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Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Servant Corps on August 13, 2009, 09:50:07 pm

Title: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Servant Corps on August 13, 2009, 09:50:07 pm
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu), the short story Call of Cthulhu described about the cult that worshipped the Cthulhu.

Quote
One cultist, known as Old Castro, provides the most elaborate information given in Lovecraft's fiction about Cthulhu. The Great Old Ones, according to Castro, had come from the stars to rule the world in ages past.

They were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape...but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R'lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them.

—[16]
Castro points to the "much-discussed couplet" from Abdul Alhazred's Necronomicon:

That is not dead which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even death may die.

—[17]
Castro explains the role of the Cthulhu Cult: When the stars have come right for the Great Old Ones, "some force from outside must serve to liberate their bodies. The spells that preserved Them intact likewise prevented them from making an initial move."[16] At the proper time,

the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from his tomb to revive His subjects and resume his rule of earth....Then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom.

—[18]

According to the Cthulu Cult, Cthulu would actually lead to a brave new world, a world without evil, but with lots of "shouting and killing and revelling", a world of anarchy with no morality whatsoever.

This is very strange. I always saw that if Cthulu was awakened, the world would end. Instead, it seems that it merely changes into a unrecognizable form of violent anarchy.

So the question is this: Is the cult correct? Or is it just a tad mistaken?
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Little on August 13, 2009, 10:38:21 pm
Noting how when an Elder God is summoned, none of the cultists survive, I'd say their more than a tad wrong.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: TheNewerMartianEmperor on August 13, 2009, 11:59:37 pm
Elder gods do not care for humanity. Most of them anyway. The ones who do want to step on us to see what sounds we make.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Luke_Prowler on August 14, 2009, 01:23:01 am
Why can't people worship awesome cults? If there was an actual Imperium Cult, I would be the first to join.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Cthulhu on August 14, 2009, 01:26:25 am
I would join the Tau, simply because I've vowed to meet a Tau in real life and shove my hand into that hole on their face, to see how deep it is.

For science, you see.  Also, the Imperium is like the worst place to live ever.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Luke_Prowler on August 14, 2009, 01:30:34 am
I'd say that the Warp is worse place to live ever. The imperium takes a close 3rd
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Cthulhu on August 14, 2009, 01:31:30 am
The warp is cool if you're a Slaaneshi.  Cocaine and parties forever.

Anyway, what's the second in your book?
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: TheNewerMartianEmperor on August 14, 2009, 01:37:28 am
Eye of terror, or possibly ork places.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Luke_Prowler on August 14, 2009, 01:50:55 am
An Eye of Terror is technicly part of the Warp. my 2nd would be any active battlefield.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Cthulhu on August 14, 2009, 02:28:38 am
On topic:

Yeah, Cthulhu's return would herald a new age that isn't necessarily "evil", but I doubt a world completely consumed by an orgy of violence and hedonism is going to last very long.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Kagus on August 14, 2009, 02:56:23 am
You might be surprised.  Sure, there's the initial plunge, but once the first shock has worn off it would probably be a rather acceptable place to be.  A lot of modern day laws and morals are just F'ed up the A to the point of being stupid, a more "basal" system might actually do us some good.

And anyone who's ever met anyone else will know that killing has its time and its place, just like everything else.


And yeah, in the event of universal Warhammerism, I'd probably run straight for the T'au.  Sure, that sterilization thing sounds a bit nasty, but look at your options...  If you join the guard, your commanding officer will shoot you for not marching fast enough or shooting accurately enough.  If you hook up with chaos, your innards will urgently be required for an important ritual.  If you try and make a break for it, the Orks will turn your skull into a finger puppet.  No contest.

I suppose you could go to the Necrons and turn yourself into a pariah, but really...   I mean, really.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Muz on August 14, 2009, 05:32:07 am
Uh oh, another religion bashing thread.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 14, 2009, 06:52:46 am
Quote
Then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil

(as in, before the rise of the GOOs)
I think that part is significant. As in, by the time the GOOs rise, human beings practically qualify as honorific GOOs.

