Bay 12 Games Forum
Other Projects => Curses => Topic started by: Kay12 on February 17, 2010, 03:20:01 am
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Greetings fellow L+iberals (and you too, C+onservative Swine)
I've managed to L+iberalize the country with a guitar-hippie-sleeperspam group and an AK47-violence group. Now I'm trying something a bit different...
IT'S THE PASSIVE RESISTANCE SQUAD! (Aka Liberal Gandhi Squad)
In practise this is an extra challenge with rules to mimic our beloved Liberal Gandhi's passive resistance.
This means that raiding sites is no longer permitted. Sites can only be entered to recruit new people - wrecking machines, stealing stuff, pushing the button and especially killing and kidnapping is forbidden. No picking locks either. Guitars are not allowed as conversion tools - the PRS trusts in the people's own judgement.
The PRS will also not resort to any kind of illegal fundraising. All money has to be earned with pride and honesty - music, art, t-shirts and donations are all acceptable, as is making clothes. Since the PRS want to follow in the footsteps of Gandhi, they won't wear fancy suits, but rather simple togas. The PRS hates cars and won't drive them.
How does the PRS intend to advocate Liberalism then? Simple. Liberal Activism and community service are allowed, and so are writing to newspapers and running one's own. Website harassment, graffiti and hacking are also allowed, but none of the files acquired can be sold - they must be published or just left to be. Vandalism on site is banned because of possible violent consequences.
PRS allows sleepers in their organization, but they must stick to legal actions. They are allowed to wear non-toga clothing.
In case any PRS members are being chased, they must give up. Even if that means certain death. The same applies to being raided. Even Gandhi got beat up several times. He didn't run - he stood there bravely.
Now, what do you reckon? Has anyone done something similar before, and has anyone succeeded at L+iberalizing the country with something like this? And is it even possible?
Suggestions and wise heartful thoughts are welcome.
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I'd say drop hacking too seems a little aggressive to me.
I have no idea if you'll manage to win with these rules but do keep us updated with your progress as it sounds like a fun challenge.
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I'd say drop hacking too seems a little aggressive to me.
I have no idea if you'll manage to win with these rules but do keep us updated with your progress as it sounds like a fun challenge.
Ok, that shall I do. Hacking is vandalism too.
Sadly, I think that's the only thing that could've earned respectable juice for these guys.
EDIT: Just started the game, got a bunch of hippies to run a newspaper while the founder makes portraits and funds the newspaper. Sadly, the first congress/senate election went conservative. Maybe it'll go better next time. Meanwhile, I suppose I could get some programmers to PWN websites!
MOAR EDIT: The next elections went a lot better: L president and Liberal congress and senate victories. Huzzah!
MOAR MOAR EDIT: The elite liberal amendment passed in Sep 2016 resulting in an elite liberal congress and senate. This is far easier than I thought!
MOAR MOAR MOAR EDIT: The other elite liberal amendment passed too. This is even easier than guitar squadding!
MOAR MOAR MOAR MOAR EDIT: Ok, won the game. That was way easier than I thought. My leader had initially stats and skills fit for a lawyer, recruited hippies to the cap and had them write for the Guardian. Then he sprayed graffiti, and whenever caught, defended himself in the court. He also financed all operations by selling portaits. In the end he had about 200 juice. Possibly the weakest leader I've ever had, but ah, still so strong! Perhaps I should try again in conservative nightmare mode. Death squads can be a problem though.
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...and now we know that violence is not the best answer?
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...and now we know that violence is not the best answer?
But it sure is the most fun ;D
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Kay12, you should be send to China immediately :)
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Chinese Conservatives have more advanced counter-measures(and are willing to go further) against peaceful measures then American Conservatives...
Else the LGS woulda won years ago.
Kay12 would just be another guy in some remote area. :P
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Or dead. Don't forget dead.
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This is oddly enough my usual tactics. Leader works up persuade/seduce, generally recruits a lot of football coaches, who all try to recruit hippies/liberal judges/programmers/lawyers/random sleepers from sites i need files from.
Judges/lawyers make great writers. Programmers/sleepers get them material to write about. Hippies supply me cash through music/arts, and all my charisma based people get me donations. Worked especially well in the old version where the CCS would only appear after you hit the headlines.
