Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jackrabbit on August 20, 2009, 07:10:53 pm

Title: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 20, 2009, 07:10:53 pm
Seems like something interesting to debate, given the amount of clever people here. I have none, and thus shall not take part. I was just wondering what you'd come up with when asked this.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: IndonesiaWarMinister on August 20, 2009, 07:12:08 pm
Intelligence?

Spies?
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Cthulhu on August 20, 2009, 07:12:24 pm
If smartness is water, intelligence is the size of your bucket.  That's what I've grown up believing.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: MrWiggles on August 20, 2009, 07:15:23 pm
Are we using as a intelligence to cover sapient, sentience and self awareness?
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Duke 2.0 on August 20, 2009, 07:22:42 pm
 There are many different configurations of intelligence, smartness, cleverness, IQ, mentality, judgment and wit, but I don't bother with it. To me there is just educated and ignorant, with some little extras like how well one applies said knowledge or how easily somebody can learn specific skills.

 Sure it does not work in all situations, but generally everybody can know whatever they work for.

 And to get rid of this before anybody else makes a post with just this image, thus creating a generally useless post:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Vester on August 20, 2009, 07:27:16 pm
I like to think of "IQ" as a measuring cup, rather than a set amount. IQ by that definition is how intelligent you can become, not necessarily how intelligent you are.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Heron TSG on August 20, 2009, 07:41:19 pm
IQ is actually how intelligent you are based on the average for your age. It is not helpful when comparing people of differing ages.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Vester on August 20, 2009, 07:54:11 pm
Yeah, so I assume the measuring cup gets bigger over time.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Kagus on August 20, 2009, 07:54:26 pm
I've generally considered intelligence to be a measure of how quickly a person can learn (not just memorize) a new concept and then apply it (or, better yet, improve upon it).  I preach this to get away with calling myself intelligent, despite my profound ignorance.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: LegoLord on August 20, 2009, 08:10:23 pm
That sounds more like what I'm about to describe (I originally typed it up 20 minutes ago - internet issues):
Actual intelligence is only a fraction of what makes a great mind, such as those who are widely considered "the smartest" such as Einstein.

Intelligence is merely a synonym with factual knowledge.  Intelligent people can do rather stupid things or not, depending on the other factors.  Some people intelligent enough to design new, powerful weapons thought that their invention would actually put an end to conflict.  Now everyone might be using this weapon, its predecessors now abandoned.

Wisdom is knowledge of . . . well, it's hard to describe.  A man can be wise without intelligence.  I cannot recall what this is from, but I once read the following:  "Wisdom really seems to be just common sense."  Which, thinking about it, is true.  Common sense is surprisingly uncommon.  Paying attention to a text conversation on your cell phone, while driving?  Some intelligent people do that.  Some unintelligent people do that.  People who don't do that are wise - they have their attention on the road, and can see what's coming and avoid it - but they don't necessarily have to have the highest SAT scores (I know people who have high SAT scores, yet text while driving.  Why can't they just talk about who's dating who when they aren't in a deadly fast mass of metal, and not making everyone else on the road nervous?)  Ability to learn (and not just memorize) probably is somewhat related to wisdom.

Then there is creativity.  There are intelligent physicists out there, but so many of them are narrow-minded and probably won't discover anything significant.  They lack the creativity to come up with an idea, determine how to test it, see how it works, to link different - seemingly unrelated - ideas together.  The people who figured out the "basics" that may eventually lead to faster-than-light travel (couple hundred years off, unfortunately) were probably fairly creative.

That seems to be it.  All in all, it seems unfortunate that we can only reliably test intelligence.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Winterbrass on August 20, 2009, 08:51:05 pm
Yeah, so I assume the measuring cup gets bigger over time.
Or changes, at the very minimum.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Zironic on August 20, 2009, 10:28:18 pm
The lack of it is defined in this topic. Intelligence is nothing compared to willingness to work for innovation and change.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Ampersand on August 21, 2009, 01:12:27 am
I'd argue that intelligence is the ability to act on that willingness.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 21, 2009, 01:48:41 am
The lack of it is defined in this topic. Intelligence is nothing compared to willingness to work for innovation and change.

Surely you'd need intelligence for that?
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Sordid on August 21, 2009, 02:00:22 am
I'm partial to this guy (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jeff_hawkins_on_how_brain_science_will_change_computing.html)'s idea that intelligence is not the ability to make decisions but rather to make predictions. As he says, even as you're sitting there you are being intelligent and making predictions, and so you know what word comes at the end of this sentence.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Cthulhu on August 21, 2009, 02:26:57 am
The lack of it is defined in this topic. Intelligence is nothing compared to willingness to work for innovation and change.

