dakarian/webadict
Now, since I know I'm town, I'll remove myself from it, leaving:
eduren/Vector
eduren/Free Beer
eduren/webadict
Vector/Free Beer
Vector/webadict
Free Beer/webadict
Now, I took a look at attacks that one person made to another. First off, I noticed that a large batch of the attacks involved dead people (Toony/Jim) or involved me. Of the rest:
Vector pretty much butted heads with everyone at this point, with Free Beer starting off nice and fresh in the day, then later Web attacking him. Eduren joined in via my bet while it was still aimed at Vector. Meanwhile, Vector didn't like Eduren or Web, with most of the dislike towards Eduren until Web showed up. Unless I missed it, it seemed that Web and Free Beer both brought Vector into the spotlight while Vector started everything on Eduren.
The point? I'm trying to would be CRAZY for the mafia to do. Bussing a partner when it seems they may die can make sense, though it's a gamble. Starting the fight off with them without ANY prior suspicions is just too crazy.
Sidenote: The whole Jim/Web theory I had was based on Jim having no suspicions and Web having plenty just for being Web.
Thus, by that idea, Free Beer/Vector and Web/Vector are bad options since Vector was called out by both people, ESPECIALLY Web. Meanwhile, Vector helped pull Eduren into the spot light again and would've gone further had Web not charged in. Thus Eduren/Vector is out. For those still linking me as a possible scum, I could've just sided with Vector/Jim against Webadict or just charged STRAIT for Jim and ignored Web's protests. The former would've been easier, with Jim supporting Vector and Toony probably ready to tear into Web. That makes Dakarian/Vector out :P
And with that, Vector would have NO partner if he's scum. Without a partner, he's a good canidate for being a townie.
Assuming that:
eduren/Free Beer
eduren/webadict
Free Beer/webadict
We're down to this.
Hmm, for now I'll go ahead and post that then finish the rest in another post.
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So to recap:
All of the dead people were townies, so they aren't scum..of course.
Vector was under direct attack by everyone but Eduren, and he attacked Eduren. Him being scum with another is just plain madness, since the attacks involved bringing someone under low/no suspicion and getting them into the spotlight. Scum tend to prefer bussing someone already IN the spotlight. As such, it suggests that Vector is Town.
Assuming that, we're left with this:
eduren/Free Beer
eduren/webadict
Free Beer/webadict
Or, for those "Don't kick Dakarian out of this" folks:
eduren/Free Beer
eduren/webadict
Free Beer/webadict
Dakarian/webadict
Dakarian/Free Beer
Dakarian/Eduren
Here's where things get silly. You see, there's not much interaction between these folks on Day 2. Me and Web went at each other but for and against, though I kept on Jim all day. Web threw a vote on Eduren, but turned to Toonyman after Toony voted on Eduren (sidenote: Toony's vote gave Eduren the majority till Web pulled his off).
So, Day 1 might give something:
First off, I think I can mark Eduren/Me off the list due to my WoT on him. Vector stated some suspicion but overall people were looking elsewhere. After my WoT, Blood joined in, putting Eduren into lynching position. Yes, I pulled out later after his explanation, but I still set the spotlight on him when I could've just aimed for someone else.
A little stumped from here.. so I'll get to answering questions:
# And could you tell us who you think is town? Be aware that there are still three townies present. What evidence makes you think that they are town?
I'm town because I know I am (yes, everyone will say that :P). Also Vector I believe is town due to what I wrote earlier.
# What do you think of webadict's "the four people who were at each other's throats yesterday were all town" theory? In particular, how do you feel about webadict and Vector (now Kashyyk) being among those four?
Only way it wouldn't work is if Web is one of the scum. It's a possiblity.
# Could you elaborate on what you think of me? What do you think of my actions this game? What stands out? Are the actions scummy? Is my reasoning good or bad? Are the actions I made actions that you would reasonably take?
Excluding those that are already dead, you havn't really fought against anyone, though you do poke around a bit. You're pretty useful, so that's a push for town, but you can be linked with any of the others easily, so that's a push for scum. You made a wonderful defense, though so you're a little ahead of the others in towniness.
# If you think ToonyMan's theory was par for the course, what did you think about his continued insistence that webadict is scum?
Tricky, since he tended to jump very quickly and not give a lot of analysis. Besides, it's hard to use the accusations of others along to mark scumminess, since it's easy enough for said townies to be wrong.
# What did you think of Jim Groovester's "webadict and dakarian were out to get me on Day Two so they MUST be scum" theory? What did you think of his change to me after I accused him?
I stated the answer to #2 on day 2.. he OMGUS you, which I called him out on. The theory itself is OMGUS. Just because someone wants you dead doesn't mean they are scum. You need more evidence than that.
Btw:
Hey Web! About Day 2. There were 3 people on Eduren after you voted for him (after the whole comment about the 'four townies killing themselves') and, once the third vote-Toony-came on, you pulled from Eduren and went after Toony..turning a possible Lynch into a possible Tie.
Why did you do that?
Hey Eduren! What do you think of me? Scum or town?
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Because I can't read ToonyMan. He's anti-Town as town and scum.
Also, dakarian, your analysis is fallacious for someone who really hates fallacies. You say anyone who attacks anyone can't be partners, but that's simply dumb. Scum can do whatever they want.
Also, dakarian, I believe the scum team to be you and eduren. Especially with your little "Oh, that can't be the team" statement.
Also, I was talking to someone else when I said don't kick out dakarian. It's funny because you actually left yourself in, making your town comment moot, and basically copying me.
Just so everyone knows, the scum team is indeed dakarian/eduren.
It's now incredibly simple to see.
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Okay, I'm here now.
Lots of homework + A flight to spain = a loss of seventy-two hours.
Anyway, enough maths for now.
Finally someone thinks I'm town. Although Webadict, you are right about not discounting me from the possible mafia ranks, just because everyone who is alive attacked Vector/Me at some point.I mean, if I was scum I would do exactly that.
But anyway, again refering to Webadict, I think you wanted to know who I though the Town was. Well, The simple answer would be two of you four but that doesn't help. I have to disagree with you Webadict, as I feel that Dakarian is Town. Don't ask why, but I think he is now. The other Towny, I have no idea.