Having a nice friendly chat with the jury/theft gets me most of my juice.
...and now we know that violence is not the best answer?
And knowing is half the battle. That we're not going to have, because we're non violent.
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Worked especially well in the old version where the CCS would only appear after you hit the headlines.
It didn't bother me much here, as the CCS didn't ever find me. A couple of hits and the people hated them. They just made matters worse for themselves.
The hard part is nightmare start though. Journalists/authors and programmers are seldom available because they're all conservative bastards, so the majority the recruits have to be hippies who are readily available. Possibly a computer wiz start so I can start by defacing websites and once the C sentiment lowers a bit I can move on to graffiti. Death Squads make graffiti not-so-good idea, and it's very possible to get a death penalty from graffiti if caught by someone else if DP laws are C+.
EDIT: This is way too easy even on nightmare start. Community service made my Liberal Media People popular, then once the DP laws were loosened a bit my founder started making graffiti. The rest is Liberal History.
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I've done this in Toady's version. With the current version I haven't yet.
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I've done this in Toady's version. With the current version I haven't yet.
I have beaten it three times (classic, nonclassic and nightmare nonclassic) and now I'm about to beat active CCS start too... has been hard only on nightmare. Too easy.
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BTW, don't Ghandhi followers use music to sway people to their cause. Admittedly, yes, Guitar squads would make the challenge too easy, but it fits the FLAVOUR, doesn't it?
Also, I'm not sure if Ghandhi would allow his followers to perform grafitti. IIRC he didn't believe in DP.
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BTW, don't Ghandhi followers use music to sway people to their cause. Admittedly, yes, Guitar squads would make the challenge too easy, but it fits the FLAVOUR, doesn't it?
Also, I'm not sure if Ghandhi would allow his followers to perform grafitti. IIRC he didn't believe in DP.
Guitas would make this way too easy. Graffiti does so too, so maybe I'll drop it too the next time. Any idea on how much writing/writers is needed for the Liberal Guardian to start doing some real damage against the C+ ideology?
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From what I can tell of the way the game works... there are 2 possibilities for specific challenges:
a)There is a list of actions that will win you the game. Perform these actions and repeat ad nauseum.
b) There is no way to win the game.
Thus, there is very little "Easy" or "Hard" to challenges. Either they are winnable, or they are not winnable.
This is why some people love combat and fighting so much. It really adds a huge level of randomness to the game. It's actually "false difficulty" as explained on TVTropes, but whatever.
But anyhow, my point is, either you create a challenge which pits you at the mercy of the random number generator... or you create a challenge which is a "puzzle". If you create a puzzle, then the only challenge is figuring out the solution... once you have done that, the actual implementation of this solution is fairly easy.
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The difficulty of combat in LCS is not the difficulty of getting lucky enough to never get shot (which would be false difficulty), but the difficulty of knowing what situations are most likely to work in your favor instead of against you, and of being able to deal with having your folks get shot when the RNG doesn't like you. Because the situation is changing, and you don't always get your way, your strategy has to constantly adapt. The better you can adapt, the more you can succeed.
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Well, anyhow, my point still stands. No, wait, let me modify it:
a) Game is winnable. Once you figure out *how* to win it, then any challenge is "easy".
b) Game is unwinnable.
c) Game depends on luck to win. You are at the mercy of RNG.
So, I think Kay12 will always find the challenges to be too easy....
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How does the PRS intend to advocate Liberalism then? Simple. Liberal Activism and community service are allowed, and so are writing to newspapers and running one's own. Website harassment, graffiti and hacking are also allowed, but none of the files acquired can be sold - they must be published or just left to be. Vandalism on site is banned because of possible violent consequences.
OK, I have to ask... so, how did you manage to influence the *issues*? Like, for me, when CEO salaries went to 54% due to some article glamourising lifestyles of the rich and famous, all I had to do was send in a Sword Squad to chop up everyone inside. The next day, an article was printed about it, and bam, everything was back to 100%. But, I can't see how to do this with your Ghandi squad. What do you do to raise liberality of specific issues?
Also, how does the guitar squad strategy go? Heard of it a lot, but no idea what it involves.