Oh man, he's right.  We're all idiots.  The only thing we're allowed to discuss is how to change the world.  Man, we have a lot of irrelevant threads on this board.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 21, 2009, 02:29:10 am
I propose a new kind of cheeto. That should change the world.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Vester on August 21, 2009, 02:34:34 am
Yeah? Thanks to the butterfly effect, my posting this just killed sixty-two people.

EDIT: By which I mean, sure, change is fine. Except when it causes hurricanes.

I don't like hurricanes.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 21, 2009, 03:03:20 am
OHMYGODIJUSTBREATHEDINDUCKINCOVER.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Kagus on August 21, 2009, 03:28:47 am
Okay, Sordid, so what kind of person sees a hidden block of text and immediately -before reading anything else on the page- highlights it to figure out what it says?

Like I just did.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Cthulhu on August 21, 2009, 03:33:04 am
I did that too.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Zironic on August 21, 2009, 03:40:21 am
What I mean is, if you try to define intelligence, you'll find many people significant in history were not 150+ IQ Brainacs. However, People who desire to create positive change and innovation, such as, advances in scientific fields and research, or fighting for social or political change, are almost always considered intelligent. Thus, I am saying, people who innovate are people who see and want to solve problems via unknown methods or slightly adjusted ones, thinking outside of the box and going to into unknown territories. Many smart people can crunch numbers, tell you how to solve known problems, but would be dumb struck if you gave them something no one else has done previously.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 21, 2009, 04:08:25 am
There was this one time where a group of people were given the challenge (team building and all that) to get across a field. Beforehand they were wrapped in plasticine. Everyone around my group was talking about how they could hop or roll or do this and that.

We took of the plasticine. We won. Heh.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Zironic on August 21, 2009, 04:58:14 am
There was this one time where a group of people were given the challenge (team building and all that) to get across a field. Beforehand they were wrapped in plasticine. Everyone around my group was talking about how they could hop or roll or do this and that.

We took of the plasticine. We won. Heh.

Simple solutions to seemingly complex problems? Split an atom! Impossible! Nope, Just surround a sphere of uranium with dynamite. Explosions made by explosions.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: JoshuaFH on August 21, 2009, 05:34:55 am
I don't really think this is a good topic. Heck, I fundamentally hate topics that try to put meaning onto ambiguous and vague ideas.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 21, 2009, 05:42:20 am
Your argument is invalid until you define what delicious really is. 2000 words, due on Monday, no excuses.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Vester on August 21, 2009, 05:45:06 am
Discussion of ambiguities is a good avenue for pedantry, though. ;D
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 21, 2009, 05:50:44 am
Plus I just like seeing the brains in this forum come together.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: JoshuaFH on August 21, 2009, 05:53:06 am
Plus I just like seeing the brains in this forum smash into eachother with great force.

More accurate.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jude on August 21, 2009, 06:02:37 am
Intelligence can't be simplified down to one simple phrase or ability that sums things up. The reason there's so much bickering is because the mind, and intelligence, are composed of all manner of modules that do certain things and have certain functions, and those are going to vary in their effectiveness from person to person. There can't be a valid measurement of "intelligence" because all the things that make up intelligence don't necessarily correlate with each other. If you tried to define intelligence as "verbal, mathematical and spatial reasoning abilities" and then gave a test to me that measured that, your results would be a mess because I suck at math but I'm awesome at verbal and OK at spatial reasoning.

What this tells us is that any attempts to boil intelligence down to "g" or anything else simply and tidy, are doomed to fail. The "theory of multiple intelligences" is on the right track but doesn't go far enough, since there are certainly more than 8 mental modules, or even broad categories of mental modules.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 21, 2009, 06:12:20 am
Plus I just like seeing the brains in this forum smash into each other with great force AND BURN.

More accurate.

More, more accurate.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Armok on August 21, 2009, 06:21:29 am
THis is an intresting topic, but the question is actually somewhat wrongly asked.
There is no objective absolute definition of intelligence corresponding to some physical characteristic, intelligence comes in many forms, and each have many subtypes wich in turn have subtypes and so on in an almost fractal pattern, and on top of it they are highly interconecting, and what people usually mean by "intelegent" is peaple who have a large amaount of most of them.

Some of the most importnant  broad categories are:
- knowledge, raw information, learning
- "CPU speed", how fast and much you can think, how large your working memory is, etc. If you duble you patience and put you in some kind of time bubble were time goes twice as fast you have in effect dubled this. Mesured fairly well by IQ tests.
- something whos name for the moment slip my mind, at medium levels usualy called common sense, made up by things like willpower, rationality, sound priorities, intuition, and the ability to ultilize the other kinds of intelegence properly, and aply them to situations rather than letting them lay idle.
- Metacognition, basicaly how to use the CPU speed and memory efficently, it is the skill and knowledge on how to think better.
- Wisdom, basicaly a grasp on life, reality, morality, and existential issues. It does not neceserly mean you are right at all, the greatest peaple (Not necesrly leaeders, mind you) of most religeons are usualy extremly wise, but an equal % of atheists are as well. Medetation or similar mental states suposedly improve this.
- Experience, having seen what actualy hapened in previus situations is of great help to figuring you what to do in future similar ones. Note that this does not always need to be personal, you can have seen it hapen to somone or even just read it in a history book.
- skill(s), this is the category for types of intelegence that help in a particulart task and can be lerned with practice, and yes many mental skills have to basicaly be seen as intelegence.
- creativity, the ability to randomly come up with new concepts and configurations out of thin air, and determining if they are usefull ones to keep and act upon, or random junk to forget again.

