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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: jdturner11 on November 26, 2010, 11:31:16 am

Title: Startup Technique
Post by: jdturner11 on November 26, 2010, 11:31:16 am
What say you?
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: nordak on November 26, 2010, 11:42:43 am
A hole in the ground with a walled courtyard to protect outdoor activities...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Urist McUristy on November 26, 2010, 01:11:50 pm
This needs to go into DF Dwarf Mode Discussion.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 26, 2010, 01:14:40 pm
Quote from: Urist McUristy on November 26, 2010, 01:11:50 pm
This needs to go into DF Dwarf Mode Discussion.
What is with the forum police lately? If you think a thread is misplaced then report it. Don't post for the sole purpose of telling the OP he did something wrong. That isn't your call, the moderators will take care of it.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: jdturner11 on November 26, 2010, 01:16:18 pm
Actually it is a question, should not all polls belong in this section ;)? Sorry if I misplaced it!
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Karlito on November 26, 2010, 01:28:34 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on November 26, 2010, 01:14:40 pm
Quote from: Urist McUristy on November 26, 2010, 01:11:50 pm
This needs to go into DF Dwarf Mode Discussion.
What is with the forum police lately? If you think a thread is misplaced then report it. Don't post for the sole purpose of telling the OP he did something wrong. That isn't your call, the moderators will take care of it.
(http://i53.tinypic.com/xm9ams.jpg)
It benefits us all as players to minimize the amount of forum moderating these two have to deal with, since that leaves them more time to develop the game and live the other parts of their lives.

jdturner, this section is more for people to get help with aspects of the game they don't understand.

So anyway, I usually don't enter into a fort with any specific design plans, but I usually wall off my entrance and focus on the underground first, but as the fortress matures I'll work on expanding my aboveground defenses to control ambushes and protect merchants and my FPS. A lot of the time, I try to make my constructions fit the natural terrain, like, I usually put my entrance on top of a hill, because that makes it easier in the early game to control access just by removing some ramps.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 26, 2010, 01:34:25 pm
Still it just spams the thread and does nothing, the thread is already created. Moving it would take a moderator as far as I know. A quick PM to the OP would have been ideal, as well as reporting it. No need to come stomping in, yell "You did it wrong!" and then leave without contributing.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Urist McUristy on November 26, 2010, 01:36:44 pm
Is this really the place for a flamewar? How about everyone just forgets about it.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 26, 2010, 01:37:51 pm
Quote from: Urist McUristy on November 26, 2010, 01:36:44 pm
Is this really the place for a flamewar? How about everyone just forgets about it.
Sorry, you're right. I've been seeing it a lot lately but I probably should follow my own advice and just PM the person.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: jdturner11 on November 26, 2010, 01:49:53 pm
If it gets moved, it gets moved, don't worry about what will be and focus on what is ;). I'm sure new players would love to know how experienced ones start their game off! No need to PM me :P, I'd most likely not respond as I don't check PMs often (I once lost a $3000 computer I won as a prize because I neglect PMs).

 On topic -

 Lately, I've been looking for areas with atleast two layers of sand, I love how easy it is to dig through/use for stock piles. I simply dig a 3x3 stairway quite a few layers down, designate large stockpiles for things such as stone and wood, then smaller for rare items (coins, gems). After I amass a lot of stone I create layers of a wall outside, an irrigation system for wells and farms, and quick 2x2 beds. Unfortunately, I get so engrossed with creating revenue and finding every supply possible, I forget to train military... which leads to imminent "fun". So I'd say I'm a hybrid in the poll's context.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Namfuak on November 26, 2010, 02:16:43 pm
Last option is the only dwarvenly option.

But it's true, for me I sometimes go straight into a mountain and make a drawbridge as protection, sometimes I go down (especially if it's a flatland), and one time I made one between where one river ends and another began, and channeled out a square of water as a moat, then made an orthoclase block wall with aboveground farms and an orthoclase block road for traders.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Zidane on November 26, 2010, 02:33:00 pm
I do four things almost every single time.

1) I dig down.
2) I make a farm and food stockpile in the first room.
3) I make a wood stockpile in the second layer.
4) I build a wall.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: billybobfred on November 26, 2010, 02:41:58 pm
I have a compulsion to carve my fort out of the mountain.

