Any, Toady already said he wasn't going to do it.
I don't know how this became the conventional wisdom, because (as far as I know) he's never made an unqualified statement that he wouldn't in any form implement feces, scat, waste, or night soil. The game already has a brown "filth" material that, according to Toady, is feces (see quotes below).
Here's all the quotes I could dig up (note that this first one is from 2004, and that "no plans" is very different from "won't do it"):There are no plans to add "night soil". Dwarves poop little pebbles which seemlessly disappear into the cavern floor, or they collect them and cherish them or something.Do dwarves have water closets? Will we need to carefully craft "flushing" mechanisms to carry the unmentionables away?
There is currently no potty.4. Manure, as a fertilizer.
4. They just drop it everywhere? Everyone will might be doing it after a while... night soil, and so on. But it's a dangerous door to open, especially if the room on the other side is full. If a god turns you into a horse in adventure mode, would you suddenly start dropping the bomb?
From DF Talk: (http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html)QuoteToady: [...] I like the idea of being able to track things and find them, and pick up little kobold scats and dig around to see what they've been eating ... after a fashion, anyway.QuoteRainseeker: So there's no poo creatures either?
Toady: It was a close thing! Because it was literally a decision I had to make, going down this list, because in the Hidden Fun Stuff of course if you get the tentacle demons then you get a layer scattered with various filth on the ground; and there's brown filth and yellow filth and so on and it's not clearly stated but it's a material that I had to put in properties for right? So there's these hard-coded filth materials, and when I was going down the list, you know 'Do I want creatures made out of mud? Do I want creatures made out of vomit? Do I want creatures made out of glass?', there's all these hard-coded materials, and I was just like 'Yeah, yeah, yeah ... No ... No ...' on the filth. But there are creatures made out of the grime, and the grime material is the material that collects on your body slowly over time, and it's also the material that's used in swamp water, so there's this ... I just needed this material called 'grime' for these miscellaneous purposes, it's just crap, just stuff that collects over time and when a creature is made out of that it just says 'composed of grime and filth'. So if you want to call that 'poo' even though it's not it's possible for you to extend your imagination.QuoteToady: [...] But the kind of thing that's on the table is gunpowder, and the materials that you need for that are already in the game, I think. We've got brimstone, which is sulphur, and I don't remember if we have saltpetre, if it's there or not, but ... I guess you could do all kinds of things with manure and urine to make it, or you can find it in a crystalline form in the ground perhaps.
And finally, sewers full of filth were a powergoal in the old dev item system:Quote# PowerGoal153, THE CRACKS OF DOOM, (Future): You flee into the sewer with the baron's ring, but sliding in the muck, you drop it. Try as you might, you cannot locate the precious object in the town's filth.
It's really not necessary, nor useful. Just another annoying burden.You're against annoying burdens and you play dwarf fortress?
I'm against vulgar annoying burdens.It's really not necessary, nor useful. Just another annoying burden.You're against annoying burdens and you play dwarf fortress?
I mean, SOMEONE would build a drowning trap that runs on sewage. And that's just wrong.
But if they don't die, they'll just run around tracking poo everywhere. Do you want a fort covered in poo?I mean, SOMEONE would build a drowning trap that runs on sewage. And that's just wrong.
If someone is going to mess with my fort, they deserve to drown in poop.
Because tentacle demons who spew 'white filth' and are loved for their naughty intentions isn't vulgar?I'm against vulgar annoying burdens.It's really not necessary, nor useful. Just another annoying burden.You're against annoying burdens and you play dwarf fortress?
I mean, SOMEONE would build a drowning trap that runs on sewage. And that's just wrong.
At least I can follow the trail (and the stink), I'll have some poor sap scrub it up afterward.But if they don't die, they'll just run around tracking poo everywhere. Do you want a fort covered in poo?I mean, SOMEONE would build a drowning trap that runs on sewage. And that's just wrong.
If someone is going to mess with my fort, they deserve to drown in poop.
...No?Because tentacle demons who spew 'white filth' and are loved for their naughty intentions isn't vulgar?I'm against vulgar annoying burdens.It's really not necessary, nor useful. Just another annoying burden.You're against annoying burdens and you play dwarf fortress?
I mean, SOMEONE would build a drowning trap that runs on sewage. And that's just wrong.
Can we just DROP this one already... I don't want to have to freaking organize a SEWAGE SYSTEM along WITH a drainage and water system damn it.Wouldn't be that hard to have a flowing channel of water running under every room's toilet and out onto some poor beastmen's camp.
Can we just DROP this one already... I don't want to have to freaking organize a SEWAGE SYSTEM along WITH a drainage and water system damn it.Wouldn't be that hard to have a flowing channel of water running under every room's toilet and out onto some poor beastmen's camp.
Tentacle demon drowning trap. Poop's for kiddies and elves.Because tentacle demons who spew 'white filth' and are loved for their naughty intentions isn't vulgar?I'm against vulgar annoying burdens.It's really not necessary, nor useful. Just another annoying burden.You're against annoying burdens and you play dwarf fortress?
I mean, SOMEONE would build a drowning trap that runs on sewage. And that's just wrong.
I think Toady HAS mentioned something about sewage. I don't know why I recall it being a planned feature, but I am pretty sure it is.Actually, as I remember it he said he was completely against it. I'll look.
Which is why dwarves would go in the river by default, which would wash it away.
Oh look, add a meaningless addon to make healthcare more valuable.Having a dwarf vomit is also meaningless, but it's in the game. Vermin are almost entirely meaningless but they're in the game. Heck, ELVES are entirely meaningless and they're in the game. :P
Actually, the ONE benefit to adding waste management would be to just hear "Urist McSickdwarf has died of dysentery."
Your dorfs should be able to throw crap at people they hate just like we did back when I spent some time in the iron bar hotel.Considering you can throw vomit, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to throw the other end of the digestive tract's remains.
I'm against vulgar annoying burdens.It's really not necessary, nor useful. Just another annoying burden.You're against annoying burdens and you play dwarf fortress?
I mean, SOMEONE would build a drowning trap that runs on sewage. And that's just wrong.
Shouldn't this be placed in the eternal suggestion thingTHAT.
This sounds like yet another unnecessary, disgusting, useless addition to the game.So sigged.
Bring it on. ;D
I didn't feel like carving out an intricate system of tunnels to carry away theirThats blasphemy! Carving intricate system of tunnels and topping it with complex engineering to just wash away the waste is completely dwarfish and 'must have'.
I mean, SOMEONE would build a drowning trap that runs on sewage. And that's just wrong.
Poop can't we added as we wouldn't know if there was blood mixed with vomit in a tile or poo :o
Or runny pools of green if the dwarf ate a bad plump helmet.Poop can't we added as we wouldn't know if there was blood mixed with vomit in a tile or poo :o
The answer here surely is to simply use a different shade of brown.