This is just some broad strokes towards general directions, and neither precice nor acurate nor 100% true, just some generalizations that shuld give you a fair idea. It could also be argued that some of these things are causes of intelegence, or results of intelegence, rather than actual intelegence itself.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Emperor_Jonathan on August 21, 2009, 07:15:11 am
Pretty much what Armok said sums up my opinion, however I don't define so many intelligences.

However.

In my opinion an IQ test is an outdated and limited system to measure intelligence, intelligence comes in many forms, not just your "CPU Speed", as Armok puts it. The Theory of Multiple Intelligences, of which I prefer, proposes eight different intelligences to account for a broader range of human potential in children and adults. These are:

Quote
Linguistic intelligence ("word smart"):
Logical-mathematical intelligence ("number/reasoning smart")
Spatial intelligence ("picture smart")
Bodily-Kinesthetic intelligence ("body smart")
Musical intelligence ("music smart")
Interpersonal intelligence ("people smart")
Intrapersonal intelligence ("self smart")
Naturalist intelligence ("nature smart")

I would make a large wall of text but I'm tired.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: bjlong on August 21, 2009, 07:34:21 am
In the fairly-recent past, intelligence was how much knowledge one had. Smartness was how much knowledge one could quickly attain and synthesize.

To put things into perspective, trivia contests test only intelligence. Research takes some intelligence, but a lot more smartness. Groundbreaking ideas require intelligence, smartness, and society being on the cusp of change--such as the technological innovations in use during the American Civil war. General Lee, despite whatever political hoo-ha he was mixed up in, was brilliant because he could see what to change, versus most other Generals, who only thought in terms of charging and retreating. (The same thing could be said of Grant, but his main innovation throwing regiment after regiment at Lee's army, because his men were expendable.)
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Ai Shizuka on August 21, 2009, 08:11:29 am
Can't define intelligence, for there are many kinds of it.

First of all, IQ tests mean absolutely squat, and I generally get >140 scores (I bet a lot of people on this board get high scores).
A high IQ score doesn't mean you understand things that other people don't. You can just elaborate them faster and with a more effective logic "stream". 90 IQ person will still solve the quiz, but in 5x the time and with MUCH more effort.

Now on the real topic. You can have a 190 IQ person, totally handicapped in "daily things" logic.
Real-life example. I work with horses in the Army. A lot of kids (18-22 years old) come in and out of this place for their 1st year of service, so I can observe a lot of different personalities in an unusual working set-up (vast majority of them have never had anything to do with horses). Now on the two "extremes" of personality. You can see the very smart kid with super-high quiz scores, but he's totally fucking challenged in anything manual. After two months he still doesn't know how to saddle a horse, put things all in the wrong places and generally pull off stupid shit like standing 50 cm behind a horse surrounded by flies.
The kid is not stupid, but he's simply unable to put his intelligence in action.

Then there's the opposite. Kid dumb as a brick wall. You think you are talking with a caveman but he surprisingly learns how to do everything in two weeks. Then you can leave him in charge for the week-end and on monday everything's fine, while smart kid n.1 is still trying to figure how to enter a box without crushing himself between the horse and the doorjamb.
This kid will never figure how to solve some logic quiz, but has great "pratical" intelligence for manual work (wich is not necessarily dull or repetitive).

Obviously those two are the extremes and there are all the intermediate personalities. There are people with both brain and manual intelligence (like myself  :D ). But wich one is smarter between these two? I know I can't pick one.

Then there's the culture factor. A person may know a lot of things, read a lot and generally have a good general culture, but can still be totally stupid. Maybe he simply looks smart, but he's just got a very good memory and can quote things he's read 15 years ago.

Common sense. Smart people still do stupid shit. If you did not figure it yet, I consider myself a smart person. But I still drive at 190kmh on the highway, and that's definitely NOT a smart thing to do. I often drink myself to oblivion with my friends and, again, that's not a smart thing to do.

And, finally, there's what in my opinion discerns intelligence from genius. Creativity. The greatest minds in human history have always been smart people with the capacity to put their gift in action on something totally new and original.

Yeah, wall of text and probably multiple grammar/spelling mistakes. Not my first language, sorry about them.
To sum it up, you can't define intelligence. There are many different kinds of it.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: blah28722 on August 21, 2009, 08:36:08 am
Intelligence is an incredibly vague word that doesn't properly define anything.