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How does the PRS intend to advocate Liberalism then? Simple. Liberal Activism and community service are allowed, and so are writing to newspapers and running one's own. Website harassment, graffiti and hacking are also allowed, but none of the files acquired can be sold - they must be published or just left to be. Vandalism on site is banned because of possible violent consequences.
OK, I have to ask... so, how did you manage to influence the *issues*? Like, for me, when CEO salaries went to 54% due to some article glamourising lifestyles of the rich and famous, all I had to do was send in a Sword Squad to chop up everyone inside. The next day, an article was printed about it, and bam, everything was back to 100%. But, I can't see how to do this with your Ghandi squad. What do you do to raise liberality of specific issues?
Also, how does the guitar squad strategy go? Heard of it a lot, but no idea what it involves.
Graffiti. It's what rocked the country during my Gandhi games. But it can't be targeted, meaning you'll just have to be persistent.
And the guitar strategy works like this: you train up a squad of musical heroes, have them convert respected conservatives like CEOs and News People and recruit them as sleepers. I mostly also raep the studio/mic all over again if it's close to the exit. That's probably the best raid there is.
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So when your LCS draws grafitti as a liberal activity, it effects issues? COOL. BTW, wouldn't manually drawing grafitti on sites during raids be able to target issues?
So, your musical heroes, you somehow have to get them to 1000 juice, right?
Then after that you train them up to have music 20 via... do you play music at enemies to do this, or do you just sell music? hmm?
And how would you convert a CEO, ok, you could turn him liberal, but then you still could not successfully talk to them about the issues since their business skill is so high and you can't get business skill since you have low wisdom. ... I suppose you could seduce them or something though? Hmm. I'm assuming it's easier to seduce Liberals than conservatives? I haven't quite figured out the seduction mechanic.
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I've talked to security guards and agents that have come back for a talk (After trying to shoot me) and they have accepted. Though conservatives are crap for everything but killing because if arrested 75% rat you out due to high wisdom.
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killing or being turned into sleepers
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So when your LCS draws grafitti as a liberal activity, it effects issues? COOL. BTW, wouldn't manually drawing grafitti on sites during raids be able to target issues?
The multi-day murals are what affects the issues when you do graffiti from the activation screen, but when you do site actions, you're only spending a combat round quickly tagging the walls. Graffiti on site is there for a combination of flavor, and giving you a relatively safe way to increase a small attack's newsworthiness a bit.
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How does the PRS intend to advocate Liberalism then? Simple. Liberal Activism and community service are allowed, and so are writing to newspapers and running one's own. Website harassment, graffiti and hacking are also allowed, but none of the files acquired can be sold - they must be published or just left to be. Vandalism on site is banned because of possible violent consequences.
OK, I have to ask... so, how did you manage to influence the *issues*? Like, for me, when CEO salaries went to 54% due to some article glamourising lifestyles of the rich and famous, all I had to do was send in a Sword Squad to chop up everyone inside. The next day, an article was printed about it, and bam, everything was back to 100%. But, I can't see how to do this with your Ghandi squad. What do you do to raise liberality of specific issues?
Also, how does the guitar squad strategy go? Heard of it a lot, but no idea what it involves.
Writing affects all issues.
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So when your LCS draws grafitti as a liberal activity, it effects issues? COOL. BTW, wouldn't manually drawing grafitti on sites during raids be able to target issues?
So, your musical heroes, you somehow have to get them to 1000 juice, right?
Then after that you train them up to have music 20 via... do you play music at enemies to do this, or do you just sell music? hmm?
And how would you convert a CEO, ok, you could turn him liberal, but then you still could not successfully talk to them about the issues since their business skill is so high and you can't get business skill since you have low wisdom. ... I suppose you could seduce them or something though? Hmm. I'm assuming it's easier to seduce Liberals than conservatives? I haven't quite figured out the seduction mechanic.
Guitars are basically weapons that convert conservative targets by swelling their heart. Recruiting CEOs will still be hard after conversion, because low juice people are generally bad at convincing even liberal CEOs. Business skill has no impact here, but persuasion does. I'm not sure about the seduction part, but at least liberal CEOs won't give you lessons of life (wisdom) on dates.
