Sorry if this has been said before, but I recently discovered a DF clone called "Goblin Camp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm-dPes5NgE)".
What are your thoughts on it?
@xxVampirePenguinxx I've worked on this for a month. Basic pathfinding and hauling is working just fine. Goblins handle the hauling of materials to the build site, and an orc walks up to do the actual building. If theres enough goblins around all the material gets hauled pretty much at once, it doesn't need to be done one-by-one.
GenericContainer 3 days ago
How is it just a video?Link you posted is definitely 'just a video'. And google provides no more info on the subject.
As it happens I'm GenericContainer (youtube)/ ihalila (Twitter). I didn't post the video here mainly because it's really early days, and I didn't expect that tweet to attract much any attention. Actually the only reason I even tweeted it was because I had just recently installed TweetDeck. I have to admit I'm surprised how fast it found it's way here + the bay12 forums.
Anyway, it's great to hear all the positive comments about it, it really motivates me to continue working on Goblin Camp. I've been meaning to make a game like this for ages, then along came DF and I thought "well, that handles that", but I really haven't liked the direction it's taken. So I guess I need to make it myself if I want it done right.
Obviously it's not a game yet, it's lacking a lot of things. But the things that are implemented I've put a lot of work into. For example jobs: Priorities are in and working fine, and I've also implemented a prerequisite system where a job will wait until all it's prerequisite jobs have been successfully completed. Building a workshop is a good example, it spawns the actual 'build' job, and spawns additional prerequisite 'bring the wood logs or whatever here' jobs, and will only assign the actual build job once all of the materials have been brought to the build site.
Also I feel that getting the UI working as it should be right from the beginning is pretty crucial. I've put a lot of work into making the UI work with whatever I might think of in the future, so that I can easily add features without having to mess around with the UI code at all.
The way they did the video, its like it's pointing out all the ways it differs from DF. "Buildings are not constrained to only one shape" indeed.
My thoughts:
1. It looks like a simplistic attempt at a DF clone.
2. Toady should steal their UI.
The funny thing is everything he's so proud of there in that video could easily be done in DF if toady wanted to.
If the UI is not being developed because toady doesn't want to then he's shooting himself in the foot. Doing something purely for greed to get more customers, more money, etc is obviously not a good way to make a game if you have any kind of artistic principles. But deliberately holding back the development of your own game is a folly. I would hate to see DF die a slow death as a martyr to the temple of the roguelike when it has clearly grown far beyond that.Not sure what Toady's stance is, but i suspect due to the future expansions as seen in his goals, Toady doesn't want to code a UI, and promptly have to tear it down to have to re-do later.
It would be unplayable without such tools as dwarf companion and therapist.Always playing it w/out any external tools. Sure, managing all these annoying migrants is a pain, but it is definitely playable, and once fort reaches pop limit, there are no migrants anyway.
It would be unplayable without such tools as dwarf companion and therapist.Always playing it w/out any external tools. Sure, managing all these annoying migrants is a pain, but it is definitely playable, and once fort reaches pop limit, there are no migrants anyway.
Mult. z-lvls & #roguelikes. My opinion: more complexity, difficult to visualize. Guardtowers/moats can be done without.From his twitter.
I don't like how the military screen has no mouse support when trying to click on the wizbang. It would be nice if when you clicked on the wizbang it cycled through the option to be cowardly or to be brave. More advanced options could be done by holding down on one of those and getting a submenu of wizbang effects. For keyboard input it could be keys c and b, with shift-C for submenu of cowardly wizbang, and Shift-B for brave wizbang. Doing it like this makes it easier to get a basic wizbang established while still allowing for the complex wizbang stances.
If you all really had that much issue with the UI, why not create a post about what is your problem with the UI, or what your new people found insurmountable with it.
Controlling with mouse?Your laptop has no mouse? No trackball? No touchpad? You control your operating system entirely with keyboard shortcuts?
So, no DF on laptops?
Shame, it's all I own.
Trackpads make me sick,Good job. Bit lame, but good job.
I lost the last mouse I stole.
Steal one tomorrow.
Living without mouse
Prevents me from playing games
Damn you, trackpad. Die!
I don't see how his UI is so great. It seems that the main difference is it is done with a mouse and not a keyboard. This means MORE sub-menus, which in my opinion means a worse UI.
Of course I'm used to playing FPS where I'm the utility guy and can do just about any action fairly quickly, so I am used to the mouse only being used to aim and fire, not be any more useful than that. Maybe that makes me pretty biased, knowing how to navigate a keyboard effectively. Most people I know who were turned off the game would also be turned off of RPG maker. It's about the pretty colors. The only way Toady could capture them is to make his game a full 3-d client. maybe if one of the visualizers allowed exchanges of information they might get more, but I doubt it.
If Toady really wanted to do a "prettying up" for the game, he should seperate tiles from letters and let us make real tilesets and keep our text intact.
For the UI, he's progressing fine. You have to play with the feature before you know how you want to establish it. If you all really had that much issue with the UI, why not create a post about what is your problem with the UI, or what your new people found insurmountable with it.
Here's an example of how to do that, and likely get a response:Quote from: FictionalI don't like how the military screen has no mouse support when trying to click on the wizbang. It would be nice if when you clicked on the wizbang it cycled through the option to be cowardly or to be brave. More advanced options could be done by holding down on one of those and getting a submenu of wizbang effects. For keyboard input it could be keys c and b, with shift-C for submenu of cowardly wizbang, and Shift-B for brave wizbang. Doing it like this makes it easier to get a basic wizbang established while still allowing for the complex wizbang stances.