It's like trying to define "strong", "tough", and "fast".

There's way too many different ways to be smart/intelligent for it to be measured effectively.

Although I'd say intelligence represents book smarts in the scientific area, because it seems to be used a lot for that case.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Muz on August 21, 2009, 11:06:17 am
Well, you can measure strong, tough, fast easily enough. Intelligence is one of the things I'd rather avoid. I mean people have been trying to measure it for ages. IQ, multiple intelligences, level of education, ivy league universities, street smarts, wisdom, language skill. All of these measurement methods have their own really annoying flaws.

I dunno.. from what I've seen, it's sort of like religion. People will interpret it to convince other people of what they want to believe.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: blah28722 on August 21, 2009, 11:13:24 am
Well, you can measure strong, tough, fast easily enough.

It's easy to measure specific versions of these, but it's hard to measure "strong" as a vague concept.

For example, "strong" can be represented by weight lifting (which has like 6 billion versions), mental strength, pain tolerance, discipline, numbers, and others that I can't really think of right now.

"Fast" can be running speed, punching speed, dexterity (say, magicians), and quick thinking.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jreengus on August 21, 2009, 12:46:58 pm
It's already been said but I'll say it again. IQ tests are stupid ways to measure intelligence. I personally score low on them because I can't keep my mind focused. Anyone who has read Terry Pratchet think Leonard of Quirm, My mind jumps about way too much for me to focus on the question. This also tends to screw up my ability to revise for tests, combined with my terrible procrastination and I really annoy teachers. I'll be hailed as on of their smartest students due to my ability to pick up information and concepts incredibly fast, and even carry on those concepts to their logical conclusion without having to be told. But I then go and do badly in the exams.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Zironic on August 21, 2009, 01:54:04 pm
It should be proven though actions not meaningless tests.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Sordid on August 21, 2009, 02:35:40 pm
It's already been said but I'll say it again. IQ tests are stupid ways to measure intelligence. I personally score low on them because I can't keep my mind focused. Anyone who has read Terry Pratchet think Leonard of Quirm, My mind jumps about way too much for me to focus on the question. This also tends to screw up my ability to revise for tests, combined with my terrible procrastination and I really annoy teachers. I'll be hailed as on of their smartest students due to my ability to pick up information and concepts incredibly fast, and even carry on those concepts to their logical conclusion without having to be told. But I then go and do badly in the exams.

That's not how IQ tests work. ;)
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jreengus on August 21, 2009, 02:37:52 pm
They're timed right? The time it takes me to complete the first question if I'd been focused I could have finished the whole thing.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: blah28722 on August 21, 2009, 02:47:36 pm
Their timed right? The time it takes me to complete the first question if I'd been focused I could have finished the whole thing.

The questions take, like, two seconds to answer and it's mostly coming to the logical conclusion of something.

It's not so much a matter of focus as the ability to solve through logic.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jreengus on August 21, 2009, 05:07:07 pm
Well put simply by the time I finish reading the question my mind is already wandering. If I tried one under proper exam conditions I would probably do better as I can focus somewhat ebtter.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jude on August 21, 2009, 05:07:43 pm
Pretty much what Armok said sums up my opinion, however I don't define so many intelligences.

However.

In my opinion an IQ test is an outdated and limited system to measure intelligence, intelligence comes in many forms, not just your "CPU Speed", as Armok puts it. The Theory of Multiple Intelligences, of which I prefer, proposes eight different intelligences to account for a broader range of human potential in children and adults. These are:

Quote
Linguistic intelligence ("word smart"):
Logical-mathematical intelligence ("number/reasoning smart")
Spatial intelligence ("picture smart")
Bodily-Kinesthetic intelligence ("body smart")
Musical intelligence ("music smart")
Interpersonal intelligence ("people smart")
Intrapersonal intelligence ("self smart")
Naturalist intelligence ("nature smart")

I would make a large wall of text but I'm tired.
This is the one I was talking about. As I said, it's going in the right direction but still falls into the trap of trying to lump multiple diverse abilities into a single "intelligence." Unless two abilities ALWAYS covary with each other, they should be considered separate abilities, separate modules, separate intelligences, what have you.

For example, Logical-mathematical intelligence fails on me since I can think plenty logically, but as soon as numbers or equations enter the picture, my brain blanks and I can't do jack.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: LegoLord on August 21, 2009, 07:22:10 pm
Their timed right? The time it takes me to complete the first question if I'd been focused I could have finished the whole thing.

