Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Rask on July 11, 2010, 08:24:21 am

Title: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Rask on July 11, 2010, 08:24:21 am
So I wanted to know whether battle axes were still the most effective weapon and fired up arena mode.

A few dozen dead and mangled dwarfs later, it seems that warhammers reign supreme in this version. Whether iron, steel, or silver, they just whack straight through armour. Adamantine hammers still suck, though. In my tests, even full adamantine armour (helm, shield, mail shirt, breastplate, greaves, gauntlets, high boots, shield) were penetrated easily by iron warhammers. Even dwarfs with full adamantine gear and an adamantine weapon fell to the hammerdwarves if those got the first hit in. The best and (and only) defence against them seems to be a high shield skill.

There is one caveat, however: warhammers don't seem to hurt bronze colossi at all. They are killable now if swarmed by enough dwarfs with steel weapons though. Short swords worked best, followed by axes which took much longer, followed by spears which took even longer, and hammers were useless.

I wasn't able to figure out how to set up crossbows for testing in the arena, unfortunately.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Shrugging Khan on July 11, 2010, 08:45:07 am
Hammers! Excellent!
So now I will at least be able to convert my marksdwarves to something useful if they turn out to be partially non-violent semi-pacifists, again!

Have you tried *unarmoured* hammers VS other weapons?
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Rask on July 11, 2010, 08:50:51 am
Only against axes. With no shields or armour, the hammers lose badly.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: darkrider2 on July 11, 2010, 09:17:13 am
Should I do it... should I? I shouldn't your right.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: LordZorintrhox on July 11, 2010, 09:43:03 am
Makes sense; a historical war hammer actually has a relatively small head, and usually a spike on the side opposite the striking face.  Heavy steel + small surface area + velocity + leverage = severe penetrating power.  I would think it would have a higher stick-in chance because of that, but I don't know.  I assume the downside would be it is rather difficult to block effectively with a war hammer, but I don't think DF has blocking per se...just dodging, right?
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Miko19 on July 11, 2010, 09:43:50 am
Quote from: LordZorintrhox on July 11, 2010, 09:43:03 am
Makes sense; a historical war hammer actually has a relatively small head, and usually a spike on the side opposite the striking face.  Heavy steel + small surface area + velocity + leverage = severe penetrating power.  I would think it would have a higher stick-in chance because of that, but I don't know.  I assume the downside would be it is rather difficult to block effectively with a war hammer, but I don't think DF has blocking per se...just dodging, right?
The Swordmaster parries the attack!
There is also parrying.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Terisuke on July 11, 2010, 10:33:51 am
I've been running some games.  In full steel kit, Axes < Swords < Maces < Hammers. 

However, when running goblin simulations (Steel weapons, iron armor) I come up with a bit of a different scenario.  Swords won out over hammers, but it was a pretty even fight.  With the steel-only games, the winning side would have 9 or 10 dwarves intact, minus a few hands or teeth.  Iron armor and steel weapons left four swordsdwarves alive, and one looked pretty pulped. 

With blunt impact, copper hammers still did a fine job of killing full steel or adamantine armor dwarves.  Blunt basically ignores armor in this version. 

The takeaway I'm getting is that blunt is the way to go against equal-or-better-metal armor, but if you can slice through the armor blades still have the edge.  Ha ha.  This seems a pretty realistic way to operate.  In dwarf mode, you might be best sticking with blades, since you're likely going to be able to chop up your poorly armored foes - but those mace and hammer gobs will ruin your day. 

ADDITION:

Playing more, I really wish I could get crossbows to work.  With the increased mayhem of bluntness, it means I can't send out my adamantine terror squad like so many invulnerable tanks.  To avoid messy dorf death by some no-quality copper mace, I would really prefer some long distance death - alas, the only use my dorfs have for ranged is to take the bolts and try to manually insert them into targets.

ADDITION ADDITION:

HOLY SHIT, FEAR THE LASHERS.  Whips in the new version are AMAZINGLY DEADLY.  Fights with whips lasted only until the first headshot, at which point the head EXPLODED LIKE A RIPE MELON.  Adamantine helms, caps, etc, and iron whips, this is. 
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Rask on July 11, 2010, 11:04:29 am
Quote from: Terisuke on July 11, 2010, 10:33:51 am
I've been running some games.  In full steel kit, Axes < Swords < Maces < Hammers. 

