Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Modding => Topic started by: CrimsonEon on October 26, 2010, 10:50:02 pm

Title: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on October 26, 2010, 10:50:02 pm
I know it's probable that this has been posted somewhere else, if so, please redirect me to it, because searches have proven unhelpful and I don't feel like resurrecting an old thread solely for this question.

So, I've been attempting to find a way to create weapons and ammunition that can cause severe aliments and damage by means other than physical damage and dismemberment. I've tried multiple things, and have yet to create a nice effect. Thus prompting me to ask this question.

Is it possible, in the current build (v16), to create a material type that can either force a syndrome on a victim, or other effects, like exploding, igniting, melting or freezing?

I've tried messing with contact syndromes (the ones most likely to work), injection syndromes, MAT_FIXED_TEMP, and tweaking all other sorts of values, yet none have really yielded anything, and I don't want to go around messing with other creature's blood types to create the effect when they're struck (Though that does give me a nice idea about making cats that explode when hurt, I think someone else managed to implement it, ought to be a guide on DFWiki for it.)

Thread Findings Summary:

Some types of special bolts are possible in DF. The bolts are primarily reliant on the temperature of the creature it is embedded in to work. By setting an ignite point (for burning ammo) or melting point (for syndrome ammo) to around 10067 (The usual HOMEOTHERM value for most creatures) the ammo will take effect upon being embedded into the creature. For syndrome ammo, the syndrome takes effect upon contact with the melted ammo.

Here's three types of ammo material provided by dbay;
Explodium (Igniting ammo)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Virium (Syndrome inflicting ammo)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Doomium (A combination of both :D)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It is worth noting that the Object Testing Arena has a significantly higher base temperature than anywhere in normal fortress mode at 10090 degrees U (Also according to dbay). It's not enough to melt creatures, but materials in items that are set to burn/melt below that temperature will instantly burn/melt wherever they are, making testing material temperature effects there unreliable.

Here's two videos of the effects of Explodium and Virium.

Explodium - http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-2312-explodiumdemonstration
Virium - http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-2313-viriumdemonstration
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Funk on October 27, 2010, 10:47:01 am
syndromes dont work with solid materials.
try making a metal that starts to melt or boils at body temp,any time it gets to body temp it shoud do its thing.
i will try to do a test.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: thijser on October 27, 2010, 01:54:32 pm
Get a material with either very high standard temperature or a very low one. Now everything that comes close to your weapon will burn/freeze. You can also mod in reactions I don't know whatever it will work but maybe you could mod a weapon so that it will start a reaction when it touches blood. You could make it so that touching blood will cause it to become extremly hot. That way your target would burn. I haven't tried this but I think it should be passble.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on October 27, 2010, 04:20:56 pm
Well, now I got a result that seems somewhat promising. After setting a material's (willow wood's) ignition point to a bit below normal body temperature for most creatures (10050) and given it the piercing properties of adamantine, I set some hunters off to hunt with said material as ammunition. After a bit of shooting arrows at flying buzzards, one crashed to the ground, burning brightly, and, sadly, burning all the plants on the map in a huge forest fire, but hey, I got the effect! Now to look for other cool things to do with ammunition, or how to make it safer for preventing forest fires..

EDIT: It appears the forest fire only happened because my hunter picked the corpse up and caught on fire, returned to the wagon and set everything else on fire. If I leave the corpse alone, it surprisingly doesn't burn anything else.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Gearheart on October 27, 2010, 04:30:08 pm
I wonder if you could simulate electricity by having a massive increase in temperature followed by a sharp drop...

Still, that fiery bolt effect does sound like a fairly cool thing, so I wish you the best of luck with your !!Science!!, and hope you post the results here.

EDIT: Wait, adamantine makes terrible bolts. Like, really terrible. Did you just make a bolt which instagibs anything which isn't immune to fire?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on October 27, 2010, 04:51:45 pm
Well, it doesn't deal much damage, but it has a good probability of getting *embedded* into the enemy, which is crucial to transferring the target's body heat to the bolt, which then ignites it, leaving the victim to a slow death by burning. I find it a nice effect, provided you don't use it for hunting, as then your dwarves are much more prone to getting on fire themselves.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: ShadowDragon8685 on October 27, 2010, 06:09:18 pm
You could try setting it to, instead of igniting, melting or even sublimating into some kind of heinously poisonous stuff. That might not work, though - incendiary ammunition probably seems to be the best.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on October 27, 2010, 09:13:03 pm
Quote from: ShadowDragon8685 on October 27, 2010, 06:09:18 pm
You could try setting it to, instead of igniting, melting or even sublimating into some kind of heinously poisonous stuff. That might not work, though - incendiary ammunition probably seems to be the best.
Of course! This is Dwarf Fortress! Fire is always Fun!
Now to remind everyone that fire only solves DF problems. Arson is bad.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: dbay on October 27, 2010, 09:57:49 pm
Okay! I just tried two experimental metals, one that ignites at standard dwarf body temperature (10068 Urist) aptly named Explodium, and one that should sublimate at the same temperature with a deadly toxin that only dwarves are immune to. I also made it so only bolts can be made of these materials so that other civs don't randomly spawn with armour made from them (hilarity would ensue). The materials use iron stats everywhere that I didn't change.

