Post by: CobaltKobold on November 04, 2009, 02:26:29 am
I personally am wondering how to make a game where you want to behave as scummily as possible- and being scummy is not a reason to lynch someone.
But feel free to talk about whate'er gametypes you want, discuss viability, playability, fun factor, and the like.
Anti-FoS on you all.
Post by: Vector on November 04, 2009, 02:28:25 am
Do you mind if I start my own thread? I was considering keeping a running tally of interesting game ideas at the top and such, and I think it'd need a moderator of some sort. Plus, three interested people does not genius make.
Erm. Hope that doesn't bother you.
Post by: CobaltKobold on November 04, 2009, 02:30:03 am
Besides, you said I was better with words.
Post by: Pandarsenic on November 04, 2009, 02:40:09 am
I personally am wondering how to make a game where you want to behave as scummily as possible- and being scummy is not a reason to lynch someone.
10jesters
Post by: Vector on November 04, 2009, 02:41:36 am
Let's both try to function as mods of sorts, then? I'll keep tallies of the ideas and stuff in the second post, and maybe you can make the top all official-ish.
Post by: Mr.Person on November 04, 2009, 02:46:15 am
Post by: CobaltKobold on November 04, 2009, 02:59:36 am
If it's a closed setup, then it won't work. If it's an open setup...how the hell do you not deadlock?I personally am wondering how to make a game where you want to behave as scummily as possible- and being scummy is not a reason to lynch someone.
10jesters
"Systematically Make Others Win" = unworkable I think...
Post by: Pandarsenic on November 04, 2009, 03:04:51 am
Post by: Neruz on November 04, 2009, 05:41:55 am
Another idea is a puzzle-mafia i'm currently toying with, i don't want to spoil the details.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 04, 2009, 10:47:00 am
Post by: Mr.Person on November 04, 2009, 01:45:51 pm
If it's a closed setup, then it won't work. If it's an open setup...how the hell do you not deadlock?I personally am wondering how to make a game where you want to behave as scummily as possible- and being scummy is not a reason to lynch someone.
10jesters
"Systematically Make Others Win" = unworkable I think...
Systamatically Make Others Win or Lose could work, however. It'd probably be something like SMOL. but the players can vote to end the game (making everybody still alive "win), make a player "win", or make a player "lose". The catch is, one of the players is a Jester. That player has to "lose" to win. The rest of the players have to "win" to win.
Post by: dakarian on November 04, 2009, 02:50:08 pm
Myself, I prefer puzzles and games that fill up on crazy. KWN was a riot in just how twisted everyone was in figuring it out. In fact, it seems that 'figuring out game' is what makes people wake up the most. Toon mafia always has that in spades as people wonder just how the game is set up 'this time'. BYOR mafia has that as well.
People just seem to like fighting the game as much as they do fighting each other.
Post by: Vector on November 04, 2009, 03:24:59 pm
I personally really want more vanilla games, though that might just be me... studying others' behavior outside of power-role-bloom is fun and profitable.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 04, 2009, 03:27:02 pm
Yeah, it's bastard-ish.
Post by: dakarian on November 04, 2009, 04:27:07 pm
Just need one more person to join Not So Beginner's Mafia 2 :P
@Leaf
I've heard of a game like that. The host even encouraged outsiders to go in and post/vote as if they were playing to further hide everyone.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 04, 2009, 04:38:00 pm
Post by: CobaltKobold on November 04, 2009, 05:05:09 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on November 04, 2009, 05:09:06 pm
I have been drafting out plans for a super-bastard game where people apply by pms and aren't even told who's playing.
Yeah, it's bastard-ish.
And the secret to the next Kill Webadict Now Mafia is out. He wouldn't in, post, or vote, but he'd still be in the game, he'd be a serial killer, and he'd need to be lynched or night killed for the town to win.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 04, 2009, 05:24:17 pm
Quack quack quack.
Post by: dakarian on November 22, 2009, 11:23:06 am
Like that humans vs monsters thing.
Post by: ExKirby on November 22, 2009, 11:46:33 am
Quote
Well, I'm torn between making one of two Mafias-making a "Stereotype Mafia" or a "School Mafia".
In "Stereotype Mafia", there's a ton of Stereotyped people (eg. Vampires, Old Ladies, Punks), who are split into two catagories-Good and Evil. Every role will have some sort of power. Some players' roles will "break the stereotype", and be on the opposite allignment, and possibly have different powers. Instead of winning with Town or Mafia, you win with your allignment-Good or Evil.
"School Mafia" bends the rules a bit. Instead of there being a Mafia, there is a bunch of Punks who have done heavy structural damage and graffiti vandalism. Players start with the keys to one room and a can of coloured spray paint. During the night, players can either use their night ability, lend their keys to someone else or spray a message to the room they have keys to. One of the Punks MUST spray something. During the day, players decide between them what story they will tell, and ultimatly, who they will blame. There will most likely be some other quirks in between, so...
Post by: Org on November 22, 2009, 11:56:21 am
Something like where the Mod is a God. Maybe Huitzilopochtli, patron god of the Aztecs?
Then there are regular Aztecs, Priests, High Priest(s), Spaniards, and Traitor Aztecs. And maybe an Artifact Bearer. Hmmm...
More rules later.
Post by: RandomNumberGenerator on November 22, 2009, 12:15:55 pm
Post by: dakarian on November 22, 2009, 12:22:52 pm
So it'll be like:
Old Ladies - Town - able to roleblock by hitting people with their purse.
but you may have a lady that breaks the stereotype - a sk - capable of killing with their steel purse.
interesting. How many players are you planning on? In fact, mind giving an example setup of this?
school mafia: this I'm not so sure of since there's a lot of odd behavior going on and I've noticed having too much of it makes everyone go apathetic (see KWN:DE start of Day 2 before I got them to stop gorging themselves on Italics)
Aztec Mafia:
hmm mod as a god smells of lots of mod interaction. Best to get that organized first. Any ideas on how the players will interact with this 'god'?
Jekyll-Hyde:
the #1 trick to this game working is the method that the SK realizes they are a SK.
The #2 trick is keeping the players interested since the day game is effectively useless (since the SK doesn't know they are the SK and, thus, can't drop scumtells)
Post by: ExKirby on November 22, 2009, 12:34:21 pm
Stereotype mafia..
So it'll be like:
Old Ladies - Town - able to roleblock by hitting people with their purse.
but you may have a lady that breaks the stereotype - a sk - capable of killing with their steel purse.
interesting. How many players are you planning on? In fact, mind giving an example setup of this?
school mafia: this I'm not so sure of since there's a lot of odd behavior going on and I've noticed having too much of it makes everyone go apathetic (see KWN:DE start of Day 2 before I got them to stop gorging themselves on Italics)
Stereotype-Well, maybe you get a stereotyped cop, he comes along and only finds a sweet old lady then assumes she's good, when she's actually evil.
School-How so?
Post by: dakarian on November 22, 2009, 12:49:31 pm
i.e. An example setup to Beginner's Mafia is:
9 players
1 doctor, 1 cop, and 5 townies vs 1 mafia roleblocker and 1 mafia godfather
Unless it's a Bastard game (thus the setup has to be hidden) you should be able to imagine how a game would turn out. How many players would be playing? How many of those 'groups' and how many players will be in each? How many scum and what types?
The setup would change each time, but seeing one example of what could happen will give a good idea on how the game would fall.
School Mafia:
well, it sounds like instead of killing there will be painting. Why would the punks want to paint and how would everyone else use it? What's the goal of the sides?
In a normal game, the town is driven by the fear of death. They know that if they sit around and do nothing they will be killed-one by one- in the night until they lose. That drives the town forward towards the hunt. The scum, meanwhile, are driven to commit their night actions to shrink the town because that's how THEY win. The scum are also driven to duke it out with the town in the day game because they know if they don't 'look town' they'll be lynched and will lose.
Thus both sides have distinct reasons to perform their actions-assuming they want to win.
OTOH, in Religious mafia, there was a town that won by surviving or being converted. This meant there was no real incentive to find the religious (except perhaps the Zealot which could kill). Thus they turned VERY passive and rather inactive.
When you add something 'non-typical' there's a risk the players will play with it then get bored because they don't feel a drive to use it. You need to make sure there IS a strong, easy to see, drive to do what you want them to do rather than just sit there and flake.
Post by: Org on November 22, 2009, 01:20:08 pm
Well, the players Pray(aka Vote) for the God(Mod)to kill someone in the day(very normal), but then at night, the Priests(or a type of Priest, like a ritual priest or something like that)can sacrifice a player for the god to do something good, like protect/heal/investigate.
Post by: ExKirby on November 22, 2009, 01:36:26 pm
Sterotypical: no no no. I mean an example Setup to the game with the players and their roles.
i.e. An example setup to Beginner's Mafia is:
9 players
1 doctor, 1 cop, and 5 townies vs 1 mafia roleblocker and 1 mafia godfather
Unless it's a Bastard game (thus the setup has to be hidden) you should be able to imagine how a game would turn out. How many players would be playing? How many of those 'groups' and how many players will be in each? How many scum and what types?
The setup would change each time, but seeing one example of what could happen will give a good idea on how the game would fall.
School Mafia:
well, it sounds like instead of killing there will be painting. Why would the punks want to paint and how would everyone else use it? What's the goal of the sides?
In a normal game, the town is driven by the fear of death. They know that if they sit around and do nothing they will be killed-one by one- in the night until they lose. That drives the town forward towards the hunt. The scum, meanwhile, are driven to commit their night actions to shrink the town because that's how THEY win. The scum are also driven to duke it out with the town in the day game because they know if they don't 'look town' they'll be lynched and will lose.
Thus both sides have distinct reasons to perform their actions-assuming they want to win.
OTOH, in Religious mafia, there was a town that won by surviving or being converted. This meant there was no real incentive to find the religious (except perhaps the Zealot which could kill). Thus they turned VERY passive and rather inactive.
When you add something 'non-typical' there's a risk the players will play with it then get bored because they don't feel a drive to use it. You need to make sure there IS a strong, easy to see, drive to do what you want them to do rather than just sit there and flake.
Stereotype-Well, to pull a 14-player out of the hat, a Townie, a Cop, a Mafioso, A Godfather, an Old Lady, a Punk, a Vampire, Gordon Brown, Barrack Obama, a Smoker, a Zombie, a Doc and a Pirate.
School-Well, what you write MAY have some effect to gameplay. For instance, writing that X loves Y when it's true, then either X or Y will feel emabrresed(See TDI-Where Heather reads out Gwen's diary) and will therefor be unable to post for the next day. Adding someone's name to the end of a message (eg-The Teacher Sucks, by X) will make a small chance that that person will be expelled-more so if Punk.
Post by: dakarian on November 22, 2009, 01:51:31 pm
Hmmm.. the priests kill someone then perform another action.
It'll require a lot of tweaks but... I like the concept.
what pops in my head: The priest NEEDs to kill a townie: if they try to kill scum they die instead.
I can see that work if the powers are worthy enough.
Post by: ExKirby on November 22, 2009, 03:46:42 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on November 22, 2009, 11:42:56 pm
Post by: dakarian on November 23, 2009, 07:37:48 am
That'll mean the day game should be much quicker (but not empty).
People say that the jester would break the game. I can't see it. The town is already too panicked to lynch and would lose automatically if ANYONE but the SK is killed. If anything, it'll be hard to win AS the jester since you'd have to live to lylo while looking scummy but not THAT scummy and not getting NKed by the vig or SK.
Roles to be careful of are the cop and vig. Vig can wipe the town out in Very Fun fashion, but one lucky shot wipes out the SK. The cop is worse, since they don't harm the town but, again, one lucky target on the SK and it's game over.
What to do about it: Vig is ok to add, just know that anything may happen. Besides, unlike KWN, this isn't a Bastard Mod so there's no problems with just running the game again.
Cop is messier. I'd recommend if a Cop is around to put in a SK miller or survivor: something else neutral to provide for fake claims. You could also give a chance that the Cop is stoned (always sees neutral). Id put in a Nexused Jester but I'm the host of KWN:DE so you DON'T want to listen to me. ;D
Overall, it's a cute, fun, fast-possibly VERY FAST game. Know that Vig = Chaos and try to put a check on the Cop's power and you'll be fine.
Note: you couldn't fill up the slots because of the masses of games going on. After you're done this, if you run it again when we've regulated the games properly you'll see a better turnout.
Post by: dakarian on November 23, 2009, 01:16:44 pm
Redirection Mafia:
Aspects:
1. Everyone will have a role that targets, such as a Doctor, RoleBlocker, VoteBlocker, ext.. This includes the mafia any any possible SKs, even a jester if one exists (Vig Jester FTW!, Doctor SK wtf?!). The roles will be balanced for a normal game. Only roles that work at night and use one name will occur (so no Redirecters..*sob* I love Redirecters).
2. Basic functions of the game work the same, Town needs to kill scum, day will have its lynch, so on so on.
3. The trick: Each night, instead of using your power, you will use someone ELSE'S power. Each night you choose who you want to control and where they will target.
- If no one chooses to control your action then you will do nothing. If multiple people choose to control you, who succeeds will be picked at random. The controllers will be told if they succeed or fail.
- The Controller is not told the role or the results of the action. The Role holder is told what they were forced to do.
i.e.
Litia is a Roleblocker. I am..well.. me. RedWarrior0 is scum.
I Control Litia to target RedWarrior0.
I am told that I was successful and that Litia will target RedWarrior0
Litia is told that she blocked RedWarrior0 .
Balances:
1. the scum-styled kills (the Mafia night kill and the SK night kill) are NOT affected by the control: the mafia doing the nightkill gets to control it as they see fit. If they perform their nightkill, they CANNOT control anyone, but their secondary role can still be used by others.
2. Cop will be replaced by an Investigator, who can tell what person the player Controlled. This is due to the fact that they will read a person doing a Scumkill as having 'controlled no one'.
Questions and comments? Note, this game won't be placed into play until after KWN:DE and the following BYOR game I'll run next is over, so it won't be for a WHILE.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 23, 2009, 01:24:56 pm
Perhaps each player has a "speed order" or something like that?
Post by: dakarian on November 23, 2009, 02:01:06 pm
So if I send an action at you at 5 pm and Litia sends hers at 5:10 then I succeed and she fails.
however, that'll punish those with a RL.
The other easy solution is to just let ALL choices go through. So if two people tell the Doc to protect someone the Doc protects both.
Would bring some fun chaos. :D
(I thought it would be subject to the "all players go on the same person and hope they are the Investigator/Doc" but that breaks apart since the scum can just wipe out the center person. Having a hidden Doc on standby isn't enough since you not only need a Doc but someone to Control the doc who knows the doc with 'doc' not being a lying scum and the Controller not being scum)
Aka, it's not that easy to break I think..and everyone mass hitting the Vig for multiple kills will be EPIC :D.
Post by: Mr.Person on November 23, 2009, 02:14:42 pm
Post by: dakarian on November 23, 2009, 02:31:35 pm
So redirecting onto the same person would just kill Vigs.
Mafia COULD do it but wouldn't that cause an Investigator to spot you easily?
Post by: ExKirby on November 23, 2009, 02:36:45 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on November 23, 2009, 04:30:01 pm
Your game is really just a normal setup with the added touch that NLing will be much much more common. There's nothing unbroken about it: it's just very PR heavy.Believe me, if I show you the 9-player plan, it might be a little different than what you expected.
That'll mean the day game should be much quicker (but not empty).
People say that the jester would break the game. I can't see it. The town is already too panicked to lynch and would lose automatically if ANYONE but the SK is killed. If anything, it'll be hard to win AS the jester since you'd have to live to lylo while looking scummy but not THAT scummy and not getting NKed by the vig or SK.
Roles to be careful of are the cop and vig. Vig can wipe the town out in Very Fun fashion, but one lucky shot wipes out the SK. The cop is worse, since they don't harm the town but, again, one lucky target on the SK and it's game over.
What to do about it: Vig is ok to add, just know that anything may happen. Besides, unlike KWN, this isn't a Bastard Mod so there's no problems with just running the game again.
Cop is messier. I'd recommend if a Cop is around to put in a SK miller or survivor: something else neutral to provide for fake claims. You could also give a chance that the Cop is stoned (always sees neutral). Id put in a Nexused Jester but I'm the host of KWN:DE so you DON'T want to listen to me. ;D
Overall, it's a cute, fun, fast-possibly VERY FAST game. Know that Vig = Chaos and try to put a check on the Cop's power and you'll be fine.
Note: you couldn't fill up the slots because of the masses of games going on. After you're done this, if you run it again when we've regulated the games properly you'll see a better turnout.
Post by: dakarian on November 23, 2009, 04:48:12 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on November 23, 2009, 05:05:37 pm
Post by: dakarian on November 23, 2009, 05:24:06 pm
Post by: ExKirby on November 24, 2009, 03:02:34 am
Any more comments on my mafias?
Post by: Vector on November 24, 2009, 03:10:43 am
Any more comments on my mafias?
Erm... so, since it looks like you're seeking commentary, I'll just say that neither genre would be one that I'd probably play in. This isn't because you're the mod or something, by the way. It's because I am extremely happy to be out of high school (and as such don't really want to revisit it on the fora), and I can't say I'm too interested in stereotypes. Wow I somehow manage to sound incredibly insensitive right there but unfortunately it's true.
I'm sure that wasn't the commentary you were looking for, but at least it's something...
Post by: ExKirby on November 24, 2009, 12:10:19 pm
Post by: Org on November 24, 2009, 01:13:22 pm
Any more comments on my mafias?
Post by: Vector on November 24, 2009, 01:17:37 pm
Any more comments on my mafias?
Would definitely in on the Aztec one; don't know about the other, since you haven't mentioned it much.
Post by: Org on November 24, 2009, 01:57:49 pm
Post by: Vector on November 24, 2009, 02:01:06 pm
15 min days. 15 min nights.
Erm... no, sorry. I feel like that removes most of the point of playing Mafia on a forum.
Post by: Org on November 24, 2009, 02:03:21 pm
15 min days. 15 min nights.hehehe
it was a joke
Erm... no, sorry. I feel like that removes most of the point of playing Mafia on a forum.
Post by: Vector on November 24, 2009, 02:10:15 pm
15 min days. 15 min nights.hehehe
it was a joke
Erm... no, sorry. I feel like that removes most of the point of playing Mafia on a forum.
NEW GOAL: learn how to find out when people are joking ._.
Post by: Org on November 24, 2009, 02:15:42 pm
It only works IRL15 min days. 15 min nights.hehehe
it was a joke
Erm... no, sorry. I feel like that removes most of the point of playing Mafia on a forum.
NEW GOAL: learn how to find out when people are joking ._.
Post by: Apostolic Nihilist on November 25, 2009, 11:06:44 am
Each person is assigned two roles, one their mafia role, the other their 'forum' role.
Mafia roles would be the standard, vig/cop/doctor/townie/godfather. The 'forum' role would consist of their OOC role; e.g., "Meta analyzer", a cop with a chance to figure out someone's alignment. Perhaps a "Lurker" role which is forced to limit their posts, a "Troll" role, capable of causing someone to ragequit(/be eliminated) if someone responds with a large (>400?) words directed specifically at them. Masons who are 'buddies' that communicate outside of the thread, new players who must change their vote at least 4 times per day, etc. All of these roles would be assigned independently of the 'game' roles.
There's nothing really unique about it, so obviously it needs to be fleshed out more. It's just a whimsical idea I entertained for a few minutes, really, and it may or may not have potential.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 25, 2009, 11:08:07 am
Post by: dakarian on November 25, 2009, 03:54:46 pm
i.e. I snuck in a Roll to Dodge aspect within a mafia game and everyone forgot the mafia game and played RtD. Once I fussed at them a bit they then ignored the second game and went back to mafia.
Having secondary roles can work, but a mafia game should be a mafia game I think.
Post by: Apostolic Nihilist on November 25, 2009, 05:39:29 pm
Of course, that's completely different from what I originally intended; what I originally suggested was more akin to a normal mafia game with unique roles.
Here are some of the roles I had considered before giving up:
Newb (T, M) - Every day, one of your posts must contain one of the following: OMGUS, rolefishing, bandwagoning (with no reason). The content of aforementioned post must be less than 30 words.
Vengeful Newb (T) - You must OMGUS the first person to vote you each day. You may not remove your vote from them until they apologize for suspecting you.
Grammar Nazi (T, M) - If you find a grammar or spelling error in someone's post, you may write a post attacking them for it. Their action will be redirected to you for the night.
Explosive (T, unaligned) - If you ever get more than three votes on you, ALL YOUR POSTS MUST BE IN CAPS AND CONTAIN EGREGIOUS INSULTS DIRECTED TOWARD THE PEOPLE VOTING FOR YOU. YOU REQUIRE EXTRA VOTES TO BE LYNCHED.
Vengeful Veteran (T, M, unaligned) - You hate it when people vote you. Why won't they just listen to you!? The first person to vote you becomes your lynchee. You must lynch them as well as fulfill your primary victory condition to win.
etc, etc.
Most of them would only work in a closed-role setup anyway.
But onto better things:
Has anyone tried a post restriction mafia before, loaded with roles that have various post restrictions on them but is otherwise completely normal?
Post by: Vector on November 25, 2009, 05:41:34 pm
Explosive (T, unaligned) - If you ever get more than three votes on you, ALL YOUR POSTS MUST BE IN CAPS AND CONTAIN EGREGIOUS INSULTS DIRECTED TOWARD THE PEOPLE VOTING FOR YOU. YOU REQUIRE EXTRA VOTES TO BE LYNCHED.
Harhar.
But onto better things:
Has anyone tried a post restriction mafia before, loaded with roles that have various post restrictions on them but is otherwise completely normal?
Haven't. I wanted to, though. It was going to have iambic pentameter, haiku, biblical anaphor, and trochees.
Then I realized that was in fact a really bad idea.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 25, 2009, 05:43:10 pm
Quote
Has anyone tried a post restriction mafia before, loaded with roles that have various post restrictions on them but is otherwise completely normal?I considered it, but dismissed it after BYOR Mafia 1 (desu). Although keeping a verbal tic was susprisingly effective in drawing attention away from myself...
Post by: dakarian on November 25, 2009, 07:09:11 pm
i.e. Newb is a post restriction I can stand behind, since it's not THAT restrictive.
Vengeful Newb, a small change: instead of apologizing, make it so that the person must unvote you before you remove your vote. THEN make it so that the OMGUS vote is a DOUBLE vote (so if I'm a VN, Litia votes for me, I OMGUS her, she now has 2 votes on her until she unvotes me)
Grammar Nazi - meh since 'redirected to you' = 'magnet' which is a negative role. Instead do the reverse: if any person you Nazi targets you, their action will be blocked.
LOVE Explosive-it's similar to Pandarsenic's role in Toon Mafia 5 though more insane.
VV - OMG ABSOLUTELY AWESOME!
Post by: Neruz on November 25, 2009, 07:36:23 pm
Language Nazi (SK)
You automatically kill the first person to make a grammatical or spelling error in a post, this includes things like TXT and other bastardized language forms, but not acronyms. You win when everyone else is dead.
Post by: Pandarsenic on November 25, 2009, 07:58:04 pm
An alternative to the Grammar Nazi would be:Translation: "We don't want Org or Diakron to play."
Language Nazi (SK)
You automatically kill the first person to make a grammatical or spelling error in a post, this includes things like TXT and other bastardized language forms, but not acronyms. You win when everyone else is dead.
Post by: Vector on November 25, 2009, 08:03:23 pm
An alternative to the Grammar Nazi would be:Translation: "We don't want Org or Diakron to play."
Language Nazi (SK)
You automatically kill the first person to make a grammatical or spelling error in a post, this includes things like TXT and other bastardized language forms, but not acronyms. You win when everyone else is dead.
Or that guy who brought the word "scumbucket" to the forum. He makes up a lot of words and uses some pretty funkalicious idioms, right?
Post by: RedWarrior0 on November 25, 2009, 08:04:55 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on November 25, 2009, 08:05:56 pm
An alternative to the Grammar Nazi would be:Translation: "We don't want Org or Diakron to play."
Language Nazi (SK)
You automatically kill the first person to make a grammatical or spelling error in a post, this includes things like TXT and other bastardized language forms, but not acronyms. You win when everyone else is dead.
Or that guy who brought the word "scumbucket" to the forum. He makes up a lot of words and uses some pretty funkalicious idioms, right?
We must find this man!
EDIT:
Hee hee HAHAHA
...
The oldest I can find is YOU Vector. Here. (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=42347.msg784040#msg784040)
Post by: Vector on November 25, 2009, 08:13:01 pm
I am in fact the person who coined "scumbucket."
...
And funkalicious. Not that anyone likes that one.
Post by: Vector on November 25, 2009, 08:17:19 pm
Do you folks think a game including flavortext would be all right if I restricted flavortexting to three posts per game-day? I mostly worry about the entire thing degenerating like KWN:DE did, but I am still tempted by das RP.
Post by: ToonyMan on November 25, 2009, 08:18:41 pm
Vector, you committed a sin worst than death!
Post by: Vector on November 25, 2009, 08:20:28 pm
You saw NOTHING!
Post by: dakarian on November 25, 2009, 08:40:16 pm
An idea:
King of the Mafia
1 Mafia King, x number of players. Low number.. 5 or 6.
Each player may choose their own role from the Xylbot list with a few exceptions (i.e. no recruiting). Mafia King gets a NK.
VERY hard coded deadlines, 2 RL days MAX per day, 24 hours at night.
Meanwhile, others may sign up during this process by sending the host their chosen role.
If the King dies the people who have signed up may join to replace the ones who've died while a new King Mafia, chosen at random, is chosen, . Those who have died may sign up with another role.
The cycle continues from where it left off (if the old King was lynched, it starts at night, ext..).
Game ends when one player succeeds in killing off all of their opponents as mafia.
It's meant to be pretty continual, with lots of Kings dying, but with a small group of living players so it doesn't rob too many player slots.
Post by: ExKirby on November 26, 2009, 03:09:36 am
Post by: dakarian on November 26, 2009, 11:08:43 am
I could also do it BYOR style.
The evil trick is that you can't just think up a role that easily finds the King.. once you are king, you have to use that same role to kill off everyone else.
So you can become a cop to find the King, but the role is useless once you are King. You can be a Godfather to try to hide from cops once you become King but what good is it during the hunt?
Also, would I need some balancing tricks.. i.e. an Open setup that always displays the roles (though not the players)?
Post by: Mr.Person on November 27, 2009, 10:00:59 pm
Note that Townie and Mafioso are considered the same role for my purposes (So there might be pairs that're like a Mafioso + an Ascetic who thinks he's a Townie or a Townie + a Godfather who thinks he's a Mafioso). I won't do anything like Doctor-Vigilante pairs, but weird shit is possible, such as Roleblocker-Banshee, Serial Killer-Random Thing from Beyond, or even Jack of all Trades-MUP. Yes, I would pull that kind of shit, watch me. Half the fun will be guessing what your real role is.
I still haven't decided how to reveal to the players that their role is different from the one on their PM. Obviously I'd tell dead players instantly, although I'd probably have them roleflip the role they thought they were, only revealing their true role the next twilight. Then something like twilight Day 3, I'd tell everyone what their REAL role is. All this is up in the air, that's why I'm asking here. If anybody has a different win-con than the one in their role PM, I'd tell them such twilight Day 2. It's kind of weird to have a Survivor who thinks he's a Jester, eh? Note that I probably won't do this, but I might include something last minute that I wind up regretting, so I have to plan for it.
Post by: CobaltKobold on November 27, 2009, 10:12:25 pm
Primarily, because the setup does not appear to answer "How can this person achieve their goals?" in any reasonable manner.
Mafia and town could...actually, probably be fine in this respect- the goal of both is to appear town and find a plausible lynch. A townie thinking he's mafia/a mafia thinking he's townie-you realize this breaks if you leave mafia special communication? or you could just make a fake mafia of masons that get to be baffled when their NK doesn't go through.
mafia-thinking-townie:protown in that more "real" scumhunting happens. Promafia in that this is an excellent disguise.
townie-thinking-mafia:Promafia.
Post by: Mr.Person on November 27, 2009, 10:39:13 pm
Post by: Neruz on November 27, 2009, 10:42:39 pm
Post by: ExKirby on November 28, 2009, 12:32:03 pm
Post by: CobaltKobold on November 28, 2009, 07:10:27 pm
Post by: Neruz on November 28, 2009, 08:22:45 pm
What he is not informed of is that everyone he hypnotises also gets inducted into a Cult, the Cultists are deliberately sent PM's telling them that their Cult Leader likes to keep a low profile and be disconnected from the Cult itself, thus they are not allowed talk to him via PM's or they will be modkilled, nor are they allowed point him out or otherwise finger their leader in the thread or they will be modkilled. If he has something to say, he can PM them, but they cannot respond.
I saw it used in a game on MafiaScum.net while i was reading random threads; it was beautiful.
Post by: dakarian on December 06, 2009, 01:00:18 am
Eversion Mafia
First off, if you've played this game then you already have a base idea.
For those that haven't: this is and is not a Bastard Mod game.
The basic root of the game is standard: town vs mafia
The quirk is that the style of the game can change via Eversion. Through Eversion, the game can change, ranging from one extreme-a mountainous game with only vanilla roles, through other styles increasing in complexity and bastardy. The styles are as follows:
Mountainous No powers. Everyone is a Vanilla aspect of their role. Starting form of the game.
Basic Basic setup, similar to a Beginner's Mafia
Empowered Role Heavy Setup. Similar to Paranormal Mafia
Bastard Altered Rules from normal with hidden aspects and lies, but rules are solid (if unknown)
Similar to the original Kill Webadict Now.
Chaotic Bastard Unknown roles and effects. Many different aspects. Rules exist but many are written as game progresses. A crazier version of Kill Webadict Now: Dakarian Edition
Horrible Bastard My only wish is to make you regret that you ever
At various times, an Eversion Point is declared. Once declared, a player may post or PM to Evert Up or Down. First to post/PM will be the one to choose. Everting Up will bring the game up a style (i.e. from Bastard to Empowered) while Everting Down will push the game down one style.
Along with this, the players will have powers to Everse the system as well, such as lock the style in place temporarily, or bring the game to a particular point. Depending on Size, any third party roles will be greatly benefited by remaining in a particular style (i.e. a Survivor that cannot die so long as the game is in Horrible Bastard mode) and some players may personally prefer some modes to others (i.e. You may be a Townie in Mountainous and Basic, but a Nonvoter in Empowered).
Possible Roles, sorted by Mode
Mountainous: Townie, Mafioso
Basic: Doc, Cop, Townie, Mafioso, Godfather, RoleBlocker
Empowered: Townie, Doc, Cop, Redirector, Motivator, RoleBlocker, Reviver, Tracker, Nonvoter, Ascetic, Godfather, Miller, Judas, Unkillable, Role Cop, Vigilante, Paranoid Gun Owner, ext. Multi Roles possible
Bastard: Mutant, Changeling, Other hidden features.
Chaotic Bastard: Mystery Role, Unknown effects based on how game plays out.
Horrible Bastard: At the whim of the host.
Although there will be systems in place to attempt to manipulate the Eversions, the game is such that there is nothing lost if the players stick to one Mode all game. Also, since it is not a true bastard game, the game can be played again. All that would need to change is the rule set to the Bastard Mode, (Chaotic doesn't even have a formal ruleset. The host writes the rules as they play out. Horrible HAS no rules, except that the Eversion system must remain intact).
As far as finding out what you are in each Mode, the role PM will give each of the roles from the start (so, although you start in Mountainous, you'll know what you'll be in the other modes).
Thoughts?
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 06, 2009, 02:22:38 am
But I would have faith in your abilities to run it. Maybe help you balance it if you needed, but then I couldn't play. :c
Post by: Apostolic Nihilist on December 06, 2009, 05:06:31 am
Post by: Vector on December 06, 2009, 05:49:47 am
WIN.
I'm not going to be able to start any new games until after New Year's, but I would absolutely love to play this.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 06, 2009, 05:52:32 am
The only thing is that "First person to pm" seems a bit... well... random.
Eh, never mind.
Post by: Neruz on December 06, 2009, 06:56:56 am
Post by: dakarian on December 06, 2009, 10:59:59 am
@Pandar
You don't know how much I appriciate that compliment.
Balancing actually shouldn't be as hard as it seems. Mountainous is.well. Mountainous, Basic is just Beginner all over again.
Empowered is a standard game with lots of roles and the possiblity for multis. It needs balancing but since it's open we can discuss about that freely. Meph's spreadsheet he uses for paranormal will be very useful.
Chaotic isn't meant to be so much balanced as it is too confusing to gain advantage. I'll tell you now, Italics raises its ugly head here and I already have a few cute surprises to start off things.
Horribly Bastard is meant to be almost too broken to play. It can't be planned. All it needs is a host with a horrible horrible mind.
Bastard is probably the only one that needs host-based planning. I've got a few ideas with that one and I'll have time to flesh this one out.
It might even be best to give an advantage to one side in some modes, since the other team can recover by Everting the system.
What I will need help on is the Eversion powers. It's easy for the third parties: make them overpowered in their preferred mode and weak in others (i.e. Survivor that's unkillable in Horrible but a Skulker in Empowered and a townie in Mountainous).
Cute effect: Lylo with a Survivor can be defended by the town by keeping the game in Mountainous/Basic, which has no Survivors.
The trick is what to do with the Mafia/Town. In truth, if I had a large player base (note I consider 9p standard so 15 is Large in my eyes :P) I could just stuff it with third parties that fight among themselves to Evert the system then just let the Mafia/Town do what they want. I imagine like that, the Town would want to keep the game in one mode and stay there and the mafia would follow suit to 'look town'.
That can work. Give the eversion powers to third parties, and the mafia for lulz, and let things roll with that.
@Vector Do I spot someone who's played the game? If not you should. It's fun and a bit twisted once you get past L1
@Leaf I was thinking of having the town all chime in, but that would make it impossible for it to move beyond what the town wants. First to PM means third parties or mafia can manipulate the system without being seen.
I'll plop the game into Discussion mode and put up a thread so I can dump my ideas in. I want this to go well since this game can be played again if it does work well.
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 06, 2009, 11:31:38 am
Also, a BIT twisted?
Post by: Leafsnail on December 06, 2009, 11:36:41 am
Quote
@Leaf I was thinking of having the town all chime in, but that would make it impossible for it to move beyond what the town wants. First to PM means third parties or mafia can manipulate the system without being seen.It could be a secret ballot (ie pmed to you rather than announced on thread) with third parties having special abilities (such as, perhaps, locking it in one mode for one round).
Post by: CobaltKobold on December 06, 2009, 12:02:59 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on December 06, 2009, 03:48:08 pm
@Vector Do I spot someone who's played the game? If not you should. It's fun and a bit twisted once you get past L1
Yup, I'm on L3 or L4, if I remember correctly. Started playing, and then suddenly math homework started stomping my spare time. I hope to finish 'er off over winter break.
Post by: dakarian on December 06, 2009, 03:55:35 pm
Well, as far as balancing, it gets more complex when you want most/all players to have an interest in various branes, right?
Also, a BIT twisted?
I was thinking that at first. However, I think I'll just try to ask for a decent amount of people and have third parties who make such gains. Beyond that, I'll just keep the system balanced within each Mode and have the town/mafia decide on the mode. I can already see players with good roles slightly prefer Empowered while bad roles would prefer Basic. Mafia will want Bastard best since Bastard games tend to be anti-town until they learn the trick. Only madmen would want Horrible Bastard (I fully expect Chaotic/Horrible to not show up at all).
@Leaf One big trick to that: it takes 1-2 days to get everyone to send something in (judging by night matters) and each Eversion point will only move the game one rank up or down. Besides, that means either the town gets their way most of the time or someone is given a role that gives them too much power. I can give some roles some feature like letting their vote count even if they aren't first. Figuring out what powers can exist and what roles could have them will be part of what I'll need help ironing out.
Post by: CobaltKobold on December 06, 2009, 03:57:52 pm
Only madmen would want Horrible Bastardbut but
Spoiler: game spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on December 06, 2009, 04:08:00 pm
Only madmen would want Horrible Bastard
I was actually thinking about how much I was looking forward to playing Horrible Bastard >_>
Post by: Cheeetar on December 06, 2009, 04:10:29 pm
Of course, I am much too lazy to do this myself.
Edit: Have less than 7 people win at the end of the game. Have less than 7 people dead by the end of the game.
And I forgot to mention this but the game will end after day 5.
Post by: Vector on December 06, 2009, 04:19:12 pm
An idea I've had for a mafia is Ulterior Motive Mafia. Everyone is third party except for a small (3 out of 15?) amount of townies. The townies are a survivor group and have to protect each other, while the third parties all have win conditions that make no sense, like getting at least 3 people to roleclaim or have somebody say that they obviously have a 'insert win condition here'. Also, with jesters, and some people would have night actions as well to support their motives.
Of course, I am much too lazy to do this myself.
... I'd love to play this, too, provided that we got some good balancing on it. The ridiculous win-conditions seem like they'd be particularly fun.
Post by: CobaltKobold on December 06, 2009, 04:22:32 pm
Post by: Vector on December 06, 2009, 04:25:53 pm
Post by: dakarian on December 06, 2009, 04:58:54 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on December 06, 2009, 05:53:31 pm
Post by: dakarian on December 07, 2009, 05:58:32 pm
ReVote:
The game is set to deadlines, but each RL day the votes are cleared. What's more, voting marks your attendance, NOT regular posts. To be considered 'active' you essentually need to vote, each day. It also means you'll need to restate your wish to vote for the person you are after.
Of course, there will be at least 24 hours in between a 'vote wipe' and End Of Day. It will, meanwhile, stop people from making meh posts to try to stay active and will help keep up debate as people have to now explain why they put their vote in each day. It'll also be MUCh easier to see who's inactive by just looking at the 'Not voting' list.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 07, 2009, 06:00:46 pm
Post by: dakarian on December 07, 2009, 07:44:27 pm
i.e. When wiping I'll do a last vote count to show what the vote count was last on before the wipe.
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 07, 2009, 11:59:50 pm
Post by: dakarian on December 08, 2009, 12:30:07 am
Post by: Vector on December 10, 2009, 04:39:33 am
Advance apologies to Pandarsenic. My stamina for that one is approaching zero.
The game is set to deadlines, but each RL day the votes are cleared. What's more, voting marks your attendance, NOT regular posts. To be considered 'active' you essentually need to vote, each day. It also means you'll need to restate your wish to vote for the person you are after.
Of course, there will be at least 24 hours in between a 'vote wipe' and End Of Day. It will, meanwhile, stop people from making meh posts to try to stay active and will help keep up debate as people have to now explain why they put their vote in each day. It'll also be MUCh easier to see who's inactive by just looking at the 'Not voting' list.
What you don't seem to understand is that you can make meh posts and vote, and that this is quickly going to turn into the cycle that showed up at the end of NSBMII (Vote, revote, vote, revote, rather than extension, extension, extension). The system is cumbersome and is just going to make the active players want to stop playing, I think.
Though this focuses the town more on lurkers, lurker-focus is going to kill games as well unless we say "Okay, scum and town are dedicated to getting the first 4 kills of the game off on lurkers so that at least the endgame will be fun." I just can't see this working.
We're all trying extremely hard to quantify lurking and convince the town to lurkerhunt and prod consistent lurkers into action. The thing is that most lurkers don't want to come be active. It'll work for someone like me, who gets so wrapped up in one game that he forgets about the other ones. It's not going to work for somebody who really isn't that interested in posting.
Players are fairly good at regulating your standard semi-lurker, i.e. JanusTwoFace, Mephansteras, and Rysith. They can't regulate the consistent lurker/noninformative poster in-game, and you can't either. Sometimes you really can only exclude people, or set a lurker limit--one known persistent lurker/meh poster per 2 other players above the initial 3. That means a 9-person game would have 3 lurkers max; 12-person would have 3, and so on.
It's the only thing I can think of, bar banning particular players from games in general.
Post by: Neruz on December 10, 2009, 05:02:31 am
Post by: Mr.Person on December 10, 2009, 06:02:02 am
Post by: dakarian on December 10, 2009, 09:06:57 am
As far as Mountainous.. I don't know. I'd rather put in a game with a guarenteed Mafia Roleblocker and Town Doc and leave it at that. Reason? The "kill the expert" syndrome. People get so hooked over seeing whether the 'top town' player dies that they drown in the WIFOM. "Why are you still alive?" is the phrase thrown around too much in such situations.
Doc helps to stop that. The fear of the Doc keeps the scum from auto-killing that person and the thought that the mafia feared the doc keeps the town from just thinking "You didn't die. Lynch em..just in case!" Doc isn't overpowered anyway in beginner games (it's the Cop you have to worry about).
So if I were to host something, it would be a Nearly-Mountainous game. Doc and Mafia Roleblocker, rest are vanilla.
I also have a 9p bastard mod in mind, but bastard mods are puzzle based, not behavior based.
So if you guys want, I can put up "Near-Mountainous Mafia" and "BellSounder Bastard Mod" up on the que.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 10, 2009, 01:18:08 pm
Post by: dakarian on December 10, 2009, 01:24:04 pm
I didn't expect the game to be that swingy. I WILL admit, though, that the interactions are awesomesauce. To be true, the 'addition's factor means I have a lot of control over how power roles work. The first round showed everyone why you DON'T take "F you all HAHAHA" roles. I notice now that the current role set is much more subdued.
Though I wish I didn't put that last clause in. All I'd need to do is make everyone 'False' to turn the game mountainous.
Post by: Mr.Person on December 10, 2009, 01:37:07 pm
Post by: GlyphGryph on December 10, 2009, 01:40:58 pm
Post by: Vector on December 10, 2009, 02:35:56 pm
So if I were to host something, it would be a Nearly-Mountainous game. Doc and Mafia Roleblocker, rest are vanilla.
I also have a 9p bastard mod in mind, but bastard mods are puzzle based, not behavior based.
Yes. Will in on both, no questions. Behavior is also a puzzle, which is why I'm so fond of the low-role games.
I got to admit, maybe because I'm still a bit of a new player, but I think while behaviorist stuff is fun, I like having roles and thus an element of tactical thinking for non-scum players as well.
I personally tend to get bored with the power role-heavy games quite quickly (there's a reason why I've only played one Paranormal, and asked for a replacement in it), and I'm fond of behaviorism partially because it involves unwinding other people's tactics. It's all quite entertaining. Ahh, Vector is a puzzle person...
Post by: CobaltKobold on December 10, 2009, 05:56:19 pm
*glances at KotM*I got what I wanted.
I didn't expect the game to be that swingy. I WILL admit, though, that the interactions are awesomesauce. To be true, the 'addition's factor means I have a lot of control over how power roles work. The first round showed everyone why you DON'T take "F you all HAHAHA" roles. I notice now that the current role set is much more subdued.
Quote
Though I wish I didn't put that last clause in. All I'd need to do is make everyone 'False' to turn the game mountainous.The mod would get lynched reeaaal quick when they figure that one out.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 10, 2009, 05:59:16 pm
Post by: Org on December 10, 2009, 06:07:48 pm
Post by: Vector on December 10, 2009, 09:31:23 pm
Vector: Then what's "tactical thinking" if not a puzzle? Consider if you're a doc.
It's a puzzle, but it's... well, ultimately, I'm okay with doctors (2-step thinking--who's scum, who will the scum kill). I don't like the heavy power role focus that games tend to end up with, the "there are things out there that don't make sense, and there's no good way to infer them." The "Hey, suddenly 3 people died, and I can't figure out why" drives me nuts.
I wouldn't say that power roles eliminate skill. They do add a different element though... and I agree with dak that we need more practise on day gaming.
No, they don't eliminate skill. I don't like feeling as though there's one thing going on--and then suddenly NIGHTPHASE, and everything is different and crappy.
In other words, I'd say that I like behavioral games because the flow of information isn't disrupted so much by power roles. Scum has more information than town; this entire game is based around picking up on the correct information streams. Stuff that disrupts those information streams really pisses me off right now, because I already have enough trouble finding them... well, anyway, enough about that.
I'm still not fond of power roles.
Post by: Neruz on December 10, 2009, 09:38:29 pm
Post by: Vector on December 10, 2009, 09:40:42 pm
I think i'll run a 7 - 9 person generic bastard mod mafia after MSPA mafia ends (which, at the rate it's going, could take awhile.)
... Vector will request that you wait on your small bastard mod until After New Year's, because he is crazy about them and would be sad to miss one.
Of course, given that we have a certain dearth of games running right now, it might be better for the board to just go ahead with any games we can get our hands on. Hmmm...
Post by: Zai on December 10, 2009, 09:54:16 pm
We need a Captain Planet Mafia...
Batman Mafia first.
I have several ideas for games, including the one I put up on the Threshold thread, which is essentially an extra closed setup; there are parts of some roles that are not revealed to the person who has them. Not parts like "Naive" or "Insane" or anything like that. These would be passive "powers" ( ;)) the players wouldn't know they have. In that way, it's semi-bastard.
However, I think there would be problems getting and keeping interest.
Post by: dakarian on December 11, 2009, 12:07:45 am
-Day-game heavy games similar in mindset to the Beginner Mafias
- Role-heavy standard games like Paranormal (finally got to join it and it IS interesting, though note I came in after it was rebalanced)
- puzzle style bastard mods
- 'ODD' games, like Wizard's dual
- insane CRAZINESS like KotM (which is going much better now that people calmed down a bit)
I like hosting them all, but my fav are the craziness ones. I already had a few WTF moments in KotM that I quite enjoy seeing :D
ONLY because it is different from most games, I'll go ahead and request the green light on Near-Mountainous. The Bastard game will very much wait until next year.
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 11, 2009, 12:35:45 am
*Cackles*
I'll let you all know when it's approaching a semblance of playability.
Post by: dakarian on December 11, 2009, 08:44:51 am
*struggles against the trap*
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 11, 2009, 09:28:33 am
Post by: dakarian on December 11, 2009, 09:49:58 am
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 11, 2009, 10:14:48 am
Post by: Leafsnail on December 11, 2009, 10:55:11 am
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 11, 2009, 11:00:29 am
Post by: Leafsnail on December 11, 2009, 11:12:54 am
Post by: dakarian on December 11, 2009, 12:39:17 pm
And MEH, jester offed me with a one-shot.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 11, 2009, 12:58:57 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 11, 2009, 01:03:06 pm
I did consider watching Vector instead, but "What the heck is the chance of webadict being able to mimic and kill at the same time?"
:3
Post by: Leafsnail on December 11, 2009, 01:04:19 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 11, 2009, 01:09:00 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on December 11, 2009, 01:10:05 pm
Post by: dakarian on December 11, 2009, 01:12:44 pm
I was thinking of mimicing with someone else, but decided to trust you instead. Funny thing is, if I DID do that I would've lived.
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 11, 2009, 01:22:01 pm
It would have been VERY clear something was up, but not immediately over.
Post by: CobaltKobold on December 11, 2009, 03:46:59 pm
Problem 1: Using a tvtropes link with your game will mean endless inactivity since everyone will keep getting stuck in there for hours rather than posting.I have considered, as scum, using tvtropes as a way to kill the town discussion. (Requires deadlines).
*struggles against the trap*
I realize now what I don't like about mafia.
Post by: Org on December 31, 2009, 11:32:28 pm
So, there will be to teams, made up of different players. Those two teams will most likely be the Reikland Reavers(Humans and the Orcland Raiders(Orcs). Two phases, both team phases, where the "coach" will decide to pick a player to blitz another, which will be decided by their Strength(like in regular Blood Bowl). During each phase, everyone chooses someone to foul, which will kill them(or something like that. Im trying to decide if I want to insta-kill the or what). Whoever's team has the ball last will win.
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 31, 2009, 11:35:58 pm
Post by: Zai on January 01, 2010, 12:20:11 am
Blood Bowl Mafia
So, there will be to teams, made up of different players. Those two teams will most likely be the Reikland Reavers(Humans and the Orcland Raiders(Orcs). Two phases, both team phases, where the "coach" will decide to pick a player to blitz another, which will be decided by their Strength(like in regular Blood Bowl). During each phase, everyone chooses someone to foul, which will kill them(or something like that. Im trying to decide if I want to insta-kill the or what). Whoever's team has the ball last will win.
This subforum and thread are for games of mafia, Org. Not regular forum games. This is nothing like mafia.
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 02, 2010, 06:45:54 pm
(hated being lynch makes night skip, beloved lynch makes day skip)
mislynches until mafialynch, followed by double night phase...? hmm.
2/9-2/8-2/7-2/6-2/5->1/2 Three mislynches standard, I guess, but mafia only get a kill if you kill one, or no-lynch. Odd.
Post by: Mr.Person on January 02, 2010, 06:47:27 pm
A gathering of the richest nobles in the land goes awry. It seems some villians have poisoned the wine. This is very rare magical wine that keeps the extremely aged nobles alive, so they must drink a glass of this wine every day to survive. Every night, the villians poison as many glasses as they choose. During the day, the nobles discuss matters and may freely switch glasses as often as they like, as long as both sides are willing. However, everybody MUST drink a glass.
The nobles have some tricks of their own. They might be able to poison their own glasses, they might have some anti-venom they can use, or they might just simply be able to watch one of the glasses to see who gets near it. There are also dastardly third-parties that have some tricks up their own sleeves, as well. There might be a lyncher who know's if their target's glass is poisonous or not. There might be a serial killer who can make a loud, attention grabbing explosion. During the panic, he has just enough time to switch a pair of drinks or poison one of the drinks without anybody noticing. One of the nobles may even have a special additive that will make the drinker become very submissive, almost as though they were in a cult.
Just an idea I had, but it seems fun. It seems very anti-town right now, so I'd probably throw in a good number of power roles. Take note, however, that there will be no town roles that can find a person's alignment directly. Watchers? Yes. Trackers? Yes. Cops? No. Role cops? Fuck no. Radioactive friendly neighbor? Are you kidding me?
Also, notice that the town has no way of killing people directly (there's no lynch), so I'd also make sure to throw in a good number of town-based killing roles.
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 02, 2010, 06:59:07 pm
Post by: Org on January 02, 2010, 08:03:31 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on January 02, 2010, 08:08:38 pm
I'll get Horrible Role Mafia up and running sometime soon.
Post by: Org on January 02, 2010, 08:09:42 pm
Post by: Vector on January 02, 2010, 08:20:45 pm
Post by: Org on January 02, 2010, 08:27:33 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 03, 2010, 02:38:54 am
WIFOM Mafia:
A gathering of the richest nobles in the land goes awry. It seems some villians have poisoned the wine. This is very rare magical wine that keeps the extremely aged nobles alive, so they must drink a glass of this wine every day to survive. Every night, the villians poison as many glasses as they choose. During the day, the nobles discuss matters and may freely switch glasses as often as they like, as long as both sides are willing. However, everybody MUST drink a glass.
The nobles have some tricks of their own. They might be able to poison their own glasses, they might have some anti-venom they can use, or they might just simply be able to watch one of the glasses to see who gets near it. There are also dastardly third-parties that have some tricks up their own sleeves, as well. There might be a lyncher who know's if their target's glass is poisonous or not. There might be a serial killer who can make a loud, attention grabbing explosion. During the panic, he has just enough time to switch a pair of drinks or poison one of the drinks without anybody noticing. One of the nobles may even have a special additive that will make the drinker become very submissive, almost as though they were in a cult.
Just an idea I had, but it seems fun. It seems very anti-town right now, so I'd probably throw in a good number of power roles. Take note, however, that there will be no town roles that can find a person's alignment directly. Watchers? Yes. Trackers? Yes. Cops? No. Role cops? Fuck no. Radioactive friendly neighbor? Are you kidding me?
Also, notice that the town has no way of killing people directly (there's no lynch), so I'd also make sure to throw in a good number of town-based killing roles.
I approve.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 03, 2010, 09:28:36 am
Post by: Apostolic Nihilist on January 03, 2010, 11:51:32 am
WIFOM mafia sounds immensely interesting.
Post by: Mr.Person on January 03, 2010, 01:13:41 pm
No, I think limiting it to one poisoning a night is probably best.
Post by: ToonyMan on January 03, 2010, 01:26:58 pm
Post by: Halmie on January 03, 2010, 08:46:00 pm
10 Jesters sounds incredibly amusing.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on January 03, 2010, 09:47:07 pm
There are two of them, and once per day they may each offer to "sell" someone a glass of wine. This trades a glass of wine with a random effect in it for the player's glass. They may not sell to themselves or each other. The purchase is unannounced, and the seller does not add to his sold count if either Seller drinks it. One Wine Seller would have effects with his wine that would be mafia-ally, the other would be the same, but town. Only one can win: by outselling the other.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 04, 2010, 07:42:53 am
Ditto ^.I saw a game with a mafia partnership and a so called "mime-team". The mafia won in the normal way while the mimes won when they were both lynched.
10 Jesters sounds incredibly amusing.
Post by: webadict on January 08, 2010, 10:29:43 am
There are certain rules, like if you're lynched, you remain that alignment. All inspects will take your alignment from before the switch. The mafia has to choose someone to kill. There are only a set number of mafia. You will not be told who your partner(s) is/are (Which means there will be a kill chooser among the mafia. You'll need to give a list of targets to avoid hitting your mafia-mates :P. Kills are done before the switch happens as well, so that Mafia won't be switched onto a target.) This means that in order to win, you must get down to ONLY all town or all mafia.
The order of operations would be:
Redirect
Roleblock
Protect
Kill
Inspect
Switch
I think it's a good idea, and takes a new turn on dak's KotM. Or KWN.
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 08, 2010, 06:24:23 pm
Post by: dakarian on January 08, 2010, 06:37:39 pm
OOO, will the roles randomize as well? One day a cop, the next the mafia, the next a townie?
Post by: Org on January 08, 2010, 07:33:29 pm
Aztec Mafia is up. Geez, you guys wanted it so bad I finally decided to run it and now only two people have joined.
Post by: Vector on January 08, 2010, 07:35:29 pm
How does one go about making stuff pinned, though?
Post by: RedWarrior0 on January 08, 2010, 07:36:40 pm
Post by: Vector on January 08, 2010, 07:38:19 pm
Toady
Right-o. Do you personally think it would be a good idea to do something like that (so you can quickly find out what's open and such), or would you rather keep to our current system?
Post by: Leafsnail on January 08, 2010, 07:42:22 pm
Post by: Org on January 08, 2010, 08:04:15 pm
Kinda thinking of bringing back Secret Agent Mafia aka Spy Mafia.
Post by: Vector on January 08, 2010, 08:30:13 pm
Also, Org, please wait on Secret Agent Mafia until you see what happens with the signups for Aztec. I think it's filling up slowly because there are so many games just beginning or in the mid-phases.
Post by: Halmie on January 08, 2010, 08:55:42 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 08, 2010, 08:57:36 pm
Catching up in Mafs in general soon.
Post by: Org on January 08, 2010, 08:58:20 pm
It would be, but the question is... who.
Also, Org, please wait on Secret Agent Mafia until you see what happens with the signups for Aztec. I think it's filling up slowly because there are so many games just beginning or in the mid-phases.
I know. Just said thinking about bringing it back.
Post by: Vector on January 08, 2010, 09:00:26 pm
Probaby dakarian. He has 6 topics per page on the first 3 pages, including this one. None of them spam. He is king of the mafia hosts.
Yeah, but he says he's trying to back off now that he has a Real Job (and he has been). We'd need someone really active in the subforum.
I know. Just said thinking about bringing it back.
Sorry for jumping on you, then :)
Post by: Org on January 08, 2010, 09:01:18 pm
But I have to figure a way to make it more unique.
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 08, 2010, 09:06:54 pm
Post by: Org on January 08, 2010, 09:10:10 pm
Maybe give the Secret Agents special items to choose from ala James Bond films?
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 08, 2010, 09:12:17 pm
Post by: Org on January 08, 2010, 09:12:58 pm
Post by: zchris13 on January 08, 2010, 09:41:44 pm
Hurr hurr.Needs more JAWS
Maybe give the Secret Agents special items to choose from ala James Bond films?
Post by: Zai on January 08, 2010, 09:57:31 pm
I meant more than one moderator for Mafia subforum.Wrong thread for discussing that. ;)
Aside from that. I don't think we need a sub-mod. Kurtulmak gives the right example of a good mod. None of us could even hope to be like him.
Post by: Cheddarius on January 08, 2010, 10:26:35 pm
Guys, this gives me a great idea. Someone should make a Mad Hatter Mafia where everyone is in a list, and sometimes they all move down the list one. Also, the roles would be switched if people shifted so much that they knew everyone's roles.Totes not going to run it though. Don't have the time, doncha know.
Post by: Vector on January 08, 2010, 10:27:37 pm
I'll go through here and make a list of the ideas that haven't yet come to fruition, at some point. There's a lot of good ones that someone wanted to get run, but never actually got going.
Post by: Org on January 08, 2010, 10:54:11 pm
You have the "town" which are zombies, and the "mafia" which are Survivors. The Survivors cannot kill at the beginning. They may search, which has a chance of them getting an item, like a Revolver, which gives them a one-shot kill, or something like that. They still have to worry about getting lynched. And stuff.
Post by: Cheddarius on January 08, 2010, 11:22:17 pm
Post by: Org on January 08, 2010, 11:26:26 pm
2-3 I think would be best. Not like they would live enough to get 6
Post by: Cheddarius on January 08, 2010, 11:36:56 pm
Post by: Org on January 08, 2010, 11:38:03 pm
Post by: Org on January 09, 2010, 11:47:02 am
How about a Zombie Apocalypse Mafia game later?Anyone else?
You have the "town" which are zombies, and the "mafia" which are Survivors. The Survivors cannot kill at the beginning. They may search, which has a chance of them getting an item, like a Revolver, which gives them a one-shot kill, or something like that. They still have to worry about getting lynched. And stuff.
Post by: webadict on January 09, 2010, 11:59:30 am
... It's not really Mafia related...How about a Zombie Apocalypse Mafia game later?Anyone else?
You have the "town" which are zombies, and the "mafia" which are Survivors. The Survivors cannot kill at the beginning. They may search, which has a chance of them getting an item, like a Revolver, which gives them a one-shot kill, or something like that. They still have to worry about getting lynched. And stuff.
Post by: Org on January 09, 2010, 12:12:38 pm
Post by: webadict on January 09, 2010, 12:17:05 pm
Post by: Org on January 09, 2010, 12:29:33 pm
... I don't like how you have to find your mafiakill has mafia.But it makes it interesting.
Post by: Org on January 09, 2010, 12:32:20 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on January 09, 2010, 12:48:40 pm
Now Web, in every mafia game, are there always equal sides?Not always, I guess. The SK is at an obvious disadvantage compared to the mafia, for instance.
Post by: webadict on January 09, 2010, 03:29:57 pm
For the most part. I try to make it so each side winds up in lylo. For the most part. Sometimes, things go very, very wrong. Sometimes, everything works out perfectly.Now Web, in every mafia game, are there always equal sides?Not always, I guess. The SK is at an obvious disadvantage compared to the mafia, for instance.
Post by: Org on January 12, 2010, 06:31:20 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on January 12, 2010, 07:46:41 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 16, 2010, 06:37:07 pm
Also, would anyone not interested in a semi-Bastard (my Illuminatus Mafia) be willing to have me tell them the idea and give me feedback on it?
Post by: Org on January 16, 2010, 06:55:27 pm
What is it?Also, would anyone not interested in a semi-Bastard (my Illuminatus Mafia) be willing to have me tell them the idea and give me feedback on it?
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 16, 2010, 07:02:52 pm
Post by: Org on January 16, 2010, 07:03:30 pm
Once Christmas finishes I will.
Post by: Org on January 16, 2010, 09:08:38 pm
How about a Zombie Apocalypse Mafia game later?How does this sound?
You have the "town" which are zombies, and the "mafia" which are Survivors. The Survivors cannot kill at the beginning. They may search, which has a chance of them getting an item, like a Revolver, which gives them a one-shot kill, or something like that. They still have to worry about getting lynched. And stuff.
Post by: Org on January 16, 2010, 09:36:20 pm
Post by: Zai on January 16, 2010, 10:39:40 pm
Errgh. I want to bring back my oldest mafia with some new rules.And what would said mafia be?
Post by: Vector on January 16, 2010, 11:03:03 pm
How about a Zombie Apocalypse Mafia game later?How does this sound?
You have the "town" which are zombies, and the "mafia" which are Survivors. The Survivors cannot kill at the beginning. They may search, which has a chance of them getting an item, like a Revolver, which gives them a one-shot kill, or something like that. They still have to worry about getting lynched. And stuff.
Not fabulous. What I really want to play is Aztec, to be honest.
Post by: Org on January 16, 2010, 11:28:10 pm
Post by: Org on January 16, 2010, 11:37:53 pm
I would wait for Aztec Mafia to be over. This is my oldest and somewhat successful mafia (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=35306.0)Errgh. I want to bring back my oldest mafia with some new rules.And what would said mafia be?
Post by: Neruz on January 17, 2010, 06:21:16 am
Mafia game, a list of roles is posted, say 20 roles, each role fills a slot. The players PM the mod with their role choice, each role can only be picked once, and if a role is picked more times than there are roles, the player is given a random role instead. After roles and teams are assigned, 'extras' are tacked on, such as Miller or Action Immune.
Ex, 11 man game might have this list:
Role List
Cop
Doctor
Redirector
Delayer
Watcher
Vigilante
Double Voter
Bus Driver
Townie
Townie
Townie
Townie
Townie
Townie
Townie
Townie
Townie
Townie
Townie
Townie
Modifiers
Miller
Death Miller
Action Immune
Secret
Another variation might be each player sends in say 3 roles, i then form the list from those roles.
A third option might be to give 'semi choice' with each player sending in 3 roles, and are assigned one of their picked roles at random
Thoughts?
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 17, 2010, 07:05:51 am
I was going to say something about Secret, but it actually works because you can't be sure if a particular role is taken.
What about Secret Redirector, Secret Double Voter, and Secret Bus Driver though?
Post by: Neruz on January 17, 2010, 07:10:03 am
Death Miller is indeed horrifically anti-town, were Death Miller to appear, i'd have to reduce the number of scum. In that 11 man game for example, normally i'd probably put 3 - 4 scum in, depending on how the power roles fell, but if there was a Death Miller in there then i'd have to reduce that to 2 - 3. Or possibly use multiple unaligned scum.
I'm looking for comments on the concept, not the specific example.
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 17, 2010, 07:18:22 am
Post by: Neruz on January 17, 2010, 07:21:22 am
Post by: Leafsnail on January 17, 2010, 07:48:29 am
Post by: Neruz on January 17, 2010, 07:52:39 am
Hmm, me likey. I could give a list of roles without townie, and duplicates get townie. Say 11 people, 10 roles, or something.
Nice idea.
Post by: Mr.Person on January 17, 2010, 11:46:34 pm
Post by: Neruz on January 18, 2010, 12:02:13 am
I think i'll run this after
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 18, 2010, 12:20:33 am
Post by: Neruz on January 18, 2010, 01:05:00 am
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 18, 2010, 01:07:49 am
Post by: Neruz on January 18, 2010, 01:26:24 am
Yes, both are good to deny to the other team and procure for your own. But maybe picking another role would be better...
Post by: Leafsnail on January 18, 2010, 11:30:30 am
Both are good to deny to the other team AND to procure for your own, I mean, making it somewhat moot.Yes, but if you think you can rely on another member of your team picking them, you might want to take another role.
Post by: Cheddarius on January 18, 2010, 11:53:51 am
Post by: Neruz on January 18, 2010, 08:45:21 pm
It also adds a bit of fun to the mass claim :D
Post by: Vector on January 20, 2010, 02:36:03 am
Would anyone be at all interested in such a game?
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 20, 2010, 04:07:42 am
Post by: Vector on January 20, 2010, 04:27:38 am
So DaKWN taken to 11- nay, taken to over 9000?
Hm, sort of. The point would be to create better integration between story and game; the result would be less sandbox, and a bit more of a puzzle with story-telling involved. The hope is that the flavortexting will not be considered a hindrance, but will instead turn into an integrated game mechanism in and of itself. Further, roles will be generated specifically for the purpose of working well with the flavortext aspect, rather than picking from a more standard assortment.
It would be very slow-paced, naturally.
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 20, 2010, 05:11:20 am
Post by: Cheddarius on January 20, 2010, 11:13:39 am
I might try it.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 20, 2010, 11:22:30 am
Post by: Vector on January 20, 2010, 02:21:36 pm
So, sortof like RPing mafia?
Yes and no. Really, it's more that interaction with the environment will alter the rules and influence the game in particular pre-defined ways, though there should be some definite day-game going on.
The purpose of the flavor-texting will be to remove the bastard from the mod and, with luck, some reasonably interesting/simple puzzles. I note that we've never really solved a bastard mod (yet--I consider Neruz' game more "insane" than "bastard"), so the hope is that I'll be able to construct something that does the gametype justice.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on January 20, 2010, 02:37:43 pm
Wikipedia about thirty times and picks the most workable ones.
Post by: Vector on January 20, 2010, 02:50:11 pm
I'd join if you'll let me. Also, iPick mafia. The mod huts the random button on
Wikipedia about thirty times and picks the most workable ones.
Hah! I'd play iPick. That sounds not only insane, but also hilarious.
Given the support, I'll probably start working on mechanics. Don't expect anything for a good long while, though. Current thought is that I'll be going with 9p and a somewhat odd day-end system. There will probably also be play during some of the nights, rather than the typical nightphase where everyone goes to bed.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 20, 2010, 02:52:17 pm
Also, my iPick role is probably going to be something like the Tzuf Dvash Synagogue.
Post by: Vector on January 20, 2010, 02:59:53 pm
So... mafia with extra roleplaying elements and puzzles?
Also, my iPick role is probably going to be something like the Tzuf Dvash Synagogue.
Sure, why not. I think the main thing I'm trying to do here is create a sense of "integrated" rather than "extra." In KWN:DE, the flavortext was a distraction; in IMBML(BM(M)), we never really figured it out (it wasn't supposed to be part of the game, anyway).
Well, anyway. We'll see how its image changes as I work on it, I suppose.
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 20, 2010, 03:09:42 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on January 20, 2010, 03:09:53 pm
Nomic
Mafia (party game)
Ouagadougou
Slaves to Armok II: Dwarf Fortress
Puzzle
Post by: Vector on January 20, 2010, 03:12:48 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 20, 2010, 03:18:32 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yeah, I'm totally going to run this. XD
Post by: Leafsnail on January 20, 2010, 03:28:25 pm
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 20, 2010, 04:05:50 pm
Post by: Org on January 23, 2010, 04:48:43 pm
Montezuma might be an interesting Unique Traitor Aztec.
Since they used him as a puppet. Hmm.
Post by: Vector on January 23, 2010, 04:54:57 pm
Post by: Org on January 23, 2010, 04:58:15 pm
Post by: dakarian on January 25, 2010, 10:39:21 pm
The goal I'm trying to reach is a game where your day game is even more important than the final outcome. There's two forms that come in my head: with both actually being seperately viable (meaning there COULD be two different games running). Note that all will have a requirement of Intermediate mafia kill or WORSE.
1: 9 players, 2 scum, True Mountainous.
Specialized rules:
- Each day at 9pm EST, the vote count is wiped. To be marked as 'active' you MUST do two things:
1. Vote for someone. It can be the same person each time but it cannot be for yourself or No Lynch.
2. State your reason for voting for that person.
- The vote count will contain BOTH the vote AND a quick blurb about your reason
- Frivolous votes or random votes will be accepted Day 1 only. The host will be the final say on this matter.
-Perfect attendance (note that this will mean vote WITH reason each day) will result in a bonus in your grade (from, for example, a C to a B)
Second Idea: 3 townies, + X panelists
Nightless, with 3 days
- The first day, one person is scum while the other two are town. They they debate and hunt: the town attempting to lynch the mafia while the mafia attempts to avoid being lynched. Whoever is lynched does not roleflip.
- The next day, all 3 players return with a different person being scum. The same occurs. This repeats for the third day until all three people have had a turn as scum.
- During this time, the panelists speak ONLY on quicktopic, discussing the game as it goes on. Once all three days are over, the each panelist decides who they believe was scum on each day.
Points are then awarded as follows:
Involving the Lynch:
1 point for both townies if they lynch the mafia.
1 point to the mafia if they manage to avoid the lynch.
Involving the Panelists:
1 point for the townies for each panelist that chooses the mafia correctly
1 point to the mafia for each panelist that chooses the wrong person as mafia.
Note that this goes for each of the three days: example
Dakarian, Litia, and Org are players. Webadict and Pandarsenic are panelists.
Day 1: Dakarian is scum. Dakarian is lynched.
- Litia and Org get a point
Day 2: Litia is scum, Org is lynched.
- Litia gets a point.
Day 3: Org is scum, Dakarian is lynched
- Org gets a point.
Panelists go up and decide who they think is scum
Webadict: D1-Dakarian, D2-Org, D3-Litia
- Litia/Org gets a point for D1, Litia gets a point for D2, Org gets a point for D3
Pandarsenic: D1-Dakarian, D2-Litia, D3-Org
- Litia/Org gets a point D1, Dakarian/Org for D2, Dakarian/Litia for D3
-result: Dakarian with 2 points, Litia and Org with 6 points.
-Game could either end in a draw or, perhaps, Litia and Org run a sudden death day where they have to convince the panelists directly who between the two are scum (one is randomly picked).
Post by: Vector on January 25, 2010, 11:11:41 pm
What I'm wondering, though, is how you're going to determine "Intermediate mafia skill."
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 26, 2010, 01:03:17 am
The idea: BOOT CAMP MAFIA!Seven immediately disqualified!
The goal I'm trying to reach is a game where your day game is even more important than the final outcome. There's two forms that come in my head: with both actually being seperately viable (meaning there COULD be two different games running). Note that all will have a requirement of Intermediate mafia kill or WORSE.
1: 9 players, 2 scum, True Mountainous.
Specialized rules:
- Each day at 9pm EST, the vote count is wiped. To be marked as 'active' you MUST do two things:
Also, this daily vote thing has not appeared to work yet, why should it work now?
counterproposal: Strategic mafia. Lurking for X gains one mafiakill. Conclusively showing someone to be acting scummy (obviously, must be a new case) generates a permanent vote on that person, regardless of their alignment. Deadlines, as hammers are not going to work with fluctuating votecounts.
Post by: Vector on January 26, 2010, 01:08:29 am
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 26, 2010, 01:11:14 am
Post by: Vector on January 26, 2010, 01:14:33 am
I'd swear Dak has run two games with that "feature". King of the Mafia?
KotM ran with it briefly.
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 26, 2010, 01:26:11 am
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 26, 2010, 01:28:49 am
Post by: dakarian on January 26, 2010, 02:03:22 am
The other game that had ANYTHING like it was KWN:DE and that was a 24 hour post-or-die requirement.
With a Mountainous setting I believe it should work much better.
Post by: Mr.Person on January 26, 2010, 03:06:29 am
For WIFOM's sake, make it totally random who's the scum each round. Same guy could be scum 3 times in a row, it could be 3 different guys, you gotta figure it out.
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 26, 2010, 04:07:16 am
For extra fun, make the 3 players me, Webadict, and Dak or something. XD
Post by: dakarian on January 26, 2010, 09:33:26 am
a battle between me, Pandar, and Web... that might work. In the least, I won't have to worry about being NKed N1 (yes, it IS getting to me now since uPICK was the last finished game where I lasted past D1, town or scum-and Para 12, but only because there were no town vigs.)
So far it sounds like both games might be viable.
Sidenote: 'intermediate mafia playing'. I think of it almost like how I thought of the S ranks: If I were to ask who are the 'advanced' players everyone would pretty much give me the same people...all others would be 'intermediate'. Also, anyone Rank B or below would be let in as well.
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2010, 09:56:28 am
Post by: RedWarrior0 on January 26, 2010, 06:04:27 pm
Jurors could be a right extended to S-Ranks.
