Post by: Eviltane01 on July 22, 2010, 10:24:03 am
I just cant seem to get a read on this communities gender bias (if it has one). Do girls love their Dwarfs as much as the guys (well so far i know i do love em and i'm a dude)?
Post by: Hyndis on July 22, 2010, 10:50:11 am
In other breaking news, water is wet and the sky is blue. :o
Post by: devek on July 22, 2010, 10:52:21 am
Post by: Eviltane01 on July 22, 2010, 10:57:05 am
Post by: Deteramot on July 22, 2010, 11:25:12 am
Or at least, mostly males have come in here and voted.
I'll be honest, I've yet to meet a female gamer irl. I know they exist, elusive though they are, but I've never met one.
Post by: Dakk on July 22, 2010, 11:33:17 am
But aye, there's a few girls here and there on bay12, they're just cleverly disguised as northen european males who like axes as beards. 85% of all bay12ers are heterosexual males, me thinks.
EDIT: Holy crap typos.
Post by: expwnent on July 22, 2010, 11:41:57 am
northen european males who like axes as beards
Axe beards? As in beards composed of axes?
Post by: Dakk on July 22, 2010, 12:00:12 pm
Post by: ILikePie on July 22, 2010, 12:11:28 pm
Post by: Lawec on July 22, 2010, 02:35:22 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 22, 2010, 03:05:45 pm
To give an example of a game that does attract probably more girls than guys, I'm pretty sure Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates has a bias towards female gamers, or at least a fairly balanced one. It's a game that is generally cooperative in nature, fairly mechanics light, and allows one to customize characters pretty thoroughly while building up assets and socializing. (The Sims, also, has a massive female fanbase, and is a game largely about building and decorating houses, and making pretend social lives.)
Dwarf Fortress, on the other hand, is extremely mechanics-heavy, involves learning about the intracacies of geology or metallurgy or other dry, technical subjects, has a very large focus upon a very non-visceral, casual form of violence, has a graphical ASCII interface that seems there just to appeal to gamers who are rabidly old-school (which harkens back to the times when there were no girls playing), and where the only socializing is on these boards, which have an obvious masculine confrontational bent to it.
So yes, I would expect a serious gender bias, and for most female forumgoers to not particularly want to hop out from behind the cloak of anonymity to identify themselves.
Post by: Eviltane01 on July 22, 2010, 03:45:56 pm
I figured that Dwarf fortress is in some ways a lot like the sims. We govern the lives of individual characters not in a direct way as in the standard RTS but more in a managerial role. And as some us have proven even men can make their "dwarf" caves quite pretty.To me the 2 games seem very alike on that front.
I concede to you the points on the social and technical aspects though one might also argue that the technical barriers of the game should present the same difficulties to men and to women. As the counter to that of course one might argue that men have traditionally held more roles in the IT sector and thereby more of us have at least a rough background understanding of whats going on.
The one point I do not really agree on is that you said :
So yes, I would expect a serious gender bias, and for most female forumgoers to not particularly want to hop out from behind the cloak of anonymity to identify themselves.
These forums aren't exactly leet speaking TF2 forums filled with 13 and 14 year olds taking their first steps into the online world and trying to measure out each others e-peens.
These forums here strike me as being used by a very mature crowd although it can become silly sometimes. So I don't think that even if a women was to identify herself she would face any sort of harrassment from testosterone rich teens which is honestly where the vast majority of the "OMG girls" comes from. Even if she did I'm very confident that a large part of the forums user base would arrange for a meeting between an Atom smasher and the perpetrator.
There are quite a few gaming communities where women show them self's without any sort of attention being brought to it.
Take the WoW forums for example in those forums women have very little issues with proclaiming who and what they are. Its just simple everyday stuff there. From what I know of the EVE community it is much the same there.
I did provision for the case of a of a female forum goer worrying about anonymity by writing in the Poll topic itself that votes are anonymous.
Anyway in the end the ratio is becoming quite obvious. For the sake of a discussion , what could be done to make the game more female friendly. Would the inclusion of say a Social networking style "friends chat" or chat rooms with an easy way to transfer in game images solve the matter to a large extend. Or would we need a serious graphical overhaul.
Post by: Greiger on July 22, 2010, 03:49:19 pm
...and where the only socializing is on these boards, which have an obvious masculine confrontational bent to it.
That's not true! You are lying! I'm going to kick yer ass! *flex*Urrgh... MUSCLES!
...no I am not serious. Don't take me seriously.
Post by: breadbocks on July 22, 2010, 04:29:56 pm
Post by: Vattic on July 22, 2010, 04:42:59 pm
On the topic of girl gamers, I gamed with a group at college and I've known plenty of others. The main group I know prefer their JRPGs, plenty of turn based stuff. I used to play a lot of Mario Kart, Tetris and Bomberman, on the DS, with another group of gamers one of whom was female. So they do exist, it seems to be more and more common these days.
Post by: HatfieldCW on July 22, 2010, 04:55:13 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 22, 2010, 05:03:41 pm
Kohaku with the mention of the Sims you actually brought up one of the reasons why I was interested in finding out what the actual female / male ratio is though I had a suspicion that it would be testosterone heavy.
I figured that Dwarf fortress is in some ways a lot like the sims. We govern the lives of individual characters not in a direct way as in the standard RTS but more in a managerial role. And as some us have proven even men can make their "dwarf" caves quite pretty.To me the 2 games seem very alike on that front.
Except the games aren't very similar if you look at the appeals of what you actually do in to a house in the two games. In The Sims, you can construct the house from the foundation up, pick out wallpaper and carpets, furnish it, including with custom mod furniture, of which there is a bajillion on the Internet, and fashion design your little Sims house as much as you see fit. It is, pretty much, the entire point of the game.
In DF, there really isn't much to do - you dig out a few tiles of room, throw a bed, maybe a container and a dresser down, and call it a day. If you get all fancy, and do an engraving, it will probably be of someone who lived 100 years ago being eaten by an ettin. Or of dogs screaming while they get turned into doggy shnitzel. Housing is pretty much just someting that keeps dwarves from being angry that they sleep in mud.
I concede to you the points on the social and technical aspects though one might also argue that the technical barriers of the game should present the same difficulties to men and to women. As the counter to that of course one might argue that men have traditionally held more roles in the IT sector and thereby more of us have at least a rough background understanding of whats going on.
It's just as easy for a woman to learn geology or what have you as it is for men, but the difference is in the willingness to learn. It's not about being hard, but about how someone feels about themselves and how they conform to their own gender stereotypes. If you got some kindergardeners who were on a field trip to a museum, and tried to start selling them the wonders of geology, and started with melting things with magma or making steel to create serrated buzzsaw traps to cut goblins to bits... would you expect more of the boys or the girls to be interested in your lecture?
The one point I do not really agree on is that you said :So yes, I would expect a serious gender bias, and for most female forumgoers to not particularly want to hop out from behind the cloak of anonymity to identify themselves.
These forums aren't exactly leet speaking TF2 forums filled with 13 and 14 year olds taking their first steps into the online world and trying to measure out each others e-peens.
These forums here strike me as being used by a very mature crowd although it can become silly sometimes. So I don't think that even if a women was to identify herself she would face any sort of harrassment from testosterone rich teens which is honestly where the vast majority of the "OMG girls" comes from. Even if she did I'm very confident that a large part of the forums user base would arrange for a meeting between an Atom smasher and the perpetrator.
Maybe I should compare this place to another male-dominated Internet site, then: Wikipedia. Wikipedia, because of its confrontational, prove-it-in-writing approach, has almost completely driven out anyone but the scientifically inclined relatively young male nerd demographic. Women do not like an environment where every statement they make can be challenged, and must be backed up in triplicate. E-peens or not, that's the environment we have, where you have to show your work.
There are quite a few gaming communities where women show them self's without any sort of attention being brought to it.
Take the WoW forums for example in those forums women have very little issues with proclaiming who and what they are. Its just simple everyday stuff there. From what I know of the EVE community it is much the same there.
And yet, those games are social games. Even if they are competitive, they are designed to heavily encourage team play. I remember reading an article in either Time or Newsweek recently about the difference between whether boys or girls consider their sports activities to be about striving to excell, or to be about trying to dominate the other side. Males, regardless of which they were trying to do, felt fairly good about themselves, but females were significantly more likely to feel depressed and isolated for trying to dominate others. The attempt to act outside the gender role isolates girls from their peers, and is discouraged, rather than rewarded as a male would have been. Maybe it's not fair, but that's how it works.
Anyway in the end the ratio is becoming quite obvious. For the sake of a discussion , what could be done to make the game more female friendly. Would the inclusion of say a Social networking style "friends chat" or chat rooms with an easy way to transfer in game images solve the matter to a large extend. Or would we need a serious graphical overhaul.
It would take a conscious effort to change the focus of the game, honestly. I've been saying pretty often that this game can be divided into two major focuses: military and architecture/engineering. Females are not attracted to the kind of military we are dealing with, which is largely a sober analysis of the most efficient ways to seperate goblins and elves and kittens from their limbs in such a thoroughly detached way that litterally all you see is an "E" and a "2" fly apart, with some background colors turning red. The Architechture is a potential draw, but only if you were to have more ability to actually see and interact with and customize what you are making.
What would really help, however, is making another draw for the game, which is what I was trying to do in this suggestion, by making social classes and demands for better quality of life (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61620.0) a part of the game. Like I said before, currently, there is no reason to give dwarves much more than a bed, food, booze, some statues in the dining room, and keep them from direct danger. The environment of the dwarves is fairly sterile and bleak. Giving dwarves more personality, some politics, and most of all, the reason to build all those fireplaces and carpets and tapestries and allow players to design high-class neighborhoods with parks and recreation would give a focus on society-building that would be far more attractive than simple deathtrap engineering or sending champions out to effortlessly slaughter 90 goblins in a race to see who can make the longest kill list.
Post by: Kagus on July 22, 2010, 05:18:13 pm
'Nichee' had a mic, and had one of those voices where you can't quite figure out the gender of the person talking. I didn't pay much attention to it until guy #1 asked if Nichee was a girl. After a little back and forth of "maaaayyybeeee...", Nichee said she was indeed a girl.
The reactions were quite interesting. I didn't believe her, Guy #1 believed her and started talking about the relationship between girls and gaming, and Guy #2 asked her for a blowjob.
Later, Nichee revealed that she had gotten a little bit tipsy before playing. Guy #1 started talking about the relationship between girls and drinking, Guy #2 asked her for a blowjob again, and I did some white knighting by saying that Guy #2's actions should be excused because he had a lobotomy for lunch.
Then the C4 got caught in a tornado and I jumped off a roof.
I can't possibly imagine why gamer girls would want to hide their identities... Oh, and while I am a male, I'm going to put myself down as a goblin. Long story.
Post by: strongrudder on July 22, 2010, 05:19:56 pm
My favorite aspect has to be the military one, where you defend your little hole in the ground from hostile invaders. The wound system and the one-step button make this particularly exciting as battles unfold. And then you can root for your favorite dwarves to surmount impossible odds and glory in your champions' kill count (and engravings of their feats).
Some events happen thanks to coincidence (happy or tragic), and for some, it's a race against time as you beg that little smiley face to cross the screen just a little faster. You can try to build a fort in the worst of places, get picky nobles to assassinate themselves, build massive tombs for the greatest heroes of your fortress, and Legends mode can tell some rad stories that you don't get to see for yourself. Same thing goes for the threads people make about community fortresses - I like seeing how things play out in general, along with the stupid/awesome things individual dwarves get caught doing.