They only ignite/sublimate on some hits, I beleive it to be only the ones in which the bolts get stuck in the target.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Any ideas for what they should be made from? I'm thinking Iron and something horrible like bones or skulls...
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on October 27, 2010, 11:45:19 pm
Virus bolts? Excellent! They would make a great addition to any fortress along with Incendiary ammo! I think I'll make a guide for this on the DFWiki, it's important that everyone else knows how to do this kind of stuff, too.

By the way, as I think I said earlier, the bolts only reach the proper temperature when they're stuck into the body, and only when that body has a HOMEOTHERM value of 10067 (provided that your boiling/ignite point for the material is 10067 or below and also above room temperature, which I can't quite remember the value for.)

Next on my personal agenda are cats that either explode or spill flaming blood when hurt, then massive numbers of cats could actually be useful!

EDIT: Also, as a side note, there's something really weird about the Object Testing Arena's 'Room Temperature', all the bolts I make ignite immediately, yet in Fortress mode they don't ignite until they are embedded in flesh. Just something to note while dealing with temperatures in modding.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: 3 on October 27, 2010, 11:46:54 pm
Quote from: CrimsonEon on October 27, 2010, 11:45:19 pm
(provided that your boiling/ignite point for the material is 10067 or below and also above room temperature, which I can't quite remember the value for.)

It's always 10040 underground.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Fayrik on October 28, 2010, 10:57:07 am
I think that "Room Temperature" can be a variable in some cases, and that we need some additional testing here to prove what effects the environment has on these metals.

I remember reading something on the Wiki that hinted towards "Warm Stone" being much warmer than non-warm stones.
Perhaps it's the large amount of Magma on the level that warms up the arena?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: bragos on October 28, 2010, 11:20:46 am
Quote from: dbay on October 27, 2010, 09:57:49 pm
Any ideas for what they should be made from? I'm thinking Iron and something horrible like bones or skulls...
Elven spines?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on October 28, 2010, 12:31:19 pm
Well, after working in the Object Testing Arena, in which I know the room temperature is hot enough to either ignite the bolts itself, or not cold enough to cancel out the temperature transferred by holding the bolts (Can't be too sure of either, unless I could see the exact value for that the temperature is at the time), to my surprise I found that equipping the dwarves with nether cap gauntlets (Which have a fixed temperature at 10000) managed to keep the bolts all intact until they were let loose into the enemy. With multiple tests, I found that the bolts have a much higher tolerance for heat when in the hands of a dwarf wearing the gauntlets. One dwarf with incendiary bolts managed to shoot an enemy multiple times before the enemy closed distance and wrestled the bolts from his hand, and then all promptly ignited as the marksdwarf avoided burning. I suppose the bolts can be treated as hazardous materials when in hot environments and only be stored in nether cap bins, and only be handled by nether-cap gauntlet clad haulers and archers, which adds a cool twist to the whole thing, adding a risk to using the bolts to balance out their almost-guaranteed ability to kill with time. Also with the virus bolts, should the bolts actually manage to melt in the gauntlet user's hands, the gauntlet will prevent contact, however the molten virus bolts may boil, and the dwarf may end up inhaling it anyway.

These bolts are proving to be a really cool concept, I think I'll put them in all my subsequent fortresses  :)

EDIT: Random Idea: Cover the bolts in some sort of freezing liquid that evaporates when fired to ensure safety until fired! If only there was an easy way to cover bolts in a liquid, or even obtain a liquid in a controlled container.

EDIEDIT: Come to think of it, if a custom reaction creates both the bolts and the liquid at the same time, perhaps the bolts will start out covered in it? And I think all coverings the bolts have are erased when they're fired... I MUST TRY THIS.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: dbay on October 28, 2010, 01:54:24 pm
using dfhack, i found that the temp in the object testing arena was waaaay higher than in fortress mode- like 10090 U or something like that. Which is why things don't always work.

I haven't actually tested these weapons in fortress mode, so we'll see.

Also: what tags should I use to include bones and stuff in the reaction? I can't make heads or tails of these [THING:OTHERTHING:CRAZYTHING:NONE] stuff necessary for reactions, and I read the anatomy of a reaction guide.

EDIT:
Quote from: CrimsonEon on October 28, 2010, 12:31:19 pm
EDIEDIT: Come to think of it, if a custom reaction creates both the bolts and the liquid at the same time, perhaps the bolts will start out covered in it? And I think all coverings the bolts have are erased when they're fired... I MUST TRY THIS.

that's BRILLIANT! make sure you tell us how it works out!

ALSO: you can stud ammo with gems en masse, right? so... what if we add gems that have some other truly heinous effect? incendiary bolts that melt the gems that release toxic gas? the options are limitless!
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: fivex on October 28, 2010, 04:42:20 pm
Quote from: dbay on October 28, 2010, 01:54:24 pm
ALSO: you can stud ammo with gems en masse, right? so... what if we add gems that have some other truly heinous effect? incendiary bolts that melt the gems that release toxic gas? the options are limitless!
That won't actually work
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Fayrik on October 28, 2010, 05:09:37 pm
Quote from: dbay on October 28, 2010, 01:54:24 pm
using dfhack, i found that the temp in the object testing arena was waaaay higher than in fortress mode- like 10090 U or something like that. Which is why things don't always work.
I tested out some slightly modified Viral bolts on the Arena and they worked.
Unfortunately, I had expected them to have much better results, as currently they're either just skimming the target, or once it hits the target then pulls it out before it infects them.
I also added a nausia effect to them, so that you can tell when the shots have properly boiled faster.