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I'm telling you: If it's not dakarian, it's Free Beer.
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I've got more followups, dakarian:
- Your vote is currently on eduren. Why is it on eduren?
- Could you be more specific on your thoughts of the following of my actions:
-When I threatened to hammer Org on Day One
-When I voted Vector on Day Two
-When I FOS'd webadict (multiple times) on Day Two
-When I refused to buy into your plan on Day Two
-When I voted Jim Groovester on Day Two
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A thought just occurred to me. Kashyyk and eduren aren't voting. If even one of them is town, then we have just lost, since the mafia can tie the vote.
Therefore, Kashyyk and eduren, I intend to vote one of you if you haven't voted by the time dakarian responds to my questions.
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Because I can't read ToonyMan. He's anti-Town as town and scum.
Also, dakarian, your analysis is fallacious for someone who really hates fallacies. You say anyone who attacks anyone can't be partners, but that's simply dumb. Scum can do whatever they want.
The thing is with that statement: once you give scum 100% reign to do ANYTHING, you hit yourself with a WIFOM.
Example: Web is choosing Eduren because he thinks hs scum
But "That's what he wants us to think". He's actually choosing me first in a Lynch of Lose so his theory on Eduren would never be tested.
The entire reasoning behind scum tells is twofold:
1. Although scum know they NEED to avoid showing themselves off, they tend to fail in some way.
2. If the scum truely, TRUELY worked Pro-town along side the town, they'd lose since they'd ferret themselves out.
At some point, the mafia would HAVE to break from the town. Their goal is to make the break so small that no one wouuld really notice.
For example. although we do know that mafia will bus one another, why in the world would someone take their partner, who no one is even considering seriously for scum, and drag their name through the mud to the point of a near lynch? That's Crazy talk and a major major risk of failure. In the end, Mafia people can't gamble and can't give or take bets..not really.
Is it POSSIBLE for the Mafia to decide "Ok, we'll just jump in and kill you out of nowhere, then I stand to be the hero"? I guess, but now you're second guessing everything at that point and EVERYONE looks guilty, since "That's what scum can do!"
Thus why Vector went off the list of scum. Web took someone no one cared about in Day 1 and made him a big suspect, then continued it Day 2. I skipped over a Web lynch in order to go after Vector and Jim and made a BIG deal there. Vector invited Eduren into the spotlight on day 2 by saying that he was worse looking than Web. Free Beer managed to jump ahead of everyone day 2 and target Vector first before everyone else went nuts on him.
[/quote]
So, how does that reasoning remain 'bad'?
Also, dakarian, I believe the scum team to be you and eduren. Especially with your little "Oh, that can't be the team" statement.
You Bus teammates that were going to die anyway so that you can make some gains from it and hopefully hide the link between the two of you. CREATING a bandwagon to GET your teammate killed is crazier than a mafia screaming "LYNCH ME!" when 4 people suspect you scum (Web, Jim, Toony, and Vector). Had all who suspected voted, it would've been an easy majority. Web, I remember you declared the "Four townies" theory based on that, which is what lead you to look at others.
You seemed willing to believe I was town on Day 2 when I made that bet, but now you swear I'm guilty. Exactly what do you think was my thinking behind my bet? Remember, 4 people thought I could be scum. At one point, I had 3 people pledging to vote for me and Jim was after one more. If you had ANY thought that I could be scum, why didn't you become that fourth? Under what grounds would I would have ANY thought that I would be safe from dying? What's more, how would that help Eduren if he was my partner? He bandwagoned in, daring Jim in the process. Had I died scum, it would give full credit to Jim and do nothing to help Eduren. Can you really think that I would be able to guess that Jim would hedge and you wouldn't get involved?
Besides, you can't just say "I think your scum because you removed the Dak/Eduren combo." I gave a REASON for it. To kill my argument, you need to destroy that REASON. I said that I had turned a very low risk lynch for Eduren, skipped over more agreeable attacks like Org or Toony, and WoTed him into a near death situation. If you want to claim "bluff since you pulled out before the lynch" then you assume I'm not bussing, but then WHY would I put Eduren into that situation when going after ANYONE ELSE would've done better? It wouldn't have been much for another to join in after my vote and finish the lynch. Meanwhile, if I was bussing him, WHY would I pull out? Why not press him until he dies?
So explain my actions on Day 1 if Eduren and me were teamed.
Also, I was talking to someone else when I said don't kick out dakarian. It's funny because you actually left yourself in, making your town comment moot, and basically copying me.
I stole the ENTIRE 'group up' list from you, not just the comment. I was about to do my scan when I saw it and went "oooo cool idea". I noticed that some people are still suspecting me so, for full discloser, I made the second group with my name in it.
I thought that copying was a scum tell when it's copying of other people's accusations, not stealing a list of names.
Just so everyone knows, the scum team is indeed dakarian/eduren.
It's now incredibly simple to see.
To sum up:
1. Scum CAN attack their teammates, but only the insane will bring someone hidden and pull them into high suspect. The main times when scum attack themselves is either when they know it won't lead to anything serious or when they are bussing someone already suspect.
I put Vector out since he's broken that concept with everyone: either someone brought him into the light or he brought someone else.
Sidenote: Me having that theory for considering Vector as town is MUCH better than your "For some reason, I feel like Vector is town," mess. Yes, we both come to the same conclusions, but no explanations for your actions doesn't look as well.
2. Your reasoning for the Eduren/me combo is just because I said no to it? You'll need to explain my Day 1 actions then.
Sidenote: from you: "eduren, who I keep passing up because I stop making him a threat". You're passing him up AGAIN, and in a Lynch or lose. You prevented the Eduren lynch bandwagon YOU started the second Eduren was at risk to lynch, and you go after the person who made the lynching vote!
So if you think Eduren an me are linked..then funny that because with me thinking Kashyyk is town and Free Beer is more pro-town than you or Eduren, that leaves me to think that it's you, Web, and Eduren that's the pair.
Well, we're both voting for Eduren, so he'll be dead in due time. As such, we just have to decide whether you bussed him or I did.