Oh look, add a meaningless addon to make healthcare more valuable.
Actually, the ONE benefit to adding waste management would be to just hear "Urist McSickdwarf has died of dysentery."
Will we be able to coat arrows in filth to give enemies E. Coli?If we're using realistic E. Coli I doubt that would work very well. E. Coli causes health problems when a rare strain starts to interject on a common strain's territory, resulting in the immune system overeacting, as is it's trademark. E. Coli itself is non-pathogenic. Being shot with a filth covered arrow would cause other problems should it enter the bloodstream, though.
I'd be all for it then.
You can't juggle TOO MANY THINGS at once, or the level of challenge will surpass the learning ability of the player, creating frustration as things go to hell. We already have that problem due to the horrible interface, adding something like this before the interface is COMPLETELY overhauled is asking for trouble.Wel then 'mister scientist', that's what the init's for! You can turn of economy, invaders and even temperature. Just a little option for those who want to take fortress design to the next level!
Let's drop the whole Dwarves reproducing via spores and add dwarven intercourse.Thats another needed feature, yes. But i believe its not related to sewers/waste.
Of course we'd have to handle dwarves dumping their clothes AND picking them up afterwards properly first.Cloth? Who needs that? True dorf dont bother with that and just wear his steel platemail on nude body. And, obviously, have intercourse in it as well, with his favorite named axe under pillow.
It's actually astounding that people are complaining about poo being too icky for them to handle in an ASCII game. The level of immaturity here is staggering.
I view it as added realism, an engineering challenge, and another valuable resource.
The question is... how would it be done?
I see a few possibilities: The first one would be a toilet furniture piece, that lets filth drop down one level, where it might be washed away or dissolved by water. Instead of washing away, you also could just let it fill the toilets and, now and then, have a dwarf dump the filth in a designated pit with a bucket. You don't have to build it into every room. A few public bathrooms should suffice. I suggest the glob archetype for filth and, naturally, it should produce smell.
(disclaimer: despite my earlier sarcastic proposition, I am pro filth)
I built a little latrine off my tower, just to show how its done.That sarcasm wasn't clever in the slightest.
(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1585/latrine.png) (http://img62.imageshack.us/i/latrine.png/)
OH GOD! THATS REVOLTING! I SHOULD HAVE SPOILERED IT!
*projectile vomits all over the place, giving all forum readers vomit smears and painting the map green*
Oh... oh man. Sorry. Ugh. *spit* *HAWWWWCK* *spit*
Thats just too much. I'm sorry to have ever posted this.
Heck, you might even dump it outside of a fortress walls, instead of building a sweage system.
Oh that was sarcasm...I built a little latrine off my tower, just to show how its done.That sarcasm wasn't clever in the slightest.
(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1585/latrine.png) (http://img62.imageshack.us/i/latrine.png/)
OH GOD! THATS REVOLTING! I SHOULD HAVE SPOILERED IT!
*projectile vomits all over the place, giving all forum readers vomit smears and painting the map green*
Oh... oh man. Sorry. Ugh. *spit* *HAWWWWCK* *spit*
Thats just too much. I'm sorry to have ever posted this.
I built a little latrine off my tower, just to show how its done.
(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1585/latrine.png) (http://img62.imageshack.us/i/latrine.png/)
OH GOD! THATS REVOLTING! I SHOULD HAVE SPOILERED IT!
*projectile vomits all over the place, giving all forum readers vomit smears and painting the map green*
Oh... oh man. Sorry. Ugh. *spit* *HAWWWWCK* *spit*
Thats just too much. I'm sorry to have ever posted this.
Carp can't tear apart ANYTHING anymore.
Carp can't tear apart ANYTHING anymore.
They can't?
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
I'm for this if other liquids like blood and booze become flow-able like water eventually.They did stuff like that in the medieval times ::)
Not looking forward to all the fecal-death-trap threads however.
Carp can't tear apart ANYTHING anymore.
Also, I have to say, blood and guts is much more disgusting than "filth".
I mean, it's even labeled as the respective body parts.
Its not like this "filth" has to be labeled Dwarven Poop.
I'm for this if other liquids like blood and booze become flow-able like water eventually.They did stuff like that in the medieval times ::)
Not looking forward to all the fecal-death-trap threads however.
I'm for this if other liquids like blood and booze become flow-able like water eventually.
Not looking forward to all the fecal-death-trap threads however.
You know we still want to attract people to the game, right?
It's hard enough getting people to play with ASCII graphics, a learning curve that resembles a cliff, and an overwhelming amount of depth paired with a clunky interface, the last thing we need are things like this.
As an already experienced player though, I'm all for it! ;D
*Applauds*I'm for this if other liquids like blood and booze become flow-able like water eventually.
Not looking forward to all the fecal-death-trap threads however.
I bet when this is implemented the goblins will have a bit of a... shit day! Badum-tsh!
*Bows* Thank you, thank you, I'm here all night!*Applauds*I'm for this if other liquids like blood and booze become flow-able like water eventually.
Not looking forward to all the fecal-death-trap threads however.
I bet when this is implemented the goblins will have a bit of a... shit day! Badum-tsh!
The greatest problem with the idea, other than the admitted potential of added complexity, is the addition of a new "fluid". I think this idea can be handled adequately with the new contaminants system.If it's just a contaminant, we can't pump it, use it to trigger pressure plates, etc. Think of the possibilities if it was - you could drown elves in pure sewage (although they're less useless in 0.31.01) instead of just drowning them in water contaminated with sewage!
I'm against vulgar annoying burdens.It's really not necessary, nor useful. Just another annoying burden.You're against annoying burdens and you play dwarf fortress?
I mean, SOMEONE would build a drowning trap that runs on sewage. And that's just wrong.
Failing that, it'd be something new to try pouring down There.I'm against vulgar annoying burdens.It's really not necessary, nor useful. Just another annoying burden.You're against annoying burdens and you play dwarf fortress?
I mean, SOMEONE would build a drowning trap that runs on sewage. And that's just wrong.
Yes, someone would.
Me.
Well then Toady would need to add genital body parts... which I foresee ending poorly in wrestling.Adding the parts isn't hard. I already did in my own mods.
historically, sewage wasnt much of a burden, you'd just dig a big hole and fill it up, and farmers would take it to spread on the fields
I can't for the life of me understand why anyone is against this, if this is a simulator we need it, if it is a civ builder we need it, if it is a sandbox game, we have init options.
We have a health system now, and poop, or filth, is (should be) just one aspect of that system.
historically, sewage wasnt much of a burden, you'd just dig a big hole and fill it up, and farmers would take it to spread on the fieldsbad! BAD!!!