I shall however, test this some more, and see what the arena can yield. (And see if these methods hold any stability.)
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: dbay on October 28, 2010, 05:38:06 pm
maybe if we seriously increase how sharp they are? they might be more likely to stab into the target.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: fivex on October 28, 2010, 05:50:52 pm
Make a combo effect!
Make a reaction the fills bolts made of the igniting metal with the virus metal thing but make the virus metal start out a a liquid and boil slightly higher then body temperature.
The bolt ignites and boils the virus metal
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Fayrik on October 28, 2010, 06:19:08 pm
Quote from: fivex on October 28, 2010, 05:50:52 pm
Make a combo effect!
Make a reaction the fills bolts made of the igniting metal with the virus metal thing but make the virus metal start out a a liquid and boil slightly higher then body temperature.
The bolt ignites and boils the virus metal
While, this could theoretically work, I've unfortunatly never encountered any reactions that could attatch one arrow to another. Is there any existing reaction types that could be used as examples?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: dbay on October 28, 2010, 07:31:30 pm
Well, we could just make one metal that ignites at body temperature, and then sublimates at whatever temperature the fire creates and is basically nerve gas.
1. hit target
2. temperature hits 10067 U, igniting the bolt
3. bolt and target are now on fire
4. fire increases temperature to ???? U
5. causing bolt to melt and boil, poisoning the creature and any nearby.

Thus combining the best elements of explodium and virus metal.

but most importantly: what do we call it?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: FierceNugWrangler on October 28, 2010, 07:57:22 pm
Call it virusplodium. it causes the flame plague :D
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Fayrik on October 28, 2010, 08:07:18 pm
Quote from: dbay on October 28, 2010, 07:31:30 pm
Well, we could just make one metal that ignites at body temperature, and then sublimates at whatever temperature the fire creates and is basically nerve gas.
1. hit target
2. temperature hits 10067 U, igniting the bolt
3. bolt and target are now on fire
4. fire increases temperature to ???? U
5. causing bolt to melt and boil, poisoning the creature and any nearby.

Thus combining the best elements of explodium and virus metal.

but most importantly: what do we call it?
I created Doomium to test these things out, it's a combined ignition and viral bolt.
It melts at 10051U, ignites at 10052U and sublimes at 10053U.
I've kept the temperatures close together to minimize misfire, but it doesn't seem to ignite the target, instead, just poisons them, leaving a rather long trail of green goo!
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: iceball3 on October 28, 2010, 08:18:35 pm
Quote from: Fayrik on October 28, 2010, 08:07:18 pm
Quote from: dbay on October 28, 2010, 07:31:30 pm
Well, we could just make one metal that ignites at body temperature, and then sublimates at whatever temperature the fire creates and is basically nerve gas.
1. hit target
2. temperature hits 10067 U, igniting the bolt
3. bolt and target are now on fire
4. fire increases temperature to ???? U
5. causing bolt to melt and boil, poisoning the creature and any nearby.

Thus combining the best elements of explodium and virus metal.

but most importantly: what do we call it?
I created Doomium to test these things out, it's a combined ignition and viral bolt.
It melts at 10051U, ignites at 10052U and sublimes at 10053U.
I've kept the temperatures close together to minimize misfire, but it doesn't seem to ignite the target, instead, just poisons them, leaving a rather long trail of green goo!
Vomit.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: dbay on October 28, 2010, 08:34:42 pm
Maybe its not on fire long enough for any meaningful effect? I think it will only work properly if Doomium's melting/boiling point are both above body temperature, meaning the bolt has to be on fire before anything else takes into effect.

I'll test it after I do my homework.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Fayrik on October 28, 2010, 08:37:15 pm
Good point. I'll go try out the new Doomium temperatures, and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on October 28, 2010, 09:18:06 pm
Well, I tried my hand at what I mentioned earlier, and when I made a reaction that creates both bolts and liquid, they're stuck into the building separately, the liquid's properties don't even come into effect from inside the workshop, it just stays there in stasis and I'm unable to take it out. Though I suppose this doesn't come as much of a concern, as I noticed that in Fortress mode, even in a Scorching Climate Desert, the bolts remained intact until shot and embedded into something, so I suppose the coolant liquid is unnecessary, even if It did pose a risk, Nether-Caps wouldn't be too hard to come by underground, and the gauntlets should prevent any ignition while they're in the dwarves hand.

