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Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: Mephansteras on January 08, 2010, 01:39:31 pm

Title: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: Mephansteras on January 08, 2010, 01:39:31 pm
Listening to Talk #6 and the subject on the abstraction of tools and such for crafting items, I thought of a solution.

The example in the talk was making a chair and how it would take a dwarf a month just to gather up all of the boards and nails and whatnot to do the job.

What if workshops contained internal stockpiles for tools and necessary components? So the Carpenter's shop would have hammers and saws and nails and glues and varnishes and whatnot. What you could create would depend on what resources you had available. A crude chair held together with wooden pegs would be easy to make but worth little. A masterwork chair would require more advanced tools, varnishes/stains/whatever.

As far as getting all the items to the workshop that could be fairly easy to automate. Say your blacksmith creates a bunch of nails. The game can then check to see if any in-workshop stockpiles need more nails before finding a generic stockpile to stick them in. A peasant then runs over and sticks the nails in a bucket and takes them to wherever they're needed as a stack (possibly splitting them up between workshops).

This only works once stacking and hauling is improved, but I think it could be done eventually without adding much more micromanagement. Especially if some of the more intelligent Job Manager ideas get implemented (like ordering all components for an object to be created if they are missing).
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: zwei on January 08, 2010, 02:03:50 pm
I'd rather keep it simple and make use of existing mechanics:

Woodcutter workshop would simply take one "carpentry toolset" (made by metalsmith) to make in adition to current materials, just like anvil is pecial ingedient for certain workshops, anything made in wokshop would be considered to make with toolset.

Or, dwarf with carpentry would simply carry toolset with him in backpack/pockets just like woodcutter carries axe or miner carries pickaxe.

It would add only small hassle, only to make sure you have tools, but that is one off thing and would actually be kinda cool: one more thing to consider when embarking, one more thing to do in moderatelly grown fortress.
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: Nogford on January 08, 2010, 05:00:04 pm
I would like something similar to this. All workshops should take more materials to construct....I never quite understood how one stone could be used to make an entire kitchen for example.
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: Impaler[WrG] on January 08, 2010, 07:25:32 pm
Tool sets specific to each job sound like a poor idea, we'd have nearly a dozen different sets which is unnecessarily complex when a simple set of tools (knife, saw, hammer, tongs, shears) would be enough for cover the needed tool diversity
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: Footkerchief on January 08, 2010, 11:17:24 pm
Here are some other suggestions about having specific tools/hardware and storing them in workshops:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=5950.0
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=27214.msg328477#msg328477
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=28276.msg355551#msg355551
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=4533.msg62385#msg62385
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=5926.msg74380#msg74380

Hopefully that will help contextualize the discussion.
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: KenboCalrissian on January 09, 2010, 12:45:18 am
Remind me why we need to build toolkits?  All you're adding is another step to the process, thereby making it more tedious.

Think of any game where you put resources together to create a unit - for sake of argument, I'm going to use a Elven Archer from Warcraft 2.  It costs 500 gold and 50 lumber to create the archer, but you don't need to find a bowstring before you can train the sucker.  Has anyone ever complained about this?

Yes, DF is a simulator, and some level of realism is expected.  But come on!  You don't think dwarves don't inherently know to bring along their tools when they embark?  Why do you want to pay more points for something that's required of you to bring before you can build anything?  What's a player to do if they forget to bring the toolkit?  How do you build a toolkit without any tools?
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 09, 2010, 01:07:55 am
Bootstrapping?
(eduguesses based on fiction)
Knap flint.
Cut vines and sticks and grasses to get shafts and fibers.
Affix flint to sticks in various manners to make knives, spears, axes.
Cut down trees with axe.
Use knife to sharpen stick for use as a firestarter, also hollow a bit out of your target for fire.
Use fibers and sharp stick to start fire by friction, using the fibers to spin the stick.
(/eduguesses)

(Alternately, find copper, beat copper into the rough shape you want with a rock- it's malleable enough to need no heating to work, and find a good rough stone to sharpen your edges with.)

Anyway, once you have fire and sharp stuff, most of it is using (tool) to make (better tool). I'm fuzzy on the details.

