1. Are they short?
2. Are they the dark counterpart of elves (dark elves)?
3. Is the plural of the word "dwarfs" or "dwarves"?
1. Are they short?
I read that there is no evidence recovered from the Viking Age to suggest that dwarfs were short. Of course, most of our information about the Old Norse myths comes from the Poetic Edda, written by Snorri Sturluson hundreds of years after the Viking Age had supposedly ended, so that could be said about many things from Norse myth.
2. Are they the dark counterpart of elves (dark elves)?
Dwarfs turn to stone when exposed to sunlight. It's a fact, I own a copy of the Poetic Edda. In another game, Hammer of the Gods, a 1994 turn-based-strategy game developed by New World Computing for MS-DOS, states that the dwarfs' home is Svart-alf-heim. "Svart" is the Old Norse word for "black", and "alf" is Old Norse for "elf". I also read that dwarfs and black elves may have been the same creature.
3. Is the plural of the word "dwarfs" or "dwarves"?
In the copy of "The Hobbit" that I own, it says in the preface that the true spelling of the word was "dwarfs" and that "dwarves" was only used to refer to the descendants of Thrain (or somebody, I forget exactly whom). It also said that the reason for this was explained in a later book. I never got around to reading the rest of them.
When I spellcheck this post with the Google Toolbar, every mention of the word "dwarves" is marked as incorrect. When I click on the word for a list of correction, it gives me "dwarfs".
(FYI: Tolkien got the name for every single dwarf in Bilbo's party from the Poetic Edda. Did I mention that I own a copy? Obviously he did too. Show of hands, who else does?)
More relevant to your third point, in the appendicies to LOTR Return of the Kind, Tolkien states his opinion the true plural of Dwarf is Dwarrow/Dwerrow, in the same vein as Man and Men, Goose and Geese. Although he uses Dwarves in his writing to avoid confusing the reader, there are some examples of Dwarrows IE Moria is also known as the Dwarrowdelf.
Stories change over time. You tell someone a story, when they retell it they may tell it differently. That is the nature of storytelling. Stories evolve. So it's not so surprising that the dwarves and other mythical beings we have in our stories today are different than their counterparts of the past.
Another example of change is the banshee. Banshee (bean sídhe) means woman of the fairy hill. If you heard a banshee wail, it would be the fortelling of a death in the family. The banshee was not causing death, just warning of it. Banshees in video games of today are represented as undead women who kill living beings with her wail. Quite a bit different than the banshee of the past!
quote:
Originally posted by Wiles:
<STRONG>The inherent problem with your question "Fact or Fiction" is that it is all fiction.</STRONG>
Yeah, I see what your saying. When I say "fact" I mean the way the original authors, the Vikings, created them. Tolkien angers me. It would have been great if he had made his tales about the Viking mythological world, or had created unique characters, but he just warped Viking myth. I want to preserve the original material. Damned plagiarist...
quote:
Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>
You don't believe in dwarfs? ;)I find it fascinating that stories that are centuries old are still part of todays culture. I think storytelling would have been rather dull if the storyteller just re-hashed the same old stories over and over. New takes on myth, or even incorporating bits and pieces makes for an interesting twist of an old tale.
(3rd from the left)
quote:
Originally posted by Wiles:
<STRONG>
That brings up the question - Are the stories from the poetic edda the "original" version? :) </STRONG>
I'm more willing to believe that mystical, weapon-forging, beer-drinking, beard-wearing beings are living in the mountains than that evolutionary bullshit, but that's another topic.
EDIT: I was typing when Wooty posted.
I'm not suggesting that the originals are a good idea for Dwarf Fortress, however. If the dwarfs turned to stone every time they stepped outside, that would be a major pain.
[ December 23, 2007: Message edited by: Fenrir ]
Humor aside, the typical fantasy dwarf did evolved from being Dark Elves. I'm not sure how, but I guess they both lived underground.
I know which one I'll be using.
quote:This thread is such an incredible eye-roller.
Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>"true nature""it's a fact"
quoting a game of all things instead of looking up where the word they used came from
using naming scheme specific to The Hobbit as part of your reasoning
spellcheck for a fictional word</STRONG>
[ December 23, 2007: Message edited by: Red Jackard ]
quote:
Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>'Dwarves' is more appropriate for English. 'Dwarfs' makes you sound like an idiot.I know which one I'll be using.</STRONG>
Unless you're referring to people with Dwarfism, in which case "dwarfs" is, in fact, correct and if you call them "dwarves" you'll sound like a pillock.
quote:Since you are the first person to bring them up, obviously we are not.