Doomium... I like it already
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: dbay on October 28, 2010, 10:36:00 pm
I dropped the SPEC_HEAT to 1 meaning that it heats up 500x as fast

For those of you keeping track at home, here's my newest version of doomium:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Note that it doesn't work in the testing arena, because the room temperature is warmer than the inside of a dwarf. this leads to much Fun.
the bolts work by igniting on body temperature when they stick into the creature, lighting it on fire. the fire then causes the bolt to sublimate into a gas, which is highly toxic.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Fayrik on October 28, 2010, 10:55:32 pm
Quote from: dbay on October 28, 2010, 10:36:00 pm
--
For those of you keeping track at home, here's my newest version of doomium:
*snip*
Fantastic, but.. I'm still trying to work out the optimum Max_Edge...
(Actually, I'm wondering if that's the variable I should be looking at at all!)
My bolts are having trouble sticking.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: dbay on October 28, 2010, 11:27:50 pm
I tested for something else that bolts with a smaller contact area stick a lot more than bolts with a higher contact area (i made a shuriken cannon, they never stuck).

You can create a second ammo with CLASS:BOLT with a smaller contact area. Call them needles, maybe. I'll give it a shot right now, actually, and see how it goes

EDIT:
add this to your item_ammunition file and the entity file. they stick into creatures more often than regular bolts, from what I can tell (ie, after about three minutes of research)

[ITEM_AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_NEEDLES]
[NAME:needle:needles]
[CLASS:BOLT]
[SIZE:150]
[ATTACK:EDGE:1:4000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:2000]

I'd say they were unbalanced-ly good.... but keep in mind we're giving our dwarves nerve gas. so.... balance=/=major concern.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: jocan2003 on October 29, 2010, 07:29:30 am
How about simply increasing animal body temp for testing then making a batch file to increase all animal body temp?no more trouble of dwarf setting to bolt because they hold it or room temp setting them off.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: iceball3 on October 29, 2010, 05:04:58 pm
For everybody wondering why the ammo ignites/melts in arena mode, the dwarf is holding ammo in hands. since the ammo spends an extended period of time outside of their quiver at at least body temp, they ignite. I'm thinking containers help insulate the ammo.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on October 29, 2010, 07:13:16 pm
Quote from: iceball3 on October 29, 2010, 05:04:58 pm
For everybody wondering why the ammo ignites/melts in arena mode, the dwarf is holding ammo in hands. since the ammo spends an extended period of time outside of their quiver at at least body temp, they ignite. I'm thinking containers help insulate the ammo.
Quote from: CrimsonEon
Well, after working in the Object Testing Arena, in which I know the room temperature is hot enough to either ignite the bolts itself, or not cold enough to cancel out the temperature transferred by holding the bolts (Can't be too sure of either, unless I could see the exact value for that the temperature is at the time)
Quote from: dbay
using dfhack, i found that the temp in the object testing arena was waaaay higher than in fortress mode- like 10090 U or something like that. Which is why things don't always work.

The temperature in the Arena, as stated earlier, is much, much higher than it is in Fortress mode. The bolts, even on their own, will ignite. In fortress mode, even in a scorching climate desert with the dwarves holding the bolts for extended amounts of time, the bolts have refused to ignite, I believe it's the even more extreme temperature that the Arena has that causes premature ignition, not the dwarves holding the bolts.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on October 29, 2010, 10:54:20 pm
WHY is the arena so hot, and HOWcome dwarves don't swiftly die of heat in it?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: iceball3 on October 30, 2010, 07:03:58 am
Because it's not THAT hot, and heatstroke is in no way modeled in this game. You either bleed out because all of your fat melts, or if you have no fat, then something important goes up in flames and you die. Mind you the only truly important (As in can kill you in ways outside your bleeding) organs are the lungs, heart(though it's almost a guaranteed instant bleed out), and the brain.
The arena is not hot enough for that.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Fayrik on October 30, 2010, 02:28:05 pm
Quote from: iceball3 on October 30, 2010, 07:03:58 am
Because it's not THAT hot, and heatstroke is in no way modeled in this game.
If heatstroke was in the game, I'm afraid it is that hot.
Someone commented on it being 10090U in the Arena. That's 122F.
This could just be the fact I'm british, I'm used to freezing weather and having to do a rough celcius conversion in my head here.. But... I don't think I'd last too long in that sort of temperature.

But I doubt that's quite hot enough to ignite fat.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: iceball3 on October 30, 2010, 03:04:53 pm
Quote from: Fayrik on October 30, 2010, 02:28:05 pm
Quote from: iceball3 on October 30, 2010, 07:03:58 am
Because it's not THAT hot, and heatstroke is in no way modeled in this game.
If heatstroke was in the game, I'm afraid it is that hot.
Someone commented on it being 10090U in the Arena. That's 122F.
This could just be the fact I'm british, I'm used to freezing weather and having to do a rough celcius conversion in my head here.. But... I don't think I'd last too long in that sort of temperature.

But I doubt that's quite hot enough to melt fat.
Actually, melting is what causes bleeding. Burning will make the rest of you get fried too.
But you do have a point. It IS half way between boiling temp and freezing temp of water.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Fayrik on October 30, 2010, 03:09:26 pm
Quote from: iceball3 on October 30, 2010, 03:04:53 pm
Actually, melting is what causes bleeding.
Touché.