For training music, I recommend playing street music with guitars BEFORE doing anything criminal until your six musical people have their music skill at about 12-15. After this you should be able to disable small encounters with ease and convert people to liberal routinely. For musicians, I recommend recruiting hippies - they have high heart and usually some nice utility skills. If you don't have these on your leader, try to have first aid, driving, security and any other skills you like and would like to have. Music isn't all that important - it's very easy to train. A tailor is also handy, since disguises can make the difference when going for that button/studio/mic, but note that it's not always necessary and if you have the perfect group otherwise you can just release some oppressed sweatshop worker to be your garment maker.
Acquiring juice is necessary to start routinely succeeding at recruiting converts, and the best way to do it used to be jury raiding, but now it only gives juice to one liberal. Nuclear plant gives very good juice (push the buh push the buh push the button!) but also an impressive rap sheet. Factory vandalism is pretty safe, especially in the later game (there are very few non-liberals around) - just make sure you get out before the cops get in. You could go for the cosmetics plant as well. The juice gains aren't that impressive, though.
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(push the buh push the buh push the button!) but also an impressive rap sheet.
So, rapping as you do stuff gives you a rap sheet? :)
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Yeah, and spreading your bullets gives you a spreadsheet!
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MOAR MOAR MOAR MOAR EDIT: Ok, won the game. That was way easier than I thought. My leader had initially stats and skills fit for a lawyer, recruited hippies to the cap and had them write for the Guardian. Then he sprayed graffiti, and whenever caught, defended himself in the court. He also financed all operations by selling portaits. In the end he had about 200 juice. Possibly the weakest leader I've ever had, but ah, still so strong! Perhaps I should try again in conservative nightmare mode. Death squads can be a problem though.
How did you get your leader to 200 juice? Don't legal actions have a juice cap of 50 or something?
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MOAR MOAR MOAR MOAR EDIT: Ok, won the game. That was way easier than I thought. My leader had initially stats and skills fit for a lawyer, recruited hippies to the cap and had them write for the Guardian. Then he sprayed graffiti, and whenever caught, defended himself in the court. He also financed all operations by selling portaits. In the end he had about 200 juice. Possibly the weakest leader I've ever had, but ah, still so strong! Perhaps I should try again in conservative nightmare mode. Death squads can be a problem though.
How did you get your leader to 200 juice? Don't legal actions have a juice cap of 50 or something?
Indiscriminate liberation of the yoke of life on a massive scale in the crack houses.
EDIT: Oh right... Ghandi squad... and legal? Nevermind that.
Could be the Graffiti, I never do that myself.... but that could be it. A slow process.
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Talk to the jury. Seems to affect the issues, and is heaps of juice, persuasion, and law. And every now and again a foot to the face.
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I got the juice through graffiti, though it's abysmally slow compared to raiding. I didn't talk to juries (I restricted raiding for recruiting purposes only) and besides, it only juices up one member nowadays.
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oh, grafitti juice isn't capped at 50 anymore?
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I guess not, since I kept getting juice from it even after 200... has it ever been capped? I've never used graffiti before.
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I believe graffiti juice is only partially capped at 50. Gains just slow down a crawl after that. Lots of skill training works that way too, so, for example, you should be able to train music to 20 from the activation screen, it'll just take a really long time.
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Does defending self in court provide juice? It could be also partially responsible.
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Does defending self in court provide juice? It could be also partially responsible.
It probably should. You're doing something no Conservative drone would do.
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Oh yes, just won my first game with a truly Gandhi squad - no graffiti, website harassment. Basically the only illegal thing still allowed is liberal disobedience. I picked the choices for my recruiter that game good INT/CHA/HRT and had him seduce as many Liberal Judges as possible. They have HRT and INT, and make very very good writers. Then I just collected donations for my liberal media company, started publishing the liberal guardian and waited for the issues to be affected.
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I believe murals give a small amount of uncapped juice. I think when you complete a multi-day mural you get like 10 juice or something.
What I find amusing is using guitar squads in car chases :D
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I believe murals give a small amount of uncapped juice. I think when you complete a multi-day mural you get like 10 juice or something.
Not 10 juice per multi-day mural, a lot less. A point or two uncapped, based on my limited experience. But graffiti is extremely powerful at effecting the issues, the only downside being that your liberals will get arrested often, even with high street sense.
