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Dwarf Fortress => DF Modding => Topic started by: Shaostoul on April 20, 2010, 05:37:17 pm

Title: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: Shaostoul on April 20, 2010, 05:37:17 pm
Well I wasn't too sure where to post this and I couldn't find that "little questions" thread, but it didn't quite seem appropriate anyways...

Is it possible to mod a mineral, say like a clay loam wall and have it freeze water on touch and then later re-mod the wall to melt the ice or burst things into flames that come into contact with it?

I'm asking cause I would like to do some slight changes to an aquifer, but I don't have the tools or exact know how to mess with aquifers... effectively.

-edit-

I tried that the mat set temp thing and it didn't seem to boil or freeze water. But I may of done it wrong.

-edit-

I tried with the creature edit and changing the homeotherm, but it appears to be doing nothing, I went from 10067 to 5067.

Yes, I edited the save file too.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (aquifer work at the moment)
Post by: Shoku on April 20, 2010, 06:34:46 pm
I've never heard of people abusing stone temperatures so I would think no. Messing around with boiling point or something made it possible to produce a lot of fires or something but what people did previously was set the homeotherm value on living things. You could have creatures that handily melted any ice for several tiles and I am pretty sure people made a few that would freeze water.

If that still works you would have to be a bit more careful now because dwarves can have their fat and such melt at very high temp now. Perhaps chaining up your cat right on the edge of the water and then modding it down to freezing might work and let your dwarves avoid any low temp issues that may exist.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (aquifer work at the moment)
Post by: Shaostoul on April 20, 2010, 07:22:58 pm
So I just mod the homeotherm then?

I guess I'll have to play around with it... what if I set the dwarf homeotherm really low? Is there a too low?

This leads me to another question... how long does water take to freeze? Does it have a real high spec heat?

-edit-

the creature edit did nothing that i could see. yes temperature is on.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: Shaostoul on April 20, 2010, 08:46:22 pm
Wellllllllllllllll I just had the most hilarious happening... setting their homeotherm to 5067 causes them to freeze instantaneously upon embark... anywhere.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: Shoku on April 20, 2010, 09:03:34 pm
Ya...
I am vaguely remembering how this works. I think fixedtemp is what you want to use actually. I think you could find how that one gets used in the magmaman raw. Just check if they still use homeotherm with it.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: Shaostoul on April 20, 2010, 09:05:55 pm
Yeah, I guess I'll give them a look. Trying to go for freezing temps though, so hopefully I don't run into too many problems.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: Shoku on April 20, 2010, 09:18:04 pm
Well if you can use the embark anywhere thing you could probably work out the number that just barely freezes water easily enough whether your guys live through it or not.

Then you can just chain up a cat next to the water, save, go into the save and edit cats there, and then come back for some solid water.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: Shaostoul on April 21, 2010, 02:17:33 am
So I take it you have to regen for changing homeotherm and set_heat........

Well through what I've tested... I've had no luck... well no good luck...

I made two separate beasts.. one ice and one fire...

they both worked great! however.. upon embark they immediately set EVERYTHING in the near vacinity (including dwarfs) on fire. (the ice guys didn't really do anything that I noticed...)

when i was finally able to some how manage to not get my dwarfs to die in the first couple seconds of embark... i made my way down to the aquifer...

The fire guys worked! they made tons of steam and if it were a little more controlled, i might've been able to do what I wanted... maybe... one of the ice ones showed up, encased 4 of the remaining 4 in ice as soon as it stepped onto their level and then the ice one got swept away and plummeted to its death. where it proceeded to create a ring of ice right around it's corpse. (fell in a major river)

the fire one kept steaming away and then some how out of no where, my last dwarf bled to death.

even taking the procaution of adding fireimmune and colddam point to try to counter possible effects... a lot of death was had on my part.

I guess I may have to mod out aquifers to really accomplish what I want.. but I'd really like to keep that aquifer.

Unless someone knows of a way to hack tiles, i think i am done tempting death and dieing...
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: NRN_R_Sumo1 on April 21, 2010, 04:11:06 am
I'm a little bit intrigued by this to be honest.