The questions take, like, two seconds to answer and it's mostly coming to the logical conclusion of something.
Wrong!  Often you have to read through articles that are much longer than they need to be, and you can never know just by looking what parts are actually important enough to read.  There are too many of them.  And you can not say that it takes a few seconds to solve a complex and involved algebra equation.  I can do that, but not quickly mostly because I have ADHD and a cognitive processing speed disorder.  The last tiny contributing factor is just normal child/teenage lack of interest (which everyone has).
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: blah28722 on August 21, 2009, 07:58:43 pm
Their timed right? The time it takes me to complete the first question if I'd been focused I could have finished the whole thing.

The questions take, like, two seconds to answer and it's mostly coming to the logical conclusion of something.
Wrong!  Often you have to read through articles that are much longer than they need to be, and you can never know just by looking what parts are actually important enough to read.  There are too many of them.  And you can not say that it takes a few seconds to solve a complex and involved algebra equation.  I can do that, but not quickly mostly because I have ADHD and a cognitive processing speed disorder.  The last tiny contributing factor is just normal child/teenage lack of interest (which everyone has).
Most of the IQ tests I've seen involve questions like:

All dogs run. Jane can run. Therefore:
a) Jane is a dog.
b) All dogs are named Jane.
c) Jane is a dog.
d) None.

What is the fifth vowel in this sentence?

Which of the following pairs do not belong?
a) Dog - Boe
b) Cat - Fish
c) Horse - Hay
d) Fish -Cow

What is the next number of this sequence? 1, 3, 6, 10, 15...

or they would involve pattern-solving skills like:
Finding the pattern that fits in a whited out part of a pattern.
Predicting the shape displayed by a 3d figure after it's been rotated.



IQ tests are supposed to be unbiased in terms of language, so it seems unlikely that an IQ test would involve large amounts of reading.

You might be thinking of aptitude tests like the SAT, which try to measure academic ability.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: LegoLord on August 21, 2009, 08:00:25 pm
Nope.  Definitely IQ tests.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Vester on August 21, 2009, 08:03:02 pm
Those kinds of tests just check reasoning ability. For example, here's one question I remember from my college app a couple of years ago (paraphrased):

Children can never lie. Children say unicorns are real. Therefore:

a) Children are liars
b) Unicorns are real
c) Unicorns are not real

The answer being b), since the question does not define what unicorns, children, reailty, and lying are. They're just terms which form a logical conclusion.

I hated the application tests.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 21, 2009, 09:14:04 pm
I pick

d) The child is stupid.

Because whether or not they're lying, they could be telling the truth about a fantasy they viewed as real. If that is the case:

e) The child is on something and an intervention is called for.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Vester on August 21, 2009, 09:17:45 pm
I actually tried pulling that one (wrote it in the margins of the booklet). Didn't get into that university.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jackrabbit on August 21, 2009, 09:24:17 pm
Dude, that Dean is totally bogus! You so need to toilet paper his house!

What was this topic about again? Oh yeah, intelligence.

Intelligence=/=Jackrabbit.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Vester on August 21, 2009, 09:27:09 pm
It was UP - the University of the Philippines. One of the supposedly greatest unis in Southeast Asia.

Also has the highest concentration of pot users and sellers.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: LegoLord on August 21, 2009, 09:32:28 pm
Also has the highest concentration of pot users and sellers.
World or country?
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Vester on August 21, 2009, 09:37:12 pm
Of the universities in my country.

Of course not the world! :D
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Zironic on August 21, 2009, 11:36:41 pm
Question: All IQ tests are on the internet. The internet is made up.

Answer: Lol wut
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Splendiferous on August 22, 2009, 02:15:39 am
The principle is actually quite sound.

The question is not asking you to draw from experience, but instead define how well you can interact with only the given factors regardless of irrelevant assumptions concerning the validity of the question itself. And by encouraging you to strip away the pre-assumption that fog the thinking process, it allows you to come at any problem in the best possible frame of mind. Think of it like the trick answer to a riddle.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: eerr on August 22, 2009, 02:52:22 pm


wisdome is imagining the future based on the past and present, and preparing for it. And in the future, using that knowledge.

old people have had far more time to know about, and do this. old folks therfore take the cake on wisdom.

Intelligence knowing about the past, and telling people about it in a modern way.

This is the turning point for adults, they start to become old people here if they upgrade intelligence into wisdom. Of course, its all moot if alzheimers sets in.

smart is knowing about the recent past and present, and then using it in a modern way.

Anybody can be smart, but its the young people you expect it from.
Smart mouth at least.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: eerr on August 22, 2009, 02:53:35 pm
If people know the diffrence between intelligence, smarts, and wisdom, then they obviously have some diffrence. It just requires a few examples and the right perspective.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Splendiferous on August 22, 2009, 03:18:40 pm
Knowledge is the information one gains
Intelligence is the capacity to retain that information
Wisdom is the application of that information.

BAM!
Defined.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: eerr on August 22, 2009, 03:33:47 pm
Knowledge is the information one gains
Intelligence is the capacity to retain that information
Wisdom is the application of that information.