Also, the one with jurors could be extended into two layers of scum: One round with more players and jurors. Maybe 5 of each, but it would have to be the same number. Some jurors are mafia-ally, some are lyncher, some are "Protector", i.e. one player must survive. Insanity could insue. It's basically a mafia game about a mafia game.
Post by: Org on January 26, 2010, 06:08:44 pm
Just sayin web.
Post by: Vector on January 26, 2010, 06:12:55 pm
Romeo and Juliet Mafia. NEEDS TO HAPPEN
Just sayin web.
... Huh? Is this an old game which never ran, or something?
Post by: Org on January 26, 2010, 06:29:37 pm
Post by: Org on January 26, 2010, 06:45:16 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on January 26, 2010, 07:47:45 pm
...Hmmmmm. Shakespeare Mafia....
Aztec mafia is already fulfilling our "lots of killing roles" requirement very well, thank you.
Post by: Org on January 26, 2010, 07:54:50 pm
Post by: SirBayer on January 26, 2010, 07:55:26 pm
1. I'm considering continuing the fairly-simple premise from BMVIII, essentially complicating it only in that there would be a galaxy to more-or-less conquer, depending not only on games of Mafia, but of other varieties as well.
2. Garry's Mod Mafia! Simple, simple Mafia, but minus Flavor-text and plus Flavor-videos rendered in G-Mod. it's really an add-on that could be made to any basic mafia game.
Post by: Org on January 26, 2010, 07:56:00 pm
Post by: webadict on January 26, 2010, 07:57:05 pm
Yeah. Web said he had to fix some sort of broken-ness within the game and never finished. : (The problem with it was that there was no real Day game required. But how about this: I'll TRY to fix it. We'll see how it goes. I'm not promising anything, but if I get it to work, I'll run it.
Post by: SirBayer on January 26, 2010, 07:58:33 pm
Post by: Org on January 26, 2010, 08:03:50 pm
Hell yeah. Hopefully it happens. Get Inaluct in that.Yeah. Web said he had to fix some sort of broken-ness within the game and never finished. : (The problem with it was that there was no real Day game required. But how about this: I'll TRY to fix it. We'll see how it goes. I'm not promising anything, but if I get it to work, I'll run it.
And claim Mercutio.
Post by: Mr.Person on January 26, 2010, 08:56:25 pm
Org, I don't technically OWN Half-Life, so it wouldn't have Gordon Freeman... but pretty much otherwise, yeah. Garry's Mod.
Did you want to run the game literally inside Garry's Mod? You know what, that could actually fucking work.
Post by: SirBayer on January 26, 2010, 10:31:01 pm
So, y'know, night-killing would be enacted out in hilarious detail, IE a man being crushed by a giant robot.
Post by: dakarian on January 26, 2010, 11:32:17 pm
That ALSO kicks ass. In truth, you could incorporate it into ANY mafia game. Meh, even Mountainous can work with it.
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 27, 2010, 05:23:24 am
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 27, 2010, 06:10:33 am
Org, I don't technically OWN Half-Life, so it wouldn't have Gordon Freeman... but pretty much otherwise, yeah. Garry's Mod.
I have Half-Life2, Portal, etc.
You're seriously going to make me help you with this, aren't you. :I
Post by: Leafsnail on January 28, 2010, 12:19:46 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on January 28, 2010, 12:23:02 pm
I'd quite like to run a Monks and Masons type game, as I've always found them quite interesting. The idea is that there are two scumgroups (Mafia and Werewolves) and two confirmed-type groups (Masons and Monks). The mason knows their partner isn't a mafia member, while the monks know their partner isn't a werewolf. However, mafia members can be monks, and werwolves can be masons.
Now THAT'S a good one. Simple, elegant, WIFOMy, yet information is known. This is a good setup, kids.
Post by: webadict on January 28, 2010, 12:28:53 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on January 28, 2010, 01:13:41 pm
But it'd require at least... I'd say 12 people with 2-player scum groups.That's the normal setup, yes. And then mason pairs with the possibility of werewolf masons or mafia monks.
I've seen ones where the first crosskill of each side are negated (so the first time a mafia kills a werewolf and the first time a werewolf kills a mafia don't work).
Post by: webadict on January 28, 2010, 05:36:47 pm
It involves several parties. All of them, in fact: Town, Mafia, SK, Cult, Lyncher, Mafia-ally, Survivor, and Jester.
Each party only has one person in them. Lynches are forced.
How's it sound?
Post by: Org on January 28, 2010, 05:47:57 pm
But so fun.
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 28, 2010, 05:54:16 pm
Post by: Vector on January 28, 2010, 05:56:57 pm
Post by: webadict on January 28, 2010, 06:00:22 pm
Cult would win, since there's no reason for anyone to be immune.Mafia and SK might be immune. I think I'll have them be.
Cult is led by leader, who kills all their followers when killed.
Also, I'm thinking Mafia-ally might turn into Survivor if Mafia is killed, (Like Lyncher becomes Town if Lynchee is killed [BTW, The Lyncher's target is always going to be the Town.])
But, it looks like it's a good idea.
Post by: Org on January 28, 2010, 06:02:10 pm
Post by: Org on January 28, 2010, 06:03:42 pm
Post by: Vector on January 28, 2010, 06:04:31 pm
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 28, 2010, 06:05:25 pm
My point is, since the Mafia hasn't actually got any information on other players, that isn't why they're immune.Cult would win, since there's no reason for anyone to be immune.Mafia and SK might be immune. I think I'll have them be.
Post by: Org on January 28, 2010, 06:06:18 pm
Post by: webadict on January 28, 2010, 06:20:17 pm
Yeah, but I want at least the Mafia to be Immune. Because the Mafia-ally actually has the hardest time winning. The SK I want immune so there will be more kills.My point is, since the Mafia hasn't actually got any information on other players, that isn't why they're immune.Cult would win, since there's no reason for anyone to be immune.Mafia and SK might be immune. I think I'll have them be.
And just because they don't have information, doesn't mean it makes everyone able to be converted.
Post by: Org on January 28, 2010, 07:16:37 pm
A gathering of the richest nobles in the land goes awry. It seems some villians have poisoned the wine. This is very rare magical wine that keeps the extremely aged nobles alive, so they must drink a glass of this wine every day to survive. Every night, the villians poison as many glasses as they choose. During the day, the nobles discuss matters and may freely switch glasses as often as they like, as long as both sides are willing. However, everybody MUST drink a glass.
Roles
Nobleman
You are a Nobleman! You must drink your wine and survive the villains!
Active Power
-
Passive Power
-
Win Condition
Noble Win
Royal Wine Taster
You are the Wine Taster, a respected person for preventing the deaths of nobles.
Active Power
-Wine Taster:At the end of a Night, you may drink a person's wine, and they will be served a new one, thus preventing their death.
Passive Power
-
Win Condition
Noble Win
Royal Herbalist
You are the Herbalist, a medicine man.
Active Power
-Antidote(2):You may drop two antidotes in different glasses, destroying any poison that may have been in them, as well as preventing the Slow Poison.
Passive Power
-
Win Condition
Noble Win
Royal Fool
You are the Fool, a man of ifinite jest, of most excelent fancy.
Active Power
-Joke:You may target a person, stopping them from doing any action by telling your excellent jokes.
Passive Power
-Disliked:However, not many people like you, as you are not serious. You count as having one extra vote when settling ties.
Win Condition
Noble Win
Royal Winekeeper
You are the Winekeeper.
Active Power
-Watchful:You may target one person, and you will watch their glass, and if anyone puts something in it, you will know.
Passive Power
-
Win Condition
Noble Win
Royal Avenger
Your father has died due to the Villains. Luckily, you found some of their poisons.
Active Power
-Poison(1):You may poison a glass, with these different poisons:
--Antagonizing Poison:This poison kills slowly, and will kill the drinker at the end of the next day.
--Dream Poison:This poison does not kill, however, it will knock a person out, effectively role-blocking them.
Passive Power
-
Win Condition
Noble Win
Avenged-You must kill one Villain.
Villainous Nobleman
You are a Villain.
Active Power
-Poison(1):You may poison a glass, with these different poisons:
--Dread Poison:This poison kills after being drunk.
--Antagonizing Poison:This poison kills slowly, and will kill the drinker at the end of the next day.
--Dream Poison:This poison does not kill, however, it will knock a person out, effectively role-blocking them.
Passive Power
-
Win Condition
Villain Win
Villainous Inventor Noble
You are the Villainous Inventor, with a few inventions at your side.
Active Power
-Poison(1):You may poison a glass, with these different poisons:
--Dread Poison:This poison kills after being drunk.
--Antagonizing Poison:This poison kills slowly, and will kill the drinker at the end of the next day.
--Dream Poison:This poison does not kill, however, it will knock a person
-Invetion(1):You may choose one of the following inventions, at the beginning of the game:
--Crude Explosive:The bomb goes off, anytime during the day, and the Inventor may switch glasses during the panic.
--Wine Purifier:The Wine Purifier 2000 has a 50% chance of purifying any poison from your glass. This is a passive power.
Passive Powers
-
Win Condition
Villain Win
Villainous Poison Master
You are a master of poisons, working with the Villains.
Active Power
-Poison(2):You may poison a glass, or you can put an antidote in, with these different poisons:
--Dread Poison:This poison kills after being drunk.
--Antagonizing Poison:This poison kills slowly, and will kill the drinker at the end of the next day.
--Dream Poison:This poison does not kill, however, it will knock a person out, effectively role-blocking them.
--Antidote:You may drop two antidotes in different glasses, destroying any poison that may have been in them, as well as preventing the Slow Poison.
Passive Power
-
Win Condition
Villain Win
Post by: Cheddarius on January 28, 2010, 07:38:44 pm
Does the Winetaster die if he drinks a poisoned glass?
What's the point of the Fool being disliked?
Does Poison(1) mean you can only use it once?
Do the villains know who each other are like in normal Mafia? Otherwise, the Antidoting seems excessive against town, unless you have several Avengers.
How about Mad Hatter Mafia where you switch abilities or have a bunch of roleswitch abilities?
Post by: Org on January 28, 2010, 07:40:15 pm
Pretty cool.Answeresd
Does the Winetaster die if he drinks a poisoned glass? Yes
What's the point of the Fool being disliked? Voting
Does Poison(1) mean you can only use it once? Once per night
Do the villains know who each other are like in normal Mafia? Otherwise, the Antidoting seems excessive against town, unless you have several Avengers. Yes.
How about Mad Hatter Mafia where you switch abilities or have a bunch of roleswitch abilities?
Post by: Mr.Person on January 28, 2010, 07:52:17 pm
Post by: Org on January 28, 2010, 07:53:19 pm
I was planning on running it at some point in the far future, but if you think you can get the people up, go ahead and run it, Org. I'll run a Quantum Mafia or something, I dunno.You can take my roles and run it. Its your idea. I just finished it.
Post by: Mr.Person on January 28, 2010, 07:55:51 pm
I was planning on running it at some point in the far future, but if you think you can get the people up, go ahead and run it, Org. I'll run a Quantum Mafia or something, I dunno.You can take my roles and run it. Its your idea. I just finished it.
If I ran it, it would be an open setup. Much easier on me.
Post by: Vector on January 28, 2010, 08:41:46 pm
Post by: Cheddarius on January 28, 2010, 09:05:39 pm
Also nobody has a passive power.
Post by: Org on January 28, 2010, 09:07:46 pm
Better?Pretty cool.Answeresd
Does the Winetaster die if he drinks a poisoned glass? Yes
What's the point of the Fool being disliked? Voting
Does Poison(1) mean you can only use it once? Once per night
Do the villains know who each other are like in normal Mafia? Otherwise, the Antidoting seems excessive against town, unless you have several Avengers. Yes.
How about Mad Hatter Mafia where you switch abilities or have a bunch of roleswitch abilities?
Post by: Cheddarius on January 28, 2010, 09:15:34 pm
Post by: SirBayer on January 29, 2010, 12:57:02 pm
Org, I don't technically OWN Half-Life, so it wouldn't have Gordon Freeman... but pretty much otherwise, yeah. Garry's Mod.
I have Half-Life2, Portal, etc.
You're seriously going to make me help you with this, aren't you. :I
Depends, how decent is your video recording software?
I just realized mine is shit, and the videos look like crap. 20 FPS... sheesh.
Post by: Squeegy on February 01, 2010, 08:16:11 pm
Post by: ExKirby on February 02, 2010, 02:34:22 am
I think that time travel mafia would be fun to run.I tried that once. Maybe I should try again after Aztec?
Post by: Vector on February 02, 2010, 02:36:48 am
I think that time travel mafia would be fun to run.I tried that once. Maybe I should try again after Aztec?
That sort of game is really rough to mod... why don't you do the official signups for BSER after we have space?
(I think GlyphGryph's been waiting for a while, but after he's done you should probably be able to get a slot)
Post by: ExKirby on February 02, 2010, 01:38:41 pm
...I could do a 2-in-1? Time Travel BSER.I think that time travel mafia would be fun to run.I tried that once. Maybe I should try again after Aztec?
That sort of game is really rough to mod... why don't you do the official signups for BSER after we have space?
(I think GlyphGryph's been waiting for a while, but after he's done you should probably be able to get a slot)
Post by: dakarian on February 02, 2010, 03:24:51 pm
I'll let you guys decide when Boot Camp/Sudden Death can start.
Remove Eversion from the list completely. I like the concept but I'm starting to get a better handle on what games work and what don't and OVERLY complicated doesn't work.
Instead, BYOR: Choices can go into the que, though that won't run until Webadict and ExKirby's games are done.
Of course, I always have other Bastard Puzzles in my head but bay 12 probably needs a good rest from them for now (not sure how well Bellsounder was received)
Post by: Mr.Person on February 02, 2010, 03:36:26 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 02, 2010, 04:01:19 pm
Post by: Vector on February 02, 2010, 04:28:07 pm
I think one problem with bastard mod games is that there's rarely any clues to the solution, so it often because a guessing game where if you guess right, you win and if you guess wrong, you lose.
This. 1000% this. It's the main reason why I'm spending so long fiddling with Prism, and considering expanding it into a game with more players: it shouldn't be a guessing-game so much as an exploration-game.
Remove Eversion from the list completely. I like the concept but I'm starting to get a better handle on what games work and what don't and OVERLY complicated doesn't work.
[...]
Of course, I always have other Bastard Puzzles in my head but bay 12 probably needs a good rest from them for now (not sure how well Bellsounder was received)
I enjoyed it, but got extremely pissed off by the lurkers/terrible town coordination. It'd be good to keep running bastard mods, but I generally feel like Bay12 needs to figure out how to make them. Running a mafia game is a lot like programming: you've got to make a good user interface or no one will use your app. Most mafia games come with a standard "user interface package," but bastard mods aren't really a mafia game, so they need a different UI to reflect that. It's hard enough to scumhunt, but it's even harder to scumhunt while trying to figure out a puzzle with no clues.
Had you picked something other than bells--candles being lit, or something--it would have been almost impossible. You say it was a "red herring," but it was actually a rather large symbolic clue. I'm convinced that the use of bells was the key to the town getting as far as it did.
Sad about the lack of Eversion, but oh well.
...I could do a 2-in-1? Time Travel BSER.
Dude, no >_> As Dakarian is saying above, that's entirely too much crazy.
I suppose that's one way in which Bellsounder was good - if you got it wrong, you still had another 4 chances to get it right. Indeed, the bastard element was cracked by Webadict.
Don't give him so much credit.
Mr. Person cracked it first (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=47778.msg976046#msg976046). Then I did (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=47778.msg976206#msg976206). Then Webadict (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=47778.msg977876#msg977876). Town did quite well on the puzzle-solving element... just not so well on the scumhunting part >_>
Also:
Dakarian, you need to post that stuff in the Games Threshold list. You may note that you're not going to get any headway over here.
Post by: dakarian on February 02, 2010, 04:39:33 pm
Yah, when I started seeing the lurkings and, worse, the nights where some people didn't send actions, I knew things would turn ugly. In truth, Day 5's 'silent town' at the end really sealed the deal: you guys HAD the right mentality (organize yourselves and set up a chain death) that would've cracked it (wouldn't have WON, but you would've seen more than enough to figure out there was something wrong with Leafsnail, which was really the piece you still needed to win). Day 6 was WAYY too late: by then you needed the entire puzzle solved.
As for Eversion.. it's too much of a Jack. At times it would play completely normal while other times it would play crazy-go-nutz. A game really needs to be set in one or the other to get the proper mindset and playerbase. Besides, I keep pushing it back to do other games instead :P.
On the puzzle vs scum: I guess it comes back to something I said earlier: People can puzzle hunt, or scumhunt, but they can't do both. The game really DID need for you to scumhunt (to find Leafsnail) then puzzle hunt (to figure out how to stop him). I actually expected Leaf to be outted first after 3 bells or so, then for him to have to try to sneak the last two bells in while you guys try to figure out the puzzle.
Lastly
#&%&@*$*#)*%@($
I THOUGHT THIS WAS THE THRESHOLD LIST!
Meh and double meh.
Lastly: Really about the bells? I kind of like that, but I don't have a clue how bells over anything else gave out any info.
Post by: Vector on February 02, 2010, 04:56:18 pm
As for Eversion.. it's too much of a Jack. At times it would play completely normal while other times it would play crazy-go-nutz. A game really needs to be set in one or the other to get the proper mindset and playerbase. Besides, I keep pushing it back to do other games instead :P.
[...]
Lastly: Really about the bells? I kind of like that, but I don't have a clue how bells over anything else gave out any info.
Fair enough--I forgot that different people tend to enjoy playing different games.
As far as the bells go, someone brought up the Hunchback of Notre Dame, in which there's a passage about the different uses of bells--i.e., deaths, births, weddings, sending people off to sea, blah blah blah. Further, you have the typical "knell" and "saved by the bell" sayings, which further ties into the death/resurrection theme.
I remember thinking multiple times of this quotation from Macbeth, as well:
Quote from: Shakespeare
I go, and it is done; the bell invites me.
Hear it not, Duncan, for it is a knell
That summons thee to heaven, or to hell.
That directed me in the puzzle-cracking direction.
If you'd had candles being blown out, flowers blooming, or flowers dying, I might have gotten somewhere. Lit candles, and I would have been completely screwed.
Post by: Mr.Person on February 02, 2010, 05:42:54 pm
I think that's what it comes down to. If you're running a bastard mod just for the sake of having weird rules that you want the players to figure out, just cut to the chase and run a mountainous with the town after a lone serial killer. I can't think of a single bastard mod I've ever seen where the hidden rules added to the game instead of just distracting the players. So until I say otherwise, I won't be playing in any puzzle-based bastard mod games, and I highly recommend that you guys avoid running more in the future. If you really insist on it, send me a copy of the game so I
If you guys do run more, the only advise I can offer is to just ignore the rules and shit: Find and lynch the scum. Don't do ANYTHING except vote for who you think is scum and any night action(s) you might have. Hell, I dare say, unless you have a good reason to, don't even do your night actions. Do NOT unvote, random vote, no lynch, let anything fly by you, lurk, trust any "inspections" you might have, assume anything about your win condition or ignore Webadict.
Post by: Vector on February 02, 2010, 06:01:56 pm
I think that's what it comes down to. If you're running a bastard mod just for the sake of having weird rules that you want the players to figure out, just cut to the chase and run a mountainous with the town after a lone serial killer. I can't think of a single bastard mod I've ever seen where the hidden rules added to the game instead of just distracting the players. So until I say otherwise, I won't be playing in any puzzle-based bastard mod games, and I highly recommend that you guys avoid running more in the future.
If you guys do run more, the only advise I can offer is to just ignore the rules and shit: Find and lynch the scum. Don't do ANYTHING except vote for who you think is scum and any night action(s) you might have. Hell, I dare say, unless you have a good reason to, don't even do your night actions.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. We've had a little run of terrible bastard mods with weird mechanics and pretty much no ability to figure out what was going on. Puzzle-based bastard mods with fairly simple setups seem to work fine, especially since we're now having instances of the town figuring out what's going on.
In other words, total bastard is somewhat unworkable, but semi-bastard is nice. Part of the point is the distraction. It's fun to try to work out what's going on in multiple levels--which players are scum, and how the game works, and so on.
What such a game needs, however, is long days, lots of kill-block capability, and a fair number of hints (if not mechanics to help both town and scum figure out the rules). I think a lot of the trouble that we're seeing is that the scum knows too much, adding to their inherent advantage, rather than leaving them as clueless as everyone else and needing to post/help so that they, too, can figure out what's happening.
Post by: dakarian on February 02, 2010, 06:19:35 pm
Essentually, you are saying that we shouldn't run a bastard mod at all since the entire POINT to them is 'hidden rules that distract the players'.
Sidenote: the last paragraph depends on the game, but would've won it for both of my B mods I think. You wouldn't be able to stop the Endless Witch, BUT finding him would've been a great help. For the other B mod, I had actually set it so that just ignoring everything and playing it mountainous would've let you win easily.
Though I still say that the inactivity ruined you more in Bellsounder more than anything.
Fakeedit:
I also figured out that MASS mechanics stinks but more simple setups work well. You CAN give the mafia crazier roles since they have more time to decide but the town needs something more simple. Bellsounder, for example, didn't require the town to know HOW the mafia works just that they were in the way. I make note that it was figured out that the mafia needed to die first.
It's tricky balancing things. If the game goes too short, the town has no time to figure things out. If too long, then the town goes half dead. A mafia with too little information will mess up too easily and a town with too little information will go all over the place testing things they shouldn't bother with.
I do believe that the mafia should remain the 'knowledgable ones', especially in games where they can't win if the town knows the secret.
If I do consider something, perhaps fully eliminate scumhunting from the win condition: have it so that the town can win even if they never find out the scum. Then it's a match to see if the scum can stop the town from figuring out the puzzle. It still makes it a 'mafia' since it's 'informed majority/uninformed majority' even if the game works completely different from a normal style.
Sidenote: bastard mods are a particular taste. Many people who like Mafia will HATE all forms of Bastard Mods while some will hate mafia but LOVE Bastards.
Post by: Mr.Person on February 02, 2010, 06:27:41 pm
Hints
Post by: Leafsnail on February 02, 2010, 06:29:57 pm
Although - if you hadn't worked out the puzzle and just lynched me every day, I would've won. It would've taken about 50 days, but I would've won in the end :P.
Post by: CobaltKobold on February 02, 2010, 07:24:29 pm
I think one problem with bastard mod games is that there's rarely any clues to the solution, so it often because a guessing game where if you guess right, you win and if you guess wrong, you lose.I can, without giving much away, point out that this is 86%* false in a certain game.
Hold on to that thought.Quote from: ShakespeareI go, and it is done; the bell invites me.
Hear it not, Duncan, for it is a knell
That summons thee to heaven, or to hell.
That directed me in the puzzle-cracking direction.
Post by: Neruz on February 02, 2010, 07:34:15 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on February 03, 2010, 08:29:36 pm
I can't think of a single bastard mod I've ever seen where the hidden rules added to the game instead of just distracting the players.
;_;
Post by: CobaltKobold on February 03, 2010, 11:56:13 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 04, 2010, 11:32:28 am
Post by: Mr.Person on February 04, 2010, 11:39:34 am
I can't think of a single bastard mod I've ever seen where the hidden rules added to the game instead of just distracting the players.
;_;
If you want to prove my ass wrong, point out a game where you think the rules added to the game. Personally, I'm fine with saying the rules of KWN didn't hurt the game and maybe helped, I dunno. We didn't really play it the "right" way, if you catch my drift. It ended kind of early, so it's hard to judge. One thing that helped was, I think, the fact that all the rules were basically a giant flashing neon sign that said "THIS SIGN IS MEANT TO DISTRACT YOU"
Post by: Pandarsenic on February 04, 2010, 12:46:42 pm
Of course, all that was really necessary was for everyone to immediately vote for Webadict and not unvote him - the weird vote counts only showed up if someone unvoted him. :D
Post by: dakarian on February 04, 2010, 01:43:33 pm
Btw, the rules DID distract everyone. If everyone ignored the WIFOM and just went to lynch web like they wanted to, the game would've ended D1.
If you want games where the rules do NOT distract, then you need to look to non-bastard games with a quirk. Then you'll have games like Paranormal, Parallel, Wizard's Dual, and a good few other quirky but non-bastard games.
The entire POINT to Bastard Games is to *)(# with the players' minds. That's WHY they are called 'bastard mods': it's games where the mod is literally being a Bastard.
Sidenote: Most of our 'bastard' games are really mild. GlyphGryph's Quick Bastard is, IMO, an honest to true Bastard Mod. A mod where the town can play it like a normal mafia game and win is NOT a Bastard.
Post by: Mr.Person on February 04, 2010, 02:42:46 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on February 04, 2010, 03:01:15 pm
Mr.Person, you're saying that Bastard Mod games are fine but they're bad. Make up your mind? :c
Post by: Vector on February 04, 2010, 03:16:16 pm
I think that a lot of the problem is that people here haven't yet figured out how to do two things: 1. write a solid user interface in their games and 2. play games while paying attention to multiple things simultaneously. We've fixed our daygame to the point where most games aren't a complete walletful of fail, but we haven't quite figured out how to interact with the bastard mod interface.
We'll get there eventually.
Post by: Pandarsenic on February 04, 2010, 03:19:23 pm
No idea what the actual roles would be, but it'd be a silly and awesome idea. <_<
Post by: dakarian on February 04, 2010, 04:07:59 pm
I think what you, Mr.Person, is really after is this:
"Bastard games are fine but I hate them personally."
Personally, I never really could get into Wizard's Dual. It doesn't make it a bad game type, but you'll never see me play one.
Sidenote: I wonder if we REALLY had that bad of a day game, or did we just need to clean up the inactives first. I'm noticing a direct correlation between the # of lurkers in a game and the strength of the day game. The town can't scumhunt well when folks who really aren't playing the game are drawing the town's attention, and once you start letting them lurk, the mafia quasilurks along with them and/or uses the confusion to sneak into the town and wipe them out.
Second Sidenote: I need to go ahead and run another near-mountainous.
third sidenote: what's currently in fashion gamewise these days anyway. It feels odd to literally not hosting or playing a game. O.o
Post by: Pandarsenic on February 04, 2010, 04:18:36 pm
In fashion presently? BYOR and variants of (We're sick of those though) and Bastard Mods (We're sick of those too). Running and ICing beginner mafias is fun tiemz...
Hmm...
Paranormal is back, obviously.
Yeah, no real fads still going strong at the moment.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 04, 2010, 04:33:09 pm
Post by: Vector on February 04, 2010, 04:36:38 pm
Sidenote: I wonder if we REALLY had that bad of a day game, or did we just need to clean up the inactives first. I'm noticing a direct correlation between the # of lurkers in a game and the strength of the day game. The town can't scumhunt well when folks who really aren't playing the game are drawing the town's attention, and once you start letting them lurk, the mafia quasilurks along with them and/or uses the confusion to sneak into the town and wipe them out.
third sidenote: what's currently in fashion gamewise these days anyway. It feels odd to literally not hosting or playing a game. O.o
Yes, we really did have that bad of a daygame. No one--literally no one--pushes stuff on gut feeling anymore. We don't have townies pulling stupid gambits that completely kill the game. We've started paying more attention to small details. We've all gotten a lot better at adding pressure and generalized psychological warfare.
The scum have gotten a lot better in their daygame, too. It's at a completely different level.
In fashion... hm. I think that BYOR and variants are still extremely popular, but we've discovered that we need them in small doses or we get bored. I personally still love bastard mods, even if they're still rather unstable.
Ultimately, though, I think that we're currently in the "age of interactivity." Every player wants to feel that he personally has an equal stake in the game, and something really fun to do. It's not "if I die, oh well. My townie brothers shall avenge me." It's "if I die, we might be in real trouble, and things won't be fun at all!"
The level-upping of our daygame has actually helped this a lot, since I think that even VTs are beginning to understand the amount of power they have. We want well-balanced games where everyone will enjoy themselves, winning or losing.
Toony Mafia's back too, always good for a quirky closed setup.
^ Yeah, this. "Quirky closed setups" is what we're looking for. Not "Bastard mod closed setup," "quirky." Like Horrible Role.
Post by: dakarian on February 04, 2010, 05:19:21 pm
Well in any case, I already know what the next few games will be. I'll make good note of it when it's my turn for BYOR.
Post by: Neruz on February 04, 2010, 06:54:00 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on February 04, 2010, 07:09:02 pm
No one--literally no one--pushes stuff on gut feeling anymore.
I do. Because it works. Janus in Nearly-Mountainous, anyone?
Post by: Neruz on February 04, 2010, 07:10:24 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on February 04, 2010, 08:11:45 pm
Say, we should run a Dephy (or is it Dethy?). It could get pretty chaotic and thus fun! If you need more variant cops, lemme just throw a bunch out: one that reports a faction the player is not (Player X is NOT neutral); ones that report all townies as mafia, all mafiosos as neutral, and all neutrals as town; one that inspects two people and reports their alignments, but not who has which one; and of course combined roles such as a cop roleblocker or cop doctor. Anti-town roles include: a combined cop serial killer, a miller, a godfather, a frame artist, a mafia guy that makes his target naive or paranoid, a guy where his alignment shifts to match the inspections on him (neutral should be sk, mafia should be mafia-ally, town should be a townie, all with no actions except the sk who can kill), and just for kicks, an sk that can hide an unlimited number of times and randomly turn someone into an Ascetic in addition to killing or hiding.
Post by: dakarian on February 04, 2010, 08:17:21 pm
*takes more notes for the eventual BYOR
Post by: Pandarsenic on February 04, 2010, 08:22:22 pm
Post by: Neruz on February 04, 2010, 08:23:35 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on February 04, 2010, 08:25:34 pm
Dethy is just an exercise in spreadsheet-making. :I
I was trying to eliminate the ability to say "Player A is scum, guaranteed". Player A or B being scum, sure. Best case would be "Oh, this is a closed setup. There's ALWAYS a way for any player to be scum". THAT'S the kind of bastard modding I can get behind.
Post by: Neruz on February 04, 2010, 08:28:21 pm
It's hilarious fun if you don't know what all the roles are, but when you know what all the roles are, it's reduced to a slog.
It's also not actually bastard modding, since the mod isn't being a bastard.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 04, 2010, 08:30:25 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on February 04, 2010, 08:54:52 pm
That's not really bastard modding though, like Pandar said, it's just spreadsheet making. Dethy relies on the ability to just cross-reference results.
It's hilarious fun if you don't know what all the roles are, but when you know what all the roles are, it's reduced to a slog.
It's also not actually bastard modding, since the mod isn't being a bastard.
If you only guarantee one player is a sane cop and make no guarantees about the scum, you can be a total asshole to the players and make roles just to piss them off.
Post by: Neruz on February 04, 2010, 09:11:11 pm
Quote
* They create/modify Roles which seem to imbalance the game;
* They create/modify Roles which actually imbalance the game;
* They create/modify Rules or Game Mechanics in such a way as to change the nature of the game;
* They otherwise don't do what the players expect them to do.
* They usually lie to the players
Giving out bastard roles is sort of bastard modding, but it's a pretty weaksauce version unless the roles are truely horrible like "You lose."
Post by: Zai on February 04, 2010, 10:39:44 pm
In Dethy, it's almost always possible to deduce the scum logically (unless a certain player is playing).I wonder who this certain player is.
Post by: dakarian on February 10, 2010, 10:25:06 pm
basic idea.
The town is a normal town with regular roles, such as cop, doc, and roleblock... but the mafia is not.
The mafia is technically standard: they get a mafia kill, perhaps another role or two like roleblocker. They get a mafia chat. The method of performing the kill is altered: In mafia chat, the mafia group votes on who will perform the kill. Then the mafia member send the kill request via PM to the host. Mafiachat-send requests will NOT be accepted. Tied votes will result in NO kill.
However, their size isn't normal. In a 11 player game, there will be 5 mafiosos. Yes, there's only 6 town.
The catch to this 'early lylo'? Each mafia member's goal ISN'T to match the town..instead they compete with each other for the title of Godfather. How do they do it?
1 - If only 1 mafioso is alive, and the town is defeated.
2 - If the town is completely eliminated, whoever was involved in the most kills (1 kill = voting on the person that ended up lynched or performing the nightkill. Note kills done on town or scum can count and yes, the nightkill can be directed at mafia)
3 - If there is a tie in kills, the winner is chosen at random (literally: Random.org WILL be used).
Note that should the mafia be eliminated, the entire town wins.
Sidenotes:
The town will be given a healthy dose of power roles, though all will be 'common' such as doctor, watcher, and vigilante. Also this is a closed setup: I will not state what roles can exist or how many.
There will be no roleflips upon death. This means the town can't simply piece together how many scum are left but the scum won't know what roles were killed.
Post by: Org on February 10, 2010, 10:31:09 pm
Post by: Org on February 11, 2010, 06:56:23 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on February 11, 2010, 07:05:34 pm
Post by: Org on February 11, 2010, 07:06:56 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on February 12, 2010, 03:22:25 pm
Post by: dakarian on February 12, 2010, 04:07:12 pm
Post by: Org on February 12, 2010, 09:57:53 pm
Proposition Mafia(Or something like that. Meh. Needs a better name. Maybe Senate Mafia?)
Everyone is a senator, come to meet at a meeting. But something is wrong; you find a member of your senate killed! So, everyday, you convene. For the first day irl, everyone proposes a "bill", but there are certain limits(ie no bills targeting a specific group). It then has to be seconded, or it fails and does not move on to voting. Those that are seconded move on to voting, which happens the second day irl. Those that reach a majority are passed, and their effect will start the next Day in the game. Those that aren't fail.
Of course it isnt thought out too far. Only an idea.
Post by: Mr.Person on February 12, 2010, 10:26:56 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on February 12, 2010, 10:28:07 pm
Post by: Org on February 12, 2010, 10:29:18 pm
Post by: dakarian on February 13, 2010, 12:47:30 am
1. What laws would the town want to place?
2. What's the motivation behind putting laws that others may not like?
You could make it so that the game is VERY restrictive (no roleflips, for example) and the town votes to remove the restrictions but then you have LASD mafia again and I imagine you are aiming more for the town making their own laws.
Post by: Cheeetar on February 13, 2010, 01:53:20 am
Post by: Mr.Person on February 13, 2010, 01:58:01 am
Post by: Pandarsenic on February 13, 2010, 02:07:53 am
Town: NO (reveals him)
Mafia: NO (forces him and SK into combat immediately)
SK: NO (See Mafia)
Survivor: YES (Duh)
Lyncher: NO (
Jester: NO (Duh)
Mafia-Ally: NO (Not willing to compromise his Mafia buddy)
Cult: NO (Obvious again)
Of course, the hilarious and awesome WIFOM comes in as people want to appear to be the Survivor and so vote yes but they can't see it pass or they're screwed... :3
Post by: dakarian on February 13, 2010, 06:45:40 am
Still wondering what kind of laws would go through other than those two but it's starting to form together.
Post by: Org on February 13, 2010, 10:14:44 am
It would be very easy for town to win. Pass two laws: One enabling lynches, and one that reveals all alignments of players.I would put some restrictions in.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 13, 2010, 12:30:37 pm
Post by: webadict on February 13, 2010, 12:40:14 pm
Enable some anti lurking laws, methinks. How about "If a mafia member lurks for 48 hours or more, he gets an extra kill". Suddenly the town would be very keen to get people talking.What if every Mafia member lurks, just to gain the extra kill?
Post by: Vector on February 13, 2010, 12:40:48 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 13, 2010, 12:41:51 pm
Post by: webadict on February 13, 2010, 04:29:59 pm
Post by: Org on February 13, 2010, 04:41:35 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on February 13, 2010, 04:48:05 pm
Yes, but if there are enough mafia members, then they'll all have an extra kill.
Because there's extra kills, there must be lurking scum. They'll be outing themself since they'll be the only ones that are lurking.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 13, 2010, 04:51:47 pm
Post by: CobaltKobold on February 13, 2010, 05:15:03 pm
12:3->12:2->9:2->no
16:4->16:3->12:3->no
Even if you give every lurkmafioso a bonus kill, it's not good strategy for e'eryone to lurk for it.
Post by: ExKirby on February 13, 2010, 05:20:18 pm
Post by: Vector on February 13, 2010, 05:44:33 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 13, 2010, 06:02:39 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on February 13, 2010, 10:42:24 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 13, 2010, 10:48:59 pm
Post by: dakarian on February 13, 2010, 10:57:44 pm
Broken Brothers.. I forgot that one. That can work.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on February 13, 2010, 11:02:05 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 13, 2010, 11:04:30 pm
Personally, I'd much rather stick lurker-style roles into a typical game. Otherwise, the town becomes WAY too aware of it and, thus, it becomes impossible for the scum to lurk since a scan can show exactly how long it's been since you last posted.Yeah, that was sortof my intention. Roles would be manipulated to encourage activity.
Post by: Mephansteras on February 17, 2010, 01:19:11 pm
This would allow for some interesting roles (like the Kid role I came up with for Paranormal that needs an extra vote to lynch) that don't work in normal mafia games because only having one or two people with known roles makes them an automatic target. If everyone has a known role, that mitigates that a good bit.
Still needs a lot of work on the specifics, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
Post by: Mr.Person on February 17, 2010, 02:29:38 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on February 17, 2010, 02:34:18 pm
Post by: Org on February 17, 2010, 07:23:01 pm
So, at any part of a CONVENING, a Senator may propose a rule. This rule must be SECONDED within three hours, or it fails, and cannot be brought back that CONVENING. Then, to pass, it must have a MAJORITY, or it will fail, and cannot be brought back that CONVENING. A rule cannot target a specific person, or group. A rule cannot be used to show alignments, or roles. A rule cannot change alignments. A rule cannot change win conditions. Then, there is a LYNCH PROPOSAL, which works like a rule, but can target a specific person. Once it gets a MAJORITY, that person is lynched, and the CONVENING ends and BREAK begins.
Roles
Senator
Active Powers
-
Passive Powers
-
Win Condition
Senate/Corrupt Win
Chairman
Active Powers
-Veto
A Chairman may veto one rule that would have reached a majority. It is then stopped, unless it gains a 2/3 vote following up.
Passive Powers
-
Win Condition
Senate/Corrupt Win
Conflicted Senator
Active Powers
-
Passive Powers
-Conflicted:Has a 50% chance of voting oppositely for a rule.
Win Condition
Senate Win
Journalist
Active Powers
-Inquisitive
The Journalist may, once per Break, check a Senator's alignment.
Passive Powers
-Not Part of This
The Journalist is not a part of what is taking place, so his/her vote will not count, and he/she is not effected by any rules.
Win Condition
Senate/Corrupt Win
Post by: CobaltKobold on February 18, 2010, 08:15:12 pm
"Corrupt Senators may use their ill-gotten monies to purchase ADVERTISING to force a Senator or Journalist to RESIGN, collectively, once per break"
right?
Also, can Journalists propose rules?
Could be expanded with Lobbyists (vigilantes) and Campaign Managers (doctors, they REELECT their target). Or, could let the Journalist protect someone instead by showing the ADVERTISING to be misleading.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 18, 2010, 08:17:08 pm
Post by: CobaltKobold on February 18, 2010, 08:25:07 pm
...I suppose it could be IMPEACHMENT if you wanted to fully theme it.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 18, 2010, 08:49:54 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on February 21, 2010, 07:41:22 am
Post by: SirBayer on February 24, 2010, 01:52:39 pm
There was some discussion about a Half-Life Mafia, and I put some thought into it and it might be interesting. There are a few ways you could play it, but I was particularly thinking Half-Life 2. So here's some role concepts I've come up with.
Metro-Cop: A few configurations I can think of. The first one gives the Metro-Cop the ability to either inspect or kill. Either one would be revealed to all the players. This configuration seems over-powered without some other role that reveals all its actions or something. The other configuration would be a Day-Cop who would likewise raid a house, and have the choice to inspect the player or kill the player. A death wouldn't be revealed until the next day - only the raid.
Gordon Freeman (SK?): Gordon Freeman would have a lot of abilities. I think he would be ascetic, have a kill, and perhaps a one-shot eradicate. Also a one-to-two-shot revive. That's all I've got for now.
Have to work the other Combine forces in too. All the Synths too. Have a Strider with a one-shot eradicate haha
Anyway, then there are the HORRORS OF XEN
Headcrab: Perhaps when you attempted to make your kill, if your target had a kill ability that he didn't use that night, he'd kill you instead, since you're just a freaking headcrab. Or rather, perhaps it would only work on straight-up Townies. If your kill was successful, you'd transform into a Headcrab Zombie, who would have a normal kill ability. Sounds kind of like a disadvantageous role, in retrospect, but hey. Sometimes you get those ones.
Then you might have Headcrab Varients. The Poison Headcrab might poison anyone who it couldn't kill and capture, killing them the next night - unless they were healed. And of course, then they'd make Poison Headcrab Zombies, who could throw Poison Headcrab Zombies that would either convert townies or poison other people. And Fast Headcrabs, that would produce Fast Headcrab Zombies, that would be ascetic or kill immune.
Barnacles might attempt to kill anyone who actioned them, sort of like a paranoid gunfighter.
I have no idea what Antlions would do. Other than probably kill people, like half of the people in the bloody series.
The only reason I can think of for a protect would be from Medics. THe only ability I can think of to give the Rebels is "kill." Which everyone has already. Which would make it retarded.
So yeah, I coudl use a hand with this.
Post by: Org on February 25, 2010, 08:08:53 pm
Basically, kind of like KotM, with the players coming back and the game only ending when scum wins, but you randomly get the "memories" of a dead player, knowing what they have done. It would be interesting.
Post by: quinnr on June 29, 2010, 10:34:22 pm
Interesting idea, but there's an issue of motivation:I actually came here to suggest a game like this...guess I wasn't the first to think of it though :p
1. What laws would the town want to place?
2. What's the motivation behind putting laws that others may not like?
You could make it so that the game is VERY restrictive (no roleflips, for example) and the town votes to remove the restrictions but then you have LASD mafia again and I imagine you are aiming more for the town making their own laws.
Post by: Mr.Person on June 30, 2010, 01:00:00 am
Post by: Org on June 30, 2010, 11:54:00 am
Post by: Vector on July 30, 2010, 06:21:08 pm
Post by: Lonewolf I on July 31, 2010, 03:56:09 am
- Yoda
Star Wars Mafia. Has it been done/discussed?
Spoiler: ed for length. (click to show/hide)
Post by: Org on July 31, 2010, 06:55:14 am
Post by: webadict on July 31, 2010, 11:40:31 am
Post by: Lonewolf I on July 31, 2010, 12:02:10 pm
Anyway, here's an example setup I pulled from random.org:
webadict - Vanilla
Org - Senator (Undiscovered)
Pandarsenic - Padawan (Vector)
ToonyMan - Vanilla
JanusTwoface - Jedi Knight
Jokerman-EXE - Sith Apprentice
Vector - Jedi Master
Ottofar - Jedi Knight
Diablous - Sith Lord
Since Pandarsenic is Vector's Padawan, they would have a seperate quicktopic in which Pandarsenic's name would be revealed, but it would be up to Vector whether or not to reveal her own name. Also, with the current mechanics, in a Master/Padawan relationship the Padawan is a confirmed Townie for the Master, but there's no guarantee for the Padawan that his master is not Sith.
Is there anyone who read enough to have questions? I think the Senator role is broken, but I'm not sure.
Post by: Mr.Person on July 31, 2010, 01:59:10 pm
Post by: Lonewolf I on July 31, 2010, 03:35:04 pm
The Senator should probably just be a Sith-ally.
I originally envisioned all civilians as survivors, but didn't think that would lend itself to their being active.
Post by: Org on July 31, 2010, 06:35:18 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on July 31, 2010, 09:06:07 pm
The Senator should probably just be a Sith-ally.
I originally envisioned all civilians as survivors, but didn't think that would lend itself to their being active.
Survivors ARE mafia-ally.
Post by: Lonewolf I on July 31, 2010, 11:21:35 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on August 01, 2010, 03:11:42 am
Oh. I thought they just had to be alive when the game ended.
The easiest and safest way to do that is to work with the mafia. Everytime there's a survivor that has a brain in a setup, you could of replaced that player with a mafia-ally and they would play exactly the same.
Post by: webadict on August 01, 2010, 03:52:03 am
Post by: Cheeetar on August 01, 2010, 04:35:53 am
Systematically Choose Who Wins
There are X people. Only half of them can win. Whoever gets lynched wins. People who are lynched can still vote.
Post by: Org on August 01, 2010, 08:47:58 am
Post by: ToonyMan on August 01, 2010, 09:00:55 am
Pandar ran one of those. It is interesting.Who won again? Pandar?
Post by: Cheeetar on August 01, 2010, 09:28:25 am
Pandar ran one of those. It is interesting.
I'm variously sure Pandar ran Systematically Choose Who Loses, which is different to what I'm proposing.
Post by: Org on August 01, 2010, 09:58:03 am
Post by: Cheeetar on August 01, 2010, 11:01:55 am
I am proposing a game in which people vote out people and the first half voted out win, in which those voted out could still vote.
Post by: Mr.Person on August 01, 2010, 05:43:02 pm
Not true: Inaluct in Paranormal 3.
The easiest and safest way to do that is to work with the mafia. Everytime there's a survivor that has a brain in a setup, you could of replaced that player with a mafia-ally and they would play exactly the same.
Post by: Pandarsenic on August 01, 2010, 06:31:57 pm
Pandarsenic (if my memory is correct) ran a game in which people voted out people and the last person standing won, in which those voted out could still vote.Correct and I'd be interested in that.
I am proposing a game in which people vote out people and the first half voted out win, in which those voted out could still vote.
Post by: CobaltKobold on August 21, 2010, 06:37:57 pm
Diplomatic Theatre Mafia.
"Basic" version
There are Diplomats, Admirals. A country is composed of one each, and possibly multiple Nationals [vanillas]
There is a Rogue Nation, composed of a Spy [diplomat], a Pirate [Admiral], and possibly Rebels[nationals]
Basic: Diplomats may vote to sanction a country [or a person, as countries are hidden initially], blocking their votes. (The Rogue Nation is unknown and cannot be targeted in this manner.)
Admirals may vote to attack a country, killing one of its people at random, or protect a country or person, keeping it safe from attack. Both these votes are in secret, on Quicktopics, posting under country names so as to not give away who's who.
All may vote to lynch.
Nationals will know either the identity of their country's Diplomat or its Admiral, at random.
The Rogue Nation of course desires to thwart this peace and kill enough to take the vote power.
Spies may spy upon a person at night, seeing what they are, along with the Diplomat vote.
Pirates may attack a nation at night, in place of the nightkill, killing someone at random from there.
Rebels are vanilla mafia.
Advanced options
1 Leaders are added, and are known to their citizenry as well. They behave as Beloved Princesses for their country alone
1b. but may select new Diplomats and Admirals to replace old ones from their citizenry.
1c. Assassin is added, goal to kill all the Leaders.
2a All countries get private chats rather than just the Rogue
2b. but must be coded.
3. Alternative goal for each country is for it to be the last country standing, in addition to the normal "end the rogue threat"
4. A Refugee Nation is added, its goal is to kill off any country and supplant it. It has no special roles, only Refugees, until it finds a space.
5. Rogue Nation has non-mafia goals;
5b. Spies m find (1-N) Diplomats at night, then win
5c. Pirates must Pillage N countries at night, die if the country is protected.
5d. If in addition to the mafia goal, pirates may instead choose to Retire to a Country they have not pillaged, becoming one of its Nationals and winning if they survive.
Super-advanced options
Nation-roles influence the votes, add powers, like-
BM- You get no Admiral, but any attack on your country is announced. You may buy Mercenaries at some point due to your wealth.
PA- You control some other Countries. Their votes are yours to spend as long as this condition lasts.
NEU- Double powervotes across the board, but no Leader. Diplomats and Admirals are replaced by election.
CWI- You have no power-votes, but your countrymen must be killed twice, in each instance. (Two naval attacks always kills one countryman, however-the randomisation does not make you quite so invincible) You may get double powervotes instead by spending a day and a night on a Five-Year Plan. However, this use of your labor removes your kill protection.
(Option: Each of the last two country gets a spy and their goal is to find the other)
NIC- Triple or more war-votes, or possibly an independent military action to Conquer or Kill.
3R Triple diplomatic votes and a conquer action, but you must sacrifice a National each night.
Post by: Vector on August 21, 2010, 09:17:59 pm
But in more seriousness, this is awesome.
Post by: CobaltKobold on August 21, 2010, 10:01:37 pm
A 'simple', 3-nation 9-person game would be in some odd situation on day 1-losing either country's power role would null the town's power in that field. Losing both gives that power to the mafia, which could result in them controlling two kills and a triple voteblock...but by then four townies are dead, so they'd win anyway. Hmm. I suspect 3-nation would have most complex politicking.
Oh, duh, can't do 3/9 mafia. That's one problem.
Also unsure what conditions to set to set the sun on PA's imperial connections.
Someone dying basically confirms that country, but...this doesn't seem to be a big obstacle, as countries are hidden, so you can't go "THAT'S THE ROGUE NATION! THAT ONE!"
Post by: CobaltKobold on August 22, 2010, 12:00:27 am
Post by: Org on August 22, 2010, 01:51:37 pm
Maybe. Hmm.
Post by: Org on August 25, 2010, 05:01:15 pm
Maybe a Homestuck Mafia?Since I am almost done with the roles, does anyone want to help me fix some probably broken roles?
Maybe. Hmm.
Post by: Vector on August 25, 2010, 05:13:46 pm
Maybe a Homestuck Mafia?Since I am almost done with the roles, does anyone want to help me fix some probably broken roles?
Maybe. Hmm.
Good lord, as long as you don't give anyone the survivor god-thing Neruz tossed me, you can't call it broken in comparison >_>;;
Post by: ToonyMan on August 25, 2010, 05:23:09 pm
Post by: Org on August 25, 2010, 05:34:57 pm
Derp. Yeah. I may need help with balancing as well. I will try to finish and send it to you in a few hours.Maybe a Homestuck Mafia?Since I am almost done with the roles, does anyone want to help me fix some probably broken roles?
Maybe. Hmm.
Good lord, as long as you don't give anyone the survivor god-thing Neruz tossed me, you can't call it broken in comparison >_>;;
Post by: Vector on August 25, 2010, 05:36:20 pm
Post by: Org on August 25, 2010, 06:22:45 pm
Post by: Org on August 25, 2010, 08:25:05 pm
Post by: webadict on August 25, 2010, 08:27:13 pm
Post by: webadict on August 29, 2010, 06:34:48 pm
One Town
One Lyncher to Town
One Mafia
One Mafia-Ally
One Jester
One SK
One Survivor
One Cult
Everyone gets a 1-use inspect.
Think that would be fair?
Post by: Pandarsenic on August 29, 2010, 06:39:56 pm
Post by: webadict on August 29, 2010, 07:50:14 pm
What would be game-end conditions?On any fulfilled end conditions:
All must have one person from the team alive to be considered except SK/Mafia-Ally.
Town: SK + Mafia + Cult dead. Lyncher/Jester auto-lose.
Lyncher: Town is lynched. If Town is killed at Night, becomes Town.
Mafia: SK dead and there is one person or less left alive. However, Mafia + Mafia-Ally + Survivor is auto-win.
Mafia-Ally: Mafia wins, or no others left alive.
Jester: Must be lynched.
Survivor: Must be alive on another wincon or no others left alive.
SK: Mafia dead and there is one person or less left alive or no one left alive.
Cult: SK + Mafia dead and equal or outnumber remaining players.
Might need to cut some inspects from some people.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on August 30, 2010, 03:10:54 am
Post by: Mr.Person on August 30, 2010, 06:19:53 am
Post by: webadict on August 30, 2010, 06:47:51 am
Considering a Fuck Your Mind Into 2012 Mafia. Epic Bastard and harder to keep straight than Homestuck on weed. May or may not involve roleplaying. May or may not involve time travel. May or may not involve... Well, I can't give away too much, can I?I'll consider it when Dethy Deluxe ends Night 1.
The mafia-ally, survivor, lyncher, and jester are the only ones who really need inspections. The townie thinks he wants it but in reality doesn't.Lyncher already knows his target, so he wouldn't really NEED it.
The point is that it's fair if everyone has the inspect, because the whole point of the game is that you want YOUR side to win, and no one else's. Which means you have to find a specific person usually (Usually, it's the Survivor, but he'll tend to be super annoying if you're trying to outplay the Jester and Lyncher as... anyone but Cult, but the Mafia and SK want to off each other, since then it's only a battle of lynches, and the Townie and Cult wants to off them too, but the Town doesn't want the Cult either, and then you're hoping the Mafia-Ally thinks he's on your side.) So, in general, everyone's trying to find everyone else. People think they want to go after the Mafia and SK when they seldom should, because it usually turns out to be the Jester. So, it's better to lynch someone you don't think is the Town or the Jester on the first Day, and then hope the Jester and Lyncher/Town gets killed/recruited...
Oh crap. If the Townie gets converted to Cult, should the Lyncher revert to Townie? I'm not sure about this one.
Also, if Cult Leader dies, his cult dies, which makes Cult one of the weakest people to start off as, but the strongest at end game, if he's not unlucky.
Post by: SniHjen on August 30, 2010, 06:56:29 am
Quote
It's now Day1.
RedWarrior0 is The Emperor!
Town only.
Day X Doomspeaker*
announced on day1
Immune to night kill.
*(Mafia wins on day X)
Other than this role, it's vanilla mafia.
What I worry is that It will cause Mafia to lurk...
Post by: webadict on August 30, 2010, 07:45:46 am
Post by: SniHjen on August 30, 2010, 08:11:34 am
Town only.
Day X Doomspeaker*
announced on day1
Immune to nightKill.
X is how many days is enough to make town willing to lynch him to avoid losing, dispite being confired townie from day1
Everyone else have standard roles. (townie, cop, docter, mafioso, godfather, roleblocker, etc.
Post by: Vector on August 30, 2010, 01:02:37 pm
Considering a Fuck Your Mind Into 2012 Mafia. Epic Bastard and harder to keep straight than Homestuck on weed. May or may not involve roleplaying. May or may not involve time travel. May or may not involve... Well, I can't give away too much, can I?
I would love to play this, but ... yeah, we need some guarantee of finished games first.
Also, you totally know my weakness is roleplaying ._.
Post by: JanusTwoface on August 30, 2010, 02:14:47 pm
Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia
Two types of players:
- Apprentices are studying magic. Each day they secretly choose a school to study.
- Mages teach magic in exchange for raw strength. They grow stronger based on the number of Apprentices studying under them.
Rules:
- 1/4 to 1/3 of the players would be Mages (not sure yet), the rest Apprentices.
- The schools of Magic will be colors (Red, Black, White, Blue, and Green).
- The schools of Magic for the remaining Mages are known, but not the exact abilities.
- The schools that exist will be randomly chosen (assuming that there are not enough players for all 5 to be present).
- Mages/Apprentices are randomly selected to be scum, probably 1 Mage will be scum.
I have a list of abilities for each Mage so I could run this right now if people are interested, although I'm still tweaking balance just yet.
Thoughts?
Post by: webadict on August 30, 2010, 02:16:55 pm
Idea similar to a game I saw on mafiascum:I was actually planning something close to this for a game, but I couldn't get it just right, so I scrapped it.
Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia
Two types of players:
- Apprentices are studying magic. Each day they secretly choose a school to study.
- Mages teach magic in exchange for raw strength. They grow stronger based on the number of Apprentices studying under them.
Rules:
- 1/4 to 1/3 of the players would be Mages (not sure yet), the rest Apprentices.
- The schools of Magic will be colors (Red, Black, White, Blue, and Green).
- The schools of Magic for the remaining Mages are known, but not the exact abilities.
- The schools that exist will be randomly chosen (assuming that there are not enough players for all 5 to be present).
- Mages/Apprentices are randomly selected to be scum, probably 1 Mage will be scum.
I have a list of abilities for each Mage so I could run this right now if people are interested, although I'm still tweaking balance just yet.
Thoughts?
Sounds good, but what does it mean that they get more powerful?
Post by: Vector on August 30, 2010, 02:18:31 pm
Post by: JanusTwoface on August 30, 2010, 02:23:07 pm
Sounds good, but what does it mean that they get more powerful?
Each Mage has three abilities of increasing strength. If their school attracts 1 Apprentice, they can use the first ability; if they get 2 they can use the first or second; if three they can choose any of them. They can only use one ability per night though.
One more point, the Apprentices do not know which player is the Mage of a particular school (unless they reveal themselves) nor do the Mages know which Apprentices are supporting them (that will be via PM to me).
The final tally for how much support each school is granted will be posted along with the lynch count at the end of the day.
Sounds cool, but we're about to open three games. Can you wait a few days?
Sure. Whenever it would be useful.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on August 30, 2010, 06:00:56 pm
Post by: Vector on August 30, 2010, 06:02:20 pm
As for mine, I decided I don't have the free time to run a game, especially one with as much mod involvement as the one I'm planning. However, if someone wants to see the notes once I've got them sorted out, feel free to ask. I would just love to use CoKo's Ill Met By Moonlight mechanic, too, now that I remember it.
Maybe over winter break, if you're not a member of the workforce yet?
Post by: RedWarrior0 on August 30, 2010, 08:22:21 pm
Post by: Vector on August 30, 2010, 08:26:24 pm
As in, Dethy Day 2 starts then? Plus I'm sort of ADD so I have this tendancy to forget about stuff I should be paying attention to. And I have Pandarsenic Syndrome.
Nah, I meant "the thing you're planning."
Post by: Org on September 11, 2010, 02:48:47 pm
Spoiler: Roles (click to show/hide)
Post by: Elegy on September 14, 2010, 06:03:15 pm
so I kinda want to GM a mafia game, and I've been thinking about what to run for a while now.
What I was thinking -if I can get the people for it- is a game with 14 people
2 mafia of faction A
2 mafia of faction B
1 cop
1 doctor
8 vanilla townies
and for fun:
1 set of siblings (between 1 mafia and either the cop or doctor)
What say you, mafia elders?
Post by: webadict on September 14, 2010, 06:05:30 pm
um um um hey guys1.) No siblings. That's an instant knowledge of who's scum.
so I kinda want to GM a mafia game, and I've been thinking about what to run for a while now.
What I was thinking -if I can get the people for it- is a game with 14 people
2 mafia of faction A
2 mafia of faction B
1 cop
1 doctor
8 vanilla townies
and for fun:
1 set of siblings (between 1 mafia and either the cop or doctor)
What say you, mafia elders?
2.) Godfather and roleblocker on each team. Make the roleblockers immune to roleblocking, and able to block Godfathers killing and you've got a game.
Post by: Elegy on September 14, 2010, 06:09:04 pm
So if a roleblocker blocks the enemy godfather, that faction loses its nightkill?
I thought siblings (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Siblings) sounded kind of fun. The townie would have to wait until the last day to reveal, or else they would die before they could "win", and on the flip side, the mafia would have to protect that townie without being too suspicious.
Post by: Org on September 14, 2010, 06:09:49 pm
Post by: Elegy on September 14, 2010, 06:14:26 pm
Post by: webadict on September 14, 2010, 06:19:49 pm
two things:Yes, if a Godfather is killing and gets blocked by the opposing Mafia Rolebocker, that results in there being no nightkill for that Mafia.
So if a roleblocker blocks the enemy godfather, that faction loses its nightkill?
I thought siblings (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Siblings) sounded kind of fun. The townie would have to wait until the last day to reveal, or else they would die before they could "win", and on the flip side, the mafia would have to protect that townie without being too suspicious.
The Siblings would cause the Cop/Doctor to yell "I'm Sibs with a Mafia" then subsequently get lynched, killing that Mafia. It's totally worth it.
Post by: Elegy on September 14, 2010, 06:21:55 pm
can/should godfathers be immune to nightkills?
Post by: RedWarrior0 on September 14, 2010, 06:27:29 pm
Better yet, a 14-person person siblingry.
A 15-person siblingry would just be mindfuck.
Post by: webadict on September 14, 2010, 06:28:28 pm
and last thing:Well... that's a tricky one. I'm not sure if they should or shouldn't. It'd certainly be nice, but may be too anti-Town.
can/should godfathers be immune to nightkills?
How about a 5-part siblingry, of both town powerroles, a vanilla townie, and the mafia Godfathers?... Again, trading 3 for 2 is good.
Post by: Mephansteras on September 14, 2010, 06:28:48 pm
and last thing:
can/should godfathers be immune to nightkills?
Depends on how you want to balance things. With two scum teams, though, it's not a bad idea. Cross-scum kills are ridiculously common.
Post by: webadict on September 14, 2010, 06:29:44 pm
I kill the other scum on purpose though.and last thing:
can/should godfathers be immune to nightkills?
Depends on how you want to balance things. With two scum teams, though, it's not a bad idea. Cross-scum kills are ridiculously common.
Post by: Mr.Person on September 14, 2010, 09:13:24 pm
DUN DUN!
Double-fun if you don't tell a player that they've been roleblocked.
Post by: Elegy on September 14, 2010, 09:14:32 pm
Post by: Toaster on September 14, 2010, 10:12:07 pm
Post by: Zathras on October 21, 2010, 05:40:29 pm
Tylui, I suggest you post your RockPaperScissors game setup here and ask the more knowledgeable folk around for input.
Post by: breadbocks on October 22, 2010, 12:25:08 am
Post by: Vector on October 22, 2010, 12:29:46 am
Post by: JanusTwoface on October 22, 2010, 12:30:49 am
To just drop off an idea I had, what if you had a game where the Mafia is at a clear advantage, but the town gets clues as to who the scum is after every murder?
... :) I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Mafia is. The Mafia is at a clear advantage, they know who they are and who the town is. And (at least theoretically) each murder does reveal something about the Mafia. At the very least, it reveals one more player that *isn't* Mafia...
Now if you had more specific details, have it it. I'm just not sure where you're going with it.
Post by: breadbocks on October 22, 2010, 12:40:27 am
Post by: Mr.Person on October 22, 2010, 01:41:48 am
Post by: RedWarrior0 on October 22, 2010, 03:06:37 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on October 22, 2010, 04:37:30 pm
And the easiest way to do it is to just make everyone random-target cops and other information-gathering roles.
Post by: webadict on October 22, 2010, 06:11:07 pm
Post by: Elegy on October 22, 2010, 06:46:15 pm
-snip-k
Post by: webadict on October 25, 2010, 10:17:33 am
No PRs. Just one Assassin and one Kingmaker.
Post by: webadict on October 25, 2010, 04:54:32 pm
Basically, so long as there is no doctor, cop (Well, sort of - you could PM the player from a cop account), roleblocker, or some other hidden modifier in games, games could essentially be "player-modded." There would be one player to set up roles (Which is easy, since it's an open set-up), but otherwise it'd be simple.
How's it sound?
Post by: Mr.Person on October 25, 2010, 04:58:51 pm
Post by: Zathras on October 25, 2010, 05:05:51 pm
I just realized that for fast-paced vanilla games, you could make a "mod" account. For games like Vengeful, there is no need for a mod account, since there is no night kills. Vanilla games would have one for the mafia to post who's killed, and a kingmaker game could have one for the scum and one for the kingmaker.
Basically, so long as there is no doctor, cop (Well, sort of - you could PM the player from a cop account), roleblocker, or some other hidden modifier in games, games could essentially be "player-modded." There would be one player to set up roles (Which is easy, since it's an open set-up), but otherwise it'd be simple.
How's it sound?
Seems unwieldy, as we're talking multiple accounts (given multiple roles/factions) per game, and there could be concurrent games. Plus I believe Toady frowns at multiaccounts and that kind of thing (The Overseer gets away with it, I think, because it's just one and seldom used). It could work, but I can't quite picture how.
Plus, the mod's job is not just handing out roles and kills, it's the flavour, man! We needs moar flavour!
Post by: webadict on October 25, 2010, 05:22:20 pm
There would have to be some sort of random method to distributing roles. Not that I don't trust you guys, but I don't even want there to be a chance of cheating.The roles would be randomly assigned, of course.
Seems unwieldy, as we're talking multiple accounts (given multiple roles/factions) per game, and there could be concurrent games. Plus I believe Toady frowns at multiaccounts and that kind of thing (The Overseer gets away with it, I think, because it's just one and seldom used). It could work, but I can't quite picture how.The accounts would be re-used or used for multiple games, certainly. I'm simply saying that for small vanilla games, this could be an easy way to play without having to wait for a mod.
Plus, the mod's job is not just handing out roles and kills, it's the flavour, man! We needs moar flavour!
And yes, the flavor would be gone. Sad, but true.
Post by: The Overseer on October 25, 2010, 05:30:22 pm
Post by: Zathras on October 25, 2010, 05:42:54 pm
8-P
Post by: webadict on October 25, 2010, 06:56:27 pm
pretty dumbI see what you did there.
Post by: GlyphGryph on October 26, 2010, 05:25:57 pm
Post by: Org on November 10, 2010, 08:32:32 pm
Should be fun.
Post by: Toaster on November 10, 2010, 09:52:43 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_%28role-playing_game%29
If so, color me interested.
Post by: Pandarsenic on November 11, 2010, 09:02:43 am
Post by: Org on November 11, 2010, 04:42:50 pm
It may get a little...
Crazy?
So many things I can add. 0_0
Post by: Leafsnail on November 13, 2010, 04:49:20 pm
So how about a game with a word/ post limit per person per day on it? Could be interesting to see if we can be more to the point.
Post by: Vector on November 13, 2010, 04:52:45 pm
Post by: KaminaSquirtle on November 13, 2010, 04:53:41 pm
KaminaSquirtle disapproval enormous.
Post by: JanusTwoface on November 13, 2010, 05:02:47 pm
Hmm... recently, I've began to feel that we're just too wordy in our games. I mean, our posts and threads bloat to ridiculous proportions.Maximum, minimum, or both? Because if it's just a maximum limit it'll just help lurkers lurk. And what would you do if someone ignores the limit?
So how about a game with a word/ post limit per person per day on it? Could be interesting to see if we can be more to the point.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 13, 2010, 05:54:24 pm
Post by: Vector on November 13, 2010, 05:56:17 pm
Post by: Toaster on November 13, 2010, 09:20:56 pm
My next game will probably still be somewhat role light, though I do have several ideas in my head.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 13, 2010, 10:09:15 pm
IthinkIknowwhatmysolutionwouldbe. Hahahahhaa.I think I know what my solution to your solution would be.
Quote from: Ruleset
No being a smartass about any other rules on this list.
Post by: Vector on November 13, 2010, 10:11:41 pm
Quote from: RulesetNo being a smartass about any other rules on this list.
... Yeah, whatever. My point is that frankly, it looks like you're going to be making people save part of their wordcount and avoid posting in case something interesting goes down.
Dunno. I was talking to someone once who suggested that the scum have a wincon of getting the thread to a certain length, with only a certain number of consecutive posts/no junk posts allowed. That might be neat.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 13, 2010, 11:11:58 pm
It'd probably be "limited number of words per post" (to reduce the need to wordclip) and "limited number of posts per day" or something like that. I have actually seen a game with that before... I remember it because there was a role in it that would delete ALL of a players posts as a one shot night action. Nasty.
Post by: Mish on November 14, 2010, 12:33:03 am
Post by: RedWarrior0 on November 14, 2010, 12:05:34 pm
Maybe have the winner be fewest words/posts or whatever in the case of a town win. However, you need to post content every RL day. Posting a bazillion things would either mark you as scum/third party who doesn't care about "In case of a town win" or as a townie who wants a town win but not him/herself to win. Only one post per day, however, would be nonproductive, and other people would want to lynch you to save their own asses from the "Only one townie can win" condition. Alternatively, the fewest posts per day with content would get the only town night abilities, perhaps a One shot inspect with (sometimes) Night kill immunity, etc.
Peer regulation is better than mod regulation, imo, because it is so much more dynamic.
Post by: Zai on November 14, 2010, 12:38:04 pm
I've been tossing around ideas in my head for a post-powered mafia. It'd be different than a post restriction mafia in that people's posts influence their role power. For an example, loot at my BYOT role- every two times I posted a pun, I got an extra vote, and was NK immune if anyone punned in response. It could have roles where you could only target your night action at someone who quoted you, and other examples like that. Would there be any interest?I would indeed be interested. Would this have the same role-change conditions for everyone, or would each person have different conditions?
If it's the same for everyone, the conditions for changing your role would have to be hidden so as to avoid people taking advantage of the role-changes, and if there were multiple games like that, they'd have to have different role-change conditions to avoid people taking advantage of known role-change conditions. And each condition would need to have different results.
I think that you'd need to make it clear that there are no quoting-caused role-changes. Otherwise, nobody will quote anyone and it will be very difficult to know what people are referencing or talking about. That kind of thing makes me not want to play a game.
This reminds me of a game Dak ran about a year ago now (I remember playing it while I was with family for Thanksgiving) where stuff you said in italics lightly affected your role. It also reminds me of some of the roles in BYORC, another Dak-run game.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 14, 2010, 12:48:40 pm
Basically, if a mafia member goes 24 hours without posting, they get a point (goes into a collective pool with all other mafia members).
If the mafia spends 3 points, they can get an extra nightkill.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on November 14, 2010, 03:00:08 pm
The other options is the old "Lynch All Lurkers" mafia.But the objective was originally to devise a way to encourage lower posting, ergo more efficient hunting, without causing lurkers like myself to lurk.
Basically, if a mafia member goes 24 hours without posting, they get a point (goes into a collective pool with all other mafia members).
If the mafia spends 3 points, they can get an extra nightkill.
Post by: Mr.Person on November 14, 2010, 04:24:37 pm
Now, limiting the size of a quote tower or whatever, that makes sense. Some of them have gotten pretty crazy and so big they're useless. Splitting posts is very reasonable if it improves readability. Also, I don't think you should be allowed to quote a post if it already contains a quote quoting a quote quoting a quote (limit quote towers to three posts, in other words). Quote towers are just stupid. Go through and remove the extra quote(s) and everything will be fine. If somebody cares, they can always click the link and read the post for themselves.
Post by: KaminaSquirtle on November 14, 2010, 04:30:13 pm
Woah woah woah, you guys are trying to DECREASE the number of posts? What the fuck? We have a lurker problem, not a "BYOR:Pand style too much activity" problem. If a max word limit goes into place, I'm going to ignore it. I'm not going to go out of my way to break it or anything, I'm just not going to handcuff myself because the mod doesn't feel like reading more than X words a day because he/she is really fucking lazy. And if I get modkilled for playing the game well, then perhaps it's not me with the problem. That's not even getting into the fact that a player might have to rewrite their post just to remove a couple dozen words, wasting far more time than just reading them would of taken in the first place. It's a stupid idea, both in theory and in practice.100% agree.
Now, limiting the size of a quote tower or whatever, that makes sense. Some of them have gotten pretty crazy and so big they're useless. Splitting posts is very reasonable if it improves readability. Also, I don't think you should be allowed to quote a post if it already contains a quote quoting a quote quoting a quote (limit quote towers to three posts, in other words). Quote towers are just stupid. Go through and remove the extra quote(s) and everything will be fine. If somebody cares, they can always click the link and read the post for themselves.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 14, 2010, 04:47:55 pm
It's a stupid idea, both in theory and in practice.I dunno, it seemed to work when they actually ran a game like this (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12460).
I'm not saying it should be for all games, just that it would be interesting to see how the mechanic affects one.
Post by: Mr.Person on November 14, 2010, 05:20:21 pm
It's a tough balancing act.
Post by: Toaster on November 14, 2010, 05:21:41 pm
I would indeed be interested. Would this have the same role-change conditions for everyone, or would each person have different conditions?
...
I think that you'd need to make it clear that there are no quoting-caused role-changes. Otherwise, nobody will quote anyone and it will be very difficult to know what people are referencing or talking about. That kind of thing makes me not want to play a game.
Everyone's role would be different, so you couldn't figure out what other players were up to.