The difficulty of learning the mechanics of the game (and learning to interpret what you're seeing onscreen) is just a challenge that makes it more fun in the end, I think.
And for the record, I'm female. X)
EDIT:
The reactions were quite interesting. I didn't believe her, Guy #1 believed her and started talking about the relationship between girls and gaming, and Guy #2 asked her for a blowjob.
Guy #2 is exactly why I tend not to use my mic in TF2, unless it's a server where they're used to seeing me.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 22, 2010, 05:21:35 pm
I was playing a match of Zombie Master a few days ago. There were only about three people on the server (including me), and then someone else joined.
'Nichee' had a mic, and had one of those voices where you can't quite figure out the gender of the person talking. I didn't pay much attention to it until guy #1 asked if Nichee was a girl. After a little back and forth of "maaaayyybeeee...", Nichee said she was indeed a girl.
The reactions were quite interesting. I didn't believe her, Guy #1 believed her and started talking about the relationship between girls and gaming, and Guy #2 asked her for a blowjob.
Later, Nichee revealed that she had gotten a little bit tipsy before playing. Guy #1 started talking about the relationship between girls and drinking, Guy #2 asked her for a blowjob again, and I did some white knighting by saying that Guy #2's actions should be excused because he had a lobotomy for lunch.
Then the C4 got caught in a tornado and I jumped off a roof.
I can't possibly imagine why gamer girls would want to hide their identities... Oh, and while I am a male, I'm going to put myself down as a goblin. Long story.
I'm hoping that was sarcasm, but...
You ask why girls might not want to identify themselves right after telling a story about where, immediately after a girl identified herself as a girl, one of the guys started repeatedly asking her for a blowjob... consider that for a while.
Post by: Kagus on July 22, 2010, 05:29:06 pm
And while Guy #2 was indeed a brain damaged little prat, also consider the fact that Guy #1 was more interested in discussing the secrets of womanhood with her than actually playing the game (although admittedly, "playing" at that point had basically just devolved into tornado surfing and placing zombies in the skybox).
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 22, 2010, 05:31:26 pm
I'm trying to work out just what it is about Dwarf Fortress that attracts me to it. I think, in the end, it's gotta be the potential for story.
My favorite aspect has to be the military one, where you defend your little hole in the ground from hostile invaders. The wound system and the one-step button make this particularly exciting as battles unfold. And then you can root for your favorite dwarves to surmount impossible odds and glory in your champions' kill count (and engravings of their feats).
Some events happen thanks to coincidence (happy or tragic), and for some, it's a race against time as you beg that little smiley face to cross the screen just a little faster. You can try to build a fort in the worst of places, get picky nobles to assassinate themselves, build massive tombs for the greatest heroes of your fortress, and Legends mode can tell some rad stories that you don't get to see for yourself. Same thing goes for the threads people make about community fortresses - I like seeing how things play out in general, along with the stupid/awesome thing individual dwarves get caught doing.
I think it would be useful to compare this to the thread called something like "I found out I actually hated my dwarves when..." where people talked about doing things like seeing dwarves as so utterly impersonal and interchangable that they make naming bridges to kill off most of their immigrants just so that the survivors are the ones that have something memorable about them.
While it might sound odd to say, I have some tastes in gaming that tend to more traditionally be lures for the female gamer, one of which is definitely the ability to identify with the units I'm pushing around, and feeling like I'm at least not an outright hostile deity, if not a benevolent one. Plus, the whole ability to actually take the time to make your sim-city/ancient chinese town/whatever a beautiful and enriching place to live, rather than a blasted Hellscape that is perpetually decorated in blood and vomit kind of appeals to me, too. Which is part of why I made that suggestion for making dwarves more individualistic, and actually be more of the sort of thing that you could imagine stories for.
Post by: The Frivolous Linguist on July 22, 2010, 06:04:56 pm
Post by: Eviltane01 on July 22, 2010, 07:40:30 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Strongrudder
What do you think is the barrier , if there is one ,that keeps women from this game?
Is it that their simply not exposed to it as much? Do you think its social pressures? Would you agree with Kohagu on any points?
He he ill try to reply 1 post at a time so i don't throw up a wall.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So are you saying that ladies should just let it slide, water of a ducks back?
If the answer is no. Then why should they just let it go? Most guys would start trash talking back.
What do you think? how should they act in that case.In a lot of the "hardcore" gaming market situations can be avoided if Gender is not brought up. For example even in wow. A few of the Bleeding edge raiding guilds do not allow women into their raids. Their reason for it is that women cause to much drama.
They take this very seriously.
Post by: Eviltane01 on July 22, 2010, 07:51:38 pm
>0 female dwarfs. . . heehee
lol yeh.
Post by: Cotes on July 22, 2010, 07:56:57 pm
I have a very powerful imagination. Generally when I say "I can't possibly imagine", it means I can and have already.Even that's really silly. I mean do people always start to talk about masculinity in gaming when you meet a male online?
And while Guy #2 was indeed a brain damaged little prat, also consider the fact that Guy #1 was more interested in discussing the secrets of womanhood with her than actually playing the game (although admittedly, "playing" at that point had basically just devolved into tornado surfing and placing zombies in the skybox).
I think that's why girls don't always like to tell their sex - they immediately become identified as "gamer girl" instead of a person. Both reactions were really sexist, the second guy was just also an obnoxious idiot.
Post by: Grimlocke on July 22, 2010, 08:20:23 pm
Maybe it is that the game has a rather technical feel to it? No, dont go calling me a sexist here. I attend an engineering university, and the male/female ratio there is more then abbysmal enough to know women tend to avoid technical occupations more then men.
Of course this is an internet poll we are dealing with, and they tend to be horrendously inaccurate.
As for the whole gamer-girl-discussion: I fully understand why female players would want to not let other gamers know their gender. Even as a guy I tend to get kind of annoyed and embarrased at the reaction some of the people I regularly play games with when a girl shows up (or even some unidentified person with a female name/player model). Chatting up a girl is one thing, but it way too quickly reaches to point of just plain harrasement. That, and the actual game immediately degenerates into some sort of chatroom. One full of the lame jokes and pickup lines everyone allready heard a thousand times.
I once got especialy annoyed when I visted my sister and heard her play a game with voice chat on. The exact reaction as above.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 22, 2010, 08:35:57 pm
Am rather suprised by the outcome of this poll. I would have expected there to be more female players then this, with a game that has many kinds of appeal to it. From the sims-like household management on a larger scale, to nifty architecture and mechanics, to the merciless slaughtering of everything that moves in horrendous detail.
I'd say this poll turned out close to how I expected. I expected a 9:1 ratio of men to women, but it was actually more like 11:1, and that's not counting "goblin" either way. (Which would be 13:1 if those are indeed all male.) Naturally, this poll is still open, though.
As for "many kinds of appeal", well, like I said, there really ISN'T a sims-like household management in this game. (That's actually what I have in that suggestion...) Architecture would be wonderful, if only you could really SEE your own architecture without the use of visualizers that aren't even a part of the game. And, again, making "E" tokens start having a red background isn't exactly appealing to many women, much less the current Adventure Mode prospect of "spend umpteen hours grinding by throwing dirt clods or something, only to finally set out on your epic quest to kill every friggin' thing in the world that can be targetted. No real reason, just 'cuz that's the only thing to do around here."
Some of the upcoming adventure mode stuff inspires hope, though. It almost looks like we can play Harvest Moon (signficiantly more popular with women than men, FYI) in DF, except with elephants and giant tigers and cave crocodiles as livestock instead of boring ol' cows and chickens. With a tame ridable minotaur. WHEEEEEEE! If you put some of that on stonesense, and took screenshots, I bet you could round up some more female players.
But again, I do really think that one of the turn-offs for women in this game is the lack of ability to really empathize with your dwarves. Currently, they are your mindless slaves, they have no personalities, no wants, no aspirations, only a few baseline biological needs, and you, the player's megalomaniaical drive to build monuments like a giant wooden middle finger flipping off the world. Right now, there is only one real person in DF, and it's YOU.
Post by: Cotes on July 22, 2010, 08:40:31 pm
And females have unfortunately not integrated themselves in that great numbers to the nerd culture yet. It's still a guy thing.
Post by: Kagus on July 22, 2010, 08:43:52 pm
Both posts were meant to present reasons as to why women might want to hide their gender from the gaming community. I try to make the gaming world more hospitable to female gamers by treating them like everybody else, and yet I even notice changes in my behaviour when someone of that persuasion makes themselves known. Usually I just start acting more polite than usual, but it's still a change based on gender.
Yes, I realize that both Guy #1 and Guy #2 were acting inappropriately. They were doing so to completely different degrees, but it shouldn't have been there at all. Even me with my automatic defense of her was because she was female (although I do tend to take whatever opportunities I can find for putting down people who act like that).
I'm not trying to say it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to downplay the reactions. Quite the opposite. I've had my sarcastic remarks misinterpreted many times before, but I think this is the first time I've had my explanation fall into the same trap.
Hell, now we're even getting touchy on the subject of defending female gamers, which just emphasizes the difference even more. Can't we all just play some Zombie Master and shoot some zeds up in happy sharing equality?
Post by: Cotes on July 22, 2010, 08:52:33 pm
Am I being misunderstood, or am I the one doing the misunderstanding?I thought you might have disapproved both from the tone of your post, although you didn't state it that clearly. Just thought I'd add my take on why the first guy was being a douche too .
Both posts were meant to present reasons as to why women might want to hide their gender from the gaming community. I try to make the gaming world more hospitable to female gamers by treating them like everybody else, and yet I even notice changes in my behaviour when someone of that persuasion makes themselves known. Usually I just start acting more polite than usual, but it's still a change based on gender.
Yes, I realize that both Guy #1 and Guy #2 were acting inappropriately. They were doing so to completely different degrees, but it shouldn't have been there at all. Even me with my automatic defense of her was because she was female (although I do tend to take whatever opportunities I can find for putting down people who act like that).
I'm not trying to say it doesn't happen, nor am I trying to downplay the reactions. Quite the opposite. I've had my sarcastic remarks misinterpreted many times before, but I think this is the first time I've had my explanation fall into the same trap.
Hell, now we're even getting touchy on the subject of defending female gamers, which just emphasizes the difference even more. Can't we all just play some Zombie Master and shoot some zeds up in happy sharing equality?
Post by: Melagius on July 22, 2010, 09:17:29 pm
Post by: Cotes on July 22, 2010, 09:20:10 pm
Toady should code some sort of post-processing effects to make everything sparkly so more girls will play DF, and consequently, spend large sums of money on it, because girls love doing that.Don't forget to make the interface pink. That'll really make the chicks go crazy.
Post by: KrunkSplein on July 22, 2010, 09:26:44 pm
Every time I play The Sims, I find myself setting up my house with dwarven sensibilities. Crappy bedrooms, huge dining rooms, booze instead of TVs, etc. I also value cooking skill above gainful employment. Needless to say, my Sims households tend to go the way of my dwarf fortresses.
I LOL'ed.
As for the girl gamers thing, I think the problem is that you are qualifying them. They aren't girl gamers - they are simply Gamers. While I definitely appreciate the sociological aspect of finding out the layout of the community, everything that's spawned as a side effect of the poll seems foolish. Hmm... perhaps that's too strong a word. Let's go with Unnecessary.
Lets take this example to the extreme to illustrate my point! Imagine if someone were asking which (RL) race everyone was. Again, interesting from a sociological standpoint, but blatantly irrelevant. (and maybe offensive, i dunno)
In short, saccharine terms: we can't come together until we ignore our irrelevant differences! Lets all hold hands.