3. It was copied since it was interesting and useful. That CAN'T be the main argument to lynch me, can it?
In answer to Free Beer:
-Given that I ended up being the hammer to Org's lynch, I can understand.
-You did it in response to my Bet IIRC. By how it looked, you believed me town and decided to kill the 'scum' rather than the townie.
-Web kept dodging Vector's questions in Day 2, which made him look bad.
-You technically did buy into it. Remember the whole "if I'm town, declare it. If I'you even suspect I'm scum vote me". You did the former and went after my target, first Vector, then Jim.
-Felt so legitimate that I had to question you when you pulled away at the last minute. You've since explained your reasonings, complete with a good "If I was mafia, I would've gained more if I did something else" idea, which I'm finding is a good way to tell who's town at this point. The actions, including the explanations, is why you're leaning town at the moment.
Btw, good point with the risk of a tie there. Gotta watch for that. We can't no lynch this game.
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Web, before you say "what you did Day 1 I did Day 2", I notice that now, although I could argue that I pulled out after Eduren made his defense that convinced me, while you decided to go kill of Toonyman, even when you believed that Eduren was scum..even though Toony gave you the votes needed to lynch Eduren.
I mean jeesh you go heavy on Eduren, you get the votes needed to kill him, then when Toony gave you that vote "...He's been pressured quite a bit by me and a few others today... I'm just sick of your anti-towniness. "
So you Switched from a positive lynch to a TIE VOTE situation because toony didn't acknoledge your argument? You almost didn't even CARE if he was town since he was So Unhelpful...even though that death leads us to a lynch or die.
No matter how much you hate how the Kook looks, it's still bad for the town to lynch him. That's why I don't go after people who are mearly being 'unhelpful', since it quickly leads to exactly what you said: townies killing townies till the mafia wins. YES, you thought he was mafia, but you skipped out a guaranteed lynch for a TIE, especially when you could've just killed Eduren then and finished off Toon later.
Jeesh, I was supposed to agree that me you both did similar before I wrote that blob o text above. Now it doesn't look similar at all.
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Right. Questioning you isn't getting anywhere, dakarian. If you're scum it's because either you or your scumbuddy sees what I am doing and you want to hide it; if you're town it's because you don't want to think before you answer. So I'm just going to come right out and say it:
I thought that copying was a scum tell when it's copying of other people's accusations, not stealing a list of names.
This is exactly what you did.
-When I threatened to hammer Org on Day One, I cited the fact that he did not vote. You then proceeded to switch to Org... because he didn't vote.
-When I asked Vector to "compare Jim's actions with his own," your next post detailed how Jim and Vector had more or less the same move list.
-You initially voted Jim but then switched to Vector for frivolous reasons. A likely explanation was that Vector already had votes on him.
-When I refused to buy into your plan on Day Two, I stated that "we'd be better off just voting Jim now," in regards to your "lynch you" plan. You then proceeded to switch your target from Vector to Jim.
-When I voted Jim Groovester on Day Two, I cited numerous reasons why he should be lynched. I also listed a few more over the course of my argument with him. You incorporated a few of these in your final accusation when you decided to keep your vote on Jim.
The fact is, you've been stealing other people's ideas for the entire game. My question as to whether my actions could reasonably have been yours was supposed to highlight this, but you ignored it.
Also, you didn't really answer why you're voting eduren specifically. The fact that eduren is the only two man bandwagon right now, and has been for the last 24 hours, makes me really suspicious.
I'm thinking it's webadict/dakarian.
-On Day Two, after the town had separated into the Jim/Vector and webadict/dakarian camps, webadict came forward and tried to split the vote up by advancing his "these four people are town" theory.
-When I asked dakarian about webadict's "four people are town" theory, dakarian kept trying to say it was right. The fact that both webadict and dakarian were part of those people has not escaped notice.
-When I asked dakarian questions about other people's opinions of webadict, dakarian was evasive. He was making excuses as to how the parties in question could be wrong, rather than trying to understand the motives behind the opinions.
-dakarian only ever voted webadict very briefly, despite having FoS'd webadict numerous times.
-Did webadict ever vote dakarian? If he did, it was for such a short time that I don't remember it.
-webadict overreacted when I mentioned that I was thinking about webadict/dakarian earlier in the day.
-Above mentioned two man bandwagon.
-With the exception of Jim Groovester, dakarian has been either last or second-to-last on every single bandwagon he has ever participated in.
-As mentioned above, dakarian has been stealing ideas.
-webadict himself also acted like scum: First he tried to get everyone to think he was the Cop, then when Jim called him on it he tried to get everyone to think he was the Doctor. He later backpedaled and tried to get everyone to think he was a normal townsperson.
-webadict tied the vote against eduren. I'm guessing dakarian stepped in since nobody else was hammering Org, and an intentional tie would look even worse than a bad lynch. I threatened to do it, but stopped short.
Anyway... Unvote.
Kashyyk and eduren, if you are reading this, VOTE! Vote for who you think is scum. If you can't decide, use a d4 - if you are town, you'll have a 50/50 chance of hitting scum. IF YOU DO NOT VOTE THEN THE TOWN WILL LOSE!
I'll switch over to dakarian or webadict later in the day, depending on how the votes fall. If the votes ever fall.
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The Whiteboard
Kashyyk: Free Beer
eduren: dakarian, webadict
Day will close somewhere around 5pm Pacific today. Might be a bit later, as I'm wrapping up an early morning maintenance here at work (3am-11am...ugg) and am going to go home and sleep. I'll probably be awake by 5, but I make no promises.
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Okay, Free Beer. I am here now.
Right, because both Webadict and I disagree on who the second scum is, I'm going to vote for the one we agree on. Eduren.
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Not what I was hoping for.
Whatever. Unvote. Vote webadict.
Here's hoping the town experiences a fit of sanity.
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Okay, Ill vote webadict.
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2. If the scum truely, TRUELY worked Pro-town along side the town, they'd lose since they'd ferret themselves out.
[OOC: That's silly. Scum can quite easily root out incredibly scummy people. They won't actually be scummy, but you don't have to be scum to give off scum tells. They won't root themselves out, but they'll root out likely suspects, and will apologize if everyone they vote for flip Town ("Well they were acting Scummy, so it was fine by me").]