"What if there is no mountain," you ask? Blasphemy. Er, I mean. I never embark to a place without a mountain.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Dr_Pylons on November 26, 2010, 02:46:15 pm
I go the noob route.
1. Dig hole in side of hill or directly below the embark point.
2. Dig dorfitory, meeting hall, kitchen, stockpile/work areas and farm.
3. Once that's all done, I normally block off the entrance and build a meeting zone out front with an atom smasher to dispose of immigrants.
4. Start encrusting everything with jewels and generally get greedy with it.
5. ???
6. Profit.

Also, any seiges aren't a problem since they just sit out front and don't do anything since there's no way into my fort. And my population never gets high enough for any Titan fun. I'm pretty lame with it, mostly just greedy. I need dem dorfmonies.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: ext0l on November 26, 2010, 02:50:31 pm
ehh I don't even bother with wood stockpiles anymore. Wood is only used for beds anyways, maybe barrels. Everything else is made from zinc nickel or lead.
Usually I dig into a mountain to make defense easier. 3x30 entrance hall filled with traps and stuff  ;)
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 26, 2010, 02:52:08 pm
1. Design elaborate fortress
2. Create small crappy 'prefort' to house dwarves while they build the grand elaborate fortress
3. Years pass
4. 10 years later I'm still in the prefort, which has been organically expanded to house everyone
5. Get bored, gen new world
6. Promise self not to get distracted and build the true fort this time!
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Schmlok on November 26, 2010, 03:15:18 pm
Secure area. (trench and remove ramps is the fastest, if hillside remove ramps up 2-3 levels above and wall off squeezepoints)
     Cut trees in way of trench/walls, use to make first buildings/walls/beds/first tables/chairs.
Construct fishery, and food stockpiles.
Start handful of above ground farms for temp food.
After secured, dig down TWO levels to not hamper tree growth, and dig main hall/stores/shops.
Drawbridge on opposite sides of the map, make Depot.
Water underground farms.
!!PROFIT!!
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: VonCede on November 26, 2010, 04:51:56 pm
1st Spring: Gather herbs, Destroy the wagons
1st Summer: Build kitchen from one wood. If enough seed, build some farm plots.
1st Autumn: Destroy kitchen so dwarfs can build trade depot. Sell food for pick or axe (if available), start building fort.

Yes, every time.

.. maybe I need to learn to embark with more than just seven dwarfs.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Schmlok on November 26, 2010, 06:34:59 pm
Quote from: VonCede on November 26, 2010, 04:51:56 pm
1st Spring: Gather herbs, Destroy the wagons
1st Summer: Build kitchen from one wood. If enough seed, build some farm plots.
1st Autumn: Destroy kitchen so dwarfs can build trade depot. Sell food for pick or axe (if available), start building fort.

Yes, every time.

.. maybe I need to learn to embark with more than just seven dwarfs.

You should be able to do WAY more than that within just spring...
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Ashery on November 26, 2010, 09:03:13 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on November 26, 2010, 02:52:08 pm
1. Design elaborate fortress
2. Create small crappy 'prefort' to house dwarves while they build the grand elaborate fortress
3. Years pass
4. 10 years later I'm still in the prefort, which has been organically expanded to house everyone
5. Get bored, gen new world
6. Promise self not to get distracted and build the true fort this time!

Pft.

Who needs a prefort when you've got grand entryways and unused plumbing?
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Bricks on November 26, 2010, 11:22:44 pm
Quote from: VonCede on November 26, 2010, 04:51:56 pm
1st Spring: Gather herbs, Destroy the wagons
1st Summer: Build kitchen from one wood. If enough seed, build some farm plots.
1st Autumn: Destroy kitchen so dwarfs can build trade depot. Sell food for pick or axe (if available), start building fort.

Yes, every time.

.. maybe I need to learn to embark with more than just seven dwarfs.

Wood from wagon -> wood training axe?  That should allow you to start gathering wood, at least.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: rephikul on November 27, 2010, 12:57:51 am
1st spring
Deconstruct wagon, make a carpenter workshop, butcher's shop and an axe. Dig out some space then dig edge moat. Send remaining people to forage shrubs. Butcher the beast of burden and start cooking and brewing. Build an atom smasher. Secure living quarter.

1st summer
Put traps at edge entrance. Set one of the new migrant as animal trainer, one as bone bolt/armour producer

1st autumn & winter
Edge moat and traps completed, start on inner moat and traps. Miner reach legendary, set to mine some copper. Set one of the new migrant as copper amour producer, one as 2nd cook and start construction of the anti-siege engine.

2nd spring
Inner moat completed, Start on castle walls, archer posts, above ground store houses and sunberry/whip wine farms. Expand on food production and train the army. Start sending weaker dwarves as meatshields on goblin ambushers. Stronger dwarves are crossbowmen for now.

