Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 02:59:17 pm

Title: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 02:59:17 pm
So, check this out, fellow gamers. It's freakin' scary. Actually, let me revise that statement: it's fucking scary.

ETA: Wow, this junk is even on wiki already.

Quote
    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTA_treaty

    ACTA would establish a new international legal framework that countries can join on a voluntary basis[1] and would create its own governing body outside existing international institutions such as the World Trade Organization (WTO), the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) or the United Nations.[4][12] Citing a fact sheet published by the Office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR) and the USTR's 2008 Special 301 report the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) states that the goal of ACTA is to create a new standard of intellectual property enforcement beyond the existing standards in the TRIPs Agreement and to increase international cooperation, including the sharing of information between signatory countries' law enforcement agencies.[2]

    According to the European Commission the goal of ACTA is to establish an international framework that improves the enforcement of existing intellectual property right laws. The Commission states that ACTA is to create improved international standards for actions against large-scale infringements of intellectual property. To this end ACTA will have three primary components: "international cooperation"; "enforcement practices"; and "legal framework for enforcement of intellectual property rights". The "ultimate objective" of ACTA is that large emerging economies, "where intellectual property rights enforcement could be improved, such as China, Russia or Brazil, will sign up to the global pact".[8] According to New Zealand ACTA aims to facilitate a "strong and modern legal framework so that law enforcement agencies, the judiciary, and private citizens have the most up-to-date tools necessary to effectively bring counterfeiters and pirates to justice." Areas for possible ACTA provisions include: criminal enforcement, border measures, civil enforcement, optical disc piracy, and Internet distribution and information technology.[13]

http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-6197-0-32-32--.html

Quote
Source: Electronic Frontier Foundation

The internet chapter of the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement, a secret copyright treaty whose text Obama’s administration refused to disclose due to “national security” concerns, has leaked. It’s bad. It says:

* That ISPs have to proactively police copyright on user-contributed material. This means that it will be impossible to run a service like Flickr or YouTube or Blogger, since hiring enough lawyers to ensure that the mountain of material uploaded every second isn’t infringing will exceed any hope of profitability.

* That ISPs have to cut off the Internet access of accused copyright infringers or face liability. This means that your entire family could be denied to the internet — and hence to civic participation, health information, education, communications, and their means of earning a living — if one member is accused of copyright infringement, without access to a trial or counsel.

* That the whole world must adopt US-style “notice-and-takedown” rules that require ISPs to remove any material that is accused — again, without evidence or trial — of infringing copyright. This has proved a disaster in the US and other countries, where it provides an easy means of censoring material, just by accusing it of infringing copyright.

* Mandatory prohibitions on breaking DRM, even if doing so for a lawful purpose (e.g., to make a work available to disabled people; for archival preservation; because you own the copyrighted work that is locked up with DRM)

H/T @miccolis, @ilabra & @exposur3

MORE:
The ACTA Internet Chapter: Putting the Pieces Together

From EFF.org:

Negotiations on the highly controversial Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement start in a few hours in Seoul, South Korea. This week’s closed negotiations will focus on “enforcement in the digital environment.” Negotiators will be discussing the Internet provisions drafted by the US government. No text has been officially released but as Professor Michael Geist and IDG are reporting, leaks have surfaced. The leaks confirm everything that we feared about the secret ACTA negotiations. The Internet provisions have nothing to do with addressing counterfeit products, but are all about imposing a set of copyright industry demands on the global Internet, including obligations on ISPs to adopt Three Strikes Internet disconnection policies, and a global expansion of DMCA-style TPM laws.

As expected, the Internet provisions will go beyond existing international treaty obligations and follow the language of Article 18.10.30 of the recent U.S. – South Korea Free Trade Agreement. We see three points of concern.

First, according to the leaks, ACTA member countries will be required to provide for third-party (Internet Intermediary) liability. This is not required by any of the major international IP treaties – not by the 1994 Trade Related Aspects of IP agreement, nor the WIPO Copyright and WIPO Performances and Phonograms Treaty. However, US copyright owners have long sought this. (For instance, see page 19 of the Industry Functional Advisory Committee report on the 2003 US- Singapore Free Trade Agreement noting the need for introducing a system of ISP liability). (Previously available at http://www.ustr.gov/...r_reports.htm.)

Second and more importantly, ACTA will include some limitations on Internet Intermediary liability. Many ACTA negotiating countries already have these regimes in place: the US, EU, Australia, Japan, South Korea. To get the benefit of the ACTA safe harbors, Internet intermediaries will need to follow notice and takedown regimes, and put in place policies to deter unauthorized storage and transmission of allegedly copyright infringing content.

Read the rest here

More stuff:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/181312/trade_talks_hone_in_on_internet_abuse_and_isp_liability.html

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4510/125/

Quote
The United States has drafted the chapter under enormous secrecy, with selected groups granted access under strict non-disclosure agreements and other countries (including Canada) given physical, watermarked copies designed to guard against leaks.

Despite the efforts to combat leaks, information on the Internet chapter has begun to emerge (just as they did with the other elements of the treaty).  Sources say that the draft text, modeled on the U.S.-South Korea free trade agreement, focuses on following five issues:

1.   Baseline obligations inspired by Article 41 of the TRIPs which focuses on the enforcement of intellectual property.

2.   A requirement to establish third-party liability for copyright infringement.

3.   Restrictions on limitations to 3rd party liability (ie. limited safe harbour rules for ISPs).  For example, in order for ISPs to qualify for a safe harbour, they would be required establish policies to deter unauthorized storage and transmission of IP infringing content.  Provisions are modeled under the U.S.-Korea Free Trade Agreement, namely Article 18.10.30.  They include policies to terminate subscribers in appropriate circumstances.  Notice-and-takedown, which is not currently the law in Canada nor a requirement under WIPO, would also be an ACTA requirement.

4.   Anti-circumvention legislation that establishes a WIPO+ model by adopting both the WIPO Internet Treaties and the language currently found in U.S. free trade agreements that go beyond the WIPO treaty requirements.  For example, the U.S.-South Korea free trade agreement specifies the permitted exceptions to anti-circumvention rules.  These follow the DMCA model (reverse engineering, computer testing, privacy, etc.) and do not include a fair use/fair dealing exception.  Moreover, the free trade agreement clauses also include a requirement to ban the distribution of circumvention devices.  The current draft does not include any obligation to ensure interoperability of DRM.

5.   Rights Management provisions, also modeled on U.S. free trade treaty language.

Revised somewhat: it appears you CAN find this on google by just typing in 'secret copyright treaty leaked'. Google's search algorithm just sucks more than I thought.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Dakk on November 05, 2009, 03:05:33 pm
What.

This is just a carefully played joke this is just a carefully played joke this is just a carefully played joke this is just a carefully played joke this is just a carefully played joke this is just a carefully played joke this is just a carefully played joke this is just a carefully played joke.

Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neonivek on November 05, 2009, 03:05:53 pm
Well it is going to happen eventually, but it seems unfortunate that this may make running a website impossible anyhow.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Dakk on November 05, 2009, 03:08:00 pm
If the world becomes a 1984 mockup in the next years, I'm joining the Liberal Crime Squad.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Armok on November 05, 2009, 03:09:28 pm
This can't be real... right?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 03:09:50 pm
Nope, this is totally serious. Try typing the search into google, then Bing, yourself.

However, it probably won't be long before Bing censors the same stuff, so... yeah. You might want to do it now, while you can.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neonivek on November 05, 2009, 03:10:37 pm
If the world becomes a 1984 mockup in the next years, I'm joining the Liberal Crime Squad.

Not the world, just the internet.

I have no problem with internet monitoring if they follow certain rules similar to what the police have when investigating.

These however don't seem to.

It is also hillariously abusable! It is basically pandering to large corperations. Want to stop a small buisness from running a successful website? For pennies you just attack your competition with accusations!

-There was a Judge a while back who charged a drycleaner millions of dollars for his pants. People on the internet thought he was parodying the way these cases are done. HECK NO! he INTENTIONALLY made the claim unreasonable not because he was fighting an unfair justice system but because constantly sending the small time drycleaners back to court would cost them much more money then paying for a reasonable settlement ever would. It is a common strategy to bankrupt people by constantly sending them to court, one of my mother's friends has a daughter who is basically becoming broke because her Ex-Husband is doing this to her.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Myroc on November 05, 2009, 03:12:25 pm
...

WHAT?

...

WHAT?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 03:15:18 pm
@ Neonivek:

You do realize that if this gets passed, it would be several orders of magnitude WORSE than the Patriot Act, right?

I'm doing my part by posting it wherever I can to make sure word gets out.  :(
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Cthulhu on November 05, 2009, 03:16:03 pm
If the world becomes a 1984 mockup in the next years, I'm joining the Liberal Crime Squad.

This is happening under a liberal administration.  Since the conservatives have taken steps of their own to harsh our collective mellows in the past, I think the best choice is to join the Independent Crime Squad.

Or just hope people come to their senses and realize this is retarded.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neonivek on November 05, 2009, 03:17:42 pm
@ Neonivek:

You do realize that if this gets passed, it would be several orders of magnitude WORSE than the Patriot Act, right?

I'm doing my part by posting it wherever I can to make sure word gets out.  :(

Heck according to this act a company (or heck anyone) could effectively eliminate Dwarf Fortress by accusing it of copyright issues. Without any legal action needing to take place.

Anyhow I somewhat doubt this is what is going to be enacted (it needs serious tweeking and part of this requires global concent). I understand that at the heart of things they want people to be accountable for their actions... they have taken it to degrees that break the constitutions beyond the Patriot act though... and they had to seek exceptions and start a war just to get the Patriot Act to work!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: DennyTom on November 05, 2009, 03:18:34 pm
a) I had no trouble searching this on Google
b) Since my english sucks I do not understand the first and third point. Does the first one mean that you have to prove that your material does not break law and then you can upload it? And the third - who is writing this? How can you make whole-world law?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 03:23:25 pm
Yeah, I just noticed typing in only 'secret copyright treaty leaked' to google actually churns out results. So I'd have to say google isn't being censored as I originally thought - it's just got a shittier search algorithm.

ETA: Fixed the original post.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: chaoticag on November 05, 2009, 03:24:13 pm
Google simply cannot handle that many words in search terms.

But yes, this law sucks, and will slow down your internet speed to an ungodly slow speed. Besides, what ever happened to the criminal's right to a speedy trial? Innocent untill proven guilty? If the US goes back on those constitutional rights, then who knows what might happen next.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: DennyTom on November 05, 2009, 03:25:55 pm
Yeah, I just noticed typing in only 'secret copyright treaty leaked' to google actually churns out results. So I'd have to say google isn't being censored as I originally thought - it's just got a shittier search algorithm.

I did exactly the same search as you and I have about 10 500 results ...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neonivek on November 05, 2009, 03:27:07 pm
Well here is what I understand

Quote
* That ISPs have to proactively police copyright on user-contributed material. This means that it will be impossible to run a service like Flickr or YouTube or Blogger, since hiring enough lawyers to ensure that the mountain of material uploaded every second isn’t infringing will exceed any hope of profitability.
-Internet Service Providers are requires to sift through all their materials to see if they are copyrighted

Quote
* That ISPs have to cut off the Internet access of accused copyright infringers or face liability. This means that your entire family could be denied to the internet — and hence to civic participation, health information, education, communications, and their means of earning a living — if one member is accused of copyright infringement, without access to a trial or counsel.
-Internet service providers are requires to shut off the internet of an entire household if someone is ACCUSED. (not even convicted)

Quote
* That the whole world must adopt US-style “notice-and-takedown” rules that require ISPs to remove any material that is accused — again, without evidence or trial — of infringing copyright. This has proved a disaster in the US and other countries, where it provides an easy means of censoring material, just by accusing it of infringing copyright.
-ISPs must take down copyrighted material upon accusation without legal recourse. (In otherwords "Guilty until proven innocent")

Quote
* Mandatory prohibitions on breaking DRM, even if doing so for a lawful purpose (e.g., to make a work available to disabled people; for archival preservation; because you own the copyrighted work that is locked up with DRM)
-You are unable to modify material from the internet to suit either personal use or to allow the material to be accessed by, for example, the disabled. I believe this also means you cannot translate a book online and then send the translation to someone.
--Yeah this makes no sense to me. That is my best guess.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 03:27:19 pm
How can you make whole-world law?

The UN already does this (or tries), up to and including ordering countries not to research nuclear warfare and other weapons. Why should you be so surprised when quote-on-quote 'worldwide' treaties are made to regulate other things?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: nil on November 05, 2009, 03:27:44 pm

This is happening under a liberal administration.  Since the conservatives have taken steps of their own to harsh our collective mellows in the past, I think the best choice is to join the Independent Crime Squad.

For the record, just because he's a Democrat doesn't mean he's a liberal.

Shitty treaty, though.  To the darknets!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 03:28:39 pm
Yeah, I just noticed typing in only 'secret copyright treaty leaked' to google actually churns out results. So I'd have to say google isn't being censored as I originally thought - it's just got a shittier search algorithm.

I did exactly the same search as you and I have about 10 500 results ...

Er... yeah. We already covered this?

The law itself is still ridiculously Orwellian and frightening.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Myroc on November 05, 2009, 03:29:17 pm
But yes, this law sucks, and will slow down your internet speed to an ungodly slow speed. Besides, what ever happened to the criminal's right to a speedy trial? Innocent untill proven guilty? If the US goes back on those constitutional rights, then who knows what might happen next.
Yeah, this is what bothers me the most. The US was FOUNDED on those principles, and now they throw out a law which says "Up yours" right in it's face?

This has to be some horrible, horrible joke.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Dasleah on November 05, 2009, 03:31:33 pm
Nice using yourself as a source there, Mr. Blog. That's real credible.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neonivek on November 05, 2009, 03:32:27 pm
Not a joke the point of some of these laws are two fold
1) They are meant as a "Just in case" leftover law made to be implimented at a much later date (The Patriot Act for example is old!)
2) It is basically a brainstorm pad made to be reworked until it works.

Dang it Barak Obama I am starting to think your an EVIL genius. A lot of these things you tried to do seem to pervert into villainy (actually I am thinking of ONE thing)

This assumes it is real.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 03:35:10 pm
http://www.pcworld.com/article/181312/trade_talks_hone_in_on_internet_abuse_and_isp_liability.html

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4510/125/

Here's more, if you're one of those people who believes that our wonderful government could never do any wrong.

Quote
The United States has drafted the chapter under enormous secrecy, with selected groups granted access under strict non-disclosure agreements and other countries (including Canada) given physical, watermarked copies designed to guard against leaks.

Despite the efforts to combat leaks, information on the Internet chapter has begun to emerge (just as they did with the other elements of the treaty).  Sources say that the draft text, modeled on the U.S.-South Korea free trade agreement, focuses on following five issues:

1.   Baseline obligations inspired by Article 41 of the TRIPs which focuses on the enforcement of intellectual property.

2.   A requirement to establish third-party liability for copyright infringement.

3.   Restrictions on limitations to 3rd party liability (ie. limited safe harbour rules for ISPs).  For example, in order for ISPs to qualify for a safe harbour, they would be required establish policies to deter unauthorized storage and transmission of IP infringing content.  Provisions are modeled under the U.S.-Korea Free Trade Agreement, namely Article 18.10.30.  They include policies to terminate subscribers in appropriate circumstances.  Notice-and-takedown, which is not currently the law in Canada nor a requirement under WIPO, would also be an ACTA requirement.

4.   Anti-circumvention legislation that establishes a WIPO+ model by adopting both the WIPO Internet Treaties and the language currently found in U.S. free trade agreements that go beyond the WIPO treaty requirements.  For example, the U.S.-South Korea free trade agreement specifies the permitted exceptions to anti-circumvention rules.  These follow the DMCA model (reverse engineering, computer testing, privacy, etc.) and do not include a fair use/fair dealing exception.  Moreover, the free trade agreement clauses also include a requirement to ban the distribution of circumvention devices.  The current draft does not include any obligation to ensure interoperability of DRM.

5.   Rights Management provisions, also modeled on U.S. free trade treaty language.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Itnetlolor on November 05, 2009, 03:40:48 pm
Has anyone tried to refer this to Snopes.com?

We need to be certain this isn't fake. In a way, I do hope it's fake. It seems too inhumane to be real.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: The Doctor on November 05, 2009, 03:44:38 pm
I think it's a tactic.

Make an impossibly inhuman law proposal, that there is no way people will get behind.

Then, in a few months or so, "leak" the real law they want, and people will feel that they're really compromising, while instead the first one was intentionally over the top.

Exploiting the whole "lesser of two evils" thing.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on November 05, 2009, 03:45:12 pm
I'm seeing a lot of "interpretations" of what this mysterious Treaty From Hell supposedly says.  Is there, like, an actual copy of it somewhere to be read?  Or is this just all stuff posted by some blogger who got it from a guy who knows a guy who totally read the treaty in the secret smoke-filled room it was written in?

Also, it's a treaty, not a law.  It has to actually be ratified by Congress to have any effect, and the U.S. is rather notorious for not only not ratifying treaties that would constitute an international law, but also not enforcing them.  And even if this did somehow get passed, I guarantee the ACLU and EFF are going into action that day.

That also seems like a huge enforcement issue to me.  Who the Hell is actually going to the trouble of sifting through THE ENTIRE INTERNET to shut off access to anyone who might possibly have copyrighted material they can't immediately provide proof of legitimate purchase for?

Yeah, if this thing is even real, it's not getting on the books, it's not going to stay there if it does, and it would be impossible to enforce if it somehow did.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 05, 2009, 03:46:45 pm
Hmm, I thought those things were only happening in Britain.

By the way, if anyone from my Virgin ISP is reading this: Fuck you.  Stop spying on me and fix my dodgy internet connection, you bastard.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 03:50:28 pm
I just submitted it to Snopes and shall be awaiting their reply. If it IS fake, I'll dance a little jig and have a shot of vodka.

@Aqizzar:

Yeah, you'd think there would be HUGE enforcement issues with this. But then again, just because the Patriot Act allows unwarranted wiretapping doesn't mean every phone line in the entire United States is tapped. It probably just means they'd need much less reason to actually charge someone for copyright-related crimes. That, I suspect, is what this whole ordeal boils down to.

By the way, if you don't think a country CAN'T monitor their entire internet, look up some stuff about how much trouble it is to get around government-enforced censors and spyware in a place like Iran. You'd be amazed.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Rashilul on November 05, 2009, 03:53:06 pm
I agree with Aqizzar on this.

Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 03:56:06 pm
Not that I'm saying there's no possibility that it won't be passed, but... you guys are seriously saying it has to be fake because there's no chance that the same national government that passed the Patriot Act without a national vote could do this?

Hahaha.  :D Again, I'm not saying there's no chance it's fake, but if you guys think it COULDN'T be real... I call that denial.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neonivek on November 05, 2009, 03:59:12 pm
Hmm, I thought those things were only happening in Britain.

What The United Kingdom is currently doing is unfortunately a lot less interesting when you look into it a bit further.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Itnetlolor on November 05, 2009, 03:59:26 pm
I think ever since Obama took out Workerdrone's livestream of XCOM because of 'Too Many Buttons', there was a security leak, and the government doesn't want to go through a ton of red tape to get their job done.

This will only make the cut-outs a little easier to handle at a "legal" scale.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on November 05, 2009, 04:01:13 pm
Not that I'm saying there's no possibility that it won't be passed, but... you guys are seriously saying it has to be fake because there's no chance that the same national government that passed the Patriot Act without a national vote could do this?

Hahaha.  :D Again, I'm not saying there's no chance it's fake, but if you guys think it COULDN'T be real... I call that denial.

Firstly, it's 2009, not 2006.  The situation in Congress is quite different, and they have in the past and recently again shot down several pieces of legislation that would have expanded ISP's power over connections and content (remember all that Net Neutrality boojum?).