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The Whiteboard
eduren: Kashyyk, dakarian, webadict
webadict: Free Beer, eduren
You grab eduren and drag him outside. He struggles as you string the rope around his neck, but he's no match for the rest of you. He's swinging from the rope in short order, and once he's stopped kicking you cut him down. You search his stuff, and it looks like he's just a normal townsperson.
As you turn and look at each other, Free Beer and Kashyyk pull out guns from under their coats. "Well, now, this has all been a fun diversion." says Free Beer, "but if you gents will excuse us, I've got a town to run." He motions to Kashyyk, "Kashyyk, take care of these two, will ya?"
"Yeah, boss, sure thing. These townsfolk won't bother you any more, I promise." says the Mafia Goon, as Free Beer the Mafia Godfather walks over to his car. With a few gunshots, the mafia's control of the town is assured.
Ok, game is over! Good job Mafia, you guys did a superb job! And good job all around, this is one of the better games I've run, I think.
Here are the links to the Mafia Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/a2a2J96HMLF) and Dead Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/xJFgW7yrW9znn).
Chaoticjosh, Pandarsenic, Alexhans, did you guys still want to do rundowns of the game?
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Do'h. Dood.
Sorry webadict. I only suspected Free Beer a little. I didn't even suspect Vector/Kashyyk.
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To be honest, I didn't pay as much attention to the game as I should have, but I've skimmed over pretty much all of it, and I'll just give a little generalization of everyone:
Webadict did a good job leading everyone with his particular brand of zeal, and although he was wrong in the end, he was a good example for everyone.
Eduren and Dakarian are VERY VERY promising mafia players. They analyze things, and let their thoughts be heard. The problem comes where they OVER-analyse things, such that it diludes their judgement.
The group as a whole should have been harder on the side-players, rather than focusing on the most vocal ones. I think this is why mafiosos Kashyyk and Freebeer managed to succeed like they did.
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Dang it eduren! Why didn't you even try to defend yourself?!?
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Maybe scum had a brain doctor? They can brain wash one person during the game.
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I KNEW they were scum. I knew it ALL ALONG!
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Well, reading the mafia/dead chats, I have to say excellent job Vector and Free Beer. I really think that it was that day 2 confusion that you sowed, and then successfully pulled out of, that decided the game. Especially the part where Webadict was vouching for Vector's townieness, which was excellent in retrospect.
One question for Kashyyk:
Just so everyone knows, the scum team is indeed dakarian/eduren.
Why did you disagree with Webadict there? That was one of the scum pairings that you (as mafia) really really liked, since it was advanced by webadict and didn't involve you or Free Beer. Yet, even though you had reasons to agree with that pairing for pro-town reasons and it would have meant near-certain victory for you, you responded with a post that pointed out your potential scummyness and disagreed with Web's analysis. It seemed like a very odd response to me.
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Sorry guys I couldn't get to my computer.
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Curse those never-ending stairs toying with you eduren!
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To be honest i don't think i could have said anything to change your guys' minds. Especially web, you seemed pretty certain.
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That's crap logic Eduren, if Mafia's taught me anything, it's that you shouldn't give up until the very end. Say anything and everything you have to get what you need done. Never admit defeat until the very last second, and even then, you should be pouring your heart out to win.
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I knew vector was one after day 1, it was free beer who threw me off. Free beer, it's funny that you mentioned that comment I made about reading people (though you misread it a bit) in the mafia chat. I posted that to try and lure scum into accusing me with it if I were to be a townie. I would have rallied against you if you had quoted it in the topic, nice.
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That's crap logic Eduren, if Mafia's taught me anything, it's that you shouldn't give up until the very end. Say anything and everything you have to get what you need done. Never admit defeat until the very last second, and even then, you should be pouring your heart out to win.
I would have, if I was able to.
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I know, just don't put yourself down, alright?
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I could've been persuaded. It's your lack of defense that made me angry. You didn't even try. You say what you need to say, like CJ said. I've been on the edge before, and it sucks but it's not the end. What you need to do is speak from your heart. Yeah, I thought you were scum, especially since you gave up right there.
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Post-game analysis:
-BloodBeard: You did a good job trying to think things through, but you were too obvious about the fact that you were thinking things through. It's why the mafia targeted you on Night One. If you're town, think things through but don't let on that you're doing it.
-dakarian: You also did a good job at thinking things through. I think the problem is that you put too much stock in what other people were saying. You listened to me and webadict, even though IIRC both of us manipulated the facts.
-ToonyMan: Your clever ruse (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Fong%27s_Gambit) at the beginning caught me. I don't understand why you focused on eduren and webadict. If you tried to talk more rather than focusing on the actual mechanics of the game, then I think your survival rate would go up.
-Org: You've improved your play style, since you didn't exhibit your tell in this game. Why didn't you vote, man? That alone probably would have kept you alive until day two, at least.
-eduren: You did well defending yourself, when you did defend yourself. I think if you were more active, you would not have been voted so much. Try to start bandwagons more instead of joining them, and think about why you suspect people before you say that you suspect them. In short, play a more cerebral game and a less visceral game.
-Jim Groovester: Don't claim Doctor. It's suicide. Your instincts were good, but you did not do a good job following up on them. You would have enjoyed more success if you relied more on logic and evidence, rather than emotional appeals.
-webadict: Why did you lie about being Doctor? You completely burned the bridge for a Cop claim when you did that. If you had stuck with the "I might be Cop" story then I'd have been too scared to move off Vector on Day Two. Good job posturing, either way.
-Vector: Your plans were way better than mine and your defense was superb, but you gave yourself away a couple of times. I think you have the potential to become a very dangerous scum player.
-Kashyyk: You were absent at first, and then you jumped on the eduren bandwagon, which contradicted our earlier plan. I think we were lucky that everyone was tired on Day Three.
-Free Beer: My ambusher skill has increased. It is now High Master. The only person who seriously suspected me was Jim Groovester, and he only did so for the sake of suspecting me. As Meph could testify, I was probably the most paranoid player present. I had all the bases covered. My defense was ironclad. My problem was that I sucked at planning and tended to get in the way of Vector's better ideas. I also relied completely on the mafia wiki, even after it was demonstrated to be wrong (for example, I was led to believe that Jim was Cop, not Doctor).
