Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: mission0 on May 03, 2010, 12:58:37 am

Title: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: mission0 on May 03, 2010, 12:58:37 am

BOTG was in it's third version when I first came here to the bay12 forums and after that version it seems to have declined greatly. Where players used to actively participate in the role playing it seems to die down rather quickly from people not wanting to commit the time necessary to the game. My basic question is what was it about the first, second, and third versions of BOTG that kept the players interested and brought in new players to keep the game running rather than having them stall out after only a few turns.

To put it simply what first brought people in to play BOTG and what kept them interested, then after this idea is established and agreed upon how could we possibly improve upon this mechanic or simply just go back to it so that the game can continue living.

Links to the first three Botg's

I: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=646.0
II: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=40483.0
III: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=22037.0

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Emperor_Jonathan on May 03, 2010, 01:12:09 am

People look at the game, thinks that it looks fun. They go the first couple turns in excitement before becoming bored, stagnating, slowing and eventually leaving.

In my opinion, BotG isn't so much a game as it is a platform for roleplay, and lets be honest, that's not everyones thing.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Kagus on May 03, 2010, 01:15:56 am

Heh, I remember writing up Yagesh...  Ended up shooting myself in the foot, since that map was so small the only source of water was that little lake.  I was bound and determined to set up a nice underwater citadel for those Aegeans (ripped almost wholesale out of the Dominions series). 

The first battle was almost entirely roleplaying.  There were no real rules to speak of, so we basically just had to make up fights on the fly and try to get away with it.

While I can fully understand and appreciate the desire for a slightly more defined set of rules, it does tend to stifle the making-it-up aspect and push the thing into more of a...  Well, a game.

With each successive BotG, the rules got more clearly defined and more complex.  Now it was just a game to be played competitively, to see who could best utilize the standards set in place, rather than a communal story like the first one.


Now, I could also try to push the point that those threads originated back in the old days of the forum, and that the people were just nicer/smarter/geekier/better back then, but that's a subject better left untouched...

I never particularly cared for the various joke/cute races and actions though.  But that's primarily because I have a habit of taking these things a wee bit too seriously.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: mission0 on May 03, 2010, 01:53:33 am

Ok so the basis here is the the ability to roleplay without restrictions, however after experiencing the roleplay rooms like Strife's Castle it seems that a completely unstructured roleplay isn't possible without it crashing from a lack of common sense.

Then we could say a proper mix of roleplay and guidelines are needed. I believe this where the original "Common Sense" rule came into play. Would it be wrong to assume then that if a game, doesn't have to be botg, was started up with it's main them being "Common Sense" then it can be played without crashing.

For example:

A player asks if they can build a death star

Instead of the gm saying no, he instead asks, "How can your race feasibly do this with their current resources and abilities"

If the player can come up with a answer that is either fun enough or makes enough sense then it gets the clear and boom their is a death star.


Obviously this wouldn't really happen since it would ruin the game for everyone, but it gets the point across.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Emperor_Jonathan on May 03, 2010, 05:21:10 am

The problem isn't necessarily the rules (IMO there are several improvements that can be made).

The main problem is the players lack of time and/or lack of drive to roleplay. Is it possible to introduce some rule to keep BotG going? Perhaps.

Perhaps we should just drop BotG altogether.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Strife26 on May 03, 2010, 05:38:32 am

I think that the major problem is that it's nearly impossible to find the perfect spot on the Freedom-Rules sliding skill.

One can try to keep a really free RP going if the GM is active enough, but (especially with me running the Fortress) it's easy for a GM to go to bed and wake up in the morning with an extra five pages to read. I know that I got completely behind pretty quickly.



Although, honestly, I see a LOT less serious RPing around now, which is kinda sad.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Armok on May 03, 2010, 01:16:46 pm

This topic is relevant to my interests.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Akroma on May 03, 2010, 01:49:15 pm

when botg 3 was ruined by that oh god aweful map, that genuinely sucked, I was just getting into it the story and got something actually interesting going.


then botg 4, which was inargueably the BEST botg, oh how I loved it.


apart from some, cough, black sheep, who...streeeetched the story a bit by simply missing half of the moves eventhough story was involving them. That one was played out very nicely, had interesting characters and stories, that simply wrote themselves as things went on. with each turn, every race on the board, each characters, and everyones agenda became more and more interesting and believable.