Yeah, that last sentence was sarcasm, but the rest is real ;D
Post by: GlyphGryph on July 22, 2010, 09:34:21 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 22, 2010, 09:45:54 pm
As for the girl gamers thing, I think the problem is that you are qualifying them. They aren't girl gamers - they are simply Gamers. While I definitely appreciate the sociological aspect of finding out the layout of the community, everything that's spawned as a side effect of the poll seems foolish. Hmm... perhaps that's too strong a word. Let's go with Unnecessary.
Lets take this example to the extreme to illustrate my point! Imagine if someone were asking which (RL) race everyone was. Again, interesting from a sociological standpoint, but blatantly irrelevant. (and maybe offensive, i dunno)
Well, what I wrote, I wrote in response to, essentially, this mentality:
I would have expected there to be more female players then this, with a game that has many kinds of appeal to it. From the sims-like household management on a larger scale, to nifty architecture and mechanics, to the merciless slaughtering of everything that moves in horrendous detail.
People seem to think that DF gives unparalleled freedom, and has something for everyone, when it really doesn't, and it's not just "interface problems" doing it. (Which is a whole other argument...)
This game only really has depth in two areas, one is combat, and the other is your ability to divert magma or water flows with extremely complex and interdependant mechanical systems. One applies only to strategy wargamers because of the sheer opacity of the system, and the other only applies to real engineering/computer logic geeks. There's also some matter of being able to just set up a fortress with farms and booze and flux and iron ore and charcoal, but that's actually fairly shallow, if intimidatingly front-loaded, and once you learn it, it's fairly routine.
What you wind up with if you want something else from your game is basically trying to pretend to play with happy face stickers and trying to build a story out of their lives, which is a noble endevor, but one that the game doesn't go very far to help support right now.
That societal and happiness system suggestion I wrote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=61620.0) (and seriously, I'm trying to drum up someone commenting on it :P ) I wrote because it involves the things I want to see (and in case you missed it, I'm male) in the game, but at the same time, I know it is the sort of thing that would broaden the appeal of the game, especially to female gamers, although this sort of demographic marketing is peripheral to my main point.
Post by: Eviltane01 on July 22, 2010, 10:37:26 pm
I get your point of view now and yeah I had misunderstood it. I do behave a lot in the same way.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Id love to hold hands :P. It might be irrelevant to you but at least I do have an interest in the topic as far as im concerned it went even better then expected in so far that at least a few people are having a form of discussion over it.
In the end this discussion could be over anything Choclate / vannilla ice cream , Boxers or briefs.
If the topic interested me and the venue was appropriate I would draw as many answers and view points as I could , I just love to know what people think.
Also in a way its necessary to talk about it just to prove that i know the problem exists and i want to know what the people that are around me think about the topic at hand. In the end I agree with kagus that being on say TS with a girl or not, only changes my behavior in how dirty the jokes get.
Post by: strongrudder on July 22, 2010, 11:29:12 pm
Strongrudder
What do you think is the barrier , if there is one ,that keeps women from this game?
Is it that their simply not exposed to it as much? Do you think its social pressures? Would you agree with Kohagu on any points?
I don't want to deal in stereotypes, but you kinda have to in order to make general statements, so here goes.
Disclaimer: This is based on the people I know and have observed. Any of your experiences may be different.
It seems to me that a higher percentage of women, when exposed to games, prefer the more casual, pretty ones. This could be due to the ease of getting into the game, as well as the ease of being able to put it down when something else comes up. Social pressures also seem to favor casual games for women; most people aren't going to call a girl a nerd for having cute games on her shelf.
Then you get TF2, with its strong/interesting characters, which might account for the large female following despite the war setting and black humor. (Though, granted, a certain percentage of the ladyfans just participate in the fandom and don't actually play the game)
DF, at this point, doesn't really have either of these traits - "casual" or "strong characters." It's pretty hardcore and intellectual, and the graphics aren't always perfectly representational. Even installing a tileset requires a little research into how the game files work, unless you download it preinstalled. Not to mention the sheer investment of time required just to understand how to do the most basic of tasks. I spent a lot of time on the wiki before I even had the confidence to install the game. And the dwarves of course don't really have personalities, except for the ones you project onto them. This shouldn't necessarily be considered a weakness, but if a barrier exists, this could be it. Casual gamers will probably be turned off by DF, and more ladies seem to enjoy the casual stuff.
I'd be interested in seeing what kind of background and interests the female DF players do have in common. I know I'm not terribly surprised that I've stumbled into a male-dominated community. Having been a female in a computer animation major, my graduating class had a roughly 20/3 male/female ratio. So I'm kinda used to being interested in things that are mostly enjoyed by guys. (One of my foci in school was storyboarding, which probably explains my willingness to pretend that dwarf A killed the invading hydra in revenge for pulling off the arm of dwarf B, her lover)
Footnote:
I also think that it is an interesting observation that chicks tend to be drawn a lot more toward things like the Sims. I enjoy the Sims for the story potential as well, but the interior decorating aspect, clothes, etc really bore me. It's why I prefer premade houses, so I can just get to the fun part. There was a room once that all the Sims hated, and I couldn't bring myself to care about how to fix it. So I told them to go spy on the neighbors instead, and laughed when the neighbor came over to beat them up.
/walloftext, my apologies.
Post by: chaoticag on July 22, 2010, 11:40:10 pm
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 22, 2010, 11:53:41 pm
According to the forum statistics, the male:female ratio has steadily been approaching one. When I ran the first poll on this (and with more and more people running polls on this, I feel ashamed for doing so) the ratio was about 17:1 , now it's 5.5:1. This includes anyone who basically put male or female on their profile, so I don't see the point of these polls.
mmm... but people don't always put data like that out there. I don't put anything on my profile I don't have to, so I have no gender according to my profile (and people have previously thought I was female just because of my avatar). It isn't anonymous like a poll would be.
Also, some people will just plain lie on profiles or forms you have to fill out.
I once filled out some questionaire online as "Sue Donym" just to see what kind of spam would hit my (webmail spambait) email account because of it.
Post by: Dakk on July 22, 2010, 11:59:07 pm
Can't disagree, the reality I live in also confirms this. At my university 90% of all programming and 3d animation students are males. What we have to admit is that while stereotypes are frowned upeon when you actualy mention it, they still apply to the current model of western society. Most fashion students are either female or gay, most programming students are males, most psychology students are creepy, etc.
Seriously now though, as much as we may dislike stereotypes, they still exist in our society. We can't just pretend to be amazed at how 90% of all DF players who took part in this pool are all male. I'm assuming the goblins are either gender benders or agnostics :o
Girls are attracted to more casual games because they're easy to play, you don't need alot of effort to play, say, super mario galaxy. So what about MMO girls? Well, MMOs aren't that terribly hard to play, all you need to do is repeat the same tasks for a while, but MMOs have something else that is even more attractive to girls: Social interaction. Most MMOs encourage you work as a team with other players, which involves all that sweet sweet social interaction thing.
Now lets look at DF: Basicaly you need a good ammount of effort to learn how to play it, and THEN actualy play it and try to survive for as long as you can. If you want to learn how every system in it works, you need a few hours of wiki reading and forum browsing, and of course, more gameplay. You also need to learn how to translate all the ASCII into your mind, and if you don't wanna do that, you have to actualy search for a graphic set and install it properly.
Is it casual at all? No.
Is it easy to get into? No.
Does it offer any manner of social interaction? No, the forum isn't a game feature.
Is it awesome? Absolutely.
You have to want to like DF at first, you only start actualy liking it for real when you know what you're doing, and chances are you won't know how to do anything at all at first, unless you read the wiki very carefuly and prepared yourself. A casual player would try it, fail completely, and drop it. It just so happens most girls are casual or social gamers.
Post by: Eviltane01 on July 23, 2010, 12:03:37 am
lol and thanks for the reply. I have played the Sims for 3 hours and I never knew you could have even get hurt in the game.
Once I read your post it got me thinking that at this point I have to give Kohaku credit.
As a whole I also enjoy strong characters. Several "war" books I have read recently pointed out that basically as a general you have to know your troops and in effect have to be their Mother.
They must know each soldier. Their strengths their weaknesses ,as much as possible. The he must teach them to do their best. He must know them as a mother, then teach them as a general.
I guess in the end its just fun to see the dwarfs grow from obscurity of the masses to strong Indivuals, Warriors......Legends.....
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 23, 2010, 12:08:51 am
I'm assuming the goblins are either gender benders or agnostics :o
Since when is "agnostic" a gender?
Post by: Dakk on July 23, 2010, 12:09:52 am
I'm assuming the goblins are either gender benders or agnostics :o
Since when is "agnostic" a gender?
It doesn't?
Post by: Cotes on July 23, 2010, 12:10:49 am
Because they are atheists without balls.I'm assuming the goblins are either gender benders or agnostics :o
Since when is "agnostic" a gender?
Post by: Dakk on July 23, 2010, 12:14:51 am
Because they are atheists without balls.I'm assuming the goblins are either gender benders or agnostics :o
Since when is "agnostic" a gender?
This man gets it :P
Post by: BodyGripper on July 23, 2010, 01:21:10 am
...and where the only socializing is on these boards, which have an obvious masculine confrontational bent to it.
That's not true! You are lying! I'm going to kick yer ass! *flex*Urrgh... MUSCLES!
Don't kick his ass, USE MAGMA!!!!!
Post by: Ravenplucker on July 23, 2010, 02:19:30 am
This is not to say that there is a superior sex, but men and women excel at different areas.
Males are (on average) more technically minded than females. Although stereotyping and discrimination is still present in modern society (although not at much) it is simply that men and women are interested in and excel at different things. This explains why an overwhelming proportion of engineers are male, they are more interested in how things work.
Guys like computer games so much because it has the same effect as playing a sport, namely stimulating our competitive sides. And computer games do exactly that.
Post by: nbonaparte on July 23, 2010, 02:43:28 am
The fact of the matter is that men and women are, mentally, very different.
This is not to say that there is a superior sex, but men and women excel at different areas.
Males are (on average) more technically minded than females. Although stereotyping and discrimination is still present in modern society (although not at much) it is simply that men and women are interested in and excel at different things. This explains why an overwhelming proportion of engineers are male, they are more interested in how things work.
Guys like computer games so much because it has the same effect as playing a sport, namely stimulating our competitive sides. And computer games do exactly that.
Dwarf Fortress isn't exactly a shining example of competition.
Post by: Ravenplucker on July 23, 2010, 03:09:03 am
Post by: Deon on July 23, 2010, 03:23:29 am
I wonder if there are any goblin GIRLS. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=26920.msg321564#msg321564) If there are, meet me in central park. Wang. Had to do it.Oh god. I thought it was deleted. Haha. Now I have some more food for thought (and for Fan Art thread).
Also if you want to see the registered male/female ratio, you can check the forum stats.
P.S. Male to Female ratio "5.5" : "1"
Wait what? I remember it was "10":"1". What the hell? :D
Post by: hailthefish on July 23, 2010, 03:27:08 am
According to this thread, anyone that has ovaries is attracted to glittery, pretty things, strong characters, easy and non-intellectual things.
According to this thread, anyone that likes the Sims either likes it because of the pretty wallpaper and family drama (and they have ovaries), or because you can TOTALLY BURN THEIR HOUSES DOWN AND ELECTROCUTE THEM AND MAKE THEM FALL ASLEEP IN THE POOL (this is the testicle-having portion of the population).
