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Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: Solace on July 04, 2010, 10:55:35 pm

Title: Ringworld
Post by: Solace on July 04, 2010, 10:55:35 pm
Most worlds are made of a perfect square, of course, but what if instead of a 128X128, I made a, oh, 16X1024 world? Specifically, would the increased space between nations lead to more surviving worldgen, would it hurt trade, ect?
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Capntastic on July 04, 2010, 11:31:31 pm
I dunno, try it and report back.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 04, 2010, 11:32:48 pm
I don't think its been tried. At least not that I have seen.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Josephus on July 04, 2010, 11:33:42 pm
Do so, for science and whatnot.

There should be hilarious consequences if it goes wrong.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 04, 2010, 11:34:22 pm
I wonder what a 1 tile wide world would be like.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Itnetlolor on July 04, 2010, 11:42:01 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on July 04, 2010, 11:34:22 pm
I wonder what a 1 tile wide world would be like.
Fun adventuring
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Josephus on July 04, 2010, 11:45:38 pm
Quote from: Itnetlolor on July 04, 2010, 11:42:01 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on July 04, 2010, 11:34:22 pm
I wonder what a 1 tile wide world would be like.
Fun adventuring

You try moving, enter the sites of four different civilizations at once, are ambushed by a cougar, a pack of wolves, and several nightwings, then promptly explode. Just because.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 04, 2010, 11:48:04 pm
> North

You fall off the world.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Mush on July 05, 2010, 04:37:13 am
Ha, found this just as I finished Engineers of Ringworld...

Anyway, it shouldn't hurt trade as long as the civs are all connected in some way. If you have access to a civ, you can trade with them (other than goblins, of course).

I'll probably give this a shot too.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Captain Hammer on July 05, 2010, 09:29:14 am
I am so damn happy do find Ringworld being crossed with DF *nerdgasm*
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: de5me7 on July 05, 2010, 10:34:38 am
the ring world is unstable, the ring world is unstable
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: ILikePie on July 05, 2010, 10:41:42 am
Setting the size to 33 by 257 generates some nifty setups, but they all get rejected. Someone needs to make a tool that forces world gen no matter how bizarre the parameters are.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Untelligent on July 05, 2010, 11:33:20 am
Some of the worldgen parameters determine whether or not to reject a world. Turn all of those off and you won't get any rejects.

In theory, anyway. I still got one reject with this one. Not sure why, and I didn't have the worldgen log turned on. Ah well.


Here, use mine and tweak as necessary. The Initial/Final (biome) Square/Region Counts, about halfway down the list, and the Minimum Number of Mid/Low/High (parameter) Squares, at the bottom of the list, are most of the ones that cause rejects (In the text file, they're [REGION_COUNTS:(biome):0:0:0] and the last five). Even with normal sizes and parameters, I just leave them all off to save time, the worlds don't look particularily different than the ones with them on anyway.



Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Noble Digger on July 05, 2010, 03:23:49 pm
Mmmm, interesting. Cities built around the inside diameter of a toroidal disc which gently rotates to simulate gravity is one idea thrown around for how man will one day live in space. It's strange that we are standing on the outside of a sphere which rotates very fast and yet we only feel inward attraction due to atmospheric pressure and the earth's gravity. Without a huge gravity source like that, space stations must simulate gravity via centripetal acceleration until artificial gravity is devised.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on July 05, 2010, 04:08:31 pm
Quote from: Noble Digger on July 05, 2010, 03:23:49 pm
Mmmm, interesting. Cities built around the inside diameter of a toroidal disc which gently rotates to simulate gravity is one idea thrown around for how man will one day live in space. It's strange that we are standing on the outside of a sphere which rotates very fast and yet we only feel inward attraction due to atmospheric pressure and the earth's gravity. Without a huge gravity source like that, space stations must simulate gravity via centripetal acceleration inertia until artificial gravity is devised.