What I find amusing is using guitar squads in car chases :D
Oh yeah, I always imagine them playing Yakety Sax! Guitars are amusing enough even without these hilarious chase-scenes, though!
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I believe murals give a small amount of uncapped juice. I think when you complete a multi-day mural you get like 10 juice or something.
According to the wiki...
You take a random number between 1 and [Heart + Art]. If you get high enough you gain juice. You'd need Heart + Art of 50 in order to have a chance to gain 10 juice (up to a max of 200).
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I believe murals give a small amount of uncapped juice. I think when you complete a multi-day mural you get like 10 juice or something.
According to the wiki...
You take a random number between 1 and [Heart + Art]. If you get high enough you gain juice. You'd need Heart + Art of 50 in order to have a chance to gain 10 juice (up to a max of 200).
Do you realise that the Wiki is horribly outdated in many aspects? I got over 200 juice, and I'm *THIS* <holds hands out wide> sure it was graffiti that gave it to me. The only possible other one would be defending self (getting the best outcome gives some juice), but graffiti was certainly responsible for some juice gains even over 200.
Here's the code line that gives juice from graffiti:
addjuice(*graffiti[s],power,power*20);Where the first parameter is the Creature who gets juice, the second one is the amount and the third one is the cap. The cap is tied to the graffiti's power, influenced by art 'n' heart.
And by the way, heart+art of 50 is impossible, because stats and skills are capped at 20.
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That code in now way refuted what I said. You have to show the code behind what defines power.
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Here's the code that handles completed large murals. I'm no expert in C++, and I haven't taken a good long look at the addjuice() function yet, and I don't have too much time to analyse the code here, but nevertheless... here we see that power is defined by ART and HEART of the graffiti maker in addition to a RNG. If I recall correctly the parameter given to LCSrandom is one larger than the maximum value of the random number, but 1 is added to the result, so the result would be between 1 and ((ART + HEART) / 5 + 1). I must've misread the code somewhere the last time I checked, since now I see the result appears to be capped optimally at 200, but what could've been juicing up Gandhi then...
But I still stick by what I said about HEART + ART being over 50. That's plain impossible unless there's some bug that allows it.
power=0;
1773 if(!LCSrandom(3))
1774 {
1775 char issuestr[60];
1776 getview(issuestr,graffiti[s]->activity.arg);
1777 issue=graffiti[s]->activity.arg;
1778 power=LCSrandom((graffiti[s]->skillval(SKILL_ART)+graffiti[s]->attval(ATTRIBUTE_HEART))/5+1)+1;
1779
1780 set_color(COLOR_WHITE,COLOR_BLACK,1);
1781 move(8,1);
1782 addstr(graffiti[s]->name);
1783 addstr(" has completed a");
1784 if(power>3)addstr(" beautiful");
1785 addstr(" mural about ");
1786 addstr(issuestr);
1787 addstr(".");
1788
1789 graffiti[s]->activity.arg=-1;
1790 addjuice(*graffiti[s],power,power*20);
1791 change_public_opinion(issue,power);
1792 graffiti[s]->train(SKILL_ART,MAX(10-graffiti[s]->skillval(SKILL_ART)/2,1));
1793 refresh();
1794 getch();
1795 }
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This bit right here:
power=LCSrandom((graffiti[s]->skillval(SKILL_ART)+graffiti[s]->attval(ATTRIBUTE_HEART))/5+1)+1;
It gets a random number from 1 to (ART + HEART)/5 +1*
So in other words...the wiki is correct.
*This +1 is to insure that the division results in a non-zero number.
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It does appear the wiki is correct, but I will point out that the code quoted here will give a maximum of 9 juice per gain, with a cap of 180, because, as Kay12 points out, it is impossible to get a Heart + Art of 50, which would be necessary to hit the 10/200.
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It does appear the wiki is correct, but I will point out that the code quoted here will give a maximum of 9 juice per gain, with a cap of 180, because, as Kay12 points out, it is impossible to get a Heart + Art of 50, which would be necessary to hit the 10/200.
I never said it was possible to get 10/200 out of it, I just said you'd need to have a Heart + Art of 50 for the math to work out.