After....
Leather production, clothing production, one guy in the corner with diamonds, steel amour and weapon production. Export food and buy everything metal. Breach cavern and raise up war animals. Drain the magma sea and assault hell.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Shoku on November 27, 2010, 04:39:45 am
Quote from: forsaken1111 on November 26, 2010, 01:34:25 pm
Still it just spams the thread and does nothing, the thread is already created. Moving it would take a moderator as far as I know. A quick PM to the OP would have been ideal, as well as reporting it. No need to come stomping in, yell "You did it wrong!" and then leave without contributing.
You can get about 30% of people to admit that PMing is a good idea to begin with but you'd have to take on a real full time job to get the word out.

But anyway my fort starts with a longish tunnel in. It isn't meant for the dwarves, only the caravans. They eventually receive a nice walled in area if I want surface plants and trees- obviously no hunting. Most of the time I install some inward facing fortifications above it with a good open area so that I could theoretically shoot down on anyone entering. The fort itself if oversized for anything you could dig in the first year so the workshops just go wherever they fit until the much more mining has been done.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: VonCede on November 27, 2010, 04:52:39 am
Quote from: Bricks on November 26, 2010, 11:22:44 pm
Wood from wagon -> wood training axe?  That should allow you to start gathering wood, at least.

Bah, humbug. Only elfs use wooden tools.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Bronimin on November 27, 2010, 04:57:29 am
-
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: jaked122 on November 27, 2010, 12:02:25 pm
I do what feels right. and currently there is a titan trying to ruin my fun in my fortress. no complaints though.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: brucemo on November 27, 2010, 02:43:01 pm
I normally go for stability rather than insanity.  It's my goal to build a place that runs smoothly and is resistant to ambushes and kobolds and animals that steal stuff.

My goal is normally to wall off the entrance while enclosing a pretty large space that I can use for initial wood stockpile, farms, and other outdoor activities.  So I normally end up with a pretty large rectangular fort with towers on the corners and a narrow entrance path that has one of the fort walls on one side and its own wall on the other, and a lot of traps.  This is easiest to arrange on a flat embark.

Inside the fort itself I want to get all industries going eventually, have an underground farm, probably get a well down there, and get a powered millstone.

My last few embarks have been near a volcano, so magma for forges has been no problem.  If I don't go with a volcano I'd prefer to dig down to find magma.  The last time I did that I just built the forges down there and it wasn't a huge problem.  Other people complain about having lots of immigrants, but from my perspective that's just more haulers and more military, and it's hard to have too many of either.

My forts tend to be biased toward Z rather than XY.  I'm always worried that I'll breach a cavern before I get basic stuff set up, since I put a little on each level rather than making a giant pancake.

I generally breech the caverns pretty quickly, and wall in.  I'm worried that this will no longer work since someone posted a screenshot of something breaking a construction.  If things can break constructions now this will seriously affect my play.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: GhostDwemer on November 27, 2010, 03:14:11 pm
I build a store room and a farm, get all my embark gear underground. Then I dig a stairwell down, and line it with rooms and workshops, starting with kitchen and still, then mechanic, mason, carpenter, and jeweler. Once I hit enough ore, I build a wood furnace, two smelters, and a forge. Then I build a long defensive entryway and seal up the initial entrance.

I used to build above ground structures, including one giant hollow spike over my fort, (The fortress of CityLions menaces with spikes of dolomite, granite, and clear glass!) taller than any mountain around, but I found I couldn't deal with the mess. Nobody cleans blood above ground, and if you roof in an area, it will never get clean from rain. Citylions was a great fort, with a magma tube 12 z-levels down, but once it hit 5 FPS due to 180 dwarfs and near infinite quantities of blood and vomit, I decided I needed to do something different. Before all the blood, I had 120 dwarfs and 35 FPS. I figure I could get 200 dwarfs and playable FPS if I deal with all the blood.

That should really be the name of the game: "Deal with all the blood!" I suppose that is what Slaves to Armok: God of Blood really means. We really are slaves to the blood god.

Currently, I have been building forts with blood cleaning in mind. My entry hall is looooong, and floodable. I have a recirculating water supply running through a filter grate and under five wells, each set into a nook in the wall, with an atom smasher waiting to come down on the one space dwarfs can stand to clean themselves at the well. My entry hall leads to the corner of the map, a little valley where I've removed all the ramps down that I could, leaving only two ways in. I'm now experimenting with hunting dogs in windowed rooms as non-disposable guard animals. Hunting dogs supposedly have longer site range, we'll see if putting them in a windowed room off the main hall still lets them detect thieves. I'm also trying them behind a window behind a fortification, for ultimate protection. Fewer dead watch animals means less blood.