And the Patriot Act is a pretty good example of why I'm not worried.  Essentially, the CIA conned the Congress into making the phone companies wire effectively (copies of) all telephone communications through one room at Langly.  Do you know what they've done with that extraordinary information?  Exactly nothing, because it's way beyond the capability of even the CIA, much less whatever pitiful organization this responsibility would get shafted to, to wrangle all that content.

I'm all for cynicism, but don't take the flying leap over to conspiracy theories.

I think ever since Obama took out Workerdrone's livestream of XCOM because of 'Too Many Buttons', there was a security leak, and the government doesn't want to go through a ton of red tape to get their job done.

Although I obviously could be wrong...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 05, 2009, 04:01:53 pm
It's pretty similar, really.  Spying on everyone to prevent piracy.  Personally, I think that if the music industry are so broke, they should stop spending millions of pounds taking Peter Mandelson on trips on their yachts lobbying the government.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: DennyTom on November 05, 2009, 04:06:20 pm
How can you make whole-world law?

The UN already does this (or tries), up to and including ordering countries not to research nuclear warfare and other weapons. Why should you be so surprised when quote-on-quote 'worldwide' treaties are made to regulate other things?

That is pretty crazy analogy. You cannot force the whole world to use US copyright inquisition rules with one US law. How would you force the whole world to adopt it?

I also would like to see whole unedited material. I am not saying it is not true, it is just a "too-bad-to-be-true" story.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neonivek on November 05, 2009, 04:07:50 pm
Though there was one thing that was interesting.

Isn't there controvercy with Cable companies having the ability to charge whatever they want for certain channels including local? Effectively it means that public/local channels could be driven into the dust.

Oddly enough when the Local channels lost (or won) they now want a peice of the money the cable companies earn.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 04:08:33 pm
Well, I'll be waiting for Snopes to reply on this. I highly doubt an entire conference in Seoul was just imagined up by some conspiracy theorists, man. I completely understand your caution in buying into the idea that our government is going to be monitoring our every keystroke or whatever, but frankly I do not find the idea that they are trying to put more restrictive laws on the flow of information and copyrighted material in place. No, this isn't the world of 1984, but it sure as hell isn't the world of Sesame Street, either.  ::)

DennyTom: I doubt they actually expect the entire world to go along with whatever 'treaty' they end up signing. As Aqizzar said, even if it is passed, it probably won't be enforced word per word. I would think it would just be a way to lower the legal hurdles involved in trying to prosecute people for copyright infringement.

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTA_treaty

Yeah, I'm still waiting on Snopes to reply, but I'm fairly sure this is legit. Look at the wiki link.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Tack on November 05, 2009, 04:10:11 pm
How can you make whole-world law?

The UN already does this (or tries), up to and including ordering countries not to research nuclear warfare and other weapons. Why should you be so surprised when quote-on-quote 'worldwide' treaties are made to regulate other things?

That is pretty crazy analogy. You cannot force the whole world to use US copyright inquisition rules with one US law. How would you force the whole world to adopt it?

I also would like to see whole unedited material. I am not saying it is not true, it is just a "too-bad-to-be-true" story.

Funny how everyone is laughing at Australia cos' we're getting our porn blocked, and now you're getting your everything blocked.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 04:13:03 pm
Quote
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTA_treaty

ACTA would establish a new international legal framework that countries can join on a voluntary basis[1] and would create its own governing body outside existing international institutions such as the World Trade Organization (WTO), the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) or the United Nations.[4][12] Citing a fact sheet published by the Office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR) and the USTR's 2008 Special 301 report the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) states that the goal of ACTA is to create a new standard of intellectual property enforcement beyond the existing standards in the TRIPs Agreement and to increase international cooperation, including the sharing of information between signatory countries' law enforcement agencies.[2]

According to the European Commission the goal of ACTA is to establish an international framework that improves the enforcement of existing intellectual property right laws. The Commission states that ACTA is to create improved international standards for actions against large-scale infringements of intellectual property. To this end ACTA will have three primary components: "international cooperation"; "enforcement practices"; and "legal framework for enforcement of intellectual property rights". The "ultimate objective" of ACTA is that large emerging economies, "where intellectual property rights enforcement could be improved, such as China, Russia or Brazil, will sign up to the global pact".[8] According to New Zealand ACTA aims to facilitate a "strong and modern legal framework so that law enforcement agencies, the judiciary, and private citizens have the most up-to-date tools necessary to effectively bring counterfeiters and pirates to justice." Areas for possible ACTA provisions include: criminal enforcement, border measures, civil enforcement, optical disc piracy, and Internet distribution and information technology.[13]

Here you go.

ETA: Ah. Also from wiki, here's why there's no hard copy of this thing circulating yet:

Quote
The negotiations for the ACTA treaty are conducted in secrecy[4][5][6][7] and are not part of any international organisation.[1] The European Commission, the Office of the United States Trade Representative, the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and other government agencies have acknowledged participating in ACTA negotiations, but they have refused to release drafts of the treaty or to discuss specific terms under discussion in the negotiations.[4]

In November 2008 the European Commission stated that thus far there had been three rounds of negotiations: early June 2008 in Geneva, end of July 2008 in Washington, mid October 2008 in Tokyo.[8] A fourth round of negotiations were held in Paris, mid December 2008, and a fifth round in Morocco, in July 2009.[9] Participants at Morocco indicated that they currently sought to conclude the agreement "as early as possible in 2010", and that the next round of negotiations would be held in South Korea in November 2009. [9]
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Akigagak on November 05, 2009, 04:19:16 pm
Wikipedia as a source.

No.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 04:21:38 pm
If you feel like going through all the sources listed on that page and disputing them all, be my guest...  :o

ETA: Anyway, I'm just gonna wait for Snopes to reply. If people seriously want to pretend that there's no chance this is real, it's fine with me... but how do you breath, with your head in the sand like that?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on November 05, 2009, 04:27:05 pm
ETA: Anyway, I'm just gonna wait for Snopes to reply. If people seriously want to pretend that there's no chance this is real, it's fine with me... but how do you breath, with your head in the sand like that?

No one's saying the treaty discussion didn't happen, and I for one will thank you to keep your sanctimony to yourself.  We're saying that A) it's not what it's being made out to me, and until it's publicly visible that will remain so, and/or B) even if it's real, I'll remunerate all my criticisms of adoption and enforcement from above.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 04:28:21 pm
Quote
Source: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/09/digital-rights-groups-sue-for-access-to-secret-acta-treaty.ars

Public statements have indicated that ACTA is meant to be wrapped up by the end of 2008, so groups that want to affect the process need to act quickly. The federal suit asks a judge to force USTR to process the FOIA request, to do so in an expedited manner, and to award attorneys' fees to the plaintiffs.

ACTA is currently being negotiated by the US, Canada, the European Community, Switzerland, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, Jordan, Morocco, and the United Arab Emirates.

'Sanctimony'? I already agreed with you that I don't expect enforcement to be on par with what's actually written. Rather, I was just amazed that even posting something like this gets frank incredulity and skepticism about the poster, not the information itself. So my snarkiness was in response to the 'conspiracy theorist' stuff. I'm not exactly saying the twin towers were detonated by flash charges or something here.  ::)

ETA: FFS, I didn't even claim this stuff was TRUE, I've just thrown up links and said I think it's probably legit. Yeah... I'm out of this discussion, and board, for a while. Ciao.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: DennyTom on November 05, 2009, 04:31:18 pm
How can you make whole-world law?

The UN already does this (or tries), up to and including ordering countries not to research nuclear warfare and other weapons. Why should you be so surprised when quote-on-quote 'worldwide' treaties are made to regulate other things?

That is pretty crazy analogy. You cannot force the whole world to use US copyright inquisition rules with one US law. How would you force the whole world to adopt it?

I also would like to see whole unedited material. I am not saying it is not true, it is just a "too-bad-to-be-true" story.

Funny how everyone is laughing at Australia cos' we're getting our porn blocked, and now you're getting your everything blocked.

<trolling> And from what do you deduce I (or many other people here) am from US? </trolling>


Using Wiki as a source can be very dangerous. The fact, they list sources DOES NOT mean the article speaks the truth. I agree with waiting for more information.

@Lord Dullard: How do we breath? Pretty easily - internet (well ... real life also) is a place where SO MUCH informations are lies that we are trained to not believe.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jude on November 05, 2009, 04:38:21 pm
I'm gonna wait until I hear about it in the real news media. Otherwise I'll consider it just a bunch more tinfoil-hattery, which is what it appears to be. A secret treaty written at a top secret conference? Who leaked it then, and given how radical this is, why haven't any other media picked it up?

Sure, it COULD be true. So could alien abductions, 9/11 conspiracies, holocaust denial and unicorns. But just because it could be true in theory doesn't make it believable enough for me to buy it.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 05, 2009, 04:47:25 pm
http://www.cnet.com/8301-19709_1-10390861-10.html

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/policy-laundering/

I'll be honest, you guys have kinda offended me. I'm not bothered at all by the skepticism towards the story, which I find completely understandable, but rather just your general rudeness and 'tinfoil-hattery' shit. All I'm doing is checking google news and posting results... I don't recall seeing any claims of alien abduction up there.

So yeah, I raise my middle finger in your general direction, and I take my leave of this forum. I'm not some schmuck who buys into every stupid wacko conspiracy story that I see and I'm generally a fairly moderate guy, and found this alarming and interesting. And I've been posting here long enough to where I expected I wouldn't be treated as if I'd just, y'know, logged on as a guest and said 'hey. this is real, BETTER BELEIVE ME'.

Possibly I'm over-reacting a bit but I still feel rather insulted and have no real interest in posting here anymore. Au revoir, DF is a great game, thanks Toady! I'll still play faithfully. :)
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Dwarf on November 05, 2009, 04:53:20 pm
Nicely done, people. You've arsed him out.
(http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/facepalm.gif)

On a general note:

I'm not sure if this is BS or not BS, but if it gets through,
It's time for another revolution. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpx6oPDe7Fs&feature=related)

However, what I think is much more important:
How can the government be so lobby'd that the mere entertainment industry can even make the government seriously think about this crap?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Cthulhu on November 05, 2009, 05:20:35 pm
I agree, Dwarf.  If the government passes an unenforceable law that would interfere with our warez were it enforceable, we should respond by trying to overthrow said government.

It's the only logical course of action.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: qwertyuiopas on November 05, 2009, 05:44:53 pm
If they even dare try, I will create my own internet network, a distributed ISP, where each local node is aware of others, and IP addresses are based on server IDs, at differing levels. Connecting to your neighbor only routes it through the street's server, etc.

Then, if they even TRIED to take it down, it would come to bloodshed, because if there is one thing that people wouldn't do, it would be to give up a worldwide LAN and all remaining freedom. Only a nuclear threat would precent it, but can the government risk dying in their bunkers, the last thousand humans in existance, all because they needed total contol of the internet?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: LegoLord on November 05, 2009, 05:57:32 pm
What sounds frightening to me is that anyone would try this treaty as it currently appears.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: qwertyuiopas on November 05, 2009, 06:15:17 pm
The thing is, that can't!

Now that the public has seen an especially disturbing specimin, they will have developed a natural immune response to all similar legal viruses!

But seriously, the leak of that, even if fake, will have quadrupled(at least) the number of people who will scrutinize anything even remotely similar, with the terror of absolute governmental control of the entire internet as a looming shadow of the future.

Likely, half the army would quit(Though this is just speculation, living in a diffrent country and all), if not more, and anyone with an atom of ethics will refuse to implement it, for fear of the force that will be required to enforce it fully(Borders on global thermonuclear war).

The USB storage and custom OS industry will skyrocket, as well as the existance of self-organizing WIFI network software that would allow all computers with the capability to join together to share information.

The information spread speed would diminish rapidly, but if such networks grew around intercontenental trunk lines of unimpeded data transmission, as well as any unmonitored or unblockable internet link, everything will proceed as usual, only the governments will have lost all hope of control, short of militart force, and even that would result in riots and military deserters.


There, I have predicted the results of 2012, the fall of the internet as we know it, and rise of the NewNet, a place where true anonymity is possible, and nobody can even own a fraction of what an ISP does today.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Mr Tk on November 05, 2009, 07:13:56 pm
http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Proposed_US_ACTA_multi-lateral_intellectual_property_trade_agreement_%282007%29 (http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Proposed_US_ACTA_multi-lateral_intellectual_property_trade_agreement_%282007%29)

http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/ACTA_negotiations_brief_on_Border_Measures_and_Civil_Enforcement_2008 (http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/ACTA_negotiations_brief_on_Border_Measures_and_Civil_Enforcement_2008)
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: LegoLord on November 05, 2009, 07:18:25 pm
Now that I think about it, why do this in secret?  Though I may be mistaken, I don't think there's any reason to have treaty negotiations in secret except to hide something bad in the treaty you don't want people to know about, by reason of it making most people angry.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: qwertyuiopas on November 05, 2009, 07:29:05 pm
Semi-free(As in not restricted by the government) access is one of the only things preventing a true totalitarian society from starting. One wouldn't last, but as long as the internet is allowed to remain unrestricted, too much retalitory rage would exist.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jude on November 05, 2009, 07:40:43 pm

Possibly I'm over-reacting a bit

Well, you're over-reacting to people not agreeing with you, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: LegoLord on November 05, 2009, 07:54:18 pm

Possibly I'm over-reacting a bit

Well, you're over-reacting to people not agreeing with you, that's for sure.
To be fair, some of you guys could have been a bit less blunt.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jude on November 05, 2009, 07:57:00 pm
Well, sure, but it IS the internet. if you post conspiracy theories, you should be ready to hear them called tinfoil hattery and worse. And have a thick skin, which you should have on the internet no matter what.

Also, I didn't see any snarkiness other than what he started and there weren't even any personal attacks on him

In any case, I'm not worried about this being real but I guess time will tell
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Vlynndar on November 05, 2009, 08:03:57 pm
I'll be following this with interest.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nilocy on November 05, 2009, 08:04:19 pm
In any case, I'm not worried about this being real but I guess time will tell

I used to feel this way before I enfrancised, now I'm looking it in a way that'll effect me when I'm older. We seriously need to put up a fight now for this sort of thing so we can live a better future. Unfortunately theres alot of garbage on the internet and some of the more serious stuff gets drowned. But this is acctuall happen, right now. Behind our backs. We have a right to know, governments work for us, not the other way around. On that note, i emailed my local MP (which is Alistar Darling LAWL) and contacted the local oppostition party. Never underestimate the power of a single voice.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: cowofdoom78963 on November 05, 2009, 10:29:45 pm
Quote
tinfoil hattery
hur hur
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jude on November 05, 2009, 10:42:24 pm
Also, the fact that it would be physically impossible to carry out or enforce such a law should be a tip-off
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: sneakey pete on November 05, 2009, 10:48:21 pm
The reson that people are skeptical mate (i'm sure the OP will be back :P) is simply because you've taken someones opinion on what the bill will do and posted that up as fact. That's just not how it works.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: codezero on November 05, 2009, 11:04:46 pm
I think it's directly proportional to the corruption in the UN, at least in its drafters. Some seem to think they're a cut above the rest.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jude on November 05, 2009, 11:21:02 pm
The reson that people are skeptical mate (i'm sure the OP will be back :P) is simply because you've taken someones opinion on what the bill will do and posted that up as fact. That's just not how it works.
Well, and the fact that a) it's an extremely improbable thing and b) the only sources are people's blogs
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dakoth on November 05, 2009, 11:27:38 pm
Looks like a main course of HOPE with a side of fucking CHANGE. Don't forget to spread that wealth around! THANKS FOR VOTING, BY THE WAY.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: deadlycairn on November 05, 2009, 11:36:33 pm
I have no faith in the UN. Our ex-prime minister got elected there, and is now one of the most influential women in the world...

There's a reason she's our EX-prime minister...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jackrabbit on November 06, 2009, 01:21:57 am
Okay, I haven't read the entire thread, so this may be proven fake already, but I need to know.

If someone was accused of breaking copyright then the entire family loses internet access?

That'd put my father out of a job in an instant. Is this what they are proposing?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neruz on November 06, 2009, 01:48:01 am
I sincerely doubt this will pass, if only because it would be completely impossible to enforce and would shut down numerous gargantuan websites like Youtube, or Facebook.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: DennyTom on November 06, 2009, 04:28:44 am
I sincerely doubt this will pass, if only because it would be completely impossible to enforce and would shut down numerous gargantuan websites like Youtube, or Facebook.

Also if "acussation -> no trial -> mandatory removal" system gets real, guess what webpages will be the first to be acussed? Pages of goverment, DRM sympathizants, etc (however also bittorent sharing sites, warez forums, etc)
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: IndonesiaWarMinister on November 06, 2009, 04:30:15 am
And yeah.
If this passes...

Open and Free Software for everyone!

Public, World-wide LAN.

Each neighbourhood got their own router!
When the polices came, use the military-grade magnets!



...

And I'm sure if this passed, Indonesia will implement it too. F#%!# Americo-centrists...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neruz on November 06, 2009, 05:34:25 am
I sincerely doubt this will pass, if only because it would be completely impossible to enforce and would shut down numerous gargantuan websites like Youtube, or Facebook.

Also if "acussation -> no trial -> mandatory removal" system gets real, guess what webpages will be the first to be acussed? Pages of goverment, DRM sympathizants, etc (however also bittorent sharing sites, warez forums, etc)

I sincerely doubt anyone will actually ratify something that is so ovbiously abusable.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Muz on November 06, 2009, 06:05:35 am
All I see from this is ridiculous fees for monitoring, etc. And believe it or not, a little copyright infringement is free advertising. If someone posts a video clip, it's advertising. If someone posts 10 minutes of a movie, it's advertising. If someone posts a clip of some kid beating Guitar Hero 8 on Heroic, advertising.

Nobody's going to make much money from the whole plan. They can implement it pretty easily and cheaply with the technology they have, though, it's not really a problem.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Soulwynd on November 06, 2009, 08:17:23 am
You know. I think that we, as free thinking people, should start to either shoot or bomb any places in which such retardation happens.

Secondly, I think we should start encrypting everything. One of the most absurd things on the document was the border search of digital media... If you try to travel to another country with your laptop, they would have given the right to actually take your laptop, search for anything they can deem illegal and if they do, they can take your fucking laptop from you. Just like that. Or your ipod, or your cellphone, or pretty much anything that can store data.

Anyway, I vote for abolishing copyright.
http://www.culturelink.org/news/members/2005/members2005-011.html
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neonivek on November 06, 2009, 08:27:25 am
I support Copyright

I just don't support the stupid and abusive aspects of it.

No one should be able to make a buisness out of copyrighting a bunch of things with hopes that someone will stumble into it.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: kurokikaze on November 06, 2009, 09:10:09 am
Quote
ACTA would establish a new international legal framework that countries can join on a voluntary basis

and

Quote
That the whole world must adopt US-style “notice-and-takedown” rules that require ISPs to remove any material that is accused

don't mix. See the definition of "voluntary basis".
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neonivek on November 06, 2009, 09:25:13 am
No they mix perfectly :D

Basically if you agree to it then your job is to force everyone else to agree with it.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Muz on November 06, 2009, 11:23:15 am
Oh, btw, for those who say that it's impossible to censor the Internet... it's certainly not. I know a lot of people who use the Internet for these kinds of things. Detecting patterns is complicated, but signal processing, neural networks, and all kinds of modern technology makes this stuff possible. And fun. :P

Certainly possible though, especially as the CIA has been dealing with information tracking for decades. They don't have a bunch of people wiretapping every single LAN cable. They have algorithms to do stuff like this, you know. And they're already doing most of it for market research now. Google's also an obvious example of how easy it is to detect certain bits out of trillions.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Alexhans on November 06, 2009, 12:28:36 pm
doesn't china and other countries censor parts of it?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 06, 2009, 12:29:19 pm
They do, but the effectiveness of their censorship is questionable.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Alexhans on November 06, 2009, 12:30:09 pm
everything is questionable... :P
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dakoth on November 06, 2009, 03:18:22 pm
I'm so going to laugh when Kim Jong-Il sues someone for copyright infringement.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Rezan on November 06, 2009, 04:14:32 pm
And I'm going to cry when he wins.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: LegoLord on November 06, 2009, 04:25:58 pm
I support Copyright

I just don't support the stupid and abusive aspects of it.