BAM!
Defined.
so smarts is the ability to see and hear, intelligence is the ability to memorize that stuff, and wisdom is spitting it back out again for regurgitated use?
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Splendiferous on August 22, 2009, 03:38:37 pm
THat isn't what I said. And smarts is not a real words.
By smarts I assume you mean knowledge. And knowledge is not the ability to see and hear. It is, in layman's terms, that amount of stuff you know. Your mixing intelligence and knowledge and calling it smarts. And for that you must die.

TO THE GUILLOTINE!!!
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Muz on August 22, 2009, 04:12:24 pm
You might be thinking of aptitude tests like the SAT, which try to measure academic ability.

SAT is supposed to measure aptitude. Which is one of the most annoying things I find about how the USA views intelligence. It's not all about aptitude, most of 'intelligence' is about hard work. Asia runs almost solely on the 'hard work' principle, you have kids who have no attention span becoming doctors, lawyers, and engineers. There's the little problem with lacking creativity; these people don't invent as much as the western world, but then, chances are that your state-of-the-art motherboard is being assembled in a Chinese factory supervised by engineers who have no interest or aptitude in engineering. But they know what a lot of others don't, and do it for cheap too.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: bjlong on August 22, 2009, 04:27:03 pm
Smarts is presumably a noun version of "smart," which only really lends itself to the particularly terrible-sounding "smartness."

I still consider being smart as being able to quickly understand and assimilate information, break one realization down into its component bits, and being able to make a realization given limited information--the acquisition part of cognition.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Jreengus on August 22, 2009, 04:31:51 pm
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit, Wisdom is knowing not to put it into a fruit salad.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Vester on August 22, 2009, 05:44:53 pm
That's knowledge and wisdom, though. Intelligence and wisdom are native but act towards different things, knowledge is acquired.

Also what's wrong with tomatoes? Tomatoes are good! :D
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: blah28722 on August 22, 2009, 05:59:48 pm
SAT is supposed to measure aptitude. Which is one of the most annoying things I find about how the USA views intelligence. It's not all about aptitude, most of 'intelligence' is about hard work. Asia runs almost solely on the 'hard work' principle, you have kids who have no attention span becoming doctors, lawyers, and engineers.

I'm not sure where you got that info from.

Most Asian countries (China, Taiwan, and Japan I know for sure) employ a nation-wide exam that tests you on just about every subject possible.

As a result, there's an industry for teaching specifically for these exams. The most commonly used method is simply straight up cramming and hoping you can pull out enough useless facts during the test. As a result, the students who spend the most time memorizing things they'll never need to know (we do it here too, but it's much much worse over there.) are the ones that get accepted into high school.

There's a bunch of criticism about this, namely the fact that cramming info doesn't actually allow you to be effective at work, which resulted in well-educated individuals who aren't capable of fulfilling their job requirements (I don't think I got this across correctly, can't word it properly).

I was looking at some chinese newspapers on a flight from Shanghai the other day, and it had questions from their high school entrance exam, which was a huge (200+ Qs, with essays) test. It had:

World history/geography/culture:
which of the following cities would be least affected by global warming?
a) <city in netherlands>
b) New York
c) Paris
d) etc.

Math, fairly advanced geometry (I'd say it'd fit in well with the hard SAT math questions)

English (this is China), fairly basic, maybe first or second grade

Ancient Chinese Literature

Ancient chinese history

Recent history

Chemistry, biology, and a lot of Gees.


Most of this stuff isn't even taught until taught until high school in the US. This is a test for what would be kids finishing their 9th year (last year in middle school) to get into high school.

Basically, they have the SAT on steroids.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Vester on August 22, 2009, 06:09:01 pm
The Philippines had a similar test system.

Then it got switched for one that was worse.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: eerr on August 22, 2009, 07:25:08 pm
Crap, people are dangerously close to figuring out how much bullshit I mix into what I say.

Quick! my dwarf is on fire, in magma, drowning (from magma) has lost all of his limbs because of [sever_on_breaks], has water falling down upon his head from a lever pulled by a noble, and is hexed with magic the gathering's "pacifism", is filled with paralyzing spider venom, and has completely flown the coop(with his head in a chicken coop)!

Ahhh good times.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Virex on August 22, 2009, 07:40:40 pm
SAT is supposed to measure aptitude. Which is one of the most annoying things I find about how the USA views intelligence. It's not all about aptitude, most of 'intelligence' is about hard work. Asia runs almost solely on the 'hard work' principle, you have kids who have no attention span becoming doctors, lawyers, and engineers.

I'm not sure where you got that info from.

Most Asian countries (China, Taiwan, and Japan I know for sure) employ a nation-wide exam that tests you on just about every subject possible.

As a result, there's an industry for teaching specifically for these exams. The most commonly used method is simply straight up cramming and hoping you can pull out enough useless facts during the test. As a result, the students who spend the most time memorizing things they'll never need to know (we do it here too, but it's much much worse over there.) are the ones that get accepted into high school.