I kind of agree with toady that it probably shouldn't normally be necessary to have tools in Dwarfmode, but being able to use them carried-around to not need workshops in fortmode would be a nice feature.
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: Murphy on January 09, 2010, 01:50:52 am
Sure, if there are no tools, we may always imagine they are there. It would just be an abstraction. But then you can't have masterwork tools affecting your work quality and time consumption.

EDIT: I hasten to add, dwarves should mostly be able to work without any tools. The work then would just be slower, or more crude.
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: Athisus on January 09, 2010, 02:31:10 am
Quote
How do you build a toolkit without any tools?

Might I remind you that the world was not made with tools included. There was no primordial toolbox that dropped out of the sky that all other tools owe their heritage to.
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: KenboCalrissian on January 10, 2010, 02:19:18 am
Quote from: Athisus on January 09, 2010, 02:31:10 am
Quote
How do you build a toolkit without any tools?

Might I remind you that the world was not made with tools included. There was no primordial toolbox that dropped out of the sky that all other tools owe their heritage to.

No need to remind me, because this doesn't really answer the question you're referencing.

Cobalt was closer to diffusing my point with an explanation of how tools are created.  I guess the question is whether we really want to start users off with nothing but sticks and stones and make them build up until they create adequate tools they could use to cobble a chair together.

It's like the "advance tech level over time" argument, but in reverse.  I could see it providing an additional survival challenge to hardcore players, but for the casual gamer it's unnecessary - and, let's be honest, the challenge provided is only briefly present in the very beginning, and then it's gone and you never have to worry about it again.  Not enough substance.

Additionally, think of how this affects the early game.  In Vanilla, you more or less have one year (give or take a few, depending on circumstances) to build a functioning, defensible fort before you start getting ambushes.  When you throw in an obstacle like requiring a tool to be created before you get early work done, this makes it harder to get the fort up and running within that window, meaning you'd likely also have to rebalance ambushes.

Now, somewhere I saw a suggestion for a portable toolkit that allows the user to build a construction on the spot it was designated (it's in one of the threads Footkerchief listed).  This is an idea I could get behind.  It's a small investment to create a reasonably sized persistent reward, and I don't think it's enough to make the game too easy.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: CobaltKobold on January 10, 2010, 02:41:03 am
What I think is that tools should be makable, be usable in fort mode either to
a. construct a workshop without other materials (as another option, rather than required)
b. do a normally workshop-only job without a workshop (would require some new menu items?)

Since you're going to have some case where you have an adv-mode 'only' tool showing up in dwarfmode somehow.
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: kalida99 on January 10, 2010, 02:45:25 am
Perhaps you could just start off with a small tool kit that had basic versions of the tools?

Hatchets rather than battle axes, cut wood slightly slower and not as good in combat (Cheaper as well).
Smaller picks (prospecting picks), that dig slower but are cheaper.

It would lump simple essentials into one item so newbies don't wonder why they might not be able to cut wood, but also upgradable to increase production. Also cheaper than it would be to buy the Individual specialist tools. While also increasing the number of items you can bring at the start after removing that 300 pt axe from embark

Maybe add in the ability to build tools for certain professions, and people? Chisels for engravers and masons, hammers for smiths, measuring cups for cooks, and brewers, Etc Not doing much else than increasing quality and speed of production. Maybe upgrade the workshop as a whole to assist anyone using it
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: dakenho on January 10, 2010, 09:50:45 am
Quote from: Athisus on January 09, 2010, 02:31:10 am
Quote
How do you build a toolkit without any tools?