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to discriminate against the plants.historically, sewage wasnt much of a burden, you'd just dig a big hole and fill it up, and farmers would take it to spread on the fieldsbad! BAD!!!
He managed to revive this thread after it has been dead for a week.Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to discriminate against the plants.historically, sewage wasnt much of a burden, you'd just dig a big hole and fill it up, and farmers would take it to spread on the fieldsbad! BAD!!!
He managed to revive this thread after it has been dead for a week.Well, now you are only making it worse. And so am I. ;Dhistorically, sewage wasnt much of a burden, you'd just dig a big hole and fill it up, and farmers would take it to spread on the fieldsbad! BAD!!!
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to discriminate against the plants.
The automatic scaling is the important thing, because it gives a chance for someone to build up a bit before running into these problems.
The automatic scaling is the important thing, because it gives a chance for someone to build up a bit before running into these problems.
Everyone goes in the bushes until the count shows up, turns his nose up at your disgusting rustic ways, and demands a proper toilet? Awesome!
As someone who manages and maintains his own septic system (yes I live in a rural area), I am intrigued by the possibilities this presents. Masterwork settling tanks, lay pewter infiltrator laterals... world-flooding bypass lever...
You know we still want to attract people to the game, right?
It's hard enough getting people to play with ASCII graphics, a learning curve that resembles a cliff, and an overwhelming amount of depth paired with a clunky interface, the last thing we need are things like this.
As an already experienced player though, I'm all for it! ;D
Actually, the ONE benefit to adding waste management would be to just hear "Urist McSickdwarf has died of dysentery."
Don't forget how all dwarves envy the tanner for being able to pass fluids productively.
I want sewege, doesn't have to be specific or anything, and most of all I want the extra fun of having sewers from which various creatures of evil come forth and cause my dwarves problems, until I flush the entire sewer out with magma.Indeed, but I'd make it so that a) sewage doesn't evaporate and b) water contaminated with sewage spawns creatures that can swim in sewage.
toilet is too modern, more like a bucket that had to be emptied on a sewage dumping zone
historically, sewage wasnt much of a burden, you'd just dig a big hole and fill it up, and farmers would take it to spread on the fields
Sorry folks, I have to say that if my dwarf is happily munching on a raw goat lung with a side of thyroid gland, there's really nothing against some abstracted 'filth' dwarves produce in a 1/7 puddle in the channel under a toilet.Can I load my stone fall traps with filth?
EDIT: Added my full suggestion up here.
Just so its clear, I'd like 'filth' as an evaporating flow that leaves behind trackable, disgusting grime on the tile. Outside, filth is washed away by rain and dwarves will try to 'use a shrub' if no options are possible. Once you start digging deep, problems arise.
Dwarves who do their smelly business randomly through the fort because you have no sanitation system get unhappy thoughts. Grime gets on their clothes and into wounds, causing infections. Dwarves have to clean themselves as well as the floors of grime, which causes more unhappy thoughts. The solution is to build a latrine, a 1x1 tile room consisting of a chair, hatch cover and bucket, using the hatch cover tile. It is built over open space just like a well, only dwarves can stand on it. You designate it into a room, assigning an owner if you wish or leaving it public. Using a latrine room when more than one dwarf is present in the room causes an unhappy thought; don't forget the door!
Example latrine off a tower; note the gem window and masterful pine door!Spoiler (click to show/hide)
When used, the 1/7 bit of filth falls down into whatever hole exists to either splatter at the base of a tower, off a cliff, into a stream, into a cistern, or into a flowing sewer tunnel. In any case, doing so causes a happy thought (a golden throne and platinum bucket causing even happier ones). The dwarf is filth and grime free and returns to his daily routine of vomiting and getting covered in antman ichor. If filth doesn't begin to pile up, it evaporates into grime which can be ignored. If it does pile up, however, it spreads to other tiles using magma physics; unpressured and slow. A busy fort might find itself filling smaller cisterns. A 4/7 tile of filth generates miasma, which can rise through the latrine or any other openings.
Dealing with the filth production of a large fort requires water or magma. Magma obviously burns filth into smoke and causes potentially hillarious results, since a stream of flammable liquid trails from the magma all the way to your dwarf's behind sitting on a latrine. Clever players can come up with a solution or ten to this possible source of fun; floodgates, for example. However water behaves with filth differently. When water comes in contact with filth, any amount of filth, it is turned into filthy water and the two liquids combine. Filthy water leaves behind grime rather than mud, making it unsuitable for farming and bathing, and contaminates wells and pools. Dwarves must cautiously direct the water off site, into rivers or caverns, and possibly have evaporated away in the boundless magma sea. However, filthy water does not generate miasma or burn. It does, however, create an inviting habitat for a variety of mutated crap. I mean carp. Also tentacled beasties and kobolds, naturally.
Some people are worried that huge sewer systems will be required for forts; they are not. They are only required for huge forts. Your founders will be quite content to use shrubs and the like during the early months and once a latrine can be set up in a corner with a decent cistern below, you really have nothing to worry about for several waves of migrants. Once enough migrants amass that your latrines begin to fill and generate miasma, either dump the latrines into rivers, flush them with pumped or bucketed water, or seal up the latrine and dig newer, bigger ones. Only when your sprawling megafortress begins generating a new tile of 7/7 filth every week do you need the sort of sewer system that so many players long to explore in adventurer mode or defend against ratmen invaders. Because there is a lot of build-up time before the major demand arrives, most people should be able to agree this is a way to add fun and challenge to the end game. Kings demanding private golden latrines and sewer monsters crawling out of the deep? Sieges forcing us to close off our sewer system and disease running rampant through the fort? Yes please.
And of course, filth could be disabled in the init raw, and by being handled as 'filth' rather than specifically urine and feces, we put a fig leaf on the matter for the squeamish.
Can we just DROP this one already... I don't want to have to freaking organize a SEWAGE SYSTEM along WITH a drainage and water system damn it.Wouldn't be that hard to have a flowing channel of water running under every room's toilet and out onto some poor beastmen's camp.
It would be if you embark without flowing surface water and you decide to build entirely on the surface while all the underground pools are down about 100 z-levels. Then it becomes just a little annoying in the early game.
Really. This is a real thing. That people want. This is not a joke. Sewage. In DF.
Am I the only one who thinks this is the dumbest idea they've ever heard of in their entire lives?
Am I the only one who thinks this is the dumbest idea they've ever heard of in their entire lives?You should check how much your municipality spends on sewage then.
This is a stupid, childish and ultimately vulgarly useless idea that will contribute nothing but meaningless numbers and impossible 3D fort design to the game.Duuude... Do NOT do this, you say it's a stupid idea only to revive the thread >:(
And therefore, I wholeheartedly support it.