Quote from: iceball3 on October 30, 2010, 03:04:53 pm
It IS half way between boiling temp and freezing temp of water.
And not terribly comfortable, I dare venture.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: fivex on October 30, 2010, 04:57:38 pm
Quote from: Fayrik on October 30, 2010, 02:28:05 pm
Quote from: iceball3 on October 30, 2010, 07:03:58 am
Because it's not THAT hot, and heatstroke is in no way modeled in this game.
If heatstroke was in the game, I'm afraid it is that hot.
Someone commented on it being 10090U in the Arena. That's 122F.
This could just be the fact I'm british, I'm used to freezing weather and having to do a rough celcius conversion in my head here.. But... I don't think I'd last too long in that sort of temperature.

But I doubt that's quite hot enough to ignite fat.
I live in arizona and in mid-summer it gets to 120. Which is still really really hot
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Fayrik on October 30, 2010, 05:22:02 pm
Quote from: fivex on October 30, 2010, 04:57:38 pm
I live in arizona and in mid-summer it gets to 120. Which is still really really hot
I'm guessing there isn't a great deal of outdoor activity when it gets to that temperature, but when required it happens very quickly.
I also see a lot of air conditioning.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Funk on October 30, 2010, 05:37:05 pm
if the air is dry then 100c is fine.

im working on makeing them swell up and rot.
i tryed getting to head to swell up and explode
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: iceball3 on October 30, 2010, 07:43:47 pm
If it succesful then you are awesome.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on October 31, 2010, 09:57:21 am
Quote from: iceball3 on October 30, 2010, 07:43:47 pm
If it succesful then you are awesome.
Dwarf Fortress: The only game where severe necrosis is "awesome."
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: iceball3 on October 31, 2010, 10:04:43 am
Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on October 31, 2010, 09:57:21 am
Quote from: iceball3 on October 30, 2010, 07:43:47 pm
If it succesful then you are awesome.
Dwarf Fortress: The only game where severe necrosis leading to exploding limbs is "awesome."
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: dbay on November 01, 2010, 07:17:36 pm
Anybody know how hot fire is? Also, i'm editing the first post now to include everything we've come up with.

EDIT: nevermind. just realized i'm not the post starter. funny how memory works
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: iceball3 on November 01, 2010, 07:19:55 pm
Quote from: dbay on November 01, 2010, 07:17:36 pm
Anybody know how hot fire is? Also, i'm editing the first post now to include everything we've come up with.

EDIT: nevermind. just realized i'm not the post starter. funny how memory works
I believe that fire goes up to the [HEEATDAM] point or whatever that tag is.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on November 01, 2010, 07:37:18 pm
Quote from: iceball3 on October 31, 2010, 10:04:43 am
Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on October 31, 2010, 09:57:21 am
Quote from: iceball3 on October 30, 2010, 07:43:47 pm
If it succesful then you are awesome.
Dwarf Fortress: The only game where severe necrosis leading to exploding limbs is "awesome."
My point still stands.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: TolyK on February 05, 2011, 08:32:57 am
this is cool. err, warm.

posting to watch more stuff, maybe add some of my own.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on February 06, 2011, 03:16:18 pm
Huh, been awhile since I last seen this thread.

May as well update the first post with our findings.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Zaerosz on February 06, 2011, 03:52:49 pm
Well, that's pretty damn awesome.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Pride on February 08, 2011, 07:29:59 am
This is relevant to my interests (exploding ammo). Was hoping to create an arrow that did something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIi4Fe6jRHo
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Pride on February 09, 2011, 05:20:04 am
Added explodium to the inorganic_metal RAW file (including the [ITEMS_AMMO] tag) and created a custom reaction through the kiln to create explodium from lignite. The reaction is working correctly, but I'm unable to physically craft bolts from the explodium that is created. Any advice?

*Edit:
Messed around a bit and I believe I discovered the culprit. Apparently if/when you create a reaction for a metal object you can't use the POWDER_MISC type, it has to be BAR.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

*Edit x2:
In order to make the explodium bolts work more efficiently and less chaotically I altered the HOMEOTHERM number of the civ creatures in my current version of DF. Through this manner I was able to make it so that bolts wouldn't magically ignite on me while my adventurer travels through a hot, jungle forest, but will still burst into flames once impaled in a creature. My next step will probably be to create a custom crossbow that uses the custom igniting ammo (explodium) and make it so that only Dwarves are able to use both. I might not have actual exploding ammunition (yet), but it will cause increased bleed damage due to the melting of body parts.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Flaede on February 22, 2011, 11:53:59 pm
I need to follow this.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Assassinfox on February 23, 2011, 12:50:59 am
What if you created a material that ignited at room temperature, but didn't have a heat damage or melting point?  It would perpetually be on fire and never burn out, right?

Now, if you created a civ of fireimmune creatures and gave them a reaction to smelt this material, would you get invaders with flaming swords?  :D
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Flaede on February 23, 2011, 01:49:48 am
Quote from: Assassinfox on February 23, 2011, 12:50:59 am
What if you created a material that ignited at room temperature, but didn't have a heat damage or melting point?  It would perpetually be on fire and never burn out, right?

Now, if you created a civ of fireimmune creatures and gave them a reaction to smelt this material, would you get invaders with flaming swords?  :D

Oh. Oh dear. That kind of "goblinite" would be difficult to get off your map. You'd have to make sure they didn't have cloth clothes.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Alkhemia on February 23, 2011, 01:59:14 am
Quote from: Flaede on February 23, 2011, 01:49:48 am
Quote from: Assassinfox on February 23, 2011, 12:50:59 am
What if you created a material that ignited at room temperature, but didn't have a heat damage or melting point?  It would perpetually be on fire and never burn out, right?