those botg's, 3 and 4, where the best ones, and it was THAT which killed botg for me




it entirely destroyed my standards


botg 3 and 4 were not only well written, but long written. sometimes I wrote hours about a single turn, and eagerly looked forwards to other players doing the same.






after those botgs, I tried to emulate that feeling, directly from the getgo, heck, long before the game started. I laid out a good handful of different characters, how they would be used, planned on how the story should progress.


and I simply sled into them way too fast.


while I already wrote out stories for the endgame, people still were in the phase of the first few turns, very short, very boring, nothing happening.


so naturaly, I was disappointed that the botgs that didn't have any time to warm up felt rather cold.








yep, this is what killed botg for me, going in and treating it like the previous botgs endgame.
destroyed my own fun, and I have to admit, by pestering the IRC crowd, also theirs.


sorry guys.






what now impedes any revival of a botg that is any good, is that with university now going on, my time windows have drasticaly declined.






once summer starts and I have a few months on me where I can better regulate my time, I'd be delighted to join in on another botg, and this time properly, slowly getting into it and letting things write themselves.








so yeah, if we start with another botg, starting this summer, lets go on about it properly


that is to say screw rules, free for all


even if that includes Armok (can't believe I just said that)






apart from that, botg did have some good longtime bonuses. through that a very good RP group formed, still using the same IRC channel from back then.


and heck we are having a blast.





that being said, veterans bickering about newbies treading on their lawn:
bah, look at the currently ongoing botg. that map looks terrible. barely readable. why didn#t the one who started it take up the map code used in ALL other botgs. it's easy on the eye, toady uses it for his maps.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: mission0 on May 03, 2010, 03:10:21 pm

Heh I picked up on the hint of being a black sheep there, I apologize for that. I will say in my defense though that I wasn't to familiar with the forums, still pretty inexcusable and I've tried to make up for that with recent games.

I'll be gone this summer so I won't be able to join in on any games there but I look forward to reading it.


And so I guess the main problem is that the core players who used to play botg have grown up and don't have time or their jobs have become more demanding and thus the same problem of time. I guess a good place to start is to help those trying to play botg now learn the ropes and help with everything. Heck when I made I think botg VI I didn't know that the others had used some code to make a map, was just winging it really.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Akroma on May 03, 2010, 03:16:45 pm

the black sheep I meant was whomever played the half-giant, the H'run (gah, I can remember that, but forgot who played them)




the story between Navians race and the H'run fighting over disputed land, while the Hitengu, in a middle of a war with another race themselves tried to make peace between the sides sadly never resolved properly due to the Hrun never being there




shame

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Virex on May 03, 2010, 03:19:16 pm

Having participated in 3 BotG's that were... underwhelming (6, 2 revived and another I don't remember off-hand), I must say that the main problem for me has been keeping track of everything. Each turn has at least 2 to 3 hours worth of roleplay to read a half hour to an hour is needed to figure out how they all fit togheter and then another half hour at least to write my turn up and plan ahead for comming turns. Add to that the time needed to coordinate any actions with other people and a full university schedule and the fact that nearly all BotG's run at at least a turn per 3 days, often faster and it becomes very hard to keep up with the game. That means I don't get to read all posts I like and thus feel quite a bit lost in the world.

Another thing which irked me at least with both 6 and the last one is that interaction with other players came about very slowly if at all. This is difficult for the GM to influence so if there's a new BotG I am able to participate in (Likely during the summer vacation), I'll try not to fall in that hole.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Strife26 on May 03, 2010, 03:40:10 pm

Interesting. Might it be possible for us to have one right now, as a means to try stuff out before the summer? I'd be willing to GM.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: mission0 on May 03, 2010, 03:53:12 pm

Quote from: Strife26 on May 03, 2010, 03:40:10 pm

Interesting. Might it be possible for us to have one right now, as a means to try stuff out before the summer? I'd be willing to GM.

Well if you want to do a test run I'm game, I've got 2 - 3 weeks I have till my summer starts up and my schedule slams shut. (just a warning)

My main question is will it be BOTG or just a game inspired from BOTG?

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Strife26 on May 03, 2010, 03:54:29 pm

Well, I guess that we could start discussions. Me and Armok are in the #BOTG channel right now.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: mission0 on May 03, 2010, 04:00:02 pm

Quote from: Strife26 on May 03, 2010, 03:54:29 pm

Well, I guess that we could start discussions. Me and Armok are in the #BOTG channel right now.