  The abolition of good and evil also sort of fits with the old charge of antinomianism  (http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/heresy/antinomianism/ Dont worry, it's SFW). There they claim that Rasputin was an adherent of that doctrine. I doubt the factuality of that statement, but coincidentally, in the Hellboy movie Rasputin is a worshipper of a Cthulhu like being.
Quote
RA RA RASPUTIN
Lover of the Russian queen
There was a cat that really was gone
RA RA RASPUTIN
Russia's greatest love machine
It was a shame how he carried on


Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Leafsnail on August 14, 2009, 07:11:38 am
I thought Cthulu would destroy everything if he returned.  I need to find that fake tract...
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: JoshuaFH on August 14, 2009, 07:38:32 am
Cthulhu? As in H.P. Lovecraft? Didn't he make it pretty clear that NOONE knew what the hell Cthulhu wanted? It's been a while since I've read his stories, so forgive me if my statement's a bit false.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Vester on August 14, 2009, 07:44:09 am
Yeah, I thought the whole point of the Elder Things was that their goals and needs barely concerned us at all.

Also, Cthulhu, at least in the stories I've read, is an extremely large, extremely powerful being, but by no means the world-ender.

And besides, he's fairly useless-

Vester cancels post: devoured by Elder God.
Vester has been struck down.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Davion on August 14, 2009, 09:13:02 am
I am of the opinion that the idea of violent anarchy is there simply to tempt the cultists into awakening him, then once he is awakened he'll devour the cultists and then set about doing whatever it is he really wants to do. I imagine probably going about rebuilding the empire he had millions of years ago and enslaving humanity or something.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: TheNewerMartianEmperor on August 14, 2009, 11:16:12 am
Or maybe just get up, be confused for a moment, and fly off into space.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Luke_Prowler on August 14, 2009, 11:37:25 am
Or maybe he'll die from air pollution.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Chutney on August 14, 2009, 04:09:32 pm
Considering he don't need to breathe, and him and all his kin are partially 4th dimensional beings...

All the Xothians want is this planet for whatever reason. They don't want anything else. That's why the fought the war with the Elder things billions of years ago (they won, of course). They don't want any of the Elder Things messy experiments (us, the shoggoths, most other life).

Also: Independently of his own goals, the real Great Old Ones (for Cthulhu is only a cousin/high priest. It's unclear) dwell within R'lyeh and he will awaken them when he awakens, and they'll do whatever they do.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: WorkerDrone on August 15, 2009, 06:59:01 am
Yeah, exactly, I was always under the impression that these cults had entirely no idea what they were doing, and that Cthulhu was really just a watcher for when the time was 'right', he'd wake the Great Old Ones, and then whatever happened.

None of this is real of course, just speculating fiction, though it depends on who you asked here. One group of people will see my post and agree and tell me to shut up for pointing out the obvious. Another group will say they really believe that Cthulhu who dwells in the deep will awaken and do *SOMETHING*, and a smaller group will actually think all of that Lovecraft stuff is real.

Not that the last group would be unwanted. I'd LOVE to meet a Cthulhu cultist, provided they didn't try and sacrifice me.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: TheNewerMartianEmperor on August 15, 2009, 07:06:27 am
That whole thing with the Xothians was not made by Lovecraft, and flies in the face of the point he was trying to make in the first place: That we are small, insignificant insects in a cold, uncaring universe with things that could not care less about us or our tiny little blue marble all around us.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Vester on August 15, 2009, 07:14:03 am
(I know I was devoured, and should therefore not be posting, but...)

All I know about Cthulhu comes from memes and Wikipedia. :-[

But in general, the theme of apathetic universe is what it was supposed to be, right?
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: JoshuaFH on August 15, 2009, 07:15:50 am
I don't know about you guys, but I'm a bloopwatcher:

http://www.bloopwatch.org/thebloop.html
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: TheNewerMartianEmperor on August 15, 2009, 07:21:13 am
Hmmm.... Mysterious.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 15, 2009, 07:38:47 am
Quote
But in general, the theme of apathetic universe is what it was supposed to be, right?
Yeah, in Lovecraft's stories. An apathethic universe, and human beings living in an ever-decaying civilization that is all that keeps them shielded from the chaos and the madness. Thus, Lovecraft stories always end either badly or very badly, and his characters tend to kill themselves to spare themselves the horror.