Only if it generates an invisible miasma when a dwarf drops one, though. And dwarves nearby, depending on what that dwarf had eaten, will get a varying amount of displeasure from it. Possibly have a personality trait of "depravity" that enjoys the smell.
That is all.
Dwarves who do their smelly business randomly through the fort
Relax. It'd have an init switch, so you could just turn it off.It had better!
Er, looks like he supports it.This is a stupid, childish and ultimately vulgarly useless idea that will contribute nothing but meaningless numbers and impossible 3D fort design to the game.Duuude... Do NOT do this, you say it's a stupid idea only to revive the thread >:(
And therefore, I wholeheartedly support it.
Please. Please. Please just don't respond anymore.
This is a stupid, childish and ultimately vulgarly useless idea that will contribute nothing but meaningless numbers and impossible 3D fort design to the game.
the *throw poop at elves hahaha* is not funny anymore, if it ever was
Oh no, someone made a joke I don't like on the internet. Call the police.
This is a stupid, childish and ultimately vulgarly useless idea that will contribute nothing but meaningless numbers and impossible 3D fort design to the game.
And therefore, I wholeheartedly support it.
Only if it generates an invisible miasma when a dwarf drops one, though. And dwarves nearby, depending on what that dwarf had eaten, will get a varying amount of displeasure from it. Possibly have a personality trait of "depravity" that enjoys the smell.
That is all.
Also, the invisible miasma should be flammable / explosive.
He said 'shit' *chuckle*Oh no, someone made a joke I don't like on the internet. Call the police.
more like someone made a joke that has been done 150 times on a thread with 170 posts! this is serious shit, people!!
Remember, didn't Toady say there will be sewage?But he definitely said something about the subject, year or two ago. We should summon Footkerchief to find exact quote
I present just as much supporting evidence as you. Watch this.
I still don't understand how people can come up with an idea, sensibly, with ideas to support it, for a couple of people to go "WELL I DON'T LIKE IT SO NONE OF YOU CAN HAVE IT".It's not like that, it's like, if Toady will start implenting this feature, all the don't-like-guys will have to wait for some more fun and more interesting features. Also i double aski for the ability to mod in complex features like this thread.
Features like?QuoteI still don't understand how people can come up with an idea, sensibly, with ideas to support it, for a couple of people to go "WELL I DON'T LIKE IT SO NONE OF YOU CAN HAVE IT".It's not like that, it's like, if Toady will start implenting this feature, all the don't-like-guys will have to wait for some more fun and more interesting features. Also i double aski for the ability to mod in complex features like this thread.
Honestly, the level of resistance to this idea, in my opinion, means that sewage should be Liberaly religated to a mod.
I wouldn't mind sewage if you could toggle it in the init file. Mandatory cleaning up of pooing dwarves? Not thanks.Which would still leave you with mandatory cleaning up of blood, mandatory cleaning up of vomit, mandatory cleaning up of mud, mandatory cleaning up of FB's extracts...
out of curiosity, is this thread intended to reach the mind of Toady so that he considers adding sewage, or simply to discuss the possibility with the community?
Why waste todays time on waste production, if we could have far more awesome things in... sighI agree, we should waste tomorrows time!
Isn't poop already in the game? My refuse pile is full of little number 2's.
Bum-dum-ching
Which would still leave you with mandatory cleaning up of blood, mandatory cleaning up of vomit, mandatory cleaning up of mud, mandatory cleaning up of FB's extracts...
I wonder if you could use poop as an Artifact material. I wonder what the artifact's value would be.ALL FEAR MY SWORD OF DISEASE
I'd really hate for dwarf fortress to have sewage. The main reason is reputation. Dwarf fortress is currently known as "the game with insane dwarves and magma." That's awesome. I don't want people to say, about dwarf fortress "Yeah it's that game with shit demons."
I'd really hate for dwarf fortress to have sewage. The main reason is reputation. Dwarf fortress is currently known as "the game with insane dwarves and magma." That's awesome. I don't want people to say, about dwarf fortress "Yeah it's that game with shit demons."
I don't want fecal matter/sewage in DF because I (no pun intended) have enough shit to handle already without handling, well, dwarves pooping.
Let's get bug fixes handled first so I can play 31.0x reliably (I'm still on 40d) before we worry about adding more stuff that, to me, basically seems "cosmetic".
no. bad idea. next.
I already count three layers to that joke, one of which I hadn't considered. Can anyone come up with four?
I already count three layers to that joke, one of which I hadn't considered. Can anyone come up with four?
Don't force it, that's not healthy.
:D
voted for this. you people have no idea how much i want this. making indestructible forts is way too easy, it could use some complication.YOU RESURRECTED THE THREAD MAKING IT COME IN MY UNREAD THREADS. YOU MADE MEH UNHAPPEH >:(
Of course, there should be an init option to satisfy the whiners.Has already been said. People don't want Toady to work on something they aren't going to use.
Of course, there should be an init option to satisfy the whiners.Has already been said. People don't want Toady to work on something they aren't going to use.
People don't want Toady toAnd there us where this topic fails. This is not a democracy, Toady One doesn't care how the min-maximizers or anybody thinks his game should look like; he will make the game how he wants to make it. It is his game after all, not yours.
I'm trying to get this thread to die because I wholeheartedly agree with you. He does what he want so having this discussion is useless in the first place. At least put it in the suggestions page :/People don't want Toady toAnd there us where this topic fails. This is not a democracy, Toady One doesn't care how the min-maximizers or anybody thinks his game should look like; he will make the game how he wants to make it. It is his game after all, not yours.
And this is good, I've seen people like you, who presume to dictate to the actual game developers how the game should be like, erroneously thinking they represent the majority of the players, ruin plenty of great games. Take Kindgdomofloathing for example, the goddamn min-maximisers have transformed the game from a fun, witty and humorous browser game into an acquisition and grind game similar to world of warcraft.
These endless discussions are absolutely pointless and futile, especially if you realise that Toady One hasn't even posted in this topic you are all so fervently arguing in.
These endless discussions are absolutely pointless and futile, especially if you realise that Toady One hasn't even posted in this topic you are all so fervently arguing in."Hasn't posted" is not equal to "didn't read".
People don't want Toady toAnd there us where this topic fails. This is not a democracy, Toady One doesn't care how the min-maximizers or anybody thinks his game should look like; he will make the game how he wants to make it. It is his game after all, not yours.
And this is good, I've seen people like you, who presume to dictate to the actual game developers how the game should be like, erroneously thinking they represent the majority of the players, ruin plenty of great games. Take Kindgdomofloathing for example, the goddamn min-maximisers have transformed the game from a fun, witty and humorous browser game into an acquisition and grind game similar to world of warcraft.