No one should be able to make a buisness out of copyrighting a bunch of things with hopes that someone will stumble into it.
Likewise.

If you put even a second of thought into it, you would realize total abolition of copyrights would totally screw over book, movie, and game plot writers, game designers, etc.  Basically any business centering around creative work would collapse.  Copyright is important - necessary, I would even go so far as to say - but some people are trying to take it too far.

If copyright never existed, my mom would have some job she didn't enjoy due to the one she has now not paying, I would never have been able to afford a trip to Europe, and my brother wouldn't have been able to go to a nice private high school - or even college for that matter.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: cowofdoom78963 on November 06, 2009, 05:33:59 pm
Quote
Basically any business centering around creative work would collapse.
OH HO HO, Some of us would say it already has! :D
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on November 06, 2009, 05:38:54 pm
Quote
Basically any business centering around creative work would collapse.
OH HO HO, Some of us would say it already has! :D

Yeah, sure, whatever.  Hollywood ain't no ghost town, there's more channels on TV than ever before, people are still writing novels, and EA and Activision/Blizzard are still posting record profits.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: cowofdoom78963 on November 06, 2009, 05:41:00 pm
Quote
Basically any business centering around creative work would collapse.
OH HO HO, Some of us would say it already has! :D

Yeah, sure, whatever.  Hollywood ain't no ghost town, there's more channels on TV than ever before, people are still writing novels, and EA and Activision/Blizzard are still posting record profits.
I would hardly call any of that "creative work"
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on November 06, 2009, 05:43:40 pm
Quote
Basically any business centering around creative work would collapse.
OH HO HO, Some of us would say it already has! :D

Yeah, sure, whatever.  Hollywood ain't no ghost town, there's more channels on TV than ever before, people are still writing novels, and EA and Activision/Blizzard are still posting record profits.
I would hardly call any of that "creative work"
Oh praytell my dear Dorian, what masterpiece of imagination would meet your absolute discernment?

Besides, we're talking about business here, not taste.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: LegoLord on November 06, 2009, 05:44:20 pm
Quote
Basically any business centering around creative work would collapse.
OH HO HO, Some of us would say it already has! :D

Yeah, sure, whatever.  Hollywood ain't no ghost town, there's more channels on TV than ever before, people are still writing novels, and EA and Activision/Blizzard are still posting record profits.
I would hardly call any of that "creative work"
I really don't appreciate having the efforts of family and friends called unimaginative.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neonivek on November 06, 2009, 06:41:09 pm
This conversation is starting to become too sophisticated for me. We have Dorian Grey References and everything (at least I assume it is).
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: qwertyuiopas on November 09, 2009, 03:30:44 pm
Terrible news: I saw a newspaper from last friday.

THIS IS ALL TRUE!

Not only that, but details: If they have sufficient suspicion, they will ban the whole household for AN ENTIRE YEAR.


All that CONFIRMED by a local newspaper (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/).
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Maggarg - Eater of chicke on November 09, 2009, 04:49:26 pm
Terrible news: I saw a newspaper from last friday.

THIS IS ALL TRUE!

Not only that, but details: If they have sufficient suspicion, they will ban the whole household for AN ENTIRE YEAR.


All that CONFIRMED by a local newspaper (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/).
The end is nigh.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dakoth on November 09, 2009, 05:01:47 pm
Wait, "sufficient suspicion?" According to WHO? "He looks like the kind of person who burns CDs, take away his family's Internet access."

Who's electing the people that do these kinds of things? Since Obama's administration was so careful to keep this secret, I'm going to guess that they have at least a little bit of responsibility. I wonder what else he's going to try to do behind our backs.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Maggarg - Eater of chicke on November 09, 2009, 05:22:33 pm


Who's electing the people that do these kinds of things?
People are. You voted for them.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dakoth on November 09, 2009, 05:36:21 pm
Not me, I just turned 18.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: cowofdoom78963 on November 09, 2009, 05:56:52 pm
Ah ha ha, next time check the link before you jump to conclusions people!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jude on November 09, 2009, 05:59:36 pm
Terrible news: I saw a newspaper from last friday.

THIS IS ALL TRUE!

Not only that, but details: If they have sufficient suspicion, they will ban the whole household for AN ENTIRE YEAR.


All that CONFIRMED by a local newspaper (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/).

Way to link us to the main page of a newspaper instead of the alleged story

I still call BS on the whole thing
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: PTTG?? on November 09, 2009, 06:22:38 pm
I'm hoping it happens. Then the revolution will begin.

Even better:

"Hey ABC. I'm notifying you that your website infringes on my copyrights. You are required to take it down. Or you can pay me $10,000,000 not to notify you. Your choice."

Of course, I'll need a place to brag about my ridiculous actions, and I think I know how. It's called IPR - Internet Packet Radio. Basically, imagine a HAM radio array set up to send digital rather than analog transmissions, and hooking it up to a normal file transfer system.
Then you just need a constantly-updating internet index and a few more knicknacks, and you have a single radio node that can scan the airwaves and join a wireless network that is totally free of regulation- and impossible to regulate. Sure bandwidth would be somewhat smaller, but for text it just won't matter.

You won't have DNS or any other "centralized" elements, but who cares?

And let us remember- terrible as it might seem to think that we might loose our access to lolcats, rickrollings, and other stale memes, there are people out there who don't have problems with big corporations stifling their "digital culture". They have problems with, for instance, 50 year old landmines and shrapnel from misfired rockets, roving bands of militias, alternating seasons of drought and flood, and/or wildlife of the sort that we pretend to fight.
Complaint about loosing the privilege of internet access, taken in that light, seems a pathetic thing to take much offense at.

And so, for all my jingo and frevor, all my plans of IPR schemes and such, I try to keep my perspective. We in the western civilized world (and Japan) have it pretty good. It is our responsibility to keep those freedoms, but the internet is just a privilege. And if it's taken away, well, we'll still find our way around.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: qwertyuiopas on November 09, 2009, 06:24:56 pm
School computer, no time to search for the article.

After some searching, here is the article (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/Internet+talks+create+copyright+police/2190409/story.html).

Quote
Canadian officials are taking part in negotiations for a top-secret copyright treaty that could see families barred from the Internet for a year if someone in the household is suspected of illegal downloads.

(Hint: don't search for "copyright", it appears in every article. "Internet" got it on the second page)
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: dragnar on November 09, 2009, 06:26:34 pm
You know, if this were passed, a single amateur hacker could take out a large portion of the internet with a simple program to spam ISPs with accusations.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jreengus on November 09, 2009, 06:35:04 pm
You know, if this were passed, a group of amateur hackers will take out all of the internet with a simple program to spam ISPs with accusations.
Fixed.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on November 09, 2009, 06:42:49 pm
Does the phrase "top-secret treaty" strike anyone else as asinine?  Just me?  What is this, 1913?  There's no such thing as a secret treaty, and sure as Hell not for some kind of draconian international super-law cooked up by an independent think tank that violates several articles of most industrial nations' statute governance.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: PTTG?? on November 09, 2009, 06:46:44 pm
Unfortunately, this takedown on notification needs a human intervention at some point- it's easy for Viacom to demand Youtube take down millions of videos, because Viacom can sue Google if it doesn't.

In order to attack ABC successfully, you need to request less in damages than it would cost for them to win a lawsuit you started. Luckilly it probably costs ABC 10,000,000 dollars just to get your trivial lawsuit thrown out of court. If you offer them a steal at $5,000,999.99, then you'll probably get it.

They also need to believe that you'll actually go through with the lawsuit; You need to at least have enough money to conceivably hire a lawyer. Still, probably not a problem.

ACTA is a latin word, by the way. It's the root of the english word Action. I'm looking for the best way to put "Action against Tyranny" into latin. Hmm... Who else would join "Acta Non Tyrannus"?

Oh, and "secret" is probably too strong of a word. It's not like record companies are paradigms of security. It's more like it's a boring news story to anyone who doesn't spend 18 hours a day on the internet.

The more I think about it, the more I look forward for this, if only because this generation needs some strife.

ACTA NON TYRANNUS!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neruz on November 09, 2009, 07:28:03 pm
PTTG??, the whole point about this is that no lawsuit is involved. The accusation is made, the site is shut down.

That is the process.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: PTTG?? on November 09, 2009, 07:46:27 pm
PTTG??, the whole point about this is that no lawsuit is involved. The accusation is made, the site is shut down.

That is the process.

What, really? That's absurd... I mean, one can ask an isp to take down a target site, and they can (as in are able to, even if they aren't permitted to) refuse to take it down. Then one can sue the target, unless they settle out of court. So, while a lawsuit isn't required... well, I see. You just have to prove that you asked them to take something down, not that there was any reason for you to take something down, then.

Horrifying. We must find out exactly which groups are sponsoring this.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on November 09, 2009, 07:46:58 pm
But, who is the accusation made to?  The site is shut down by whom?  Whose responsibility will it be to hear these complaints and enforce them?  The shadowy, hollow-volcano dwelling masters of Echelon IV?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: LegoLord on November 09, 2009, 07:55:51 pm
Does the phrase "top-secret treaty" strike anyone else as asinine?  Just me?  What is this, 1913?  There's no such thing as a secret treaty, and sure as Hell not for some kind of draconian international super-law cooked up by an independent think tank that violates several articles of most industrial nations' statute governance.
I have to agree with you there.  That was one of the things I was trying to imply earlier when I asked why a nation would hold treaty negotiations in secret.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: cowofdoom78963 on November 09, 2009, 07:58:11 pm
There's no such thing as a secret treaty
You would know! :D
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jackrabbit on November 09, 2009, 08:01:51 pm
There's no such thing as a secret treaty
You would know! :D
Logically there should be no such thing as a secret treaty. It goes against the idea.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: The Doctor on November 09, 2009, 08:05:22 pm
Nope, five.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jackrabbit on November 09, 2009, 08:06:39 pm
My goodness.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neonivek on November 09, 2009, 08:06:44 pm
Secret Treaty would mean that they written this up.

Get all the governments they can to enact it at once so that the populous have little time or ability to act.

The US Government already mastered media control to a degree where I would be outraged.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: qwertyuiopas on November 09, 2009, 08:19:13 pm
They probably acknowledged that true secrecy was impossible, but instead chose to have it appear as merely a conspiracy theory with [citation needed] all over it, until it was too late...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on November 09, 2009, 08:25:06 pm
My God, the guvmint has mastered the use of Wikipedia?  Who will stop them now?

Really, if you've seen the hilariously crappy attempts by Senators and the CIA to try to forcibly lock information into wikis, you'd realize just how unlikely any treaty-making body would even attempt such a convoluted plan as faking its own existence, let alone pull it off.  News of the treaty's writing (if it's real) got out, didn't it?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: qwertyuiopas on November 09, 2009, 08:54:33 pm
Yes, but it was assumed, by almost everybody here, to be at least somewhat unlikely. It took a printed newspaper to convince me it was real, and not just a remote possibility. With all the lies, conspiracy theories, and paranoia in the internet, not to mention other random clutter, who could take that seriously at first glance? Maybe you can, but some doubt will remain.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: cowofdoom78963 on November 09, 2009, 08:58:29 pm
Oh lawd its in tha newspapah? It must be the truth!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Petra on November 09, 2009, 09:07:33 pm

A little bit of Armok will ensure the countries that do pass it are going to suffer much chaos and destruction.
That, and black magic doesn't hurt.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: PTTG?? on November 09, 2009, 09:28:38 pm
From what I understand, the treaty has two main functions:

1: To establish the laws universally through all the treaty nations.
2: To ensure that these governments will work together in these lawsuits and criminal investigations.

Thus, any violations would basically be treated like any other law violation, with the added ability of these agencies to reach across national borders. However, I can't say that I know any of that for sure.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jude on November 09, 2009, 10:32:16 pm
So has it or has it not yet appeared in any reputable media outlet
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on November 09, 2009, 10:52:14 pm
1: To establish the laws universally through all the treaty nations.
2: To ensure that these governments will work together in these lawsuits and criminal investigations.

Thus, any violations would basically be treated like any other law violation, with the added ability of these agencies to reach across national borders.

Really, the more I hear this described, the harder it is to fathom any nation ever adopting such a "treaty".  Am I the only one having this problem?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neruz on November 09, 2009, 10:52:19 pm
From what I understand, the treaty has two main functions:

1: To establish the laws universally through all the treaty nations.
2: To ensure that these governments will work together in these lawsuits and criminal investigations.

Thus, any violations would basically be treated like any other law violation, with the added ability of these agencies to reach across national borders. However, I can't say that I know any of that for sure.

Read it carefully; ISP's have to cut off internet to anyone who is accused of violating copyright immediately. If this treaty passes, i can accuse The NASA site of violating copyright, and NASA's ISP is duty bound by law to shut the site down right then and there.

Note also that the treaty claims to be voulentary, but then states that the entire world must adopt US style "notice-and-takedown" rules.

DRM can never be broken; ever. If i buy a copy of [GAME] and i elect to make a copy of [GAME] for a backup, i've just violated this treaty.

Services like Youtube, Flickr and Myspace will all have to be shut-down, as the treaty demands that ISP's proactively police copyright violations on sites, and proactively policing copyright violations on a site like Youtube is, quite simply, impossible.



Basically; this treaty is absurd, i find it extremely difficult to feel that it's actually real and not some giant joke. At the very least i would really like to know who is supporting it, and what their angle is; it can't be to get this treaty passed, because it won't.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: cowofdoom78963 on November 09, 2009, 10:54:23 pm
Nice try but the law is always above the law!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Muz on November 09, 2009, 11:07:30 pm
Well, like all laws, it's most likely there just so someone can use it when they need to. It's not going to be 100% enforced. You have people running red traffic lights and driving without wearing a seatbelt not getting caught. Similarly, there's going to be thousands of copyright violations out there not being prosecuted. You can't prosecute Myspace or YouTube either, but this law gives the right for a person posting a copyright violation to be banned from those sites.

It's more to bringing down a large corporation that's breaking copyright laws, rather than taking down individuals. There's just no gain in taking down multiple individuals. It's not really about whether or not it's enforcable, it's more that you give them a tool to enforce it if they need to.

Big companies do break a lot of laws. That wireless LAN you have on your laptop.. that's unauthorized use of a patent. The company you bought your laptop from has probably been sued, but there's thousands of other unauthorized patents that have not been sued because it's just not worth the money.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: cowofdoom78963 on November 09, 2009, 11:12:38 pm
Quote
There's just no gain in taking down multiple individuals.
Except for the money to be made leeching off them if you can get enough off of lawsuit.

Its like people who give you free money for no reason!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: dragnar on November 09, 2009, 11:42:12 pm
This treaty would end up just like all other anti-piracy attempts have- benefiting no one except for the pirates, who continue on as if nothing had changed. All a new method of stopping pirates does is reduce piracy for a few weeks, then hackers break through it and give pirates the same programs they were getting.

Ex: I bought Spore. I can install it only three times before I have to but it again. A pirate can install spore as many times as he/she wants, faster and easier than I can.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Muz on November 10, 2009, 12:05:29 am
Quote
There's just no gain in taking down multiple individuals.
Except for the money to be made leeching off them if you can get enough off of lawsuit.

Its like people who give you free money for no reason!

You do know that lawyers are very expensive? :P You can only get like $1-10K from an individual pirating your stuff at best, and have to pay a lawyer $20K for it. Not to mention that you're wasting valuable time, which costs way more than suing individuals.

Your best case is to try to get an individual for sharing files with others, but even that won't net you more than a few thousand. You can't sue a guy with a $40K annual salary for very much, and the higher you aim, the more likely you are to lose the case, and still have to pay your lawyer.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Earthquake Damage on November 10, 2009, 01:33:48 am
You do know that lawyers are very expensive? ...

But you don't have to pay for a full lawsuit.  Most individuals can't afford to defend themselves.  They'll settle out of court since it's probably cheaper.  If the defendant loses, they pay legal fees plus damages.  If they win, they pay legal fees.  If they settle, they pay damages, but probably at a discount since the offendant (so to speak :P ) won't have to go through a costly (in time and money) court battle to get their money, so they'll demand less. 
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Tack on November 10, 2009, 01:54:16 am
This treaty would end up just like all other anti-piracy attempts have- benefiting no one except for the pirates, who continue on as if nothing had changed. All a new method of stopping pirates does is reduce piracy for a few weeks, then hackers break through it and give pirates the same programs they were getting.

Ex: I bought Spore. I can install it only three times before I have to but it again. A pirate can install spore as many times as he/she wants, faster and easier than I can.
Yeah, the accepted way to deal with is to buy it to show support, then download a DRM free version. It's only right.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: PTTG?? on November 10, 2009, 02:01:39 am
So, here's what we must pledge: if anyone is sued by a large corporation for piracy, do not settle out of court. Take them on and cost them as much as possible, even if you loose. Why? Because you can declare bankruptcy and only pay what you can, then start clean (ish. You might want to talk to someone who knows what he's talking about before trying this). The big corporations, however, must pay all of their considerable legal fees. And occasionally, a sympathetic judge or jury and a little bit of luck will get the case thrown out of court as trivial, or even better, you could counter-sue them.

A lot of people seem to think that it's impossible for the government to make such a catastrophic mistake. I am not so sure.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: sneakey pete on November 10, 2009, 02:56:00 am
Read it carefully; ISP's have to cut off internet to anyone who is accused of violating copyright immediately. If this treaty passes, i can accuse The NASA site of violating copyright, and NASA's ISP is duty bound by law to shut the site down right then and there.


Read what carefully? what proof at all is ther eof this yet? and after a week? i think that's all i need to say...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jude on November 10, 2009, 07:49:02 am
Who's gonna do the enforcing? The ISP's certainly aren't going to pay a shitload of money to enforce a law that will lose them customers. If it did pass, they would do it in name only, because anything more would be suicide.

Also, has anybody considered how this bill would fare in a body like the US congress?

This story is such an obvious hoax it's not even funny.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neruz on November 10, 2009, 07:54:55 am
Well the US has tried to impose US law on the rest of the world in the past.

It didn't work out so well for them then either.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: LegoLord on November 10, 2009, 09:20:28 am
I swear, if this is real, and it gets passed, there will probably be some sort of revoution.  Even if it's only protests.  If it's protests, you can bet I'd be a part of them.  Not sure about other sorts of revolutions, though . . .

And I'd happily post this on SA were I a member.  They have funny ways when it comes to people saying "if x then I'll y".
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: PTTG?? on November 10, 2009, 11:56:32 am
Who's gonna do the enforcing? The ISP's certainly aren't going to pay a shitload of money to enforce a law that will lose them customers. If it did pass, they would do it in name only, because anything more would be suicide.
Also, has anybody considered how this bill would fare in a body like the US congress?
This story is such an obvious hoax it's not even funny.

What, American congress? Who are they going to vote to support? Champions of industry or a bunch of criminals and cyberterrorists? Frankly there's not enough people who know what would happen if/when this treaty gets passed to be a major constituency, even in the member countries that are democratic. Congratulations, my friends. We are being legislated into a new Illuminati. Just without any political power.

I'm almost certain about how this would be inforced; there would be no new international agency created that treaty violations would be reported to. Rather, the treaty would ensure that the laws are shared amoungst the countries and that criminal investigations would be allowed to cross national borders.

The investigating bodies WOULD NOT be some external force, but rather the countries' own police forces. The only difference would be that it would be possible for an American investigation to reach into Saudi servers.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on November 10, 2009, 12:06:37 pm
Two things about that which strike me as completely backwards.

A) American Congressmen, especially Republicans, vehemently oppose any concept of "international law" treaties.  We still haven't signed onto the fucking International Court system yet, what makes you think any of those knuckleheads would agree to a law where all you have to do is accuse someone of piracy (and again, accuse them TO WHOM?) and your ISP has to shut your Internet off for a year.