Not so Derleth. He saw it as a regular good vs evil theme. So his take kind of rapes the original. Besides, it constraints the story


For the record, I do prefer Lovecraft. I do think he is being hyped. Sometime in the last few years the internet memetics took hold of this much neglected writer, and now we have the adjetive "lovecraftian" popping up every now and then, and people drooling about anything which vaguely attempts to emulate him. Take the goddamn "Zalgo" meme in /b/. Most of it sucks, but nonetheless people follow it because it's "lovecraftian". And thus, just like Anne Rice (and later Stephanie Meyer) ruined vampires, and just like all those "zombie" movies and books ruined zombies, the lovecraft-wannabes are abusing the theme.

Nevertheless, despite the hype, Lovecraft remains an influence in the horror genre, and often horror novels, or movies, or videogames do benefit from subtle homages. The key is in keeping them subtle (if possible) and of quality.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: TheNewerMartianEmperor on August 15, 2009, 07:46:00 am
Eternal darkness is a good example of an emulation of his style. You know this because in the very best ending, the cosmic horror wins, but at least it's the one that is sealed away, almost completely depowered.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 15, 2009, 07:49:34 am
BTW: somewhat on topic, or at least related to my former post. When looking for the name of the writer of Twilight, I went into ED, and found this image. (SFW, but spoiled just in case)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've been crying with laughter for five minutes now
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Chutney on August 15, 2009, 10:34:06 am
Not that the last group would be unwanted. I'd LOVE to meet a Cthulhu cultist, provided they didn't try and sacrifice me.
'sup lol

Quote
That whole thing with the Xothians was not made by Lovecraft, and flies in the face of the point he was trying to make in the first place: That we are small, insignificant insects in a cold, uncaring universe with things that could not care less about us or our tiny little blue marble all around us.
What part? In The Mountains of Madness detail a war between the Elder Things and the Starspawn(Xothians). We're still meaningless, luckily.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: CJ1145 on August 15, 2009, 10:54:36 am
I don't know about you guys, but I'm a bloopwatcher:

http://www.bloopwatch.org/thebloop.html

Maybe this is a tad ironic, but I pray at night that it's some sort of Lovecraftian horror-beast. Or Godzilla. I fucking love Godzilla.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Cthulhu on August 15, 2009, 11:01:03 am
Now, I've read me some Lovecraft, but I have never heard the word "Xothian" before now.

Is this something some later writer made up?  I got irritated when people like Derleth started giving the Great Old Ones and outer gods familial relationships.

Too human, not scary anymore.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Davion on August 15, 2009, 11:14:06 am
I've never heard of Xothian before, either

Edit: Looks like Xoth (which is apparently the binary star where Cthulhu came from) was featured in the following stories, "The Thing in the Pit" Carter; "Zoth-Ommog", Carter; "The Transition of Titus Crow" Lumley; "The Family Tree of the Gods" Smith.

So yeah, I guess from other writers.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 15, 2009, 11:15:04 am
Quote
  I got irritated when people like Derleth started giving the Great Old Ones and outer gods familial relationships.

you're not alone in that.

Derleth's notions of "good gods vs evil gods" were rather boring, as well.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Chutney on August 16, 2009, 11:09:24 am
I erred in referring to them as Xothians. I thought the name would be vaguely more alien but then I realized that Starspawn is cooler on every level :(.

Also the only Cthulhu Mythos I will ever read is Lovecraft's stuff. Screw later authors!!
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: DJ on August 16, 2009, 11:55:47 am
I hate it when writers try to continue series written by other writers. It's just glorified fanfiction, and it tends to be about as good as your average fanfiction available on internet.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 16, 2009, 12:09:19 pm
Quote
I hate it when writers try to continue series written by other writers. It's just glorified fanfiction, and it tends to be about as good as your average fanfiction available on internet.