Interesting point re quoting- it's a valid mechanic, but there's pretty much no way to prevent someone gaming the system like that. It'd need a good bit of balancing and pondering over. I don't have anything down on paper for it, so it won't be coming any time soon.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 14, 2010, 06:33:07 pm
Sure, for a single game it could work ok, just be very careful. You don't want to make the limits too tight or people won't post. You don't want them to be too generous or they might as well not exist.Yeah, true.
It's a tough balancing act.
For words I'd probably look at a bunch of games to see how long a post can be before it becomes tediuous to read.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 15, 2010, 07:52:35 pm
So you could have someone with a role that does: Player X has a new minimum word restriction of 200 words for the next day. If they fail to meet this restriction, they are killed.
In-game anti-lurker role!
Post by: Argembarger on November 30, 2010, 11:00:23 am
It would be called "Decisive Mafia".
Not sure about the roles yet.
The only difference between it and regular, vanilla Mafia is that once you have voted, you cannot unvote or change your vote that day. Votes reset every night for the next day, obviously. Days automatically end when everyone has voted, or when time runs out.
Any thoughts? Would anyone be interested in playing a game like this?
Post by: JanusTwoface on November 30, 2010, 11:02:39 am
I have a feeling that it will just turn into no-one voting until the end of the day and barely anyone voting then. :-\
Post by: Argembarger on November 30, 2010, 11:07:59 am
I'm not worried about nobody voting, because then nightkills will happen. And you'll get situations where someone will get lynched from a single vote, probably. The situation should resolve itself, but I can see it being quite a challenging situation for townies. I'll probably include a somewhat high ratio of town to mafia, or perhaps a masonry in there to help them out, since I can see scum exploiting the hell out of it without some balancing.
Post by: Mr.Person on November 30, 2010, 04:44:45 pm
Give the town a little power but don't go overboard. Remember, the town being too weak is a LOT more fun than if the town's too powerful.
Post by: Argembarger on November 30, 2010, 05:04:53 pm
Hmm....
Do you think I'd get any takers if I made this game?
Post by: Vector on November 30, 2010, 06:15:10 pm
Post by: Argembarger on November 30, 2010, 06:20:46 pm
Post by: JanusTwoface on November 30, 2010, 06:43:14 pm
Do you think I'd get any takers if I made this game?Any? Probably. Enough to run it... maybe not. I wouldn't. Nothing personal, I just don't have the time for playing in another game right now.
I would suggest solidifying what rules you're thinking about and them posting them here so we can see what it'd be like. That's what this thread is really for after all. :)
Post by: Vector on November 30, 2010, 06:49:15 pm
Regular mafia getting too predictable/easy for you? :P
Yuuuuuuuuuup.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 30, 2010, 06:50:17 pm
If only dakarian were here...
Post by: Vector on November 30, 2010, 06:55:11 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on November 30, 2010, 06:58:05 pm
Post by: Vector on November 30, 2010, 07:00:23 pm
One of these days I really want to run a Bastard Paranormal. Just haven't decided how I want to mess with people yet.
*Pre-emptive in*
Post by: JanusTwoface on November 30, 2010, 07:06:50 pm
One of these days I really want to run a Bastard Paranormal. Just haven't decided how I want to mess with people yet.Many more Aliens, perhaps outnumbering the town, some sort of X-Files gone mad thing?
Post by: Mephansteras on November 30, 2010, 07:13:27 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on November 30, 2010, 07:24:23 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on November 30, 2010, 08:50:30 pm
Post by: Argembarger on December 01, 2010, 12:52:40 pm
And you have 30+ players.
Game on.
EDIT: For bonus points:
Dead people are required to post in limerick form in the deadchat. If they post a 60 page epic poem about the glory of Mephansteras using liberal alliteration and iambic pentameter, they come back to life as a serial-killing zombie jester. If it isn't completely in iambic pentameter, they come back as a vanilla townie.
Post by: webadict on December 01, 2010, 03:49:58 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on December 01, 2010, 03:59:28 pm
Post by: Argembarger on December 01, 2010, 04:01:16 pm
Just to clarify, do you mean they have to, for example, pick their night 1 kills before the start of day 1, their night 2 kills during night 1 and so on?
Post by: webadict on December 01, 2010, 04:26:00 pm
Post by: Argembarger on December 01, 2010, 05:13:51 pm
Post by: webadict on December 01, 2010, 06:35:24 pm
How do you mean? Picking their kill order for the whole game before day 1? Picking who they want to kill before they even know that they're mafia?They'll know they're mafia, but they'll pick their kill order during the first Day or before the game starts even.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on December 01, 2010, 07:57:33 pm
Then make it a mountainous game with Paranormal flavor.
Post by: Argembarger on December 01, 2010, 08:01:15 pm
Bastard Paranormal: You tell the players about hidden rules existing, role ambiguity, etc. Paranormal: Paranoid.
Then make it a mountainous game with Paranormal flavor.
This is the best thing. The best.
Post by: webadict on December 01, 2010, 08:10:07 pm
Better yet: There are no Doppelgangers.Bastard Paranormal: You tell the players about hidden rules existing, role ambiguity, etc. Paranormal: Paranoid.
Then make it a mountainous game with Paranormal flavor.
This is the best thing. The best.
Post by: Argembarger on December 01, 2010, 08:13:46 pm
Nobody wins. The last two survivors lose even harder when they realize what they have done.
Post by: webadict on December 01, 2010, 08:20:12 pm
:oExtra, extra! Town commits mass murder! Imaginary enemies to blame!
Nobody wins. The last two survivors lose even harder when they realize what they have done.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on December 01, 2010, 08:22:56 pm
Post by: Argembarger on December 01, 2010, 08:28:26 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on December 01, 2010, 10:19:33 pm
But that ruins the point of having a more normal game than normal.
It's so normal it became Paranormal again
Post by: Argembarger on December 01, 2010, 10:57:45 pm
Argembarger's "Decisive" Mafia
Alpha Version 0.01a
\/-\/-\/-\/-\/-\/-\/-\/-\/
Rules:
Standard Mafia rules. No editing, no quoting PMs from mod or players, no talking after you die.
72 hour days. NO EXTENSIONS. Days will auto-end when everyone has voted. Saturday and Sunday together count as 24 hours.
24 hour nights. It is possible the nights will end early. If so, the extra time is added to the beginning of the next day.
Votes in red text. In case of a tie, the mod will decide who gets lynched randomly. If nobody votes, one person will be randomly lynched. The only way to get a no-lynch is to vote for it. Lynches are decided based on whoever gets the most votes, not a majority. No-lynches work the same way.
THERE ARE NO UNVOTES. You cannot change your vote once cast, no matter what it was for or why you cast it. Votes are reset between days.
MAFIA:
At the beginning of the game, there will be a 48 hour period. During this time, the Mafia will convene and decide in what order they will kill the townspeople every night. This kill-list, once submitted, can not be altered or diverted from except in one way. Once and only once, the Mafia can choose to STOP a kill. This sends the person they were going to kill that night to the end of the list, and they kill the next person in line instead. This can only be done once. The Mafia must also choose the line of succession. The first person on this list does all the mafia killing. If they die, the next person on the list handles the killing, and so on.
This "Line of Succession" also applies to the kill list itself. If the chosen Mafia target for that night was already killed for some reason, the mafia simply moves on to the next one in line.
PRE-POST EDIT: The scum DOES have temporary manual control when a kill is prevented. If the Mafioso in question is blocked, they may shift him somewhere else in the line of succession. If the target is protected, they can choose to try again or not. If they try again, the next attempt will happen the following night. If they do not try again, the target in question is moved somewhere else in the hit list order, and the next one in line is their target for the following night.
POWER ROLES:
Power Roles will not be as restricted as the scum is. During the pre-game 48 hour period, everyone with a power role must submit what they will do on Night 1. During Night 1, they submit what they will do on Night 2, and so on. This simply means they must plan ahead one night. Unlike scum, they can never choose to stop an action once decided. Decide to vigkill someone the next night, then find out they were a Paranoid War Veteran during the day? Too bad, man. Too bad.
You can always, however, choose NOT to do an action the next night at all. Unless your role doesn't allow that.
IMPORTANT: If your role requires you to take an action every night, and you do not submit an action, you will randomly target someone.
My Thoughts:
I think it's an interesting set-up. Daytime chat ought to feel fundamentally different than normal Mafia since the scum and people with power roles will already know what's going to happen the next night and will have to talk around that. Claiming will be different, too. Probably a lot easier to prove, since you have to commit to an action before the day even starts. So they know on Day 1 that if you say you are going to do something on night 1, and it happens, that you are probably telling the truth.
Actually, now that I think about it, that could become unbalancing. I may have to deal with this somehow.
Random voting stage will obviously be gone. Now it will be the Flagrant, Uncalled For Finger Of Suspicion Stage, or FUFFOSS.
Analyzing voting patterns... heh heh heh. Have a field day with that.
No more waffling. No more OMGUS votes. You thought they were scummy enough to vote for, but then you found out they weren't? Whoops, oh well.
The weight of a vote is also MASSIVELY increased. The threat of voting, the magnitude of FoS's, all have much more power. When you can't change your vote, you gotta mean what you say and say what you mean.
Lurkers. This will be interesting. "Decisive" Mafia has many elements that are much more automated than normal Mafia. Because of some of the automation, the game system may very well plow through on its own, disregarding lurkers completely. Who knows?
Overeager Serial Killer starts lurking? People are gonna start dying without rhyme or reason, ha.
Thoughts, Suggestions, and Rampant Speculation Welcome!
Post by: RedWarrior0 on December 01, 2010, 11:03:25 pm
Post by: Argembarger on December 01, 2010, 11:07:33 pm
...This is gonna turn into a straight-up bastard ruleset if I'm not careful, if it isn't already...
Post by: RedWarrior0 on December 01, 2010, 11:16:22 pm
Alternatively, have a two-person third party which only gets blocks and redirects, no kills or anything, but gets to decide night-of instead of night-before. Maybe a hidden vote or vote sabotage or something.
Post by: Argembarger on December 01, 2010, 11:21:50 pm
No, but, something similar to that is a pretty good idea for balancing. I like the potential for a mafia same-night roleblocker, even the threat of that should be enough to keep things in line.
On a completely unrelated note, I just thought of a funny role. The Candlejack. A Serial Killer who kills the first person to say their name that da
Post by: Zathras on December 02, 2010, 12:16:21 am
On a completely unrelated note, I just thought of a funny role. The Candlejack. A Serial Killer who kills the first person to say their name that day.
This is so awesome, I'm claiming this the next BYOR! Say my name, you bastards. I DARE you, say my frickin' name!
But going back to the other posts, I have to add: If I'm killed, I WILL COME BACK TO LIFE if I post only in limericks, iambic pentameter, or other poetic form to the deadchat: I'm back as a SERIAL KILLER ZOMBIE POET! OOOHHH YEAH! I WILL BE UNSTOPPABLE!
Someone run this damned thing, plase.
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 02, 2010, 02:17:06 am
Post by: Zathras on December 02, 2010, 02:50:09 am
I plan, after finals, to unlock the old BYOR:T, NOT reveal its secrets so I can reuse them, and run a new one.
At this point, dear, you must be mistaking me for someone who gives a fuck.
It has just been too fucking long. Unlock it or don't, reveal it or not, but just shut up about it. Do run another one if, and only if, you will have time to actually run the frickin' thing. I would love to play it. But quit doting on the old girl. She's dead, and your having intercourse with its corpse is only funny for so long...
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 02, 2010, 03:00:15 am
Post by: Zathras on December 02, 2010, 03:34:34 am
I said unlock, not continue. Pay fuckin' attention.
"Unlock" is what I took from it, and the point stands. Pay fucking attention: it's dead, Jim, and it has been for months. To what purpose would you unearth her maggoty corpse now? We would have loved to know pieces of it then; O were it unlocked when we were young still, way back when... but no, it has been too long, its corpse a victim of neglect and procrastination. Nought but a worm farm now. Quit fucking it. Why would you prop its corpse up? To parrot some opinions? No! Let it be, it's best left as a memory of what could have been, and its best parts reused in your next great game (for which I'll in if you'll be arsed to run it).
Let bygones be bygones, and get on with the new thing, man! This is not the thread for it, but I still ask: when is the next BYOR, in one form or another? I love role-heavy games, man, and after Paranormal, there's none!
Post by: Mr.Person on December 02, 2010, 05:08:58 am
This is all assuming nobody wants to run Christmas Mafia 2, in which case I'd gladly run a different themed BYOR.
Post by: Toaster on December 02, 2010, 09:46:46 am
I plan, after finals, to unlock the old BYOR:T, NOT reveal its secrets so I can reuse them, and run a new one.
I'm just curious- how many semesters do you have left?
Post by: Argembarger on December 02, 2010, 09:56:17 am
Post by: Mephansteras on December 02, 2010, 10:49:16 am
I love role-heavy games, man, and after Paranormal, there's none!
Oh, I'll probably run something after Paranormal 17. Maybe a bastard game, maybe a Supernatural. But there will be something.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 02, 2010, 07:41:04 pm
The basic idea: you're trapped in a house with a bunch of other people, and some of them are out to kill you. It'd function sortof like Mapped Mafia, only much less lame. You'd move your piece around on the board every "phase", although you'd be able to map private actions with the moderator (anyone can do this, and it'd override your public move - although your public move would still be the one displayed on the thread if you made one).
As long as you're alive, you can post on the thread during the day. This is the town's main way to find scum. However, if you want to pretend to be dead, all you need do is hide somewhere and stop posting. Of course, if someone finds you later, you may have a hard time explaining it... although perhaps there'll be other reasons for mysterious silences.
Lynchings would work fairly similarly to the usual. Every "phase" you can vote on someone to lynch. If the person is present, they'll simply be lynched at the end of the phase. If you decide to lynch someone in their abscence, you'll issue a kindof "warrant" for them, and the next time they are outnumbered by people who voted for them, they will be lynched (exact mechanics if people change their minds or if one of the voters is on a scumteam with them to be decided).
Mafia kills would be... different. With no night phase, the mafia can take their chances to strike at isolated players and reduce the towns numbers that way. Or use carefully planned traps or sneak attacks. Or possibly use their special mechanics if the town is staying clumped together and not playing ball.
The bastard element? Well, I feel people could still try to break the game by all hanging together all the time. Therefore, I'd design the setup with roles/ alignments/ mechanics to counter this tactic. These would have to be kept hidden in order to be effective... so it would be a closed setup.
The things I would be able to guarentee about the setup:
There is a scumteam. They are trying to kill the town. The town is trying to kill them.
Scumhunting will almost certainly be vital to the town for winning.
Your role pm is the truth. I will not lie to you in it at all.
I will not directly attempt to trick you. Only your fellow players will do that, although they may have help from the initial setup.
The moderator is not the culprit.
Other than that... well, most exact rules are pretty vague in my mind. Hammers or deadlines? Which map to use (I was thinking of stealing the Kill Doctor Lucky board, though)? Exactly how far would you be able to move each time? What exactly would you be able to do inside a room (at the very least, Hide, Search and Lock/ Unlock would be options)? But then again, I don't want to spend ages writing a ruleset if there's no interest :P.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on December 02, 2010, 07:46:10 pm
Post by: Vector on December 02, 2010, 07:46:26 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on December 02, 2010, 07:49:34 pm
Modified Clue board, with the center being The Family Vault. Xanatos Roulette-type circumstances for mysterious effects!Ah... I'm liking this idea.
Post by: Dariush on December 13, 2010, 01:05:43 pm
Basic idea - everyone gets a NK, but for it actually to succeed the total attack of attacking group has to be higher than the total defense or defending group. Basically, everyone has two stats at the start of the game with modifiers based on some outside parameters (e.g. +2 defense when in own home) along with usual mafia inspections and the like. Also important factor is the location of the player - if, for example, he went out to defend or attack someone and someone else arrived to take him out, they may choose to wait and get the bonus for an ambush attack when he returns. You may also set your policy on everyone arriving - you may choose to shoot particular players on sight or let them inside (and get penalty for backstab if they are actually after your soul). Lynches work as usual, irrelevant of those stats.
That's the idea in a nutshell. If people think it's good, I'll elaborate on it. (actually, I've already thought of backstory, roles, etc., but I don't think posting them would be a good idea if the idea is about to be discarded as stupid)
Post by: JanusTwoface on December 13, 2010, 01:09:08 pm
How would you say that this is still a 'Mafia' game? (Basically, informed minority versus uninformed majority with the focus of the game on reading people and manipulation)
I could see this working on the Mafia board, but you'll probably need a few more details first.
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2010, 01:21:01 pm
Bang is pretty much a mafia variant, so it could work here. But you might want to look that game up to see how it works.
Post by: Dariush on December 13, 2010, 01:34:04 pm
How would you say that this is still a 'Mafia' game? (Basically, informed minority versus uninformed majority with the focus of the game on reading people and manipulation)It's still Mafia - the informed minority can take advantage of... being informed and kill their target together; they can manipulate the townies into working with them to NK the same target; the townies can form alliances with those they trust; it all boils down to the same core with the exception that everyone can take their chances at night as opposed to just mafia and third party and adds some measures to balance this.
I could see this working on the Mafia board, but you'll probably need a few more details first.
Post by: JanusTwoface on December 13, 2010, 01:47:17 pm
How much havoc do you expect during the night? Is it possible for a bunch of people to die each night, or just 1 or 2 (Mafia night kill + maybe 1 town kill).
Also, would a Mafioso be able to kill someone by themselves or would it require more than one of them? If the former, what stops them from killing half the town; if the latter, what about investigative roles?
Post by: Dariush on December 13, 2010, 02:22:29 pm
How much havoc do you expect during the night? Is it possible for a bunch of people to die each night, or just 1 or 2 (Mafia night kill + maybe 1 town kill).I would guess 3-4, but it all depends on amount of agreement between people - if everyone goes after his own target, town may not kill anyone; if they coordinate their forces, they may kill several people per night (there's also the attack:defense ratio, which can be fine-tuned if this idea takes off)
Also, would a Mafioso be able to kill someone by themselves or would it require more than one of them? If the former, what stops them from killing half the town; if the latter, what about investigative roles?Mafiosi have a bit higher attack than average townie, so it would take at least two of them kill one townie (compared to three townies per townie); however, if they try to attack several people per night, the targets may be sufficiently defended for mafiosi to be uncovered or even killed on the spot. Investigative roles remain as usual, except adding a few specific ones (like learning the attack:defense ratio of a chosen character)
Post by: JanusTwoface on December 13, 2010, 02:29:57 pm
Post by: Dariush on December 13, 2010, 02:42:21 pm
Post by: Zathras on December 13, 2010, 02:51:33 pm
Hm, I wasn't aware of that problem, but I did plan on 16 people. But well, there aren't many games going on at the moment, so I think it's worth a shot even if only because of lack of alternatives :)
Hmmm....
Active Games:
* Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II
* Mafia Salad
* Don't Outguess the Mod 3
* BYOR 5.5
* BMXVIII
Games in Signups:
* The McCarthyism Game
* Bring Your Own Winter Holiday Mafia
* [Bastard Paranormal coming soon!]
Just how many people do you think hang around here? It's as active as I've seen it in a long time, frankly, and with festivities coming up, I don't think another 15+ people game is going to fill up until well into the new year...
...and, not to mistrust your new idea, or burst your bubble or anything, but you may want to try your hand at running a less complex game before you decide to open up a 16 people new variant game with brand new rules as your first mod... just sayin'.
The idea is interesting, and merits lots of discussion, I just don't think entertaining thoughts of actually running it soon is realistic.
Post by: JanusTwoface on December 13, 2010, 03:10:13 pm
Active Games:
- Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia II (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=68920.0) (10 players, Day 5)
- Mafia Salad (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=70902.0) (9 players, Day 4)
- Don't Outguess the Mod 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=70932.0) (9 players, Day 1)
- BYOR 5.5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=72355.0) (13 players, Hasn't Started)
- BMXVIII (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=72178.0) (9 players, Day 1)
- The McCarthyism Game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=72791.0) (4/? players)
- Bring Your Own Winter Holiday Mafia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=72759.0) (6/? players)
So by all means, run something. It can't hurt to have more experienced mods. But plan on ~9 players.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on December 13, 2010, 03:19:27 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on December 13, 2010, 04:37:44 pm
Post by: JanusTwoface on December 13, 2010, 04:43:20 pm
It's very difficult to get a confirmed townie in an open setup.MOD: So-and-such is a confirmed townie.
EVERYONE: Lynch him!
Post by: Leafsnail on December 13, 2010, 04:44:19 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on December 13, 2010, 04:46:09 pm
Remember the very first "Kill Webadict Now"?It's very difficult to get a confirmed townie in an open setup.MOD: So-and-such is a confirmed townie.
EVERYONE: Lynch him!
Post by: webadict on December 13, 2010, 10:42:39 pm
I would've gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.Remember the very first "Kill Webadict Now"?It's very difficult to get a confirmed townie in an open setup.MOD: So-and-such is a confirmed townie.
EVERYONE: Lynch him!
Post by: Mr.Person on December 22, 2010, 12:05:59 am
Post by: Argembarger on December 22, 2010, 12:07:09 am
Post by: RedWarrior0 on December 22, 2010, 12:43:32 am
An idea for a game: Small number of player actually play the game, probably like 3 or 4. However, they don't vote to lynch. Instead, a group of ~9 players making up the jury decide who to lynch. Jurors get a QuickTopic that they use for throughout the game. Jurors and players may not communicate directly, although obviously the players can address the jury in general or even specific players in the jury. Jurors are free to discuss the game amongst themselves. Jurors who pick the scum win. The townies win if the mafioso is selected by the jury. The mafia wins if the jury selects someone else as guilty.Wasn't that basically one of the Boot Camp ideas before we settled on it?
More intriguing could be a "Hired" juror working for the mafia or something like that.
Or, God forbid, election-style Jury mafia, wherein a jury is systematically and anonymously elected overnight and the two or three leftovers attempt to prove innocence. The Jury votes anonymously on the lynchee and talks in the quicktopic anonymously.
Post by: Mr.Person on December 22, 2010, 12:49:44 am
Post by: Dariush on December 23, 2010, 08:03:46 am
No mafia (but players don't know it) - every day moderator himself picks someone to kill, lynches go as usual, all other roles are present (though moderator can't target any protected people)
2) Possessive Spirit:
Every day, a new mafia is selected. If a current mafioso is killed, next time one man less is selected. Other roles go as usual.
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 23, 2010, 08:05:40 am
1) Big Brother is watching you:
No mafia (but players don't know it) - every day moderator himself picks someone to kill, lynches go as usual, all other roles are present (though moderator can't target any protected people)
2) Possessive Spirit:
Every day, a new mafia is selected. If a current mafioso is killed, next time one man less is selected. Other roles go as usual.
1) How does town win?
2) How do people not work against their own interests? :I
Post by: Dariush on December 23, 2010, 08:48:03 am
2) They have to seek mafia short-term, during a single day. Any data acquired on previous days becomes obsolete.
Post by: Pandarsenic on December 23, 2010, 11:26:36 am
1) No way. Big Brother always wins :P
2) They have to seek mafia short-term, during a single day. Any data acquired on previous days becomes obsolete.
1) That sounds not fun at all, except as a one shot "OH HO HO HO HOW SILLY" thing.
2) Aaaand if they kill mafia then get lynched on their round as it, they screwed themselves. And if they kill town as mafia then are town when Mafia wins, they screwed themselves. That's... yeah.
Post by: Toaster on December 26, 2010, 02:52:31 pm
Questions for you: should the Kingmaker be allowed to claim? The role was on both games here, but I've seen it where the KM cannot claim. Which roles besides the standard ones (hero, doctor, merchant) should be considered?
Post by: webadict on December 26, 2010, 04:54:51 pm
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2011, 01:48:22 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on January 24, 2011, 02:50:38 pm
I was wondering what kinds of Third Parties people can come up with. I'm trying to come up with a larger list.
Just in general or for any specific setup?
Post by: Toaster on January 24, 2011, 03:12:53 pm
Obviously, in addition to Town and Mafia, we have SK, survivor, cult, jester, lyncher, and mafia-ally. Would you put in another flavor of SK (arsonist/doomspeaker)? A custom one with some flavor of oddball wincon is a possibility, but I have no ideas off the top of my head. Certainly the game mechanically would run better with a ninth player.
How would you do roles? A one-shot inspect for everyone aka TP2 or scattered roles like TP1?
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2011, 03:17:34 pm
Team: Win Condition
Town: At least one alive with no anti-Town factions alive.
Mafia: Outnumber the town with no killers alive.
Mafia-Ally: Mafia wins. (I believe this is the true win condition for MA.)
Survivor: Must be alive when the game ends.
SK: All others must be dead.
Cult: Outnumbers the town with no killers alive. Sometimes with, depending on the cult.
Lyncher: Lynch player "x" while alive.
Jester: Get lynched.
New/stolen ideas:
Martyr: Get killed.
Watcher: Get to Day "x"
Kidnapper: Kidnap "x" different alignments
Brother: Get player "x" to win.
Diviner: Correctly guess "x" lynches.
I'm kinda spitballing here, though.
Post by: Mr.Person on January 24, 2011, 03:56:34 pm
One possibility is to add a second cult leader and then make the townie a recruiting mason. Vwheehee!
Post by: Toaster on January 24, 2011, 04:03:10 pm
What if the lyncher's target is NKed? I know standard procedure is for him to become town, but what about in TPM?
New ones:
I like Martyr. Watcher is practically the same as Kidnapper in this version. Diviner and Brother are probably too hard. Would the Brother know the role of the target?
Also, I'd like some feedback on some proposed changes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73922.msg1909588#msg1909588) to Kingmaker.
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2011, 04:12:41 pm
Existing role wincons:The lyncher becomes Town if the target is killed.
What if the lyncher's target is NKed? I know standard procedure is for him to become town, but what about in TPM?
New ones:
I like Martyr. Watcher is practically the same as Kidnapper in this version. Diviner and Brother are probably too hard. Would the Brother know the role of the target?
Brother wouldn't actually be too difficult, as it'd be like flipped Mafia-Ally. You know who you're helping but not their alignment.
Watcher and Kidnapper weren't necessarily going to be in Third Party Mafia. These were actually ideas for BYOR more than anything else.
Diviner is a meh choice that was posted somewhere. We'll just scrap that one then.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 24, 2011, 05:18:31 pm
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2011, 05:20:02 pm
I guess you could have seeker, whose goal is to find or kill a specific role in the night.Like a Lyncher, but kill-oriented? That could work.
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 24, 2011, 06:11:40 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on January 24, 2011, 07:07:43 pm
I guess you could have seeker, whose goal is to find or kill a specific role in the night.
So an sk that randomly wins during the night?
Post by: Leafsnail on January 24, 2011, 07:51:07 pm
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2011, 09:29:54 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on January 24, 2011, 09:40:17 pm
"Random third party idea: A guy who makes players stoned, including players who don't have inspects themself. When everybody left alive is stoned, he wins and everybody else loses. Call him a hippy. Possibly make him show up as town to inspections, since he loves harmony and togetherness. This is to help him live long enough, of course."
Post by: Leafsnail on January 24, 2011, 09:45:15 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on January 24, 2011, 09:49:06 pm
Hmm... kindof like an arsonist who can't ignite till he's got everyone?
There's a good reason I never pushed for inclusion. The idea is solid, there's just a load of execution problems, the biggest of which you pointed out. Probably the best overall change would be to only make the player have to hit all the living mafia. That solves all kinds of issues, including the fact most games don't have many cops.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 24, 2011, 09:57:47 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on January 24, 2011, 10:29:47 pm
Post by: Toaster on January 24, 2011, 10:33:16 pm
Post by: webadict on January 24, 2011, 10:45:26 pm
If we're going with general ones, I've heard of Usurper (mafia + godfather has to be killed) quite a lot. I've never worked out if a usurper win means the godfather loses, though.Simply saying who the Mafia are would pretty much nullify this one.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 25, 2011, 10:52:10 am
Post by: webadict on January 25, 2011, 01:05:47 pm
No, his aim is mafia win and godfather dies. Revealing himself is auto loss (like it is for any other mafia member).I feel like this is a mafia-team role, instead of a new team.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 25, 2011, 01:12:28 pm
Uh... for actual new teams...
"Outsider" is something I've seen over at mafiascum, but it doesn't really have a base type like most of the other alignments do. The basic idea is that it's vaguely aligned with one side (generally town) but instead of having the normal wincon, they have to gain a certain number of points by the end of the game. They can earn points through, for instance, being on the wagon when a mafia member is lynched or successfully using their abilities against scum. They could also lose points for doing anti town actions (blocking town PRs or helping to lynch townies, for instance).
Note that if they're a roleblocker and they get/ lose points for blocking people, their current amount of points must be hidden to them (otherwise they become a cop too).
Alternatively, they could be scum aligned (and win points for helping with mislynches or blocking PRs) or self aligned with some strange goal.
Post by: webadict on January 25, 2011, 01:33:47 pm
Yeah, it is...Point-based? That could work, so long as they weren't scum-aligned. Being scum-aligned causes certainty in their actions, making winning easier. Self or town-oriented (as they aren't aligned) or even scum-oriented could be doable. It'd be kind of like the Diviner, but on a bigger scale with more flexibility.
Uh... for actual new teams...
"Outsider" is something I've seen over at mafiascum, but it doesn't really have a base type like most of the other alignments do. The basic idea is that it's vaguely aligned with one side (generally town) but instead of having the normal wincon, they have to gain a certain number of points by the end of the game. They can earn points through, for instance, being on the wagon when a mafia member is lynched or successfully using their abilities against scum. They could also lose points for doing anti town actions (blocking town PRs or helping to lynch townies, for instance).
Note that if they're a roleblocker and they get/ lose points for blocking people, their current amount of points must be hidden to them (otherwise they become a cop too).
Alternatively, they could be scum aligned (and win points for helping with mislynches or blocking PRs) or self aligned with some strange goal.
So far, that would make:
Town
Mafia
Mafia-Ally - See Brother for renaming issues.
SK
Survivor
Cult
Jester
Lyncher
Martyr
Brother - Might require a newer name. Perhaps Ally, since it works like Mafia-Ally. However, if that's the case, I think renaming Mafia-Ally to Ally would work, since they should be allowed to have a Cult-Ally or an SK-Ally or even a Jester-Ally! Mostly, this is all aesthetic.
Outsider
Watcher - This might need a new name, since the very idea was stolen from Paranormal. I would say it falls under Doomspeaker, but he kills them all, so that falls directly under SK.
Maybes:
Kidnapper - This one is still debatable. It could fall under the region of Outsider if taken to an extreme.
Seeker - Again, this could fall under Outsider. It also is a lot simpler than the Lyncher's goal, unless he isn't given a kill. In which case, it's now very difficult. Perhaps their target is Town.
That's 11 Teams with 2 Maybes. I approve.
Post by: Mr.Person on January 25, 2011, 04:41:23 pm
Post by: Jack A T on January 27, 2011, 12:42:40 am
Stupid ideas I've come up with that really should never be played:
*Game where everyone's a townie.
**Said game, but with almost everyone being a vigilante.
***All vigilantes don't actually know they're vigilantes.
Slightly more interesting ideas that I really can't handle making:
*Roll To Mafia: Because it has to eventually be done.
*Something focused on conspiracy theories.
Post by: Zathras on January 27, 2011, 12:47:03 am
*Roll To Mafia: Because it has to eventually be done.Heh. Something like that was done once, and was hilarious: Kill Webadict Now: Dakarian Edition (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=44803.msg867169#msg867169). Check it out....
Really should happen again one day.
*Something focused on conspiracy theories.Who made you say that?!
Post by: Jack A T on January 27, 2011, 12:51:43 am
*Something focused on conspiracy theories.Who made you say that?!
Ah, they've gotten to you too! Quick! Put this tinfoil hat on! It will allow you to speak freely. Our oppressive (to a rather scummy point) Illuminati Mafia Templar Government Freemason...oppressors are controlling our minds with chips! Steve Jackson knew, and that's why his company was raided by the secret service! (...that last bit is part of far too many serious conspiracy theories)
Wait, you're one of them, aren't you? Aren't you, Zathras?
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 27, 2011, 12:58:21 am
Also, there were RTD elements in a role in one of my BYORs, if I recall.
Post by: webadict on January 27, 2011, 07:37:33 am
Oh right, I need to run Illuminati Mafia some time.And in Dakarian's BYOR.
Also, there were RTD elements in a role in one of my BYORs, if I recall.
Post by: Mr.Person on January 27, 2011, 03:44:39 pm
All this would be spelt out beforehand... or not, if you want to get a little bastardish.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 27, 2011, 03:48:05 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on January 27, 2011, 03:53:10 pm
Post by: Darvi on January 27, 2011, 03:55:01 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on January 27, 2011, 03:56:05 pm
And if you roll a 6 then the gallows crashs and kills everybody, town and mafia alike xD
Pandarsenic, Serial Killer Engineer, has won!
Post by: Darvi on January 27, 2011, 03:56:46 pm
Oh my god! You bastard! :OAnd if you roll a 6 then the gallows crashs and kills everybody, town and mafia alike xD
Pandarsenic, Serial Killer Engineer, has won!
Post by: RedWarrior0 on January 27, 2011, 03:57:45 pm
Post by: Darvi on January 27, 2011, 03:58:31 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on January 27, 2011, 06:39:34 pm
Post by: Toaster on January 27, 2011, 11:39:06 pm
Irony's Original Idea (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=45016.msg1919086#msg1919086)
Person's Ideas (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=45016.msg1919430#msg1919430)
Toaster's Thoughts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=45016.msg1919696#msg1919696)
My last post moved here:
Can I help balance/name things?
Absolutely.
I had another thought on this. We could introduce classes. Everyone picks one at game start, probably before they find out their alignment. Each class gives a minor (generally) passive bonus that would differentiate the players a bit, and give them some control. They'd still have to play based on what they looted, but some plays would be stronger than others. I have a sample class list below the item list.
Everything is very subject to change.
I already changed the drop ratio to 60/25/10/5, since you'd almost always have an action to perform with just common drops (they're mostly one shots.) The better drops give you some choice and access to stronger powers.
Anyway, the list so far:
Scrolls are one shot
Wands are three shot
Staves are unlimited use
Common:
Scroll of Roleblock
Scroll of Inspection
Scroll of Protection
Scroll of Tracking (Track player)
Scroll of Distraction (Target is redirected at random)
Scroll of Treasure (Target gains a common or uncommon item, 75/25)
Uncommon:
Amulet of Life Saving (One shot revive, doesn’t work on lynches)
Ring of Free Action (RB immunity)
Wand of Watching (Track)
Wand of Discovery (Inspect)
Wand of Guards (Protect)
Wand of Slowing (Roleblock)
Scroll of Blasting (Kill)
Scroll of Greater Treasure (Target gains an uncommon or rare item, 50/50)
Rare:
Staff of Inaction (Roleblock)
Staff of Warding (Protect)
Staff of Scrying (Track)
Staff of True Sight (Inspect)
Wand of Doom (Kill)
Scroll of Solar Flare (Daykill)
Scroll of Ressurection (Revive other)
Scroll of Motivation (Target gains a vote next day)
Scroll of Gifts (May name any number of targets- each target is gifted per Scroll of Treasure)
Helm of Power (Extra Vote, limit 1)
Amulet of Necksaving (Prevent one lynch on you)
Amulet of Warding (Actions targeting you have a ⅓ chance of targetting someone else randomly)
Ring of Protection (Kills targetting you have a 50% chance to fail)
Shield of Death (If you are killed, the killer dies as well)
Artifact:
Armor of True Immunity: Daykill and Roleblock Immune
Obsidian Sword of Death: All your kills bypass protection
Cloak of Shadows: Takes an extra vote to lynch you, but you are a miller
Adamantium Armor: Kill immune, but takes one less vote to lynch you
Scroll of Endless Riches: As Scroll of Gifts, but targets with Greater Treasure
Classes:
Thief: Instead of questing, can choose to steal a random item from a player. The action happens at dusk and can’t be directly blocked.
Warrior: Kill actions have a 50% chance to bypass protections.
Mage: Using a scroll has a 50% chance to not use it up.
Bard: Starts with an uncommon instead of common.
Priest: Starts with a protect scroll in addition to random common.
Ranger: Has a 50% chance to bypass blocks.
Merchant: When discarding an item, gets a random item one rank below in exchange. Gets nothing for discarding a common.
Many items aren't balanced from a scum/town perspective, especially anything kill related. There are obviously many things that could be added here.
Post by: webadict on January 28, 2011, 12:16:58 am
I had another thought on this. We could introduce classes. Everyone picks one at game start, probably before they find out their alignment. Each class gives a minor (generally) passive bonus that would differentiate the players a bit, and give them some control. They'd still have to play based on what they looted, but some plays would be stronger than others. I have a sample class list below the item list.I like classes. Seems fair, except you might want it to be random, since picking a class will leave it a bit uneven. If everyone is random, then it'll be a lot easier to balance. Learn from BYOR 5.
Everything is very subject to change.Think of it like this:
I already changed the drop ratio to 60/25/10/5, since you'd almost always have an action to perform with just common drops (they're mostly one shots.) The better drops give you some choice and access to stronger powers.
60% = 3/5
25% = 1/4
10% = 1/10
5% = 1/20
Personally, I feel like this is too unbalanced towards rare items. It should be more like this:
75% = 3/4
20% = 1/5
4% = 1/25
1% = 1/100
Now, sure, you might think this is obscenely balanced away from rares, but I think that might be necessary. If it's 1 in 20 for getting a rare or artifact, then that's good enough.
Anyway, the list so far:Wands should be random of 1-4 (it's less likely to be successful the more times it's used), or reduce it to 2. 3 is a majority of the game.
Scrolls are one shot
Wands are three shot
Staves are unlimited use
Staves should be set to 3, in order for it to be more balanced.
Common:Nice, but could use more things. Consider potions, as then Mages wouldn't be overpowered. They act like Scrolls, but c
Scroll of Roleblock
Scroll of Inspection
Scroll of Protection
Scroll of Tracking (Track player)
Scroll of Distraction (Target is redirected at random)
Scroll of Treasure (Target gains a common or uncommon item, 75/25)
Uncommon:Amulet of Life Saving should be a rare, and should also work on lynches.
Amulet of Life Saving (One shot revive, doesn’t work on lynches)
Ring of Free Action (RB immunity)
Wand of Watching (Track)
Wand of Discovery (Inspect)
Wand of Guards (Protect)
Wand of Slowing (Roleblock)
Scroll of Blasting (Kill)
Scroll of Greater Treasure (Target gains an uncommon or rare item, 50/50)
Rare:Wand of Doom should be Wand of Death. (Not that it matters.)
Staff of Inaction (Roleblock)
Staff of Warding (Protect)
Staff of Scrying (Track)
Staff of True Sight (Inspect)
Wand of Doom (Kill)
Scroll of Solar Flare (Daykill)
Scroll of Ressurection (Revive other)
Scroll of Motivation (Target gains a vote next day)
Scroll of Gifts (May name any number of targets- each target is gifted per Scroll of Treasure)
Helm of Power (Extra Vote, limit 1)
Amulet of Necksaving (Prevent one lynch on you)
Amulet of Warding (Actions targeting you have a ⅓ chance of targetting someone else randomly)
Ring of Protection (Kills targetting you have a 50% chance to fail)
Shield of Death (If you are killed, the killer dies as well)
Amulet of necksaving should be removed for the Amulet of life saving, which would cover both.
Don't make a scroll of resurrection. It'll end up badly.
Artifact:Cloak of Shadows seems underpowered for an artifact.
Armor of True Immunity: Daykill and Roleblock Immune
Obsidian Sword of Death: All your kills bypass protection
Cloak of Shadows: Takes an extra vote to lynch you, but you are a miller
Adamantium Armor: Kill immune, but takes one less vote to lynch you
Scroll of Endless Riches: As Scroll of Gifts, but targets with Greater Treasure
Classes:Thief is bad, as he can steal artifacts and others. There needs to be a chance to fail (probably 50%) in order for it to be fair.
Thief: Instead of questing, can choose to steal a random item from a player. The action happens at dusk and can’t be directly blocked.
Warrior: Kill actions have a 50% chance to bypass protections.
Mage: Using a scroll has a 50% chance to not use it up.
Bard: Starts with an uncommon instead of common.
Priest: Starts with a protect scroll in addition to random common.
Ranger: Has a 50% chance to bypass blocks.
Merchant: When discarding an item, gets a random item one rank below in exchange. Gets nothing for discarding a common.
I'd come up with some stuff, but I'm tried. Good night.
Post by: Mr.Person on January 28, 2011, 01:06:43 am
Are you sure you want to make the list of items public knowledge? I'm not saying you should, I just want you to think about it.
Also, you COULD make players have to ID their items, although that gets into bastard territory very fast.
Artifacts should be immutable and impossible to destroy, although the owner can get rid of them.. generally.
Common:
Scroll of fire: All scrolls owned by targeted player burn to nothing.
Scroll of darkness: Other actions against target have a 50/50 chance of failing.
Scroll of enchant armor: Target gains additional 25% kill resistance.
Scroll of enchant weapon: Target's kill gain additional 25% chance to ignore kill resistance.
Wand of slow: Target's action that night is performed last. (A roleblock for some roles, does nothing for others. Mostly stop protections and roleblocks, so townies might just want to ditch this.)
Uncommon:
Wand of invisibility: Makes target untargetable by anything else. Can be used on yourself along with an additional item.
Amulet of preservation: All items can't be destroyed by outside sources
Scroll of speed: Target can use an additional action during the next night
Scroll of draining: Target's wands are drained of all charges.
Ring of true sight: Actions by you can target otherwise untargettable players.
Rare:
Scroll of recharging: Targeted player has all wands gain 2 charges.
Scroll of wishing: Pick any item. You now have it. Artifacts can't have more than one copy exist and have a 50/50 chance of not appearing on top of the no duplicates rule.
Scroll of destruction: All items of targeted player are destroyed.
Scroll of invulnerability: Target can't be killed this night.
Scroll of time stop: Night ends (roleblocks happen first, but everything else doesn't happen)
Amulet of reflection: All wands or staves aimed at you are reflected back to the user.
Wand of polymorpth: All items held by targeted player are replaced with random same-rarity items.
Artifact:
The One Ring: Can't be gotten rid of and is only distributed to townies. Each night can be used to make you untargetable and unkillable, but then has a 50/50 chance of publicly revealing that you have The One Ring and deactivating. Non-town players with The One Ring gain their own kill and additional vote. Townies can freely give The One Ring to another players (Did anybody else play LoTR Mafia like two years ago or whatever?)
Boots of Blinding Speed: Each night you can use two actions, but they have random targets. You do get told who got used with what.
Deck of Many Things: Pick a player and find out what card you drew that night! (Each night, generate a random item until you make a scroll, wand, or staff. The deck acts as that item for the rest of the night)
Legacy Weapon: Targeted player and everything they own disappears. Forever. This includes artifacts. Players killed this way don't roleflip. This isn't a kill and can't be protected against.
Brooch of the Phoenix: If you would die or be lynched, instead a random other player dies.
Web's renames and "oLS ideas are EXACTLY what I thought when I read you ideas, Toaster.
Post by: Argembarger on January 28, 2011, 03:04:02 am
Post by: Zathras on January 28, 2011, 03:43:41 am
Quote from: Toaster
Warrior: Kill actions have a 50% chance to bypass protections.I'd reduce those 50%s to 25%s or even less. I like the idea of classes, but 50% chance to bypass protection neutralises too many items (scum would pick this every time), and 50% chance to not use up a scroll will result in unbalanced amounts of wealth.
Mage: Using a scroll has a 50% chance to not use it up.
Ranger: Has a 50% chance to bypass blocks.
I understand why Wuba says they should be random, and yet I like the idea of one picking one's own class, like in a true roguelike. Maybe give an extra perk, like a common item, if the player chooses randomly or lets the mod choose for balance?
I'm also in favour of wands being 2-shot, but would prefer staves to be permanent.
Have you given thought to item sharing/trading? Say I announce on thread "I have a duplicated useful scroll, willing to trade for a different one", and handle specifics/transactions over PMs (would PMs be allowed in this game?).
Would a roleblock prevent you from using a scroll?
Each night, one can choose to Quest and receive an item (maybe with a chance to fail?) instead of/in addition to an action, yes? What restrictions would exist on this? Can I quest and do the Mafiakill on the same night?
Are you sure you want to make the list of items public knowledge? I'm not saying you should, I just want you to think about it.I think the overall list of items that could exist should be public, yes.
Quote from: Person
Also, you COULD make players have to ID their items, although that gets into bastard territory very fast.Oh gods, no. Very bastardly. Would also ensure no one acts N1 (except for the mafiakill) as everyone spends it IDing their first item(s).
Quote from: Person
Scroll of speed: Target can use an additional action during the next nightThoughts on these:
Scroll of draining: Target's wands are drained of all charges.
Scroll of recharging: Targeted player has all wands gain 2 charges.
Scroll of wishing: Pick any item. You now have it. Artifacts can't have more than one copy exist and have a 50/50 chance of not appearing on top of the no duplicates rule.
Scroll of destruction: All items of targeted player are destroyed.
Scroll of speed: Should be a potion (same thing, one use, just a cosmetic change; speed should be a potion).
Scroll of draining: Should be "scroll of Cancellation" and maybe blank scrolls as well, but see "destruction" below.
Scroll of recharging: Should be "scroll of charging" (just cosmetic change).
Scroll of wishing: Should be a wand (as above, one-shot, work like a scroll, can't be charged, but should be a "wand of wishing", not scroll. Maybe a "magic lamp"?).
Scroll of destruction: Too evil/powerful; maybe give each item a 1/3 chance to save? Shouldn't destroy artefacts.
I think this idea has great potential!
Post by: Mr.Person on January 28, 2011, 06:34:23 am
I see no problem with scroll of draining if your only problem is that it's not in Nethack. I would make this a wand, but the effect is too good on a wand. Hell, the effect is already fairly nice as a 1-shot. And no, it really shouldn't blank scroll/potions since then you'd have player getting an item, only to have it be destroyed the turn they got it. That's unfun if it happens too often, which with the only scroll-destoyers on rare and only a few fairly rare wand destroyers, this shouldn't happen too often. I've decided my earlier "scroll of fire" suggestion would be unfun, so remove that. It's unfun and boring.
I wasted a wand of wishing in Nethack once because I wished for "2 blessed scrolls of recharging" instead of "2 blessed scrolls of charging", so yeah, I should of remembered that one.
If you're going to have a wand of wishing with only 1 charge and not be chargeable, what's the point of having it be a wand in the first place? Just to make things simple, 1-shots should always be scrolls. If there has to be an exception, wishing is memorable enough to make for this one to be "Magic Lamp", but I stand by scroll of wishing. I think Elona has wishing on scrolls, so again, if your only problem is that Nethack has /oWishing, that's not good enough.
Scroll of destruction is fine. It's only "evil" if the target has multiple passives, but this scroll is rare enough that random "lol, i desto ur items HUEHUEHUEHUEHUE" won't be rampant, but common enough that you still have to watch out. And if your 1-shots are getting destroyed that often, perhaps you should just use them? I said earlier that artifacts should be immune to destruction and mutation.
Also, I think the public pool should have a free item stuck in it each day, free for the taking if somebody wants to go for it. To encourage people to actually make a grab for this loot, give a better-than-normal chance to not be common. If we go with Web's numbers, I'd be fine with 35%/55%/9%/1% (common, uncommon, rare, artifact). If more than one player goes for it, randomly pick one. The rest get nothing.
More items since I have loads of fun doing this. I'm trying to figure out how to make a "foo of bones to bananas" work. I was thinking a removal of the dead player's corpses, but that sounds kinda boring. (I want to reference everything eventually, so there you go Runescape)
Common:
Scroll of confusion: The next player you action is randomized in addition to whatever you did in the first place (I don't think confuse monster is an appropriate name here). Does not actually give you an action to use against anybody you want to confuse, however.
Scroll of object detection: You get a list of all items in the public pool of items.
Scroll of monster detection: You get a list of who targeted a player of your choice. (Wait, am I messing up which action is track again? Regardless, scrolls of tracking, watching, and patrolling are all fun)
Uncommon:
Ring of resist poison: Immune to poison. Note that gaining this item won't cure any poison you had when you put the ring on!
Amulet of clarity: Immune to confusion, hallucination, ect. Be careful to actually list everything this makes you immune to, but the general rule of thumb should be that if it causes you to change targets, you're now immune to it.
Wand of probing: Learn what items, if any, the targeted player has.
Wand of haste: Target's action that night happens before all other actions (this might result in a loop, but check all roleblocks. If the haster isn't going to be blocked, do the hastee's action, then do everything else.)
Rare:
Wand of poison: Poison target during the night. At the beginning of the next day (not the upcoming one), the target dies.
Wand of cloning: Gain copies of all your currently carried items except artifacts, wands of cloning, and anything that provides wishes.
Magic marker: Turn any scroll you carry into any lesser-rarity scroll of your choice.
Artifact:
Antimagic Mail: Scrolls, potions, and wands no longer function on you at all. However, you can't use any of those and your passive items and artifacts also don't function. If you want to use them, you're gonna have to ditch this armor.
Isochron Scepter: After you gain possession of this sceptor, you may sacrifice a common or uncommon scroll you own to gain a staff with that scroll's effect. Be warned: once a spell has been placed on this scepter, it can't be removed. If you gain this scepter with a spell already on it, you'll be able to detect what spell was placed on it.
Note about earlier stuff: Did I really type "ring of true sight"? What the heck, that should be "ring of see invisible".
Post by: Org on January 28, 2011, 06:40:34 am
Or at least a scroll?
One-shot bypass all.
Post by: webadict on January 28, 2011, 08:30:24 am
I agree speed flavorfuly fits better as a potion, but I don't see the benefit, really. Making it a potion adds the problem of "how do I force someone else to drink my potion?" from the flavor department, so then of course you wind up making all the potions self-target only.Throw it at them. I always assumed potions could be absorbed through the skin.
Post by: Toaster on January 28, 2011, 10:00:57 am
Lots of good potential here.
Item classes- Item types (of at least consumables) should be standardized, so as to limit confusion. That's why I specified how many uses scrolls/wands/staves have. I'm not against limiting them to 1/2/3 uses- that probably is more balanced. It's unlikely that a single item would see more than three uses anyway. Random charges would make things less fun IMO- you'd annoy players who waste their night action. If we differentiated scrolls and potions, I'd say make all potions self-only so there's an observable difference. This isn't NetHack- we don't have to think of everything. We *could* standardize ring and amulet effects, but that might hurt flavor too much.
You're also probably right on standardizing the name of common effects across item classes (scroll/wand/staff of protection)- I was just feeling creative.
Item destruction- Make artifacts immune and I don't see much problem with it. Remember, the more items we have, the less likely each one is to appear. On that note...
Item rarity- Lowering the rare item rate even further (per Web) is probably good. Even commons can be interesting, and you'll almost certainly get at least one item a day to use, and one wand/staff can give you choices. Further, should there be some sort of weighted drop rate within rarities? For example, make scrolls of the common abilities weighted twice as much in the common pool to make them more likely? Artifacts and maybe rares could remain equal weight.
Free item pool- I like the idea of seeding it. Maybe drop two items in there at start, and one more every day? The order of pool diving would be random, and you'd get a random item out of it. The diving would happen at dusk, so the lynched player's items would be in there.
Classes: I'm sure they need a balance pass.
Warrior and Ranger: Probably do need a drop to 25%.
Wizard: I'm not so sure on this one. It only affect scrolls, not wands or staves. If we added potions, it wouldn't affect those either.
Thief: 50% sounds too low. Maybe a 75% chance and it can't steal artifacts? 100% and can only steal consumables? (If there aren't any valid targets, you fail)
Choosing versus random: I like the idea of random giving you a minor perk. If they did choose, making them do it before they know their alignment would help balance town versus scum classes.
Trading: I'm not sure on this one. It certainly needs to be addressed for scum, though. I get the feeling letting scum swap items freely would be too strong. It'd at least have to be limited to night, so that a scum about to be lynched can't give away all his items.
Questing: My thought was this was something everyone does by default, with you getting your item at dusk, so it's available that night. Anyone could PM the mod and specify they want to dive in the free pool instead, and thieves could specify someone to steal from. It'd be separate from day/night actions, and prevent you from neither. (This gives a steady stream of items.) As I said earlier, if you have two items already, your odds of getting a new item would drop (2/N chance of a new item.) You could ditch items at dawn or dusk.
ID: While it's integral to roguelikes, it won't fit here. However, if we did a bastard mod version of this, just throw in cursed items...
Availability of the list: Make all the commons through rares visible, with a selection of artifacts listed. However, mod choice could add or subtract artifacts at will. Additionally, at the beginning of each game, randomly select 10% of the items on the list- they will never be generated. This could be limited to uncommons and rares.
Day abilities: Should they be included? I'm the only one that listed them. If day kills/inpects are too much, it could be limited to certain self-only actions (I think Magic Marker would be a good fit if we did that.)
Specific items:
Web: You were saying something about potions, but it got cut off. In any case, I fully agree there need to be more commons- that was a sample list.
AoLS: You're absolutely right it should be a rare. If we're making rares rarer, then I'm fine with it working on lynches.
Cloak of Shadows: Probably. Make it a rare? It's good for scum, though.
Scroll of enchant armor/weapon: How long are those effects? One night or rest of game? If rest of game, they seem strong for commons. Make it 33%, but uncommon?
Wand of Invisibility: I'm not sold on allowing an extra action with it.
Amulet of Preservation: Would that stop items being stolen? I say no.
Scroll of Wishing: I'd limit it to rares and below, but if the "don't generate X items" idea above is used, it CAN get those.
Scroll of Destruction: Wouldn't work on artifacts.
Scroll of Greater Treasure: Absolutely. On the item-giving scrolls in general: should they be self-targetable? I have an inkling of going against the grain here and making all items (even protects) self-targetable in this game.
Wand of Cloning: Too strong for wand. Use it two nights in a row and you have four copies of everything else.
Magic Marker: There are so few uncommon scrolls that it should probably be equal or lesser. How many times is it usable?
Post by: Toaster on February 07, 2011, 01:11:45 pm
Item list (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AvFsNFGsoA1KdGZsTVZfY3VmX0w3OVhoRk5PaEl5NVE&hl=en&authkey=CI-PoZUM)
I put in some of the changes I mentioned above, and added two items:
(Uncommon) Scroll of Scrying: You are told all players who either action or are actioned by your target
(Rare) Scroll of Permament Scrying: You are told all players who either action or are actioned by your target for the rest of the game.
Any more thoughts? I thought more about seeding the public pool, and I'm now against it- I think I'd rather just start it with 4 items, and guarantee that at least one is better than common. Also, what about day actions? So far, we have a (rare) daykill scroll, and that's it.
I'm going to try to flesh out the item list a bit more.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on February 07, 2011, 02:54:23 pm
Post by: Toaster on February 07, 2011, 02:59:34 pm
For fun, here's what I've added since my last post:
Common:
Scroll of Detect Artifact: At the end of the night, you receive a count of all artifacts that are in the game.
Uncommon:
Scroll of Ill Will: The target has one of the following effects applied at random: roleblock, redirect at random, loss of a random item, or is poisoned.
Scroll of Blessing: The target has one of the following effects applied at random: protection, Scroll of Treasure, Scroll of Enchant Armor, Scroll of Enchant Weapon, or immunity to redirects.
Wand of the Guardian: You may guard another player. The first time that player is targetted with a night kill, that kill is prevented. You and the person who performed the kill die instead.
Scroll of Attraction: Choose two players. Those two players will target each other with their actions tonight.
Scroll of Swapping: Choose two players. All actions that would target one player target the other instead.
Scroll of Self Defense: You will kill the next person who actions you. This effect lasts until it triggers.
Scroll of the Ninja Looter: You take all the items of the next player who dies. Due to your thieving intent, you are a miller until this effect triggers.
Scroll of the Oracle: Choose three targets. You will be told how many of them are town, but not which ones.
Wand of Hallucination: Choose two targets. You project an illusion that makes it appear as though the the first target visited the second.
Rare:
Wand of Ill Will: The target has one of the following effects applied at random: roleblock, redirect at random, loss of a random item, or is poisoned.
Wand of Blessing: The target has one of the following effects applied at random: protection, Scroll of Treasure, Scroll of Enchant Armor, Scroll of Enchant Weapon, or immunity to redirects.
Ring of Mimicry: If any player actions you, you perform the same action on them. You are not told which player actions you, though you will learn the name of any player that you perform an inspection action on.
Helmet of Telepathy: Once per night, independent of other actions, you may PM the mod a message and a player. The mod will forward the message to that player. The target will not know the originator of the message unless you tell them so in the message.
Ring of Communication: You may sacrifice this ring to open a Mason Chat with another player for the rest of the game. This chat has no guarantee of alignment.
Wand of Attraction: Choose two players. Those two players will target each other with their actions tonight.
Wand of Swapping: Choose two players. All actions that would target one player target the other instead.
Scroll of Item Knowledge: At the end of the night, you receive a count of all the items each player has.
Ring of Plenty: Any player targetted by you gains a random common item.
Scroll of Exchange: Choose two players other than yourself. At the end of the night, they exchange all items.
Wand of Disabling: Target player is roleblocked. They may not action the following day, and their vote does not count.
Stone of Draining:If you are targeted by a wand or staff, it is reduced to zero charges.
Artifact:
The Golden Cornocopia: Every night, each player has a 50% chance to gain a random item via standard drop rates. If you are killed, your killer gains possession of this. If you are lynched, every player who voted for you gains an item via standard drop rate, and this item vanishes.
Post by: Mr.Person on February 07, 2011, 03:15:43 pm
Common:
Scroll of Detect Artifact: At the end of the night, you receive a count of all artifacts that are in the game.
Called "Oracle Scroll" in Elona, I think.
Post by: Toaster on February 07, 2011, 03:19:20 pm
Do we have a DF reference in here yet?
Post by: Ottofar on February 07, 2011, 03:32:51 pm
Post by: Toaster on February 07, 2011, 03:44:03 pm
Irony, any thoughts? This was your idea to start with.
Post by: Toaster on February 07, 2011, 05:01:32 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
All lynches were random, and NKs were random townies. No actions were considered. I used the 75/20/4/1 drop ratio.
Looking at the results, a few things stood out:
1. We need more common items.
2. Having said that, weighting the more useful ones to appear more often may be good.
3. We need more common items.
4. With 40 item generations, that gives an expected generation ratio of 30 commons, 8 uncommons, and 2 rares or artifacts, favoring rares 4/5 of the time. I'm thinking we made it a bit too conservative. I want to poke some numbers around to tweak the drop ratio, but nothing as severe as a 5% artifact ratio- I think 1%, or at highest 2% is good for that.
The items themselves need some review (again, especially commons).
Post by: JanusTwoface on February 07, 2011, 05:03:04 pm
:)
Could be interesting.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on February 07, 2011, 06:41:29 pm
Hm. Not sure how to balance that one. Is it instead or in addition to their desired action?Hm... Kills would be instead of, but other actions, I'm not sure. I want something similar to the Nethack item, where everything starts attacking everything else, regardless of alignment.
(Completely off-topic: It's fun when you start with two scrolls and a wand of Create Monster and a Ring of Conflict.)
Post by: Mr.Person on February 07, 2011, 06:43:24 pm
Post by: webadict on February 07, 2011, 10:23:31 pm
70/20/9/1?I think 66/26/7/1 might be slightly better. Not that I care to up the rare amount. There were plenty of chances for rares. It just was unlucky.
Post by: Toaster on February 07, 2011, 10:33:42 pm
70/20/9/1
28/8/4
66/26/7/1
26.4/10.4/3.2
65/25/9/1
26/10/4
I like the latter two more than the first- uncommons aren't common enough at 20%. The last two probably aren't different enough to make a major difference- the numbers are just cleaner in the last.
Any ideas for commons? Also, unless I see an objection, the scrolls for inspect/RB/protect/track/watch (see who actions the target) are going to be appear twice in the list and therefore appear twice as often.
Post by: webadict on February 07, 2011, 10:39:48 pm
Assuming 40 standard drops (common/unc/rare+art)Don't make inspect or watch twice as likely. Inspect is pretty powerful on its own.
70/20/9/1
28/8/4
66/26/7/1
26.4/10.4/3.2
65/25/9/1
26/10/4
I like the latter two more than the first- uncommons aren't common enough at 20%. The last two probably aren't different enough to make a major difference- the numbers are just cleaner in the last.
Any ideas for commons? Also, unless I see an objection, the scrolls for inspect/RB/protect/track/watch (see who actions the target) are going to be appear twice in the list and therefore appear twice as often.
Post by: Toaster on February 08, 2011, 10:56:46 am
Scroll of Command: The target actions you tonight.
Scroll of Insight: The next time your target would be changed, it is not changed.
Scroll of the Clear Mind: The target cannot be redirected this night.
Wand of Cantrips: You perform a random action on a random target. Possible actions: inspect, randomize, track, protect, block, grant common item
Scroll of Knowledge: You learn of all actions that target you tonight. You do not know who performed these actions.
I also changed these, because I felt they were strong as-is:
Scroll of enchant armor: Target gains 25% kill resistance. This does not stack with itself.
Scroll of enchant weapon: Target's kill gain additional 20% chance to ignore kill resistance. This does not stack with itself.
I kind of want to move those to uncommon and buff them a bit back up, but I'd like more commons to replace them- I want at least 20 commons (which there are right now).
Post by: Mr.Person on February 09, 2011, 06:26:10 am
I also changed these, because I felt they were strong as-is:
Scroll of enchant armor: Target gains 25% kill resistance. This does not stack with itself.
Scroll of enchant weapon: Target's kill gain additional 20% chance to ignore kill resistance. This does not stack with itself.
I made them common because there needs to be as many commons as possible. Of course, I was kinda forcing them into common, so moot point.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 11, 2011, 10:03:02 pm
You could probably also get a fair amount of mileage out of the "this night only" or "stays on the target until it activates" distinction.
Post by: Toaster on February 11, 2011, 10:09:49 pm
Irony, is this a game you were planning on running or just thoughts you were putting out? If you're not planning to run it, I'd like to some time.
Post by: Book on February 11, 2011, 10:20:55 pm
One additional thing you can do to multiply your commons is to make potions in addition to scrolls. Potion of protect, scroll of protect, two items with the same effect/function. Unless you want to make potions only be used on self, but probably not -- just throwing the potion should work if you want to affect someone else.
I'm very much looking forward to this game.
Post by: Toaster on February 11, 2011, 10:24:50 pm
Scroll of the Thick Skull: The target is both randomized and protected.
Scroll of Sticky Sap: Target's action is delayed until the next night.
Scroll of Jailing: The target is both blocked and protected.
Scroll of Safe Travels: The target is both tracked and protected.
Five new commons. The last three exist as uncommon wands as well.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 11, 2011, 11:21:23 pm
The conditionals was mostly to power down effects so they could be common, though I'm having trouble coming up with good examples. Even a staff of nightkill on inspect is kinda weak for a common, at least in a game where you're likely to get other options.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on February 12, 2011, 12:08:35 am
Scroll of Tenacity: Target may not be roleblocked, mirrored, redirected, copied, or mimicked.
Post by: Mr.Person on February 12, 2011, 03:29:06 am
Scroll of Snooping: The next time the target uses an item, you are told the name of that item.
Scroll of the Thick Skull: The target is both randomized and protected.
Scroll of Sticky Sap: Target's action is delayed until the next night.
Scroll of Jailing: The target is both blocked and protected.
Scroll of Safe Travels: The target is both tracked and protected.
Five new commons. The last three exist as uncommon wands as well.
The first and last ones are definitely too good to be common. There has to be a better name for that first one. We could use Object Detection and rename the version I suggested earlier as "Tresure Detection"."Sticky Sap" there should be "Paralysis". Scroll of Jailing should probably be called "Scroll of Petrification" with the flavor being you're turning the target into a very hard statue for the night that's incapable of moving... or being damaged. Sounds better as a wand or staff than "Wand of Jailing" and "Staff of Jailing" and is more Nethackish. Again, sounds more Nethackish and sounds better on a stick. There's no way you would know this, but "Think Skull" there should just be called "Hallucination". In Nethack, hallucinating gives you death ray immunity. The specific message is "The death ray hits you! You have an out of body experience...". See my next paragraph for why this is relevant. Not trying to sound nerdy or anything, I just know a LOT about Nethack. Those are all good ideas, I'm just a stickler about keeping everying "on theme", even if that theme is already really loose and kind of a joke.
I recommend, mostly for flavor but partially to cover corner cases, that the mafia's kill count as an item named "Finger of Death" or "Spellbook of FoD". I do not know what kind of effect this would have on the game besides making "gives name of target's item" items very, very powerful.
Sorry if any of these repeat names/effects, I just can't remember everything.
Common:
Scroll of Corrosion: Target loses any enchantments to armor and weapon. (This might be unfun, especially at common, so I dunno. Maybe restrict this to a wand at uncommon?)
Scroll of Mail: Let's you send an anonymous message to one player. (Definitely one that needs a staff version at rare and wand at uncommon)
Ring of Warning: After each night, you get told how many people targeted you. (Bump this up to uncommon if there's enough commons. It's a bit strong as a common and a bit weak as an uncommon, and it's better to be too weak than too strong. Still, we really need more commons badly.)
Scroll of Mesmerization: Target is redirected to you. Using this on oneself results in roleblocking. (Comes in wand and staff versions)
Uncommon:
Belt of Carrying: Your max carrying capacity increases to 4 (multiples don't stack). (Power is fine for a common, it's just a bit boring most of the time. Maybe all the more reason to make it common? It's just no relevant very often unless lots of gifts appear or you get tons of durable items)
Cloak of Preservation: Your items are all immune to damage, destruction, and corrosion. Does not prevent theft or polymorphing. (Power is fine for common, it's just kind of annoying to a corroder if most of the playerbase is immune already)
Rare:
Scroll of Scare Monster: You automatically roleblock anyone else who targets you. Stops working when you quest to get an item or use an item on another player. (I'm assuming you may choose not to quest for an item each night)
Post by: Book on February 12, 2011, 03:50:32 am
Scroll of Jailing should probably be called "Scroll of Petrification" with the flavor being you're turning the target into a very hard statue for the night that's incapable of moving... or being damaged.Should be "Scroll of Flesh to Stone".
"Think Skull" there should just be called "Hallucination". In Nethack, hallucinating gives you death ray immunity. The specific message is "The death ray hits you! You have an out of body experience...".Hell yeah! Next morning: "Everything looks SO boring now..."
Scroll of Corrosion: Target loses any enchantments to armor and weapon.Uhm... "confused Destroy Armour"?
Ring of Warning: After each night, you get told how many people targeted you.I like this, and would make it common.
Scroll of Mesmerization: Target is redirected to you. Using this on oneself results in roleblocking.Roleblocking self? "Scroll of Amnesia".
Belt of Carrying: Your max carrying capacity increases to 4 (multiples don't stack).Should be "Bag of Holding"... but I didn't know we had such limited carrying capacity! I'd think four should be the standard, and the bag would increase it to eight or so...
Cloak of Preservation: Your items are all immune to damage, destruction, and corrosion.Oilskin Cloak?
Not trying to sound nerdy or anything, I just know a LOT about Nethack.Yeah! Let's have more! Altars! Unicorn Horns! Praying! Engraving Elbereth! Fountains and Sinks! Scum can sacrifice a human corpse and summon Demogorgon! 8-)
Heheheh. Oh the possibilities are endless...
Post by: Toaster on February 12, 2011, 09:38:53 pm
Anyway...
Scroll of Corrosion: In. It's fine as common- the enchant scrolls are common and helps balance them out.
I like Scroll of Mail, but just as a scroll. There's a rare (Helm of Telepathy) that gives this effect permanently (limit one per night, doesn't count as night action).
Ring of Warning's fine- it'd be the only permanent common. Same as the Crouton ability from Mafia Salad.
?oMesmerization is already in.
We have an item limit? I don't see the point- KISS.
We have this as uncommon already: Amulet of preservation: All items can't be destroyed by outside sources
I like ?oScare Monster. Right now, you can choose to go look in the item pool- there's no issue adding a "do nothing" choice. Should mafiakills end this effect?
Speaking of ADOM:
Scroll of Danger: When you use this item, you have equal items of getting an uncommon item, a rare item, nothing, or dying.
Uncommon? Should there be an additional chance of something happening?
Post by: Toaster on February 12, 2011, 09:46:59 pm
I did give you folks the link to the list, right?
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AvFsNFGsoA1KdGZsTVZfY3VmX0w3OVhoRk5PaEl5NVE&hl=en&authkey=CI-PoZUM
Post by: Mr.Person on February 13, 2011, 05:08:16 am
Yeah! Let's geek out!
Aha, my good man, for you may be a Nethack geek, but I have played a great many roguelikes in my time! You are but a fool before my reservoir of knowledge!
Scroll of Jailing should probably be called "Scroll of Petrification" with the flavor being you're turning the target into a very hard statue for the night that's incapable of moving... or being damaged.Should be "Scroll of Flesh to Stone".
The only reason Nethack has "Stone to Flesh" is that there's no common name for that. Animation, maybe, and if we wanted an effect like that it would be ?oTukima's Dance (animates your wielded weapon, spell and unique from Crawl) or ?oGolem Creation (IVAN). Either way, so many other rogeulikes (ADOM, I think, Angband definitely, Nethack, I think) specifically use the term "petrify" that I'm willing to ignore the really, really, really Nethackish sounding effect. Although really, either is fine. I'm not going to go into a nerdrage that you're using flesh to stone over petrify.
Scroll of Corrosion: Target loses any enchantments to armor and weapon.Uhm... "confused Destroy Armour"?
This is one area I'm firmly against inheriting from Nethack. Most players probably aren't even aware scrolls in Nethack act differently if one is confused. Corrosion is an effect very common among roguelikes. We could just use "Scroll of Disintegrate Equipment" if we want to steal a spell effect from TES. I'd also accept "Scroll of Disenchanting" and "Cursed Scroll of Enchant Armor", if you really want this from Nethack. Although if we don't want this to be in scroll form, a better name for a wand/rod is "Acid Bolt", which is an exact spell name from SLASH'EM.
Scroll of Mesmerization: Target is redirected to you. Using this on oneself results in roleblocking.Roleblocking self? "Scroll of Amnesia".
Roleblocking oneself was more a corner-case cutting joke, although now I'm starting to regret that since those kinds of jokes are Nethack's biggest problem. Consider it a DTTOE.
Mesmerization is an effect you can have placed under you in Crawl. You can only move closer to or target anything in the general direction of whatever is mesmerizing you. I think only mermaids can mesmerize. It's not an actual scroll, but it sounds cool as a scroll imo, and sounds really cool as a wand and staff.
Belt of Carrying: Your max carrying capacity increases to 4 (multiples don't stack).Should be "Bag of Holding"... but I didn't know we had such limited carrying capacity! I'd think four should be the standard, and the bag would increase it to eight or so...
I thought I saw a 3-item-limit earlier. Oh well. Belt of Carrying is from IVAN. BoH should be rare while the belt is uncommon. Artifact would be "Wallet of Perseus" and comes from SLASH'EM. It's a BoH but makes think 1/6's times as light when blessed instead of 1/4. In light of what was said later, I actually kind of agree a carrying capacity is a bit superfluous outside of encouraging players to actually use the items they collect instead of hoarding.
Cloak of Preservation: Your items are all immune to damage, destruction, and corrosion.Oilskin Cloak?
Oilskin cloak isn't really memorable since everybody just greases a better cloak. CoP is from Crawl. Granted it's also pretty useless, but at least it matches what it does in-game. Oilskin would be something like "Players who target you gain a 50% chance of missing, wasting the charge of the item they used against you", although that sounds really good, even as a rare.