This contradicts my findings.

I did another series of tests, all-steel warhammers vs all-steel battle axes.

8 hammers vs 8 axes:   8 hammers remained
8 hammers vs 16 axes:  7 hammers remained

The only explanation I can think of for your results is that you are either using the old version, or you didn't armour your dwarves completely. A full set of armour consists of:
1 helm
1 breastplate
1 mail shirt (protects upper arms, which breastplate doesn't)
1 greaves (protects legs)
1 shield
2 gauntlets (must explicitly be put there twice)
2 high boots (must explicitly be put there twice)
1 weapon of choice

If the dwarfs weren't fully armoured, that should also explain the lash deadliness.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Terisuke on July 11, 2010, 11:07:30 am
I think you're misinterpreting my < symbol.  I'm saying axes lose to swords, maces lose to hammers. 

I'm fully aware of what a full set of armor entails.  I even tried adding in caps and masks and shit in order to combat the menace of the lashers - nothing helped. 
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Rask on July 11, 2010, 11:18:13 am
Doh! Yeah, I read it the wrong way around.

Edit: tested the whips in group combat. The warhammer groups tended to win, but lost at least half of their number in the battle, with the survivors being horribly mangled. I suppose having a good medic and outnumbering the opponent will be important. Though individual dwarf skill is also a large factor. I had a grandmaster shield user/hammerdwarf in iron gear kill ten or so merely competent dwarfs with various weapons (one after the other), despite those competent dwarfs having all adamantine gear.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Shrugging Khan on July 11, 2010, 12:36:14 pm
Don't tell me crossbows STILL don't work  :'(
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: moosecow on July 11, 2010, 12:50:55 pm
Quote from: Shrugging Khan on July 11, 2010, 12:36:14 pm
Don't tell me crossbows STILL don't work  :'(

They are working for me. Stationed dwarfs in my pillbox successfully fired around 10 rounds at the incoming siege.... before being headshot by enemy gobbos :o
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Shrugging Khan on July 11, 2010, 01:59:20 pm
Can I theoretically tell my marksdwarves to carry war hammers along with their crossbows so they switch to those in melee? Same skill, more effective weapon, methinks.

Technically! Is it possible?
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: AtomicPaperclip on July 11, 2010, 04:07:57 pm
Quote from: Shrugging Khan on July 11, 2010, 01:59:20 pm
Can I theoretically tell my marksdwarves to carry war hammers along with their crossbows so they switch to those in melee? Same skill, more effective weapon, methinks.

Technically! Is it possible?
I think they might carry both of them but not be smart enough to use the correct weapons at the correct times.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Shrugging Khan on July 11, 2010, 05:13:07 pm
Meh. That's actually a fair bit disappointing  :-X
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Indricotherium on July 11, 2010, 06:50:12 pm
Quote
HOLY SHIT, FEAR THE LASHERS.

Nice. My Militia Commander is a legendary lasher who had kills even in 31.08. He routinely took ears off armoured foes and is nearly impossible to hit. This should be fun to see.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Rask on July 12, 2010, 01:37:26 am
I figured out how ammo works in the arena (really easy in hindsight), so I did some tests with crossbows. Oh dear, do bolts hurt. Wooden bolts bounce off of steel armour fine, but there's that pesky weak spot in the throat and face that's not covered. Boom, headshot! Copper and iron bolts seem to kill targets fine even through armour. Adamantine didn't help (I'm noticing a trend there), though adamantine bolts seem to work fine. I didn't manage to take down a bronze colossus with bolts, though they do damage it. Hammerdwarfs with good shield skill just block the incoming bolts and run over to bash the crossbowdwarf's head in, but they die quickly if there's more than one enemy shooting at them.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Sevrun on July 12, 2010, 02:16:16 am
So digging like a loon for Adamantine isn't quite so useful any more...  huh.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: EyeOfNundinate on July 12, 2010, 02:54:10 am
Adamant is very light, hammers rely on weight to generate blunt force.
Armor no matter how good is ineffective against blunt force.
War hammers are very pointy, and in turn are used for piercing armor.


What have you learned, adamant is a shitty material to make blunt weapons.
Blunt weapons are very effective against armored foe.
And iron war hammer is something to be reckoned with.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: techno65535 on July 12, 2010, 04:00:12 am
SLADE WARHAMMER!


