Are creatures automatically immune to their own secretions? Couldn't we mod dwarves to secrete a toxic substance which harms them if not removed regularly? Then we'd need to design a chamber to flush said secretion away for disposal...
and thus we modded in poop.
You know if he does ever break down and add it in the forums will be awash with:
A. Thank you posts from people who love it.
B. Angry posts from people who hate it.
C. Argument posts between the two.
D. Befuddled posts by newbies unable to grasp the system.
E. Technical posts by people who think he did it wrong.
F. Incoherent posts by people who are stupid and think they hold one of the above positions but really just should not be on the internet.
i'd hate that, i dont want my dwarves literally covered in shit, shitting all the time and everywhereWell it would only happen at regular intervals, not constantly, and they would immediately go 'dispose' of it.
that summarizes every controversial discussion on the internet, the most current examples on the forums being the new farming mud requirements and the ramp\channel additionYes. I know.
Well it would only happen at regular intervals, not constantly, and they would immediately go 'dispose' of it.hm... i don't think that's possible yet :\
Now imagine a herd of animals in your fortress' bedrooms and a dining room... 100+ cows, dogs and such.
SEE THE PATTERN?!
Can I just go on record as saying that I'm far more offended by the vomit in game than I ever would be by poop? The vomit doesn't really serve a purpose, while poop can serve a lot of purposes. Fertilizer for one. One way of showing what sort of creatures are in your area. Setting up a dedicated sewer system would be awesome.Interesting stance.
Seriously, why do people get so offended by the idea of poop, but are perfectly fine with vomit?
Will what's wrong with just having animal poop for use in farming? It doesn't have to go has far as making it a liquid so you can pour it on elves and goblins. o_0
Can I just go on record as saying that I'm far more offended by the vomit in game than I ever would be by poop? The vomit doesn't really serve a purpose, while poop can serve a lot of purposes. Fertilizer for one. One way of showing what sort of creatures are in your area. Setting up a dedicated sewer system would be awesome.Interesting stance.
Seriously, why do people get so offended by the idea of poop, but are perfectly fine with vomit?
Vomit and blood share the same utility. Are you offended by blood in the game?
Like I said before, of the infinite interesting real considerations that could be added, why the fascination with this.
The answer is reason enough not to do it.
I think it says something about me that I saw "feces vote" and clicked on it immediately.
But yeah, I wouldn't mind it being included; just as long as it would have be shut off upon install. It's at the player's discretion to allow defecation.
i think it is interesting how evenly split the community is. looks like there is no real lead for wither side.True, but if you look at the polls, the Yes side is winning marginally, as it is the first & third option combined.
I vote no because I like these forums and I don't want them flooded with feces humor. The fact that this is about feces specifically rather than general filth makes arguments towards realism suspicious. Half the existing workshops would produce hazardous waste at a much quicker pace than a dwarf's daily poo break.
I vote no because I like these forums and I don't want them flooded with feces humor. The fact that this is about feces specifically rather than general filth makes arguments towards realism suspicious. Half the existing workshops would produce hazardous waste at a much quicker pace than a dwarf's daily poo break.
Right. The fact that people gravitate specifically towards fecal matter is a tad suspicious.
I vote no because I like these forums and I don't want them flooded with feces humor. The fact that this is about feces specifically rather than general filth makes arguments towards realism suspicious. Half the existing workshops would produce hazardous waste at a much quicker pace than a dwarf's daily poo break.
Right. The fact that people gravitate specifically towards fecal matter is a tad suspicious.
I'm sure most people here are actually refering to sewage in general, and that it's the title of the thread that makes them (or rather, us) use the term 'feces' instead.
Also, just because those games handled feces and the like poorly doesn't mean that DF will. And as most of DF's features are automized, there's no reason why sewage/feces wouldn't be, too.
And lastly I'd like to point out that most, if not all, of the people here support the option to turn it off so those who prefer the regular DF feel can play without it.
As to how the nay sayers got the impression that the yay sayers want crap in the game so that they can smear it on their faces or fill this board with stupid stories of what happend with it.
Its like drug use. Ok put it in when everything interesting is already in. Just put an INI setting to turn it off.
I'm pretty sure that the term 'sewage' also entails other form of waste.
The fact that you're only arguing about something so trivial as my proposal for an option to turn it off only shows that you really don't have any counter-points to the numerous arguments I've already made.
The moral of the story here is, as I've expressed before, that simply because it's possible to use features in unbelievably bizarre, perverse, and childish ways doesn't mean that the features should be condemned for it.
As to how the nay sayers got the impression that the yay sayers want crap in the game so that they can smear it on their faces or fill this board with stupid stories of what happend with it.
Because I've seen countless posts about stuff like that. Hell, it's in the OP in this thread.QuoteIts like drug use. Ok put it in when everything interesting is already in. Just put an INI setting to turn it off.
This is the worst approach to the question possible. Both of these points are designed to completely curtail any actual discussion of it. After all, why discuss whether or not a feature is actually worthwhile when you can just say "make it optional" and pretend that that makes it good?
Hooloovoo!
Silly Americans, its spelt faeces. And no, there is no reason for it. Theres already poison (i think its implemented?) so just rename it if you want to play with shit.
I don't think anybody's talking about the water used when people take baths or wash off a wall.Actually, I, for one, would not mind this.
YES! (i would use it)Well, no we know there are at least 183 people here, on B12 forums who have a shit fetish.
- 149 (42.1%)
yes, but i would dissable it if it was an init option (all yes voters are assumed to be for an init option, only vote here if you think it should be included but you would not use it)
- 34 (9.6%)
QuoteYES! (i would use it)Well, no we know there are at least 183 people here, on B12 forums who have a shit fetish.
- 149 (42.1%)
yes, but i would dissable it if it was an init option (all yes voters are assumed to be for an init option, only vote here if you think it should be included but you would not use it)
- 34 (9.6%)
I'm not against it philosophically or ethically, but I don't think the current system could handle it.
...
Once the fundamental systems of DF have caught up to the point where fecal matter is actually feasible, it should be modded in. Hell, if it doesn't wreck the framerate too terribly, I may give it a shot myself. But until then I just don't think it's worth the trouble, and I definitely don't think it should be in vanilla.
No, this is a shitty idea.
Me too, Vattic.
Also...I'm not against it philosophically or ethically, but I don't think the current system could handle it.
...
Once the fundamental systems of DF have caught up to the point where fecal matter is actually feasible, it should be modded in. Hell, if it doesn't wreck the framerate too terribly, I may give it a shot myself. But until then I just don't think it's worth the trouble, and I definitely don't think it should be in vanilla.
So, why is that a "no"? Who says it would be implemented now?
The key phrases there are "should be modded in" and "definitely don't think it should be in vanilla."
The suggestion is for feces to be added to the game. I definitely think people who want feces should be able to mod them in, but I don't think they are a good idea for vanilla DF, init option or no. Therefore I voted no, I don't think Toady should add them to DF, and I don't think they are something that should be considered while planning systems. They should be something for modders to add once the basic systems would support it.
There is an awful lot that needs to be made available to get this to work.