Not trying to sound nerdy or anything, I just know a LOT about Nethack.Yeah! Let's have more! Altars! Unicorn Horns! Praying! Engraving Elbereth! Fountains and Sinks! Scum can sacrifice a human corpse and summon Demogorgon! 8-)
Heheheh. Oh the possibilities are endless...
Unihorn should probably go in, even if it's as like an infinity-use poison-curer. I cannot believe I forgot about the unihorn when I was thinking of Nethack items. Granted I was thinking mostly of cloaks and helmets and other equipment, but hey, a unihorn pays for itself the first time you use it.
I guess count me in as the ADOM expert, then... not that I've put many references to it in there. Could rename one of those artifact armors Moloch Armor...
Good, I didn't play much ADOM. All I know is that eating quicklings will make you faster, emperor liches are annoying, the Bracers of War are good, and don't stand on altars or you'll get sacrificed. With your ADOM knowledge, Book's Nethack knowledge (have I mentioned I've ascended? Suck it), and my Crawl knowledge, we're only missing some
Scroll of Danger: When you use this item, you have equal items of getting an uncommon item, a rare item, nothing, or dying.
Uncommon? Should there be an additional chance of something happening?
I really, really want to use this on someone else. Either way, I like it. Uncommon is good since if it was common there'd be too many suicides/murders committed with this thing. Rare isn't cool since it's not a sure thing. Quick idea for another uncommon: /oRandomEffects comes right out of Crawl. Randomly protects, roleblocks, kills, or does nothing, equal chances. You could do it as a scroll at common and staff at rare, although I'm not sure I like having this many random chance kills floating around if it gets to rare.
Artifact:
Planepacked - Carrying this artifact means you've already won merely due to how awesome it is. Note that if you die, you've dropped this feat of science and no longer reap its benefits! (As long as you hold it, you're a survivor and no longer obstruct anyone else's win con. If you die, you revert back to your previous win-con). Alternatively, if you want this effect to just be rare, call it "Helm of Opposite Alignment" and make anyone holding it into a survivor. Survivors randomly turn into townies or mafia-ally although MA and survivor are pretty much the same thing, but hey, whatever. Personally, though, this is the kind of effect I really don't want to happen more than once per game, so leave it as an artifact.
One idea I had earlier that I'm not sure if I mentioned (I don't think I did) was that the item drop rates would get better each night. I was thinking maybe a -7%C/+5%U/+1.5%R/+0.5%A chance each night. The idea is keep it so a relative percentage of the game gets the same number of noncommon items each night, so that the entire fate of the game doesn't rest with a few players. This formula works, although not perfectly. I'm a little bit worried about the late game having too few commons, especially the fifth and sixth item gens. The fact that late-game players who have little time left to use their items will get many wands and staffs this way is perfectly acceptable "FUCKING ROGUELIKES!" behavior designed to troll the playerbase.
These are numbers for you all to digest. The numbers on the left are the generation chances. The numbers on the right are the actual numbers of each item that will be generated that night. I'm assuming the mafiakill and lynch go off and nobody else dies, so there's 13 players alive when they first go for items, -2 each night.
65/25/9/1 First item, 13 players (8.45/3.25/1.17/0.13)
58/30/10.5/1.5 Second item, 11 players (5.27/3.3/1.16/0.17)
51/35/12/2 Third item, 9 players (4.59/3.15/1.08/0.18)
44/40/13.5/2.5 Fourth item, 7 players (3.08/2.8/0.95/0.18)
37/45/15/3 Fifth item, 5 players (1.85/2.25/0.75/0.15)
30/50/16.5/3.5 Sixth item, 3 players (0.90/1.5/0.5/0.1)
EDIT: Fixed a few quote fails.
Post by: webadict on February 13, 2011, 11:23:38 am
Post by: Toaster on February 14, 2011, 03:54:31 pm
Thief: Instead of questing, can choose to steal a random item from a player. The action happens at dusk and can’t be directly blocked. Can only steal scrolls, wands, and staves- if the target has none of those, the action fails.
Warrior: Kill actions have a 25% chance to bypass protections.
Mage: Using a scroll has a 50% chance to not use it up.
Bard: Starts with an uncommon instead of common.
Priest: Starts with a protect scroll in addition to a random common.
Ranger: Has a 25% chance to bypass blocks.
Merchant: When discarding an item, gets a random item one rank below in exchange. Gets nothing for discarding a common.
There had been talk on allowing selection of class, forcing randomization, or optionally choosing randomization with a bonus for selecting such. What kind of bonus would be be talking about here? An additional item? A chance for an uncommon (rare for bard) instead of common to start with? A slight power-up to the class bonus? Thoughts?
Personally, I support allowing choice with random selection giving a bonus.
Post by: Darvi on February 14, 2011, 03:55:51 pm
Post by: webadict on February 14, 2011, 05:02:54 pm
Are spoons uncommon?Trying to be a bard?
Post by: Darvi on February 14, 2011, 05:06:24 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on February 14, 2011, 06:32:07 pm
Post by: Darvi on February 14, 2011, 06:38:06 pm
Post by: webadict on February 14, 2011, 09:05:54 pm
Post by: Darvi on February 14, 2011, 09:06:27 pm
Post by: Book on February 14, 2011, 10:15:16 pm
There had been talk on allowing selection of class, forcing randomization, or optionally choosing randomization with a bonus for selecting such. What kind of bonus would be be talking about here? An additional item? A chance for an uncommon (rare for bard) instead of common to start with? A slight power-up to the class bonus? Thoughts?
Personally, I support allowing choice with random selection giving a bonus.
I also like allowing choice with a bonus given for choosing "random". I also think the class attributes are well described as they are, as long as they are chosen before alignments are rolled (otherwise scum will always choose warrior). As for the bonus for random, I like the extra common item, but alternatively, it could be at random either a) an uncommon item, or b) an upgrade of their initial item.
Post by: webadict on February 15, 2011, 08:34:39 am
Why should the scum get goosed when they pick a role? I don't really see a problem with them all picking Warrior. A 1/4 percent chance to get past a protection is pretty negligible, especially since you're not even sure if you're going to get a protection item, let alone roll the 4 it takes to get past it. All that really does is make the scum start with a disadvantage.There had been talk on allowing selection of class, forcing randomization, or optionally choosing randomization with a bonus for selecting such. What kind of bonus would be be talking about here? An additional item? A chance for an uncommon (rare for bard) instead of common to start with? A slight power-up to the class bonus? Thoughts?
Personally, I support allowing choice with random selection giving a bonus.
I also like allowing choice with a bonus given for choosing "random". I also think the class attributes are well described as they are, as long as they are chosen before alignments are rolled (otherwise scum will always choose warrior). As for the bonus for random, I like the extra common item, but alternatively, it could be at random either a) an uncommon item, or b) an upgrade of their initial item.
They should know their teammates and be able to choose, so that they are working together. Or at least know they're scum. Knowing their teammates might be a little bad.
Of course, I still think a lot of those roles besides Mage are pretty useless. Ironically, I'd boost their powers to this:
Quote
Thief: Instead of questing, can choose to steal a random item from a player. The action happens at dusk and can’t be directly blocked. Can only steal scrolls, wands, and staves- if the target has none of those, the action fails.
Warrior: Kill actions bypass protections.
Mage: Using a scroll does not use it up.
Bard: Starts with a rare instead of common.
Priest: Starts with a wand of protection in addition to a random common.
Ranger: Has a 75% chance to bypass blocks.
Merchant: When discarding an item, gets a random item one rank below in exchange. Gets nothing for discarding a common.
Of course, I'm sure everyone will think these are too powerful, but it's not fair that the Warrior gets gypped for no reason (25% on Kill actions only, while the Ranger gets 25% on any action while being blocked.) And I'm not sure about the bard, but meh. The Priest deserves a Wand of Protection though.
The Warrior is oddly specific enough so that no one BUT the scum would choose him. The Ranger might actually be a better scum pick.
Post by: Toaster on February 15, 2011, 12:07:42 pm
Thief we seem to agree on.
Warrior: Is there another effect it could do besides protection bypass? 100% bypass is too much. 25% to avoid protects or blocks on kills? 33% to avoid protections?
Alternately: Kills by you happen before the target acts. The kill would be jumped ahead in line before anything but blocks; maybe even ahead of them too.
Mage: Too strong, considering some of the rare scrolls (wishing, cloning, solar flare.) A scum mage with a kill (especially daykill) scroll would be nasty. The effect may need to be changed to uncommon or below scrolls anyway, or have the effect slanted on rariry. (60/45/30/15 or somesuch)
Bard and Priest: They'll need to be balanced against each other since they're similar. I'm not against giving the priest a wand of protection, but I'd do that instead of the random common. Which is then better: a specific good uncommon or a random uncommon? IMO, the former. The bard would need either an uncommon and common or an uncommon with a chance of a rare (75/25?)
Ranger: Too high- 33% maybe? It's useful all around.
Merchant: We seem to be together on this one too.
My only issue with letting people pick class after they know their alignment is the delay in starting the game. I could impose a 24h limit, after which they're defaulted to random.
Speaking of random, Web, what's your opinion on a bonus for letting the mod pick your class instead of picking it yourself?
I'd rather make a generic bonus than class specific ones, and nothing TOO good.
Post by: Darvi on February 15, 2011, 12:16:50 pm
Sound good maybe?
Post by: webadict on February 15, 2011, 04:33:08 pm
Thief we seem to agree on.
Warrior: Is there another effect it could do besides protection bypass? 100% bypass is too much. 25% to avoid protects or blocks on kills? 33% to avoid protections?It should either be equal to the Ranger's percentage for BOTH blocks and protection, or much higher for ONLY protection. So, either 33% chance to go through both block and protection (rolled together), or 50% for only protection.
Alternately: Kills by you happen before the target acts. The kill would be jumped ahead in line before anything but blocks; maybe even ahead of them too.Nah. That's kind of confusing. Are they immune to blocks and protection? Because that's much more powerful than I was suggesting.
Mage: Too strong, considering some of the rare scrolls (wishing, cloning, solar flare.) A scum mage with a kill (especially daykill) scroll would be nasty. The effect may need to be changed to uncommon or below scrolls anyway, or have the effect slanted on rariry. (60/45/30/15 or somesuch)Okay, okay. How about 33%? That's not too powerful, but still leaves it possible.
Bard and Priest: They'll need to be balanced against each other since they're similar. I'm not against giving the priest a wand of protection, but I'd do that instead of the random common. Which is then better: a specific good uncommon or a random uncommon? IMO, the former. The bard would need either an uncommon and common or an uncommon with a chance of a rare (75/25?)Bard with both an Uncommon and a Common would be fair, so long as the Priest gets a Wand of Protection. I think that's perfectly fair, especially for random class choosing.
Ranger: Too high- 33% maybe? It's useful all around.Fair enough.
Merchant: We seem to be together on this one too.Actually, I changed my mind. How about a 33% or 25% chance for the item to maintain the same rank?
My only issue with letting people pick class after they know their alignment is the delay in starting the game. I could impose a 24h limit, after which they're defaulted to random.I say that items are upgraded a rank if the class is chosen randomly (or mod specific). Also, if the class would receive no random item normally, they receive a common. If they would receive more than one item, I'm not sure if both should be upgrade or only a random one, though.
Speaking of random, Web, what's your opinion on a bonus for letting the mod pick your class instead of picking it yourself?
I'd rather make a generic bonus than class specific ones, and nothing TOO good.
Post by: Mephansteras on February 15, 2011, 04:35:19 pm
Priest: When dead, they can serve as a spirit advisor to a live player.
Sound good maybe?
Might be better to have Priests be Mediums who can speak with dead players. People enjoy a good dead chat, and dead players like the opportunity to make their voices heard. Having an actual ghost has been proven to be rather broken.
Post by: Darvi on February 15, 2011, 04:37:55 pm
Unless they used reverse psychology?
Post by: webadict on February 15, 2011, 04:43:27 pm
Ya. Except it would be pretty much a town-only role. I mean, if they were revealed to be scum then nobody would listen to them afterwards.Paranormal. There can be scum Medium.
Unless they used reverse psychology?
Post by: Darvi on February 15, 2011, 04:45:37 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on February 15, 2011, 04:49:04 pm
Ah, you mean they can talk with dead people. Misread your post >_>
Correct. Dead people able to talk to living ones gets broken. You can end up with an immortal confirmed town, which pretty much kills the game.
Post by: webadict on February 15, 2011, 04:50:16 pm
Scum got destroyed that game, though. :PAh, you mean they can talk with dead people. Misread your post >_>
Correct. Dead people able to talk to living ones gets broken. You can end up with an immortal confirmed town, which pretty much kills the game.
Post by: Toaster on February 15, 2011, 04:57:12 pm
Warrior: Is there another effect it could do besides protection bypass? 100% bypass is too much. 25% to avoid protects or blocks on kills? 33% to avoid protections?It should either be equal to the Ranger's percentage for BOTH blocks and protection, or much higher for ONLY protection. So, either 33% chance to go through both block and protection (rolled together), or 50% for only protection.
33% to bypass blocks and protections sounds good. Would blockers and protectors know they had been bypassed? (I guess protectors would anyway.)
Mage: Too strong, considering some of the rare scrolls (wishing, cloning, solar flare.) A scum mage with a kill (especially daykill) scroll would be nasty. The effect may need to be changed to uncommon or below scrolls anyway, or have the effect slanted on rariry. (60/45/30/15 or somesuch)Okay, okay. How about 33%? That's not too powerful, but still leaves it possible.
33% across all rarities?
Bard and Priest: They'll need to be balanced against each other since they're similar. I'm not against giving the priest a wand of protection, but I'd do that instead of the random common. Which is then better: a specific good uncommon or a random uncommon? IMO, the former. The bard would need either an uncommon and common or an uncommon with a chance of a rare (75/25?)Bard with both an Uncommon and a Common would be fair, so long as the Priest gets a Wand of Protection. I think that's perfectly fair, especially for random class choosing.
All right, then.
Merchant: We seem to be together on this one too.Actually, I changed my mind. How about a 33% or 25% chance for the item to maintain the same rank?
I was thinking this one was underpowered compared to the rest. Let's try 33% and see how it tests out.
I say that items are upgraded a rank if the class is chosen randomly (or mod specific). Also, if the class would receive no random item normally, they receive a common. If they would receive more than one item, I'm not sure if both should be upgrade or only a random one, though.
I'd say the standard starter item should upgrade. In the case of randomly getting a bard, they'd get two uncommons. Random priest... better to give them a staff instead of wand or a wand and a common? I lean toward the latter.
Priest as medium: Well, there's nothing against adding more classes- that'd be a good ability for a Necromancer or Shaman class. I'm inclined to leave that out for the first time I run this. (Yes, I intend to do it more than once if people like it. You think I'd do all this work for one game? (I might if the game was awesome enough.))
Post by: Darvi on February 15, 2011, 04:58:51 pm
Prob. just uncommon. I mean, 33% artifact would be OP.Mage: Too strong, considering some of the rare scrolls (wishing, cloning, solar flare.) A scum mage with a kill (especially daykill) scroll would be nasty. The effect may need to be changed to uncommon or below scrolls anyway, or have the effect slanted on rariry. (60/45/30/15 or somesuch)Okay, okay. How about 33%? That's not too powerful, but still leaves it possible.
33% across all rarities?
Edit: wait, wrong idea again. I think the prob of non-usage shouldn't be the same across the rarities. So yeah, Wuba's idea seems fine (may need some fine tuning)
Post by: webadict on February 15, 2011, 05:08:46 pm
No. Never give away too much information. There are things like redirection and the like that can happen, so they won't know for sure.Warrior: Is there another effect it could do besides protection bypass? 100% bypass is too much. 25% to avoid protects or blocks on kills? 33% to avoid protections?It should either be equal to the Ranger's percentage for BOTH blocks and protection, or much higher for ONLY protection. So, either 33% chance to go through both block and protection (rolled together), or 50% for only protection.
33% to bypass blocks and protections sounds good. Would blockers and protectors know they had been bypassed? (I guess protectors would anyway.)
Umm... I'd say for all rarities, but maybe it should be 33%/25%/20%/16.66% (33%/20%/14%/11%) or something that decreases with more powerful scrolls. Besides, using the scroll costs an action anyhow, so it should balance out in the end.Mage: Too strong, considering some of the rare scrolls (wishing, cloning, solar flare.) A scum mage with a kill (especially daykill) scroll would be nasty. The effect may need to be changed to uncommon or below scrolls anyway, or have the effect slanted on rariry. (60/45/30/15 or somesuch)Okay, okay. How about 33%? That's not too powerful, but still leaves it possible.
33% across all rarities?
A staff of protection isn't all that powerful. Games don't last too long, and the Wand of Protection should last the majority of the game. I think an additional Common would be better.I say that items are upgraded a rank if the class is chosen randomly (or mod specific). Also, if the class would receive no random item normally, they receive a common. If they would receive more than one item, I'm not sure if both should be upgrade or only a random one, though.
I'd say the standard starter item should upgrade. In the case of randomly getting a bard, they'd get two uncommons. Random priest... better to give them a staff instead of wand or a wand and a common? I lean toward the latter.
Priest as medium: Well, there's nothing against adding more classes- that'd be a good ability for a Necromancer or Shaman class. I'm inclined to leave that out for the first time I run this. (Yes, I intend to do it more than once if people like it. You think I'd do all this work for one game? (I might if the game was awesome enough.))Sweet.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 15, 2011, 06:11:31 pm
Post by: JanusTwoface on February 15, 2011, 06:14:47 pm
I don't think the Ghost role would be too bad if it lost the ability to pm, actually. The problem with the version that came before was that everyone could pm their roles to the ghost and the ghost could organize everything.... really? Why could the Ghost be PMed? That actually sounds like a problem with having private communication than just a Ghost.
I think a 'Spirit Mentor' would work. They choose one person to attach to and that's the only person they can talk with (in either direction, use a QuickTopic). Once the person they attached to is dead, the Spirit Mentor is done as well.
Post by: Darvi on February 15, 2011, 06:16:11 pm
SCR :x
Post by: webadict on February 15, 2011, 06:25:47 pm
It's not that great of an ability, really. It doesn't help out in game mechanics. Only in that you are able to commune with a player that may or may not be Town.I don't think the Ghost role would be too bad if it lost the ability to pm, actually. The problem with the version that came before was that everyone could pm their roles to the ghost and the ghost could organize everything.... really? Why could the Ghost be PMed? That actually sounds like a problem with having private communication than just a Ghost.
I think a 'Spirit Mentor' would work. They choose one person to attach to and that's the only person they can talk with (in either direction, use a QuickTopic). Once the person they attached to is dead, the Spirit Mentor is done as well.
Post by: Darvi on February 15, 2011, 06:27:12 pm
Post by: JanusTwoface on February 15, 2011, 06:27:38 pm
It's not that great of an ability, really. It doesn't help out in game mechanics. Only in that you are able to commune with a player that may or may not be Town.Completely true, but it does give players something to do after dying. It's not perfect, but it is something.
Post by: webadict on February 15, 2011, 06:31:57 pm
Doesn't even have to be powerful. Sometimes you just don't get the good things, and that's fine, 'cause it's better than just being vanilla town.Right, but if you've got a choice of 6 other classes that are not vanilla, why would you want one that is except for dead commune?
I myself would like deadchat in my games, but I have problems with things like revivals and fake deaths and... lots of things, really.
Post by: Darvi on February 15, 2011, 06:33:16 pm
I myself would like deadchat in my games, but I have problems with things like revivals and fake deaths and... lots of things, really.Ya that kinda doesn't help. Next day just repeats the lynch or the NK.
Post by: webadict on February 15, 2011, 06:37:47 pm
Ya well if the roles are random then of course you don't get a choice. If you get to pick the roles then of course you're right.You've never read a BYOR, have you? Read 4 for a nice read.I myself would like deadchat in my games, but I have problems with things like revivals and fake deaths and... lots of things, really.Ya that kinda doesn't help. Next day just repeats the lynch or the NK.
Post by: Darvi on February 15, 2011, 06:38:52 pm
*archive binge*
Post by: JanusTwoface on February 15, 2011, 06:39:57 pm
Reading the current one and skimmed the previous one.They are amusing, but don't read to much into strategy from them. Things tend to devolve into role-related madness pretty quickly. Particularly in the larger ones.
*archive binge*
Post by: Darvi on February 15, 2011, 06:41:58 pm
Post by: webadict on February 15, 2011, 06:46:38 pm
I can cope with madness. I mean how else could I live with myself >: D1 had a good set where there were a couple cool ideas.
2 is where I decided to throw in some extra things.
3 is where I decided to make things play off of each other and screw over some players.
4 is where I decided things were better with more abilities.
5 is where I decided that things could be extra fun. It also broke.
5.5 is where I decided to put together a bunch of overpowered roles and see how it worked.
Post by: Darvi on February 15, 2011, 06:49:09 pm
Post by: JanusTwoface on February 15, 2011, 06:50:41 pm
Post by: webadict on February 15, 2011, 06:51:51 pm
Which game was the "Kill webaddict" one? >:3KWN and KWN: Dakarian Edition
I have a version ready to play, but I am going to not run it until I start hating BYORs again.
There was a Kill Webadict Now (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=43695.msg826277#msg826277) mafia, but that wasn't a BYOR. Amusing reading though.I was going to win, too!
Post by: Mephansteras on February 15, 2011, 06:55:58 pm
I don't think the Ghost role would be too bad if it lost the ability to pm, actually. The problem with the version that came before was that everyone could pm their roles to the ghost and the ghost could organize everything.... really? Why could the Ghost be PMed? That actually sounds like a problem with having private communication than just a Ghost.
I think a 'Spirit Mentor' would work. They choose one person to attach to and that's the only person they can talk with (in either direction, use a QuickTopic). Once the person they attached to is dead, the Spirit Mentor is done as well.
It was Paranormal, so PMs were free. Restricting the Ghost from PMing was discussed, but ultimately we decided it was better to just scrap the role. The reasoning is lurking somewhere in the Paranormal rules thread.
I thought about the Spirit Mentor, but it sounds a bit too weak to be fun.
Hmmm. A 1-shot power to PM any living player after death could be interesting, though. Still weak, but it could be that tipping point during LYLO or whatnot, and it doesn't become useless if the guy you get attached to dies the next day.
Post by: JanusTwoface on February 15, 2011, 06:59:56 pm
If they can't PM the Ghost (because they don't know how to talk to the dead), that eliminates most of the problems with being a confirmed townie.
I think the Medium role was a good replacement for that though. Makes being dead more interesting at least.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 15, 2011, 07:00:56 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on February 15, 2011, 07:13:44 pm
That was actually part of my role in Second Chance Mafia. Didn't really come into play though because the scum were killed so quickly.Eh? I don't remember that.
Anyways, I should rebalance it, learn to mod, then run another one. That, or get someone better to run it. My favorite role was probably the Protective Lyncher: You start as a lyncher and revive if your target is still alive, in which case your goal becomes keeping the target alive.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 15, 2011, 07:16:08 pm
Post by: Toaster on February 15, 2011, 11:57:44 pm
Mage: I'd probably do 33% all but exclude artifact scrolls, keeping the rule simple. Yes, it's strong on rares, but it's pretty unlikely to happen that you get an rare scroll in the first place.
(Honestly, the only artifact scroll isn't that strong either, but that doesn't mean that more won't come along.)
Priest: Noted. I think I'll make that official.
Medium style role- I'll probably make it a class and the effect the same as Medium from Paranormal. Anything else is either underpowered or broken.
Next thing I'll do is get the rules together and put it here for review. Any other suggestions?
Post by: Mr.Person on February 16, 2011, 02:10:55 am
Scroll of Genocide: Choose a class. All players with that class die.
Post by: Book on February 16, 2011, 03:39:49 am
Post by: webadict on February 16, 2011, 07:58:51 am
Web: Noted on the protection/block bypass. So say PlayerA blocks WarriorB who is killing PlayerC. WarriorB rolls to bypass and kills PlayerC anyway. Tell PlayerA that his block was successful? That'd make some interesting scenarios. I suppose as long as it's known that it's possible, it's fine.That's what I do. I just note that their protection action didn't fail. It may not target correctly or work, but it didn't get blocked, disabled, or fail to action. Usually.
Mage: I'd probably do 33% all but exclude artifact scrolls, keeping the rule simple. Yes, it's strong on rares, but it's pretty unlikely to happen that you get an rare scroll in the first place.33%/22%/11%/0%?
Medium style role- I'll probably make it a class and the effect the same as Medium from Paranormal. Anything else is either underpowered or broken.I don't think that's too great of a class, unless you allows inspects before kills.
You want another artifact scroll? Fine, here ya go.... SUH-WEET.
Scroll of Genocide: Choose a class. All players with that class die.
Post by: Toaster on February 16, 2011, 08:47:38 am
You want another artifact scroll? Fine, here ya go.
Scroll of Genocide: Choose a class. All players with that class die.
Oh yeah, that's in.
Web: I do inspects before kills, because I've always liked these messages: "You go to inspect ScummyA. You deduce that he is mafia because he shoots you in the face. You die."
Post by: webadict on February 16, 2011, 09:14:09 am
Web: I do inspects before kills, because I've always liked these messages: "You go to inspect ScummyA. You deduce that he is mafia because he shoots you in the face. You die."Not good either. You can't say that unless they get the same message from being redirected.
Post by: Toaster on February 16, 2011, 09:39:52 am
Post by: webadict on February 16, 2011, 09:42:59 am
Not sure what you mean there- could you elaborate? Are you saying it should instead say: "Your investigation reveals the target is mafia! Also, you die."Well, I always say, "Inspection successful. Target is mafia."
Then you can always add, "You die."
But, then again, I'm against individual flavor.
Post by: Toaster on February 16, 2011, 09:55:08 am
You wave the wand of inspection and think hard of your target. A sigil of evil appears in front of you- a sign of the Mafia!
As you study the sigil, you are hit over the head from behind. You black out, and do not awake...
You have died.
Basically keep info to a minimum.
Post by: Darvi on February 16, 2011, 10:59:33 am
You want another artifact scroll? Fine, here ya go.Bastard mod: Everybody's the same class, and everybody gets one of those *g*
Scroll of Genocide: Choose a class. All players with that class die.
Post by: Toaster on February 16, 2011, 11:17:50 am
(Artifact- all your kills bypass protection)
Post by: Mr.Person on February 16, 2011, 11:05:52 pm
Post by: Toaster on February 16, 2011, 11:19:40 pm
Post by: Book on February 16, 2011, 11:42:06 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on February 16, 2011, 11:45:33 pm
There's the ?oGenocide now...
That's a common item. Also, we really should have a sword artifact.
Does the weapon (whatever we decide to call it) actually let you kill? I say it should let you do that since if it's just the kill-immunity-resistance, it's a touch weak.
Post by: Book on February 16, 2011, 11:49:22 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on February 16, 2011, 11:51:50 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on February 16, 2011, 11:56:23 pm
Post by: Toaster on February 17, 2011, 12:07:37 am
Post by: Mr.Person on February 17, 2011, 12:31:35 am
Post by: Book on February 17, 2011, 04:42:31 am
“Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the [target name], and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”
[Player] took his Vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
One, two! One, two! and through and through
The Vorpal Blade went snicker-snack!
He left [target name] dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
[Player] has beheaded [target name]!
Post by: Book on February 17, 2011, 04:52:04 am
Excalibur:
So it doesn't give you a kill, but a lynch, and you'll have to live with the consequences...
In nethack, it's restricted to Lawful types, so it would be tempting to say only Town could get it, but I don't know how to do that without making a confirmed townie, so that's not such a cool idea. It seems abhorrent to imagine a scum wielding Excalibur, though... oh well, balance is not my strong point, but I think it has cool possibilities.
[1]: Correction, Excalibur does not grant hallucination resistance; that's Grayswandir, which is especially good against undead and werewolves/silver-hating stuff. But we don't have undead, do we?
Post by: Tyberix on February 17, 2011, 07:26:03 am
Also why i have the feeling that your Excalibur description should be : "...,but then the Lady of the Lake comes and gets you for it!"
Few my propositions for DF references :
Pure Adamantine Nugget : So shiny! It feels your heart with joy just looking at it,you're immune to redirects and roleblocks. But you know you can't get too greedy,if you hold this item for two nights in row,something bad could happen to you...
Blank Dwarven Mandate : You feel sudden urge that some items are pure evil! You must do something!
Select type of an item : Scroll,Wand,Staff,Ring - Usage of these items is restricted following night.
I'm new to mafia business so probably these are bit unbalanced but this rougelike sounds so good i couldn't resist ;p
Post by: webadict on February 17, 2011, 07:52:22 am
Pure Adamantine Nugget : So shiny! It feels your heart with joy just looking at it,you're immune to redirects and roleblocks. But you know you can't get too greedy,if you hold this item for two nights in row,something bad could happen to you...Depends on what the bad things are. I actually don't see this as overpowered WITHOUT the bad things.
Blank Dwarven Mandate : You feel sudden urge that some items are pure evil! You must do something!This could be extended to many things: Only usage of that type, total destruction of that type, only questing for that type, taking all of that type from a payer (Or all players?!?). In fact, I'd love too see everyone lose all their scrolls and all be given to one player. It'd make me laugh.
Select type of an item : Scroll,Wand,Staff,Ring - Usage of these items is restricted following night.
Post by: Book on February 17, 2011, 02:06:48 pm
Why not merge two swords into one that grants different powers depending on alignment?
Because then you can deduce the player's alignment based on the powers the artefact displays. You wouldn't use it if it outed you as a scum, and the mod wouldn't give it to someone who would become a confirmed townie by using it... No, as weird as it seems, I'd rather think that the scum managed to trick the Lady of the Lake into thinking he was legit, or that he was actually Mordred and looted it from Arthur's corpse, or something.
Maybe give it a special (not generally visible) malus if it's wielded by scum? Say scum can get Excalibur, with the same effects, but in addition it negates any protection bestowed on them as punishment for wielding a Lawful artefact?
Post by: Mr.Person on February 17, 2011, 05:07:47 pm
Makes you kill immune and your kills bypass resistance and protections. After the second night you own this artifact, a random player with your alignment gets killed each night. This kill bypasses resistance but can be protected against. (This kill is very specific: Foo, killed by demons.)
Grayswandir: Grants you a double kill. (Grayswandir deals double damage to everything. That's not even getting into silver damage, which is likely to double your damage over, or the fact most people using Grayswandir duel-wield it with another silver saber, effectively doubling damage over again.)
Just a quick note, in Crawl there's a regular brand for cloaks called "of darkness". In Crawl you can activate it to become invisible temporarily, but it fails a lot and gives you magic contamination which causes glowing. So I'd make it an (x) activatable that gives you a 50% chance of being untargetable and lynch resistant for night/day you activate it on, but the next night and day you glow, making you targetable and lynchable if you would otherwise be untargetable or unlynchable for whatever reason. If the items fails, you don't glow. That seems alright in power for a rare, although maybe it should be a touch weaker. The chance for success could be lower, for instance. I'd also like to simplify since even for a rare this is pretty complex, but I can't think of any way to do that. So it might be best to just not add this at all. It's borderline unfun for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that nobody likes random chance all that much. It's also not fun to learn that your opponent "got lucky" to avoid the kill or lynch. So I dunno, I need another opinion on this. There's also the existing "cloak of shadows" that would have to be dealt with since they've got similar names. Is it even worth it?
I've got the perfect rename for "wand of jailing". Call it "Wand of Door Creation", a wand from IVAN. Does what it says on the tin, surrounds what you zap with doors. Mithril doors. Many of them locked. I think that qualifies as rolebock and protection, yes?
Do you guys think we should start a quicktopic or something to discuss this on so other games and whatnot can have some facetime as well? I love suggesting new items but there's a point where it gets too much.
Whoever's taking care of the Google doc (Toaster?), it might be cool if everything on there also listed the source of the item somewhere to help identify which items could do with renames. I'm a bit of a stickler that everything actually come from somewhere. Does anybody else care? I doubt it, but I'd gladly do a lot of the legwork here if you want. We might learn if we're leaning too heavily on one roguelike or whatever and not representing another very much. I don't think Angband is represented at all, for instance. I'd specifically like to see some more D&D stuff in there besides one artifact, although with my luck a bunch of stuff in there is from D&D since I wouldn't know one way or the other.
Post by: webadict on February 17, 2011, 05:55:01 pm
That's kinda from Angband
Post by: Darvi on February 17, 2011, 05:56:35 pm
Ring of Speed - Perform two actions this Night.But two different ones then. Two kills would be kinda overpowered.
That's kinda from Angband
Post by: Book on February 17, 2011, 05:57:13 pm
@Pure Adamatium Nugget: Here's my version. [...] (This kill is very specific: Foo, killed by demons.)I like this. By the way, did we address item trading/sharing? Can I give or exchange a duplicate item via PM? If so, then the risk with this Nugget is that the scum pass it around every night.
Grayswandir: Grants you a double kill.I'm of two minds on this one. Grayswandir is not that famous/cool an artefact outside of nethack (which may be overrepresented, as you say) or its source book. But if it's in, I'd say it's a re-kill type of double kill (bypassing protections/guardians and the like, like for a paranormal tough dopp), rather than two kills on the same night.
in Crawl there's a regular brand for cloaks called "of darkness".[...]Is it even worth it?Seems too cumbersome. I'd vote against it.
I've got the perfect rename for "wand of jailing". Call it "Wand of Door Creation", a wand from IVAN. Does what it says on the tin, surrounds what you zap with doors. Mithril doors. Many of them locked. I think that qualifies as rolebock and protection, yes?Yes, it sounds cool. I still like "paralysis" better, but I'm biased towards nethack, so I'm fine going IVAN for this one.
Do you guys think we should start a quicktopic or something to discuss this on so other games and whatnot can have some facetime as well? I love suggesting new items but there's a point where it gets too much.Nah, Toaster seems to be pretty much ready to go with what he has, it shouldn't take much more hashing until he's ready to host the first game. If it is successful then yes, I'd say he opens a "Roguelike rules thread" akin to the Paranormal/Supernatural one. But during/after the first game would be the right time for that, I'd say.
PPE: Ring of speed is cool, but I think it's already in as an uncommon scroll/potion; would a ring be permanent? Then it'd be very powerful, a rare or artefact.
Post by: webadict on February 17, 2011, 06:07:49 pm
And I always assumed only one mafiakill could happen anyway.
Post by: Darvi on February 17, 2011, 06:09:56 pm
And yeah, rarity would balance the rest out.
Post by: Book on February 17, 2011, 06:20:27 pm
Do you guys think we should start a quicktopic or something to discuss this on so other games and whatnot can have some facetime as well? I love suggesting new items but there's a point where it gets too much.Nah, Toaster seems to be pretty much ready to go with what he has, it shouldn't take much more hashing until he's ready to host the first game. If it is successful then yes, I'd say he opens a "Roguelike rules thread" akin to the Paranormal/Supernatural one. But during/after the first game would be the right time for that, I'd say.
To clarify, I think the ideal time to open the dedicated thread would be when he opens the game for signups. The discussion thread would include the first official version of the rules, item list and so on, plus discussion for clarifications or changes, while the game thread is for sign ups and the game proper.
Post by: Mr.Person on February 17, 2011, 07:29:31 pm
@Pure Adamatium Nugget: Here's my version. [...] (This kill is very specific: Foo, killed by demons.)I like this. By the way, did we address item trading/sharing? Can I give or exchange a duplicate item via PM? If so, then the risk with this Nugget is that the scum pass it around every night.
Forgot about that. We could change it so that 2 nights after anybody holds it, whoever carries it starts summoning demons that kill that player's team, even if they themselves just got the item moments before. That would suck for whichever poor sap picks the thing off the ground... or worse, steals it from the scumteam!
Grayswandir: Grants you a double kill.I'm of two minds on this one. Grayswandir is not that famous/cool an artefact outside of nethack (which may be overrepresented, as you say) or its source book. But if it's in, I'd say it's a re-kill type of double kill (bypassing protections/guardians and the like, like for a paranormal tough dopp), rather than two kills on the same night.
Eh, that's not something I care about. That's up to Toaster. I would argue that two artifact swords from Nethack is appropriate, but yes, more than that is a bit much. If we do want a third Nethack artifact, I think we should pick a quest artifact. On the other hand, a SLASH'EM artifact would be fantastic.
Of course I meant the re-kill type, what kind of fool do you take me for? I could only imagine a scum doublekiller walking around and how much rage that would cause.
in Crawl there's a regular brand for cloaks called "of darkness".[...]Is it even worth it?Seems too cumbersome. I'd vote against it.
I really wanted to get the "of darkness" information out there, but yes, I agree that's too cumbersome. I'm just occasionally surprised by what everyone else likes, so I figured I'd throw it out just the same.
I've got the perfect rename for "wand of jailing". Call it "Wand of Door Creation", a wand from IVAN. Does what it says on the tin, surrounds what you zap with doors. Mithril doors. Many of them locked. I think that qualifies as rolebock and protection, yes?Yes, it sounds cool. I still like "paralysis" better, but I'm biased towards nethack, so I'm fine going IVAN for this one.
Not sure how paralysis would protect someone, although weren't we bickering about "flesh to stone" vs "petrification" before? I think door creation solves the problem quite nicely.
PPE: Ring of speed is cool, but I think it's already in as an uncommon scroll/potion; would a ring be permanent? Then it'd be very powerful, a rare or artefact.
Too powerful even as an artifact. I'd accept Speed Boots as an uncommon if it was "your action goes before all other actions", but a straight double action item with no drawback is too good. And a certain artifact already does that with drawbacks.
Post by: webadict on February 17, 2011, 08:26:56 pm
Too powerful even as an artifact. I'd accept Speed Boots as an uncommon if it was "your action goes before all other actions", but a straight double action item with no drawback is too good. And a certain artifact already does that with drawbacks.I have no clue, I'm not looking at the items. I'm mostly posting from a phone.
I don't see double action as powerful, as the WORST you could do is the mafiakill and an item kill. But, then I could argue that there shouldn't be that many killing items to begin with.
Post by: Mr.Person on February 17, 2011, 09:01:30 pm
The only situation where you wouldn't spam through your items ASAP is if you have a roleblock or protect wand or staff that you want to use on one player over several nights. I'm also fine with artifacts being worse than rare items in practice, I just would like to avoid artifacts being worse on paper, if that makes any sense. I still think Speed Boots would be a bad addition as a double-action granter, but that's more from a game-enhancement PoV rather than a balance PoV.
Post by: Toaster on February 17, 2011, 11:18:00 pm
Maybe give it a special (not generally visible) malus if it's wielded by scum? Say scum can get Excalibur, with the same effects, but in addition it negates any protection bestowed on them as punishment for wielding a Lawful artefact?
I like the idea of an invisible penalty for scum for any such item that be much stronger in the hands of scum- it's an attempt at balance at a game that largely lacks it.
Person: Re Google Doc, yes, that's mine. Does everything have to have a source? I came up with that first list of items mostly out of my head, so they're largely unsourced. Many effects could come from many- I just tried to come up with items that would fit in a mafia game themed around roguelikes.
In any case, it's a toss up to whom to credit Vorpal Blade, since I'm pretty sure D&D beat Nethack. (At stealing it from
Ring of Speed: We already have Boots of Blinding Speed that gives two actions at the cost of randomizing their targets. I'd think two actions as a permanent is too strong.
Pure Light Blue Nugget: I'd rather wait until we start doing third parties for that one. (First game will be third party free. After that, all bets are off.)
Separate Thread: Unless there's call to do it now, I'll start one after the first game if there's interest in another.
Artifacts: Go ahead and give draft versions of them, and we can look at them case by case.
Hm. The Golden Cornucopia- why not rename it Kal Berim? You can get lots of items from an artifact cabinet, and that covers DF.
Post by: webadict on February 17, 2011, 11:24:30 pm
Post by: Toaster on February 17, 2011, 11:33:08 pm
Post by: Book on February 17, 2011, 11:45:02 pm
On Elephant Tusk/Vorpal Blade: I guess Vorpal Blade is better. I'll rename it as such assuming it doesn't get remade as a different effect.Is it in as a public daykill?
Is Excalibur then in as a King for a Day thing? Cool!Maybe give it a special (not generally visible) malus if it's wielded by scum? Say scum can get Excalibur, with the same effects, but in addition it negates any protection bestowed on them as punishment for wielding a Lawful artefact?I like the idea of an invisible penalty for scum for any such item that be much stronger in the hands of scum- it's an attempt at balance at a game that largely lacks it.
In any case, it's a toss up to whom to credit Vorpal Blade, since I'm pretty sure D&D beat Nethack. (At stealing it from C. S. Lewis, at least.)Ahem.
Post by: Toaster on February 17, 2011, 11:49:17 pm
Lemme sleep on those- my rational thinking ability is dropping.
Post by: Toaster on February 18, 2011, 04:12:20 pm
What if someone gets redirected twice? I think a specific redirection should take priority over a randomized target. If someone is specifically redirected more than once, what would be a better way to decide priority besides random.org?
1. If A blocks B and B redirects A to C, is B or C blocked?
2. If A redirects B to C, and B redirects A to C, what happens?
3. If A redirects B to C, and B redirects D to E, what happens?
Ans:
1. I'd give highest priority to redirects, I think. That would mean C is blocked.
2. I think that'd be a mutual block/failure.
3. I think the rule here should be to maximize redirection. The end result would be that B gets redirected to C, meaning B forces C to target E.
Post by: Toaster on February 18, 2011, 04:43:27 pm
1. When the game goes into setup, I will lock the thread and send out your alignment. Please reply to that with your selection of class from the list below. If you do not reply in 24 hours, it will default to random.
2. At game start, you will receive a random common item, unless your class dictates otherwise.
3. There is a pool of public items. This pool starts out containing four random items, at least one of which is guaranteed to be uncommon or better. When a player dies, their items will go into this pool. The contents of this pool are not known.
4. During the day, you will automatically quest for an item, and you will receive it at the end of the day after the lynch. You may PM me during the day and opt to grab an item from the public item pool instead.
5. The odds for receiving an item are as follows: 65% common, 25% uncommon, 9% rare, 1% artifact. Rarer items tend to have a greater effect.
6. You may discard one item each night if you wish. This effect happens at the end of the night and does not count as your night action. The item goes into the public pool.
7. Once you have three items in your possession, it becomes harder to get more. The odds of questing/checking the public pool of giving you an item past three are 2/N%, where N is the number of items you have.
Notes:
I'm sure I missed some things. Please let me know what they are.
I'll put a list of classes below this and a link to the item list.
I had forgotten about the diminishing returns item limit, which I like better than a hard limit. It still allows for a bag of holding, which I'll go add.
Post by: Darvi on February 18, 2011, 04:44:46 pm
7. Once you have three items in your possession, it becomes harder to get more. The odds of questing/checking the public pool of giving you an item past three are 2/N%, where N is the number of items you have.Does that include Items you've already used?
Post by: Toaster on February 18, 2011, 04:46:47 pm
Post by: Darvi on February 18, 2011, 04:50:59 pm
Like, you've used 2 items, but still have 2 left. Do you have max. chance to get a new item, or do you have 0.5% chance?
Post by: Book on February 18, 2011, 06:29:55 pm
1. When the game goes into setup, I will lock the thread and send out your alignment. Please reply to that with your selection of class from the list below. If you do not reply in 24 hours, it will default to random.I still like better the idea of choosing class first, and then alignments be rolled at random. Just like in a BYOR, you send your role first. It would also allow people to say right during sign ups: "in, random class," or "in, class sent", defaulting people to random for anyone who didn't send one once signups complete. This saves you some waiting time. Also, you should include the perks for choosing random.
5. The odds for receiving an item are as follows: 65% common, 25% uncommon, 9% rare, 1% artifact. Rarer items tend to have a greater effect.You ran some simulations earlier on the thread, can you run a couple more to discuss? It now seems to me that with ten players, there's a 10% chance of an artefact, and almost certainty of a rare, being generated each night, which sounds a bit high. I'd think there shouldn't be more than one or two artefacts per entire game. People who know about balance may want to weigh in on this.
7. Once you have three items in your possession, it becomes harder to get more. The odds of questing/checking the public pool of giving you an item past three are 2/N%, where N is the number of items you have.This sounds good, but a) the hoarder in me would maybe like it a bit higher, like four free, then 3/N after that, but I'm OK either way; b) how would a bag of holding affect this? suggestion: double your chances to get something after the diminishing returns effect kicks in (or maybe just 1.5 chances).
Post by: webadict on February 19, 2011, 12:09:17 am
Right, but I don't make actions first. I make alignments first, and then I make actions. This is the opposite way, and so should be in the opposite style. It's better they know alignment first.1. When the game goes into setup, I will lock the thread and send out your alignment. Please reply to that with your selection of class from the list below. If you do not reply in 24 hours, it will default to random.I still like better the idea of choosing class first, and then alignments be rolled at random. Just like in a BYOR, you send your role first. It would also allow people to say right during sign ups: "in, random class," or "in, class sent", defaulting people to random for anyone who didn't send one once signups complete. This saves you some waiting time. Also, you should include the perks for choosing random.
Post by: Toaster on February 22, 2011, 10:14:01 am
I still like better the idea of choosing class first, and then alignments be rolled at random. Just like in a BYOR, you send your role first. It would also allow people to say right during sign ups: "in, random class," or "in, class sent", defaulting people to random for anyone who didn't send one once signups complete. This saves you some waiting time. Also, you should include the perks for choosing random.
I want to see how it runs with players picking when they know their alignment for the first game. After that, we'll see. Also, Random will be an entry on the class list, reading like this:
Random: Your class will be chosen randomly, or at the mod's discretion for balance. As a bonus, your random starter item will be upgraded a rarity level. If your class does not have a random starter item, you will get a random common.
5. The odds for receiving an item are as follows: 65% common, 25% uncommon, 9% rare, 1% artifact. Rarer items tend to have a greater effect.You ran some simulations earlier on the thread, can you run a couple more to discuss? It now seems to me that with ten players, there's a 10% chance of an artefact, and almost certainty of a rare, being generated each night, which sounds a bit high. I'd think there shouldn't be more than one or two artefacts per entire game. People who know about balance may want to weigh in on this.
Good idea. One point- ten 10% chances is actually ~65% chance of happening, not 100%.
Spoiler: Math alert (click to show/hide)
Assuming a 13 player game with no kills and protections, you'd have 12 items the first night (after a lynch), then 10, 8, 6, 4. (2 wouldn't happen as that'd be game over.) So assuming 40 item generations:
Odds of at least one artifact: ~33%
Odds of at least one rare: ~98%
Expected item ratio: 26/10/3.6/0.4
A couple samples (no names this time):
Spoiler: Test 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Test 2 (click to show/hide)
Statistically, the expected ratio is better for balancing than the test ones, but they're interesting to see.
7. Once you have three items in your possession, it becomes harder to get more. The odds of questing/checking the public pool of giving you an item past three are 2/N%, where N is the number of items you have.This sounds good, but a) the hoarder in me would maybe like it a bit higher, like four free, then 3/N after that, but I'm OK either way; b) how would a bag of holding affect this? suggestion: double your chances to get something after the diminishing returns effect kicks in (or maybe just 1.5 chances).
Currently, the bag of holding (rare) removes the limit.
Post by: webadict on February 25, 2011, 05:34:55 pm
Basically, you have a hand of cards with abilities, or special abilities that you can play at certain times. And stuff. It's basically like a bunch of random powers and possible rule changing things.
Meh?
Post by: Darvi on February 25, 2011, 05:38:52 pm
Anyways, Bastard Mafia Lite.
Basically, it's mafia with some minor rule changes. No complex roles like in BYOR (only regular roles), votes always count, etc. Only some basic changes, which I can't elaborate on since it would spoil the bastardy-ness.
Intended for people who have completed at least one BM, know how to play mafia, but don't have any experience with Bastard mods and the like.
Discuss.
Post by: webadict on February 25, 2011, 05:42:04 pm
I can has the world? :3 (http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/The_World_Arcana)I'm confused... I mean... What is this?
Post by: Mephansteras on February 25, 2011, 05:43:43 pm
I'll have to hold onto that. But I will use it at some point.
Post by: Darvi on February 25, 2011, 05:44:18 pm
Za Warudo gives you the ability to win the game for your team, but it costs your life. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrGP9ssc_TE)I can has the world? :3 (http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/The_World_Arcana)I'm confused... I mean... What is this?
Post by: webadict on February 25, 2011, 06:06:55 pm
Right, but that would be a win in this game, so no.Za Warudo gives you the ability to win the game for your team, but it costs your life. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrGP9ssc_TE)I can has the world? :3 (http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/The_World_Arcana)I'm confused... I mean... What is this?
I have... ideas for this game.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 03, 2011, 02:01:33 pm
There are 9 players, one is a god.
The god knows they are a god, nobody else does.
The god acts like normal mafia, but there is only one of him, and he has 10 special powers he can use each night.
The god does not know what the powers do, but he gets a list of possible powers, which each do different things, for example:
Smite: Kills target.
Holy Guarding: Protects target from lynch.
Curse: Target takes one less vote to be lynched.
Bless: Target's vote counts as two (Target does not know they were targeted by this)
Ordinate/Convert*: Turns townie into a demigod, who wins with the god and gets 2-3 powers, they know they were targeted.
Insult/Make heretic*: Turns target into a cultist leader, who acts like the normal cult in other games, they can convert others.
Make sacrifice: Target must choose a player to be NK'd
Make likeable*: Target becomes a "beloved princess", day is skipped on her death, person who did the final vote on them is killed.
Make unlucky*: Target is lynched if they have a vote on them, instead of other players.
Madden*: Turns target into a Serial Killer.
Any thoughts?
*= Permanent, all others last only one day.
Post by: Toaster on March 03, 2011, 02:06:05 pm
Would the god be able to pick from the names of the powers, or just "Who do you want to target with a random power tonight?"
Would the god know what the power did after it was done?
Post by: Ottofar on March 03, 2011, 02:37:38 pm
Post by: Supercharazad on March 03, 2011, 03:06:38 pm
Would the cult win with the god?
No, heretics win if both god AND town are dead.
Does the god have a nightkill?
Would the god be able to pick from the names of the powers, or just "Who do you want to target with a random power tonight?"
Would the god know what the power did after it was done?
1: No, but his demigod (if he gets one) can.
2: the god chooses a number from 1-10, the list is randomised each time, so the god chooses a target and a number, and the power assigned to said number is used.
3: Only for kill and ordinate.
Post by: Darvi on March 03, 2011, 03:16:33 pm
- Clue mafia. Day phase is pretty much vanilla mafia, but during the night you'll have to investigate the murder weapon and the scene of crime. ("Book, in the library, with the lead pipe.") Getting one of those wrong results in a no-lynch, and everybody gets a PM whether their proposed weapon or the SoC was wrong. ("You examine the lead pipe, and you find no indication of it having been used as the murder weapon")
- Bring somebody else's role. Pretty much self-explanatory.
- Webadict must survive! Wuba is a jester, and the others win when he lives at the end.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 03, 2011, 03:32:59 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on March 03, 2011, 03:37:12 pm
At the very least, start writing the flavor.
Post by: Toaster on March 03, 2011, 03:41:32 pm
I'd at least watch it. Let a couple people better at balancing than me look over it, then go for it- not much else in signups now.
Cult is iffy. What happens if they try to recruit the god? Does the cult all die if the head dies?
Darvi:
1: Seems like the town could pool information to figure it out quickly.
2: Org put it up and filled the game, but it never started. Could always try again.
3: Needs more details. Is there a mafia? Is the requirement everyone dies but him for town to win?
Post by: Toaster on March 03, 2011, 03:43:56 pm
If the cult is too much, replace it with a lyncher fixed to a townie whose win is separate from town or god.
Post by: Darvi on March 03, 2011, 03:45:20 pm
2) Ya, why not
3) It's like KWN, 'cept not. And a previous Wuba loses if Wuba survives, so there's at least some incentive to get him lynched.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 03, 2011, 03:56:21 pm
Also to Super: What is the god's wincon? What happens when the game reaches just the god and a townie?
If the cult is too much, replace it with a lyncher fixed to a townie whose win is separate from town or god.
The god needs to get the townie/heretic number down to 1, or 2 if the god gets a demigod.
Basically, the god has mafia win conditions.
Post by: Argembarger on March 03, 2011, 04:09:34 pm
Post by: Darvi on March 03, 2011, 04:12:30 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 03, 2011, 04:18:03 pm
Post by: Supercharazad on March 03, 2011, 04:22:43 pm
Super: Are the abilities reusable?
No. If the game SOMEHOW goes on for more than 10 days, I'll think of more powers.
Post by: Mr.Person on March 03, 2011, 04:23:29 pm
You know what might be cool? Tweaking it so it's two gods facing off, manipulating a population at their whims
If you did that, make the rest of the game survivors and tweak a lot of the abilities to be conversion-type stuff. Course now we're talking an entirely different kind of game, so save all that for another day.
One general thing: giving protection to another player is both boring and weak. Considering that most kills are going to come from the god either directly or indirectly, it won't matter unless the god happens to pick a player an earlier serial killer also chose. I'd make it a roleblock+protection at the very least to help make it less situational.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 03, 2011, 04:31:06 pm
You know what might be cool? Tweaking it so it's two gods facing off, manipulating a population at their whims
If you did that, make the rest of the game survivors and tweak a lot of the abilities to be conversion-type stuff. Course now we're talking an entirely different kind of game, so save all that for another day.
One general thing: giving protection to another player is both boring and weak. Considering that most kills are going to come from the god either directly or indirectly, it won't matter unless the god happens to pick a player an earlier serial killer also chose. I'd make it a roleblock+protection at the very least to help make it less situational.
Considering that if the god wanted to protect someone (which they don't!), they'd be just as likely to kill the person.
The powers are random, the god just picks a player to target, and a random power is applied.
Post by: Jack A T on March 17, 2011, 01:10:17 am
Post by: Vector on March 17, 2011, 01:17:04 am
Post by: Heliman on March 17, 2011, 01:24:53 am
I'm not experienced at all at mafia, but what about "Anonafia?"
It would run essentially as a vanilla Game, but you have no idea what the other player's names are, because everyone uses numbered accounts supplied by the Mod (I.E. player1, player2, player3, etc.)
The actual player's names would be listed in the beginning, but they would be given their numbered names in secret.
You could make a good game component out of having players guess the names of others to gain their voting rights, at the risk of losing their own.
Post by: Mr.Person on March 17, 2011, 01:32:47 am
Post by: Toaster on March 17, 2011, 08:04:23 am
Post by: Leafsnail on March 17, 2011, 11:09:19 am
Post by: Toaster on March 17, 2011, 12:10:45 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on March 17, 2011, 09:30:21 pm
Not to mention posting styles, spelling, grammar, sentence structure, etc.
Well, that's supposed to be one of the points, actually. It doesn't help to determine alignment, though, so there's not much point. Well, unless you want to get meta reads, then you have a good reason.
But anyways, another problem would be that a LOT of players would be super easy to pick out from the group. Even with a silly name, Org will be Org.
Post by: webadict on March 17, 2011, 09:51:34 pm
herp derp. wut?Not to mention posting styles, spelling, grammar, sentence structure, etc.
Well, that's supposed to be one of the points, actually. It doesn't help to determine alignment, though, so there's not much point. Well, unless you want to get meta reads, then you have a good reason.
But anyways, another problem would be that a LOT of players would be super easy to pick out from the group. Even with a silly name, Org will be Org.
Post by: Toaster on March 17, 2011, 09:52:16 pm
Post by: Jack A T on March 17, 2011, 10:15:53 pm
Not to mention posting styles, spelling, grammar, sentence structure, etc.
Well, that's supposed to be one of the points, actually. It doesn't help to determine alignment, though, so there's not much point. Well, unless you want to get meta reads, then you have a good reason.
But anyways, another problem would be that a LOT of players would be super easy to pick out from the group. Even with a silly name, Org will be Org.
And with anonymity, players can imitate Org.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 17, 2011, 10:18:20 pm
Of course, then you'd still have people entering their B12 name on accident and whatnot, but still.
Post by: Heliman on March 17, 2011, 10:23:17 pm
Good idea with the Quicktopic, though.
Post by: Mr.Person on March 17, 2011, 10:45:13 pm
And with anonymity, players can imitate Org.
Much offense meant, but why would anybody WANT to be like Org?
Post by: Heliman on March 17, 2011, 10:58:14 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on March 17, 2011, 11:04:14 pm
Post by: Heliman on March 17, 2011, 11:23:44 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on March 18, 2011, 09:46:55 am
Post by: Darvi on March 18, 2011, 09:49:05 am
Post by: Toaster on March 18, 2011, 09:55:16 am
Org axe penguin!
Unhelpful, obtuse, and cryptic is he
Org axe penguin!
If Mafia nonsense be something you hate
Org axe penguin!
Then vote for him now and seal his own fate!
Org axe penguin!
Org axe penguin!
Org axe penguin!
Org axe penguin!
Org aaaxe penguiiin!
Post by: Darvi on March 18, 2011, 10:02:00 am
Post by: Org on March 18, 2011, 05:03:33 pm
Haha, go fuck yourself.And with anonymity, players can imitate Org.
Much offense meant, but why would anybody WANT to be like Org?
Post by: Mr.Person on March 18, 2011, 06:46:52 pm
Post by: Org on March 18, 2011, 07:29:31 pm
Org, I only say that because they'd be copying your posting style, which is crap, and not your scum catching abilities, which are amazing.No need to be sarcastic asshole.
Post by: Darvi on March 18, 2011, 07:33:31 pm
Post by: Heliman on March 19, 2011, 12:28:09 am
The mafia board is easily the most tense of all the boards on the forum, due to bleed-overs from the actual mafia games. This small child board need not be brought to the attention of toady twice in one week.
Post by: Vector on March 19, 2011, 12:35:49 am
I suspect that once the Book issue is a bit more in the past you'll see that we usually get along rather well.
Post by: Bdthemag on March 19, 2011, 12:43:12 am
Bay12'ers (Pro Town) vs. Trolls (Anti Town) and maybe a Lurker (survivor) side thrown in.
Post by: Vector on March 19, 2011, 12:43:52 am
Post by: Heliman on March 19, 2011, 12:44:03 am
Post by: Bdthemag on March 19, 2011, 12:44:26 am
Haha, go look at the Notable Games Archive =)Shit, whenever I have a good idea its already taken...
Post by: webadict on March 19, 2011, 08:38:51 am
We are one step ahead of everyone.Haha, go look at the Notable Games Archive =)Shit, whenever I have a good idea its already taken...
Post by: Leafsnail on March 19, 2011, 09:34:33 am
...Ok, I admit that Cobrarsenic was force-mafia'd. But other than that they were random.
We did have Religious Flame War Mafia which was sort of like that though. Weird because most of the mafia leaders were able to claim without fear of retribution.
Post by: Mr.Person on March 19, 2011, 11:08:33 am
All according to plan.We are one step ahead of everyone.Haha, go look at the Notable Games Archive =)Shit, whenever I have a good idea its already taken...
Post by: Toaster on March 19, 2011, 10:56:53 pm
Post by: breadbocks on March 29, 2011, 07:07:21 am
SOLLUX!!!! *Shakes fist* That screw it all up so badly.
So, new idea: Freze mafia. Once the vote is down, it can't be changed.
Post by: Ottofar on March 29, 2011, 09:14:44 am
Or maybe not, but at least said.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on March 29, 2011, 07:52:26 pm
Also, if anyone wants to figure out how to run A Mafia In a State of Quantum Uncertainty (Quantum Mafia) or run a successful (i.e. not broken) One-lynch, I can tell you what NOT to do on those. But I really would like to see a Quantum Mafia go through.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 29, 2011, 07:57:26 pm
...And it needs to be werewolf. With at most 1 PR, maybe.
Post by: webadict on March 29, 2011, 08:00:17 pm
I think I've sortof understood how quantum mafia works since then. It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how playable it is as an actual game.Anybody who says they understand Quantum Mafia is lying.
...And it needs to be werewolf. With at most 1 PR, maybe.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on March 29, 2011, 08:01:57 pm
Maybe.I think I've sortof understood how quantum mafia works since then. It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how playable it is as an actual game.Anybody who says they understand Quantum Mafia is lying.
...And it needs to be werewolf. With at most 1 PR, maybe.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 29, 2011, 08:15:40 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hmm... maybe I'll run a little simulation of a game as it works according to my understanding.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on March 29, 2011, 08:56:29 pm
One thing though, is that there should be a Alpha/Beta werewolf pair: neither knows about the other, and the Beta only gets a kill if the Alpha is dead.
Alternatively, Quantum scumteams: two possible partners for each player, with hypothetical talking between them. They decide an action for the two partnerships. For example: "If I'm partnered with Player X, he does the kill on Player Y and I roleblock player Z, but with Player Y, I kill player X and Player Y blocks player Z." Each partnership, in my mind would have one player defined as a roleblocker, or would use "The blocker blocks G and the other guy kills Q"
Of course, votes would not be retconned, since up to the lynching of a player, he/she is certainly alive. And retconning votes for N1 deaths, etc. goes into bastard territory.
Post by: webadict on March 29, 2011, 09:01:02 pm
Yeah, that's basically how I interpreted it.I'm just going to point out the obvious flaw of the whole game in that it is basically random. You might as well flip a coin to see who wins. There would be no point in scumtells since EVERYONE WOULD (SORT OF) BE SCUM.
One thing though, is that there should be a Alpha/Beta werewolf pair: neither knows about the other, and the Beta only gets a kill if the Alpha is dead.
Alternatively, Quantum scumteams: two possible partners for each player, with hypothetical talking between them. They decide an action for the two partnerships. For example: "If I'm partnered with Player X, he does the kill on Player Y and I roleblock player Z, but with Player Y, I kill player X and Player Y blocks player Z." Each partnership, in my mind would have one player defined as a roleblocker, or would use "The blocker blocks G and the other guy kills Q"
Of course, votes would not be retconned, since up to the lynching of a player, he/she is certainly alive. And retconning votes for N1 deaths, etc. goes into bastard territory.
No, really, there is no strategy to winning. None.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 29, 2011, 09:04:55 pm
It's definitely more interesting as a thought experiment than as an actual game though.
Post by: webadict on March 29, 2011, 09:06:20 pm
Actually, there is something of a breaking strategy I can see... heh.For which side? Individually or not?
It's definitely more interesting as a thought experiment than as an actual game though.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 30, 2011, 12:35:40 pm
Post by: Heliman on April 28, 2011, 11:34:49 pm
I've been thinking about a "4 Rooms with a TV" mafia game, played almost entirely in Quicktopic. The general concept is that all the players are thrown into various rooms every once in awhile and can't talk to players that are not in the room they are in. The entire crux of playing town successfully will be trying to deal with a constant denial of information, and the crux to playing scum is to play upon that advantage like violinists on a violin. Roles are given out by the traditional F11 distributions, with 8 extra town and one goon tacked on to balance the advantage scum has. I also ran into the problem of players being stranded as only one of a few players in a room, so I made the days into multiple segments, gave each room a special ability when there are few players in it, and had the rooms be periodically destroyed to keep things somewhat crowded.
General Rules
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Every room has it's own specialty, with a special power depending on the amount of people in a room.
Room 1, The TV room
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Room 2, The Record room
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Room 3, The Echo Room
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Room 4, The Dark Room
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pandarsenic on April 29, 2011, 06:30:11 am
Post by: Supercharazad on May 07, 2011, 04:14:15 pm
5 players, one is scum.
The only roles are Townie and Mafia (AKA, Normal and Fake)
The game lasts one week, during which time, all players try to figure out the fake
At the end of the game, all people are asked to vote, if the fake is voted, normals win, otherwise, fake wins.
There is no night, but the entire game is a single day.
Basically, it's like normal mafia, except that you only vote at the end, and win conditions are slightly different.
Post by: Toaster on May 07, 2011, 04:21:36 pm
Never look at your role PM and play townie.
Post by: Supercharazad on May 07, 2011, 04:23:21 pm
Let's break that wide open:
Never look at your role PM and play townie.
But you need to read your role PM in any mafia game anyways. That's a flaw in EVERY mafia game.
Post by: Darvi on May 07, 2011, 04:24:22 pm
Post by: Heliman on May 07, 2011, 05:58:20 pm
Post by: Darvi on May 07, 2011, 05:59:43 pm
Post by: webadict on May 07, 2011, 06:42:17 pm
I think I want to run a Third Party Mafia with 11 parties. Maybe 12 if I can get the Assassin (you win if PLAYER is killed). It's like Lyncher, but less control, as they have no kill. But it aligns well with Lyncher/Jester side for Assassin/Martyr. Whether it makes it more difficult though... Who knows? I think the target would be the Town, but if the Town was lynched, then the Assassin turns Town.
Just making third party less playable.
Post by: Leafsnail on May 07, 2011, 09:25:39 pm
...Yeah, that would just be ridiculous. Trying to deal with an assassin and lyncher and jester at the same time would be hell.
Post by: Mr.Person on May 07, 2011, 09:39:40 pm
Post by: Toaster on May 07, 2011, 09:43:27 pm
Post by: Vector on May 07, 2011, 09:44:27 pm
Pre-in for that one. Don't lynch Person- he's the Jester.
Oh my god, don't even remind me D: That was so embarrassing.
Post by: Ninteen45 on May 07, 2011, 10:03:50 pm
Nobody knows what side they are on!
Post by: webadict on May 07, 2011, 11:14:46 pm
Paranoia mafia!That's what the Mafia WANT you to think!
Nobody knows what side they are on!
Post by: Toaster on May 07, 2011, 11:28:06 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 07, 2011, 11:57:43 pm
Post by: webadict on May 08, 2011, 12:04:54 am
Paranoia Mafia - Seven vanilla townies. Daystart. Hammers. Nightkill selected randomly. Lynched players flip communist. NKed players flip loyal citizen. No win condition. Game ends when two remain.New game - Everyone is mafia. Everyone wins! Nobody knows about the game!
Post by: Mr.Person on May 08, 2011, 01:29:04 am
Pre-in for that one. Don't lynch Person- he's the Jester.
Errytime.
Post by: Supercharazad on May 08, 2011, 04:28:04 am
Which brings us back to Toaster's point.
Which brings us back to my point: You need to read your role PM in any mafia game. DURR
Post by: Leafsnail on May 08, 2011, 06:27:04 am
Post by: Darvi on May 08, 2011, 06:38:51 am
Except for your game. DURRRRR.Which brings us back to Toaster's point.
Which brings us back to my point: You need to read your role PM in any mafia game. DURR
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 08, 2011, 06:55:46 am
Even if you were required to reply with your alignment. Get someone else to do that, then play town.Except for your game. DURRRRR.Which brings us back to Toaster's point.
Which brings us back to my point: You need to read your role PM in any mafia game. DURR
Post by: Darvi on May 08, 2011, 06:56:55 am
Post by: Supercharazad on May 08, 2011, 07:23:04 am
Post by: Leafsnail on May 08, 2011, 08:53:13 am
Even if you were required to reply with your alignment. Get someone else to do that, then play town....If you're prepared to do a major forum rules violation for the sake of a mafia game...
Post by: Supercharazad on May 08, 2011, 09:22:10 am
Even if you were required to reply with your alignment. Get someone else to do that, then play town....If you're prepared to do a major forum rules violation for the sake of a mafia game...
How is it a major forum rules violation?
Post by: webadict on May 08, 2011, 09:38:29 am
Self-induced amnesia.
Post by: Darvi on May 08, 2011, 10:45:31 am
Post by: Heliman on May 08, 2011, 06:51:43 pm
Yeah, it's basically an implicit rule that you have to read your role pm. This is why many forums make players reply to the mod before starting/ post in the mafia quicktopic before the game begins.Me:Jay Jay!
JJ: What?
Me: Can you help me with something? I need to look at this PM on this nerdy site I go to, and do what the PM tells you to do.
JJ:Why?
Me: Because I can't know what my role is!
JJ:Man you have no life.
Me: Only so I can become immortal, Jay Jay, only so I can become immortal.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 08, 2011, 06:54:32 pm
No, wait.
"You are the oracle. You must not be lynched by the mad fundamentalists. GOGOGO!"
Post by: Heliman on May 08, 2011, 07:02:27 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 08, 2011, 07:21:46 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 08, 2011, 07:49:01 pm
Code: [Select]
import friend
Post by: webadict on May 08, 2011, 08:08:39 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on May 08, 2011, 08:15:21 pm
Or you could have bad short term memory.
Artificially or naturally?
Post by: Darvi on May 08, 2011, 08:16:17 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 08, 2011, 09:17:27 pm
Or you could have bad short term memory.
Artificially or naturally?
Louisville sluggerly.
Post by: Heliman on May 08, 2011, 09:35:53 pm
Could it formulate a coherent reply to a question given only in the role PM?yes because it is an actual person because I was being sarcastic lol.
Post by: webadict on May 08, 2011, 10:08:33 pm
Post by: Toaster on May 09, 2011, 08:46:35 am
Post by: Darvi on May 09, 2011, 08:57:35 am
Post by: Toaster on May 09, 2011, 09:58:21 am
Post by: Darvi on May 09, 2011, 09:58:50 am
Post by: Mr.Person on May 10, 2011, 12:12:15 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on June 23, 2011, 01:29:35 am
Post by: Darvi on June 23, 2011, 04:40:29 am
Post by: Toaster on June 23, 2011, 07:56:15 am
Post by: Think0028 on June 27, 2011, 03:06:42 pm
1) I was thinking of starting with 9 players, 1 cult leader, so that the game is over with 3 mislynches. I'm still crunching the numbers a bit as there's an awful lot of possibilities as to what could happen, but does anyone see any imbalance issues with that?
2) I was also thinking about what power roles to add. I'm thinking two power roles: a jailer (both roleblocks the target and prevents culting) and something else.
a) A watcher that knows if the target visited someone (jailer or cult leader doing something) or if the target was visited (targetted by jailer or cult leader). I think this'd be interesting, but am I missing something here? Some game-ending problem? If no one has any particular complaints, I'd probably end up having this as the second power role.
b) An initial confirmed townie, inspired by reading the Cybrid Mafia game. Dunno how much this guy'd matter past D1, but the jailer protecting him could sustain him for long enough to screw over the cult. Then again, cult getting the jailer and then him could screw over the town. Any suggestions here?
Post by: webadict on June 27, 2011, 03:28:23 pm
Post by: Think0028 on June 27, 2011, 03:37:35 pm
The initial confirmed Townie is ACTUALLY less unbalanced than the Watcher, and I'll use statistics to show why in a bit.
Thank you, that's exactly the kind of advice I was looking for, as I was having trouble with the statistics.
Post by: Mr.Person on June 28, 2011, 03:11:51 am
Contownie, jailer, and watcher all claim off the bat and become cleared D1. One-in-six chance of instant town victory instantly.
Let's assume the jailer or watcher get converted and that the watcher's inspection is either blocked or ignored.
One-in-five chance of town victory. Note that the cult controls one-fourth of the vote.
Let's now assume that both the jailer and watcher are subverted as any wise townie would assume.
One-in-four chance of town victory. Note that the cult controls three-sevenths of the vote. If the town misses here, it loses.
I dunno the odds on town victory vs cult victory. I suck at math.
Post by: webadict on June 28, 2011, 07:46:32 am
You're right in assuming that both could claim and make it impossible, but I'll again cover both possibilities:
Let's assume no one claims in the confirmed Town situation:
There's a 1/8 chance of cult being lynched. This is pretty low, and isn't too bad for odds. The only downside is that someone may be lynched early, but even then it's pretty good odds.
At Night is when things get interesting:
The Jailer has a 2/8 chance of guessing correctly (They can both block and protect), but they're going to likely protect the confirmed Townie. So, assuming that, the Cult will probably use their 1/7 chance to try to recruit the Jailer.
After that, the game becomes increasingly more likely for the scum to win. Have 8 people alive and 2 cult means that the next Day would be lylo with 3/7 cult. And by lylo, I mean they need to lynch the Cult Leader or lose, which is 1/7 instead of 3/7.
