Yep, let us have a system like in the UK where it takes MONTHS to get simple procedures done. Let us have a system where instead of healthcare being 1/6 of the economy it becomes 5/6 of the economy. I am not a lawmaker nor I am an educated citizen, but to nationalize healthcare is not a good idea. There is a healthcare system in the state of Mass. which resembles the bill they are trying to pass. It is doing terrible last I heard. I am not opposed to healthcare reform, but this bill puts the government in a position where it shouldn't be in. You have canadian citizens waiting 7-8 hours to get a physical and months for surgery. I have seen articles where canadians jump the border to get their procedures done here in the US.
Why are they in such a rush to pass it? It took the Obama family like 8 months to figure out what kind of dog they wanted but they want to push this bill into law in less than 3 months?! It should take them years of debating to get this thing right.
National healthcare no. Healthcare reform yes. It has nothing to do with being afraid of change, but the only examples of national healthcare that are in use have not worked.
The problem is that the debate has been clouded by illegitimate objections and illegitimate reasons posed in response. And it's starting to get kind of scary.
Posted by: Nilocy
Posted by: sonerohi
Posted by: Jualin
Posted by: Taniec
Posted by: Captain Hat
Just who is left among the major Republican politicians these days? There are some senators and a couple governers, a few former presidential candidates and presidents, and that seems to be it.
Just who is left among the major Republican politicians these days? There are some senators and a couple governers, a few former presidential candidates and presidents, and that seems to be it.
Exactly. What's with socialism? Is it, what, intrinsically evil, or something?
Socialism requires people to be interdependent and socially responsible for strangers, which Americans hate. There's a deep-seated American need to be independent from others in many ways and especially not to be picking up the bill for other people, especially if it's for some bad choice another person made.Not really. I know a lot of people who aren't like that. In fact, that's really a more right-wing viewpoint. Just look at what party is in the majority in the government and why.
You say that like America is the only country in the world where people don't give a crap about each other.
Oh God dammit, I said I wouldn't post here again...
This thread is making me sick.
And so we should just roll with it even though it's a bad way of going about things in this particular case?
I tend to favour private healthcare simply because it will provide better service than the NHS
This thread is making me sick. This thread is making me happy I don't live in the US. This thread is making me unhappy that some people I care about (Toady, many of you, some other peaple at internet forums, artist making webocis I enjoy, but still) do live in the US. :(
Right, because the United States is the worst country in the world. Every citizen is just an ignorant fool with the IQ of a chimp. I think we would all agree the world would be better place if our country just got nuked off the face of the earth; Civilization IV style.Congratulations! You just proved yourself right!
At Taniec: Your figures are wrong, britain spends about 8% of its GDP on healthcare, and america spends 16%. Go figure, prescriptions (for most drugs at the pharmacy) only cost £4 per item.
\At Taniec: Your figures are wrong, britain spends about 8% of its GDP on healthcare, and america spends 16%. Go figure, prescriptions (for most drugs at the pharmacy) only cost £4 per item.
Gotcha, misread something then. Anyway I'm still not convinced but meh, what happens, happens.
2. In a free market, competition lowers prices. How can private companies compete with a government plan? Obama may say that people can keep their current policy if they like it under the new plan, but realistically people will be drawn to the considerably cheaper option. For those who want to keep their plan it may not be possible because costs will actually rise for the private companies just trying to stay in business. The reason costs won't go down for the private companies is because the government is running a non-profit organization. Private companies will now have to increase premiums just to stay afloat from losing all their clients. Eventually everyone will turn to the public option and there goes any private option. As I said in previous posts I am FOR healthcare reform but AGAINST a public option. What is next? Car insurance, life insurance?
5. You have around 45 million uninsured people in the United States. 37 mil are of working age. 38% of those working can actually afford it but choose not to get it so they can buy whatever else with that money. Many college grads don't get insurance because they are young, generally healthy, and use the money for other things. 9.7 mil are not U.S citizens. That leaves us with roughly 21 mil not insured. A quarter of uninsured have to option of medicare or medicaid. Now you have 10 million people who REALLY can't afford health insurance. Is the public option the best way to adress those 10 million people? I have no idea to be honest with you.
6. They say of the $600 billion it would cost for public care most of it would just be cutting cost of uncessary care. I didn't know people would go see a doctor for no reason. How else they gonna do it if it isn't enough? Raise taxes. If costs go out of control expect a tax increase from the poor and all the way to the rich. Obama kind of promised no new taxes during his campaign. Whoops.
Its a sad day when you see the leaders of the free world not listening to their own people.
What I find most interesting/sad is how effective lying is.