Now, if you created a civ of fireimmune creatures and gave them a reaction to smelt this material, would you get invaders with flaming swords?  :D

Oh. Oh dear. That kind of "goblinite" would be difficult to get off your map. You'd have to make sure they didn't have cloth clothes.
  You could give them Armour made from the same stuff "!!FUN!!"

I Think I'm finally getting used to the forum...way of thinking....
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Flaede on February 23, 2011, 02:26:11 am
Quote from: Alkhemia on February 23, 2011, 01:59:14 am
Quote from: Flaede on February 23, 2011, 01:49:48 am
Quote from: Assassinfox on February 23, 2011, 12:50:59 am
What if you created a material that ignited at room temperature, but didn't have a heat damage or melting point?  It would perpetually be on fire and never burn out, right?

Now, if you created a civ of fireimmune creatures and gave them a reaction to smelt this material, would you get invaders with flaming swords?  :D

Oh. Oh dear. That kind of "goblinite" would be difficult to get off your map. You'd have to make sure they didn't have cloth clothes.
  You could give them Armour made from the same stuff "!!FUN!!"

I Think I'm finally getting used to the forum...way of thinking....

Looks that way. My condolences ;)

On topic: Hmmm... If it were valuable enough, thieves might haul it off your map for you. Best make a fireimmune thief race as well.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on February 23, 2011, 04:13:54 pm
For some reason i cant get any of these to work. i've tried in the arena and in adventure. they just act like regular bolts. I've got temperature on so i dont know what's wrong.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on February 27, 2011, 02:49:00 pm
No one has any ideas?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on February 27, 2011, 07:30:13 pm
Quote from: Foamy on February 23, 2011, 04:13:54 pm
For some reason i cant get any of these to work. i've tried in the arena and in adventure. they just act like regular bolts. I've got temperature on so i dont know what's wrong.

Any ideas?

Well, as stated in the last paragraph on my OP, the Arena is unreliable in terms of triggering the bolts, although the bolts *should* be igniting/melting immediately, so I'm unsure of what is happening there. Are you sure the bolts are 'Explodium/Virium/Doomium' Bolts, are implemented properly into the raws, and are they equipped on dwarves (Or other beings with at least HOMEOTHERM:10067), and do those dwarves have no other armor (Notably gloves) that could be interfering with the process?

I also haven't tried to test it in Adventure mode extensively. Material properties, most notably fire and ignition, tend to act strangely there. The only place I have gotten it to consistently work is in fortress mode (Via custom reactions and having hunters shoot Deer and Eagles). Of course it's still plausible that something in the last few version updates may have changed how these things are handled. If it still doesn't work, well, I don't know what to say  :-X
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on February 27, 2011, 08:04:38 pm
Yeah i've double checked everything. i've tried reducing the boiling point and everything just to get them to melt at some point but no settings have any affect in either mode.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Assassinfox on February 27, 2011, 08:31:26 pm
Do you have temperature turned off?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on February 27, 2011, 08:37:53 pm
nope, first thing i checked.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: dbay on February 27, 2011, 09:09:43 pm
They only work when they actually get stuck in the target, which only happens pretty rarely - 10% of the time or so. So its bound to happen after a volley of a couple of marksdwarves in fortress mode, but only occasionally in adventurer mode when you're the only person shooting.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on February 28, 2011, 07:50:44 am
I had two grand masters shooting at each other and there was at least one stuck in. all with doomium so it should have been noticeable.

If they're set to explode well bellow room temperature should they just go off when the arena starts?

i can only get creatures to melt and burn.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Flaede on February 28, 2011, 07:41:29 pm
Quote from: Foamy on February 28, 2011, 07:50:44 am
I had two grand masters shooting at each other and there was at least one stuck in. all with doomium so it should have been noticeable.

If they're set to explode well bellow room temperature should they just go off when the arena starts?

Possibly not, if they're created inside the subzero quivers. I don't know, you guys are way better at using the Arena for testing than I am.

Point of interest: Now that creating things in containers is in place, a "slowly melting" vial, filled with explodium^x would be a way to create grenades in Adventure mode. Anyone have any idea what the values for such a vial material would be?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on February 28, 2011, 08:29:44 pm
I'm not sure but is suspect it would be to do with spec heat or how good an insulator it is. I dont remember anyone doing detailed tests on what affect change has on it though.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: TolyK on March 01, 2011, 10:32:16 am
Quote from: Flaede on February 28, 2011, 07:41:29 pm
Point of interest: Now that creating things in containers is in place, a "slowly melting" vial, filled with explodium^x would be a way to create grenades in Adventure mode. Anyone have any idea what the values for such a vial material would be?
hmm....
1. we could have a material that burns below doomium blowup temp, then when it burns out the doomium goes "BOOM"
2. we could have a material that wears away quickly at it's fixed temp. then when it "rots" away doomium goes "BOOM"
3. we could have a material that melts at low temperatures but solidifies at high temperatures. it has a fixed temp of solid for it, but barely. it melts when out of someone's hand and doomium goes "BOOM"

...
also interesting would be this: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Molotov_cocktail (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Molotov_cocktail). If I understand correctly it just needs to burn at a high temperature and have high mass?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on March 01, 2011, 11:42:39 am
Does anyone have these materials working in the current version? if they do and they send me the game files i will test these grenade ideas.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Flaede on March 01, 2011, 01:51:43 pm
Thank you Foamy. I can't get these materials working. That's my issue. It all sounds like it should work, but I must not be good at working with densities and melting/burning/fixed temps.