Perhaps this is why there's so few females playing DF, or at least willing to self-identify on the forum. Of course keep in mind that this has two layers of sampling bias. People who participate fairly actively in the DF forums rather than EVERYONE who plays DF, and people willing to identify their gender. The other reason, I think, is more likely to do with exposure to the game rather then ovaries meaning you can't possibly understand anything more complicated than operating a kitchen appliance, much less the arcane mysteries of dwarven water systems. DF is not particularly well known, there's no advertising, and the only populous places on the internet you're going to find reference to it are in other male-dominated bastions of chauvinism.
My taste in games...
I enjoy the Sims, for the building houses and for optimizing their lives. And also because it's funny when they flip out when the house catches on fire. I enjoy Dwarf Fortress for the engineering, for the citybuilding aspects. Not so much for the fluid logic stuff, or the opaque and (since I'm still using .08) broken military system. I don't like RTS games because I can't ever get a feel for how to pace myself. I enjoy the Civilization games for the fun combinations of civics and the interesting ideas they can give me, and for the strategy component. I play Halo, Bad Company 2, and TF2, though I keep the voice chat off. I have no interest in WoW because why would I want to pay money for the privilege of doing stupid, pointless, repetitive tasks? I play MUDs, but for the roleplay, not the combat.
I'm a 'girl gamer'.
Post by: strongrudder on July 23, 2010, 03:33:54 am
Let's not get worked up over people noticing general trends. Obviously stereotypes exist for a reason, but by the same token they are not a foolproof assessment, and we are aware of this.
Post by: Patchouli on July 23, 2010, 03:39:23 am
Post by: Deon on July 23, 2010, 04:17:23 am
Post by: Urist McArtStudent on July 23, 2010, 05:05:02 am
On gaming communities: I also play Pokemon (shaddup!) and used to be fairly active on Gamefaqs - now there's a community that's the antithesis of this one. There's a surprising number of females on the trade boards, who can usually be identified by their ability to type words.
Male player (~15 years old): "i want shiny squitl sum1 give me a shiny squitl plz fc in sig"
Female player (~15 years old): "Does anyone have a squirtle for trade, preferably shiny? See my sig for my Friend Code"
I have no idea why this is.
Quote
I'm trying to work out just what it is about Dwarf Fortress that attracts me to it. I think, in the end, it's gotta be the potential for story.This. As a long term pokemon player I know damn well that my favourite golem is just a collection of numerical binary data on a chip that runs repeated calculations with a certain random element, but at the same time that guy is my buddy. We've been through great adventures together, we beat the Tower Tycoon together. It's the same in Dwarf Fortress. I mean, look at Boatmurdered (hands up who got into DF via Boatmurdered). Look at the way Toady "sells" DF through those stories on the mainpage. Look at how people who do community fort stories in the story forum sometimes mod the game into unrecognizability or even dispense with the game entirely and use Asciidraw to get the story they WANT to tell. Dwarf Fortress is not the game, it's the story about the game.
Quote
According to this thread, anyone that has ovaries is attracted to glittery, pretty things, strong characters, easy and non-intellectual things.
I'm afraid a proportion of women are just rather stupid. (I'm a woman, I'm allowed to say this). What I mean is, it's acceptable or even desirable for a female to "not know very much about computers" - even if she's intellectually capable of it, which she almost always is. I heard it once from a nineteen year old who was perfectly au fait with writing complicated CSS to pimp out her Facebook page: "Computers just hate me, I can't do anything with them." Of COURSE she can do things with them - she just thinks being attractively "feminine" has to be linked with being a technological idiot! With that attitude, how is a female supposed to sit down and play an ascii-based game with an absolutely arcane interface? No, she'll go to Puzzle Pirates or Bejeweled because it's okay for women to like those games. I have several female friends who seem to think like this and it drives me absolutely wild.
Post by: Patchouli on July 23, 2010, 06:09:57 am
Sucks to be you.That hurts. That hurts both my fragile girly heart and my manly inner dwarf.
Post by: Medicine Man on July 23, 2010, 06:34:48 am
ELF!!!BURN THE ELF!!!!!Just kidding.Sucks to be you.That hurts. That hurts both my fragile girly heart and my manly inner dwarf.
Post by: Ravenplucker on July 23, 2010, 06:42:55 am
Quote
I'm afraid a proportion of women are just rather stupid. (I'm a woman, I'm allowed to say this). What I mean is, it's acceptable or even desirable for a female to "not know very much about computers" - even if she's intellectually capable of it, which she almost always is. I heard it once from a nineteen year old who was perfectly au fait with writing complicated CSS to pimp out her Facebook page: "Computers just hate me, I can't do anything with them." Of COURSE she can do things with them - she just thinks being attractively "feminine" has to be linked with being a technological idiot! With that attitude, how is a female supposed to sit down and play an ascii-based game with an absolutely arcane interface? No, she'll go to Puzzle Pirates or Bejeweled because it's okay for women to like those games. I have several female friends who seem to think like this and it drives me absolutely wild.
That was an awesome rant
Post by: Dora Feddy on July 23, 2010, 09:39:19 am
I enjoy dwarf fortress because I like building crap and because I enjoy a challenge of keeping my dorfs alive. I also play Warcraft 3, the sims, the elder scrolls: morrowind, ace attorney, and zoo tycoon.
People (guys) playing Warcraft 3 has mixed reactions to "gamer girls" . Most of the time I just allow people to assume I'm a guy, but when I get fed up with that I just go on and say 'hey, girl here'. The majority of players just shrug and correct themselves, but then there are the guys who strongly believe in the "ther r no gurlz on teh internetz" and just call me a fag, or ask for pics.... ugh.
Really, I don't care what ratio of guys to girls there are. Jeeze, just let me play and don't bother treating me differently or chatting me up.
Post by: Stove on July 23, 2010, 10:26:58 am
There are quite a few gaming communities where women show them self's without any sort of attention being brought to it.
Take the WoW forums for example in those forums women have very little issues with proclaiming who and what they are. Its just simple everyday stuff there. From what I know of the EVE community it is much the same there.
This is not consistent with what I've heard (http://www.metafilter.com/93492/But-my-name-really-is-Deathblood-Blackaxe#3171416) about the WoW community (scroll down to "Reasons Why This Is Bad").
Post by: Footkerchief on July 23, 2010, 10:45:19 am
Wikipedia, because of its confrontational, prove-it-in-writing approach, has almost completely driven out anyone but the scientifically inclined relatively young male nerd demographic. Women do not like an environment where every statement they make can be challenged, and must be backed up in triplicate.
[citation needed]
Seriously, that's a really bizarre and sexist generalization. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_science#Statistics)
Post by: Mike Mayday on July 23, 2010, 11:21:48 am
I'm also engaged to a female imp.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 23, 2010, 11:27:16 am
Wikipedia, because of its confrontational, prove-it-in-writing approach, has almost completely driven out anyone but the scientifically inclined relatively young male nerd demographic. Women do not like an environment where every statement they make can be challenged, and must be backed up in triplicate.
[citation needed]
Seriously, that's a really bizarre and sexist generalization. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_science#Statistics)
This was mostly raised to my attention by this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=q3s4f3ib1cuhbvt6s3p9s7hl&page=1 (obviously, when I was more active in TVTropes than here). Wikipedia does have a serious gender discrepency because of its policies and its culture, and pointing that out isn't sexist (nor does it mean I am making a greater statement about whether women "can hack it" in a professional world in general).
Female here. I fell in love with DF instantly, can't stand Sims. I tried a Sims game once on gamecube, got to something like the third mission which was to get my guy to earn so much at his job or something. zzz
I only played it for the ability to mod it. I have no idea why people buy it for anything but PC. Likewise with Oblivion, the adding in different costumes and homes and riding around on a dragon parts you mod in are so much more fun than actually playing the game.
On gaming communities: I also play Pokemon (shaddup!) and used to be fairly active on Gamefaqs - now there's a community that's the antithesis of this one. There's a surprising number of females on the trade boards, who can usually be identified by their ability to type words.
Male player (~15 years old): "i want shiny squitl sum1 give me a shiny squitl plz fc in sig"
Female player (~15 years old): "Does anyone have a squirtle for trade, preferably shiny? See my sig for my Friend Code"
I have no idea why this is.
Apparently, I've had a vagina all these years. Who'da thunk? But seriously, I've retained a persistant, fervant loathing of such uncouth vulgarians, and have ascertained their crippling achilles heel - utter intolerance for susquipidalian loquaciousness. I never get tired of having "You're using a thesaurus!" thrown at me as if it were some kind of insult (not that I do, anyway).
This. As a long term pokemon player I know damn well that my favourite golem is just a collection of numerical binary data on a chip that runs repeated calculations with a certain random element, but at the same time that guy is my buddy. We've been through great adventures together, we beat the Tower Tycoon together. It's the same in Dwarf Fortress. I mean, look at Boatmurdered (hands up who got into DF via Boatmurdered). Look at the way Toady "sells" DF through those stories on the mainpage. Look at how people who do community fort stories in the story forum sometimes mod the game into unrecognizability or even dispense with the game entirely and use Asciidraw to get the story they WANT to tell. Dwarf Fortress is not the game, it's the story about the game.
*puts his hand up*
I'm afraid a proportion of women are just rather stupid. (I'm a woman, I'm allowed to say this). What I mean is, it's acceptable or even desirable for a female to "not know very much about computers" - even if she's intellectually capable of it, which she almost always is. I heard it once from a nineteen year old who was perfectly au fait with writing complicated CSS to pimp out her Facebook page: "Computers just hate me, I can't do anything with them." Of COURSE she can do things with them - she just thinks being attractively "feminine" has to be linked with being a technological idiot! With that attitude, how is a female supposed to sit down and play an ascii-based game with an absolutely arcane interface? No, she'll go to Puzzle Pirates or Bejeweled because it's okay for women to like those games. I have several female friends who seem to think like this and it drives me absolutely wild.
Seriously, why do we have to keep using games I like as examples of "dumbed down games for girls"? Puzzle Pirates has plenty to offer male players, too, you know...
But anyway, yes, this is largely what I was trying to get at: Studies show that girls will be equal to boys in math at the elementary school level. When they get to around 7th grade or so, however, they suddenly start dropping behind, not because math suddenly ramped up into something they couldn't handle, but because they are told that it is, basically, not "cool" to be good at math. Males can wear being a nerd almost as a badge of pride nowadays, but females still have reason to dread it. It's not "women aren't capable of being good at math", but "women shouldn't be good at math," (so they aren't).
Pokemon is hardly less complex than most RPGs, and has plenty of arcane grinding techniques to go with it... but that's OK, because Nintendo gives it a cutesy veneer that lets you say you're playing for the cuddly critters, and not to kick someone's ass with your thoroughly researched min/maxed monsters.
In any event, if you seriously do want to make a conscious effort to bring in more female players, the way to do it would probably be with working on helping make DF build a story, which means making dwarves more empathetic, and more "human", less interchangable happy-face stickers that flicker around the map to perform actions invisibly, and create raw material tokens or process raw material tokens into finished product tokens.
Or, you know, just make it look cuter. Stonesense would make that fairly easy, as it's already fairly cartoonish.
Post by: darkrider2 on July 23, 2010, 12:23:45 pm
I was also told that girls think its cute when I go on about dwarf fortress or portal or half-li... etc.