Introducing public health care into the American health care system is like using a formula-1 race car on a dirt trail. It doesn't work because the groundwork and the addition just don't fit together. A square peg in a round hole. If you want to make it work, you'll have to do a massive refit of one component so that the other one fits
Actually I cant tell what they mean by "Extension of Authority of special needs plans to restrict enrollment"
It is like it is specifically written to be misinterpretted.
Most likely it works the other way around, and it is supposed to mean keeping certain parts of the system to people who really need them. IE: rehabilitation of some sort, whatnot.
Even those who are for it, you pay for the surgeries of almost 10 million illegals.
The only thing wrong with socialism/communism for america-Exactly. What's with socialism? Is it, what, intrinsically evil, or something?
Nothing is intrinsically wrong with socialism. Some people do equate it to communism, which would be fine usually devolves into dictatorship (or at least that's the popular opinion).
At any rate, to them the idea of anything based on a socialist model in America is like restricting racism on 4chan. It's a matter of principle, and they just want a country to exist in which there are no such systems.
If he were to take all the money that goes to other healthcare programs and combine it into a single public option, then the additional costs may be relatively low. Taxes on highest percent incomes in the country may have to be raised to cover it entirely.The tax increase for just the richest is massive(10%?), this requires middle and lower class taxes as well.
The current American system is a complete disaster. Something more similar to, say, what they have in Canada, would not be perfect and have plenty of problems, but I'd rather have people waiting longer and some people not having access to some non-life-saving procedures, than have massive numbers of the poorest people in the country have NO way to get health care at all.how is the american system a disaster?
Ah, but which politician are you going to believe? The one that has to spend hours explaining how to wind through the bureaucratic jargon to get to the universal care promised, which was partly dismantled anyway in a vain attempt to get his immovable colleagues to sign it? Or the guy who shouts in thirty seconds that your spurious, admittedly uninformed gut assumptions are exactly correct?believe? i'm going to follow the spurious uninformed guy because he's consistent, and conservative, and i don't want the system to pass
believe? i'm going to follow the spurious uninformed guy because he's consistent, and conservative, and i don't want the system to passThat's why we got two terms of Bush, ie. Shit.
Let's see, black man, "Kenyan-born", Muslim-sounding name who spent two years having Republicans, Clintons, and Appalachian rednecks throwing every covert and overt epitaph and stereotype at him, from secret Muslim to angry black man to angry black preacher to palling around with terrorists. They mocked him for going to Harvard, they mocked him for being a community organizer, they mocked him for being too young, they mocked him because his wife showed off her arms, they mocked him for living in Indonesia, they mocked him for writing books. Before he even takes office, he inherits the worst economy since the Great Depression and is immediately blamed for not fixing it, and when he tries, he's blamed for the deficit and for socialism. Conspiracy nuts spend months trying to prove that he's not a citizen and when that fails, they spend weeks chasing him around the country screaming that he wants to kill old people and retarded babies. They carry signs calling him a Muslim Nazi socialist without any hint of irony.
And Glenn Beck is worried he might hate white people.
self-interest>fanatical idealismbelieve? i'm going to follow the spurious uninformed guy because he's consistent, and conservative, and i don't want the system to passThat's why we got two terms of Bush, ie. Shit.
how is the american system a disaster?
Sometimes I really think my country is going downhill fast. Days when I hear people talking like Taniec and eerr are in this thread are such days. It's really rather depressing. Pulling out perfectly benign segments of the bill and just talking about them in a way so as to make it appear deceitful, when the one deceiving is the person talking about the bill rather than the bill itself. There's a lot of crap illegal aliens don't pay for. I doubt health care alone will make it significantly worse - especially given the number of illegals there are estimated to be.
The fact that the republicans can get away with such outrageous lies really bothers me. It's like false advertising. Does that sound right to you?
If the bill did half the things they said it did, it wouldn't be constitutional and wouldn't even have a chance. It does though.
Sometimes I really think my country is going downhill fast. Days when I hear people talking like Taniec and eerr are in this thread are such days. It's really rather depressing. Pulling out perfectly benign segments of the bill and just talking about them in a way so as to make it appear deceitful, when the one deceiving is the person talking about the bill rather than the bill itself. There's a lot of crap illegal aliens don't pay for. I doubt health care alone will make it significantly worse - especially given the number of illegals there are estimated to be.
The fact that the republicans can get away with such outrageous lies really bothers me. It's like false advertising. Does that sound right to you?
If the bill did half the things they said it did, it wouldn't be constitutional and wouldn't even have a chance. It does though.
