Bay 12 Games Forum

Other Projects => Curses => Topic started by: Grimith on March 13, 2010, 02:21:14 am

Title: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Grimith on March 13, 2010, 02:21:14 am
What the hell does that subject title mean?: Nothing as interesting as I'm sure you thought it was. The data here is spoilerish if you don't know and don't want to know how the answers to your founder's biography affect his/her stats, and if you also don't want to see a tracking stat progression of a few templates from 0 to 1000 Juice. The data is also incredibly geeky and entirely unnecessary to play and enjoy the game. You've been warned.


Now, this morning, I've been going over the "Questions" section the LCSWiki, the one which details the consequences of the choices for the founder's background. See, I like to number crunch data from time to time; it's a hobby of mine for games I like, inspired by the min-maxing power gamer in me. When I created the answer-question template I used to create my founder for my LGWI thread, my primary goal was to set my founder up to have 20 Agility at Elite Liberal (1000 Juice) status without overdoing the Agility options and crippling my other stats. The template I used for him is as follows:

Base Stats (Improvement from Answers):
8 Heart
3 Intelligence (7)
6 Health
5 Agility (10)
4 Strength
4 Charisma (7)

Answers Chosen:
C (+2 INT)
A (+1 AGI, +1 Disguise)
E (+1 CHA, +1 Persuasion)
C (+1 Law)
D (+2 AGI, +2 Computers)
D (+1 Religion, +1 Psychology)
E (+1 CHA, +2 Persuasion)
C (+1 CHA, +2 Business)
B (AK-47, 9 Clips)
A (+2 INT, +2 AGI, +2 Disguise, +1 Security, +1 Stealth)

I tracked the stat progression as well (in spoiler tag due to length):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Add the other benefits of the Professional Thief start ($1200, Downtown Apartments Safehouse), and I have a character who has a strong opening and a very strong ending unless I turn him into a club wielder.

This morning, however, when I focused on the fact that answering "D" to the last option gives you +1 to all non-wisdom stats and additional stat gains on top of that, I had to make a character following my style of play using "D" as the final answer, to see if I could make my leader better. The slightly different template:

Base Stats (Improvement from Answers):
9 Heart
4 Intelligence (7)
7 Health (9)
6 Agility (10)
5 Strength
5 Charisma (8)

Answers Chosen:
C (+2 INT)
A (+1 AGI, +1 Disguise)
E (+1 CHA, +1 Persuasion)
C (+1 Law)
D (+2 AGI, +2 Computers)
D (+1 Religion, +1 Psychology)
E (+1 CHA, +2 Persuasion)
C (+1 CHA, +2 Business)
B (AK-47, 9 Clips)
D (+1 INT, +1 AGI, +2 HTH +2 First Aid, +2 Street Sense)

And the stat progression (also in spoiler tag):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Highschool Dropout gets nothing else other than a Homeless Shelter safehouse. Not a strong start, but her emphasis rests on her attributes, not her possessions.


Direct Comparison at 0 Juice:

Professional Thief
8 Heart
3 Intelligence (7)
6 Health
5 Agility (10)
4 Strength
4 Charisma (7)

Highschool Dropout
9 Heart
4 Intelligence (7)
7 Health (9)
6 Agility (10)
5 Strength
5 Charisma (8)

Direct Comparison at 1000 Juice:

Professional Thief
+2 [+10] Heart (18)
+2 [+9] Intelligence (16)
+2 [+9] Health (15)
+1 [+10] Agility (20)
+2 [+8] Strength (12)
+2 [+8] Charisma (16)

Highschool Dropout
+2 [+10] Heart (19)
+2 [+9] Intelligence (16)
+2 [+10] Health (19)
+1 [+10] Agility (20)
+2 [+8] Strength (13)
+2 [+10] Charisma (18)

Not only did my test Highschool Dropout have higher overall starting stats, but she also gained more stat points than my Professional Thief. But stats, not even for me, tell the whole story. Let's look at the stats they each gained from the final answered question:

Professional Thief
+2 Disguise
+1 Security
+1 Stealth

Highschool Dropout
+2 First Aid
+2 Street Sense

While the skills the Professional Thief has are easy to train, they are all useful in the early game. On the other hand, the Highschool Dropout has First Aid (in my opinion, an extremely useful skill in all parts of the game)... and Street Sense. While it's logical for someone who's been living on their own to start with Street Sense, I do not care much for the skill, especially for my founder. So what if the police try to capture my founder? Look at the stats. Big deal. I'm likely going to make her into a killing machine. Silly police officers won't be able to phase her. First Aid can't make up for how worthless Street Sense is in comparison to Disguise, Security, and Stealth.