Toady can examine that, and a few others, and puts it together to give it a test run in the next version, especially if it sounds like it would be a great improvement.
If you all think this guy's UI is so great, provide details as to why you think it is. I personally feel it's crap, since it just replaces current actions with mouse clicks instead. (Rectangles? k and u. Long walls? u. It'd be nice if wall segments allowed corners, but the commands work just fine, and we have a macro creator that you can setup to make your corners. I haven't used it yet, but it's there. All the clicking to me is stupid though. It requires more clicking in his "demo" than it requires to play Warcraft 3 effectively.)
Rectangles? k and u. Long walls? u.You, of couse, "forgot" about positioning it on screen. Multiple arrow keystrokes. Better to use mouse - mouse is created to pointing at things, like beginning and end of wall. Of course, that I think mouse is better is not demand to remove possibility to do it with keyboard.
Everyone has their own preferred method. No one method is better or worse than the others.Seems like surprisingly large group of people would deny mouse completely and forbid use of this poor rodent by someone else.
You can use the mouse for designations in DF.Yes, but it is incredibly unintuitive and clunky.
Beginning of designation:Rightclick-> enterYou can use the mouse for designations in DF.Yes, but it is incredibly unintuitive and clunky.
Doesn't really matter though, Toady will do what he will do. :)
How is rightclick->enter intuitive?Beginning of designation:Rightclick-> enterYou can use the mouse for designations in DF.Yes, but it is incredibly unintuitive and clunky.
Doesn't really matter though, Toady will do what he will do. :)
End/corner of designation: Rightclick->enter
How is that unintuitive? Toady just needs to let us do that will constructed walls.
As side note, Toady make his life harder by making UI initimately connected to inner working of DF engine. Good grief.I think the interface-hate is mostly overwrought, and a lot of the alternative suggestions I hear are pretty disappointing (I read five pages of the SA thread where most were agreeing that what DF really needs is to be isometric). That said, the above quote is dead on. What I'd really like to see is an interface controlled as much as possible by a raw or init file, allowing the fanbase to create skins/UI-mods. That way Toady wouldn't have to worry so much about wasting his time on an interface that might be made obsolete in the future, and we'd all get sweet interfaces catering to our personal tastes.
How is rightclick->enter intuitive?Beginning of designation:Rightclick-> enterYou can use the mouse for designations in DF.Yes, but it is incredibly unintuitive and clunky.
Doesn't really matter though, Toady will do what he will do. :)
End/corner of designation: Rightclick->enter
How is that unintuitive? Toady just needs to let us do that will constructed walls.
There is no feedback, no way to judge distance or precision (especially in unexplored underground tiles where there is often no visual grid for reference), and it requires shuffling of your hands because everything else is keyboard-centric. You have to first hit d, use the keyboard to find the correct spot with numpad/arrows + (>)(<) keys, then move your right hand over to the mouse, then right click, then either move your hand back to the keyboard to hit enter or use your left hand to hit enter. Then repeat, right click again, enter again.
On top of this, the feature is entirely undocumented and only discoverable by trial and error or accident because no other menu uses that system of control.
Really... you think this is intuitive? Why can't I just leftclick and drag to define a square? or leftclick->drag to draw and rightclick->drag for a square. That would be about 1000 times more intuitive than rightclick->enter.
I don't get the zealotry surrounding DF sometimes. Lol. Why can no one ever make a game even influenced by DF? Do you only play RTS games made by Blizzard, because the rest "stole" the idea from Warcraft: Orcs and Humans? Do you only play FPS games by iD software because they created Wolfenstein 3D?Who said the guy couldn't make his game? I hope he does so, and I hope it's a good one. I will play them both.
Hell, by the standard being advanced here, Toady stole the god-game intricacy and simulation ideas from Will Wright and Peter Molyneaux, heh.
Anyway, Toady is not going down this avenue of streamlining and making it more game-y rather than simulation-y, at least in the forseeable future. It's a legit angle for someone else to pursue. Good for this guy.
Who said the guy couldn't make his game? I hope he does so, and I hope it's a good one. I will play them both.
Goblin camp just looks like a settlers clone in ASCII with a name parodying DF. Way to be lame and 10 years behind the times.
The general impression left by comments like those by Mfbrew below is that many DF-zealots have an antipathy to anyone being influenced by DF. Even calling it a clone is a touch disparaging, since it's clear that it's more like a development fork than a straight clone.
I don't get the zealotry surrounding DF sometimes. Lol. Why can no one ever make a game even influenced by DF? Do you only play RTS games made by Blizzard, because the rest "stole" the idea from Warcraft: Orcs and Humans? Do you only play FPS games by iD software because they created Wolfenstein 3D?I'll have you know that Warcraft's idea was stolen too.
Hell, by the standard being advanced here, Toady stole the god-game intricacy and simulation ideas from Will Wright and Peter Molyneaux, heh.
Anyway, Toady is not going down this avenue of streamlining and making it more game-y rather than simulation-y, at least in the forseeable future. It's a legit angle for someone else to pursue. Good for this guy.
The general impression left by comments like those by Mfbrew below is that many DF-zealots have an antipathy to anyone being influenced by DF. Even calling it a clone is a touch disparaging, since it's clear that it's more like a development fork than a straight clone.You're just seeing what you were looking for.