Might I remind you that the world was not made with tools included. There was no primordial toolbox that dropped out of the sky that all other tools owe their heritage to.
hu so that is where the first anvil came from
late in the midnight sky a oddly shaped meteor falls from the sky
urist mcnoname:  "Hey whats that , that fell out of the sky"
urist theotherdwarf:  "lets go look"
urst mcnoname GASPS, "this...this goblin is dead, crushed by this weird, metal...thing.  Who would do something so horrible to such a peaceful civilization?:
urist theoderdwarf searches the dead goblins body "Its hard to read his papers and the only thing i could make out is anvil..that must be his name".
urist thefirstdwarf "than we shall name this strange thing after this poor goblin, let us go now and bring this "anvil" to the king"

meanwhile a goblin had noticed the dwarfs standing over something and had a look after they left

ug thestupid:  "my god, those dwarfs killed this man with that thing they called an "anivl" this, this is war,  I must start collecting ambush partys to raid there supply's and ask our mace-lord to lead a glorious charge on that nearby dwarf out post,  we will see how much of a "fortress" it really is".

Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: dakenho on January 10, 2010, 10:02:04 am
I must say I kind of agree with tools, it does not complicate things in the least to include.

carpenters tools
fish cleaner tools
ect ect ect
in your embark.

now there is a big problem with materials to make things (like beds)
in that there is as vast list of supply's needed.
such as
planks and misc wood piece's
nails,
glue,
varnish
paint,
the little rubberthings that go on the legs,

while work shops can have there own private stock piles built in (which would be great) there is no motivation to make a chair out of wood at this point espically when you can make one out of stone.
 
one already needs to large of a percent of his/her population for hauling materials as it is, this adds a huge amount of logistical strain on a fortress (nearly half if not 3/4 of my population is haulers and they can barley keep up as it is).  for a dwarf to run around and also drop off all this extra stuff is a bit much.

with all said in this thread though, this is a kick ass idea but there would be some serious changes that would need to be made to the game

1.  dwarfs will need a hauling change (ie dwarfs will no longer carry 1 seed at a time type deal)
2.  using beasts of burden to help transport items

this part of the post is rated D for dwarf

I had always imagined that dwarfs simply carve out a log for a bed \_/  would kind of look like that but more curved.

Chairs are chizeled out of logs much like a chair is chizeled out of stone

bins are just lidless hollowed logs

barrles are hollowed out like beds but horizontally

|_|  like that

...tools are for humans
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: Foehamster on January 10, 2010, 12:18:46 pm
This seems more complex that it should be.  Increase the number of materials to build a workshop, fine.  How about when you build a workshop the tools are built along with the various worktables and shelves as well?

Or DF dwarves automatically and in a superfast manner procure all survivalist tools (branch + small rock + grass = most anything) they need to build run basic workshop?  Immigrants would bring appropriate tools to do their job. Ever hear of a carpenter who didn't have his own tools?

One final thing.  All wooden furniture is not inferior to nailed/metal fastened furniture.  The only reason you see nails/screws in modern wooden furniture is that it requires less labor to build them that way.
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: Silverionmox on January 10, 2010, 02:02:21 pm
I'd prefer real tool requirements above generic ones. I think tools for the legendary craftsdwarves are just as important as weapons for the legendary weapon lords.

All tools could have a tag for the job category they are useful for. Eg. the 'hammer' entry would get [woodworking][smithing][masonry] tags. Jobs done without an appropriate tool would be slow and can't yield better than minimal quality. Jobs done with appropriate tools would go faster and deliver better quality. There should be a function with diminishing returns on adding more tools. You could assign tools to workshops, and craftsdwarves could claim tools for themselves; when they work in the workshop, they would use the best of both if there were doubles.

For the vanilla two or three tools for a job would be normal. You would then bring general, multipurpose tools at embark (hammers, axes, grinding stones, etc.) and get or make the specialized ones (astrolabes, lenses, ear scoops, etc.) later.

Furniture doesn't need to be complicated, let's assume the standard items are the most basic functional forms. A bed can be made from wood only. Varnish, paint and the little rubber circles underneath belong in the decoration category. Some things like spikes on weapons might also add functionality.
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: zwei on January 10, 2010, 03:25:18 pm
Quote from: Foehamster on January 10, 2010, 12:18:46 pm
Immigrants would bring appropriate tools to do their job. Ever hear of a carpenter who didn't have his own tools?

I like this, immigrant that has his chosen trade bringing his tools would be nice touch. And you could always get off dwarf who comes without tools or who comes with masterpiece chisel.

Also, basic tools could be given for "free" to embark dwarves who are past novice.