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Psh, if I lied about being Cop, there'd be no point. I don't wanna lie about that, and I'm glad I didn't. No townie needs to lie about that, but it's good to have it out there anyway.
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My clever russ I thought was for webadict and eduren, I didn't even notice you I think. ;D
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And here I go and find out Vector really was mafia. Thanks a lot dakarian.
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Personally, I wouldn't have another beginners mafia. This was anything but 'beginners' and was probably harder then most paranormal games :D
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Damn hard, webadict lost.
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Damn hard, webadict lost.
I blame dakarian, for letting me not lynch who I wanted to initially: That Vector.
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Personally, I wouldn't have another beginners mafia. This was anything but 'beginners' and was probably harder then most paranormal games :D
If I'm not mistaken, most of the players were virgins to forum mafia, but had played a few live games.
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Personally, I wouldn't have another beginners mafia. This was anything but 'beginners' and was probably harder then most paranormal games :D
I thought it served its purpose quite well. It introduced new blood to the mafia games. I would support a Beginners II.
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I meant beginners as in easy, that this wasn't suited for first-timers.
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Im pretty sure nobody wanted it to be easy. I think its great to start playing with a really tough and analytical game.
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"Ok, new recruits. Instead of training you guys to be strong warriors we're going to strap bombs to you and make you run at the enemies screaming. Any questions?"
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Personally, I wouldn't have another beginners mafia. This was anything but 'beginners' and was probably harder then most paranormal games :D
I think that the lack of a cop really contributed to that: Nobody could come out and say "They are scum" or "They are town", because nobody had any way to know. A cop investigating Vector N1 (and he was an obvious target for that) would have cut away most of the drama and likely turned D2 into a quick Vector-lynch. Instead, there was a lot of debate, analysis, and pleas for mercy, which (from the outside) seemed to really contribute to everyone's fun.
With luck, these will start introducing a new batch of people who aren't afraid to really dig in and figure things out from behavior alone.
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I'd just like everyone to know that this only lends credit to my theory that states if I say "So-and-so" is scum, they are scum. This only works for the first person though.
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I am a delayer. webadict is scum.
Muahahah.
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I am a delayer. webadict is scum.
Muahahah.
Too bad you got roleblocked :P
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I've been following this thread since it started, just to see how things turned out and I have to say WOW! You guys really can spew some amazing walls of text! ;D
Still, I look forward to seeing all of the new people in other mafias around the boards.
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Im pretty sure nobody wanted it to be easy. I think its great to start playing with a really tough and analytical game.
This game is a good candidate for the hardest mafia on the forum (judging by post count, assuming post count is an accurate metric for the amount of thinking that was done). There are a lot of comparable ones, but none with so few players.
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Goddammit you two were dirty, sneaky bastards. I was completely fooled, right up until my demise. And even then, Vector still evaded all my suspicion. Great job, mafiosos.
Uggh, I don't think I can play another one of these. It was way too stressful. Beginner's Mafia my ass, this thing kept me up all night every night worrying to death. If it wasn't webadict jumping down my throat it was dakarian jumping down my throat ALL FUCKING DAY LONG YOU FUCKING ASSWIPE to Free Beer jumping down my throat, marginalizing all my arguments, accusing me of being incoherent, etc. etc., and nobody listening to me because I was top scum pick. Ick.
Not again. Are other mafias this stressful? If they are, I'm staying away from them with a twenty foot pole.
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You pulled what we call a "ToonyMan".
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Goddammit you two were dirty, sneaky bastards. I was completely fooled, right up until my demise. And even then, Vector still evaded all my suspicion. Great job, mafiosos.
Uggh, I don't think I can play another one of these. It was way too stressful. Beginner's Mafia my ass, this thing kept me up all night every night worrying to death. If it wasn't webadict jumping down my throat it was dakarian jumping down my throat ALL FUCKING DAY LONG YOU FUCKING ASSWIPE to Free Beer jumping down my throat, marginalizing all my arguments, accusing me of being incoherent, etc. etc., and nobody listening to me because I was top scum pick. Ick.
Not again. Are other mafias this stressful? If they are, I'm staying away from them with a twenty foot pole.
Me? Jumping down your throat? You wish.
I wonder what would've happened had people listened to me...?
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You would of lynched all the town. D:
EDIT: Wait, nevermind you already did.
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Me? Jumping down your throat? You wish.
I wonder what would've happened had people listened to me...?
Yeah, in comparison with Free Beer's and dakarian's attacks, they were pretty light. Mostly insults aimed at me in your defense. Getting insulted by a (relative) stranger still bugs me, though.
Day 2 was too damn long. It should not have been as long as it was. Four, almost five, real life days of suspicion and accusations to agonize over and defend against and second guess was not helpful to the town.
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Each day there was a new lynch suspect.
Wait, did town even once have a majority of votes on a mafia member?
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Each day there was a new lynch suspect.
Wait, did town even once have a majority of votes on a mafia member?
No, because no one would let me lynch Vector.
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Oh, hee, I remember that. I sorta defended Vector from you didn't I? :P
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Oh, hee, I remember that. I sorta defended Vector from you didn't I? :P
Everyone did. I mean, sure, let's not trust the pro on this one. He couldn't spot a scum from a mile away. Now, I'm going to make sure I push people's lynches when I KNOW they're scum. It's when you guys made me second-guess that I figured everyone must be right.
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Not again. Are other mafias this stressful? If they are, I'm staying away from them with a twenty foot pole.
No usually. At least, not for most people (chaoticjosh gets pretty stressed out a lot of games). But the presence of more power roles tends to give people a lot more information, so there tends to be less of the hiding and drama that this game had and more simple misdirection and power role use.
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Someone said they wanted to know why I disagreed with Webadict about his pairing.
My reasoning is because to me, it seemed Towny to challenge him and give my reasons. Although, if you guys thought it looked scumy, I won't do it again.
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Someone said they wanted to know why I disagreed with Webadict about his pairing.
My reasoning is because to me, it seemed Towny to challenge him and give my reasons. Although, if you guys thought it looked scumy, I won't do it again.