Probably one of the more interesting features in 0.1 is a basic stock manager. You can define minimums for item types and the manager will distribute jobs to your workshops in an attempt to fulfill those minimums. Other than that I'm putting in basic stuff required for it to be playable like combat, hunger and thirst, random groups of monsters that attack your settlement (no real sieges yet).
Basically 0.1 is going to be in a state that you can designate farm plots and stockpiles, chop down trees for walls and workshops, get a basic economy running (without you having to keep ordering up basic necessities every now and then) and station military squads to defend your settlement from roving monsters.
I'm hoping to get this done in around 2 weeks, but that's not a definite schedule so don't lynch me if it slips a bit, I don't want to start promising things prematurely. Work and life in general means I don't have much time to work on this.
There's a lot of little things to do but I'm not going to bother listing each point on my list. I've already got things planned a few versions out, there's a lot of nice things upcoming.
Also all the talk about if this is going to be "just a df clone" or something else, it's definitely something else. I have my own plans and what I want out of this is not df with a better interface, Goblin Camp is going to be it's own game.
Also, I have a little german shepherd puppy...
Even calling it a clone is a touch disparaging, since it's clear that it's more like a development fork than a straight clone.With the name it has, which is OBVIOUS and CLEAR reference to DF, its hard to think of it as anything other than clone.
Eternal Suggestions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/eternal_voting.php)Standing Production order is arguably an interface improvement, namely more automation so the user to have to constantly order production.
#5: Better Graphics Support
#12: Integrated Dwarf Foreman
#15: Abstract the Interface
#27: Interface Improvements
If it was so critical, how come Improved Hauling and Standing Production orders are higher than Graphics support? And Graphics support isn't about UI anyway, it's just about separating some things from the game so as to allow tilesets to be worth something.
#6 with 440 votes is improved mechanics, which brings in more machines. That is nearly 3.8 times more votes for more machines that mechanics make versus allowing people to customize the interface.
The category of interface improvements only has 65 votes.
You wonder why he hasn't done it? It costs NOTHING to show how much it is wanted, and yet in the top ten there isn't really anything that results in an improved interface!
With the name it has, which is OBVIOUS and CLEAR reference to DF, its hard to think of it as anything other than clone.Eh... It's not a clone. It's a tribute, fan project or "inspired by". You don't call flash games with diablo characters "Diablo Clones", don't you?
And many times stated that he disapproves forking/cloning and feels insecure about it. Good feeling Toady == better/more coding.He can disapprove forking/cloning all he wants, he still can't do anything about it. People have a right to make whatever game they feel like making. It is not his place to decide what others can or cannot do on their own, so long as they do not steal his code or infringe on his property.
People have a right to make whatever game they feel like making.Yes, and other people have a right to call it whatever they like, including 'clone', act zealotly and so on.
I didn't dispute that...People have a right to make whatever game they feel like making.Yes, and other people have a right to call it whatever they like, including 'clone', act zealotly and so on.
Quote from: Aryon on Something AwfulProbably one of the more interesting features in 0.1 is a basic stock manager. You can define minimums for item types and the manager will distribute jobs to your workshops in an attempt to fulfill those minimums. Other than that I'm putting in basic stuff required for it to be playable like combat, hunger and thirst, random groups of monsters that attack your settlement (no real sieges yet).
Basically 0.1 is going to be in a state that you can designate farm plots and stockpiles, chop down trees for walls and workshops, get a basic economy running (without you having to keep ordering up basic necessities every now and then) and station military squads to defend your settlement from roving monsters.
I'm hoping to get this done in around 2 weeks, but that's not a definite schedule so don't lynch me if it slips a bit, I don't want to start promising things prematurely. Work and life in general means I don't have much time to work on this.
There's a lot of little things to do but I'm not going to bother listing each point on my list. I've already got things planned a few versions out, there's a lot of nice things upcoming.
Also all the talk about if this is going to be "just a df clone" or something else, it's definitely something else. I have my own plans and what I want out of this is not df with a better interface, Goblin Camp is going to be it's own game.
Also, I have a little german shepherd puppy...
And many times stated that he disapproves forking/cloning and feels insecure about it. Good feeling Toady == better/more coding.He can disapprove forking/cloning all he wants, he still can't do anything about it. People have a right to make whatever game they feel like making. It is not his place to decide what others can or cannot do on their own, so long as they do not steal his code or infringe on his property.
Incidentally, wasn't Dwarf Fortress itself inspired by LOTR and the mines of moria?
Well, he does seem to have a Scamps substitute.
It was his mention that he didn't like the direction that it was going and then only provides a demo of his fancy UI that causes the rage. Really what is he thinking?
He said he made it because he didn't like the direction Dwarf Fortress was going.
What.
The somethingawful thread goes into further details about his plans for the game. It sounds like he's totally missed the point of DF and wants to make a plain citybuilding game without any of the crazy science or worldgen DF has.
ITT: people calling a very early pre-alpha build of a game worthless.I agree with this. There is nothing wrong with making a game based off of something you were inspired by. For example, Minecraft was inspired by DF, but Minecraft is not like DF at all so does that make it "miss the point"? No. Not only does having more games of a "genre" make competition, but it also adds new ideas to the table. Everyone's got their own vision, the guy making Goblin Camp may have a different one than Toady's but that doesn't make it better or worse.
Seriously, guys, stop it. you're making me feel bad about being a DF fan, and I've been playing since 2D. I'm just glad no other fanbase feels this way about a game, otherwise we might not have progressed past Doom and Akalabeth. He's making a game clearly influenced by DF and that's a Good Thing. I, personally, would like to see multiple projects along this line, so that there might be a bit of competition.
