Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: AngleWyrm on August 07, 2010, 06:11:48 pm
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This is a what-if scenario.
The starting seven embark, and the Planter hires the Miners to dig out a farming area. The miners declare their services to be worth one beer/tile. The farmer draws up 300 beers' worth of Bonds -- IOUs for crop that will be good come mid-Limestone, when the harvest is ready. The miners divvy up the bonds according to who did the most work. The miners have become rich and the farmer is in debt to them.
The leader brought all the food and drink, and as such he is willing to sell it at steep monopoly prices. He gouges the miners for five bonds/drink, and they hand over the bonds because no one else has alcohol. The leader has become the wealthiest among the clan.
Then mid-Limestone arrives. The leader takes his hoard of crop bonds and cashes them in for crop, to sell to the brewer who will quickly take over the booze market. Meanwhile, the miners are trading crop bonds for booze directly, because the brewer can cash them in for what he needs.
Seem like fun?
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Interesting analysis, but no. Doesn't sound like fun to me.
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Sounds like a very roundabout way to avoid talking about currency.
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Once the crop has matured, the Planter buys back his bonds from the Miners, the Leader, and the Brewer by giving them the promised crops in return for the bonds.
The Planter soon discovers that he has a surplus of crop to sell, and will continue to have goods to trade into the market. So he prints up Green Stamps, which are redeemable for one crop each, and prints enough to cover his current crop. His plan is to sell the green stamps into circulation in trade for the things he needs (food and drink). The brewer accepts the green stamps, because he can cash them in as needed to continue brewing. And the cook also accepts green stamps for the same reason.
The miners don't need green stamps, but since the green stamps can be traded to the brewer and the cook for food and drink, the miners will accept them as payment for mining jobs. So the Brewer and the Cook -- and the Doctor whose planning a hospital expansion -- can pay the miners in green stamps in trade for a digging job.
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It sounds like a really, really complicated way of saying "Oh look, it's money."
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Is there a point to this?
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Notice that the circulated currency did not come from the top as a government-minted legal tender -- a source of much mischief. No authority was invoked, nor was it forced on the market.
Instead, it came from producers of goods and services, exchanging their wares in the market place. Just keeping promises.
Another reason for this post is that the current "economy" system (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/40d:Dwarven_economy) of paying rent is weak sauce. It lacks the one thing that places Dwarf Fortress head and shoulders above the competition: Detail.
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With no disrespect for your idea, the economy is one of my least favorite features in the game. I'd much rather keep it simple so I can focus more on the important tasks of elf killing, and having fun with gobbos.
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Notice that the circulated currency did not come from the top as a government-minted legal tender -- a source of much mischief. No authority was invoked, nor was it forced on the market.
Instead, it came from producers of goods and services, exchanging their wares in the market place. Just keeping promises.
Another reason for this post is that the current "economy" system (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/40d:Dwarven_economy) of paying rent is weak sauce. It lacks the one thing that places Dwarf Fortress head and shoulders above the competition: Detail.
One currency makes the trading in the marketplace run more smoothly, not less. That's why people use it, even though noone is actually forced to. The quality and amount of different goods makes a unified payment option preferable, instead of sitting on hundreds of different kinds of bonds/stamps, none of which may do what you want.
As a game mechanic, different stamps/bonds become even more complicated to program. It MIGHT make some sense, if guilds are involved to secure each bond/stamp.
An easy supply and demand scheme would be the simplest way to go about things, in my opinion. One dwarf earns a set amount of money depending on the quality of his work (in DF, any other dwarf can do any job, so quality is the only possible reason to paying extra). One dwarf then consumes products, according to his own wealth, the market supply, and his own personal preferences. If there are very few items, prices go up. If there are a lot of items, prices are cheap. If the dwarf is poor, he will pursue the cheaper products (lower quality). If he's rich, he will pursue the more costly products (higher quality). If he loves slumming in the dormitory while drinking sunshine and feasting on demon roasted mandible eye tentacles, then let him. Even if he didn't have a stamp for that.
Edit: Bonus: Manager screen now could now allow us to set prefered quality of ordered items (high, medium, low, nonexsistant (or even better still, aim for an item quality (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Item_quality)). A poor dwarf not doing anything could do any of these jobs, assuming he has the required skill, even though he doesn't actually have the labor acticated.
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Notice that the circulated currency did not come from the top as a government-minted legal tender -- a source of much mischief. No authority was invoked, nor was it forced on the market.
Instead, it came from producers of goods and services, exchanging their wares in the market place. Just keeping promises.