It wasn't so much that it looked scummy, it was that it didn't seem (to me) to look scummy to agree with Webadict there, and just going with that pairing would have avoided the suspicion on Free Beer that followed. You, webadict, Free Beer, and possibly Dakarian vote Eduren, Eduren dies, game over. For the day, you'd be able to hide behind agreeing with webadict (who Vector had declared probably town D2), and by the time Eduren flipped town you would have already won.
That bit that triggered suspicions of scum was
Although Webadict, you are right about not discounting me from the possible mafia ranks, just because everyone who is alive attacked Vector/Me at some point.I mean, if I was scum I would do exactly that.
Which you were, and you were doing exactly that, but calling attention to it like that is suspicious.
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Okay, I'll remember that if I'm ever Scum again.
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This mafia really was deeply tiring, and it didn't help that nothing I could use worked out.
About Day 2, when I struck my attack on Vector/Jim I got thrown off by two things really:
1. Jim and Vector's defense. Vector's Mafia chat is right: I do look at appeals to push me back. I said that I just want to see someone crack one way or another. Jim's reply after my post failed that while Vector appealed well. It's what lead me to Jim over Vector
2. Web's dislike of me. I listened to you enough to aim at Vector at first, but it's hard to join you completely when I'm the second target. I then paniced thinking "If Vector turns up town Web will kill me, and we'll lose". When Free threw that barb to go after Jim, I jumped for it. I trusted your judgement as far as finding scum mostly.. but the target of me (proving you were wrong on one idea) along with the thought that YOU could be scum AND the odd defense of Jim..ugg.
In the end, though, it seems that we had a good few people who were very much in the spotlight-Toony, Jim, Web, and me-and we just ate each other. In fact, we ended up canceling each other out: Web accused Vector and me, I accused Vector and Jim, Toony (based on dead chat) thought Free Beer and Web. We ended up butting heads with each other and falling into each other's radar.
As for my Bet.. it was nervewracking.. a thrill.. and something I DON'T recommend anyone do. :P
Sidenote: Jim, Vector had it right: I would've pulled my bet from you if you appealed to me instead of accused me. It was the 'accuse, but don't vote' that got me to attack so harshly.
Fun game overall. I HATE having to be away on second shifts, since that's when most of the action is. It makes me afraid to join another one. I do wonder if another 'simple' game can show up though: without many roles it makes for VERY interesting situations and makes a nice counterpoint to Para.
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Just try to lay off on the walls of text Dakarian, I don't think I've ever read one of your posts in it's entirety.
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Wish I could say I'll try. I've spent just about 10 years trying to tone down my posts. I've just about given up. I write essays more often than I write anything else. I'm not much better in person once you can get past my shyness and give me something to babble about.
If it helps, I'll make sure to leave a summary at the bottom that plops down the meat and potatoes.
Meanwhile:
You... you're stupid, but I think you're town, just like Org. It's still suspicious of you, but only an arrogant braggart with a messiah complex would start such a stupid gamble.
Call me crazy but it's my favorite quote and sits about as high as when I nearly got myself lynched for doing an 'evil looking' smiley while saying "Hi guys!" for my opening post. :D
YAY, I can edit again.... just wanted to say that I'm highly tempted of sigging the second part of that.
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Dakarian, you wouldn't mind doing some of my homework essays sometime would you? ;)
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It'd be late. I've literally written down an over 750 word post in a forum while ignoring a 300 word homework assignment. It kept happening till I did a word count on my average post and realize how silly it is.
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I'm back from my trip.
This was an interesting game to read.
I'll read what I missed and write my comments. Probably tomorrow because I have some other stuff to do first.
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"TOoNeymAn sUx dOooOds."
Yeah yeah Alexhans.
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Your day 1 actions did bring you a batch of suspicions. However, you were much better in Day 2. That, coupled with knowledge of your personality meant you shouldn't have been lynched that day. I'll note that the final blow to you was done by Mafioso Free Beer so you were technically scum killed rather than being accused of being scum.
@ Jim
Toony has a point with that. Myself I deem it 'acting a Kook'. Mafia isn't always stressful (note that the vets are deeming this one of the hardest games played on these forums with insane handling by the mafia), but playing town leaves a very odd balance.
@ both
Part of being town isn't just hunting scum, but also making yourself LOOK pro-town. The idea is that you want to hunt for the mafia while making sure the town doesn't have a reason to think YOU are mafia. It's less to keep yourself alive and more the fact that getting lynched is one step closer to losing.
YOU know you're town, but the town doesn't know and CANNOT assume you are. Thus they will be suspicious of you (and everyone else) day 1 and watching for ScumTells. Learn about what makes a townie look like a townie and a mafia look like a mafia, then make SURE you do as little of the latter as possible. A few examples:
Pro-town: Active, honest, risk taking, aggressive, and paranoid (in a "liquored up and shooting everything that moves" way)
Anti-town: Passive, defensive, confusing, bandwagonny, and self-serving
When left alone you are out to kill. When accused, you answer questions and focus more on making your kill. Try to avoid OMGUS votes (aka. Accusing your accuser) unless you have GOOD evidence against you. To put it another way: if they DIDN'T accuse you, would you think they are scum? If not, don't attack.
Note: Eduren and Web were Toony's biggest accusers while I was Jim's and all were town. Free Beer mearly slipped in just enough to tug the town towards town lynches and acted like "just another secondary character". The mafia wasn't the one trying hard to kill you.. they were the one whispering into everyone's ear to do just that.
Sidenote: Jim, your near death could also be marked as a scum kill. It was Free Beer that suggested that I aim at you instead of Vector and I took the bait.
Summary:
It's not so much "toonyman sux doods" as it is "we were all played like fiddles".
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Heh, Free Beer did well in that game. I can tell that he will become a very good mafia player. With me, I just acted the same as I always do and it seemed to help.
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For any of the new players: Check out Paranormal Round 9 (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=40671.0). Sign ups are now. ;D
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MEh... I never came around to read the end of this game...
Maybe I will, sometime.
The dead chat shows my views about ignoring a waggon (that was already a lynch) because of WIFOM. Not good.
it also talks about proposing a self lynch to lynch someone else. Always bad because you may be wrong about that person and that will only cause 2 town deaths.