Variable grenade "magic" would be an amazing mod for Adventure mode, but I am setting the idea loose, because I can't seem to get it to work.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on March 01, 2011, 02:04:52 pm
Do you have the exploding metals working for projectiles as described previously?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on March 01, 2011, 03:51:13 pm
Quote from: Flaede on March 01, 2011, 01:51:43 pm
Thank you Foamy. I can't get these materials working. That's my issue. It all sounds like it should work, but I must not be good at working with densities and melting/burning/fixed temps.

Variable grenade "magic" would be an amazing mod for Adventure mode, but I am setting the idea loose, because I can't seem to get it to work.

I find it odd that you guys are still having problems, I have it working perfectly on a fresh download of v19. To point out what is supposed to happen with them, I've uploaded videos to demonstrate their effects

Explodium - http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-2312-explodiumdemonstration (http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-2312-explodiumdemonstration)
Virium - http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-2313-viriumdemonstration (http://mkv25.net/dfma/movie-2313-viriumdemonstration)

I still have no idea why it isn't working for you in the first place  :-\
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on March 01, 2011, 03:56:15 pm
Is there any chance you could upload your whole game for me to try and identify the cause?

It would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on March 01, 2011, 04:01:56 pm
I will see to it after I understand how you're trying to implement it. In the videos, I've simply downloaded a completely fresh copy of v19, with nothing changed except to raw/objects/inorganic_metal. The changes of which was simply to copy the code given in the OP onto the bottom of the document (But above the entry for adamantine, so in between adamantine and Bismuth Bronze). Nothing more nothing less, if it still doesn't work, I'll upload a copy of the entire thing.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: CrimsonEon on March 01, 2011, 04:14:20 pm
Quote from: Flaede on February 28, 2011, 07:41:29 pm
Point of interest: Now that creating things in containers is in place, a "slowly melting" vial, filled with explodium^x would be a way to create grenades in Adventure mode. Anyone have any idea what the values for such a vial material would be?

I have actually tried this before, the execution is difficult. Vials are not easy to manipulate for any purpose other than trade. Have you ever tried to use gnomeblight to kill gnomes from inside the vial?

I tried to do something similar to what you said, and ran into two problems.
1) There is no 'slow melt', it'll be gone as soon as it's created, unless you set it to melt upon achieving body temperature, in which case it must be 'embedded' into a creature to work (Well, in adventure mode maaayyybe, if it's a really sharp vial).
2) When inside the vial, the material inside and the vial outside are tied, if the vial melts, it loses its container property and the contained material is outright destroyed.

I also tried something similar with barrels, perhaps to be able to set the barrels into a stockpile and ignite them to make some sort of gas chamber trap. I don't remember the precise details, but it didn't end out well either  :-\
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on March 01, 2011, 04:36:21 pm
Quote from: CrimsonEon on March 01, 2011, 04:01:56 pm
I will see to it after I understand how you're trying to implement it. In the videos, I've simply downloaded a completely fresh copy of v19, with nothing changed except to raw/objects/inorganic_metal. The changes of which was simply to copy the code given in the OP onto the bottom of the document (But above the entry for adamantine, so in between adamantine and Bismuth Bronze). Nothing more nothing less, if it still doesn't work, I'll upload a copy of the entire thing.

Hmm i recreated it doing as you said however the most interesting thing is that i then tried again with my old copy and it worked perfectly with nothing changed. As the doomium exploded instantly there is no way i would have missed it before.

I can't explain it but at least it is working. I am extremely grateful.

I'll see if i can get the arrows to delay their explosion now and if it is successful then i'll move onto grenades.


EDIT:
Quote from: CrimsonEon on March 01, 2011, 04:14:20 pm
1) There is no 'slow melt', it'll be gone as soon as it's created, unless you set it to melt upon achieving body temperature, in which case it must be 'embedded' into a creature to work (Well, in adventure mode maaayyybe, if it's a really sharp vial).

By increasing the spec heat i have increased the time it takes to ignite the material. even if putting it in pots is impossible being able to produce a grenade that will go off a certain time after it is created could be very useful.

I am having trouble making the material dangerous to bystanders though. most of the time the arrows dont even kill the guy holding them. It's early days though and still a lot to try.

EDIT2: Oh also and i have found the cause of the problem. It's something to do with taking control of a person in the arena. Seems to stop it working until the arena is reloaded.

EDIT3: Seems it is not possible to make a grenade as they will not melt/ignite when just left to the air.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: D_E on March 01, 2011, 10:28:57 pm
In adventure mode it is possible (or at least, was possible in .18) to make a grenade using reactions. 