Actually the first money probably came from traders who would give something of a basic value that could always be traded at them later. This quickly becomes the basic currency and is then adopted by the governement. Origenaly in Europe (probably US aswell but I don't know much about that) you would be paying with pieces if gold(which were actually valuable). Banks would keep these pieces of gold in storage and you would get a piece of paper that allowed you to collect the gold. Eventually these pieces started to get traded. Until their relationship with gold was removed so that banks don't have to keep tonnes of gold laying around for no apperent reason.
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which is why the dollar bills we carry around are completely worthless... untill the exhange for gold comes back...
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Your dollar bills are worth what you can buy for them. They're only worthless if you can't buy anything. The central bank now works to guarantee a steady price (low inflation) instead of guaranteeing gold.
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I cant wait until the economy gets an overhaul. The idea of tinkering with interest rates and currency circulation and monetary policy makes me a very happy blood god.
I understand why some people would hate it passionately though.
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I cant wait until the economy gets an overhaul. The idea of tinkering with interest rates and currency circulation and monetary policy makes me a very happy blood god.
I understand why some people would hate it passionately though.
You are a very disturbed and worrying young blood god. We seek simple lives of spike traps, killing pits and crushing stone and here you are daring to utter phrases like interest rates and fiscal policy in our terrified maws
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I think that if the economy is going to be greatly overhauled, it needs to be done after Dwarf Fortress allows for greater links with the in-game world outside our fortresses i.e. through a more detailed and more useful trading system, the ability to use our military to attack places, etc. I also don't think that actual coins should be in-game, as they seem to cause the problem with lag and such; I think a better system would be to have each Dwarf carry around a purse with an assigned value to it of how much is in it, and their purchases, rent, taxes etc. ought to be deducted from that purse amount.
It seems kind of pointless to have coins and taxes (and by extention, inflation and exchange rates, etc. in a more complicated system) for the moment when our fortresses are, by and large, closed loop systems.
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While more conection with the outside worlds would be nice it's also important to remember that the average city only had little connections with the outside world futher away than the farms providing it's food. So they were largly closed systems.
What I think we really need is a system that makes dwarfs demand more money if they have more wealth. "I'm not going to work for 1 dwarfbuck a month if I can enjoy my legendary meal in my legendary dinning room after which I can go to my legendary bedroom!"
Combining this with some way by which the amout of money a fort has (money is really only worth something because we all know it's standing for something more then a little piece of paper or coin). Perhaps saying that the value of a dwarfbuck is relative to the total value of the fort/the amout of dwarfbucks in excistance. Ofcourse we would need a way to stop players from making a single dwarfbuck and buying out an entire caravan with it. Then the next year making 2 dwarfsbucks and buying the caravan again. As this would be a huge exploid. Perhaps making the caravans not accept coins or having them trade with individual dwarfs and not with your fort itself.
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Of course, it's also true that bigger cities had much more connection with the outside world; while that's definitely true of a newly-founded outpost, a fully-developed Mountainhome would be a huge nexus of trade attracting far more than the four caravans per year we currently get (of course, we'll also need more goods in order to make more caravans useful).
That being said, ultimately money will only work if it actually plays a role in production. Shortages of currency should slow production (due to a switch to barter or alternative methods of payment) whereas having too many coins will drive inflation, forcing up the prices of goods and services and affecting wages, and in turn purchasing power. This is going to add a twist to trade; no longer would you be able to dump large quantities of goods for trade or offerings without making up for it through minting coins or withdrawing them from circulation to balance the money supply.
It would be complex to implement, but could be made much easier by simply having the tax collector or whomever estimate the number of coins that need to be minted or withdrawn from circulation and report it through the status screen.
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I currently have 80 gold bars and 30 platinum, plus my gem horde, I think this would play merry hell with any sort of economics you throw at it
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Why? Because you can mint coins?
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Indeed, if I knock out 3 batches of gold coins and then 40 2 years later inflation may be an issue ;).
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Only if gold coins are the only currency. Basically, it would tilt the market in favor of those who have savings that aren't in gold coins, and in favor of those who have borrowed gold coins earlier.
But in an island economy, a limited inflation isn't by default a bad thing. It redistributes the wealth, if you want it to (give to those you choose). Or it doesn't, if you don't want it to (give to those who already had gold coins, or keep all the coins for yourself).
Currency adds another level of difficulty when it comes to creating an economy. Who creates the currency? How is it maintained? Is it secure? Is it unstable?
