Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: thijser on August 11, 2010, 01:04:21 pm
-
Currently tempreture is only beeing used for burning and melting. However this is done at the cost of a lot of fps. I think that since we have this great system we should use it.
1 Tempreture affecting eveporation. It's quite simple if the tempreture is very low then eveporation is almost non existend while if the tempreture is high then water will only last very short. This could replace the currend setting of eveporation to only affect 1/7. Magma could be affected in reverse with low tempretures making it dissapear while high tempretures will make it last longer.
2 Plant growth this could even be a start of the addition of a few new types of seed. Some plants might grow better at high tempretures and I think this should be reflexted by the harvest. It might even lead to some funny mechanisms to increase harvest with magma.
3 Having heat affect healing. If a wound gets to cold or to hot it affects the speed of healing.
4 A hot area should affect how much a dwarf needs to drink because of how much the sweat. This would mean that a dwarf working with magma in a desert would need huge amouts of liquid. In addition very cold conditions would make more food needed in order to compensate for the energy lost in keeping warm.
5 happy/unhappy thoughs from very cold or very hot areas because it's not very pleasant.
6 Actually calculating tempreture for the whole map and using it to freeze/thaw the ice.
-
Bad topic don't move yourself around.
-
Odd. Usually it takes at least five pages of posts before a thread becomes sentient.
But yeah, temperature has far too few functions at the moment. To be precise, it really doesn't matter until you dip something in magma.
-
Or until you make a world with a much higher than normal maximum temperature. :) At least in 40d, I made one like that http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-6073-fleshchamber. Had my wagon and most of it's supplies except for metal items burst into flames, managed to save a small bunch of plump helmets from the fire, which let me survive. Cut down on the number of migrants, since anyone who showed up wearing leather, had it burst into flames and died, although the others were able to make it inside before being damaged. I had to be careful about building things outside, or chopping down trees, or even picking anything up to make sure that my dwarves didn't spend too much time outside in any one stretch, or they'd suffer damage to their whole body, burns, heatstroke, etc. Any dwarf, or other creature, that spent too long outside would get more and more damaged, and eventually die, and have their corpse burst into flames.
Caravans had a tendency to burst into flames though, and start off grass fires, although I could pick through the wreckage after for anything that was metal. One time a caravan showed up, and was on fire briefly, but then it started raining, and they got put out (The rain was also nice in that when it hit a pool, it would just leave a small expanding cloud of steam, in fact, any water which came into contact with sunlight immediately burst into steam). Unfortunately, that didn't save them, once they started unloading their supplies they and 4 of my dwarves were all killed by an expanding cloud of !!boiling sweet pod vapor!!
But yeah, anything where temperature has more of an effect is good. Although some things need some work in the current version, going from nothing happening to having your fat melt away doesn't work out very well, while at the same time, magma doesn't burn like it used to. Some sort of temperature display or overlay to see what the temperature is at a certain location might be nice too, as there's currently nothing to really see what it is in a fortress. Also, temperature only seems to matter on the surface, and near magma, underground doesn't seem to be affected by it much, as it is now.
-
Magma heated grow-rooms for special strains of Hobbit leaf? Nice! :D
Also super-hot worlds sound awesome! :D
-
I'm just gonna saw I agree with you on pretty much everything. If were losing the fps already may as well. Also I'd love a plant that only grows beside magma. That would be awesome.
-
As plants clearly attract most attention it sounds like a good idea to start thinking up some plants that might do well in certain tempretures ranges.
It is quite likely that a lot of plants will have to be traded. And it might be better if we get rid of the seasons thing and replace it by tempreture only (you can still select what plant grows when). This would mean that if I want to grow pig tail all year round I can do that.
Now some plants:
Magma root: A plant that need extreme heat produces a very high quility food.
Snowbery: A plant that only grow in very cold areas producies snowberies a medium quility food and usable for white dye. Can be made brew into evercold spirit
Cave grass:Plant that grows in almost all conditions. Can be milled to make a very low quility food and can be used for low quality fibers. Can be brewed into a low value quality drink: mud brew.
Bat leaf: A black leafed plant that does best in medium tempreture caves, used to make black dye.
Caveman wheat: A wheat that grows in slightly high tempreture caves, Can be milled to make a high quality and high amout of food. It can be brewed into cave beer a low quality drink
Heatbite: A rare plant which produces a small amout of heat lives in very high tempreture areas, Can be made into poison when it's implented.
Lead berries: Plant that grows in low tempreture areas can be used to make dye.
I think we could add some more.
-
As plants clearly attract most attention it sounds like a good idea to start thinking up some plants that might do well in certain tempretures ranges.