As for the non-stat/skill advantages the two receive, that's a no contest. Professional Thief wins this section. A starting safehouse in the Downtown Apartments (with all the advantages such a safehouse provides) and a huge bankroll? So what if that safehouse costs a bundle a month? Providing you play your cards right, you won't want for cash. The Highschool Dropout gets the Homeless Shelter... which is a very dangerous place to stay, particularly if you're performing major crimes.

So: Stats can never be increased. Skills can. Money can. Safehouses can. However, you're most vulnerable at the start of the game, when skills and starting cash can make a noticeable impact. For me, as stat-obsessed as I am, I would likely keep the Professional Thief answer... just for that job title. Highschool Dropout, while fittingly Liberal, is neither uplifting nor inspiring. Besides... really, come on. Street Sense? Laaame.

( Idea: Modify Street Sense to affect also your ability to escape from Conservative forces on foot. It's fitting enough, and, in my opinion, would make the skill vastly more useful. )


Afterthought: I haven't gotten my geek on concerning the other stat starts. I last won the game with a Political Activist (E), but I definitely picked the answer choices I wanted to rather than min-max for fun and profit. I'll likely try to break them down some other time, but, for me, these two templates I created seem so attractive for my style of play.

Also, if you wondered why I chose the answers I did for questions #4 and #6, the answer is: Fun. Particularly with #6. I get a kick out of starting with a point of Religion skill.

...Well. Anyway. That's enough nerdiness from me for now. Time to take a break!

-EDIT: Math typo fix'd.
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Coronel_Niel on March 13, 2010, 02:27:40 am
Street Sense means your less likely to get a random encounter with secuirty guards and is one of the most useful skills.

Say you go out and murder 50 people. The next day, your asking people for donations. Now, you might just be the guy asking for donations but that police officer is gana go for you. If you had street sense, theres a chance they won't even start the chase.

Selling brownies trains street sense making this one of the hardest skills to get.
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Grimith on March 13, 2010, 02:37:41 am
If I send a character to go out and murder fifty people, I either:

1. Don't send him to go out and collect donations the next day. Or any day, really.
2. Don't worry about it. Characters with strong enough combat stats to be murdering all those people shouldn't have trouble dealing with the arresting officers.

Street sense is very hard to develop, yes, but I don't see the point of having it on a devoted combat machine... which my founder tends to be. Hence my very low value of the skill.

-Edit: And I don't feel it's that great of a skill even on non-devoted combat folks. I rarely send Liberals to sell brownies for money, so I don't have to worry about them, and I try to have folks who aren't wanted for crimes go out on the streets to perform legal fundraising. It's quite easy, in my opinion, to circumvent the entire need for Street Sense.
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Kay12 on March 13, 2010, 02:54:05 am
I've been trying to make a good set that has overall good INT, AGI and CHA for sneaky sneaky Nightmare victories. I already got a solo win on non-nightmare but death squads make it a pain. The best I've got was 9 each, without much in-depth analysis and focusing on some skills too.

Are the skill-capping stats listed somewhere? I'd like to have a peek since I'm not sure whether INT is worth maxing at the expense of AGI and CHA.

EDIT: I found out already... don't bother to answer. Perhaps I'll try squeeze out two points of INT for AGI and CHA.
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Grimith on March 13, 2010, 03:14:57 am
I'm curious to know how far along you've gotten towards influencing the issues and reversing the Arch-Conservative Nightmare with a solo nightmare run, Kay12. Does the general strategy running around using the Liberal Guardian to sway the public to your favor? Just trying to consider how one person, without anyone to take her place should she fall, goes about fighting the ever-present automatons.
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Kay12 on March 13, 2010, 04:59:24 am
Nightmare solo is pretty hard but I've managed to get some issues to M level. There are a few limitations...


Disguises are very important to train. I usually spend the first month or two making clothes and money, and once I'm good enough at making them, I'll start using them. My first target is the genetics lab, which I raid daily unless it goes into high security. I bluff the genetics monsters - it trains disguises quickly. Loot collected should increase the liberal treasury enough to buy a printing press, but I keep my liberal at the shelter since the only crimes committed at this point are no heat-ones and the press doesn't require anyone to operate it. WIth luck, I get some research papers to publish. Stealing a car isn't a bad idea once some security skill has been trained.