Yeah, I hated Kevin J Anderson's Dune books as well.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Vester on August 16, 2009, 04:29:53 pm
And I can't help but wonder what Eoin Colfer will do to the Hitchhiker series. (Heard he's continuing it.)
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: qwertyuiopas on August 16, 2009, 05:18:38 pm
Probably start off good but veer away from the One True PAth That Doug Would Have Chosen.

Like this:
Code: [Select]
book5
|-|
|-|
|-|
|--\
|---\
|-|\-\
|-| \-\_     death and failure
|-|  \_-\____/-/
|-|    \______/
|-|
|-|
What book 6 should be like
|-|
VV to book 7
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Chutney on August 16, 2009, 07:44:27 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

How can there be more Hitchhiker's books? How can it be a Hitchhiker story without the characters...
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 16, 2009, 09:29:12 pm
Probably start off good but veer away from the One True PAth That Doug Would Have Chosen.

Like this:
Code: [Select]
book5
|-|
|-|
|-|
|--\
|---\
|-|\-\
|-| \-\_     death and failure
|-|  \_-\____/-/
|-|    \______/
|-|
|-|
What book 6 should be like
|-|
VV to book 7


Obviously, the time continuum has been disrupted creating this new temporal event sequence resulting in this alternate reality.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: Vester on August 16, 2009, 10:47:37 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

How can there be more Hitchhiker's books? How can it be a Hitchhiker story without the characters...

Speaking of the Guide 2.0, I got serious chills down my spine when I realized that the thing was basically God.

I always thought that whatever Douglas Adams would have done (he did plan to 'fix' what he did in book six, after all) would involve an asspull of tremendous, universal proportions, which Eoin Colfer might not be able to do.

Or mucking around in the plural sectors again?
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: shadow_archmagi on August 17, 2009, 11:19:42 pm
Quote
I hate it when writers try to continue series written by other writers. It's just glorified fanfiction, and it tends to be about as good as your average fanfiction available on internet.

Yeah, I hated Kevin J Anderson's Dune books as well.

Wasn't he working with the younger Herbert in a dual-authoring? As in "I knew the original author better than anyone else and I have access to all his notes"??
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: ChairmanPoo on August 18, 2009, 01:50:14 am
sure he was. And they claim to have some magical notes from Herbert too. More than that, they claim that they KEEP FINDING notes around in secret safeboxes in banks, and stuff.
Look, I can't say whether they are writing this junk together or only one of them is doing so. Nor does it matter too much. As for those supposed secret notes that they had found... let's just say that I am skeptical about the claim, and I am hardly alone in this.
All we can say for sure is that the "new" Dune books are not at all like the old ones. They don't just read like fanfiction, but like BAD fanfiction.
Title: Re: The Cthulu Cult
Post by: corvvs on August 18, 2009, 01:58:54 am

All I know about Cthulhu comes from memes and Wikipedia. :-[

all Lovecraft's stories are old enough to be public domain, so read up!
http://www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft

Well-known:
At the Mountains of Madness
The Shadow Over Innsmouth
Dagon
The Call of Cthulhu
The Dunwich Horror
The Shadow Out of Time
The Case of Charles Dexter Ward (man, this one is long)

Dream-Cycle stories (or at least stories which seem to take place in the same alternate dimension - probably not an exhaustive list):
The Silver Key
The Cats of Ulthar
The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath
The Quest of Iranon
Ex Oblivione (very short, probably the nascence of the Dream Cycle works; a prelude)

Recommended Miscellaneous:
The Colour Out of Space
The Whisperer in Darkness
Pickman's Model
The Nameless City
The Rats in the Walls

Some of them are varying quality, but mostly decent stuff. He did a few short essays early in his career that don't really tell any sort of story, they just set a mood - those can be cool if you can get your mind to appreciate the scene and stop waiting for the plot. His writing style is pretty distinct, making it easy to tell when somebody's making a parody of him.