For me the "overflowing forums with shit trap threads" excuse is just a half-baked lame excuse for people being impeded by their own repressoins and taboos about a doubtlessly bothersome (if not awkward), but nevertheless absurdly relevant aspect of life. ???You know most of those taboos and repressions are cultural and therefore not something you can just ignore because, heck, people is raised with them? Or, you know, people doesn't *want* to get rid of them?
and i think it is pointless/unethical/gross etc.)
For me the "overflowing forums with shit trap threads" excuse is just a half-baked lame excuse for people being impeded by their own repressoins and taboos about a doubtlessly bothersome (if not awkward), but nevertheless absurdly relevant aspect of life. ???You know most of those taboos and repressions are cultural and therefore not something you can just ignore because, heck, people is raised with them? Or, you know, people doesn't *want* to get rid of them?
2D forts would be quite impossible as well (I can only imagine a sewage system going on a lower z-level, connecting to residential and working areas and leading to a river or magma or some stinkhole), and the level of management and objects would put additional stress on both the players and the game. Also depending on implementation it might hinder "vertical apartment style" housing (or not).
I think this should be moddable in, but not part of vanilla. Perhaps linked to syndromes, having creatures drop pools of poison, that can be modded into feces if modders desire so.
It still does not follow that therefore feces are good. 60% of voters do not want feces in this game. these things could be implemented without them.
Um... the statistics, AT THE TOP OF THIS PAGE, as of the time of this post, show that only 46.9% of respondants are against the idea; the remaining 53.1% do want it; a small portion of that say that they would not regularly use it.Reinvent and reinterpret how you like, but the fact remains that if they actually wanted it they'd use it. Ergo, 60% of voters on this forum do not want it, a small proportion of which is willing to put up with it if they can turn it off.
As I said, implementing this would have fringe benefits for everyoneAnd less-than-fringe detriments for 60% of the people voting. Fortunately there's no reason feces would have to be added along with these features. Just because you want feces to throw doesn't mean anything remotely related has to include it.
All I want to know is....Why? Why is having your dwarves crapping being a game mechanic so important to you? Can't you just be content with digging a canal beneath their bedrooms, channeling out a tile and calling it a day?Nope. I have my whole fort in pool of bizarre mix of bloods, goo and vomit. They are literally knee-deep in it. I'd probably die from just a smell of it if would be one of my dorfs.
Um... the statistics, AT THE TOP OF THIS PAGE, as of the time of this post, show that only 46.9% of respondants are against the idea; the remaining 53.1% do want it; a small portion of that say that they would not regularly use it.Reinvent and reinterpret how you like, but the fact remains that if they actually wanted it they'd use it. Ergo, 60% of voters on this forum do not want it, a small proportion of which is willing to put up with it if they can turn it off.QuoteAs I said, implementing this would have fringe benefits for everyoneAnd less-than-fringe detriments for 60% of the people voting. Fortunately there's no reason feces would have to be added along with these features. Just because you want feces to throw doesn't mean anything remotely related has to include it.
I can't believe how popular this thread is.A proper sewage system was a major part of what made a city great at this tech level. It's a considerable engineering hurdle, especially underground. And it allows the possibility for authentic military endeavors utilizing infection. To many people, that trumps the "poop is icky" argument.
All I want to know is....Why? Why is having your dwarves crapping being a game mechanic so important to you? Can't you just be content with digging a canal beneath their bedrooms, channeling out a tile and calling it a day?
Really, there are more better things(in my opinion) to implement before Toady even considers putting in poo.
Finishing the army arc, persistent/active world, leaving a fort and coming back as an adventurer or taking control of it again after doing something else and other stuff.
The INIT option doesn't necessarily mean yes. Its the more reasonable middle ground... it is also for people who don't care as much either way pick. (Disclaimer: Generalization does not apply to everyone.)
i would like to point out that the third option is worded in such a way that people who vote for it think that it *should* be included, but that they would turn it off. i specifically worded it that way for a reason. there is no other reason to vote for option 3. if that is not your sentiment and you voted for option 3 is suggest you change your vote.Yea, biased choices engineered to favor the 'yes'.
actually i kind of agree with you qwerty. if anything this vote is slightly biased towards the "no" side.Yeah, because two thirds of the options are 'yes', one of them in a weaselly way that actually means no when you think about it except when you do. 9.9 Confusing options make everything fairer.
I estimate that maybe 5% of the NO! votes are "No, I don't want Toady to stop working on other improvements to add this shit, but would be okay if he waited until a better time to add it"I estimate a 50% probability that you pulled this statistic out of the same place this feature would have stuff coming out of.
NO f*** NO!I have enough trouble cleaning out elven blood and vomit let alone feces.
...
2d forts? Are we still in 0.23?
And sorry, but even if your cultural taboos and repressions tell you to pretend feces don't exist, you can't pretend they don't when a cholera epidemic happens. Or some funnny e. Coli, or hepatitis B, so on.... If someone really wants to live by their taboos I pity them.
So its better to have a yes, yes and no vote stacked in favor of yes?
So its better to have a yes, yes and no vote stacked in favor of yes?
If the question was honest it would read.
Yes, I think its cool to be annoying.
No, lets grow up
and
No, but if you do add it make it an init option so I don't have to ever be bothered with it.
This is a game. A game supposed to be fun. Having to spend my gametme building infrastructure so the shit can flow does not fits into my definition of fun. Go gnaw on your feces somewhere else.
This game also have no reproductive organs. Oh, and creatures breed via magical spores. This is also a fantasy strategy game, not a real life simulation of flowing shit. Go to the toilet and play with your so desired liquid there.
universally, feces concidered to be taboo
beside 200-something odball fece obsessed players screaming about how they want to be able to drown people in their shit
It's just gross and does not really fits the whole high fantasy feel.Unlike that completely-not-gross vomit cover each second dorf already has. And knee-deep pool of vomit-goo-blood in the fort, near dining table.
Dwarf fortress already has vomit, blood, rotting corpse infections, limb-ripping violence, hints of fucking cannibalism ...And dont forget about +kitten leather thong+.
universally, feces concidered to be taboo.Actually, my own research suggests that the vast majority of people produce feces on a daily or near-daily basis.
It's just grossA matter of opinion. While nobody (so far as I know) is suggesting that it's pleasant, many find it a total non-issue.[/quote]and does not really fits the whole high fantasy feel.[/quote]Dwarf Fortress isn't really high fantasy. It's closest to Sword and Sorcery, I'd say, but it doesn't really fit any conventional subgenre perfectly.
concidering staggering amount of people who are seemingly obsessed with including feces into the game,I have noticed neither any obsession nor any staggering.
justYou could suggest that the dividing of the yes votes into two categories, effectively making it seem like there are less yesses, is indeed a detriment. But I'd reckon most folks know how to add the two percentages together if the want to see how many total vote yes.
kicking the thing in wont really solve anything. As vote(...What the hell. That seems kind of biased against a yes, dont you think?)
I see absolutely no reason to introduce feces into the gameread some of this (and other) threads. There are plenty of good suggestions tied to this.
Unsurprisigly, didnt ToadyOne stated few times that he will not addlike feces or sex into game to keep game kid-friendlyNo, he didn't. I believe he did say once that it wasn't a priority, but of course the scope of what is heavily prioritized is far smaller than the scope of what is eventually planned.