These endless discussions are absolutely pointless and futile, especially if you realise that Toady One hasn't even posted in this topic you are all so fervently arguing in.
Bunny's eloquent post.
Returning to our discussion then, I'd favour the option to make a zone for dwarfy ablutions. That allows the option to set a small zone outside away from the fortress for early on, and allows for more complex channels over running water drainage systems, toilets over pits, toilets over lava, toilets ovewr noble chambers...Agreed. But you should also be able to build and place toilets over these zones to give dwarves a happy thought from using them.
I know it kind of prevents the option for crafting awesome adamantine chamber pots menacing with spikes of elf bone and adorned with hanging rings of cat leather, but I can see it as the easiest way to work waste in without causing too much game disruption.
Thoughts?
Powergoal: An Elven siege descends upon you after years of fruitful trading with them. They claim the waste you flush into the river has caused an epidemic that has nearly wiped out their people.Awesome.
Grimly, you pull the lever that simultaneously seals the fort and opens the retracting bridges built 50 z-levels up, where you have been pumping what waste you haven't been using to subtly murder the Elves. Many shocked Elves drown as and amouint of filth nine embark tiles square and 10 deep falls on their heads. Sadly, you failed to notice a misplaced channel, and you fort slowly floods. By the time you notice it is too late.Rather uncreative and boring. But the first part was awesome.
Your fortress has crumbled away to ruin.
My vote: move along. DF doesn't need this. I hope you don't get what you want, so that I never have to futz with modding it out (or worse, I can't).
I can't wait for "mucus" to be implemented!
A dwarf with "allergies" could create an abundance of mucus when exposed to certain types of plants, foods, or animals!
I could make a mucus moat! YAY!
It will be awesome.
QuoteI can't wait for "mucus" to be implemented!
A dwarf with "allergies" could create an abundance of mucus when exposed to certain types of plants, foods, or animals!
I could make a mucus moat! YAY!
It will be awesome.
That would add more depth to the sickness things we now have... and give gamers another level on which to check for sickness. Certainly I would prefer my dorfs all get snotty than find the fat boiling from their feet and causing them to bleed out...
.
That shit is why we have to check and make sure our veggies and fruits aren't from Mexico, because they grow it with human waste. Bad bad bad.
But yay for spreading unsubstantiated rumors!.
That shit is why we have to check and make sure our veggies and fruits aren't from Mexico, because they grow it with human waste. Bad bad bad.
I'm in the middle of nowhere in Mexico at the moment, and no, they don't.
My vote: move along. DF doesn't need this. I hope you don't get what you want, so that I never have to futz with modding it out (or worse, I can't).I am blown away by your amazing logic.
What is it in human waste that isn't in cow, horse, pig, chicken and sheep waste?
But yay for spreading unsubstantiated rumors!.
That shit is why we have to check and make sure our veggies and fruits aren't from Mexico, because they grow it with human waste. Bad bad bad.
I'm in the middle of nowhere in Mexico at the moment, and no, they don't.
Out of curiosity, and ignorance, why specifially is human waste supposed to be so terrible for growing veggies in? I mean, my veggies grow in a mixture of rotted vegetable matter and dirt, my MIL swears by diluted chicken shit and I know plenty of people who barter with livestock owners for faeces from all kinds of animals for farming. Others just buy their manure ready packed. My great grandad always used blood fish and bone, with rotted vegetable matter mixed into the soil.
What is it in human waste that isn't in cow, horse, pig, chicken and sheep waste?
But yay for spreading unsubstantiated rumors!.
That shit is why we have to check and make sure our veggies and fruits aren't from Mexico, because they grow it with human waste. Bad bad bad.
I'm in the middle of nowhere in Mexico at the moment, and no, they don't.
Some years ago there was a rumor that a leprous janitor at the Corona beer plants in Mexico was pissing into the vats.
Keep the tradition alive!
(Budweiser was responsible for the rumor. Those fuckers.)
But yay for spreading unsubstantiated rumors!.
That shit is why we have to check and make sure our veggies and fruits aren't from Mexico, because they grow it with human waste. Bad bad bad.
I'm in the middle of nowhere in Mexico at the moment, and no, they don't.
Some years ago there was a rumor that a leprous janitor at the Corona beer plants in Mexico was pissing into the vats.
Keep the tradition alive!
(Budweiser was responsible for the rumor. Those fuckers.)
But yay for spreading unsubstantiated rumors!.
That shit is why we have to check and make sure our veggies and fruits aren't from Mexico, because they grow it with human waste. Bad bad bad.
I'm in the middle of nowhere in Mexico at the moment, and no, they don't.
Some years ago there was a rumor that a leprous janitor at the Corona beer plants in Mexico was pissing into the vats.
Keep the tradition alive!
(Budweiser was responsible for the rumor. Those fuckers.)
Oh, you mean they were pouring Bud Light into the Coors bottles.
Zing!
Hi!
Since quite a few members, including myself, have voiced concern about the maturity of the forum members who want to have "poo" or "poop" as they prefer to call feces and are therefore reluctant to support it wholeheartedly, the new poll options just confirm our fears that we are dealing with people who are only interested in "putting turds on a stick" and brag about that "great idea". In other words, I don't think that poll is funny or helpful for your cause, but rather helps discredit it.
Deathworks
Now all you have to do is make anyone who voted for the bottom two vanish, and you will have become Comrad Stalin.
Now all you have to do is make anyone who voted for the bottom two vanish, and you will have become Comrad Stalin.
actually, I'd say hitler jr. Stalin only had the people with influence who opposed him killed.
Hi!
Since quite a few members, including myself, have voiced concern about the maturity of the forum members who want to have "poo" or "poop" as they prefer to call feces and are therefore reluctant to support it wholeheartedly, the new poll options just confirm our fears that we are dealing with people who are only interested in "putting turds on a stick" and brag about that "great idea". In other words, I don't think that poll is funny or helpful for your cause, but rather helps discredit it.
Deathworks
Hi!
Since quite a few members, including myself, have voiced concern about the maturity of the forum members who want to have "poo" or "poop" as they prefer to call feces and are therefore reluctant to support it wholeheartedly, the new poll options just confirm our fears that we are dealing with people who are only interested in "putting turds on a stick" and brag about that "great idea". In other words, I don't think that poll is funny or helpful for your cause, but rather helps discredit it.
Deathworks
One of the poll options is "what kind of rigged poll is this?" I mean, seriously, do you think whoever made the poll cares about its credibility then? And it is funny, certainly when people think this is a democracy. If the countless arguments pro-sewage didn't convince you, then you'll never be convinced, nor will any poll outcome change your mind. Then again, its Toady that needs to be convinced not you anyways, and if he says nay then it'll be nay no matter what.