That is all.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: TurkeyXIII on July 12, 2010, 04:46:42 am
I had bronze battleaxes constantly being deflected by leather.  Is that normal?
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Rask on July 12, 2010, 05:27:47 am
Another test 20 competent hammerdwarfs, all in full steel, standing in a row twenty tiles away from 20 crossbowdwarfs, all equiped with steel bolts. Fight! End result: 15 crossbowdwarfs survived, some mangled badly. Conclusion: don't charge at ranged.

In addition, ballistas seem to work again, though they aren't back to their former glory. At least not with the wooden bolts I tested.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: SmileyMan on July 12, 2010, 06:26:11 am
Quote from: Rask on July 12, 2010, 05:27:47 am
Another test 20 competent hammerdwarfs, all in full steel, standing in a row twenty tiles away from 20 crossbowdwarfs, all equiped with steel bolts. Fight! End result: 15 crossbowdwarfs survived, some mangled badly. Conclusion: don't charge at ranged.

In addition, ballistas seem to work again, though they aren't back to their former glory. At least not with the wooden bolts I tested.
That's an incorrect conclusion. :) Better to say "If you are going to charge at ranged, have overwhelming numbers."  The bowdwarves will only cut down so many before you reach them.

Militarily, losing soldiers is perfectly acceptable in the course of winning a battle.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Rask on July 12, 2010, 06:35:16 am
Do your soldiers typically outnumber siege groups? Also: tantrum spiral.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: EyeOfNundinate on July 12, 2010, 06:45:43 am
Quote from: Rask on July 12, 2010, 06:35:16 am
Do your soldiers typically outnumber siege groups? Also: tantrum spiral.
Technologically ( equipment, traps, animals ) , legendary fuck near everything.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: SmileyMan on July 12, 2010, 07:52:52 am
It's well worth noting that giving shield skill and equipping a shield enhances survivability vs crossbows dramatically, in arena mode at least.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Shrugging Khan on July 12, 2010, 08:27:56 am
Dwarf Fortress levels up +2 to Version 31.10!
Dwarf Fortress gains +20% realism!
Dwarf Fortress gains +35% weapon balance!
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Rask on July 12, 2010, 08:32:47 am
Quote from: SmileyMan on July 12, 2010, 07:52:52 am
It's well worth noting that giving shield skill and equipping a shield enhances survivability vs crossbows dramatically, in arena mode at least.


Agreed. There's a large difference in survivability between dying near instantly and making it almost to the enemy line ;)
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Creamcorn on July 12, 2010, 09:14:42 am
I have an important question. Do combatants still fly around after getting hit with hammers.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Mangled on July 12, 2010, 09:31:08 am
Quote from: Creamcorn on July 12, 2010, 09:14:42 am
I have an important question. Do combatants still fly around after getting hit with hammers.
This is all I want to know as well.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: absynthe7 on July 12, 2010, 09:36:20 am
Has anyone tested warhammers against leather armor? I seem to remember before 0.31 came out, Toady was talking about how leather should provide better protection against blunt weapons than metal armor, but that might not have made it into the final release.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Rask on July 12, 2010, 10:45:16 am
Yes. It doesn't help. It doesn't help even in combination with steel.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: TomiTapio on July 13, 2010, 11:55:28 am
Hey all. I just did some arena testing of how crap elven wooden sword and spear are.
Or how great robes and cloaks are. I have *spreadsheets*!

The wooden sword puniness got my attention in elf sword adventurer fight.
So I set up an arena, with 11 "skilled swordsman elves" using larch long swords and some fiber clothes (no shoes).

I imported log into OpenOffice spreadsheet so can separate into sortable columns at comma and '. Before import, I texteditor-replaced "through" into ",through". Also ",in the".

255 instances of cloth deflecting an attack and 65 instances of damage getting through cloth.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: jimi12 on July 13, 2010, 01:20:59 pm
I haven't seen anything about spears here. I just got an artifact platinum spear and I was hoping to see how well spears were doing in the latest version.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: cephalo on July 13, 2010, 01:48:00 pm
If I had seen this thread first I would have posted it here, but here are some test results from the arena.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61401.0

An interesting result is that copper picks are better against armor than steel axes.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Mysteriousbluepuppet on July 13, 2010, 01:49:22 pm
I would also like to know if pick are a viable weapons in this version. My milliatia commander apparently likes them, and so i would like to know if they are at least mildly effective or should I swtch him to something else ?
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Mysteriousbluepuppet on July 13, 2010, 01:50:09 pm
Quote from: cephalo on July 13, 2010, 01:48:00 pm
If I had seen this thread first I would have posted it here, but here are some test results from the arena.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61401.0

An interesting result is that copper picks are better against armor than steel axes.