The way I see it, all these are non-issues until you become the MountainHome. Logically, you wouldn't have to deal with currencies at all, or if you did, it would be a local currency that could be substituted for "real" worth. Again, minting new coins would only serve to alter the value of the coin itself, not necessarily all the goods related to it.
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Your dollar bills are worth what you can buy for them. They're only worthless if you can't buy anything. The central bank now works to guarantee a steady price (low inflation) instead of guaranteeing gold.
Actually, dollar bills or euro bills aren't worth anything other than the paper they're on. Fact is, we think they have value, and everyone else thinks they have value, so they are used as if they have value.
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Wasn't that what I said? :P
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For any type of money to work, the minter has to have a product/service that they will buy back the money with. Then the money is a stand-in for that product/service. He who would print and sell money in exchange for something must be willing also to trade something in exchange for his coin. So that the coin represents a voucher from the mint for something the people want.
Maybe the player's minted coin counts as the Leader's coin for his services -- which ain't much. He listens to people bi*ch all day long, and maybe charges for it. "I'll listen to your complaints for a fee." Then he could say one minted coin has a value of one therapy session. People could accept and trade that, but the problem is that it's not a high volume need for the people. So it wouldn't work very well as a substitute commodity.
Another approach might be to assign who is the minter of coin, and what they promise in return for their coin. Maybe the brewer mints coin in exchange for beers. Or the Carpenter mints coin in exchange for barrels. It should be a common high-demand commodity to make the currency useable by everyone.
Or maybe the governing authority (leader) declares ownership of a base commodity, such as crops. He then pays the farmers in coin, representing one crop each. The farmers can buy crops for their own consumption, or sell the coin to others who might want crops.
Government ownership would let the player mint any amount of coin, but could be in trouble if the dwarves decided to come collect and there wasn't enough crop to cover the coin. Upset dwarves begin a tantrum spiral from inadequately capitalized coin :) Maybe they start trading the coin at a lesser value (3 coins/ 2 crops or some such) because that's all the total currency is worth, compared to the total crop available. And voila, we have modelled inflation due to a greedy leader printing up too much currency.
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The way I see DF running currently, the government owns everything and controls everything. Dwarves are effectively labour-machines, who are only paid when they labour. Everything they produce, the government owns. If dwarves want to own anything, they need to labour for salary, and then purchase items from the government. These items include food and clothing. Rooms are only rented.
Shops are merely retailers.
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For any type of money to work, the minter has to have a product/service that they will buy back the money with. Then the money is a stand-in for that product/service. He who would print and sell money in exchange for something must be willing also to trade something in exchange for his coin. So that the coin represents a voucher from the mint for something the people want.
Maybe the player's minted coin counts as the Leader's coin for his services -- which ain't much. He listens to people bi*ch all day long, and maybe charges for it. "I'll listen to your complaints for a fee." Then he could say one minted coin has a value of one therapy session. People could accept and trade that, but the problem is that it's not a high volume need for the people. So it wouldn't work very well as a substitute commodity.
Another approach might be to assign who is the minter of coin, and what they promise in return for their coin. Maybe the brewer mints coin in exchange for beers. Or the Carpenter mints coin in exchange for barrels. It should be a common high-demand commodity to make the currency useable by everyone.
Or maybe the governing authority (leader) declares ownership of a base commodity, such as crops. He then pays the farmers in coin, representing one crop each. The farmers can buy crops for their own consumption, or sell the coin to others who might want crops.
Government ownership would let the player mint any amount of coin, but could be in trouble if the dwarves decided to come collect and there wasn't enough crop to cover the coin. Upset dwarves begin a tantrum spiral from inadequately capitalized coin :) Maybe they start trading the coin at a lesser value (3 coins/ 2 crops or some such) because that's all the total currency is worth, compared to the total crop available. And voila, we have modelled inflation due to a greedy leader printing up too much currency.
Actualy, for gold coins they back themselves. The only time you need backing for currency is when the stuff the currency itself is made of has little value, IE paper. A gold coin that weighs 1 ounce is worth one ounce of gold, same goes for platinum coins, silver coins, bronze coins. It was the system used durinng the middle ages. Now, inflation occurs in that system because if alot of coins are made of a certain material, that material becomes more readily accesible and therefore demand drops. Realy, you don't need a huge horde of gold to back the coins, you just need a huge horde of gold to make more currrency when the need arrises.
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In theory a precious metal coin is also the product. But when people started melting the US pennies down to use them for their copper, the government responded by stripping the copper out of the pennies.
The US Dollar was originally defined in the 1792 Coinage Act of US Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_Act_of_1792) as being 371.25 grains of silver.