[citation needed][vertification needed][relevance needed]
Post by: Noble Digger on July 23, 2010, 12:33:28 pm
World of Warcraft (in the US) has one of the most abrasive and judgmental communities i've ever been a part of. The forums (especially most of the realm forums) are not a safe or friendly place. Trolling, while harmless in most forms, is rampant on nearly every board. You can go on the public chat channels in WoW and shout any kind of racial epithet you want in all caps for seven hours and not get banned. Revealing yourself as a female in the public channels and forums invites other kinds of harassment, and even though some of this harassment is completely illegal, the offenders will not be banned even following a complaint. The /ignore command is the only effective weapon, and it can only ignore some arbitrary max number of people like 30 or 50 or 100. It's never enough.
Quote
I'm afraid a proportion of women are just rather stupid.:O
Quote
(I'm a woman, I'm allowed to say this).No you're not--I mean, you are, but it's still ignorant if you say such a thing, even though you're also a woman. A proportion of all people are rather stupid, I guess, relative to whatever benchmark you're using and haven't shared with us. But it sounds more to me like you're in denial about the fact that some men are turned off by women who are more capable than themselves. You're obviously angry at the women who choose to play the ball where it lies, in that regard, but what I can't understand is why? They're making their own choices, i.e. to represent themselves as effeminate and distressed, possibly to get along better with "the boys." You're choosing...something else. What, I can't say, but your bitterness clearly comes through in your post. If those girls are trying to get into relationships with macho boys who are turned off by women more capable than themselves, then those girls are doing it right. Such a male may not meet your needs, but chances are it's what that girl is after. The real shame is that you don't seem to be able to live and let live. Being a woman, though, doesn't make you the expert or even a shining example, so your "I can say this because I'm a woman" nonsense, wow, it's just unattractive in every way.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 23, 2010, 12:50:44 pm
Hypothetically, if we were put in a room filled with balls of different sizes and colors, and I measured all of those, and found that the green balls were, on average, 1.2 times larger than the red balls, even if some red balls were larger than almost any other green ball... would that still be a generalization?
Do not let a misguided, though not entirely wrong, notion of male and female equality confuse the notion that there are still different social pressures placed upon the genders, and that this does have a measurable psychological impact. It would be as wrong as the notion that racism is over just because the Jim Crow laws are struck down, even if people still hold prejudices that black men are violent and lazy, and that they therefore can't be trusted with a job, and that black unemployment remains higher than other races because of it.
Post by: Kagus on July 23, 2010, 01:07:29 pm
But it sounds more to me like you're in denial about the fact that some men are turned off by women who are more capable than themselves. You're obviously angry at the women who choose to play the ball where it lies, in that regard, but what I can't understand is why? They're making their own choices, i.e. to represent themselves as effeminate and distressed, possibly to get along better with "the boys." You're choosing...something else. What, I can't say, but your bitterness clearly comes through in your post. If those girls are trying to get into relationships with macho boys who are turned off by women more capable than themselves, then those girls are doing it right. Such a male may not meet your needs, but chances are it's what that girl is after.
They are preventing themselves from doing things they might otherwise want to do and are effectively lying to themselves and others in order to support some image? How the hell could this possibly be the right thing to do?
"Playing the ball where it lies"? Yes, they're doing it right. But they're doing the wrong thing right. Getting together with someone who enjoys your image rather than your true self is very, very rarely a happily ever after. Let those dweebs go off and find someone who truly is just the kind of person they're looking for, don't try to change who you are in an attempt to satisfy some warped perception of what you think you want. If they don't want you for you, then they don't want you. It's not easy, but it is simple.
I'm a guy, and I'm sickened by anyone attempting to be something they most clearly are not. Screw the gender difference, dishonesty is never attractive.
The real shame is that you don't seem to be able to live and let live. Being a woman, though, doesn't make you the expert or even a shining example, so your "I can say this because I'm a woman" nonsense, wow, it's just unattractive in every way.
As I'm sure you can perceive, I am also quite bitter. I dislike certain personality traits, and I see those traits in entirely too many places. I also don't see anything wrong with disliking personality traits like that because they are detrimental to others around them.
Post by: Noble Digger on July 23, 2010, 01:08:47 pm
Post by: Noble Digger on July 23, 2010, 01:22:16 pm
I believe she said that to dispense with any "you're a guy and thus cannot make generalizations about women". Being a woman, it's 'alright' for her to say that since she would know. It's still a negative generalization, and so yadda yadda individuals.But it sounds more to me like you're in denial about the fact that some men are turned off by women who are more capable than themselves. You're obviously angry at the women who choose to play the ball where it lies, in that regard, but what I can't understand is why? They're making their own choices, i.e. to represent themselves as effeminate and distressed, possibly to get along better with "the boys." You're choosing...something else. What, I can't say, but your bitterness clearly comes through in your post. If those girls are trying to get into relationships with macho boys who are turned off by women more capable than themselves, then those girls are doing it right. Such a male may not meet your needs, but chances are it's what that girl is after.
They are preventing themselves from doing things they might otherwise want to do and are effectively lying to themselves and others in order to support some image? How the hell could this possibly be the right thing to do?
"Playing the ball where it lies"? Yes, they're doing it right. But they're doing the wrong thing right. Getting together with someone who enjoys your image rather than your true self is very, very rarely a happily ever after. Let those dweebs go off and find someone who truly is just the kind of person they're looking for, don't try to change who you are in an attempt to satisfy some warped perception of what you think you want. If they don't want you for you, then they don't want you. It's not easy, but it is simple.
I'm a guy, and I'm sickened by anyone attempting to be something they most clearly are not. Screw the gender difference, dishonesty is never attractive.The real shame is that you don't seem to be able to live and let live. Being a woman, though, doesn't make you the expert or even a shining example, so your "I can say this because I'm a woman" nonsense, wow, it's just unattractive in every way.
As I'm sure you can perceive, I am also quite bitter. I dislike certain personality traits, and I see those traits in entirely too many places. I also don't see anything wrong with disliking personality traits like that because they are detrimental to others around them.
Yeah, for sure, a LOT of us are wearing brown-colored glasses like you, as well. It's by pretending to be something for an extended period of time (until the change takes) that you can become something else which might otherwise seem out of your ballpark. That, too, is a kind of freedom. There are women who are perfectly capable and intelligent who nonetheless enjoy behaving like uneducated immoral sluts. I don't mean that in ANY derogatory way, truly. Sometimes it's fun to step out of your usual realm and be something you aren't. Given enough time, it stops being an act. Girls who enjoy a lot of fucking are not bad people.
Being a woman doesn't make her "all women" - one woman is not qualified to generalize about all women, nor are those generalizations inherently less harmful or incorrect on the basis that the speaker has a vagina or other feminine traits.
For reasons you may not understand, that girl who is excellent at CSS but nonetheless bimboes over to the jerkish guys and says "oh my, I can't computer, I might accidentally a nail" then goes home with one of them, might be pursuing her own perfectly valid interests. You might see it as a misrepresentation, or a lie, or anything else negative...but it's still not. Is it a lie when you go work for McDonald's and make a genuine effort to do well at the job, just because you aren't truly, deep down, the kind of person who wanted to work there? I know my example skews far away from what we're talking about, not involving sexuality and all, but please try and see the parallel I'm attempting to make.
As a male, whenever I've gotten into a relationship with a girl, it had to start out with me "misrepresenting" myself by pretending to care about that girl's life, friends, feelings, and other things unrelated to me or my life. Eventually, that girl becomes my girlfriend, and I actually care. When I've met a stranger, I had to "misrepresent" myself by showing an interest in whatever they happened to be talking about. Eventually, I know that stranger, and it's less of a lie when I act like I care. Less of one, I stress that part. In any case, there are tons and tons and tons of guys and girls out there who may seem to have a questionable level of light in their hearts--I use that term to refer to the "goodness" we're all quick to claim we possess--who nonetheless want to find hope and happiness in their lives. The whole microcosm of their interactions might sicken you, from your ivory tower of moral superiority, but they are pursuing happiness the same as anyone else. :)
One thing is for sure. If I chose to greet this world with 100% honesty at all times and never pretend anything for the sake of others, I'd be in prison. I think a little make-believe is helpful to our ability to coexist as a society. :)
Post by: Deon on July 23, 2010, 01:40:19 pm
FOODFIGHT!Sucks to be you.That hurts. That hurts both my fragile girly heart and my manly inner dwarf.
Post by: Grimlocke on July 23, 2010, 02:04:19 pm
Whats IS wrong however is the misuse of generalisations, and the use of invalid generalisations.
And what I frankly see as just as stupid is this modernist trend of though that says that generalisation is bad in any form and use. Saying that men and women arnt different because everyone is different is just plain rubbish. Cant see the slightest grain of logic in there, its a completely false comparsion between groups and individuals. Of course the gender groups are different, it is a very important part ones person. The same goes for ethic groups, cultural groups, age groups, political groups, whatnot.
What you should be lashing out against is the stupid people making false comparsions, the ones saying 'this one is black so he must be unemployed' or 'this ones a woman so she must hate technology'. Lashing out against generalisations in general realy just shows you dont know what a generalisation is.
Post by: Kagus on July 23, 2010, 02:27:04 pm
It's by pretending to be something for an extended period of time (until the change takes) that you can become something else which might otherwise seem out of your ballpark. That, too, is a kind of freedom. There are women who are perfectly capable and intelligent who nonetheless enjoy behaving like uneducated immoral sluts. I don't mean that in ANY derogatory way, truly. Sometimes it's fun to step out of your usual realm and be something you aren't. Given enough time, it stops being an act.I've never fully believed this. Yes, you can form personality habits, but I don't think it actually changes the core of who you are. And since you are now acting in a way that is different from or directly contrary to your true self, even though it is automatic, you risk inner conflicts that will spill out into the other aspects of your life.
Mind you, this is just how I perceive things. I'm not a psychologist, so I can't make any deeply founded statements on the nature of the beast. This is just a personal observation.
Girls who enjoy a lot of fucking are not bad people.This... Doesn't really have anything to do with anything. Am I missing something?
Being a woman doesn't make her "all women" - one woman is not qualified to generalize about all women, nor are those generalizations inherently less harmful or incorrect on the basis that the speaker has a vagina or other feminine traits.No, you're right, being a woman doesn't make her an official spokesperson for all her gender.
But I am fairly certain that the comment was only included because of the standard response we have when listening to someone talk about the opposite sex; namely that they're just blowing smoke and don't actually know what they're talking about.
It's an incorrect statement made to combat an equally misguided assumption. Don't put too much emphasis on it.
For reasons you may not understand, that girl who is excellent at CSS but nonetheless bimboes over to the jerkish guys and says "oh my, I can't computer, I might accidentally a nail" then goes home with one of them, might be pursuing her own perfectly valid interests. You might see it as a misrepresentation, or a lie, or anything else negative...but it's still not.Okay, here's what I'm having difficulty understanding... How is that not a lie? How is it not a negative thing to use misdirection as a means of getting what you want?
Alright, so I do see a gray area here, but it's not the same one you're seeing. The one I see is the area of 'social games', wherein people will say any number of wild or untrue things as an indirect method of communicating with the other players. While I still don't particularly care for this, it is debatable as to whether or not it's really lying, since the person doesn't believe it themselves and doesn't expect the other person to either.
Even if we decide to do away with lasting relationships and focus primarily on the sex (which seems to fascinate you for some completely obscure and unfathomable reason. I mean, it's not like us guys spend 100% of our time thinking about sex), I do maintain that it is quite possible to get into someone's pants without the need for untruths. Then again, maybe I'm just so awesome that I pull it off naturally.