What type of game are you planning on running? The rp loving flexible rules I described, or perhaps an older version of botg like III or IV

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Strife26 on May 03, 2010, 04:03:01 pm

My thought was using the primary rules of:
1) Common Sense
2) GM-Player Arbitration (aka, myself and the player would work out anything not acceptable)

For more structured stuff I was thinking about having some guidelines for City growth and army movement, but nothing all that strict.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Armok on May 03, 2010, 04:42:24 pm

*pokes in, and listens, but dont really have that much to add.*

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: mission0 on May 03, 2010, 05:00:21 pm

Sounds like Chaos at usual. So let's test this out and see what problems we hit then elaborate and debate further here then.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Virex on May 03, 2010, 05:02:34 pm

The transcript so far:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[23:07] ->> You joined channel #botg
[23:07] ->> Channel Modes are: +ntr
[23:07] ->> Channel created on 30-Apr-10 5:45:20 AM
[23:07] <Virex> Hello
[23:08] <Strife> Hello.
[23:08] <Strife> What I was imagining was going back to the RP focused game.
[23:09] <Armok> yea
[23:09] <Virex> That has always been the selling point of BotG
[23:09] <Strife> Maybe with a few guidlines pertaining to city growth, research, and armies.
[23:09] <Strife> They wouldn't be strict though.
[23:09] <Armok> thing is, the boards are simply not the same culturealy any more, you cand do it so easily
[23:09] <Strife> I'd most go for the Common Sense rule and Player/GM arbitration.
[23:09] <Virex> Well, we are gods. With a bit of indication you could probably get people to police eachother
[23:09] <Strife> I was considering throwing it on the Agora.
[23:10] <Virex> or blow eachother to bits, but that'd be a short game
[23:10] <Virex> would be an option
[23:10] <Armok> he only way to get an oldshool BotG is fidning some OTHWER forum than bay12 to post it on
[23:10] <Armok> *OTHER
[23:10] <Virex> one thing I'd try to avoid is player overload
[23:10] <Strife> Get a bit of traffic for the site, and hopefully keeping more serious players around.
[23:10] <Virex> Too many players means you can't keep trac of it all
[23:10] <Armok> You'ere on the agora?
[23:10] <Strife> 6-8 maybe, plus me GMing?
[23:11] <Virex> I think 8 would be pushing it, but possible
[23:11] <Virex> 6 would probably be an ideal number
[23:11] <Strife> How many Strifes with a tendency to start threads titled "Dragon Inn" do you know, Armok?
[23:11] <Armok> 13,14
[23:12] <Virex> ... you know a fractional amount of strifes?
[23:12] <Virex> Anyway, idealy the game would have some incentive to promote player interaction
[23:12] <Virex> Perhaps have people start close to eachother?
[23:13] <Virex> and have them expand outward
[23:13] <Strife> Trying to put more focus on the Gods would probably help too.
[23:13] <Armok> I'm thinking, maybe we shuldnt ave that "expanding colonies" thing at all
[23:13] <Virex> You mean just citty states?
[23:14] <Armok> for example
[23:14] <Armok> or nomadic tribes
[23:14] <Virex> would be possible. It'd free up more time to focus on the cittiews
[23:14] <Armok> or any other of a myriad ways of life
[23:14] <Virex> I'd refrain from going 'out there' forcibly
[23:15] <Virex> if people want to play a deviating race that should be their choice, idealy
[23:15] <Armok> Also, I think we shuld losen the "one player, one race, one civ" thing
[23:15] <Armok> Also, I think we shuld losen the "one player, one god, one race, one civ" thing
[23:15] <Virex> You mean multiple gods for one race?
[23:16] <Virex> You'd want to keep things as simple as possible though, to avoid convulting the RP
[23:16] <Armok> yes, or multiple races under one god
[23:16] <Armok> or multicacial civs
[23:16] <Virex> Multiracial Civs have happend in at least 2 BotG's I can name
[23:16] <Armok> or different civs with one god each, but the same species of creture in them
[23:16] <Armok> or any other combination
[23:16] <Strife> Multiraces seem pretty good.
[23:17] <Strife> I'd be okay with a single race having multiple gods too.
[23:17] <Virex> They work, but they're slightly harder to RP convincingly
[23:17] <Virex> on both accounts
[23:17] <Strife> I just worry about players wanting to have a bunch of separate civilizations at once.
[23:17] <Armok> yea...
[23:17] <Virex> That would require realy god RP to not make it look like a multirace civ
[23:18] <Virex> god-like I mean
[23:18] <Armok> really, the way to fix it is to decorple civ goals, god goals, and player goals almost completly
[23:18] <Virex> Player goals and god goals should, idealy, be identical
[23:18] <Virex> to keep peoples heads from exploding
[23:19] <Armok> I'm not so sure abaut that, esopecialy if each player have many gods