Good news is that once the Cult Leader is lynched in lylo, they get 2 shots to correctly lynch the remaining cult.
But, yeah, it's probably about a ~50-65% chance that the Cult wins, which is much higher if they make it past Day 1.
The reason that the watcher makes it unbalanced is that there is no immediate target for the jailer, who is then given a much better choice of whom to protect. The confirmed Town is suspicious the Day after the first, and WIFOM plays heavily into it. The watcher has a 50% chance of finding the Cult with his inspection if it comes back true, and even then, the other 50% chance simply needs to have the Jailer counterclaim, and if he's not, then lynch the other guy.
Anyhow, the chance that the cult wins in this one is about 40-60%. Not much, but I think the other one is much more balanced, especially if you don't want games to end Day 2. The top one gives more suspiciousness through the town and that's a good way to play Mafia.
Post by: Think0028 on June 28, 2011, 10:40:04 am
Post by: webadict on June 28, 2011, 11:31:37 am
Post by: Think0028 on June 28, 2011, 01:22:36 pm
Post by: Think0028 on June 28, 2011, 03:34:11 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That seems a tad low. Should I be concerned and consider rebalancing, or should I not worry?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 28, 2011, 03:40:47 pm
Post by: webadict on June 28, 2011, 04:07:48 pm
Post by: Think0028 on June 28, 2011, 04:11:10 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 28, 2011, 04:35:40 pm
Post by: Darvi on June 28, 2011, 04:37:40 pm
Post by: Think0028 on June 28, 2011, 04:49:34 pm
Darvi: As that's part of the point of cults, I don't mind that much. My goal here is to make a fairly simple (unlike Cybrid Mafia), fairly balanced game centered around a cult.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 28, 2011, 05:05:33 pm
Post by: Darvi on June 28, 2011, 05:06:33 pm
Post by: webadict on June 28, 2011, 05:15:38 pm
It's pretty balanced. Investigative roles with no counter are unbalanced. Confirmed Townies with a maybe bodyguard and the chance for him to not be confirmed anymore? Balanced, so long as the Jailer loses his powers on culting.
Overall, I deem your game balanced. Leafsnail is confusing a few things with standard 9p games that have a Godfather/Roleblocker + Doctor/Cop, which would be that the Doctor and the Cop BOTH have counters. The Watcher has 1 potential counter, but that counter is a 50% chance of a false negative. The only plus is that there would likely already be a Cult member by then. The other style is also balanced, but less so.
Post by: Think0028 on June 28, 2011, 05:21:14 pm
EDIT: At the moment, that is. If I added other roles, then yeah, he'd lose his power.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 28, 2011, 06:01:42 pm
Although I hadn't thought about how strong the jailer is... hm. It just feels a bit swingy. If the town lynches wrong and the jailer gets converted, the town is left with no PRs, no confirmable townies (unless the scum jailkeeper claims to have guarded the initial CT) and is in a virtual lylo situation already (frankly I don't rate their chances at 3 out of 7 when the cultists can basically jester and every single townie would have to correctly identify the cult leader... it would require nothing short of a miracle for the town to get out of that one).
Post by: Bdthemag on July 15, 2011, 08:41:56 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on July 15, 2011, 11:11:56 pm
Hm, just throwing around ideas. But what if there was a Bay12 Mafia where the roles were the subforums on Bay12?
The goal would be to lynch the Mafia... subforum.
Post by: Max White on July 15, 2011, 11:16:14 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on July 15, 2011, 11:35:48 pm
Post by: Toaster on July 15, 2011, 11:36:44 pm
Some of the crazier boards could be third party.
Or better yet, just randomize the scum ones so Mafia could be town.
(GD is Jester)
Post by: Max White on July 15, 2011, 11:40:35 pm
Modding would be like the paranormal enchanter?
Post by: Think0028 on July 15, 2011, 11:51:17 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on July 16, 2011, 12:00:51 am
Post by: Vector on July 16, 2011, 12:06:01 am
I've had alot of ideas for mafia games lately, but unfortunately due to the fact im not exactely well known on the Mafia subforums no one would really join any of the games I run :P
Get a co-mod, man! If you've got a good idea and want to run with it, please do. We need to train up the next generation of mods, too.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 16, 2011, 12:23:23 am
Post by: Leafsnail on July 16, 2011, 08:34:58 am
Post by: Bdthemag on July 17, 2011, 02:37:45 am
Post by: Mr.Person on July 17, 2011, 12:10:55 pm
Another game idea could be that each player sends in a role from a past mafia game, that role will be sent out to someone other than the player who sent it in (and modified if needed.). Could provide some interesting gameplay, especially if people choose roles from the past BYOR's.
Didn't somebody have this idea before? I'm not even sure, but it's a good idea nonetheless.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 18, 2011, 01:00:27 am
Post by: breadbocks on July 19, 2011, 10:37:27 pm
Just a quick idea that's probably really not a good one. Twin mafia, where two players play the same person. Say there was 14 people who signed up. That means 7 teams, and 7 roles. It'd have 2 mafia, same chance of cop/doc/roleblocker/godfather as vanilla. But it would get very interesting very fast.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 19, 2011, 10:38:29 pm
Post by: Vector on July 19, 2011, 10:38:40 pm
Sounds interesting, but relies on a player having done a BYOR before to be able to play.
. . . How so?
Post by: breadbocks on July 19, 2011, 11:02:49 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on July 25, 2011, 07:46:53 pm
So, the basic idea is to have the 6 characters, 6 weapons and 9 rooms that the game has*. Day phases would work much like a standard mafia dayphase, with one exception. Nights, however, would be pretty different. They'd be divided up into sections, in which people would be running around the rooms, investigating, finding evidence, murdering etc.
Incidentally, you'd really, really need a co-mod for this. And probably a special mod quickchat to keep track of everything and make sure it keeps running smoothly. And 6 very reliable players.
Spoiler: Day to day cycle (click to show/hide)
This ruleset is obviously vague and imperfect (and probably suffers from several breaking strategies... I might just have to put a hard restriction on attempting to coordinate furture night actions with other players). I mean, I haven't even got on to witnessing stuff happening and things... but I feel a gametype like this could be pretty fun. I'd definitely appreciate feedback on the stuff I have got, though.
*Although since I'd really prefer to keep it to 1 culprit 6 people would probably make it staggeringly difficult for scum even on a nightstart. Maybe 2 culprits (still with only one murder between them) and town has to lynch right every time due to the huge amount of information that comes out each night?
Post by: Darvi on July 26, 2011, 04:12:56 pm
However, 2 culprits and only 6 players sets everybody instantly at what amounts to mylo. While it's perhaps possible for even a single person to kill both culprits it's still kinda unforgiving.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 26, 2011, 06:50:36 pm
2 mafia out of 6 is definitely unforgiving (I know from having it played it on #mafia a whole lot), but it could work considering the sheer amount of information that would come out every night (scum would have to work pretty hard to create decent alibis). I'd probably avoid having other kill sources in such a small game though for swinginess reasons.
Post by: Pandarsenic on July 28, 2011, 06:44:11 pm
Concepts to use:
Nondeterministic Fun that activates progressively more vicious effects depending how hard they try to outguess me
Time-sensitive Fun
Death-sensitive Fun
Vote-sensitive or Vote-causing Fun
Fire-sensitive Fun
Fun-sensitive Fun
Other ideas for me? I feel like I just forgot one I wanted to use.
Post by: Think0028 on July 28, 2011, 07:08:43 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on July 28, 2011, 09:16:16 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on July 28, 2011, 09:48:02 pm
Post by: Jack A T on July 29, 2011, 05:32:11 pm
Post by: Pandarsenic on July 29, 2011, 09:21:21 pm
Pandar just feels like it-sensitive fun?
That seems like it's getting dangerously close to Bastard Modding because then I'll be tempted to manipulate the Secret Butt Fun.
Maybe, though.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 29, 2011, 09:29:36 pm
As it is, though, I feel like the mafia probably gets an inherent boost from this kindof game since they can coordinate their fun and won't shoot each other to pieces for doing stupid, scummy things (unless of course you make scum with mutually exclusive fun conditions).
Post by: Dariush on August 22, 2011, 02:45:59 am
Behold - the Chainlynch mafia!
The game consists on one night and one day, in that order. In the night, the scum team creates an ordered list of people they are going to kill (but don't kill anyone). When it is finished, they can't edit it, and the game moves into the day phase.
In day, things also work differently. Everyone has three (or maybe five for large games) votes, which he can arbitratily spread among players. When the day ends, people are sorted by the amount of votes on them. If two people have an equal amount of votes, whoever got his last vote first takes precedence.
Now, after that the first person on the scumlist gets killed and the first person on the votelist gets lynched. The cycle continues until one team loses all it's players. Whichever team remains wins.
Discuss.
*For various values of 'uber'.
**For various values of 'awesome'.
Post by: Mr.Person on August 22, 2011, 03:15:10 am
Since I don't see any quantifiable problems, I'd say go for it. I would be careful about how many votes everybody has, though. Might as well just give them as many votes as members the mafia has. Hey, if you do things perfectly, you'll be voting the whole mafia.
Post by: TolyK on August 22, 2011, 04:29:25 am
second of all, wondering if it would be a good idea to do a Beginner's Bastard Mafia game. I'll have to get roles <name here>-Approved, though, but I've started thinking.
Post by: Mr.Person on August 22, 2011, 01:51:33 pm
first of all, Dariush, I like that idea a lot!
second of all, wondering if it would be a good idea to do a Beginner's Bastard Mafia game. I'll have to get roles <name here>-Approved, though, but I've started thinking.
The whole point of a Beginner's game is that it's the simplest implementation possible so the new guys aren't overwhelmed. The whole point of a Bastard game is to be as complex as possible to confuse and overwhelm the players.
So not only no, hell no.
Post by: Dariush on August 22, 2011, 01:53:09 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on August 22, 2011, 02:19:49 pm
Also, does the mafia jump over dead people on their kill list? I assumed so, but you never know. I assume the lynch vote jumps over the same way as well, by the way.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on August 22, 2011, 04:13:58 pm
A: Since everyone is on the list, give a first place a 1, second place a 2, and so on. Fewest points gets lynched.
B: As above, but give (Place *2 - 1) points: 1, 3, 5...
C: Most first-place votes gets lynched (tie is determined by second place votes, and so on), then gets removed from everyone's lists, which are renumbered, keeping the same order (So everyone has the same number first through X). Rinse, repeat.
Once the first two or three games go through, you could introduce roleblockers or other non-information power roles.
Post by: Dariush on August 23, 2011, 03:18:41 am
I'd be curious what happens if there's a few players with no votes on them whatsoever. Like if, say, everybody voted the exact same way.I really, really doubt this situation may arise, but just in case, I thought of a new mechanic. It sounds overcomplicated, but I doubt there are any other viable alternatives.
There's a third list, created at the game signups. Every player states in his opening post which position on it he would like to take. The first person in the list gets, let's say, 5 votes, which he can absolutely arbitrarily spread among other people (2.25 votes on one, 1 on second and 1.75 on third, for example), but in case of a tie he gets lynched first. Second person gets 4.75, in case of a tie with first he gets lynched second, but in case of a tie with any other person he gets lynched first, and so on until the bottommost gets 3 votes but in case of a tie with anyone he gets lynched last.
What do you think about it?
Also, does the mafia jump over dead people on their kill list? I assumed so, but you never know. I assume the lynch vote jumps over the same way as well, by the way.Yes and yes.
Perhaps people put all the other players in order. There's a number of ways to score it
A: Since everyone is on the list, give a first place a 1, second place a 2, and so on. Fewest points gets lynched.
B: As above, but give (Place *2 - 1) points: 1, 3, 5...
C: Most first-place votes gets lynched (tie is determined by second place votes, and so on), then gets removed from everyone's lists, which are renumbered, keeping the same order (So everyone has the same number first through X). Rinse, repeat.
Do you mean that everyone has to vote for everyone else, but with various number of points?
Post by: Mr.Person on August 23, 2011, 03:49:21 am
If you don't want to go that route, you could also just say that if there's a tie, nobody gets lynched. That should solve things nicely.
Post by: Dariush on August 23, 2011, 08:55:42 am
If you don't want to go that route, you could also just say that if there's a tie, nobody gets lynched. That should solve things nicely.If there's a tie, either the list progresses on and both people tied become unlynchable or it stops right there and scum wins. Which of those are 'nice'?
Post by: Mephansteras on August 23, 2011, 10:49:36 am
If you don't want to go that route, you could also just say that if there's a tie, nobody gets lynched. That should solve things nicely.If there's a tie, either the list progresses on and both people tied become unlynchable or it stops right there and scum wins. Which of those are 'nice'?
Ties are extremely likely. So having scum win on any tie would just hand the game to scum every time.
Post by: Mr.Person on August 23, 2011, 01:23:59 pm
Post by: Dariush on August 24, 2011, 02:41:18 am
I meant a tie with no votes. Woopsies! For other ties, first to get to that number of votes is great.So basically if nobody voted for more than one person, everyone remaining becomes unlynchable?
Post by: Mr.Person on August 24, 2011, 08:03:42 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on August 24, 2011, 08:33:16 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on August 24, 2011, 11:38:40 pm
Post by: Dariush on August 25, 2011, 10:39:12 am
Just have the players vote randomlyExcept in real games people
I guess I'll host a test game tomorrow and we'll see the results without having to guess.
Post by: Orangebottle on November 15, 2011, 02:45:16 pm
I just had an interesting idea.
3-role Mafia.
Basically, the 'mafia' would start as one person with three roles. If he gets lynched, one of the roles is removed and the original mafia is kicked from the game. Another player(chosen at random) has his role replaced with those two roles.
Post by: TolyK on November 15, 2011, 02:45:52 pm
number of players: 8*
number of mafiosi: 4*
number of doors: 9*
*should be balanced better :P
every day, folks can vote to:
a. send xxx to check door yy
b. lynch xxx
c. do nothing
if a, xxx is goes into door yy at night. he will either be killed, or he will gain an item.
mafia can chat freely, and they know which door contains the kill item.
if xxx dies, they die, and everyone knows.
if xxx gets an item, everyone is told, but the item is unknown.
basically it.
Post by: Orangebottle on November 15, 2011, 02:53:08 pm
A common scum strategy in that type would be to trick the town into sending a mafioso at the kill item. They could also trick the town into sending a townie into a trap. This would lead to a lot of deaths very fast.
n1:mafioso gets kill item, mafiakill 7/8 Townies
n2:lynch/townie sent to wrong door, mafioso and mafiakill. 4/8 Townies, scum wins.
Should probably have a max of two scum. Or you could change the items behind each door. One could be an extra vote, one could be a redirect, etc.
Post by: TolyK on November 15, 2011, 03:02:03 pm
plus, this would cause tons of wifom, so probably 2-3 scum is a good idea...
Post by: Leafsnail on November 16, 2011, 08:58:00 pm
Every player in the game starts with a timer set to a particular number - that timer represents the time you have left. At the end of every day or night phase, all players have the number on their timer reduced by 1. If a player's timer is on 0 at the end of a phase, they die.
Most of the timers start with reasonably high values but your abilities will generally reduce the amount of time you have left. You have to choose between a useful action you can use now or the ability to stay in this world longer.
The number on your timer you get represents a time limit, not a guarantee - you can still die in the normal ways regardless of how high your number is (for instance, if your timer reads "12" and you are lynched, you still die).
The setup would be closed but not at all bastard (everything in your role pm is true, no roles that seriously mislead the town and nothing wildly different from other mafia games bar the timer stuff).
Post by: Mr.Person on November 17, 2011, 05:03:33 am
Post by: Leafsnail on November 17, 2011, 10:06:12 am
Post by: Mr.Person on November 17, 2011, 02:07:17 pm
The problem is that most games will not last past D4. The optimal strategy is spam all your abilities beforehand so the game won't get that far. But if you don't give anyone the ability to live past D4 and the game does get that far, everyone dies and gets pissed off.
I can see it working with the right set of roles starting with one that gives out extra time, a mafia role (or even a cut cloth replacement for their kill) that steals time, ect ect. But this all has to be done correctly and you have to be aware of how long an average game will last. You then have to think of situations where the time limit can be exceeded and try to get rid of as many of those scenarios as possible.
Another issue I just realized, players having to juggle how much time they have left along with how much time they might need results in complex decision making to figure out if they can use a role power once or twice. Since it's clearly never correct to hold back all of your time, the choice is do you hold back some of your time or most of your time? Or none of it, if you've got a sweet power like vigging, but whatever, I digress. Here's a hint, the correct choice is to only hold back some time unless your power is terrible, then hold all your time to try to get to lylo.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 17, 2011, 03:17:24 pm
You then have to think of situations where the time limit can be exceeded and try to get rid of as many of those scenarios as possible.Well, that's surely the risk you're running when you burn all your time early - that your limit will be exceeded and you'll die before the enemy. If I make it so that isn't a possibility then yes, you might as well just fire off all your powers.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 17, 2011, 03:47:01 pm
Post by: Mr.Person on November 19, 2011, 01:34:24 am
Just be aware that the town's optimal strategy is probably to instantly MC the time they all have left and then go from there. Mostly this is just to avoid lynching people with short amounts of time left and just let time run its course for those people.
And I have been oh so very wrong about how fun certain setups would and wouldn't be in the past. Hell I'd probably join it, I just think the whole system is very convoluted and somewhat unnecessary. There's already a time limit in the game in the form of the mafiakill, I'm just not seeing what adding a second clock adds to the game. But all that does not mean the game would be unfun, just not as fun as it could of been.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 19, 2011, 06:37:18 pm
No no, I meant avoid scenarios where the town kills itself off through an overabundance of protections and RB's. I think avoiding making the mafia's optimal strategy "do nothing so they all die at once" would be good too, but hey, you do whatever. Just make sure that you tell the mafia to refrain from killing if you want them to do so since they may not think of the strategy on their own.They wouldn't all die at once since they all have differently lengthed clocks. Sitting there doing nothing as mafia would have advantages, but also disadvantages in that you'd be a lot weaker PR wise than you could be (so while the town is firing off inspects, protects and possibly kills you're not responding with protections, unblockable kills or inspection misleading abilities). It's kindof about speed vs endurance.
Just be aware that the town's optimal strategy is probably to instantly MC the time they all have left and then go from there. Mostly this is just to avoid lynching people with short amounts of time left and just let time run its course for those people.If you do that, then yes, the mafia can kill the people with long clocks and wait out the people with short clocks (in the same way if you claim roles they can kill all the good ones). Solution: don't massclaim times.
There's already a time limit in the game in the form of the mafiakill, I'm just not seeing what adding a second clock adds to the game.Well, it's a time limit for each individual player which fuels their abilities (I was thinking of just having a "mana pool" type arrangement, but I feel this way there's more of a potential consequence for overdoing it). In this there'd be a tactical choice about whether you can afford to use your ability or not and to what extent, wheras in a one shot game the tactic would generally be to fire it night one and hope for the best.
Post by: Mr.Person on November 21, 2011, 07:03:56 am
So if you're a townie, you always spam abilities if you have more time than the game will last. That's obvious and I'm hoping we all knew that. But you see, if you're not surviving to the end of the game anyways, you might as well spam off all your abilities ASAP. By lasting longer you're only delaying the inevitable. Breaking lylo on D6 and breaking lylo on D4 are the same loss, except in one case you have all these abilities used that might of helped you catch a scum. Point is, there's simply no room between "will die after the game ends so it's irrelevant" and "dies before game ends, breaking lylo and losing the game for the town, game ends with a loss". Well, I guess if a townie and mafia player ran out of time at the same time things would be fine, but then you have to make sure that both the sacrificial lambs have a purpose, had fun, and contributed to their team somehow.
If MCing time left screws over the town, statistically, the town would wind up randomly losing more games than I would consider acceptable to lose via random chance. If there's even two townies in a 13p game with gimped timers that run out before MC, that's borderline too many. Worst case is running out ON lylo since then the town loses no matter what it does.
Post by: Dariush on December 11, 2011, 12:26:15 pm
Woah, I fit all that into one sentence and it's even intelligible. I really need to sleep more.
Post by: webadict on December 11, 2011, 12:53:23 pm
What do you think, guys, would the setup work if we have a scum team who don't know each other's identity and may only communicate by PMing the mod with a message (possibly with a limit of 2-3 messages per person per day) they want to send who then removes all the verbal tics, typical grammatical errors and such from the message and relays it to the other scum (obviously, the message can't contain any revealing information), while there's a couple of roles who can work on this mechanic (blatantly listening on the scumteam plans, two people thinking they're scum but only being able to speak between themselves, blocking target player from sending and receiving messages, etc.)?Several problems with that:
Woah, I fit all that into one sentence and it's even intelligible. I really need to sleep more.
1) No scumteam coordinaton. It loses its informed minority vs. uninformed majority. You can't play as a team.
2) Listening in on the scumteam is BAD. Scumkills would be frustrating to pick, and anyone listening could eventually deduce players, especially since they don't know who's on their team. A good example of why this is bad is the Paranormal game with a PM-reading Watcher.
3) It's a lot of unnecessary work. There's a reason we use Quicktopic. It's because we like not finding 20 new PMs every day. Not only that, but you're also relaying these message unnecessarily. Doing secret messages is fun, but not with the scum team.
Post by: Dariush on December 12, 2011, 07:29:30 am
Post by: webadict on December 12, 2011, 07:54:35 am
Well, crap. Okay, a modification: what if scumteam has a QT as normal, but there's a pro-town role who can also read it? It would be in the scum's interest to hide their own identities, plus there would be much fakeclaiming awesomeness. And after this agent is killed, it would be safe for the scum to reveal themselves in QT.This one still has all the faults of issue 1 and 2. What happens is that the scumteam simply doesn't post in it. It might as well be a bunch of sks working together.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 05, 2012, 09:01:58 pm
This has continued to seem like more of a good idea the longer I think about it. I was just joking at first!It's in the planning stages.This means it's going to be ridiculous, I hope. Maybe three separate, overlapping realities, each with its own rules and consequences?! Traverse reality, a simulation, and the dream world in a roving quest to defeat your adversaries on all fronts!!!
Maybe? :P
Anyway, Phase Mafia. There's three phases/worlds/designations, and different abilities interact with and affect different phases or qualities thereof differently or at all. At its most basic, a Phase 1 Nightkill might not affect a Phase 2 Player, for instance.
What phases a player or ability belongs to could get more complex, but something similar to Paranormal's set of Goals could work, in that it's a combination of what a player is and what they do that night. So for instance, a player could, by default, belong to Phase 1, but when using a Phase 2 Nightkill, switch over to and count as Phase 2. Whether they'd go back to being Phase 1 when not using said ability is another matter, and might vary between players/abilities.
Ideally, the end result is a sort of cat and mouse game where players have to balance doing what they want to do with being where they want to be. This would be more obvious if the phases had actual effects associated with them- immune to nightkills, can't be lynched, etc- but so long as there was some way to estimate the effects (knowing killing roles are "more common" in a given phase, for instance) it could have more substance than just randomly hopping around.
As an extreme variant, these things could be changeable or ever-changing, maybe even structured as a card game rather than being run with preset roles.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 05, 2012, 09:13:11 pm
As an extreme variant, these things could be changeable or ever-changing, maybe even structured as a card game rather than being run with preset roles.Suddenly... Bring Your Own Cards Mafia comes into my mind.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 05, 2012, 09:45:17 pm
I now like this a lot. BYOR + BSER + Bad Ideas = Fun!As an extreme variant, these things could be changeable or ever-changing, maybe even structured as a card game rather than being run with preset roles.Suddenly... Bring Your Own Cards Mafia comes into my mind.
Post by: Urist McUselessNoble on February 06, 2012, 02:55:32 am
Dwarf Fortress Mafia: Vanilla Mafia, except all roles have dorfy names. Vig -> Hammerer; Assassin -> Snatcher; Townie -> Dwarf; Mafia -> Goblin; Doctor -> Surgeon; Cult Leader -> Cat; Survivor -> Human Merchant; Jester -> Elf Merchant; and so on and etcetera.
Initial flavour being that Urist McDuke was found in his room having suffered an Unfortunate Accident after Mandating the production of a full set of Slade furniture, and since this couldn't possibly be the work of any dwarf, you have to start looking for sneaky gobbos.
Bastardness can be added to taste.
Mess o' Masons: Everybody is in at least two Masonic Orders. One (or more, depending on the size of the game and bastardness of the mod) of said Orders being the scumteam.
Lynch the Lynchers: A single serial killer and a bunch of townies. The catch: All the townies need to off both the SK and another townie to win. Game over when the SK buys it. The trick: D1 massclaim can reveal the SK, but if the SK is lynched D1, everybody loses.
Post by: IronyOwl on February 06, 2012, 03:12:42 am
Three ideas, all of which might be fun, Fun or just plain horribad:Not really a new gametype if it's not bastardy, then. Flavor can be interesting, but it doesn't make the game unless it's explicitly designed to.
Dwarf Fortress Mafia: Vanilla Mafia, except all roles have dorfy names. Vig -> Hammerer; Assassin -> Snatcher; Townie -> Dwarf; Mafia -> Goblin; Doctor -> Surgeon; Cult Leader -> Cat; Survivor -> Human Merchant; Jester -> Elf Merchant; and so on and etcetera.
Initial flavour being that Urist McDuke was found in his room having suffered an Unfortunate Accident after Mandating the production of a full set of Slade furniture, and since this couldn't possibly be the work of any dwarf, you have to start looking for sneaky gobbos.
Bastardness can be added to taste.
We did have a DF game once. The idea was that the players had to keep the fortress running, supplying food, fighting off elephants, etc, in addition to rooting out the scum. I forget what happened to it.
Mess o' Masons: Everybody is in at least two Masonic Orders. One (or more, depending on the size of the game and bastardness of the mod) of said Orders being the scumteam.Interesting, but I'm forced to wonder just how much of an impact this would have. Unless town began organizing themselves in an attempt to break the setup, wouldn't most mason groups just ignore each other, since talking to each other privately usually wouldn't have any advantage over saying it publicly?
Lynch the Lynchers: A single serial killer and a bunch of townies. The catch: All the townies need to off both the SK and another townie to win. Game over when the SK buys it. The trick: D1 massclaim can reveal the SK, but if the SK is lynched D1, everybody loses.I like the concept, but it's got some major execution problems. D1, what happens? Everyone tries to lynch their target. How do you get any kind of consensus? Do a handful of townies make a gentleman's agreement to dispatch each others' targets, then hunt down the SK? Do some people volunteer to lose?
Sure, everyone could keep their target secret and pretend they're looking for the SK, but why bother? Everyone knows they're not actually looking for the SK unless they've already hit their target, and nobody wants them to find the SK unless they've personally hit their target. It's also not like knowing who everyone else wants dead helps all that much- you might become a target once your victim knows you're gunning for them, but honestly how much are they going to care? If you're able to lynch them, they're obviously not able to swing the lynch where they need it anyway, and if they're able to lynch you, you can either swing the vote to your actual target anyway or you already have so there's no reason you'd care.
So, yeah. Needs a lot more nuance to be viable.
Post by: Urist McUselessNoble on February 06, 2012, 03:32:45 am
2) Looking at the first Kill Webaddict Now thread suggests a number of interesting uses of masons for Town. In fact, townies would be almost bound to either massclaim publicly or in each mason group, in order to map the mason web. Because then, in the setup as written, you can stop looking at the mason groups with members who get nightkilled. Depending on the degree of interconnection in the setup, either strategy could be tricky for the scumteam. If all groups are interconnected with all other groups, the scumteam will have to be very careful about picking off their targets after a massclaim. OTOH, a public massclaim would let the scum know exactly how the network looks and so let them design a strategy. While a mason chat massclaim would turn into a game of Chinese whispers.
3) Point. D1 play would be pretty useless, and the obvious Nash equilibrium is for the SK to pick off the strongest townie by being the tiebreaker between all the Lynchers. Starting with a night phase instead would solve that problem, but also instakill a player before getting to play. Starting out with two vanilla townies (or masons) would break the symmetry, by forcing everyone to claim town (claiming lyncher against two town and an SK vote in a chain-lyncher setup is a strictly dominated strategy as far as I can tell).
Post by: webadict on February 06, 2012, 08:20:54 am
Actually, what you're thinking of is BYOR:DE. There was an actual DF Mafia with a similar setup, except Elves were the scum. I would know. I ran four of them.Three ideas, all of which might be fun, Fun or just plain horribad:Not really a new gametype if it's not bastardy, then. Flavor can be interesting, but it doesn't make the game unless it's explicitly designed to.
Dwarf Fortress Mafia: Vanilla Mafia, except all roles have dorfy names. Vig -> Hammerer; Assassin -> Snatcher; Townie -> Dwarf; Mafia -> Goblin; Doctor -> Surgeon; Cult Leader -> Cat; Survivor -> Human Merchant; Jester -> Elf Merchant; and so on and etcetera.
Initial flavour being that Urist McDuke was found in his room having suffered an Unfortunate Accident after Mandating the production of a full set of Slade furniture, and since this couldn't possibly be the work of any dwarf, you have to start looking for sneaky gobbos.
Bastardness can be added to taste.
We did have a DF game once. The idea was that the players had to keep the fortress running, supplying food, fighting off elephants, etc, in addition to rooting out the scum. I forget what happened to it.
I, again, came up with this strategy before KWN. Mephansteras stole it from me when I used it in Paranormal. I'll never get proper credit for these strategies, just like when I told Org to claim Doctor in Paranormal 2.Mess o' Masons: Everybody is in at least two Masonic Orders. One (or more, depending on the size of the game and bastardness of the mod) of said Orders being the scumteam.Interesting, but I'm forced to wonder just how much of an impact this would have. Unless town began organizing themselves in an attempt to break the setup, wouldn't most mason groups just ignore each other, since talking to each other privately usually wouldn't have any advantage over saying it publicly?
Well, seeing as how nobody would get anybody lynched for fear of losing, I'm going to assume this would lead to a standstill Day 1, and then nothing would happen afterward.Lynch the Lynchers: A single serial killer and a bunch of townies. The catch: All the townies need to off both the SK and another townie to win. Game over when the SK buys it. The trick: D1 massclaim can reveal the SK, but if the SK is lynched D1, everybody loses.I like the concept, but it's got some major execution problems. D1, what happens? Everyone tries to lynch their target. How do you get any kind of consensus? Do a handful of townies make a gentleman's agreement to dispatch each others' targets, then hunt down the SK? Do some people volunteer to lose?
Sure, everyone could keep their target secret and pretend they're looking for the SK, but why bother? Everyone knows they're not actually looking for the SK unless they've already hit their target, and nobody wants them to find the SK unless they've personally hit their target. It's also not like knowing who everyone else wants dead helps all that much- you might become a target once your victim knows you're gunning for them, but honestly how much are they going to care? If you're able to lynch them, they're obviously not able to swing the lynch where they need it anyway, and if they're able to lynch you, you can either swing the vote to your actual target anyway or you already have so there's no reason you'd care.
So, yeah. Needs a lot more nuance to be viable.
Post by: Urist McUselessNoble on February 06, 2012, 09:04:51 am
Post by: webadict on February 06, 2012, 09:14:12 am
No, the SK would polish someone off in the night, and then you'd have your symmetry break, since this would turn one of the lynchers into a townie. But you can skip the D1 kabuki by simply having a townie or two from the get-go.Um... No you don't.
Then there's just an extra townie who knows who the SK is, but no one else will vote him.
Post by: Urist McUselessNoble on February 06, 2012, 09:38:56 am
Post by: webadict on February 06, 2012, 09:40:38 am
That assumes D1 massclaim. If you throw a townie into the mix, the optimal move for everybody in a D1MC is going to be to claim to be the townie.But, everyone STILL knows you lose if you lynch the sk, so the actually optimal move is to extend the day infinitely.
And lynching anyone else is pretty much out of the question.
Post by: Urist McUselessNoble on February 06, 2012, 10:32:48 am
In which case the optimal play in a setup where your vote was kept secret would be to vote your lynch target if you're a lyncher and hope that the townies mislynch him, a townie if you're the SK and the SK if you're townie. So with two townies, the lynchers will lose if they sit on their hands or if they massclaim. They need to convince the townies that they are actually the other townie (so the townies can't be masons), and the lynch target is the SK. The SK, meanwhile, needs to convince them that he's either a townie or a lyncher (which would make him a lynch target and therefore not the SK).
Post by: webadict on February 06, 2012, 10:46:30 am
I wasn't aware that indefinite extensions were available. Isn't the usual convention to limit extensions to one or two 24 or 48 hour periods?But, there's no point to do anything ever. No talking happens. It's basically a gamble to see who wins.
In which case the optimal play in a setup where your vote was kept secret would be to vote your lynch target if you're a lyncher and hope that the townies mislynch him, a townie if you're the SK and the SK if you're townie. So with two townies, the lynchers will lose if they sit on their hands or if they massclaim. They need to convince the townies that they are actually the other townie (so the townies can't be masons), and the lynch target is the SK. The SK, meanwhile, needs to convince them that he's either a townie or a lyncher (which would make him a lynch target and therefore not the SK).
Not really fun, if you ask me.
Post by: Toaster on February 06, 2012, 10:59:49 am
I wasn't aware that indefinite extensions were available. Isn't the usual convention to limit extensions to one or two 24 or 48 hour periods?
Rules on extensions are up to the mod. For example, I don't limit them, while Mephansteras limits them to two per day.
Post by: Shakerag on February 10, 2012, 11:26:56 am
Like, perhaps take something like a BYOR but instead you don't know what your own role is, and you get someone else's role PM (slightly modified to protect non-town/mason teams?) Obviously those in said teams would have to get a separate PM for the quicktopic link.
Just wondering if this would be playable or a horrible mess.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 10, 2012, 11:38:24 am
Post by: Shakerag on February 10, 2012, 11:42:04 am
If non-town were to fakeclaim about the roles they received, would it be terribly easy to out them? I suppose if you had a number of roles that had similar abilities that might make it a bit more difficult ...
Yeah, I suppose I'm wondering if there's any way to make it so that a massclaim wouldn't break the entire setup.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 10, 2012, 12:33:33 pm
Post by: webadict on February 10, 2012, 01:12:46 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on February 10, 2012, 09:24:32 pm
Post by: webadict on February 10, 2012, 11:39:23 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on February 11, 2012, 10:11:14 pm
Post by: Darvi on February 16, 2012, 04:47:06 pm
Post by: webadict on February 16, 2012, 09:03:49 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 16, 2012, 09:42:48 pm
Post by: Dariush on February 21, 2012, 11:49:28 am
Basic premise: every townie (but not scum, who have to fakeclaim if (or rather when) a massclaim comes) gets a named role, but no special abilities. All named roles are openly listed. To spice things up, there's a role cop and two townies share the same role.
Opinions?
Post by: Urist McUselessNoble on February 21, 2012, 11:53:17 am
Con: Players may come to rely on finding inconsistencies in flavourclaims rather than developing the scumhunting they'll need for flavour-free games.
Post by: webadict on February 21, 2012, 12:16:50 pm
I've got an idea for a... Flavor-Heavy Beginners'.Downvote.
Basic premise: every townie (but not scum, who have to fakeclaim if (or rather when) a massclaim comes) gets a named role, but no special abilities. All named roles are openly listed. To spice things up, there's a role cop and two townies share the same role.
Opinions?
This is a very bad idea, because scum should not have to guess correctly their role. It's like having a Themed Game with the Beatles. There's only four of them, so that fifth one has to claim one of them or get lynched immediately. And then he gets lynched the next Day even if he makes it.
Post by: Dariush on February 21, 2012, 12:57:45 pm
This is a very bad idea, because scum should not have to guess correctly their role. It's like having a Themed Game with the Beatles. There's only four of them, so that fifth one has to claim one of them or get lynched immediately. And then he gets lynched the next Day even if he makes it.Wait... what? The scum won't have to guess whose role? Fifth who?
Post by: webadict on February 21, 2012, 01:09:59 pm
I've got an idea for a... Flavor-Heavy Beginners'.Every Townie gets a named role.
Basic premise: every townie (but not scum, who have to fakeclaim if (or rather when) a massclaim comes) gets a named role, but no special abilities. All named roles are openly listed. To spice things up, there's a role cop and two townies share the same role.
Opinions?
All named roles are openly listed.
Scum do not get a named role.
Massclaim first day, game over.
Post by: Dariush on February 21, 2012, 01:15:11 pm
Massclaim first day, game over.Except among 5 townies three roles would get a duplicate.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 21, 2012, 01:37:23 pm
Also if you counterclaim the rolecops rolename then you instantly lose.
Post by: Dariush on February 21, 2012, 02:14:40 pm
/me headdesks.
Post by: Urist McUselessNoble on February 21, 2012, 04:27:56 pm
- Mafia does not get a nightkill, but the town is not told how many scum there are (or indeed whether there are any), nor do players roleflip when they die.
- Day ends with hammer.
- As an alternative to hammering, the town can vote to end the game: If they have eliminated all scum and end the game, then town wins. If they have not and end the game, scum wins.
- To give the town an incentive to not just keep lynching when they believe they have found all scum, townies are given functions, such as "driver," "gunner," "hideout," "safecracker." Each player is give multiple different functions, such that the town a number of townies who can fill each function. If the town does not have a full team when they end the game, the game is a draw. The number of functions and the number of functions per townie (and thus the amount of redundancy) must obviously be varied with the number of players.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 21, 2012, 04:30:35 pm
Post by: Urist McUselessNoble on February 21, 2012, 04:47:20 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 21, 2012, 05:04:04 pm
Post by: Shakerag on February 29, 2012, 11:29:00 am
Post by: Darvi on February 29, 2012, 11:32:57 am
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on February 29, 2012, 11:34:41 am
Post by: webadict on February 29, 2012, 11:45:11 am
Post by: Dariush on February 29, 2012, 12:16:56 pm
RTD mafiawut
Post by: Toaster on February 29, 2012, 12:25:43 pm
Let's look at cop and doc, for instance:
Cop:
1: No result, and target is told you were trying to inspect them.
2: No result.
3: Result that has a 50% chance to be naive.
4: Result.
5: Result- ignores godfather/miller effects.
6: Result, but target is told they were inspected.
It might as well just be a 50% cop.
Doc:
1: The target dies.
2: No effect.
3: 50% chance of protect.
4: Target is protected.
5: Target and target's target are protected.
6: CPR Doc effect.
You're nearly as likely to kill the target as to protect it.
Post by: Bookthras on February 29, 2012, 12:39:45 pm
* Then your cop is 67% cop, not 50%, and is never naive (but question: why would the target be told on a 6?)
* Then your doc has only a 16% chance of a kill, and a 67% of a successful protect (but question: what does a CPR doc do?)
But yeah, the random effect is too big and somewhat discouraging, as people are used to just having abilities, and having them work reliably and consistently. The random effect makes skill seem less important. But I would in on something like this.
The early RTD experiment, if I recall correctly, had a standard Mafia gameplay, and a RTD game going on within flavour. It was fun to read, but some thought not as fun to play. But I'd in for one of those too.
Post by: Dariush on February 29, 2012, 12:43:11 pm
Doc:
1: The target dies.
2: The target is informed that you were trying to do something undisclosed to him.
3: The target is informed that you were trying to protect him (no protect happens).
4: The target is protected, but if the protect triggers, you die instead.
5: Target is protected.
6: The target is protected and informed that you were trying to protect him.
Also, what does CPR Doc effect mean?
But anyway, I see what you mean now. I was afraid it would be something along the lines of 'Roll d6 to determine whether a given action succeeds'.
Or maybe we should use dice with more sides than 6. I like this 'slightly variable effect' idea.
Post by: Darvi on February 29, 2012, 12:47:26 pm
Post by: Shakerag on February 29, 2012, 12:56:26 pm
Or just some other game mechanic altogether. Like, and I'm just pulling this out of my ass here, say we had a zombie survival Mafia. So there would be scum you're trying to oust, but then most players would have additional abilities like scavenging for food/stuff/barricade material, building barricades, etc. So you'd decide to use a typical mafia-like ability (say investigate) or nail some wood over those windows to keep the zombies out. Or maybe you have multiple actions and choose which to do or something.
Another (very rough) idea I was tossing around is something like a three-phase game. Like, for each "day" there's an adventure stage (maybe something RPG-ish like a dungeon crawl), then a camp phase where "normal" mafia gameplay happens, and some abilities/items you've earned in the prior phase come into play, then a night phase like normal.
I guess I'm not happy unless things are horribly complicated.
Post by: Bookthras on February 29, 2012, 12:57:25 pm
I'd leave veteran RTDers comment on that...
On the idea that it'd go from critical-failure to exceptional success, with a 3 minimal for nominal success, then for a doc it could be:
1: target dies
2: no effect
3: protects; you die if triggered
4: protects; you die if triggered
5: protects; you survive regardless
6: protects against multiple kills that night; you survive
For cop:
1: no result, target told
2: no result
3: result
4: result
5: result, bypass godfather effect
6: result, bypass godfather effect, roleblocks the target
(that last seems too much, maybe only 6 bypasses godfather, but it'd be nice if 5 had another perk then.)
Post by: Dariush on February 29, 2012, 01:00:35 pm
Post by: Toaster on February 29, 2012, 01:01:42 pm
Or just some other game mechanic altogether. Like, and I'm just pulling this out of my ass here, say we had a zombie survival Mafia. So there would be scum you're trying to oust, but then most players would have additional abilities like scavenging for food/stuff/barricade material, building barricades, etc. So you'd decide to use a typical mafia-like ability (say investigate) or nail some wood over those windows to keep the zombies out. Or maybe you have multiple actions and choose which to do or something.
Another (very rough) idea I was tossing around is something like a three-phase game. Like, for each "day" there's an adventure stage (maybe something RPG-ish like a dungeon crawl), then a camp phase where "normal" mafia gameplay happens, and some abilities/items you've earned in the prior phase come into play, then a night phase like normal.
You should check out these two, then:
BYOR: Choices (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=50703.0) The bar standard for insane BYORs.
Mafia Roll to Quest (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91469.0) A neat game that sadly petered out.
OK... then I'm not understanding what rolling a six means. I thought it was "exceptional success", like rolling a 20 in D&D, not "success, but it somehow still sucks."
The standard 6 as I understand it is an "overshoot"- you succeeded at your goal, but with unintended consequences. A 5 is critical success, and 4 is simple success.
Post by: Darvi on February 29, 2012, 01:02:47 pm
Post by: Bookthras on February 29, 2012, 01:04:51 pm
Having the Mafia part and the "other" part more separate.Some of these have been tried. I suggest you peruse the notable games archive.
There was, as I said, one with a RTD game in the flavour, but people seemed not to enjoy it as much, since a "1" at the wrong moment meant flavour could get you killed, which was horrible for your team within the mafia game. But it was lots of fun to read.
There was a full-blown dwarf fortress one too, with a fortress needing to be built, a caravan coming in spring, people needing to dig for ore, craft mugs, tend farms, and complicated stuff like that. Again, lots of fun to read, but the non-mafia stuff got too much in the way of the mafia, leaving people confused and unable to proceed. If I recall correctly, this game didn't finish.
...there may be others I'm forgetting, but none of this crazyness caliber that I know of. Partly because the Chief Nut (Dakarian) left, and partly because they were, sadly, not as successful as I wish they had been.
But I think experimental and overly complicated games are endless fun, myself. ;-)
Post by: Dariush on February 29, 2012, 01:37:49 pm
Like, and I'm just pulling this out of my ass here, say we had a zombie survival Mafia. So there would be scum you're trying to oust, but then most players would have additional abilities like scavenging for food/stuff/barricade material, building barricades, etc. So you'd decide to use a typical mafia-like ability (say investigate) or nail some wood over those windows to keep the zombies out. Or maybe you have multiple actions and choose which to do or something.Damn, now I'll waste several days thinking about all the interesting ways this idea can be improved, post the result in this thread, get shit thrown at me and go sulk in a corner. I hate you.
Edit:
...Actually scratch that, I'll whip something up right now.
I propose a Deathworld-like setting. An outpost on a hostile planet, with several doppelgangers inside. There's only day phase. By default, everyone gathers in a meeting hall. There are cameras inside, so anyone who exits and enters the hall can be seen by everyone. At any point during the day, anybody can do an action (which takes up the rest of the day) after exiting the hall (though they can be accompanied by someone). For starters, there are three base parameters - food and (separate) defence of the two exits to the base. All three function almost exactly the same. Every turn 1 food is substracted for every player alive and a certain amount of health is deducted from both defences. If either drops below 0, town loses. An action consists of either improving or lowering some parameter, with effect depending on the number of participants. People doing an action together may PM each other and, if there's scum among them which consists of at least one third of all participants, they may infect someone with a spore, functioning like an arson (since a normal kill would be too obvious). People remaining in the hall count as being on a mission together.
What do you think, guys?
Post by: Urist McUselessNoble on February 29, 2012, 01:45:03 pm
I've sat down several times and tried to make one of those work, but the ability list always comes up lame and too random to use.
Let's look at cop and doc, for instance:
Cop:
1: No result, and target is told you were trying to inspect them.
2: No result.
3: Result that has a 50% chance to be naive.
4: Result.
5: Result- ignores godfather/miller effects.
6: Result, but target is told they were inspected.
Well, as Dariush points out that's what you get for insisting on using 1d6 as your die roll. You could use any probability distribution you'd care for to cook up the odds. Certainly enough web-based RNGs out there to do so.
I'm with Shake on a three-part game... in principle. It sounds all sorts of awesome to have "construction," "night" and "day" phases. In the first, you build the loot. In the second, somebody steals the loot. In the third, you try to figure out who was stealing the loot. It would also be pretty easy to blur the lines between mafia and third party, because you could add wincons based on the nature and quantity of the loot. And people would have to decide whether to get rid of someone playing for the wrong team but who was great at the construction subgame, and thus made the pie bigger for them to steal.
Post by: Bookthras on February 29, 2012, 02:50:15 pm
IMO not enough variety. Frankly, it simply looks like n%-role.
I don't disagree, but perhaps variety could be improved. I think the biggest obstacle is that there's too high a chance of an unwanted action. As Toaster said earlier, if there's too much of a chance of a negative result, people would be reluctant to even use their actions. If I'm a doctor with a 50% chance of not protecting or outright killing my target, I just won't.
Maybe by dropping that "6=CursedWithAwesome" thing, and maybe using a different die roll as McNoble suggested, percentages can be tweaked so that there's a >50% chance of a nominal, expected, success, a small chance of a catastrophic failure, but also a small chance of so cool a result that the risk is worth it. It'd no longer be true RTD, but still incorporate some of its spirit.
Say something like this for a standard doctor (who doesn't die if successfully protects)
Roll a d20:
1: target dies
2-3: no effect
4-5: protects; you die if triggered
6-15: protects; you survive
16-18: protects target, and target's target; you survive
19: protects target against multiple kills; you survive
20: protects target against multiple kills; if triggered, the attacker dies or is revealed.
(actual size of the die, and effects, can of course be tweaked, here only for illustration)
For an alignment cop, roll a d20:
1: no result, target told
2-3: no result
4-5: result, chance of naive
6-15: result
16-18: result, bypass godfather
19: result, bypass godfather, roleblock target
20: result, bypass godfather, roleblock target only if cross-aligned
With that, the chance of a "better than a normal role" effect is large enough that players would be willing to risk the negative effect of rolling low.
Another important consideration is whether players are told the result of their die roll. So if I am a cop, and am told I rolled a 4, I know my result may be naive, or if I know I rolled a 16+, that godfathers are not immune to my inspect. If the player is not told, then if a doctor's target dies, he won't know whether it was because he rolled a 1 and killed him himself, or merely rolled a 2-3 and his target was actually NK'd. Balance is not my forté, but I think I prefer the player be told their rolls.
I think it sounds like fun.
Post by: Darvi on February 29, 2012, 02:56:43 pm
Also, naïvity should be replaced with insanity.
Post by: Dariush on February 29, 2012, 03:00:54 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 29, 2012, 09:02:52 pm
Although this is clearly just my opinion.
Post by: Toaster on February 29, 2012, 09:52:27 pm
Good in theory, bad in practice.
A mafia-based RTD, on the other hand, might work- but that's a topic for another board.
Post by: TolyK on March 01, 2012, 01:33:57 am
This would be a 3-phase-day, like Shakerag proposed.
Each person has actions for camp and night phase.
Camp (Voting phase):
- People can only (change their) vote when around the campfire. They can only talk to people in their area. They can move places as often as they want around the camp "map". Mafia still get their chat, but they can only vote for where to meet up (during the day). People also have abilities during the day, which are slightly randomized (1-fail, 2-nothing, 3-slight success, 4-full success, 5-full success, 6-full success + something bad).
- During adventure phase, they can choose to either go out adventuring (getting items, killing other folks discreetly, etc.) Here it's basically a freeform mini-RTD.
- During night phase, most of the mafia-related actions happen. The interesting part here is that your roll determines at what time you do your job.
Night example:
- mafioso with a kill.
- doctor with a protect.
- vigilante with a kill.
- cop with an inspect.
mafioso roll (later is better, less chance of a doc protect): 1-10
doctor roll (later is better, less of a chance of a kill afterwards): 1-10
vigilante roll (earlier, since if a doc's protecting they could be down): 1-10
cop roll (later is better, because they might have already done their role): 1-10
Several scenarios:
- mafioso 4 (on A), doctor 5 (on A), vigilante 2 (on B), cop 9 (on vig): A is shot and saved, B is killed, cop knows vig is a vig.
- mafioso 7 (on A), doctor 2 (on B), vigilante 8 (on B), cop 7 (on A): B is killed (after protect), cop and mafioso meet at A's place (mod-defined behavior, like a shoot-out and someone/everyone dies)
- mafioso 1 (on cop), doctor 7 (on cop), vigilante 6 (on maf), cop 4 or 8 (on A): cop is shot turn 1, so can't do his inspect on 4 (if roll was 4), but is revived by cop (on 7) and can do his inspect on 8 (if roll was 8). vigilante kills mafioso turn 6. (Read: very good for town :P)
- etc.
What do you think?
Post by: Powder Miner on March 01, 2012, 01:36:53 am
Post by: TolyK on March 01, 2012, 02:46:44 am
Post by: Dariush on March 01, 2012, 03:30:50 am
I propose a Deathworld-like setting. An outpost on a hostile planet, with several doppelgangers inside. There's only day phase. By default, everyone gathers in a meeting hall. There are cameras inside, so anyone who exits and enters the hall can be seen by everyone. At any point during the day, anybody can do an action (which takes up the rest of the day) after exiting the hall (though they can be accompanied by someone). For starters, there are three base parameters - food and (separate) defence of the two exits to the base. All three function almost exactly the same. Every turn 1 food is substracted for every player alive and a certain amount of health is deducted from both defences. If either drops below 0, town loses. An action consists of either improving or lowering some parameter, with effect depending on the number of participants. People doing an action together may PM each other and, if there's scum among them which consists of at least one third of all participants, they may infect someone with a spore, functioning like an arson (since a normal kill would be too obvious). People remaining in the hall count as being on a mission together.
What do you think, guys?
Post by: TolyK on March 01, 2012, 03:35:54 am
Wait, doppelgangers? You mean aliens or baddies?
But the parameter mechanics would be interesting.
The story is perhaps waiting for a ship to come pick you up?
Post by: Dariush on March 02, 2012, 07:21:54 am
Wait, doppelgangers? You mean aliens or baddies?Baddies, obviously.
The story is perhaps waiting for a ship to come pick you up?Sure, why not.
Post by: Darvi on March 09, 2012, 06:39:21 am
Post by: TolyK on March 12, 2012, 12:03:12 pm
Whoever's up for co-modding just pm me...
Post by: Dr.Phibes on March 13, 2012, 06:50:28 pm
Post by: GlyphGryph on March 13, 2012, 09:36:56 pm
Post by: Orangebottle on March 13, 2012, 09:53:33 pm
You've really outdone yourself this time.
Post by: Dariush on March 14, 2012, 08:05:37 am
I'm a moron! Yay!So true.
Post by: ToonyMan on March 16, 2012, 04:21:45 pm
I had a conversation with Leafsnail a while ago (sometime last year) and last night I was struck with the inability to sleep as a cat tried to devour me. So...
I'm purposely leaving out names or anything significant so that this wouldn't spoil anybody who plans on doing some Fate/thing eventually. This eliminates some cool later stuff but whatever I'm just throwing this out as I think about it.
The supervisor for this HGW (Holy Grail War) lies dead before the game has even started! Which one of was vile enough to break such a huge rule?? The seven masters eye each other in the church on the hill suspiciously, their servants hiding their presence.
Okay so this set-up requires 14 players. That's a lot. I'm not sure how to lessen that really.
Before the game starts every player is assigned a role. Seven become Masters who are pretty much magicians and seven are Servants, magical heroic spirits who support their Master. Servants can hide themselves from detection, only other Servants can tell if one is nearby, but not what class they are. Except for Assassin who other Servants can't even detect.
Every HGW assigns seven different Servant classes. Servant Saber, Archer, Lancer, Rider, Caster, Berserker, and Assassin. Their class just points in the direction of what their abilities are. And Servants themselves are heroic spirits, legendary heroes, people of fame from our timeline.
Anyway with that out of the way let's try to make this a mafia game!
So the supervisor was killed, but who did it? It had to have been one of the Masters to disturb the game right?
Each Master will have their partner Servant that they can PM between each other (let's go with telepathic thoughts) however let's have it that Servants can also post and talk like their Master counterparts. Nobody will know who is a Master or Servant. We'll have the Master's Command Seal hidden instead on their hand (like the inside of their leg or on their back, think Fate/prototype) so you can't identify with a glance who Masters are.
We also can't just have the Masters role-claim who they are. To prevent that every Master will have the wincon to win the HGW, it's just that the culprit who killed the supervisor needs to be eliminated as soon as possible. Also winning the HGW involves incapacitating every other Master, whether that means killing them directly or killing their only hope, their Servant.
Wait, here's an idea. The culprit will have cheated, after killing the supervisor they cheat the game and manage to make their Servant twice or three times as strong, something that the others would have no chance to stand up against. That would make a good reason to eliminate the culprit. Of course after the culprit is eliminated the game would still go on until the HGW was won by someone. At that point it's like a Wizard Mafia I guess?
It would be neat to see the culprit purposely hold back in case their was witnesses I guess.
Anyway, sample game demonstration.
Master 1 has Servant Saber
Master 2 has Servant Assassin
Master 3 has Servant Rider <----Culprit
Master 4 has Servant Archer
Master 5 has Servant Berserker
Master 6 has Servant Caster
Master 7 has Servant Lancer
Master 3 and Rider both know who the supervisor killer is. Rider killed the supervisor himself from Master 3's command after all.
Because of this, Rider's stats have become godlike and only the teamwork of the other Masters could defeat him and his Master. Of course, nobody knows who the culprit is so their goal is going to be to wait it out until they can dominate the rest.
I need to figure out how the Servants stats would work. I'm thinking a simple HP and attack damage thing with some servants getting special abilities. It would require a lot of tweaking to make sure it was somewhat fair though.
And I was thinking that Masters can gather clues on Servant's identifies...hmmm
Random first thought stats:
Saber 10 HP 4 ATK
Archer 6 HP 4 ATK special ability??
Lancer 8 HP 4 ATK BAD LUCK
Rider 6 HP 4 ATK special ability??
Caster 4 HP 2 ATK definitely special abilities
Berserker 12 HP 5 ATK (has intelligence & sanity penalties though)
Assassin 3 HP 4 ATK (need to figure out an effective Master ability)
Of course if Rider was the culprit then his stats would be something like 18 HP and 12 ATK. He'd even be able to kill Berserker in one hit with these stats.
So the culprit will want to eliminate as many people as possible so that their victory was secured. Of course during the Day I'm guessing the Masters (and Servants) will all vote for who they think is the culprit.
The two culprits will definitely need to avoid getting voted because if the culprit Master dies then the Servant will not be able to stick around and if the culprit Servant dies the Master will have no means to even win the HGW.
Well that's that!!!
Post by: Leafsnail on March 16, 2012, 07:35:12 pm
Post by: Dariush on March 17, 2012, 06:57:06 am
Post by: ToonyMan on March 17, 2012, 02:57:25 pm
I've offered an idea with attack and health a couple of months back (in the Dresden Files setting), but it got stomped out of existence. :(Guess it's gone forever then :(
Post by: GlyphGryph on March 17, 2012, 05:19:12 pm
Have we ever even had a VIP game here? I don't remember. Its gonna be fun to run one, especially with the VIP also being publicly known and a kingmaker! :P
Post by: Servant Corps on March 17, 2012, 07:36:57 pm
Post by: GlyphGryph on March 18, 2012, 03:16:16 am
Post by: Servant Corps on March 18, 2012, 02:40:39 pm
On the other hand, it's probably a lot of time to just find a couple players.
Post by: Dariush on March 19, 2012, 07:00:26 am
If we can get a buffer of pre-reserved spots, we should smooth the idea out and make a game.I've offered an idea with attack and health a couple of months back (in the Dresden Files setting), but it got stomped out of existence. :(Guess it's gone forever then :(
Post by: GlyphGryph on March 19, 2012, 12:47:56 pm
I know the xkcd boards have mafia games too, but eh. I hate having to wait, and do signups, and get approval, and get other people to "ok" things, so I've never bothered to host elsewhere. It's EASY here.
If you do run one (after mine is finished :P) I will be more than happy to play in it, though. Wherever you host it.
Post by: webadict on March 19, 2012, 01:05:00 pm
I really don't think the problem is a "lack of activity" so much as many more players than games at the moment. :PWell, it's easy for the people that have been here forever. Trying being a newbie, and you'll have to wait a while. Probably until after you run a BM, or at least played in one or two.
I know the xkcd boards have mafia games too, but eh. I hate having to wait, and do signups, and get approval, and get other people to "ok" things, so I've never bothered to host elsewhere. It's EASY here.
If you do run one (after mine is finished :P) I will be more than happy to play in it, though. Wherever you host it.
Post by: Alexhans on March 30, 2012, 07:52:59 am
Yeah, lack of activity - not really like it was back in the golden days. At least we've got a core group that's pretty reliable.Which are this Golden Days you seem to be referring to? The days when Webadict was known to be scum every game? Or has that already been erased from the annals of history after he self-proclaimed mafia king and squashed all opposition?
Post by: GlyphGryph on March 30, 2012, 08:01:05 am
Post by: Orangebottle on March 30, 2012, 05:37:09 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on March 30, 2012, 05:57:45 pm
Post by: Bookthras on March 30, 2012, 08:47:16 pm
I hope he's fine, and that he'll be back soon. It certainly wouldn't be the same without him.
Post by: Shakerag on April 05, 2012, 11:04:31 am
Basic (rough) idea: You're all a bunch of alchemists from various families. Each family has an element (which is a physical object) they're attuned to, so you've inherited it. Something about a council with a free seat, potential foul play in selection process, gotta find out who's shady. Scum can have any element, but thier element is "tainted" which can only be absolutely determined by processing the element in a specific process which destroys it. And anyone with a destroyed element is out of the running. Flavor background of elements regenerating with time back at your family home or something. Flavor subject to change, but that's not really the important stuff.
Terminology: Class refers to the groupings of four elements under a heading. Path refers to the position an element is at in that class (so, basically, first/second/third/fourth - the orders as they are may very well change, though)
So everyone gets a random element (night ability), a random tool (one-shot), and a random personal ability/trait (auto ability).
Please let me know what you think of this setup, and absolutely feel free to suggest changes/additions/removals in the name of balance/fun/whatever.
-------------------------------------------
elements (night abilities, targeted, can't target self)
ELEMENTAL
air - roleblock
earth - tracker
fire - watcher
water - redirecter
PRIME
life - doctor
death - kill (vig)
matter - knows which one-shot target uses or is targeted by that night (and any untargeted ones used?)
energy - vote stealer (takes effect the next day)
ETHER
clarity - cop (unsure if just scum-finding or role cop in addition)
illusion - deception - target appears as different element for that night
light - target protected from non-kill effects
dark - hide results (target doesn't get much info from actions, people who target that person get reduced results as well)
META-ELEMENTAL
ice - target gets reflect ability for the night
dust - delayer
magma - abduct
steam - target's target is randomized
FORCES
nature - karma
chaos - target's vote is random tomorrow (doesn't show until day end)
gravity - actions on target redirected to user
static - target can't switch vote next day and has to do same night action next night (doing nothing if target no longer is valid)
MENTAL
dominaton - cult (yay)
fear - disable target's auto ability for night
will - target's ability not effected by other abilities
truth - know actions that happened on target, but not by whom
-----------------------
1-shots
combiner - adds effects of target's element to users and applied to that/another target
splitter - two targets
transmuter - change users element
elemental chart - can get (vague) read of elements present (number per class)
elemental wards - nk protection
elemental feedback - PGO
Prism - redirect all actions on self to another target
mana watcher - see counts of elements used at night, but not origin/targets
advanced lab - use ability of different element in same class
mote of rust - destroy one other one-shot
sphere of <class> - nullify all abilities used by that class that night
rod of <path> - nullify all abilities used by that path that night
crystal of <class> - see who used an ability in that class that night (not target)
lens of <path> - see who used an ability in that path that night (not target)
-----------------------------------
autos
sensitive - told if target is from the same class when using night ability
new bloodline - pick your element rather than random assign (before N1)
attuned - told if target is from the same <path> when using night ability
vault - pick your one-shot rather than random assign (before N1)
loyal - can't be converted
<class> immune - immune to abilities of specified class
dim - element not detectable to auto/one-shot abilities (but not night abilities)
gremlins - unaffected by one-shot abilities
elemental net - gain (random) one-shot if someone from same class is lynched
unstable element - if lynched, elements from your class are nullified tonight
<class> master - if you use your night ability, abilities from that class can't be affected that night
alert - know who visited you at night if you don't use an ability
Post by: Dariush on April 05, 2012, 11:20:02 am
So everyone gets a random element (night ability), a random tool (one-shot), and a random personal ability/trait (auto ability).Specifically this. Your whole idea is basically contained in the above sentence, the rest being flavored water.
Post by: TolyK on April 05, 2012, 11:26:27 am
I'd still totally go for the campfire one if my ISP weren't a dick.
Post by: Shakerag on April 05, 2012, 11:41:56 am
I don't see how it's all that complicated. It ends up being about the same, ability-wise, as a BYOR. And Paranormal has about 30-ish initial roles, if I recall.
Post by: TolyK on April 05, 2012, 11:49:33 am
Post by: Leafsnail on April 05, 2012, 02:55:52 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 05, 2012, 03:07:30 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on April 05, 2012, 03:10:22 pm
On random assignment of roles: Would you be running a sanity check on the results? A mafioso getting an extra kill is a very powerful role and would require strong balancing- just ask Meph.
Yeah, if you're randomly assigning roles you REALLY need some sort of weighting for each role/combination to make sure that things don't get out of hand. If you don't, you're quite likely to end up with a set-up that is unwinnable for one side or the other.
Post by: Toaster on April 05, 2012, 03:21:06 pm
Post by: Shakerag on April 05, 2012, 03:28:45 pm
I'd like to see this idea actually get run someday, so any other thoughts on if a particular ability (or combination thereof) is overpowered are certainly welcome. I'd really like to keep the basic setup together because I, at least, like the complexity of it all, but if no one else does ... -_-
PPE: That's a good idea too, Toaster. Either way, I'd certainly eyeball and tweak the results, rather than go pure random.
Post by: Toaster on April 05, 2012, 03:40:29 pm
Post by: webadict on May 03, 2012, 07:26:01 pm
I'm still always scum. I never stopped. Even when I'm town, I'm scum.Yeah, lack of activity - not really like it was back in the golden days. At least we've got a core group that's pretty reliable.Which are this Golden Days you seem to be referring to? The days when Webadict was known to be scum every game? Or has that already been erased from the annals of history after he self-proclaimed mafia king and squashed all opposition?
Besides, I have to deal with one of these two every game:
Webadict has been killed.
Webadict was The Only Power Role In The Game That Could Prevent Rather Specific Mafia Role From Winning.
It is now Day 1.
or
Webadict has been killed.
Webadict was Clearly Scum For Not Dying Night 0.
It is now Day 2.
Post by: Phantom of The Library on May 06, 2012, 10:25:02 pm
Post by: Supercharazad on May 20, 2012, 06:16:19 am
It's the same as normal mafia other than that.
So, as an example:
It is now Day 1.
Suddenly, a stone tablet falls from the sky! It reads "Thou shalt vote in purple"
So, after that, everyone would have to vote in purple instead of red.
Here's a few more I thought of:
No more spaces
Voting in [colour]
FoSing in [colour]
Hammer [removed or readded]
No posts with over [number from 150-500] characters
Day/Night [Shortened or lengthened] by [12-24] hours
Any suggestions to make this better?
Post by: TolyK on May 20, 2012, 06:38:02 am
However it seems like a semi-sane idea. Along with changing roles? :P
Post by: Dariush on May 20, 2012, 07:35:59 am
No more spacesHellno.Doyouactuallythinkwhenyouproposesomething?
Voting in [colour]No. Pointless.
FoSing in [colour]No. Pointless.
Hammer [removed or readded]Uh... well, maybe.
No posts with over [number from 150-500] charactersNo. People will simply split stuff.
Day/Night [Shortened or lengthened] by [12-24] hoursNo. People will still extend/shorten at need.
Any suggestions to make this better?Yes. Do not do this.
Post by: Leafsnail on May 20, 2012, 12:34:50 pm
Post by: Supercharazad on May 20, 2012, 12:38:11 pm
Post by: Dariush on May 20, 2012, 01:48:02 pm
Well, they were only examples of possible laws that could be added. What laws would you suggest?Just off the top of my head:
He who gets lynched this day loses regardless of whether his team wins in the end.
Every vote on every person is offset down the list of players by the number of players already voting this person.
He who gets lynched this day flips and resurrects.
The guy with the largest/smallest number of posts this day dies.
Everybody who votes the guy who gets lynched gets flipped at the end of the day (but doesn't die).
Edits are allowed for one day.
He who would normally get lynched instead dies next morning and can be saved (optionally flips immediatly).
Everyone can use purple font to select a guy who will get flipped but not die at the end of the day.
Post by: TolyK on May 20, 2012, 02:00:50 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on May 20, 2012, 02:14:41 pm
He who gets lynched this day loses regardless of whether his team wins in the end.Could be interesting.
Every vote on every person is offset down the list of players by the number of players already voting this person.Sounds like a headache. Some coordination would be needed to actually lynch anyone.
He who gets lynched this day flips and resurrects.Confirmed townie. Bad.
The guy with the largest/smallest number of posts this day dies.Either a spam fest or activity death.
Everybody who votes the guy who gets lynched gets flipped at the end of the day (but doesn't die).Instant gamebreaker. Bad.
Edits are allowed for one day.I'd lynch anyone who edited their post since there's no reason for a non-mafia to do it. I guess it wouldn't be bad though.
He who would normally get lynched instead dies next morning and can be saved (optionally flips immediatly).If flips immediately then confirmed townie, bad. Otherwise ok I guess as long as the mafia has no doc.
Everyone can use purple font to select a guy who will get flipped but not die at the end of the day.Confirmed townie bad.
Post by: Dariush on May 21, 2012, 06:33:25 am
Post by: Mephansteras on May 21, 2012, 11:49:06 am
Post by: Supercharazad on May 21, 2012, 04:13:18 pm
Mafia can recruit townies (one per night, along with NK)
Every day a law is picked randomly from the big list
No confirmed townies, because of cult scum.
Post by: Dariush on May 22, 2012, 03:28:34 am
Post by: TolyK on May 22, 2012, 07:32:29 am
And possibly have a 3rd-party that converts folks to scum, not the scum themselves, that wins with scum?
Post by: Toaster on May 22, 2012, 07:56:55 am
For moar goodness, make cultists not know each other identity, be able to recruit two people per night and have an unconvertable town role that can convert them back.
So when someone gets unconverted they can nark out all the other mafia?
Post by: Leafsnail on May 22, 2012, 08:17:32 am
Post by: Dariush on May 22, 2012, 10:29:04 am
Dariush is suggesting the cultists wouldn't know each other. I don't think I like that idea though since it means they aren't really meaningfully different to townies (they have no kill and no idea who they should be helping).Then we can allow the cult leader to contact them.
Post by: Supercharazad on May 22, 2012, 10:57:10 am
Three way mafia with recruiting, rule changes and crazyness. New recruits once they are deconverted are bound by the rules to never reveal the names of the scum (they "forget" all that happened"). That prevents them from just destroying the scum easily with a deconvert.
Post by: Leafsnail on May 22, 2012, 02:54:10 pm
Then we can allow the cult leader to contact them.Anonymously, right*? That could be quite interesting. Personally I'd allow the cult leader to choose which rule will come up next because that seems to be a lot funnier.
*I'm imagining you send a pm to the mod who sends it to the cult member - that way you wouldn't be able to work it out from timezones.
Post by: Dariush on May 23, 2012, 01:48:00 am
Hmm. As an idea, what if they had two "factions" of scum, and town? The two factions don't know who they are, but can NK eachother. Town wins if both of them die, if a flip happens then they become randomly one of the factions or town if theyre in the factions, each faction gets one Nk and one recruit per night, each day a new law appears.Waaaaaay too skewed in the scum's favor.
Three way mafia with recruiting, rule changes and crazyness. New recruits once they are deconverted are bound by the rules to never reveal the names of the scum (they "forget" all that happened"). That prevents them from just destroying the scum easily with a deconvert.No, just no. What's the point of having a deconverted town who knows the scum identity and can't do shit about that? (that was a rhetorical question, BTW. 'just no' still applies)
Actually, I was thinking about non-anonymous informing (i.e. first-person). That way the leader has to consider who is likely to get deconverted and has to decide whose else identity to reveal (again, risking the guy being deconverted).Then we can allow the cult leader to contact them.Anonymously, right*? That could be quite interesting. Personally I'd allow the cult leader to choose which rule will come up next because that seems to be a lot funnier.
*I'm imagining you send a pm to the mod who sends it to the cult member - that way you wouldn't be able to work it out from timezones.
Though I like that bit about leader picking the law, though it seems kinda skewed in scum's favor.
Post by: Leafsnail on May 23, 2012, 06:50:46 am
Post by: Dariush on May 23, 2012, 07:54:25 am
As a cult leader you would never ever want to pm anyone. As lone scum who has to survive you just can't take risks like that.Actually, that's not true. The most obvious case: a cultist A is attacking another cultist B (neither know other's identity) and the leader knows that B is a power role. Wouldn't it be a pretty good idea to PM A and inform him about B's culticity?
Post by: Leafsnail on May 23, 2012, 08:32:27 am
Post by: Dariush on May 23, 2012, 09:16:41 am
Post by: Dariush on May 23, 2012, 11:35:03 am
Scum don't know each other's identity and don't have a QT. However, each of them may send one message at the beginning of the game to every other scum via the mod. Cryptographic posts and hidden messages ahoy.
Post by: TolyK on May 23, 2012, 12:04:55 pm
Encryption mafia, where the mafia get an initial key and/or transposition method or something and every post is required to have a 50-to-100-symbol thing at the end.
Post by: Dariush on May 23, 2012, 12:18:07 pm
Post by: Dariush on June 03, 2012, 02:04:24 pm
Instead of traditional teams, players are separated into 'levels', let's say four of them. One player starts on level 4, two on level 3, everyone else on level 1. Level 1 is town, no special powers. Level 2 is power role, every night can either inspect or vig someone. Level 3 is cult-like scum, every night has an NK. Level 4 is... let's say God, who has a survivor wincon and can either inspect, vig or NK someone (bear with me). Lynches and viggings, instead of outright killing someone, instead lower their level by one. NKs raise them by one. Anybody with either 0th or 5th level dies.