B) They also represent the actual law-enforcing people in a country, who will also vehemently oppose being told what to do by some foreign non-governmental think tank, because they already have their own shit to worry about.  Any such system of "Report and Automatic Lockdown No Trial Ever" will carry mountains of paperwork to keep them from getting their asses sued for false accusal.

C) There is no such thing as international laws being enforced at a local level.  If this "treaty" were to be incorporated into American law, it would be by writing our own new laws that would comply with the treaty in some way.  And ergo, would either have to allow for actual fucking due process or the Supreme Court would strike it down in a matter of weeks.

And D) Why does everyone assume that every government everywhere will always do whatever "Big Business, man" wants?  The EPA exists doesn't it?  And even so, ISPs aren't going to want a law like this, because they sure as Hell don't want to be shedding customers left and right.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: PTTG?? on November 10, 2009, 12:22:22 pm
Well... Perhaps. I know as well as anyone it's easy to get worked up over trivial things over the internet, and I realize it's entirely possible that this is a hoax, or at least the Orwellian internet security thing is a hoax. But I'm still concerned. That's the worst part of this, is simply the fact that we aren't given enough information to know how bad this is. Anyway, found some more info:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/10/these-42-people-are-shaping-us-internet-enforcement-policy.ars
http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/a2k/2009-February/003923.html

EDIT: This one's much better, it clears up a few things:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/11/the-acta-internet-provisions-dmca-goes-worldwide.ars
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jreengus on November 10, 2009, 12:24:05 pm
Hush Aqizzar, silence your voice of reason.

How can we B'aaaw over unfairness and make bold rebellious statements with you injecting your restless logic into our fantasy?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Dae on November 10, 2009, 12:58:44 pm
Don't know if the USA would set it up as an international law, but some countries already try something close to this.

French government enforced a law that looks a lot like this one. It's called HADOPI, I don't know how much it's been heard about in the rest of the world.
The goal was to set up an administrative authority that would reign over the ISP, ask them for information about traffic and shut down your internet access without any judiciary procedure. Just administrative.
It also created a new crime : not protecting your private network. So, if someone breaks into your wifi network then downloads something and get caught, you're guilty. Not only is your connection shut down, but you can't take another one and still have to pay for the first.
In case this happens, you have to prove you're not guilty by having previously installed a spy program on your computer. Said spy will be sold and probably windows only.

The funniest here is that while this law was repetedly refused by our Constitutionnal Council (before said council finally accepted), Europe declared that an access to Internet is a fundamental right, and as so cannot be taken away.
Also, another law, or an amendment, I'm not sure, was voted that said no one can be refused his right to access his email account.
Now, they'll have to explain us how you can access your mails without internet connection.

Needless, we're not happy with our government. At all. So far, I haven't met anyone supporting this law.
Also, I heard the United Kingdom had been talking about a similar but less "violent" law.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: eerr on November 10, 2009, 01:56:31 pm
don't worry, we won't copy a copyright treaty that looks like some backwards country wrote up, catering to large foreign buisnesses.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: AfterShave on November 11, 2009, 01:50:22 pm
That sure is disturbing but i read some other leaked document a rather long time ago that was just as disturbing(don't remember which or where). That was about, among other things. Create kind of an European FBI that was to collaborate with the US, to monitor alot of stuff and to change the freedom of speech laws to not include terrorist propaganda.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jude on November 11, 2009, 05:53:00 pm
I'm gonna ask again, has any real/reputable media source reported this as fact yet (as opposed to mentioning the fact that a rumor exists?)
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Strife26 on November 11, 2009, 05:59:09 pm
I'm gonna ask again, has any real/reputable media source reported this as fact yet (as opposed to mentioning the fact that a rumor exists?)

Not that my MPR trawling has caught.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Zangi on November 11, 2009, 08:38:17 pm
Eh, may not act on it now... but one day... and we will be the ones to rue the day...

Like how Microsoft does the x-box 360 mass bans all at one time.  Take em all at one time.

EDIT: Actually, would be quite effective for a regime who doesn't want word getting around...  What more effective way to squelch and hoodwink the masses... when you do it all at once? 
Even generating fake notices to ensure whole areas get blacked out, legally.

China's Gov't is probably having a field day with this...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: quinnr on November 20, 2009, 09:25:00 pm
That's...errr...kinda scary. Hey Disney, I hate you, let me accuse you of copyright infringement you didn't do...  :P
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Zironic on November 21, 2009, 01:35:39 pm
I'm gonna ask again, has any real/reputable media source reported this as fact yet (as opposed to mentioning the fact that a rumor exists?)

Not that my MPR trawling has caught.

I sent an email via Whitehouse.gov.

I probably won't get a response and am probably now a terrorist suspect, considering how any disagreement with the U.S. Government now days instantly makes you unpatriotic. Lovely. I feel like we're in the McCarthy Age again. Don't question the U.S. Government. Let them invade your privacy for your own good.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: JoshuaFH on November 21, 2009, 01:46:30 pm
I'm gonna ask again, has any real/reputable media source reported this as fact yet (as opposed to mentioning the fact that a rumor exists?)

Not that my MPR trawling has caught.

I sent an email via Whitehouse.gov.

I probably won't get a response and am probably now a terrorist suspect, considering how any disagreement with the U.S. Government now days instantly makes you unpatriotic. Lovely. I feel like we're in the McCarthy Age again. Don't question the U.S. Government. Let them invade your privacy for your own good.

I once emailed my Senator, detailing something I completely forget. He responded very eloquently, to my surprise, and I left it at that.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jude on November 21, 2009, 01:51:25 pm
I'm gonna ask again, has any real/reputable media source reported this as fact yet (as opposed to mentioning the fact that a rumor exists?)

Not that my MPR trawling has caught.

I sent an email via Whitehouse.gov.

I probably won't get a response and am probably now a terrorist suspect, considering how any disagreement with the U.S. Government now days instantly makes you unpatriotic. Lovely. I feel like we're in the McCarthy Age again. Don't question the U.S. Government. Let them invade your privacy for your own good.

What are you talking about? Are you still living in 2002?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Neruz on November 21, 2009, 07:03:18 pm
I'm gonna ask again, has any real/reputable media source reported this as fact yet (as opposed to mentioning the fact that a rumor exists?)

Not that my MPR trawling has caught.

I sent an email via Whitehouse.gov.

I probably won't get a response and am probably now a terrorist suspect, considering how any disagreement with the U.S. Government now days instantly makes you unpatriotic. Lovely. I feel like we're in the McCarthy Age again. Don't question the U.S. Government. Let them invade your privacy for your own good.

What are you talking about? Are you still living in 2002?

Yeah; you're in the Obamanation now remember?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jude on November 21, 2009, 10:43:43 pm
I can't really tell if that's sarcasm but there's a pretty big difference between US government abuses of civil rights in 2002 and now
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: tehstefan on November 22, 2009, 06:14:07 pm
Just a side note here, Jude, that Signature made me laugh, a lot. Heh.

In any case, I'm not so sure this bill would even pass, let alone be enforced. Because there is a world of difference between being able to pass a law, and being able to enforce it properly, or even at all. Sure, they might try, but people have a great way of getting around things, so I doubt they could effectively enforce it enough to actually do anything.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on November 28, 2009, 11:41:04 am
Okay, so, after taking a while to chill out, I came back and re-read this and realized I was acting like an over-dramatic douche. Possibly I was on my man-period that day or something, who knows. I was obviously too thin-skinned about something I should have expected to come under heavy scrutiny; I guess mainly I expected to get the same reaction I would have if I'd showed this to my offline buddies and said, 'woah, what the fuck, check this out', having momentarily forgotten the general asshattery one should learn to expect from the internetz.

I'd like to offer an apology to Aqizzar/etc. (but Aqizzar particularly). You were offering reasonable (if blunt) discussion and I got, for some reason that is not clear to me now, unnecessarily butthurt.

I still haven't heard back from Snopes, and haven't really bothered to investigate further. If they actually mail me back at any point, I'll post the reply.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on November 28, 2009, 12:27:54 pm
I'd like to offer an apology to Aqizzar/etc. (but Aqizzar particularly). You were offering reasonable (if blunt) discussion and I got, for some reason that is not clear to me now, unnecessarily butthurt.

Apology completely unnecessary.  Just glad to see people acting reasonably, not even about the copyright thing, but just civil conversation.  If I got a little too blunt about the whole thing, I apologize myself.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: de5me7 on November 28, 2009, 12:55:49 pm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/oct/28/mandelson-date-blocking-filesharers-connections (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/oct/28/mandelson-date-blocking-filesharers-connections)

this is pretty much what we are going to get in the UK

we get a warning at least

personally i think this will dig the government into a hole

UK government of late has an embarsing habit of breaking its own laws, i expect that'l screw em again with this legislation

The main issue (as already metioned in this thread) is that it circumvents the courts and criminal justice. I think this will cause problems when people with ecomonic or political wieght loose their connection.

They are also dunmping most of the responsiblity for policing the public on ISPs. Im not sure ISPs will take an order to sabotage their own business in the name of justice very seriously. Another issue is the poor beurocratic structure in this country, we cant even hold the NHS databse together, tracking and charging copyright infiringement will require a lot of beucracy and logistics so i expect it will be very inefficienct and cause many political head aches.

The key hope is that this act crashes and burns for UK govenment popularity (alright our currnet government are already unpopular) but the next may suffer so much that no other nation would dare try and replicate this act.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Mr Tk on November 30, 2009, 09:20:41 pm
EU ACTA Analysis Leaks: Confirms Plans For Global DMCA, Encourage 3 Strikes Model (http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4575/125/)

Here is a good overview of the act.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on December 01, 2009, 12:00:03 pm
OP:

Simply put, this is why everyone needs to own and be proficient with firearms. Governments screw with their people because they're not afraid enough.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: PTTG?? on December 01, 2009, 12:31:47 pm
Governments screw with their people because they're not afraid enough.

So your solution to this is to be afraid of everyone?

Ok, while I feel that it IS important for each household to have some kind of self-defense weapon, all these gun nuts afraid that the government is going to come and steal their AK-47s- or worse, that they have to use their AK-47s to protect aborted babies or get the atheist muslims out of the white house- are worse than a few morons being elected.

Isn't that the whole point of a democracy? That we can threaten the status quo without bunches of ammuntion or, you know, killing people?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 01, 2009, 12:33:29 pm
Governments screw with their people because they're not afraid enough.

So your solution to this is to be afraid of everyone?

Ok, while I feel that it IS important for each household to have some kind of self-defense weapon, all these gun nuts afraid that the government is going to come and steal their AK-47s- or worse, that they have to use their AK-47s to protect aborted babies or get the atheist muslims out of the white house- are worse than a few morons being elected.

Isn't that the whole point of a democracy? That we can threaten the status quo without bunches of ammuntion or, you know, killing people?

Everyone seems to forget the main advantage automatic weapons have over the average home defense weapon.

They're awesome.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Maggarg - Eater of chicke on December 01, 2009, 12:39:17 pm
Just keep rocket launchers in your house.
Better yet, nuclear rocket launchers! That'll sure stop all your problems!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: LeoLeonardoIII on December 01, 2009, 02:38:23 pm
It's not about people being afraid of each other. It's about a government's capacity and tendency to oppress if it can. That is a self-defense mechanism of any organization. People need to be strong because otherwise their government will take advantage. It's a deterrant.

But it needs to be combined with dissent and demand for information. People with information are stronger. People who question their leaders and get answers are stronger for it.

Don't be passive. Don't be weak. That's all.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Bricks on December 02, 2009, 11:29:31 am
Governments screw with their people because they're not afraid enough.

So your solution to this is to be afraid of everyone?

Ok, while I feel that it IS important for each household to have some kind of self-defense weapon, all these gun nuts afraid that the government is going to come and steal their AK-47s- or worse, that they have to use their AK-47s to protect aborted babies or get the atheist muslims out of the white house- are worse than a few morons being elected.

Isn't that the whole point of a democracy? That we can threaten the status quo without bunches of ammuntion or, you know, killing people?

I know that even a sneeze that sounds like "Ayn Rand" will probably throw some people into pitbull-mode, but I'm a fan anyway, and she was a pretty avid supporter of the democratic system.  I think she would say (aka she either said this and I'm paraphrasing or this is how I extrapolated something I read) that as long as you have some sort of democratic system, you have absolutely no right to impose yourself on others for the sake of change, whether it be through violence or disruptive protests.  If the government really and truthfully becomes corrupted to the point where our votes mean nothing, then yes, pretty much anything goes.  The US is a long way from that point.  It's unfortunate how paternal the US government has become, but the "government" is still not a separate entity from its people.  Stockpiling ammunition and machine guns accomplishes nothing, since our current leadership directly reflects the majority's beliefs.  If you want the laws to change, you actually have to change people's minds, not start a revolution and hope that the people will blindly follow your charisma and unanimously adopt your ideas.  Democracy - slow, sometimes stupid and full of compromise - but it's not actively trying to kill you.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Maggarg - Eater of chicke on December 02, 2009, 11:31:24 am
Governments screw with their people because they're not afraid enough.

So your solution to this is to be afraid of everyone?

Ok, while I feel that it IS important for each household to have some kind of self-defense weapon, all these gun nuts afraid that the government is going to come and steal their AK-47s- or worse, that they have to use their AK-47s to protect aborted babies or get the atheist muslims out of the white house- are worse than a few morons being elected.

Isn't that the whole point of a democracy? That we can threaten the status quo without bunches of ammuntion or, you know, killing people?

I know that even a sneeze that sounds like "Ayn Rand" will probably throw some people into pitbull-mode, but I'm a fan anyway, and she was a pretty avid supporter of the democratic system. 
And such a wonderful and charming person to boot.

Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Karakzon on January 25, 2012, 04:37:44 pm
THREAD BUMP! because, be it 2 years ish since the last post its still relavent.

because its 2012. And ACTA seems just about to be put into practice.
and Anon is pissed.

Eather way, unless another campaign of the same that shot down sopa dosent happen soon, ACTA will screw us all over untill we go darknetting. :/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAkpsRLESWk&sns=fb <- loving explination.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 25, 2012, 04:50:00 pm
Worthy necro. ACTA is abhorrent, I swear if the EU passes it in the end, it's Canada, Australia or North Korea.

*Edit. Deus mea... Canada and Australia are considering passing it too. Looks like it's North Korea then.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nadaka on January 25, 2012, 04:55:18 pm
You really want to go to North Korea over a spectacular copyright treaty?

North Korea has far far worse problems than copyright my friend.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 25, 2012, 04:56:26 pm
You really want to go to North Korea over a spectacular copyright treaty?

North Korea has far far worse problems than copyright my friend.

Poe's law man.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nadaka on January 25, 2012, 04:58:03 pm
Did you know that spell check does not recognize the word "craptacular"?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 25, 2012, 04:59:13 pm
Did you know that spell check does not recognize the word "craptacular"?
...

Great derail.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on January 25, 2012, 04:59:33 pm
So, what happens tomorrow, when it goes into effect?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 25, 2012, 05:01:59 pm
I'm betting that Facebook and Youtube will go down, leading to angry mobs millions strong bashing down government doors everywhere.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 25, 2012, 05:02:27 pm
The world explodes into an orgy of violence and destruction. At least, I hope so, or the bunker and stockpile of supplies I don't have in the Appalachians will be a complete waste.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Karakzon on January 25, 2012, 05:03:06 pm
Alot of countrys have already signed up. The fact is the thing is "international" so theirs bugger all way for anyone apart from governments to try repeal it.

I didnt even know the thing existed untill a few days ago.

Watch the video i posted. Thats a generaly balanced veiw on the entire affair.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Jackrabbit on January 25, 2012, 05:28:52 pm
Holy shit. That's astonishing. I knew SOPA would be tried again but I didn't expect it to happen a week after it was shelved with something that was created before SOPA. This is huge.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nadaka on January 25, 2012, 05:31:07 pm
Holy shit. That's astonishing. I knew SOPA would be tried again but I didn't expect it to happen a week after it was shelved with something that was created before SOPA. This is huge.

SOPA has always been the enforcement trigger for ACTA.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 25, 2012, 05:39:30 pm
Well fuck... What cha doing over there US? Looks like you have a gun, is... is that thing loaded? Your are going to shoot yourself in the foot? And everybody else here too? Look I know times seem tough, what with the economic crisis and all, but there is no need to-
*Bam*
Why?!?!?

Ok but seriously now, if I make a new church and say that intellectual property theft is part of my religion, could I make a killing being the only person in the world who can afford to host an ISP?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nadaka on January 25, 2012, 05:43:19 pm
Well fuck... What cha doing over there US? Looks like you have a gun, is... is that thing loaded? Your are going to shoot yourself in the foot? And everybody else here too? Look I know times seem tough, what with the economic crisis and all, but there is no need to-
*Bam*
Why?!?!?

Ok but seriously now, if I make a new church and say that intellectual property theft is part of my religion, could I make a killing being the only person in the world who can afford to host an ISP?
The religion already exists, and is called Kopimi (pronounce Copy Me). It is even recognized by at least one country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary_Church_of_Kopimism
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 25, 2012, 05:45:55 pm
I just went all theist.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Totaku on January 25, 2012, 05:55:21 pm
I think based on what I read.... tomorrow is suppose to be when the Poland Parliament signs up to join ACTA.

Meaning Poland will be part of the ACTA treaty along with the others who signed. It's not the activation of ACTA yet.

That requires the European Parliament to Green light.

Also while I'm at it. I'm going to post this again since this will is on a more relevant thread on the subject matter.

There are some thing people have uncovered about ACTA that proves that on it's own. It's power is limited. However if bills like SOPA and PIPA are passed then ACTA becomes dangerous! So here let me post this here for you to read.

Quote
I know that we all talked about SOPA and PIPA and now ACTA. But recently a friend of mine pointed me out to something pretty important.

ACTA in it's final version. Is mearly a treaty designed to allow those that sign it to gain the power to monitor everyone's actions on the net. But only, if they can pass a bill that can allow internet censorship.

So on it's own ACTA can do nothing.

However, if a bill passes through the government and becomes law. ACTA can be enforced based upon the bill that becomes law.

So in otherwords. ACTA is only as powerful as the bill that pass through congress and becomes law.

And this also means that SOPA and PIPA were the US's attempt to put laws in place to enforce ACTA when(and if) the European Parliment activates it.

Here's a link that explains it all.
http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/or8ag/ive_read_the_final_version_of_acta_heres_what_you/

More or less, internet copyright censorship battles are far from over. Since our governments will try to put bills on the table to pass so they can apply ACTA to it.

So in other words even if ACTA is enforced, what needs to happen is that legilations that center around internet censorship (like SOPA and PIPA) shouldn't pass unless you want the internet to monitor your action based on the legislation.

Again I highly recommend you read the contents in the link
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: UltraValican on January 25, 2012, 06:06:00 pm
I hope my own country burns in flames for this...I'm seriously praying for that to happen.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 25, 2012, 06:10:13 pm
Yea, apparently we have signed up, not surprised. Australia is like Milhouse, it will do anything the US tells it to.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 25, 2012, 06:11:31 pm
Canada has been getting snarky. Would Australia be interested in the position of 'hat'?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: da_nang on January 25, 2012, 06:12:12 pm
Vote's today. Should the worst come to pass, everyone in the EU should start contacting their MEPs.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 25, 2012, 06:29:27 pm
So, what happens tomorrow, when it goes into effect?

Read the actual law? It's actually a lot scarier than people say. It's being signed tomorrow, it's going into effect the moment the EU can enforce it.

Low and behold, the age of free information is drawing to an end.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: UltraValican on January 25, 2012, 06:31:50 pm
So, what happens tomorrow, when it goes into effect?

Read the actual law? It's actually a lot scarier than people say. It's being signed tomorrow, it's going into effect the moment the EU can enforce it.

Low and behold, the age of free information is drawing to an end.
Good night, Sweet Prince.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 25, 2012, 06:34:43 pm
Don't we have script kiddies in guy fawks masks who normally protest this kind of stuff? Any word on their front?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 25, 2012, 06:35:32 pm
Don't we have script kiddies in guy fawks masks who normally protest this kind of stuff? Any word on their front?