Should have checked before posting then ;) I'll take that as a vote for the picks
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: jimi12 on July 13, 2010, 06:56:51 pm
Fists are WAY too powerful in the new version. I had a goblin punch through my full steel armor dwarf and jammed his rib through his lung. The goblin was stripped of all weapons and my dwarf had a spear.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: TomiTapio on July 13, 2010, 07:26:27 pm
I just ran four more arena-into-spreadsheet tests for you to read and ponder.

(I imported log into OpenOffice spreadsheet so can separate into sortable columns at comma and '. Before import, I texteditor-replaced "through" into ",through". Also ",in the".)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Spectre on July 13, 2010, 09:28:36 pm
It would be quite useful to understand the usage of all of the weapons in the middleages.
I just read all articles on the weapons on wikipedia, but they are a bit vague on the effectivness against each other/armor.

What I got was:

Close quarter combat: maces, hammers, short swords and axes.
Maces are used against "light" metal armor like chainmail. The brute force practicaly allows armor to be ignored to an extent as it just transfers the velocity of the attack. That makes maces on of the most common weapons in the middle-age after heavy metal armor was introduced. Also maces are a slight more effectiv against unarmored flesh then the hammer. One major advantage of the mace as opposed to the axe or hammer is that it doesnt matter with which side you hit. An axe has only one blade as does a hammer only has one flat side. So a mace is more easy to controle in close combat, thus needing lesser skill.
Hammers can develop more brute force than maces, but needs more skill. They were developed as the armor got even more resistant. A hammer practicaly allows to smash in heads even if there is a (good) helmet in the way. So the tactic would be to doge a hammer and avoid beeing hit (or block) since I would imagine them slower and more difficult to handle then a mace. That would grant lightly armored opponens an advantage.

Since we dont have longswords: Short swords are just cutting weapons most efficient against un- or only slightly armored opponents (leather armor). They rely on dealing mortal injuries like open arteries. If you get through to your oponent, you can kill them fastest with a sword as you can just slash away on him and he has a good chance of dieing if he lets himself getting hit.
Short swords should be used in combination with a shield, as they are close quarter weapons, like the mace, the axe and some hammers. And you can use a shield quicker than you are able to dodge if you are armored. And if you are not armored, a shield doesnt hurt either.

The battle-axe is basicaly a sword and a mace combined. You still have the huge velocity of the mace (you can make the head as heavy as you want after all) while simmultaniously having a shape blade that might even cut through (light) metal armor and deal deadly slashes like the sword.
Interestingly, after the introducion of the sword, the warriors of the middle-age dumped them in favor of the sword, and later maces to conter the newly invented metal armor.
So I would guess they where kind of hard to controle in battle and not as effective against armor as a mace.

Medium quarter combat: Halberts, pikes and spears.
Halberts and pikes rely on their lenght. So medium quarter combat is a plus, close quarter combat is a minus. Also pikes are longer (by far) than Halberts.
Spears are just shorter pikes, comparable in lenght to a halbert.
Halberts are weaker than pikes, but have an axe-like blade at the ending. They are somewhat a bastadisation of an axe and a pike, beeing not as great as the specific weapon in its specialised field but not as bad outside of it either.
Pikes, spears and halberts should not be used in combination with a shield, they hinder you and since the trick is not to let the enemy near you, you hopfully wont need it (Real live soldiers had some side arm weapon like a sword, mace or dagger in case the enemy got too close, and maybe a buckler).
Pikes and halberts were the most commonly used weapon in large infantery companys. But you need disciplin and the ability to hold formation to be realy supperior (something dwarves do not have). Non the less, you should still be careful in a one-on-one combat with a skilled pike wielding enemy.
I guess pikes are not as effectiv agains heavy armor as a halbert, and both are not as effectiv as a mace. But if you dont let them near you, you can just stab them down. There is some placed bound to let the weapon through (joints, face).

