Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Marsunpaistii on September 11, 2010, 12:47:01 pm
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I just invented an über leet defense system for my fortress, which is really cheap to make and even cheaper if you happen to have a brook / river / stream at hand. I have a 3 tile wide corridor which then splits into four 1x1 corridors which have a pressure plate with floor hatches on both sides of the plate, which are opened by the plate. When an intruder steps on the pressure plate, the hatches open, forcing the intruder to stand still on the plate, then after that a hatch which is also linked on the pressure plate opens above the intruder, dropping water on the intruder, which then pushes him into either one of the two hatches next to the pressure plate. The pressure plate is then deactivated due to water pushing the intruder off the plate, closing the 3 hatches and while the intruder falls into a 15 z-levels deep pit which has grates at the bottom that let the water drop into a cavern below.
= is empty space [To avoid flooding you can replace the empty spaces with grates]
H is a hatch
P is a pressure plate
W is water
w is a wall
Z level 0
w=w
wHw
wPw
wHw
w=w
Z +1
WWW
WHW
WWW
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...or a ten z level fall with green glass menacing spikes below...hooked to a repeater just in case. 8)
But seriously that is a really nice design for a trapped entrance...but why the 3 tile entrance? Just stick with a 1 tile wide entrance that forks twice. And I would use this as the "back door" to my fort so that my dwarves could run in and out of a five tile wide entrance that seals off the moment an enemy is detected.
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OP, no offense but your system is incredibly overcomplicated and likely won't work the way you want it to. Have you actually built this?
Much simpler is to have the single-tile walkway over a large fall and have some weapon traps on it, which force the enemies to dodge and likely to dodge straight off the walkway.
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It's not complicated. I built it from a scratch and I didnt plan it before and it worked well. Also you could just make a 1 tile wide corridor with serrated blade weapon traps in it and no enemy would get in, but what would be the fun in that? The only thing that the defense requires is 3 hatches, a pressure plate, 1 tile wide corridor and water + anything you want the enemies to fall into, maybe a prison or a torturing room?
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The point of his system is the pure low cost of it. you only need mechanisms and hatches (and a water source) for it to work. While weapon traps would be very effective, you need to make a lot of metal or glass components which takes time and resources. (or use stonefalls. but will those lead to dodging off the ledge?)
OP, no offense but your system is incredibly overcomplicated and likely won't work the way you want it to. Have you actually built this?
Hmmmm....you seem to be under the impression that overcomplicated is bad... :P
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The point of his system is the pure low cost of it. you only need mechanisms and hatches (and a water source) for it to work. While weapon traps would be very effective, you need to make a lot of metal or glass components which takes time and resources. (or use stonefalls. but will those lead to dodging off the ledge?)
His system requires a renewable water source directly above the trap points, which requires a lot more time and effort with pumps and power than it does to throw a bunch of wooden training axes into weapon traps.
The point of the traps I mentioned is not to kill the intruder, but to make them dodge and fall off the side. It accomplishes the same thing his system does, making them fall, without water or pumping.
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If you happen to have a brook at hand, you can just make a channel that moves the water wherever you need it. I have my entrance very close to a brook and i just channeled a few tiles to east and then made a huge pool of water with a roof on it so the water doesnt freeze.
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So in that rare case, both systems are equally easy to set up. In one you need a few hatches and mechanisms, in the other you need a few mechanisms and training axes. :)
Regardless of the effectiveness, it is a neat idea washing them down the drain.
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So in that rare case, both systems are equally easy to set up. In one you need a few hatches and mechanisms, in the other you need a few mechanisms and training axes. :)
Regardless of the effectiveness, it is a neat idea washing them down the drain.
But the water one would still be cheaper.
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I am going to try this...with the fall points being on top of ten adamantine menacing spikes 8)...eventually. it will start of with glass or iron or something...
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So in that rare case, both systems are equally easy to set up. In one you need a few hatches and mechanisms, in the other you need a few mechanisms and training axes. :)
Regardless of the effectiveness, it is a neat idea washing them down the drain.
But the water one would still be cheaper.
Cheaper than what? 5 wooden axes and 5 mechanisms? The labor difference is minimal, and the value difference is probably less than you might think.
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Time to test both of these...FOR !!SCIENCE!! (I have decided the pit should be steel spikes, magma safe everything, and flooded with magma. :D)
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I am going to try this...with the fall points being on top of ten adamantine menacing spikes 8)...eventually. it will start of with glass or iron or something...