This is a game. A game supposed to be fun. Having to spend my gametme building infrastructure so the shit can flow does not fits into my definition of fun. Go gnaw on your feces somewhere else.Building infrastructure does fill some people's definition of fun.
This game also have no reproductive organs. Oh, and creatures breed via magical spores. This is also a fantasy strategy game, not a real life simulation of flowing shit. Go to the toilet and play with your so desired liquid there.To be honest, I'd like it of the breeding by spores was replaced by actual sex, even if it's as simple as two dwarves sharing a square (hopefully in a bed) for a few ticks. It shouldn't really be explicit (not because I think there's something inherently wrong with that, but because it would add almost nothing).
I have no idea why people consider sex less kid-friendly than horrific, limb-ripping violence.I believe this is the result of an essentially Victorian repression. It reached the states after it was ending on across the pond. Give it another decade or two, and the US should be like Europe in that regard.
Hollywood would be my guess. Thank You, USA.While Hollywood certainly doesn't encourage healthy attitudes towards sex, they're not exactly huge proponents of censorship either. I'd say their occasionally vulgar attempts at titillation are an outgrowth of their cultural schema, rather than the other way around.
beside 200-something odball fece obsessed players screaming about how they want to be able to drown people in their shit
Well, that's just name calling. I've covered the fact that most people actually aren't obsessed with throwing poo/drowning creatures in it, but it seems to be a commonly held belief that if you want a working sewage system you must be wrong in the head, somehow...
Hi!beside 200-something odball fece obsessed players screaming about how they want to be able to drown people in their shit
Well, that's just name calling. I've covered the fact that most people actually aren't obsessed with throwing poo/drowning creatures in it, but it seems to be a commonly held belief that if you want a working sewage system you must be wrong in the head, somehow...
While I agree with your statement there, it is also undeniable that there have been quite a lot of very immature posts surrounding these threads, showing clearly that there are people within the community all too eager to run around with a turd on a stick, so to speak.
And while I personally find the idea of sewer management quite intriguing, having the chain of "apply magma - slaughter the kittens - murder the elves" extended by "drown it in shit" makes a very dire prospect indeed. While DF is definitely the best game I know, the community here adds a lot to it, with the opportunity to exchange our experiences and have fun together. But if coming here means getting flooded with humor about excrements that would make Freud happy, it is no longer fun for me. Or putting it metaphorical - I could enjoy managing it, but I definitely don't want to taste it.
Deathworks
I'm also against it being in the init. I play vanilla because that's how the developer envisions his game is best enjoyed. If it, god forbid, did become default I would put up with it because that's how Toady wants the game. It's the same reason I don't disable my dwarves eating, drinking or sleeping.
But I don't want it. And I hope sincerely it's not added.
Let me stress again that I do consider it an interesting addition that makes sense for the game and would be an enrichment. It is just that I feel the damage that will be done in its environment outweighs the benefit in that case.
Deathworks
One strange thing in this thread is how all these zealots on their crusade against poop quote Toady the Great saying "there shall be no shit" but noone has has a link there. I couldn't find it with search.Well, because he definitely said something like that about either feces or sex/genitalia. It was forum post, IIRC. Someone should volonteer to look through all his posts for last 2 years and write down everything he said about the subject.
morrigi, please keep politics to the general discussion forums. they do not belong here.
if you want to start a (civil) political discussion start a thread there and send me a PM with the link.
So what, what's this? Asking if we should add fecal matter to DF? With all due respect, my dwarves are currently covered in vomit, snow, water, mud, blood, their own blood, magic blood, elf blood, and honey. I don't need another layer on top of all that.No, its asking if we should add proper way to manage all this waste. So they will wash off all these layers of stuff along with other byproducts down to sewages.
Okay, here's a question.I would be totally cool with that. It covers the parts that matter, while skirting the part s which are apparently unbearably revolting to some. This actually seems like an ideal solution to me.
For those of you who are interested in it from a waste management perspective. How would you feel if, instead of being referred to as feces or whatever, it was labeled as "wastewater" and grouped in with other things like mine tailings etc?
Because yeah. I like the challenge, I REALLY don't like the invitation to immaturity, and I'm a lot more happier with people on the forums going "Cover the elves with wastewater!" than I am with "Cover the elves with feces!".
For those of you who are interested in it from a waste management perspective. How would you feel if, instead of being referred to as feces or whatever, it was labeled as "wastewater" and grouped in with other things like mine tailings etc?I believe this approach was already approved by most of people who want it. There was according thread in df mode section with discussion on sewage, where exactly this was proposed.
also consider that this poll is not asking *how* it should be implemented, just *if*. assume that it would be implemented like you want it (generic "filth," specific "poo" etc.) please take all the discussions on how to the appropriate threads.
if the system's there, it'll be used, and I don't like what most of it gets used for by an immature player.
Why would what other people do with the game hurt your DF experience?
What do you imagine would happen if Boatmurdered had feces as a feature?Assuming it was still mixed in with the death, slaughter, fire, miasma, vomit, elephants, and magma, I reckon it'd be just fine.
Would you like that to be the introduction new players were given to the game?
What do you imagine would happen if Boatmurdered had feces as a feature?
Would you like that to be the introduction new players were given to the game?
For those of you who are interested in it from a waste management perspective. How would you feel if, instead of being referred to as feces or whatever, it was labeled as "wastewater" and grouped in with other things like mine tailings etc?
@ZangiCan't be arsed to, I'm on a forum on the internet, arguing. Well, I'll go another way.
you are making an uniformed and reactionary statement, without looking into the available facts. you are also refusing to support your argument. please take a critical reasoning class (or at least read the wikipedia article on the subject) before your next post, so that you can understand why you are wrong.
First the vote is unbiased. This is not a random-choice poll, and the argument is pure phallacy.1st, eh, guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.
Second if in your limited little world you can't possibly relate disease outbreaks to sewage management you need to read some stuff about urban saniation.
Third, toady did mention manure and urine as sources of possible future gunpowder in the latest DFtalk, so at least animal dejects are not out of his scope.
@ZangiCan't be arsed to, I'm on a forum on the internet, arguing. Well, I'll go another way.
you are making an uniformed and reactionary statement, without looking into the available facts. you are also refusing to support your argument. please take a critical reasoning class (or at least read the wikipedia article on the subject) before your next post, so that you can understand why you are wrong.First the vote is unbiased. This is not a random-choice poll, and the argument is pure phallacy.1st, eh, guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.
Second if in your limited little world you can't possibly relate disease outbreaks to sewage management you need to read some stuff about urban saniation.
Third, toady did mention manure and urine as sources of possible future gunpowder in the latest DFtalk, so at least animal dejects are not out of his scope.
2nd and 3rd, I do not deny that this stuff can be used in a meaningful way.
But, I'm of the position that the DF Community will not be able to handle waste products in anywhere near a tasteful way.
You can say that this is not what we are here totalkargue about, but it is. The full implication of implementing feces and controlling the community so that the forums would not get out of hand with the 'I dropped Urist McBleeding into a vat of feces just so...' or whatever else have you with the imagination.
Can you truly say that some of the things players will 'brag' about or 'showcase' will not be considered NSFW? Moderation takes time, lots of it.
Do you think the DF Community and the associated add-ons of an implemented waste management system will not get out of hand?
Will this, we, the Community not make Toady One and ThreeToe regret it?