A few government websites taken down, otherwise, no. This... Could be it.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Flying Dice on January 25, 2012, 06:37:44 pm
Well fuck... What cha doing over there US? Looks like you have a gun, is... is that thing loaded? Your are going to shoot yourself in the foot? And everybody else here too? Look I know times seem tough, what with the economic crisis and all, but there is no need to-
*Bam*
Why?!?!?

Ok but seriously now, if I make a new church and say that intellectual property theft is part of my religion, could I make a killing being the only person in the world who can afford to host an ISP?
The religion already exists, and is called Kopimi (pronounce Copy Me). It is even recognized by at least one country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary_Church_of_Kopimism

I do believe I've just found religion.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: darkrider2 on January 25, 2012, 07:18:55 pm
I'm joining that church.

ALSO WTF!?

The internet can't catch a break these days. ISP's shouldn't be liable for the actions of their users, EVER. Ever read the EULA on any of your games? One of those big paragraphs, and its always in there, usually at the top too, says that the company who produced that software is not liable for anything you do with it. But now ISP's have to be reliable for all their (sometimes millions of) users do?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Shook on January 25, 2012, 07:25:42 pm
Oh for f-

WHY. WHY MUST WE BE PLAGUED LIKE THIS? Seems more and more like the American gov't is trying to take over the world. Even people who are terrified of breaking the law (like yours truly) will suffer from this. Seeing that Europe is planning to sign up as well just made me lose a huge chunk of faith in the administration. That we have to deal with things like this in the modern, probably-not-dictatorial world is ridiculous, baffling and utterly dumbfounding. Why don't we just go back to the middle ages and have people burned on a pyre for being accused of witchcraft? It's not many steps away from this, and that's fucking terrifying. People get punished via accusations alone. I'm all for having violent felons in jail and such, but this is dangerously close to tyranny.

TL;DR: dammit 'murica you make me irate
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Zrk2 on January 25, 2012, 07:40:01 pm
Can someone give me the Cole's Notes edition of this law? All I've got so far is European SOPA.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: darkrider2 on January 25, 2012, 07:42:27 pm
This is completely impossible to enforce, in any way.

This is just a tool for people who don't like what you're saying to get you, its censorship exactly.

I mean technically under this raywilliamjohnson could be censored since his entire video series shows clips of other videos.

But that probably won't happen because this is impossible to enforce, here's how it'll get used.

It'll be used as an "I gotchya" technique. The person filing a complaint doesn't even have to be the victim of copyright infringment (which is almost impossible NOT to do on the internet when you consider the hundreds of copies of reuploaded cat videos). If you uploaded one of those cat videos and also have a blog protesting pollution. They can get you for uploading that cat video and shut you down.

Well that doesn't have anything to do with pollution, haha too bad! You are a criminal, now everything you say is a lie, no wait sorry, everything you say was someone elses idea first.

This is basically when a cop pulls you over for something but can't prove it but also doesn't like you, he can get you on something else.

Censorship, because freedom is scary.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on January 25, 2012, 08:55:02 pm
Before this goes into effect, I would like to formally accuse whitehouse.gov of copying a perfectly good law and then going all hipster on it by being "Yeah I was all into international internet oppression three years before those Republicans were."
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Trapezohedron on January 25, 2012, 09:09:06 pm
Not sure what to say... except:

Has this law been passed?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: JoshuaFH on January 25, 2012, 09:20:54 pm
How did this get in so fast and sneak under everyone's radars? I mean, the SOPA outrage was immense, it's hard to imagine something similar going unnoticed.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Trapezohedron on January 25, 2012, 09:22:47 pm
How did this get in so fast and sneak under everyone's radars? I mean, the SOPA outrage was immense, it's hard to imagine something similar going unnoticed.

Probably because everyone who participated in it wanted it to be a silent negotiation.

Including the US Government.

Well, whatever the reason, the idiots really planned ahead, didn't they?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: darkrider2 on January 25, 2012, 09:26:55 pm
The first posts in this thread were from 2009. So its been around a while, but if IIRC the bump was because this is finally getting somewhere near to actually getting put into action.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 25, 2012, 09:33:12 pm
This is completely impossible to enforce, in any way.

This is just a tool for people who don't like what you're saying to get you, its censorship exactly.

I mean technically under this raywilliamjohnson could be censored since his entire video series shows clips of other videos.

But that probably won't happen because this is impossible to enforce, here's how it'll get used.

It'll be used as an "I gotchya" technique. The person filing a complaint doesn't even have to be the victim of copyright infringment (which is almost impossible NOT to do on the internet when you consider the hundreds of copies of reuploaded cat videos). If you uploaded one of those cat videos and also have a blog protesting pollution. They can get you for uploading that cat video and shut you down.

Well that doesn't have anything to do with pollution, haha too bad! You are a criminal, now everything you say is a lie, no wait sorry, everything you say was someone elses idea first.

This is basically when a cop pulls you over for something but can't prove it but also doesn't like you, he can get you on something else.

Censorship, because freedom is scary.

That's the government's motivation.  Then there's the media industry lobbyist's motivation:  they want a legal ability to shut down any threats to its business model and force all content to be produced and distributed through its channels, where it can be profited from.  Two separate reasons, but one united and very powerful effort.

It is unenforceable on a universal scale.  It's not intended for that.  It's a strategic tool for those two establishments to consolidate and maintain their dominance.  The side effects will be a major hindrance to the social and technological progress and infrastructure that the internet has given us, and a lot of lives unjustifiably ruined.

I can't help but comment... I browsed through the first three pages of this thread, without noticing the dates on those posts.  I was really annoyed with everyone's behavior, until I realized it was so long ago.  I'm so glad people's attitudes are changing on issues like this.  I implore everyone to remember moments like this, and never again fall into the habit of hand-waving people as paranoid tin-foil hats just because something seems sensational.  Be a critical thinker.  Check sources.  Shelve information that doesn't seem reliable.  That's all fine.  Acting condescending towards someone for bringing the community's attention to something that they are genuinely concerned about is inexcusable.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Frumple on January 25, 2012, 09:35:50 pm
How did this get in so fast and sneak under everyone's radars? I mean, the SOPA outrage was immense, it's hard to imagine something similar going unnoticed.
Wait, fast? ACTA's apparently been in the works for a bit more than half a decade, now. Started up in '06 with discussion between the states and Japan, according to the wiki page. And yeah, rest of world, you can apparently lay blame for this shit right on the shoulders of the states (And Japan, I suppose.).

As for the sneaking bit, yeah, there's been absolutely zero public consultation about the thing. It was done entirely behind closed doors. If someone hadn't leaked the treaty documents over the negotiation period(s), we probably wouldn't have ever heard about it until someone shoved (or snuck) something like SOPA through and then said "Ohshittreaty, sry" when the people said no to that bullshit.

Because from what I understand, with the ACTA signed, if something like SOPA or PIPA is decided to be, I'unno, unconstitutional, or is given an overwhelming public decry/outright veto, the bastards that are trying to do this crap to the general populous could basically say, "Well, no. Treaty, you see." ACTA's basically a knife at our back waiting for us to slip up even the slightest amount, after which the knife goes in and internet freedom and privacy bleeds out.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: darkrider2 on January 25, 2012, 09:40:22 pm
Quote
Then there's the media industry lobbyist's motivation:  they want a legal ability to shut down any threats to its business model and force all content to be produced and distributed through its channels, where it can be profited from.

Exactly.

Is anyone else completely disgusted when government serves business and not, you know, the people?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: JoshuaFH on January 25, 2012, 09:43:04 pm
How did this get in so fast and sneak under everyone's radars? I mean, the SOPA outrage was immense, it's hard to imagine something similar going unnoticed.
Wait, fast? ACTA's apparently been in the works for a bit more than half a decade, now. Started up in '06 with discussion between the states and Japan, according to the wiki page. And yeah, rest of world, you can apparently lay blame for this shit right on the shoulders of the states (And Japan, I suppose.).

It's really been in the works for more than five years now? I mean, it doesn't seem that long ago that everyone was up in arms over SOPA.

Then wait! Immediately after that, we have PIPA! Everyone's up in arms again.

Now we have ACTA? I'm being deluged by four letter acronyms that hate the internet!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: King DZA on January 25, 2012, 09:45:14 pm
Hm, so this thing is actually real, then? Fuuck, the oppressive bastards just won't give me a break. Guess I'll have to try be even more speedy than before. Sucks, because I hate being rushed.
I'm hoping this law/treaty/whatever is shot down with little effort on my part, so that I can continue to take my sweet time. But if not, things are gonna get real eventful real fast.

You guys just promise me you'll try not to do anything stupid, okay?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 25, 2012, 09:49:00 pm
You guys just promise me you'll try not to do anything stupid, okay?

Gotta admit.  Berserk button is halfway pressed, but it has been for years.

Not much for anyone but me to worry about, though, because I'm the type of person who doesn't explode, I implode.  When I get angry enough, I just BSOD.  Stop paying attention to anything around me, and can't be convinced to do anything but stare off into space.  Coincidentally, I've been doing that a lot lately.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: King DZA on January 25, 2012, 10:03:13 pm
I'm not trying to sound condescending by asking that, just to clarify. I just know that there will be plenty of people acting stupid already, so anyone that doesn't go completely batshit during this whole thing will make my life just a little bit easier.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Luke_Prowler on January 25, 2012, 10:04:28 pm
Sorry, I was busy giving sacrifices to Khorne. Don't do what now?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 25, 2012, 10:46:09 pm
Has anyone told you your continued role playing of this Character you pretend to be even during serious subjects is a tad annoying?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Luke_Prowler on January 25, 2012, 10:48:47 pm
Sorry

I'm kinda surprised they're going through with it, concidering how much rage SOPA/PIPA got
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nadaka on January 25, 2012, 10:56:59 pm
Sorry

I'm kinda surprised they're going through with it, concidering how much rage SOPA/PIPA got

It was part of the plan all along. SOPA/PIPA are the triggers used to empower ACTA. Once ACTA in place, ANY law remotely similar to SOPA/PIPA will activate it. So once it is in place it will sit idle and silent until those who value freedom and knowledge make a mistake and let down their guard. But ACTA will lie in wait, lurking, waiting, scheming. It could be in a year, a decade or even a century but in the end we will lose unless ACTA can be broken and killed.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Criptfeind on January 25, 2012, 10:58:00 pm
Sorry Luke. I was talking to King DZA.

I'm kinda surprised they're going through with it, concidering how much rage SOPA/PIPA got

Yeah.  I guess we know that all the people who were like "Wow. Now that I actually read this I see it is a terrible idea. Thank you public!" Were lying.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Trapezohedron on January 25, 2012, 10:59:01 pm
Sorry

I'm kinda surprised they're going through with it, concidering how much rage SOPA/PIPA got

It was part of the plan all along. SOPA/PIPA are the triggers used to empower ACTA. Once ACTA in place, ANY law remotely similar to SOPA/PIPA will activate it. So once it is in place it will sit idle and silent until those who value freedom and knowledge make a mistake and let down their guard. But ACTA will lie in wait, lurking, waiting, scheming. It could be in a year, a decade or even a century but in the end we will lose unless ACTA can be broken and killed.

And I think ACTA will most likely get passed due to the lack of coverage (compared to SOPA/PIPA).

Are we doomed?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nadaka on January 25, 2012, 11:01:44 pm
Sorry

I'm kinda surprised they're going through with it, concidering how much rage SOPA/PIPA got

It was part of the plan all along. SOPA/PIPA are the triggers used to empower ACTA. Once ACTA in place, ANY law remotely similar to SOPA/PIPA will activate it. So once it is in place it will sit idle and silent until those who value freedom and knowledge make a mistake and let down their guard. But ACTA will lie in wait, lurking, waiting, scheming. It could be in a year, a decade or even a century but in the end we will lose unless ACTA can be broken and killed.

And I think ACTA will most likely get passed due to the lack of coverage (compared to SOPA/PIPA).

Are we doomed?

The lack of coverage is intentional. In the US  the existence of ACTA was classified top secret for the longest time.

Yes we are doomed, but you can always overthrow your government.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Luke_Prowler on January 25, 2012, 11:10:05 pm
Well ACTA is a treaty, right? Then SOPA/PIPA was mearly an attempt to enforce it, which failed and we can give resistance to any other attempt anywhere else
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 25, 2012, 11:13:17 pm
Well ACTA is a treaty, right? Then SOPA/PIPA was mearly an attempt to enforce it, which failed and we can give resistance to any other attempt anywhere else

Until something fundamental changes, this means making a massive push every few months for the foreseeable future to remind everyone in our government that we'll make hell if they actually do something like this.  We fail once, and it's time to make good on that threat.  If we fail to make good on the threat, then we've simply lost.

Personally, I don't think there's enough attention span in the public to fend this off forever.  The law will come down on the internet eventually, and our reaction at that point will be what determines the final outcome.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: alway on January 25, 2012, 11:14:24 pm
The lack of coverage is intentional. In the US  the existence of ACTA was classified top secret for the longest time.
Or for more clarification:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement
Quote
United States
Both the Bush administration and the Obama administration had rejected requests to make the text of ACTA public, with the White House saying that disclosure would cause "damage to the national security."[91] In 2009, Knowledge Ecology International filed a FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) request in the United States, but their entire request was denied. The Office of the United States Trade Representative's Freedom of Information office stated the request was withheld for being material "properly classified in the interest of national security."[92] US Senators Bernie Sanders (I-VT) and Sherrod Brown (D-OH) penned a letter on 23 November 2009, asking the United States Trade Representative to make the text of the ACTA public.

Apparently it's a state secret, so I guess if the terreris's got hold of it, they could turn it into a dirty bomb... or something. ಠ_ಠ
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: King DZA on January 25, 2012, 11:20:02 pm
Has anyone told you your continued role playing of this Character you pretend to be even during serious subjects is a tad annoying?

I save my roleplaying for the board dedicated to such a thing, thank you very much.

Or did you mean my seemingly exaggerated, egotistical, and deluded perception of how amazing I am? If so, I could certainly try toning it down a bit, but that would be a bit like lying.

This is definitely a serious subject, and I intend to fully treat it as such. So, it would be appreciated if you could keep your personal opinions about me out of it, especially considering just how little you know about me to begin with.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Luke_Prowler on January 25, 2012, 11:20:32 pm
Well ACTA is a treaty, right? Then SOPA/PIPA was mearly an attempt to enforce it, which failed and we can give resistance to any other attempt anywhere else

Until something fundamental changes, this means making a massive push every few months for the foreseeable future to remind everyone in our government that we'll make hell if they actually do something like this.  We fail once, and it's time to make good on that threat.  If we fail to make good on the threat, then we've simply lost.

Personally, I don't think there's enough attention span in the public to fend this off forever.  The law will come down on the internet eventually, and our reaction at that point will be what determines the final outcome.
Oh ye, of little faith. Politicians are people too (though you personally seem to think them of some kind of black monolithic entity), therefore they will take the path of least resistance. They not going to risk getting kicked out of their money train by being hated.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nadaka on January 25, 2012, 11:21:07 pm
Well ACTA is a treaty, right? Then SOPA/PIPA was mearly an attempt to enforce it, which failed and we can give resistance to any other attempt anywhere else

Partially, ACTA is also the lock that (in the US anyway) would prevent SOPA/PIPA from being ruled unconstitutional or revoked by congress. Once the law is passed, ACTA comes into effect, then the law that brings it into effect can not be removed. It is probably even protected from a constitutional amendments intended to remove it. That is how deeply it goes, that is how serious it is. It completely subverts the intent of democracy and good governance.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: darkrider2 on January 25, 2012, 11:37:58 pm
In general most laws are almost impossible to remove unless it comes before the supreme court and gets redefined, which don't happen often.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nadaka on January 25, 2012, 11:42:45 pm
In general most laws are almost impossible to remove unless it comes before the supreme court and gets redefined, which don't happen often.

Congress can submit a law that rewrites the previous law, the supreme court can strike down a law as unconstitutional. The constitution can be changed to invalidate a law.

With ACTA in place, SOPA/PIPA are immune to all of those because in the US treaties supersede the constitution.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 25, 2012, 11:44:47 pm
To put this in perspective, I've been paying attention to internet freedom issues for a long time now.  I've been watching it very closely since the height of the RIAA's frivolous lawsuit spree against thousands of random people for downloading music.  Since just before ACTA, I've been on various activist groups e-mail lists.  For at least four years now, I've been getting a few e-mails a week on the subject, and every few months they will come in flurries of several e-mails a day.  There's always new timetables on renewed legislative pushes to kill the internet spurred by lobbyists.  This has been going on non-stop for a long time now.  I'm fucking burned out on it.  I don't even read the e-mails anymore.  I just know that it's ongoing, and every once in a while I'll click a petition link. 

The issue got a huge public spotlight this year, but I can already tell that people are starting to look away.  Most people think that SOPA is a recent thing.  It reared its ugly head and it was slain by the scorn of the internet masses.  Hooray. 

What they don't understand is that our government is swarming with people for whom it is literally their full-time very-well-paying job to push this stuff.  Most people go to work every day to serve food or clean buildings or design products or operate machinery.  They read about this stuff at home on their free time, or when they should be working (like me).  It's unfathomable to most people to imagine there are people who go to work to  look for weaknesses in public opinion and the integrity of congressman and senators (if they aren't themselves congressman and senators) to exploit so they can push through laws that destroy our freedoms for the benefit of their employers.  All day.  Every day. 

We are going to constantly be in danger until we do something to change this.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: mcclay on January 25, 2012, 11:47:06 pm
Ohhhhh fuck, who wants to join an information summgling business with me. We'll deal primarly in hard drives, CD's and floppy discs.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 25, 2012, 11:55:12 pm
One thing to note:  There have been pushes now and then for an Internet Bill of Rights.  There are several various drafts out there.  The idea has been around for almost 15 years.  If it were ever an idea to take seriously, now would be the time.  It wouldn't be a final answer to the problem, but it would be an extra line of defense.  Instead of clawing directly at the heart of the internet, there would be an outer shell they'd have to chip away first, the same way they're doing with those rights that we wrote for ourselves in meatspace.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Angel Of Death on January 25, 2012, 11:58:15 pm
Oh, fuck me. Not again. The internet's fucked if this gets in  :'(
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: mcclay on January 26, 2012, 12:04:33 am
Ohhhhh fuck, who wants to join an information summgling business with me. We'll deal primarly in hard drives, CD's and floppy discs.
I was being fucking serious about this, now who wants to help me or do  have to get my IRL friends to do it with me?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 26, 2012, 12:10:43 am
If things get that bad, I'll just boycott everything that isn't offered under some alternative copyright license.  The biggest distribution channels for such material might get torn down, but there still won't be any legal grounds to prevent people from making their own content from scratch and offering it for free... and I would expect the number of people doing that to increase.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Powder Miner on January 26, 2012, 12:55:21 am
... ... ...
Oh God. This is unconstitutional in so many ways. Then again with the laws being passed nowadays unconstitutionality is nothing new but what the h!@# is this?! This is just friggin moronic. And to think we introduced this? God. Libertarian Rage mode.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Luke_Prowler on January 26, 2012, 12:56:57 am
One thing to note:  There have been pushes now and then for an Internet Bill of Rights.  There are several various drafts out there.  The idea has been around for almost 15 years.  If it were ever an idea to take seriously, now would be the time.  It wouldn't be a final answer to the problem, but it would be an extra line of defense.  Instead of clawing directly at the heart of the internet, there would be an outer shell they'd have to chip away first, the same way they're doing with those rights that we wrote for ourselves in meatspace.
Hmm. Would it actually be possible to have the internet be legally considered a nation?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 26, 2012, 12:59:55 am
I don't think that is possible...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 26, 2012, 01:04:58 am
One thing to note:  There have been pushes now and then for an Internet Bill of Rights.  There are several various drafts out there.  The idea has been around for almost 15 years.  If it were ever an idea to take seriously, now would be the time.  It wouldn't be a final answer to the problem, but it would be an extra line of defense.  Instead of clawing directly at the heart of the internet, there would be an outer shell they'd have to chip away first, the same way they're doing with those rights that we wrote for ourselves in meatspace.
Hmm. Would it actually be possible to have the internet be legally considered a nation?