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I'd just like everyone to know that this only lends credit to my theory that states if I say "So-and-so" is scum, they are scum. This only works for the first person though.
You were pretty scummy in this game, though.
And your logic to go after vector was never clear.
Also, people don't have to prove they are town. YOU have to prove they are scum.
Uggh, I don't think I can play another one of these. It was way too stressful. Beginner's Mafia my ass, this thing kept me up all night every night worrying to death. If it wasn't webadict jumping down my throat it was dakarian jumping down my throat ALL FUCKING DAY LONG YOU FUCKING ASSWIPE to Free Beer jumping down my throat, marginalizing all my arguments, accusing me of being incoherent, etc. etc., and nobody listening to me because I was top scum pick. Ick.
Not again. Are other mafias this stressful? If they are, I'm staying away from them with a twenty foot pole.
If you want to take it to seriously... yes... depending on the players they may be. The trick is to remember that it is a game.
Things I recall.
Org lynch was a good lynch because Org was totally anti-town, lurker and never made a case. If he is a townie it's better to get rid of that kind of person early.
Toonyman played recklessly but he still had motives, apparently. There comes the experience of being able to read him or not based on how he posts and acts.
Webadict's agressiveness as an IC is not tolerable in my opinion.
Each day there was a new lynch suspect.
Wait, did town even once have a majority of votes on a mafia member?
No, because no one would let me lynch Vector.
You unvoted. Dont complain about it now.
Also, you guys HAMMERED Vector. In a normal mafia. Once you've got the necessary amount, the player is automatically lynched. HOw could you unvote when he was technically lynch is a mystery to me...
Free beer did what we could call, passive active lurking. He posted, he said things but always to mild and never gained enemies. That way he could fly under the radar for the whole game.
Jim was one of the most town-ish players. I was surprised he wasn't shot before.
Dakarian too, seemed town due to his eagerness to get lynched. It sounded earnest.
Vector acted to mild and laid back. He was genuinely scummy.
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Vector acted to mild and laid back. He was genuinely scummy.
"Mild and laid back?" I was panicking the entire time. Well, whatever... I guess it's what other people see that counts.
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Also, you guys HAMMERED Vector. In a normal mafia. Once you've got the necessary amount, the player is automatically lynched. HOw could you unvote when he was technically lynch is a mystery to me...
Like people have said before, Day 2 was way too long.
Also you missed my analysis :P
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Vector acted to mild and laid back. He was genuinely scummy.
"Mild and laid back?" I was panicking the entire time. Well, whatever... I guess it's what other people see that counts.
What I mean is that you didn't seem too eager to scumhunt.
That was on day 1.
On day 2. You did an awesome job against webadict and won that argument in my opinion. Day 1 was what made me think you were scummy enough for a lynch.
I didn't read day 3. I Dont think I wanna know what happened there...
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Remember, Vector that you had pegged yourself as being 'passive' in your WoT towards me. You called it a playstyle and I took the hook.
Free beer was able to active lurk due to everyone else being so up front and personal. I still find it crazy that he was able to tilt me away from scum and into the Doc that easily. Of course, Web was the one that tilted me towards Vector in the first place. I need to be more steady with my vote..and new way of determining who's guilty and who isn't.
And yes, that'll be the last time I go for the bomb.
Sidenote: Day 3 was simple: we got so worn out over Day 2 that we couldn't see strait. Mix in the fact that we were too busy looking for pairings rather than single members and it was an instant win for mafia.
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Is there going to be another one of these?
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There could be. Depending on how much interest there is.
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I would be strongly interested it, if a version ran when my classes had calmed down (hopefully not too long from now, though I may be being optimistic) and people were willing to have me back.
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And if you limit the number of veteran mafia players.
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I'll be in if I count. I'm like a Village Idiot (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Village_Idiot).
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Sure, im interested.
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I'd volunteer as the IC if people think I'm experienced enough, since it seems like my playing style is a lot less randomly aggressive than webadict's and tends toward analysis without conclusions rather than conclusions without analysis.
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Bah, I would definitely play if Webadict weren't the IC. I just can't handle (his) random pointless attacking and my coursework simultaneously.
Again, if you'll have me back. I realize that after what I pulled, you may not want me to return.
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Again, if you'll have me back. I realize that after what I pulled, you may not want me to return.
Nah, you're fine.
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Again, if you'll have me back. I realize that after what I pulled, you may not want me to return.
Nah, you're fine.
Ah, I didn't mean for stomping on your emotions. I meant for suddenly dropping two Mafia games with little notice.
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Eh, that happens. I only worry about it if it happens too often.
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Eh, that happens. I only worry about it if it happens too often.
Thank you for understanding. I'll make sure it doesn't happen again.
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If you need more people, I'll join as well. I'm still wet behind the ears (especially seeing how my first mafiascum game is going)
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Sounds like there is a good amount of interest. I'm going on vacation next week, but I should have time to start a new round the week after that.
I'll start the sign-up thread on Monday, at least.
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Bah, I would definitely play if Webadict weren't the IC. I just can't handle (his) random pointless attacking and my coursework simultaneously.
Again, if you'll have me back. I realize that after what I pulled, you may not want me to return.
As much I like webadict... I don't think he behaved as a correct IC.
for reference: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Being_a_good_IC
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Sounds like there is a good amount of interest. I'm going on vacation next week, but I should have time to start a new round the week after that.
I'll start the sign-up thread on Monday, at least.
Sorry guys, work just a got a lot more hectic, and I don't think I'll be able to start another Beginner's game anytime too soon.
Someone else is welcome to run one, however.
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If someone decides to do this I can be there to help if necessary.
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I have neever been in aMafia before so I would like to join
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What's required to host one on these forums, other than getting the quicktopic set up for the mafia /dead folks (which I'm playing with now and think I got the hang of)?
Pondering the idea of running the next Beginner's. A beginner host in a beginner's mafia ftw?
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Well, you have to be able to check the topic often enough to answer any rules questions and take vote tallies. I use a spreadsheet to keep track of everything (google docs is awesome), although that's not strictly necessary.