Over on the SA forums they're saying that DF is just a mad libs generator, and in a lot of ways they're right. The stated purpose of DF is to automatically generate a world, replete with legends, civilizations, monsters, and people. We like it because not only is it a madlibs generator, but it's a damn fine madlibs generator.
This Kobald Camp project already has some things that I think it does better then DF (and anyone who tries to flat out say I'm wrong is a moron. Toady is, in fact, human, and he'll be the first to admit he's fallible). Aside from the UI (which is great so far) I like the fact that the real work is done by your orcs, and all the menial labour seems to be done by the gobbos. I absolutely love the idea of setting a hard floor for materials, so that you never need to worry about running out of, for example, iron bars. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that if you have enough goblins when you issue a work order they'll bring all the materials to the workshop at once.
And finally, anyone saying anything denigrating about the gameplay: Don't be stupid, the guy only started it about a month ago, there is no gameplay yet.
The goblin camp guy just deserves a bit of flaming for his choice of words about not liking "the direction DF has been going" when it's clear he never understood DF to begin with.Because clearly, DF is perfect in every way and anyone who has a differing opinion is just stupid.
BURN HIM!
Mutilate the corpses!
A few other things as well...
Therefore, regarding the rage he is getting... He was asking for it....You're kidding, right? Please tell me this is just a terrible attempt at sarcasm. Because Jesus.
Creating a new racing league because the current racing league is too burdened by rules that counter its initial purpose: good excuse to "not like the direction it's going"
Noisily splitting from a racing league you're in because you don't like cars and motorcycles after all: retarded.
What people take issue with is the way Aryon is flamebaiting DF fans. His marketing (if we're going to call it that - the game is likely to be freeware) is decidedly anti-DF, pandering to this "hurrr DF is too hard and complex, Toady needs to make his games consoletard-friendly" mentality that riles up the smart guys.
What people take issue with is the way Aryon is flamebaiting DF fans. His marketing (if we're going to call it that - the game is likely to be freeware) is decidedly anti-DF, pandering to this "hurrr DF is too hard and complex, Toady needs to make his games consoletard-friendly" mentality that riles up the smart guys.
Lame move, really. While he is being very civil on the surface, he's using anti-DF bitterness to further his cause. The whole "I have a small pet too" thing is kinda creepy on top of that. You have to read between the lines a bit to see how the guy is trying to position himself. Some of you are going to be too young to "get this" but it's a powerplay.
Lame move, really. While he is being very civil on the surface, he's using anti-DF bitterness to further his cause. The whole "I have a small pet too" thing is kinda creepy on top of that. You have to read between the lines a bit to see how the guy is trying to position himself. Some of you are going to be too young to "get this" but it's a powerplay.
This is maybe the problem.
EDIT: Case in point, how does suddenly mentioning a german shepherd puppy has anything to do with the rest of his comment?
"I have a puppy instead", which while maintaining a polite tone, is quiet, calculating character assassination against Toady
"oh yeah Toady isn't doing this and doesn't listen to people but in my game"
He said he made it because he didn't like the direction Dwarf Fortress was going.
His "Demo" makes a big point of showing off his UI.
He didn't talk about anything else the game has. It's just a fancy UI, and that made because he didn't like the direction Dwarf Fortress was going.
Therefore, regarding the rage he is getting... He was asking for it.
It was a joking answer to a quoted joking question, which for some reason was omitted from the copy-paste. You guys are pretty clearly arguing in bad faith if that's all the effort you're making to understand Aryoc.Sorry, I'm putting words in his mouth when it's clearly what he's doing. Well, you decide for yourself. I've decided."oh yeah Toady isn't doing this and doesn't listen to people but in my game"
It's amazing how evil you can make someone sound when you put words in their mouth.
The Cheshire Cat posted:QuoteMake sure to add in PROPER graphical support though, not the "tileset" support that DF has where sometimes you end up with letters in actual text being replaced by graphics, because that character is used to represent something in the game world as well. There's nothing wrong with placeholder graphics, you just don't want to code yourself into a corner where it gets extremely difficult to replace said placeholder graphics.
Yeah don't worry, I'll implement tileset support, not "replace the font with sprites and hope for the best".
No worries, I know what happens when you want to put in everything possible in your game, it just turns into an enormous pile of half-done and half-planned features. I'm doing my best to keep things in focus, and work on the things that really matter playability-wise. Especially now that people are interested in GC I'm working to get a playable version out, but I also don't want to release anything too unfinished. Also before anyone says it, I'm not rushing things and coding poorly just to get something out the door.
I'm doing my best to get a version out for people to try, feedback is really important. Of course I have my own vision for what I want, but I also want to hear peoples ideas. For example some dude on the bay12 forums mentioned someone else's UI idea that had a scrolling announcements box, so I just implemented that 5 minutes ago. It's a better idea than just seeing one at a time, and I don't know why I didn't think of it too. Just goes to show that sometimes listening to others is a good idea.
It'd be a project in itself to make some kind of overlay utility for DF, I really don't see any point. DF really needs a lot more than just some utilities.
Funny you should mention both of these things. I have items / constructions / creatures defined in XML files exactly for the ease of modification and addition, and I also have pathfinding done in it's own thread to use multiple cores, which most people have these days.
I definitely want this to be it's own game and not just a clone. I'm going to go in a different direction, but the basics are going to be pretty similar.