Large quarter combat: Crossbows.
I will do crossbows tommorow if no one else does it. But I remember that they where invented quite late, and that they could punch a hole through armor quite easily. And they were used in large squats since you could used poorly trained soldiers. One would hit the enemy and the rest didnt matter. Crossbows where quite easy to make, too (simmilar to pikes or spears btw).
So they were looked down on by figures like the pope. It was considered 'unfair' that a poorly trained crossbowman could kill a knight with a lifetime of training.
Bows and crossbows would also be the way to go against pikes, spears or halberts, since those are hard to get close to if you know how to use 'em, thus negating all efforts made with the 'close quarter weapons'
Well what do you say. I wrote a section about crossbows nevertheless. So this section gets a headline too.


Additionaly:
Picks.
Quote from: cephalo on July 13, 2010, 02:48:14 pm
If you think about mining picks, it's pretty much impossible to design a hand held simple tool that can put more force behind a small contact area. Its designed to bust rocks, so it's easy to imagine that no armor could be made that would slow it down in any way. You can't make a more powerful weapon than a mining pick.

The issue, and this is one that is not modeled in DF at all I don't think, is that mining picks are so heavy and unwealdy that you couldn't possibly defend yourself while holding one. When you are up against a rock wall that's not fighting back, all you care about is power. When you're up against an armed enemy, you need both a speedy attack that is difficult to evade and also the mobility to counter enemy attacks.

If you tried to hit some random anyone off the street with a mining pick, even the clumsiest most untrained individual would probably be able to side step it.

It seems to me that the game is trying to model only the force of the weapon, which if you do that right, would make it easily the most powerful.

Quote from: Simmura McCrea on July 13, 2010, 03:48:36 pm
Warhammer. Like a pick, but smaller. (Removed the link to wikipedia)
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: NRN_R_Sumo1 on July 13, 2010, 11:25:57 pm
Quote from: Spectre on July 13, 2010, 09:28:36 pm
textwall


A battle axe is nothing like a sword/mace.. and a war hammer is nothing like you seem to think, you are thinking of a warhammer like a sledge hammer.
If anything the unweildyness of a battleaxe would make them much closer to the "mini sledge" you are picturing.

Halberds are not weaker than pikes by any means, a halberd is a terrifying weapon.. while a pike is nothing more than a moveable barbed wire fence when the soldiers are in formation, and their main use was against cavalry.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The back end of the halberd can be used to grab a shoulder, or neck, or limb, while puncturing the flesh of a lightly armored opponent, while you might rely on thrusts to deal with heavier armored foes, and swings of the large blade to keep them at bay.

Differant weapons have been developed for differant purposes.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Lightning4 on July 14, 2010, 01:01:46 am
For all the strength of blunt against most other foes, it is BRUTALLY ineffective against a bronze colossus (and most likely most other types of inorganic fun).

I geared up six fully grandmaster dwarves with adamantine armor and slade warhammers.
THEY LOST.

It would appear that blunt is rather inefficient at damaging a creature of solid metal, who would have thought. :P
It did lose its hands though, so it would appear the cumulative damage is taking effect, it's just doing so really, really slowly.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Rask on July 14, 2010, 01:44:32 am
As a side note, copper picks seem ineffective against bronze colossi. Steel ones work fine.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Spectre on July 14, 2010, 06:42:26 am
Quote from: NRN_R_Sumo1 on July 13, 2010, 11:25:57 pm
Quote from: Spectre on July 13, 2010, 09:28:36 pm
textwall


A battle axe is nothing like a sword/mace.. and a war hammer is nothing like you seem to think, you are thinking of a warhammer like a sledge hammer.
If anything the unweildyness of a battleaxe would make them much closer to the "mini sledge" you are picturing.

Halberds are not weaker than pikes by any means, a halberd is a terrifying weapon.. while a pike is nothing more than a moveable barbed wire fence when the soldiers are in formation, and their main use was against cavalry.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The back end of the halberd can be used to grab a shoulder, or neck, or limb, while puncturing the flesh of a lightly armored opponent, while you might rely on thrusts to deal with heavier armored foes, and swings of the large blade to keep them at bay.

Differant weapons have been developed for differant purposes.

The articles in wikipedia are illustrated very sufficient, thank you. Please remember that I was partly picturing how those weapons could/should be in DF. Balance is a concern here.
I talked about warhammers beeing hard to handle in comparison to a mace. I even elaborated why.
Quote from: Spectre on July 13, 2010, 09:28:36 pm
One major advantage of the mace as opposed to the axe or hammer is that it doesnt matter with which side you hit. An axe has only one blade as does a hammer only has one flat side. So a mace is more easy to controle in close combat, thus needing lesser skill.
Also: If the warhammer has more velocity then a mace, it is bound to have a heavier head.