What kind of rigged poll is this? MSNBC has fairer. Also, I am pro-filth.
Now all you have to do is make anyone who voted for the bottom two vanish, and you will have become Comrad Stalin.
actually, I'd say hitler jr. Stalin only had the people with influence who opposed him killed.
It had to happen. Hitler brought up in a discussion about poop.
*Brushes away a tear*Now all you have to do is make anyone who voted for the bottom two vanish, and you will have become Comrad Stalin.
actually, I'd say hitler jr. Stalin only had the people with influence who opposed him killed.
It had to happen. Hitler brought up in a discussion about poop.
Godwin's law held for a discussion about crap in a video game. Amazing.
I really hope we will be able to mod poop out easily enough. The last thing I need is to give my dwarves yet another excuse to cancel that 'make raw clear glass' task I need done to keep my mooded weaponsmith from going mad.
But that's just me.
Modders WILL find a way to utilize it if any hint of the addition is in the RAWs, probably immaturely, but those who do will be a minority and probably easily ignored. If they aren't ignored, well, trolls + food = more trolls = more poop jokes and mods = more WTFBBQSEWERZRBADANDSTUFF!!111(half trolls, anyone?) = even more trolls, ad nauseam.
Modders WILL find a way to utilize it if any hint of the addition is in the RAWs
there should be atleast a [NO_WASTE] tagYes, we need this...
there should be atleast a [NO_WASTE] tag
Stalin only had the people with influence who opposed him killed.Go read Robert Conquest.
This would also add some potential besides infections. For example, in adventure mode, cutting open someones stomach, pulling their intestines out, and squeezing them at the enemies face so as to use them as a waste gun.
He's just showing different ways to get waste out of the creatures, it's an addition which could be included with sewage.This would also add some potential besides infections. For example, in adventure mode, cutting open someones stomach, pulling their intestines out, and squeezing them at the enemies face so as to use them as a waste gun.
I'm not sure you read the OP.
He's just showing different ways to get waste out of the creatures, it's an addition which could be included with sewage.This would also add some potential besides infections. For example, in adventure mode, cutting open someones stomach, pulling their intestines out, and squeezing them at the enemies face so as to use them as a waste gun.
I'm not sure you read the OP.
I think the point sonerohi was trying to make, though in a quite silly way, was that the 'guts' body part should contain filth if it is indeed added. This could deepen the wound system, as it could cause massive infection should the guts be pierced and filth leak out internally.
Shh, I'm trying to salvage something out of this. :PI think the point sonerohi was trying to make, though in a quite silly way, was that the 'guts' body part should contain filth if it is indeed added. This could deepen the wound system, as it could cause massive infection should the guts be pierced and filth leak out internally.
Of course, he could have said that, but no. He went with "waste gun".
Just, how will dirty water act if it comes in contact with clean water?Let me answer your question by asking you a question.
Maybe pumped into an aquiferThat would just as well contaminate the whole aquifer... Not to mention that you can't pump something into an aquifer without pressurized pumps, and the DF kind is not pressurized. Using night soil as fertilizer is common practice in every developed economy before the IR.
I'm totally for any kind of excrements, and I don't quite get it how theres no problem with cutting people open and preparing their intestines while they are still partially alive or equally weird and brutal stuff is no problem, but common shit is.
I totally want to organize a sewage system together with automated field fertilization and drainage.
I understand some people don't want it, but some people also don't want sieges or dwarfs eating or skill rust, etc.
Just, how will dirty water act if it comes in contact with clean water?
Now I want sewage. You made it dwarfy.I'm totally for any kind of excrements, and I don't quite get it how theres no problem with cutting people open and preparing their intestines while they are still partially alive or equally weird and brutal stuff is no problem, but common shit is.
I totally want to organize a sewage system together with automated field fertilization and drainage.
I understand some people don't want it, but some people also don't want sieges or dwarfs eating or skill rust, etc.
Just, how will dirty water act if it comes in contact with clean water?
THIS IS AN EXCELLENT QUESTION AND THE REASON WHY I MADE THIS THREAD.
I do not know. I suppose every 1/7th of a filth tile could contaminate a full 7/7 water tile, or such, with filth washing down the sewer's flow. It depends on how Toady goes ahead with liquid combining code, something which he has had on the to-do list for quite some time. I would rather like to see filthy water dilute out to nothingness given a large enough receiving body. Dwarven waste treatment plants anyone? I can see it now, massive embark-tile wide cisterns constantly filling and pumping with a precise recipe of filth and fresh water, carefully measured out in reservoirs, that completely neutralizes the filth before it is pumped back into the fresh water system so many fathoms above.
Shh, I'm trying to salvage something out of this. :PI think the point sonerohi was trying to make, though in a quite silly way, was that the 'guts' body part should contain filth if it is indeed added. This could deepen the wound system, as it could cause massive infection should the guts be pierced and filth leak out internally.
Of course, he could have said that, but no. He went with "waste gun".
No...Shh, I'm trying to salvage something out of this. :PI think the point sonerohi was trying to make, though in a quite silly way, was that the 'guts' body part should contain filth if it is indeed added. This could deepen the wound system, as it could cause massive infection should the guts be pierced and filth leak out internally.
Of course, he could have said that, but no. He went with "waste gun".
C'mon, not a one of you thought about stomping on someone's intestines to splatter everything out at someone?
2) Potash makers will become more useful. Change their title to Fertilizer maker, add a reaction to combine potash and manure to make fertilizer. You can also add the ability to fertilize crops with potash, manure or fertilizer.
3) I don't advocate giving adventurers the ability to squeeze one out whenever they want. Consider it abstracted into traveling. However, adventurers exploring sewers should have the option of flinging poo.
After catching up with this thread, I have thought of a few additional reasons to implement poop...
It would be impossible to pick it up and throw at people.
After catching up with this thread, I have thought of a few additional reasons to implement poop...
Filth. Implement filth. As a water contaminating flow. Not as poop, poo, feces, urine, pee or manure. It would be impossible to pick it up and throw at people. It would be impossible to extract from creatures. It would be impossible to found a religion on.
Such silliness. Anyway, my engineer brother-in-law tells me modern sewers are entirely gravity powered. Its going to be fun figuring out how to keep filth moving through the system without graded aqueducts.
After catching up with this thread, I have thought of a few additional reasons to implement poop...
Filth. Implement filth. As a water contaminating flow. Not as poop, poo, feces, urine, pee or manure. It would be impossible to pick it up and throw at people. It would be impossible to extract from creatures. It would be impossible to found a religion on.
It would be impossible to pick it up and throw at people.
Why? There are historic examples of dumping "filth" on people during sieges and so forth.
Seems a rather arbitrary and prudish restriction when we can pick up living creatures and hurl them at people but not poop.