[23:19] <Virex> ... I hadn't considered the possibility of a pantheon
[23:19] <Virex> Good point there
[23:20] <Strife> Many might start stretching it, but a pantheon with general same feel should be okay.
[23:20] <Virex> Would be interesting to roleplay. I still remember playing a race of people with split personalities in BotG 6
[23:20] <Virex> Would be sorta like that, but with the gods instead
[23:21] <Virex> To get back on the focus on gods, perhaps miracles and the sort should be stretched more intensively in the introduction
[23:21] <Virex> You'd want as few rules as possible, but the opening post can define the general direction people will think
[23:23] <Armok> I'm thinking something like; mortals goal; live and be happy, same as reall pepale. God goal; have it's sphere dominate the world. Player goal: maxemize some variable (population, divesity tech level, BNP, something else)
[23:23] <Virex> Would probably be too gamey
[23:23] <Virex> if introduced that way
[23:24] <Armok> the god and player goals are GENERAL; it dosnt matter wich civ archives the vaius things
[23:24] <Virex> Achieve as in an end-game like fashion?
[23:25] <Armok> no. As in; a player carwes abaut the sum of all civs [variable], not just the one they controle
[23:25] <Virex> Wouldn't that occure naturaly?
[23:26] <Armok> basicaly; players shuld COOPERATE, gods shuld COMPETE, and mortals shuld LIVE.
[23:26] <Virex> Would be an option, but what if players don't want to cooperate?
[23:27] <Armok> they dont have to, but with non-contradictory goals positivs sum strategies are generaly the best
[23:27] <Virex> The way the other BotG's were introduced people generaly ended up ascociating with their gods or civilisation as their character, instead of playing as players
[23:27] <Armok> I'm just brainstorming, my ideas are probably bad
[23:28] <Virex> They would require a lot of GM intevention
[23:28] <Virex> Though that wouldn't be a bad idea in the first place, having the GM force some things as a lattice for others to work from
[23:28] <Strife> Well, my internets aren't free, so I've got to run to work. Do keep chatting and maybe summarize your conclusions in one of thethreads for me, okay?
[23:28] <Virex> sure
[23:29] <Strife> At least I get off earlish tonight. Bye.
[23:29] <Virex> g'night
[23:30] <Armok> I shuld actualy go to bed as well prety soon
[23:30] <Virex> As do I
[23:30] <Virex> But I still got a quarter to spare or so
[23:30] <Virex> anyway, would more GM guidance in the world itself be an idea?
[23:31] <Virex> Less freeform, sure, but also more structure and some incentive to do stuff besides build the citty up
[23:31] <Armok> I think that someehting other than GM and PLAYER is needed
[23:32] <Armok> some kind of manager
[23:32] <Virex> Outside forces?
[23:32] <Virex> We've had the adventurers?
[23:32] <Armok> nonono
[23:32] <Virex> A manager as in?
[23:33] <Armok> sorry, I'm not really able to focus, I forgot what I weere going to say
[23:33] <Virex> Anyway, I think any managing could be done by the GM, if he doesn't play a real race.
[23:34] <Virex> 'Forces of darkness' or keeping track of an important artifact or something could be his task instead
[23:34] * Strife (d06b53aa@NewNet-FCD034EA.mibbit.com) Quit ( Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client )
[23:34] <Virex> Another thing I was thinking about is having more setup time. Coordinating the history between multiple gods and races, as to give it all background
[23:35] <Virex> This could of course get mindnumbingly boring
[23:35] <Virex> but I feel it's a decent way to get more grasp on the races/gods and thus improve roleplay
[23:40] <Armok> we tried that with one I think
[23:40] <Virex> hmm?
[23:41] <Virex> what happened?
[23:41] <Armok> I dont really remember, ask akroma
[23:41] <Virex> You remember which one it was?
[23:47] <Armok> not realluy
[23:47] <Virex> oh well, Time to dig that one up then.
[23:48] * EJ (~chatzilla@NewNet-6F2FA562.lns11.cht.bigpond.net.au) has joined #botg
[23:50] <Virex> Hi
[23:52] <Virex> It seems BotG 3 had some GM interference
[23:52] <Virex> Not quite sure how it plays out yet
[23:52] <Virex> Though I was more thinking of having the GM trying to forge a kind of story when the game itself falls dead
[23:55] <Virex> Also, premade history seems to be one of the tripping points of BotG 6, so it's something that has to be considered carfully
[23:59] <Virex> > Hello
[23:59] <Virex> [23:08] <Strife> H
[23:59] <Virex> > Hello
[23:59] <Virex> [23:08] <Strife> H
[23:59] <Virex> > Hello
[23:59] <Virex> [23:08] <Strife> H
[23:59] <Virex> whoa sorry
[00:00] <Virex> just trying to figure out how to coppy stuff here
[00:00] <Armok> ANything else you have to dicus todaya with me? I shuld really got o sleep
[00:00] <Virex> Nope, I'm coppying the logs to a post now
[00:00] <Virex> See you around
[00:01] <Armok> Seya! Bye! ^_^
[00:01] * Armok hugs
[00:01] <Virex> bye