Sorry, I'm putting words in his mouth when it's clearly what he's doing. Well, you decide for yourself. I've decided.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3293395&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=86
I'm making a similar game to DF. DF doesn't have "blahblahblah" but my game does. I'll never mention Toady by name but I'm doing all these things a competent coder does unlike veiled reference to DF is-too-hard hurf-durf crowd complaint.
I'm not angry about it. Like I said it's nothing personal.
Are we in agreement that you can make criticism of a game without the thinly disguised "I'm making a panacea to solve all your problems (unlike that guy), here play my game".
See what I posted about Impaler. Same shit, different person.
Snarky comments that are basically "oh yeah Toady isn't doing this and doesn't listen to people but in my game" and "I have a puppy instead", which while maintaining a polite tone, is quiet, calculating character assassination against Toady - who does in fact listen and has listened to us. Do some of you not see it as such, backstabbing?
Yeah don't worry, I'll implement tileset support, not "replace the font with sprites and hope for the best".
No worries, I know what happens when you want to put in everything possible in your game, it just turns into an enormous pile of half-done and half-planned features. I'm doing my best to keep things in focus, and work on the things that really matter playability-wise. Especially now that people are interested in GC I'm working to get a playable version out, but I also don't want to release anything too unfinished. Also before anyone says it, I'm not rushing things and coding poorly just to get something out the door.
I'm doing my best to get a version out for people to try, feedback is really important. Of course I have my own vision for what I want, but I also want to hear peoples ideas. For example some dude on the bay12 forums mentioned someone else's UI idea that had a scrolling announcements box, so I just implemented that 5 minutes ago. It's a better idea than just seeing one at a time, and I don't know why I didn't think of it too. Just goes to show that sometimes listening to others is a good idea.
It'd be a project in itself to make some kind of overlay utility for DF, I really don't see any point. DF really needs a lot more than just some utilities.
Funny you should mention both of these things. I have items / constructions / creatures defined in XML files exactly for the ease of modification and addition, and I also have pathfinding done in it's own thread to use multiple cores, which most people have these days.
I'm making a similar game to DF. DF doesn't have "blahblahblah" but my game does. I'll never mention Toady by name but I'm doing all these things a competent coder does unlike veiled reference to DF is-too-hard hurf-durf crowd complaint.
I can't recall any English saying that goes for this but we have a nice one here in Czech Republic: "If you really want to beat the dog, you'll always find a stick".
Foot: How do you say I'm making up quotes? That's what he said. Like I said, other people can decide.
"oh yeah Toady isn't doing this and doesn't listen to people but in my game"
DF doesn't have "blahblahblah" but my game does. I'll never mention Toady by name but I'm doing all these things a competent coder does unlike veiled reference to DF is-too-hard hurf-durf crowd complaint.
I can't recall any English saying that goes for this but we have a nice one here in Czech Republic: "If you really want to beat the dog, you'll always find a stick".thats pretty good I'll have to remember that.
"oh yeah Toady isn't doing this and doesn't listen to people but in my game"
DF doesn't have "blahblahblah" but my game does. I'll never mention Toady by name but I'm doing all these things a competent coder does unlike veiled reference to DF is-too-hard hurf-durf crowd complaint.
I'm willing to admit I'm wrong.
Aryoc hasn't proven to me that he's not just some other sucker looking to ride DF's popularity while making veiled disparaging comments about the game and it's creator.I'm willing to admit I'm wrong.
Prove it. 2 out of the 4 posts above yours on this page were people calling you out on the most obvious way you were wrong, will you admit it?
Well he doesn't like some things in DF, so he wants to make them differently in his game, in a way that he think is better. Everyone has his own vision of how X could be done better. Nothing wrong in talking about your own vision.
Quote from: KaelGotDwarves"oh yeah Toady isn't doing this and doesn't listen to people but in my game"Quote from: KaelGotDwarvesDF doesn't have "blahblahblah" but my game does. I'll never mention Toady by name but I'm doing all these things a competent coder does unlike veiled reference to DF is-too-hard hurf-durf crowd complaint.
Even if these were true quotes, would they be untrue statements? Ayroc's just saying that what he wants in his game is a different direction than Toady's. Please explain in your own words an example of how he should express that idea in a way that doesn't offend you.
KaelGotDwarves: Are you avoiding a valid request?
He doesn't have to prove anyone and you don't need to blow this out of proportions. It's a game idea inspired by DF, and he set off to do it. This will not "run Toady out of business", because people can like two games of the same "genre" at the same time.Aryoc hasn't proven to me that he's not just some other sucker looking to ride DF's popularity while making veiled disparaging comments about the game and it's creator.I'm willing to admit I'm wrong.
Prove it. 2 out of the 4 posts above yours on this page were people calling you out on the most obvious way you were wrong, will you admit it?
Like I said, if he proves me wrong then I'll admit it. But that requires a statement from him and proof through his work and dedication to his game.
That'll take time.
KaelGotDwarves: Are you avoiding a valid request?
Are we in agreement that you can make criticism of a game without the thinly disguised "I'm making a panacea to solve all your problems (unlike that guy), here play my game".
See what I posted about Impaler. Same shit, different person.
If it turns out good, that's cool. Right now, though, my main hope for this project is that it'll provide Toady with some healthy competition, and help him realize that maintaining a usable UI is worth it.
Quote from: myselfAre we in agreement that you can make criticism of a game without the thinly disguised "I'm making a panacea to solve all your problems (unlike that guy), here play my game".
See what I posted about Impaler. Same shit, different person.