...Hah... civilized. Keep believing that.
Generic waste is one thing, but even if the main post was edited, look at the thread title...>.> It makes you wonder about what the OP really has in mind.
...Hah... civilized. Keep believing that.
You're fighting against the wrong idea. Read the main post again; this is only about a rather generic "Filth" fluid no worse or detailed that the contents of any sewer that Indana Jones or James Bond has crept through, and which would exist primarally so that it can be taken care of with sewer systems which, occasionally, would go horribly wrong, just like everything else in DF.
You've somehow taken a suggestion to add an optional, sanitized infrastructure layer to the game and turned it, in your mind, into a raging culture war with you and God on one side and the Liberal Media, 4Chan, and everyone else on the other.
I'm not telling you to change your mind, but consider taking a step back, a deep breath, and a quick re-read of the OP.
Eh, think what you will.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Generic waste is one thing, but even if the main post was edited, look at the thread title...>.>
Djohaal. Most of your replies involve criticizing other people's "irrational taboos" and showing an entirely zealotic behavior. And your custom title is "le poo"?Generic waste is one thing, but even if the main post was edited, look at the thread title...>.>
no comments...
I never could imagine sewer management was considered M rated.
On a broader, not-just-feces note, I think increasing the needs of your Dwarves beyond just "sleep, drink, eat, occasional vacation/party, then WORKING FOREVER" would make the game better. Cleaning the fortress' halls to keep the place glorious, various activities they could do when not working, like reading, listening to the storyteller guy in the main hall, or playing Dorf-basketball or whatever fun sport things Dorfs would do.THAT.
Waste is a huge problem - it could contaminate your water supply if you don't dump it proper, and just sticking it in a pit means you've either gotta walk REALLY far to get to the pit, or you've got a filthy, awful pit right next to your settlement. Having to deal with it - along with all the other myriad problems of just living someplace, and managing a group of people, not just automatons, working until they need maintenance in the form of sleep or booze or whatever - would be interesting.
Only the depraved do it out of place and time. Or talk about it more than necessary.I never could imagine sewer management was considered M rated.
Neither did I. It is as if defecation is a thing only the depraved do!
Actually, you wash a gaping cut with sewage water and survive to tell me the story please.You used this against me before, why are you using it again, and how is it related to disliking anything? Precisely those who dislike the stuff are more inclined to avoid it, not the opposite. You are being annoying on purpose.
[...]
for starters:
Pro/for:
drown elves in feces
adds depth to simulation
fun to manage
cool adventurer sewers
point of weakness in a fortress
[...]
What I do not understand is the concern some people have with what others will do in their fortresses.
Again why does what one person do a in a fort matter for what you do in a fort?...Postal 2 could be summarized as a game where you could stick a gun up the anus of a cat to use as a silencer; if Dwarf Fortress was summarized as a game that you could drown elves in shit, that would draw a good amount of people in who'd like doing that and alienate people who found it distasteful (i.e., quite a lot of people.) Never mind that there's a whole lot more to the game as a fantasy world simulator - the fact that it's possible (and that people are going on about it) implies that the developer cared about doing it enough to implement a number of crude possibilities, which associates him and his game with a number of other probably unwanted subculture associated with feces (Beavis and Butthead or the legions of other fecal humor.)
I know that I don't want to see an ASCII "2 Dwarves, 1 Cup" as synonymous with Dwarf Fortress, because the game has far more possibilities than that. ... I do care about what they boast about what they did with the game, because that gets tied to the game's image.
Both are adding in features which, while they are really important for accuracy in the world (sewer management, "cougar sign", and see the sheer tonnage of sexual references in culture, including the more veiled references in higher culture), simply treating them fairly and honestly will be a more dramatic step towards profanity than the majority of the other elements of culture do. To implement either is a question of what battles Toady's willing to fight to dissociate his game with scatological humor/overtly sexual subculture.
Pretty well put. It's a shame that that is the case, though. :/ I still think poop should be in and any resulting fight be taken on, as naive as that may sound.Thanks.
THAT'S NOT WHAT IS BEING SUGGESTED.Then the title, OP, and discussion resulting from them is misleading. And it should be clarified in the OP in a way that does not confuse it with a more specific system that would have the drawbacks we're chatting about. It's currently ambiguous enough to allow for multiple interpretations, unlike your quoted post. If your claim is the case, editing the OP at least or starting up a new topic without the misleading discussion would be in order to avoid confusion.
It's an abstract "Filth" fluid, people! It's nothing more explicit than that!
The only arguments I have seen thus far against bodily waste that actually show a problem from its implementation that cannot be remedied easily, or is in fact not a problem at all in my opinion, are of the kind posted by Kilo24 in the above post and Deathworks earlier. Kilo24 and Deathworks got a good point with the image of the game thing. I still think that this is not a strong enough reason to not put bodily waste into the game. I feel like it's giving in to the very things that I hate about many video games and society in general. Meh, this isn't the time or place to start some soap-box rant, but:
[...]
It shouldn't be that treating these features honestly and fairly would constitute a dramatic step towards profanity, although I understand that it probably would. This is something we as a community should fight against if it ever tries to occur, dammit! Whatevs... I feel like I've sorta blown things out of proportion now.
It doesn't matter if a person does post about a poo trap on the forum. You have the awesome ability to not click and read it. And if the forum community finds it poor taste, then it'll create posting about such contraptions as taboo and berate those that do. Bay12, is good at beratement, like most on line communities.
THAT'S NOT WHAT IS BEING SUGGESTED.
It's an abstract "Filth" fluid, people! It's nothing more explicit than that!
I really doubt someone is going to say "Hur, this game with no graphics lets you dump creatures in something called Filth! Lol!" instead of "Hur, I just T-Bag'd some n00b in HALO, BRO, Lol!".
Djohaal: I have repeatedly stated why feces have different connotations for me that are solely in the realm of the immature. And frankly, I regularly purchase online items from Japanese download shops that would probably make a lot of people here gross out and want to burn me on a stake or never talk to me again. Thus, I find the idea I would be a moral crusader quite amusing (especially since I am a genuine atheist).
However, since you suggested reading the OP, I want to return that suggestion right to you:[...]
for starters:
Pro/for:
drown elves in feces
adds depth to simulation
fun to manage
cool adventurer sewers
point of weakness in a fortress
[...]
Strange, isn't it, that the very first pro argument the OP mentions is the immature usage of feces, namely to drown elves in it. Given how you can (and some people already do that, quite successfully) drown elves in water or magma (if you don't care to loot the corpses), drowning them in feces adds no new option in that field accept saying: "Look mom, poo! Cool! Hahahaha!" There is no new genuine functionality to that. The more mature points only make up the next points (see the quote).