Originally posted by DR:
<STRONG>Unless you're referring to people with Dwarfism, in which case "dwarfs" is, in fact, correct and if you call them "dwarves" you'll sound like a pillock.</STRONG>
[ December 23, 2007: Message edited by: Red Jackard ]
quote:
Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>'Dwarves' is more appropriate for English. 'Dwarfs' makes you sound like an idiot.I know which one I'll be using.</STRONG>
Linguistically speaking, "dwarfs" is the correct English plural of dwarf. The only reason people tend to use "dwarves" is because Tolkien invented that spelling with his books, and they were so popular that it stuck.
In any case, I don't see how it matters where the dwarf originated. It always fascinates me that humans are so obsessed with the earliest version of something somehow being the most important, or accurate. That's not to say that I'm not guilty of it myself - I get angry when I see fabulous books, like the Lord of the Rings, turned into movies because they are never "right," even though the movies are good in their own way. It's just a tendency we have I suppose.
Still, it's strange. I think our dwarves are awesome, and I think the original dwarves were probably awesome too. I don't think either is more "accurate," though it can be interesting to note how the myth has evolved over time.
quote:
Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>quoting a game of all things instead of looking up where the word they used came from</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>using naming scheme specific to The Hobbit as part of your reasoning</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>spellcheck for a fictional word</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>'Dwarves' is more appropriate for English. 'Dwarfs' makes you sound like an idiot.</STRONG>
EDIT:
quote:
Originally posted by Sappho:
<STRONG>Linguistically speaking, "dwarfs" is the correct English plural of dwarf. The only reason people tend to use "dwarves" is because Tolkien invented that spelling with his books, and they were so popular that it stuck.In any case, I don't see how it matters where the dwarf originated. It always fascinates me that humans are so obsessed with the earliest version of something somehow being the most important, or accurate. That's not to say that I'm not guilty of it myself - I get angry when I see fabulous books, like the Lord of the Rings, turned into movies because they are never "right," even though the movies are good in their own way. It's just a tendency we have I suppose.
Still, it's strange. I think our dwarves are awesome, and I think the original dwarves were probably awesome too. I don't think either is more "accurate," though it can be interesting to note how the myth has evolved over time.
</STRONG>
[ December 23, 2007: Message edited by: Fenrir ]
Dwarf one cancels dig: petrified
Dwarf two cancels dig: petrified
Dwarf three cancels store item stockpile: petrified
Dwarf four cancels store item stockpile: petrified
Dwarf five cancels hunt: petrified
Dwarf six cancels fish: petrified
Dwarf seven cancels store item stockpile: petrified
There may be a great many things that you know more about than me, friend, but linguistics is not one of them. :D
In any case, as both are widely accepted, it doesn't really matter which you use. So let's stop fighting over semantics and enjoy the fabulousness that is dwarf mythology.
But alright.
......
PS. what about wharf? Is this just another British/American thing?
[ December 24, 2007: Message edited by: Red Jackard ]
Just thought I'd throw that in there.
I've read that the idea of a dwarf came from the Middle East (Or somewhere near there), where the people were shorter, darker skinned, and very good craftsmen, as they had developped iron and steel before others had, or something like that. Again, I'm no expert on the subject.
-lf and -rf, both consisting of C[+liquid]f follow the same rules of thumb when it comes to english spelling. Historically, this takes the form of post-liquid voicing (AKA partial assimilation). The earlier spelling of dwarfs comes from a time prior (possibly) to this sound change. Its not limited to "-f" either. The standard plural of any word regularly ending in -r or -l may be spelled -rs or -ls but will almost always be pronounced -rz/-lz.
In standard American English pronunciation the spellings dwarves and dwarfs should be pronounced the same, in any case.
I had something else to say. I forget.
quote:
Yes, that was rather pathetic, but Wikipedia verifies what I said.
Can I just say that this had me laughing out loud. Really. wikipedia verifies what you said? Is that really the best you have? Really, that is pretty pathetic.
Anway, I have to say I like the idea of Tolkien's Dwarves. I'm not saying they are the 'best' mythology, just the one that I prefer. If some people prefer the Norse version then there we go. Yay them. Oh, and before I forget, from what people have said it sounds like the Eldar Scrolls Dwarfs were influenced by the Norse ones.
quote:
Originally posted by Bricktop:
<STRONG>Can I just say that this had me laughing out loud. Really. wikipedia verifies what you said? Is that really the best you have? Really, that is pretty pathetic.