Fixed that for you. Centripetal force is what would be opposing inertia - the normal force to inertia's gravity.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 05, 2010, 07:17:34 pm
Quote from: Noble Digger on July 05, 2010, 03:23:49 pm
Mmmm, interesting. Cities built around the inside diameter of a toroidal disc which gently rotates to simulate gravity is one idea thrown around for how man will one day live in space. It's strange that we are standing on the outside of a sphere which rotates very fast and yet we only feel inward attraction due to atmospheric pressure and the earth's gravity. Without a huge gravity source like that, space stations must simulate gravity via centripetal acceleration until artificial gravity is devised.
This sounds like you copied and pasted it from an article. Is this how you talk?
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: goffrie on July 05, 2010, 08:18:04 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on July 05, 2010, 07:17:34 pm
Quote from: Noble Digger on July 05, 2010, 03:23:49 pm
Mmmm, interesting. Cities built around the inside diameter of a toroidal disc which gently rotates to simulate gravity is one idea thrown around for how man will one day live in space. It's strange that we are standing on the outside of a sphere which rotates very fast and yet we only feel inward attraction due to atmospheric pressure and the earth's gravity. Without a huge gravity source like that, space stations must simulate gravity via centripetal acceleration until artificial gravity is devised.
This sounds like you copied and pasted it from an article. Is this how you talk?
So some people speak differently. What of it?
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Noble Digger on July 05, 2010, 08:24:05 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on July 05, 2010, 07:17:34 pm
Quote from: Noble Digger on July 05, 2010, 03:23:49 pm
Mmmm, interesting. Cities built around the inside diameter of a toroidal disc which gently rotates to simulate gravity is one idea thrown around for how man will one day live in space. It's strange that we are standing on the outside of a sphere which rotates very fast and yet we only feel inward attraction due to atmospheric pressure and the earth's gravity. Without a huge gravity source like that, space stations must simulate gravity via centripetal acceleration until artificial gravity is devised.
This sounds like you copied and pasted it from an article. Is this how you talk?

Heh heh, your comment says more about you than about me. I was speaking from memory :> i.e. I didn't pull up any web-page when making that post.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 05, 2010, 08:32:27 pm
I was just curious... and a bit impressed if that was from memory. :)
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: zchris13 on July 05, 2010, 10:19:07 pm
Eh even I do that sometimes. Nothing unnatural.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 05, 2010, 10:53:25 pm
While I understand what he said, I can't hack something like that out in one go from memory. I usually end up referencing several webpages and then editing the post a few times.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Solace on July 05, 2010, 11:42:54 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on July 05, 2010, 07:17:34 pm
This sounds like you copied and pasted it from an article. Is this how you talk?
Presumably, the people who make articles talk like that. ;)
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Tuxman on July 06, 2010, 12:27:56 am
Quote from: forsaken1111 on July 04, 2010, 11:34:22 pm
I wonder what a 1 tile wide world would be like.


Migrants come from on-map. Along with sieges, and caravans.

After all, it is a small world.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 06, 2010, 02:28:26 am
Quote from: Solace on July 05, 2010, 11:42:54 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on July 05, 2010, 07:17:34 pm
This sounds like you copied and pasted it from an article. Is this how you talk?
Presumably, the people who make articles talk like that. ;)
I would assume most of them have an editing process and don't just type it up and throw it on the site.

Then again, I have seen some low quality articles.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Arkose on July 06, 2010, 02:51:14 am
Quote from: ILikePie on July 05, 2010, 10:41:42 am
Setting the size to 33 by 257 generates some nifty setups, but they all get rejected.

Speaking of which: I wonder if the world gen code can tolerate world sizes with widths and heights smaller than 33 / larger than 257. If I remember correctly the midpoint displacement algorithms require that the widths / heights have values of (power of two plus one). For smaller values, that would mean 3, 5, 9, and 17 might be valid. Possibly 1 might also work depending on the exact nature of the midpoint displacement code. Larger values like 513 may or may not work depending on whether the code stores the width/height variables in single bytes or not.

(Unfortunately I'm currently stuck with just OSX, which doesn't seem to have much in the way of memory editors, or I'd test it out myself.)
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Mishy on July 06, 2010, 06:36:45 am
In theory, this would be awesome. There could be a impassable mountain range in the middle, blocking one side of the world off from the rest. The dorfs take it upon themselves to delve into the deep and forge a pathway to connect the two lands together. There would have to be a river, spanning the entire length of the world too. IT would start at the top of the mountain range and flow down each side.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on July 06, 2010, 07:04:27 am
Quote from: Arkose on July 06, 2010, 02:51:14 am
For smaller values, that would mean 3, 5, 9, and 17 might be valid.
17 is valid. See pocket worlds.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Quantum Toast on July 06, 2010, 07:53:24 am
So if you dug too deep you'd hit outer space?
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Starver on July 06, 2010, 09:09:56 am
Long prior seeing this thread, I'd wondered about a wrap-around option to the world (relevent to Adventure mode, mostly, although in Worldgen it would mean tiling of the world-map without discontinuity.  But of course an 'Asteroids'-style wrapping, that'd produce a topologically toroid world.  (But without non-Eucilidean distortions to the plain, no real indication as to which are the major and minor radii.)  I'd also wondering, though, about worldgen being given the option of, as well as wrapping in the above sense, also in a spherical one.

For a spherical implementation, however, the 'true' surface of the world would become heavily distorted towards the poles (might be considered more detailed, on the planar world-view, for any given width[1], rather than making it unity) and the pole itself either 'just beyond' the top/bottom edges or represented by the smallest largest relevent circumpolar line's terrain detail within the respective pole's 'row'.