It's always been a personal fantasy of mine, but I think that's pretty far fetched.  More likely, the internet community could put together a massive campaign advocating a set of rights in U.S. or international law (a treaty counter to ACTA sort of) applying specifically to online behavior and content.  Still far-fetched, but I imagine the legal execution would be identical to ACTA or SOPA, with the content of the law being the ideological polar opposite.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Powder Miner on January 26, 2012, 01:16:47 am
Allowing you to do things on the internet but not in real life? ...uhh...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 26, 2012, 01:21:26 am
Allowing you to do things on the internet but not in real life? ...uhh...

No, not exactly.  This would be something to address issues that are mainly or exclusively relevant to the internet.  Go read one of the many drafts that have been proposed to get a better idea.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Powder Miner on January 26, 2012, 01:25:55 am
Oh, that makes a lot more sense.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Theoboldi on January 26, 2012, 05:43:14 am
So ACTA is being passed today. I really am pretty afraid right now. I really want to do something about it, but it's really too late now. I only heard about this 3 days ago, and now it's already finished. I have no idea what to really say about the whole thing, it makes me completly spechless. I really hope things won't turn out to be as bad as I think they will, but I'm not optimistic about it. ACTA really sounds like the end of internet privacy.

The most annoying thing is that I have no idea what to do about the whole thing. I already signed a petition to stop it and told my friends, but I don't know what else to do. None of these things seem like they have a chance at actually doing anything, but I don't know what else to do.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Montague on January 26, 2012, 06:15:42 am
Well, ACTA can be enforced to varied degrees and can be modifed and certain provisions can be repealed, it's open ended in it's intent. Specificly, it's Section 4 ''"Intellectual Property Rights Enforcement in the Digital Environment" of the treaty is really the nasty part for our purposes, the rest of it otherwise just focuses on counterfeit material goods.

So if it does turn out badly, the government and parties to the treaty can be pressured to amend or end it.

A problem might be that individual internet service providers might voluntarily act in accordance with the provisions, even if later repealed, simply to avoid litigation and legal trouble down the road. Historically this type of thing has happened with other repealed or unenforced laws.

But yeah, looks like it's too late to stop it now, just might have to wait and see how it develops and if it really lives up to the hype one way or another.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Tarran on January 26, 2012, 06:39:52 am
Posting on this thread to see how this develops. Honestly, I can't think of anything to say. This is just plain evil. I mean, I didn't even know about ACTA until recently.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: JoshuaFH on January 26, 2012, 07:26:44 am
I'm surprised it's not illegal to keep these things secret so the public has little time to respond.

Like, really, that's bullshit to just keep it secret and pass it at the last second when it catches everyone by surprise.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: scriver on January 26, 2012, 07:34:11 am
I'm surprised it's not illegal to keep these things secret so the public has little time to respond.

Like, really, that's bullshit to just keep it secret and pass it at the last second when it catches everyone by surprise.

What were you saying, mr Dent? I couldn't hear ju under the sound of the bulldozer engines.


Posting on this thread to see how this develops. Honestly, I can't think of anything to say. This is just plain evil. I mean, I didn't even know about ACTA until recently.

Also this. I'm worried.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Gatleos on January 26, 2012, 09:17:13 am
I don't want to have to tell my kids someday about the good old days of the "Old Internet" before it was gutted and turned into a pipeline for corporate propaganda.
 :(
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Shades on January 26, 2012, 09:35:34 am
I'm surprised it's not illegal to keep these things secret so the public has little time to respond.

Actually it is illegal for a number of reasons, not least the refusal to respond to many freedom of information requests in a number of countries.
That won't actually stop it being enforced into law though.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Shook on January 26, 2012, 10:00:41 am
.v.

At this rate we'll have an apocalypse in 2012 at the hands of the US congress. If they start shutting down sites like Youtube and Dropbox, and/or my internet gets cut off for no apparent reason, i will buy a new connection from a new ISP with my meager student pay and systematically accuse every single goddamn site belonging to the US government that uses the word "shook" for copyright infringement. Maybe that'll convince a few people of just how dumb that treaty is, because if followed by the letter then that should require them to be cut off from their ISP and have the sites shut down instantly and permanently. Sadly, the government doesn't work like that. I'm not american (i'm tempted to say "thank god" but i'm neither religious or that big an ass to the decent people who live there, they're the ones having to deal with living so close to a monster), but dammit, is this what the "american dream" is supposed to be all about, or did that dream just turn into a horrible nightmare? Because that's what it seems like to me.

Apologies for useless ranting, but i am gravely offended by the sudden and compulsive need of the government to violate the internet like this. It is, arguably, the current magnum opus of mankind (sure the moonlanding was great, but the internet contains the moon several times over with global accessibility), and now they're actively trying to ruin it for the entire goddamn world. It'd be like covering two-thirds of Mona Lisa with black paint because it's now illegal to have those two-thirds depicted. It saddens me that (with huge probability) nobody responsible for it will read this, though. Hope y'all can bear with me for getting upset like this, i don't usually rant about something without thinking it to be incredibly stupid.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Montague on January 26, 2012, 10:08:07 am
More then likely, this new internet regulation isn't going to be as terrible as it's being made out to be.

People will find work-arounds to get what they want.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on January 26, 2012, 10:08:53 am
It will have to be repealed eventually, if only because people are going to lose jobs because of this and no politician wants to look like the guy who signed a job-killing treaty.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nilocy on January 26, 2012, 11:47:09 am
More then likely, this new internet regulation isn't going to be as terrible as it's being made out to be.

People will find work-arounds to get what they want.

Wait what, its basically turning your ISPs into copyright police.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Angel Of Death on January 26, 2012, 11:49:11 am
People, download TOR and Freenet while you can. You may need them in the not so far future.n
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Shades on January 26, 2012, 11:54:31 am
People, download TOR and Freenet while you can. You may need them in the not so far future.n

Easy to block at an ISP level. In fact a number do when you have child protections enabled and the like already.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 01:54:29 pm
What the FUUU??

Printed off all the released documents I can find.

Here's a brief overview:
*They don't know what copyright entitles
*Rights are only given to those who own everything
*Intellectual property can be applied to everything information based - goodbye internet
*'Legitimate trade' is hurt by piracy and counterfeiting. So lets destroy the internet!
*Fuck the civilians
*Civil enforcement
*Border searches
*Indefinite equipment seizure
* Mysterious 3rd parties which are never elaborated on have almost total control over how the system works
*Governments are entitled to use whatever is 'necessary,' or MORE than necessary
*Copyright infringement apparently causes injury
*Mysterious 3rd party gets exclusive rights to choosing compensation, suspending the return of suspected counterfeit items and worse
*Compensation is ridiculous
*Political censorship is a virtual guarantee
*No more privacy for you
*You're guilty until proven innocent. You can get done in for being suspected for copyright infringement. What the fuck?
*Fuck the DMCA.
*Fuck the safe harbour article 512 in the DMCA
*Fuck human rights

And many more!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Gantolandon on January 26, 2012, 02:08:33 pm
As if ACTA wasn't bad enough, there is also the way it was introduced. For example, this is how it was in Poland. All links, unfortunately, are in Polish - but Google Translate should leave it at least readable.

After the secret negotiations, ACTA was formally passed (in EU) by the Agriculture and Fisheries Council - this is how it stayed undetected so long. The Polish government, of course, was required to make public consultations, which it did - asking 27 organizations (http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114884,11024526,ACTA__Konsultacje_spoleczne_rzadu_to_fikcja__Protest.html), most of which represent copyright holders and mainstream media. Wait, did I say "most"?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I meant every single fucking one of them.

Surprisingly, these objective subjects representing the entire society didn't object, so the appropriate resolution was quickly passed by the government just after the elections. Most of the Poles knew about ACTA only last Thursday and this is when the major protests started to show up.

Despite massive protests (and one minor riot), the government is adamant. ACTA was signed by the Polish ambassador today and the Prime Minister refused any possibility of a referendum (which an opposition party proposed) saying (http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/raporty/protest-przeciw-umowie-acta/boni-i-zdrojewski-beda-wyjasniac-kontrowersje-woko,1,5009668,wiadomosc.html), that "The responsible government must sometimes undertake to make decisions which we know won't be popular.". From the Facebook page of the Prime Ministry over 7000 comments disappeared (http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/raporty/protest-przeciw-umowie-acta/rzad-kasuje-niewygodne-wpisy-to-wyjatkowa-sytuacja,1,5009550,wiadomosc.html) because of "profane language and spam" - later Fanpage Trender analysts checked 1/3 of them and found only several dozen such comments.

The mainstream press tries to be more objective, but sometimes fails spectacularly. For example, in TOK FM radio audition, two publicists claimed (http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114871,11035487,_Mlodzi_zostali_zmanipulowani__Komus_zalezy_na_tych.html) that the protesters were manipulated by the "Internet businesses supporting piracy".

There are also hilarious apologies from the politics who supported ACTA before and now are against it. Marek Migalski claims that he didn't know what were he voting for (http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114884,11026458,Migalski__Poslowie_nie_wiedza_za_czym_glosuja__Glosowalem.html). He admitted that most of the deputies and eurodeputies usually don't know that, they are too busy with politics. For some reason I can believe him.

So yeah, that's democracy in Europe.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 02:46:43 pm
So yeah, that's democracy in Europe.

Several decades in the future, people will look back and make Soviet Russia jokes about Dystopian Europe.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Angel Of Death on January 26, 2012, 02:50:20 pm
So yeah, that's democracy in Europe.

Several decades in the future, people will look back and make Soviet Russia jokes about Dystopian Europe.
In Dystopian Europe, corporations spy on whistleblowers!

Sorry, couldn't resist :P. Is ACTA in effect yet?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 02:56:16 pm
So yeah, that's democracy in Europe.

Several decades in the future, people will look back and make Soviet Russia jokes about Dystopian Europe.
In Dystopian Europe, corporations spy on whistleblowers!

Sorry, couldn't resist :P. Is ACTA in effect yet?

Not until they find a way to enforce it. Once they do, ACTA begins to be fulfilled, and legally takes effect.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: King DZA on January 26, 2012, 03:13:59 pm
This should be interesting, to say the least.

Now, I should probably go screw around on YouTube for a bit, before all I get is a 'This webpage is no longer available' message.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Gantolandon on January 26, 2012, 03:14:15 pm
Quote
Sorry, couldn't resist :P. Is ACTA in effect yet?

Depends. In most European countries signing it is not enough, it needs to be ratified by the appropriate country's parliament. Also, European Parliament can reject it for the whole EU.

Also, ACTA, as every international treaty, doesn't actually mandate anything. It's a list of things the signing countries promise to pass, written in vague, barely understandable legalese. It's more a groundwork for scary shit than scary shit itself.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: darkrider2 on January 26, 2012, 03:17:44 pm
Yeah and with lobbying we already pump out quite a bit of scary shit ourselves.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Vector on January 26, 2012, 03:18:21 pm
Now, I should probably go screw around on YouTube for a bit, before all I get is a 'This webpage is no longer available' message.

I'm scared that I'll get hauled in for watching something that infringes copyright >_>
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: freeformschooler on January 26, 2012, 03:21:59 pm
Now, I should probably go screw around on YouTube for a bit, before all I get is a 'This webpage is no longer available' message.

I'm scared that I'll get hauled in for watching something that infringes copyright >_>

Or Livestreaming it!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 03:24:00 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, technically almost everyone who's posted in this thread can be persecuted under ACTA. That's how vague the laws are.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: darkflagrance on January 26, 2012, 03:30:25 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, technically almost everyone who's posted in this thread can be persecuted under ACTA. That's how vague the laws are.

In that case, I'm posting in this thread so that I can be persecuted as well when the government inevitably trolls through decades of built-up forum miscellany in order to fulfill the monthly quota of leftist pirates to be vanished.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on January 26, 2012, 03:31:08 pm
I appreciate the typos.  Gold Star to whatever knucklehead made that.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Solifuge on January 26, 2012, 03:46:37 pm
Yeah, ACTA flew completely under the radar for me, when it was in negotiation. I feel like a terribly informed citizen.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not sure how not supporting any copyrighted material all March will help. Copyrights are important... about as important as revising copyright law is right now. We need to do it right, though, in a way that grows along with new technology (ex. the Internet) rather than runs at odds with it. ACTA does not achieve this, and instead diminishes the power of new technology to support business models never before possible, and fighting what could otherwise make media and culture widely accessible.

Anyway, I'mma keep on Livestreaming, using Youtube, etc. If there comes a day when I am arrested for no other reason than doing the above, then may I be able to make a message of myself.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: King DZA on January 26, 2012, 03:47:43 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, technically almost everyone who's posted in this thread can be persecuted under ACTA. That's how vague the laws are.

No worries, if I avoided doing things solely because they were considered illegal, my life would be far less eventful.

Considering I am too broke to buy anything, and I seldom download things anyway, I'll be helping out that black march thing just by following my normal routine. :)
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Gantolandon on January 26, 2012, 04:01:34 pm
Quote
Not sure how not supporting any copyrighted material all March will help. Copyrights are important... about as important as revising copyright law is right now.

The best way to protest is to hurt the opponent in some way without supporting him with additional argument. Temporarily resigning from consuming copyrighted material at all disrupts content-distributing businesses mostly, which are the main beneficiaries of ACTA. Also, it may lead more people to find less restrictive sources of entertainment.

I find it a great, if somewhat hard to implement, idea.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Karakzon on January 26, 2012, 05:03:49 pm
i would say the only way to get that to work would be to send out a massive number of messages to the online community. Once you get the majority of anonymous behind it shit will hit the fan in a royal fashion.
Coupled with this youde need to get a donations site set up and use the cash to push forward a law that supports the internets freedom in a way that wouldnt invalidate copyright laws, but would preserve peoples privacy.

dont know how youd go about that, but i suppose if you went and sent messages to lawyers/lobbyists/law makers/major protests groups about how you would go about doing this, before you started anything obviously, then got a good solid draft up then it would theoreticaly be possible.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 05:05:44 pm
Like the DMCA? The copyright act designed to defend copyright and the freedom of digital information?

Well, if ACTA gets priority, the DMCA will become useless.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Luke_Prowler on January 26, 2012, 05:11:17 pm
How will this affect Fair Use?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: scriver on January 26, 2012, 05:12:29 pm
Anyway, I'mma keep on Livestreaming, using Youtube, etc. If there comes a day when I am arrested for no other reason than doing the above, then may I be able to make a message of myself.

When they kick in your front door
How you gonna go
With your hands on your head
Or rattling on your keyboard

Oooh Keys of Brixton
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nadaka on January 26, 2012, 05:13:11 pm
How will this affect Fair Use?
The cartels do not recognize fair use as a thing that exists.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Karakzon on January 26, 2012, 05:15:41 pm
How will this affect Fair Use?

if your on about ACTA:

essentialy youll be able to use the net, but do one wrong thing, speak out in the wrong way, try find the wrong site or annoy someone and bam. Accusation of copyright theft, internet cut off, computer seized for an indefinate amount of time, all your files and online activitys searched through and your privacy violated by unsecure and unaccountable third partys. And should you have a single file that you shouldnt, theoreticaly you could be extrodited and tried in another country or shoved a hefty fine on you.

Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: nenjin on January 26, 2012, 05:23:08 pm
Fair Use will probably survive, since it covers a whole host of things that diverge significantly from the original content, like parody. In the US anyways.

But what's construed as Fair Use might shrink, and the ability of copyright holders to launch extra-legal countermeasures means they can preempt any legal challenge with their penalty. They can stick it to you even before the courts decide to hear your case to decide whether what you're doing is Fair Use or not. And so people decide they can't even risk being wrong to see where the boundaries are.

A 10 second clip from a 30 minute show, that you show during your news cast, is Fair Use. That's the part that is mostly likely to change because of this.

Showing a copyrighted image that you've doodled on, perhaps adding a funny mustache and some glasses, would be Fair Use and would probably still survive.

That's what the Chilling Effect is all about, people become unwilling to even risk it because the consequences, even in victory, are too severe. The old adage "It's easier to seek forgiveness than permission" would be in a sense be turned on its head.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: UltraValican on January 26, 2012, 05:28:08 pm
I'm going to see about that poster getting put up around my school....
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 05:35:39 pm
How will this affect Fair Use?

if your on about ACTA:

essentialy youll be able to use the net, but do one wrong thing, speak out in the wrong way, try find the wrong site or annoy someone and bam. Accusation of copyright theft, internet cut off, computer seized for an indefinate amount of time, all your files and online activitys searched through and your privacy violated by unsecure and unaccountable third partys. And should you have a single file that you shouldnt, theoreticaly you could be extrodited and tried in another country or shoved a hefty fine on you.

Extraditing isn't even needed, this'll become an international law. Your "suspected counterfeit evidence" or "suspected evidence of copyright infringement which must be protected from destruction" can be seized, and according to article 16 (b) of Border Measures;
(b) where appropriate, a right holder may request its competent authorities to suspend the release of, or to detain, suspect goods.
Also, anything from the three strikes system, to fines or even prison are being considered legit. ways of combating copyright infringement claims.

Fair Use will probably survive, since it covers a whole host of things that diverge significantly from the original content, like parody. In the US anyways.

But what's construed as Fair Use might shrink, and the ability of copyright holders to launch extra-legal countermeasures means they can preempt any legal challenge with their penalty. They can stick it to you even before the courts decide to hear your case to decide whether what you're doing is Fair Use or not. And so people decide they can't even risk being wrong to see where the boundaries are.

A 10 second clip from a 30 minute show, that you show during your news cast, is Fair Use. That's the part that is mostly likely to change because of this.

Showing a copyrighted image that you've doodled on, perhaps adding a funny mustache and some glasses, would be Fair Use and would probably still survive.

That's what the Chilling Effect is all about, people become unwilling to even risk it because the consequences, even in victory, are too severe. The old adage "It's easier to seek forgiveness than permission" would be in a sense be turned on its head.

ACTA completely ignores fair use, thanks to their extremely vague idea of "intellectual property."
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: nenjin on January 26, 2012, 05:39:32 pm
Then it will face a legal challenge at some point here in American courts, guaranteed. People get verklemped about laws passing but if the EU is any example, the law being passed is just the beginning. Fair Use is vital to the news casting industry.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 05:45:59 pm
Then it will face a legal challenge at some point here in American courts, guaranteed. People get verklemped about laws passing but if the EU is any example, the law being passed is just the beginning. Fair Use is vital to the news casting industry.

I'm just hoping enough media coverage is attained before this thing destroys the internet.

The article that's sticking out to me the most is~
Quote from: 41: WITHDRAWAL
          A Party may withdraw from this Agreement by means of a written notification to the Depositary*. The withdrawal shall take effect 180 days after the Depositary receives the notification.
*The Depositary being the government of Japan.

Also,
Quote from: 40: ENTRY INTO FORCE
1. This Agreement shall enter into force thirty days after the date of deposit of the sixth instrument of ratification, acceptance, or approval.
2. This Agreement shall enter into force for each Signatory that deposits its instrument of ratification, acceptance or approval after the deposit of the sixth instrument of ratification, acceptance, or approval, thirty days after the date of deposit by such Signatory of its instrument of ratification, acceptance or approval.

We've got a month.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Vector on January 26, 2012, 05:49:16 pm
BRB, investing in grappling hook, combat boots, and... what was the last thing?  Right, a long red bandana.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Karakzon on January 26, 2012, 05:50:26 pm
Well lads. If your up for doing anything im all with you, i have tor, i can easily help out. But unless someone has a good idea how to deal with this, then im not going to be able to do much.

Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 05:54:08 pm
Well lads. If your up for doing anything im all with you, i have tor, i can easily help out. But unless someone has a good idea how to deal with this, then im not going to be able to do much.

Spread awareness, learn the facts, spread those, contact leaders, politicians, lawyers - anyone who can do anything about it. As shown by Poland, the government doesn't seem to want to listen to its own people, even when they're protesting - even when they're rioting.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Solifuge on January 26, 2012, 05:55:11 pm
BRB, investing in grappling hook, combat boots, and... what was the last thing?  Right, a long red bandana.

Suppose I'll be torrenting floorplans and schedules for several government faclilities then, pulling strings to get streaming satellite camera info, and investing in a few in-ear radios. Also, watching more Animes.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 05:59:19 pm
Ah, here's some hopeful news for Europe - even though it's been signed, it still has to get through the European parliament. Which will happen in the 14th of June, we have room to breathe and help affect the out come. Germany, the Netherlands, Estonia, Cyprus and Slovakia also did not sign it.
Not so sure about America and Australia though.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: mcclay on January 26, 2012, 05:59:46 pm
Wait, has this "thing" been passed im Amercia yet, if so then shhhiiiiiiiitttttttttt.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 06:00:16 pm
Wait, has this "thing" been passed im Amercia yet, if so then shhhiiiiiiiitttttttttt.
America and Australia signed it in September  >:(

Anyone else got any news? This stuff is bloody hard to find.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: mcclay on January 26, 2012, 06:05:41 pm
Really, fuuuuuuuucccckkkkkkkkkk.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Karakzon on January 26, 2012, 06:14:30 pm
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/networking/2012/01/26/uk-signs-acta-as-activists-urge-resistance-40094914/ <- news article for the lazy.

As such, we have around 4 or 5 months to get a shit storm raised to get the EU to vote No.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Tarran on January 26, 2012, 06:54:11 pm
Good luck europemens, we'll be cheering for you... ...from behind iron bars.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 07:05:42 pm
Good luck europemens, we'll be cheering for you... ...from behind iron bars.
If Europe votes no America, Australia, Canada and New Zealand will have to opt out as well, or so that is the desired hope. China and Singapore, not so certain about, Singaporeans have not been known to be concerned with the internet, and China already have existing censorship laws.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Gatleos on January 26, 2012, 07:16:19 pm
*applies fake mustache and lowers self into bomb shelter*
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Trapezohedron on January 26, 2012, 07:16:35 pm
Wow, this f**king sucks.

If the Europeans protest peacefully, will they listen to the public at all? I mean, this stupid law was in the making tons of years prior, and seemed to be a fallback for SOPA/PIPA, in case those stupid laws didn't get passed and were shelved.

I can only hope...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Tarran on January 26, 2012, 07:19:51 pm
If Europe votes no America, Australia, Canada and New Zealand will have to opt out as well, or so that is the desired hope.
My goodness! What do you guys need to get them to say no? Food? Guns? Our money--which will likely put us further into debt? Our souls?

China and Singapore, not so certain about, Singaporeans have not been known to be concerned with the internet, and China already have existing censorship laws.
I've never really heard about Singapore sites, so I'd say Singapore wouldn't even be bothered. China... China is already pretty bad and pretty far gone as far as I can tell with their Great Firewall.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: DrKillPatient on January 26, 2012, 07:42:12 pm
Curses! This foils my plans of fleeing to Europe to escape the effects of America's continuing Bush-era descent into madness. I guess there's still the possibility of stopping ACTA in the EU, however small. We need to get the word out, though, and I'll try my best to do so.

What can we in America do about it, besides spreading information?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Trapezohedron on January 26, 2012, 07:47:39 pm
English Wikipedia could be convinced to black out again, this time for seven days, since it was oh so effective at getting interest.

But I don't think it will work a second time...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Angel Of Death on January 26, 2012, 07:53:22 pm
Spreading word of ACTA probably isn't going to help much. We need a much more efficient way of telling the government "Fuck you, we will not stand for this censorship". Something tells me peaceful protest just isn't going to cut it anymore :(
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Luke_Prowler on January 26, 2012, 07:55:00 pm
How about a good old fashion torch and pitchfork mob?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Trapezohedron on January 26, 2012, 07:57:11 pm
Protests won't do s**t anymore, IMO. Riots will, but it only has a small chance of changing things.

We're f**ked if we can't find a nice and efficient way of telling people to oppose this madness.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: UltraValican on January 26, 2012, 08:01:03 pm
Can't people like get together and...counter lobby?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Gatleos on January 26, 2012, 08:03:33 pm
Can't people like get together and...counter lobby?
Yes, but sitting on your ass is much more convenient. The average citizen just doesn't care enough until it's too late.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 08:04:27 pm
Spreading word of ACTA probably isn't going to help much. We need a much more efficient way of telling the government "Fuck you, we will not stand for this censorship". Something tells me peaceful protest just isn't going to cut it anymore :(

Safety in numbers. And any help is still help.

Wow, this f**king sucks.

If the Europeans protest peacefully, will they listen to the public at all? I mean, this stupid law was in the making tons of years prior, and seemed to be a fallback for SOPA/PIPA, in case those stupid laws didn't get passed and were shelved.

I can only hope...
Protests won't do s**t anymore, IMO. Riots will, but it only has a small chance of changing things.

We're f**ked if we can't find a nice and efficient way of telling people to oppose this madness.

20,000 protesters in Poland, and a small riot went off. Polish government still signed ACTA. Remember the London Riots? Instant demonization, and the whole reason for the riots were erased from media.
Demonstrations are needed - but are needed on a large scale.

China and Singapore, not so certain about, Singaporeans have not been known to be concerned with the internet, and China already have existing censorship laws.
I've never really heard about Singapore sites, so I'd say Singapore wouldn't even be bothered. China... China is already pretty bad and pretty far gone as far as I can tell with their Great Firewall.

Singapore is an alpha class city, with a shit ton of trade and businesses. I think they'd actually like ACTA.

Can't people like get together and...counter lobby?

Apparently the new meaning for democracy is having people you didn't elect make all the decisions for you, which restrict your freedom.
Can't people like get together and...counter lobby?
Yes, but sitting on your ass is much more convenient. The average citizen just doesn't care enough until it's too late.

Sadly yes. It'd not be the first time someone has gone up to me asking if there was a political agenda behind why I would try to raise awareness for this :/
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: scriver on January 26, 2012, 08:08:23 pm
Protests won't do s**t anymore, IMO. Riots will, but it only has a small chance of changing things.

We're f**ked if we can't find a nice and efficient way of telling people to oppose this madness.

The only change rioting causes is turning people against the cause.


Can't people like get together and...counter lobby?

Not enough capital interest, so it doesn't have any weight. Gotta turn the public opinion, make people aware of what this means. It's so obviously wrong in so many ways, too, so it can't be very hard. There's a reason they kept so silent about this, I guess.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Gatleos on January 26, 2012, 08:18:25 pm
Any day now, a war-hardened revolutionary from the future is going to arrive in a time machine and slap the pen out of someone's hand before they can sign ACTA. Then they will regale us with stories of the dark dystopian future they come from, ravaged by a great conflict known to them only as "The Copyright Wars". You'll see.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Powder Miner on January 26, 2012, 08:19:56 pm
You know, maybe rioting isn't the best way to demonstrate? I myself agree fullheartedly with the "demonization" of violent riots- the London Riots for instance had a lot of looting and arson/
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: King DZA on January 26, 2012, 08:23:32 pm
Any day now, a war-hardened revolutionary from the future is going to arrive in a time machine and slap the pen out of someone's hand before they can sign ACTA. Then they will regale us with stories of the dark dystopian future they come from, ravaged by a great conflict known to them only as "The Copyright Wars". You'll see.

That reminds me, I still need to invest in a leather trench coat and some fingerless gloves.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: DrKillPatient on January 26, 2012, 08:24:13 pm
Corrupt individuals in power have lots of money, and thus they rule everything. What they don't have, however, is numbers. I'm sure that can be used to great effect, somehow... ideally, in a peaceful manner. (I hope it's not too late for that.) Staying peaceful definitely makes a movement more appealing, and I doubt that violence is truly necessary if, say, the majority of a country's population gets behind such a cause. As I said, big numbers are scary.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 26, 2012, 08:25:32 pm
Wow, when bay12 starts to look at rioting as an option, I honestly feel a little insecure. I mean the internet is 90% retarded, and I would expect that 90% to resort to rioting given any chance they could, and then there is bay12, the 10% of the 10% who are pretty fucking left wing, humanitarian, and generally against needless violence. This must be worse than first thought if we are running that low on options.
I mean excuse the expression, but shit just got real.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 08:29:42 pm
You know, maybe rioting isn't the best way to demonstrate? I myself agree fullheartedly with the "demonization" of violent riots- the London Riots for instance had a lot of looting and arson/

There was two cases of significant arson.

>Media says London was on fire

Youths stealing rice to feed themselves

>Shows "good Samaritan" video and takes down interview of English citizen that explained the reasons behind the riots. Also accuses him of rioting, which he destroys.
>Ignores unfair treatment of youth, and the killing by the hands of police.

I have a feeling that the media might be slightly pro government.

Wow, when bay12 starts to look at rioting as an option, I honestly feel a little insecure. I mean the internet is 90% retarded, and I would expect that 90% to resort to rioting given any chance they could, and then there is bay12, the 10% of the 10% who are pretty fucking left wing, humanitarian, and generally against needless violence. This must be worse than first thought if we are running that low on options.
I mean excuse the expression, but shit just got real.
It would only be an option when no options are left. It probably wouldn't even be viable if there were no other options anyways. But ACTA is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: DrKillPatient on January 26, 2012, 08:32:38 pm
I have a feeling that the media might be slightly pro government.

Not pro government for government's sake. Pro power, which means pro money, which means pro government. And money's only power when people are willing to follow the rules laid down by politicians who have been bought out. Fewer people are every day.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: King DZA on January 26, 2012, 08:43:13 pm
I am sincerely interested in seeing how they enforce this law. There's part of me that wants to go about and jumpstart a revolution. But there's the other part that ruins all the excitement by presuming this is going to be one of those laws that no one really takes seriously (once the hype dies down). Like jaywalking. Of course, there's always that itsy bitsy chance that the ones behind it honestly don't give a damn about that, and will just be using it as an excuse to get rid of people they don't like.

It's times like these that tend to confuse me. Where I can't tell if the governments are made up of sinister masterminds with everything figured out, or idiots who have no idea what the hell they're doing...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Gatleos on January 26, 2012, 08:47:30 pm
It's times like these that tend to confuse me. Where I can't tell if the governments are made up of sinister masterminds with everything figured out, or idiots who have no idea what the hell they're doing...
It's made of sinister masterminds with everything figured out controlling idiots who have no idea what the hell they're doing.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 26, 2012, 08:47:56 pm
I am sincerely interested in seeing how they enforce this law.

Simple, they ignore it until they find a website they want to burn, then use it to take them down.
What, you thought they were going to try and police the entire internet? Not likely, only things they don't like that they can't take down through other means.

I mean fuck, did you know Cadbury has copy write on a specific shade of purple? They could take down your site for using the wrong color, but nobody is going to sit there checking the hex codes of every web page! Instead they find something they hate, and comb over it for any minute detail and use it against you.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: King DZA on January 26, 2012, 08:52:03 pm
Yep, that's what I'm thinking. I've been worried that they would actually be retarded enough to try controlling the entire World Wide Web.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Blargityblarg on January 26, 2012, 08:52:50 pm
I am sincerely interested in seeing how they enforce this law.

Simple, they ignore it until they find a website they want to burn, then use it to take them down.
What, you thought they were going to try and police the entire internet? Not likely, only things they don't like that they can't take down through other means.

I mean fuck, did you know Cadbury has copy write on a specific shade of purple? They could take down your site for using the wrong color, but nobody is going to sit there checking the hex codes of every web page! Instead they find something they hate, and comb over it for any minute detail and use it against you.

They had a very lengthy legal battle with Darrell Lea, an Australian chocolate company, over the use of purple; for all I know, it's still ongoing.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 26, 2012, 08:54:43 pm
I've checked the claims on the back on their bars, they say they have copy write to it. Hoping that isn't true right now...
Seriously, I can think of nothing more open source than the visible light spectrum.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Trapezohedron on January 26, 2012, 08:56:14 pm
I must agree with everyone that rioting won't do anything. But when you're out of options, what else could you do?

Note that I totally abhor riots, since they bring more problems to the table than solutions (and may even kill others).

I hope we can find a solution out of this mess that doesn't involve rioting. SOPA had enough time for publicity, and was prevented from becoming law because of that. But this one just suddenly woke up from the grave, announced that it'll become law in a few days without warning and suddenly got signed by the UK.

We must find a way to stop the other governments doing the same.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Powder Miner on January 26, 2012, 08:56:41 pm
There were four deaths and fourteen injuries (according to Wikipedia, it might be higher or lower but Wikipedia gets less credit than it deserves.)
Two cases of significant arson is still bad. How about we not break out the pitchforks and not riot? Because violent rioting is bad no matter what way you look at it.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 26, 2012, 09:00:09 pm
I think a lot more can be said by standing in front of a tank than attacking it.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2012, 09:04:51 pm
I must agree with everyone that rioting won't do anything. But when you're out of options, what else could you do?

Note that I totally abhor riots, since they bring more problems to the table than solutions (and may even kill others).

I hope we can find a solution out of this mess that doesn't involve rioting. SOPA had enough time for publicity, and was prevented from becoming law because of that. But this one just suddenly woke up from the grave, announced that it'll become law in a few days without warning and suddenly got signed by the UK.

We must find a way to stop the other governments doing the same.

The UK?

Erm, first it was signed by America, then the world. We need to stop it getting passed, Americans can try congress, Europeans can try the Eu. Parliament, China, well you're stuffed :d
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 26, 2012, 10:23:55 pm
Can't people like get together and...counter lobby?

Like I said before, industries pay people to make lobbying their full-time job.  I can't make activism my full-time job.  Can you?  We can put together our own organizations where we donate money to support full-time lobbyists, but plenty such organizations already exist.  They just can't match the power of corporate lobbyists, who are far less scrupulous and have far more resources at their disposal.

I think a lot more can be said by standing in front of a tank than attacking it.

I don't necessarily disagree, but you might want to find a better example.  The Tiananmen Square incident may have produced a powerful image for the rest of the world, but it didn't do much in China.  Supposedly, most people younger than their mid-20's in China aren't even aware that it happened, because any recognition of the event is forbidden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989#Taboo_topic_and_Censorship).

If you're going to give your life for a cause, you have to do it on your own terms.  The government wouldn't choose to roll a tank over you, if it didn't think it could control the aftermath.  Compare to this flaming individual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc), who chose and retained complete control over the terms of his own sacrifice, and made a huge impact.

I'm not encouraging anyone to go out and immolate themselves.  I'm just saying that these things are always about setting the stage.  You have to take control of the situation in some way.  You can't just stand in the path of victimization, and expect it to make a statement.  Violence would be a more effective choice than badly strategized martyrdom.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: darkrider2 on January 26, 2012, 10:52:05 pm
Money makes decisions in government.

Unless you vote them out, oh wait, money determines elections too.

Inform the public to know better then! No, media coverage requires tons of money.

Fuck.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 26, 2012, 11:51:38 pm
French MEP quits ACTA 'charade' in protest at EU signing (http://www.zdnet.co.uk/blogs/communication-breakdown-10000030/mep-quits-acta-charade-in-protest-at-eu-signing-10025297/)
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: JoshuaFH on January 26, 2012, 11:56:07 pm
Yay French MEP, doing the right thing for everyone!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 26, 2012, 11:56:46 pm
Quote
However, the MEP said ACTA would have an impact on civil liberties, ISPs' responsibilities and the manufacturing of generic drugs.
Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on January 26, 2012, 11:57:57 pm
Yeah, copyright claims by the corporations that make the expensive stuff would likely shut down a lot of affordable generics.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 26, 2012, 11:59:49 pm
Affordability of medicines is one of the hottest topics in the overall intellectual property debate.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 27, 2012, 12:00:10 am
Ah, I see.
So you mean we are also fighting large pharmaceutics? Son of a...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 27, 2012, 12:06:29 am
Ah, I see.
So you mean we are also fighting large pharmaceutics? Son of a...

Yup.  My dad works for one of them.  He's a globally respected pharmacokineticist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmacokinetics).    He's also been rather nervous lately.  Several of their most profitable drugs have patents set to expire soon, and they don't have any good breakthroughs in the pipeline anytime soon.  There's been a lot of tension in the corporate side of things lately, because they expect a major drop in profits.  They've been throwing themselves pretty heavily at IP legislation lately.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Montague on January 27, 2012, 12:32:03 am
I'm doubtful of the effectiveness of protests and roits. Look at the annual G8 and G20 roits/protests. Predictible balls-out protests and even violence hasn't discouraged them at all.

French MEP quits ACTA 'charade' in protest at EU signing (http://www.zdnet.co.uk/blogs/communication-breakdown-10000030/mep-quits-acta-charade-in-protest-at-eu-signing-10025297/)

Ugh, the French are always right...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: alway on January 27, 2012, 12:40:55 am
http://thedailywh.at/2012/01/26/photo-of-the-day-18/
Polish opposition dons Guy Fawkes masks in protest of ACTA signing.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 27, 2012, 12:46:11 am
Heh, that is amazing...
Sort of makes me want to go see what 4chan is up to.
Then I remember that I have no interest in seeing what 4chan is up to, and are happy to watch the aftermath... Still, they must be having a party!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: PTTG?? on January 27, 2012, 10:53:35 am
We need Anonymous to get its act together and start publicizing darknet. We can outrun the aging government.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: GlyphGryph on January 27, 2012, 11:03:59 am
Quote
He's also been rather nervous lately.  Several of their most profitable drugs have patents set to expire soon, and they don't have any good breakthroughs in the pipeline anytime soon.  There's been a lot of tension in the corporate side of things lately, because they expect a major drop in profits. 
This is how the system is supposed to work, though - you aren't supposed to keep profiting off the same stuff - you make progress, or you die (economically, of course), making room for those who are managing to create new stuff and giving them additional resources to work with based off your expired patents. That's how the incentive structure works.

If they can't figure out how to make new stuff, the solution isn't to let them keep making profits - it's to let them go out of business, because their benefit to society has ended.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Gantolandon on January 27, 2012, 11:25:51 am
Meanwhile in Poland... There was a little scandal. Apparently, after the Sejm commitee has passed a desideratum urging the Prime Minister to postpone signing of ACTA, someone called the next day. A woman, who claimed to speak from the USA embassy, were asking questions, trying to learn how it was possible. She asked, for example, how many deputized voted for and against it and if there were "Sejm discipline" (it's a practice which most of the Polish parties try to enforce - every deputy has to vote according to the official party line). The press office of the embassy, when the curious reporters called, claimed they don't know about any such event. Still, most of the deputes are somewhat pissed.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: etgfrog on January 27, 2012, 12:26:27 pm
welp...i've known the end times were coming for quite a while...i almost feel horible for knowing that this stuff would happen...while i'm tempted to go don one of those mask and hope to do something against the goverment(as long as its non-violent)...i realy cant since i'm 70% certain anon will go start focusing on getting rid of religion(indoctrination will probably be their rally cry against it) after their ideals are widely supported and goverments shift twords them...

unfortunitly...for the time being, it looks like anon is the lesser of evils...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 27, 2012, 02:24:00 pm
Quote
He's also been rather nervous lately.  Several of their most profitable drugs have patents set to expire soon, and they don't have any good breakthroughs in the pipeline anytime soon.  There's been a lot of tension in the corporate side of things lately, because they expect a major drop in profits. 
This is how the system is supposed to work, though - you aren't supposed to keep profiting off the same stuff - you make progress, or you die (economically, of course), making room for those who are managing to create new stuff and giving them additional resources to work with based off your expired patents. That's how the incentive structure works.

If they can't figure out how to make new stuff, the solution isn't to let them keep making profits - it's to let them go out of business, because their benefit to society has ended.