</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by Pathos:
<STRONG>Fact - It's spelt dwarves.</STRONG>
The plural form dwarfs has been traced to the 17th century. The alternative plural dwarves has been recorded in the early 18th century, but was not generally accepted until used by philologist J. R. R. Tolkien in his fantasy novel The Hobbit. Neither spelling represents the regular phonetic development of the Old English plural dweorgas, namely dwarrows; rather, they descend from a new plural formed in Middle English from the singular stem. Similarly, the old inherited plural dwarrows acquired a singular dwarrow.[1] Although dwarrow has passed from the language, both dwarfs and dwarves are in current use. Many grammarians prefer dwarfs, many fantasists prefer dwarves. The form dwarfs is generally used for real people affected by dwarfism; the form dwarves is used for the mythical people described by Tolkien and others."null
So there you have it in a nutshell its dweorgas :)
quote:
Originally posted by HOTMACHINA:
<STRONG>"A dwarf is a short, stocky humanoid creature in Norse mythology as well as other Germanic mythologies, fairy tales, fantasy fiction and role-playing games.The plural form dwarfs has been traced to the 17th century. The alternative plural dwarves has been recorded in the early 18th century, but was not generally accepted until used by philologist J. R. R. Tolkien in his fantasy novel The Hobbit. Neither spelling represents the regular phonetic development of the Old English plural dweorgas, namely dwarrows; rather, they descend from a new plural formed in Middle English from the singular stem. Similarly, the old inherited plural dwarrows acquired a singular dwarrow.[1] Although dwarrow has passed from the language, both dwarfs and dwarves are in current use. Many grammarians prefer dwarfs, many fantasists prefer dwarves. The form dwarfs is generally used for real people affected by dwarfism; the form dwarves is used for the mythical people described by Tolkien and others."null
So there you have it in a nutshell its dweorgas :)</STRONG>
Am I the only one that uses TOADYS and DFs version of dwarves to be the ultimate truth and measurement for the realism in all other settings including dwarves, the dwarves in DF are the DEFINITION of "dwarf", because Toady is t+o awesome to ever be wrong.
For any question about the real true nature of dwarves just ask Toady, HE is the ultimate authority on this subject.
quote:
Originally posted by Armok:
<STRONG>My vote is on dwarves.</STRONG>
quote:A cunning one?
I am a linguist.
(Okay, okay, terrible joke. But your username makes it funny. ;) )
Wikipedia is often ridiculed as a source because it can be edited by anyone and everyone. If everyone can edit it, not everything is correct, right?
Well, yes, but the same applies to everything else to the internet. The thing that sets wikipedia apart is that there are several groups of people who enforce the requirement of sources from other sites and very small groups of people who edit it for humor or self-interest. These corrections are usually blatantly obvious and quickly corrected by the majority of people who want Wikipedia to be a good source of correct information, and it has been compared to the Encyclopedia Britainica in terms of accuracy. (I think the EB has more volume per article, though, and more articles available.)
It's just that editing the wikipedia is such a petty thing most kids out there simply don't bother because there's no pride to be taken in it - Most people would content themselves by looking at shady websites or hacking into bigger, more challanging targets. There are people out there who do vandalize the Wikipedia, but such things are usually found and corrected.
Sorry, it just irks me that people disregard an internet source off hand because it's written and edited by the public. That said, the information on it should be trusted about as much as everything else on the internet, but I think I'll be visiting Wikipedia before I go off and do a google search for something.
[/veer from main subject]
quote:
Originally posted by penguinofhonor:
<STRONG>Yeah, I'm gonna have to say that Toady is my authority on all things dwarven. And it's dwarves. Or we could compromise to dwarfes. Just saying.</STRONG>
"WHAT AM I?!?"
quote:
Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>I have a few unanswered questions about the true nature of dwarfs.1. Are they short?
2. Are they the dark counterpart of elves (dark elves)?
3. Is the plural of the word "dwarfs" or "dwarves"?2. Are they the dark counterpart of elves (dark elves)?
Dwarfs turn to stone when exposed to sunlight. It's a fact, I own a copy of the Poetic Edda. In another game, Hammer of the Gods, a 1994 turn-based-strategy game developed by New World Computing for MS-DOS, states that the dwarfs' home is Svart-alf-heim. "Svart" is the Old Norse word for "black", and "alf" is Old Norse for "elf". I also read that dwarfs and black elves may have been the same creature.