The statment of halberts beeing weaker than pikes should not be taken out of context.
Quote from: Spectre on July 13, 2010, 09:28:36 pm
Halberts are weaker than pikes, but have an axe-like blade at the ending. They are somewhat a bastadisation of an axe and a pike, beeing not as great as the specific weapon in its specialised field but not as bad outside of it either.
Please remember, I am still talking about how to use those weapons in DF.

Also: There is at the moment only a spear as a weapon in DF. But I thought it would give a better understanding to illustrate the two most commonly used forms of 'spear weapons'. Maybe the will get added sometime?

I didn't talk about the spike on a halbert or on a warhammer, because they aren't there in DF. And if they were, it would not affect the general specialisation of the weapon. Only how Toady would have to calculate damage (give the warhammer a 25% chance for piercing damge or whatnot).

It is important to understand the thing if you want to moddle it into a game. That was all.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: TomiTapio on July 14, 2010, 08:46:32 am
Now I tested whips and basic copper swords vs. steel gear. 20-dorf free-for-alls. Oh the dwarfenity!
I hope Toady reads this.

Edit: copper battle axe too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Spectre on July 14, 2010, 12:53:27 pm
I realy hope toady reads this. It seems there is still much work to be done with weapons
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Mysteriousbluepuppet on July 14, 2010, 11:56:32 pm
I can attest that whips are extremly deadly as of now. I just add my 6 hammerdwarf squad whipped out (i'm sorry for that one) by a single lasher during an ambush. He kiled them fast enough that none of them were able to land a hit.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: elfhater on July 15, 2010, 02:22:55 pm
So then would you say that... when a problem comes along...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Dorf3000 on July 15, 2010, 03:50:18 pm
Quote from: elfhater on July 15, 2010, 02:22:55 pm
So then would you say that... when a problem comes along...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Groan...  I hope that's the lash pun in this thread.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Terisuke on July 15, 2010, 07:13:41 pm
Quote from: Dorf3000 on July 15, 2010, 03:50:18 pm
Quote from: elfhater on July 15, 2010, 02:22:55 pm
So then would you say that... when a problem comes along...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Groan...  I hope that's the lash pun in this thread.
I'm sure someone will whip out another one.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Mysteriousbluepuppet on July 15, 2010, 08:35:35 pm
Quote from: Terisuke on July 15, 2010, 07:13:41 pm
Quote from: Dorf3000 on July 15, 2010, 03:50:18 pm
Quote from: elfhater on July 15, 2010, 02:22:55 pm
So then would you say that... when a problem comes along...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Groan...  I hope that's the lash pun in this thread.
I'm sure someone will whip out another one.

We'd better whip the thread arround , it's getting ridiculous.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Alkyon on July 15, 2010, 08:39:08 pm
The problem is we've all gotten off topic due to puns, and we're no longer axeing questions about the game mechanics themselves.

Anyways, on topic, are Spears more or less the same?  I assume that piercing is the same as slashing in that you want something that holds an edge?

Also, I've heard stuff about people killing Bronze Collosi, did I miss something and Toady fixed inorganic beings being nigh-indestructible, short of a lucky headshot, obsidian casting, or a kinetic strike from a cave-in?
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Mysteriousbluepuppet on July 15, 2010, 08:41:46 pm
Quote from: Alkyon on July 15, 2010, 08:39:08 pm
The problem is we've all gotten off topic due to puns, and we're no longer axeing questions about the game mechanics themselves.

Really, it's the scrouge of this thread.

Puns appart i'm trying to mod the whip to make them less of an instakill. What parameter should i work on ? I'll admit i don't know much on the subject
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Mysteriousbluepuppet on July 15, 2010, 08:44:51 pm
Quote from: Mysteriousbluepuppet on July 15, 2010, 08:41:46 pm
Quote from: Alkyon on July 15, 2010, 08:39:08 pm
The problem is we've all gotten off topic due to puns, and we're no longer axeing questions about the game mechanics themselves.
Really, it's the scourge of this thread.