Make two materials: an inert default material and an active material with a mat_set_temp above it's ignite point. 
When being carried around, grenades are made from the inert default material.

Make a reaction (called "pull the pin"?) that converts an object (boulders work well) made of the inert material into the active material.  After invoking this reaction, the adventurer has one turn to throw the grenade before it blows up in his hands.

I haven't tested it with objects that vaporize instead of burn when activated, but I think it should work.
_____________________________________

Also, I have recently discovered that at least some temperature work is done on unattended items in Fortress mode, at least as of .19.  Objects with a heatdam_point bellow their mat_set_temp will degrade even if left unattended.  I do not know if this is new or old behavior, and I do not know if it extends to the Arena. 
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Flaede on March 02, 2011, 12:09:56 am
Quote from: D_E on March 01, 2011, 10:28:57 pm
In adventure mode it is possible (or at least, was possible in .18) to make a grenade using reactions. 

Make two materials: an inert default material and an active material with a mat_set_temp above it's ignite point. 
When being carried around, grenades are made from the inert default material.

Make a reaction (called "pull the pin"?) that converts an object (boulders work well) made of the inert material into the active material.  After invoking this reaction, the adventurer has one turn to throw the grenade before it blows up in his hands.

I haven't tested it with objects that vaporize instead of burn when activated, but I think it should work.
_____________________________________

Also, I have recently discovered that at least some temperature work is done on unattended items in Fortress mode, at least as of .19.  Objects with a heatdam_point bellow their mat_set_temp will degrade even if left unattended.  I do not know if this is new or old behavior, and I do not know if it extends to the Arena.

The trouble with this is that it is just a twist on the "flaming arrow" type reactions. I was hoping for the delay a container->contents progression might add.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: D_E on March 02, 2011, 07:41:28 pm
I have an idea.  Temperature is run for items in containers, right?  Water freezes and melts, and if I remember correctly, Doomium style arrows in quivers immediately explode or ignite. 

The idea is this:  make a material with a high spec heat and a defined vaporization point (what happens if a material has a boiling point but no melting point?).  This is the explosive.  Make a second material with a fixed_temp above the boiling point of the explosive.  You may need to give it an ignite point below its set temp but above the boiling point of the explosive (to ensure that temperature is run on that square).  This is the fuse.  Put the explosive and the fuse together in a container, or make the container out of the fuse.  The fuse should gradually heat up the explosive, eventually causing it to explode (boil).

This basic strategy leaves behind a burning fuse, but it may be possible to use a heatdam_point that is just barely below the set_temp to cause the fuse to eventually disappear.  I used such a technique to cause spell effects to time out in my Zelda modmod.

I'll get around to testing this idea eventually ;).
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Chattox on May 21, 2011, 11:38:04 am
Sorry for the large bump, but once these materials are modded into the game, what is a reliable way to procure bolts and/or arrows and/or darts in adventure mode? Thanks.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on May 21, 2011, 11:45:00 am
You'll have to make an adventure mode reaction. If you get Wanderer's friend and modify the arrow making reaction to use a custom mat it would be easiest.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Chattox on May 21, 2011, 11:53:11 am
I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea what to do when it comes to modding at all :P Would someone be able to fix that up for me? I would be eternally grateful :)
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on May 21, 2011, 02:00:12 pm
Go to "reaction_wanderer.txt" under >raw>objects. Then copy the bellow into it like the other entries.

Code: [Select]
[REACTION:CREATE_DOOM_ARROWS_ADV]
[NAME:generate doomium arrows]
[ADVENTURE_MODE_ENABLED]
[PRODUCT:100:15:AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_ARROWS:INORGANIC:DOOMIUM]
[FORCE_EDGE]
[SKILL:CONCENTRATION]
If you replace the doomium references you can alter it to give any mat you want. just remember to change the reaction name so you don't get a conflict.

You can also change it to bolts by altering the "ITEM_AMMO_ARROWS" to "ITEM_AMMO_BOLTS"

I haven't done any modding in ages and i haven't tested this so there may be a mistake. You should install wanderer's friend and the special materials before this. the instructions for those should be in the wanderers friend thread and the start of this one respectively.
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Chattox on May 21, 2011, 02:35:36 pm
Quote from: Foamy on May 21, 2011, 02:00:12 pm
Go to "reaction_wanderer.txt" under >raw>objects. Then copy the bellow into it like the other entries.

If you replace the doomium references you can alter it to give any mat you want. just remember to change the reaction name so you don't get a conflict.

You can also change it to bolts by altering the "ITEM_AMMO_ARROWS" to "ITEM_AMMO_BOLTS"

I haven't done any modding in ages and i haven't tested this so there may be a mistake. You should install wanderer's friend and the special materials before this. the instructions for those should be in the wanderers friend thread and the start of this one respectively.

It works, but the virium arrows don't appear to melt on contact or do anything beyond stick in people. Am I doing something wrong?
Title: Re: Poisonous/Exploding/Igniting/Melting Weapons
Post by: Foamy on May 21, 2011, 03:10:01 pm
Probably not if the others work. All i can say is read through this tread and see if anything sticks out. you could also try playing around with the boiling/melting points for the material. it's just a matter of tweaking the numbers.

This should be of help: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Material_definition_token