It would need the smoothing, pathing, area handling routines of worldgen altering to make non-grid (more vectorised, in practice) decisions as to topological smoothing/roughening (or fudge by considering extremely polar areas to be glacial/pack-ice with very little variation anyway), but when it came to embarkation, the projection of a square fortress area projection would come out increasingly trapezoidal (to the "world grid) as you reached the extremities, if not completely askew, when actually encompassing either of the poles.  On the whole, of course, and assuming that the 'fortress' (or viewable by Adventurer) area is not a significant proportion of the sphere as well.  (But then you have to consider viewable horizons, and how far the 'offing' (Meaning 1, extended to land as well (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/offing)) is, anyway.)


But, to be honest, I've already taken this sort of thing away into the realms of a browser-based game of my own (only on local machine, so far, because I no longer maintain the hosted service I would normally have used for this, for all the necessary back-end scripting needed to represent the view as the <TABLE>-based rendering (as a precursor to dynamically creating true images) that show both map and viewpoint detail).  And this isn't DF-based (though I suppose I have thought about adding 'mining for resources' to the equation) and has recursively PRNG-sourced vector-data at the core of its terrains to allow minimal storage for an arbitrary LOD (though I might need a 'diffs' storage if I ever make the landscape dynamic/alterable).  So it's not so much something I'm suggesting for DF, but am explaining as a consideration I've been making on that idea of my own.  Hopefully it's sufficiently distinct.


[1] The choice of spherical projection would indicate the whether the height gained or lost resolution/detail at the same time.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Master on July 06, 2010, 09:13:32 am
No, you just hit the material the ring world was built out of. In this case Slade.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Ephemeriis on July 06, 2010, 10:07:10 am
Quote from: Master on July 06, 2010, 09:13:32 am
No, you just hit the material the ring world was built out of. In this case Slade.
Then you just need to mod that slade into scrith...
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Danarca on July 06, 2010, 10:37:31 am
Everyone who posts in this thread needs to get out more and talk to girls.

That includes me.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Starver on July 06, 2010, 10:39:47 am
Or boys...
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Josephus on July 06, 2010, 10:41:05 am
Or men.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: zchris13 on July 06, 2010, 11:06:59 am
*flex*
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Shima on July 06, 2010, 02:09:57 pm
I gave it a spin.  Unfortunately, 17 is minimum smallest, and 257 is maximum largest when it comes to worldgen size.  For those interested, it actually genned VERY quickly.  Ringworld style might be a good way to get alot of space without taking forever to gen.

Here's what it looks like as of 1050.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on July 06, 2010, 02:38:49 pm
I like that second landmass - the one with all races and a volcano. The one after that has everything but gobbos (dwarves always come) and then there's the desert area with the humans and dwarves...

I can haz seed?
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Shima on July 06, 2010, 02:52:48 pm
It was a random seed, don't know how to find the seed for a random world.  As well, it's a modified raw (A couple of small mods from here, and some personal changes).
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Noble Digger on July 06, 2010, 03:23:45 pm
Quote from: Shima on July 06, 2010, 02:52:48 pm
It was a random seed, don't know how to find the seed for a random world.  As well, it's a modified raw (A couple of small mods from here, and some personal changes).

I believe the seed is a series of 3 4 random numbers about 7 or 8 digits long, which can be found in the world_gen_param text file that DF spits out when you export your world screenshots.

Edit: Example from Beandagger.

Created in DF v0.31.08.

Code: [Select]
[WORLD_GEN]
[TITLE:MEDIUM REGION]
[SEED:425836710]
[HISTORY_SEED:3683065096]
[NAME_SEED:3295448900]
[CREATURE_SEED:2279517012]
[DIM:129:129]
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Mush on July 06, 2010, 04:12:50 pm
Go to Legends and hit d to export the world's info to the main DF folder.

If it doesn't work (it's usually instant, or near instantanous), your dimensions are screwed and you should try again in full screen. Among the files produced, there's a .txt file with the exact numbers chosen for the world.
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Shima on July 06, 2010, 04:17:03 pm
Doesn't give me a .txt file regardless of windowed or full, but it does spit the number 10081 at the end of any of the [d]-based screens.

EDIT: Found it by going through the massive gamelog.txt.

Generating world using parameter set RINGWORLD
 Seed: 2705252788
 History Seed: 2975598402
 Name Seed: 1256282647
 Creature Seed: 714511479
Title: Re: Ringworld
Post by: Mush on July 06, 2010, 04:42:14 pm
Quote from: Shima on July 06, 2010, 04:17:03 pm
Doesn't give me a .txt file regardless of windowed or full, but it does spit the number 10081 at the end of any of the [d]-based screens.

EDIT: Found it by going through the massive gamelog.txt.

Generating world using parameter set RINGWORLD
 Seed: 2705252788
 History Seed: 2975598402
 Name Seed: 1256282647
 Creature Seed: 714511479

My mistake, it's actually "p" not "d". Sorry about that, I confuse them all the time.

Thanks for the info though.