Also I noticed that when the creature is pushed down, the hatches close before all the water drops out of the area, to fix this, also channel a tile next to the hatches so that it is like this Grate - Hatch - Pressureplate - Hatch - Grate, that way you dont have ugly water lying around, I dunno about you but atleast I care about that (OCD attacks once again)
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i have channels on both sides of the 1x walkway along its entire length. I plan on placing the water drop traps and weapon traps to see which works more effectively...and i want to test my terrible terrible elephants...
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i have channels on both sides of the 1x walkway along its entire length. I plan on placing the water drop traps and weapon traps to see which works more effectively...and i want to test my terrible terrible elephants...
I eagerly await your results. Science!
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i have channels on both sides of the 1x walkway along its entire length. I plan on placing the water drop traps and weapon traps to see which works more effectively...and i want to test my terrible terrible elephants...
I eagerly await your results. Science!
The main difference is that the trap OP suggested is far more stylish and thus dwarfy than a mere trapped gauntlet run.
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Well, my first try failed...now I need to build a fort that actually cares about growing its booze plants...>_> I am thinking 1 woodcutter/carpenter/leader/bookkeeper/broker/manager 2 miners/masons 1 miner/mechanic 2 farmer/brewers 1 farmer/cook as my starting seven. embarking with lots of booze seeds and sand. also my breeding elephants.
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My fortress just got attacked by 3 ambushes at the same time. all the goblins walked into the traps and got slaughtered, tainting the bottom of the pit where the goblinite and corpses end with blood and body parts.
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excellent...I plan on doing a comparative test by using weapon traps to make them fall off and the toilet method.
EDIT: GAH! stupid miners trapped them selves and died of thirst :'( I liked that spot so I will be reclaiming....
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Or make life easy and just route it to an aquifer.
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Why has nobody suggested magma yet?
Seriously, magma.
All unnecessary goblinite is melted away and deposited in the fall area. You no longer need to dig far at all. You no longer need a spike to kill the goblin. It's just... it's just perfect.
z=+1
wwwwwwwww
wHSshwwww
wwwwwwwww
z=0
wHwwwwwww
wPwwmSshw
wHwwwwwww
z=-1
wwwwwwwww
wGwwwwwww
wGwwhsSmw
wGwwwwwww
wdwwwwwww
z=-2
mmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmm
w = wall
H = hatch
S = dark, unpassable pump tile
s = light, passable pump tile
h = channeled tile
m = magma
G = floor grate
d = door
Bottom floor (z-2) is a magma reservoir. Z-1 is a floor grate to catch the goblin's stuff so it doesn't fall into the reservoir. Z-0 is the triggering floor with the hatches, z+1 has the magma spout above the pressure plate and the top of the three pump long pump stack.
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(ps, i did suggest magma flowing around the spikes. 8)) Scratch that, I see what you mean now...Yeah i should definitely make that change huh? (I embarked on a volcano so magma is like candy) the question is, however, will the magma push the gobbo off the ledge?
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If it doesn't, then burning to death on the spot would disengage the trap anyway.
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hmmm...too bad magma has been buggy lately and caused more drownings than burnings :P
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(ps, i did suggest magma flowing around the spikes. 8)) Scratch that, I see what you mean now...Yeah i should definitely make that change huh? (I embarked on a volcano so magma is like candy) the question is, however, will the magma push the gobbo off the ledge?
Magma pushes just as well as water does. Plus that design with the pump stack would constantly refresh, pouring magma down nonstop until the goblin either falls off or fries.
One thing I might do is add another channeled tile next to the pressure plate that does not have a hatch on it such that any additional magma can vent and does not get caught when the goblin dies.
Edit: Alternatively, you could just have the pressure plate trigger from both creatures and magma. That way if any additional magma is on the square the hatches stay open until it rolls off.
Edit edit: That would just result in a permanently open system... definitely not what you would want. Scratch that. Go with the additional channel.
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I just invented an über leet defense system for my fortress, which is really cheap to make and even cheaper if you happen to have a brook / river / stream at hand. I have a 3 tile wide corridor which then splits into four 1x1 corridors which have a pressure plate with floor hatches on both sides of the plate, which are opened by the plate. When an intruder steps on the pressure plate, the hatches open, forcing the intruder to stand still on the plate, then after that a hatch which is also linked on the pressure plate opens above the intruder, dropping water on the intruder, which then pushes him into either one of the two hatches next to the pressure plate. The pressure plate is then deactivated due to water pushing the intruder off the plate, closing the 3 hatches and while the intruder falls into a 15 z-levels deep pit which has grates at the bottom that let the water drop into a cavern below.
I was thinking along the same lines, but for capturing FBs and clowns into cages. (My Clown Zoo needs them badly.)
I have no idea if this would work, however. Haven't tried it yet.