So, I guess none of those answers fit. I build underground, but I still build defenses. I don't see the benefit of above ground defenses. If I were growing above ground crops, I would build completely walled and roofed enclosures with no entrance except from below ground, like I build for my fisherdwarfs. I also tend to build reactors instead of above ground waterwheels or windmills. Basically, the only thing above ground on my current fort is the fisherdwarf's shack, and a few tiles of flooring covering up the old entrance.

Inside, it's a right mess. Ore bearing walls of rooms get dug out and replaced with block walls, meaning there are strange little passages and cul-de-sacs everywhere. Mined out ore veins get turned into hallways with odd shaped rooms.  I like to build vertical forts underground, where everything is in a stack instead of spread out, so the fort isn't very grand looking from the top, even inside. 

I guess my answer should be "I try to build forts that maximize FPS by minimizing pathing and contaminants."

By the way, thanks to the grate, my dwarfs are now drawing "water" instead of "stagnant water" from my wells. I don't think the recirculation is necessary, when dwarfs clean, the contaminants don't fall into the well, do they? But I needed a reactor anyway. I think I'll go update the wiki entry for wells, you need a grate in the system if you don't want your dwarfs complaining about water quality.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Uzu Bash on November 27, 2010, 03:43:31 pm
I answered 4, but it's really all of the above. The initial settling and fortification involves building as little as possible and taking advantage of the existing layout and terrain, for which you have to be flexible and inventive. Any minerals uncovered in this stage are simply byproducts, and any walls carved will remain, no matter what it's composition (Is that a native gold wall in that peasant's quarters? Yes it is, so suck it up, nobles.)

Later probing is for both resources and expansion space. If I come up with a good build plan for a given space, that will direct the mining designations. If I find a valuable vein where I don't have immediate plans, then I'll plunder the ore and adapt the space to other purposes later.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: durbu on November 28, 2010, 06:15:48 am
Quote from: forsaken1111 on November 26, 2010, 02:52:08 pm
1. Design elaborate fortress
2. Create small crappy 'prefort' to house dwarves while they build the grand elaborate fortress
3. Years pass
4. 10 years later I'm still in the prefort, which has been organically expanded to house everyone
5. Get bored, gen new world
6. Promise self not to get distracted and build the true fort this time!

5. Experience fps death due to huge prefort, gen new world
FTFM

I tend to use large halls of the grand elaborate fortress that span many a z-level for my preforts. The floors could be channeled through later on.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Naz on November 28, 2010, 10:44:11 am
I figure out where I want my water source to come from and dig a tiny hole there with a small room below it. Then I designate that as an everything stockpile, destroy the wagon and move everything inside. After that I build a secure "surrounded by walls" staircase up to a platform with my trade depot on it, remembering to have a bridge or something that can be closed to deny access to my fort. All this is going on while I'm mining out the area I want to build my farms in and the necessary irrigation and any woodcutters I have are outside clear cutting the woods and hauling the logs back inside. After the farms are dug out, the irrigation is functional and the farms are built I plan out where I want the rest of my fort to go and start digging. I usually plan my fort based around what the pop cap is. So it takes FOREVER to dig out and design plumbing for but once it's done I don't have to worry about placing something important in some random ass place because I don' have space where it should be placed. All that is during my first year.

Also at some point I usually seal myself off from the outside completely by walling off that original entry point. I do this to protect myself from sieges and titans until I'm ready to dig up to where I want my entrance to be and get traps n such built to handle anything that might come at me. A major thing to remember when doing this is that you have to build a tree farm underground and, most likely, tap magma or you'll run out of fuel and supplies before you can return to the surface.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Darkweave on November 28, 2010, 03:36:31 pm
Usually I take a bit of iron ore, flux and wood with me, embark in fairly mountainous regions and being making 2-3 steel picks and 2-3 steel axes (EVERYTHING has to be made of steel!!!)

While this is going on I scout out an entrance and get my miners to start fishing for a nice early food boost. As soon as the picks and axes are done, I mine out some more ores and flux to make 3-4 sets of steel armour so I can get the first migrant wave training for the military. After this, I make a temp-fort and wall myself in, usually just letting migrants in and and begin carving out a huge fort complete with 10-Z-high fully smoothed dining room and individual workshops and bedrooms for each Dwarf, with farming taking place in the caverns.