There's a bunch of criticism about this, namely the fact that cramming info doesn't actually allow you to be effective at work, which resulted in well-educated individuals who aren't capable of fulfilling their job requirements (I don't think I got this across correctly, can't word it properly).

I was looking at some chinese newspapers on a flight from Shanghai the other day, and it had questions from their high school entrance exam, which was a huge (200+ Qs, with essays) test. It had:

World history/geography/culture:
which of the following cities would be least affected by global warming?
a) <city in netherlands>
b) New York
c) Paris
d) etc.

Math, fairly advanced geometry (I'd say it'd fit in well with the hard SAT math questions)

English (this is China), fairly basic, maybe first or second grade

Ancient Chinese Literature

Ancient chinese history

Recent history

Chemistry, biology, and a lot of Gees.


Most of this stuff isn't even taught until taught until high school in the US. This is a test for what would be kids finishing their 9th year (last year in middle school) to get into high school.

Basically, they have the SAT on steroids.

Measuring all that knowledge seems a bit redundant. To pick an example from one of my exams (materials A probably):
There was a question about the crystal lattice of a metal (either Vanadium or platina, or perhaps an alloy), with several questions concerning calculations and just basicly knowing what a crystal lattice is and what defects are, followed by identifying empty spaces in the crystal latice. Then the final part of that question was: Why is this mettal usefull as a cataclyst.

This illustrates what I mean. You can easely sum up all characterestics of the crystal latice of Vanadium, but that doesn´t help one damn bit untill you realise the voids line up to make small channels in which something can react. Knowledger is good and neccesary and it defines your smartness, but you need to be able to combine existing knowledge into conclusions to be intellegent.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Muz on August 22, 2009, 08:37:04 pm
SAT is supposed to measure aptitude. Which is one of the most annoying things I find about how the USA views intelligence. It's not all about aptitude, most of 'intelligence' is about hard work. Asia runs almost solely on the 'hard work' principle, you have kids who have no attention span becoming doctors, lawyers, and engineers.

I'm not sure where you got that info from.

Most Asian countries (China, Taiwan, and Japan I know for sure) employ a nation-wide exam that tests you on just about every subject possible.

As a result, there's an industry for teaching specifically for these exams. The most commonly used method is simply straight up cramming and hoping you can pull out enough useless facts during the test. As a result, the students who spend the most time memorizing things they'll never need to know (we do it here too, but it's much much worse over there.) are the ones that get accepted into high school.

There's a bunch of criticism about this, namely the fact that cramming info doesn't actually allow you to be effective at work, which resulted in well-educated individuals who aren't capable of fulfilling their job requirements (I don't think I got this across correctly, can't word it properly).

I was looking at some chinese newspapers on a flight from Shanghai the other day, and it had questions from their high school entrance exam, which was a huge (200+ Qs, with essays) test. It had:

Most of this stuff isn't even taught until taught until high school in the US. This is a test for what would be kids finishing their 9th year (last year in middle school) to get into high school.

Basically, they have the SAT on steroids.

Lol, sorry, I meant "no interest in their field", not "no attention span", just edited that wrong before posting :P

But you sort of proved the point I was trying to make there. Those people are surprisingly good at their job, but they understand little to nothing about what they're doing. They're pretty much the cliche of nerds.. the kind of guys who can find the value of pi to 100 digits, but don't know what it's for. It's not exactly intelligence.. but they're damn knowledgable without having any aptitude for it.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: blah28722 on August 22, 2009, 08:41:06 pm
I don't think anyone would have trouble understanding pi.

I have that kind of trouble with writing/English though. I have a repertoire of words to use in my vocabulary (i c wat i did thar), but I have a hard time writing anything but the most direct sentences. I can write an instruction manual, but not a short story.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: LegoLord on August 22, 2009, 10:08:20 pm
If I had a map I could tell you which city would be the answer to that question about global warning.  Which ever option is closest to one of the poles; the closer to the equator you are, the more your area is affected by green house gases, apparently.

In fact, I also heard that the north and south poles are the only areas affected by solar winds (which is what causes the auroras), due to the poles of the magnet that is the core being the weakest points in its magnetic field.  On top of that, it is hypothesized that Mars lost it's atmosphere to solar winds; there is evidence that mars too had a molten core capable of producing a magnetic field, but it cooled and the field faded, leaving the atmosphere vulnerable to being stripped by the the solar winds (from the sun, obviously).

Now Earth's field is weakening, but it is looking more like the field is weakening from flipping magnetic poles (there is evidence of this having happened before, a long time ago, in more-magnetically aligned minerals, such as magnetite, on sea beds and such where it has not been disturbed by man); it is molten, after all, so any shift would look like a gradual weakening as north and south polarities mix.  This temporary weakness would leave the atmosphere vulnerable to solar winds.