As a new player I really don't see the harm in this being added at all. Though it would make perfect sense to have it as an init setting for those that don't want it or don't want to have to worry with designing fully working sewage system. It would be nice if the whole "producing waste" task happened only when dwarfs are on break. Somehow I could almost forgive my pump operator (saving the fort from excessSuch a wall of text about the presence of poo.magmafun) abandoning his job to attend to his bodily functions rather than just being bored with work.
I won't say too much since what I think has already been said over and over.
Although one of the things I found strange with Dwarf Fortress is that it is very easy to have a self sustainable fortress, the whole producing waste makes a self sustainable fortress just that bit harder to reach which seems fair to me. That said dealing with waste should be simple enough, either dig some holes and pit it with buckets or make a complex sewage system that can attend to the needs of a full population of boozers. I'm a bit iffy about animals creating filth though, they're already annoying enough with their children and their hatred of high frame rates.
2) Potash makers will become more useful. Change their title to Fertilizer maker, add a reaction to combine potash and manure to make fertilizer. You can also add the ability to fertilize crops with potash, manure or fertilizer.
3) I don't advocate giving adventurers the ability to squeeze one out whenever they want. Consider it abstracted into traveling. However, adventurers exploring sewers should have the option of flinging poo.
For 2) that makes sense and could open up the opportunity to have a lower class dwarf that has to live his life digging through sewage to fertilize crops. The benefits are higher crop yield but at the cost of higher rates of disease among these unhappy labourers (might even help to create a crime system where unhappy poorrat huntersdwarves turn to stealing).
As for 3) This seems to be the main thing people seem to have against the idea of sewage in dwarf fortress. I agree with the whole "only producing waste while travelling since it makes enough sense" I don't think the whole "crap as a weapon" should be added only since it just seems strange to throw sewage at something that lives in sewage. I doubt throwing some sludge at a monster is really gonna stun it enough to consider twice about biting off your face, might even make the thing angrier. Besides the point of the filith is to add an extra layer of thought to designing rather than something that is meant to be "hi-larious".
Well, the Egyptians put the scarab in a prominent place, because of its behaviour of making little balls of dung and rolling them around for its offspring. Also, crocodile dung was a popular ingredient in many medicines.After catching up with this thread, I have thought of a few additional reasons to implement poop...
Filth. Implement filth. As a water contaminating flow. Not as poop, poo, feces, urine, pee or manure. It would be impossible to pick it up and throw at people. It would be impossible to extract from creatures. It would be impossible to found a religion on.
Wow, you guys are really serious about this shit.I see what you did there.
Wow, you guys are really serious about this shit.I see what you did there.
Bottom line is that if it goes in, it should go in just like any other feature. Fully implemented. There should be no prudish artificial limitations on it, just put it in correctly or not at all. Its not for you to say what people can or cannot do in their game.
Speaking of which, is that planned? It would be incredible to tip your arrows from a bottle of Forgotten Beast blood, making them Arrows of Face-Melting +1.Well, we have all these extracts like golden salve and gnomeblight for a reason, i believe. And IIRC Toady mentioned something like this in his notes about future of poisons.
Wow, you guys are really serious about this shit.I see what you did there.
There's no need to get anal about this.
Watch this space. I'll MAKE a fort with a sewer in .06 just to smite you haters. XD
Sewer management would be an evolving challenge that increases with size and complexity along with your fortress; plus stuff might end up living in there, giving you a reason to have an army even if you wall yourself off from the world.
On the flipside, we'd probably have to wait until liquid mixing is implemented, and more official purification things are made. Throw all the blood, corpses, and trash into the sewer, throw down some oil and booze, set the whole thing on fire. Why not.
Sewer management would be an evolving challenge that increases with size and complexity along with your fortress; plus stuff might end up living in there, giving you a reason to have an army even if you wall yourself off from the world.
On the flipside, we'd probably have to wait until liquid mixing is implemented, and more official purification things are made. Throw all the blood, corpses, and trash into the sewer, throw down some oil and booze, set the whole thing on fire. Why not.
I'd just like to chime in and say that I would approve of more liquids, sewage being one. Oil would be another. Hell, mercury might even be fun.Achievement unlocked: Master Necromancer
It would be nice to have a sewage system just as somewhere to put all the damn vomit, pus, and blood.
And also, then pour it on your enemies. Then pour oil on them. And then lava. And then water.
I recall Toady is interested in taking some of those farming suggestions and working them into the game. Hauling buckets of filth to farm plots seems like a perfectly good means of fertilizing.
i'd love to see a quote supporting that. and if this sounded like sarcasm, it's not.
I like fertilizer, animal tracking and sewers. I dislike potty breaks. This is an example of realism that I think has a lot of potential for trouble. Potty breaks in adventure mode might be realistic, but there are immersion issues there. He he he, I mean in the sense of the player being kicked out of their groove. The other kind of immersion wouldn't be so bad, because sewers are common adventure environments. In dwarf mode, dwarves already take a lot of time out for self-maintenance, and this would be a more senseless kind, compared to something like eating.
QuoteQuote from: TormyAny plans to make farming more difficult?Quote from: Kilo24How difficult do you want farming (and feeding a fortress in general) to be, both for an experienced player trying to get everything working and for a new player learning the ropes? Will trading be able to wholly replace a dwarven fortress food industry at home?Quote from: Kogan LoloklamWill the new villages result in greater amounts of farmland required to feed individuals? If so, will there be "farmers caravans" that come to the fortress with food you can buy?
Nothing specific beyond the new dev page has been settled. I think having dwarves outside the fortress yet associated to the fortress might end up being the focus of food production for established forts, so it might often come down to surviving the first years, and you shouldn't just be able to blast out the necessary food with a random plot you plunk down somewhere. In a more isolated fort (settled on a glacier in the middle of nowhere, say), with no outside dwarves, it should be more work to support 100 dwarves. The new balance in adventure mode would require, say, 60 or so of them to be fairly dedicated underground food-workers, though the ratio hasn't been established for underground agriculture yet. A large dwarven fortress-city with expansive aboveground and underground offscreen settlements probably won't have a lot of food production onscreen, and you'd be engaged with near-constant trade/taxes/etc. with your offscreen buddies. There would need to be conversions between edible offscreen/onscreen resources, because in adventure mode you'd got people eating hundreds of items a year and in dwarf mode it is 8 or whoever. I don't like the feel of dwarf taking a barrel full of plump helmets to eat per sitting, or even referring to the food in those terms, but there's weirdness any way you do it, I think.Quote from: Kilo24How important will farming be, both for a NPC settlement and for a fortress? Will it be a flat-out necessity for large cities/fortresses, or can hunting and/or fishing in a reasonably wildlife-heavy place be sufficient?