It is quite likely that a lot of plants will have to be traded. And it might be better if we get rid of the seasons thing and replace it by tempreture only (you can still select what plant grows when). This would mean that if I want to grow pig tail all year round I can do that.
Now some plants:
Magma root: A plant that need extreme heat produces a very high quility food.
Snowbery: A plant that only grow in very cold areas producies snowberies a medium quility food and usable for white dye.
Cave grass:Plant that grows in almost all conditions. Can be milled to make a very low quility food and can be used for low quility fibers.
Bat leaf: A black leafed plant that does best in medium tempreture caves, used to make black dye.
Caveman wheat: A wheat that grows in slightly high tempreture caves, Can be milled to make a high quility and high amout of food.
Heatbite: A rare plant which produces a small amout of heat lives in very high tempreture areas, Can be made into poison when it's implented.
Lead berries: Plant that grows in low tempreture areas can be used to make dye.
You should think about what alcohols those make aswell. Like evercold wine or something for snowbery. Which would be nearly as good as sunshine, cause everybody likes their alcohol cold. And something equally as valuable for magma root because it would take a bit of work to get so the value should reflect that effort. Though maybe it would make dwarfs more happy to eat it then to drink it, cause of its properties.
-
I added some drinks that I though made some sense but we might have to add a few more plants.
Perhaps we should also add some above ground plants anybody got some creative plants?
-
Lavaroot is a must have.
-
Or until you make a world with a much higher than normal maximum temperature. :)
Dude, that was epic.
-
It's probably a good idea to add an option to see tempreture aswell.
-
I would like to see tiles to have a temperature like the ones you have in the embark and biomes (Scorching, Hot, Warm, Temperate, Cold, Freezing). Tiles already have Outside/Inside, Light/Dark, Above Ground/Subterranean. We could have toggles for temp changes like any workshop using fuel radiating +1 heat in a 4 square radius from it's center (like noise) or magma that radiate +2 heat in a 8 tile radius (might even be easier to find magma with this concept). The general temperature of tiles might depend on the temperature at embark with more temperate for subterrenean. (so if you embark in a hot desert, your subterrenean tiles will be warm; or if embarking in freezing tundras, having cold tiles)
I like the idea of dwarves drinking more because of heat. Having metalsmiths and furnace operators drinking more, or magma smelters causing alot of thirst (the price to pay for free fuel) could be a nice addition.
Weather could be assigned this way also. During winter or when it rains, decrease the above ground temp to -1; when you have a snowstorm, decrease it to -2. Crops could also be dependent on the weather and have a "preferred temperature". Biome temp could affect the way you gow your crops, and having varying crop growth could be nice. You might have crops that grow in the cold, but not in freezing temp, so when you have a snowstorm, you lose your crops. Or have a specially hot summer that creates drought (+1 or +2 heat) that kills your crops. Creatures and vermins could also be affected by this too.
Heck, we could even make Ice mining usefull. Imagine a block of ice generating cold vapors like miasma, and at every tile the cold vapor hits, it decreases the tile temp by one (a max decrease to cold, never freezing). Ice could have a "rot" attribute, depending on a static amount of time or the amount of cold vapor it generated. If you don't have ice in your embark, you could trade it. (I know some of you might think that ice trading is unrealistic and ice would melt before it's destination, but the Wenham Lake Ice Company (based in Massachusetts, USA) exported ice to England in 1844, with nothing but sailships! People even exported ice to Jamaica and India! Ice even lasted long enough to cross half the globe and reach hot regions of the world.)
Now imagine creating a cold storage chamber. Placing your blocks of ice inside a nicely enclosed room with cold tiles to preserve your food longer, while struggling to keep the cold vapors inside while doors open/close (to keep ice blocks life longer, constantly having a cold vapor hovering it could decrease its rot, including food). Make your doors pet-passable or not and having vermins preferring cold could be a nice challenge.
These are ideas that could be "cool"... excuse the pun it was too easy.
-
If you want to talk about modelling plants, it's probably best to put it in the Improved Farming thread, rather than in a generically titled "temperature" thread.
I did mention using temperature in the farming thread, rather than season, but generally just went with using biomes and seasons because that's much easier for the player to see than temperature, which is essentially invisible to the player, barring some sort of mechanic for a seasonal mean temperature chart at embark...
Also, be aware that underground crops wouldn't be seasonal at all if based upon temperature - temperature underground is unaffected by Sun or Season. Thanks to thermal inertia, the major factors in ground temperature are geothermal activity (or in DF terms, "How close is the nearest magma?"), and, only when near the surface, the direction of ocean currents (when near the sea) or the latitude of the land.