This is my usual approach but I've been far too slow at getting a decently equipped military up & running so usually I end up staying walled off, get bored or make a mistake with the fort design and start again.

Plan for next time: Embark with 3 copper picks, mine out coal, iron ore and flux, get 10 sets of steel armour and weapons made and 10 Dwarves training by the end of the first year. Hopefully by the end of the second year I'll have 20-30 steel-clad Dwarves ready to defend my entrance in shifts so that I can focus on my grand main fort without getting bored of being inaccessible to invaders. I'll probably wall of a section of the caverns for farming and water then focus on my entrance, typically a huge spherical cavern inside a mountain. I try and fill the bottom half with magma and have a huge winding glass staircase down to the main fort but usually get bored before then. Only just now thought of channeling the outside of the sphere, building a support then collapsing the whole lot to speed this up a bit, totally need to try that! After that I'll move to the 10-Z smoothed dining room, themed workshop areas with individual bedrooms and workshops for each Dwarf. I might even try a glass labyrinth hanging from the dining room ceiling that I can throw goblins in to and a few magma waterfalls.

Yes, half my Dwarves are usually miners and engraves, hence my failtastic military!
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Diakron on November 28, 2010, 05:44:18 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on November 26, 2010, 02:52:08 pm
1. Design elaborate fortress
2. Create small crappy 'prefort' to house dwarves while they build the grand elaborate fortress
3. Years pass
4. 10 years later I'm still in the prefort, which has been organically expanded to house everyone
5. Get bored, gen new world
6. Promise self not to get distracted and build the true fort this time!

^^^

This, but my prefort always grows like option 1
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Psieye on November 28, 2010, 05:52:35 pm
Option 2 is closest to my technique: dig down to the magma sea ASAP, start making eye candy items to sell.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: omniclasm on November 28, 2010, 06:13:16 pm
I usually do the 3x30 entrance thing...

Though in my newest fort, I made a 12x36 entrance, 2 zlevels high. Then on the ground floor I made a moat 3 squares wide on each side and filled it with water. On the second story of the walls, I hollowed them out and made fortifications to act as a pill box on each side of the entrace

then for my house structure, I dug out a 12x24 square with a 2 square path along the outside, with rooms leading out of the path. 6 zlevels high, with a giant pit in the middle, a 2 wide path on every level, and rooms lead out from the path that are 3x4.

Quite happy with it
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Musashi on November 28, 2010, 06:25:36 pm
0. Imagine a nice, elaborate, coherent design of my fortress
1. Actually embark and forget half the actual design, therefore designing only parts of the stuff to dig
2. Get frustrated because the miners won't dig the bedrooms and stock rooms fast enough, therefore un-designating most of that shit and build rooms
3. Struggle to flood a farm
4. Struggle some more
5. No, really, it takes me that long to set up a single farm
6. Watch the dwarves starting to starve and get dehydrated
7. When the caravan arrives, rage because I didn't make any craft for trading and can only give a couple things in exchange for booze if I'm lucky
8. Prolong everyone's suffering until the whole fort goes berserk or gobbos ambush us, whichever comes first
9. Reclaim and see things go much smoother because there are already workshops, beds, and a farm that only require 30 more seconds to be set up, and I can't remember why it was so difficult to make in the first place



I'm forced to do things the complicated way, or so it seems.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Corona688 on December 03, 2010, 08:37:46 pm
Now that the military isn't quite so badly bugged I've been trying to use it more, resulting in injuries which ARE still pretty badly bugged but can be worked around the dwarven way, dropping rocks on it.  Surviving a GCS invasion without recourse to cage traps is pretty Fun.
Title: Re: Startup Technique
Post by: Sutremaine on December 04, 2010, 10:59:06 pm
Quote from: forsaken1111 on November 26, 2010, 02:52:08 pm
1. Design elaborate fortress
2. Create small crappy 'prefort' to house dwarves while they build the grand elaborate fortress
3. Years pass
4. 10 years later I'm still in the prefort, which has been organically expanded to house everyone
5. Get bored, gen new world
6. Promise self not to get distracted and build the true fort this time!
Indeed. For the first three years of the fort the only things built below ground were a table and a chair (not least because I accidentally removed the anvil from the embark screen), and still there's not a single square dug out for rooms. And now I've lost another year because I forgot to turn the temperature back on, leaving me no access to the plumbing.

But it'll be worth it in the end. Everything I've carved out so far will be sealed off under a wall, and then I can work with an entirely safe cavern area and a pristine top surface.