From this, I have developed a hypothesis:  Solar winds slow the rate of global warming in the poles (those areas least resistant to them).  Were this a science project, the problem, or question, would be "do solar winds slow or affect the rate of global warming?"

So if this were to turn out true, the next question would be:  Will this have any positive effect on the global warming that will afflict the earth when its field is too weak to protect its atmosphere?  Or:  Will the temporary vulnerability to the solar winds have a enough of a beneficial effect to make up for the temporary increase in unhealthy radiation? (I would of course say yes out of optimism)

This is of course all just speculation from a 17 year old who may not quite have a good enough grasp on the concepts (although I left details out on purpose for being too long, so keep that in mind) and I'm largely recalling things we went over after EOC exams in Physical Science Freshman year.

But if we assume all of what I said is as I said it, then that would be an example of what those IQ questions we've been making fun of might be aiming for ('dogs can run.  Jill can run.  Therefore Jill is a . . .' or however it goes).

Edit:  Now after posting I realize that if I am at least close to right about some of those concepts, this might have shown up in some science magazine.  Then someone will think I just copied that, and it would be embarrassing.  But I don't read those sorts of magazines.  Or any magazines other than those from which my screen name is derived.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: blah28722 on August 23, 2009, 07:56:43 am
If I had a map I could tell you which city would be the answer to that question about global warning.  Which ever option is closest to one of the poles; the closer to the equator you are, the more your area is affected by green house gases, apparently.

In fact, I also heard that the north and south poles are the only areas affected by solar winds (which is what causes the auroras), due to the poles of the magnet that is the core being the weakest points in its magnetic field.  On top of that, it is hypothesized that Mars lost it's atmosphere to solar winds; there is evidence that mars too had a molten core capable of producing a magnetic field, but it cooled and the field faded, leaving the atmosphere vulnerable to being stripped by the the solar winds (from the sun, obviously).

Now Earth's field is weakening, but it is looking more like the field is weakening from flipping magnetic poles (there is evidence of this having happened before, a long time ago, in more-magnetically aligned minerals, such as magnetite, on sea beds and such where it has not been disturbed by man); it is molten, after all, so any shift would look like a gradual weakening as north and south polarities mix.  This temporary weakness would leave the atmosphere vulnerable to solar winds.

From this, I have developed a hypothesis:  Solar winds slow the rate of global warming in the poles (those areas least resistant to them).  Were this a science project, the problem, or question, would be "do solar winds slow or affect the rate of global warming?"

So if this were to turn out true, the next question would be:  Will this have any positive effect on the global warming that will afflict the earth when its field is too weak to protect its atmosphere?  Or:  Will the temporary vulnerability to the solar winds have a enough of a beneficial effect to make up for the temporary increase in unhealthy radiation? (I would of course say yes out of optimism)

This is of course all just speculation from a 17 year old who may not quite have a good enough grasp on the concepts (although I left details out on purpose for being too long, so keep that in mind) and I'm largely recalling things we went over after EOC exams in Physical Science Freshman year.

But if we assume all of what I said is as I said it, then that would be an example of what those IQ questions we've been making fun of might be aiming for ('dogs can run.  Jill can run.  Therefore Jill is a . . .' or however it goes).

Edit:  Now after posting I realize that if I am at least close to right about some of those concepts, this might have shown up in some science magazine.  Then someone will think I just copied that, and it would be embarrassing.  But I don't read those sorts of magazines.  Or any magazines other than those from which my screen name is derived.

IIRC I think the timing of the flipping of the poles coincide with mass extinctions of the past, so I'm not that optimistic.

Then again, these things have also coincided with ice ages, sunspots, solar flares, and asteroids.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: LegoLord on August 23, 2009, 08:06:41 am
And our atmosphere is a lot like an oven now, so we might do better than they did at the start of the last ice age.  If not, then it might be necessary to blow up a volcano and an oil refinery.  That oughta do it.
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: IndonesiaWarMinister on August 23, 2009, 08:09:01 am
The Philippines had a similar test system.

Then it got switched for one that was worse.

Indonesia have this too.
We have angsty legion now, because of that (I really, really, under stress that I manage to make a blueprint that involves spreading ‼FIRE‼ into the Department of Education building... and trap all their officials.

I would do that if I don't get accepted into highschool, but eh, I am here now, still breathing, still 'free'...
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: GruffyBears on August 23, 2009, 02:21:21 pm
Ha!

Ireland has a system where, if the students do badly; Make the test easier!
Title: Re: Let us define intelligence
Post by: Muz on August 23, 2009, 03:08:09 pm
Hah, in Malaysia, the ministry of education thinks that having everyone scores A's makes them smarter. Getting a B doesn't even mean you'd get a "Pass" here in Australia. I'm not even kidding. :(