Oh, I know, and I agree.  Regardless of the ideal, the company's motivation is still going to be to use the resources available to them to pre-empt their own obsolescence by hacking the system, when they know there's not much chance of conducting business legitimately.  IP law is just one such backdoor that gives them the opportunity.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on January 27, 2012, 02:27:58 pm
Hilariously enough, Twitter has just announced plans to censor itself, to bring it into compliance with various government restrictions around the world.  After being "instrumental" in the Arab uprisings (for about a day or two each), this has a lot of people pretty ticked off.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Tilla on January 27, 2012, 02:31:16 pm
Hilariously, every masked member of Anonymous is paying funds directly into the pockets of Time Warner by buying their licensed V for Vendetta Guy Fawkes masks.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 27, 2012, 02:45:11 pm
Sort of makes me want to go see what 4chan is up to.
Then I remember that I have no interest in seeing what 4chan is up to, and are happy to watch the aftermath... Still, they must be having a party!

As I recall, one of the ACTA threads turned into a flame war, that turned into a thread about orange soda. Meanwhile, the useful parts of 4chan are pissed, and talks of riots, demonstrations and other means of protest are ongoing.

Hilariously, every masked member of Anonymous is paying funds directly into the pockets of Time Warner by buying their licensed V for Vendetta Guy Fawkes masks.

Unless they buy Guy Fawkes masks, and not V ones. Or if they don't buy them from Time Warner. Also, try to stay on topic, this is about ACTA not who likes/hates anonymous :/
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Tilla on January 27, 2012, 02:49:22 pm
Sort of makes me want to go see what 4chan is up to.
Then I remember that I have no interest in seeing what 4chan is up to, and are happy to watch the aftermath... Still, they must be having a party!

As I recall, one of the ACTA threads turned into a flame war, that turned into a thread about orange soda. Meanwhile, the useful parts of 4chan are pissed, and talks of riots, demonstrations and other means of protest are ongoing.

Hilariously, every masked member of Anonymous is paying funds directly into the pockets of Time Warner by buying their licensed V for Vendetta Guy Fawkes masks.

Unless they buy Guy Fawkes masks, and not V ones. Or if they don't buy them from Time Warner. Also, try to stay on topic, this is about ACTA not who likes/hates anonymous :/
I don't hate Anonymous. Not in the least. But it is INCREDIBLY ironic that they're protesting bigmedia while wearing something purchased directly from one of the biggest companies.

And no, you cannot find a plain Guy Fawkes mask anymore basically anywhere outside of maybe the UK itself. They're ALL licensed V for Vendetta masks.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: GlyphGryph on January 27, 2012, 02:51:05 pm
Hey, just because a company is willing to sell us the noose doesn't mean we should forgo hanging them with it. ;)
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 27, 2012, 03:04:31 pm
I don't hate Anonymous. Not in the least. But it is INCREDIBLY ironic that they're protesting bigmedia while wearing something purchased directly from one of the biggest companies.

And no, you cannot find a plain Guy Fawkes mask anymore basically anywhere outside of maybe the UK itself. They're ALL licensed V for Vendetta masks.
Spoiler: orly (click to show/hide)

Ha ha, ok let's get back on topic, we don't want orange soda in this thread.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 27, 2012, 03:06:18 pm
I don't get it, personally.  It's a powerful and widely recognized image that's fitting for a protester.  It also happens to be owned by a major corporation... just like everything else.  That irony is just an unavoidable part of the system, not of any choice made by anonymous or anybody else.  It would be exactly the same no matter what they chose to cover their faces with.  Some corporation would be profiting.  The measures a person would have to go to in order to protest the system from completely outside of the system would be impossibly extreme.

This kind of thing is pointed out so much -- "They're protesting corporations while using their products!" -- that it's become a sort of pet peeve of mine.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: MorleyDev on January 27, 2012, 03:10:47 pm
Quote
Mandatory prohibitions on breaking DRM, even if doing so for a lawful purpose (e.g., to make a work available to disabled people; for archival preservation; because you own the copyrighted work that is locked up with DRM)

...wait, what? 0_o
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 27, 2012, 03:14:53 pm
Quote
Mandatory prohibitions on breaking DRM, even if doing so for a lawful purpose (e.g., to make a work available to disabled people; for archival preservation; because you own the copyrighted work that is locked up with DRM)

...wait, what? 0_o

What the...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: darkrider2 on January 27, 2012, 03:21:23 pm
We need Anonymous to get its act together and start publicizing darknet. We can outrun the aging government.

What is darknet?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: ed boy on January 27, 2012, 04:21:47 pm
Is this even enforceable? I know it would mean getting rid of facebook/youtube/twitter, but I'm more concerned about how ISPs will have to examine everything that passes through their systems. I can't see it being possible to have a connection at even dial-up speeds.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 27, 2012, 04:24:49 pm
Spoiler: From the land of 4chan (click to show/hide)

Europe has begun arresting ACTA protesters
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Tarran on January 27, 2012, 04:42:43 pm
Europe has begun arresting ACTA protesters
Really? What freaking jerks.

Also, the image is 404'd.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: UltraValican on January 27, 2012, 04:43:00 pm
We are boned. So boned. Theres no hope. We can't beat them...
DAMN THEM ALL TO HELL I HOPE EVERY ONE OF THOSE SONS OF BITCHES GETS AN H.B.I FROM THE DARK ONE HIMSELF!
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: MorleyDev on January 27, 2012, 04:46:19 pm
Europe has begun arresting ACTA protesters

All of Europe?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: PTTG?? on January 27, 2012, 04:49:13 pm
Why are they cracking down? They are afraid. Why are they afraid? Because they know that in a fight, they will lose.

Governments are a social structure. When a government is no longer accepted by the people, it can still fight, it can lash out like the dying animal it is, but it cannot win. It cannot force its people to accept it. And without people who accept it, soon, it becomes nothing at all.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 27, 2012, 04:52:04 pm
That is a bold argument, sort of like saying that if a man takes a swing in a fight, he does so because he knows he is going to loose that fight.
Rather, it is a means for winning...

Propaganda has won in the past, and if we let it it could win again.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Itnetlolor on January 27, 2012, 05:02:18 pm
I wonder if the (World) Government really wants World Peace at all? The internet is a gateway for it, and they want to seize it. Why? Because progress =/= profit, I guess.

When are we as a world going to realize that money is just freaking paper, or a few ones and many zeroes (amount of 0's is relative)?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 27, 2012, 05:03:29 pm
Europe has begun arresting ACTA protesters
welp, fuck this government, and fuck those arsewipes that think censoring the internet is good.

I bet they'll all get voted out.

also, protesters get arrested?
and you complain about other dictators doing the same, europe?
hypocrite much?
Europe didn't complain, they were pressured by its citizens to defend people who's human rights were threatened, and proceeded to wage war. Guess what, now it's Europe vs it's citizens. Don't blame us. Also, reports of American websites being taken down, though I cannot confirm this whatsoever, and I believe it to be false.

Also, the image is 404'd.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Supercharazad on January 27, 2012, 05:05:36 pm
If this shit doesn't cause violent rebellion in at least some countries, then fuck this. I have lost all faith in mankind.

Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 27, 2012, 05:15:47 pm
Propaganda has won in the past, and if we let it it could win again.

That's just the thing.  The government needs the support of the people.  They can enforce their will, but that only works up to a point.  The people enforcing that will aren't the presidents and ceos themselves, after all.  They're the guy living just down the street from you, with the patrol cruiser in his driveway.  Those people have to be willing to enforce the rules, which isn't likely if they're going to hate themselves afterwards or their friends or family are going to hate them.

Which is why it's all about propaganda, and silencing the opposition.  Manufacturing consent is easy with a populace that is never exposed to an opposing viewpoint.  Even if everyone has that opposing viewpoint, they have to be able to express it to each other in order to realize that they're not alone.

That's what PTTG is saying.  Governments and corporations realize that if there is enough honest public exposure to this issue, that they will lose.  That's why they're fighting the way they are.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nadaka on January 27, 2012, 05:18:58 pm
http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/01/27/2152219/flaw-in-youtube-takedown-process-exposed

One reason all this copyright enforcement BS is so screwed up. An unsigned band is not able to upload its own original music to youtube because someone else from universal music "accidentally" uploaded it before them.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 27, 2012, 05:33:48 pm
Europe didn't complain, they were pressured by its citizens to defend people who's human rights were threatened, and proceeded to wage war. Guess what, now it's Europe vs it's citizens.
...Is it?  This seems like hyperbole to say the least.

If this shit doesn't cause violent rebellion in at least some countries, then fuck this. I have lost all faith in mankind.
Why should it cause violent rebellion when the majority of people aren't necessarily gonna be affected by ACTA?
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 27, 2012, 05:37:43 pm
Europe didn't complain, they were pressured by its citizens to defend people who's human rights were threatened, and proceeded to wage war. Guess what, now it's Europe vs it's citizens.
...Is it?  This seems like hyperbole to say the least.
Sadly not :(

Although I also agree, I don't see worldwide rebellion over this matter any time soon. What's the point of human rights if humanity is dead :/
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Darvi on January 27, 2012, 05:38:24 pm
Quote from: wikipedia
In November 2008, the Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure (FFII) requested secret Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA) documents from the EU Council, specifically naming 12 documents to be published. The request was denied by the EU council, stating that "disclosure of this information could impede the proper conduct of the negotiations, would weaken the position of the European Union in these negotiations and might affect relations with the third parties concerned".

I read that as "we want to keep all the strings in our hands, so fuck you because we're not going to give you any information that could be used against us.

Also, I wonder who those third parties are.


June? I think that's enough time to sell your soul to the Devil.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 27, 2012, 06:07:14 pm
Sadly not :(

Although I also agree, I don't see worldwide rebellion over this matter any time soon. What's the point of human rights if humanity is dead :/
...Nope, it really is hyperbole.  Firstly because Europe isn't a country and any crackdowns on ACTA protests are fairly localised.  Secondly because the majority of people don't care about ACTA because they don't use the internet that much.  Sure, it might be important to us, but not everyone shares our hobbies.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: JoshuaFH on January 27, 2012, 06:11:24 pm
Sadly not :(

Although I also agree, I don't see worldwide rebellion over this matter any time soon. What's the point of human rights if humanity is dead :/
...Nope, it really is hyperbole.  Firstly because Europe isn't a country and any crackdowns on ACTA protests are fairly localised.  Secondly because the majority of people don't care about ACTA because they don't use the internet that much.  Sure, it might be important to us, but not everyone shares our hobbies.

I think you're thinking too small. If legislation like this goes unopposed, it doesn't just effect the number of people currently existing, it effects everyone that's yet to even come into this world and develop those hobbies.

In other words, all of posterity is threatened by the corruption of those in power.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Leafsnail on January 27, 2012, 06:13:37 pm
Sure, and I am against ACTA, but I can see why most people wouldn't care, and can't really blame them for not caring.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 27, 2012, 06:16:41 pm
Sure, and I am against ACTA, but I can see why most people wouldn't care, and can't really blame them for not caring.

The only excuse I can see would be ignorance.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 27, 2012, 06:26:25 pm
Sure, and I am against ACTA, but I can see why most people wouldn't care, and can't really blame them for not caring.

The only excuse I can see would be ignorance.

Considering this effects so much more than just piracy on the internet, yes.  I think just about everyone should have some reason to care about this thing.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Powder Miner on January 27, 2012, 06:30:45 pm
Why are some of you hoping for violence? I don't get it. Deciding to kill a bunch of people would be worse than ACTA.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 27, 2012, 06:35:02 pm
Why are some of you hoping for violence? I don't get it. Deciding to kill a bunch of people would be worse than ACTA.
>Implies we've been promoting rioting, killing and violence.

Again, awareness is what we're trying to spread.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 27, 2012, 06:37:16 pm
Why are some of you hoping for violence? I don't get it. Deciding to kill a bunch of people would be worse than ACTA.

I don't think anyone has said that they're hoping for violence.  A few have said that they're so overwhelmed by the obvious corruption dominating the world today, that it might come down to that as a last resort.

And it's debatable whether or not that would be worse than ACTA.  It could have very far-reaching implications.  It halts a great deal of humanity's potential, and is guaranteed to enable greater amounts of institutional corruption than we already have, which will lead to a general global increase in suffering.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: MorleyDev on January 27, 2012, 06:40:19 pm
A good government isn't one without corruption, it's one that simply has healthy outlets for it. Corruption is an inevitable result of power, power an inevitable result of society. Basically, we need to get politicians more high-class whores and duck moats.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Frumple on January 27, 2012, 06:46:34 pm
Why are some of you hoping for violence? I don't get it. Deciding to kill a bunch of people would be worse than ACTA.
Because it feels like there's no other option. No other way of getting the point across. Non-violent protest is being ignored or bypassed.

There's also the hope that a little violence now will prevent a lot of violence later. It's never a good thing when civil rights abuses are allowed time to settle in to the bureaucracy and societal norms. That makes getting rid of the abuses that much more difficult. That the abuses in question are intent on damaging what's more or less the best damn invention our species has managed so far just makes things worse.

But of course, as Salmon and Whispers said, if it didn't come to that, everyone involved would be a hell of a lot happier. Pretty much everyone would prefer it if the people in power would stop the stupid shit before the actual people being made into collateral damage by said stupid shit are left with violence is the only recourse. S'just, yanno', some of us aren't seeing the chances of that happening as being very high :-\
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 27, 2012, 06:52:40 pm
There's also the hope that a little violence now will prevent a lot of violence later. It's never a good thing with civil rights abuses are allowed time to settle in to the bureaucracy and societal norms. That makes getting rid of the abuses that much more difficult. That the abuses in question are intent on damaging what's more or less the best damn invention our species has managed so far just makes things worse.

Exactly.  It's not so much about ACTA.  It's about what comes after ACTA.  It's about what corporations and governments will be able to get away with after they gain even more control over information than they already have, more ability to claim legal ownership of anything they feel like, and more ways to legally destroy anyone they feel like.

I love my file sharing, but I wouldn't kill over it.  That's not a life and death matter.  But there's a lot of other implications to consider with things like ACTA that really are.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 27, 2012, 06:58:25 pm
*Sips glass of rum*
And so it is, that the information age comes to its knees and rioting and violence become the voice of the common man, when everything else has turned a blind eye. And what bought about this state of anarchy? Not kings, nor generals, nor gods themselves, but the very information we prized, being covenanted by those that see it as not enlightenment, but a commodity.


What? Somebody has to narrate and I don't see why it can't be me.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: MorleyDev on January 27, 2012, 07:03:45 pm
And so it is, that the information age comes to its knees and rioting and violence become the voice of the common man, when everything else has turned a blind eye. And what bought about this state of anarchy? Not kings, nor generals, nor gods themselves, but the very information we prized, being covenanted by those that see it as not enlightenment, but a commodity.[/i]

Totally read this in Morgan Freeman's voice xD
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: scriver on January 27, 2012, 07:05:42 pm
You can't narrate because you don't know what words you are using, Max.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Aqizzar on January 27, 2012, 07:11:37 pm
And so it is, that the information age comes to its knees and rioting and violence become the voice of the common man, when everything else has turned a blind eye. And what bought about this state of anarchy? Not kings, nor generals, nor gods themselves, but the very information we prized, being covenanted by those that see it as not enlightenment, but a commodity.[/i]

Totally read this in Morgan Freeman's voice xD

That's infringement.  Criminal.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Darvi on January 27, 2012, 07:12:06 pm
And so it is, that the information age comes to its knees and rioting and violence become the voice of the common man, when everything else has turned a blind eye. And what bought about this state of anarchy? Not kings, nor generals, nor gods themselves, but the very information we prized, being covenanted by those that see it as not enlightenment, but a commodity.[/i]

Totally read this in Morgan Freeman's voice xD
Get out of my mind.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: King DZA on January 27, 2012, 09:09:44 pm
Neat, A little more time in this thread, and I should be able to meet my weekly depression quota.

Then again, I'd be lying if I said I didn't get excited just wondering about what happens next. That slight increase in heart rate that tells me there's a possibility of something big happening is something I've been feeling quite a lot lately. Not that I like ACTA, of course. But it sure as hell has the potential to mix things up a bit.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: NobodyPro on January 27, 2012, 09:17:23 pm
And so it is, that the information age comes to its knees and rioting and violence become the voice of the common man, when everything else has turned a blind eye. And what bought about this state of anarchy? Not kings, nor generals, nor gods themselves, but the very information we prized, being covenanted by those that see it as not enlightenment, but a commodity.[/i]

Totally read this in Morgan Freeman's voice xD
Ron Perlman for me.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: MorleyDev on January 27, 2012, 09:23:38 pm
And so it is, that the information age comes to its knees and rioting and violence become the voice of the common man, when everything else has turned a blind eye. And what bought about this state of anarchy? Not kings, nor generals, nor gods themselves, but the very information we prized, being covenanted by those that see it as not enlightenment, but a commodity.[/i]

Totally read this in Morgan Freeman's voice xD
Ron Perlman for me.

Now I keep switching between Ron Perlman and Morgan Freeman. I have never been so confused, and yet so aroused...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Max White on January 27, 2012, 09:26:04 pm
Maybe I can help you out a little...

War. War never changes...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Nadaka on January 27, 2012, 09:59:58 pm
Maybe I can help you out a little...

War. War never changes...

Oh man. Perlman can make or break a movie with that voice. Every seen the movie "Mutant Chronicles"? Without the voiceover, that movie is horrible. And with it, it is actually kinda cool.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: darkrider2 on January 27, 2012, 10:10:57 pm
Control the media, control the mind.

Yay, lets remove the last standing good source of information the world has, and turn it into another profit venue.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Fniff on January 27, 2012, 10:18:22 pm
Totally off-topic, but humorous.

>Read thread in unread posts.
>Read first post
>Oh fuck, the government went wild and made super–SOPA!
>See Lord Dullard leaving
>Oh shit! He's such a cool guy!
>Send heartfelt PM to LD
>Find he comes back later. Breath sigh of relief, then laugh at myself.
>Read intently.
>Realize thread was made in 2009.
>I'm an idiot.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Powder Miner on January 27, 2012, 11:14:16 pm
Can you give me a list of sources? A guy  on another forums I go to is convicned that ACTA is far better than SOPA and all that it does is prevent inter-country trade for pirating.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Tarran on January 27, 2012, 11:19:45 pm
If you can understand it, here's the treaty itself. (http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/assets/pdfs/acta-crc_apr15-2011_eng.pdf)
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Powder Miner on January 27, 2012, 11:24:03 pm
That will help nothing -.-
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: darkrider2 on January 27, 2012, 11:48:29 pm
I tried to read that thing but holy shit.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Lord Dullard on January 28, 2012, 01:12:36 am
Jeez, I forgot this thread even existed.

...well, a bit overdo, I guess, but:

I TOLD YOU SO.  :D

Heh. Just kidding.

Though, frankly, this doesn't surprise me at all, since I've pretty much given up any hope of government(s) acting reasonable or responsible. With any luck an organized response similar to the one leveled against SOPA could work, I suppose...
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Heron TSG on January 28, 2012, 01:33:33 am
And so it is, that the information age comes to its knees and rioting and violence become the voice of the common man, when everything else has turned a blind eye. And what bought about this state of anarchy? Not kings, nor generals, nor gods themselves, but the very information we prized, being covenanted by those that see it as not enlightenment, but a commodity.[/i]
Totally read this in Morgan Freeman's voice xD
That's infringement.  Criminal.
Having spent much of the day reading up on Orwell, I read Aqizzar's post as:

That THOUGHTCRIME. Report.

I'm not sure if it's worse that it's applicable or that I'm starting to read Oldspeak normal English in Newspeak today.
Title: Re: Secret copyright treaty leaked. It's not good.
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 28, 2012, 08:48:30 am
Control the media, control the mind.

Yay, lets remove the last standing good source of information the world has, and turn it into another profit venue.

“I became a journalist because I did not want to rely on newspapers for information.”  ~ Christopher Hitches