Is it a lie when you go work for McDonald's and make a genuine effort to do well at the job, just because you aren't truly, deep down, the kind of person who wanted to work there? I know my example skews far away from what we're talking about, not involving sexuality and all, but please try and see the parallel I'm attempting to make.I'm afraid I don't actually see the parallel you're drawing, because I don't consider those two aspects (taking pride in your work and wanting to work somewhere better) as being related. Some people (like me) just enjoy making the most out of what they do, and try do the best they can at whatever they're doing. They don't have to like what they're doing in order to like being good at it.
Now, fudging your resumé so you can get into a good-paying job? That's a lie. It's still a bad comparison though, since you're not lying to yourself as much.
As a male, whenever I've gotten into a relationship with a girl, it had to start out with me "misrepresenting" myself by pretending to care about that girl's life, friends, feelings, and other things unrelated to me or my life. Eventually, that girl becomes my girlfriend, and I actually care. When I've met a stranger, I had to "misrepresent" myself by showing an interest in whatever they happened to be talking about. Eventually, I know that stranger, and it's less of a lie when I act like I care. Less of one, I stress that part. In any case, there are tons and tons and tons of guys and girls out there who may seem to have a questionable level of light in their hearts--I use that term to refer to the "goodness" we're all quick to claim we possess--who nonetheless want to find hope and happiness in their lives. The whole microcosm of their interactions might sicken you, from your ivory tower of moral superiority, but they are pursuing happiness the same as anyone else. :)You are faking interest in someone. Not only are you lying to them by pretending to be interested, you're lying to yourself by making such an effort to be around someone you don't actually like talking to. You're right, that does sicken me.
Now I'm going to have to scrape vomit off the side of this tower for the rest of the week.
One thing is for sure. If I chose to greet this world with 100% honesty at all times and never pretend anything for the sake of others, I'd be in prison. I think a little make-believe is helpful to our ability to coexist as a society. :)Is it Eurasia or Eastasia we're fighting with now, brother?
Post by: strongrudder on July 23, 2010, 02:43:14 pm
Post by: Grimlocke on July 23, 2010, 02:58:20 pm
I just hate feigning interest and kindness, not because I am moraly concious or anything, but just because me makes feel fake. I find prentensiousness sickening, and I cant possibly be the only one. I very often see conversations where at least one side is just feigning interest, and doing so poorly enough for me to notice. This trend of though of 'I have to feign interest/flat out lie to get along with people/get laid' realy puts me off. Unless you are a completely rotten or apathetic person there should be plenty people and subjects you are genuinely interested in.
This may all sounds very bitter and miserable, but it has actualy kept me making bad 'friends' and lets me spend more time with people I am genuinely interested in.
@strongrudder: im glad I dont have a TV with the way my coontry's politics are faring.
Post by: Kagus on July 23, 2010, 03:05:07 pm
...This reminds me of why I'm both attracted to and repulsed by politics. I find the way it works to be fascinating, and yet the pointless bickering eventually makes me want to throw my TV at the wall.
I've never been particularly interested in politics. Having spent most of my life in the U.S., my interpretation of it is filled with blatant posturing, petty stickthrowing and overall childish behaviour. The really good politicians don't even have personal beliefs, they just say and do whatever will get them elected, and then they spend their term planning how to get re-elected.
Philosophy, on the other hand, is more my style. Pointlessly discussing anything and everything for the fun of it. Of course, I've always liked a good argument... As I'm sure becomes clear now and again.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 23, 2010, 03:24:37 pm
...This reminds me of why I'm both attracted to and repulsed by politics. I find the way it works to be fascinating, and yet the pointless bickering eventually makes me want to throw my TV at the wall.
Well, you're missing a few other important parts: remember that these people are determining the fate of the world with their childish antics, and that it is actually the active goal of some of them to make nobody want to listen to politics, because that means less people vote, and the less people who vote, the more the vote of the crazies (who always vote) counts. As such, it's partially your responsibility to the world to oppose the crazies.
THEN, instead of throwing the TV through the wall, you can instead just do what I do when watching the news, and curl into a ball and cry.
Post by: Urist McArtStudent on July 23, 2010, 03:29:06 pm
Maybe I was too "bitter" in my previous post, but it does annoy me to see women going "oh tee hee I need a big strong man to show me how to send an email". It's dishonest and I feel they're letting the side down. We were supposed to have left that behind in the 1950s. I know those girls aren't stupid, I'd just like them to believe it's okay to be good at technical things. That's all.
On that note, take a look at "boy toys" and "girl toys" sometime. It's remarkable how many toys marketed to boys are all about building or doing cool stuff with them - meccano, bionicle, action man, while almost everything for girls is "you can dress it up and maybe play house with it or if you're really lucky pretend you're a princess with it". In mainstream gaming, there are boy games, which is basically everything, and then there are specific girl games, which is er... maybe Cooking Mama, Barbie and those pony sims that clog the DS shelves in Gamestop? That may be another reason why there's such a dearth of girls in gaming - the games that are actually marketed to them are incredibly unappealing.
...Anyway, back to Dwarf Fortress...
Post by: Kagus on July 23, 2010, 03:34:36 pm
That had to be one of the most frustrating game experiences I have ever endured. There's something to be said of a person who ragequit Barbie.
Post by: Eviltane01 on July 23, 2010, 04:12:30 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
i just lolled.
There are so many posts I want to reply to here but that will have to wait till I get off of work and hopefully have some time to type:D
Post by: Lalandrathon on July 23, 2010, 05:30:47 pm
On that note, take a look at "boy toys" and "girl toys" sometime. It's remarkable how many toys marketed to boys are all about building or doing cool stuff with them - meccano, bionicle, action man, while almost everything for girls is "you can dress it up and maybe play house with it or if you're really lucky pretend you're a princess with it".
Dude, obviously someone needs to make a toy where you can build stuff with it *and* dress people up. Like legos only with larger scale characters and customizable clothes. It would be the most awesome toy ever! You could sell it to everybody! Make money and promote egalitarianism!
Post by: darkrider2 on July 23, 2010, 05:46:52 pm
On that note, take a look at "boy toys" and "girl toys" sometime. It's remarkable how many toys marketed to boys are all about building or doing cool stuff with them - meccano, bionicle, action man, while almost everything for girls is "you can dress it up and maybe play house with it or if you're really lucky pretend you're a princess with it".
Yeah smbc pointed this out to me. I found it very intriguing. Actually I might just pull the k'nex back out of the closet for old times sake... thanks a lot.
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 23, 2010, 05:55:51 pm
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp05282008.shtml
Post by: Noble Digger on July 23, 2010, 06:15:07 pm
You are faking interest in someone. Not only are you lying to them by pretending to be interested, you're lying to yourself by making such an effort to be around someone you don't actually like talking to. You're right, that does sicken me.
Now I'm going to have to scrape vomit off the side of this tower for the rest of the week.One thing is for sure. If I chose to greet this world with 100% honesty at all times and never pretend anything for the sake of others, I'd be in prison. I think a little make-believe is helpful to our ability to coexist as a society. :)Is it Eurasia or Eastasia we're fighting with now, brother?
When I used the term "Ivory Tower" I didn't intend to imply that you had any actual superiority over anyone else--it's basically a derogatory reference, sir. In my experience it refers to the condition created when someone decides to intellectually isolate himself from truths which are inconvenient to the formation of a perspective which only includes ideas that contribute to the individual's belief in his picture of an ideal world. The ideal world, of course, doesn't exist, in particular because we each live a subjective life with subjective experiences and perspectives on those experiences. I imagine that your ideal world would reek, to me. In any case, Wikipedia's definition says about Ivory Tower:
Quote
"From the 19th century it has been used to designate a world or atmosphere where intellectuals engage in pursuits that are disconnected from the practical concerns of everyday life. As such, it usually carries pejorative connotations of a wilful disconnect from the everyday world."
That definition sums it up a bit better than my verbal diarrhea. Maybe you're one of those selective individuals who picks and chooses who's cool enough to be worth your time and ignores emails and snubs the rest, perhaps you have that luxury. By your reasoning, I shouldn't be friends with most of my friends, even now. In any case, you word it as "faking an interest", and I've long said that the best way to learn about a person is to see how they describe the actions of others. I would never describe my actions that way, nor would I describe the same actions taken by another person in that way.
Quote
You are faking interest in someone. Not only are you lying to them by pretending to be interested, you're lying to yourself by making such an effort to be around someone you don't actually like talking to. You're right, that does sicken me.
I would be lonely and friendless if I behaved as your vomit suggests I should behave, because I don't often meet people that make me say "Wow! You're incredible! I need you in my life! Can we be pals?" I might not have any friends at all if I didn't make an effort to understand other people and make a place for them in my life, as my natural inclination is NOT to seek out social relationships much at all. I often perceive other people as having very low standards when it comes to showing respect to one another, and that's something I find very important. Not pulling at other peoples' loose ends, not seeking to create unhappiness. People who can't control themselves in that regard are the only ones I really consider bad enough to actively avoid.
Most of my current friends are people I would never have met if not for numerous convenient happenstances. From the outside, with my lenses (figurative lenses, I don't use vision correction), those people looked pretty shitty. But they're my friends now, because each time, I was in a situation where I had to choose to either make an effort to speak to them and get along, or stare at the walls and close myself off and pass the time in solitude. I ended up learning that we had a lot more in common than I thought and that most of the prickly stuff was just part of the outward facade. That's the case for most people I've ever come to like! We have a great big planet full of people who are very different, on the inside especially, and we don't understand one another very well "on average" but with a little work, sometimes work that goes uphill against the self's natural inclinations or habits, we can learn better ways and adopt those ways and live better, less-lonely lives. It's worth doing, imho.
You say this is a lie, to myself and everyone else. That's stone-cold-fucking-retarded if you ask me. If I followed your advice I would not make a positive difference in anyone else's life, and I'd probably be on an internet forum somewhere trolling instead.
When you talk about "the core person" that I'm supposedly lying to, I want to slap you upside the head with the nature-versus-nurture debate. Who raised you, and how much of "who you are" was put there by them? Is it supposed to be genetic, this "who you are?" As far as I'm concerned, after a fashion, "you" are the choices that you make. I don't often meet people that I naturally like, so now and then I choose to make an effort to understand someone I might not otherwise like, and end up becoming their friend. Am I wrong, brother? In your ivory tower, I suppose I am, but I don't live there, brother.
Post by: Noble Digger on July 23, 2010, 06:20:01 pm
http://www.eatmedaily.com/2009/06/dos-equis-ad-campaign-the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world-video/
Post by: strongrudder on July 23, 2010, 06:49:17 pm
Well, you're missing a few other important parts: remember that these people are determining the fate of the world with their childish antics, and that it is actually the active goal of some of them to make nobody want to listen to politics, because that means less people vote, and the less people who vote, the more the vote of the crazies (who always vote) counts. As such, it's partially your responsibility to the world to oppose the crazies.That's why I cram most of my researching and politics-following into the months of the year where politicians are gunning to be elected. Then after I do my duty and vote, I steer clear of the whole mess for a bit (go back to watching the news and reading editorials casually) until it's time to study up again. Gotta give the mind and soul a little time to heal. ;)
THEN, instead of throwing the TV through the wall, you can instead just do what I do when watching the news, and curl into a ball and cry.
As for the topic at hand:
Whoo, internet backdraft. I personally think that nature and nurture both have a say in how a given person thinks and acts, which begs some interesting questions about what gender does and doesn't affect. But I don't think I'll elaborate too much - while I enjoy debate, I get the feeling that some are taking this discussion too personally... and it's likely not what the topic was created for. :/
Post by: Kagus on July 23, 2010, 07:26:09 pm
I am also not a particularly sociable or outgoing person. Indeed, I have very few friends. I am not afraid nor ashamed to admit that however; as I deeply cherish, respect and enjoy each one of them.