Why is the immature one listed first? Is it because the OP sees that as the core point (i.e. the OP is mostly interested in using it in an immature way)? Or may it just have come first to his mind because those suggesting it regularly refer to that application?
also consider that this poll is not asking *how* it should be implemented, just *if*. assume that it would be implemented like you want it (generic "filth," specific "poo" etc.) please take all the discussions on how to the appropriate threads.
if we handle it in a suitable way i am sure most of the issues could be avoided.Absolutely - I just have opinions on what ways are considered suitable, and my endorsement of the idea hinges upon that. Namely, I think that problems will arise if it's kept too explicit.
if there are lots of ways to generate "filth" other than at the loo then it will be much harder to associate "filth" with "shit". off the top of my head other things that could generate "filth" could be rotting corpses, medical waste, used animal bedding and any number of other potentially dirty things. i am mostly concerned with the aspects of waste management that are present in a large community, and having to manage their sources and destinations.Then you are generalizing the original premise of the thread from handling feces into handling waste in general. That's all right (though it still might merit a new topic); it's just pretty important that you clarify that that's what you're doing. A "feces system" carries some different connotations from a "waste system" (such as feces being modeled in a particularly distinct manner, which is not something Deathworks or I want) that people will probably miss until they start thinking seriously about it in a discussion.
and it drowning elves in unpleasant fluids is really causing you that much bother i will be the first to bow to the pressure and remove it, just to show that we can handle it.
And frankly, I regularly purchase online items from Japanese download shops that would probably make a lot of people here gross out and want to burn me on a stake or never talk to me again.Rapelay (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/hentai-game-reviews/rapelay.php)?
Well, it's obvious at this point that shit lovers want their fix at any cost. Any argument against shit is welcomed with stuff like "you limited moron! embrace shit! bend to my will because I say so!". I've never seen people being so annoying regarding bodily functions, and using the same arguments sexual deviants use to excuse their behaviors. (because don't tell me you never heard "(my)porn is shunned but violence is ALRIGHT! BAWWW")
Basically "accept our superior opinion just because", and using borderline demagogy to support it.
Almost no one is actually talking "waste". I am fine with "waste". "waste" is that generic green liquid that flows on movie sewers. But supporters are obviously having feces in mind. The topic title specifically talks feces, and the OP specifically talked about feces at first, hence why people are against feces, not sewage.
And when challenged about their opinions, people suddenly changes and goes "NO I MEANT SEWAGE".
Also notice how there are people here that went from "no shit" to "sewage is OK", but no single feces supporter has changed his mind. They just aren't willing to back up, they want shit yes or yes.
AND it's true that this topic is present in other threads, not limited to this one, that's why I am so annoyed with the topic.
If you want to move to SEWAGE only, change the topic accordingly, or you can't be taken seriously.
if we handle it in a suitable way i am sure most of the issues could be avoided. if there are lots of ways to generate "filth" other than at the loo then it will be much harder to associate "filth" with "shit". off the top of my head other things that could generate "filth" could be rotting corpses, medical waste, used animal bedding and any number of other potentially dirty things. i am mostly concerned with the aspects of waste management that are present in a large community, and having to manage their sources and destinations.
and it drowning elves in unpleasant fluids is really causing you that much bother i will be the first to bow to the pressure and remove it, just to show that we can handle it.
Quotealso consider that this poll is not asking *how* it should be implemented, just *if*. assume that it would be implemented like you want it (generic "filth," specific "poo" etc.) please take all the discussions on how to the appropriate threads.
See, now you're imparting motives to lucusLoC that seem a bit too sinister and far-reaching. I'm pretty sure he's not some kind of evil mastermind intent on besmirching the fair name of DF.
This is a big con. Not a 'how it gets implemented'
Well, it's obvious at this point that shit lovers want their fix at any cost. Any argument against shit is welcomed with stuff like "you limited moron! embrace shit! bend to my will because I say so!". I've never seen people being so annoying regarding bodily functions, and using the same arguments sexual deviants use to excuse their behaviors. (because don't tell me you never heard "(my)porn is shunned but violence is ALRIGHT! BAWWW")
Basically "accept our superior opinion just because", and using borderline demagogy to support it.
Almost no one is actually talking "waste". I am fine with "waste". "waste" is that generic green liquid that flows on movie sewers. But supporters are obviously having feces in mind. The topic title specifically talks feces, and the OP specifically talked about feces at first, hence why people are against feces, not sewage.
And when challenged about their opinions, people suddenly changes and goes "NO I MEANT SEWAGE".
Also notice how there are people here that went from "no shit" to "sewage is OK", but no single feces supporter has changed his mind. They just aren't willing to back up, they want shit yes or yes.
AND it's true that this topic is present in other threads, not limited to this one, that's why I am so annoyed with the topic.
If you want to move to SEWAGE only, change the thread title and vote accordingly, or you can't be taken seriously.
The topic's title is "Feces vote" and the pool is "Would you like feces in game", and I copypaste.
(because don't tell me you never heard "(my)porn is shunned but violence is ALRIGHT! BAWWW")what's your problem with porn? i find violence much less desirable than sex, and i think portrayal of the second is much less harmful for a child than the portrayal of violence... but I'm European, that's probably the problem
I don't know why people are obsessed with this. Any, Toady already said he wasn't going to do it. What's the point of a poll?
I don't know why people are obsessed with this. Any, Toady already said he wasn't going to do it. What's the point of a poll?
Any, Toady already said he wasn't going to do it.
There are no plans to add "night soil". Dwarves poop little pebbles which seemlessly disappear into the cavern floor, or they collect them and cherish them or something.
Do dwarves have water closets? Will we need to carefully craft "flushing" mechanisms to carry the unmentionables away?
There is currently no potty.
4. Manure, as a fertilizer.
4. They just drop it everywhere? Everyone will might be doing it after a while... night soil, and so on. But it's a dangerous door to open, especially if the room on the other side is full. If a god turns you into a horse in adventure mode, would you suddenly start dropping the bomb?
Toady: [...] I like the idea of being able to track things and find them, and pick up little kobold scats and dig around to see what they've been eating ... after a fashion, anyway.
Rainseeker: So there's no poo creatures either?
Toady: It was a close thing! Because it was literally a decision I had to make, going down this list, because in the Hidden Fun Stuff of course if you get the tentacle demons then you get a layer scattered with various filth on the ground; and there's brown filth and yellow filth and so on and it's not clearly stated but it's a material that I had to put in properties for right? So there's these hard-coded filth materials, and when I was going down the list, you know 'Do I want creatures made out of mud? Do I want creatures made out of vomit? Do I want creatures made out of glass?', there's all these hard-coded materials, and I was just like 'Yeah, yeah, yeah ... No ... No ...' on the filth. But there are creatures made out of the grime, and the grime material is the material that collects on your body slowly over time, and it's also the material that's used in swamp water, so there's this ... I just needed this material called 'grime' for these miscellaneous purposes, it's just crap, just stuff that collects over time and when a creature is made out of that it just says 'composed of grime and filth'. So if you want to call that 'poo' even though it's not it's possible for you to extend your imagination.
Toady: [...] But the kind of thing that's on the table is gunpowder, and the materials that you need for that are already in the game, I think. We've got brimstone, which is sulphur, and I don't remember if we have saltpetre, if it's there or not, but ... I guess you could do all kinds of things with manure and urine to make it, or you can find it in a crystalline form in the ground perhaps.
# PowerGoal153, THE CRACKS OF DOOM, (Future): You flee into the sewer with the baron's ring, but sliding in the muck, you drop it. Try as you might, you cannot locate the precious object in the town's filth.
I don't know why people are obsessed with this. Any, Toady already said he wasn't going to do it. What's the point of a poll?
This is a big con. Not a 'how it gets implemented'
That right there seems to imply that you think otherwise.