At this point, it's all about juice. Factories, cosmetics and genetics remain the primary targets, and leaving quickly upon discovery is a necessity (deathsquads run and drive fast). It's also often worth it to sneak in the AM/Cable to hunt for those memos, or the Judgehall to seek corruption evidence. Jury influencing with a weak liberal is risky, since it alienates everyone upon failure (lowering the popularity as well as causing threatening situations) and cell unlocking causes heat if done often, and I'm not ready for heat at this point.

Once doors unlock without crowbar, spraycan takes over (although it's effects aren't usually great). The issues should be slowly changing to liberal, and in the first congress election a slight liberal victory is to be expected. Once my liberal is high juice and has good disguises, AM/Cable raep becomes a feasible strategy (security guards can be bluffed even though they saw you on TV a while ago...). This racks up persuasion, making it feasible to raep juries, which racks up law, making it feasible to commit nastier crimes (prison break, terrorism and treason), making it feasible to get caught to clean oneself for another crime streak (a badly planned execution of this strategy backfired on me in early game, giving me a 43 year prison sentence. Somehow the degenration didn't occur, although the congress and senate were all C or C+).

Following these steps I'm seeking nightmare sneaky solo victory. Not too ambitious?
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: jasonred79 on March 13, 2010, 07:05:38 am
Quote from: Grimith on March 13, 2010, 02:21:14 am
Professional Thief
+2 Disguise
+1 Security
+1 Stealth

Highschool Dropout
+2 First Aid
+2 Street Sense

While the skills the Professional Thief has are easy to train, they are all useful in the early game. On the other hand, the Highschool Dropout has First Aid (in my opinion, an extremely useful skill in all parts of the game)... and Street Sense. While it's logical for someone who's been living on their own to start with Street Sense, I do not care much for the skill, especially for my founder. So what if the police try to capture my founder? Look at the stats. Big deal. I'm likely going to make her into a killing machine. Silly police officers won't be able to phase her. First Aid can't make up for how worthless Street Sense is in comparison to Disguise, Security, and Stealth.

As for the non-stat/skill advantages the two receive, that's a no contest. Professional Thief wins this section. A starting safehouse in the Downtown Apartments (with all the advantages such a safehouse provides) and a huge bankroll? So what if that safehouse costs a bundle a month? Providing you play your cards right, you won't want for cash. The Highschool Dropout gets the Homeless Shelter... which is a very dangerous place to stay, particularly if you're performing major crimes.

So: Stats can never be increased. Skills can. Money can. Safehouses can. However, you're most vulnerable at the start of the game, when skills and starting cash can make a noticeable impact. For me, as stat-obsessed as I am, I would likely keep the Professional Thief answer... just for that job title. Highschool Dropout, while fittingly Liberal, is neither uplifting nor inspiring. Besides... really, come on. Street Sense? Laaame.

You can train disguise up really easily by just wearing a disguise and pressing S when there is a conservative next to you. Those initial 2 points don't take more than 2 days of game time to achieve. For security, 1 day in the apartments trying to pick locks will give you 1.5. Stealth is really easy too.
By contrast First Aid and street sense take much much longer to train. I agree about street sense not being useful though.
 
Er. As for the non stat/skill advantages. That downtown apartment is a HUGE drain on finances every month.
If, as you say, you can make money easily... then that starting 1200 isn't important. As for starting with a downtown apartment... er. You know you can just walk up to any landlord and rent a room, right?
Anyhow, for me, for starting cash, I just start with $1000 instead of the AK47.
 
I must admit though, the job title of Profesional Thief does beat the pants off Highschool Dropout.
 
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 13, 2010, 07:43:10 am
Quote from: jasonred79 on March 13, 2010, 07:05:38 am
Er. As for the non stat/skill advantages. That downtown apartment is a HUGE drain on finances every month.
If, as you say, you can make money easily... then that starting 1200 isn't important. As for starting with a downtown apartment... er. You know you can just walk up to any landlord and rent a room, right?

It's true you can get apartments after start, but the initial apartment gives you a free month and charges significantly lower rent each month. The Professional Thief start is very cool, but it's very playstyle-dependent; I suspect most players would find the extra stats of the Highschool Dropout to be far more useful.
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Grimith on March 13, 2010, 11:23:52 am
Quote from: Kay12 on March 13, 2010, 04:59:24 am
  • Liberal guardian can't be effectively used

That does make sense the more I think about it.

Quote from: Kay12 on March 13, 2010, 04:59:24 am
(deathsquads run and drive fast)

Yet another reason why I huggle agility time and time again in this game. But I very much understand the "one mistake and gg all" clause, so you wouldn't want to tempt the RNG too much.