I believe that if you make your dwarves fire immune then use those creatures to light some coal on fire in a metal bin you should be able to just toss it in the water and the heat of the box will boil all water around it.

Goodbye aquifier/lake/ocean.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: Shaostoul on April 21, 2010, 04:57:28 pm
Well it hasn't worked as planned.

I couldn't make dwarfs revert to their normal selves.

Upon embarking with the creatures I made (of fire and ice) although they worked, the fire one set flame to all surrounding grass, the ice one worked great! however it had a tendancy of freezing my dwarfs in water.

I couldn't seem to safely work with the fire one....

Also I could get the temperatures to adjust after the genned world, but oh well.

If anyone has had luck with anything similar let me know? I really don't want to get rid of the aquifers.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: Shoku on April 21, 2010, 06:34:00 pm
Alright, so by looking at fire imps I think the temperature safety code is this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now you might be able to just set dwarven homeotherm low enough that they boil away the water with plenty of space to construct walls blocking it.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: soul4hdwn on April 21, 2010, 06:35:07 pm
Well it hasn't worked as planned.

I couldn't make dwarfs revert to their normal selves.

Upon embarking with the creatures I made (of fire and ice) although they worked, the fire one set flame to all surrounding grass, the ice one worked great! however it had a tendancy of freezing my dwarfs in water.

I couldn't seem to safely work with the fire one....

Also I could get the temperatures to adjust after the genned world, but oh well.

If anyone has had luck with anything similar let me know? I really don't want to get rid of the aquifers.
did you check the copy of the raw stuff that is int he save folder?
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: Shaostoul on April 21, 2010, 07:40:59 pm
Yeah, I've been really careful to make sure if I re-use a save and change settings that I do it both in the Save and Normal Raw. I normally just regen. Just in case.

Shoku what do you mean lower the homeotherm? ... wait... homeotherm is how fast it transfers heat?

Can I add/remove the set_temp or adjust the homeotherm without having to regen? Seems that's what I had to do, but I have like zero experience with modding creatures.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: soul4hdwn on April 21, 2010, 10:54:16 pm
homeotherm is, for lack of a ready description, the base or natural temperature the creature of substance exists at.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: Shoku on April 23, 2010, 07:59:16 pm
So they try to have that temperature. The environment around them pushes them toward its temperature. I don't know if you balance between the two or if external temperatures just affect the skin or what.

Used to be homeotherm was, I think, also the value that determined damage from temperature but now there are tissue types instead. Evidently fat melts first but aside from that the next heat effect you are likely to see is actual burning.

The dam_point values are the new ones that are equivalent to burning. Melting and boiling tags are like a temperature that cuts that part of the body off. Multiply value refers to the actual dwarfbuck value so it is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: aradar on August 30, 2023, 04:48:34 pm
Alright, so by looking at fire imps I think the temperature safety code is this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now you might be able to just set dwarven homeotherm low enough that they boil away the water with plenty of space to construct walls blocking it.

This is used in a dragon as well when I experimented with it I had a dwarf evaporating roughly 3-4 or more of tiles in a circle around the dwarf he didn't mind the steam at all
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: dikbutdagrate on September 17, 2023, 06:44:54 pm
So I had an elephant man necromancer, who went to space once. They achieved this by breaking through a significant amount of of the skybox, which involved a fairly labor intensive process which combined dfhack's advfort, and dozens of adventure camps stapled next to each other, which produced a space station / space mountain highway (which stretched all the way from the world's equivalent of the grand canyon to mount Everest). Upon reaching "space" everything suddenly became very, very cold. So cold, my elephant man's eyeballs froze, as well as anything I happened to touch. I then proceeded to fall off the space station, drop all the way down into a river below, which immediately froze over and slayed my adventurer.

This was intriguing, so over the past year tried a couple times to replicate the properties of "space", or "The Vacuum", through various custom materials. And I never managed to produce anything that had the same level of effect on the environment as having a creature be exposed to vacuum of space.

With inorganics, you have access to fixed_mat_temp and spec_heat, and there's some neat stuff you can produce. To behave like a "thing with a fixed temperature", you usually set the spec_heat to 0. But if you set it at a non zero number, it'll do some weird stuff. 