I think you misunderstood Zangi there. Zangi elaborated on the point I was making and which seems to have been rebutted by LucusLoC with reference to the OP stating that this discussion is NOT to be about how things get implemented. Although, I don't really think that LucuLoC was really rebutting that argument there, but probably referring to the discussion about using different terms/implementations - somehow this thread has gotten quite confusing (^_^;;
And frankly, I regularly purchase online items from Japanese download shops that would probably make a lot of people here gross out and want to burn me on a stake or never talk to me again.Rapelay (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/hentai-game-reviews/rapelay.php)?
In short, the standards of the community will go to hell for it.Primo: You can not call something 'standards' if it is supported only by half of community.
It is pretty impressive how Zangi is able to predict the outcomes to the community with such great certainty.
i am *pro* filth, but i think zangi has a good point, he just failed to explain it as sensibly and diplomatically as Deathworks and Kilo24. still, i trust that toady and three toe will be able to keep the forums shit-joke free, and seeing that more than half of the forums find these jokes distastefull*, i think the ones that find these funny will be discouraged enough from posting their exploits here
(*acording to the poll, half of the forum really has a problem with this, and acording to this thread, atleast a few, but probably more than just a few of the people who voted yes also arent really interested in shit jokes)
Standards, I probably used the wrong words there. Try... climate, atmosphere, the way that the community generally acts and conducts itself.In short, the standards of the community will go to hell for it.Primo: You can not call something 'standards' if it is supported only by half of community.
Secundo: DF community survived far more greater challenges, like /b/-like board. ToadyOne and ThreeToe are good enough at enforcing their perspective on community well-being, including deployment of mass-bans when needed.
i am *pro* filth, but i think zangi has a good point, he just failed to explain it as sensibly and diplomatically as Deathworks and Kilo24. still, i trust that toady and three toe will be able to keep the forums shit-joke free, and seeing that more than half of the forums find these jokes distastefull*, i think the ones that find these funny will be discouraged enough from posting their exploits here
(*acording to the poll, half of the forum really has a problem with this, and acording to this thread, atleast a few, but probably more than just a few of the people who voted yes also arent really interested in shit jokes)
I definitely want feces.
I would want to dry them and make blocks of them where-after I would build myself a castle of feces. Awesome!
plus a mud/feces hut would have a really cheap rent for the poor dwarfs.
...who wouldn't want a poo castle?
NO GAME INCLUDES THIS IN IT AS AN ACTUALLY THING TO DEAL WITH.
Sims 1/2/3NO GAME INCLUDES THIS IN IT AS AN ACTUALLY THING TO DEAL WITH.
Sim City series.
NO GAME INCLUDES THIS IN IT AS AN ACTUALLY THING TO DEAL WITH.NO GAME INCLUDES VICIOUS CARP IN IT AS AN ACTUALLY[sic] THING TO DEAL WITH EITHER.
infinite complexity is the main feature of DF, it's what draw me to it. if we're trying to get a stable fanbase and widen our target audience, why don't we ditch half of df's boring features and complexity, make it an mmo, give it pretty graphics, remove dwarves, add 26 races of elves, etc...
and the sims were an example to disprove mnjiman's post, you don't have to be very smart to get that.
In Sims they just GO to the wash room, they dont actually have to deal with the actual shit is which im referring too.
Now stop worrying about the possibility of someone else maybe having some fun with the game in a way you find so shockingly inappropriate that it apparently gives you the right to impose your hang-ups on others.Change "inappropriate" to "appropriate" and you get the other end of the discussion :P
As for in-game I already decided my views in the newer thread so if you start flaming without reading that...your fault.While feces is often only used for fertilizer, Urine is extremely useful for many different things.
"My views" mostly revolve around the usage of water, making water a powerful entity in-game. If water gets polluted, you need fresh water, so sites with access to clean water are much more valuable and probably a common warzone because of water.As for in-game I already decided my views in the newer thread so if you start flaming without reading that...your fault.While feces is often only used for fertilizer, Urine is extremely useful for many different things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine
infinite complexity is the main feature of DF, it's what draw me to it. if we're trying to get a stable fanbase and widen our target audience, why don't we ditch half of df's boring features and complexity, make it an mmo, give it pretty graphics, remove dwarves, add 26 races of elves, etc...We already have a stable fanbase, and it is quite large, shame if the bullshit threshold is passed.
and the sims were an example to disprove mnjiman's post, you don't have to be very smart to get that.
"My views" mostly revolve around the usage of water,
Your views about the importance of waste don't negate it's other uses
making water a powerful entity in-game. If water gets polluted, you need fresh water, so sites with access to clean water are much more valuable and probably a common warzone because of water.
This logic would work if there were any sites without water. Caverns, wonderful things.
Although the idea is neat, it would make the game insanely hard(er) though,
That's bad?
so I'd prefer waste to be optional by all means.
The general consensus is on an Init option
(plus it would limit the entire game to a very limited number of sites. What's the use of making a full world if you can only use 1/2 site types?)
How many sites in the world do you end up using anyways? And how would it limit them? You still have caverns, or take the happiness hit and have your dwarves use bushes.
EDIT: Whoops skipped a whole paragraph, don't ask:
About the usage of urine, yeah, I am aware of its usage, but since the emphasis is on the solid side of waste,
No, it isn't
I never really thought about it. Personally I think it's got more potential uses and it's nowhere as gross.
I have actually used medicines based on urea. Possibly many here have without knowing.
This is a possible use, yeah
But about solid waste I still can't really see its real use other than leaving your fort like an early PS3 game.What game?It would be used as fertilizer
Actually if all body waste in DF was going to be urine (quite fit for them drunken dorfs) I'd totally let go of the prudish POV. It's considerably less un-epic.
I think most people agree on a generalized 'filth' tile that could serve as both feces and urine (as feces is mostly only useful for fertilizer, which urine can be used for as well, besides tanning, gunpowder, etc.)
Your views about the importance of waste don't negate it's other uses
That's not as much as "importance", since for now it's in "request" state. There's no given use to it yet.
This logic would work if there were any sites without water. Caverns, wonderful things.
Take the settlement in account, you need to get to fresh water too quickly or the overworld water might run out before you have time to build the basics. However, it implies water to be used to clean up and have more general uses as currently, however there are many talks about pollution linked to this, so that's why I went there.
That's bad?
Yes and no. Remember we rely on AIs doing stuff, and the extra sieging, poor hygiene conditions, etc, will make them veeery sad. Not to mention you might need to expend the early game setting up the sewage system, and if your water-rich system attracts sieges, they will strike very hard, making dorfs sad people :_(
The general consensus is on an Init option
Yes, that was redundant, my bad
How many sites in the world do you end up using anyways? And how would it limit them? You still have caverns, or take the happiness hit and have your dwarves use bushes.
Take another players in account too. I like to embark in broadleaf forests with aquifers so I am cool, but there are others who like the adventure and settle in deserts and wastelands. And I kind of not rely in the ability of the average Urist to keep things tidy, so the happiness hit might be too much to manage
About the usage of urine, yeah, I am aware of its usage, but since the emphasis is on the solid side of waste,
No, it isn't
Scroll up, the word "feces" is still popping out there. I am on the side of "waste" if you read the other thread!