This would remove much of hassle when embarking - you can not "forget" to take tools.

---

I support tool ideas because:

- as said, if you have tools, you can have dwarf masterpiece tools, and all the nice interactions. And not mentioning artifact tools ...
- since adventurer mode is going to have them, they are going find their way to fortress mode anyway, and it would be weird if caravan brings saw and none of your carpenters is interested and continues to make chairs by chewing away the excess wood off log.
- more fun potential, more "oh crap, my jewelcrafter fell to river and drowned, i have to recover his grinding stone!".
- as said, to craftsman, his tools are very important. even today: i could write code in notepad and compile with commandline javac, but i use eclipse and ant because those are apropriate tools.
- producing quality tools for everyone is nice side goal for developed fortress or when attempting megaconstruction.

This gives potential for cool scenarios: older dwarf giving his tools to his son to continue family trade/son inheriting it and getting happy though when allowed to take on his ancestors trade to use it. Blacksmith ending his apprenticeship by creating his own toolset. Particulary evil mason murdering his coleague just to get his artefact tools (or, just plainly stealing them). Engravings of McUrist and his trusty fishing pole which he nicknamed "carpkiller".

Craftsman does not necesarily have to require tools to work, but he should not be exactly happy with that setup, nor should he work effectivelly/have quality output without them. I'd expect your 20 newly appointed masons to at least form union/guild and refuse to work with just bare hands.

Oh, and anyone who does "home improvement" thing can tell you that having tools is damned important :).
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: Pilsu on January 10, 2010, 04:31:21 pm
The embark bit is a non-issue, the game should just warn you if you're trying to embark with no seeds, food, drink, tools etc. Individual warnings could be turned off in the init

You don't need a grinding stone to setup an outpost. Having fancy things would probably just remove quality limits, make work faster or whatever works. Extending the list of what is already mandatory just makes sense. Mind you, the game should let us choose the item material. And needless to say, you don't want copper tools even if they're cheap


Felling trees with a hatchet would be a pain in the ass, as would tilling a field with a pick so penalties for not bringing a proper set of tools should be significant
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: Detoxicated on January 10, 2010, 07:02:28 pm
I dont know, i can see the entire tool thing working out well... Let's say you'd give granted tools to the beginning player, he then can create better tools with his crude tools... This would start out like this:
e.g.: Carpenters Workshop: You start with a wooden hammer, then you build a better hammer with your hammer and some rocks, then you use that better hammer to create an even better hammer made of iron, then steel, adamantium etc... the quality of the hammer is determined by the material (which opens new options once you have a better material hammer) and also by the skill of the toolmaker (which would increase efficency of the tool in terms of speed. This way you could have a hammer which is extremely fast but can only access certain items. (Say an exceptional woodhammer)

With exceptional tools of exceptional material you'd occassionally create a minor artifact, which isnt as powerful as an artifact but better than a regular magnificient version of the item.

In terms of things like nails and such, i think it could be quite awesome, but they would have to be produced quickly, say you create 100 nails with one go, but they act as one portion... i dont know how likely this would work but i imagine it like this:

Create Nails: would produce 100 nails, but you would need a bucket for it. All the bucket does is count the items within so the cpu doesnt freeze, these buckets would immediatly be brought to workshops that use these kinds of tools.

I also like the idea of an inventory of the workshops... These would be filled by the hauling dwarves, and could be altered to ones need (for instance you decide what kind of woods, or nails youd want, this is useful if you want a legendary forge, carpentry etc.)
Title: Re: Dwarf Mode workshops and tools
Post by: Tiny on January 10, 2010, 11:34:37 pm
I really like the idea of having more tools in the game, the post by Zwei above covers many of the points I'd make on this.

Many jobs the would use tools can be done with just rocks, ie:-
   
Having metal casting would get around the problem of needing tools to make tools, as casting requires few if any tools and can be used to make most metal tools. Forging should produce much better weapons, armour, toios and fine crafts, whereas casting would be the sensible way to make large things like anvils and statues (in fact forging an anvil would be almost impossible, and it wouldn't be as good).