Well, the above was rather haphazard, since I am in a hurry and didn't want to delay this to tomorrow. The amount of levels, their properties and ways to move between them aren't solid, but the main idea is: people can move between levels and switch wincons and gain different abilities depending on their current level. Opinions are welcome.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 03, 2012, 02:12:22 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 03, 2012, 03:52:17 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 03, 2012, 05:21:52 pm
I'd say if you just made it so that once you're at level 3 an attempt to lower it kills you would fix the biggest problem. That way the level 3s become an interesting kind of limited cult (limited because their recruit is less reliable and will power up people who are level 1).
The other thing to bear in mind is that a cultist turning to level 4 is potentially problematic, but in practice only the cultists would want to raise anyone's level anyway. Just make sure the cultists can't raise their own levels. The "level 5 results in death" is kindof interesting since it means the cult can kill the survivor.
Some abilities might be able to change level by more than one level.This would be cool too. Give a "raise by two levels" to a town role and it's a really risky vig. If you hit scum, you kill them, but if you hit a townie you make them into a cultist(!) or survivor. Basically only fire if you're absolutely sure. I'm not sure if you'd want to do something special for level 6.
Post by: Dariush on June 04, 2012, 04:59:14 am
Also, what will freshly-made level 2 do after being 'killed'? Will he immediatly claim and get lynched, turning him into level 1 to deny the scum a potential recruit?
And one final thing. If scum die by getting lynched, there's no point in raise-by-two-levels ability - it adds more risk (level 1 turning into scum), but no additional profit.
Meanwhile, during the last night I've thought of an alternate version of this setup that completely scraps town/scum division:
5 levels, each starts with two players, everyone's goal is to get over half of living players into his level. Additionally level 1 has a survivor wincon. Levels -1, 0 and 6 kill. Everyone except level 1ers know their teammates. If a level has an ability, everyone on the level can separately use this ability in the same night on different people. Nobody can do anything to his teammates.
Level 1: No abilities.
Level 2: Can uplevel by one.
Level 3: Can inspect.
Level 4: Can downlevel by one.
Level 5: Can downlevel by two.
During the day, everyone can vote either to bring someone up one level or down one level. To prevent everyone fullclaiming and congregating into the same team, a rule: if a player gets converted into the team that wins on the night of his conversion due to his conversion, he loses instead.
Post by: Toaster on June 04, 2012, 12:29:05 pm
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 26, 2012, 12:34:42 pm
I think I'm pretty close to having the rules set in stone by this point, with the clarifications I'm going to add from the most recent game, and I'm just wondering if there's anything else I'm missing.
Post by: Dariush on June 26, 2012, 01:11:16 pm
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 26, 2012, 01:45:42 pm
Post by: Dariush on July 24, 2012, 03:20:35 am
Post by: Phantom of The Library on July 24, 2012, 11:55:23 am
Post by: Hapah on July 24, 2012, 12:36:54 pm
Post by: webadict on July 28, 2012, 04:13:07 pm
Post by: TolyK on July 30, 2012, 12:07:46 pm
Post by: Dariush on August 06, 2012, 10:44:52 am
Post by: Bookthras on August 21, 2012, 01:59:25 am
a) knowledge: I'm a doctor, I protected someone, do I know if they were attacked? Do they know if a kill on them failed thanks to my protection? Likewise, if I'm an Enforcer (vig) do I know if my kill succeeded or failed due to a protection or some other reason? Attempted rebel/imperial persuasions don't know if they succeed ("I'll think about it"), but cybrid conversions are guaranteed success unless prevented, yes? An investigation returns "failed" if player was blocked or target was cybrid, but other blocked actions know their failure was due to a block, yes?
b) conversions: there are two flavours in this game: imperials and rebels persuading each other of the righteousness of their cause; or a cybrid invasively replacing their brain with a cybrid brain. I think a doctor or guard can't prevent the first (a conversation), but should be able to prevent the second (essentially a kill, removing their brain and switching allegiances). Does this sound fair?
c) faction kill: rebels do not get a faction NK. Cybrids do, but a given player can only perform one action per night (i.e., same cybrid cannot convert and kill). Any cybrid convert gains access to the cybrid chat of his maker. A cybrid metagen SK gets his own nightly kill, which he must keep secret from other cybrids (as he also wants them dead).
Rules & Roles post, taken mostly from Cybrid V (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=111041.msg3351055#msg3351055): Please say if it's ready for prime time or propose fixes where necessary.
Imperials
Win Condition: Imperials win if the cybrid threat is eliminated, they outnumber the rebels, and the rebels have no kill roles remaining.
Guaranteed Officer: Imperial Commander - Receives reports from other Officers. Has access to Imperial quick chat, and can invite others at any time. This cannot be undone. Also has access to the Overseer's announcement system to talk during the night. Commanders can not be persuaded.
Imperial Officer: Has a role from the list below. Name is known to Commander, and can report actions. If converted by a cybrid they can submit false reports. Imperial Officers can not be persuaded by rebels.
Enforcer - May commit nightkills.
Speaker - Converts another player to the imperial alliance unless they are cybrid or an officer/commander. Uninformed of success or failure.
Investigator - Investigates players. Results are Imperial, Rebel, Unknown(if the ability fails, targets a neutral/third party, or targets a cybrid).
Rebels
Win Condition: Rebels win if the cybrid threat is eliminated, they outnumber the imperials, and the imperials have no kill roles remaining.
Guaranteed Officer: Rebel Commander - Counts as a Rebel Officer, can also have one of the roles below. Has access to Rebel quick chat, and can invite others at any time. This cannot be undone.
Rebel Officer - Has a role from the list below. Name is not known to Rebel Commander, and cannnot report actions. Officers are immune to Imperial conversion attempts.
Organizer - If a fellow rebel uses an ability on them, he learns the identity of that rebel and has the ability to cancel the action.
Saboteur - Roleblocker (target can not use any abilities that night or the following day).
Persuader - Converts another player to the rebel alliance unless they are cybrid or an Officer. Uninformed of success or failure.
Informant - Investigates players. Results are Imperial, Rebel, Unknown (if the ability fails or targets a cybrid).
Martyr - Has a single day or night kill. Dies in the process when used, on account of it being a bomb.
Snowman - Has access to the Overseer's announcement system.
Additional Roles (May be Rebel or Imperial, may be combined with other roles):
Guard - May simultaneously Protect/Roleblock another player by saying GUARD Player (bolded) in main thread during the day. A guarded player is unaffected by lynches, kills or conversions and may not take actions. This effect lasts until this player specifically says UNGUARD in thread during the day, or as a night action send a PM ending the guard. It also ends if they are roleblocked, or if the ability is ended by outside forces (for example: death).
Doctor - Protects a player from night kills, and cybrid conversions. Doctors will be informed if they saved a person's life.
Companion - Protects a player from persuasion attempts (from rebel/imperial only).
Weak - Combo-role. This player dies if the cybrid attempt to convert him. Parasites will be killed, but machinators will not lose the brain they used.
Healthy - Combo-role. This player can survive through a single kill or cybrid conversion attempt, but not a lynch.
Soldier/Civilian - A vanilla imperial or rebel, these roles have no real power beyond their voices.
Cybrid Sympathizer - An unhinged invidual who supports the cybrid cause, and counts towards a cybrid faction victory (not metagen). He wins if at least one faction cybrid survives to game end and wins - but not in cases where everyone dies (a win condition for normal cybrids). This player still counts as a rebel/imperial when inspected, based on their current superficial alignment, and may have rebel/imperial roles.
Cybrids
Win Condition: Except where noted below, Cybrids win when all remaning players are aligned with a cybrid victory, and all metagens have been exterminated.
Cybrid roles: A cybrid role will be "randomly" chosen from a subset of cybrid roles upon a successful creation or conversion.
Machinator//Infiltrator - The only one capable of creating more cybrids. He has three positronic brains he can use to create another cybrid. One of those three will create a Metagen (unaligned cybrid).
Inquisitor//Analyzer - Capable of detecting a target's sympathies and abilities. The inquisitor//analyzer will not only reveal a player's alignment, but their entire role - including if they are weak or not.
Inquisitor//Duplicator - May see the full role of any killed player. Whenever a player dies, may gain one of that player's abilities. May only have one duplicated ability at a time, and must choose to gain the ability during or immediately after the phase in which the player died. If a Duplicator is created due to a conversion, it may choose to duplicate an ability from that player's original role.
Hunter//Killer - Has a night kill.
Machinator//Ghost - Capable of using the Overseer's intercom system.
Hunter//Goad - Immune to actions from other players.
Machinator//Parasite - You may convert another player into a Machinator//Parasite. You are killed.
Redactor//Reprogrammer - Each day, may repogram another cybrid unit to randomly change their role. If this is attempted against a metagen, his existance is revealed and the unit is destroyed. [salvaged from Cybrid I]
Metagen//Traitor - Survivor. Does not count as scum for Imperial/Rebel win conditions. Wins if the game ends with a human victory and he is still alive. May be paired with another cybrid role.
Metagen//Defective - Serial killer. Can execute an independent nightly kill. Wins only if it is the last entity standing. May be paired with another cybrid role.
Additional Rules:
Action type order:
Chat invites (free action) -> Guards (day thread action or night PM) -> Blocks -> Protects -> Investigates -> Converts -> Kills
Actions occur simultaneously except in situations, like converts, where order matters, in which case order will be random.
Blocks against blockers do not block blocks.
Players can have several role attributes. Some, like Healthy, Weak, and Rebel Commander will always have another role attached to them. Several other compound roles are possible for balance purposes.
The Cybrids have a standard mafia night kill they can use in place of their regular action (with the exceptions of passive or use whenever actions like the Duplicator, Goad, and Ghost). If an aligned Hunter/Killer uses a standard night kill, it becomes a double kill (or if there's another cybrid around, they can target two people.)
Imperial Officers MUST say via PM to the Mod the results they would like to report to the Imperial Commander, in the format "I (verbed) (player) and he/she is (imperial/cybrid/rebel/dead/blocked)." If they do not, their true report will be sent, none if none exist.
Speakers and Persuaders can convert each other (if not officers). If they do, the other player becomes a Speaker/Persuader, as appropriate, rather than maintaining their original roles. (Whatever they do, they do it with full passion!) Converting a sympathizer will change his superficial alignment (how he appears on investigates) but will not change his sympathizer status or win conditions.
PMs between players are NOT allowed. Any communication, like sending chat invites and reporting results, must go through the Mod. So do NOT send them to your intended recipient: send them to ME, along with instructions on who I should pass it to.
That's the end of the rules & roles post. I'm ready to host this game as soon as I'm satisfied that the above has been discussed and reviewed to a balanced and workable state.
For Earth!
Post by: ToonyMan on August 21, 2012, 02:55:11 am
Post by: Hapah on August 21, 2012, 01:21:54 pm
Doctor:" Patient 14 had 7 gunshot wounds, 3rd degree burns on 40% of his body, and I had to amputate the left arm at the elbow. This guy really needs to quit bumping into doors. They're dangerous!"
Post by: Leafsnail on August 21, 2012, 02:05:30 pm
Post by: Dariush on September 21, 2012, 06:24:58 am
Post by: zombie urist on September 21, 2012, 11:28:25 am
Post by: IronyOwl on September 21, 2012, 08:28:20 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on September 21, 2012, 11:28:37 pm
Post by: Think0028 on September 22, 2012, 12:52:03 am
THAT would be one hell of a meta-game.
Post by: Dariush on September 22, 2012, 03:17:18 am
I win if I spend an entire day posting in-character as Team Rocket.Too OP.
I win if I replace in for myself.Sure why not. Hope you like losing.
THAT would be one hell of a meta-game.
Post by: IronyOwl on September 22, 2012, 04:03:26 am
Post by: TolyK on September 22, 2012, 11:13:43 am
:P
Post by: Mephansteras on October 04, 2012, 07:34:25 pm
It's going to be a Bang! style game rather than a Mafia game, although the two are related game types.
In Bang! you have a Sheriff who is known to everyone. Roughly half the remaining players want him alive and the other half want him dead.
The tricky part is that no one knows anyone else's alignment.
Rather than lynches, each player has a certain amount of hit points. Players Attack and Defend one another, trying to eliminate the competition while not hitting their own people.
Since Attacking the Sheriff is a way to mark yourself as obviously against him (And thus an obvious target for everyone to shoot), people tend to wait until they think they have an upper hand before targeting him.
The actual game of Bang! is done with a deck of cards and has lots of randomness and special abilities. I'll try to keep that flavor a bit while making it doable for a forum game.
So, on to my variant:
The Battle of Iron Hill
The Players are the Prince and his Bodyguards in the middle of a gigantic battle. A heavy fog has obscured the area and turned everything into chaos.
With no one able to see what's going on with the Prince, some of his Bodyguard have turned against him. They are secretly Traitors working for another Kingdom and are under orders to slay the Prince for a very hefty sum of money!
Much of the Bodyguard is still Loyal, of course, and fight to protect him. But they have no way of knowing which of the others accepted this foul bargain and which rejected it.
There may also be an opportunistic Blood Relative of the Prince there who sees his death as a chance to move up in the order of succession. But he'll have to be the last one standing in order to reap the rewards, as the Traitors will kill him if the Prince falls and the Loyal Guards will kill him if he Turns on the Prince. And if the Prince lives with him appearing loyal, well, he's still lost since he's no better off.
Mechanics:
Each player gets Two Actions each turn: An Attack and a Defend. Once all players have used all of their actions or Passed, a new Turn starts.
Attacks attempt to deal 1 point of Damage to another player
Defends prevent 1 point of Damage to any player (Including the Player using the Defend)
This basic combat mechanic should make it so that the Traitors need to kill off a few of the Loyal Guards before they can actually target the Prince himself, since otherwise they'll all just block those shots.
Since we deal with different time zones, actions are going to be resolved on an order basis of the Player's actions, rather than time. So if you have not used either of your actions and want to block a shot that someone declared, you have to declare your block before you declare your attack.
Obviously, if someone else has blocked that attack before you post yours it's not necessary.
This is to prevent everyone from declaring their attacks and then deciding on blocks after the fact.
Possible special Roles/Sub Roles
Swordsman - May Attack Twice instead of Defending
Shieldman - May Defend Twice instead of Attacking
Crossbowman - May make an Unbockable Attack, but may not Defend that Turn
Stalwart - Has an Additional Hit Point
Blademaster - May make Two Attacks, Two Defends, or One of Each. Has -1 Hit Points
These are just my rough thoughts on the game. I'm still working on the math and simulated games, so there is lots of room for stuff to change. But I *think* this layout is workable.
Thoughts?
Post by: Hapah on October 04, 2012, 11:58:17 pm
Regarding balance: What would approx. team ratios be? Scum crossbowman worry me a bit, if they're close to even. His attack on the Prince can't be blocked, no heals...even if town focus fire the crossbowman, it looks like he's liable to take a fair chunk of the Prince down with him if the numbers are about equal.
Post by: Mephansteras on October 05, 2012, 01:04:50 am
And, yeah, not looking to start anything at the moment. Just prepping my next game.
Post by: Dariush on October 05, 2012, 04:01:46 am
tl;drYes.
Thoughts?
Post by: MrCelt on October 27, 2012, 02:55:52 pm
Vigilantes have a night meeting where they talk together - eventually shooting one person. - Vigilante group would consist of:
Detective - Finds out the person's role
Priest - Can't kill, or assist in killing, but converts mafia roles into village equivalent.
Jailer - Jails person, blocking their night action, stopping them being killed. can also choose to kill them.
And, The Mafia sided group'd consist of:(With (THIS) being it when converted by priest)
Hooker (Doctor) - Blocks night action of those visited & Prevents from death/conversion.
Corrupt Cop (Detective) - Follows person through the night and sees alignment
Interrogator (Jailer) - Jails person, blocking their night action, stopping them being killed. can also choose to kill them.
Shrink (Priest) - Prevents person from conversion, can decide to self-shrink.
et cetera
Opinions? - Town wins only when all mafia are killed, mafia wins only when all town are killed
Post by: TolyK on October 27, 2012, 03:54:31 pm
It seems like something interesting, yet unbalanced and such. :P
Post by: zombie urist on October 27, 2012, 03:58:14 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 27, 2012, 04:13:28 pm
Post by: TolyK on October 27, 2012, 04:20:32 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on November 28, 2012, 10:22:41 pm
1. 7 town 2 mafia members mountainous is heavily scumsided. Current data seems to indicate that 11 town 2 mafia members is closer to balanced (but it's also horrifyingly boring I mean goddamn).
2. The fact that you want a setup which is based on the daygame doesn't mean the game has to have no interesting mechanics.
So I propose we diversify into more interesting open setups. One which has caught my eye is Masons and Mafia (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Masons_and_Mafia).
The setup:
13 players, no nights.
4 mafia members (are informed who each other are but have no chat, this is important)
4 masons (again, no chat)
5 townies
Mafia members win if they make up at least half of the players in the game.
Townies win if all mafia members are dead.
The mafia can't kill at night because there's no night, but instead they have another ability. At any time any mafia member can send in a daykill action against a town player. If that player is a mason, they are killed. However, if that player is a townie then the mafia member dies instead.
The advantages of this setup:
- Still based on identifying scummy behaviour and lynching correctly using the daygame
- No nights means that activity doesn't drain away after a long one
- Things can actually happen in the day sometimes which is nice
- Each role has something interesting to be doing
- Good town players aren't doomed to die in the night early
How about it?
Post by: Toaster on November 28, 2012, 10:34:35 pm
Couple questions- is the mafia daykill one per day per player, or can a successful killer try again that same day? Hammer, semi-hammer, or deadline? Much as it was in Prince's Guard, the time is much less important with no night.
As an aside, this game could be run with no moderation other than role randomization and PM distribution, much like Vengeful.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 28, 2012, 10:55:48 pm
Usually in nightless setups no-lynch isn't an option, and a tie in the votes results in something bad happening (like a mafia member being allowed to privately break the tie). This would be to stop the town stalling indefinitely. I'd prefer to run this game on semi-hammers with a fairly generous deadline (a week maybe) to see how it works out.
You could run it without moderation, but then there'd be an issue of masons knowing who killed them. Could cause some problems...
Post by: Toaster on November 28, 2012, 11:55:10 pm
Post by: Dariush on November 29, 2012, 09:13:07 am
Post by: Toaster on November 29, 2012, 09:26:48 am
Post by: Dariush on November 29, 2012, 09:37:51 am
Also, I just thought of something interesting. Take a set of roles - Tarot, for example (this was my initial ideas), maybe a bit more than there are players. Write up roles for them, post the roles in OP. Then randomly distribute known unique roles between players. This should provide an interesting take on massclaims.
Post by: Toaster on November 29, 2012, 09:42:14 am
Post by: Tiruin on November 29, 2012, 09:45:43 am
Try it Toaster.
Post by: Dariush on November 29, 2012, 09:52:00 am
Post by: Leafsnail on November 29, 2012, 10:30:36 am
The problem with smalltown is that it's very role based. The town would spend a lot of its time planning actions.
I'm too lazy to think about the details, but there is no outstanding bullshit, so I'm all for it. Pre-in. If it crashes and burns, so be it.It is fairly tried and tested, with a roughly 50/50 win record so far.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 29, 2012, 11:08:52 am
- If a daykill happens (either a successful one on a mason or a backfire on a mafia member) the votecount will be reset and the deadline will be moved to a week after the daykill. I don't want near-deadline kill shenanigans.
- Actions will be resolved in the order they were received, regardless of when the mod gets online. So if a mafia member submits a daykill before a hammer vote is placed the daykill resolves first, and vice versa.
- Deadlines will be strict. There probably won't be a modpost right on the deadline but any votes/ unvotes made after the deadline will not count. This allows mafia members to ninja the vote so hammering is probably preferable for the town.
- A mafia member may submit an ordered list of kills in one PM if they so wish (obviously if any kill on that list fails they don't get to make the attempts afterwards).
Post by: Dariush on November 29, 2012, 12:21:06 pm
It is fairly tried and tested, with a roughly 50/50 win record so far.
Fuck I'm blind.
Also, why the odd decision to make week-long days? I didn't read the thread too thoroughly, but the entire game took ten days.
Post by: Toaster on November 29, 2012, 12:23:12 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on November 29, 2012, 12:40:50 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 21, 2013, 06:41:16 pm
Here's the set-up for Elemental Mafia, or, because it has nothing to do with organised crime, just ELEMENTS
The set up:
Elements is a mafia-like game for five players. Each player plays an element secretly assigned to them: fire, air, water, earth and wood. Each element is naturally allied with two other elements and is enemy with two other elements. A player wins when both their enemies are dead. It is mafia-like because roles are only revealed upon death. In a way, each person is both scum and town.
The allegiances are as you'd expect:
Fire is allied with Air and Earth, enemy to Water and Wood.
Air is allied with Fire and Water, enemy to Earth and Wood.
Water is allied with Air and Wood, enemy to Fire and Earth.
Wood is allied with Water and Earth, enemy to Air and Fire.
Earth is allied with Wood and Fire, enemy to Water and Air.
Each day each player must choose to Eliminate one other player and also Protect one other player (not themselves). These actions are performed publicly, no PMing is allowed. This encourages the players to spend their time seeking alliances. The day ends when ALL the players have assigned both an attacking and a defending action, and one person has more kills-minus-protects against them than any other player. You only find out what element another player is after they've been killed. Play proceeds in this manner until someone has one. It is possible for the game to end in a draw- in which case everyone loses.
Discussion of the set up:
This game is potentially shorter than regular mafia: although the days have no set length, the game ends after only two to four lynches. There is no night phase.
A simple diagram could be drawn of the alliances and oppositions, and pasted in the OP for the game.
It has a low intensity workload for the mod: there are no nights, the thread need never be locked and there are only five players to keep track of. All they need do is give out the five roles and say who was what role when they die.
In contrast to regular mafia, as players need to protect as well as kill, the game encourages alliance building. The mechanic of roles being revealed only upon death encourages alliance breaking. The tension between the two should be fun. I'm sure when Water learns that they've probably allied themselves with Fire, they'll have to make a good excuse to break off that alliance.
I thought about allowing private messaging, but that would mean less activity in the main thread. What do people think?
I don't think lurking would be a major problem as inactive players could be replaced out. Also, it should be quite fast paced as the lynch happens when everyone has made their vote.
Should votes reset upon death? It would force players to actively make the decision to keep or break their alliances.
If the game is considered successful, the format could be repeated with variations such as unique elemental roles.
Wood was decided as the fifth element, above metal or void or what have you, as it worked well for the series of oppositions and attractions. Unlike the Chinese, I don't think Earth and Wood are naturally opposed unless you think of Earth as more like Stone.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 21, 2013, 06:52:28 pm
Now, this won't make for a stalemate Day 1, necessarily, but it would have a drastic effect on the game since role-flips wouldn't really be the main issue. The game would then become all about negotiations and alliances as people try to co-ordinate with their allies without letting their enemies know who to target for the kill.
Once a Lynch was decided upon, you then end up with a bad problem.
Let's say Earth get's lynched. You now have:
Fire Allied with just Air, Enemy of Water and Wood
Air Allied with Fire and Water, Enemy is just Wood
Water Allied with Air and Wood, Enemy is just Fire
Wood allied with just Water, Enemy is Air and Fire.
Air and Water can just protect each other and kill off Wood and Fire respectively, leaving the two of them the uncontested winners of the game.
Fire and Wood could protect one another, but of course they each want the other to die, so that's not all that likely.
Hmm...hard to say how it'd turn out. From a negotiations standpoint it'd be interesting, especially if Fire and Wood did protect each other, since the next day's voting would be interesting indeed. Still has a nasty habit of getting into a stalemate if you only have 4 players left, though.
Maybe add in a special power for each element to help break things up? You already have Kill and Protect covered, but things like Block, Redirect, and the like could be interesting. Especially if doing so requires that the player NOT use one of the two common powers.
Post by: notquitethere on March 21, 2013, 07:18:09 pm
Possible roles which incentivise deception:
Earth: its Kill vote can really be a Protect
Fire: its Protect vote can really be a Kill
Air: can chose not to have its Protect count towards the vote total
Water: can choose not to have its Kill count towards the vote total
Wood: can choose for its Kill and Protect votes to be considered switched around
Extra work for the mod, but so long as activity temporarily ceased when the last person cast their vote each round, it would be okay.
Post by: Mephansteras on March 21, 2013, 07:25:04 pm
Like you said, it'd depend a bit on how the people playing ended up using the abilities, but I think those powers should help a good bit in preventing a mass claim. You don't want to give up all your advantages, after all.
Post by: notquitethere on March 21, 2013, 07:32:29 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on March 21, 2013, 08:34:21 pm
It could still work as a kind of negotiation game. I'd say though that:
- PMs are probably needed. It'd be very, very hard to organize any kind of backstabs or alliances if you had to announce everything publicly in-thread. In fact I can't think of many reasons why you'd want to post in the thread at all really.
- Deception in the actions are needed. I'd be tempted to just make the actions private until the day ends.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 21, 2013, 08:37:22 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 22, 2013, 02:45:59 am
Post by: notquitethere on March 22, 2013, 09:10:14 am
But even with the roles, you still don't think there'd be an incentive not to claim, Leafsnail?
Post by: Leafsnail on March 22, 2013, 01:36:43 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 22, 2013, 01:57:58 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on March 22, 2013, 02:02:10 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 22, 2013, 02:22:43 pm
At the end of the day, you'd only really see what would happen if you run it. Of course, you could start off the game with someone already dead and have it be four player, but I'm not sure that would be as fun. Alternatively, it could be scaled up to seven player- each with two allies and three enemies.
Post by: Toaster on March 22, 2013, 02:52:29 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on March 22, 2013, 02:54:48 pm
You just about need a sixth player who has a separate wincon than everyone else. Problem there then is said person is screwed come massclaim.
Hmm...maybe. What if they win on a tie situation that normally results in everyone losing? That makes them a minor target for everyone else most of the time and gives them a very interesting position to work for that's at odds with everyone else but still needs to use the same mechanics.
Post by: notquitethere on March 22, 2013, 04:06:28 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on March 23, 2013, 09:31:23 am
Post by: notquitethere on March 23, 2013, 10:12:26 am
Post by: Toaster on March 23, 2013, 10:28:38 am
Post by: TolyK on March 23, 2013, 11:55:01 am
I'm not sure I can classify the second variant of it as "mafia" though, since there are "team" cards which determine with who you win, even if the Mafia cards are on different teams (since people only know what team they are on).
What's that called/close to, then?
Post by: Captain Ford on March 24, 2013, 10:50:35 am
Games with alliance-building aren't terribly fun when all the players are essentially equal and nobody is in the open for players to make decisions on. I once played a game of Twilight Imperium that lasted 3.1 days (IRL) and that turned out to be a ton of fun. I won in the end by taking a huge risk to grab up the territory I needed to win. Since I went last in the turn order (ironically, if everyone wasn't refusing to trade with me, that wouldn't have been the case), nobody could stop me. It was an immensely satisfying victory.
But what I wanted to talk about was the numerous backroom deals when players would take each other aside and talk in private. The balance of power shifted often on these deals. When one player got too powerful, the others would unite to take them down a peg. I only won because I came up with a cunning plan and blindsided everybody before they could react.
Basically, my point was that you don't get this kind of scheming and alliance-making unless the players are unequal in some way. It also gives you some latitude with regards to balance, since anyone who is perceived as more powerful will get wailed on by everybody else (I would know).
The problem with a game where everyone's equal mechanically is that it basically comes down to a popularity contest.
Post by: notquitethere on March 24, 2013, 11:41:28 am
Post by: Mephansteras on March 24, 2013, 03:10:20 pm
I think the various power roles of the players will help, because each will be more powerful in certain situations.
I'm thinking that the 6 player version, with everyone knowing the identity of one other player, has a decent chance of working pretty well.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 24, 2013, 04:47:54 pm
The last version I played was the second edition, though. I don't know about third.
Post by: Griffionday on April 02, 2013, 09:42:50 pm
The idea came from a short detective story I love (The Adventurous Exploit of the Cave of Ali Baba by Dorthy L Sayers) which is set in a band of gentleman-thieves that only know each other by a number; with the exception of the leader who knows everyone in the band.
To set up such a game it should be made VERY clear that the possibility of such a role exists, and in the role PMs each mafia member should be assigned an alias that they should post in the mafia chat as (depending on the flavor, a general example would be numbers). I believe the mafia leader would be an extremely important role as they are guaranteed to not be the traitor, they know the names and aliases of all members, and would be given the alias "Number One" or other obvious title (so they can be identified by mafia members in the chat). It should be possible for the mafia to choose to night-kill one of their own in an attempt to eliminate the traitor.
For balance purposes I think the mafia would need to be fairly large, possibly 3+1/10 or 4+1/12.
Thoughts anyone?
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on April 02, 2013, 09:50:41 pm
Also I've been in a scumteam that had a mole, and the reveal was painful.
Post by: Griffionday on April 02, 2013, 09:52:28 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 02, 2013, 09:55:35 pm
Such a role can exist, but it is very hard to balance. Making it third party is a strong bet.
If you want to make an interesting alternative, may I suggest a Usurper (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Usurper)? I've never seen one here on B12.
Post by: Griffionday on April 02, 2013, 10:04:55 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 02, 2013, 10:18:56 pm
(Seriously if you kept all the flavor in verse I'd be pretty impressed)
Post by: RangerCado on April 02, 2013, 10:21:17 pm
Post by: Griffionday on April 02, 2013, 10:25:39 pm
in regards to the detective/traitor role: this could work out if it went somewhat like this. detective is PMed who 1 mafia is. no role just that their mafia. They are also then PMed the messages sent by this person in scumchat minus any names besides the detective himself. This would give the detective a target to try and lynch, as well as a whole other chat to mull over. any feedback on this would be appreciated.Then wouldn't they just be an cop with a target they know from the start?
A phone tapper could be interesting, especially if the chose a specific time to listen, say two hour periods each day.
Post restriction: All posts must be in iambic pentameter.
But of course it would have to be so.
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on April 02, 2013, 10:28:01 pm
(without learning the author)
Post by: RangerCado on April 02, 2013, 10:45:01 pm
A role that, at the beginning of the night, receives a random scumchat post from that day would be pretty interesting....thats pretty good. i like the phone tapper idea as well.
(without learning the author)
Post by: Griffionday on April 02, 2013, 10:47:05 pm
EDIT: Around 25% probably more if you are able to read more into the the lines.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 06:13:49 am
Post by: notquitethere on April 03, 2013, 06:30:19 am
Post by: Griffionday on April 03, 2013, 11:02:47 am
If you hit something discussing nightkill targets then yeah that's the game broken.Honestly I was just counting the probability that a Mafia was named. With the target being named it jumps to around 40% if I recall correctly.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2013, 11:08:09 am
But if scum know about the existence of tapping abilities, then it encourages them to speak in code, which could be fun.
The only problem with this is that it hampers the scum a good bit and reduces their effectiveness. You'd have to carefully balance the game around the fact that the scum have lost one of their big advantages.
Post by: notquitethere on April 03, 2013, 11:09:38 am
Post by: Xantalos on April 03, 2013, 11:22:08 am
Later I'll try to put it here and you all can see how unintentionally OP I'll make the scum.
Maybe.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2013, 11:24:25 am
I think scum usually have too many advantages as it is.
If they do, that's a balance issue.
Typically, town and scum should be balanced so that they win about half the time each. Slightly less if third parties are involved, although the win conditions for those are variable and don't always effect the town/scum win ratios.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 11:27:07 am
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2013, 11:32:57 am
To be honest, I'd be surprised if town won even close to half the games given that a basic town game is all about skill, while a basic scum game is more about avoiding getting lynched long enough to win. Quite frankly, scum has the easier goal.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 01:32:57 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2013, 01:34:53 pm
Yes - and the game should be balanced accordingly.
Have we come up with a way to balance it towards the town without throwing power roles at the town, though?
Post by: notquitethere on April 03, 2013, 01:41:35 pm
One more town member.
Scum chat only before the game begins or only at certain phases.
No scum chat at all.
Game begins with a deathless night phase to benefit cops.
Post by: Toaster on April 03, 2013, 01:43:46 pm
PPE: I think scumchat limits work counter to the teaching aspect of the game. A N0 is just begging for a "follow the cop" type of gameplay.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2013, 01:49:01 pm
A numeric advantage for town would probably be ok, since that has the smallest impact on the core aspects of the game.
Hmm...what about a Town IC that isn't actually playing? Someone that is known to be town and can give advice, but can't vote or directly effect the game. It would need to be someone who can be a bit hands-off and careful about not letting the town just play follow-the-leader, but it might have the best combination of teaching and improving town's chances of winning.
Post by: Toaster on April 03, 2013, 01:51:29 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2013, 01:54:15 pm
Would you want one or two more? One mostly gets you to MYLO instead of LYLO short of a doctor save, while two is an extra lynch for town.
Hmm. Probably two, if it can be managed. An extra lynch should be enough to swing things in town's favor without making it impossible for scum to win. Also, it would lengthen the game and give people more practice.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 01:59:40 pm
At the moment we're still using a more mafia-sided version of C9 (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9), but that was found to be biased towards mafia over a large sample of games.
Guaranteeing a power role would make it more like F11 (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=F11), but that's still pretty mafia-sided.
The current MS newbie setup is 2 of 4 (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=2of4), which manages a pretty even winrate without throwing in lots of complicated powers. In my opinion the doctor causes problems in 2 of 4 (Cop/Doc is town-sided, Doc/Townie is mafia-sided, Doc/Jailkeeper is generally a bad setup), so I propose instead a slight variation.
2 of 3
One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.
(Jailkeeper roleblocks and protects their target)
It's mostly the same as our current setup but with the mafia power toned down and the town power adjusted up. Jailkeeper is preferable to doctor as it's strong enough to help the town on its own, but not overpowered when combined with a cop.
Post by: Toaster on April 03, 2013, 02:10:29 pm
It creates an uncertainty when a kill is prevented- did the Jailkeeper block scum or protect town? It's a useful result to the town, but it doesn't give as much information as a doc protect, which is as good as making the protectee confirmed town to the doc.
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2013, 02:24:14 pm
Post by: notquitethere on April 03, 2013, 02:26:52 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 03, 2013, 02:39:57 pm
Post by: notquitethere on April 03, 2013, 02:45:09 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 04:30:03 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on April 03, 2013, 04:37:36 pm
Hmm... this changes things. How often do town teams actually manage to co-ordinate themselves with a doctor protecting a cop?
Most basic scenario is this:
Cop inspects a mafia member then claims Cop and who they inspected the next day. It's a great trade-off for the town, and the right thing to do. Doc then knows to protect the Cop every night from that point on and the town then has a very high chance of winning. Takes zero coordination between the two, and ideally no one ever even knows the Doc exists unless the mafia try to kill the Cop. Even if a doc doesn't exist the Cop may be left alone because the mafia don't want to waste a night trying to kill him (and thus prove he's a cop and it's not an elaborate bus attempt).
With the jail keeper, he COULD protect the Cop but he then also makes the cop useless, so he's better off trying to block the mafia and hoping he stops the person who'd kill the cop.
Post by: notquitethere on April 03, 2013, 04:59:42 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on April 03, 2013, 05:28:00 pm
Post by: Griffionday on April 07, 2013, 02:57:56 pm
Role: During the day (to avoid causing the mafia accidentally killing themselves) they have the ability to cause any two players to fall in love. The players are notified of who their new crush is, and gain the lovers role in addition to their current role.
Their win condition is to cause every one alive (with themselves being optional in the case of an even number of players alive) to be paired up. Does not block alignment wins.
Post by: Captain Ford on April 07, 2013, 04:02:47 pm
That could seriously alter the flow of a game. It definitely seems like it could cause utter chaos. (The lovers role causes both to die if either one of them is killed, right?)
Post by: Leafsnail on April 07, 2013, 04:07:21 pm
My reservation is that the Cupid role doesn't really care who gets paired with who, and thus it'd end up kindof random.
Post by: Griffionday on April 07, 2013, 04:14:06 pm
Wow.That's the one.
That could seriously alter the flow of a game. It definitely seems like it could cause utter chaos. (The lovers role causes both to die if either one of them is killed, right?)
I haven't seen it with that wincon before but I seem to remember seeing something like that.I'm not sure, it could quickly cause the game to end before everyone is paired if it causes the town to receive to many deaths, or links the mafias together and kills them to quickly. So the cupid has to pair people who are likely to not be the targets of other kills or he'll lose before everyone is paired.
My reservation is that the Cupid role doesn't really care who gets paired with who, and thus it'd end up kindof random.
Post by: Captain Ford on April 07, 2013, 04:14:38 pm
Could become a protown role, where any scum that's been paired up can no longer execute the nightkill, and if all the scum remaining are paired up, it fulfills the town win condition.
...I think something can be hashed out of that.
Post by: Griffionday on April 07, 2013, 04:17:27 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on April 07, 2013, 04:18:32 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on April 07, 2013, 04:18:56 pm
I'm not sure, it could quickly cause the game to end before everyone is paired if it causes the town to receive to many deaths, or links the mafias together and kills them to quickly. So the cupid has to pair people who are likely to not be the targets of other kills or he'll lose before everyone is paired.That's true, but the role doesn't care about the alignments of the people involved. So it would have a huge affect on town/scum balance, while at the same time not caring overly about that conflict.
I think it's too swingy for a closed game, but you could probably make a decent open setup out of it.
Post by: Captain Ford on April 07, 2013, 04:19:55 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on April 07, 2013, 04:21:56 pm
EDIT: ...OH! No, you're right. Except it's not a lynch. Cupid would be a vig that could never kill town by accident.
Post by: Griffionday on April 07, 2013, 04:24:31 pm
It seems like the game would be too quick. Also I'm not sure why the townie would be out of the game, unless their partner just automatically votes contrary to them.
Leaf: I'm afraid I'm not really clear on the differences between the two game types.
EDIT: Done reading, I think I see what you mean. Yeah I think it would be for the best for every one to know this existed. I might try it in a near-mountainous game after I've played enough that I feel I have a good handle on how the setup affects the game.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 07, 2013, 04:33:27 pm
Post by: webadict on April 07, 2013, 04:54:46 pm
New idea for 3rd party role: Cupid.Eh... it's too specific to be its own alignment.
Role: During the day (to avoid causing the mafia accidentally killing themselves) they have the ability to cause any two players to fall in love. The players are notified of who their new crush is, and gain the lovers role in addition to their current role.
Their win condition is to cause every one alive (with themselves being optional in the case of an even number of players alive) to be paired up. Does not block alignment wins.
Post by: Griffionday on April 07, 2013, 05:04:23 pm
Post by: webadict on April 07, 2013, 07:50:34 pm
I'm not really sure what that means. I'd think an SK is pretty specific.Not really. A Serial Killer can win through various means, and there's no set way to kill everyone. Your cupid suggestion has to use his own abilities to lock everyone together. There is also no other way to make it happen other than him. As such, he's too specific.
Post by: Griffionday on April 07, 2013, 08:58:53 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on April 07, 2013, 09:37:12 pm
It wouldn't actually be game-ending. Disabling the scum's ability to kill is kind of important if cupid is pro-town.
... wait ... you know, what if cupid could only target one person and the other one was random? It would be possible for a person to become lovers with more than one other person...
Oh wait, I'm also assuming that lovers is mutual, but it wouldn't have to be.
Love triangles.
...what if that was the entire point of the game? And the whole point revolved around love and getting certain people to fall in love with you?
Totally a Shakespearean romantic comedy. I think I could come up with something along those lines.
Post by: ToonyMan on April 07, 2013, 10:08:07 pm
Post by: Griffionday on April 07, 2013, 10:19:04 pm
A possibility would be to have the fairies be the scum, but they don't have any NK's (is there a term for this?). Their goal is to pair every mortal up. The townsfolk have kills, but can't use them against a fairy unless they are in love with someone, as the fairies would glamour them otherwise. Love might start out random, with every non-fairy in love with another player (possibly fairy) with the exception of the hunters. Happily ever after would be an acceptable result, except that the hunters would lose if the scum aren't dead.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 08, 2013, 05:41:51 am
Dating sim mafia.I am in support, particularly considering the surprising lack of all those silly Lovers setups over here.
Post by: ToonyMan on April 08, 2013, 12:52:54 pm
Post by: Vector on April 08, 2013, 12:56:35 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 08, 2013, 05:07:39 pm
Dude, I've been hoping for another Toon Mafia for a long time now. Yes, please?Okay, I'll keep it closed set-up then.
Post by: Griffionday on April 08, 2013, 06:08:43 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 08, 2013, 11:19:42 pm
There's three games running right now, and like three in sign-ups. I would like to start this before KotM4 although it's likely I'll have to dual-host if it turns out to be really long, which I don't really mind.
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 08, 2013, 11:40:41 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 08, 2013, 11:54:19 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 09, 2013, 01:13:30 pm
Why the rush to start KotM4? Is your crown weighing you down already?Not really, it should be by the end of the summer though at least. The gap between the previous KotM was like half a year and I'd rather it be a quarter to fit seasons. So sometimes during the summer sounds good.
I'd really rather prefer to host TM7 first too though and that'll at least add some time.
Post by: birdy51 on May 20, 2013, 07:30:02 pm
What if there was an attribute called "Old" or "Cursed" that causes the player who has it to die automatically on the Xth Night. Only they know that they will die on the Xth night, regardless of any protection or doctors visits.
Being doomed to die an inevitiable death, how do you think this would effect the mindset of the player?
Post by: Leafsnail on May 20, 2013, 07:41:04 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 10:22:59 pm
...I wonder what other interesting wincons you could give that kind of role. Or powers.
I think combining that property with a vig would be kind of fun.
Post by: birdy51 on May 20, 2013, 10:33:31 pm
Having it on a mafia member would be a bit counter intuitive, the scum will always be slated to die so there is no use in speeding it up. But on a Townie, the implications can go a bit deeper... Especially if it is an Old Cop or as you said, a Vig. They are going to die eventually unless they win quickly, so it would give them much more reason to be aggressive scum hunters.
Also, I probably should have guessed that I am not by any means the first to consider this idea. Still, it might make for an interesting flavor to have characters dying of old age as the game goes on.
Which leads me to a new thought... What if the player is told that they will die old age, but they aren't told which day?
Or if they are told they are Old, but they aren't actually slated to die of Old Age until Turn 15, making the idea that they old completely pointless!
My sideburns are itchy in maniacal thoughts...
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2013, 10:35:20 pm
Post by: webadict on May 20, 2013, 10:46:45 pm
Post by: Toaster on May 20, 2013, 10:52:22 pm
Also, don't under- or overestimate your abilities.
Post by: webadict on May 20, 2013, 10:53:19 pm
But I try not to make you feel too bad about your role. Except Dariush. I only laughed at him.Also, don't under- or overestimate your abilities.
Post by: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 11:31:49 pm
You could claim that without directly exposing the doctor, but scum could use it to bait the doctor and so on and so forth and actually it gets rather interesting...especially if you've got, like, 2 CPR doctors...
Post by: Captain Ford on May 20, 2013, 11:37:56 pm
Nursing Home Mafia...half the players are doctors, and they have to work carefully to keep the rest of the players alive, and someone is pulling them off life support...
Roles
War Vet with PTSD and a Walker - Once per game, you can attach a machete to the front of your walker and ram someone with it. This acts as a daykill, after which the staff confiscate your walker and you're forced to use a wheelchair.
Tap-Dancer with Parkinson's - At night, you can tap dance outside the hallway of somebody's room, attracting the attention of anyone who would visit them. Anyone targeting your target targets you instead.
...yeah...
Post by: zombie urist on May 20, 2013, 11:39:17 pm
a very interesting idea :o
Host this 8)
Post by: webadict on May 21, 2013, 12:08:09 am
Thats...He has two roles. That's not a game yet.
a very interesting idea :o
Host this 8)
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 12:09:23 am
Post by: zombie urist on May 21, 2013, 12:11:01 am
He has two roles. That's not a game yet.I can wait. Though not too long. :P
May I just say that I was thinking of a game where you could only speak by quoting lyrics from songs. It would make it very interesting to try to communicate but not impossible. I would like to run a game like this myselfe but I have very little experience. I hope someone likes the idea.To be honest that would probably get annoying after the first day.
Post by: webadict on May 21, 2013, 12:12:04 am
May I just say that I was thinking of a game where you could only speak by quoting lyrics from songs. It would make it very interesting to try to communicate but not impossible. I would like to run a game like this myselfe but I have very little experience. I hope someone likes the idea.Do not do this.
Post by: Vector on May 21, 2013, 12:17:46 am
Post by: birdy51 on May 21, 2013, 04:41:43 am
Post by: Shinigami_King on May 21, 2013, 11:36:20 am
Post by: notquitethere on May 21, 2013, 12:55:16 pm
Game consists of an informed minority of jester scum. Town are uninformed mafia. Scum win when they are all lynched, town win when scum have all been night killed.
Post by: Mephansteras on May 21, 2013, 12:56:37 pm
Post by: notquitethere on May 21, 2013, 01:02:35 pm
Post by: Teneb on May 21, 2013, 01:07:39 pm
I can think of a few ways, (including all town getting a night kill but shed loads of protects and redirects and blocks and whatnot). Better idea: no night kill, town win when there all equal or less town than jesters. It'd be called Suicidal Mafia.So the objective is to lynch town instead. It could be intresting, I guess. With no night kills, unless there are a lot of other powers, there would be no point in having a night.
Post by: notquitethere on May 21, 2013, 03:01:32 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on May 21, 2013, 03:02:29 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on May 21, 2013, 03:07:06 pm
How about Inverse Mafia?I like this. Give the jesters the night kill, force them to use it, and then give every townie a redirect.
Game consists of an informed minority of jester scum. Town are uninformed mafia. Scum win when they are all lynched, town win when scum have all been night killed.
Post by: RangerCado on May 21, 2013, 05:04:29 pm
Do you realize the chaos all those redirects would do? It'd be like magic mafia again where every NK either went to Vector, NQT, or someone Tiruin protected.How about Inverse Mafia?I like this. Give the jesters the night kill, force them to use it, and then give every townie a redirect.
Game consists of an informed minority of jester scum. Town are uninformed mafia. Scum win when they are all lynched, town win when scum have all been night killed.
Post by: webadict on May 21, 2013, 05:16:51 pm
Psh, Magic Mafia was fine. She just got super unlucky.Do you realize the chaos all those redirects would do? It'd be like magic mafia again where every NK either went to Vector, NQT, or someone Tiruin protected.How about Inverse Mafia?I like this. Give the jesters the night kill, force them to use it, and then give every townie a redirect.
Game consists of an informed minority of jester scum. Town are uninformed mafia. Scum win when they are all lynched, town win when scum have all been night killed.
Post by: Captain Ford on May 21, 2013, 05:24:40 pm
You think that would be chaotic?Do you realize the chaos all those redirects would do? It'd be like magic mafia again where every NK either went to Vector, NQT, or someone Tiruin protected.How about Inverse Mafia?I like this. Give the jesters the night kill, force them to use it, and then give every townie a redirect.
Game consists of an informed minority of jester scum. Town are uninformed mafia. Scum win when they are all lynched, town win when scum have all been night killed.
You realize the jesters will have to fakeclaim. :)
Post by: Captain Ford on May 21, 2013, 08:00:27 pm
Thats...I will consider it. Keep a lookout for Geriatric Mafia.
a very interesting idea :o
Host this 8)
Post by: birdy51 on May 21, 2013, 09:08:31 pm
Post by: webadict on May 21, 2013, 09:33:26 pm
...I believe I accidently helped spawn a new mafia varient that involves killing off the elderly. I'm not certain whether this is a good thing or not!You only have to give them their medication.
Post by: birdy51 on May 22, 2013, 06:31:48 pm
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Suicidal
I am not the first one to consider this idea! It's just labled differently than one might expect.
Post by: birdy51 on May 31, 2013, 09:34:17 pm
I am reawakening this thread again in order to do a bit of theory crafting that may or may not result in me running an experimental gametype... I suppose it all depends on how well this idea is received. Anyways, let's get started.
I have been tossing around the idea of a new type of character, one that has the ability to participate in the traditionally closed Mafia dialogue, but is a part of the Town Faction. For the sake of convenience, I shall call it the Double Agent. Using their private conversations as evidence, the Double Agent is designed to hunt down the Mafia from within by reading their private chat logs.
I will not bastardize the role though. The Mafia will be alerted by the presence of the Double Agent, both in their pre-game bios and in the QuickTopic. In order to protect their identities, I will provide them with codenames and the identies of their partners in crime. The Double Agent will also be given a code name, so that the Double Agent can converse with them freely with the Mafia if he or she chooses.
This leaves room for the Double Agent and the Mafia to play mind games with one another in a game of wits freely, each trying to worm into their faceless enemy.
In addition to their ability to communicate with the Mafia, I am also considering giving the Double Agent a X-Shot power, in order to make the Double Agent a bit stronger.
Now, flavor!
If you haven't guessed already, the game is based around the idea of the games of spies and plays out as a Cold War Drama. Set in the idyllic countryside of Switzerland, a series tentative peace talks between the two world powers of The United States and Soviet Union are about to begin, when a string of murders take place, diplomats on both sides being the target. Anarchists are suspected, but nothing is certain. Neither side is pleased; nor are they willing to trust one another. Both the Soviet Union and USA send their own respective agents disguised as diplomats to investigate the occurence. It is their mission to find the anarchists among peace makers... And avoid being killed in the process.
Their story is told by a survivor of the incident, an enigmatic elderly man spinning a tale of intrigue to his grand children.
Finally, I'm trying to think of some other characters that fit the theme, and how to maximize player activity without there being role overload. The Bodyguard is perfect for this setup, as he has both a thematic reason for being at a diplomatic summit, and he has the ability to protect against a Mafia attack. I'm thinking of giving him a one-shot Bullet-Proof. This means that he can save someone once without risking his life. The second time he protects someone however will end in his death. His sacrifice will not be in vain though, as his target is saved.
That is enough out of me though. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Post by: notquitethere on May 31, 2013, 09:55:18 pm
Post by: webadict on May 31, 2013, 10:20:24 pm
Post by: zombie urist on June 01, 2013, 12:26:44 am
Post by: webadict on June 01, 2013, 12:56:59 am
Help Ford with Geriatric mafia.Who me?
Post by: birdy51 on June 01, 2013, 08:43:29 am
Help Ford with Geriatric mafia.Who me?
I believe it was addressed to me.
If CaptainFord is willing to let me shadow him and help out wherever I can, I have no problem with giving him a hand with Geratric Mafia!
I don't know... that role is just... boring.
The Double Agent does have the potential to be rather dull, so I may go on the consideration of giving it some JOAT abilities, most likely the ability to Nightkill or Investigate once. That way, even if the Mafia clam up, he's not entirely useless.
Post by: notquitethere on June 01, 2013, 08:46:34 am
Post by: Mephansteras on June 01, 2013, 09:19:41 am
I think the Double Agent role would work if there are established codenames for everyone in Mafia-chat and no one fluffs up and comments while signed into their quicktopic profile.
The problem with this is that it seriously hamstrings the quickchat for the mafia. Sure, they can talk in code names and discuss the night kill ok, but the day game loses pretty much all co-ordination. You can't talk with someone about how you're going to attack them for such-and-such or ask someone what they really meant when they mentioned X. All of those things would be a complete give-away as to who the mafia actually is.
Also, always remember that cop roles don't have to worry about 'getting caught' by mafia. Once they find even one it can be an excellent idea to tell town everything they know, since a 1-1 trade is always a good deal for town.
So Mafia basically can't use the quicktopic for anything meaningful and you have an overall more disorganized game. Which is rarely as fun.
Post by: webadict on June 01, 2013, 10:40:16 am
I disagree with Wuba here-- I think a doubleagent would be fun to play-- you'd have to work out from the scumchat who the mafia were and try to let town know without outing yourself.Not really. You're just going to have zero talking in the thread. There's not really a point to having someone listen in on the scumteam. It turns out REALLY bad. It makes it PARTICULARLY bad, since you really want to agree on a person to kill, but doing so could reveal more people that aren't scum. Hence you just let one person pick, and then kill the person. No one else talks. It really makes the role pointless.
You can look at Paranormal some# with the old style Watcher.
Ninja edit because 504 errors: What Meph said.
Post by: Captain Ford on June 01, 2013, 01:33:13 pm
I had the pleasure of observing a mafia game (http://www.chocolatehammer.org/?cat=279) where a double agent was introduced midgame. Quite a lot went on behind the scenes, but ultimately it just turned into a lynchfest since the double agent was given a way (multiple ways, actually) to anonymously inform the town who the scum were.
At the very least, the double agent should be given a wincon that requires him to be alive at the end of the game, which should eliminate the temptation to break his cover early.
...actually...here's a great idea. Let's make it two roles.
Informant
The informant is a member of the mafia who is in contact with the spymaster. They do not have a private chat, but the informant can send one message to the spymaster per day.
The informant does not know the identity of the spymaster.
If all other mafia members are dead, the informant becomes a vanilla townie.
Wincon: Must survive to the end of the game.
Spymaster
The spymaster is in contact with an informant in the mafia. He may send any number of messages to the informant, but the informant only receives them when he goes to make an information drop.
The spymaster knows the identity of his informants.
Wincon: Wins with the town.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 04:30:53 pm
The better "mafia traitor" role is, in my opinion, the Usurper. He still wins with the mafia, but he has to get the Godfather killed too and probably survive him (the Godfather loses if he dies while the Usurper is still alive, and is informed that someone in his ranks may be out to get him). This is better in my opinion since the role still introduces some dissent into the mafia ranks without the risk of having people just tell the town who the mafia is.
You can look at Paranormal some# with the old style Watcher.There was also the Controlled Doppelganger, which was weird because it could betray either of the scumteams it was aligned with (I'm not sure if one was ever actually used in a game, it was before my time really).
Post by: Captain Ford on June 01, 2013, 04:44:51 pm
Also give one of the scum a one-shot daykill to keep the informant from claiming when there's only one other scum left.
It may seem that there's no reason for the informant to not reveal the entire scumteam immediately and no reason for the spymaster not to reveal all of their identities. Except that if the informant and spymaster do that, then the informant loses because the scum identify him and kill him with the daykill.
Of course, the spymaster doesn't care whether the informant lives or not, so either the spymaster has to behave in good faith, or the informant has to not reveal everything at once.
But I ultimately agree that it's very prone to not working as intended.
And yes, the usurper is definitely a better role for injecting chaos into the scumteam.
Post by: birdy51 on June 01, 2013, 06:15:01 pm
The points of Mephansteras and Webadict provide solid reasoning as to why the role is potentially flawed. I'll keep thinking about ways that might make the Double Agent idea a bit more plausible though. The idea interests me. Perhaps I'll return to it eventually, but we shall see.
Now, onto the Informant/Spymaster role! It's an interesting concept, but I question whether the Informant will have enough incentive to keep his mouth clamped. As it stands, the Informant is a very swingy role. If the Mafia is winning, he'll want to stick with them, but if they are not faring well, the Informant becomes a massive nail in their coffin.
In addition, the idea of a Daykill helps with preventing the flip, but it can also become a potent weapon for the Mafia to instantly kill off any high value targets that might be forced into the open. Flipping roles is no longer a way to protect yourself when pressed.
Post by: Captain Ford on June 01, 2013, 06:28:27 pm
Edit: Shit, no, that's even worse. In fact, the whole thing is broken because as soon as there's two left, they'd just vote each other and the informant would die. The informant would always lose!
That problem holds true for the original version, too! Ugh. Completely broken.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 01, 2013, 07:34:35 pm
You're right about the daykill there. It's not the right kind of incentive. Ooh...better idea. Allow the mafia to have their own lynchvote, and the informant's vote always loses in a tie. (No Lynch is an option, and in ties that don't involve an informant the lynch is picked at random)I slowly typed up the equivalent of that before realizing it was the exact same. Hm... Though I think the mafialynch is the best way to do so, as well as the spymaster/informant combo.
Edit: Shit, no, that's even worse. In fact, the whole thing is broken because as soon as there's two left, they'd just vote each other and the informant would die. The informant would always lose!
I mentioned Diplomacy Mafia in the other thread. Anyone have an idea as to how to make it work without making it a slightly more restricted game of Diplomacy?
Post by: birdy51 on June 01, 2013, 10:22:26 pm
You're right about the daykill there. It's not the right kind of incentive. Ooh...better idea. Allow the mafia to have their own lynchvote, and the informant's vote always loses in a tie. (No Lynch is an option, and in ties that don't involve an informant the lynch is picked at random)I slowly typed up the equivalent of that before realizing it was the exact same. Hm... Though I think the mafialynch is the best way to do so, as well as the spymaster/informant combo.
Edit: Shit, no, that's even worse. In fact, the whole thing is broken because as soon as there's two left, they'd just vote each other and the informant would die. The informant would always lose!
I mentioned Diplomacy Mafia in the other thread. Anyone have an idea as to how to make it work without making it a slightly more restricted game of Diplomacy?
I haven't seen that post yet, but it sounds interesting. Where is it at?
Also... as I mentioned in another thread, I am considering running a game in order to build up bit of experience. The idea for Cold Mafia is being shelved for now, since there are complications with the Double Agent. Therefore, I am willing to take suggestions for a gametype that is interesting, but still simple enough that a relatively new player could run it.
Luckily, I have a bit of an RPing background, so any flavor shouldn't be a major problem. I just need a setup to run with.
Post by: Toaster on June 01, 2013, 10:48:31 pm
Post by: Phantom of The Library on June 01, 2013, 11:00:39 pm
I've always wanted to see a Smalltown game. (Everyone knows everyone's role, but not alignment.)I might run one of these after Toon Mafia finishes if anyone else is interested.
Post by: zombie urist on June 01, 2013, 11:14:07 pm
And a revolution mafia.
Wasn't Elements basically diplomacy mafia?
Post by: Leafsnail on June 02, 2013, 08:26:40 am
I've always wanted to see a Smalltown game. (Everyone knows everyone's role, but not alignment.)I quite like them, but bear in mind they're usually very action-based (a lot of the day is spent organizing what to do in the night).
Post by: birdy51 on June 02, 2013, 09:48:15 am
Someone should run a cybrid mafia. ;)
And a revolution mafia.
Wasn't Elements basically diplomacy mafia?
Looked up Cybrid Mafia in the old games thread. I think that setup is out of my League! I wouldn't even know how to begin to write the flavor on that one. Sci-Fi is not my specialty, and I am unfamiliar with the concept.
Never heard of Revolution Mafia though.
I've always wanted to see a Smalltown game. (Everyone knows everyone's role, but not alignment.)
This could be interesting... What roles would be included in the mix?
Post by: griffinpup on June 02, 2013, 05:34:00 pm
Also, I want to either play or mod a bastard game. Any good ones out there?
Post by: Leafsnail on June 02, 2013, 05:49:48 pm
There is an idea I've been kicking around for a while but I'd need to make it into a proper setup
Post by: Captain Ford on June 02, 2013, 05:50:21 pm
Can someone explain exactly what diplomacy mafia is?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_game
Diplomacy is a somewhat old board game where all actions are prepared in secret before they are executed. It takes even longer to play than Monopoly.
Post by: griffinpup on June 02, 2013, 05:56:42 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 02, 2013, 11:24:57 pm
Post by: zombie urist on June 02, 2013, 11:39:21 pm
Never heard of Revolution Mafia though.Here's the link to revolution.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122540.0
There's probably some balance issues people want to discuss though.
Post by: zombie urist on June 02, 2013, 11:41:50 pm
I think there was one of these earlier on the forums, but this looks really fun to play.
Post by: Dariush on June 03, 2013, 07:42:26 am
I think there was one of these earlier on the forums, but this looks really fun to play.
Quote
100% scum winrateOr does it.
Post by: zombie urist on June 03, 2013, 11:14:34 am
Post by: birdy51 on June 03, 2013, 03:20:10 pm
Masons and Monks might be a good pick, but the loss rate is rather intimidating. As for Revolution Mafia... I plan on doing a solid read through of it!
I have even more incentive to to look for a new game now though, as I think I have a good concept for a Bastard Mafia that doesn't involve spies. It's a bit of a Rolemania concept, which sounds worse than it really is. Every role has different powers granted to it, but there is a pattern on how the powers are given. It's a bit like Elements Mafia. Only without the elemental alliances a significantly larger pool of players. And of course scum.
It's not Mafia without scum!
Post by: birdy51 on June 03, 2013, 04:18:02 pm
I like it. It is an interesting concept, with a relatively hands off approach when the wheels get rolling. It is a type of game that is within my range of ability.
The only question is whether to make adjustments or simply run the game again as Vanilla, so as to get solid results. It could be very likely that first-time jitters proceeded to allow the spies to take absolute control in the first game.
However, I am considering the idea of allowing the "Leader" of each operation team to call off the mission if they believe that a spy has sabotaged it. This would allow the Revolutionaries a bit more leeway if they do happen to get sabotaged by a spy. As is, the Spy team could probably keep sabotaging every time and still manage to win. By adding a variable of uncertainty, it might give the spies a chance at victory.
Post by: notquitethere on June 03, 2013, 04:23:28 pm
I would definitely play Revolution again. We would have won it if the other rebel players weren't so immune to rational thinking. They put Leafsnail on the second team after the first one failed with him on! Madness!
Post by: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 04:49:08 pm
Post by: notquitethere on June 03, 2013, 04:54:35 pm
Post by: birdy51 on June 03, 2013, 05:30:46 pm
Due to the sheer amount of pain and chaos that will be floating about, players will be able to form "parties"; groups of players who have banded together under a mutual banner to afford themselves some protection as a single unit. While this hinders an individual character's ability to evolve, the protection that they get from being in a group may be enough to help them survive until the scum is crushed. But, the allure of more power can be quite the motivator.
Utlitmately, the Town's success will lie in the ability of the Town to coordinate it's efforts and work together. On the flip side of the coin, there is also a strong chance of success for individual players who know when to shirk the defenses of a group and take action on their own. I intend to try to reward both types of players. If a player can survive in the No-Man's land, he will be rewarded by evolving faster and gaining more powerful abilities. But, what use is this power if you cannot live long enough to use it?
I do like the idea of the Agents of Chaos though. Explore it. Perhaps it can be in the sidelines, while there still is a Mafia. Sort of a demented form of a serial killer if you will.
Post by: birdy51 on June 03, 2013, 06:11:34 pm
Scum probably needs to not have any chance to discuss strategy for the game balance to work.
Bah, I missed this before I posted.
If I were to consider any changes, it would be to give the Town more decisions options. The Spy side being able to organize is a neccessary thing. Otherwise, it ends up as one large batch of WIFOM on just their side. Which isn't going to be fun.
Post by: zombie urist on June 03, 2013, 06:14:53 pm
The goal behind my own variant is a bit of a trust building exercise with an intermix of a plethora of different role options that all share a single theme. Each role has evolving abilities, and become stronger as the game goes on. Most, deal with either damaging an opponent, deception, or healing. A few characters will be given insight into the nature of other players, but it is ultimately up to the Town to decipher how characters are dying and how to react to it.Don't do something this complicated.
...
Post by: birdy51 on June 03, 2013, 07:07:03 pm
The goal behind my own variant is a bit of a trust building exercise with an intermix of a plethora of different role options that all share a single theme. Each role has evolving abilities, and become stronger as the game goes on. Most, deal with either damaging an opponent, deception, or healing. A few characters will be given insight into the nature of other players, but it is ultimately up to the Town to decipher how characters are dying and how to react to it.Don't do something this complicated.
...
Certainly not yet. That would be a terrible idea. I plan on having a few extra games under my belt before I do anything too extreme. Baby steps.
My current sights are on the Revolution Type game. Once the details are set, I think that would be an excellent place to start. There is interest in the game mode, so I think players would fill up the slots rapidly. I just need to iron out the final details, such as flavor and any potential balance changes.
Post by: birdy51 on June 04, 2013, 06:10:25 pm
For now, I plan on mimicking GlyphGryph's origional flavour. The game will be set after the embarrassing failure of the March Revolution. This time however, the spies will have no time to plan. They will be alerted of their allies, and then be promptly thrown into the game along with the rebels.
Should spies need to communicate, they must find a way to get it past the rebels this time around.
Post by: notquitethere on June 04, 2013, 07:05:36 pm
Post by: birdy51 on June 04, 2013, 08:27:19 pm
Prologue
"The March Revolution will go down in the history books as a monument to our success and a shrine of the Rebel's failure!"
Leafsnail smiled and exhaled a plume of black smoke into the air. In one hand, he held large cigar. In the other, he held the newspaper commemorating his greatest triumph. Leafsnail grins, hardly controlling his joviality. "Front page gentlemen! 'Confused Rebel Scum Purged from Empire!'"
His cohorts joined him in a single mass of raucous laughter, hooting like barbarians. Tonight the spies celebrate. Zombie Urist breaks out his best wine, while Nerjin recounts the story of him shooting Dariush one more time. His arms fly around in wide frenzied circles in his state of inebriation. "And he went down like a rock! Just. Like. That." He folds his finger into a gun and fires off a few mock rounds. Nerjin promptly falls backwards in his chair, which sends him plummeting to the ground. Leafsnail continues to pound the table as the sound of laughter fills the smoky room.
Only Zombie Urist remains composed. His face is etched in lines of deep thought as he swirls the wine in his glass. Leafsnail, in a fit of disorderly conduct will have none of it. He stumbles over and slings his arm around his scum buddy, rubbing his hair in a disorderly fashion. "My dear friend, you are looking more dead than usual tonight! Come on and celebrate!"
"Not yet." Zombie Urist snatches the newspaper out of his hand and jabs it in Leafsnail's face. "We captured five of the rebels. Five."
"And?" Nerjin asks incuriously. He rises up from the floor, using the table as a grip.
"There were six. One escaped capture."
Nerjin slides back into his chair, giggling. "Who gives a flying shit? We won. The rebellion was crushed. Game over man. Game over." His chuckling dies off as the hero of the spies conveniently slips into an alcohol induced coma, leaving Zombie Urist and Leafsnail to discuss the matter with one another.
"That so."
"Yeah."
"Who is it?"
"You know who it is." Zombie Urist hisses. "Him. It's easy to put out the fires of resistance, but if we have failed to destroy the embers, we may have an ever larger fire on our hands."
"You mean... He's coming back?"
Zombie Urist nods and leans in close, grabs Leafsnail's collar and looks him straight in the eye. "Yes. The Revolution has only just begun.
Post by: ToonyMan on June 04, 2013, 10:07:05 pm
Post by: zombie urist on June 04, 2013, 10:20:00 pm
Any thoughts?
Post by: birdy51 on June 05, 2013, 05:36:42 pm
What about two spies and one spy ally who wins with the spies? The two spies have a day to plan and know there is a spy-ally. The spy ally needs to identify the spies and work with them while remaining hidden. The spy ally can sabotage too, but he won't be able to communicate with the other spies secretly.
Any thoughts?
I think we may need to run another vanilla before we start adding anything new.
Now! I am going to aim to have this game up on or by Friday. I'll let the players trickle in after that.
However, I have just a single question. Should I be forced to take a short leave of absence, what is the process for finding a backup GM?
Post by: Nerjin on June 06, 2013, 01:42:56 am
Post by: zombie urist on June 06, 2013, 01:10:11 pm
Post by: Nerjin on June 06, 2013, 01:11:20 pm
Edit: I need to pay attention to the thread names.
Post by: zombie urist on June 06, 2013, 01:12:25 pm
Post by: birdy51 on June 06, 2013, 03:39:34 pm
The flavor is fine other than the fact that I don't drink and, quite frankly, I'm angered by even the thought. But it's pretty good flavor other than my silly nit-pick.
Noted.
Sorry about offending you... It was an accident, but you are more than justified at being a bit peturbed. I basically pulled names and sort of wrote as I went. Still, rest assured that I'll make a note about that in the future!
If it's any comfort, I don't actually drink myself. Never really felt the need to.
I'll backup GM. Also you should probably announce the game in the games threshold discussion thread.
You will now be reffered to as Spymaster Zombie Urist. Congratulations on your promotion!
Post by: Shinigami_King on June 07, 2013, 11:06:25 am
Quote from: my post in the wrong thread
How about an E3 type of game split into four factions. Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and indie. Every faction has unique power roles that could revolve around converting players or something, I don't know. Just thought that if I threw out the idea others could help come up with the rules and how the entire thing would work.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 07, 2013, 11:36:39 am
Multiple factions can work pretty well. The only real downside to it is that there is a higher chance that any given faction is going to be placed in a nearly unwinnable situation early on. You also have to figure out how things work at the end-game with tiebreakers. Normally, it's Mafia wins if they have equal to or greater number of players than the town. With more than two actual factions, that logic doesn't quite work as-is.
I'd probably balance it by having the teams get powered inversely depending on where they are on the tiebreaker totem. So the team that beats everyone else in a 1-1-1-1 tie get the weakest power roles.
Post by: Shinigami_King on June 07, 2013, 11:49:48 am
How would a conversion system work, I've seen them before but the game was a bust.
Post by: Mephansteras on June 07, 2013, 11:54:31 am
For 4 factions you're really just better off using standard powers with maybe a unique team power.
Besides, by the time a game is at E3 it's far to late to be talking about changing platforms. :p
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 20, 2013, 04:19:31 pm
Then each of the three "platforms" could essentially be cults that could try and pull in the Indies. (but can't cult the already-converted)
The Indies could have their own initial wincon that gets overwritten, meaning they have an incentive to either: not get converted at all, or only get converted by the ultimate winner.
It could be interesting, at least.
On another note, I've been thinking of doing a fairly basic System Shock 2 themed mafia game - would anyone be interested?
Post by: Toaster on June 20, 2013, 07:55:46 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 20, 2013, 09:09:54 pm
Post by: Servant Corps on June 30, 2013, 10:58:16 am
Reducing the number of Survivors in the game would help to fix most of the problems that were in Religious Flame War Mafia.
I...might be considering overhauling Religious Mafia, if I have time to do so.
Post by: Dariush on June 30, 2013, 11:11:10 am
I...might be considering overhauling Religious Mafia, if I have time to do so.Haha, I remember how you overhauled Cybrid. No thanks.
Post by: Servant Corps on June 30, 2013, 11:22:11 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 30, 2013, 11:38:14 am
Post by: Nerjin on June 30, 2013, 12:56:47 pm
working on an idea of my own, the key gimmick is that one invulnerable (from everything) player has total control of the day (only their vote counts, and day ends when they vote, not based on time), their win condition is to identify the one player that is their ally from all the rest, and make that player the last player standing. they have no faction chat, and don't know who their ally is. each of the other factions want one of their players to be the last one standing instead. as a rule of thumb, the larger the faction, the weaker the power roles they'd have. game ends one way or another when there's only one player left standing (the invuln player doesn't count, and signups for the invuln role would be separated from the normal player signups, similar to how ICs are handled in BM games.) no roleflips.
So: 1 Invulnerable player who wins when they have eliminated everyone but their ally. they are the only player to vote, it's obvious who the invuln player is so that there is no reason to false-claim. Looking bad so far I'm afraid.
It seems like a very exploitable set-up if I understand it properly. How does one player scum-hunt when EVERYONE says the same thing "I'm on your team dude!". Could you go into more detail about the way this would work. Some examples of the various factions?
Post by: lordnincompoop on June 30, 2013, 03:09:06 pm
working on an idea of my own, the key gimmick is that one invulnerable (from everything) player has total control of the day (only their vote counts, and day ends when they vote, not based on time), their win condition is to identify the one player that is their ally from all the rest, and make that player the last player standing. they have no faction chat, and don't know who their ally is. each of the other factions want one of their players to be the last one standing instead. as a rule of thumb, the larger the faction, the weaker the power roles they'd have. game ends one way or another when there's only one player left standing (the invuln player doesn't count, and signups for the invuln role would be separated from the normal player signups, similar to how ICs are handled in BM games.) no roleflips.
Kingmaker: Aerys II Targaryen Edition?