This is a possible use, yeah
Indeed, it's got actual in-game usage potential. Also might have something to do with medicine as in urine samples to quickly detect "dormant" syndromes or such...I guessWhat game?It would be used as fertilizer
There's already potash in-game, sure it can be replaced but it doesn't add anything new on itself.
And the game is mostly the early titles that had a very strong filter that tended to make some scenes brownish. It was used more masterfully in later games, achieving the realistic filtering without turning colors into brown too much.
It's a fancy way to imply that knowing how dwarves work right now, you'll see a lot of "brown" tiles. Tarn needs to teach them hygiene
I think most people agree on a generalized 'filth' tile that could serve as both feces and urine (as feces is mostly only useful for fertilizer, which urine can be used for as well, besides tanning, gunpowder, etc.)
As said feces aren't really of more use than being a bother, putting personal feelings aside, since we already got a reliable source of fertilization. Unless of course it's decided to remove potash in favor of that, as said above.
sewers are pretty awesome, but you don't really need them :\ just empty your chamber pot on a pit at a safe distance from your fort. you definitely don't need a sewer for your 7 starting dwarvesGood point. I am pretty compulsive about building a stable/pen/kennel for whatever animals I am breeding. I will generally have dogs tied up in small stalls and puppies in cages so they don't run around.
in my opinion, more important than dwarven filth, are animal droppings. they'd provide a good reason to keep your pet cows away from your legendary dining room
dear god look at that poll! neck and neck! one of these days my dream of roman style plumbing being mandatory will be fulfilled!The yes votes are a bit ahead actually. You have to count the 'yes but I would not use it' as well.
dear god look at that poll! neck and neck! one of these days my dream of roman style plumbing being mandatory will be fulfilled!
my dream
being mandatory*cough* I thought the con-side was the one pushing their mindsets on others. :P
I really miss back when everyone read my thread and discussed this subject there. :(Why is this important? Aside from ego that is.
I really miss back when everyone read my thread and discussed this subject there. :(Why is this important? Aside from ego that is.
Considering the gross violence of the combat, dead and insane babies and other such dwarfish atrocities not having sewage is quite silly.
I really miss the option to create toilets/bathrooms/sewage systems. It would definitely add another level to fortress design as you have to accommodate not just the creating of goods but safe disposal as well. Animals in particular should leave waste behind them and in turn need to be fed.
I really miss back when everyone read my thread and discussed this subject there. :(Why is this important? Aside from ego that is.
And people are in fact posting in it, and he didn't even care enough to post a link, so yeah.
I vote no because of the kind of content \ personage it might bring to these forums.So you're cool with the wholesale slaughter of elves, the imprisonment and forced mating of merpeople to harvest the bones of their children, and the constant questions about when we can have pools of blood act like a liquid so we can have blood oceans spilled from the torture of those who come to the fort...
QFT.I vote no because of the kind of content \ personage it might bring to these forums.So you're cool with the wholesale slaughter of elves, the imprisonment and forced mating of merpeople to harvest the bones of their children, and the constant questions about when we can have pools of blood act like a liquid so we can have blood oceans spilled from the torture of those who come to the fort...
But no poop jokes please?
QFT.I vote no because of the kind of content \ personage it might bring to these forums.So you're cool with the wholesale slaughter of elves, the imprisonment and forced mating of merpeople to harvest the bones of their children, and the constant questions about when we can have pools of blood act like a liquid so we can have blood oceans spilled from the torture of those who come to the fort...
But no poop jokes please?
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.QFT.I vote no because of the kind of content \ personage it might bring to these forums.So you're cool with the wholesale slaughter of elves, the imprisonment and forced mating of merpeople to harvest the bones of their children, and the constant questions about when we can have pools of blood act like a liquid so we can have blood oceans spilled from the torture of those who come to the fort...
But no poop jokes please?
Entirely spot on. All that other stuff has pleasant character. As soon as you guys start posting community stories about the dwarf that shit himself during a siege and then smeared it everywhere I'll be #$&$#in' outta here.
QFT.I vote no because of the kind of content \ personage it might bring to these forums.So you're cool with the wholesale slaughter of elves, the imprisonment and forced mating of merpeople to harvest the bones of their children, and the constant questions about when we can have pools of blood act like a liquid so we can have blood oceans spilled from the torture of those who come to the fort...
But no poop jokes please?
Entirely spot on. All that other stuff has pleasant character. As soon as you guys start posting community stories about the dwarf that shit himself during a siege and then smeared it everywhere I'll be #$&$#in' outta here.
But you're fine with vomit and blood ?
This opinion is so blatantly stupid I feel you must be simply trolling.
Any, Toady already said he wasn't going to do it.
I don't know how this became the conventional wisdom, because (as far as I know) he's never made an unqualified statement that he wouldn't in any form implement feces, scat, waste, or night soil. The game already has a brown "filth" material that, according to Toady, is feces (see quotes below).
Here's all the quotes I could dig up (note that this first one is from 2004, and that "no plans" is very different from "won't do it"):There are no plans to add "night soil". Dwarves poop little pebbles which seemlessly disappear into the cavern floor, or they collect them and cherish them or something.Do dwarves have water closets? Will we need to carefully craft "flushing" mechanisms to carry the unmentionables away?
There is currently no potty.4. Manure, as a fertilizer.
4. They just drop it everywhere? Everyone will might be doing it after a while... night soil, and so on. But it's a dangerous door to open, especially if the room on the other side is full. If a god turns you into a horse in adventure mode, would you suddenly start dropping the bomb?
From DF Talk: (http://bay12games.com/media/df_talk_combined_transcript.html)QuoteToady: [...] I like the idea of being able to track things and find them, and pick up little kobold scats and dig around to see what they've been eating ... after a fashion, anyway.QuoteRainseeker: So there's no poo creatures either?
Toady: It was a close thing! Because it was literally a decision I had to make, going down this list, because in the Hidden Fun Stuff of course if you get the tentacle demons then you get a layer scattered with various filth on the ground; and there's brown filth and yellow filth and so on and it's not clearly stated but it's a material that I had to put in properties for right? So there's these hard-coded filth materials, and when I was going down the list, you know 'Do I want creatures made out of mud? Do I want creatures made out of vomit? Do I want creatures made out of glass?', there's all these hard-coded materials, and I was just like 'Yeah, yeah, yeah ... No ... No ...' on the filth. But there are creatures made out of the grime, and the grime material is the material that collects on your body slowly over time, and it's also the material that's used in swamp water, so there's this ... I just needed this material called 'grime' for these miscellaneous purposes, it's just crap, just stuff that collects over time and when a creature is made out of that it just says 'composed of grime and filth'. So if you want to call that 'poo' even though it's not it's possible for you to extend your imagination.QuoteToady: [...] But the kind of thing that's on the table is gunpowder, and the materials that you need for that are already in the game, I think. We've got brimstone, which is sulphur, and I don't remember if we have saltpetre, if it's there or not, but ... I guess you could do all kinds of things with manure and urine to make it, or you can find it in a crystalline form in the ground perhaps.
And finally, sewers full of filth were a powergoal in the old dev item system:Quote# PowerGoal153, THE CRACKS OF DOOM, (Future): You flee into the sewer with the baron's ring, but sliding in the muck, you drop it. Try as you might, you cannot locate the precious object in the town's filth.