So I am scum of the nation because I disagree with the bill in question? Republicans lie but democrats don't? This is just unreal. I learned an important life lesson today...never discuss politics ever again in any setting. Here I am pointing stuff out from the bill and citing data which apparently don't mean jack. Even on a forum such as this I would think people would be more civil than to call me a lying republican and I'm the reason this country is going down the moral toilet. What makes you think I'm a republican...just because I don't like the bill? Did you fail to see that I VOTED for Obama on election day who last I checked was a democrat? Here I am trying to discuss what is best for the nation as a whole but the only response I am getting is that my family must be wealthy and I am some right-wing nut who only cares about money, big corporations, and that I don't care about the little man in all of this.
Maybe I shouldn't care at all. I should just blindly listen to what everyone else is saying and not think for myself. This bill will fix everything in health care and be damned how it effects the economy, veterans, and the little man.
Seriously, what am I lying about? All facts I posted I checked with wikipedia, the wall street journal, or other internet articles. I didn't go to shit like FoxNews or CNN for obvious reasons. I went the bill itself and highlited portions of it yet I am still being called a lier and scum of the Earth. Why are eerr and I the bad guys here? Would The Onion be a more reliable source that I should use?
We aren't even discussing the bill anymore, but I have to defend myself from being called a lying republican. Fantastic.
America is going backwards.
Sometimes I really think my country is going downhill fast. Days when I hear people talking like Taniec and eerr are in this thread are such days.
Does anyone get the feeling Taniec is trying to draw attention away from the actual topic and at the same time invalidate his opponents arguments by deliberately interpreting as much as he can as personal insults?
I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.
I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.
The lie about health care that you provided as an example from the supporting side is not one I recall hearing from democratic politicians. I've heard it, but then, I've heard it from just about everyone (except politicians). It is, however, true that they are the usual profit-maximization driven company, and maximizing profits naturally involves reducing expenses. Which in insurance companies involves minimizing payouts to customers. Therefore it will probably be harder to get good insurance for a good price. This is why even insured people can go bankrupt from medical bills.
It is also true that just because one side has lies on it doesn't mean the other side doesn't. However, if the lies from, say, the republicans are more noticed than the other side, then quite clearly those that lie on the republicans are more prominent in their party than those who lie on the democratic side (and by lie I mean spread false information, not stand by).
Exactly. What's with socialism? Is it, what, intrinsically evil, or something?
Nothing is intrinsically wrong with socialism. Some people do equate it to communism, which would be fine usually devolves into dictatorship (or at least that's the popular opinion).
At any rate, to them the idea of anything based on a socialist model in America is like restricting racism on 4chan. It's a matter of principle, and they just want a country to exist in which there are no such systems.
For example, the idea that insurance companies just want to "fuck you" is a lie. If it was true, then they'd be out of business in a heartbeat
Don't we already have our tax money spent on roads all over?
Don't we already have our tax money spent on roads all over?Of course not! If you did, then the illegal immigrants would be able to use them too!
Don't we already have our tax money spent on roads all over?Of course not! If you did, then the illegal immigrants would be able to use them too!
explain again how that's a bad thing.
Barbarossa rolls his detect sarcasm check - Critical Miss!
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Alright, I'm done.
I'm a terribly daft and ignorant person on the subject, so I probably don't know much, but if America were to adopt socialized medicine, wouldn't it also have to adopt very high taxes, like those in other countries?
Iraq
For example, the idea that insurance companies just want to "fuck you" is a lie. If it was true, then they'd be out of business in a heartbeat.
For example, the idea that insurance companies just want to "fuck you" is a lie. If it was true, then they'd be out of business in a heartbeat.
I'll assume you don't know a whole lot about how the health insurance industry, or capitalism in general, works.
Others have explained this as well. But the idea that companies have to play nice and do their best for their customers or they'll be eliminated by competition, is pure fantasy.
We can't stop (insert generic group of people here) from wanting make money.Fixed
Fixed betterWe can't stop everyone except nuns and communists from wanting make money.
I approve.Fixed betterWe can't stop everyone except nuns and communists from wanting make money.
I say: Instant closure of all Health Insurance firms - all people working under them are evaluated. If they are deemed productive, they become part of the nationalized healthcare. Then, the NatHealth is run like a nonprofit. They charge low rates, but also make sure to charge enough to cost us the least amount of money. Here is the problem. Congress is a corrupt and scheming group, directly aimed at gaining votes and money. You don't get votes for closing down companies.
They arn't going out of buisness mostly because, well, there is no "Better" company that people will use.Hilarious... just hilarious...
We can't stop capitalists from wanting make money.
It wasn't, because it was more of a complaint of the general negative attitude than of you in particular.QuoteSometimes I really think my country is going downhill fast. Days when I hear people talking like Taniec and eerr are in this thread are such days.
Right, so this isn't an insult?
Don't you guys in america ever have any completely unbiased arguements? Or is it always the right wing that just starts a massive slagging match