Anyway, my idea was: a long narrow walk up beside a fall of few z's, with cages and drain at bottom. Said room requiring the kicking in of a floodgate to gain access, (with animals in leashes to pull 'em in,) And with 7/7 water between doors to flow onto a plate to trigger additional hatches to open up from above and let a tank of water flow in with small delay and pressure that would hopefully throw some clowns off balance and cause them to fall to cage traps below. Maybe with replacing said tank of water with a cave-in option, if just pressurized water doesn't do the trick for the clowns. I dunno yet. Must test, in due time. Interested in other traps that people have used to cage fun stuff.
I mean, I can't really colonize Hell without some demons to show people in a Zoo, can I?
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Important note: The only time clowns EVER fall into cage traps is when there are webs on said trap. Absolutely nothing else works.
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I'm wondering what are the odds of a dwarf of yours standing on either one of the hatches when a creature steps on the plate, killing them both?
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so pressure plates linked to hatches trigger instantly? They don't have a delay the way floodgates and bridges do?
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so pressure plates linked to hatches trigger instantly? They don't have a delay the way floodgates and bridges do?
That's right.
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Okay, i have a fort that is doing alright and work is progressing on the trap. I have somewhere around an 18z level fall awaiting any gobbos that try to invade :D also, after falling, if they somehow survive, they have to run the gauntlet again. if they somehow make it past the hatch floors (mainly flyers) then they go through a trap corridor. If they somehow (flying FB/clown) still get past that, then they go down a spiral ramp around a magmafall (eventually this) and grates generating magma mist ( 8)) then fight through my barracks before getting anywhere near the residential or industrial areas of my fort. yeah, im pro like that. 8)
every entrance to the caverns or cotton candy spires will be from the stairwells that were used as access to dig this as well allow extremely lucky/unlucky invaders to have a second go. so, win?
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I have finally successfully built the TTMV! :D
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Hmmmm....
Instead of killing them with fall damage, I got a better idea.
Make them fall into a pit with a hatch floor. Activating the hatches drops them into a secondary platform. Connected to the happy fun place.
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Mine kills them with fall, stab and burn damage all at once :D And my computer's cores dont like HFS so...yeah. we will be sticking to fall/stab/burn
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I built this trap in a fort yesterday. I made some unrelated mistakes that cost me my fort to a goblin attack, but the traps performed very effectively while my fort was dying. My design had them dropped down about 20 Z levels plus a few Z levels into a cavern system.
One thing I noticed is that I had a fair bit of spillage from the water used for flushing the toilet. Not enough to flood my fort, but enough to make a mess. Any thoughts on revising the trap? Maybe some grates?
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How did you design the trap? ie, where was it placed, where were channels etc. I use a channel next to their path so that the magma has another route for fast draining as opposed to only using the hatches (this would account for that spillage I believe. With magma even a little spillage can be a big deal...)
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How did you design the trap? ie, where was it placed, where were channels etc. I use a channel next to their path so that the magma has another route for fast draining as opposed to only using the hatches (this would account for that spillage I believe. With magma even a little spillage can be a big deal...)
I had a 4 tile wide walkway that split into 4 single tile tunnels with the hatch->plate->hatch in the middle. The tunnels were perhaps only 9 tiles long. The water hatch was above the pressure plate of course, in a chamber being fed directly from the river. After the traps, the tunnel formed back into a 4 tile path. I did not have any additional channeling, so that could have helped. I wasn't sure if the hatches would support the pressure plate tile if the walls next to it were channeled.
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The hatches will not support the pressure plate tile but if you leave the pillar directly underneath the pressure plate undisturbed through every z level it should be fine. That is why I left a wall on one side of mine, it prevents me from accidentally collapsing my plate...
T=wall
S=space
H=hatch
P=plate
N=water/magma
K=10xMenacing spikes ;)
F=floor
z +1
TTTTTTT
NNNHNNN
TTTTTTT
z 0
TTTTTTT
FFHPHFF
TTTTTTT
Z -1
TTTTTTT
TTSTSTT
TTTTTTT
Z -n
TTTTTTT
TTKTKTT
FFFFFFF
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The hatches will not support the pressure plate tile but if you leave the pillar directly underneath the pressure plate undisturbed through every z level it should be fine. That is why I left a wall on one side of mine, it prevents me from accidentally collapsing my plate...