I posted it even before the question was asked.
That's just my opinion and no way related to anyone else or the collected view of this forum. Happy?
Are you going to keep hounding me over my personal opinion? I guess that's normal to do that to strangers on the internet nowadays.
What's really funny is seeing all the bay12 crowd get so worked up in defense over their "savior" as they complain about Aryoc sycophants there.Fixed that for you.
I think the real problem is neither him nor the DF fanboys, but all the folks jumping in with completely irrelevant comments in an attempt to be impartial peacemakers.
We may be jumping the gun by getting angry at the guy, but it's a natural response given the situation.
We may be jumping the gun by getting angry at the guy, but it's a natural response given the situation.
If you don't see the passive aggressive jabs at DF in Ayroc's posts, then you really need to get out more.Assume makes an ass out of me and you. ;)
We may be jumping the gun by getting angry at the guy, but it's a natural response given the situation.
What is the situation you're in where the natural response is anger?
but if you're the cat getting angry, why are you getting angry at a vet who is giving another cat a shot in another clinic?Aw shit, now you have 2cats.
Assume makes an ass out of me and you. ;)that would be "You and Me" otherwise the joke makes no sence. Ass u me
What is the situation you're in where the natural response is anger
Somebody is taking passive aggressive stabs at one of my favorite games
I get pissed at people overseas for making fun of American football too, and I get mad at people who rag on my favorite music - guess what, red blooded males aren't always docile and understanding. It's normal and natural as long as you don't hurt anybody.Protip: While the chest pounding and "REAL MEN DEFEND THEIR OBSESSIONS TO THE DEATH nonsense is kind of hilariously adorable, having a penis neither entitles you to nor requires this behavior. Try again.
How is it more passive-aggressive than the criticisms posted in DF Suggestions? What's passive about it at all?
Foot: word choice and timing of posts
izzy: agree to disagree, girly manI'm a woman, you idiot.
Thread lock request.
Thread lock request.
I propose any thread that pops up on these forums about games other than dwarf fortress should be IMMEDIATELY moved to other games forums or deleted. If not the posters here aren't going to be able to handle it and turn all conversation into nothing other than attempted character assassinations of the other game's authors. In all honesty I just don't think we can handle it.
Thank you for passive aggressively attacking for people attempting to see the forum rules followed.
character assassination against Toady
I propose any thread that pops up on these forums about games other than dwarf fortress should be IMMEDIATELY moved to other games forums or deleted. If not the posters here aren't going to be able to handle it and turn all conversation into nothing other than attempted character assassinations of the other game's authors. In all honesty I just don't think we can handle it.
Good job.Does he say what he's writing it in?
I am intrigued by the recent consideration, the dev is saying it may go open source once there's something to show.
He said he made it because he didn't like the direction Dwarf Fortress was going.
His "Demo" makes a big point of showing off his UI.
He didn't talk about anything else the game has. It's just a fancy UI, and that made because he didn't like the direction Dwarf Fortress was going.
Therefore, regarding the rage he is getting... He was asking for it.
May the better game win. Just because Italy won the world cup in 2006 doesn't mean they'll win in 2010. Good games come and go, if a roguelike similar to DF pops up within a year and its better than DF, well then I'll play it. Competition produces innovation and innovation produces success.
If you're going to circle the wagons because someone tweeted a youtube vid he didn't think would become noticed that happens to have a feature DF couldn't replicate for years, then you're probably going to spend alot of your time bad mouthing people on these forums in the name of your lord god toady.
I wonder if people on this board realise just how many threads there have been on SA since the beginning? I wonder if people realise how much early publicity of DF actually came from SA "let's play" threads? If anything they are the true fan-base, not the denizens of this forum.
Come on, after what you've seen from this thread, you really should know by now that this will just provoke the members who are raging the most, and not actually achieve anything productive. Some people don't listen to reason.Some people need to lose their "us versus them" attitude and realise that DF is alittle bigger than them and this forum. DF would be a better game if this place wasn't so hostile to anything other than Toady's written word.
That's probably just my paranoia from years of forum whoring
Come on, after what you've seen from this thread, you really should know by now that this will just provoke the members who are raging the most, and not actually achieve anything productive. Some people don't listen to reason.Some people need to lose their "us versus them" attitude and realise that DF is alittle bigger than them and this forum. DF would be a better game if this place wasn't so hostile to anything other than Toady's written word.
I suspect jeffb is the guy that made that video. 10 posts and pretty much all of them are complaining about the UI.
I wonder if people on this board realise just how many threads there have been on SA since the beginning?There were definitely more threads on 4chan than on SA. So does it mean everyone should start loving 4chan and its habitants?
So does it mean everyone should start loving 4chan and its habitants?
He said he made it because he didn't like the direction Dwarf Fortress was going.
His "Demo" makes a big point of showing off his UI.
He didn't talk about anything else the game has. It's just a fancy UI, and that made because he didn't like the direction Dwarf Fortress was going.
Therefore, regarding the rage he is getting... He was asking for it.
I still don't get this. How is he asking for it? One of the things he doesn't like about DF's current direction is the lack of UI, so he's showing off a better UI.
He said he made it because he didn't like the direction Dwarf Fortress was going.
His "Demo" makes a big point of showing off his UI.
He didn't talk about anything else the game has. It's just a fancy UI, and that made because he didn't like the direction Dwarf Fortress was going.
Therefore, regarding the rage he is getting... He was asking for it.
That is incredibly stupid...