I guess it would all depend on how tastefully it was approached and discussed. When done tastefully, it would probably be appreciated, as the main "no" point seems to be not wanting to see trolls talking about dwarves that shat their pants, or something.Unfortunately not, and even worse, we have people who seem to be unwilling to ignore the immature people, and give their "LOLOLOLOLOLOLPOOP" posts full attention, therefore keeping the immature people of the opinion that it's ok to talk about, therefore MORE "LOLPOOP". Don't feed the trolls, people.
We're all more mature that that, right?
Right?
Right?
(long "speech")Agreed.
anybody played fallout? remember modoc?
I find it interesting that so many people think this is an immature and gross idea; considering the number of very mature and practical reasons stated for faeces/waste/excrement or WHATEVER you feel most comfortable calling it. Pros that don't involve immature or gross fecal humour;Most people find our hygiene immature in a sense. However, we all need to do our business somewhere, and yes, in games, business doesn't need to always be in, however, with realism, it would be moved over sooner or later. And yes, our bodily functions have been called "hygiene".
- This game is one of the most in-depth games in existence where realism is concerned. Excrement is as natural as all the other bodily fluids and body parts currently being painstakingly and lovingly simulated
- Historically, waste management was a very VERY significant part of any civilisation. Why is it that, when we think of the great heights of the Roman Empire, we think of their extravagant bath houses, the aqueducts and so on? Because without such things, these civilisations would not have survived without much greater rates of disease
- Being able to build functioning sewer systems with running water as an option would be so much fun, and would add a real challenge to the game. It might even convince me that aqueducts are a good thing, absent of a useable river.
- Currently animals do not eat, so there is no reason for everyone to be concerned about livestock leaving waste everywhere; why would it until animals eating is implemented?
- historically, waste has been used for many, many things; fertiliser, tanning, people washed their hair in urine to bleach it, jellyfish stings, wattle and daub construction... this may not be important now, but as workshops and other things become more complex and realistically simulated, bodily waste will become increasingly useful. Better to become accustomed to some basic simulations of it early on, than stubbornly keep it out until there is no other choice, and suddenly have a hundred things to try and need to mod into it
- As has been previously stated, we are playing as a race of creatures that spend much of their lives smothered in multiple layers of blood, mud and vomit, that freely vomit everywhere when they encounter sunlight, that butcher kittens and use their infants as living shields in battle, and which may choose to deal with enemies by flooding the world with lava, painfully burning living things to death. They are also all alcoholics, and most crime is dealt with in manners that are near-fatal, or sometimes totally fatal. Bodily waste really isn't any more offensive than any of that, and yet these things rather than turning players away, attract them
Some things I would like those against this to consider;
We are not asking for this within any particular time frame, so the argument of "more important aspects" is moot, as I think we can all agree there are more important issues right now. We simply think this should be something that comes in eventually.
Several people have stated tasteful ways this could be implemented.
We would be happy for an init option allowing those who do not like the idea to go without it in game, so no one would be forcing you to experience it.
anybody played fallout? remember modoc?
Fallout 1? Never gotten into the game far enough to figure out who or what that is. Explain?
Yeah, in fallout 1/2 it was always described as "biomass" or "goo" when you looked at it.anybody played fallout? remember modoc?
Fallout 1? Never gotten into the game far enough to figure out who or what that is. Explain?
fallout, there's a quest where you put a bomb in an outhouse, and when it explodes, it covers the town in....stuff. just to provide an example of an excellent game that actually had a crap joke, and didn't became widely known for that
Also sorry for being a grammar nazi, but it's spelt "civilization".
5: Um... ew? I know cow poop was used as plant fertilizer, but feces used for tanning, and urine for bleaching?! Well yes, bodily functions are, in a way, used a lot, it gives the meaning "waste not, want not" a... higher standing.
5: Um... ew? I know cow poop was used as plant fertilizer, but feces used for tanning, and urine for bleaching?! Well yes, bodily functions are, in a way, used a lot, it gives the meaning "waste not, want not" a... higher standing.
Bigger population of DF players playing it, more chance of stupid memes popping up about it, more likely to attract the 'LOLBOOBIES' crowd.*Sighs*
Same reasoning with the Feces... but, in my opinion, it is going to be worse.
*Sighs*
This game is advertised on every major *chan in the internets, including 4chan (there were at least 4! threads reaching bump-limit in /tg/ upon release of 31.0). It is advertised on wikis like ED and LM. It is advertised on SA.
This very forum had /b/-like board in the past, with worst of 4chan stuff. Theres just no way to attract more immature and insane crowd because it simply does not exist.
I said this in the other thread and I will say it again here.
Bottom line is that if it goes in, it should go in just like any other feature. Fully implemented. There should be no prudish artificial limitations on it, just put it in correctly or not at all. Its not for you to say what people can or cannot do in their game.
I say yes as long as we don't get our beautiful forums spread with idiots sayingThis is no worse than what already appears on the forums.
"hahaha your game has poo in it!!thats funny!i want to drown my dwarfs in poo poo!"
I say yes as long as we don't get our beautiful forums spread with idiots sayingThis is no worse than what already appears on the forums.
"hahaha your game has poo in it!!thats funny!i want to drown my dwarfs in poo poo!"
we don't get our beautiful forums spread with idiotsI can't understand why people worry so much about 'idiots' in a game, which is too hard to average player (and definitely TOO hard for idiot), and is notorious for its learning curve and complex textual interface. Seriously, you believe that textual representation of feces produced by @'s is what every idiot wants?
I say yes as long as we don't get our beautiful forums spread with idiots sayingThis is no worse than what already appears on the forums.
"hahaha your game has poo in it!!thats funny!i want to drown my dwarfs in poo poo!"
They worry because an idiot doesn't have to play the game to troll the forums. Not that I think this worry has any merit, just explaining why I think it exists.we don't get our beautiful forums spread with idiotsI can't understand why people worry so much about 'idiots' in a game, which is too hard to average player (and definitely TOO hard for idiot), and is notorious for its learning curve and complex textual interface. Seriously, you believe that textual representation of feces produced by @'s is what every idiot wants?
Only real threat to community is graphics.
we don't get our beautiful forums spread with idiotsI can't understand why people worry so much about 'idiots' in a game, which is too hard to average player (and definitely TOO hard for idiot), and is notorious for its learning curve and complex textual interface. Seriously, you believe that textual representation of feces produced by @'s is what every idiot wants?
Only real threat to community is graphics.
I think as we have recently seen, the only real threat to the community are schisms in regard to utilities and programs/games related to DF.I'm pretty sure the other stuff is equally impotent as well.
The rest of it is impotent internet nerdrage.
How are graphicshe's saying that the lack of graphics is an obstacle for those of mischievous intentions, a filter that only allows people of pure heart into the game and into this community.credit to teamthreat to community?
some of us enjoy acii, we're using graphics for logistic reasons, but aesthetically, we enjoy it this way
(Give us a proper digestive tract already, Toady!)
i mean, everybody has their priorities, mine isn't feces, but these are well above further graphical modability. it's up to toady really, not to *you*
Voted ! not ok .... except diapers are implemented :D ... no waste time fece implementation, and a new branch of production/cleaning :D