Post by: Griffionday on June 30, 2013, 03:10:55 pm
The central mechanic is that everyone has second lives and the day cycle is divided into three phases instead of two.
During the morning phase everyone votes to take away the extra life of one player and give it to another player. The players with the most vote in either category will be selected (as opposed to the most voted pairing). If a player requests replacement, both of their bodies are also up for voting, similarly with players who have been absent for over 72 hours. This phase lasts 24 hours without extension.
During this phase out of town guests (people in the replacement queue) may post once offering their candidacy for becoming a part of the town, town may then vote them in by giving them a body to inhabit. If they are taking the primary body of another player they are counted as replacing that player and get their role and win-con. If they only receive a secondary body they are randomly assigned a win-con with weighted chances based on the number of each side that voted for them receiving the body (so if 3 town and 1 mafia voted for them, they would have a 75% chance of being town and 25% chance of being scum).
During the day phase business is as normal: The player voted to be lynched only loses one life. This phase would last 48 hours
The night phase is also fairly normal, players send in their actions etc. This phase lasts 24 hours.
For the basic version the power-roles I have in mind are:
Spoiler: Mafia (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Town (click to show/hide)
Additional power roles I want to add but aren't part of the basic game:
Spoiler: 3rd party (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Town (click to show/hide)
Aesthetically I'm thinking this works within a cyberpunk theme.
Thoughts?
Post by: Lenglon on June 30, 2013, 05:19:42 pm
generally in a vanilla setup everybody claims the same role (vanilla townie) as well, so the invuln player would mostly need to be very good at normal scumhunting tactics. this is a mafia game after all. also, keep in mind that the invuln player has control of the only (excluding changeling) cross-faction chat.working on an idea of my own, the key gimmick is that one invulnerable (from everything) player has total control of the day (only their vote counts, and day ends when they vote, not based on time), their win condition is to identify the one player that is their ally from all the rest, and make that player the last player standing. they have no faction chat, and don't know who their ally is. each of the other factions want one of their players to be the last one standing instead. as a rule of thumb, the larger the faction, the weaker the power roles they'd have. game ends one way or another when there's only one player left standing (the invuln player doesn't count, and signups for the invuln role would be separated from the normal player signups, similar to how ICs are handled in BM games.) no roleflips.
So: 1 Invulnerable player who wins when they have eliminated everyone but their ally. they are the only player to vote, it's obvious who the invuln player is so that there is no reason to false-claim. Looking bad so far I'm afraid.
It seems like a very exploitable set-up if I understand it properly. How does one player scum-hunt when EVERYONE says the same thing "I'm on your team dude!". Could you go into more detail about the way this would work. Some examples of the various factions?
Faction 0: (allied to invuln) 1 player, 1-shot bulletproof, or possibly a 1-shot auto-redirect to a random target. if game is large gets an ally with a 1-shot protect or 1-shot-auto-bodyguard (if the person you're protecting gets NKd, you die instead) (ally's wincon is that you survive, not that they do themselves, if they're last one standing everybody loses.)
Faction 1: (weak faction) lots of players, no individual power roles, 1 mafiakill (named different but effect is the same)
Faction 2: (strong faction) 1 changeling, can either NK or replace someone each night. can end up with access to many faction chats if chooses targets well.
Faction 3: (moderate- faction) small party, 1 mafiakill, every member has an inspect, every member gets a 1-shot redirect.
Faction 4: (strong faction) 1 doomspeaker.
Faction 5: (moderate+ faction) small party, every member a JOAT, 1 mafiakill.
Faction 6: (weak faction) same as faction 1
and so on, the exact number of factions and what they can do will vary, but there will always be at least 3 factions, plus Faction 0 (the actual invuln player's ally). nobody will get any kind of day action. roleclaims to form alliances between factions are possible but suicidal because you will be daykilled by the invuln player pretty much instantly.
it's pretty much intended for a closed setup. not knowing exactly what roles are in the game matters.
Post by: griffinpup on June 30, 2013, 05:49:19 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 30, 2013, 07:58:20 pm
But again, how do you scumhunt when EVERYONE is claiming the same thing, and every role-claim is immediately lynched by the invulnerable player? This game would devolve to people randomly nightkilling each-other while the invulnerable player randomly lynches people. You can't scumhunt when there's no traits to differentiate the people you're looking for. Everyone's goal is to kill everyone else. Therefore, there's nothing to look for.how is that different from basic mafia with no power roles?
also, i think you missed a few inspects and particularly how much the changeling changes things.
Post by: Nerjin on June 30, 2013, 08:17:42 pm
Plus the changeling doesn't really change much. It just kills and gets access to other chats. Again since you're entire goal is for the invuln player to love you you basically don't even need the other chats since you know that everyone else that's alive is another player that you want dead.
Post by: griffinpup on June 30, 2013, 08:19:59 pm
Post by: Toaster on June 30, 2013, 08:57:41 pm
mafiakill
Here's the problem- it's too swingy. All that has to happen is the ally to get nightkilled, and then you have a player who cannot win deciding who does win.
Post by: Lenglon on July 01, 2013, 12:23:00 am
pup: everyone else is trying to eliminate the other factions, but don't want to eliminate their allies. the true ally is effectively a survivor, the rest are closer to town.
Nerjin: the inspects say which faction a given player is with. each individual faction has a better chance of winning the fewer other factions are left alive. for example if faction players identify the changeling they can pick that person off and remove one nightkill that is outside their control. also, once they identify the person the invuln player is allied too, they actually have the option of claiming and holding the invuln player effectively hostage, because one of their unclaimed allies will nightkill the invuln player's ally if he chooses to daykill them.
Post by: Nerjin on July 01, 2013, 12:26:50 am
Post by: Lenglon on July 01, 2013, 12:34:26 am
So once you find out what faction the other player is... You set out to kill them. Which is exactly what you'd be doing anyway. Why waste an action inspecting when you'd want to just kill them anyway. I dunno. It could be an alright set-up but it needs work.the idea is to let you pick and choose your target, rather than kill at random. similar to how in normal mafia the scum want every townie dead, but a scum inspect lets them pick and choose the highest priority targets to kill first. remember a mafiakill is 1-per-night-per-faction, whereas the inspects are 1-per-night-per-person. kill 1 person and inspect two others each night. next night you can pick your target better.
Post by: Nerjin on July 01, 2013, 10:54:54 pm
Post by: dakarian on July 01, 2013, 11:40:59 pm
May as well through my idea up for speculation:
The central mechanic is that everyone has second lives and the day cycle is divided into three phases instead of two.
During the morning phase everyone votes to take away the extra life of one player and give it to another player. The players with the most vote in either category will be selected (as opposed to the most voted pairing). If a player requests replacement, both of their bodies are also up for voting, similarly with players who have been absent for over 72 hours. This phase lasts 24 hours without extension.
During this phase out of town guests (people in the replacement queue) may post once offering their candidacy for becoming a part of the town, town may then vote them in by giving them a body to inhabit. If they are taking the primary body of another player they are counted as replacing that player and get their role and win-con. If they only receive a secondary body they are randomly assigned a win-con with weighted chances based on the number of each side that voted for them receiving the body (so if 3 town and 1 mafia voted for them, they would have a 75% chance of being town and 25% chance of being scum).
During the day phase business is as normal: The player voted to be lynched only loses one life. This phase would last 48 hours
The night phase is also fairly normal, players send in their actions etc. This phase lasts 24 hours.
For the basic version the power-roles I have in mind are:Spoiler: Mafia (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Town (click to show/hide)
Additional power roles I want to add but aren't part of the basic game:Spoiler: 3rd party (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Town (click to show/hide)
Aesthetically I'm thinking this works within a cyberpunk theme.
Thoughts?
Let me see if I get this right:
So there's two voting sessions and a night phase.
In each voting session, we vote to not only take a 'life' of a player, but also give that 'life' to another. I imagine that, once you run out of lives you are 'dead'.
From there, the roles involve taking, removing, protecting, or adding to people's lives.
I like the central theme of it. I'm not sure the 'second phase' is needed, though. I see the goal: you have two lives and those lives each get a vote. However, if I want to lynch PlayerX then I have no reason to vote for him once then leave him alone. I'll want ALL of his lives from the getgo. As such, it might be best just to have one day phase. As for how to handle the lives issue, there's two ways to handle the lynch vote as I see it:
1. One life= one vote, and lynch kills ALL lives. Would be tricky to balance but would be easier to manage than #2
2. Multiple voting boards. I'll explain:
Say I had 2 lives. Voting board #1 starts up and we vote as normal, with everyone having 1 vote. However, since I have TWO lives, I can use my second life to start a second Voting board (#2). Only people with a second life can vote on Voting Board #2. If you have a third life, you can vote in Voting Board #3 and so on. Of course, in most cases, people will dump all of their votes on the same person.
so if WTF! has 1 life, I have 2 lives PlayerX has 3 lives, and Litia has 4 Lives. I vote for PLayerX, PlayerX votes for me, Litia votes for WTF and WTF votes for PlayerX. The result will be this:
Voting Board #1
PlayerX[2]: WTF!, Dakarian
Dakarian[1]: PlayerX
WTF![1]:Litia
Voting Board #2
PlayerX[1]: Dakarian
Dakarian[1]: PlayerX
WTF![1]:Litia
Voting Board #3
Dakarian[1]: PlayerX
WTF![1]:Litia
Voting Board #4
WTF![1]:Litia
Everyone can vote in #1 since we all have one life. This results in PlayerX losing a life.
Only people with two lives can vote in #2. This results in a 3 way tie. Nothing happens.
Same for #3, two way tie.
Only Litia has 4 lives so she can vote in #4, which results in WTF! losing a life.
Result: PlayerX goes down to 2 lives and WTF! is lynched.
Of course, now that I see it in action, it makes MUCh more sense to NOT just dump all votes on the same person all of the time. You're free to use your votes however you wish.
It's crazy, but it keeps teh spirit of the 'multiple votes with multiple lives' idea and gives a lot of power towards those that can collect a lot of lives.
Many of the other features can remain, such as the town being able to vote on who gets the lives. Perhaps have it so that the lives are evenly spread through the town in the order of the vote. i.e. Thus in the above example, 2 lives were taken (PlayerX and WTF!). The 'granting vote' works as follows (note, 1 player, 1 vote.. you get no additional power for having additoinal lives. Too much feedback loop of POWER):
Litia: 4 votes
PlayerY: 6 votes
Dakarian: 1 vote
WTF!: 5 votes
The lives are given out one at a time top to down. In other words, PlayerY and Litia get a life. If 3 lives were up for grabs, WTF would also get 1. if 4 lives, We ALL would get a life.
As far as the roles, the only role I have issue with is the Hacker. Seems way too powerful and, honestly, I like the idea of most of the roles being based on the life system. Maybe a person who gains power based on how many lives they have.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on July 01, 2013, 11:54:57 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 02, 2013, 01:14:50 am
OH MY GOD IS IT TRUE? IS IT TRUE? HE'S ALIIIIIIIIIIVE! OH MY GOD HE'S ALIVE!Are we sure he's alive, and not, in fact, a zombie?
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2013, 01:34:22 am
He's back.
I'd side with him on the Hacker too. All those abilities packed into one doesn't sound like a good combination.
Post by: Griffionday on July 02, 2013, 02:53:30 am
Otherwise, I like the idea on how votes are handled based on lives as that means the people how gain power were voted into the power by the players. I REALLY like the voting board idea, and already have ideas of how I can work that into the flavor.
Post by: dakarian on July 02, 2013, 03:28:58 am
Dakarian is a reworking of the name Ian Dakar, which is the name of a magician and member of the Martyr's Blade, a group who had dedicated themselves to preserving their world from an ancient threat yet failed to do so in the final hour. He survived the encounter and lived the rest of his days redeeming himself by rescuing another land, far from his own, from multiple threats outside and within.
He also served as my first proper step into the land of MUDs and, thus, gaming in general.
I would say he is far from a legend and is very much fathomable.
I also find the term odd considering we still have a number of people here who have been among these forums long before I knew what a 'bay12' was.
As far as my status.. for now, I'm here. Among the games, not so much due to not being able to answer the question "How long will I be able to stay." but for now I can lend what 2 cents I can offer.
MEANWHILE:
Quote
generally in a vanilla setup everybody claims the same role (vanilla townie) as well, so the invuln player would mostly need to be very good at normal scumhunting tactics. this is a mafia game after all. also, keep in mind that the invuln player has control of the only (excluding changeling) cross-faction chat.
Faction 0: (allied to invuln) 1 player, 1-shot bulletproof, or possibly a 1-shot auto-redirect to a random target. if game is large gets an ally with a 1-shot protect or 1-shot-auto-bodyguard (if the person you're protecting gets NKd, you die instead) (ally's wincon is that you survive, not that they do themselves, if they're last one standing everybody loses.)
Faction 1: (weak faction) lots of players, no individual power roles, 1 mafiakill (named different but effect is the same)
Faction 2: (strong faction) 1 changeling, can either NK or replace someone each night. can end up with access to many faction chats if chooses targets well.
Faction 3: (moderate- faction) small party, 1 mafiakill, every member has an inspect, every member gets a 1-shot redirect.
Faction 4: (strong faction) 1 doomspeaker.
Faction 5: (moderate+ faction) small party, every member a JOAT, 1 mafiakill.
Faction 6: (weak faction) same as faction 1
and so on, the exact number of factions and what they can do will vary, but there will always be at least 3 factions, plus Faction 0 (the actual invuln player's ally). nobody will get any kind of day action. roleclaims to form alliances between factions are possible but suicidal because you will be daykilled by the invuln player pretty much instantly.
it's pretty much intended for a closed setup. not knowing exactly what roles are in the game matters.
There's two major aspects of the game here: the Invuln+survivor ally and the Faction wars. I can speak more about the second because I've run games like that.
In truth, there's one major issue that comes up in such games: Survival is the #1 goal.
To explain: In a standard mafia game, you have two sides: town and mafia..of course. The goal of the mafia is, in truth, to live. Yes, we always say "to kill the town" but, honestly, that will always happen. 1-2 people will always die each day. In the end, the mafia's true desire is to simply let that sequence run through and stay alive long enough to win.
The town's goal is vitally different: To kill. Time is against them. As such, they want one thing: to kill the mafia. Since the town has more people, seeing a few die isn't a big deal, even if it's yourself. If you can die in order to kill a mafia, you do it no matter what. Surviving to the end is useless anyway, since failing to kill the mafia means you lose.
Everything you have heard regarding Tells, 'acting town', and how to play comes from these two separate goals: One side is willing to Kill to Live, the other side is willing to Die to Kill. Most good games will have this dynamic in some form. Even if it's not a 'town/scum' relationship, there's some element of Different and Opposing objectives.
Thus we get to the issue of mass factions: Everyone has the same goal: Survive. They want themselves and their allies to survive, at all costs. As such, when they get into the day phase, everyone has the same motivation. Yes, they are rivals, but their tone, their mentality, their 'soul' is "Survive until the others die." Even the immortal has an ally that they wish to keep alive.
So what happens? Everyone will play like a Mafia: reject the day game as much as allowed, and rely on the Night. The Mafia cannot truly hunt, not even against opposing factions. They can't hunt like a town. They don't like the day. Thus the day game devolves into silence until the Night comes.
Now is this a bad thing? Maybe, maybe not. However, you must then look at the game in that aspect. What SHOULD be happening during the day game? Should there be a day game at all? Given that you've given the immortal power over the day game, the answer seems to be Yes. Given that, you now have another issue: what is the point of said day game for each player?
There's a few ways to tackle this matter. I can propose one, but it's not the best one. It's just One Idea.
Reverse the Immortal's role. One player is a Survivor and the Target of the Immortal. The Immortal's goal is to Kill that Survivor. If they do, the Immortal wins and the Survivor loses.
Thathelps the immortal issue.. there's still the issue with the factions. I'll need some time to think of that one.
Post by: Lenglon on July 02, 2013, 05:01:09 am
the gimmick i'm the most attached too is the immortal trying to identify their ally and kill everyone but that person, but you're right, there needs to be some way to distinguish his behavior from everyone else's. pup mentioned earlier that everyone would end up playing the same, and you seem to agree. I had thought that the people other than the ally would play in a manner more akin to town, but I guess i'm wrong on that. so... how to tell people apart...
looks like I'll need to add day actions, activated by keywords in people's posts, bolding/coloring unecessary... actually, for flavor, that would work better than what I had in mind...
yeah, remove all mafiakills, replace them with day-mafiakills. remove the night inspects of faction 3, make them day inspects. make faction 3's redirects able to be used once at night and once during the day. day actions are activated by hidden keywords, posting patterns, or other such actions. since actually using those requires sneaking them into conversation, people will need to establish conversation in the first place to slip them into. the invuln's ally will talk some as well, in an effort to blend in.
think that'll fix it?
Post by: Mephansteras on July 02, 2013, 11:36:39 am
You need something for people to be hunting for. A single survivor amongst a whole game of survivors isn't sufficient. The Invulnerable's Ally isn't going to be giving off a whole lot of tells, since he can't directly work with his ally.
Also, you have a lot of factions on that list. Realistically, you're only going to have 12, maybe 14 players. With six factions, plus the invulnerable player, that's maybe 6 players to pad out the factions that have more than 1 player. It's difficult to manage Small vs Large at that size.
Post by: Lenglon on July 02, 2013, 12:24:09 pm
still, the informed minority vs unimformed majority thing...
maybe i'm going about this all wrong
how about boiling the game down to its core gimmick. invuln player controls the lynch, and needs to identify their ally and lynch everyone but that person. everyone else is totally powerless, and win as long as the invuln player's ally is lynched. no nightkills, daykills, or power roles other than the invuln player.
there is a shared chat for everyone other than the invuln and the invuln-ally.
think that would work?
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 02, 2013, 12:31:17 pm
Has anyone ever tried three-player (2VT, 1VM) instant LYLO games (with hammers, of course)? You could run several in series, all in the same thread, similar to Leafsnail's Trust Mafia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=121057.msg3911376#msg3911376).
Post by: Mephansteras on July 02, 2013, 12:36:24 pm
The main issue is the core gimmick. That player is the focus of the game. You've given them almost all of the power, and everyone else's win condition is really based on that player not screwing them over.
I'd probably make it two games in one. The Invulnerable player trying to achieve their goal while everyone else tries to achieve some other goal. Give them something to do other than simply try to steer the god player away from themselves. This does two things. First, it make it a game for everyone else and less of an exercise in standing around hoping you don't get shot. Second, it could give the god player a time limit. They have to figure out who's NOT on another team. Maybe instead of making it so that the Ally wins if he's not lynched, make it so that the god player has to 'elevate' the ally. If that's a Night Action, and it goes after all the other night actions, the Ally can't just out themselves.
Yes..that could work. The god player has a one-time use power to Elevate another player. If they elevate their ally, they win. Otherwise, they lose.
Still need the rest of the details for the game (how everyone else wins and loses), but that gives a structure that makes it a bit more interesting.
Post by: griffinpup on July 02, 2013, 12:41:40 pm
Like I said over in Witches Coven, I'd be interested in short, high-intensity, low player-count, power-role light games like Vengeful Mafia. Enforced niceness would be amusing.How could you tell apart the mafia from the other two players in this situation?
Has anyone ever tried three-player (2VT, 1VM) instant LYLO games (with hammers, of course)? You could run several in series, all in the same thread, similar to Leafsnail's Trust Mafia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=121057.msg3911376#msg3911376).
Post by: Dariush on July 02, 2013, 12:43:24 pm
Has anyone ever tried three-player (2VT, 1VM) instant LYLO games (with hammers, of course)? You could run several in series, all in the same thread, similar to Leafsnail's Trust Mafia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=121057.msg3911376#msg3911376).I think that's too many people. Let's just have a single person who can be either a townie or an amnesiac jester and must either no-lynch or lynch himself, respectively, to win.
More seriously, if there's absolutely no difference between the two teams beyond a word in their PMs, then there's no game.
Post by: Shakerag on July 02, 2013, 02:22:05 pm
C9++ (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9%2B%2B)
JK9++ (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=JK9%2B%2B)
Post by: TheWetSheep on July 02, 2013, 06:08:47 pm
You could do 3-player Trust Mafia. 2 VT's, one voteless Mafia. One vote to hammer.Has anyone ever tried three-player (2VT, 1VM) instant LYLO games (with hammers, of course)? You could run several in series, all in the same thread, similar to Leafsnail's Trust Mafia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=121057.msg3911376#msg3911376).I think that's too many people. Let's just have a single person who can be either a townie or an amnesiac jester and must either no-lynch or lynch himself, respectively, to win.
More seriously, if there's absolutely no difference between the two teams beyond a word in their PMs, then there's no game.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 02, 2013, 06:48:30 pm
Trust Mafia was an interesting experiment, but webadict was able to expose the flaw. Due to the mafia's inability to shoot, a townie can issue an ultimatum to the other player whereby they force them to decide whether to shoot or not right now, and if they don't they can deduce that they are a mafia member. This makes the game very hard to win for a mafia member (they need to jump in and offer the ultimatum first, and then not get called on their bluff). If anyone has any ideas for how to fix Trust Mafia I'd be interested, but for now I've given up on making a 2 player mafia game that isn't actually just Conspiracy.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 02, 2013, 08:23:47 pm
Spoiler: Mechanics (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Errata (click to show/hide)
Post by: Toaster on July 02, 2013, 08:29:28 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on July 02, 2013, 08:32:02 pm
e: For the sake of argument, even a kill with negative priority can go through if it's the highest priority kill.
Post by: Toaster on July 02, 2013, 08:41:19 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on July 02, 2013, 08:43:35 pm
Post by: Griffionday on July 02, 2013, 08:56:49 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on July 02, 2013, 09:00:36 pm
Post by: Griffionday on July 02, 2013, 09:18:17 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on July 02, 2013, 09:27:50 pm
Also I keep thinking about whether the reward for Training should be higher, considering how hard it is to think long term in a game which could end any day.
Post by: Griffionday on July 02, 2013, 10:15:11 pm
So it would break lylo, but not be useful otherwise.
Post by: Dariush on July 03, 2013, 02:39:11 am
Post by: Leafsnail on July 03, 2013, 04:15:42 am
Investigate could be a watcher type action but that seems like it'd be pretty weak.
Post by: Dariush on July 03, 2013, 06:08:34 am
Investigate could be a watcher type action but that seems like it'd be pretty weak.Then allow investigate multi-targeting (5 points on this guy, 10 on that...).
Post by: Leafsnail on July 03, 2013, 05:55:44 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on July 03, 2013, 11:01:10 pm
Post by: Shinigami_King on July 04, 2013, 10:04:17 pm
I am thinking of an arcana or tarot mafia.
Post by: dakarian on July 05, 2013, 12:16:20 am
Post by: dakarian on July 05, 2013, 02:01:46 am
Just ran a test run of 2 rounds with 11 players making random.org choices(random choice of targets, random action, random points used with a goal of all points eventually used each night) didn't bother letting them train since, honestly, I don't think we really need a 'train' option. It showing to be rather complicated and doesn't really add anything. 100 points for everyone is fine.
First off, wow, I thought that Block would be too tricky to use but,jeesh, even with 11 people 4 out of the 6 kill attempts were blocked. That was with me messing up and only doing 1Y blocking power, though that was more than enough to effectively stop someone (the only kills that went through were people not targetted by blocks)
What was hard to make useful, though, is track. I ended up with a lot of people who saw folks who made kill attempts but without knowing who they targetted. Include the fact that everyone missed the actual killer, it would guarantee a mislynch.
OTOH, In both of the rounds, someone ended up doing a high action Invesigate and flat out found out who made the kill.
As such, with my horribly set up testing ground, I state this:
Kill and block are overall well set up. I was wondering why wouldn't everyone just dump 1-5 points in a kill until I saw 3 kill attempts and realized the 'largest points pass' rule. Turns the thing into a sort of Price is Right game.
Track seems under powered. Either you push it HARD and hope you hit the right person or you get what is sure to be a false positive. Perhaps have it so that, for every skill they do that's 100-3X you get to see the target but not the action (i.e. if I 30 tracked litia, 21 killed dakarian, and 5 blocked Vector and you Tracked me for 7, you will see that I went to Litia and Dakarian's place). 100-X = you also see the action. If you did something to someone twice, you see it twice (went to Litia's house ten went back again)
Investigate: The 3X version (see non-kill actions) is too weak as is, but can be useful with the Tracking change, since if you saw I went to Litia's place and Litai died, the Investigator can find out that I did a non-kill action on Litia. The X version too strong as it's basically a "Kill that guy, NOW" button. You have the day game but that's essentually trying to WIFOM vs a Cop result. Perhaps have it so that, regardless of if someone dies, you see every person who killed with a 100-A or more point kill (you invesigate for 50, I tried to kill for 30, Litia used 70 points, Vector used 50 points and we all failed, you see that Litia and vector had made kill attempts).
That turns Investigate into both a tool to weed out suspects on the weaker versoin and find new suspects in the stronger version. An Investigate+track would be needed to make a sure fire spot on a killer
and again, don't think Train is needed at all. Already enough in the game to make it interesting without it.
Overall, looks very crazy-go-fun.
Post by: Dariush on July 05, 2013, 03:23:58 am
Post by: dakarian on July 05, 2013, 03:33:20 am
In essence, it would make Track into a..well, track while Investigate checks role. Track shows where I went while Investigate who's what I've done. Besides, I think that my version of Investigate is a game breaker: Set it high enough to catch kills and if only one person tried to kill (i.e. there's only 5 people left) then it's instant catch.
Perhaps make it so that Investigate is multi-target and sees all actions that are 100-X. Then remove track's '100-X' version. You can effectively Investigate 75/Track 25 a person and know almost everythiing about them.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 05, 2013, 07:54:36 am
Realistically, I'd expect most players to try to kill on most nights. "Track" is mainly useful for catching people in lies and can exonerate/ implicate people if a successful investigation action is also used, particularly if the successful kill used a lot of points. I think the proposed change would make it weaker and also introduce a problem - putting more points into track under your system would actually potentially make it worse, since you'd pick up extra irrelevant actions without knowing how many points were put into them. In order to avoid a "more points makes the action weaker" situation you'd really have to tell the player how many points were put into each action. Your investigate change proposal suffers from the same issue - you don't really want to catch anyone except the person who put the most points into kill, so again putting more points into it would actually dilute its power.
I guess the changes could be ok if you were told how many points were used in each action you found (except in the case of investigate 100-X), but I feel like it'd be hard to actually conclusively catch someone even if they're using a lot of points in their kill.
Post by: dakarian on July 05, 2013, 11:30:40 pm
As such, I actually can imagine that any night where the majority of the group tries to kill will, essentually lead to the final day as there would be too many 'kill' false positives, far too few investigations/tracks/blocks to sort them, and it would be easy to act like a "killer who's kill failed" right along side everyone else.
Personally, I'd spend the first few nights track/block/investigating like crazy and lynching them down, then trying for the kill later on.
Btw, I think I see how Train comes into play. If the last 3 players don't train at all, in order to win, they'd have to do 91 kill/ 5 block, 4 block, effectively picking one person to fully block (100-(2*5)=90) and one person to miss. If they trained, though, they can effectively block both players and ensure a win.
True, it's 'it breaks lylo but does nothing else' but does it really need to do anything else? If you plan to win early, you try to target someone with JUST enough points to get a kill in and hope to slip through. If you plan to win midgame you do so by the group forgetting you and realizing too late they didn't watch you. If you plan to win late game, you train up and try to catch the killers so that you effectively will win at the 3-person. Sort of a risk-reward thing.
All for letting people see the points used.
To be fully honest, what I'd like to see is this game in action to see how it'll roll. It's hard to tell just what information everyone will need until we see how the day game works. There's already a call in another thread for Experimental games that may be broken and this one very much looks interesting.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 06, 2013, 08:29:49 am
Obviously there's a balance to strike between trying to make your own kill, looking for other people's kills and powering up for later (if you could hide the fact that you were training previously you'd have free points to spend on future nights).
Post by: Shinigami_King on July 06, 2013, 10:26:48 pm
Post by: dakarian on July 06, 2013, 11:36:59 pm
Analyzing.. note that I'm thinking as i'm writing here
There seems to generally be three stages to the game:
Early game: Larger number of players. No patterns to try to figure out on the players. That'll result in players randomly performing their actions.
Mid game: fewer players and now patterns and play styles are showing up. actions are now directed as people are now having a plan in order to win (or at least, not lose)
Last Day: 3 player game at night. Win is basically determined by how well you Trained in order to out block everyone or, if no outright winner there, a guessing game as to who to block and who to kill.
The Last Day is, to me, balanced thanks to the Training system. I was foolish to throw that item out. Just having 6 points (20 points in Train for three days) is more than enough to turn the tide into a full win in your favor. BAH, if your opponents didn't train, ONE POINT is enough to guarantee the win. As such, whoever trains more wins. However, you sacrifice your early game, risking both losing to an earlier successful mafia or simply being NKed. Thus you have to plan to fight for the end game here, opting to balance Blocks (to avoid dying), investigates/tracks (to keep others from winning) and Train (to help you win the end). I can see a person try to do a 100 Train all game but that's similar to someone doing a 100 Kill day 1 and attempting to slip by. In the end, I think I really like the risk and reward and the planning required to pull it off.
So the question comes to how the other games work out: To recap the original rules (officially throwing out my suggestions)
You can Kill with a balanace between keeping below the radar (lower points) and actually making the kill (higher points). Think Price is Right
You can Track: Shows how much into Kill they used (thus both if they tried to kill and the chance they made the kill), or, if strong enough, their target as well
Block: Effectivey stop a person from killing
Investigate: Show all nonkill actions or, if strong enough, show everyone that tried to kill the person.
train: talked about earlier.
Ok, let's say you made a kill for 100 points on someone who no one else targetted, and won. Anyone that tracks you will see that you went all out and that you aimed at the victim: confirmed killer. Anyone that investigates will know you are the only killer: confirmed
In fact, if someone decides to go with a high point Investigate, so long as you are the only target, you will be doomed. At most, 2 people will target the same person, which can be figured out by deduction.
My worry, though, comes in if a person kills another, and there isn't a 100-X track or Investigate
I just can't really see an example of a low-point Investigate doing anything. Yes, you can see that, say, Litia did a Block on PlayerX, but what would that really gain? Litia can still kill the same player so knowing that she blocked doesn't stop that. As such, Investigate seems to be an 'go big or go home' skill. It DOES make an odd situation, though: if you are killing, you will WANT to aim at someone who others will try to hit. It's the only way to dodge Investigation.
Track is pretty useful in any form. Chances are, you'll get to see if someone tries to kill and knowing the power used will give you an idea of whether they succeeded. Meanwhile, if the kill is high enough it's an instant confirm (both in that you get to see the target and, chances are, they succeeded anyway).
Thus I guess my fear is if the players didn't get the killer caught in a track. Investigate right now, is either a direct Stop on any killer or giving information that doesn't lead to any killer at all. Meanwhile, while I imagine there should be a big question of 'where di you use your points' there's really nothing to investigate THAT element. If I, as the killer, say I was blocking X, Y, and Z, and a high level Investigate/track wasn't done on me, there's nothing to say that I'm lying and again, day 1 scumhunting isn't reliable yet by itself. It makes me think that a mechanic for seeing what someone did could feed into that "What did you do" concept.
A few ideas:
What would happen if all blocks and tracks informed the other person. i.e. (person blocked you). No power level, all skills work the same. Without power levels, you couldn't use it alone to track anyone, but it would present a check and balance. For example, if I kill someone and Track you, I could claim I was JUST tracking you. Note that if you did a kill (that didn't succeed) I would have to balance the amount of Track I claim so that it would match the amount of kill you applied (If kill attempt for 50, I couldn't claim a Track of 50 since I'd need to know your target). This would match with another item
You MUST use all of your points. You can't claim that you just didn't use 20 points.
If you investigate, it becomes public knowledge. NOT the result, just that you did it. That way you can't just claim 70 points in investigate after someone else told what happened.
(note you CAN claim that you put all your points in Train, but, honestly, if I knew someone was dumping more Train points than me, I would try to win early and aim a kill at them since I wouldn't have a chance at winning at End Game)
All that with the skills left as is. Low level investigate keeps people from just claiming that they did passive things to dead players and high level investigate ensures that you CAN'T just fling 100 points in kill and hope no one notices. Track and Block are your defensive tools (only for end game? Meh, you can fling small bits of block around and really ruin quite a few killers. It also helps your kill. Instead of doing 30, you can do 20 and fling 10 block. A killer doing 40 would not only lose to you but would also look worse to investigations). Train is if you want to do end game stuff. Meanwhile, you're hoping SOMEONE did an investigate each night.
(yes, the public report of investigate means that if no one did it the killer knows, but.. honestly, that sounds neat in a "OMG EVERYONE PANIC" sort of way. Besides, it feels meh to have an entire plan set up only for someon to say "100 Investigate. Lynch HIM!")
Post by: webadict on July 11, 2013, 09:00:43 pm
"Hahaha!" laughed the Evil Wizard Emperor, and the gates surrounding the throne room sealed shut. "Fool! You have fallen into my trap!" Gas poured in from the sides. The Chosen Heroes shielded themselves, but it was too late. Screams rang out.
"I have taken over the minds of a few of your group. There is no way out other than defeating me! But, in order to do that, you must kill your friends!"
And the Chosen Heroes at first refused, but realized the futility in resistance. They had already known the risks in fighting the Empire, and now they must finish the fight. The war would continue unless they stopped the Emperor. Here and now.
---
I decided to make a game similar to Magic Mafia because I enjoyed the ability aspects, but I felt like I wanted a bit more control over the roles. So, instead, I decided to come up with Final Boss Mafia. You're given your role (say, the Spunky Summoner), and are given a list of Abilities, Items, and Equipment to use. As an example, here:
Quote
Spunky Summoner
(Ability, Magic) Summon, Unicorn [Enemy]: Summon forth Einhorn, who gallops forth, pinning the enemy to the ground. The enemy is unable to make any Attacks, but may use Items and Magics during this Night.
(Attack) Staff [Enemy]: You smack the enemy with your staff, causing a random negative Effect to apply to them.
(Attack) Handle [Ally]: You reverse your staff and smack an ally with the staff handle, causing a random beneficial Effect to apply to them. You're not sure when you figured out that your staff worked like that, but it does.
(Item, Passive) Mending Cloak: Negative Effects applied to you are removed immediately. Yay!
I'm thinking of making the setup a sort of known role type, so that each player will be given a particular role that is known by all players. This is mostly to allow for better flavor and roleplaying, which I would enjoy. However, it is possible for these roles to be wrong or lies, for protection. I've yet to come up with all parts of this game, but I felt like any additions would be easy to expound on here, plus I could get an idea of popularity with the idea.
Anyhow, it probably won't start for a bit, as I'm a bit busy.
Post by: Vector on July 11, 2013, 09:03:08 pm
Music! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jtXIb7KUfw)
Post by: notquitethere on July 12, 2013, 03:27:04 pm
So there'd be a list of possible alignments and roles and everyone would randomly get given one at the beginning. Each day cycle, people would have the chance to claim a role or alignment. Then it works like the card game cheats: a vote against someone marks out whether the people think they're lying. If they are lying and they're majority voted then they are lynched, but if they're telling the truth and they're majority voted then their role is revealed and they get to live. Scum obviously have an incentive to lie here, but there'll also be a perverse incentive for scum to claim as scum, balanced by town-aligned vigilante roles. I'm not sure whether everyone would have to claim etc., but I think there might be something in this liars dice/cheats kind of set up.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2013, 04:41:14 pm
I've been thinking a lot about role claims and alignment claims recently. We've had a spate of games where scum and third parties have claimed. Was thinking it might be a fun idea to have a game revolving around claims.Uh... No, that idea doesn't make much sense. I mean, if a scum claims scum, and is lynched, he gets to live, which means he's unlynchable, right? Well, then you've basically moved the game to the Night game. I mean, town can just claim town and not get lynched, and scum can just claim scum and not get lynched. Or, you know, claim town, and therefore it's the same as usual, right?
So there'd be a list of possible alignments and roles and everyone would randomly get given one at the beginning. Each day cycle, people would have the chance to claim a role or alignment. Then it works like the card game cheats: a vote against someone marks out whether the people think they're lying. If they are lying and they're majority voted then they are lynched, but if they're telling the truth and they're majority voted then their role is revealed and they get to live. Scum obviously have an incentive to lie here, but there'll also be a perverse incentive for scum to claim as scum, balanced by town-aligned vigilante roles. I'm not sure whether everyone would have to claim etc., but I think there might be something in this liars dice/cheats kind of set up.
Post by: notquitethere on July 12, 2013, 06:02:25 pm
Post by: birdy51 on July 12, 2013, 07:24:21 pm
There are many shenanigans that can be pulled off with that concept to reinforce the idea. For instance, I've been playing with the idea of an kind elderly old woman who can give people cookies each night that produce random bonuses. And an evil counterpart. Is it a good cookie? Or is it a cookie that tastes like DEATH ITSELF!
Post by: dakarian on July 14, 2013, 12:24:22 am
Yeah I see what you're saying. The way I'm envisioning it is that there'd be majority third party roles, including roles which have powers attached to other people's role claims.
Well, I see the premise. The trick, though, is that the 'ones to go after' aren't the mafia but 'who is lying'. A mafia telling the truth is, in essence, 'town' while a townie claiming to be a cop is, in essence, 'scum'. Remember that what makes scum scum isn't the label, but in being the informed minority.
I'd say, remove the whole 'scum can claim' element. There's no way I can see in a way for the scum to claim honestly without ruining the system. you CAN have a game where everyone starts off a vanilla (town/scum.) then have a list of roles that they can claim. Thus during the day, you can publically declare "I am a cop" and BOOM, they are a cop. No one has any power until they claim something.
You can play it strait and just give the mafia a 'mafiakill' as normal. Then just make sure there's role breaking combos (ie.. two people can't claim doc at the same turn, or else a a doc can't protect another doc or a cop). It'll require good balancing but can be an interesting game.
If you want a bit more 'crazygonutz' then let them choose whatever roles they want, but the roles aren't guaranteed (i.e. a Cop but not guaranteed a Sane cop).
You can also give people features that alter their powers. I.e. a SK who doesn't gain their claimed roll but, instead, gains the powers of another person. Depending on how you set it up, it could then become something crazy or even turn into a Bastard Mod with a puzzle inside.
Don't go crazy on third party roles though. Third parties are very tricky to make work and very easy to ruin a game with.
@birdy
9 Geriatric Players. if nothing is done, they die in Day 4
1 Treatment Doc. Each night they can Treat a player so that they won't die.
No Mafia kill, there is a lynch. No Lynch results in a guaranteed town lynch and, thus, is not recommended.
Thus each night the doc tries to choose a person to live. They cannot choose themselves.
Thus the idea: after 3 nights, the doc has chosen 3 people. On Day 4, the rest die. Thus:
1. If the town accidentally lynches the doctor, they lose automatically. The Mafia wins when the town is down to 1 person regardless of their survival.
2. If the doctor chooses 3 townies, the town wins.
3. If the doctor chooses 1 mafia, Day 4 is Lylo.
4. If the doctor chooses 2 or more mafia, Mafia win.
Other roles can exist, but no killing roles
Sound workable?
Edit: Just spotted an ugly issue with that. Day 1 Doctor claim. Without a killing role, there's nothing stopping the doctor from claiming. it doesnt' destroy the game but it does eliminate the risk of lynching the doctor and robs a lot of the game itself.
Perhaps give the mafia a one-shot kill. Thus the doctor has to not only avoid being spotted but they can't even claim on day 3 who they choose (or else mafia will just kill one of the Treated, ensuring a win). The doctor has to not only remain hidden but also has to make sure no one can tell who they chose before day 4.
Post by: Vector on July 14, 2013, 12:25:50 am
Post by: Dariush on July 14, 2013, 02:34:32 am
Post by: dakarian on July 14, 2013, 03:23:49 am
As far as scumsided, note that those win conditions aren't combined. If the doc picks 3 townies, town wins. If the town lynches the scum, town wins. They don't need to do both. Finding 3 townies out of 9 people is technically much easier than finding 2 scum from the same group. The scum also lose their ability to wipe out strong townies to weaken the day game. I'd say it's slightly townsided in the end. To even get a chance for scum to win lylo they have to not only act town but convince the Doc that they are MORE townie than anyone else. Simply making others look worse isn't enough. If both scum are simply 'meh perhaps' to the Doc, it's game over, town wins.
Probably the hardest part of the game is keeping the Doc safe. Docs, by their nature, act scummy. Given HOW Scummish the Doc role is (Lynch is more of a problem than a benefit, more powerful in night than day, MUST live to win) it'll be VERY hard for them to play town. If they fail, though, the scum will 1-shot or the town will lynch the doc and it's game over.
Assuming the doc plays well, it's actually pretty townsided. If scum cant' find the doc, they have to not only be picked but also either shoot another Treated (a 2 out of 5 chance) or win lylo.
I have two ideas linked by one flavor concept: The cure to the disease can only be given on the third night. The doctor only has time to treat 3 people in that night. Meanwhile, the Mafia stole ONE cure.
This does two things:
1. The doctor doesn't pre-cure. Instead they Choose who to Treat. That means that they make the choice and act Night 3. This is why Doc dying = town loss: everyone but 1 mafia dies. This also means the doc is free to choose afte the third night, so no worries of picking someone Night 1 then the person being lynched day 2.
2. It eliminates the 'doc picks 3 townies and WIN'. I realize nwo that with this item in place the town's best bet is to just pick randomly and stay silent. Chances are, they'll lynch 3 non-doc townies, the doc will pick 3 townies and the mafia's one-shot won't matter. Going random will, chances are, result in 3 townies and a mafia with a 1-shot: basically a lylo (since mafia will NOT shoot before a lynch unless they are foolish :P) and a nasty one for the town. The town is best off scumhunting to try to kill the mafia early or, at least, giving the Treated few ammo to use in lylo.
It also makes a very interesting mafiawin possiblity: Doc picks 2 townies and a mafia, the mafia self-cures the OTHER person. 2 townies, 2 mafia, mafia win. For mafia to win this way:
1. They BOTH have to avoid being lynched for three days
2. They need the Doc to Treat one of them
3. They need to know who the Doc picked and, thus, self-treat the other
If they can pull that off then, imo, they win. same for if they can get the Doc to Treat both mafia.
Which makes daytime scumhunting to kill at least ONE of the mafia, Very Important.
Post by: Nerjin on July 14, 2013, 11:25:25 am
I don't know if that's a viable strategy but it seem to be pretty helpful to me.
Post by: birdy51 on July 14, 2013, 12:01:17 pm
The Town obviously needs to kill off the Scum. Scum will target the Town in return. The trick comes from the fact that the Doctors want neither party to die. Their goal is to try to keep as many players alive until a certain day, where their win condition is fulfilled. Sort of a reverse survivor role.
Post by: dakarian on July 14, 2013, 04:24:54 pm
Couldn't the townies just say "Hey, no lynching alright? First person to put up any sort of vote on someone MUST be scum right? So now we have a TON of townies who aren't getting killed [2 a night]. Plus since the vigilante is town aligned why doesn't he, whomever he is, also not kill? No we're losing 1 townie a night. So doc... do your thing."1: no lynch = random town lynch (that's not random. It WILL pick a townie and CAN pick the doc) so choosing not to lynch doesn't save anyone and may end the game. If the doc doesn't get random lynched you'll end up with this situation:
I don't know if that's a viable strategy but it seem to be pretty helpful to me.
Also you didn't notice; the '1 shot kill' is held by the mafia.
3 days of no talk: 3 townies die
Doc, chances are, picks 3 townies. Mafia gets their 1 to live.
Day 4, 3 townies, 1 mafia with a kill. Lylo with NO past day talk to be useful.
That's the town's best outcome from the situation. Meanwhile, they risk the doc randomlynching and the doc treats one mafia/mafia treats other mafia townloss (2 mafia, 2 town remain).
Town's best choice is to scumhunt to try to nab the mafia early or, failing that, try to lynch at least one while the doc uses the talk to find townies. Then if lylo occurs you can use the past 3 days to determine who is who.
---
@birdy
hmm, Very Interestink. Honestly, you could do that without the Geriatric and make it so that the Doctor's win condition forces the other's loss. I can even see the flavor: Town/mafia conducting vigilante justice whiel the doctors try to bring the Real Police in to stop the whole mess. Sort of like doomsayers. Could give the doctors a way to try to protect against the lynch (i.e. Night 1 the choose a person. If that person is lynche day 2 then they survive). For town/mafia to win they have to get around the doctors.
Could also work with Geriatric, though it'll be trickier to combine "town kills mafia" "mafia kills town" "doctor saves people" and everyone just up and dying after a certain point. It can be done and if so it might be glorious.
Post by: birdy51 on July 14, 2013, 06:42:38 pm
@birdy
hmm, Very Interestink. Honestly, you could do that without the Geriatric and make it so that the Doctor's win condition forces the other's loss. I can even see the flavor: Town/mafia conducting vigilante justice whiel the doctors try to bring the Real Police in to stop the whole mess. Sort of like doomsayers. Could give the doctors a way to try to protect against the lynch (i.e. Night 1 the choose a person. If that person is lynche day 2 then they survive). For town/mafia to win they have to get around the doctors.
Could also work with Geriatric, though it'll be trickier to combine "town kills mafia" "mafia kills town" "doctor saves people" and everyone just up and dying after a certain point. It can be done and if so it might be glorious.
I like the idea of a doctor that prevents the Lynch from happening at all. If they are smart about it, they can build their case on a player, only to pull the rug out on both the Town and the Mafia in one fell swoop when they fall for it, thus wasting a lynch. I imagine a duo of doctors, one to protect against lynchs, and the other to protect against Night Kills. Two purely innocent characters caught up in the middle of a warzone. It's gloriously thematic. I think you are on to something.
Also, we may have a slightly different interpretation on how the Geriatric Mafia works. What I am looking at is a modification of the "Suicidal" attribute, found here:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Suicidal
Both Townies and Scum players are given situations in which they will die. Only the doctors can save them from death.
Post by: dakarian on July 14, 2013, 08:16:56 pm
I was picturing that example of the suicidal townie: unless something is done, the person dies in x days. The 'something' being a doctor acts on them. However:
"Their goal is to try to keep as many players alive until a certain day, where their win condition is fulfilled. Sort of a reverse survivor role."
reminds me of "You can't die yet. You're an important sacrifice."
Doctors don't keep the Geriatrics alive past the final day. They try to keep them alive UNTIL the final day by stopping the lynch/kill. For example, 13 people, Day 4 deadline. Normally, day 4 would end up with 7 people. However, if the docs stop 2 deaths, thus leaving 7 people alive, and one doc survives as well, the ritual is complete, everyone is sacrificed and the Doctors win. If both doctors die or they fail to stop two kills, then the ritual ends, any surviving doctors die and 5 remain for a normal lylo.
The numbers are just an example, of course.
Post by: birdy51 on July 14, 2013, 08:39:59 pm
However, the doctors being the ultimate saviors to keep the Town and the Mafia from slaughtering each other is a concept that really rings strongly to me. I may explore that a bit... Starting with the Team Third-Party Doctors
1st: Would it be worth giving them teamchat? Although they aren't scum, they are the kind of duo that would really benefit from communication. Then again, it also adds the idea that you have figure out who your ally is on your own. Players might be told they have an ally, but they won't say who he is or what his abilities are.
2nd: Do they need outside help? As it stands, they are fairly susceptible to being NKed, and it may be worth giving them a friend in their corner. What kind of friend, I'm not certain...
3rd: If there is the presence of a third team, what kind of roles would the Town and the Mafia need?
Post by: dakarian on July 14, 2013, 09:47:01 pm
(in case it's ever asked.. yes I'm currently finally finishing my watch through of fullmetal alchemist: brotherhood).
However, Birdy your flavor works out. basically it's a town that wants to perform vigilante justice and doctors that want to actually bring in the proper police forces. However, it'll take a few days to coordinate and it requires the doctors around as a relay. The deaths are sending the town into a riot however. If the doctors fail to keep enough people alive then the town will go crazy, forcing the doctors to run away to save themselves. The madness will also stop the police from being able to focus on the actual event before the town/mafia do their thing.
And bah to neutrality. The townspeople are committing murder with these lynches and the mafia are..well, the mafia. If the police show up then EVERYONE gets arrested. of course they DO live so it's the peaceful ending.
The doctors actually have the hardest job of the three. They have to live AND they have to guess who will die that day/night, and more than once. Ally chat will be a definite. Always good to use KISS when it comes to features and avoid adding more madness than you need to get the job done.
2nd and 3rd: Personally, I think it depends on two items: how many people are there and how crazy do you want it.
If there's lowish numbers, 9-11 then it can easily work with just townies, mafia, and docs. If there's larger numbers then I'd say a doctor ally (doesn't know who the doctors are) who can double someone's vote during the day (to force a tie) and roleblock during the night.
If you want crazy then...well, go crazy. Just be careful of killing and protection roles as who dies/lives is so critical to this game.
Post by: notquitethere on August 18, 2013, 05:52:18 pm
On this board there are a lot of role-heavy closed set-up games, where the nature of the roles involved are mostly unknown. This included all the games where the role possibilities are known but there are too many possibilities for this knowledge to be of much help. The only truly open games we have are the BMs where the setup possibiliities are severely limited and are known completely. However, in these games most players do not have interesting roles or abilities.
What I think would be interesting is a game where the exact roles and abilities are completely known, and everyone has a unique role and power. This would allow the fun of having lots of competing town, mafia and third-party objectives, with everyone having interesting night or day or passive powers to play with, but also allowing the more deductive players scope to scumhunt based on narrowing down possibilities.
Here's a possible open set up for a thirteen player game. Obviously it'd have to be checked for balance, but an open role-mad set-up would look something like this. I formulated this one bearing around the idea of some players using the changeling power as a one-shot to try to discern alignments at night, with the high possibility of being confounded by redirectors.
Scum x3: role-cop, night killer, godfather
Town x6: doctor, changeling, alignment-cop, tracker, redirector, vigilante (night killer)
Competing jesters x2: two players that compete to get lynched. One loses if the other is lynched first. This works well for an open set-up because both mafia and town would have an incentive to not waste the day kill on either of them. I think jesters would work best in a game where all players know that there is a jester and are on the look out for ridiculously scummy play. (Added possible fun of scum playing as if they were jesters pretending to be scum!). To confound the scum role-cops, the jesters should have two of the same powers as town, say redirector and changeling.
Survivor x1: jailor(?)
Serial killer x1: night killer
The trouble with role-heavy games is that the end can come out of nowhere, with a party with a wincon or ability set that is completely unforeseeable (Magic Mafia comes to mind). This renders much of the play futile when there are no rational assumptions that can be made about the set-up. The trouble with normal open games is that the level of player-investment in the set-up will vary considerably because most players will be able to do nothing at night and are privvy to no secret information. A role-heavy but completely open set-up would go a long way to solving these issues.
Post by: webadict on August 18, 2013, 06:02:20 pm
I'm also not sure what a Night-killer is... Do they take care of the mafiakill action? Because if so... Then it might not be so bad.
But, honestly, the bad part is the double Jesters. One Jester is bad enough, but a second one is just plain annoying. Don't do Jesters, man. The only well-played Jester there ever was was Mr.Person.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 18, 2013, 06:40:18 pm
There's a deeper problem with what you're suggesting though. If all townies have unique roles in an open game then it is usually breakable by massclaim - because the scum is forced into 1v1 counterclaims. You need to take special measures to avoid this
Post by: Leafsnail on August 18, 2013, 06:47:49 pm
In short, open setups are very vulnerable to breaking strategies, and must be designed very carefully.
Post by: notquitethere on August 18, 2013, 07:48:42 pm
Your game is fairly unbalanced. With 6 Town, 3 Mafia, and 5 Third Parties... It's going to be fairly unbalanced. One side will take a definitive lead over the others, most likely the Mafia, and then win the game through brute force.Yeah, pretty much that. If the mafia's nightkiller died or their power was swapped with changeling, then goodbye mafia nightkill.
I'm also not sure what a Night-killer is... Do they take care of the mafiakill action? Because if so... Then it might not be so bad.
But, honestly, the bad part is the double Jesters. One Jester is bad enough, but a second one is just plain annoying. Don't do Jesters, man. The only well-played Jester there ever was was Mr.Person.Aw, but I've never played with a Jester and it's the role I think I was born to play :'( I think competing Jesters would be an interesting dynamic, especially as only one of them could ever cause the lynch to be wasted (one dies if the other is lynched). Not sure double martyrs would work quite as well.
Leafsnail
It would be horrifically difficult to lynch mafia. Out of 13 players only 7 want to hit scum.Yeah, maybe one or two less 3rd parties, with more town. This was somewhat the issue in Toon Mafia at the end. Good point about the counterclaims thing. I'd have to think a bit more, while a grid-of-possibilities (ala the latest BMs) would be possible, I'd be interested in seeing if there were another solution. Maybe each side having a player with a power which can day kill someone if their ability is known (but backfires on a wrong guess), similar to in Mafia and Masons.
There's a deeper problem with what you're suggesting though. If all townies have unique roles in an open game then it is usually breakable by massclaim - because the scum is forced into 1v1 counterclaims. You need to take special measures to avoid this
Post by: webadict on August 18, 2013, 08:04:38 pm
Post by: notquitethere on August 18, 2013, 08:11:59 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 18, 2013, 08:24:30 pm
Post by: webadict on August 18, 2013, 08:28:10 pm
That's appealing, though there might be fringe cases or questions that would have to be settled beforehand. Is claiming town against the rules? Is a role claim against the rules or just abilities? Is it okay if you claim something that doesn't actually exist? Does dropping flavour clues count? What about lacing your sentences with key words from the wincon text? Or breadcrumbing but never explicitly pointing out the breadcrumb? But I think such a rule would be well worth trying— has any mod here enforced this rule?Well, it's your game, so... Whatever you want?
Yes, fully against, no as that's a method to breadcrumb, yes, that's cheating in even a regular game, not allowed. I believe it might've been implemented somewhere, but I'm not sure where.
I'd strongly advise against rules like that. They're horrendous to enforce. Having a mafia ability sortof works, but not if the mafia has investigators (unless you're going for some Death Note variant)
The point is that you'd have to simply trust the player's to realize that giving away any bits of their role is against the rules. If they think that any of this is okay, since it's only slightly bending the rules, then you simply have poor sports. The game isn't about bending the rules. It's about finding scum. There ARE some games where it's about bending the rules. Then these types of things are okay. But, just make it clear that you just want them to try to play the game, not break it.
Is it seriously that hard to not break this rule? To not try to cheat? Really?
Post by: Leafsnail on August 19, 2013, 10:36:56 am
Let's say you're a cop with a guilty on someone. Wouldn't your absolute conviction that someone's scum reveal you to the town? Do you have to pretend you don't know they're scum? How about if it's clear that only you would've made a certain vigkill last night? Why include PRs at all if you don't want them to have an impact on the day game, is the question I find myself asking. Because what you'd have is a vanilla setup where some unpredictable things happen at night and people accidentally get modkilled in the day.
Post by: notquitethere on August 29, 2013, 07:21:47 pm
Post by: webadict on August 29, 2013, 07:25:14 pm
Would a game mode where the dead could still post in thread work? They'd be able to talk about their final night's investigations and give a more trusted perspective on the play. Obviously this could be very town-biased, so it could be balanced with some players (town and scum) flipping a false alignment on death. This been done yet?Yes, but you typically remove the dead as a means to SPEED UP the game.
Post by: notquitethere on August 29, 2013, 07:28:14 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 29, 2013, 07:30:38 pm
Post by: notquitethere on August 29, 2013, 07:32:16 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 29, 2013, 07:36:27 pm
Post by: notquitethere on August 29, 2013, 07:52:35 pm
Post by: Toaster on August 29, 2013, 08:59:23 pm
Post by: webadict on August 29, 2013, 09:05:17 pm
We have that- it's called Beginner's Mafia.Point goes to Toaster.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 29, 2013, 09:06:56 pm
Post by: webadict on August 29, 2013, 09:09:34 pm
If that's the problem it'd be best solved by running a game where the mafia can't kill.Well, not necessarily. The mafia would avoid getting killed themselves, but you're right, it'd be like a countdown to lynch the scum.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 29, 2013, 09:29:06 pm
Trouble is, it'd be really hard to get concrete information without roleflips.
Post by: notquitethere on August 29, 2013, 09:30:56 pm
We have that- it's called Beginner's Mafia.Not really: dead IC's can't point out what makes the obvious-scum scum.
Post by: GlyphGryph on August 29, 2013, 10:54:58 pm
Potentially you could run some sort of completely deathless game. Maybe lynching/nightkills "mark" a player, which functions as though they're dead for the purposes of wincons but not anything else.
Trouble is, it'd be really hard to get concrete information without roleflips.
Like... the game I hosted that was played like the card-game version?
...maybe that wasn't here, though. I could have sworn it was here. But really, I think Resistance is a good type for exactly that reason.
Post by: zombie urist on August 29, 2013, 11:33:40 pm
I've been planning to rework revolution to make it more mafia-like and less scum-sided.
Post by: GlyphGryph on August 30, 2013, 12:27:30 pm
Post by: Nerjin on August 30, 2013, 06:05:54 pm
I dunno if there's call for this sorta thing but I'd like to run something for the new players that isn't TOO terribly different from the BM so that they can sorta cut their teeth on a slightly more difficult version of the mafia rule-set. Is there any call for that sorta thing?
*I can't think of what the role is actually called so I just used the term from Meph's Paranormal games.
Post by: webadict on August 30, 2013, 06:45:54 pm
Post by: Vector on September 04, 2013, 04:10:56 am
Post by: Leafsnail on September 04, 2013, 05:03:37 am
Post by: webadict on September 04, 2013, 08:08:09 am
Post by: Vector on September 04, 2013, 02:25:55 pm
Post by: TolyK on September 06, 2013, 02:42:10 pm
It's played with 3-10 players, all using basically the same roles.
First off, there are two kinds of kills - "Mafia (Mark) kills" and "Joker (Flip) kills". Mark kills just mark somebody for death (IRL: placing the mark on target's card). Flip kills also show the role immediately. All kills are "confirmed" at the beginning of the day.
The game starts with the 0th day.
Spoiler: Roles (click to show/hide)
)Win conditions:
Mafia team wins when the Town and Necromancer die.
Town team wins when the Mafia and Necromancer die.
The Joker and Redirect can win together if they're the last surviving.
The Necromancer (and zombies) win when everyone except the Necro and Zombies die.
Play goes by-turn:
Each night:
- Necromancer (except N0)
- Mafia
- Doctor
- Joker
- Redirect
Each day:
- Talking
- Vigilante (except D1)
- Talking
- Lynch
How to set up the setup:
For 8-10 players: Hand out roles randomly (any extras are left unknown).
For 6-7 players: Take out the "uninteresting" roles (Town, then Bomb or Vengeful) until there are N+2 roles left.
For 4-5 players: Each player gets 2 cards, which are their "Left" and "Right" cards, which are fixed to their spot (unless the Joker moves them). Players get as many votes as alive cards. Players win when at least one of their cards would win.
For 3 players: Same thing, but each gets 3 cards (this is just for teh lulz, usually).
Other notes:
The dead don't speak (and they don't have a deadchat until the Necro dies), and go to sleep/wake up as normal. Zombie status is fixed to the player, not the card. Oh, and it's not good sport to rat everything out, although "my role was switched" is okay. Role switches and kills only take effect after the night ends. People can do ANYTHING their role allows them to do, including killing themselves, switching their own cards, and stopping/redirecting their own death. In IRL games, people flip their own cards after Flip-killing (or redirecting to) the Bomb.
Post by: GlyphGryph on September 06, 2013, 03:44:03 pm
RULES:
Three factions: Town, Monsters, Undead
The only starting member of the Undead Faction is the Necromancer, who may place a "mark" on players. If a marked player dies, they immediately resurrect, are sent a single message from the necromancer (through the host, presumably with orders), and change faction to Undead. (Basically, strange cult)
Town
Priest (Townie) - Cleanse! Target player loses their mark if they have one (killing undead) OR Scry! Reveals to you the identity of all marked players.
Slayer (Townie) - Fight! May night kill a target. OR Investigate: Reveals whether or not the target is town. Note: Misidentifies the raised Blacksmith as non-town.
Farmer (Townie) - Sturdy: You are extra tough, and will survive a single nightkill attempt or lynch. If you are marked, you will remain marked and alive.
Blacksmith (Townie) - Strong Willed: A strong independent streak allows you to maintain your team alignment even if you are raised as undead. If you turn undead, you will still count as "marked" (and killed if the mark is removed), and investigation by the Sheriff or Slayer will show your faction as being Not Town, even though you are still town aligned and only win if the town wins.
Thief (Townie) - Lurk! Any night actions taken against you will fail OR Case! Watch a player, and see anyone that targets them and anyone they target.
Sheriff (Townie) - Jail! You can have the town guards toss someone in jail for the night, preventing them from being able to take an action OR Investigate: Reveals whether or not target is town. Note: Misidentifies Blacksmith Zombie as non-town, and a non-raised Necromancer as town.
Mafia gets one shared night kill ability, as usual
Werewolf (Mafia) - Regeneration: You will survive a single kill or lynch attempt.
Howl! That infernal sound! Scramble target player's night action - it hits a random player instead.
Demon (Mafia) - Extraplanar: Killing you banishes you. Being marked has no effect.
Possess! By manipulating the target's mind, you can cause their night action to fail completely.
Undead (third party)
Necromancer (Undead) - Mark! Target player becomes marked.
Appears as town from the Sheriff's investigate.
At the beginning of the game, choose a player to mark (it may be yourself). If a marked character is killed, they return to life as a Zombie, a member of the undead faction that lacks any special abilities. If a marked Necromancer is killed, they instead rise as a Lich and if a Zombie is killed (or has their mark removed) they are removed from the game completely.
Raised Roles:
Lich(Undead) - Mark! Target player becomes marked.
Zombie(Undead) - If this players Mark is removed, they are killed.
Things to note:
If a player is lynched and live through it, they are obviously a zombie! ... or a farmer on their second wind, of course.
However, if they are nightkilled only the player that nightkilled them will be aware that they should have died.
Lynched players have to have been marked on the night before being lynched to be raised as a zombie.
Players will not know if they have been marked, but they WILL know if they have been targeted by Cleanse.
The farmer will be informed that they were night killed - it won't fail silently.
So... yeah. What do you guys think? Any obvious problems, and ideas on how to fix them?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 04, 2013, 12:25:14 pm
http://puzzle.cisra.com.au/2008/quantumwerewolf.html
My thoughts:
Firstly, having a publicly available probabilities table makes the game breakable by massclaim. I'd make them private.
Secondly, should the Seer role work even if they were dead at the time that they made an inspection? The rules aren't too clear on that. I guess the answer is probably yes, because otherwise someone could be mislead if they become a Seer.
Thirdly, I've worked out the solution to the puzzle that breaks the game. It might be too obvious, so I have a suggested rule change that would remove the breaking strategy.
Post by: Persus13 on November 02, 2013, 02:54:39 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on November 02, 2013, 03:06:13 pm
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jungle_Republic
The basic setup:
- 6 townies
- 1 seer (basically a cop that only detects whether someone is a werewolf or not)
- 3 mafia members (they don't have a kill)
- 2 werewolves (they do have a kill)
The idea is that the werewolves have the advantage of having a kill, while the mafia have a numerical advantage and no cop to deal with. The mafia also have slightly favourable endgame rules.
I would make a few changes though, to make the win conditions easier to understand and to prevent draws/ weird endgames:
- If a day starts with exactly one town player alive and scum still remaining, the townie will kill themselves. That's because a lone townie can't possibly win and leaving them alive creates kingmaker situations.
- If a scumteam ever makes up half or more of the living players, they win. The only exception to this is if the living players are half werewolf and half mafia - in this case the mafia wins.
- The town can vote to no lynch, but they can't do it twice in a row if no kill was made during the night after the first one.
- Similarly, the werewolves can decide to not kill, but they can't do it twice in a row if no lynch was made after the first one. These rules are there to prevent draws, which otherwise can happen because no-one wants to make the kill.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 02, 2013, 03:09:28 pm
Post by: Persus13 on November 05, 2013, 11:13:18 am
So I was think off some sort of Mafia game based on the card game Bang! In the game there are four types of roles, all except the sheriff are hidden at the start of the game and each have different wincons.
Sheriff: Known from the start, has an extra life. Wants to kill the Outlaws and the Renegade.
Deputies: Goal is to keep the Sheriff alive. Want to kill the Outlaws and the Renegade.
Outlaws: Want to eliminate the Sheriff.
Rengade: A Survivor. This means he must kill the sheriff last otherwise the Outlaws win.
Does anyone know how to make this balanced and playable?
Post by: webadict on November 05, 2013, 11:53:09 am
Leafsnail, your setup seems a lot like Supernatural only with two scumteams, and I think I'd love to play it.Remove the Renegade or change his wincon. His wincon is basically the wincon of the Outlaws, except it looks like he can't win with the Outlaws, so he has to kill them too. So, he isn't a survivor at all. He's more of a serial killer. However, he's worse than one, since he can't kill who he wants.
So I was think off some sort of Mafia game based on the card game Bang! In the game there are four types of roles, all except the sheriff are hidden at the start of the game and each have different wincons.
Sheriff: Known from the start, has an extra life. Wants to kill the Outlaws and the Renegade.
Deputies: Goal is to keep the Sheriff alive. Want to kill the Outlaws and the Renegade.
Outlaws: Want to eliminate the Sheriff.
Rengade: A Survivor. This means he must kill the sheriff last otherwise the Outlaws win.
Does anyone know how to make this balanced and playable?
Do the Deputies have any abilities? Something like a protect or inspect? Because otherwise the Sheriff dies on N2 with an Outlaw win. Knowing what those might be would help balance the game.
Post by: Persus13 on November 05, 2013, 11:56:45 am
Bang is a card game, so people have cards they use to shoot people, cause their turn to end, etc. so that's where people's abilities come from. Secondly, everyone usually starts with 4 lifepoints and the sheriff has 5. However, thanks for the input, those are issues I should focus on.Leafsnail, your setup seems a lot like Supernatural only with two scumteams, and I think I'd love to play it.Remove the Renegade or change his wincon. His wincon is basically the wincon of the Outlaws, except it looks like he can't win with the Outlaws, so he has to kill them too. So, he isn't a survivor at all. He's more of a serial killer. However, he's worse than one, since he can't kill who he wants.
So I was think off some sort of Mafia game based on the card game Bang! In the game there are four types of roles, all except the sheriff are hidden at the start of the game and each have different wincons.
Sheriff: Known from the start, has an extra life. Wants to kill the Outlaws and the Renegade.
Deputies: Goal is to keep the Sheriff alive. Want to kill the Outlaws and the Renegade.
Outlaws: Want to eliminate the Sheriff.
Rengade: A Survivor. This means he must kill the sheriff last otherwise the Outlaws win.
Does anyone know how to make this balanced and playable?
Do the Deputies have any abilities? Something like a protect or inspect? Because otherwise the Sheriff dies on N2 with an Outlaw win. Knowing what those might be would help balance the game.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 05, 2013, 12:52:56 pm
Post by: Persus13 on November 05, 2013, 01:00:13 pm
I did a Bang variant called Prince's Guard (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117744.0). It was interesting, but had a lot of issues as a forum game. Worth reading if you're trying to make a game off of Bang, though.Thanks, I'll check it out.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 05, 2013, 09:22:22 pm
Post by: Persus13 on November 05, 2013, 09:31:41 pm
Well it's not really like Supernatural, Supernatural is a closed setup while JR is open.What's the difference? (i'm still a newb when it comes to Mafia)
Post by: Leafsnail on November 05, 2013, 09:56:49 pm
Semi-open - the players know what roles are possible, but not necessarily how many of each there are. Examples: Paranormal Mafia, Beginner's Mafia.
Closed - the players do not know what roles will be in the game - there can be totally novel and strange roles present that the mod hides. Examples: Every Toon Mafia, BYOR mafias.
I guess Supernatural isn't quite closed because you are given hints about what town roles there are, but it's not even semi-open as the scum abilities are completely obscured.
Post by: Persus13 on November 05, 2013, 09:59:32 pm
Open - the players already know every role that's in the game and how many of each there are. Example: Vengeful Mafia, Beginner's Sprint.Ah okay, thanks. I meant it sounded like Supernatural in the fact that there were seers and werewolves then style of game. I do think the game sounds cool. But would mafia have any abilities like some sort of roleblocking ability?
Semi-open - the players know what roles are possible, but not necessarily how many of each there are. Examples: Paranormal Mafia, Beginner's Mafia.
Closed - the players do not know what roles will be in the game - there can be totally novel and strange roles present that the mod hides. Examples: Every Toon Mafia, BYOR mafias.
I guess Supernatural isn't quite closed because you are given hints about what town roles there are, but it's not even semi-open as the scum abilities are completely obscured.
Post by: notquitethere on November 19, 2013, 06:03:23 am
Post by: birdy51 on November 19, 2013, 09:00:50 am
Extensions, while wearisome, are necessary. We all have times where we simply cannot play due to circumstances beyond our control.
With that consideration made however, I would be alright seeing extensions given out less frequently, or only in situations where they are deemed necessary by the mod.
E.x. A recent disaster or event forces Player 1 away from the computer. Player 1 informs the Mod about this. The Mod extends the game for the sake of Player 1.
Post by: notquitethere on November 19, 2013, 09:08:55 am
Post by: webadict on November 19, 2013, 09:45:23 am
Post by: Leafsnail on November 19, 2013, 10:10:30 am
Post by: ToonyMan on November 19, 2013, 10:45:55 am
Alternatively, each player could be given the ability to extend the game by 24 hours once, encouraging players to save their extend for when they really need it.Ooo making the extension mechanic even more part of the game. I like.
Post by: Toaster on November 19, 2013, 11:48:55 am
Post by: zombie urist on November 19, 2013, 12:37:16 pm
An idea I had was to make the first extension require 33% as normal, then the next one require (33%+1), and so on until everyone needs to agree to extend.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 19, 2013, 12:40:28 pm
I've been thinking about extensions too due to the BM.
An idea I had was to make the first extension require 33% as normal, then the next one require (33%+1), and so on until everyone needs to agree to extend.
I have a cap of 2 extensions per day, which seems to help a good bit.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 19, 2013, 04:23:28 pm
Post by: Imp on November 19, 2013, 05:38:43 pm
Since NQT's seen fit to mention the one currently in play I suppose I can too.
Week one we had total absence of IC Griffinpup, replaced after a week. By that time we had absolute minimal interaction from the other IC, Deathsword.
Then Darvi, Griffinpup replacement was active for one week, with an almost total absence of the other IC for that week (1 post was made).
Then Darvi went silent again, for -two weeks- (save for a single oops post about forgetting the game at the end of the first week of silence).
We -need- to see normal play. We newbies. We need diversity and balance.
Has a BM consisting of around 40-60% experienced players been considered? That way if one or another is 'distracted' or not as experienced as one might hope an IC is, if stuff comes up - there's more balance and flow. Newbies have a greater chance of seeing effective playstyles, of seeing different things caught, of interacting with experienced players who are actually there to play and who actually care about the game - and those experienced players are not 'just' surrounded by newbies.
I'm in two other games with a far higher percentage of experienced players - no two experienced players are playing the same way. Often everyone is making mistakes, misunderstanding things, people catch certain details but miss others, people think different things are Scummy.
I think BMs need more of that 'real balance'. Do what you see fit with the extension rules or any other rules - but apparently people, -experienced people- some of them have trouble tracking vote counts. Mods need to update frequently. Mods need to follow the rules/expectations/guidelines set in the OP - if the OP says nights last for 24 hours - Don't set them to be 48 hours with no explanation. Change whatever you think needs changing in the set up of the BM game - but what I think it needs MOST is the balance of a larger number of experienced players to the inexperienced ones. And I feel that's a critical need.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 19, 2013, 05:47:46 pm
Post by: notquitethere on November 19, 2013, 05:53:19 pm
Post by: zombie urist on November 19, 2013, 06:36:11 pm
We need better ICs.