</STRONG>
Well, according to norse mythos, there are three types of Elves: Ljosalfar, Dokkalfar, and Svartalfar, or Light Elves, Dark Elves, and Black Elves respectively. The Black Elves lived deep beneath the earth, and were miners and metal workers I think, and were somewhat malign. Black elves were marked by a lack of women, or a shortage of women, or at least fertility, and were believed to steal human children and take them for their own. I forget wether or not they were considered short in stature. It's probably that the current fantasy depiction of dwarves is a mixture of multiple mythologies, perhaps a mixture of norse mythos, in which the svartalfar may be tall, with celtic brownies/fairies/elves/etc. who were pretty much all very, very short (on the order of inches tall), in much the same way Tolkein merged Celtic elves, who were woodland creatures and good archers, with the tall, fair haired Ljosalfar of Norse mythology, in which elves were not known for being archers, to create the elves in his stories.
The Dark Elves lived underground as well, but much closer to the surface, in hills and mounds. I think they were thought to take things and hide them and the like if you disrepected them.
The Light Elves lived in the sky, and were the messengers of the gods, similar to angels in Christian/Judean/etc. mythos.
[ January 01, 2008: Message edited by: Lord_Phoenix ]
quote:
Originally posted by Lord_Phoenix:
<STRONG>
...with celtic brownies/fairies/elves/etc. who were pretty much all very, very short (on the order of inches tall).</STRONG>
quote:That's the way I read it.
Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>I think they became little because of Christianity's attempts to destroy old myths and religions</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by Torak:
<STRONG>You're all bickering over fucking nothing.</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>
Who's bickering, troll?</STRONG>
The last two pages. Fighting over the spelling of a fictional race's plural.
quote:
Originally posted by Torak:
<STRONG>
The last two pages. Fighting over the spelling of a fictional race's plural.</STRONG>
However, many myths tend to conflate dwarves and dark elves, so depending on who you asked, they could be separate or the same. Similiar things happened with giants and trolls. Given the two have separate worlds, though, I tend to consider them separate races. That being said, in my readings I've not found a great deal written about the dark elves in Norse Mythology, so there is easily an "official" link that has simply been lost.
Edit: Lord Phoenix, could you give me a source on the Elves being divine servants and akin to angels? I don't recall reading that anywhere; the only place I recall seeing it was Valkyrie Profile.
[ January 02, 2008: Message edited by: Citizen of Erl ]
quote:
Originally posted by Sappho:
<STRONG>I am a linguist. That's what I studied in college. Dwarf does not end in -lf, it ends in -rf. The correct plural according to English grammar rules is dwarfs. Dwarves is commonly accepted and few would consider it "wrong," but it does not follow standard English grammar.There may be a great many things that you know more about than me, friend, but linguistics is not one of them. :D
In any case, as both are widely accepted, it doesn't really matter which you use. So let's stop fighting over semantics and enjoy the fabulousness that is dwarf mythology.</STRONG>
It's cold today, I better put on two scarves.
Oh, wait, that's Gnomes.
Phase 1: Collect plants
Phase 2: ??
Phase 3: Liquor!
quote:
Originally posted by Forumsdwarf:
<STRONG>Phase 1: Collect Underpants
Phase 2: ??
Phase 3: Profit!Oh, wait, that's Gnomes.
Phase 1: Collect plants
Phase 2: ??
Phase 3: Liquor!</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>
I don't think that the spelling of any word is up for vote.</STRONG>
The spelling of every word is up for vote. How socially acceptable it is to deviate from the generally agreed-upon general rules depends on the culture. In English, we have so many conflicting rules to draw on that Bob can basically just make stuff up and be right while Alice can convincingly prove that Bob is wrong.
quote:Context, man. He was referring to the game, where it is obviously not.
Originally posted by benoit.hudson:
<STRONG>The spelling of every word is up for vote.</STRONG>
[ January 10, 2008: Message edited by: Red Jackard ]
The other half might be hundred years later when all of the dwarf decendents continued to live in this cave, mining the earth and trading the things they fashioned for the things they need. People would only see part of the culture and would claim they were more wierd than they probably were. They probably did a lot of drinking as living underground is depressing I would imagine. So I would say the dwarf legend is probably about 80% true. The other 20% is probably completely false.
We get to decide which is which.
/end