Quote from: Kay12 on March 13, 2010, 04:59:24 am
Following these steps I'm seeking nightmare sneaky solo victory. Not too ambitious?

I don't think so; you've got enough experience with the game to need a challenge of your own, and, as you've already taken care of this on non-nightmare, why not go for the gold? As violent and reckless as I play with Terminator Founder, however, I think I wouldn't try your nightmare dash without a backup, someone with just enough juice to slide into the seat and act as a Plan B card in the event the DS or prison system gets a hold of your founder. I wouldn't even use the backup to try and alter the issuse or raise money or anything once he got enough juice; he'd be ordered to keep low in a different location and watch from afar as I attempt to succeed.

But, nah. Too ambitious? No way!

Quote from: jasonred79 on March 13, 2010, 07:05:38 am
Skill points facts

Definitely can't argue with that. If you're determined enough, you can bulk up your skills relatively quickly. The charm in selecting such a career, then, only shines more if you're a newbie or you abhor "grinding" skill points.
 
Quote from: jasonred79 on March 13, 2010, 07:05:38 am
Apartment facts
Quote from: Jonathan S. Fox on March 13, 2010, 07:43:10 am
It's true you can get apartments after start, but the initial apartment gives you a free month and charges significantly lower rent each month.

The downtown apartments charge the Professional Thief $1200/month, which is $300 cheaper than everyone else has to pay, and you don't have to make your first payment until February 3, which doesn't give credence to this safehouse being a huge drain on financial resources unless you're playing Conservatively. Furthermore, as your safehouse is in the apartment complex, you receive a map of the place every time you Go Forth to Stop Evil there. When I loot apartments in the early game, my objective is to get the most loot possible without setting off a Conservative Alarm. Knowing where to go is a huge time-saver... and money-earner.

But, as I already noted - and you pointed out - it's not very difficult to earn money in this game. The loot I've gained from just a handful of thievery rounds, as you've seen in my LGWI thread, is more than enough to keep me afloat. Consequently, like the starting skills the Professional Thief and Highschool Dropout receive, the differences will make a big impact on folks who are new; veterans can get around those differences handily. I could see the Professional Thief start being even more advantageous, however, if you were setting conditional challenges upon yourself.

Quote from: jasonred79 on March 13, 2010, 07:05:38 am
I must admit though, the job title of Profesional Thief does beat the pants off Highschool Dropout.

I just can't help but imagine that the Highschool Dropout is pursuing a life of Liberalism because she's failed so much at life and she's just trying to find an excuse to gloss over it all (that's a more humorous idea than "leaving school because it's run by The Man"). I suppose, since your character will hopefully end up a legend in her own way, the one who sparked the Elite Liberal movement in the nation, where you came from won't be that big of a deal. It's just too hard for me to let go, even in the name of stats.
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Ampersand on March 13, 2010, 02:46:34 pm
I think the most useful skill to have is dodge. At skill 20, you can escape from a angry mob of 20+ people without a scratch. Or fight a tank, alone, with a club. I don't think it does any damage, but you can do it, for twenty rounds or more.
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: praguepride on March 14, 2010, 08:30:45 pm
I'm a big fan of Persausion + Disguise. Once you max those two skills out, just about every combat ends in one round.

Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Kay12 on March 15, 2010, 08:42:28 am
Quote from: praguepride on March 14, 2010, 08:30:45 pm
I'm a big fan of Persausion + Disguise. Once you max those two skills out, just about every combat ends in one round.



And raiding the cable/AM becomes a breeze.
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Kay12 on March 18, 2010, 03:42:40 am
Just for those who were interested in nightmare solo, I managed finally to beat it, using the steps I described above. 0 kills, 0 recruits, 0 loveslaves, 0 enlightened, 1 hero. I used classic mode, since playing the way I do, it actually is a tad harder (when playing non violent and low heat, they won't raid you and will only shift mood against themselves) not to mention having less newspapers pop up to speed up the game.
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Grimith on March 18, 2010, 11:32:28 am
Yaaay. Now your next task should be to do it all over again with the most incompatible starting stat set you can devise!
Title: Re: Founder Starting Statistical Analysis (With Improvement Tracking!)
Post by: Kay12 on March 18, 2010, 11:38:50 am
Hmm, tricky. Strength or Health may be the most useless stat here. AGI, INT and CHA are top-importance. So HRT, STR and HTH it is, or preferably just one of them.