-
It's more about plants and seasons. Yes, I talked about it because temperature has implications with faming in my idea, but it's not the main thing/concept. Having tiles with varying heat also means having dwarves drink more because of fuel-using workshops generating heat. Did you read the section about cold storage rooms and blocks of ice expelling cold vapors? I would love cold storage options as a food stockpile. I just think having a Heat value to tiles could expand the game in more ways than one, and I've shared only what I could think of. I'm sure there's a lot more to be added/exploited from this.
I do agree with you with using biomes and seasons, but just affix a Heat value to it, and make it changeable depending on weather/factors. It should only affect wide areas (a.k.a. biomes), and not meticulously calculated on a per-tile basis (like water), for weather anyway. Currently I have a fort that's between temperate and warm. I can see ponds freezing/snow and right next to it no freezing/snow, right in the middle of my fort above it. Knowing the Heat value (with variance) of a tile could be a nice addition.
And I also think that subterrenean crops should grow all year long (since they are mostly unaffected by external factors anyways) and surface crops with varying seasons, the inverse of what's happening right now (I think it's silly that I should grow stuff during winter). Subterennean crops should be cheap and shouldn't give happy thoughts in any way (except when cooked), as only the above-ground crop should be considered "delicacies" for dwarves, but that's my opinion. This is a discussion for the farming thread though, so I'll end here.
These are just ideas that I'm throwing out there for discussion; it's all a bunch of maybes and why-nots. If I think it's worth its own thread, I'll make one eventually... Btw, I appreciate the input. Thank you!
Edit: Spelling
-
Rather than making it its own thread, I'd rather you consolidate it into the existing threads - there's a major debate over how to do this sort of thing in Improved Farming already, and it just becomes more confusing if you have to read a dozen different threads to keep up with everything.
-
I like most of the ideas here, but keep in mind that temperature is an expensive feature that some people leave turned off. If a few game play and game balance elements are based off of temperature, I think that would be fine. But major elements reliant on temperature might not be so hot for those with slower computers or larger forts.
That said, it may just be that nothing really uses temperature right now, so Toady never bothered to optimize it.
-
Medical
cold - less chance of infection as bacteria has a hard time surviving in this climate.
Freezing - almost certain no chance of infection as there is little or no bacteria.
hot - more chance of infection, bacteria thriving
Scorching - Well, this can go either way...
The hotter it is the faster the healing rate, while the colder it is the slower the healing rate.
Also, dehydration.
-
In a freezing or scortching climate, an injured dwarf would probably die of exposure, unless they were underground, where the temperature is more regulated.
-
In a freezing or scortching climate, an injured dwarf would probably die of exposure, unless they were underground, where the temperature is more regulated.
That would be part of the challenge of embarking in those locations. I've seen non-freezing tundras and non-scorching deserts. Worldgen settings are very flexible.
-
Medical
cold - less chance of infection as bacteria has a hard time surviving in this climate.
Freezing - almost certain no chance of infection as there is little or no bacteria.
hot - more chance of infection, bacteria thriving
Scorching - Well, this can go either way...
The hotter it is the faster the healing rate, while the colder it is the slower the healing rate.
Also, dehydration.
I think any temperature difference stops infection. Thats why when you get an infection the body part heats up. Bacteria can only multiple at a perfect temperature and your body raises to high for them to continue divide. So temperate should be the worst, but hot might be just as good as cold. While I guess freezing would be the best.
-
Generally speaking, external temperatures are colder than your body, so the hotter the weather, the more infection (as it gradually matches the body temperature), so yeah...
And about freezing, frostbite anyone?
What about clothing? Should dwarves be better clothed because of freezing temperatures? Should they have underwear when armored with metal? Should they wear less in hot weather, and soldiers drink more when wearing a lot of armor?
-
Make 99% of rocks meltable and allow the magma created join with the magma pool,so you dont get 500 bits of magma.
-
Generally speaking, external temperatures are colder than your body, so the hotter the weather, the more infection (as it gradually matches the body temperature), so yeah...
And about freezing, frostbite anyone?
What about clothing? Should dwarves be better clothed because of freezing temperatures? Should they have underwear when armored with metal? Should they wear less in hot weather, and soldiers drink more when wearing a lot of armor?
Yeah but dwarf fort isnt exactly earth. I would assume its possible to have places in the world that are hotter then a dwarfs body temperature, I mean I've seen them run through magma.
-
Well on earth we also have areas where the outside tempreture can get higher then the tempreture inside a human's body. And we need to know the dwarfs body tempreture before we can get this right.
-
Well on earth we also have areas where the outside tempreture can get higher then the tempreture inside a human's body. And we need to know the dwarfs body tempreture before we can get this right.
That's the HOMEOTHERM variable. All warm-blooded creatures have the same value, which roughly correlates to 99 degrees Farenheight. Cold-blooded creatures have 72 degree Farenheight body temperature.
Wiki article with basically everything you need to know: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/40d:Temperature