T=wall
S=space
H=hatch
P=plate
N=water/magma
K=10xMenacing spikes ;)
F=floor
z +1
TTTTTTT
NNNHNNN
TTTTTTT
I wonder if part if it is that my reservoir up top isn't segmented like your example here. I.e. there were more water tiles adjacent to the hatch and that increased flow? Not sure if thats how it works.
z 0
TTTTTTT
FFHPHFF
TTTTTTT
Z -1
TTTTTTT
TTSTSTT
TTTTTTT
Z -n
TTTTTTT
TTKTKTT
FFFFFFF
Looks good, I will try that. Beneath my plate/hatch level it was just a 16x16 or so open pit that I had dug out and then channeled via collapsing a floor.
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Well, my cistern was not segmented, it was an open tank, but I just drew it that way for convenience. :P
The biggest alteration is that side channel as it allows the magma/water to flow away from the pressure plate and hatches keeping the trap from accumulating.
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Well, my cistern was not segmented, it was an open tank, but I just drew it that way for convenience. :P
The biggest alteration is that side channel as it allows the magma/water to flow away from the pressure plate and hatches keeping the trap from accumulating.
Roger that.
Now at your bottom level, what do you use to keep the water/magma from causing a mess down there? Just some further Z levels below the kill point along with channels/grates? I didn't worry about that in my setup since i was just dumping everyone into a cavern system, but in your setup I imagine being able to retrieve parts/loot is nice.
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So the idea is to force something onto a pressure plate which opens up a liquid gate, 'washing' them down a 'drain'...
TOO DOCILE!
Instead, how about forcing them into a one-tile wide area and onto a pressure plate which activates the legendary dwarven MAGMA CANNON. The magma cannon's mouth is also one tile wide but extends a ways back to build up more pressure. The magma, upon its release, BLASTS whatever was standing on the plate at point-blank range, launching them into a 'drain', where the magma exits and re-enters the loading chamber for the cannon. With such horrible burns, whatever is down in that grate will either be dead immediately or dead within a matter of seconds. Extremely painful and also extremely awesome/effective. Could probably be used against since it's magma too.
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Could probably be used against since it's magma too.
Yeah, you might possibly wash them.
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Ahaha! Hilarious! Pictures pleasseeeee, even half failed ones would be great!!
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I've got another fort going with this trap setup again, with a few refinements.
My passages are laid out like this:
TTTTTTT
GGHPHGG
TTTTTTT
Where T is wall, G is grate, H is hatch, and P is pressure plate.
Underneath all that its just a big open pit for 15 levels, then 10x menacing spikes under each hatch, along with some more grating. There are a few more z-levels below this, and then some grating covering up a drop into a cavern system.
Haven't had a goblin attack yet, so I don't know for sure how the new system will work, but the grates should help with the drainage.
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does anybody know if linking multiple pressure plates to a single hatch will trigger the hatch if only 1 plate is activated?
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does anybody know if linking multiple pressure plates to a single hatch will trigger the hatch if only 1 plate is activated?
It should have that effect. AFAIK
I've got another fort going with this trap setup again, with a few refinements.
My passages are laid out like this:
TTTTTTT
GGHPHGG
TTTTTTT
Where T is wall, G is grate, H is hatch, and P is pressure plate.
Underneath all that its just a big open pit for 15 levels, then 10x menacing spikes under each hatch, along with some more grating. There are a few more z-levels below this, and then some grating covering up a drop into a cavern system.
Haven't had a goblin attack yet, so I don't know for sure how the new system will work, but the grates should help with the drainage.
That seems like it could work, but is there any way a building destroyer can destroy those grates? And if you wanted to use magma then that would require using all magma safe grates, which is more work.
So the idea is to force something onto a pressure plate which opens up a liquid gate, 'washing' them down a 'drain'...
TOO DOCILE!
Instead, how about forcing them into a one-tile wide area and onto a pressure plate which activates the legendary dwarven MAGMA CANNON. The magma cannon's mouth is also one tile wide but extends a ways back to build up more pressure. The magma, upon its release, BLASTS whatever was standing on the plate at point-blank range, launching them into a 'drain', where the magma exits and re-enters the loading chamber for the cannon. With such horrible burns, whatever is down in that grate will either be dead immediately or dead within a matter of seconds. Extremely painful and also extremely awesome/effective. Could probably be used against since it's magma too.
Mine uses magma to push them down a 27 z level drop. If we use the dimensions from the DF->minecraft utililty, that puts the drop at 81 meters. They then land on 10x menacing spikes, and smother in magma while impaled. how is that docile?
Also, after class today, I will upload the save if anyone wants to look at my trap design. I think the world I genned (or at least my embark location) has no goblins or elves (31.13) so it probably wont be used. but you can see the design quite well. I havent gotten around to placing the spikes yet however...
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That seems like it could work, but is there any way a building destroyer can destroy those grates? And if you wanted to use magma then that would require using all magma safe grates, which is more work.