Good on him, he didn't like the direction DF was going so instead of sitting back and complaining like the aspies on this board he decided to make his own game. What would you rather him do?
How about post something that, I don't know, contains some kind of gameplay elements? "Look at my mouse UI! Isn't it pretty!" is a deliberate stab with no content. He's gotta put his money where his mouth is. Even Impaler was able to provide that. He made a grand claim, that his game was inspired by Dwarf Fortress but he didn't like the path it was going, and then decided to back up that claim, he used a UI video. It wasn't a video on how flooring requires material. It wasn't a video on how there is goblins and orcs. It was a video expressing his UI. A UI is important, defines a game, but the UI is not any way to get good positive information out for your game.
His comments are brilliantly constructed critiques of Dwarf Fortress that have nothing to back them up. It is rare to see such a deliberate troll against an entire community executed so flawlessly. He was "Asking" for the hate. He now has it. He can point to us and say "See, look at the fanboi rage!"
Anyone who spends a few minutes examining his comments can see what he is doing though. He isn't a positive force in programming, unlike Toady One. This isn't part of the "Open Source Battleground" that Impaler was fighting. This is deliberate trolling with someone who has nothing to back it up.
I could write a program demonstrating EVERYTHING in his video in less than a day. If I say that I did it because I didn't like the direction his game was going and made it black on white rather than white on black his shows, what would I be trying to accomplish? If you guys who support his actions really think he was so innocent, show me a video posted prior to his "UI Demo" that shows gameplay features.
This isn't Fanboiism, it's pure and simple hatred over hostile methods exhibited by a trolling programmer.
What? You're saying his critiques are invalid because he didn't post a video of gameplay elements?
When he discusses this rather than how he doesn't like that most features in a different alpha game are half-finished, I will consider your view on his actions valid.
So, Goblin Camp. What will the elephants and carp of that game be like?
The only problem I have with it is that its ripping off Kobold Camps name. Goblins live in towers people.
Living in rural China, I occasionally have internet outages for a few days, but this thread evolved rather well without my input anyway. Good to see the level-headed forum-goers came out in strength here, but a few posters here need to be a little less passionate and possessive about DF, heh. In the past, I've played games simply because they had great communities built up around them, so the way that a forum community acts as a whole can affect the success of the game that it supports. Let's keep that in mind.Did you ever see a puppy win from a kitten? Or a dog against a cat win?
I'm taking a sig quote from this thread, if its okay. The highlight of it, imo.
Got a lot done yesterday, just nothing condensable into a tweet. Also worked on documentation in anticipation of the open sourcing after 0.1
The guy made a Youtube video, some twits, and some posts in a thread talking about his game (I'd hardly call that a large amount of advertising) and receives a massive wave of hostility and backlash from this forum.And posts like this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59291.0) obviously have nothing to do with this hostility. Along with all hostility on SA towards df and df's community, and this goon's raid on DF forum. Sure, its all DFers blame. </sarcasm>
Why are you guys screaming about this and not Dwarfed? This makes us look bad.
Isn't that guy sort of part of the community, too?Why are you guys screaming about this and not Dwarfed? This makes us look bad.
B-b-but when this community does it it's different!
Isn't that guy sort of part of the community, too?Why are you guys screaming about this and not Dwarfed? This makes us look bad.
B-b-but when this community does it it's different!
My own personell opinion is that Dwarfed is not a clone of DF more like a homage to it.I agree, just making a point.
Wow, what a wankfest. You guys can shit talk Goblin Camp all you want. Whether it succeeds or not will depend on its own merits. It's amusing to watch a few folks get personally offended about silly things, as if DF were some kind of physical representation of you, or as if the game actually belonged to you. Seriously, some of you are making yourselves look like real ass clowns. They're games. Relax. :-*Word.
The guy made a Youtube video, some twits, and some posts in a thread talking about his game (I'd hardly call that a large amount of advertising) and receives a massive wave of hostility and backlash from this forum.And posts like this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59291.0) obviously have nothing to do with this hostility. Along with all hostility on SA towards df and df's community, and this goon's raid on DF forum. Sure, its all DFers blame. </sarcasm>
Gonna give Goblin Camp a try when it comes out.
Gonna give Goblin Camp a try when it comes out.
Saying it's going to be a better game is utterly ridiculous, I'm sorry. And I'm not even being a fanboy here.
Everyone should seriously chill.Actually, on second thought, dont. To be purfectly honest as a grandmaster lurker watching this is quite amusing.
So, perhaps seperating the UI from the core engine could be part of Core 53. Only time will tell. It would make a nice addition to the Presentation Arc, that's for sure.
- Core53, MORE RAW FILES: Everything should be moved out of the code and into the raw folders, insofar as the processor will allow it. There needs to be a generalized framework for things like plant and animal related materials and products. Not all of the building types will make it out, but workshop and furnace types are certainly good candidates.[/l][/l]
There’s a lot of speculation about what my aims are exactly with Goblin Camp, so I’ll try and explain things here.
I’ve played roguelikes for a long time, and as a kid I used to draw cities using ASCII back when PC’s still used DOS. In addition to roguelikes, I’ve always been a fan of the Civilization series, Dungeon Keeper and more recently Anno 1404. When Dwarf Fortress came along I was really excited, it seemed to combine the genres that I’ve always liked. I was content with DF for a long time, but then I got to thinking of all the things I’d like to see done with the genre (genre being roguelike citybuilder, I suppose. Who cares what its called). So I had 3 choices:
* Send Toady my suggestions and hope he does things the way I’d like
* Hope someone else makes a game just the way I’d like
* Do it myself
I’m a bit impatient, so the obvious choice was to do it myself, so here I am.