Puns appart i'm trying to mod the whip to make them less of an instakill. What parameter should i work on ? I'll admit i don't know much on the subject
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Mysteriousbluepuppet on July 15, 2010, 08:47:24 pm
Quote from: Alkyon on July 15, 2010, 08:39:08 pm
Also, I've heard stuff about people killing Bronze Collosi, did I miss something and Toady fixed inorganic beings being nigh-indestructible, short of a lucky headshot, obsidian casting, or a kinetic strike from a cave-in?

They arent' supposed to be invincible anymore. You can beat them but be prepared to lose a lot of dorfs
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Quadricwan on July 15, 2010, 08:57:36 pm
Has anybody looked into whether or not there is any difference now between the damage traps do?  If blunt is the new king, are blad traps still the #1 choice?
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Teach on July 15, 2010, 09:37:40 pm
Spectre is wrong.  In adventure mode at least I've gotten my hammerman to gore some elves with the spike on the WH.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Lord Shonus on July 16, 2010, 02:25:02 am
Quote from: Mysteriousbluepuppet on July 15, 2010, 08:47:24 pm
Quote from: Alkyon on July 15, 2010, 08:39:08 pm
Also, I've heard stuff about people killing Bronze Collosi, did I miss something and Toady fixed inorganic beings being nigh-indestructible, short of a lucky headshot, obsidian casting, or a kinetic strike from a cave-in?

They arent' supposed to be invincible anymore. You can beat them but be prepared to lose a lot of dorfs

Don't double (or in this case triple) post. Anything you want to add can be done in an edit.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Twobeard on July 16, 2010, 02:36:36 am
I still stand by axes as a weapon. Seeing the new results with warhammers i might bust a few out now, but i love my axes. Also picks are bloody deadly. Somewhere between an axe and a spear they do brutal amounts of damage in every incarnation of .31 so far that ive seen. Ive seen creatures have limbs HACKED off with PICKS. I think its the dwarfiest weapon out. The true dwarves weapon. Miners friend.
Hells yeah.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: atomicthumbs on July 16, 2010, 04:03:00 am
I want my old-style warhammers that slam goblins into trees 40 feet away. :(
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: TomiTapio on July 16, 2010, 08:40:05 am
("The format is ATTACK:EDGE/BLUNT:contact area:penetration size:verb2nd:verb3rd:noun:velocity multiplier
Penetration size currently only matters for edged attacks.")

So vanilla Whip has [ATTACK:BLUNT:1:10:lash:lashes:NO_SUB:5000].
laser-like tiny contact area? One could try setting the 1 to 6.

hammer [ATTACK:BLUNT:10:200:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]
mace [ATTACK:BLUNT:20:200:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]
flail [ATTACK:BLUNT:200:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2500]
short sword slap [ATTACK:BLUNT:20000:4000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]

Scourge has [ATTACK:EDGE:10:50:lash:lashes:NO_SUB:2000], it's like
spear's [ATTACK:EDGE:20:10000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]. But sharper!
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: MaDeR Levap on July 16, 2010, 03:16:13 pm
Quote from: TomiTapio on July 16, 2010, 08:40:05 am
laser-like tiny contact area? One could try setting the 1 to 6.
Seems like DF-vanilia lashes are made from thin carbon nanotubes! No wonder they are so deadly - they cut through anything.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Grendus on July 16, 2010, 09:30:27 pm
Sounds like the game physics is having trouble with flexible weapons. If you're hit by a whip and a warhammer that both weigh the same amount, guess which will hurt more? There's a reason that, as far as I know, whips were never actually used in combat and if they were, it wasn't widespread. A whip's flexibility, while it makes it hard to block and capable of striking around defenses, also makes it very hard to strike without losing a lot of the force.

I think the easiest way to neuter them right now is to up the size of the strike zone, maybe to simulate a flat strike instead of a precise one. Honestly, though, I don't really understand why Toady added them to the game in the first place, they seem out of place in the 14th century european fantasy he focuses on as the basis of the game.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: SmileyMan on July 17, 2010, 09:08:51 am
Quote from: Grendus on July 16, 2010, 09:30:27 pm
...whips were never actually used in combat and if they were, it wasn't widespread
Not for 14th century Europe, no.