For most of them, our acquaintance began with my creating some fairly negative first impressions of them. As we were forced to work and spend time together, I grew to know them better as a matter of course. Others I met simply because I was trying to socialize. Yes, it is quite possible that I would never have gotten to know them under different circumstances, but that's just how life is.
Not once, in any situation, did I feign interest. Not once, in any situation, did I pretend to be someone or something I was not. It is blunt, and it has made me a fair share of enemies along the way. If that's how they feel when confronted with someone like me, then I quite frankly want nothing to do with them. I see nothing wrong with this.
You go on to talk about getting past a prickly facade, and getting to know and understand the person beneath it (themes which haven't been particularly clear in your previous posts). I could hardly agree more. However, I do not see how or why pretending to like something you don't should factor into this. Regardless of how reserved or even standoffish a person may be under first acquaintances, aspects of who they are underneath will shine through. Latch onto those, and don't bother with the pretenses.
It is apparent that we both misunderstand each other to some degree. What I had garnered from your posts was that you would make an appearance of liking someone even though you didn't, and then just get used to it. Like a habit. Your earlier comment about relationships makes it sound as though you aren't even listening to them, and that later on you only get interested in what she's saying because she's your girlfriend, so her activities reflect on you. I'm not saying that this was your intended point, because it certainly doesn't sound like that now, I'm just saying that that's the impression I got from what you had written.
As for the mention of a core personality, I suppose my beliefs have been altered by the writings of Dr. Taylor Hartman, who suggests that while we do take on different characteristics over the course of our lives, we are indeed born with an original personality and set of life goals that remains with us throughout.
I'm not happy with the general tone this disagreement has taken on, and I do wish we could settle this peaceably. If necessary, as I suspect it is, we can agree to disagree and be done with it. We obviously have differing viewpoints, and it's clear that our style of presenting our arguments is utterly ineffectual at instilling anything other than defensiveness in the other party. And no, that was not meant as some underhanded remark about you, I am equally if not more guilty of lashing out as you are.
One final comment, however...
imho.
Don't do this, please. It invalidates anything that comes before it.
Post by: Craftling on July 23, 2010, 07:42:55 pm
Most of the time I just allow people to assume I'm a guy, but when I get fed up with that I just go on and say 'hey, girl here'.I play Warcraft III (Alot) and I basicly assume that every person on bnet is a male.
And someone said something about a pink interferance? Now I want it :D
Post by: Noble Digger on July 23, 2010, 07:45:25 pm
I re-iterate: I'm not angry with anyone! "Stone-cold-fucking-retarded", let's just call that a very forthright assessment of my perception of your manner of thinking, in contrast to my "usual", "friendly" manner, I suppose. (Today I like putting words in quotations, that's about as far as I like to go with sarcasm, it's just such a tired, sickly beaten dog thanks to the internet and forums in general)
While it's perfectly possible to infer tone and verbal irony from text based on context, I find that most of the time doing so ends up to be in error. I more meant that you seemed to be enjoying the idea of the Ivory Tower when I intended that to be an unflattering image. :) If you actually lived in an Ivory Tower, THEN I might make an effusive effort to befriend you (and steal your tower)
Post by: Kagus on July 23, 2010, 07:51:36 pm
Post by: Noble Digger on July 23, 2010, 08:15:02 pm
Indeed, I've heard it said that much can be deduced of a man based on how he describes others.
Touché.
Post by: KrunkSplein on July 23, 2010, 09:15:46 pm
Y'all suck :D
Also, someone (can't be bothered to go back pages) mentioned their favorite pokemon and the adventures they shared. I sincerely hope that's not gender-specific, because it's awesome. Mine's not a Golem though, it's a Kadabra. Also, I go to great lengths to keep track of my starting 7 dwarves, and give them better things than anyone who comes as a migrant. Not really sure what that says about me, as I'm not sure how pervasive that particular trait is.
Oh, and LEGO are awesome. Sometimes I go look at some of the megaprojects that people do, and then am saddened that I don't have the creativity needed to come up with one myself.
...what were we talking about?
Post by: NW_Kohaku on July 23, 2010, 09:25:36 pm
...what were we talking about?
We were talking about how games like Pokemon or Puzzle Pirates or even games like Oblivion are not gender-specific games. They are examples of games females can get into easily without fear of the stigma of "nerdiness", and have more gender balance in their play audience because of it.
Post by: DeKaFu on July 23, 2010, 11:22:30 pm
I think it was after a bunch of failed nethack that I decided to go ahead and read the DF wiki and install some graphics, and it really snagged me that time. I mean, full-day play sessions. It was beautiful.
I got into gaming in general via Pokemon. (Scyther is and always will be my main mon, but I'm also guilty of having stuff like Furret and Linoon on my team against the elite 4, just because they were on my team from the very beginning and I couldn't bring myself to let them go). Monsters in general are what tend to draw me to games, though I've branched out from that over the years. And by "monsters" I'm including the spectrum from Pokemon to Silent Hill 2. Extra points if the monster is you. Less humanoid the better.
I'd offer more stunning insight into female gamers as a whole, but I only know a handful of gamers of either gender, and we all play pretty much the same stuff. Except DF, they all treat me like I'm crazy for that. :P
Post by: chaoticag on July 24, 2010, 12:59:01 am
I'd offer more stunning insight into female gamers as a whole, but I only know a handful of gamers of either gender, and we all play pretty much the same stuff. Except DF, they all treat me like I'm crazy for that. :PShowing DF to my friends convinced them that graphics really do matter. As far as any differences between male gamers and female gamers, or males and females in general, I'd chalk it up to a large environmental cause, and a small genetic bit.
Hell, my sister enjoys playing the GTA games, as well as the sims, and introduced me to halo. She isn't as much of a gamer as she used to be, but her tastes were all over the place, and so are mine. It really were our brothers that influenced us to get into gaming, and I remember playing virtua cop with all my siblings.
Post by: Kagus on July 24, 2010, 01:15:28 am
But the Sims themselves? Screw the useless bastards. If they can't figure out for themselves that walking all the way across the plot to start grilling burgers when what they really needed to do was go to the toilet... Yeah, I didn't want to deal with it.
I also didn't like how it kept realistic work hours and movement speeds when the day goes by at sixty times that of a real day.
And the expansion packs, don't get me started on the expansion packs... Although I will admit, I soon found out that the key to victory in the Sims 1 was to get the Livin' Large expansion pack, construct a tiny hovel, and add Serv-O. Done deal.
Post by: chaoticag on July 24, 2010, 01:34:55 am
Post by: Kagus on July 24, 2010, 01:55:27 am
You know, I remember reading somewhere that the original Sims concept was for it to be an architectural simulator.
And am I the only person who designed impromptu theft prevention devices when a burglar shows up? Like an incredibly long labyrinth constructed from picket fencing, forcing them to creep around in circles while the cops took their sweet time in getting there?
Just don't block them off completely. They can teleport.
Post by: Azzuro on July 24, 2010, 02:17:39 am
As an aside, I think the only sites on the Internet which have a fifty-fifty gender split would be social networking sites like Facebook, because they appeal to almost everyone.
Post by: Beeskee on July 24, 2010, 09:31:04 am
Spoiler: The Guinea Pig (click to show/hide)
On-Topic: I've seen gamers admit they are female in various games and it turned into a shitstorm of people hitting on them, asking for pictures, asking for sexual favors, or just generally going "Duurrrh GURL EQUALS BOOBIES!" There are also a fair number of guys (or girls pretending to be guys) who get pissed at that kind of behavior.
Post by: Maggarg - Eater of chicke on July 24, 2010, 10:10:02 am
Post by: Doomshifter on July 24, 2010, 01:22:57 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 24, 2010, 01:26:01 pm
Post by: Snook on July 24, 2010, 01:45:22 pm
And there's female gamers out there. The school I went to was engineering-only, and had a 1:4 female:male ratio... But the girls who were there loved their video games. Too many of them loved their junk food, too, sadly.
Post by: Vector on July 24, 2010, 02:07:39 pm
In case you didn't notice, I'm really not much of a gamer sort, though I'm kind of addicted to Civ IV. There's a certain something about eating rival cultures alive and stealing everyone else's wonders.
Women do not like an environment where every statement they make can be challenged, and must be backed up in triplicate. E-peens or not, that's the environment we have, where you have to show your work.
They don't? That's odd. Maybe I should consider a career change.
Psst: blanketing stereotypes like this one make it hard to pay attention to anything else coming out of your mouth. In fact, how about this: back your statements up. Articles, citations, something that shows your work.
This explains why an overwhelming proportion of engineers are male, they are more interested in how things work.
Actually, in my experience women are far more interested in "finding out how things work" than men are. What do you think all that talking is about? Finding out how things work. I'll admit that we may be somewhat less prone to aimless tinkering, though.
Of COURSE she can do things with them - she just thinks being attractively "feminine" has to be linked with being a technological idiot!
I'm going to have to disagree with your "women are dumb for doing this" attitude. It all depends on what a woman wants, and it seems foolish to me to denigrate someone who wants, say, a hot boyfriend.
My personal experience with not being attractively "feminine," as someone who routinely beat the pants off her classmates in mathematics and computer science, is that no one will talk to you. The boys will talk to each other, to be sure, but I ended up completely isolated. It all depends on the sacrifices you're willing to make.
Post by: freeformschooler on July 24, 2010, 05:12:57 pm
Post by: ILikePie on July 24, 2010, 05:17:47 pm
they will be 100% willing to give it to any random 600 lbs. gamer that lives with their mom.Hey, /I/ live with my mom. :P
Post by: freeformschooler on July 24, 2010, 05:22:56 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on July 24, 2010, 05:31:30 pm
Guise what give gorls extra stuff in MMORPGs (Note that gorls what accept stuff on MMORPGs don't bother me. If I were a gorl I'd do it, in fact I've considered pretending to be a gorl to get stuff)
Gorls what think playing Call of Duty badly makes them hawt gamer chicks and extremely desirable
Guise what think above are extremely desirable
Guise what ask girls for nude pics as a "joke"
Guise/Gorls what reference xkcd when above happens.
Guise/Gorls what care what's in other people's pants when all they interact with is letters on a screen. Nothing is going to come of it. It doesn't matter. If you call someone he/she/them/it/whatever and they correct you, honor their request. Other than that, it is not important.
Post by: smigenboger on July 24, 2010, 06:25:25 pm
On Skype, I've noticed games are more of a side hobby, and not a main one to most of them.
Post by: Aqizzar on July 24, 2010, 06:33:54 pm
I met one girl in college who actively started conversations about games, specifically World of Warcraft. She apparently played it all the time, with her husband. She loved WoW. Really loved WoW. For a public-speaking course, we had to do persuasive speeches, where you sell the benefits of some concept or activity. She did a speech selling the benefits of roleplaying, in a (very Brooklyn-ish) "Troll" accent from beginning to end.
Post by: Outcast Orange on July 24, 2010, 07:02:20 pm
Gorls what think playing Call of Duty badly makes them hawt gamer chicks and extremely desirable
X D
That one wins the internet.
I was playing against someone with a tag something like "hawtgamer_girl348P8"
who used a light machine gun with juggernaut and martyrdom.
They'd just run in a room, pump the atmosphere full of lead, and kill everyone without even aiming.