If you're clever, you can even exceed the cap on maximum fixed temperature Urist by using specific negative values, since the token accepts an unsigned integer and doesn't have any real sanity checks on what's going on.

You can also define a material with a specific heat of 1, and with a cold enough fixed temperature, the material will dramatically alter its temperature and actually roll over when exposed to certain environmental effects. For instance, if its picked up and then tossed into a river or body of water, the item will roll over from say, a default of 200 degrees Urist (very cold), all the way to being 59,999 degrees Urist, and produce a momentary burst of steam (note: depending on how you spawn an item made of the material, it may be important to interact with it in some way, such as picking it up first, in order for its fixed temp to become active). Upon being pulled out of the body of water, its temperature will return to being cold, and may become coated in ice.

But I've never been able to boil entire rivers or freeze them using inorganic items.

Creatures seem capable of producing constant effects though, but never to the dramatic extent that I've wanted.

I've tried tossing fire demons, lava men, and creatures made of freezing material into bodies of water, and steam will be produced constantly or whatever, but its never dramatic enough. I always defined their body materials as having fixed temperatures, and never actually considered messing around with HOMEOTHERM's effect on the environment. I always just assumed it was negligible.

Its interesting that people are reporting success here with custom creatures which are able to freeze water though, by manipulating HOMEOTHERM.
Title: Re: Temperature Modding... (trying to freeze water) Help
Post by: aradar on September 19, 2023, 07:59:53 am
So I had an elephant man necromancer, who went to space once. They achieved this by breaking through a significant amount of of the skybox, which involved a fairly labor intensive process which combined dfhack's advfort, and dozens of adventure camps stapled next to each other, which produced a space station / space mountain highway (which stretched all the way from the world's equivalent of the grand canyon to mount Everest). Upon reaching "space" everything suddenly became very, very cold. So cold, my elephant man's eyeballs froze, as well as anything I happened to touch. I then proceeded to fall off the space station, drop all the way down into a river below, which immediately froze over and slayed my adventurer.

This was intriguing, so over the past year tried a couple times to replicate the properties of "space", or "The Vacuum", through various custom materials. And I never managed to produce anything that had the same level of effect on the environment as having a creature be exposed to vacuum of space.

With inorganics, you have access to fixed_mat_temp and spec_heat, and there's some neat stuff you can produce. To behave like a "thing with a fixed temperature", you usually set the spec_heat to 0. But if you set it at a non zero number, it'll do some weird stuff. 

If you're clever, you can even exceed the cap on maximum fixed temperature Urist by using specific negative values, since the token accepts an unsigned integer and doesn't have any real sanity checks on what's going on.

You can also define a material with a specific heat of 1, and with a cold enough fixed temperature, the material will dramatically alter its temperature and actually roll over when exposed to certain environmental effects. For instance, if its picked up and then tossed into a river or body of water, the item will roll over from say, a default of 200 degrees Urist (very cold), all the way to being 59,999 degrees Urist, and produce a momentary burst of steam (note: depending on how you spawn an item made of the material, it may be important to interact with it in some way, such as picking it up first, in order for its fixed temp to become active). Upon being pulled out of the body of water, its temperature will return to being cold, and may become coated in ice.

But I've never been able to boil entire rivers or freeze them using inorganic items.

Creatures seem capable of producing constant effects though, but never to the dramatic extent that I've wanted.

I've tried tossing fire demons, lava men, and creatures made of freezing material into bodies of water, and steam will be produced constantly or whatever, but its never dramatic enough. I always defined their body materials as having fixed temperatures, and never actually considered messing around with HOMEOTHERM's effect on the environment. I always just assumed it was negligible.

Its interesting that people are reporting success here with custom creatures which are able to freeze water though, by manipulating HOMEOTHERM.
The big drawback of freezing liquid with  any creature really is that they will instantly be killed by freezing water sometimes no matter how strong the creature is 
I think this is why a lot of people don't really mess with it because it's stupidly dangerous and there's no way to mitigate the danger