That's a good question. I might just wall that level up until I can properly fortify a beachhead in the cavern system. I really only need access to the kill-level for loot retrieval purposes. Regarding magma safe grates, most of them are already bauxite since I ran into tons of it. A magma retrofit wouldnt be too hard. I'd just have to swap out about a third of the grates, and 1 of the hatches.
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OP, no offense but your system is incredibly overcomplicated and likely won't work the way you want it to. Have you actually built this?
Much simpler is to have the single-tile walkway over a large fall and have some weapon traps on it, which force the enemies to dodge and likely to dodge straight off the walkway.
I've done something like OP's version before, and it is way easier than what you suggest (which is what I normally go with because it requires less planning). OP's takes longer, as far as planning is concerned, but the actual work that goes into it is minimal (in most cases).
The only negative to OP's is that it isn't troll proof. I had a set-up that was similar (basically, two hatches at each end of a small line of weapon traps... gobbos are either dropped into my drowning pit, or run back and forth pathing over weapon traps until they are laying limbless in a heap) and the trolls wrecked it every damn time. What Forsaken suggests is troll-proof.
I've dealt enough with trolls that I would probably go with Forsaken's simply to avoid having to re-construct it after every siege.
...
THOUGH...
You could combine both, using a single-tile strip, lined with traps with a pressure-plate in the middle... pressure plate releases water which knocks any gobbos that have made it that far off the tiles and into the pit which I would imagine finishes them off.
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Do the trolls break it though? From my experience, trolls take a while to destroy things, and if I use magma they will be !!Trolls!! falling swiftly towards spikes...
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So I was doing another fort, and used this trap again, since it worked so well against goblins last time.
Kobold bowmen and swordsmen came and bypassed it entirely! Ran right over the pressure plates without triggering them. I had the weight set as low as it will go. Do kobolds avoid pressure plates or are they too light?
EDIT: Nevermind. I'm a retard. Kobolds are [TRAPAVOID]. I mistakenly thought it was just thieves who were like that. Guess I will need to revise the trap, or just prepare to do things the old fashioned way.
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OP, no offense but your system is AMAZINGLY DWARFY. Have you actually built this?
Much ELFIER is to have the single-tile walkway over a large fall and have some weapon traps on it, which force the enemies to dodge and likely to dodge straight off the walkway.
Fixed that for you :P
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His system requires a renewable water source directly above the trap points, which requires a lot more time and effort with pumps and power than it does to throw a bunch of wooden training axes into weapon traps.
The point of the traps I mentioned is not to kill the intruder, but to make them dodge and fall off the side. It accomplishes the same thing his system does, making them fall, without water or pumping.
You should be making spiked wooden balls, not training axes, if you don't have magma glass furnaces set up yet. They attack 3x as often and rarely kill (which is actually desirable in this sort of trap).
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His system requires a renewable water source directly above the trap points, which requires a lot more time and effort with pumps and power than it does to throw a bunch of wooden training axes into weapon traps.
The point of the traps I mentioned is not to kill the intruder, but to make them dodge and fall off the side. It accomplishes the same thing his system does, making them fall, without water or pumping.
You should be making spiked wooden balls, not training axes, if you don't have magma glass furnaces set up yet. They attack 3x as often and rarely kill (which is actually desirable in this sort of trap).
Your necro of this old thread makes an excellent point, though I believe at the time of my post wooden blunt weapons were entirely useless. I have not tried them in recent versions.
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His system requires a renewable water source directly above the trap points, which requires a lot more time and effort with pumps and power than it does to throw a bunch of wooden training axes into weapon traps.
The point of the traps I mentioned is not to kill the intruder, but to make them dodge and fall off the side. It accomplishes the same thing his system does, making them fall, without water or pumping.
You should be making spiked wooden balls, not training axes, if you don't have magma glass furnaces set up yet. They attack 3x as often and rarely kill (which is actually desirable in this sort of trap).
Your necro of this old thread makes an excellent point, though I believe at the time of my post wooden blunt weapons were entirely useless. I have not tried them in recent versions.
Wooden weapons are actually pretty good in terms of knocking people off of walkways and the fact that they're nearly always non-lethal is a bonus.
As for the necro, I had too many tabs open (someone recently linked to this ancient thread, so it's not like I realized this was from page 20 or whatever) and thus I mistook the "this thread is over 120 days old" for one of those warnings about someone else having already replied. By the time I realized what it actually said, I had already hit submit.... oops :)
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No worries. :P
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i dont like dropping them on to spikes or for such a distance that they die on impact.
i like dropping them just far enough to horrendously wound them, then send the kung-fu squad in for xp.