I think it'll be necessary for large cities that are inhabited by people that need to eat a normal amount or else starve in some weeks. Goblins might not fall in that category. A human capital would likely only be supportable with farming, though I'd consider any real world counter-examples from the right period. What were the biggest fishing/hunting-fed settlements back then (that didn't also get a lot food from crops and livestock -- theirs or otherwise)? Does the answer change much if livestock is included but not crops?Quote from: NW_Kohaku[when] crops can actually be differentiated significantly, how many crops would you start allowing? Instead of having a dozen plants everywhere (and one for each of Good, Evil, and Savage), can we get tropical-jungle-on-silty-loam-specific fruits where it's possible for one fort to see an entirely different set of crops for its whole existence than another fort?
Sure, I'd prefer to have more. I'm not sure what the underground distinctions are going to be though.QuoteQuote from: EdurenSo will there be a way to harvest crops from these new fields? Will taking from them make the owners hostile if you are caught?Quote from: dree12I see that the new farms look like shrubs. Will we be able to gather[p] those shrubs? Because that seems a little overkill, because it can feed 200 dwarves each year if they regrow.
You likely won't be able to found a dwarf fortress in the human villages, but yeah, they are just plants. Once you can grab plants in adv mode, they will be available, although whatever farming changes go in will likely make them not as useful a lot of the time.Quote from: XenxeJudging by the shear amount of farmland for those villages posted in the screenshots does this imply any farming changes like making things take longer to grow?
I'll most likely be matching plants up roughly with whatever real-world analogs there are for the humans when I get to the actual farming updates. I'm not sure about dwarven crops.
hopefully in the future dwarves will have some mechanisms to try and attend to all of their needs in one break, example: a dwarf gets thirsty and stops for a drink, and since he's taking a break, despite his hunger meter not being in the red yet, he stops by the food stockpile to grab a bite. similarly he can go for a breakfast and a morning drink after waking up, and possibly washing that kobold blood splatter from his beard and taking a leak in the communal latrine before going to work
this seems material for a new suggestion, though, have you addressed this in any of your megathreads, kohaku? if not i may start a new one...
You'd be able to drink the blood of your enemies and then piss on their corpse. Who doesn't want that?
dwarves all having asynchronus schedules due to never seeing the sun, anyway.
but humans all live outside on the sunThat seems uncomfortable.
I don't see the need nor fun in adventurer mode bathroom breaks. I can see dwarves needing to swing by the shrub or latrine once every few drinks or meals, and as always, support init.txt or worldgen disabling. I've already spilled the details in the OP, but it bears some repetition after nigh a year.
[In response to a list of suggestions for livestock, including one being "fertilizer"]
4. They just drop it everywhere? Everyone will might be doing it after a while... night soil, and so on. But it's a dangerous door to open, especially if the room on the other side is full. If a god turns you into a horse in adventure mode, would you suddenly start dropping the bomb?
I don't see the need nor fun in adventurer mode bathroom breaks. I can see dwarves needing to swing by the shrub or latrine once every few drinks or meals, and as always, support init.txt or worldgen disabling. I've already spilled the details in the OP, but it bears some repetition after nigh a year.
I had a dream last night in which I was playing a version of DF that had excretory functions in. Then suddenly I was in a supermarket with my workmates and the cast of Battlestar Galactica throwing poop over the aisles. I woke up retching.
Sooooo, no faeces in DF, plz.
Or does it not even matter, because you won't even read the response to your post?
Or does it not even matter, because you won't even read the response to your post?
I did a long reply to this, but deleted most of it because I can't be bothered getting into an internet pissing contest. The one thing I will say is, the part of your post I have quoted is a pretty twatty thing to say (and actually makes me less likely to read your posts, so well done for the own goal there).
I read every post that replies to me, but I'm not particularly interested in engaging with someone that can't be civil, or jumps to assumptions without actually knowing anything about me.
I'd rather first have non-player entities eating and drinking before they start producing poop and pee. :-\
ps. please moderate yourself, this is not constructive. >:(
I'd rather first have non-player entities eating and drinking before they start producing poop and pee. :-\
ps. please moderate yourself, this is not constructive. >:(
Well that's where our views digress, I suppose. I think keeping track of 200 dwarves individual bi-monthly solid and liquid leavings becomes a serious CPU chore and not a lot of fun (cat poop in my hallways? NOT ON THE MICROCLINE TILE!), and given the alterative of playing with flow dynamics in sewer design, I advocate the latter. It should be possible to abstract tanning, alchemical and agricultural sewage inputs into buckets of filth rather than specifically jugs of urine or barrels of manure. I understand that you want a very advanced agriculture simulation and keeping the two seperate will be important for the nutrient cycle, but in a compromise with computing limits and player sensibilities, I think abstracting it to filth flows is the way to go.
That said, I'd honestly just as soon not have a liquid that you really could drown a goblin in, but I suppose it is necessary to have such a thing if we want to make a player seriously consider sewer construction.I have sewer in my fortress. Filth implementation is useful for farming (and "I want to kill x in horrible way" people), but not necessary for sewers.
To be frank, I think the main reason why sewage ought to be in is that irl sewage disposal is massively important in the establishment of civilisation. You can't form big, healthy cities without sewers. Knowing where the water will eventually end up is almost as important to know where it comes from.Agreed! It seems a distant goal, but sanitation would be a fantastic challenge for that fortress that has everything. If the Romans did it, could my industrious dwarves? Having one's own latrine would make for a happy thought, while waiting in line for the public facility would be a good chance for striking up a conversation with a friend and improving social skills. Poo also makes good fertilizer, and all those animals running around pooping would add a reason to have dwarves dedicated to cleaning. Cleaning isn't really easy. You should be able to be a legendary cleaner.
That wouldn't do anything except make useless 'dwarven eggs' that need to be quantum-dumped.If I recall, the result of modding the egg's shell to be a liquid was a spatter of contaminant sitting on the floor rather than an egg. Could work?
I doubt dwarves can create life... not even implying the philosophical problems, a reaction-produced child would have no genetics information.
I doubt dwarves can create life... not even implying the philosophical problems, a reaction-produced child would have no genetics information.
I doubt dwarves can create life... not even implying the philosophical problems, a reaction-produced child would have no genetics information.You can always include a few drops of blood of various persons in the recipe... Or alternatively consider it a homunculus/golem/living doll like Pinocchio etc. Plenty of options in mythology.
Considering that DF is a management sim regarding medieval-esque civilization, I think waste management is honestly an incredibly essential part of it.
There should be an init function to disable it, sure, but it shouldn't be ignored. What's an adventure story without a trek through the monster infested city sewers?
This guy makes a good point. Let's have those latrines.StuffMoar stuff