However, predecessors of the nasty South African sjambok are recorded in India and Indonesia in the 17th century and surely existed before then.  Then there's the very dangerous buntot pagi of the Philippines, which is made from the tail of a stingray and retains the venom - the longer it is (and therefore the larger and more dangerous the ray it came from) the more prized it is - the Filipino Royal Collection has a six-footer, typical combat-ready ones are 4.5 feet.  I'd love to see one of these modded into the game, with the venom effects.

And of course, the good ol' U S of A invented the blacksnake, which is a normal bullwhip, but with a handle that is a disguised blackjack.  Doesn't use the same skillset of course.

One thing on whip combat - almost everywhere where combat whips have been used, the wielder has a knife in the other hand to deal with an opponent who breaches the striking zone.  Until more realistic hand-to-hand striking zones are modelled, and until multi-wielding is in, simulating whip combat will be quite unrealistic anyway.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Nilik on July 17, 2010, 09:43:49 am
Quote from: Grendus on July 16, 2010, 09:30:27 pm
Sounds like the game physics is having trouble with flexible weapons. If you're hit by a whip and a warhammer that both weigh the same amount, guess which will hurt more? There's a reason that, as far as I know, whips were never actually used in combat and if they were, it wasn't widespread. A whip's flexibility, while it makes it hard to block and capable of striking around defenses, also makes it very hard to strike without losing a lot of the force.

Sounds like being hit by a whip in the current version is more like being hit by a hammer-on-a-rope.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Shrugging Khan on July 17, 2010, 09:45:57 am
Which sounds relatively scary, actually. Imagine getting hit by a hammer toss.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Hamster Man on July 17, 2010, 12:10:15 pm
Quote from: TomiTapio on July 16, 2010, 08:40:05 am
So vanilla Whip has [ATTACK:BLUNT:1:10:lash:lashes:NO_SUB:5000].
laser-like tiny contact area? One could try setting the 1 to 6.

Dwarves with lasers. This make me wonder what would happen if I changed crossbow bolts a little...
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: G-Flex on July 17, 2010, 12:17:18 pm
Quote from: Nilik on July 17, 2010, 09:43:49 am
Sounds like being hit by a whip in the current version is more like being hit by a hammer-on-a-rope.

Not quite, because it isn't ropelike at all. It's more like being hit by a really tiny, really fast hammer with miniscule contact area.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: MaDeR Levap on July 17, 2010, 12:24:23 pm
Quote from: Hamster Man on July 17, 2010, 12:10:15 pm
Dwarves with lasers. This make me wonder what would happen if I changed crossbow bolts a little...
Like this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SchizoTech)?
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Hamster Man on July 18, 2010, 08:19:05 am
Close, but not quite! Since my lahzars wouldn't help accuracy at all.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: thvaz on July 18, 2010, 08:59:55 am
I am more happy with the combat now, but there are still work to do to balance the weapons and materials.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: Josephus on July 18, 2010, 09:10:36 am
Toady apparently has rebalanced combat for the next release, on the 22nd or the 23rd.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: SeanTucker on August 05, 2010, 06:14:52 pm
Whips being overpowered makes me think that Toady's a Castlevania fan.
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: TomiTapio on August 06, 2010, 08:31:30 am
Quote from: Mysteriousbluepuppet on July 15, 2010, 08:44:51 pm
Puns appart i'm trying to mod the whip to make them less of an instakill. What parameter should i work on ? I'll admit i don't know much on the subject

The whip is super, because it's blunt force in a super small area:

Quote from: TomiTapio on July 16, 2010, 08:40:05 am
("The format is ATTACK:EDGE/BLUNT:contact area:penetration size:verb2nd:verb3rd:noun:velocity multiplier
Penetration size currently only matters for edged attacks.")

So vanilla Whip has [ATTACK:BLUNT:1:10:lash:lashes:NO_SUB:5000].
laser-like tiny contact area? One could try setting the 1 to 6.

hammer [ATTACK:BLUNT:10:200:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]
mace [ATTACK:BLUNT:20:200:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]
flail [ATTACK:BLUNT:200:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2500]
short sword slap [ATTACK:BLUNT:20000:4000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]

Scourge has [ATTACK:EDGE:10:50:lash:lashes:NO_SUB:2000], it's like
spear's [ATTACK:EDGE:20:10000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]. But sharper!
Title: Re: 31.10 weapons
Post by: (name here) on August 06, 2010, 09:24:37 am
A swift test indicates that adamantium short swords kick iron armor's ass. Also, my adamantium armor is resistant to war hammers.