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Perhaps we should move this to another forum part.
Anyway perhaps we should start by choosing what a good dwarven economy needs to be able to do.
1 Simulate money for all your dwarfs.
2 Doesn't make a fort that's able to support legendary for all have to go back to rooms as cheap as passble.
3 Is able to trade with caravans.
4 Doesn't make your dwarfs spent more time hauling their money then working.
5 Has "depth/complexity" like the rest of the fort.
6 Shows dwarven greed it's what they are known for!
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Technically, though, gold coins and fiat currency are the same in the sense that their inherent value is the item itself; gold is only valuable because it's limited in supply, and if we increased the supply of gold we'd also increase inflation. This is exactly what happened to Spain during the 15th and 16th centuries; so much gold and silver flowed in to the country from their colonies that it triggered massive inflation.
I'm not sure how it would work in DF but it would add a strategic side to mining; rather than simply dig out veins of gold/silver/copper, it may be more productive not to do so in order to keep the economy balanced.
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Inflation of precious metals would be quite low because they would be wanted by all civs so that inflation only really kicks in if either there are very little intelgent creatures left or if you mine enormous amouts.
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Also, another big thing here would be implementing a true tax system for the player as well as upkeep costs; right now, pretty much everything lasts indefinitely and can be used by an infinite number of dwarves without consequence. If we include upkeep costs to reflect maintaining the fort as well as a tax/revenue system to pay for it (as well as finance the cost of new work orders), it would offset the problem of a massively wealthy fort being able to provide massively luxurious accommodations across the board because the cost of doing so would exceed the revenues produced by dwarves' labors.
Of course, this still has to involve a way to ensure there are labors for dwarves to do, but now without too much/too little autonomy. This is complex, to say the least...
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Inflation of precious metals would be quite low because they would be wanted by all civs so that inflation only really kicks in if either there are very little intelgent creatures left or if you mine enormous amouts.
That's the thing. Some embarks have huge amounts of gold/silver/copper available, more than enough to induce inflation (especially with features for "retiring" forts to civilization management and the real-world trade network).
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However dwarfs are known to try and gather huge amouts of tressure that's one big amout of demand for gold/silver/platina. So that should keep the prices quite high.
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What if Urist McAssassination took many nobles off to a long vacation and claimed their goods?
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What if Urist McAssassination took many nobles off to a long vacation and claimed their goods?
Urist Mcassasination would probably be rich.
Which brings up another point: it might be good to make noble posisions earn a lot of money and making them buyable.
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Meh, why have money at all? All dwarves work for the common good--I dont need to pay them. The carpenter makes sweet beds for everyone, the miners carve sizable rooms to put them in, engravers makes them nice an smooth, haulers put the beds in place, the farmers grow food for everyone, cooks make them taste good and brewers make booze for everyone.
Its a good system and it works. I dont want to muck it up by having shortages because a few dwarves refuse to work because they arent getting enough shiny coins they never needed.
In this game all dwarves act harmoniously in a commune type fort and then all of a sudden they switch to a greed based fort.
Currency is for hummies.
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And on that note: Dwarven Minimum Wage
If dwarves consume 8-9 food/yr and 18 drink/yr, that's about 27 crops/yr per dwarf. And if a single crop goes for about 4 dwarfbucks each (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Crop), then minimum wage is 108db/yr per dwarf; about $2/week.
Assuming a single level-5 farmer creates stacks of five crops in each tile, and a minimum of one batch/season, then each tile generates 20 crop/year with that farmer. So since a dwarf needs 27 crops/year, it takes a little over 1 tile/dwarf to feed/booze up the general populace. As the farmer's skill grows, it approaches 1 tile/dwarf, but as new less skilled farmers are added, it heads the other way.
Basically, 200 tiles is eight 5x5 fields. If handled by quality farmers, that's all the farming necessary to support a fort.
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A randroid, twisted into the shape of a human, has come. Beware his tedious haranguing!
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A randroid, twisted into the shape of a human, has come. Beware his tedious haranguing!
Is a dwarf not entitled to the sweat of his brow?
A place where the artist need not fear the censor for engraving skinless demons in the dining room, where the fell mood is not bound by petty tantrums, where the legendary would not be constrained by the dabbling.
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...Banks would keep these pieces of gold in storage and you would get a piece of paper that allowed you to collect the gold. Eventually these pieces started to get traded. Until their relationship with gold was removed so that banks don't have to keep tonnes of gold laying around for no apperent reason.
Yeah, about that: Where did the gold go?
Short answer: Out of the posession of the general public, and into the posession of the government.