If you could last long enough to take down the juggernaut-aided health,
chances are that the martyrdom would blow up just close enough to finish off your bullet filled self.
This person did pretty well overall, but you never once felt your death was justified or fair when killed by her/him.
Post by: Aqizzar on July 24, 2010, 07:06:54 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on July 24, 2010, 07:10:02 pm
When I said play badly, I meant play poorly. As in, .2 kdr. I didn't mean kick ass by means you don't appreciate.
Post by: Mishy on July 24, 2010, 07:11:58 pm
Post by: Kagus on July 24, 2010, 07:14:40 pm
Oh, and that's nothing. I once managed to hold down a 1-9 KDR in a Battlefield 2 match. Didn't score me any chicks though.
Post by: Aqizzar on July 24, 2010, 07:18:22 pm
Post by: chaoticag on July 24, 2010, 07:21:25 pm
Post by: Aqizzar on July 24, 2010, 07:38:53 pm
Post by: Jackrabbit on July 24, 2010, 07:54:35 pm
For that matter, I'm wondering why there's two options for dwarfs. Dwarven females? How could you tell?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
On a different note, know what pisses me off? When someone acts like a prick to a female gamer, and then someone else says "dude, don't be such an asshole" and is branded a white knight and is suddenly a loser. Not, "dude, can't you see this wonderful women is trying to have a good time?" or "dude, how dare you, women are creatures to be admired!" or something similar but just calling the guy out for being a prick and bam, he's a white knight and a dork and dude she doesn't need your defense you creepy fuck. This has never happened to me personally, but since I will call someone out if they're acting like a dick to anyone it's only a matter of time. Wheeee, looking forward to that.
Post by: revier on July 24, 2010, 08:08:10 pm
I am a human of the female persuasion, but I often take advantage of "no girls on the internet" syndrome and allow people to assume I'm male. If you claim otherwise, one of two things tends to happen:
1) "Wow, really? And you like the same games as me? Pics please?" Which can devolve into "You're not REALLY a girl unless you send me timestamped pictures of your breasts, WHY WON'T YOU?"
2) "Go away, we don't need any attention whores here."
I'm not a woman to get attention, I play games because I like playing games, not because I want in your pants. The same is true for most girl gamers I know. The ones who want in your pants aren't usually that interested in the game itself - they're playing a whole different game. There's a few ways to avoid this.
1) Don't admit to being female. Ever. Even if the topic comes up, if you don't know the people you're playing with, let them think you're a guy. Does not work in real life, or anything that requires you to talk over a headset.
2) Only play games no one is "surprised" to find girls playing.
3) Attempt to politely deal with and correct people's assumptions about you.
Most of the girl gamers my age (late teens/early twenties) that I know use strategy number one. It's like a general internet safety rule - you can do whatever you like, as long as they think you're a guy.
Most of the older girl gamers I know use strategy two. Or maybe they actually just only like "girly" games, I haven't conducted any research on the topic.
Strategy three is probably the best one in terms of helping get rid of the problem, but it's a lot of work when I just wanted to play games, not engage in feminist debate.
Anyhow, I suppose my response to OP is, no, you don't have to know. There've been times, I guarantee it, where you DIDN'T know. And if you hang out where I hang out, it'll happen again.
That said, most of the Bay12ers seem to be pretty reasonable people, so I don't mind "decloaking" to add my two cents.
Post by: Aqizzar on July 24, 2010, 08:15:53 pm
2) Only play games no one is "surprised" to find girls playing.
Most of the older girl gamers I know use strategy two. Or maybe they actually just only like "girly" games, I haven't conducted any research on the topic.
As long as you're here to ask, what sort of games count in that category anyway? Any other trends to note? I and most guys don't really have any perspective on that.
Post by: Cthulhu on July 24, 2010, 08:26:45 pm
More to the point, what does that say about DF? I know I'm a guy, as far as I know you could all be girls. So which one of you destroyed the locker full of blood samples?
Post by: Nikov on July 25, 2010, 03:00:35 am
Post by: Jackrabbit on July 25, 2010, 06:12:32 am
Post by: Beeskee on July 25, 2010, 09:53:58 am
The irony of it all is that rather than make themselves look like complete jerk-offs, I've seen guys in situations such as this be praised for their manliness.
I've seen that too. The end result is, until a community is PROVEN safe, most women online prefer to keep their gender a secret. Which leaves everyone with the impression that their community is primarily male.
Post by: Muz on July 25, 2010, 10:03:32 am
My sister is an example of a very hardcore gamer. She powergames the hell out of a lot of games, up to the point where they're no longer fun. She exploited Fable to get a maxed out character in the red and yellow XP. She accomplished all the objectives in The Sims 2 and 3, and even Unreal World. She's even makes this annoyingly physically invincible horde with Ulm in Dominions 2 and 3.
My girlfriend is a very casual gamer, who only plays for fun, and because I tell her that girl gamers are hot. She's also an environmental engineer.. so there goes that theory that girls don't become gamers for the same reason they don't become engineers :P
Both these two people don't call themselves gamers. Neither hang out on gamer forums. My sister likes to do her attention whoring IRL, she only checks out gamer forums for bug fixes and mods. If anything, I think the only reason you don't see female gamers is because a lot of guys get very annoying when they see a woman. It's not really a great social group to hang out with and chill.
On a different note, know what pisses me off? When someone acts like a prick to a female gamer, and then someone else says "dude, don't be such an asshole" and is branded a white knight and is suddenly a loser.
Context. I actually hate when people play the white knight. I'd fight for a woman's rights to play a game without being harrassed. But when I joke about saying "there are no wimminz on the internet", you're going to branded a loser if you give me a 10 minute lecture about it, calling me an asshole. But if you reply, saying "be nice to her", there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't be an asshole about calling other people an asshole and you should be fine.
I'm certainly not sexist, and that's why I'd joke about being sexist just the same way I'd be racist against elves... you don't expect anyone to take to take it seriously, unless that person has ulterior motives. If the girl gets defensive about it, I'd apologize. If you step in front of her and get defensive, you make it look like you're showing off.
Post by: Cthulhu on July 25, 2010, 01:18:22 pm
It wasn't even out of context either, everyone was quoting it.
Post by: Jackrabbit on July 25, 2010, 02:46:26 pm
On a different note, know what pisses me off? When someone acts like a prick to a female gamer, and then someone else says "dude, don't be such an asshole" and is branded a white knight and is suddenly a loser.
Context. I actually hate when people play the white knight. I'd fight for a woman's rights to play a game without being harrassed. But when I joke about saying "there are no wimminz on the internet", you're going to branded a loser if you give me a 10 minute lecture about it, calling me an asshole. But if you reply, saying "be nice to her", there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't be an asshole about calling other people an asshole and you should be fine.
That's basically what I mean. Joking that there are no women on the internet is fine, saying "lol show me your boobs" or "make me a sandwich" is being an asshole and you shouldn't be in the wrong for calling someone out on it, so long as you don't go over the top, get creepy or something similar. But yeah, context is important.
Post by: Cotes on July 25, 2010, 03:21:56 pm
Indeed. And I'm pretty sure that most of us who would step into to call those idiots asshole would do the same if they were harrassing someone because of ethnicity or sexual orientation.On a different note, know what pisses me off? When someone acts like a prick to a female gamer, and then someone else says "dude, don't be such an asshole" and is branded a white knight and is suddenly a loser.
Context. I actually hate when people play the white knight. I'd fight for a woman's rights to play a game without being harrassed. But when I joke about saying "there are no wimminz on the internet", you're going to branded a loser if you give me a 10 minute lecture about it, calling me an asshole. But if you reply, saying "be nice to her", there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't be an asshole about calling other people an asshole and you should be fine.
That's basically what I mean. Joking that there are no women on the internet is fine, saying "lol show me your boobs" or "make me a sandwich" is being an asshole and you shouldn't be in the wrong for calling someone out on it, so long as you don't go over the top, get creepy or something similar. But yeah, context is important.
Actually, I'd probably find it easier to do the latter, exactly because the whole white knighting thing. I mean, it's one thing being ragged on by the idiots afterwards, but when there's the chance that the person you were defending turns around and starts to call you out on sexism I'm that much more likely to just keep my mouth shut.
Post by: DeKaFu on July 25, 2010, 05:06:16 pm
Making it easier for people to assume I'm male is just a positive side effect.
Post by: Jackrabbit on July 25, 2010, 05:10:28 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on July 25, 2010, 05:30:49 pm
I don't though, I play male characters.
The problem with leaping to a woman's defense is that then you have to leap to everyone's defense or you look just as sexist as the guys you're against. Unless it's getting seriously disruptive and offensive or the person being attacked is one of your bros (The only time I've ever intervened in a white knight-ish way was in WoW when someone called my friend/guildmaster a "silly cunt." He called me a white knight, but everyone was rebuking him at that point so it wasn't a big deal) you should probably avoid getting involved. If you have to get involved, it's probably better to just quietly and calmly hit the report button.
It can be hard to be a girl in a place where 90% of the websites are degrading pornography, but they're not damsels in distress. They can handle themselves, and if one can't white knighting or similar responses are rarely the right way to handle the situation.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on July 25, 2010, 06:42:42 pm
I was once forced to try and verbally smack the stupid out of one of my friends, who was alienating our entire online group through afformentioned behavior towards a girl he had met online and became infatuated in. He did his best to try and intigrate her into our group, but this was not a good idea. She was unstable at best and an evil, manipulitive individual at worst. The situation was resolved with their eventual breakup, but things got very down to the wire near the end of it.
Post by: Jackrabbit on July 28, 2010, 01:48:30 am
You'd think that'd be obvious but it never seems to be.
Post by: ToonyMan on July 28, 2010, 02:36:54 am
Post by: Chaoswizkid on July 28, 2010, 03:47:53 am
Everyone in the 40 man voice chat went deathly silent. After a few tense moments, someone spoke: "Was that a girl?"
A few moments later, "What's a 'girl'?"
I'm not sure the the latter fellow was either hilariously clever or if I should lose more faith in humanity...
Post by: ToonyMan on July 28, 2010, 03:49:20 am
Post by: Chaoswizkid on July 28, 2010, 04:01:52 am
Post by: Muz on July 28, 2010, 05:15:07 am
I think more women playing a game would rather add a nice layer of diversity. It's a shame that although there's so many bored women on computers, there's not more of them on the same games as us.
Post by: Cthulhu on July 28, 2010, 07:53:25 am
This thread reminds me of a time when I was talking to an online friend of mine, a gamer girl, who was talking about a 40-man raid in WoW her guild was doing, and had everyone in the guild on a teamspeak voicechat while they were doing it. There was a ton of chatter, but the leader of the guild was trying to explain strategy, when my friend asked a question about the strategy.
Everyone in the 40 man voice chat went deathly silent. After a few tense moments, someone spoke: "Was that a girl?"
A few moments later, "What's a 'girl'?"
I'm not sure the the latter fellow was either hilariously clever or if I should lose more faith in humanity...
It doesn't sound like a joke, I'm sure that guy has never heard of girls before.
Post by: RedKing on July 28, 2010, 08:38:19 am
That is a sad statistic. We gamers are bad people if the only girls who are willing to play with us will only do so disguised.
You say this as if it's a revelation. I rarely play *anything* online, because the vast majority of online gamers appear to be complete fucktards (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/). I've played some MMO stuff with a small group of RL friends, but that's it. Virtually any guild I've ever tried has been full of people who I'd prefer to inflict bodily harm upon rather than play with.
Post by: Satarus on August 03, 2010, 12:40:29 pm