I want to stress that I’m not setting out to make a Dwarf Fortress clone, it wouldn’t make much sense really. I’m making a game that is inspired by Dwarf Fortress, and there will be certain similarities. Using similar indicators for things like stockpiles and creatures and such that are used in DF, Nethack and so forth is a conscious design choice to make getting into the game easy for people already familiar with DF, or roguelikes in general.
Goblin Camp is going to be more about the broader decisions, and less about micromanagement. You’ll steer your economy by setting minimum production values, and organizing your workshops and stockpiles to ensure efficient hauling. What you won’t care about are who the individual workers are, or who’s assigned to what workshop. Orcs will gain skill in their chosen profession, but assigning jobs to the best workers is left to the game. You the player will want to organize your defences and military in such a way as to keep your working class alive, because the longer they work the better they get. Constant bloodbaths at your workshops will mean that you’ll always have unskilled labor.
This leads to an important point, orcs and goblins (especially goblins) are expendable. An ordinary orcs life is short and brutal, only a select few will survive long enough to become notable individuals.
I’ll expand on all that later, I don’t want this post to stretch too long. As a parting point I want to bring up another big factor in the development of Goblin Camp: Feedback. I want to hear all your suggestions, ideas and critique. I’m not making Goblin Camp just for myself, but for everyone else as well, and as such everyone’s comments are important. Also, Goblin Camp will be open sourced after the 0.1 release, and contributions to the code are encouraged.
Guys, you're getting trolled. Badly.
(Don't point it out, that goes against the Deep Magic.)
(Don't point it out, that goes against the Deep Magic.)
I will eat your eyeballs.
Just try it. You don't even have a face anymore, let alone a mouth :P.
Just try it. You don't even have a face anymore, let alone a mouth :P.
Wanna bet?
http://www.goblincamp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3&p=7#p7
Oh jesus. Are you really... aw, I hated that guy's mouth. Stay away from my eyes.
http://www.goblincamp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3&p=7#p7Oh, man, Goblin Camp has a forum now? DF does, too! What a blatantly obvious theft of ideas!
Actually, quite a few people on the SA thread called him an ass for doing that. One guy != a "raid." But hey, don't let me get in the way of your persecution complex on Toady's behalf there, sport.The guy made a Youtube video, some twits, and some posts in a thread talking about his game (I'd hardly call that a large amount of advertising) and receives a massive wave of hostility and backlash from this forum.And posts like this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59291.0) obviously have nothing to do with this hostility. Along with all hostility on SA towards df and df's community, and this goon's raid on DF forum. Sure, its all DFers blame. </sarcasm>
Gonna give Goblin Camp a try when it comes out.
Can anyone link me to the Something Awful thread on Goblin Camp? I'm interested to know more about his plans.
Does anyone here know why some SA members dislike this forum? I had always assumed there would be a lot of overlap with people here going there also.
Can anyone link me to the Something Awful thread on Goblin Camp? I'm interested to know more about his plans.
Does anyone here know why some SA members dislike this forum? I had always assumed there would be a lot of overlap with people here going there also.
I'm confused about the first 6 pages of this thread. Why the hostility?Because of morons :D.
I know a few people who had their own ideas for a DF clone but didn't talk about it much because of (the totally rational) fear of the DF fans tearing them apart like a pack of dingos at a daycare centre.They fear not of DF fans, they fear of DF trolls. DF fans are rotating fanblades, and they are nothing oustide of complex weapon traps.
The fan rage is almost never called for, but I cant help but see some of it.
*snip*
However nerdrage doesn't anything productive.
One guy != a "raid."Go through this and other goblincamp threads and count how much accounts are registered with sole purpose of defending gc/trolling here.
One guy != a "raid."Go through this and other goblincamp threads and count how much accounts are registered with sole purpose of defending gc/trolling here.
Isn't it quite surprising to see people to come to some game's forum with sole purpose of defending another game there? Talk about zealotry now.
Anybody else find it funny that the video mentions that buildings aren't all one shape, as if that was what all DF players wanted?Its been mentioned in the thread, yes.
Anybody?
One guy != a "raid."Go through this and other goblincamp threads and count how much accounts are registered with sole purpose of defending gc/trolling here.
Isn't it quite surprising to see people to come to some game's forum with sole purpose of defending another game there? Talk about zealotry now.
A "raid" would imply an organized attack. That is not what this is. This was a matter of this thread being cross linked over at SA and a few of us individuals individually wanted to participate in the discussion. In fact, we were asked in our own thread over at SA not to start flame wars here. It's pretty xenophobic to attribute every disagreement from a stranger as a "raid". We are all part of the Dwarf Fortress community.
Anybody else find it funny that the video mentions that buildings aren't all one shape, as if that was what all DF players wanted?
Anybody?
Does anyone here know why some SA members dislike this forum? I had always assumed there would be a lot of overlap with people here going there also.
But, man, you guys do some silly stuff here. You needs mods in the worst way.
But, man, you guys do some silly stuff here. You needs mods in the worst way.
Oh yeah, you're right. The SA forums have none of these problems.
One guy != a "raid."Go through this and other goblincamp threads and count how much accounts are registered with sole purpose of defending gc/trolling here.
Isn't it quite surprising to see people to come to some game's forum with sole purpose of defending another game there? Talk about zealotry now.