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: mission0 on May 03, 2010, 05:16:14 pm

Sounds good, can't find the server so I can connect though.

I may offer up my services as a Gm to help things run smoothly if Strife is fine with it.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Virex on May 03, 2010, 05:19:56 pm

Server's IRC.newnet.net

Anyway, Both Strife, I and Akroma are gone now, so the chat's propably completely dead.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Strife26 on May 04, 2010, 07:56:50 pm

Prospective Rules:

Rule 1) Common Sense rules
Rule 2) Strife Rules
     -Strife will determine things via Arbitration with players affected.

General progression rules for city growth, research, and armies.

Players distinct from Gods
      Player's goal: have a fun and intriguing game
      God's goal: depending on the god.

48 Hour turns, 1 month in game span.
God chatter continuously.

1 GM (Strife)
1 Assistant GM (Mission, if you want it)
6 players
~Minor powers (don't have races, but sit amongst the gods and
~Adventurers

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: mission0 on May 04, 2010, 08:12:06 pm

Sounds good Strife

Anyone know where I can get the mapping program used in previous botg games?

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Emperor_Jonathan on May 04, 2010, 10:15:34 pm

Mapping program?

They did it by hand.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: mission0 on May 04, 2010, 10:18:03 pm

Ok then, just heard someone talk about it earlier and thought I would ask.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Strife26 on May 04, 2010, 11:04:05 pm

http://theagora.net76.net/forums/index.php?topic=82.0 (http://theagora.net76.net/forums/index.php?topic=82.0)

Begin.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Realmfighter on May 04, 2010, 11:19:23 pm

Sounds like something fun.

Got nothing better to do with my time.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Strife26 on May 05, 2010, 12:33:47 pm

4/6 primary God spots have been filled.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Rashilul on May 05, 2010, 01:11:37 pm

I can join? This sounds like fun.

DAMMIT I was making one, got all the way to symbols, but I accidently pressed alt+Numpad 4 with Num lock off. If there's no way to recover this, I might maybe make a new one.

_{FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK}

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Rooster on May 05, 2010, 04:32:06 pm

Ok, know what?
If you guys start another one, I'm in.
Especially if Akroma is in.

Then I'll say goodbye to lazyness, and I will post a turn as soon as possible, and as long and imaginative as possible.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Realmfighter on May 05, 2010, 07:36:01 pm

We need one more god.

Come on you guys. Community spirit.

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Akroma on May 06, 2010, 12:56:01 am

I don't have time for another one until summer though

edit: also, why is especialy underlined ?

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Rooster on May 07, 2010, 02:35:18 pm

Cause, you show much passion for BotG.
I bet it will be fun to play with you.
I'll make sure it's not another one battle of the lists. ^^

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: GlyphGryph on May 07, 2010, 04:36:25 pm

Oh man I would totally jump in this but alas, it is full :(

Wait, unless that... ah, you know what, its worth a try. I don't think Mission's counts, so...

Armok, better hurry up. You have till tonight before I take your slot. ;)

Title: Re: Battle of the Gods, was fun but is it still??
Post by: Realmfighter on May 07, 2010, 04:39:25 pm

I do believe that Armok is no a full god, and we therefore have one more spot.