Otherwise, a simple mafia like this is pretty easy. There aren't a lot of power roles to worry about and all of the basic configurations are reasonably balanced.
Just make sure that if you do run one that you get an experienced player to be your IC so that someone can give advice to the newcomers.
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What's required to host one on these forums, other than getting the quicktopic set up for the mafia /dead folks (which I'm playing with now and think I got the hang of)?
Pondering the idea of running the next Beginner's. A beginner host in a beginner's mafia ftw?
This is what I got:
Be clear and consistent with the rules. Consistent is much more important than clear.
Have an idea of how game balance works.
Keep all necessary knowledge at hand, to make sure you don't make stupid mistakes. (Meph recommends a spreadsheet, but I just dump everything in a plain text file)
Try very hard to not accidentally confirm or deny anything when answering a player's questions.
There's some sources at MafiaWiki that teach how to mod, some I recommend:
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Game_Balance
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Modding_Guide_by_Green_Liquid
There's a bunch more, but all that is a real hassle to read as it is.
Also, to distribute roles in an unbiased manner, I suggest a random role distributor. I recommend the one I use:
http://adv-random-gen.sourceforge.net/rand-gen/index.php?gen=mafia
and of course, be active. You're the mod, you need to answer questions and lay down the law when necessary.
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Thanks for the random generator. That'll make things much easier than, say, random.com. I'm also reading the sources now. A good thing is that I'm going to stick to the similar setup as here: 2 mafia, 1 possible Godfather, 1 possible cop, 1 possible doc. Easier than, say, trying to make Religious mafia work.
Spreadsheet.. yah, I'll be using that. Blah, I use one for everything else.
Activity..Only slip there is that from 2pm to 2am est I'm at work. Since there's no hammer I'll be able to set deadlines accordingly.
I guess I'll look into it. Thanks for the advice.
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I find it very helpful to just set deadlines for my schedule and make sure that they're at least 48 hours for a day and 24 hours for a night. That way everyone gets a chance to log in.
I also find that it helps to be specific with deadlines and to give reminders.
So I frequently do something like:
Reminder, day 1 ends at ~5pm Pacific Tuesday. Usually after a vote tally.
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If you'll notice, I've started copying Meph's habits in Weirdo Mafia. Which I think is a good thing.
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How about extensions? I know if the group asks for one then it can be given, but is it by majority? A certain number of active folks? Is it different if there's requests to end the day early?
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The way I've decided to do it is like this:
1 person wants extension: No effect
2 People: 1 hour
3+ people: extend to a much longer time, perhaps a day.
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At some point, you're just going to have to make some rules up for some situation. The worst you can do is confuse everybody, so don't worry so much.
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Alright. I'll give it a go.
You have been warned.
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Dun-dun-duuuuuuuuuuuuuuun
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My stance on deadlines is:
More than half the people request an extension...
You grant a 24 hs one.
And no more.
The end.
Also, once there's a hammer vote... People may talk until the mod locks the topic. But that lynch is set.
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Even the IRC mod program can be dissuaded from auto-lynching if you unvote fast enough Alex!
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I'll ponder about the extensions. Mostly, though, it'll depend on how active everyone is.
As for the Hammer, I'll accept people hammering then requesting to end the day (or if the conversation dies out afterwards). I didn't put "majority lynch" in though so this game, the game goes on even after a 'hammer'.
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Even the IRC mod program can be dissuaded from auto-lynching if you unvote fast enough Alex!
WRONG.
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Then what about those times that I saw it, heh?!
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Then what about those times that I saw it, heh?!
You THOUGHT you saw it.
Bot lag or fake votes.
Once the command is made it goes to a queue where Xylbot picks it up.
There's no overriding it once there's a hammer.
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Well, I still think that you're the only person that likes hammers, and we're better off without them.
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You even got a role in Weirdo Mafia for your troubles.
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Well, I still think that you're the only person that likes hammers, and we're better off without them.
Yeah... because the majority is what matters.... I'm just a rebel seeking to destroy what you have... ::)
I'm talking about balance.
If you want to ignore me (and all the people who have had a lot of experience with mafia in MS) then do so.
But I think it's totally unfair to depend on those who are around whend deadline happens. Scum only has to lay back and come to vote at the last minute to win...
If there's no hammer there's no vote responsability. No fear of waggons.
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You even got a role in Weirdo Mafia for your troubles.
instant daykill if I get there first?
I'm Jack's complete lack of surprise...
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I'm saying the game's balanced just fine without that rule, and it's more fun without it.
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But I think it's totally unfair to depend on those who are around whend deadline happens. Scum only has to lay back and come to vote at the last minute to win...
I'd worry about it more if that ever happened. But the one time I've seen that tactic used it backfired on the scum and cost them the entire game.
I just think we have a very different group of players then MS and that effects the balance quite a bit. So far the lack of a hammer vote doesn't seem to have adversely effected the game any, at least from my perspective.
Maybe you should run a Hammer Mafia game to see what effect that rule has on a Bay12 game?
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no prob.. it's your call...
I'll run a game when I can... It will feature the standard MS rules but it will be a bastard game...
Kodak Mafia... I will run it some day...
some day...
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I... may join. Just to see what the hell is so great about these forum games.
I've been studying the rules of a few more popular mafias, but I haven't actually played one. I'd like to have a go, please.
So the big and bad of this forum have also started out somehow. :P
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*sigh*
I've totally lost my hard-won reputation, haven't I...
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*sigh*
I've totally lost my hard-won reputation, haven't I...
Psh. I managed to call you out as scum on the first Day. I can't say I do that anymore.
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I still suck at mafia!
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I still suck at mafia!
Nah Toony. You just play at a level above us mere mortals.
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I still suck at mafia!
Nah Toony. You just play at a level above us mere mortals.
...Too bad that at high enough level it kinda wraps around...
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I still suck at mafia!
Nah Toony. You just play at a level above us mere mortals.
...Too bad that at high enough level it kinda wraps around...
Overflow errors. You need a higher-bit brain.
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First ever BM on Bay12?
Amazing, it is.
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Wow, that was back in 2009. Amazing how long we've been doing this.
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For a minute, I thought some time warp nonsense was going on when I saw the post before Dariush's was from 2009.