Post by: notquitethere on November 19, 2013, 06:48:50 pm
Post by: Nerjin on November 19, 2013, 06:53:11 pm
Post by: Imp on November 19, 2013, 07:04:30 pm
So basically, abolish beginner mafias and instead let some beginners into regular games on the understanding that they'll be trained there? That seems like a reasonable idea, I feel like the inevitable flaking in BMs turns people off the game.
No, that's a different suggestion, and that's not what I intended to suggest above.
I rather suspect that functionally the BM is mostly a way of screening off players insufficiently reliable to play games on the subforum. Most games played have players with a mix of experience (you only need to play in one game to play in others). I think BMs don't need more ICs: they need to be more fun and entice more players into sticking around. I think the Sprint BM is the way forward.
I agree with there being multiple purposes for there being BMs, and I agree that 'screening/making sure players have certain minimum understandings' is an acceptable reason for them to exist.
I have read the OP for the Sprint BM; the first time I did (as a totally new player) I didn't really understand how that game was going to be different from the other, except 'faster' for reasons I didn't quite understand. Possibly faster to the point of being rushed. It also didn't tempt me very much -
Tired of the plodding pace of normal games? Just not interested in spending more than a month reading and arguing? Never manage to finish a game?My answer to all of those questions, personally, before my first Mafia game were 'No idea', 'No, that might be interesting but probably not fun. Sounds weird, not like any sort of game' and 'No.... I finished games when I want to... why ask me this?'
My answer to them now that I've got -some- Mafia experience is: 'No.' 'No.' and '.... you're specifically talking about -Mafia- games, right? I've just not had a chance to finish any of those yet. Need more time - but it's not something I fail at, no'.
Before I'd actually played a game, eliminating the 'pause' for nights didn't mean anything to me - now I'm neutral about it. Nights are both 'boring' and a chance to take a break. I'm eager for night to end, and somewhat dread it.
And I laugh a little at the idea of everyone coordinating so well. It's hard for me to -believe- that style will flow like it has the potential to. I see that potential and I agree the dream is worth reaching for. I think Sprint BM is a great experiment and I intend to watch it as closely as I would if I were signed up to play. I just don't trust that people overall will consistently 'do' the rapid interplay required. Heck, in one of the game's I'm in the Mod even posted a warning, 'send in your night actions within the next 12 hours or lose them'. I don't think people are waiting so long because the night is long - I don't think 'boredom' is the (sole or universal) cause of player slow action and low involvement, so I don't really believe that just 'speeding things up' are going to fix all these issues for all players.
But all players are different and like different things, I think it's ideal that there are things like Sprint BM being tried and I do hope it's a success. I'm not eager to see Sprint BM become the only style of BM - I think there are players who are not that sort of player, even players for whom the 'rapid swish' style promised in the OP may seem somewhat intimidating and not preferred for their very first experience into whatever the heck Mafia is.
As to why to add -more- ICs into a 'beginner's game' - look guys.
Why are the ICs really there? Is this quote a lie?
It still has an instructional aspect, however, and as such two ICs will be present in the game; one to play the game with you, and another to simply act as an advisor to the opposing party - the eponymous Mafia. Their primary purpose is to teach you to play Mafia, and will do everything to further that goal even after death - but keep in mind that the playing IC will still play for keeps.
So this implies that the reason for both ICs -inferrentially for any IC - is to show newer players how to play. Is that true?
But there's NO apparent vetting system. And if the currently present ICs in any BM show absent, weird, problematic, lurky, erratic, or any other flavor of poor play - what exactly is being taught and how?
The answer to that isn't -fewer- ICs, it's more, which gives more chances for at least some of those ICs to be players able to be engaged, able to play with some sort of skill, and able to provide a wider glimpse of what good play is, may be, and isn't.
If there's X chance - if there's any chance! - that any one IC 'isn't a great one', the more ICs you have the more chance you have of having at least one that's really there to play and really able to play. And the more chance with different playstyles present that -each- individual flavor of newbie playing might find an example that 'makes sense' and is really useful for understanding what good play is and isn't.
So no, I suggest not abolishing the BM at all. Keep it for all its many reasons why it exists. But yes, make it better, yes experiment. Try 2-4 sprint BMs, even if the first is a complete failure. But try other things too - and one thing I hope gets tried is a close to even mix of ICs-to-newbies, run -as- a BM, with the current (or however needs modification) BM setup.
Post by: Imp on November 19, 2013, 07:11:51 pm
The problem is no one really wants to play with beginners because they have a tendency to flake.
We need better ICs.
But it's just the -beginners- that are flaking, right? ::)
How about an addendum to the BM rules (in addition to adding in ~50% experienced) - since the 'purposes of the BM game' appear to include things like 'newbies learn how to play' and 'Experienced Mods and players get to see if any given newbie actually intends to play' - include a few reasons why a BM might get canceled in mid play. If people really agree with this statement: no one really wants to play with beginners then there should be no reason to finish the game if all or even most of the beginners are flaking... if all or most of the ICs are flaking.... or if all or most of all of the players are flaking.
So it is understood and 'accepted' that if a BM goes ugly/boring/sad/distasteful or whatever, it just gets stopped. Maybe have a 'vote to cancel game' requiring most players to agree (60%? 80%?, with a 48 hour silence from the thread or failure to vote 'continue game' being counted as a 'cancel game' vote?), maybe make it a pure mod call (as it already silently is), but put it in the rules clearly and remove the stigma. So maybe there will be more serious ICs, and fewer 'OMG, we really have to play through this?' days in BMs.
Post by: Mephansteras on November 19, 2013, 07:18:38 pm
Not saying veteran players don't flake out as well, but generally they at least know that they enjoy the game and intend to go for the entire time.
So I agree that a Beginner game should have more built-in capability to deal with people dropping out than a standard Mafia game does. Whether that's a kill switch, a more robust replacement system, concrete rules for modkills of absent players, or something else. Been too long since I've run a BM, so I'm not sure which is best. Probably a combination. (Pretty sure I only ran the first one, though I've had beginners in a few of my normal games).
Post by: Leafsnail on November 19, 2013, 07:21:07 pm
A cancel game vote would only make sense on a unanimous vote from the players (with absent players counted as voting in favour), otherwise the town can just vote to end the game if they get into an unfavourable situation.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 19, 2013, 07:34:59 pm
The beginners all have a chance to talk about the game with their partner, and there's built in redundancy which should mean that playerslots don't fall silent when someone flakes.
Post by: Imp on November 19, 2013, 07:39:54 pm
Weird experimental idea: Pro-Am Mafia.
I'd sign up to try that set up.
Post by: zombie urist on November 19, 2013, 07:40:15 pm
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133427.0
Post by: Persus13 on November 19, 2013, 09:05:47 pm
Post by: Tiruin on November 19, 2013, 09:10:21 pm
So, out of curiousity, is running a mafia game easier or harder than playing in one?Easier. Really. :P
Post by: Vector on November 19, 2013, 09:24:30 pm
So, out of curiousity, is running a mafia game easier or harder than playing in one?
Definitely harder >_>
Post by: Imp on November 19, 2013, 09:25:38 pm
So, out of curiousity, is running a mafia game easier or harder than playing in one?
One day, maybe it'll be our turn to try it and find out!
Post by: Tiruin on November 19, 2013, 09:26:23 pm
..Or mostly depending on what kinda game you're running. :P
I'd be looking forward to it :3So, out of curiousity, is running a mafia game easier or harder than playing in one?
One day, maybe it'll be our turn to try it and find out!
Who is claiming the spot for next BM Mod [post-ZU]? If not, I'm taking it :D
Post by: Toaster on November 19, 2013, 10:49:30 pm
If you're running a game, screwing up can ruin the game for everyone.
I wouldn't say it is harder exactly, but it's a different skill set and has higher expectations.
The Pro-Am is an interesting idea. On the topic of extensions, I've always found that D1 is the longest. What about a "starter" game with simple roles*, a long D1, and regular length days the rest of the game? It'd be marketed to players of any skill level, with the thought that the percentage of beginners is lower without being overwhelming.
*Two good examples: Wild West Mafia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649) and Mafia Salad (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=70902.0).
Post by: webadict on November 19, 2013, 11:21:27 pm
So, out of curiousity, is running a mafia game easier or harder than playing in one?Depends. You can definitely make a game that's easier to run than play. We have basic setups if you're willing to play. Plus, Beginner's Mafia is a good mod starter, but don't consider any of these to be your only choices. If you can entice people to play your game, you're set.
You write, like, twelve pages of notes and flavor. You are in the minority.So, out of curiousity, is running a mafia game easier or harder than playing in one?
Definitely harder >_>
PLUS IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A GAME MAYBE WE COULD DO THAT WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE DEFENESTRATE? BUT DON'T TELL THE OTHERS THEY MIGHT JUDGE
Post by: Nerjin on November 19, 2013, 11:24:31 pm
Post by: webadict on November 19, 2013, 11:28:33 pm
You know guys... I think Web and Vector are having a spat. They haven't talked to each other, in any way, shape, or form, in ages. It's odd.She never wants to play Mafia with me anymore! She always has a headache or had a rough day at work!
Post by: Nerjin on November 19, 2013, 11:29:45 pm
Post by: webadict on November 19, 2013, 11:31:26 pm
Have you considered counseling? I know it helped me and my [insert whatever word you'd like here] to play mafia together more.But then I'd have to discuss my feelings.
And then she'd lynch me for appealing to emotions.
Post by: Nerjin on November 19, 2013, 11:34:26 pm
Post by: webadict on November 19, 2013, 11:39:11 pm
Then she'd be playing mafia with you. I never said it was the perfect plan.But she doesn't even cuddle afterward... :(
Post by: Nerjin on November 19, 2013, 11:43:46 pm
Quote from: Role
You are Vector, a third-party roll that wins when they succesfully cuddle the player with the Webadict role.
Cuddle: Once per night you can cuddle with a player [living or dead]. If the player has the Webadict role you win. If not you murder them because they are not Webadict your bestest mafia buddy.
Vectorinishishness: This is a made-up word with no meaning, as such this role-power has no meaning.
Web-Vector: You may use this ability at any time. When you use this ability you learn the identity of the player with the Webadict role.
Or something like that. You've got this Emporer Penguin man guy thing.
Post by: Tiruin on November 20, 2013, 01:31:23 am
So anyway.
If you're playing a game, screwing up gets you lynched.I agree fully here. A player-mindset is SO different from a Mod-mindset. Something to note, there are certain roles that could coincide with certain playstyles, however the role distribution is a confidential Mod-secret so I don't think I can expound here without prior advice to either Meph or..one of those veteran moderators with experience on these deals.
If you're running a game, screwing up can ruin the game for everyone.
I wouldn't say it is harder exactly, but it's a different skill set and has higher expectations.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 20, 2013, 04:34:55 am
Making a good closed setup is hard though, and a commitment to heavy flavour will also make it harder to mod. I think my hardest game to mod was BYOC because I had to come up with like 60 abilities and track them all
Post by: webadict on November 20, 2013, 08:18:11 am
If you're running an open setup with light flavour it's fairly easy. There are big consequences for making a mistake, sure, but your role is very clearly defined.... Wow, I guess I never thought about it, because BYORs have just steadily grown, but my first BYOR, everyone had 1 ability except like 1 or 2 roles, and then... look at them today! I've given a role with 5 abilities once, and it never really seemed like a big deal to me to have all those abilities. The only ones that are a real nuisance are auto abilities, because sometimes I forget they have them when I process actions or vote counts or anything they're effecting. So, I've tried to categorize them by what they effect, and it's a pretty good idea.
Making a good closed setup is hard though, and a commitment to heavy flavour will also make it harder to mod. I think my hardest game to mod was BYOC because I had to come up with like 60 abilities and track them all
I've also got a bunch of ideas for abilities, but you don't have to have them all unique. I even once gave the same exact powers to another player so that they'd get suspicious when they massclaimed. Or you can have abilities that effect the same type of ability. I dunno. I feel like this round of BYOR, I didn't get to come up with a lot of super unique abilities, but I've thought of some, and I'll probably be keeping a list.
My favorite ability still is infinity voting, though.
You guys are sweet. :) [And I doubt that they're in a spat. Vector is just busy-busy IRL and working. Webadict is also busy-busy IRL and had a recently happy birthday!]I'm just messing around. Vector totally cuddles after a game of Mafia.
But seriously, yeah, that. I've been moving, too, so I'm fairly busy during the day recently, and Vector is Vector and therefore typically absorbs all nearby business then wrings it out into the forums and that typically makes a game or so. I'm just hoping she gets less busy so we can make a fun game for everyone to play.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 20, 2013, 08:19:45 am
Post by: webadict on November 20, 2013, 08:37:39 am
Well the entire premise of BYOC is that every player got 5 cards, so there wasn't really any way around that.Yeah, it just didn't seem that big to me, since I was so used to it, but you probably jumped right into it. So, here you are with 5 abilities you have to give to your players when I was working my way up from 1 a piece.
I like the system though because everyone gets an ability. And everyone loves having abilities. Plus, I get a lot of "OMG I L<3VE THIS ROLE!" when I thought it wasn't that great, and it makes me feel a bit better. And then the role I tried the hardest on is like, "Eh, that's cool." and I still feel pretty good because it was well made.
Post by: Toaster on November 20, 2013, 10:34:35 am
Post by: Mephansteras on November 20, 2013, 12:31:54 pm
Writing flavor is a big reason I mod, so I tend to have a decent amount of it.
Set-up...I actually use a perl script and a source spreadsheet with balance numbers to create a batch of mostly balanced set-ups. I then peruse those, pick the one I think will be the most fun, tweak it a little, and go from there.
New roles are always the hardest to balance, since it can be tricky to predict how everything will mesh when it gets out into the game. But with trial and error I've gotten pretty good at making new roles at least mostly balanced.
Post by: Nerjin on November 20, 2013, 12:36:44 pm
But yeah, I had the most fun when writing flavor for the one singular game I modded [and the flavor for Elements 3 which never took off.]
Post by: webadict on November 20, 2013, 02:06:31 pm
Post by: Nerjin on November 20, 2013, 02:32:21 pm
Post by: webadict on November 20, 2013, 02:44:38 pm
Post by: Nerjin on November 20, 2013, 02:47:46 pm
[Research montage]
I'd need to know a bit more about what exactly you had in mind and if you had a particular flavor type in mind.
Post by: Vector on November 20, 2013, 11:37:54 pm
Post by: Imp on November 21, 2013, 01:00:30 am
Post by: Tiruin on November 21, 2013, 02:00:44 am
Actually, I've been preparing flavor for a Kingmaker. Shall we?YEESS-
I mean, do go on! This sounds like a good restart for those types.
Kingmaker games have..been seemingly removed since the last game where [People who didn't do the BMs joined] and stuff happened and town won. Jim was there.
..Things didn't go well.
Post by: webadict on November 21, 2013, 03:14:46 am
Yes you should! Ahem. I mean, would one of you knowledgeable types please post a good 2-3 links of a similar Kingmaker game, so I can tell if it's something I'd like to ask to join in on when the time comes?I would, but I'm phonebound until Saturday.
Post by: Nerjin on November 21, 2013, 08:40:59 am
Post by: notquitethere on November 21, 2013, 09:17:24 am
Guess I'm fired then.I'll co-mod a game with you if you like Nerjin :) I've been wanting to run something for a while now.
Post by: Toaster on November 21, 2013, 12:29:52 pm
Kingmaker 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=41723.0)
Kingmaker 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47951.0)
Kingmaker 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73922.0)
Kingmaker 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76609.0)
My conclusion at the end was the gametype needs some serious work before it comes fun, since it typically breaks down at LYLO.
(Also if you want to see a trainwreck, read #4)
Post by: Nerjin on November 21, 2013, 12:38:24 pm
Post by: webadict on November 21, 2013, 01:43:28 pm
Guess I'm fired then.What? Why? I can duomod two games. I've even got a fair majority of the potential roles for ours.
Post by: Nerjin on November 21, 2013, 01:45:13 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on November 21, 2013, 05:08:38 pm
Post by: Imp on November 22, 2013, 08:13:23 am
I don't think it's a tempting type of Mafia for me.
If it were the only Mafia game being played in its time slot... I'd probably give it a try, because I really want to play more Mafia.
But I think I'd regret signing up.
It seems to encourage passiveness for many people. I fear it would in me as well. A sense of futility and distance. Nihilism might become me!
Post by: Toaster on November 22, 2013, 09:04:05 am
7 v 2 mountainous Kingmaker is massively skewed against town. If you made the numbers less unbalanced it would work a lot better.
...until it's LYLO and suddenly two townies are confirmed, assuming a scum wasn't kinged. What numbers do you propose?
Post by: Leafsnail on November 22, 2013, 03:09:53 pm
I'd suggest adding some power roles. If it were mountainous it would probably need to be 9 v 2 at minimum (although that might still be skewed).
Post by: notquitethere on November 24, 2013, 09:47:08 am
Post by: webadict on November 24, 2013, 09:56:57 am
I've been developing a kind of Build-Your-Own Mafia, in which players spend points on powers, secondary wincons etc. at the beginning of the game and gain points for every day they survive, which they can spend on new powers as the day goes on. Would anyone be interested in taking a look at what I've got so far? The power costs want more careful balancing and it'd be good to get a second opinion.Memememememe. I can't play well, but I can balance.
Post by: notquitethere on November 24, 2013, 10:52:15 am
...Any other takers?
Post by: Toaster on November 24, 2013, 11:50:16 am
Post by: webadict on November 24, 2013, 12:04:46 pm
Post by: Toaster on November 24, 2013, 12:08:44 pm
Post by: notquitethere on November 24, 2013, 12:09:38 pm
Spoiler: Build Your Own Mafia (click to show/hide)
Post by: webadict on November 24, 2013, 12:39:21 pm
So, here's my issue with games where the mafia doesn't get a group kill: A lot of their power has been removed. If you buy a kill, then you've suddenly placed a lot of your power into one teammate, and that affects balance on its own.
Dense Paranoid Gun Owners might be running rampant, though. You should really remove PGOs from this game. They're a real hassle to balance.
Can prolific use the same ability twice?
Go To Town is commonly known as Hide, just in case you want a better word.
Can Unstoppable Kills be blocked by Kill Immunity?
Remove Unlynchable. Unlynchable Mafia is... not fun.
Town cannot get conversions. Otherwise, the game will break.
Silent should cost 1 point, since untrackability is pro-scum, but not too powerful.
You might want to change Double Voter a bit. It's not broken as it stands now, but it could have a few issues with it. I have no way to fix it right now, but I'm making a note of it.
Protect is more of a 3-4 cost action. Protects are not as useful as you might want.
Unreliable Inspect seems to be pointless to me. You're flipping a coin over whether it works or not, which would be the same as if you just guessed anyway. :P
Ways to break the game:
All players grab a non-Miller Flaw and Infallible Inspects. Create an inspect circle. Play a game of Dethy without sanities. Possible counters might include conversions.
Post by: Nerjin on November 24, 2013, 12:53:06 pm
-1 - Unlucky (unreliable powers work 25% of the time, non-unlucky players take precedence in same-level action ordering)
-1 - miller. shows up as scum under inspect (non-scum only)
-1 - hardcore (all protects on you fail- cannot be taken alongside PGO)
-2 - unable to vote
-2 - unreliable (your powers and autos have a 50% chance of failure)
Giving me: 7 points to spend at Generation.
I also want:
2 "3 points (standard wincon + optional easy wincon - like jester, martyr)" which would make it basically impossible for me to lose right? Unless I missed a rule.
Perhaps make it so that you cannot take more than 1 secondary win-con?
Post by: notquitethere on November 24, 2013, 01:34:01 pm
Is Last Man Standing a Survivor wincon?Yeah, originally I was going to allow buying of new secondary wincons in play but then I decided that was stupid. In its original incarnation, you'd have to be the very last player alive to win, but now it can just be changed to 'survivor'.
So, here's my issue with games where the mafia doesn't get a group kill: A lot of their power has been removed. If you buy a kill, then you've suddenly placed a lot of your power into one teammate, and that affects balance on its own.But given that the scum can collude and make sure all their bases are covered, is that necessarily a bad thing?
Dense Paranoid Gun Owners might be running rampant, though. You should really remove PGOs from this game. They're a real hassle to balance.I think I'll change it to 'Auto - 5 - Explosive, if you're targeted for a kill, you still die but then so does the person attacking you', then if then if someone wants to build a PGO, they'll have to shell out ten points for two abilities.
Can prolific use the same ability twice?I don't see why not. Or should that be a different power/cost more?
Go To Town is commonly known as Hide, just in case you want a better word.Yeah, I knew I wasn't quite getting that one right.
Can Unstoppable Kills be blocked by Kill Immunity?Damn unstoppable forces meeting immovable objects... I'd say yes, because the Unstoppable auto just gets past 'protect' and 'block'.
Remove Unlynchable. Unlynchable Mafia is... not fun.Might change this to 'Second Life', to allow for a resurrection.
Town cannot get conversions. Otherwise, the game will break.Ah yes, because ex-scum will just out their partners and waltz home to easy victory.
Silent should cost 1 point, since untrackability is pro-scum, but not too powerful.Agreed.
You might want to change Double Voter a bit. It's not broken as it stands now, but it could have a few issues with it. I have no way to fix it right now, but I'm making a note of it.It doesn't have to be included, but I was trying to err on the side of the greatest number of power choices. I'll cost it up one point for now, pending further discussion.
Protect is more of a 3-4 cost action. Protects are not as useful as you might want.Yeah, I'm thinking in general the pro-town powers might do with being a little bit cheaper on the whole. That said, I have played in a game won wholly on the back of a doctor who successfully protected two players before claiming. They're more useful the less players there are (but that's true of all powers). Okay, I've lowered their cost to 3. With the high likelihood of town-Vigilantes in a game, the investigative use of a protect is much lower.
Unreliable Inspect seems to be pointless to me. You're flipping a coin over whether it works or not, which would be the same as if you just guessed anyway. :PYes it is pointless as it stands, but a lucky unreliable cop might tempt some people. I'll make it cost one point to encourage just this.
Ways to break the game:Yes, that's possible but unlikely to pull off as the town can't collude on what powers to get before the game. Converter scum might counter claimed cops, and then there's the possibility of being redirected, bussed, etc.
All players grab a non-Miller Flaw and Infallible Inspects. Create an inspect circle. Play a game of Dethy without sanities. Possible counters might include conversions.
Nerjin
Thanks for the spot: I've updated the rules to preclude the taking of two or more secondary wincons, and I've clarified the flaws that you can only take if you have powers. Also, if you take 7 points of flaws, then you have 12 points to spend on powers (and a secondary wincon) as you start off with five points in N0.
Spoiler: CYOM v1.1 (click to show/hide)
Keep it coming! Anyone spot any obvious powers that should be on the list? I've added some CYOM specific abilities: Bloodthirsty, Thrill-Seeker and Power Swap and clarified how Changeling works.
Post by: Imp on November 24, 2013, 01:34:36 pm
I want the following abilities:
-1 - Unlucky (unreliable powers work 25% of the time, non-unlucky players take precedence in same-level action ordering)
-1 - miller. shows up as scum under inspect (non-scum only)
-1 - hardcore (all protects on you fail- cannot be taken alongside PGO)
-2 - unable to vote
-2 - unreliable (your powers and autos have a 50% chance of failure)
Giving me: 7 points to spend at Generation.
Err, 12 points I think, cause of this:
"each player is allotted an alignment (either town or scum) and has five points to spend on powers."
Post by: notquitethere on November 24, 2013, 01:40:26 pm
Post by: Imp on November 24, 2013, 02:17:40 pm
Hey Imp, what would you build if you rolled town or scum and you wanted to break the game?
Just woke up today, and still looking this over/thinking about it. Brain a bit slow.
I'm unsure because some of this stuff I've never seen used. And others I don't get - who the HECK would want to take an unreliable cop point? Unless unreliable means '100%' - that is almost as good as a reliable cop. "woohoo! This person inspected Town! Now I know they ain't Town!'... But if it's randomly right or wrong.... that's one point I'd never spend. I can -guess- without needing a 50% likely to be wrong clue, meh.
Point share is interesting. Very interesting. Especially for Scum.
Randomize. Explain more. One target? Everyone? How does it work exactly, if they try to use a power, is the one they used randomly selected, or just their target, and if they didn't try to use one is that randomizeable too, to 'force' them to try and use a power even if they intended no action?
Sap. Ooooh. Tempting. But probably not so useful.
Santa. Heck yeah.
I'm not seeing any of these as being one-shot or constant use. Is there a point difference to take something as a one shot? Or are these -all- one shots?
So... to break the game as Scum... I'd take -
Hardcore (-1), Dense (-2), unable to vote (-2), and magnetic (-2)
So I'd have 5 + 7 = 12 points.
Then I'd pick Point share (2), so I'd enter play with 10 points.
I'd get through the day however I could, but for SURE I'd give my 10 points to the best Scum on our Team, and we'd of course work out how those points would be spent the beginning of N1 and all the rest.
Actually, I found a better breaker as Scum - And I'd enjoy the hell out of it, far more than the first.
Hardcore (-1), unable to vote (-2), and magnetic (-2), giving me 10 points.
Double Santa costs 10 points, with magnetic giving me a 50% chance of self targetting when I try to bestow my gifts upon my buddies. And I could gain points like normal with that build too - but every cycle of power use (is that one full D/N? Remember, I'm -new-... some 'obvious how things work' to you is invisible and intangible to me still). Anyway, Someone Scum is getting 2 new powers every chance I have to use Santa again, and that could be any power, from a 1 point to a 7 point power. Merry Scummas!
I'm not sure how to break this set up as Town yet. I'll wonder about that for a while.
Post by: zombie urist on November 24, 2013, 02:18:30 pm
Instead of everyone having every choice, randomly pick ~5-6? possible choices for each player otherwise everyone might choose vig or cop or something.
Post by: Nerjin on November 24, 2013, 02:20:17 pm
Post by: webadict on November 24, 2013, 02:25:33 pm
No to additional wincons, everything else after a brief scan looks ok.This is kind of okay.
Instead of everyone having every choice, randomly pick ~5-6? possible choices for each player otherwise everyone might choose vig or cop or something.
Post by: notquitethere on November 24, 2013, 02:26:48 pm
No to additional wincons, everything else after a brief scan looks ok.Why not? There are no third parties otherwise, and it gives each player the option of being more flexible in how they win at the considerable expense of having less power throughout the game.
Instead of everyone having every choice, randomly pick ~5-6? possible choices for each player otherwise everyone might choose vig or cop or something.That might be an interesting game but it's not the game I want to make. I want to give players genuine choices. Ideally, the powers should be costed to tempt some players to choose powers other than night-kills and inspects.
Nerjin
Perhaps scum should share a pool of 10 points and effectively count as one player? They keep the abilities and such or something. I dunno. Just a thought.That could work, but I think it's simpler if everyone shares the same rule-set. Do you think the scum would be too powerful otherwise?
Post by: Imp on November 24, 2013, 02:28:22 pm
I'd want to break as Town by being someone's mason so I knew who to santa/share with. If that's intended, no masons... I dunno any others yet. I'll keep thinking.
Post by: notquitethere on November 24, 2013, 02:35:15 pm
I'd want to break as Town by being someone's mason so I knew who to santa/share with. If that's intended, no masons... I dunno any others yet. I'll keep thinking.To keep the pre-game distribution of roles simple there are only town and scum, both of whom may individually have secondary win-cons. Some secondary wincons (like Brother) give you an incentive to help out one specific player. The ability to share a chat with someone else is a good power. And the ability to make people Lovers (like I did in Magic Mafia) should also be there. I'll add them to the list.
Post by: Toaster on November 24, 2013, 05:44:10 pm
Change "Night" to "Phase" or each scum takes Dense Day Convert and doubles its size at the word go. Still, let's assume three scum and a 13 man game:
1: Hardcore Dense Day Convert Innocent
2: Dense Night Convert Innocent
3: Dense Double Vote Innocent
D1 convert someone. With four votes it should be easy to drive a mislynch. Convert someone overnight. Short of a kill or block, the team should have six members come D2, which is either parity (12 standing) or enough votes to force a mislynch and win.
Converts should either be priced much higher or removed.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 24, 2013, 06:22:44 pm
Post by: notquitethere on November 24, 2013, 07:45:01 pm
"To avoid all scum taking kill powers and all using them each night, scum collectively can't kill or convert more than one target in a night."Good spot.
Change "Night" to "Phase" or each scum takes Dense Day Convert and doubles its size at the word go.
Still, let's assume three scum and a 13 man game:Great point. Yes, scum kill/converts should be once per phase only and the price for conversion should be more expensive than killing as it's more powerful.
1: Hardcore Dense Day Convert Innocent
2: Dense Night Convert Innocent
3: Dense Double Vote Innocent
D1 convert someone. With four votes it should be easy to drive a mislynch. Convert someone overnight. Short of a kill or block, the team should have six members come D2, which is either parity (12 standing) or enough votes to force a mislynch and win.
Converts should either be priced much higher or removed.
In general, I think I want to incentivise more the buying of powers mid-game, to make 'Dense' more of a difficult choice.
Leafsnail
I'm pretty sure the game is broken if every townie takes Infallible Alignment Cop, Miller, Hardcore, Dense, Immovable and Unstoppable.The town can't collude to make sure everyone does this, but you have a point. I'll either get rid of infallibile alignment cop or limit players to only one flaw. Any thoughts on which is more interesting?
Post by: Leafsnail on November 24, 2013, 08:20:07 pm
You'd probably need to tone the powers down in order to get rid of town breaking strategies.
That said, I might use some of the basic ideas for the Dangan mafia I've been trying to create for a while (where everyone's win condition is to kill someone and get away with it).
Post by: Imp on November 24, 2013, 08:32:07 pm
Town needs to eliminate all threats, each Scum team independently needs to remove the other team and outnumber Town.
Or is that obviously flawed?
I mean one inescapable strategy might be on D1, 'name your partners' - but you still don't know which set of 6 teams is Scum or Town. Once you eliminate one of a Scum pair the remaining member is pretty much identified, but it still would take another lynch to get rid of that identified other Scum (the opposing Scum team probably won't waste a night kill on that 'certain lynch' unless they were sure that was needed). So that 'obvious' strategy doesn't actually resolve much.
Post by: Toaster on November 24, 2013, 08:44:52 pm
Also, Mercenary is just terrible. Its benefit is lost as soon as you use a power once.
Post by: Persus13 on November 24, 2013, 08:48:22 pm
Are there sets of mafias where 'everyone' is in a team? Like a 12 player game, with 6 sets of 2 person teams, two sets are Scum, four sets are Town.Sounds interesting. The flip side of the partner mechanic is that if a townie is lynch then their partner becomes confirmed town and a highly likely scum target that night. So a town partner getting lynched is almost certain death for their partner.
Town needs to eliminate all threats, each Scum team independently needs to remove the other team and outnumber Town.
Or is that obviously flawed?
I mean one inescapable strategy might be on D1, 'name your partners' - but you still don't know which set of 6 teams is Scum or Town. Once you eliminate one of a Scum pair the remaining member is pretty much identified, but it still would take another lynch to get rid of that identified other Scum (the opposing Scum team probably won't waste a night kill on that 'certain lynch' unless they were sure that was needed). So that 'obvious' strategy doesn't actually resolve much.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 24, 2013, 08:52:10 pm
There is something that's basically what you're proposing though:
True Love (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=True_Love). Similar, but the pairs die together.
Also:
Polygamist (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Polygamist). A funnier version where there are four mafia members who all die together.
Post by: Max White on November 24, 2013, 08:52:38 pm
Sounds interesting. The flip side of the partner mechanic is that if a townie is lynch then their partner becomes confirmed town and a highly likely scum target that night. So a town partner getting lynched is almost certain death for their partner.Not if the partnership is hidden.
Then anybody claiming the partnership would become suspect of scum trying to make a fake claim... Heck if you managed to lynch two people that were both on the same team (Say players 'A' and 'B') then scum players could take their claims and look very townie (So Scum X and Y would claim an AX and BY relationship, with nobody alive to counter claim)
Post by: Leafsnail on November 24, 2013, 09:04:51 pm
Post by: Persus13 on November 24, 2013, 09:11:44 pm
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Based off the famous Western by Sergio Leone
Rules:
Townies are the Union. They win by the Confederates and The Ugly. One Inspector.
Scum are Confederates. Win by killing all of the Union and the Ugly. One Inspector. Only Confederates have access to the scum chat.
Three third-parties:
The Good. Needs to keep the Ugly (and knows who he is) alive and kill the Bad to win. Starts with a one-shot NK. Appears as Confederate to inspects.
The Bad. A Serial Killer who needs to kill the Good and the Ugly to win. Appears as Union to inspects.
The Ugly: Needs to keep the Good alive (and knows who he is) and survive to win. Appears as Confederate to inspects. The first NK on him kills the attacker.
Post by: Max White on November 24, 2013, 09:16:24 pm
Basically you would end up with three players all trying to take the fall themselves.
Post by: Persus13 on November 24, 2013, 09:21:04 pm
Actually that would be an interesting dynamic... A game with three third parties where X needs Y to survive to win, Y needs Z to survive to win, and Z needs X to survive to win, and none of them need to live themselves.Actually, only two players need to keep the others alive. And I should make so they have to survive to win, because that's more accurate to the plot.
Basically you would end up with three players all trying to take the fall themselves.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 24, 2013, 09:39:52 pm
Post by: Max White on November 24, 2013, 09:44:25 pm
Post by: Persus13 on November 24, 2013, 09:54:39 pm
I can't see any actual way for the Good or the Ugly to win. All the other factions need them to lose and as far as I can tell they don't have enough power to fight back.Well that is a problem given that they win in the movie. Any suggestions to make them more powerful? Like having it so that the Union and Confederates don't need to kill the Ugly to win.
Post by: Nerjin on November 24, 2013, 10:40:39 pm
Perhaps the Union and Confederates don't care at all about the third parties?
Post by: Persus13 on November 24, 2013, 11:03:53 pm
Here's a suggestion: BASE it on the movie but don't just try to remake the movie. If what you want to do is recreate the movie step for step you're up for a bunch of sadness.Yeah, definitely.
Though it seems to me that it could be interesting if you were to make it along the lines of two seperate games going on that interfere with the other.This is pretty much exactly what I'd like the game to be like. Yeah I should change it up slightly.
Perhaps the Union and Confederates don't care at all about the third parties?
Post by: makeinu on November 24, 2013, 11:39:48 pm
Or have access to the internet.
I once played a game where the mod based everything off of the Foundation novels by Isaac Asimov, and used actual names from the novels for the roles. The Mule didn't come out so good, as expected. And it was dead simple to identify the scum (Empire) as role names came out, because the town took the tack that if you weren't sharing your name, you were Empire, period. One scum player had the sense to dig into the source material and invent a role.
Lesson learned: don't do that. Otherwise, it was a great theme setup.
Post by: Persus13 on November 24, 2013, 11:44:13 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on November 25, 2013, 05:25:01 am
Post by: notquitethere on November 25, 2013, 08:05:33 am
Spoiler: CYOM v.1.2 (click to show/hide)
Leafsnail
The main issue is not interest but balance. The town can easily shoot for a breaking strategy, and the scum's only response is to become a super-cult that wins on like the second day. Perhaps it would actually be best for town to all take daykills and just end the game on day one before scum have a chance to convert everyone (since scum can only kill once you could confirm townies by firing).Maybe, it's difficult to say ahead of time how well town will manage to co-ordinate strategies. In the newest version, I've costed up the price of cults and made all the non-killing powers cheaper to tempt players to buy several lower-powered abilities for flexibility rather than just one kill.
You'd probably need to tone the powers down in order to get rid of town breaking strategies.
Toaster
The problem with Dense is the player needs to live to see N3 before it becomes a payoff in not taking it. The question becomes how much do you want to encourage min/maxing? If not much, then cap flaws at one. (BTW Hardcore is probably the best choice if you're not taking a Dense strategy.) Dense, therefore, becomes weaker as the game gets larger.I've made dense give -1 instead. I think min-maxing is okay so long as the flaws all genuinely give the player a real disadvantage. When someone rocks up with a 10 point character spend they're going to be powerful to begin with but disadvantaged in the late game by all the players who are able to buy things much later on. Mercenary is okay as some players might want to take it just for that extra bit of starting juice. The flaws should be genuinely impactful.
Also, Mercenary is just terrible. Its benefit is lost as soon as you use a power once.
Post by: webadict on November 25, 2013, 10:04:59 am
Mafia all choose secondary wincons. You could even have the mafia kill each other to win. And if one of them gets jester, then it'll be a fairly easy game.
Post by: notquitethere on November 25, 2013, 10:39:11 am
Here's a way everyone wins:Hmm, that's obviously not desirable. The purchasable secondary wincons are meant to give a bit of character flexibility, but it's all premised on the assumption that players will want to play an interesting and fun game more than they want to play something that allows them to have a quick win but a boring game. The removal of jester/martyr secondary wincons is probably a good move (or at least, they should come with a qualification: like you only win if you're the first to be night killed or the second to be lynched etc.), and scum probably shouldn't be allowed to pick secondary wincons.
Mafia all choose secondary wincons. You could even have the mafia kill each other to win. And if one of them gets jester, then it'll be a fairly easy game.
Post by: webadict on November 25, 2013, 10:54:18 am
I think zombie urist was right. The secondary wincons aren't very good. If they're going to buy a wincon, it better be a full wincon and not a combination of a few.Here's a way everyone wins:Hmm, that's obviously not desirable. The purchasable secondary wincons are meant to give a bit of character flexibility, but it's all premised on the assumption that players will want to play an interesting and fun game more than they want to play something that allows them to have a quick win but a boring game. The removal of jester/martyr secondary wincons is probably a good move (or at least, they should come with a qualification: like you only win if you're the first to be night killed or the second to be lynched etc.), and scum probably shouldn't be allowed to pick secondary wincons.
Mafia all choose secondary wincons. You could even have the mafia kill each other to win. And if one of them gets jester, then it'll be a fairly easy game.
Post by: notquitethere on November 25, 2013, 11:02:48 am
Post by: webadict on November 25, 2013, 11:21:18 am
So, every possible game-breaking situation should be observed, pondered, and either destroyed or balanced. I'm pointing these out because if a player finds them, they'll use it.
So, if all Town players grab the Tier 1 wincons, they win by simply getting to Day X through No Lynches, since Survivors shouldn't count against the scum in terms of Town population, and the Watchers would've won, and the scum have no reason to stop them, since they win as well.
If all the Town players go for Tier 3 wincons, the win by just giving the scum their deaths. It's just an easy way to win, and people will abuse it.
Post by: notquitethere on November 25, 2013, 12:23:15 pm
Still, as 3rd parties add something to the mix, how about this for an alternative suggestion: town players can bid points during N0 to get a third-party wincon instead of their current wincon. There'll be a limited number of 3rd party slots depending on the number of players, and the players get the allocated the 3rd party wincons from easiest to hardest in bid order. The list of all possible wincons will be known but not the exact ones that might be bidded for. They won't know whether anyone else bidded or was successful. Unsuccessful bids will get their points back before N1.
Post by: Imp on November 25, 2013, 01:44:06 pm
2 - Quick-Learner (all point gains count for double)
-All- point gains? So if I point share to someone who has Quick learner, they are 'gaining' those points, which means they double those points, right?
Hehe, now this is probably a break if so. Whole Scum team takes point share and quick learner, they trade the points between themselves, doubling each time it's traded. Would be horrid if someone does a Scan of the right person at the right time, but otherwise might be too neat?
I really want to see a Prolific Santa scum-team in action now.
And I see Santa's dropped by 1 in price, and an equally priced 'prolific' has been added in. So I guess I'm totally wrong about Scummas being a breaking strategy, looks like it's being invited to be used!
Post by: Persus13 on November 25, 2013, 05:25:23 pm
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Imp on November 25, 2013, 05:57:51 pm
I know the surviving other has 'meaning' to someone because the Bad needs them both dead (so they cannot be auto killed or something just because their wincon became impossible to fill - that would autowin the Bad) but that solo remaining Good/Ugly is a player with no possible way to achieve their wincon.
Would you have them defaulting to becoming a Confederate player then, able to chase the normal Town wincon?
Also, does the Bad actually have to -kill- the Good and the Ugly in order to win, or just have them die, possibly because of the lynch or the Union nightkill? If the Bad does lose if someone else kills one of these other players, does he leave play or remain in the game, and if he stays, does he default to the Union side and Union Wincon?
I see pros and cons for that - Union would probably be -perfectly- happy to gain an SK. Town would have more incentive to keep the Good and the Ugly alive, at least until they could find the Bad and kill him (keeping him from giving the Union his kills).
If so, Town has incentive to keep Good and Ugly alive, but not much power to find them or protect them... Would it make sense to possibly have Town players start with knowledge of who Good and Ugly are (but maybe not which one is good, which one is ugly). They wouldn't know who any other Town was, and they don't want to reveal Good or Ugly (that turns the coming night into a race between Bad and Union to kill the outed player, Union gaining an unidentified SK if they win - Town won't want to reveal that information at all).
If instead you remove the Bad if it becomes impossible for the Bad to win (someone else kills Good or Ugly if you're restricting it that closely) or after the Bad has won, then it actually becomes tempting for Town to want to lynch the Bad or Good or Ugly, to get closer to removing a NK from play.
Post by: Persus13 on November 25, 2013, 07:17:48 pm
Persus, what happens to the surviving Good/Ugly when/if one of them dies in play?The surviving player would leave with some flavor about how he can't find the gold (winning).
Also, does the Bad actually have to -kill- the Good and the Ugly in order to win, or just have them die, possibly because of the lynch or the Union nightkill?No, the bad doesn't actually have to kill the other two. He just wants them dead so he can get the gold before them. But the three third parties are third parties not scum, they just show up as Town or Scum because in the film the good and the ugly both wear confederate uniforms and get captured by the Union, an aspect I thought would be interesting to include, and the Bad joined the union army, so I thought I'd do the same thing with him. Maybe I should let the Bad just show up as the Bad.
If instead you remove the Bad if it becomes impossible for the Bad to win (someone else kills Good or Ugly if you're restricting it that closely) or after the Bad has won, then it actually becomes tempting for Town to want to lynch the Bad or Good or Ugly, to get closer to removing a NK from play.The bad would likely leave when he wins (with flavor about how he got the gold he was looking for).
Post by: Toaster on November 26, 2013, 08:49:44 am
Post by: Persus13 on November 26, 2013, 04:24:24 pm
That makes the game very swingy- if the Good dies or is lynched (which isn't that hard), then the Bad leaves victorious and the Ugly wins losing.swingy? what does that mean? And what does wins losing mean?
Post by: Toaster on November 26, 2013, 10:39:45 pm
That should read "leaves losing." Derp.
Post by: Persus13 on November 26, 2013, 10:48:43 pm
Another possibility is that when the Ugly gets lynched, he gets saved by the good, revealing the Ugly's identity in the process (another movie reference).
Post by: Toaster on December 09, 2013, 02:47:25 pm
Alternatively, each player could be given the ability to extend the game by 24 hours once, encouraging players to save their extend for when they really need it.
I'm about to put my JK9++ game into signups, and my original idea was to run these extension rules.
But is it a good idea to do this just as final/holiday season is starting up? I'm open to opinions.
Post by: notquitethere on December 09, 2013, 04:35:49 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on December 09, 2013, 05:06:57 pm
Post by: Toaster on December 09, 2013, 08:58:11 pm
The big question is whether you think the game'd be done before Christmas and New Year.
...Probably not, no. And Dec 21-Dec 25 I'd have count as one giant weekend anyway.
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 03:58:58 pm
I don't have any concrete ideas on what I could do that would be both fun and interesting, though.
What do you guys think?
Post by: Toaster on December 13, 2013, 04:04:25 pm
Mephansteras
Does me re-editing it change whose name it is?
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 04:07:16 pm
Limits things a little, but there should still be some potential there.
Post by: Toaster on December 13, 2013, 04:21:07 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 04:22:05 pm
Especially if you just wantonly edited posts to add/delete a space so no one could really tell which ones were truly messed with.
Hehe. Yeah, I had that thought.
Post by: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 04:32:40 pm
Especially if you just wantonly edited posts to add/delete a space so no one could really tell which ones were truly messed with.
Hehe. Yeah, I had that thought.
Can people reedit their posts and remove your changes?
Also, what would you do if something was quoted?
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 04:34:33 pm
Especially if you just wantonly edited posts to add/delete a space so no one could really tell which ones were truly messed with.
Hehe. Yeah, I had that thought.
Can people reedit their posts and remove your changes?
Also, what would you do if something was quoted?
No, because editing posts by Players isn't allowed.
That would be valid, although I could go through and edit the quotes as well. Heck, I could make multiple quotes off the original post all different if I wanted.
Post by: Toaster on December 13, 2013, 04:37:20 pm
Post by: webadict on December 13, 2013, 05:41:31 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 05:47:34 pm
Post by: webadict on December 13, 2013, 05:53:22 pm
Come now, you can't expect me to not play with my new toys? Can you?EDIT: ALL HAIL MEPHANSTERAS
Post by: Leafsnail on December 13, 2013, 06:27:44 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 06:42:54 pm
You could evade any bastard editing measures by keeping a local backup of every post you make.
Yes, but will people believe you?
In any case, the main question here is: What can we do with this ability? Beyond simply messing with the past, what would make an interesting mechanic that uses that capability?
Post by: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 07:18:28 pm
You could evade any bastard editing measures by keeping a local backup of every post you make.
Yes, but will people believe you?
In any case, the main question here is: What can we do with this ability? Beyond simply messing with the past, what would make an interesting mechanic that uses that capability?
Maybe a role that can edit posts each night.
Some sort of votechanger.
Post by: webadict on December 13, 2013, 10:59:11 pm
Actually, if you click Notify at the bottom of the topic, doesn't it make a copy of the original post?You could evade any bastard editing measures by keeping a local backup of every post you make.
Yes, but will people believe you?
In any case, the main question here is: What can we do with this ability? Beyond simply messing with the past, what would make an interesting mechanic that uses that capability?
Post by: TheWetSheep on December 15, 2013, 12:41:09 am
Players: 5 -- 3 Mafia, 2 Vanilla Townies
Mechanics:
-Nightless
-1 vote to hammer
-Mafia cannot vote Townies
-No mafia-chat(?)
Win Conditions:
Mafia: Wins when one villager is dead.
Town: Wins when all Mafia are dead.
It's designed so that to win, Mafia need to convince a Townie to vote the other townie. I thought of it a few days ago and tried it out with my friends twice. It was very imbalanced(pro-town), but the way we played was that the Town only needed 2 Mafia dead to win. It was also face-to-face, so it made reading people far easier.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 15, 2013, 09:52:11 am
Post by: webadict on December 15, 2013, 08:12:40 pm
It suffers from the same 'ultimatum' problem that Trust Mafia did. The increased number of mafia may make up for that though.Trust Mafia is pretty fun. I liked the part where I shot ToonyMan.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 15, 2013, 09:59:42 pm
It's a town win if there is no mafia member alive and there are no townies dead.
It's a mafia win if the mafia member survives.
Nobody wins if neither of these conditions are fulfilled.
The statistics - a mafia member exists 50% of the time. That means that:
- If you're town, the chance of your opponent being mafia is 33%. So if you shoot your opponent there's a 33% chance that you'll win.
- The chance of your opponent being town is 67%. Assuming their decision on whether or not to shoot is 50/50, that means your chance of winning on a "no shoot" is also 33%. Therefore the decision on whether to shoot or not shoot is completely unbiased, statisically.
- One interesting thing that arises in this game - regardless of your alignment you'll probably want to make it seem like you don't intend to shoot the other person. If the other player is a townie and is convinced that you will shoot them then they have no reason not to shoot you, which will make you lose.
- The main issue here is that mafia would be just a straight-up easier role than townie, and you could basically play it in the same way. I'm not sure if there's a good way of resolving this problem.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 15, 2013, 11:38:19 pm
As above, there's a 50/50 chance that a mafia member exists among the two players.
At any time, a townie may either fire their gun at the other player or in the air. A mafia member can only fire their gun in the air - they cannot shoot the other player.
The game ends when either:
- Any townie has shot another player
- Both players have shot the air (the game can of course be called if a townie shoots the air in front of a mafia member)
Win conditions are as before - town wins if there is no living mafia member and no dead townie, mafia wins if they survive.
Post by: webadict on December 16, 2013, 05:50:17 am
- If you're town, the chance of your opponent being mafia is 33%. So if you shoot your opponent there's a 33% chance that you'll win.This isn't how statistics work. If you're Town, there is a 50% chance the opponent is Town. That's because there are two situations:
- The chance of your opponent being town is 67%. Assuming their decision on whether or not to shoot is 50/50, that means your chance of winning on a "no shoot" is also 33%. Therefore the decision on whether to shoot or not shoot is completely unbiased, statisically.
- One interesting thing that arises in this game - regardless of your alignment you'll probably want to make it seem like you don't intend to shoot the other person. If the other player is a townie and is convinced that you will shoot them then they have no reason not to shoot you, which will make you lose.
- The main issue here is that mafia would be just a straight-up easier role than townie, and you could basically play it in the same way. I'm not sure if there's a good way of resolving this problem.
1 Town, 1 Scum
2 Town
Each situation has a 50% chance to occur. So, I dunno where you got your statistic.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 16, 2013, 09:09:46 am
2 townies (50%)
1 town, 1 scum (50%)
However, you can further subdivide the second case into
I am scum, they are town (25%)
I am town, they are scum (25%)
So our scenarios are:
1. We are both town (50%)
2. I am scum, they are town (25%)
3. I am town, they are scum (25%)
However, scenario 2 is impossible if you've received a town role PM, so we can eliminate it. Scenario 1 is twice as likely as scenario 3, therefore your opponent is twice as likely to be town as they are to be mafia.
Post by: notquitethere on December 16, 2013, 11:43:17 am
Post by: Leafsnail on December 16, 2013, 12:45:29 pm
Post by: Nerjin on December 16, 2013, 03:36:35 pm
Post by: notquitethere on December 16, 2013, 03:49:58 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on December 16, 2013, 04:01:36 pm
So in other words the mafia is weaker but has superior knowledge.
Post by: Nerjin on December 16, 2013, 04:05:46 pm
Mafia: Gains nothing, all it does is annoy the other person.
Town: Gains nothing, all it does is annoy the other person.
Again, the basic idea for either player is to simply get you to NOT shoot. Mafia has superior knowledge I guess but what can they do with it? Try to convince me not to shoot. The town player already knows 50% of the puzzle. What do they do with this? Try to get you not to shoot.
I dunno, maybe it's different in practice but I can't really see a way to play this other than saying "Regardless of what their alignment is I should always shoot."
Post by: Leafsnail on December 16, 2013, 04:15:47 pm
The thing is that town isn't just trying to not get shot - they're so trying to work out the alignment of the other player. If you work it out then you boost your winrate, and in addition a genuine investigation makes you look more town. That's your incentive to talk to them and investigate.
The mafia knows the other player is town, so they can focus on manipulating the othe person into not shooting them. However, to do this they need to fake an investigation, and do it in such a way that the other person doesn't call their bluff. e: by which I mean their investigation must reach the artificial conclusion that the other person is town, or it needs to never end. Concluding the other person is mafia isn't an option.
Post by: Nerjin on December 16, 2013, 04:26:29 pm
Well the other player is twice as likely to be town than they are to be mafia, so always shooting isn't a good strategy. It has a 33% chance of making you win, just like the not shooting strategy Your proposed strategy is basically the same as just lynching on a dice roll in any other game.
Oh well in that case I rescind my statement. You should NEVER shoot. As town your win rate becomes 2/3 of the time.
Quote
The thing is that town isn't just trying to not get shot - they're so trying to work out the alignment of the other player. If you work it out then you boost your winrate, and in addition a genuine investigation makes you look more town. That's your incentive to talk to them and investigate.
But how do you work out the alignment? Mafia and Town both want you to not shoot. But even then it's a one-day game so all you have is their word to go on and you'd have nothing to base their reactions off of.
Post by: webadict on December 16, 2013, 07:02:11 pm
There are two possible setups, yeah.Ah, I see the flaw in my logic.
2 townies (50%)
1 town, 1 scum (50%)
However, you can further subdivide the second case into
I am scum, they are town (25%)
I am town, they are scum (25%)
So our scenarios are:
1. We are both town (50%)
2. I am scum, they are town (25%)
3. I am town, they are scum (25%)
However, scenario 2 is impossible if you've received a town role PM, so we can eliminate it. Scenario 1 is twice as likely as scenario 3, therefore your opponent is twice as likely to be town as they are to be mafia.
Then, why not have it be 1/3 chance for each of the following:
TT
MT
TM
That way, the probability that your opponent is either alignment is 50% given you're Town.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 16, 2013, 11:01:04 pm
Oh well in that case I rescind my statement. You should NEVER shoot. As town your win rate becomes 2/3 of the time.That's why this statement is wrong - the other person might still shoot you. Your win rate is 1/3 if you shoot and 1/3 if you don't shoot.
But how do you work out the alignment? Mafia and Town both want you to not shoot. But even then it's a one-day game so all you have is their word to go on and you'd have nothing to base their reactions off of.You can make the same argument for any other mafia game - town and mafia both want to not get lynched, so how you meant to work out anybody's alignment? Answer: find out if they care about lynching scum or not. It's the same in this game.
Post by: notquitethere on December 17, 2013, 03:40:27 am
Post by: webadict on December 17, 2013, 07:26:36 am
That's what I did in the original Trust Mafia, but it's not what I want here. If there's a 50% chance of the other person being scum then the correct option is to shoot them - shooting a mafia member is a guaranteed win while not shooting a townie isn't (they may still go on to shoot you). This is made up for by the fact that they are twice as likely to be a townie.I don't see the issue, Leafsnail. Just have the game end as soon as one person shoots. Isn't that how Trust Mafia worked?Oh well in that case I rescind my statement. You should NEVER shoot. As town your win rate becomes 2/3 of the time.That's why this statement is wrong - the other person might still shoot you. Your win rate is 1/3 if you shoot and 1/3 if you don't shoot.But how do you work out the alignment? Mafia and Town both want you to not shoot. But even then it's a one-day game so all you have is their word to go on and you'd have nothing to base their reactions off of.You can make the same argument for any other mafia game - town and mafia both want to not get lynched, so how you meant to work out anybody's alignment? Answer: find out if they care about lynching scum or not. It's the same in this game.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 17, 2013, 08:53:31 am
You can scumhunt without night actions and voting patterns - there are some setups that start at lylo, and they basically expect you to do the same thing.
Post by: notquitethere on December 17, 2013, 08:59:57 am
Post by: Leafsnail on December 17, 2013, 04:06:13 pm
I mean it's ok if that's your opinion but there are a lot of setups with no nights and no real chance to analyze votecounts (such as SS3 which I've played quite a bit on IRC) so it clearly isn't one that everyone shares.
Post by: webadict on December 17, 2013, 06:59:49 pm
Since you don't seem to believe in any form of scumhunting other than VCA and counting people's posts I agree.Burn.
Post by: notquitethere on December 17, 2013, 07:20:04 pm
Post by: Nerjin on December 17, 2013, 07:25:33 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on December 17, 2013, 07:39:04 pm
I also think the first Trust Mafia game (which was Nerjin vs Imiknorris) had some meaningful scumhunting interactions, even if it was short. The issue that needs to be fixed is the ultimatum strategy, and giving the mafia a dummy shot should solve that.
Post by: webadict on December 17, 2013, 07:41:22 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on December 17, 2013, 08:37:28 pm
Post by: webadict on December 17, 2013, 09:36:36 pm
Well that's what I did with the new setup, basically. The problem is making it so that shooting the mafia isn't favourable always.It's... not?
How would it be favorable? It'd be a straight 50% win rate if you always shot as Town, as well never shooting as Town. Now, if you assume that you shoot 50% of the time as Town, then the win rate is:
TT
50% chance to shoot for each side means 25% win rate.
TM
50% chance to win.
MT
50% chance to win.
(.33)(.25) + (.66)(.5) = .416%
Not that skewed, considering that each side has the same win percentage. But, you're not better off shooting the other side, because a double Town loss is seen as worse than a Mafia win.
In essence, the point chart would be:
Win as Town: +1
Win as Mafia: +1
Loss as Town: -1
Loss as TT: -2
Loss as Mafia: -1
Because nobody wants to lose. But, also, if you opponent goes the dumb "Never shoot at all", then the opponent is the one that can exploit it.
Come on, Leafsnail, keep it together.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 17, 2013, 10:18:14 pm
Not that skewed, considering that each side has the same win percentage. But, you're not better off shooting the other side, because a double Town loss is seen as worse than a Mafia win.What? No it isn't. You lose just as much either way if you're a townie who's making a decision.
My point is simple: if the other player is mafia 50% of the time and town 50% of the time, then:
- Shooting them: you win 50% of the time, if they're mafia.
- Not shooting them: you lose 50% of the time, if they're mafia. Then you have an additional chance of losing if the other player decides to shoot you.
So chance of winning if you shoot = 50%. Chance of winning if you don't shoot < 50% (assuming your opponent shoots you half of the time it's 25%).
Post by: webadict on December 17, 2013, 10:23:17 pm
Yeah, but this is assuming you're playing like a douchebag. Also, that you're not playing. In the end, I would feel worse for shooting a Town following that than I would actually playing the game and not shooting a Mafia player. Because I'm not a jackass. Like most people.Not that skewed, considering that each side has the same win percentage. But, you're not better off shooting the other side, because a double Town loss is seen as worse than a Mafia win.What? No it isn't. You lose just as much either way if you're a townie who's making a decision.
My point is simple: if the other player is mafia 50% of the time and town 50% of the time, then:
- Shooting them: you win 50% of the time, if they're mafia.
- Not shooting them: you lose 50% of the time, if they're mafia. Then you have an additional chance of losing if the other player decides to shoot you.
So chance of winning if you shoot = 50%. Chance of winning if you don't shoot < 50% (assuming your opponent shoots you half of the time it's 25%).
Post by: Leafsnail on December 17, 2013, 10:31:29 pm
If you're prepared to sacrifice your chances of winning a particular game if that increases the overall number of winners shouldn't you just claim truthfully every time you get a mafia role PM? That would allow more people to win.
Post by: webadict on December 17, 2013, 10:52:03 pm
That's a really strange position to take. In fact, it actually goes against the "play to win the game you are currently playing" rule.No, this would be your solution. My solution is to treat every game as it's own, and shoot based on facts gathered. Because then the game would be fun. Which is the exact opposite of what your solution is, so I'm fairly certain that no one would play like that, because it'd be super not fun.
If you're prepared to sacrifice your chances of winning a particular game if that increases the overall number of winners shouldn't you just claim truthfully every time you get a mafia role PM? That would allow more people to win.
I have no idea why anyone would think the optimal solution would be the chosen one. We're not robots. We're not trying to protect our best interests. We're trying to read another person. Because it's a game. The optimal solution is playing the game if the other person is playing, and to not play the game if the other person isn't. It results in the highest amount of fun to be had or, rather, the least amount of unfun to be had.
So, if you simply shoot everyone at the beginning of the game, not only does everyone hate you, but no one wants to play with you. Guess you found the best answer, didn't you?
Post by: webadict on December 17, 2013, 11:20:27 pm
TT lose
TM win
MT lose
By Town not shooting, both players actually win 66% of the time. But, none of that matters, since the Mafia side doesn't count.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 18, 2013, 08:15:17 am
The idea that you should expect people to care about their opponent's victory is ridiculous, though, and I'd again say it violates the "play to win" rule. When I say "play to win" it means "try to win the game you are in", not "try to create a metagame that will allow you to win more overall even if it damages your chances this game".
Post by: webadict on December 18, 2013, 11:40:53 am
I get that people wouldn't sign up to play a game just so they could immediately shoot the other person, but there would definitely be a bias towards shooting the other player because that's more likely to make you win. Making it so that you're just as likely to win either way would be a lot better.Your logic is flawed in that it only cares about the Town side. If you always shoot, the opponent will do the same. In essence, you will lose 66% of the time, since no one would ever trust you. This is the result of not caring. You will lose every time as Mafia and half the time as Town. The other way you are given the win two thirds the time. Why? Because the other Town wins if you're Town and win. There is a net gain in win potential by not shooting for all situations.
The idea that you should expect people to care about their opponent's victory is ridiculous, though, and I'd again say it violates the "play to win" rule. When I say "play to win" it means "try to win the game you are in", not "try to create a metagame that will allow you to win more overall even if it damages your chances this game".
You can play to win and care if your opponent wins. Inherently, you are better off if both you and an opponent win. Your win is wanted above the opponent's, but having both is a better solution.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 18, 2013, 08:52:42 pm
e: Alternatively there's the "unbreakable meta-promise" where you flip a coin in your town games and make the promise on half of them. That makes you a confirmed townie pretty often without making you too much more suspicious in your scum games, and I think that's another unacceptable meta-trick.
Post by: webadict on December 18, 2013, 09:40:05 pm
I agree that if you take "play to win" to mean "play in such a way that you will win future games once your pattern has been established" then your strategy is good. However, the commonly understood interpretation is "play to win this game". Again, I'd compare it to claiming honestly every time you draw mafia. In the long run, it would probably boost your winrate by making you a confirmed townie in the majority of your games. But it's not allowed because you're damaging your chances of winning the game you are playing now.That's not true unless you accept that a majority of people care nothing for other people, which isn't true. The viable solution is to assume that your opponent is nice, until they prove otherwise, in which case you're meant to copy them.
e: Alternatively there's the "unbreakable meta-promise" where you flip a coin in your town games and make the promise on half of them. That makes you a confirmed townie pretty often without making you too much more suspicious in your scum games, and I think that's another unacceptable meta-trick.
Why?
A player who is Nice can be someone that never shoots.
A player who is Naughty can be someone that always shoots.
Two Naughty players that face each other will only win 33% of the time.
Two Nice players that face each other will win 66% of them time.
A Nice player vs a Naughty player will give the Naughty player a 66% win, and the Nice player will never win.
Two Nice players will continue to be Nice until one turns Naughty. Two Naughty players will continue to be Naughty until one can show the other one that they will play Nice.
In essence, your solution fails, because both players can be Nice and get the same win rate as only one of your Naughty players. You cannot win more by being Naughty than you can be being Nice. All you do is screw over the opponent.
Do you know the type of people that pick this route? They are the kind of people that must destroy the things they cannot have. Lacking empathy.
Your solution is faulty, and your justification comes from your own short-sightedness. Your lack of trust is evident, and it will cause everyone else to not trust you. It's a tragic spiral of defeat.
The proper response is copy your opponent. It will give you the greatest win rate for your situation. If your opponent will shoot, then you must too. If you opponent will not shoot, then you are mutually benefiting each other.
But, in the end, two Nice players will always come out ahead of everyone.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 19, 2013, 12:25:45 am
Two nice players would do best in the long run, but you could use the same argument to show that every mafia member should claim immediately in every game (if every game is a town win then everybody has a much higher win percentage).
Post by: Leafsnail on December 19, 2013, 12:38:49 am
Post by: webadict on December 19, 2013, 07:56:20 am
You've got it wrong. By copying the opponent, you are following their style of play. If they always shoot, you always shoot. If they never shoot, you never shoot. If they actually play the game, then you actually play the game.
And yeah, I could use the same argument for Mafia. If no one wants to try to play the game, the Mafia shouldn't either.
The fact that you're hung up on meta is incredibly silly. It feels like you're hung up on an invisible line you've convinced yourself exists. But it doesn't. The game, itself, is balanced. Your strategy is just inferior in theory. It only "wins" for one game. Afterward, you have broken the opponent's trust. This might be where the name comes from.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 19, 2013, 08:38:19 am
- Shooting: you win 33% of the time, when your opponent is mafia
- Not shooting: you lose 33% of the time, when your opponent is mafia. You then lose a further 33% of the time if your opponent shoots you, for a total of 33%. So it's the same as shooting.
Or, from the point of view of someone who's just seen their opponent not shoot:
- If your opponent had a 50/50 chance of shooting when town, then three possibilities existed.
1. Your opponent is a townie who shoots (33%)
2. Your opponent is a townie who does not shoot (33%)
3. Your opponent is a mafia member who cannot shoot (33%)
If your opponent went with no shot then 1) is eliminated. So you're left with the equally likely option 2 and option 3 - and again, you have an equal chance of being correct either way.
And something only needs to work for one game for it to be worth doing. My win in Prince's Guard (and to a lesser degree Bellsounder and that Supernatural game where I was a devil) has probably damaged my long-term winning prospects by making it so that no-one will ever trust a plan proposed by me again. But your goal should always be to win the game you are currently playing, so I still proposed those plans.
Post by: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 08:46:46 am
Post by: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 01:20:41 pm
Post by: zombie urist on December 20, 2013, 03:17:27 am
Basically a series of murder mysteries. Everyone is super good at something (baseball, singing, etc). A person is selected as the murderer and he chooses who to kill at night. Then during daytime players roleplay and interact with the scene and each other to piece together clues and correctly determine the murderer.
Its only semi-mafia because scumhunting isn't really the main focus of the game, but can be utilized with your investigations to find the culprit.
Playing the visual novel/watching the anime shouldn't be necessary.
Post by: webadict on December 20, 2013, 07:34:15 am
Dangan Ronpa semi-mafia.Well, why can't you set up fake clues for either the scum to "find" or the others to find. You could make scumhunting a thing if you tried.
Basically a series of murder mysteries. Everyone is super good at something (baseball, singing, etc). A person is selected as the murderer and he chooses who to kill at night. Then during daytime players roleplay and interact with the scene and each other to piece together clues and correctly determine the murderer.
Its only semi-mafia because scumhunting isn't really the main focus of the game, but can be utilized with your investigations to find the culprit.
Playing the visual novel/watching the anime shouldn't be necessary.
Post by: ToonyMan on December 20, 2013, 02:05:35 pm
Starts here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=44314.msg4369735#msg4369735)
Post by: Leafsnail on December 20, 2013, 02:17:24 pm
One way it could work is if the culprit and mod devised the mystery together, so it's not just something the culprit gets handed down.
Post by: webadict on December 20, 2013, 02:33:17 pm
I like the idea of forum mysteries but I don't think they mesh too well with mafia. Either the mystery has to be unsolvable or the mafia has a chance of being hit by something out of their control.If the mafia had no hand in it, it would be upsetting. Makes sense.
One way it could work is if the culprit and mod devised the mystery together, so it's not just something the culprit gets handed down.
Post by: zombie urist on December 20, 2013, 03:15:14 pm
One way it could work is if the culprit and mod devised the mystery together, so it's not just something the culprit gets handed down.This is an interesting idea. I guess the mod could create a skeleton plot and have the scum revise it and such.
Either the mystery has to be unsolvable or the mafia has a chance of being hit by something out of their control.My original idea was to have clues that could point to multiple people and the better the town's investigations the more meaningful the clues would be. There would also be misleading things and red herrings. The culprit would be given the option of who to kill, how, where etc which would impact the town's investigations. I.E. if the scum made a kill in a room adjacent to one which another player was in that player might hear something. Also kills won't necessarily happen at night. hmm this is started to become too complicated.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 20, 2013, 03:26:27 pm
I've also been meaning to post a murder mystery puzzle in FG&R for ages though, I should probably get to doing that.
Post by: birdy51 on December 20, 2013, 04:32:11 pm
Post by: zombie urist on December 26, 2013, 11:53:05 pm
A player wins if he/she kills another person and gets away with it.
There will be some "explore" phases. At the end of the explore phase everyone PM's the mod a role-play type action to examine a room and such. The "better" the roleplay the better the result. After a kill is committed, the game will enter the "search" phases. Search phase works the same way as explore phase except clues more likely related to the murder will be found. Once again better searching will give better results. The murderer can use the search phases to cover up evidence and misguide town into searching the wrong areas and such. After the search phases the game goes to the "trial" phase. People discuss the evidence and lynch a person. If the person lynched is innocent, the killer wins. Otherwise the game goes to another set of explore phases and so on.
Every player will be given a set of "skills" to use based a talent theme. For example if someone was good at basketball he might be able to reach places other people can't, etc. Players should consider these skills when choosing who to kill and how, etc.
Every player will have a "synergy gain" with other players. If two characters hate each other and both search the same area, neither will get a good result, but if two characters work well together, then if they both search the same room their results will be augmented. This is to prevent everyone from pairing up which would make it really easy to determine a killer.
If the game goes for too many explore phases everyone will lose.
PMing will be allowed in every phase except the trial phase.
Post by: makeinu on December 31, 2013, 09:53:11 am
The Meta-Scenario:
Even as you read this, in an infinite number of parallel worlds, an infinite number of players are reading a thread more or less like this one. In each of those worlds, the players will be playing a very simple Mafia game. Their rules will be as follows:
Quote
Players are either Town or Corrupt; there are no Independents.
The Townies win when they have lynched all the Corrupt.
The Corrupt win when they are equal or superior in number to the Townies.
Players, whether Town or Corrupt, do *not* have to survive to win. Townies, living or dead, win when the Town wins. The Corrupt, living or dead, win when the Corrupt win.
Days last 24 hours, and begin at 20:00 server.
Every day, all living players must vote to lynch one of their number. Voting is mandatory. If a player has not voted by the end of the day, he is deemed to have voted for himself.
The player with the most votes will be lynched. A majority is not necessary. The dice will decide any ties.
Nights last 24 hours, and begin at 20:00 server. Players may not post to the thread at night.
Every night, the Godfather must send that night's kill target to the GM.
If the Godfather is lynched, another one of the Corrupt becomes the Godfather.
The Corrupt may not kill one of their own.
Every night, all potential Investigators must send their night's Investigation targets to the GM.
There are no powers other than alignment Investigators. However, all Townies believe themselves to be alignment Investigators until one of their conclusions is proven wrong (think *Clue*). One of the Townies is actually an alignment Investigator whose conclusions are always correct.
All the other Townies receive random results each night until one of their random results is proven wrong.
A dead player may make a single death post to the thread. He or she may not otherwise communicate with other players.
As metaplayers in the Quantum Mafia metagame, an abstraction of all of those hundreds of games, you will follow all the rules of those basic games, except that you may post to our metathread whenever you like.
Game Mechanics:
Before the start of each Day, each Metaplayer is PM'D his/her current Corrupt/Town percentage.
At the start of the game, all Metaplayers will have the same chance of being Town or of being Corrupt, and all Metaplayers will believe themselves to be Investigators. Although this game is being played in hundreds of parallel worlds, we will assume that each player makes the same choice of lynch vote, and, if applicable, the same choice of night kill or Investigation target, in each of those hundreds of worlds. So you only need to send me one lynch vote each day and, if applicable, one night-kill vote or Investigation target per night.
Night kills only take effect when the Godfather is lynched. All players killed by the Godfather immediately become 100% dead and out of the game, and they stand revealed at that time as 100% Town, since the Corrupt cannot kill their own. Whenever a Metaplayer is determined to be Corrupt, he or she *will* prove to be the Godfather. (The uncertainty about that is only a feature of the basic game, not the Metagame.)
Lynchings take effect at once. A player who has been lynched is 100% dead and out of the game.
If the true Investigator is killed, then he or she is revealed in death as the true Investigator and all of his or her conclusions become true. There is only One True Investigator; once he/she is dead, that's it for Investigation.
Quantum ghosts (players actually night-killed earlier, but not yet known to be dead) may behave as though they were alive until they are determined to be 100% dead. (What, you've never heard of entire graveyards voting?)[/quote]
Post by: Leafsnail on December 31, 2013, 10:04:14 am
Post by: Leafsnail on December 31, 2013, 10:13:43 am